April 25, 2025 • 56 mins
This episode of FARSIGHT Chats, hosted by Farah Bala, features a discussion with Farzana Nayani about Employee Resource Groups (ERGs) and their impact on creating inclusive workplace environments. The conversation covers the foundational role ERGs play in fostering equity, diversity, inclusion, and anti-oppression within organizations. Farzana Nayani, the author of The Power of Employee Resource Groups, shares insights into the purpose, evolution, challenges, and strategic importance of ERGs. The episode also addresses contemporary issues like performative diversity measures, the role of white ally spaces, and the integration of DEI strategies with ERG initiatives. This comprehensive discussion provides insights for both new and existing ERG leaders to effectively navigate and contribute to their organization's DEI landscape. Listeners are encouraged to reflect on their own ERG participation and the broader implications for organizational culture.
| KEY TOPICS DISCUSSED |
Definition, Purpose & Evolution of ERGs
- ERGs = Employee Resource Groups.
- Designed to build inclusion and belonging within organizations.
- Other names: Affinity Groups, BRGs (Business Resource Groups), ENs (Employee Networks).
- Evolved from grassroots support groups to strategic organizational tools.
Support & Sponsorship
- Success depends on executive sponsorship, leadership buy-in, and internal champions.
- Sponsors can offer advocacy, visibility, and access to leadership.
Challenges & Resistance
- Fear of divisiveness or creating silos.
- Importance of intentional design and communication to avoid being seen as performative or tokenistic.
Authentic Change vs. Optics
- ERGs must be more than performative.
- Real change comes from consistent investment, engagement, and structural support.
DEI Integration
- ERGs should not replace a company’s DEI strategy.
- Need for alignment and mutual reinforcement between DEI offices, councils, and ERGs.
Call to Action
- Start with self-reflection and clear purpose.
- Use tools like ERG charters and the 5 Ps (Purpose, People, Process, Planning, Priorities).
| SHOW NOTES |
00:00 Introduction to Farsight Chats
00:44 Understanding Employee Resource Groups (ERGs)
02:55 Guest Introduction: Farzana Nayani
04:03 The Power of ERGs: Insights from Farzana's Book
05:53 Challenges and Engagement in ERGs
09:16 The Evolution and Importance of ERGs
14:24 Strategic Implementation of ERGs
22:56 Support and Sponsorship for ERGs
28:56 Addressing Resistance and Ensuring Sustainability
31:58 Current Trends in ERG Funding and Compensation
33:28 The Importance of Recognizing ERG Roles
34:53 Addressing Performative ERG Efforts
37:54 The Five P's Model for ERG Success
38:53 Investments in ERGs: Beyond the Budget
42:30 Engaging and Sustaining ERG Participation
45:02 The Role of White ERGs and Allyship
47:02 The Need for DEI Councils and Oversight
50:32 Challenges and Resistance in DEI Initiatives
51:58 Training ERG Leaders for Effective Representation
55:16 The Impact of Unfulfilled DEI Promises
59:01 Final Thoughts and Next Steps
| WORKS CITED |
The Power of Employee Resource Groups. 2022. Book.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:01):
Welcome to Far Sight Chats, your Guideto Navigating Complex and Important
Conversations on Workplace Culture.
I'm your host, Farra Bala,founder and CEO of Far Sight.
We specialize in leadership andorganizational development, focusing
on equity, diversity, and inclusion.
As core leadership competencies join usin these conversations that aim to foster,
(00:25):
understanding, growth and positive change.
On today's episode, employee ResourceGroups, I am joined again by Farzana
Ani, who was one of our guestson episode seven, our Children.
The Future, if you are new to theterm employee resource groups or ERGs.
They are foundational in creatingenvironments of inclusion and
(00:48):
belonging within an organization.
They align not just to its organizationalgoals, but also to its EDIA.
That's equity, diversity,inclusion, anti-oppression
strategy, mission, and initiatives.
There are many terms that get usedinterchangeably with ERGs, like affinity
groups, business resource groups, or BRGsemployee networks, or ENSs, and many more.
(01:13):
Each of them have unique nuancesto how these intentional gatherings
are formed and executed based onself-identified and shared identities.
Fno joined me for this conversationin the fall of 2022, where we
discussed the purpose and evolutionof ERGs and the successful outcomes
it can produce when executed well.
(01:34):
A significant challenge that I oftenhear about from my ERG client leaders
is that of engagement and participation.
So as you listen in today, we inviteyou to consider your own take on ERGs
and how often are you engaging withyour own employee resource group?
What else might you need personallyor professionally from your ERG that
(01:56):
might motivate you to get more involved?
And finally, if you are already anexecutive sponsor for your company's
ERG, is your ERG leader being paid fortheir time and expertise, or are they
still being expected to volunteer?
Join us on this journey oflearning and unlearning in
today's episode of Farside Chats.
(02:23):
I'm so excited for this conversation.
It has been something that's beenpercolating for me for a very long time.
And.
I was so glad that Ana was not justavailable, but I love the timing of
this because this book, which I wouldreally encourage everyone to get, the
power of employee resource groups,how people create Authentic Change by
(02:45):
Ana Niani, who is also today's guest.
So please join me in welcoming Ana.
Thank you for being here, andI'm gonna hand it over to you to
please introduce yourself to us.
Farah.
Thank you so much for the invitationto participate and I really am
so excited about this discussion.
, my name is Farzana Ani.
(03:06):
My pronouns are she, her and hers.
I am here on the land of the Tongvapeople in Los Angeles, and I've been
doing diversity, equity, and inclusionconsulting work for over 20 years.
I am the author of the new bookcalled the Power of Employee Resource
Groups, and the subtitle is HowPeople Create Authentic Change.
(03:31):
and I also wrote another booka couple of years ago called
Raising Multiracial Children.
So that book was really the launch into.
How to take information and shareit with the public in a very
consumable and easy to understand way.
So that's my approach with the ERG book isthat there are a lot of great resources,
(03:54):
articles, academic and news publicationsabout employee resource groups.
But what I feel that this bookdoes is it fills the gap of making
the conversation accessible.
And I know one of the questionsis Pana, how did you get into
(04:14):
this work in particular with ERGs?
And I was involved with a lot ofleadership conferences in the DEI
space, and the topic of ERGs keptcoming up over and over again.
And what I found was that there werereally rich conversations in those
conferences that happened offline.
(04:35):
And the difference was they wereamong people from different companies.
So they were having these raw,honest and open conversations and
sharing some really deep stuff.
And I was privy to thoseconversations, privy to those
panels and those deep examinationsof the topic and the industry.
(04:56):
And I was able to parlaythat into consulting work.
To do my own research.
I've read a lot, and you cansee in the book, I have a lot
of references and resources.
So I was on this quest to try to compileeverything and it dawned on me that
having a handbook, a, an easy to read one.
(05:16):
It's a quick read.
It's not that long.
It's 120 pages.
And, , it's , in language thatis similar to what you would hear
if you were talking with me, sothat people can feel comfortable.
And that's
the spirit of my work andthe spirit of the book.
Thank you so much for sharing that, Ana.
(05:37):
Raising multicultural children.
Your first book, can I just sayit came out during the pandemic
and it was so immensely useful.
, I know that I spread the word through myfriends and , I would get screenshots,
, I have a friend of mine who boughtsix, and she's , I'm sharing it with
all of my mother's groups, et cetera.
But in terms of how do you start talkingto your, , your children about race, how
(06:00):
do you start talking to your childrenabout, , the cultural conversations
that have so rapidly evolved?
So highly recommend that one as well.
You actually answered the questionof why are you focused on ERGs?
But before we get into ERGs, this, theselast three years have been very intense
for practitioners, for anyone who'sdoing any kind of work in the EDIA space.
(06:23):
And I wanna know what keeps you going.
, , a couple things
, one thing that has kept me going isthe community that has been supportive,
not only of me, but of each other,whether it be in the healing space or
in, in the case of my background, theAsian Pacific Islander community space.
And I think that, there was a lot ofself care that was needed in that time.
(06:45):
And at the same time, there was alot of momentum around initiatives
that, quite frankly, we've beentalking about for a long time that
didn't get a lot of attention.
So what kept me going was seeingthat rise of the tides, of people
feeling finally acknowledged for whatwe've been saying the whole time.
(07:08):
Also for the momentum thatactually continued so that
people could participate.
People could make the casefor DEI and A and belonging.
And also because there seemed tobe a greater global awareness,
we didn't have to explain asmuch as to why it was important.
(07:31):
And that was a major shift.
It was a catalyst for somany organizations to start.
Initiatives that have been on theback burner have faced resistance.
We saw a lot of people of colorin particular who were finally
acknowledged in roles in their efforts.
And we also saw just , a greaterglobal awareness around things
(07:55):
like anti-blackness, anti-Asianracism, the ongoing need and concern
for the LGBTQ plus community.
And at the same time, there wasthe tragedies that were uncovered
in Canada with people's children.
Whose bodies were found onthe residential school sites.
And I am originally from Canada.
(08:16):
I live in Los Angeles now,but I grew up in Canada.
And as I was writing this book, thetragedies and the horrors of that
recognition were coming to light.
So there was a lot of confluenceof factors that allowed for us
to make the case a lot easier andfor a lot of momentum to continue.
(08:37):
And what kept me hopeful was tosee that impact actually happen.
Thank you for what you do.
'cause it truly takes acollective of everyone , to move
us forward, , as a humanity.
I'd like to start with abaseline of what are ERGs and.
Do you have to be a multimilliondollar , corporation to have them?
(09:00):
What are ERGs who can create ERGs?
Great question as to what are ERGs?
So the term ERG stands for EmployeeResource Group, and they have
been around for decades in somecompanies, Xerox notably was
the first company to start them.
There was, a black caucus thatconverted into an employee research
(09:21):
group and there was a big push aroundadvocacy, and promotion and leadership
of, in particular black and AfricanAmerican people at that company.
And what the employee researchgroups do is create a space for
people of a similar demographic.
To come together in community toraise awareness around causes and
(09:45):
also to have a space for allies toparticipate who may be friends of,
the community, but aren't a part ofthe demographic themselves to really,
continue the efforts around inclusion,belonging, and equity for those people.
So you could have an African Americanblack network, as I just mentioned.
You could have a HispanicLatine community group.
(10:09):
You could have an Asian PacificIslander Heritage Network, you could
have an LGBTQ plus queer Pride group.
There's ones for veterans.
We're seeing neurodiversity ability,accessibility, disability, and
even things like if you're a partof , a certain group like parents
(10:32):
or other causes and interests that.
Maybe aren't top of mind for people,but are a huge part of your identity.
There are groups created around those.
A company of any size can havethem, and sometimes when there's a
smaller company, they combine forces.
You'll have maybe like a bipoc, blackconditionalist, people of color,
(10:52):
ERG instead of each individual one.
