EP18: Belonging In The Workplace: An Antiracist Reimagining

This episode of FARSIGHT Chats, host Farah Bala sits down with DEI, HR and legal experts, Susan Seah, Hyma Menath and MJ Jaques.

The focus of the discussion on anti-racism and belonging in the workplace was originally held in the summer of 2020 during the peak of the Black Lives Matter and anti-Asian hate movements. It explores the importance of creating inclusive workplaces, addressing systemic racism, and empowering employees as allies. It also covers the nuances of racism in legal and technological fields, the role of HR in fostering safe workplaces, and the need for consistent, structural change. The episode aims to provide actionable insights into promoting equity, diversity, and inclusion within organizations.

| KEY TOPICS DISCUSSED |

Workplace Racism

• Covert vs. Overt Racism: Often racism manifests subtly (e.g., tokenism, biased promotion practices).
• Tokenism Harms Belonging: Hiring people of color for optics without inclusion undermines true equity.

Why Organizations Should Care

• Racism = Prejudice + Power: Organizations must confront how power is distributed and maintained.
• Impact on Performance: Inclusive workplaces are more successful; exclusion affects morale, retention, and innovation.

Practical Approaches

• Normalize, Organize, Operationalize (Race Forward Model):

Normalize conversations about race.

Organize by building internal capacity for equity.

Operationalize through policies, accountability, and metrics.

• Mandatory Anti-Racism Training: Suggested as essential, like sexual harassment training.
• Racial Equity Audits & Data Tracking: Use outcomes and data to assess progress and barriers.

Global & Intersectional Lens

• White Supremacist Structures Are Global: Colonial legacies affect systems worldwide.
• Intersectionality Matters: Race intersects with gender, immigration status, class, disability, etc.

Leadership & Accountability

• Top-Down Commitment is Crucial: Leadership must model and enforce anti-racist values.
• Safe Spaces & Psychological Safety: Employees must be able to report discrimination without fear.
• Accountability Without Shame: Encouragement for growth over cancel culture.

| SHOW NOTES |

00:00 Introduction to FARSIGHT Chats

00:28 Setting the Context: Belonging in the Workplace

02:06 Meet the Guests: Susan, Hyma, and MJ

04:04 Understanding Anti-Racism in the Workplace

05:58 Challenges and Realities of Racism in Organizations

08:31 The Importance of Allyship and Structural Change

21:59 Strategies for Embedding Racial Equity

36:04 Navigating Workplace Dynamics

37:03 Intention vs. Impact in Organizational Change

37:31 Challenges in Implementing DEI Programs

39:52 The Role of Technology in Systemic Bias

42:47 Allyship and Organizational Culture

45:38 The Importance of Leadership in DEI

54:56 Intersectionality and Racial Equity

01:00:06 HR's Role in Addressing Racism

01:04:49 Consulting and DEI Integration

01:07:35 Creating Inclusive Legal Practices

01:09:46 Conclusion and Future Conversations

Connect with our guests:

• Susan Seah | Founding Partner, CounselGS LLC, Seattle. Founder & CEO, The Koa Club

Episode Transcript

(00:01):
Welcome to Far Site Chats, your Guideto Navigating Complex and important
Conversations on Workplace Culture.
I'm your host, far Ababa,founder and CEO of Far Sight.
We specialize in leadership andorganizational development, focusing
on equity, diversity, and inclusion.
As core leadership competencies.

(00:22):
Join us in these conversationsthat aim to foster, understanding,
growth and positive change.
On today's episode, belonging in theWorkplace, an anti-racist Reimagining.
I am joined by Susan Sia Jaima Min and mj.
This conversation tookplace in the summer of 2020.

(00:42):
When Black Lives Matter and theanti-Asian hate movements, we're
guiding conversations aroundinclusion and belonging in the
workplaces across the United States,especially the term belonging friends.
Since we are a global listenership here,I think it's important to say that we're
coming to this conversation with a veryspecific anti-racist lens, one informed

(01:06):
by life here in the United States whererace is primarily the root of oppression.
Whereas elsewhere, divisions maybe led by caste, class, gender,
disability, and other factors.
So as you listen in, we invite youto consider what is the importance of
belonging and how uplifting people ofcolor and other marginalized communities

(01:29):
directly impacts business success.
We also invite you to consider ifyou have witnessed your coworkers
struggling to speak up to oppressiveor racist behaviors in your workplace.
How have you stepped into make a difference?
How does your organization createlearning opportunities to empower
you to show up as an ally?

(01:50):
And most importantly, how do weprotect and care for ourselves while
combating racism in the workplace?
Join us on this journey oflearning and unlearning in
today's episode of Far Side Chats.
Welcome everyone.
Thank you so much for joining us.
We are in a process of change.

(02:11):
We're in a wave and we don'tknow where it's leading us, and
so there are no solutions rightnow, but what we can engage in is
conversation in depth, in truth, ingrappling, and that is the effort.
My incredible guests, Susan Seia.
Hi Ma Minad and NJ Jacque.

(02:32):
Thank you so much for joining us.
I would love to have youintroduce yourselves please.
Thanks, Farrah.
My name is Susan Se.
I am the founding partner of aboutique corporate and technology
law firm here in Seattle.
I'm, um, also a CO and founder ofCovid Club, which is a social and
leadership community for women.

(02:53):
Uh, member of the board of directorsand chair of the Seattle Leadership Team
for Leader, a nonprofit organizationcalled Leading Women in Technology.
So thank you Farrah, for having me here.
It's great.
I love the topic and happy to be ableto just put my thoughts and insights
out there and share it with, withother people and hear what everybody
else has to say as well on this topic.

(03:13):
My name is Simon Meer.
I am the equity and inclusionadvisor to the city of San Jose.
And before I joined the city, so beforemy work in local government, I have
been working in the Bay Area, so BAbased in Silicon Valley and working
as a DEI consultant basically to check
companies and to corporate world.

(03:35):
I'm mj.
I am the director of HR for a creativecompany, as well as a founder of an HR
consulting company that helps peoplewith coaching for their careers and also
organizations build up their culture.
So for this topic, right, you, so
ladies, I would like to startoff this conversation with a

(03:58):
reflection and a question that wegot from one of our registrants.
I am just learning aboutthe topic of anti-racism.
I am curious to learn how this directlyshows up in the workplace and how
anti-racism relates to belonging at work.
I'm appreciating this particularquestion because I think we are at

(04:21):
a time when the term anti-racistis, is becoming explicit in all its
forms and the bandaid is off you.
You cannot have equityand inclusion in any.
Systemic group space without ananti-racist lens to it, in my opinion.
What do.

(04:41):
Fair looking at the questionwas, you know, how do you see
the anti-racism in a workplace?
So in order to know that it's importantto understand where does the racism exist
in the workplace, and understanding howthe root of the racism that that exists
systematically across in an organization.

(05:02):
Then from there, once we can analyze that,look at that, then we can, then you can
take all these other steps around it.
Um, I'm looking at it in the lensof being in the legal industry.
Obviously today, I'm nolonger in the big law.
I used to be in big law a long time ago.
And, uh, as a young associate fora number of years I was in big law.

