May 23, 2025 • 49 mins
In this episode of FARSIGHT Chats, host Farah Bala is joined by Jennifer Brown, a thought leader in diversity, equity, and inclusion. The discussion is centered around the urgency of inclusive leadership in today's climate while exploring Jennifer's book, How To Be An Inclusive Leader. They explore topics such as the inclusive leadership continuum, the impact of imposter syndrome on leadership resilience, and the need for integrating equity, diversity, inclusion, and anti-oppression (EDIA) as core leadership competencies. Jennifer shares her journey in the DEI (Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion) space, the relevance of updating her book, and her views on allyship, advocacy, and creating sustainable change within organizations. She shares insights on how individuals at all levels can contribute to positive, lasting change. The conversation delves into the complexities of marginalized identities, allyship, and the necessity of strategic, collective action.
| KEY TOPICS DISCUSSED |
Inclusive Leadership Defined
- Leadership rooted in equity, diversity, inclusion, and anti-oppression (EDIA)
- Embedding EDIA as a core leadership competency for healthy workplace culture
The Inclusive Leadership Continuum
- Four stages: Unaware → Aware → Active → Advocate
- A personal and non-linear journey that all leaders move through
Urgency of Inclusive Leadership
- The need for leaders to go beyond performative actions
- Inclusive leadership tied to business outcomes like retention, innovation, and revenue
Imposter Syndrome & Personal Barriers
- Internalized scarcity and shame hinder inclusive leadership
- Everyone has a story worth sharing that can drive inclusion
From Fear to Courage
- Transitioning from ego and fear to vulnerability, authenticity, and humility
- Leadership as a journey of unlearning and relearning
Allyship and Advocacy
- Allyship is earned, not claimed; must be practiced continuously
- Advocates should use their privilege strategically and humbly, avoiding saviorism
Using Privilege for Change
- Recognizing and leveraging one’s privileges (e.g., race, education, gender alignment) to open doors for others
- Everyone, regardless of position or seniority, has a role to play
Collective Change-Making
- Change is more effective when done in coalitions
- Building internal networks and identifying power dynamics is crucial for sustained DEI efforts
The Risk of Status Quo
- Leaders who ignore inclusive practices risk obsolescence
- Stagnant DEI efforts can harm both people and business
Sustainable DEI Strategy
- Importance of long-term, strategic planning over short-term visibility
- DEI must be integrated into core business functions and not left to marginalized groups
| SHOW NOTES |
00:00 Welcome to Farsight Chats
00:30 Introduction to Inclusive Leadership
02:34 Jennifer Brown's Journey in DEI
04:02 The Urgency of Inclusive Leadership
10:19 Navigating Challenges in DEI Work
11:58 Understanding the Inclusive Leadership Continuum
20:30 The Role of Privilege in Advocacy
26:12 Understanding the Weight of Worthiness
26:43 The Unique Power of Individual Voices
28:08 Advocacy and Humility
28:44 Balancing Ego and Advocacy
32:38 The Role of Allies and Advocates
37:41 The Complexity of Corporate DEI
40:03 Building Effective Coalitions for Change
46:50 Sustaining Long-Term Change
48:38 Conclusion and Future
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:02):
Welcome to Farsight Chats, your guideto navigating complex and important
conversations on workplace culture.
I'm your host, Farah Bala,founder and CEO of Farsight.
We specialize in leadership andorganizational development, focusing
on equity, diversity, and inclusionas core leadership competencies.
(00:24):
Join us in these conversationsthat aim to foster understanding
growth and positive change
On today's episode, inclusive leadership.
I am joined by friend of Farsight,author and thought leader, Jennifer
Brown, who you'll remember fromepisode 16, where she interviewed me
for her podcast, the will to change.
(00:44):
We also celebrated the launch ofJennifer's book, How to Be an Inclusive
Leader, that released in the fall of 2022.
And as we always do, we had a wideranging conversation exploring not
just her book and her inclusiveleadership continuum, but also the
urgent need for inclusive leadership.
And three years later, in 2025, thisurgency feels especially prescient.
(01:09):
We also discussed how imposter syndromemight impact the resilience and courage
needed to lead with an inclusive mindset.
All our work at Farsight isabout embedding EDIA core
competencies within leadership.
That's equity, diversity,inclusion, anti oppression.
It is the only data backed pathto creating healthy workplace
(01:30):
culture where everyone thrives.
And as I often say, when our peoplethrive, our business thrives.
So as you listen in today, we invite youto consider how are you building your own
core competencies of inclusive leadership?
What feedback loops have youcreated within your teams or
departments where you are gettingreal time impact of your leadership?