Or you might have, , somecollaboration in combination.
, women's networks are usually huge,, as well, and they're sometimes
one of the first ones started justbecause it's, you know, , a large
part of the population as well.
So you'll see a range of them,around any industry or organization.
(11:15):
In our work that we've done, , withAffinity Spaces, caucuses, ERGs, we are
always tying, connecting the dots to.
It being another avenue of creatingthat space of belonging and inclusion
where people feel, seen, heard,valued, , invested in where they work.
(11:35):
What is your perspectiveof the , specifically?
Yeah, there's a lot of terminologythat is being used around them.
So you might have the term caucus,and sometimes that creates,,
a connection to advocacy.
Mm-hmm.
, or maybe they're, based in a highereducation institution, and the
(11:55):
configuration around them allowsfor there to be like an overarching
community identity, , initiative.
And then the caucuses are underneath,sometimes they're called affinity
groups, and we use that when in,in my consulting work, we use that
term affinity group when it's.
, more around gathering of people ratherthan it being strategic or having an
(12:18):
organizational cause that is clarified.
Some people say this is an early versionof an ERGs, it's called an Affinity group.
There are also business resource groups,which are a type of employee research
group, which are focused on, the businesscase, and maybe performing some duties
related to, , a need , at the company.
(12:39):
So, for example, an aerospace companythat I know and work with, they had some
people who were coming from differentcountries and, their ERG helped orient and
onboard those people to American culture.
So that was like very much , abusiness, well, it's a social reason
too, and an employee reason, but theyhad some specific reasons for that.
(13:04):
So sometimes they're calledBRGs and defined as that.
'cause , they're very much organizationaland business related, whereas employee
research groups center, the employee
the needs of the employee andthe involvement of the employee.
So it's organizational businessversus the employee, but er
g should be strategic too.
So I think that's where, mm-hmm.
Maybe there's, a need to focus on howthey can be strategic and organizational
(13:27):
in their objectives as, as well.
What would your recommendationbe in who needs to be involved
at that strategy table?
One of the things that you mentioned inyour book is the need for sponsorship
in terms of does it have not justthe buy-in, but full support from
the leaders of an organization.
And so I get a lot ofquestions in terms of.
(13:50):
What is the right grouping of peoplewho need to be at the decision making
level of here are the ERGs that we,or, whether they're business resource
groups, employee resource groups, employeenetworks, by whatever name who decides.
And that's the balance.
And that's why you can't saythere's one way to create them.
Sometimes the employees are theones who lead the charge and
(14:12):
push leadership to, to have them.
Sometimes the org themselves realizethe value and, and the case that
is made for them and initiates themand taps people and appoints them.
in some cases, it's both.
Or it could be an HR led initiative.
So there isn't one rightway or only way to do them.
(14:34):
So related to that with your questionas to who should be at the table, I
think in an ideal state, every levelof leadership should be at the table
in, in response and in support of ERGs
.But what we see oftentimes is they're siloed, they're
employee run with no support.
Little budget, peopledon't know what they are.
(14:54):
Managers might get annoyed that they'repeople are doing stuff on their lunch
hours or on the side using work time.
So then it doesn't organicallygain the traction it needs to be
successful, and instead it can beseen as an annoyance or a hobby.
And that's really a danger zone, to behonest, for employee resource groups.
(15:19):
So part of my book, although it's peoplecentered and is really talking about
transformational change, it does talkabout operational processes that are
key in order to succeed and thrive.
Let's go
to the evolution ofemployee resource groups.
For someone who's been , doing thiswork with ERGs as long as you have,
(15:39):
and an evolution of , how they havegrown in not just levels of importance
and priority in an organization, butalso sustainability, credibility, and
in terms of being that change agent,
the different types andthe evolution of ERGs.
, it's gotta have to do with thereadiness of the organization.
(16:02):
And I write about, readiness of leadersand individuals in my book because.
If there's a push to make them happen toofast, they can actually flop and fail.
, we've seen this firsthand with someorganizations who had a very budding
and excited, , staff group who wantedto start the ERGs and the org, didn't
(16:26):
have the infrastructure in place, butwe're beholden to what they promised
around the RG and started up the ERG,but, only to find that there wasn't enough
resources or person power to actually leadthem and run them and keep them going.
So then, it can be seen as a pause andI've been brought in by the way, to a
(16:48):
number of organizations who have had tohave that pause and now they're restarting
them under a new brand or a new name,or a new initiative, or a, new HR lead.
So it's very common.
The point about that is really assessingyour own readiness at the organization
and if you have resources and support.
The other part about the evolutionof the ERGs is understanding the goal
(17:09):
and purpose around them at the org.
Mm-hmm.
So is it, again, to serve the employees?
Is it to serve, mostly , thebusiness initiatives.
That's the case.
There really should be some goodcommunication around that so
people are aware and then don'tget disappointed in any direction.
So leaders don't get disappointed.
Members don't get disappointed andit's clear this is what we're here
(17:31):
for, this is what we're doing.
And I've had to sometimes call offERG members and leaders to say, look,
if you wanna do, social cause type ofstuff, it can be a component of this,
but is it in alignment with the org?
And we have to pull it back sometimes andrealize some of that stuff maybe belongs
outside of the org and that's okay.
(17:51):
It's just being clear about it.
You've mentioned, two things, right?
Having what I see as foundational,having resources to create and
sustain an ERG, and the secondis having your goal and purpose.
Can you just cite some re what didresources look like in an organization
if you were to break them down?
(18:11):
Yeah, great question.
Person power.
So like enough people in the ERG, and Ilike to say that you need at least five
to seven people who will join and lead theERG, not just one or two people, right?
The other resource you need is support.
So that comes in the form of perhapshaving an executive sponsor or a champion
(18:32):
or someone who can organizationallybe the guide and mentor to you.
And, from an organizational perspective,open doors for you, whether it be
something simple like getting the roombooked and getting permission to meet
or sending out some correspondencethrough the channels that are more
(18:53):
organizational and not just the group.
So, that's support.
And of course, there's the discussionabout funds as resources, and that
can be just even having events.
It could be in professionaldevelopment monies, it could
be in hiring a guest speaker.
It could be in buying books thatpeople wanna read and reflect on,
or taking an online course online.
(19:14):
Or sending people to conferences.
So there's a lot that goes into beinga part of an employee research group.
And I think sometimes we focus on,okay, is the ERG leader being paid?
But there's also the idea, theother resources available for
the group and the individual.
I wanna zoom in on one of thepossibilities and how you create
(19:37):
an ERG that you mentioned,which is the people ask for it.
And I wanna tie that into a questionthat we have from our audience.
How do d and i staff encourageERG leaders to focus on strategic
needs of the organization?
What support data resources shouldwe give them to assist with the
(19:58):
strategic and business thinking?
There's the ideal state, and then there's,the steps towards that ideal state.
So what I mentioned in, in terms ofall the resources, that's an ideal
state if you have all those in place.
But at minimum, something that is neededis, let's say a charter to start the
(20:18):
group and to clarify the operations ofthe group who's gonna be a part of it.
And.
Once you have that charter, you'llknow if you have the resources you
need because you don't, you'll know if,there's some sort of direct reporting
structure that you are connectedto that can offer that support.
You'll know if you have two to fourofficers who can help run the year.
(20:40):
G you'll know if you have, people whocan serve in the term limit, right?
Mm-hmm.
So that document is helpfulas a roadmap for you.
And then if you think about how manytimes you meet a month, do you have
the, communication infrastructureto hold the meeting or to have
(21:00):
recordings and to share them?
And then all of a sudden you realize,oh, I think we need an internal website.
Do you have the intranet?
They, oh, actually we needsomeone to run the newsletter.
Do we have , a comms, person,do we have the approval ran
into this with some of your Gs?
Do we have the approval to send this out?
So once you start rolling, yourealize the resources you need.
(21:25):
And it's like running a mini organization.
Yeah.
And, you need all parts of thatorganization to really thrive.
You mentioned having that sponsorand support, is that always in the
shape of the, top tier leadership orcould that also be in form of head
of DEI in an organization or both?
(21:45):
Is it in the binary or canit be all of the above?
So that's a touchy
topic.
. Okay.
And I think that there are peoplewho are very in supportive ERGs, but
don't understand the, then there's.
(22:05):
All companies will have aleader who's in support.
It's just a matter of who,is it the CEO themselves?
Is it the vp?
Is it right?
Someone who's in charge of operationsand sees how having people in
alignment could be helpful.
Mm-hmm.
And when you have champions all theway up the chain in the organizational
(22:27):
hierarchy, it's just easier.
If you have someone who's got a chipon their shoulder and has a cause
and wants to transform a policy,then they could be seen as a threat.
And anything they, they docould be seen as lobbying.
And by the way, that'sagainst the law, right?
You can't have like a consortium of peoplethat like interact, use company funds,
(22:52):
lobby, influence the company like that.
There's legal ramifications ofthat, which people don't understand.
So to keep it clean and, and to keep itclear, you have to have some guidelines
that, that govern and, support.
Mm-hmm.
The direction of the ERG and somelevel of organization in terms of
(23:13):
the leader and reporting structure.
I'm telling you, because , I talk toso many organizations that I work with.
And these pain points that you'reraising in this conversation,
Farah are extremely common.
Yeah.
And people wrestle thewith these all the time.
So I'm really glad we'rehaving this conversation.
Ana, I wanna go back to whatyou said around making sure that
(23:35):
there is that organizationalstructure from your sponsor.
Can you break down for me?
What support looks like for sponsorship?
Do they need to be atevery coordination meeting?
Do they need to be getting,every single update of every ERG?
Do they need to be present?
All
right.
(23:55):
So you'll see , some sponsors andI'll get, I'll name a name because
this is, , I really love the ERG.
So, at Experian, , I, I didsome work with Experian.
We had a big ERG summit at Experian.
, they were, their executive sponsorswere so involved that they literally
had a happy hour the day before ora month bef day before and the month
(24:16):
before this big leadership ERG summitand their executive sponsors came,
broke bread, had food and drinks.
. And you'll see them around.
Mm-hmm.
And those types of executive sponsors.
I have a personal connection.
When they care, there's somethingaround them being able to give back.
They mentor and that'sreally up to the person.
That's like a personal reason.
(24:36):
Like I wish I knew thiswhen I started my career.
So I'm gonna in turn help other people.
That's one type of executive pon sponsor.
And they'll do these other parts.
There's the executive sponsor that likethe silent one that, , stays out of the
way, but you call them when you needthem and they'll take care of an issue.
. There's the type of executivesponsor that can help open doors
(24:59):
for, you can go behind the scenes.
And , one company I was workingwith, they had this big parenting
EG summit and , the ERG leaders wentto the executive sponsor and said,
Hey, we need to have good attendance.
