EP17: The HR-EDIA Relationship

In this episode of FARSIGHT Chats, host Farah Bala, founder and CEO of FARSIGHT, delves into the important relationship between HR and EDIA (Equity, Diversity, Inclusion, Anti-Oppression) within organizations. Joined by HR and EDIA experts Tanya Reu-Narvaez, Nerissa Morris, and Cheryl Kern, the conversation took place in 2023, and explores the evolving roles of HR and EDIA, the need for strategic alignment, and the importance of disrupting traditional norms to foster a healthier workplace culture.

The discussion highlights the critical elements of trust, transparency, and collaboration between HR and EDIA teams to drive organizational change. The experts emphasize the importance of integrating EDIA principles into business strategies to create an inclusive and equitable environment, and offer practical advice for young professionals and organizations looking to strengthen their HR and EDIA partnerships.

| KEY TOPICS DISCUSSED |

HR and DEIA Collaboration 

• Roles and responsibilities of HR and EDIA teams.  
• How HR policies can support EDIA initiatives.  

Challenges in the HR-DEIA Relationship

• Misalignment of goals and priorities.  
• Resistance to change within organizations.  
• Limited resources and support for EDIA efforts.  

Strategies for Effective Partnership 

• Establishing clear communication and shared goals.  
• Embedding EDIA principles into HR policies and practices.  
• Leadership commitment and accountability.  

Impact on Workplace Culture

• How integrating EDIA into HR improves employee experience.  
• The role of HR in fostering inclusivity and belonging.  
• EDIA’s influence on recruitment, retention, and promotions.  
• Addressing bias in HR processes.  

Case Studies or Examples

• Successful collaborations between HR and DEIA teams.  
• Best practices from organizations leading in DEIA efforts.  
• Lessons learned from failed or struggling partnerships.

| SHOW NOTES |

00:00 Introduction to FARSIGHT Chats

01:59 Meet the Esteemed Guests

07:10 The Evolving Role of HR and EDIA

12:26 Challenges and Opportunities in DEI

18:10 Disrupting Norms and Policies

25:22 Building Effective HR and DEI Partnerships

29:52 Setting Expectations in HR for DEI

30:53 Overcoming Impediments in DE&I Efforts

31:36 Practical Approaches to DEI

32:35 Defining Roles and Responsibilities

33:26 Resource Allocation Challenges

34:24 Maintaining Commitment and Focus

35:10 Strategic Alignment and Credibility

35:50 Reactionary Responses and Burnout

36:52 Empowerment and Influence in DEI Roles

39:37 Servant Leadership in DEI

42:16 Future of HR and DEI Integration

45:15 Disruption and Structural Shifts

49:38 Advice for Aspiring HR and DEI Professionals

52:50 The Importance of DEI Work

58:06 Conclusion and Final Thoughts

Connect with our guests:

• Tanya Reu-Narvaez | Chief People Officer, Anywhere Real Estate Inc.
• Nerissa Morris | Senior VP & CHRO - Cincinnati Children’s Hospital Medical Center

Episode Transcript

(00:01):
Welcome to Far Side Chats YourGuide to Navigating Complex
and important Conversationson Healthy Workplace Culture.
I'm your host, Farrah Bala,founder and CEO of Far Sight.
We specialize in leadership andorganizational development, focusing
on equity, diversity, and inclusion.
As core leadership competencies.

(00:22):
Join us in these conversationsthat aim to foster, understanding,
growth and positive change.
On today's episode, theHR EDIA relationship.
I am joined by HR and EDIA experts, TanyaNarvaez, Marissa Morris, and Cheryl Kern.
We originally recordedthis in the spring of 2023.

(00:44):
Our focus today is to uncover therelationship between HR and EDIA.
That's equity, diversity, inclusion,anti-oppression that currently
exist within various organizations.
While the roles of HR and EDIA aremeant to work together towards a similar
goal, there are archaic organizationalstructures that jeopardize progress.

(01:05):
I. And also lead to some ofthe most critical issues like
an unhealthy hierarchy or animplicit sense of competition
between the heads of HR and EDIA.
I personally love how this conversationencourages leaders to be strong
disruptors of these challenges.
I. To further grow the company'sculture and its bottom line.

(01:26):
And this is exactly what we helpour clients do here at Far Sight
to reimagine this relationship asa partnership to work together.
So as you listen in today, we invite youto consider how closely do your company's
HR and EDIA departments work together.
What gets in the way.
And what else do you think is importantto build that partnership between the two?

(01:50):
Join us on this journey oflearning and unlearning in
today's episode of Farside Chats.
Please join me in welcomingour very esteemed guests.
I'm so excited to dive intothis conversation with you.
Issa Morris, Tanya RuNar, and Cheryl Burn.

(02:11):
I'm gonna hand it over to the three ofyou to please introduce yourselves to us.
Tanya, I am the Chief People Officerfor Anywhere Real Estate that likely is
not familiar to most, but are six brandsthat operate globally in Century 21 ERA.
Better Homes and Gardens, Coldwell Banker.
Sotheby's International Realty andCorcoran might be more familiar.

(02:34):
So we have an employee base ofabout 10,000 across the globe.
We operate in over 100 countriesthrough one of our six brands.
We have a relocation business, a titlebusiness, and a strategic lending partner.
And so we're sort of the.
One stop shop, if you will,for all things real estate.
I've been with the company for 21years this year, so a very long time.

(02:57):
Prior to that I was in thetechnology sector and HR consulting.
I'll share a very quick story.
This is a topic that'svery near and dear to me.
21 years ago when I started withmy current organization, I looked
around, didn't see anyone that lookedlike me at all on many dimensions.
Won't get into.