(01:53):
How would others on your teamdescribe you as an inclusive leader?
This is a must in ensuring that yourimpact aligns with your intentions.
So join us on this journeyof learning and unlearning in
today's episode of Farsight Chats.
I am so excited for today'sconversation with Jennifer Brown.
(02:17):
I am so thrilled.
Congratulations on your book one ofyour many books, How to Be an Inclusive
Leader, that has just come out as asecond edition, and I had the deep honor
of joining your launch event, so I'mgoing to hand over the microphone to you.
To you.
Tell us who you are.
What do you do?
(02:37):
Thank you.
Hello, everybody.
I'm happy to be here.
I have been in the DEI spacefor over 20 years at this point.
Having kind of entered it as a newly outprofessional as the LGBTQ plus community.
Person and member of that communityand very much full of my activism and
advocacy and trying to use whateverI could from my community networks to
(03:00):
influence employers to be more equitable.
For LGBTQ plus people.
So that was where I kind of cut myteeth and I started working in ERGs
back then and my consulting, onething led to another and we ended
up becoming a company that focuseson DEI strategy across the board.
I saw a small group of people influence.
Entire companies and around their policyand to be a part of that, way before
(03:23):
gay marriage, way before a lot of theseother things it was really amazing and
showed me we could each use our voicestrategically and get things done and
also inform large entities, how they needto treat us more respectfully and how
they need to engage with our community.
And this is learnings thatI've never forgotten today.
I run a company with lots ofwonderful, amazing people in it.
(03:46):
We consult, we build strategy.
We do training and education.
I speak, and obviously I writebooks and I love writing books so.
My first question foryou is, about your book.
You had written the first edition andnow you've come out with a second.
And , at your events a coupleof weeks ago, you said there
was an urgency for leadership.
(04:08):
So I'm curious.
to hear from you.
Why a second edition?
What have you been grapplingwith that urgency yourself?
Just if you could let us into the why andwhat's different about this book for you.
I always have felt the urgency, honestly.
You know, a lot of us in thiswork could see the crisis.
Before it became the crisis thateverybody was talking about.
(04:31):
I know, that first one, I didn't knowso much when I wrote the first one,
honestly, I was a little even thoughI've been in the work for a really long
time, I feel the last couple of yearsreally deepened all of us and me having
taught it, taught that model from thatbook in my keynotes and just spoken
to people hundreds of times in the lastcouple of years, it's brought into my
(04:51):
consciousness, my awareness, my courage,my specificity, the stories that I tell.
And I wanted that to be reflected andupdated if that book were the one kind
of magnum opus of me, I wanted to, geta second shot at it, and that was just
so so it was an honor and excitingwhen the publisher was like sell your
(05:13):
editor was like so maybe you want todo a second edition, instead of a new
one at the time we thought it might be10 percent different but it ended up
being like 60 or 70 percent different.
And it was a lot of work, it was hardto excise and make room for new content
and say goodbye to old stuff that Iknew had really found an audience, but
I was able to keep the main structure inplace, which is the four part continuum
(05:37):
that people really taken to that really,they really understand and appreciate.
I'm deeply appreciating yourtransparency with, you know, I didn't
know what I was doing at the time.
But that's, I think that's therole when you're on a journey
as a practitioner, right?
Right.
It's that constant growingand evolving space.
Can you name for us what were thosechunks that you say you put away because
(06:00):
they had become more, within the languageand what specifically did you prioritize
in this book, like content wise?
, I think we wanted to, and I haveto give credit to my writing team
at JVC, which was led by KarenDoms, who has a research focus.
And I think the amalgam of ourwriting and what we wanted to include
(06:22):
reflects that, which , I've alwayswritten in a team approach, honestly.
So that was unique and cool to have that.
And, we looked at stories togetherand chose obviously more updated ones,
more hard hitting ones around, forexample, social responsibility, thinking
about companies taking a stand on,gun laws, like Dick's Sporting Goods,
who, made some pretty bold moves afterI think Parkland and really put a
(06:46):
lot at stake relating to their stanceon an issue that would theoretically
impact their business directly.
And so choosing stories that reallycapture the tension of this moment, the
imperative and the urgency of takinga stand because your employees and
your customers want to see that andthen coping with the consequences.
(07:07):
And we're seeing this still, obviouslywith the Dobbs decision and companies
like deciding, how, to what degree do theywant to really put themselves out there
and what are they willing to put at risk.
Stories like that
Lots more content on equity.
I think, a lot more specificityaround what is broken and what needs
to be fixed and who fixes it, by theway, PS us, like each of us in our
(07:29):
role, hence the subtitle of the book,your role, always really important.
And even more important now, becauseif every passing year we can rely,
we need more help to accelerate.