(05:22):
I don't know if any of theparticipants who are on the call
today are with law firms or haveworked for any large law firms.
You might be able torelate to what I'm saying.
The interesting thing is that inthese days, more there are more
and more diverse attorneys applyingfor law school, diverse minorities,
women applying for law schools.
Yet the big, the big law firms arestill very in not actually promoting,

(05:45):
uh, you know, hiring as manydiverse attorneys as they should.
Not promoting as many diverseattorneys to a higher level position
as partners whatsoever in the firms.
And I think for years and yearsand years, that just has happened.
But because.
With the, the whole COVID-19happening where it, it, it has a
lot of greater impact on, you know,people of color as well as with

(06:10):
what had happened with George Floyd.
And then the anger that everybody hasaround that inequality of what has
happened has actually forced the biglaw to have a collaborative of effort
together to try and stamp out anti-racism.
And therefore they just recently launchedan alliance around it to collaborate.
But, you know, saying those things isone thing to say, we're gonna align,

(06:32):
have an alliance and collaborate.
The question becomes what arethe actual steps they are going
to take to make a difference?
So these are, these are interestingthings in terms of, you know, what are
steps that organizations are takingto remove these history of racism that
has happened in, in an organization.
And racism can be overtand or it can be covert.

(06:55):
I think Susan has a good point aboutyou have to identify where the racism
lies in each company and lookingat it through like an HR lens.
That could be like in a lot ofplaces from your hiring practices
to when the person actually comesin, why you're hiring that person.
I know I've worked at placeswhere people have bluntly told me.

(07:15):
We need more black people at theoffice, you know, number purposes.
And then that ties into this person'squestion about how does that relate
to belonging in the office are.
So essentially you're using themas like a token, as a number.
And that ties into belonging in the senselike, you're not, like, don't belong here.
You just need them for, I don't know, towin a client, to win a deal or something
to show your numbers for whateverreason, and they don't feel included.

(07:38):
Which is kind of what I thinkwe spoke about briefly last time
about the inclusion part of DNI.
So I think that, that, it was areally good point, Susan, about
the, you know, seeing where it lies.
So does the company have a problem withpromoting, uh, people of color or any
sort of minorities at the beginningof their company at the high end?

(07:58):
Are they, there are C-suitepeople of color there.
You know, it takes time to realizewhere the, you know, the racism.
So I wanna focus, um, aminute on the word itself.
Like the, you know, what is racism, right?
We all talk about it, we allunderstand it, we all experience it.
But I wanna submit that the reasonwhy this is really critical and why

(08:21):
organization should care, right?
Like why should, why shouldeverybody care about it?
Sure, as individuals you can care, butwhat is it that organizations need to
do and why should they care, right?
Because racism is really aboutrace, prejudice plus power.
So that's the most important thing inthis aspect of racism that we wanna

(08:41):
focus because that power can be misusedand, and kind of leads to discrimination
and all sorts of issues around that.
One of the reasons why this has becomea big movement and in terms of making
sure that organizations are committedto doing it, is that there are, I

(09:03):
would say, three levels of racism.
The individual racism issomething that we all know and
understand and experience, right?
So basically it, it is, it manifestsitself as bias, as prejudice,
as an internal manifestationof something that you believe.
Institutional racism, which is sort ofthe second level of racism, is really

(09:25):
the power that is there within theinstitutions because of the fact that
there's a dominant culture or a toxicculture that therefore impacts people of
color or of different race differently.
So the outcome, if you are of ablack person or a brown person, or,
or, or even of, you know, differentintersectionality, you have different

(09:47):
diversity, diverse identities.
Your outcomes are different from thenwhen you are a white person, let's say.
And that institutional power iswhy organizations should care.
And then, you know, the third levelis kind of really deeply embedded.
And, and that is really thestructural, you know, the roots, right?

(10:08):
It's sort of structural racism.
And that is about everything, right?
It's about our past history.
It's about what happened in this country.
It's about the culturethat we live in today.
It's about the racist ideas.
I, you know, all of these togethercompounded is really what we
are all fighting about, right?
So why we should all care in order toreally look at what the deep roots are and

(10:34):
understand what is anti-racist movement.
What does anti-racist work look like?
Terminology so important, right?
I wanna continue this.
What is being anti-racist inthe workplace, individually,
institutionally, structurally?
I would
say that in order for you to exhibitallyship or to exhibit anti-racist, uh,

(10:57):
behavior in the workplace where there isa majority culture, it's really difficult.
Mm-hmm.
You know, it is not an easy thing to do.
And if you look at a culture wheremost of the leadership is white or
is, you know, uh, there aren't thatmany underrepresented people in that
leadership structure, it's reallydifficult to, to show up and to call

(11:19):
out and to be an ally, to be inclusive,to constantly check microaggressions
and to also question leadership.
Right.
It's a, it's an act of standingup and sometimes asking really
difficult questions mm-hmm.
Which may have consequences for you.
And so one of the reasons whywe all notice that the burdens

(11:41):
of questioning or, or even emimpacting education around this.
On people of color is becauseit's very personal to us.
Right.
And I'm saying this as a woman ofcolor and also understanding that
many of us as people of color,experience this very differently.
Right.
I wanna name, for example, youknow, I am, I'm a person of color.

(12:04):
I'm from India personally, andI come into this work with my
lived experience and expression.
And I will say that being now inthe United States and understanding
how people have experienced this,I understand the experience that my
black brothers and sisters have had inthis, in this context, and I know that.

(12:25):
The black experience is much moreharder in many ways than what I have.
And that, you know, just the, sort ofthe complexities of all of this coming
into it, the nature of anti-blacknessthat is, that exists in our culture.
And certainly, you know, as a person,as a, as a person from Asia, as a
Southeast Asian, as a South Asian,I can tell you that anti-blackness

(12:47):
exists in my community as well.
So it's a very complex, layeredapproach to looking at what it means
to yourself, doing work yourself, andthen also standing up for what is right
and, and sort of have the courage.
I think I keep coming back to theword courage because it really does
take that as a person of color,especially to, to voice, to give voice,

(13:12):
to, to being, you know, to, to askthe, the really difficult questions.
Sometimes when you, you raise itto somebody who, whom you think
doing something that's racist, theywould say, of course I'm not racist.
But they don't realize thattheir actions that they have
taken are implicitly racist.

(13:34):
It's because they don't, they'renot recognizing it as well.
And sometimes it's because it's,there are not enough voices to.
Think about what things thatyou are doing could have an
effect on the, you know, racism.
And I'll give you a quick exampleof what I call covert racism.
And, and I, I'm sure it has nothing todo with the intention to, to hurt me.

(13:56):
For example, was when I was a very youngassociate in the nineties, tell you how
old I am because I, there were, therewere not too many Asian attorneys at
that time for the firm and they had afirm dinner and they put me and another,
the other Asian woman who was actuallyattorney from elsewhere, from actually
from China, they were doing exchange.

(14:17):
So they put me and herflanking the managing partner.
On the firm's dinner, and people sayto me, oh, wouldn't it be good you
have such good exposure to the managingpartner being sitting right next to him.
But you know, if you are me at, you know,it's, I, I felt like I was just a token.
I was put there becausethe optics great for them.