(03:17):
A mistake in joining the organizationquickly, did some research.
Understood that I joined an industrythat was significantly underrepresented,
again across many dimensions.
So made it my mission to educateand ultimately be on a path,
both as a company and as anindustry to change the trajectory.
So with that, again, lookingforward to having the conversation.

(03:40):
I'm Marissa Morris, senior Vice Presidentand Chief Human Resources and Diversity
Officer at Cincinnati Children's HospitalMedical Center here in Cincinnati.
We are number three pediatrichospital in the United States.
We operate under three missions,education, research, and clinical care.
We are the Department of Pediatricsfor the University of Cincinnati.

(04:01):
And we have both a local, regional,national, and to some degree global
footprint with some engagement ininternational patient care as well.
We have over 17,000 employees.
And really operate under thevision of being the leader

(04:21):
in improving child health.
And so we take that very seriouslyand a piece of that is how we lean
in with regard to child health equityand really trying to make children
the healthiest that they can be.
And how do we make our childrenin the Cincinnati area and then
in the nation the healthiest?
So that's really, I. Importantto me and to us, and that does

(04:43):
lead over into our space of DEI,especially as we talk about equity.
My background is from multiple industries.
I've been in the toy industry, theautomotive industry, a little bit in
financial services under automotive,also higher ed, so working with
Ford Motor Company, Volvo Carsfor Credit, university of Miami.

(05:03):
And they are question will speak 16, whichis wonderful for the men and the women.
I have to have my March Madness Shout out.
I've been here at the University ofCincinnati for just about five years
where I lead the HR function, whichincludes our DEI and community relations
team, and so I'm really happy to bea part of this conversation today.

(05:24):
I'm Cheryl Kern and I'm the VicePresident for Equity Inclusion.
At Miller Knoll, some of youmay not recognize that name.
We were previously Herman Miller andNoll, both like signature furniture
companies globally, and we cametogether almost two years ago to form

(05:44):
a brand new organization, which is nowobviously Miller Know We are leaders
in furniture design manufacturing.
Creating that intersection of beautifuldesign with highly functional spaces,
primarily for commercial environments, butincreasingly in the midst of the pandemic.

(06:06):
Through our retail division,also for home spaces.
And if you've never visited one of ourshowrooms it would be a real treat for you
to do that because it's some of the mostbeautiful furniture that you'll ever see.
I'm new to this industry, although Idid join the company two years ago and
prior to this I had stents in othermanufacturing organizations, including

(06:28):
in aerial space in the paper industry.
I also was in the consumer productsgood industry, but interestingly
enough, my background is generalbusiness, general management, sales
management, and I came into the DEIspace about 12 years ago and have really
grown to love this particular space.

(06:49):
And so I'm glad to be herewith my colleagues today.
Thank you.
Thank you all so much.
Many things I'm excited about.
One of which is the intersection ofso many different industries that
are represented here, not just ofthe current positions that you hold,
but also where you've come from.
My first question for you isa lot has changed in the last
three years in the workplace.

(07:11):
How has the role of hr, how has therole of what we call EDIA, equity,
diversity, inclusion, anti-oppression?
How have these roles fundamentallyshifted and or stayed the
same from your perspective?
The
positive changes that I feel haveoccurred, it's increased the stature

(07:35):
of the role of diversity, equity,and inclusion in major organizations.
Certainly that's not to suggest thatthis was not a critically important area.
But certainly post George Floyd andin the midst of the pandemic, I think
it really underscored the significanceof the roles that we each play and the

(07:55):
potential impact to the organizations.
And so I think that's a reallygood thing that has occurred over
the last few years since we'rehaving candid conversations today.
If we look at opportunities forimprovement and where we could see
a disruption to the progress that'salready underway, it's that as
things go back more of steady state.
Around the globe, certainly in theUnited States, that there could be

(08:19):
situations where some of the workis paused or slowed and some of
the progress could then be delayed.
But overall, I think it'sbeen a great three years for
unfortunate reasons globally.
I oversee HR and DE and I, and I thinkthe role has expanded tremendously.
The charter certainly was not.

(08:40):
There prior to, as far as how expansiveand how critical just the people
aspect could be and needed to be.
We always worked toward this, but throughthe pandemic, the focus on people being
at the epicenter of an organization wasexponentially expanded, thus putting a

(09:01):
lot of pressure and responsibility onthe HR teams, on the de and I teams to
do more because we had to and to educatemore, thus, our leaders coming along and
accelerating our efforts in many ways,and point to our ERGs as an example.
And despite everything that we didas an organization to bring people

(09:23):
together through a really challengingtime, our employees pointed to
the ERGs as being the sole source.
That helped them get throughthe pandemic and deal with
the challenges that they did.
And so that really elevated therole that even just the ERGs play.
And Cheryl, I'll just add, youmentioned the murder of George

(09:44):
Floyd, clearly as a very unfortunatedriver of de and I being elevated.
On the agenda.
Agenda at the table in many organizations,I'm proud that my organization wasn't,
but I am proud of organizations thatstepped up and did what they needed to do.
But your point on the potentialchallenge that we're faced with,

(10:07):
that organizations commitments tothis effort fade and fizzle out.
'cause they're not being pressured tomaintain that level is a real concern.
And so I encourage everyone that is onthe call today that plays a leadership
role in this space to make certain anddo all you can that does not occur.