Where we need to go and wecannot leave it to the DNI team.
We can't leave it to theemployee resource groups.
We can't leave it to the, black and Brown,talent in our workforce to explain to us
(07:54):
like , why, and how we need to be better.
We just, we don't have time, andthe workforce is changing rapidly.
It expects different things.
People are coming and going from companiesand organizations because of, culture.
Yeah.
And so , we're in a crisis.
I'm not sure leadershipreally sees it that way.
Because it's so easy to be comfortablewhen , you're in a system that feels
(08:18):
familiar and it's worked for you and, , Iget the sense that like people think
that status quo will continue to suffice.
Yeah.
So I often feel like I'm thereality bites for a person.
I love that you say we don't have time.
What according to you happenswhen we run out of time?
We squander human potentialand , , we exhaust people and to.
(08:42):
We squander gifts and zones ofgenius and we don't reach customers.
So the problem for the company, of course,selfishly for them is where we're going to
miss out on this and this from a revenueperspective, from a product's perspective,
from innovation getting the best talent.
So those are pain points for theorganization, but I think like the bigger,
(09:02):
maybe what you're asking though, is thebigger cost the toll on humans of putting
so much time in an environment thatdoesn't see you, that doesn't hear you,
that doesn't enable you to contribute.
Doesn't generate enough psychologicalsafety to make you really want to stay and
give that extra effort, that discretionaryeffort that is available to all of
(09:24):
us, but that I think we choose everyday, whether we bring it or we don't.
And, if you're a leader thatsays none of this matters, then
I think your days are numbered.
That's the leader.
You know, what I'm getting fromwhat you're saying is people
leadership is inclusive leadership.
When you focus on your people,everyone thrives, including
your business, including yourretention and loyalty and growth.
It's revenue.
(09:45):
And we don't focus on people,the collective versus the
individualized incentives.
You just bring stuff down.
How do you in your work, Jennifer,deal with those voices that say, I
don't see why this is important orwhy this has been given importance.
There's been a lot of attack on EDI work.
(10:06):
Historically, especially in the lastfew years on practitioners on, some
of our peers, very public attacks.
So , how do you manage that?
How do you perceive that?
How do you work through that?
I dread those attacks.
I, think there've been little thingshere and there, never anything very large,
but I think all of us are concerned andthe attacks can come from all kinds of
(10:30):
places to, I can deal with attacks fromthe right very easily because, I just
feel like we're on different, journeys.
And we see the world differently.
But I think when they come from within,when they come from a community that you
feel so much in solidarity with and area part of that can be really devastating.
That's call out culture, right?
That's cancel culture.
(10:50):
It's the means.
Some people choose to create change.
But I choose a different path.
I like to teach through illuminatingthings and inviting things and
seeing the shared humanity, seeingthe humanity and others, and also
seeing the mistakes that we make.
And the learnings that we need andknowing that we need to have space to
hear that and to adjust and that, it'sdifficult to learn and change from a
(11:14):
place of shame, almost impossible.
I know that because that's beentrue for me, and I am feeling
when I'm deep in that dark place.
I'm pretty incapable of doing much.
And so while it's important tolet yourself go to where you need
to go, it's important also topick yourself up and get back in.
And we also need to be humble when wethink that we are the one that with all
(11:34):
the answers, we need to remind ourselvesthat we don't have all the answers.
And I think we need to treat othersand give that feedback to others
as we would like to receive it.
With something that we always say isit takes everyone to bring everyone
along and no one should be leftbehind in this journey, irrespective
of where they're coming from orwhere they are at in the journey.
So I appreciate hearing that from you.
(11:57):
The continuum.
Can you introduce us to yourcontinuum a little bit and where
you are hoping to lead your audiencethrough that in terms of their own
growth and like you said their rolein creating inclusive leadership.
I really wanted to write something foror create something for the individual
learner, who's, who is incompetent.
(12:18):
And I don't say thatas a derogatory thing.
I mean, there's plenty ofthings we are incompetent in.
We don't have the skill.
And so the four stages are unaware,aware, active, and advocate, and
they really mirror and map my stages.
I feel myself toggling backand forth between them.
And so it's very personal for me.
And I tried to keep it simple andmemorable and also be judgment free.
(12:40):
In terms of where we are.
So unaware is I don'tknow there's a problem.
I disagree that it's a problem.
It can be, I'm a good person,and I'm trying, but not really.
Or somebody else's job, it's not mine.
Or it could be, I don't know anythingabout diversity, which is seldom true.
And the belief that Ihave nothing to contribute.
And so we, for a lot of thosereasons, we kind of rest in unaware.
(13:04):
We don't want to know.