(14:38):
It's not because of.
Anything else other than mycolor and being a woman probably.
And so to me, I was angry, but Iwas very young at that time, so I
didn't know how to voice my anger.
I couldn't talk to anybody.
I couldn't talk to all my mentors.
I couldn't talk to the partners becausefor one, I was afraid I would lose my job.
And for another who dare to talkanything, you know, that, uh, at

(15:01):
that time, who would you raise itto and who's gonna solve that issue?
For, for, for me, obviously to me, atthat time, I didn't think anybody could.
So I didn't say anything.
But that to me is a form of racismthat is not an overt one where they say
something to me, but it's implicit inthe way they, or, or the fact that they
might choose somebody whom, you know,white leadership may choose somebody

(15:23):
who are, who are like them to do thingsfor them, to choose them for the juicy
assignments and all those things.
So these are kind of thingsthat organizations need to look
at it in detail in terms of.
What are motivatingthem to do these things?
And if they're continuing that pattern,how can they change those patterns?
And then it has to be embracedfrom the top to the bottom.

(15:45):
It has to be embraced by the wholeorganization, not just specifically
people who are assigned to deal withD-D-D-E-I situations or DI issues.
It has to be embraced entirely bythe whole organization leadership
all the way down to the bottom.
That's the way I look at it.
Folks, Susan Hama mentionedlike they're from Asia.

(16:06):
I wanna touch on like theimmigrant aspect of racism.
I think, of course the experience ofbeing black in America is different
for them, but I also think there'sa very profound racism against.
Immigrants in America as well, especiallyif you're from a black country,
but also from any country of color.
I've seen it happen all the time.
There's another layer of how peopleare treated, I think, in the workplace,

(16:30):
whether that's the challenger intelligenceor because you can't speak as fluently
as them, they think they can, youknow, say things to you on a different
tone maybe that they may not say tomore of an American person of color.
So those are, are.
Situations are different.
I, I see like the closely related kind ofracism that happens there with immigrants

(16:50):
of color, but I think it's importantto say that my family is not from here.
So I hear it all the time fromdifferent people I know, and I see it.
So I just, I, I wantedto bring that point up.
Also, one of the people who respondedto the fake quote thing, I wanted to
mention that I, I completely agree.
And there's been so much, it's so manybrands, so many companies who've been

(17:11):
doing this and just, like you said,putting up the, the blackout Tuesday
or putting a hashtag or putting outone statement and then that's it.
You know, I think in order to an ally,it's more consistency and to show
what you are really doing in the work.
'cause it doesn't happen overnight.
We're not looking for people to just say,okay, like, this is what's gonna happen,
and then it's gonna happen next week.

(17:32):
You know, I think it takes time tocultivate a culture of anti-racism,
but posting something one timeand never following up again.
Saying, Hey, remember that bigthing that happened in 2020?
Like, I think that's what we're gonna see.
To be honest, a lot of companies, youknow, forgetting that they're saying
they're allies now, and I'm hoping that,you know, 2021 when we can look back at

(17:52):
this, I hope that there's change thatcomes along with all these people who are
saying they're, they will be our eyes.
Thank you.
I wanna name a couple ofthings that I'm hearing.
One is anti-racism in the workplace.
Being a way to belonging isnot an American construct.

(18:12):
This is global.
As an immigrant who identifies as PersianIndian, now American, I completely agree
in terms of the immigrant lens to this,but also that we are, there is a white
supremacist construct and structureunder which societies all over the

(18:32):
world have been conditioned to exist.
My personal lens has been throughthe British colonized lens in
terms of education, in terms offamily, conversation, society,
et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
And then coming in here into the UnitedStates as a student and having gone
through every immigration status froma student to a citizen, which is its

(18:54):
own thread of privilege by the wayof whe when is it okay to speak and
get on the streets to protest withoutworrying about what might happen
to your immigration status and whenis it okay to be that drum beater?
Right?
So I wanna name the intersectionalityof this and the global element of this.
The other thing that I'm hearing thatis important to name, 'cause we're

(19:16):
talking about power, we're talkingabout courage, we're talking about
the structural systems in place thatneed to change and we need to name,
acknowledge and start with the fact thatthese are white supremacist structures.
There is no debate about it.
That that is our starting point.
What do you think about that?

(19:36):
That's absolutely true, and which is whyit's really, really important and helpful
for white allies to step up, right?
Because we are seeing thesystems of power mainly are
controlled mostly by white people.
And so why, why the movement is therewhere people we're coming together
as a people and you're recognizingthese structural, uh, inequities and

(20:01):
perhaps bringing solutions to it.
It's really important for white peoplewho are in positions of power to, to
take also and seize this moment, right?
And be there with people whoare struggling to push this
moment towards something morethan just a flash in the path.

(20:22):
The more we think about it in structuralterms and the more we think about
solutions in structural terms, Ithink we have a much better chance.
Of identifying and removing barriers.
Then looking at what signs of, youknow, about the waterline, right?
If you look at the iceberg analogy, whichis the most common one that we do talk

(20:44):
about in, you know, when, when talkingabout bias, is if you are only focused on
what you see about the waterline, whichis unconscious bias training and, you
know, leadership and, and all of that.
And if you don't go and understand what'sbelow the waterline, which is to do with
our experiences, our emotions, our senseof wellbeing, the trauma that people

(21:06):
have, you know, all of those hidden depthsthat's there below the waterline, like
that's where we need to find the fixes.
And I would submit that that's, that'sthe reason why we haven't so far
seen that much of a needle movementchange at all in this, in this aspect.
Even though organizations havethrown money at this, right?

(21:28):
There has not been a dearth ofeither unconscious bias training in
organizations or leadership training.
I mean, you know, I, I'm a consultant.
I have done this for the last,you know, eight or nine years, and
really the needle hasn't worked.
And so it's really behooves us to us,you know, what is the point of yet
another training program or yet anotherunconscious bias program, or yet another

(21:51):
conference to talk about this when wereally don't know whether any of this
is actually moving the needle or not.
Mm-hmm.
Um, I'll pause there and say thatI did have my aha moment working
for in San Jose, and I'll come tothat, but I would love to hear what
other people think about in terms ofwhat's happening currently in, in the

(22:11):
corporate world or in any organization.
What has worked, whathas, what has not worked.
I think that definitely a good point.
You know, being in HR and workingwith companies to develop programs
like this, it's going back to whatI keep saying, the consistency.
You know, you'll have the company say,oh yeah, let's just do it this one
time, but then the next year or the nextquarter, you never hear about it again

(22:36):
because they don't give enough of thatbudget for that consistent training.
When someone new enters the company,what kind of training are they getting?
You know, it has to be a consistentamount of these kind of unconscious
bias or whatever developmentprogram you wanna put in.
I think that's definitely oneof the problems with that.
It's just so they can like check off abox Right now is what I'm seeing, and

(22:58):
it's not everyone, but a lot of companies.
I mean, these are things thathave been going on for so long
that I think you're right.
The needle should havebeen moved a long time ago.
I also wanna say like, peoplewho are white and do run, these
companies are super scared of whatto say and how to handle this.
And they don't wanna say the wrongthing because we're kind of living in

(23:18):
like a cancel society a little bit.
So, uh, they don't knowwhat to do and that's fine.
You, if you're, um, a white leader andyou don't know, I think you should seek
out help from professionals like Kama,from Farrah and kind of see what, what
you can do to build that slow structureof anti-racism in your organization.
What I don't like is when sometimesthese people in these positions of

(23:41):
power find the one black person or oneperson of color and the company and
saying, Hey, like, you know, you wanna,you wanna do this and think that's
being inclusive, but that's honestlybeing a little bit disrespectful for
you to think, you know, asking themthings like that out of nowhere.
That makes sense.
I'm curious to see what everyonethinks about being selected
that way in the audience insteadof maybe having, you know.