We're having farzana come in.
This is like a culmination of a series.
Like we need to have people come.
(25:21):
And so they were able to getthis person literally into
the executive board meeting.
And this GY leader who was a mom toldthis story about how when she was
working from home, because of a lack offlexibility on time and calls, she had
to hear her child cry in the other roomduring bedtime screaming, calling for her.
(25:42):
And she literally had all ofthese executives in tears telling
the story about this policy.
That needed to be changed aroundmeeting time and how late they
stay and, how they take breaks.
And because of that, every singleexecutive in that room, this gimme
chills to say, pledged to bring, 50 toa hundred people from their department.
(26:04):
We had three to 400 peopleon a call around parenting.
And I was so impressed with that advocacy.
But it wasn't just her.
It was the doors open to herfrom the executive sponsor.
And that's again, back to the hopefulnessI have around DEI, ERGs in particular.
(26:25):
That kind of thing makes my heart soarbecause I know that there are people,
like each of the people here today whocan have, once that door's open or they
open it themselves, can make that type ofimpact, can change organizational culture
to help people like us who have multipleidentities that we're hiding at all times.
And that's why we need ERGs.
(26:46):
It's a very.
Very simple, straightforward reasonthat I have behind them is that we
need to have people represented, theirvoices heard and their needs met.
And the only way we can do that is ifwe come together and express and have
an organizational , method to address,each item, each identity, and each cause.
Thank you.
(27:06):
I wanna flip it now to potentialresistances from sponsorship.
Something that we've encountered, eventhough, like you said, , the conversations
have gone on we don't have to make thecase as much it is being asked for.
The importance of it isabsolutely recognized.
We still get spaces, not always, butit does exist where it's about, we
(27:30):
don't wanna divide the organization.
We are already doing a lotof organizational development
and training and education.
It will further go down in silos.
Your take on why the resistance,what's behind it, how the people
can influence and push through
(27:51):
if it is possible.
In my other book on raising multiracialchildren, the simple example, I give
is that parents avoid talking aboutrace with their kids because they
don't want people to feel othered.
But the studies show that when youdon't, the default time that people
end up talking to their kids aboutrace or religion or any type of
(28:12):
difference is when there's an incident.
That's the only time theystart the conversation.
And by and large, then that meansthat kids from marginalized identities
have the talk earlier than kidsfrom dominant identities, right?
So you have kids of color who are havingto deal with race and racial dynamics
earlier than kids who are white.
So the same thing happens.
(28:33):
And I've never made this parallel outloud, so I'm glad that this is being said.
The same thing happens in organizationswhen we just have to put our heads down
and work, and we don't talk about theissues until there's an actual incident.
And in the case of George Floyd,that was a big incident that was
televised and broadcast virally andnone of us could turn away from.
(28:55):
But there are incidents all theway along a person's life and,
professional work experience.
So ERGs are a way to proactively havethat conversation before it gets to
the point where there's an incidentand now we're in crisis control.
So the resistance, I actually understandthe fear around it, is that if we
(29:16):
start talking about it or doingthis, we're gonna make a problem.
But what people don't understand isthat the problem's already there.
And when you're in a dominantidentity, just like those parents.
We choose not to talk about it ora leader or an executive and you
say, I don't wanna talk about it.
You're being like those parentsputting it up until there's a problem.
(29:36):
And guess what?
That's when you have to callsomeone to remedy, the issue.
And by then it, it's pretty bad.
Thanks for laying it out that way.
Speaking of support, can we talkabout where ERGs are at in 2022
regarding funding incentive forERG leaders versus free labor?
Absolutely EER G leaders shouldhave some sort of, what I'd like
(30:01):
to say, reward or recognition now.
How people define that canbe different depending on the
organization or the person themselves.
So the reward could be paid, but what I'veseen some people have is a spot bonus.
What I've seen some people have isit tied to their performance review
(30:23):
and an increase or promotion happen.
There also can be reward andrecognition through other ways.
It could be through recognition,events, awards, celebrations.
I would say internally, perhapsyou are tapped for a role in your
occupation that you might not have been.
Mm-hmm.
And we don't count that when wethink about reward a lot of the time.
(30:46):
But those are the organicways that reward shows up.
And I always ask this questionfor ERG leaders, and I
always get the same response.
I ask, do you have your ERG roll?
On your LinkedIn profile and,eight to nine people outta
10 haven't put it on there.
(31:08):
And to me, I think part of it is usowning that this is something to be
proud of and it is a part of our work andstating it as so, and modeling that to
our direct, , supervisors and managers.
So it's not something we're hidingdoing at the side of our desk.
We're like doing on our lunchand like secretly organizing
(31:29):
so we don't get in trouble.
So I think it's both ways.
I think it's , how we receive thatand then also how it's positioned and
absolutely the organization shouldcome up with some sort of plan.
It's different for everyone and it'shard because who do you compensate?
You compensate just theleaders but not the volunteers.
And then, so that slippery slopeis what makes it difficult.
(31:50):
And that's up to each organization.
Yeah.
I'm such an advocate forreward and recognition.
, and
to clarify, ERGs existence historicallywithin organizations has been on a
volunteer basis, that's how it started.
And it's only, speaking of evolution,it's in the recent path that
these conversations of financialcompensation are coming in even more
(32:12):
in terms of adding them to budgets.
How do we avoid the trope of ERGs beingused as a diversity optics by the
company organization?, I guess thisgets to the authentic change part of,
your book.
Great question.
Yes.
Authentic change, true transformation isnot something that is done lightly and
(32:34):
people can see through it when you're not.
So, when it is performative, I wouldsay number one, it doesn't work.
Number two, people can tell.
So I think with ERG, , there's no wayfor it to be performative , and survive.
I think when things are set up andpeople start to recognize maybe
(32:55):
that , it's going off course , andwhat you're describing here, they
start to actually not participate.
And there was a study done from aconsulting research company that
showed that this is the same case forpeople who are entering orgs who want
to see if the DEI initiatives areactually substantial and authentic.
(33:16):
And what they're pro, what they'reshowing is that when someone who's
hiring a person of color says, we havea DEI plan and program, and here's the
business case for it, that's actually aturnoff for people of color candidates.
They do not like.
In this study they showed, they donot like hearing the business case.
(33:39):
Or anything, DEI, andI've seen that in ERGs.
I was, , a speaker at an event and theyshowed this model, which had talked about,
, commerce , and the business case and theEER G leaders put a poll , in the chat,
Hey, which of these are important, theorganization culture or us as people?
And it was extremely low onthe commerce business side.
(34:04):
There's no one who was interested in that.
Everybody was interested , in communitybuilding and personal development.
So then what that means is , it's not atopic that you lead out , with people in
this current environment.
I love that question.
And then the on the other side, somethingthat we experienced in the recent past
(34:24):
was we got brought in to help createand deepen ERGs within an organization.
There was an expectationof immediate impact.
Okay.
These ERGs have met for a couple of times.
What was the impact?
Why do we need to keep going?
So there was, can you speak a littlebit to that in terms of from the
(34:46):
outside, there is sponsorship, thereis support, there is investment,
and then this level of pressureand urgency of what did this do?
What did this do at every step?
Is that reasonable?
Is that, not,
I think we have to have some innerreflection around, and by the
(35:07):
way, I talk about this in my book,like why ERGs are there, and I
have a model called the five Ps.
The first one is purpose andwe need to come back to that.
The second one has to do with peoplewho's involved, who are the stakeholders.
The third has to do with processes.
That aren't in place.
(35:27):
The fourth has to do withplanning, and fifth has to do with
priorities around all of the above.
So when we review those and match itup against what you're asking here,
it starts to illuminate gaps thatwe might have in the plan and the
strategy and a lot of, I think, amismatch of expectations, to be honest.
(35:49):
We've been talking aboutinvestments, right?
In terms of compensation.
What do investmentstowards ERGs look like?
Should companies compensate people?
And what if, and again, this is goingback to the, what about small companies?
What if they don't have enough of abudget or they're a small startup?
An ERG strategy without a DEI strategy, is something that can be a red flag.
(36:13):
And when you have the burden of DEIinitiatives only run by employee research
group leaders like the ERG leaders from,a certain group are leading the charge on
awareness of something that's a problem.
And so the first investmentreally is in the structure.
How is this structured?
How is it framed?
(36:34):
What support does a group have?
I think , the second investment thatmaybe directly we're talking about
here, is the money put into it.
And that can be things thatare visible and are invisible.
So it could be that the companyneeds to hire a lawyer to
structure, the terminology andthe charters to be acceptable and.
(36:59):
Worthwhile.
That's the kind of stuff, youdon't hear about or talk about.
That's an investment.
Mm-hmm.
that's what a company has todo behind the scenes, right?
Is review that stuff.
Another investment is time.
It's allocating, an executivesponsor or other person, a DEI
leader or HR leader to manage this.
(37:19):
So that FTE dedication,that's an investment.
What we see is just the budgetat the end of the day, what
ERGs are allowed to manage.
But a lot of time companiesI think, are good with any
type of idea that makes sense.
They will able be able to find fundingand if they can't have it through their
regular ERG budget, these executives canwrite it off on their own departments.
(37:41):
I've seen that happen where they'relike, oh, do we need a little more?
Let me actually pledge some PDprofessional development money that I
had parked, and I'm gonna bring all mypeople to this too, in addition to the
ERG and let's just do a big group effort.
People have, the ability to do that.
So there's been a strategy in this, andI think when we use the word park, like
(38:05):
park ourselves in looking at this in avery specific and actually limited way,
I think it removes a creative possibilitythat I'm trying to have in the book to
inspire, the ability for us to expandand think wider and think broader.
So I, I just, I look at it as a challenge.
(38:26):
Something that you puzzle piece outand you bring, a lot of positivity
to in order to make it happen.
Have you discussed employee unionization?
Yeah, those are partly the purview ofthe company and some of it has to do
with a fear around people organizing.
(38:48):
So there is, a fine linebetween the organizing and the
support at an organization.
So some of that has to do with thecomfort around the group coming together.
Wanna move to the people involved inan ERG In terms of engagement, this
(39:08):
is something that again, we've beenbrought in for a couple of times as well.
We have all of this stuff in place.
And, how do we keep people engaged?
How do we keep them motivated andcommitted wherein, it's not a nice
to have, but there is a level ofthat employee responsibility, right?
When it centers the person,when it centers the connection
(39:31):
that we employee in business.
So yeah, thoughts on engagement,sustaining engagement.
And that's probably one of the numberone questions your GE leaders ask
is how to keep the membership going.
So that's one aspect, right?
Is recruitment for peopleto be a part of it.
But then what you're talking about isengagement once they're in and there's a
(39:54):
big gap between people coming to be a partof the group and then also participating.
So I think when people thinkof engagement, is it attendance
or are you thinking about.