(10:28):
Agreed with Cheryl and Tanya's comments.
We have to make sure that our DEI workis truly and not just programmatic.
Because when it'sprogrammatic, we run the risk.
That program spades sponsorshipfor Brook program spades.
If we have not built real strategicplans and anchored those plans in the

(10:54):
business, tied them to other componentsof the business operations, it's seen
as and integrated into everything.
Was an incredible wake up call andwe can't afford for organizations

(11:16):
to slide back to believing.
It's something that there's, you know, youcheck some boxes and you've done things.
We have a lot of progress that has tobe made and it will have to be continual
because there'll always be challenges.
There will always be challenges, andwe also have to evolve this work.
As things are evolve around us, insideof our organizations and externally,

(11:40):
just being really intentional and I thinkhaving the ownership and sponsorship
of DEI, not just the responsibilityof the HR leader or the DEI leader or
the two of them in concert with eachother, it has to be something that goes

(12:00):
from a commitment at the board level.
Through to the executivelevel and then moves down to
the rest of the organization.
Because we, as HR or DEI professionalscannot do this alone, nor should
we try, it must be done inpartnership with the business.
The folk, the companies that want to goback to a steady state don't necessarily

(12:26):
understand the gravity of how this has.
If you would just reflect back onthe 10 years, the role of HR 10
years ago versus the role of hr now.
It's really evolved significantly.
I, going back to even 20 yearsago, I'll say that I brought
De and I to the company.
No one told me that we needed tofocus on de and I or we needed

(12:49):
to launch a department as an HRexecutive at the time professional.
When you think about peopleand you think about Business
de and I is at the epicenter.
So understanding how to connectthose dots from a business
perspective is critically important.
And our roles, and Issa said thatsomething really important, our roles

(13:09):
as HR leaders is not simply to carrythe weight of the world and deliver
on all things De and I, we won'tbe able to do that successfully.
Our roles are to make certain thatwe provide the right data points so
that we're driving the right businessconversations and talent conversations.

(13:32):
That if we don't do what we need to do,frankly companies will lose revenue.
They may be out of business.
That is our role today, in my opinion.
In hr, and I'll give you just an example.
We're in the housing sector andso I often, I just came back

(13:52):
from the conference, the NationalAssociation of Hispanic Real
Estate Professionals that had beenactively involved in for 20 years.
And guess what team, who's buying homes,70% of all first time home buyers in the
next 20 years are going to be Latino.
Are we set up as anorganization to facilitate.

(14:14):
All of those transactions, it'sreally providing those specific
facts, whether it's current, stateand or projections, so that we're
set up from a talent perspectiveto be successful as a business,
HR has to be more strategicin all of its spaces.
We have to look at emerging trendsand be ready to transform what we

(14:38):
do, and they have to understand thatour workforce is constantly changing.
Expect if we learned anything duringthe pandemic, we learned that the
expectations of the workforce will evolve.
They have evolved.
They change dramatically.
We.
Believe that we can be in this place ofextended stabilization in how we view

(15:01):
the workforce, what the workforce isinterested in, what they will demand.
And so I think as hr, one of the thingsthat I have in the mission for my HR
team is that we have to be championsfor the experience of our workforce.
And that experience is changing basedon our business operations, our patient

(15:23):
population, and their needs, externalfactors and the desires of individuals.
And so I think HR has to bein that more proactive space.
Yes, we have operations that wehave to run and we have standard
processes that we have to do but wecan't believe that those processes.
And be able for extended periods of timewithout evaluating their relevance to the

(15:47):
current moment and things that are coming.
And I think just with that too, if Imay jump in, Marissa, to be successful
at this in hr, you have to be able toshare the facts, push back, have those
really tough conversations because.

(16:07):
We are uniquely positioned because wesee we have a unique lens across the
enterprise an enterprise lens, andwe're many of our team members are in
the midst of where decisions are made.
If we don't hit pause or if we don'task those really tough questions in
that moment, we lose the opportunityto facilitate the right outcomes.

(16:28):
These are just really greatpoints that both of you just made.
And I was thinking about whenFarrah invited me to join this
her term around disruptors.
And when I think about what hastranspired over the last decade, so I
came into DEI in some different formsand capacities, like I said, 12 years
ago, but three years before that 12year period was when I entered into hr.

(16:53):
I now reflect back just listeningto these conversations, and I
actually came in through a disruptor.
He was a senior vice presidentthat said, I'm not quite sure
where I want to take this role.
I'm going to bring you into hr, but weneed to disrupt what's currently going on.
And it was not a DEI role.

(17:14):
It was actually interfacing with oursales teams that were seeking to market.
To diverse business owners.
So a completely different model and ifI think about what I was able to witness
as I sat on the HR leadership team.
It was really the beginning of anapproach that said, collectively we

(17:34):
have to all become stronger disruptorsof the norms and of the processes that
we typically see in corporate America.
And so that's one of the biggest shiftsthat I think I've seen in the last decade
is that there's this unified front thatit's really going to take all of us
working together does disrupt a lot of thechallenges, the bias and the challenges

(17:55):
that we actually are faced with.
Cheryl, I wanna dive in further intodisruption, and if you're willing to go
into this part of the conversation youmentioned there are norms and processes
and challenges that need to be disruptedfor us to move forward in connecting
back to the evolution of this work.
What is impeding progress?
What impedes the evolution of this?

(18:20):
I think it falls into two camps and manyof these processes are really legally
nece a necessity for our organizations.
And so if you think about compliance,you think about what we can do around
things like workers' comp, and so there'sso many governing parameters that really
have to be foundational to the work ofHR that we can't do away with legally.

(18:46):
I think it's.
The mindset that can be instilledin HR leaders and practitioners that
can become more archaic as opposedto the policies themselves, right?
And so it's that intersection ofwhat do we really need to do to
disrupt and to shift the mindset thatsays, we're not gonna break the law.