(24:04):
Encompassing, like safe place to kind oftalk about those kind of things instead
of just, Hey mj, and you wanna wannatalk about this since you're black.
That kind of thing.
Those of us who are in positionsof power who are not white also get
subed into the traditions of whitesist culture norms, meaning that this
culture isn't limited to white people.

(24:25):
And I think that's a little bit of what,what Farah was referring to earlier that
and, and which I completely agree with.
Like we, and I can tell you frommy personal experience that I too
come from a colonized country.
So there's a colonized minded work here,and we are living in a culture that is
very white supremacist, so it's not as.

(24:45):
We as a person of color, arefree from bias either, right?
Like those of you who've taken theimplicit bias test, the Harvard, uh,
project, implicit test will know that allof us have a sense of, you know, of bias.
But what I also want to talk about,you know, in, in a, in a more
serious aspect, is that I will alsoquestion the term implicit bias.

(25:08):
In some ways, I find that it'sa cop out, it's a way of saying,
oh, you know, it's all implicit.
We are all biased.
And so, you know, this issomething that we all have.
And so let's not, that there'sa sort of an implicit sense of
not taking responsibility for itsomehow because it's implicit and
there's nothing you can do about it.
It's unconscious.
So I would also kind of challenge that.

(25:30):
What if we, what if we substitutethe word unconscious bias
and call it discrimination?
Instead of saying it's unconscious bias.
Let's name it by the impactthat a bias produces.
Let's call it discrimination andthen let's all be called into,
into question for anything thathappens that is discriminatory.

(25:55):
I wanna reframe somethingthat we're talking about this
needle not moving, right?
We've been doing all of this work, andthis is coming from a very frustrated
professional over the last 10 years who,who considers not her ability to move a
needle, but has now started questioningor wondering or getting curious about

(26:17):
who is blocking that needle from moving.
Because we've been talking about theneedle moving for a very long time.
We have been talking about thebusiness case of diversity and
then DNI and then DEI and now DEIBfor a very long time, decades.
And so the reason this is notmoving is because it is being

(26:37):
blocked consciously, unconsciously,subconsciously, systemically.
How do we address that?
And I think that I wanna tieinto the leaders who are nervous
and scared right now because ofthe potential cancel culture.
I'm a huge proponent ofaccountability without shame.
Okay.
How do we move that needle?

(26:59):
How are we able to hold whoever isblocking that needle from moving to
a higher standard of accountabilitywithout the shaming happening?
Without the canceling
happening?
I think it just depends onthe organization and the brand
or whoever we're speaking of.
I, I think that I, fortunately for mycurrent agency that I'm at, you know.

(27:20):
They are different because they, whenI first was going through this process
with them of interviewing, they admittedlike, you know, this is where we're
at right now with diversity and withD and i, but we don't wanna be here.
We want someone to help us.
We want to be better because,and, and I just value that so much
because you, honestly, you don't hearthat, especially in Creative Yard.

(27:41):
It's more, like I said, a numbers gamesometimes it was a breath of fresh
air during that time and I said, youknow what, this is where I wanna be.
'cause I can then help change habit.
And I will say, if you have thatkind of support, that structure,
that room to grow, I think, youknow, that's what HR is there for.
If you don't have a DNI team, orthat's what HR and A DNI team or

(28:04):
DEI team can work on together.
But if you don't have support ofleadership, nothing can get done.
Yeah, I completely agree.
Without.
The stakeholders and, and the people whohave power in the room really sort of
embracing this and leading this charge.
It's really hard tosee any of this happen.
Now, having said that, currently forexample, I'm right now in the city

(28:28):
of San Jose and I would say thatthe public sector, and you know, in
government, I am seeing some reallyinteresting changes and you know, sort
of comparing it with the private sector.
I would say that the private sectordoes have quite a lot to learn from
the public sector in understandinghow to do the racial equity work.

(28:50):
So while, while I'm not, you know,for a moment saying that this is all
sorted out in government, you know,which is, which is not the case at all,
but there's enough of a movement ingovernment where nonprofits, you know,
like race forward and you can Googlethem and you know, if you like, you can
send you links, the Government Allianceon Race and Equity, which is called ge.

(29:13):
There are other nonprofits whoare actually coming together
and training people within theseorganizations, within organizations
to, to first of all understand whatis it that we're, we're up against.
And then.
Providing methodologies andtools to help us deal with this.

(29:34):
So one of the methodologies, which Ireally try and use and is part of what
I do in San Jose in the work that Ido, is how do you really embed racial
equity work inside organizations?
And so one of the methodologies isnormalize, organize, operationalize.
And some of you might have heard about it.

(29:54):
And so this is not my methodology, so Iclaim no credit, but this is something
that we use, at least those of uswho have worked with Race Forward.
And what that means is, first of all,you have to normalize conversations
around race inside your organization.
So if you don't know how to talkabout race amongst everybody in

(30:15):
the organization, there's justno way we are going to get to
actually doing something about it.
So really having.
And that's, uh, an extremelydifficult thing to do if the
organization is not prepared to do it.
So having difficult conversations,embracing, being uncomfortable, kinda
wading into these waters has to happen.
If you don't want to be uncomfortable,then this is not the place for you, right?

(30:39):
Like, there's just no way can happen.
And that's a critical part of thejourney is to sort of wait into
it, have those conversations.
And the second is organize, which is howdo you build the capacity to do this work?
So it's not something that can happen.
Just because all of us believeor want it to happen, the

(30:59):
intention is just not enough.
How do we, just like any other innovationor, you know, better management practices
or whatever it is that you wanna seein an organization, racial equity
should be taught about just like that.
What are some really rigorous disciplinemethods of, of bringing racial
equity work into an organization?

(31:22):
Right?
So.
So looking at how to organizeand how to build momentum
and capacity to do this work.
And then the operationalizepiece, which is how do you then
institutionalize this work, right?
So how do we just not start from justkind of doing a bunch of workshops,
doing, you know, having a set of toolsand methodologies and saying, okay,

(31:43):
this is what done, then let's go home.
But how do we actually use thesemethodologies and, and apply
it inside the organizations?
And by that what I meanis how do you measure it?
How do you measure it and how doyou know you are making progress?
Mm-hmm.
And
how do you know you're making progressis by looking at outcomes and, and how

(32:04):
do you look at outcomes, looking at data.
Mm-hmm.
So, you know, there's a wholelot of issues to unpack, but
there are very disciplined andvery successful ways of doing it.
And I, I really hope that, you know, thecorporate, corporate world, corporate
America would, would kind of embrace someof these measures because, you know what?