Or we are made, perhaps we're afraidof feeling extremely uncomfortable.
So then what I wanted to dois help folks who are there.
Kind of see themselves and whatthat next stage was for them.
Should they choose to open their eyes,look around, begin to notice, begin
to analyze their biases and come toan understanding and self awareness
(13:25):
and be able to see themselves.
In the system and understand, both theirdiversity dimensions and also perhaps the
privileges that have enabled their life.
And that's been certainly true for methat coming from the LGBTQ plus discipline
and that advocacy, I've also becomeextremely hyper aware of the color of
my skin and the, my education and otherfactors that have enabled me to have
(13:49):
the permission to speak, to push, toget inside, to, apply pressure and do
so with a certain degree of protection.
So now I'm learning what I don't knowand I'm learning what I'm not good at
and I'm learning, what I don't knowhow to approach and that's great.
There's a ton to be done there and I'min this stage every day, like trying
(14:11):
to read, listen, watch, put myself in,conversations where I'm not familiar and
I don't know what they're talking aboutfrom a cultural identity perspective.
Great.
I'm picking up little things and puttingthings together and thinking about, okay,
wow, there's a lot that I didn't know.
And I think if we could just get peoplethere then we can stay there and say,
(14:32):
oh, that's interesting and move on.
It's still not my problem.
So the taking on of the problem andthe opportunity is where the next phase
is, which is active, which is okay.
Now I'm going to act onwhat I've heard and learned.
And bring that with me and beginto weave it into my day to begin to
speak it, to begin to open the doorwith it, to begin to broach it, to
(14:54):
begin to I don't know, share my story.
Perhaps I haven't perhaps I don't talkabout how I grew up, a childhood of
great challenge , and, or great privilege.
What I think is most important is, tobring our full selves because others
need to see us processing throughall those things because it gives
permission to others to do the same.
(15:15):
Active is the experimentation.
It's the new language development.
It's the muscle.
It's the, it's the practice and it'sthe sort of falling off the bike and
getting back on and falling off andgetting back, it's the resiliency.
And the high humility, low ego ofacknowledging that , I'm in the building
phase in myself and building somethingnew, or I'm fostering something new in me.
(15:38):
And lots of things can be hard here.
Like I'm going to get it wrong.
I'm not going to be perfect.
I'm ashamed or embarrassed.
I don't know what to say.
I'm so Jennifer, I'm, Ihave so many privileges.
I don't know anything about this.
Cause it's not the way I grew up, andI think that's a great opportunity
to engage, especially leaders ofa certain generation and identity
in that conversation to say sowhat do you want your part to be?
(16:01):
And then I can give a lot of ideasabout ways to help ways to support,
ways to leverage what you've beengiven and what you've earned.
Certainly earned and unearned.
To me, it doesn't matter.
The point is that you have somethingwithin your reach that others don't,
and you can put that to use, towardscreating more equitable systems
(16:22):
and you can do that tomorrow.
And it's not anything that needs tobring about shame and all the things
that we normally associate with it.
And then the final phaseis advocate, which is okay.
Now I know what to do.
I'm good at it.
I will deploy it.
I will fearlessly challenge.
I have no issue with speaking thetruth, and I know how to use my voice
and I know how to create noise and.
(16:44):
Push the system and ask theinconvenient questions and challenge
myself and others to be better.
It's almost like, yes, the journey istowards advocacy at the end of the day for
collective good, and I'm also hearing apersonal journey from fear to courage.
If we can engage in that space becausefear is what breeds the insecurities,
(17:08):
fear is what breeds the ego and powerholding and as we unlearn and relearn
we get to spaces of vulnerability,authenticity, courage, , and humility,
where it is more about power sharing.
Yes.
Not as scarcity.
All of a sudden it's fromscarcity to abundance.
There.
(17:28):
Oh, I love that.
Yes.
Yes.
Scarcity is the, Oh, there'snot going to be enough for me.
Oh, if I share this or if I make roomfor others, does it mean I am losing the
world that I knew and the world that Iunderstood and know how to navigate in,
which is really fascinating question.
Look, we're losing things all the time.
(17:49):
Things are changingaround us all the time.
Yeah.
There are productive losses.
I would prefer to call it a change.
I would prefer to say that the contextis changing and how we show up and that
actually there's so much available thatwill benefit us as we let go of perhaps
what's always worked for me and what Iunderstand and my currency, if you will.
(18:14):
And there's so much available toinvestigate where we can access a
whole different part of us, as leadersbegin to exercise different muscles
and actually enhance and broadenwhat we have always done, but gain.
Deepen and become more effective.