(19:09):
We're not gonna be outside of compliance,but how do we ready ourselves to be
able to meet the dynamics and needsof a shifting and changing workforce.
To me, that's some of this d thedisruption that I'm talking about,
and I think that occurs through a lotof different ways, including through
education, through personal experiences,and I love what my colleagues have

(19:33):
talked about, which is that doesn'tjust fall on us as the leaders of the
spaces that we sit in to disrupt that.
Kind of model that has preexisted, thatreally falls on everybody across the
organization to come together and say,how can we ban this one to go forward?
But I think it's mindsets that areset based upon kind of traditional

(19:56):
policies that are in place thatwe really need to move away from.
On the policy front, we will all waitto have compliance, but we also have
policies and practices that are justthe way that we've done things and that
they're completely within our control.
And today we are challenged to thinkabout those in the context of equity.

(20:20):
What does that look like?
Are we getting the outcomes frompolicies that we really want that
also serve to support the culture?
So a lot of this is also tied towhat culture do you really wanna
have in your organization and whatare you willing to do to ensure.
That culture is being cultivated, andthat does mean looking at policies.

(20:43):
And so I think as HR, we alsohave to be willing, and that's
in this space of disrupting.
We have to be willingto take a critical eye.
To our own policies and practices andwhether or not they are leading us to be
the organization that we hope to be, thatwe espouse to be and to support people
in the ways that are important to them.

(21:03):
And that can be a serious thingbecause you might find you have some
policies that don't take you in theright, they don't get you the right
outcomes, and I think you're betteroff to challenge them yourself and
figure out how to make changes because.
Chances are the negative consequencesthat is sh of is showing up
in your organization somehow.

(21:24):
Anyway, I think being curious aboutourselves, being curious about
what we can change, and then beingwilling to change and make those
cases inside the organization.
I think these are excellent points,Cheryl and Marissa that you make.
It's a topic I'm pretty passionate about.
Admittedly, I am not the typical.
CHRO that is more textbook.

(21:46):
I try to be a disruptor for that purpose.
I often have my team attempting toreel me back, our legal departments
attempting to reel me back and whenappropriate, I, I will acquiesce.
But more often than not,I'm finding that I'm not.
And it's because of exactly whatyou both described, and I'll
give you a couple of examples.
Just look at remote.

(22:09):
We're remote.
Prior to the pandemic,we were only 5% remote.
Now we're 60% remote.
Think about what that did from atalent acquisition perspective.
It forced a process to modernize.
And what that did also is open up atalent pool and diversify our talent pool.

(22:30):
I've challenged processes such as.
For positions, the extensiveyears of experience and education
requirements that were ludicrous.
If we're looking to hirethe right talent for today.
I've looked at things like evenour nomination process for when we

(22:52):
place whether it's leaders or lineleaders in development programs.
We literally, I literallyjust said to my team for our,
the program we just launched.
We are not going to havea nomination process.
We're actually gonna open itup to everyone and it's gonna
be first come, first serve,and we're gonna learn from it.
And guess what?
Every metric you'd wanna look at thatyou'd be proud of happened from a people

(23:15):
of color representation standpoint tohaving an even distribution across our
businesses and our functional areas.
And my team in HR did not wannalet go of that nomination process.
And so it takes justsaying, let's try things.
Differe, and if it doesn'twork, we can always revert that.
But in more cases than not, itworks and it is the path forward.

(23:38):
Last example I'll share,I think we all can relate.
Companies now in corporateAmerica are driving social change.
That is our responsibility todrive social change and rewind.
Years ago you talk about hr, we werein the process more of like, how do
we get through a situation without it.

(23:59):
And now the workforce is looking totheir employer to take a stance on a
specific social issue and publicize that.
So the world is aware that is thenorm in which we're living in.
And that is the responsibility whetherwe like it or not, that we have in
leading the functions that we do.

(24:21):
Issa, you said as an example, we atpolicy through the lens of equity.
That puts equity front and center, right?
Like you said, it has tobe part of everything.
Now, again, I'm gonna take the stanceof spaces that don't see it that way,
that the systems are so strong thatbusiness strategy, vision, value, customer

(24:44):
centricity, all of that lives in one spaceand D-E-I-E-D-I-A lives in another space.
And so even that question of,okay, we gonna re-look at policy.
But add in equity and thatbecomes a bigger challenge.
What is the potential of thispartnership to really lead an
organization to all kinds of success?

(25:07):
And then I'd like to talk about theimpediments as well, but let's start
with what's that ideal state atthis partnership that makes it work?
What's needed from hr? What's needed fromEDIA separately and capacities to work
together to set each other up for success?
So I think the first thing is what yousaid, partnership, whether the functions

(25:28):
are embedded or whether they are separate.
I think there has to be a clearpartnership between leaders in hr, teams
in HR and leaders in DEI and teams.
In DEI.
They have to work togetherbecause you don't want your people
caught between two functions.

(25:49):
Someone who's advocating oneway and someone who might not
be advocating the same way.
So I think you wanna have thatpartnership and define what that is.
The reporting relationships can vary,but if the leaders have trust, respect,
and alignment on strategically whatmatters to the organization and how
to work together to do it, then yourorganization structure, figure out how

(26:14):
to make it an enabler, not an impediment.
It is largely for me about mindset.
I have, I carry the roles of both chiefHR Officer and Chief Diversity Officer.
I have a Vice President of diversity,equity, and inclusion and community
relations who leads that functionvery much on a day-to-day basis.