(32:25):
We really need some, some good, youknow, I'm trying not to swear here.
We really need some shitto happen, you know?
Yes,
yes.
Definitely the, the whole topicabout racism, you cannot tiptoe
around it in the organization.
It has to be forefront.
It has to be a consistent commitment todeal with racism within the organization,

(32:50):
recognizing it and make, making surethat hopefully you getting all the
stakeholders to be able to agree thatit's an important theme that they need
to, to address and they need address now.
Time.
I think all your, what you have saidjust now about all the various, you
know, the way you broke it down intoorganization, institutions, I think
those are great because these, thesegives you concrete things that the

(33:13):
organizations can start looking at.
People can start looking at how dowe start addressing it Because when
they look at it, they're thinking,how do we even address this issue?
And, but there always, there aremethods to doing this in trying to
help move the, the needle forward.
So, so I think that was great.
There's certain words in HR that'slike zero tolerance sexual harassment.

(33:34):
I know in California and New YorkCity, it's mandatory now for every
company to give their associatessexual harassment training every year.
And I think somethinglike that should be done.
I know it's, it's another training,but like it's showing how important
sexual harassment is to our culture,and I think racial inequities need
to be treated the same way and havelike a zero tolerance policy as well.

(33:57):
It's a big thing, so I think we startto make it as important as other things.
Then we'll start to see thenormalization, the organization think
that hormones is discussing right
and safe for people tovoice their concerns.
The organization, I think that's avery important, if people are afraid
to speak up because they feel thatthey're gonna get bu against, you

(34:17):
know, just like a whistleblower, theremust be protections built around them
so that they can't speak about itso that things can be done about it.
But I think that's absolutely, uh, true.
What I do when I'm, um, engaging witha client right now in my work as well,
is that I have one-on-one officerin a one-on-one meetings with senior

(34:39):
leadership, especially senior whiteleadership, and I have one-on-one
conversations where it's a completely safespace, it's confidential, and that is a
way for me to influence this conversation.
And it's a way for, for thesenior executives, especially
white senior executives, tohave that conversation with me.
And it's a learning process for them.

(35:00):
So they're not afraid to askquestions because they know
that that's a safe space, but wecan engage in a productive way.
I have found those spaces to be extremelyproductive because in an organization,
right, especially in, you know, we area capitalist system and there's just
no taking away from the fact that.
This is an economy that isbuilt on profits and shareholder

(35:23):
value and all of that.
And so if you're looking at a seniorleader whose primary responsibility is
to shareholders, whether we like it ornot, in that situation, there are so
many things that are on top of mind.
And racial equity is simply not like,let's, let's face it, between profits

(35:45):
and racial equity, they will pickprofits every single minute of the day.
Mm-hmm.
And so how do you influence the system?
Being in the system?
You can, you just cannot sort of burnthe whole thing down and start afresh.
I mean, we could do it, butthat's called a revolution.
We're not going to havethat conversation now.
But if we wanna work within the system,it's really also about looking at

(36:10):
how to influence people and how tobring sort of lead people to water.
And so many conversationsthat I have tend to be.
Sometimes very confrontational, verysometimes just a learning process.
And sometimes it's a learning process forme to understand what are the difficulties

(36:30):
that a person as a leader has, whichI can then go back and think about and
come back with a different perspective.
Um, so it's very much a sort of 10balls in the air and, and kind of
juggling a lot of different things,which is the way to, to do it because
we we're doing this in the real world.
I wanna connect a few things hereto such a great conversation.

(36:53):
Normalize, bring people along,influence people within the system,
and we gotta make shit happen.
Right?
And as from my role as thatoutside eye consultant going into
organizations, one of the thingsthat Id have noticed over the last
10 years is intention versus impact.

(37:15):
Intention was the same.
We need to do better.
We need this training.
We do the training, two yearslater we are back and the r and d
is the same, the numbers are thesame, the dysfunction is the same.
I had this experience where I was ina client meeting early last year and
this was a law firm and I was blownaway by the new, what I considered

(37:42):
having, you know, been with law firmsfor a while, new vocabulary that I
was hearing from the client and I waslike, oh, this is gonna be exciting.
We're actually gonna be able to do more.
We're actually gonna beable to name some more.
And we designed this program, we dothe pilot, and all the notes that
come back are, oh, this might be,you know, this might make someone

(38:06):
feel a little too uncomfortable.
Or, you know, we need to easeup on this because we don't want
people to feel attacked, et cetera.
Messaging that we have heard in the past,I've heard in the past I on that, so.
My understanding is that in workspacesterminology is archaic, is living in an

(38:27):
archaic world where racism, anti-racist,these terms mean a personal attack.
And we have moved way past that.
Abram kindy, the African Americanscholar and researcher, he has
this great analogy that he shareswith Renee Brown on her podcast.
Having a racist behavior doesnot make you a racist person.

(38:52):
You can be, you can claim to be ananti-racist and still present with racist
language and phrasing and behavior.
Mm-hmm.
And, and Brene Brown asks, howdo we, how do we call in people?
How do we make that change?
And he said, it's as simpleas it raining outside.
You walk out without anumbrella and you are drenched.

(39:15):
And I just come up to you and say, Idon't know if you know, but you are wet.
And then the responsebeing, oh, thank you.
I didn't know that I was wet.
That is that normalization that I believewe are talking about here on this call.
But that is not how structures,institutional, individual, and structural

(39:36):
are seeking about this terminology.
How do we move that, dragthem kicking and screaming?
I mean, if organizations don't thinkthat this is something that needs
to change, then there's no help.
Right?
But I do believe that because of thethings that have been happening, and

(39:56):
I'm, I'm based here in the valley,in, in Silicon Valley, and just
looking at just the ecosystem in tech.
So looking at just that system and lookingat what has happened in the last few
years given the debacle with the electionsand Facebook and given, you know, face
recognition technology and given thealgorithms that are, that are, you know.

(40:19):
Are causing all kinds ofissues with respect to the
flawed data that's being used.
So for example, the predictive analyticsthat is very popular here in the valley
with tech companies for, for example,the criminal justice system, right?
So if you're testing a predictiveanalytical model for criminal
justice system to find outwhere can crime occur, right?

(40:42):
If you're, if that's the systemthat you're looking, you're doing
research to create a product,you are using profiling data.
So that's the data that you'reusing to train your systems to
understand what is the predictivenature of where crimes can happen.
So if there's nobody there to questionwhy, why are you using this data and

(41:05):
what kind of data are you using, there'snobody in the room with that perspective
who can ask that question, which then.
Creates products that are goingto disadvantage people of color.
Because turns out that forpeople of color, the face
recognition system fails 33%.
Right?

(41:25):
So I ring up tech as an example becausethis was an industry that did not think
about it as a problem at all, right?
People were only interested in gender,in, in looking at, you know, how to
bring more women to leadership positions.
I say that because I'm here and you know,work that I used to be doing is around.

(41:45):
Gender inclusion and havingmore women in leadership.
And now given everything thathas happened, there's much
more awareness of the fact thatsomething needs to be done overall.
So it's not just about the numbersthat they publish because the
press is asking them what's the,what's the percentage of diverse
people in your organization, right?
So there's a lot of press in demanding,like what, where are the numbers?