The type of quality conversationyou're having, is it who shows up
to the event and bring someone else?
(40:16):
Harley Davidson had this really coolprogram where at their ERG event, they
had bring a friend, like a blessed one,and then that encouraged engagement.
So, it's about the how andalso what are we expecting?
Because right now there's thisconcept, I don't know if everyone's
seen this in the news, they're talkingabout quiet, quitting, and quiet.
Quitting is people who arestill at the job, but they're
(40:38):
not going above and beyond justthe basic minimum items, right?
So if we're seeing that in the overallworkplace, then how much can we
really require or expect from peopledoing an additional item like ERGs?
So I think it's coming back tothe level setting around it.
(41:03):
speaking of engagement again.
Again, there was this huge influxneed, wanting to gather in spaces
of affinity to talk, right?
Have those courageous conversations.
We were hearing it all the timein the media, in our groups.
We gotta have morecourageous conversations.
I wanna pivot to the role of whitespaces specifically because at the
(41:27):
end of the day, we're talking aboutcreating spaces of inclusion, belonging.
ERG is being one avenue to dothat, and every ERG has a different
motivation, to your point,different goal, different purpose.
What is an overarching common themerunning through the establishing and
(41:52):
sustaining of white ERGs in organizations?
Yeah, those are, I think a lotof organizations are curious
about when a white ERG is, andwhat they're supposed to do.
I've seen them developed in parallelwith men for women type of ERGs,
and not saying that there's onlya binary gender identity, but
(42:14):
let's say that's how it's worded.
I, I realize there's a spectrum ofgender identity, but what they show
is that sometimes the men, for womenis a way to engage in male allyship.
And I think in parallel the white allytype of groups for people of color
groups, it's supposed to be not only tobe in support or an ally or advocate,
(42:38):
but it's also for their own learning,and their own awareness and their own
education and their own processing.
And what each of those types of groupsdoes is it preserves a space for people
to share their fears and vulnerabilityand questions and education without
burdening the other group, so that isthe purpose and the setup, how that's
(42:59):
received can be different for each org.
It's definitely, of course, a sensitivetopic and starts to create that
conversation around is this divisiveand what is the purpose of this?
So I think it comes back to thereadiness of the organization and what
the goal is that they have around them.
I'm curious, is there a needfor a diversity council at the
(43:21):
institutional level when there isalready a DEI office plus ERGs?
Does it create more extraneous structure?
There definitely needs to be oversight.
So , if the council is clear, maybethey're working council, if they're clear
about the reporting, that's one method.
Sometimes they're hands off though ifit's grassroots and they need guidance,
(43:45):
a lot of er g members are not, , managersor they're not leaders, , per se.
So they're, frontline employees, they'reindividual contributors and they're
joining and they're doing somethingnew like this for the first time.
It's hard, and I think the expectationthat they'll just understand everything
without training or onboarding,really needs us to look at the
(44:06):
support structure and if they doneed an HR DEI leader to help them.
You know, what this, is reminding meof is, and this is not the topic for
today, but , the amount of new roles.
Whether it's DEI, council heads ofDEI that got created in the last three
years with no clear, , guidelinesor expectations of role access
(44:32):
to power and decision making.
, and it was truly for optics and how all ofthose roles, , currently are experiencing
deep spaces of burnout, right?
So that term extraneous structure, that'swhat it, and coming back to what we were
talking about, that it is all connected.
What is that purpose,,that you speak of Ana?
Let's ground, and not just ERGpurpose, but relationality, but we,
(44:54):
ERG and council, ERG and EDI, office,ERG, and hr, all of it together.
, and if those conversationsare not happening.
That's what I'm taking away Faranafrom everything that , you've talked
about in the five Ps of those initialconversations are what ground you in,
not just how you move forward, butalso opening you up to creativity.
(45:17):
.When you set that foundation, call it visioning, call it imagining, aspiring
to, okay, here is who we wanna be andhow we wanna do it, there is more room
to play and collaborate even couldperhaps the council act as a buffer
between ERGs and hr. Do you haveany opinion or perspective on that
(45:37):
buffer or, , advocate or soundingboard or steering committee?
There's a lot of experiencesof DEI councils in terms of
how they actually perform.
. Some are working committeesthat are stand-ins for when
there isn't a DEI or HR leader.
(45:58):
And that could be, 'cause thecompany organization is in
early formation around DEI.
Mm-hmm.
Um, so if that gets stood up first,then, that's what they serve as.
If they're further, if the ERG and DEIstrategy is further along than a DEI
council can be the steering for yourreporting strategy, how it connects to the
(46:19):
company overall benchmarks for success.
it's, it can be very strategic.
So it just depends who's on thecouncil, and who the rolling
the reporting rolls up to.
If it's the CEO themselves.
What , are some similarities you'veencountered across generations
industries, when it comes to obstacles,when initiating DEI structure,
(46:41):
it's what we said earlieraround resistance and what I
said earlier about readiness.
So if people are nervous about it,they're gonna be nervous about any
part of it, including your cheese.
But then it's up to all of us tocommunicate and advocate for the
experience of how this is useful.
(47:03):
And so I think we need to have some innerreflection around understanding that not
everyone's on the same page, and then howwe can get them to be on the same page.
I always try to take aperspective of ownership.
Like, okay, if I get a really badresistant comment around DEI, to me that's
a gift because I understand that maybethis isn't being communicated effectively.
(47:28):
And if one person cared enough tocomment like that, then they probably
represent 30% of the population, 20, 50%.
So what can we do tohelp that person see it?
And since I've taken that perspective,I found that it really has helped.
Bring people along and helping bridge thegap between those who are for or against.
(47:51):
Like it's not for or against it.
Maybe just like I need some clarification.
Yours a really good question.
What about providing training?
So the ERG leaders can do so effectivelyrather than assuming since they are
members of those groups that they know.
How do you how to represent leaddiscussions on behalf of the group?
How important is trainingwhen building ERGs
(48:13):
and I had an incident happenwhere, what you're talking about,
and I'll bring this up becauselet's just have this conversation.
Someone, it's tokenization, like ifyou're black, you're gonna go hire,
get people who are black to come workhere . Is that the role of the ERG?
Really?
, it shouldn't be that transactional.
(48:34):
It should be, hey, we wanna have anenvironment where we exist and so other
people will be drawn to being here andwe've gotta prove that it is a safe space.
And so my personal experience withthat is I was invited to be a part
of a board and I didn't know at thetime, I was their diversity recruit.
And I got to , this board and itwas a great social cause and, , a
(48:56):
worldwide type of social cause.
But I was like one of thevery few people of color.
And I realized, , when I gotthere that I was the diversity
recruit and I felt awful.
It was terrible.
And they put me on what you're talkingabout here, the membership committee.
And my strength is actually withfinance, and fundraising and strategy.
But they had, other peoplealready in those spots.
(49:19):
And I was I was horrified.
I didn't realize I wasbrought in with that in mind.
And so we just had to be careful andback to the performative aspect that
ERG should not be utilized as thattool to be the draw for people because
you'll just feel awful about it whenyou realize that's what's being done.
(49:40):
Instead, what I say, and by the way,I get asked about quotas all the time.
Are you advocating for us having quotas?
What I'm advocating for is there to be oneand inclusive and equitable environment.
Two, a removal of bias in the process.
And what will happen is naturallywe'll have more diversity, right?
So that's what I'm advocatingfor and I don't wanna get trapped
(50:04):
by these conversations aroundwhat's the ultimate outcome?
Do we wanna replace everybodyand bring every, no, let's lower
the bar and get more people.
No, I'm saying make it widerso people have been left out
due to bias, have a chance.
And ERGs are a way to communicate wherethere could be bias or a policy issue.
Or it could be like, Hey, you know what?
(50:25):
This is uncomfortable notjust for me but for others.
And the group dynamic is howwe can have safety in the
numbers and absolutely we need
to consider that.
So we have another comment.
I saw the similar challenge whenleadership had stated that DEI is
important, but there were no actions takenother than saying that they are for DEI.
(50:46):
I also noted that there is adifficulty in defining what tenets
of DEI the most important focus.
Yes.
What happened after the tragicmurder of George Floyd is a
lot of companies made promises.
They made a lot of statements andthey made a lot of promises and
employees believed them as they should.
But what happens is whenthose aren't backed up by
(51:08):
actions, we start to not trust.
What has been told to us, and Ihave a model in the book called The
Trifecta of Organizational Change.
And what it does is , it shows us how whenyou don't have everyone on the same page,
you're not gonna get the needle to move.
When you do have everyone onthe same page, then what it
(51:28):
can do is actually, this is it.
It's so simple.
So there's three parts of this triangle.
One is the leadership, theother is employees, and the
third one is the public.
And if you have two of thosethings, you'll get some movement.
But if you have all three, this thinghas gotta turn because it's, the
(51:49):
weight of it is making the momentum.
So if you just have the employees makingnoise, it's not gonna get anywhere.
You have to have at least thetwo leadership and employees.
But the thing that really superchargesit is the public accountability.
So we saw that with a lot ofhigher education and other
school institutions where.
People were making these pagesblack at, fill in the blank,
(52:10):
whatever it was, institution.
And people were honestly typing,their experiences of being a person
of color at these, in particular,being black at these institutions.
And that's public accountability.
So the employees who were alreadyexperiencing that and the leaders who are
being held accountable have to respond.
(52:33):
Mm-hmm.
In order for change to happen, youhave to have, oh, it's about the
statements that were made without action.
That was the question.
. , when you have that at demoralizing,
hugely.
And I think there was, it alsofor me, what I've been tracking
is before this every, there washesitancy to even say anything.
Because we are all good people and weall step for everyone taking comfort
(52:58):
in the generic statements and then.
The murder of George Floyd happens, andit, everyone's , you gotta say something.
It was so interesting that sayingsomething then very quickly became
performative because there wasno . Action and accountability.
. So it's almost like if you takethe decades long time where
(53:19):
nothing was ever said and named.
Now we are naming, we're acknowledgingwe are having those courageous
conversations all very good in progress.
Yes.
But how do we, , step ourselves fromfalling back into those same tropes of
what I call comfort of a select few?
I think it's directly related toquiet quitting because a lot of people
(53:41):
are in a contractual relationshipabout what an environment of work
would look like and maybe for people,
.That hasn't been met.
And one of these things couldbe on the diversity quotient.
Mm-hmm.
What was said and what is beingdone is not the same, right?
Mm-hmm.
And so people are probably notbeing seen or not heard and
(54:03):
not, , tended to cared for, , beingasked , and invited to go back to
work without those needs being met.
So how can we perform work in thesame way and go above and beyond?
It can be difficult.
So we always hold a high bar to actionand accountability in all of our work.
And so we like to end theseconversations with that in mind as well.