(26:34):
We align strategically.
I report to the CEO, but he alsohas access to the executive teams.
I think if we have that kind of structure,we have to be willing to create access.
For leaders in that space.
And then also, and this is something wehad talked about together, recognizing

(26:55):
the expertise in the DEI function, justas we recognize the expertise for total
rewards professionals, OD professionals.
Right there.
This is a, there is a professionalexpertise at work here that we
have to respect and partner withand also use that to teach others.

(27:17):
So I think we teach our HR teams howto engage around DEI, but also know
that they have expert resources to helpthem and then build that partnership.
I really think at the heart ofthis, and it's a great question
at the heart of it, there must be.
Implicit trust.

(27:37):
There must be deep transparency andthere must be a thought process that
says none of us has all of the answers.
I'll give you a tangible example.
A month ago, our entire HRleadership team participated in a
diversity equity inclusion workshopThat was pretty lengthy and it.

(28:00):
Very telling for us as to theinterdependencies of each of our
roles, the significantly importantwork that we each are doing.
Fast forward a month later, earliertoday, as we were having one of our
longer HR meetings, we dove into apersonal assessment individual by

(28:22):
individual that I facilitated that heldup the mirror in a spotlight to say.
Walking out of that session a month ago,what did not What Cheryl and her team,
not what Andy, our CEO and her leadershipteam, not our chief people officer.
What did I, because change starts with me.

(28:44):
What did I, as a member of theHR leadership team personally
commit to a month ago?
And what are the tangibleactions that I need to take?
And we started workingthrough our long list today.
There's a personal commitment, butevery single member on that team that
collectively we're gonna come out ofthere with a blueprint and a roadmap

(29:05):
of collective action that we're goingto take as an HR leadership team.
I think when you get it to that point, andI'm not saying we've got it all figured
out, that really gets at some of whatIssa was just implying, which is that.
All the eagles are left to theside, and it's really, we've
got to tackle this together.

(29:25):
But that's a tangible example of how Ithink the partnership can be forged and
can actually be intentionally activated.
Yeah, I think thatcommitment's really important.
I often believe there's an assumption thatevery member of an HR organization A, is
fully committed to the de and i efforts,and B, fully capable of facilitating.

(29:49):
De and I work, and I think, I don'tthink that's the case in every scenario.
So setting those expectations of anHR function as it pertains to their
work and de and I is really important.
And also building their capabilitythrough however you have it structured,
a center of excellence, whether it's.

(30:09):
Outside or within the HRfunction is critically important.
And once you have that established,the interdependency, honing in on
that, it is critical because it doestake the intentionality of HR to bring
in DE and I at the appropriate times.
So we're not missing opportunity.
Trust, transparency, crucialinterdependencies within this

(30:33):
partnership is what the strength is.
What gets in the way?
What are the impediments?
What do we default to?
From a de and I perspective,sometimes we get in our own way.
If we only speak the de and Ilanguage, think we have to broaden
the language to integrate it into boththe business and talent conversations

(30:56):
so that there's the credibility thereis established much quicker and the
actions then follow much quicker.
Because when you talk of allyshipand all of the sort of buzzwords
that come with DEI, I think we haveto take it a step further and really
understand how to integrate a languageinto the language of whether it's

(31:17):
the business or the organization.
I'll be real grief, I absolutely loveeverything that Tanya just said, and
it's what we talk about a lot at Miller.
Keep it down to.
We're trying to make it comfortablefor people to feel that they can join

(31:37):
this journey and that they can bea part of driving the work forward.
And to do that languagematters an awful lot.
I've also, it's a personal passion ofmine, probably because of my background,
where it has mattered a lot to me.
Any organization that I've been inthat we strip away the significance
of level as we look to engage people.

(31:59):
If we don't turn organizations upsidedown and focus on bringing in people
from the bottom to help us and from themiddle part of the organization, this
work is so much harder to get done.
And so I'm a firm believer we've got tomeet people at all levels and invite them
into the work and into the conversation.
A couple of things that Ithink can get in the way.

(32:20):
One sometimes is clarity aroundwhat ownership looks like
and where ownership reside.
And if you don't have clarity around that.
Then are you in sync or areyou some somehow at odds?
Right?
Does it belong to a person?
Does it belong to a person?
I think defining your DEI team and theirrole and responsibility to the institution

(32:45):
and being really clear about that so thatthey know who to go to for what is really
important, and having an infrastructure.
So we defined DEIgovernance infrastructure.
So it's clear where that departmentis, but how other teams connect
in how they connect into theexecutive team, and that helps us

(33:06):
to move things in the right space.
One of the other barriers I think,sometimes is resources and the
decisions on where resources go.
And a challenge for some VEIteams is having enough resources,
whether it's head count.
Or whether it's operating budgetsto actually be able to weigh in and

(33:29):
do the work and make a difference.
And I think sometimes whetherthat function is within HR or is
separate from hr, there's a roleto advocate for ensuring that
we have and that we maintain.
The resources that it actuallytakes to do this work, because
that can be a real problem.
If you're trying to move amountain with an office of one,

(33:52):
that's gonna be a challenge.
And if you can allocate more resources,then how does the partnership actually
make it clear that there are supportingresources and that people are engaged in
this work along with the smaller team?
And I think to that point too, justrecognizing that the journey that we're
on a barrier often is people grow weary ofputting in so much time and effort without

(34:20):
feeling the commitment, experiencing thecommitment, and or seeing the result.
And it just takes that continuouslevel of focus and tenacity because
results and progress do come.
This is a journey, however, and so wehave to keep sharing that across our
communities so that people don't growweary and stay with us along this journey.