(42:10):
Right?
So that's one.
And the second process now is whatkind of products are you putting out
and why is it most of the products,or at least the products that that
many of us are hearing about areso disadvantaging people of color.
And so you can see a pattern here.
And I do believe that this movement andthis tsunami of, of these kinds of news

(42:33):
items and issues that are happeningare going to impact organizations.
And so either drag them,kicking and screaming are maybe
they will go out of business.
And I'm an optimist,so that's what I think.
Mm-hmm.
I wanna add a layer ofcomplexity to allyship.
So mj, you're talking about howorganizations speak about, here are

(42:54):
issues we care about, and we are goingto do things to make that statement.
And I'm looking at it asthe human body's immunity.
The human body's immunity iswhat I consider work culture.
It's the, it's the day-to-day.
What are we putting in, how and what.
What's that discipline of our intake?

(43:15):
The vitamins that we take are thetrainings, those special programs,
our ERGs, employee resourcegroups, business resource groups,
um, DEI initiatives, et cetera.
How can we ensure that the immunityis still conscious, healthy?

(43:39):
Inclusive.
Even with that, those vitamin reminders,number one, two, what are the chances
that the work culture, the immunity dropswhen there is no intake of a workshop?
So to give you an example, this is a truestory that has happened to someone I know
who is in the essential worker industry.

(44:00):
Their company had a hugeBlack Lives Matter statement.
Their local office had a hugegathering talking about it.
And this office is not the mostclued in, in terms of levels of
privilege, in terms of vocabulary.
So this office wants to be allies,but not having done their own

(44:23):
education and analysis around it.
So what ends up happening is this personI know who identifies as Asian American.
Is called into a team meeting by theboss who is a white woman and the rest of
their team, the rest of the team involved.
The black woman, a Chinese person,immigrant, and I think one or two
other white folk, and this boss tellsthe black person, what do you think

(44:48):
about everything that's happening?
Black person shares what they think aboutwhat's happening and boss tells black
person, thank you so much for sharingwhat you did, especially since you are
the only person of color in this group.
I'm very concerned about well-intentionedfolk, whether inside an organization,

(45:09):
whether consultants wanting to dothe right thing and not knowing
how what they think they are doingis actually perpetuating systemic
racism.
I mean, that story,that's like a typical day.
I think that happensoften, especially because.
There probably is one or two blackpeople and like organizations

(45:32):
like that, you know what I mean?
And, and you said thisis essential worker.
So even more surprising.
So your first question was, how canwe do this without the vitamins?
Right.
I think for your, for the firstpoint, I think it is hard to
sustain without the vitamins.
If you have people who think they're,think they're well intentioned, but say

(45:54):
things like what your story just said.
So that part, it's like they needthe vitamins because they are
just losing nutrients every day.
Like, you know, so if in, in thatcase, like we can get back to that,
but for those reasons, maybe wehave leadership take those vitamins.
But in terms of a day to dayrunning organization, we have to.

(46:14):
Or we need to create normalcy.
And, and that's the way youbehave in the workplace.
If you're a service industry, yourclients, your customers, you know what
people see from leadership every day.
They're the way they speakabout what they wanna do.
If you have, let's say youneed to hire somebody and the
leadership says, you know what?
Make sure you post it on thatsite because I wanna get more,

(46:37):
um, diverse groups of people.
Little things like that, if thatconsistently starts to happen and, and
leadership starts to showcase a moreopen mindset of like who they want in
the office and how, how they acceptpeople who come in maybe for interviews.
And, you know, it startslike little things like that.
That's how you can then sustaina culture without the vitamins.
It needs to start top down all the time.

(46:58):
And I think that's a way ofdoing it without the workshops,
without all those kind of things.
But I do think that vitamins areimportant for at least the top
management because they're the one that.
A, have to listen to the feedbackof whatever people are saying and B,
like make the final, final decision.
Unfortunately, even if the wholecompany said This is what we want,

(47:19):
if the leadership or C-suite says,oh, we can get back to that in
another quarter or next year, youknow, I think that's the problem.
It comes back to who's in charge ofthe company and who's, you know, being
held accountable for these things.
And sometimes people think they'resaying the right thing, like what
you just said about this essentialworker, like unnecessary, like, I don't

(47:39):
even know why they have to say that.
Like it's so obvious, like therewas another person of color.
Didn't have to point that out.
And I think everyone knows when they'rethe only black person in the room, always.
Mj.
I think some of the things I was thinkingabout it was maybe this person said, well,
not ex excuse whatsoever, is because theyhaven't been educated in the fact fact

(48:00):
that racism isn't just person of color.
That doesn't mean black only.
There could be many other.
People of color.
So organizations these days isvery common in organizations to
have sexual harassment trainings.
And everybody in employee has to gothrough a sign off on it or InfoSec
security type sign off on it.

(48:21):
Why couldn't we have organizations, youknow, have something like this where it's
an education around what does racism mean?
What does it mean to be mindful aboutthings that are race, racist actions,
racist words, things to, to be consideredin terms of anti-racism commitment.
So having it as a formal program, I, Idon't know if organizations does this.

(48:45):
I, I haven't reallyheard a lot about that.
But having something likethis whereby then leadership.
Themselves have to gothrough these trainings.
And then from there, everybody,everybody in the organization has
to go through these trainings.
And then in that way,the awareness is there.
And once the awareness is there, maybenot necessarily that it will stamp
out everything, but at least it willget some, some mindfulness about this

(49:08):
issue going.
It speaks to what Hyman's point fromearlier about the accountability
piece, the measuring, right.
How are we measuring this?
How are we measuring this with bringingon the vitamins and how are we measuring
how we're doing without the vitamins?
So we're talking a lot about,it has to come top down.
We had a comment here when Isuggested to a white male, CEO,

(49:30):
he mentor a woman who was Asian.
He said, no, I want to mentor areal minority, someone who is black.
Now we have another.
What do you say to A CEO who thinksthat racism will never change?
Yeah, because of you, comments like that.
I mean, it, it depends right,how vocal this person wants

(49:52):
to be in their organization.
Um, if a CEO said that to any averageemployee, what can that employee say
without feeling threatened or kindof like what Susan said about having
that safe place without retaliation?
If you do stand up and say something toyour ceo, I think you should, but also,
you know, if a CEO e says that we, wekind of see where he lies, what spectrum

(50:17):
of the anti-racism he's laying in.
So, I mean, if it was me as an HRprofessional, I would say, I think we
mean that unconscious bias training.
Were you
more, as Jaman said,discrimination training?
Very training,
yeah.
Anti-discrimination.
Yes.

(50:38):
Unconscious bias to, I'm just point.
It's when you have, you know, leaderssay something so blatantly inappropriate.
There's just not a whole lot you can do.
And I wanna also point out that a lot oftimes it actually falls on people of color
or who are sometimes at the receivingend of, you know, comments like this.

(51:03):
Um, and there is a consequencefor people of color to sort of say
anything or be that courageous voiceand the burden should not be on them.
Why should the burden to educatethe CEO fall on other people?
What does that say about, abouta system where the perpetrator is
not going to be held accountable?