(54:25):
For organizations looking to createwithin their organizations, what
is something that they can, what islike one or two small action steps
that they can take immediately?
I
think it's the self-reflectionaround purpose, right?
I think that's the key and.
A really good starting point.
I think a lot of the time we'redoing a lot of like activities,
(54:46):
but it's like why are we doing it?
Is it 'cause it's that heritage month?
And, that's important, but what else, can there be in terms of our purpose?
So I would ask people to self-examinearound that individually and as a group.
I would also say to go get the bookThe Power of Employee resource.
Yes.
Fabulous.
Farzana, thank you so much for joiningus and for everyone listening in,
(55:10):
thank you for your extremelythoughtful questions and reflections.
I think we just had that muchdeeper of a conversation.
What I'm taking away is how the mapof creating those spaces of inclusion
and belonging is continuing to deepenand expand, in really beautiful
ways where everyone is lifted up andthat everyone plays a role in this.
(55:33):
So thank you for your work, Ana.
Thank you for the book,for sharing your wisdom.
We continue the exploration ofworkplace culture with our next
episode intersectional, B-R-G-E-R-G.
Solidarity.
Thank you for listeningto Far Sight Chats.
I hope that this episode is the startto future conversations you have with
(55:54):
your colleagues, teams, and communities.
Subscribe now to Far Sight Chatswherever you get your podcast.
And don't forget to follow us on Instagramand Facebook at Go Far Site LinkedIn
at the Far Site Agency and check outour website Go Far site.com to know
more about who we are and what we do.
(56:14):
Thank you for answering the call.
To do more, do better and do different
Welcome to Far Sight Chats, your Guideto Navigating Complex and Important
Conversations on Workplace Culture.
I'm your host, Farra Bala,founder and CEO of Far Sight.
We specialize in leadership andorganizational development, focusing
on equity, diversity, and inclusion.
As core leadership competencies join usin these conversations that aim to foster,
(00:25):
understanding, growth and positive change.
On today's episode, employee ResourceGroups, I am joined again by Farzana
Ani, who was one of our guestson episode seven, our Children.
The Future, if you are new to theterm employee resource groups or ERGs.
They are foundational in creatingenvironments of inclusion and
(00:48):
belonging within an organization.
They align not just to its organizationalgoals, but also to its EDIA.
That's equity, diversity,inclusion, anti-oppression
strategy, mission, and initiatives.
There are many terms that get usedinterchangeably with ERGs, like affinity
groups, business resource groups, or BRGsemployee networks, or ENSs, and many more.
(01:13):
Each of them have unique nuancesto how these intentional gatherings
are formed and executed based onself-identified and shared identities.
Fno joined me for this conversationin the fall of 2022, where we
discussed the purpose and evolutionof ERGs and the successful outcomes
it can produce when executed well.
(01:34):
A significant challenge that I oftenhear about from my ERG client leaders
is that of engagement and participation.
So as you listen in today, we inviteyou to consider your own take on ERGs
and how often are you engaging withyour own employee resource group?
What else might you need personallyor professionally from your ERG that
(01:56):
might motivate you to get more involved?
And finally, if you are already anexecutive sponsor for your company's
ERG, is your ERG leader being paid fortheir time and expertise, or are they
still being expected to volunteer?
Join us on this journey oflearning and unlearning in
today's episode of Farside Chats.
(02:23):
I'm so excited for this conversation.
It has been something that's beenpercolating for me for a very long time.
And.
I was so glad that Ana was not justavailable, but I love the timing of
this because this book, which I wouldreally encourage everyone to get, the
power of employee resource groups,how people create Authentic Change by
(02:45):
Ana Niani, who is also today's guest.
So please join me in welcoming Ana.
Thank you for being here, andI'm gonna hand it over to you to
please introduce yourself to us.
Farah.
Thank you so much for the invitationto participate and I really am
so excited about this discussion.
, my name is Farzana Ani.
(03:06):
My pronouns are she, her and hers.
I am here on the land of the Tongvapeople in Los Angeles, and I've been
doing diversity, equity, and inclusionconsulting work for over 20 years.
I am the author of the new bookcalled the Power of Employee Resource
Groups, and the subtitle is HowPeople Create Authentic Change.
(03:31):
and I also wrote another booka couple of years ago called
Raising Multiracial Children.
So that book was really the launch into.
How to take information and shareit with the public in a very
consumable and easy to understand way.
So that's my approach with the ERG book isthat there are a lot of great resources,
(03:54):
articles, academic and news publicationsabout employee resource groups.
But what I feel that this bookdoes is it fills the gap of making
the conversation accessible.
And I know one of the questionsis Pana, how did you get into
(04:14):
this work in particular with ERGs?
And I was involved with a lot ofleadership conferences in the DEI
space, and the topic of ERGs keptcoming up over and over again.
And what I found was that there werereally rich conversations in those
conferences that happened offline.
(04:35):
And the difference was they wereamong people from different companies.
So they were having these raw,honest and open conversations and
sharing some really deep stuff.
And I was privy to thoseconversations, privy to those
panels and those deep examinationsof the topic and the industry.
(04:56):
And I was able to parlaythat into consulting work.
To do my own research.
I've read a lot, and you cansee in the book, I have a lot
of references and resources.
So I was on this quest to try to compileeverything and it dawned on me that
having a handbook, a, an easy to read one.
(05:16):
It's a quick read.
It's not that long.
It's 120 pages.
And, , it's , in language thatis similar to what you would hear
if you were talking with me, sothat people can feel comfortable.
And that's
the spirit of my work andthe spirit of the book.
Thank you so much for sharing that, Ana.
(05:37):
Raising multicultural children.
Your first book, can I just sayit came out during the pandemic
and it was so immensely useful.
, I know that I spread the word through myfriends and , I would get screenshots,
, I have a friend of mine who boughtsix, and she's , I'm sharing it with
all of my mother's groups, et cetera.
But in terms of how do you start talkingto your, , your children about race, how
(06:00):
do you start talking to your childrenabout, , the cultural conversations
that have so rapidly evolved?
So highly recommend that one as well.
You actually answered the questionof why are you focused on ERGs?
But before we get into ERGs, this, theselast three years have been very intense
for practitioners, for anyone who'sdoing any kind of work in the EDIA space.
(06:23):
And I wanna know what keeps you going.
, , a couple things
, one thing that has kept me going isthe community that has been supportive,
not only of me, but of each other,whether it be in the healing space or
in, in the case of my background, theAsian Pacific Islander community space.
And I think that, there was a lot ofself care that was needed in that time.
(06:45):
And at the same time, there was alot of momentum around initiatives
that, quite frankly, we've beentalking about for a long time that
didn't get a lot of attention.
So what kept me going was seeingthat rise of the tides, of people
feeling finally acknowledged for whatwe've been saying the whole time.
(07:08):
Also for the momentum thatactually continued so that
people could participate.
People could make the casefor DEI and A and belonging.
And also because there seemed tobe a greater global awareness,
we didn't have to explain asmuch as to why it was important.
(07:31):
And that was a major shift.
It was a catalyst for somany organizations to start.
Initiatives that have been on theback burner have faced resistance.
We saw a lot of people of colorin particular who were finally
acknowledged in roles in their efforts.
And we also saw just , a greaterglobal awareness around things
(07:55):
like anti-blackness, anti-Asianracism, the ongoing need and concern
for the LGBTQ plus community.
And at the same time, there wasthe tragedies that were uncovered
in Canada with people's children.
Whose bodies were found onthe residential school sites.
And I am originally from Canada.
(08:16):
I live in Los Angeles now,but I grew up in Canada.
And as I was writing this book, thetragedies and the horrors of that
recognition were coming to light.
So there was a lot of confluenceof factors that allowed for us
to make the case a lot easier andfor a lot of momentum to continue.
(08:37):
And what kept me hopeful was tosee that impact actually happen.
Thank you for what you do.
'cause it truly takes acollective of everyone , to move
us forward, , as a humanity.
I'd like to start with abaseline of what are ERGs and.
Do you have to be a multimilliondollar , corporation to have them?
(09:00):
What are ERGs who can create ERGs?
Great question as to what are ERGs?
So the term ERG stands for EmployeeResource Group, and they have
been around for decades in somecompanies, Xerox notably was
the first company to start them.
There was, a black caucus thatconverted into an employee research
(09:21):
group and there was a big push aroundadvocacy, and promotion and leadership
of, in particular black and AfricanAmerican people at that company.
And what the employee researchgroups do is create a space for
people of a similar demographic.
To come together in community toraise awareness around causes and
(09:45):
also to have a space for allies toparticipate who may be friends of,
the community, but aren't a part ofthe demographic themselves to really,
continue the efforts around inclusion,belonging, and equity for those people.
So you could have an African Americanblack network, as I just mentioned.
You could have a HispanicLatine community group.
(10:09):
You could have an Asian PacificIslander Heritage Network, you could
have an LGBTQ plus queer Pride group.
There's ones for veterans.
We're seeing neurodiversity ability,accessibility, disability, and
even things like if you're a partof , a certain group like parents
(10:32):
or other causes and interests that.
Maybe aren't top of mind for people,but are a huge part of your identity.
There are groups created around those.
A company of any size can havethem, and sometimes when there's a
smaller company, they combine forces.
You'll have maybe like a bipoc, blackconditionalist, people of color,
(10:52):
ERG instead of each individual one.
Or you might have, , somecollaboration in combination.
, women's networks are usually huge,, as well, and they're sometimes
one of the first ones started justbecause it's, you know, , a large
part of the population as well.
So you'll see a range of them,around any industry or organization.
(11:15):
In our work that we've done, , withAffinity Spaces, caucuses, ERGs, we are
always tying, connecting the dots to.
It being another avenue of creatingthat space of belonging and inclusion
where people feel, seen, heard,valued, , invested in where they work.
(11:35):
What is your perspectiveof the , specifically?
Yeah, there's a lot of terminologythat is being used around them.
So you might have the term caucus,and sometimes that creates,,
a connection to advocacy.
Mm-hmm.
, or maybe they're, based in a highereducation institution, and the
(11:55):
configuration around them allowsfor there to be like an overarching
community identity, , initiative.
And then the caucuses are underneath,sometimes they're called affinity
groups, and we use that when in,in my consulting work, we use that
term affinity group when it's.
, more around gathering of people ratherthan it being strategic or having an
(12:18):
organizational cause that is clarified.
Some people say this is an early versionof an ERGs, it's called an Affinity group.
There are also business resource groups,which are a type of employee research
group, which are focused on, the businesscase, and maybe performing some duties
related to, , a need , at the company.
(12:39):
So, for example, an aerospace companythat I know and work with, they had some
people who were coming from differentcountries and, their ERG helped orient and
onboard those people to American culture.
So that was like very much , abusiness, well, it's a social reason
too, and an employee reason, but theyhad some specific reasons for that.