(34:45):
I don't have high tolerance for swirl.
I am very much to Marissa's earliercomment about making sure that we have
strategic alignment because there's somuch work and there's so many desperate
activities that could be occurring.
If we don't keep our eye on the ballI think it can lessen the credibility

(35:07):
of diversity, equity, and inclusion.
It's like it's those people over therethat have 10 new ideas every single day
and they're trying to execute all of them.
And so I do think a hindrancestill can be the perception.
That we can, that we often are notstrategically focused enough, and I think
we have to work really hard at changingthat by demonstrating that we are with

(35:28):
all that we show up with and deliver.
In the last few years, there wasa reactionary response within
organizations when the peoplestarted asking for statements and
starting asking for commitments.
Heads of DEI roles got created.
DEI committee is got createdimmediately with no access.

(35:48):
To forget a seat at the table,but any seat at the table.
And it became that space of optics,and it's almost like those roles
were not set up for success.
And so literally two years in,we started hearing about burnout,
specifically with heads of DEI,with their performance reviews being

(36:10):
negatively affected based on that.
This is a form of gatekeeping wherewe've not interrogated enough, we've not
gone into the, why are we doing this?
What are the outcomes that we want to see?
What are the resources that weare willing to invest in this?
And without that level of interrogation,without that level of inquiry, it becomes
a reactionary reaction, not a response.

(36:33):
Do you have any words of empowermentfor anyone who might be listening
to this who might have that role?
But not have agency, not haveaccess, not have influence.
What are some best practices thatthey might be able to do or try?
You have to find the placeswhere you can have influence.
Right, and I think this goes backas you were talking, the first thing

(36:57):
that really came to my mind wasorganizations have to have their why for.
And yes, there are moments in time whenthe critical need for change is so visible
that you can't help but do something.

(37:19):
And you don't wanna be the oneorganization that's not doing anything
that decided this wasn't importantwhen the rest of the world knows
how important it's, but you stillhave to come up with your own why.
So I think that's the first thing,and where organizations don't have
that and they don't have that groundedin who they are, who they aspire
to be, and what kinds of outcomesthey're trying to drive through their

(37:42):
business, then it's a shallow effort,regardless it, truth of influence.
I think if you don't have.
That natural seat at the table byposition maybe, or by reporting
relationship, then it is to find theinfluencers in the organization that

(38:03):
you can connect with and influence.
And as it relates to seat at the table,this is something I just say all the time.
If you have a seat at the table,make sure you have something to say.
Because it's not enough to sit there andbe afraid to speak up if you get the seat.
And sometimes it's not the seat at thebig table, it's a seat at a smaller table,

(38:24):
but a table where you can influence.
So I'd say find the places and thepeople where you can influence and start
there and work your way through thesystem and get to the people who will
also help to carry the message for you.
The sort of recipe that I've used.
For de and I in particular is gatheringthe data for the case for change,

(38:48):
keeping it and Cheryl mentioned thisreally focused on the top priorities,
so no swirling right, really focused.
Share the measurement and results andrinse and repeat and do that as Norris
mentioned with the champions that youcan bring along with you along the
way and have them do the same thing.
That has been my recipe.

(39:09):
It's all through data and repetitionand gathering the champions that will
help carry to a greater critical mass.
I think it starts with having a servantleadership heart if we are here first
to serve others and to be of help.
There's really not many leadersin major organizations that

(39:30):
would not listen if you said.
I just would like 15 minutes totalk with you to better understand
how I might be a service to yourbusiness unit or to your area.
I've yet to meet the leader thatwould deny anyone that kind of access.
I do think that once you would begranted that access, having some things
in your toolkit, could I possibly joinyou at one of your future business

(39:54):
reviews to learn a little bit more?
Is it possible when you're going tobe in the city that I operate in?
If you're hosting a tour to get to meeta lot of our employees that I could tag
along, you really are seeking to developworking relationships with people.
But first, there has to be a servantleadership heart that says, I'm
here to serve, not just to receive.

(40:16):
In this work, everyoneis not in the same place.
They're not in the same place.
From their knowledge andunderstanding, they may not
even be in the same heart place.
So you have to find ways tomeet people where they are.
Be curious to learn about them.
And I and Cheryl, I love that offerto just go and be with them and

(40:37):
experience what they're experiencingand see what you can take from that
and what you can bring to that.
But know that you have tomeet people where they are.
Be willing to share and educate,to raise awareness, but in ways
that people can receive it.
So everybody can't takethe hard messages first.

(40:58):
You have to start with some softermessages and just basic eyeopening.
And as you see people start toembrace things that are new to
them, then you can help them expandand encourage them to help others.
I think we also, as leaders, haveto be real honest with ourselves.
Some folks who stepped in to Issa's Point.

(41:19):
They probably knew when they steppedin could have been not the right
organization or that they reallydidn't have the skills for the role.
And I think it's okay for practitionersto also say, and sometimes this happens,
I made a mistake and maybe they madea mistake too, and to keep it moving.
I think sometimes it's just not fair tosay it was the organization or the person.

(41:45):
But it was like some marriages are, itprobably just wasn't a good marriage
and there were a lot of marriagesthat were happening post George
Floyd and some ended up in divorce.
I'd like to move us a little bit intolooking ahead from where you sit as
you think about the future of work.
As you think about relevance, wethink about the expectations of

(42:06):
the workforce changing rapidly,as one of you mentioned earlier.
What do you see as possibilitywith the roles of HR and EDIA?
Do they sit separatelyto be the most effective?
Do they get integratedto be the most effective?
Are there different possibilitiesof seeing these roles in other ways?