(51:26):
Unfortunately, thatis, that is the system.
And so unless you have.
Checks and balances.
And unless you are able to havethat training and build that muscle,
you just simply cannot do the work.
Like just through the intention.
You have to have the capacity,you have to build the empathy.
So it's all of that together through whichyou can do the work and not just by saying

(51:50):
something or, so there's just no answer toto that question other than to say that,
you know, just with intention or just bysaying you want to do something is just.
Not going to actually work out, whichseems very obvious, but there, it's
wrong.
And I think if that CEO said thatto somebody and you know, the person

(52:11):
wanting to respond, I don't know if thisperson is black or Asian, but usually
when a black woman especially, or ablack man kind of defend themselves in
the workplace, they're, they're seenas aggressive and, you know, we're
told, you know, calm down, relax.
Those kind of words always come out whenyou're just speaking up for yourself

(52:31):
and there's not being aggressive.
Like, that's just us showing passion.
And I think that I, I just had to sayin that point, like, I, I think it's
hard sometimes when you are a blackperson, you wanna defend yourself in the
workplace and you're not in some kind ofleadership because it is seen as like,
oh, I gotta gotta watch out for ndi.
She'll, she'll say something like, mm-hmm.

(52:52):
You know, that's tiptoearound that person.
Or, you know, being so.
I think it's hard to vocalize.
You wanna stand up for yourself, youwanna stand up for the other people
at work of color, but then dependingon your skin color, you might be seen
as a person that, you know, let'skeep them out of this conversation
because it might be too sensitive.
And just to add the nuance, skin color,gender expression, sexual orientation,

(53:15):
immigration status, accent proficiency.
Mm-hmm.
All of that, you know?
Right.
Like I think what we're we'retalking about is the people in power.
Having the power to lay down whatis okay, what is acceptable, what
can be generalized and discriminatedagainst with coded language,
and what can be individualizedand rewarded and celebrated.

(53:36):
So I was born and raised in Singapore,which is a multiracial country.
So over there in Singapore, theChinese population is the majority
there, and then the minoritiesare the malaise and the Indian.
Pretty much all the cultures, youknow, all the different races, you
know, collaborate pretty, pretty well.
But there are also still, you know,like I, I believe in any major race

(53:58):
there's always going to be some racism.
And so the Chinese inSingapore have been accused of.
Having racist, taking on racist actionsagainst the minority races and the
10 tenets that you, as you put inhere, dismantling that it applies to
the majority race in Singapore too.
I mean, it's again, whoever, I, I thinkit's whoever's in power in terms of the

(54:22):
majority race and where you just haveto be con conscious that the things
that you do and you say have impacton, you know what people, you can't say
people of color because the majorityrace in Singapore is also people of
color, but it's just different color.
It's just because that they'redifferent doesn't mean we have
to be afraid of different ideas.

(54:43):
Um, and that they don't, don'tnecessarily have to all fit
into what we think it should be.
We should be welcoming of these differentdiverse ideas, experiences, and culture.
I was also reflecting onthe intersectionality piece.
One way of at least the way.
I sometimes talk about race andintersectionality is by saying, in

(55:08):
this work that I lead with race,but I center intersectionality.
Something that I get asked alot in the work is, you know,
why do we lead with race?
Why not with economic, uh, statusor why not with something else,
or some other intersectionality.
And the reason is that if you look atthe data, right, it clearly shows that

(55:28):
race is a determinant for outcomes.
So it's a very clear indicationthat if you look at across the
spectrum by jobs, by economics,by, you know, who has the power by
housing, by all kinds of indicators.
The data shows that peopleof color, especially African
Americans, are at the very bottom.

(55:50):
All of these indicators.
And so there's a reason to lead withrace because if you are targeting
solutions for the people who are themost affected, then everybody else is
also uplifted in that bargain game.
Mm-hmm.
Right?
So it is that targeted.
There's a theory of targeted universalismthat basically says, you know, target for

(56:11):
a specific case that are most impacted,so that universally everybody is uplifted.
So by talking about, you know,racial equity, we are not actually
taking rights away from people ortaking one and giving to another.
That's not the equation and that'snot the basis of this conversation.

(56:33):
It's really about lifting everybody.
Disadvantaging oneparticular group of people.
So it's a different entrypoint into this conversation.
And I have kind of used, you know,these analogies in, in many cases
to be more inclusive of people,to bring more people together.

(56:55):
Because at the end of the day, unless,you know, in any system, unless we
have everybody kind of aligned withthis idea of wanting to do this
work, this work will never get done.
And so finding bridges and finding waysof bringing people into the conversation
with the intention to do the work isalways something that I'm thinking about.

(57:16):
And so talking about it as saying,you know, we lead with race in
this conversation, but we'rereally centering intersectionality.
It's a way to also bring white peopleinto the conversation because you do have
people who are white, who are perhaps,you know, disadvantaged economically
or this ableism or this LGBTQ plus.
There are so many, you know, differentways that people can be disadvantaged.

(57:38):
And by offering many ways and many kindof entry points into this conversation,
we're actually building communityto do this work so that we're not
discriminating against a group of people.
That's really the idea behind it,is that this is not a community
that is there by accident.
It's a community that is intentionallybeing left behind because of

(58:02):
a series of factors throughhistory, through intentional,
institutional, systemic racism.
And so by removing those barriers, you'reactually taking away the discrimination
that has happened towards the community sothat that community can have very similar
experiences as the rest of the community.

(58:22):
To that point, I think people need toask themselves, people who aren't of
color, why is it okay to have a lackof representation of people of color
in the workplace or certain areas?
But then these same people who run thesecompanies will eat people of color's food.
They'll let these peoplebabysit their children.
They'll go to the people of color, theircountries, and they'll have a great time.

(58:44):
But then in the workplace is wherethere's this huge gap of inequity.
And it's just astonishing to me sometimesthat it's okay to do all the other things,
but in the workplace we can't be thesame, of course, in other areas as well.
But you know, I think it'sinteresting to me that, that
it's been happening for a while,
and right now what Covid hasuncovered is that it is the minority

(59:07):
communities that are the essentialworkers, that life just cannot.
Can you imagine if our essentialworkers were also on pause?
Yeah.
What might have happened?
The crucialness to it and the complete.
Disposable lens to it.
Nj, thank you for that.
I also say that there's, there's someirony in calling essential workers who

(59:31):
are probably the least paid, right?
Like, so you, there is somethingwrong about a system that says
these are essential workers.
These are the only two folks who areactually keeping up all of us, like,
you know, providing the food and accessand medicine, and yet they're the
least paid.

(59:51):
I've, I've said this before, that Covidand Black Lives Matter and racism in
America are not two separate things.
When is the bandaid that came off toto, to really expose that festering
infection of racism in this country?
When it comes to reporting on, you know,um, a potential microaggression or in

(01:00:11):
inappropriate behavior, it falls on theperson of color to always have that baton.
And we have a comment here dealing withand reporting situations that are either
racist and or are microaggressions.
I wanna open it up through the lens ofHR because HR has a reputation that is

(01:00:31):
not always positive within the workforce.
And I would love your perspectiveon why you might think that is, in
your opinion, what is being enabledto perpetuate that perspective
and what can be done to change it?
Because human resource, howcan we leverage that, the, the
actual meaning of that term?
Yeah, within our name, humanResources, we are supposed to be the

(01:00:54):
resource for humans in the workplace.
And I think that a lot of the time HRgets a stigma of either not being helpful
or having this close tie to management,and therefore everything you say to
HR will then go to senior leadership.
And my job then could be at risk, right?
I think that's why people have a badstigma because people don't hold that

(01:01:16):
confidentiality, that discretion.
And that's something like I've beentrying to stop and I pride myself
on is confidentiality because Iam there for not just the overall
company, but for the make up these.