(13:04):
So sometimes they're calledBRGs and defined as that.
'cause , they're very much organizationaland business related, whereas employee
research groups center, the employee
the needs of the employee andthe involvement of the employee.
So it's organizational businessversus the employee, but er
g should be strategic too.
So I think that's where, mm-hmm.
Maybe there's, a need to focus on howthey can be strategic and organizational
(13:27):
in their objectives as, as well.
What would your recommendationbe in who needs to be involved
at that strategy table?
One of the things that you mentioned inyour book is the need for sponsorship
in terms of does it have not justthe buy-in, but full support from
the leaders of an organization.
And so I get a lot ofquestions in terms of.
(13:50):
What is the right grouping of peoplewho need to be at the decision making
level of here are the ERGs that we,or, whether they're business resource
groups, employee resource groups, employeenetworks, by whatever name who decides.
And that's the balance.
And that's why you can't saythere's one way to create them.
Sometimes the employees are theones who lead the charge and
(14:12):
push leadership to, to have them.
Sometimes the org themselves realizethe value and, and the case that
is made for them and initiates themand taps people and appoints them.
in some cases, it's both.
Or it could be an HR led initiative.
So there isn't one rightway or only way to do them.
(14:34):
So related to that with your questionas to who should be at the table, I
think in an ideal state, every levelof leadership should be at the table
in, in response and in support of ERGs
.But what we see oftentimes is they're siloed, they're
employee run with no support.
Little budget, peopledon't know what they are.
(14:54):
Managers might get annoyed that they'repeople are doing stuff on their lunch
hours or on the side using work time.
So then it doesn't organicallygain the traction it needs to be
successful, and instead it can beseen as an annoyance or a hobby.
And that's really a danger zone, to behonest, for employee resource groups.
(15:19):
So part of my book, although it's peoplecentered and is really talking about
transformational change, it does talkabout operational processes that are
key in order to succeed and thrive.
Let's go
to the evolution ofemployee resource groups.
For someone who's been , doing thiswork with ERGs as long as you have,
(15:39):
and an evolution of , how they havegrown in not just levels of importance
and priority in an organization, butalso sustainability, credibility, and
in terms of being that change agent,
the different types andthe evolution of ERGs.
, it's gotta have to do with thereadiness of the organization.
(16:02):
And I write about, readiness of leadersand individuals in my book because.
If there's a push to make them happen toofast, they can actually flop and fail.
, we've seen this firsthand with someorganizations who had a very budding
and excited, , staff group who wantedto start the ERGs and the org, didn't
(16:26):
have the infrastructure in place, butwe're beholden to what they promised
around the RG and started up the ERG,but, only to find that there wasn't enough
resources or person power to actually leadthem and run them and keep them going.
So then, it can be seen as a pause andI've been brought in by the way, to a
(16:48):
number of organizations who have had tohave that pause and now they're restarting
them under a new brand or a new name,or a new initiative, or a, new HR lead.
So it's very common.
The point about that is really assessingyour own readiness at the organization
and if you have resources and support.
The other part about the evolutionof the ERGs is understanding the goal
(17:09):
and purpose around them at the org.
Mm-hmm.
So is it, again, to serve the employees?
Is it to serve, mostly , thebusiness initiatives.
That's the case.
There really should be some goodcommunication around that so
people are aware and then don'tget disappointed in any direction.
So leaders don't get disappointed.
Members don't get disappointed andit's clear this is what we're here
(17:31):
for, this is what we're doing.
And I've had to sometimes call offERG members and leaders to say, look,
if you wanna do, social cause type ofstuff, it can be a component of this,
but is it in alignment with the org?
And we have to pull it back sometimes andrealize some of that stuff maybe belongs
outside of the org and that's okay.
(17:51):
It's just being clear about it.
You've mentioned, two things, right?
Having what I see as foundational,having resources to create and
sustain an ERG, and the secondis having your goal and purpose.
Can you just cite some re what didresources look like in an organization
if you were to break them down?
(18:11):
Yeah, great question.
Person power.
So like enough people in the ERG, and Ilike to say that you need at least five
to seven people who will join and lead theERG, not just one or two people, right?
The other resource you need is support.
So that comes in the form of perhapshaving an executive sponsor or a champion
(18:32):
or someone who can organizationallybe the guide and mentor to you.
And, from an organizational perspective,open doors for you, whether it be
something simple like getting the roombooked and getting permission to meet
or sending out some correspondencethrough the channels that are more
(18:53):
organizational and not just the group.
So, that's support.
And of course, there's the discussionabout funds as resources, and that
can be just even having events.
It could be in professionaldevelopment monies, it could
be in hiring a guest speaker.
It could be in buying books thatpeople wanna read and reflect on,
or taking an online course online.
(19:14):
Or sending people to conferences.
So there's a lot that goes into beinga part of an employee research group.
And I think sometimes we focus on,okay, is the ERG leader being paid?
But there's also the idea, theother resources available for
the group and the individual.
I wanna zoom in on one of thepossibilities and how you create
(19:37):
an ERG that you mentioned,which is the people ask for it.
And I wanna tie that into a questionthat we have from our audience.
How do d and i staff encourageERG leaders to focus on strategic
needs of the organization?
What support data resources shouldwe give them to assist with the
(19:58):
strategic and business thinking?
There's the ideal state, and then there's,the steps towards that ideal state.
So what I mentioned in, in terms ofall the resources, that's an ideal
state if you have all those in place.
But at minimum, something that is neededis, let's say a charter to start the
(20:18):
group and to clarify the operations ofthe group who's gonna be a part of it.
And.
Once you have that charter, you'llknow if you have the resources you
need because you don't, you'll know if,there's some sort of direct reporting
structure that you are connectedto that can offer that support.
You'll know if you have two to fourofficers who can help run the year.
(20:40):
G you'll know if you have, people whocan serve in the term limit, right?
Mm-hmm.
So that document is helpfulas a roadmap for you.
And then if you think about how manytimes you meet a month, do you have
the, communication infrastructureto hold the meeting or to have
(21:00):
recordings and to share them?
And then all of a sudden you realize,oh, I think we need an internal website.
Do you have the intranet?
They, oh, actually we needsomeone to run the newsletter.
Do we have , a comms, person,do we have the approval ran
into this with some of your Gs?
Do we have the approval to send this out?
So once you start rolling, yourealize the resources you need.
(21:25):
And it's like running a mini organization.
Yeah.
And, you need all parts of thatorganization to really thrive.
You mentioned having that sponsorand support, is that always in the
shape of the, top tier leadership orcould that also be in form of head
of DEI in an organization or both?
(21:45):
Is it in the binary or canit be all of the above?
So that's a touchy
topic.
. Okay.
And I think that there are peoplewho are very in supportive ERGs, but
don't understand the, then there's.
(22:05):
All companies will have aleader who's in support.
It's just a matter of who,is it the CEO themselves?
Is it the vp?
Is it right?
Someone who's in charge of operationsand sees how having people in
alignment could be helpful.
Mm-hmm.
And when you have champions all theway up the chain in the organizational
(22:27):
hierarchy, it's just easier.
If you have someone who's got a chipon their shoulder and has a cause
and wants to transform a policy,then they could be seen as a threat.
And anything they, they docould be seen as lobbying.
And by the way, that'sagainst the law, right?
You can't have like a consortium of peoplethat like interact, use company funds,
(22:52):
lobby, influence the company like that.
There's legal ramifications ofthat, which people don't understand.
So to keep it clean and, and to keep itclear, you have to have some guidelines
that, that govern and, support.
Mm-hmm.
The direction of the ERG and somelevel of organization in terms of
(23:13):
the leader and reporting structure.
I'm telling you, because , I talk toso many organizations that I work with.
And these pain points that you'reraising in this conversation,
Farah are extremely common.
Yeah.
And people wrestle thewith these all the time.
So I'm really glad we'rehaving this conversation.
Ana, I wanna go back to whatyou said around making sure that
(23:35):
there is that organizationalstructure from your sponsor.
Can you break down for me?
What support looks like for sponsorship?
Do they need to be atevery coordination meeting?
Do they need to be getting,every single update of every ERG?
Do they need to be present?
All
right.
(23:55):
So you'll see , some sponsors andI'll get, I'll name a name because
this is, , I really love the ERG.
So, at Experian, , I, I didsome work with Experian.
We had a big ERG summit at Experian.
, they were, their executive sponsorswere so involved that they literally
had a happy hour the day before ora month bef day before and the month
(24:16):
before this big leadership ERG summitand their executive sponsors came,
broke bread, had food and drinks.
. And you'll see them around.
Mm-hmm.
And those types of executive sponsors.
I have a personal connection.
When they care, there's somethingaround them being able to give back.
They mentor and that'sreally up to the person.
That's like a personal reason.
(24:36):
Like I wish I knew thiswhen I started my career.
So I'm gonna in turn help other people.
That's one type of executive pon sponsor.
And they'll do these other parts.
There's the executive sponsor that likethe silent one that, , stays out of the
way, but you call them when you needthem and they'll take care of an issue.
. There's the type of executivesponsor that can help open doors
(24:59):
for, you can go behind the scenes.
And , one company I was workingwith, they had this big parenting
EG summit and , the ERG leaders wentto the executive sponsor and said,
Hey, we need to have good attendance.
We're having farzana come in.
This is like a culmination of a series.
Like we need to have people come.
(25:21):
And so they were able to getthis person literally into
the executive board meeting.
And this GY leader who was a mom toldthis story about how when she was
working from home, because of a lack offlexibility on time and calls, she had
to hear her child cry in the other roomduring bedtime screaming, calling for her.
(25:42):
And she literally had all ofthese executives in tears telling
the story about this policy.
That needed to be changed aroundmeeting time and how late they
stay and, how they take breaks.
And because of that, every singleexecutive in that room, this gimme
chills to say, pledged to bring, 50 toa hundred people from their department.
(26:04):
We had three to 400 peopleon a call around parenting.
And I was so impressed with that advocacy.
But it wasn't just her.
It was the doors open to herfrom the executive sponsor.
And that's again, back to the hopefulnessI have around DEI, ERGs in particular.
(26:25):
That kind of thing makes my heart soarbecause I know that there are people,
like each of the people here today whocan have, once that door's open or they
open it themselves, can make that type ofimpact, can change organizational culture
to help people like us who have multipleidentities that we're hiding at all times.
And that's why we need ERGs.
(26:46):
It's a very.
Very simple, straightforward reasonthat I have behind them is that we
need to have people represented, theirvoices heard and their needs met.
And the only way we can do that is ifwe come together and express and have
an organizational , method to address,each item, each identity, and each cause.
Thank you.
(27:06):
I wanna flip it now to potentialresistances from sponsorship.