(42:27):
Are y'all having any ofthese internal conversations?
I've found that more integrationis better just because it.
Minimizes the time.
It forces integrated conversations andbusiness and talent dialogue, and I think

(42:48):
it really enables the interdependencythat we alluded to earlier.
It's not to say that Ican't work separately.
I'm sure there's prosand cons to everything.
I'm sure there's pros with that structure.
I just think that it's a more naturalcollaboration when they're integrated and.
From my point of view, that goes frommany other interdependent functions

(43:12):
across an organization, not just hr.
Our structure, one of the things thatI think helps us is having created
this larger DEI infrastructure and thatinfrastructure could work under different
organizational reporting relationships.

(43:33):
But what it does is defines theDEI office, its relationship
to the executive team.
It's relationship within HR andthen to our diversity council, to
our diversity steering committeesthat sit out in various departments
into our employee resource groups.

(43:53):
And that way we're connectingit in multiple places.
Weaving this fabric of the EI throughthe organization and not requiring it
to rely solely on being in a singledepartment, but at an institution level.
We need to be strategicallyaligned and clear on operationally

(44:16):
how we're going to deploy.
And so I think that's, that was animportant piece for us in our strategic
plan so that people could understandwhere the work takes place, that it
can take place across the enterprise,but that there are certain areas that
are helping to guide and shape this.
And so I think just thinking about how youbuild that and then give visibility to it.

(44:40):
Um, because I do think you have togive visibility to the team that has
a central responsibility, but alsogive visibility to the work that may,
even from a grassroots perspective,be taking place in your organization
that you can leverage and build on.
I keep coming back to this notion ofdisruption again, which obviously I
am obsessed with today because it'sthe premise of this call and I think

(45:02):
about for the future, how structuresthey already are starting to shift
and how much I think they're goingto continue to shift in the future.
I have two bosses, the CEO,and our chief people officer.
As I talked to our CEOA few days ago,she reminded me she's got 12 bosses.
She's got the board of.
I also contend I have a lot of bossesthat are low in the organization that

(45:28):
I need to challenge the structures thatsit at the higher levels to help us
to transform for the future of work.
And my mind really goes to how do wedisrupt the traditional structures in
such a way that we are allowing thevoices of the collective to be heard.
At a higher level of magnitude sothat they can help us to carry forth

(45:51):
the change that needs to happen.
I'm agnostic to structures, quitefrankly, because I've operated
in many different structures.
I think it's more about theculture and the aspirations that
you have for your organization.
I think that's reallywhat's most important.
Sterl, have you figured it out?
How do you challenge thesystems and processes?
Not to be redundant.

(46:12):
I really do think it goes back to havingthat implicit trust, that transparency.
Yeah.
Those really hard and uncomfortableconversations that really need to happen.
Yeah.
That's the foundation of every goodrelationship and that's really gonna be,
and let's face it, since the pandemic.
Associates, they will giveyou the sniff test so fast.

(46:34):
They don't wanna smell it,see it or hear that anymore.
They don't want business as usual.
They really want something that looksprogressive and that helps them to
feel like somebody's focusing on meand sees me and understands me and is
thinking about what I will want fiveto 10 years from now in my career.
We get how do we build more inclusionand we want more psychological safety.

(46:58):
One of the cornerstones of that is do wehave an environment to be able to have
healthy disagreement, to spar back andforth towards something greater than
both of us, knowing that our relationshipfosters that, and there is so much there.
The discomfort, the courage, the capacityto look at ourselves, to the capacity
to look at where we might have missed.

(47:20):
What is the opportunityto do more or do better.
Thank you for naming that.
Also an authenticity that you haveto bring to this and credibility,
competence, and credibility.
And there is, there'spersonal credibility.
There's professional credibility.
And so you have to be able tobring that, to really be able to

(47:42):
influence and certainly to drivechange and to be a disruptor.
You can't be a disruptor withouthaving great credibility.
And being viewed as beingcompetent in this space.
From the HR side, I would sayfor HR folks, I'm trying to
figure out what can you do?
Educate yourself on coreprinciples around DEI, right?

(48:03):
Understand it.
Read or watch.
Listen to speakers, but educate yourselfand begin to build your own credibility.
Build your own why.
For why you're engaged in this work,why you wanna engage others in this
work, having your personal story forthe difference that it can, that it

(48:24):
has made for you and can make forothers, can make a huge difference
in getting people to open up andto have conversations with you.
Now, I would just addthat plus you have to.
You won't succeed in this effortthat, that's my personal experience.
So lean in to understand all facetsof the business and then bring

(48:48):
your de and I expertise to that.
So what I'm hearing are beknowledgeable, have the credibility.
Have the competency as part, andthat involves the upskilling,
the education, the constant selfinterrogation, understanding the why.
Interrogating the why, becausethe why five years ago might look
different now 'cause we've changed.

(49:10):
The role that we might be inmight have changed as well.
Folk who are wanting to stepinto this space of hr, EDI.
Folk who are aspiring to be hrps orheads of EDIA within their organization.
What advice do you have?
That's one of our questionsfrom one of our registrants.
What advice do you have for younggrowing professionals who are

(49:33):
interested in HR and or EDIA?
It's a journey and it's a lot and
it's, it takes.
I think we all can attest this.
It takes a lot of commitmentand leaning in so you just
know what you're getting into.
And I think it's, I do thinkit's one of the best careers one
can be in because what's betterand more important than people.

(49:55):
The second is you have to have gritis you're going to be successful
in this space along with sayingwhat no one else will and again,
bringing those and addressing thosetough situations and conversations.
Head on
once worked for a member of a leadershipteam who he sat on our diversity council

(50:18):
and he just became eyes wide open aroundthis work and we were at lunch one day.
He said, Cheryl, I swear you couldrun for political office the things
that you have to deal with as a leaderof diversity, equity, and inclusion.
It's no different than a politician.
I said I definitely don't wanna bea politician, but there's something
to be said to what Tanya just said.