(01:01:38):
People that are the head of HR is likeme or a whole department to make sure
they remove themselves from eithersenior leadership and from the employees.
Like I'm in my own island.
That's the way HR needs to be.
Senior leadership needs to be able tocome to me for advice, and employees
need to be able to come to me forconfidentiality and a safe space.
That's what real HR should be, and Ithink that because so many people want

(01:02:03):
to be buddy-buddy or what, whateverthe reason is with C-Suite and senior
leadership and things like that,that's where it gets a little gray.
And I think so many people have crossedthat line that people have a hard
time to know like, is HR really therefor me or they're just gonna report.
The time to make sure when I speakto people, like, Hey, is this a

(01:02:26):
conversation between you and I oris this okay for me to discuss?
You know, like if you're gonnatell me about something big and you
want my help, you have to make itclear how you're reporting that.
You know, if someone comes to meand tells me about my progressions,
which happens all the time, and notmy current company or anything that
in general over my lifespan, thenI have to ask that associate, what

(01:02:47):
would you like the outcome to be?
Because if you would like us tobe resolved, then maybe the con
confidentiality might be, you know,at some point you're gonna be known
because there'll be obvious, right?
What if there's only one Asianperson at the company, one black,
or you know, so it'll come out.
But I think the communicationis really why HR has that stigma

(01:03:08):
because we are there to help.
That's what I really love about mywhole entire job is to help people.
I'm sorry, you asked me second question.
I'm just going off.
No, this, and what is the opportunity?
What, what can HR dodifferent in this moment?
Oh, there's so many things.
You know, you are really supposedto be the catalyst for change in the
company as hr, and I think that youneed to be what we're meant to be,

(01:03:32):
which is advisors to the company.
So I think people in my position,if you're like a senior person
in HR something, you need to,this is the time to shine.
This is the time to tell companies whatwe need to do and, and run with it.
Because right now, unfortunately,it's sad to say it like that, but like
companies will try to make the changeif they can so they don't look bad.

(01:03:53):
And then you take that time as someonewho has a voice and power in the company.
When you're like the head of HR orsomething, make in this moment this.
If you're not as an HR person, I reallyquestion why you're in HR at all, and I
think in general, senior leadership issupposed to bring in the money, right?

(01:04:15):
Like Kama kind of said it's profits.
That's what their job is to think about.
You know, we all know this, but hrs jobis to let them know what this company can
do to sustain the profits they're making,but then also be a good competitive
company in terms of diversity, equity,everything of that nature, and how we
can do it and implement that change.
It is their responsibility,I think, to work with that.

(01:04:37):
And you know, unless you're workingwith a large organization where
there's HR, training, development,all the DNI, all, everyone together,
then it's a combined effort, I think.
Thank you.
Hi Ma. I have a DEI consultant.
Question for you specifically.
There are other consultancies outthere that work with organizations

(01:04:57):
that don't specialize in equity,diversity, and inclusion.
What is the opportunityfor those consultancies?
To, there is no expectation to startbecoming DEI specialists, but what is
the opportunity for those consultantswho don't necessarily lead with
the d and i lens to do somethingdifferent towards moving the needle?

(01:05:20):
You know, I would say that diversity,equity and inclusion is not particularly
a closed subject in itself, right?
Like it's part of everything that we do.
It's a part of leadership, it'sa part of how we show up at work.
It's a part of our authentic selves.
It's, it's everywhere, right?
Like, and it's also theresponsibility of everybody.

(01:05:41):
To be honest, I don't think about DEI asa sort of a separate spectrum in itself.
And I think about it asleadership training it.
It should be a part of everythingthat you think about and do.
And so some of the ways in which thework that I do, either, either through
the consultancy, you know, when Iwork with really large companies.

(01:06:04):
And currently in the work that I do,I really like the idea of having, when
you have work groups, right, who arekind of, uh, focused on providing an
outcome that you have people there whoare going to look at it from a racial
equity standpoint, so that every taskor every work group, basically in every

(01:06:24):
team that you have somebody or everybodyreally ideally focused on who is benefited
by this particular decision and who'sburdened by this particular decision.
So that is one very easy way ofunderstanding whether this outcome
or this particular work or thisproject as we go about the work is to

(01:06:46):
understand whether this is going tobe an equitable, very simple question,
but each time you show up, you.
Is this a good thing?
Is this a good thing for just some people?
Who is it burdened and whois, who's benefited by this?
So that's a way that everybodycan kind of exercise their
equity muscle in a, in a way.

(01:07:07):
And for consultants.
Paul want to think aboutthis in their own work.
I would say that's exactlythe way to do it, right?
Like, you don't have to be a DEIconsultant to do DEI work, like,
do your work and do it with,with the perspective of what that
equitable outcome ought to be, right?
Like building equitable systems andbuilding equity in systems is the work

(01:07:31):
of everybody is what I would say.
Thank you.
I have to ask Susan one question.
As someone who came from big lawand is now the founder of your
own successful boutique law firm,what is your own takeaway in terms
of creating your systems and yourstructures where you are now at the top?

(01:07:52):
Whatcha being intentional about?
What I'm intentional about is that basedon what I've experienced as part of big
law and growing up on it, seeing howsome of the systemic racism that is in
there, I mean, I'm very conscious aboutit as I grow my own firm and I make
it a point for everybody in my firmto know that it's an important issue.

(01:08:15):
It's not one that's just going to, we talkabout it and don't do anything about it.
We have to talk about it.
And we also have a free andopen space with no retaliation.
If anybody feels in any way that they are,they feel that there's been any racist.
Actions or they feel like they'vebeen discounted because of their
color or because they are somebodywho, who's different in, in any way.

(01:08:38):
So wearing mind legal lens is thatcompanies, you know, most companies
have a code of ethics and either codeof ethics, they cover things like, you
know, anti-corruption, anti bribery,even nowadays empty slavery stuff in it.
You know, why can't their code ofethics also have anti-racism stuff?
Just because it's not necessarily,you know, legislation has been

(01:08:59):
passed or laws have been passed.
It's still a very, veryimportant point that everybody
should, you know, be aware of.
They should codify it in theterms of organizational wise.
So in that case, because it'scodified, it shows that the
companies are committed to it.
And then they have these things likeagain, the whistleblower hotline stuff.

(01:09:20):
People can call into those if theyfeel that other people, we need an
organization, have broken those policies.
I think those.
Organizations should think about doing.
I don't know whether they'll actuallytake those steps at this point in time,
but they should move towards there.
Yeah.
Um, yeah, you just responded towhat we had talked about earlier.

(01:09:41):
What is that safe space?
How do we create those safe spacesfor that expression to happen?
My friends, I could go on forever, butthank you all so much, uh, for joining us.
Susan Jaima, mj, I am so extremelygrateful to all three of you for
joining me in this conversation.
Thank you for saying yes.
Hmm.

(01:10:01):
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