Something that we've encountered, eventhough, like you said, , the conversations
have gone on we don't have to make thecase as much it is being asked for.
The importance of it isabsolutely recognized.
We still get spaces, not always, butit does exist where it's about, we
(27:30):
don't wanna divide the organization.
We are already doing a lotof organizational development
and training and education.
It will further go down in silos.
Your take on why the resistance,what's behind it, how the people
can influence and push through
(27:51):
if it is possible.
In my other book on raising multiracialchildren, the simple example, I give
is that parents avoid talking aboutrace with their kids because they
don't want people to feel othered.
But the studies show that when youdon't, the default time that people
end up talking to their kids aboutrace or religion or any type of
(28:12):
difference is when there's an incident.
That's the only time theystart the conversation.
And by and large, then that meansthat kids from marginalized identities
have the talk earlier than kidsfrom dominant identities, right?
So you have kids of color who are havingto deal with race and racial dynamics
earlier than kids who are white.
So the same thing happens.
(28:33):
And I've never made this parallel outloud, so I'm glad that this is being said.
The same thing happens in organizationswhen we just have to put our heads down
and work, and we don't talk about theissues until there's an actual incident.
And in the case of George Floyd,that was a big incident that was
televised and broadcast virally andnone of us could turn away from.
(28:55):
But there are incidents all theway along a person's life and,
professional work experience.
So ERGs are a way to proactively havethat conversation before it gets to
the point where there's an incidentand now we're in crisis control.
So the resistance, I actually understandthe fear around it, is that if we
(29:16):
start talking about it or doingthis, we're gonna make a problem.
But what people don't understand isthat the problem's already there.
And when you're in a dominantidentity, just like those parents.
We choose not to talk about it ora leader or an executive and you
say, I don't wanna talk about it.
You're being like those parentsputting it up until there's a problem.
(29:36):
And guess what?
That's when you have to callsomeone to remedy, the issue.
And by then it, it's pretty bad.
Thanks for laying it out that way.
Speaking of support, can we talkabout where ERGs are at in 2022
regarding funding incentive forERG leaders versus free labor?
Absolutely EER G leaders shouldhave some sort of, what I'd like
(30:01):
to say, reward or recognition now.
How people define that canbe different depending on the
organization or the person themselves.
So the reward could be paid, but what I'veseen some people have is a spot bonus.
What I've seen some people have isit tied to their performance review
(30:23):
and an increase or promotion happen.
There also can be reward andrecognition through other ways.
It could be through recognition,events, awards, celebrations.
I would say internally, perhapsyou are tapped for a role in your
occupation that you might not have been.
Mm-hmm.
And we don't count that when wethink about reward a lot of the time.
(30:46):
But those are the organicways that reward shows up.
And I always ask this questionfor ERG leaders, and I
always get the same response.
I ask, do you have your ERG roll?
On your LinkedIn profile and,eight to nine people outta
10 haven't put it on there.
(31:08):
And to me, I think part of it is usowning that this is something to be
proud of and it is a part of our work andstating it as so, and modeling that to
our direct, , supervisors and managers.
So it's not something we're hidingdoing at the side of our desk.
We're like doing on our lunchand like secretly organizing
(31:29):
so we don't get in trouble.
So I think it's both ways.
I think it's , how we receive thatand then also how it's positioned and
absolutely the organization shouldcome up with some sort of plan.
It's different for everyone and it'shard because who do you compensate?
You compensate just theleaders but not the volunteers.
And then, so that slippery slopeis what makes it difficult.
(31:50):
And that's up to each organization.
Yeah.
I'm such an advocate forreward and recognition.
, and
to clarify, ERGs existence historicallywithin organizations has been on a
volunteer basis, that's how it started.
And it's only, speaking of evolution,it's in the recent path that
these conversations of financialcompensation are coming in even more
(32:12):
in terms of adding them to budgets.
How do we avoid the trope of ERGs beingused as a diversity optics by the
company organization?, I guess thisgets to the authentic change part of,
your book.
Great question.
Yes.
Authentic change, true transformation isnot something that is done lightly and
(32:34):
people can see through it when you're not.
So, when it is performative, I wouldsay number one, it doesn't work.
Number two, people can tell.
So I think with ERG, , there's no wayfor it to be performative , and survive.
I think when things are set up andpeople start to recognize maybe
(32:55):
that , it's going off course , andwhat you're describing here, they
start to actually not participate.
And there was a study done from aconsulting research company that
showed that this is the same case forpeople who are entering orgs who want
to see if the DEI initiatives areactually substantial and authentic.
(33:16):
And what they're pro, what they'reshowing is that when someone who's
hiring a person of color says, we havea DEI plan and program, and here's the
business case for it, that's actually aturnoff for people of color candidates.
They do not like.
In this study they showed, they donot like hearing the business case.
(33:39):
Or anything, DEI, andI've seen that in ERGs.
I was, , a speaker at an event and theyshowed this model, which had talked about,
, commerce , and the business case and theEER G leaders put a poll , in the chat,
Hey, which of these are important, theorganization culture or us as people?
And it was extremely low onthe commerce business side.
(34:04):
There's no one who was interested in that.
Everybody was interested , in communitybuilding and personal development.
So then what that means is , it's not atopic that you lead out , with people in
this current environment.
I love that question.
And then the on the other side, somethingthat we experienced in the recent past
(34:24):
was we got brought in to help createand deepen ERGs within an organization.
There was an expectationof immediate impact.
Okay.
These ERGs have met for a couple of times.
What was the impact?
Why do we need to keep going?
So there was, can you speak a littlebit to that in terms of from the
(34:46):
outside, there is sponsorship, thereis support, there is investment,
and then this level of pressureand urgency of what did this do?
What did this do at every step?
Is that reasonable?
Is that, not,
I think we have to have some innerreflection around, and by the
(35:07):
way, I talk about this in my book,like why ERGs are there, and I
have a model called the five Ps.
The first one is purpose andwe need to come back to that.
The second one has to do with peoplewho's involved, who are the stakeholders.
The third has to do with processes.
That aren't in place.
(35:27):
The fourth has to do withplanning, and fifth has to do with
priorities around all of the above.
So when we review those and match itup against what you're asking here,
it starts to illuminate gaps thatwe might have in the plan and the
strategy and a lot of, I think, amismatch of expectations, to be honest.
(35:49):
We've been talking aboutinvestments, right?
In terms of compensation.
What do investmentstowards ERGs look like?
Should companies compensate people?
And what if, and again, this is goingback to the, what about small companies?
What if they don't have enough of abudget or they're a small startup?
An ERG strategy without a DEI strategy, is something that can be a red flag.
(36:13):
And when you have the burden of DEIinitiatives only run by employee research
group leaders like the ERG leaders from,a certain group are leading the charge on
awareness of something that's a problem.
And so the first investmentreally is in the structure.
How is this structured?
How is it framed?
(36:34):
What support does a group have?
I think , the second investment thatmaybe directly we're talking about
here, is the money put into it.
And that can be things thatare visible and are invisible.
So it could be that the companyneeds to hire a lawyer to
structure, the terminology andthe charters to be acceptable and.
(36:59):
Worthwhile.
That's the kind of stuff, youdon't hear about or talk about.
That's an investment.
Mm-hmm.
that's what a company has todo behind the scenes, right?
Is review that stuff.
Another investment is time.
It's allocating, an executivesponsor or other person, a DEI
leader or HR leader to manage this.
(37:19):
So that FTE dedication,that's an investment.
What we see is just the budgetat the end of the day, what
ERGs are allowed to manage.
But a lot of time companiesI think, are good with any
type of idea that makes sense.
They will able be able to find fundingand if they can't have it through their
regular ERG budget, these executives canwrite it off on their own departments.
(37:41):
I've seen that happen where they'relike, oh, do we need a little more?
Let me actually pledge some PDprofessional development money that I
had parked, and I'm gonna bring all mypeople to this too, in addition to the
ERG and let's just do a big group effort.
People have, the ability to do that.
So there's been a strategy in this, andI think when we use the word park, like
(38:05):
park ourselves in looking at this in avery specific and actually limited way,
I think it removes a creative possibilitythat I'm trying to have in the book to
inspire, the ability for us to expandand think wider and think broader.
So I, I just, I look at it as a challenge.
(38:26):
Something that you puzzle piece outand you bring, a lot of positivity
to in order to make it happen.
Have you discussed employee unionization?
Yeah, those are partly the purview ofthe company and some of it has to do
with a fear around people organizing.
(38:48):
So there is, a fine linebetween the organizing and the
support at an organization.
So some of that has to do with thecomfort around the group coming together.
Wanna move to the people involved inan ERG In terms of engagement, this
(39:08):
is something that again, we've beenbrought in for a couple of times as well.
We have all of this stuff in place.
And, how do we keep people engaged?
How do we keep them motivated andcommitted wherein, it's not a nice
to have, but there is a level ofthat employee responsibility, right?
When it centers the person,when it centers the connection
(39:31):
that we employee in business.
So yeah, thoughts on engagement,sustaining engagement.
And that's probably one of the numberone questions your GE leaders ask
is how to keep the membership going.
So that's one aspect, right?
Is recruitment for peopleto be a part of it.
But then what you're talking about isengagement once they're in and there's a
(39:54):
big gap between people coming to be a partof the group and then also participating.
So I think when people thinkof engagement, is it attendance
or are you thinking about.
The type of quality conversationyou're having, is it who shows up
to the event and bring someone else?
(40:16):
Harley Davidson had this really coolprogram where at their ERG event, they
had bring a friend, like a blessed one,and then that encouraged engagement.
So, it's about the how andalso what are we expecting?
Because right now there's thisconcept, I don't know if everyone's
seen this in the news, they're talkingabout quiet, quitting, and quiet.
Quitting is people who arestill at the job, but they're
(40:38):
not going above and beyond justthe basic minimum items, right?
So if we're seeing that in the overallworkplace, then how much can we
really require or expect from peopledoing an additional item like ERGs?
So I think it's coming back tothe level setting around it.
(41:03):
speaking of engagement again.
Again, there was this huge influxneed, wanting to gather in spaces
of affinity to talk, right?
Have those courageous conversations.
We were hearing it all the timein the media, in our groups.
We gotta have morecourageous conversations.
I wanna pivot to the role of whitespaces specifically because at the
(41:27):
end of the day, we're talking aboutcreating spaces of inclusion, belonging.
ERG is being one avenue to dothat, and every ERG has a different
motivation, to your point,different goal, different purpose.
What is an overarching common themerunning through the establishing and
(41:52):
sustaining of white ERGs in organizations?
Yeah, those are, I think a lotof organizations are curious
about when a white ERG is, andwhat they're supposed to do.
I've seen them developed in parallelwith men for women type of ERGs,
and not saying that there's onlya binary gender identity, but
(42:14):
let's say that's how it's worded.