But a lot of people do look atthis as a zero sum and there's no
(18:34):
additive benefit to them at least.
And I think that's comes from sucha fearful place that using the
opportunities we've had to createmore opportunity for others means
less for us is a really interesting,that's a really interesting math.
I think the biggest fear space.
That I've seen people hold is, oh, myGod, is everything that I've known so
(18:55):
far a lie and untrue . depending onthe identities that one holds and what
the learning is, et cetera, et cetera.
But that feels to be the deepestspace of uncertainty, insecurity.
And as humans, we're just looking to holdon to something at the end of the day.
We were given an incomplete versionof events for those of us who believe
(19:16):
that there were, histories written bythe victors, so to speak, that horrible
phrase, that's unfortunately really true.
That leaves me with, regret aboutwhat I wasn't taught, what was missing
from the curriculum that I was exposedto the role models and voices that
I saw, didn't see the way I grewup and, white patriarchal culture.
(19:38):
And , until I came out, I was verymuch in that realm and coming out
was my first piece of like liberationwas pulling out of it and saying,
wait a second, what is this?
So pulling out of a system thatyou grow up in and beginning
to chart your own path is wow.
I wish that for everyone.
(20:00):
It is such a beautiful gift.
To have the courage to do that andhave the ability to question how you
want to make your life yours, andwhat kind of legacy you want to leave.
This work that we're doing has notcome from the identities of privilege.
This work that we're doing has comefrom grassroots, advocacy, activism
(20:23):
of folk who have been at the depthsof oppression and have come out of
it or working to come out of it.
I think that's why then my reckoning withmy privileges has been fairly recent.
The trajectory of a life.
Can be the fight, right?
The liberation, the agency, theindependence, the sort of I'm
(20:43):
going to think for myself, I'mgoing to just, decide who I want
to be and what my terms are.
Mm hmm.
Mm hmm.
And then Identifying with the communitythat's not seen and heard and,
that was so strong and is so strongand will always be strong for me.
And then the ad though recently has beenthe elements of privilege that then allow
(21:04):
me into a place where I can bring thatexperience and all the learnings and all
the courage and resilience and strategicforesight to have been , in this sort of
workplace and lobbying for our rights.
It was an amazing place to, , see theview from there change, the view of
(21:25):
institutions, the view of power, the viewof how things happen strategically, like
how does change happen strategically?
And I was certainly marching, I wassuper active in that, but it's also went
to school for leadership developmentand studied how does change happen in
organizations, , who holds the levers.
And then inevitably, I had tothink about, so how will I work
(21:47):
with the circumstances in orderto get the change that I want and
what will be my toolbox in that?
And each of us is equippedwith this amazing toolbox.
And I would posit that.
There are many tools in our toolbox.
We're not aware of that.
We're probably not using and that we mayevolve from using certain tools early in
our life, which we thought were our onlytools to a more sophisticated, utilization
(22:12):
of all the pieces of who we are.
And I feel like my privileges aretools now, and I can use those.
I can platform, I can center, I canshare, I can make space for I can direct
attention to, I can highlight, I canthrow the light on things strategically.
And I love doing that now.
That gives me such great joy to dothat because I don't ever believe
(22:34):
that I'm the only voice like ever.
This is so limited , weare, our toolbox is massive.
But we are limited to our lensesand those are hard to get out
of, but why not use those?
Why not employ them in service of change?
And, that's what fascinates me.
I want to read out a commentthat we have so powerful.
(22:55):
It says scarcity, such akey piece of the puzzle.
It's an obstacle forso many on the journey.
I come against my own sense of it timeand again, and really need to step back
and see how false a narrative it gives.
This is something we heara lot within organizations.
So for someone who is looking to workthemselves further on the continuum
(23:16):
let's say from active to advocate.
But , they are not changemakers withinwhere they sit in the organization.
They might not have the spaces of poweror they feel that they have that right.
What do you say to someone whowants to do more but feels limited?
By let's say the status, the role,the identity is of the combination
(23:40):
of all of which that they hold.
There's the imposter syndrome,which I think we really
have to be aware of, right?
That, voice, I think this comment isgetting at, which is when you hear that
you need to play small and you are smalleror less consequential or don't matter.
It really, we do internalize it.
And we also internalize the hidingin the organizational context,
(24:02):
the hiding of our true selves.
And it becomes a habit.
It becomes who we areif we're not careful.
And so a lot of the awakenings Iwitness in some of my rooms is that
people are, have so many diversitydimensions that they are like, wow,
I have not been in service of these.
I haven't been respecting these in me.
I haven't been bringing them to thefour and I, and you can see the wheels
(24:25):
turning around like old narratives or.