(50:39):
You have to be willing to be a littlebit of a jack of all trades to have a
thick skin and to be an awesome listenerbecause you just do if you don't have
those three, if you don't have a thickskin and you can't listen effectively, I.
This work is already very exhausting andvery demanding, but you've got to be able

(51:02):
to navigate it in such a way that youcan keep your personal health and being,
but that you can also serve all of thosethat you need to be partnering with.
I think it takes all that Tanya andCheryl have said, and I just add to it.
It takes courage.
You have to have courage.
I told my coach, you can'tdo good HR work afraid.

(51:27):
You just can't because thereare gonna be challenges.
There are gonna be difficult situations.
They're going to be people thatare difficult, and you have to
be willing to work through thatwith them and make hard decisions.
It can be really rewarding work.
And I think when you, to Cheryl'spoint, when you approach this from

(51:48):
a servant perspectives in theseroles, we're here to drive change.
We're here to lead, butwe are here to serve.
And so that has to be a part of themindset that you bring to it and know that
there will be difficulties, but there'sa lot of really great reward in it too.

(52:08):
And you can see the difference.
That you can make for people onthe HR side, on the DEI side.
And I think that's what gives you theencouragement to keep going when, you
know that you do make a differencefor people in the work that you do.
Right now, the industryof EDI is under attack.

(52:29):
Depending on where one is inthe country, our communities
have been under attack society.
The cultural conversation is changing.
Society is shifting and changing.
As you said, the people coming intoorganizations just have a different
foundation of where they're willingto start and their expectations.
What's at.

(52:55):
To do, to take seriously with allof this that you have brought to
the mindset, the rigor, the courage,the being, the jack of all trades.
What's at stake here?
So I think what's at stake is actuallybasic human dignity and kindness and high

(53:16):
regard for people and caring about people.
Regardless of their various demographics,I think we have to recognize inside of
our organizations that regardless of whatwe say about our institutional values and
so forth, there'll be a lot of differentvalues at work inside your organization.

(53:41):
And so you have to be clear about whatyou stand for as an organization, what
expectations you have for people in thecontext of being in your organization
and what's okay and what's not.
I can't change what you think.
I can try to influence that.
I can try to share other perspectivesbut I can't change what you.

(54:08):
But I can be clear about what theexpectations are for how we're going
to treat each other, how we're goingto welcome each other, how we're
gonna create a welcoming and safeenvironment for everyone who comes
here that I can be clear about.
And so I think there are gonna belots of challenges and things that

(54:30):
we'll have to face, but we have todecide are we gonna care for people?
And if we're gonna care for people,how are we gonna stand behind that?
I agree.
I think reputational risk is atrisk, if you will, based on where
a company stands and how courageousone is to actually publicize that,

(54:52):
be it internally or externally.
I often have discussions.
We're wearing the realestate business at the core.
The real estate industryis a people industry.
It's the local most, it's one ofthe local most industries out there.
Everyone buys and sells homes, andoftentimes I find myself having

(55:12):
conversations with folks and thefirst thing they say as a caveat
to a de and I discussion is,this is a really hard discussion.
This is a really hard topic.
I often think about why that is.
It shouldn't be, people are people,but if you think about it, companies

(55:32):
operate in a very different way.
And I just think that we're in a,we're in a difficult space and it's
forcing companies to do the right thing.
I
think what's at stake in additionto our brands and our reputation to
what I said earlier about how this.
There's a hypersensitivityaround watching and holding major

(55:55):
organizations accountable forall things that are ESG related.
And our people are watching us.
They're choosing where they want to workand how long they'll stay, and they're
voting with their feet, not just withsigns when they're out in the community.
And there could reallybe a major backlash.

(56:17):
I. For organizations that want toattract, to hire and to retain the
top talent into their organizations.
And I think that's one of the thingsthat I'm most concerned about is if
we let the external macro environmentinfluence major organizations
disproportionately, that we may feellike in the short term, that's okay,

(56:41):
but it's going to really have some longterm ramifications that are going to be.
Unfavorable for a whole lot oforganizations that wouldn't have
had the tenacity to stay the courseand to say, I'm gonna see this
through as part of the long game.
That's one of the things thatI think could really happen.
Certainly none of us we're civil rightsworkers, but I certainly think that for

(57:04):
those of us that are committed to thisspace, we are really advocates for social
change and impact, which was mentionedpreviously in a different sort of way.
There's a sign that I brought at anart fair 20 years ago that says, if not
now, when, if not us who, and it's oneof my favorite sayings, because if it's
not for those of us and corporationsthat are committed to this work

(57:27):
for the long term, we're gonna lookback 20, 25 years from now, and the
results could really be not positive.
Thank you so much.
I'm deeply appreciative to each ofyou for going so deep in conversation
with your true, authentic selves.
Thank you for being such championsof this work, such inspiring,

(57:49):
impactful, rigorous leaders, and yourorganizations are just better for it.
Thank you for giving usthis time, your voice.
We are taking away a lot of learning.
Courage number one.
Authenticity number three, Issa.
Tanya, Cheryl, thank you again.

(58:10):
We continue the exploration ofworkplace culture with our next
episode, belonging in the Workplaceand Anti-Racist re-Imagining.
Thank you for listening to Far Side Chats.
I hope that this conversation is thestart to future ones you have with your
colleagues, teams, and communities.
Subscribe now to Far Side Chatswherever you get your podcasts.

(58:32):
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