I, I realize there's a spectrum ofgender identity, but what they show
is that sometimes the men, for womenis a way to engage in male allyship.
And I think in parallel the white allytype of groups for people of color
groups, it's supposed to be not only tobe in support or an ally or advocate,
(42:38):
but it's also for their own learning,and their own awareness and their own
education and their own processing.
And what each of those types of groupsdoes is it preserves a space for people
to share their fears and vulnerabilityand questions and education without
burdening the other group, so that isthe purpose and the setup, how that's
(42:59):
received can be different for each org.
It's definitely, of course, a sensitivetopic and starts to create that
conversation around is this divisiveand what is the purpose of this?
So I think it comes back to thereadiness of the organization and what
the goal is that they have around them.
I'm curious, is there a needfor a diversity council at the
(43:21):
institutional level when there isalready a DEI office plus ERGs?
Does it create more extraneous structure?
There definitely needs to be oversight.
So , if the council is clear, maybethey're working council, if they're clear
about the reporting, that's one method.
Sometimes they're hands off though ifit's grassroots and they need guidance,
(43:45):
a lot of er g members are not, , managersor they're not leaders, , per se.
So they're, frontline employees, they'reindividual contributors and they're
joining and they're doing somethingnew like this for the first time.
It's hard, and I think the expectationthat they'll just understand everything
without training or onboarding,really needs us to look at the
(44:06):
support structure and if they doneed an HR DEI leader to help them.
You know, what this, is reminding meof is, and this is not the topic for
today, but , the amount of new roles.
Whether it's DEI, council heads ofDEI that got created in the last three
years with no clear, , guidelinesor expectations of role access
(44:32):
to power and decision making.
, and it was truly for optics and how all ofthose roles, , currently are experiencing
deep spaces of burnout, right?
So that term extraneous structure, that'swhat it, and coming back to what we were
talking about, that it is all connected.
What is that purpose,,that you speak of Ana?
Let's ground, and not just ERGpurpose, but relationality, but we,
(44:54):
ERG and council, ERG and EDI, office,ERG, and hr, all of it together.
, and if those conversationsare not happening.
That's what I'm taking away Faranafrom everything that , you've talked
about in the five Ps of those initialconversations are what ground you in,
not just how you move forward, butalso opening you up to creativity.
(45:17):
.When you set that foundation, call it visioning, call it imagining, aspiring
to, okay, here is who we wanna be andhow we wanna do it, there is more room
to play and collaborate even couldperhaps the council act as a buffer
between ERGs and hr. Do you haveany opinion or perspective on that
(45:37):
buffer or, , advocate or soundingboard or steering committee?
There's a lot of experiencesof DEI councils in terms of
how they actually perform.
. Some are working committeesthat are stand-ins for when
there isn't a DEI or HR leader.
(45:58):
And that could be, 'cause thecompany organization is in
early formation around DEI.
Mm-hmm.
Um, so if that gets stood up first,then, that's what they serve as.
If they're further, if the ERG and DEIstrategy is further along than a DEI
council can be the steering for yourreporting strategy, how it connects to the
(46:19):
company overall benchmarks for success.
it's, it can be very strategic.
So it just depends who's on thecouncil, and who the rolling
the reporting rolls up to.
If it's the CEO themselves.
What , are some similarities you'veencountered across generations
industries, when it comes to obstacles,when initiating DEI structure,
(46:41):
it's what we said earlieraround resistance and what I
said earlier about readiness.
So if people are nervous about it,they're gonna be nervous about any
part of it, including your cheese.
But then it's up to all of us tocommunicate and advocate for the
experience of how this is useful.
(47:03):
And so I think we need to have some innerreflection around understanding that not
everyone's on the same page, and then howwe can get them to be on the same page.
I always try to take aperspective of ownership.
Like, okay, if I get a really badresistant comment around DEI, to me that's
a gift because I understand that maybethis isn't being communicated effectively.
(47:28):
And if one person cared enough tocomment like that, then they probably
represent 30% of the population, 20, 50%.
So what can we do tohelp that person see it?
And since I've taken that perspective,I found that it really has helped.
Bring people along and helping bridge thegap between those who are for or against.
(47:51):
Like it's not for or against it.
Maybe just like I need some clarification.
Yours a really good question.
What about providing training?
So the ERG leaders can do so effectivelyrather than assuming since they are
members of those groups that they know.
How do you how to represent leaddiscussions on behalf of the group?
How important is trainingwhen building ERGs
(48:13):
and I had an incident happenwhere, what you're talking about,
and I'll bring this up becauselet's just have this conversation.
Someone, it's tokenization, like ifyou're black, you're gonna go hire,
get people who are black to come workhere . Is that the role of the ERG?
Really?
, it shouldn't be that transactional.
(48:34):
It should be, hey, we wanna have anenvironment where we exist and so other
people will be drawn to being here andwe've gotta prove that it is a safe space.
And so my personal experience withthat is I was invited to be a part
of a board and I didn't know at thetime, I was their diversity recruit.
And I got to , this board and itwas a great social cause and, , a
(48:56):
worldwide type of social cause.
But I was like one of thevery few people of color.
And I realized, , when I gotthere that I was the diversity
recruit and I felt awful.
It was terrible.
And they put me on what you're talkingabout here, the membership committee.
And my strength is actually withfinance, and fundraising and strategy.
But they had, other peoplealready in those spots.
(49:19):
And I was I was horrified.
I didn't realize I wasbrought in with that in mind.
And so we just had to be careful andback to the performative aspect that
ERG should not be utilized as thattool to be the draw for people because
you'll just feel awful about it whenyou realize that's what's being done.
(49:40):
Instead, what I say, and by the way,I get asked about quotas all the time.
Are you advocating for us having quotas?
What I'm advocating for is there to be oneand inclusive and equitable environment.
Two, a removal of bias in the process.
And what will happen is naturallywe'll have more diversity, right?
So that's what I'm advocatingfor and I don't wanna get trapped
(50:04):
by these conversations aroundwhat's the ultimate outcome?
Do we wanna replace everybodyand bring every, no, let's lower
the bar and get more people.
No, I'm saying make it widerso people have been left out
due to bias, have a chance.
And ERGs are a way to communicate wherethere could be bias or a policy issue.
Or it could be like, Hey, you know what?
(50:25):
This is uncomfortable notjust for me but for others.
And the group dynamic is howwe can have safety in the
numbers and absolutely we need
to consider that.
So we have another comment.
I saw the similar challenge whenleadership had stated that DEI is
important, but there were no actions takenother than saying that they are for DEI.
(50:46):
I also noted that there is adifficulty in defining what tenets
of DEI the most important focus.
Yes.
What happened after the tragicmurder of George Floyd is a
lot of companies made promises.
They made a lot of statements andthey made a lot of promises and
employees believed them as they should.
But what happens is whenthose aren't backed up by
(51:08):
actions, we start to not trust.
What has been told to us, and Ihave a model in the book called The
Trifecta of Organizational Change.
And what it does is , it shows us how whenyou don't have everyone on the same page,
you're not gonna get the needle to move.
When you do have everyone onthe same page, then what it
(51:28):
can do is actually, this is it.
It's so simple.
So there's three parts of this triangle.
One is the leadership, theother is employees, and the
third one is the public.
And if you have two of thosethings, you'll get some movement.
But if you have all three, this thinghas gotta turn because it's, the
(51:49):
weight of it is making the momentum.
So if you just have the employees makingnoise, it's not gonna get anywhere.
You have to have at least thetwo leadership and employees.
But the thing that really superchargesit is the public accountability.
So we saw that with a lot ofhigher education and other
school institutions where.
People were making these pagesblack at, fill in the blank,
(52:10):
whatever it was, institution.
And people were honestly typing,their experiences of being a person
of color at these, in particular,being black at these institutions.
And that's public accountability.
So the employees who were alreadyexperiencing that and the leaders who are
being held accountable have to respond.
(52:33):
Mm-hmm.
In order for change to happen, youhave to have, oh, it's about the
statements that were made without action.
That was the question.
. , when you have that at demoralizing,
hugely.
And I think there was, it alsofor me, what I've been tracking
is before this every, there washesitancy to even say anything.
Because we are all good people and weall step for everyone taking comfort
(52:58):
in the generic statements and then.
The murder of George Floyd happens, andit, everyone's , you gotta say something.
It was so interesting that sayingsomething then very quickly became
performative because there wasno . Action and accountability.
. So it's almost like if you takethe decades long time where
(53:19):
nothing was ever said and named.
Now we are naming, we're acknowledgingwe are having those courageous
conversations all very good in progress.
Yes.
But how do we, , step ourselves fromfalling back into those same tropes of
what I call comfort of a select few?
I think it's directly related toquiet quitting because a lot of people
(53:41):
are in a contractual relationshipabout what an environment of work
would look like and maybe for people,
.That hasn't been met.
And one of these things couldbe on the diversity quotient.
Mm-hmm.
What was said and what is beingdone is not the same, right?
Mm-hmm.
And so people are probably notbeing seen or not heard and
(54:03):
not, , tended to cared for, , beingasked , and invited to go back to
work without those needs being met.
So how can we perform work in thesame way and go above and beyond?
It can be difficult.
So we always hold a high bar to actionand accountability in all of our work.
And so we like to end theseconversations with that in mind as well.
(54:25):
For organizations looking to createwithin their organizations, what
is something that they can, what islike one or two small action steps
that they can take immediately?
I
think it's the self-reflectionaround purpose, right?
I think that's the key and.
A really good starting point.
I think a lot of the time we'redoing a lot of like activities,
(54:46):
but it's like why are we doing it?
Is it 'cause it's that heritage month?
And, that's important, but what else, can there be in terms of our purpose?
So I would ask people to self-examinearound that individually and as a group.
I would also say to go get the bookThe Power of Employee resource.
Yes.
Fabulous.
Farzana, thank you so much for joiningus and for everyone listening in,
(55:10):
thank you for your extremelythoughtful questions and reflections.
I think we just had that muchdeeper of a conversation.
What I'm taking away is how the mapof creating those spaces of inclusion
and belonging is continuing to deepenand expand, in really beautiful
ways where everyone is lifted up andthat everyone plays a role in this.
(55:33):
So thank you for your work, Ana.
Thank you for the book,for sharing your wisdom.
We continue the exploration ofworkplace culture with our next
episode intersectional, B-R-G-E-R-G.
Solidarity.
Thank you for listeningto Far Sight Chats.
I hope that this episode is the startto future conversations you have with
(55:54):
your colleagues, teams, and communities.
Subscribe now to Far Sight Chatswherever you get your podcast.
And don't forget to follow us on Instagramand Facebook at Go Far Site LinkedIn
at the Far Site Agency and check outour website Go Far site.com to know
more about who we are and what we do.
(56:14):
Thank you for answering the call.
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