Like that we're living in a, inthe past in terms of, I don't
know much harm was caused to uswhen we tried to be authentic.
I think , we have to really reevaluatea lot around the changing times
and the changing of the environmentaround us, which is always shifting.
(24:46):
There's always opportunities to be,to use and find your voice in a new
way and to step forward and lead.
But we stop before we start.
, we have a little seedling andwe like kill it, and that's
the seedling of our leadership.
And the thing that grows in us, whichwould generate a light for others.
But we think it's small or insignificant,or we were told that, or, I thought, I
(25:09):
always tell the story far before I toldmy, I did gave my Ted talk like 10 years
ago or so I thought losing my, I was asinger and I lost my voice as a singer.
I had some surgeries and lotsof drama around that, but I
thought that was my story.
I mean, that was the biggest thing thathad happened to me to lose my artistic
dream and my means to express myself.
(25:29):
And so I told that storyfrom the stage, but I was.
So I had so much imposter syndrome,like so much, and that it didn't matter
that it, nobody would want to knowthat it, Oh, poor me, like big deal.
And just going through all of thatand, just being horrible to ourselves.
In killing our story before it evengets a chance to breathe and gets
(25:51):
a chance to get its roots and seethe sun and be watered and nurtured.
And I think if I could give anyadvice at all, it's that we are
each of us change makers that ourenvironment is changing all the time.
And we have to really lookat each new day as a new day.
We need to reevaluate.
What's in my favor today?
What opening do I have?
What opportunity do I have?
(26:12):
What do I want to say?
Just be aware, like this stuff is heavy.
The messages we get about ourworthiness are super heavy and have
been happening for a long time, allaround us in our families, in society,
and So , pulling those out by theroot in us, really looking at them
saying, thank you for serving me.
(26:33):
You probably served me at some point in mylife, but you're not serving me anymore.
Yeah.
Leave, and embody, thatpowerful messenger.
And, I think that's so important.
Everybody's voice matters and everyone's.
Combination of ingredients is goingto be so different and so unique.
And that combination iswhat people need to see.
It's not just, Oh, well, there's so manyother speakers that identify like I do,
(26:55):
or there's so many other messengers.
No, your particular combo is what's magic.
And your particular way of parsing itand putting it together is so needed.
Somebody needs to hear it andsomebody will be changed by it.
I love this what I'm getting outof this is stories are powerful,
irrespective of who we are.
Our stories are powerful and our storieshave the capacity to create learning.
(27:20):
But if we get in our own way, becauseof our imposter, Someone's losing out
on learning from our story, and we aregetting in our own way of wanting to
be that advocate, that change speaker.
That, needle mover or noise creator,drum beater is what I use a lot.
But what a great connection ofour sense of self worth or lack
(27:44):
of has a direct relationship.
With how we show up asinclusive changemakers.
We don't have to be in the C suite.
We don't have to be senior vicepresidents wherever we are.
I always say we're leadersby choice or default.
So might as well choose being a leader.
Oh, that's good.
Move, move from that space.
So we spoke about, someone with nota lot of power, wanting to do more.
(28:08):
Moving to the other side of someonewho is been an advocate, right?
I love the emphasis that you'vemade over and over again, that
advocacy comes from humility lackof ego and a lot of courage.
And how do we make sure that thereis a line with those qualities?
And not moving over to thesavior of, I have to do this.
(28:30):
I have to be the protective one.
I have to save this organization or,that, space of what I call internalized
entitlement that just suddenlycomes on for various reasons again.
The best part of the ego is itpushes us to take center stage and I
would hate not to have that show upsometimes because you got to be tough.
(28:53):
To step up and step forward and you've gotto believe people want to hear what you
have to say and so part of the utilizationof privilege, I think, is actually being
the loudest voice in the room is holdingpeople to account that look like you.
So I'm not sure there's a lotof humility in that, but in a
perfect world, you'd be able tobalance your advocacy with inquiry.
(29:16):
Those are 2 of my favorite words.
Inquiry is.
So where are people at vis a vis thisand advocacy is how do I use my voice?
To compliment this so that, I'm notsucking up all the air in the room and
I'm inquisitive, I'm curious and I'mcreating openness, but at the same time
I'm putting the right, subjectivelyspeaking ideas into the space, into
(29:39):
the water I'm planting these seeds.
So it's this forward and back thing thatI think you're constantly inhabiting
both, you're figuring out where's my voiceneeded, but then when do I need to seed.
The platform I have, where do I needto step in and say something that
needs to be said, but then when doI need to make sure somebody else
says it, or where am I listening?
It's this constantshape shifting in a way.
(30:02):
But I love it.
I don't feel it that any of thoseselves for me are not authentic to
me, and I think the true skill.
Of this is that the knowing when havingthe capacity to do either thing or to
step in and provide exactly what's needed.
In that position, but thattakes great sensitivity and
(30:24):
great powers of observation.
And like I said, being prepared forthe moment when you have a moment, and
that's the moment you need to seizeand then also being humble enough that.
You can give that moment to others andthat you can orchestrate it from behind
if that's the role that you most needto play to be in service, the assumption
(30:45):
that I know what's needed right here.
And I'm going to do it, and weget very full of ourselves and
our mission and, all energized andfierce, fierce fierceness is good.
I want fierce protectors and allies.
I actually really like that.
Because sometimes I don't have thevoice to the question we had earlier.
Sometimes I'm wrestling withimposter syndrome myself.
(31:06):
So when somebody has a strongvoice as my advocate, is a really
unique, amazing feeling for me.
I'll just speak for myselfthat not to rob me of my voice.
But to provide me what it lookslike, knowing what I know now and
knowing how I use my voice, I'mvery careful to support as defined
(31:29):
by the recipient of that support.
And I'm super careful tosay, to check in, to not make
assumptions, to say, let me pause.
Let me check in.
Let me find out what would thisperson like me to do, if anything?
And maybe the answer is nothing, right?
Cause some people arenot going to be like me.
Some people are going to be like.
Oh, I've got this taken care of.
(31:50):
Don't worry about me.
Like I'm going to have theconversation and I'll be like, great.
Awesome.
Just wanted to check in on other cases.
It's do you want me?
Would you like me to say something?
How would you like to besupported in this moment?
And I think we have to be open tothe answer and then be steered and
to allow yourself to be steered.
Even if the answer is, I don'tneed anything at this moment.
(32:11):
Yeah.
I think that even just noticing though,that's things happen, noticing touching
base, letting others know they'renot alone, letting people know you're
not okay with things is beautiful.
That's the skillset, but then whatis done about it should be dictated
by the person that was impacted
to be that effectiveadvocate on the continuum.
(32:34):
We have to learn how tobe an effective ally.
And you've been talking alot about allyship in your
small videos and LinkedIn.
And that is the crux of the definition.
Why don't you tell us who is an ally?
So I think that it's an easy termto claim, but I think honestly it's
a very hard thing to earn and itshould be, the bar should be high.
(32:55):
We never, rest and become once and forall it's we earn it or not like over and
over again and in the eyes of others.
It's to me, it's verysimilar to, good leadership.
If you think you're a good leader, fine.
That doesn't matter to me as much as howyour leadership is experienced and how
it lands and what you create for others.
Three, three 60 degree reviewsare wonderful for that reason.
(33:17):
If people are honest tosay Hey, how can I improve?
It's not about me andmy own self estimation.
So I've got to decide though, tobe an ally, to be an ally someday,
you have to commit and practice it.
And so it's weird because you can'tgive it the label to yourself,
but you also, you have to declareit to yourself as a priority.
(33:39):
And to me , there's alot of a words, right?
There's accomplice ally advocate.
I don't really differentiate between them.
I think it's personal preference.
Some people hate one ofthem for some reason.
Accomplice I think is neatbecause I think of it as.
Somebody who's scheming to, accomplishsomething together and bringing, something
to bear for a goal and alongside.
(34:02):
However, you want me to be your coconspirator, we will conspire to do
something versus allies sometimes canhave a connotation of the savior piece.
The sort of, I'm going to share somethingI have with you, and it's a bit of
the privilege piece too, is interesting.
Cause we have to be careful not toassume all these people have all the
(34:23):
privilege and all these people don't.
I think that's how I understood it fora very long time, but now I'm looking
at it as these ingredients, that weall have privileges of certain kinds,
different kinds, and that, we can be.
We can be applying them in a 360degree shape versus from, like you
say, saviorism, like from on highsort of sharing or bestowing, I
(34:46):
want to get away from that because Idon't love that for a lot of reasons.
It's very hierarchical, but it'salso assumes that some of us have.
Things and others don't, but I challengeall identities in my audience to
recognize who are you sponsoring?
How are you opening doors and utilizing,you can be in your late twenties, early
career, and you should be deploying.
(35:09):
The things, the relationships andnetworks, you have the capital that you
have, you should be vouching for people.
You should be lifting them up.
And I know, you're like, Oh,I'm not even mature enough in
my career to be doing that.
But I disagree.
Maybe you have.
You're able bodied, maybe youhave a certain education, maybe you
have a certain, lived experienceof living all over the world or
language, privilege, there's alwayssomething there's always a cisgender.
(35:33):
I don't want to say cisgender andthis is a privilege because I think
gender identities are beautiful andwonderful and give us all kinds of.
Insights and wisdom and privileges.
But I can say when I share my pronounsI do so from a place of, I have a degree
of alignment in my gender, sense of mygender and the gender that I was born in.
(35:53):
That is, that's something that Ihaven't had to reconcile in my life
and haven't had to have the fearand the difficulty of being like,
how am I going to live my truth?
And is that different than whatpeople see or how people react to me?
So , it's very interesting justto notice the world is built for
some of us and not for others.
And bias is a thing.
(36:14):
And, when we can live aday and not experience.
Everything that somebody elseexperiences, you have to at some point
to step apart from that and say, sohow am I given that this is easier?
It gives me more bandwidthto actually turn around and
put it back into the system.
(36:34):
To whom much is given, much isexpected and much is expected.
I wake up thinking, howam I making this right?
Because if I benefited disproportionately,I want to make that right and I want to
give it back and I want to expand so that,that leaves a different legacy behind
me than the one that I was born into.
(36:54):
Inclusive leadership is also aboutpaying it forward or giving back.
Usually,
And the other thing I want to emphasizeis when you said you have to earn being
an ally over and over again, and that'swhy we call ourselves practitioners.
Because it is a practicethat we won't always.
Be experts at some days will be good days.
(37:15):
Other days we'll do not so good.
It's almost like relearningfor us as well in this space.
Now, what does allyship looklike two years ago that now
seems a little too performative.
This is what is likely needed orbeing told that so even though
the concept of what allyship lookslike is shifting and changing as
(37:35):
a world is shifting and changing.
You're so right.
It used to be enough to say the things,and brands have gone through this too.
Yeah and then the accountability nowis deeper, which is because things
are so transparent, okay, so you didthis ad. It was this beautiful ad
and then we look at your board andyou have no diversity on your board.
So I love that, everything isbeing dug up in a way to say do,
(37:56):
does, do the words match the music?
Is this fully aligned across?
Everything that you do andeverything that you touch.
And we're not there yet.
Companies that are some of the mostrespected companies in the world, like
still have practices like globally,for example, in their supply chain
that are extremely distressing orenvironmental practices, or just
aren't doing enough on social issues.
(38:17):
So there's no, when people are like, Oh,what's the best company or this or that?
I'm like, I don't even know how to answerthat because . It's just such a mixed bag.
There are parts ofcompanies that are great.
There are certain practicesthat are super cutting edge.
And then there's others that theyprobably don't want anyone to see
everything in between.
And that's why ESG is so important.
As we bring these things into alignmentand begin to measure them and begin
(38:37):
to hold the system accountable fordoing better in these main areas.
, I think it's a powerful measuringstick and the S of course, ESG is as
a social and within that, lives thisDEI piece lives, corporate social
responsibility and supply chain andsupplier diversity and all this.
That's that lives in thesocial, but it matters in that
(38:59):
it will matter more and more.
And I don't think we are going backwards.
If anything, it's going to accelerateand get even more accountability,
which is good news for us.
Cause that's going to be the wind beneathour wings for the work that we do.
I love how you named this complexitythat one person or a group of people
might have the best experience at thiscompany, best place to work, et cetera.
(39:19):
And yet what the company standsfor their practices overall.
They might be creating belonging andpsychological safety for their people
capital within the organization, but whatthey do, what they stand for, how they're
impacting society and humanity at large.
If that is off, there areso many elements to this.
Or vice versa, so many, the performativeand then the horrible culture.
(39:43):
I've had companies that shall remainnameless, who are like super duper
champions for LGBTQ people and causes.
And then I meet a friend who worksfor that company who's closeted.
And it's like one of thoserecord scratch moments.
Okay, wait a second.
Like we've been touting this, or this isthe company that's won all the awards or
whatever, but then like you need somebodyand they're like, I can't wait to leave.
(40:03):
How can I encourage the practice ofDEI in a group that is very stagnant,
but preaches DEI, helping those aroundme see and adapt DEI practices when
I'm not as influential as some of theleaders in the organization without
bringing a sense of pressure for change.
Coalitions of people, if you can formthem, even if you can find an ally
(40:26):
someone who is willing to, co advocateand perhaps from a different identity,
perhaps from a group that has influence.
That's a powerful combination.
So I think when we try to do thingsalone it makes it harder for sure.
I think that we put ourselvesat risk in a weird way.
We stick our neck out and I think morestrategic approach is to gather, folks
(40:50):
who are passionate who see and havethe same understanding of the gap too.
So there, let me back up and sayyou may see a gap in terms of walk
and near the talk and the practice.
And so I would start withso who agrees with that?
What is the gap and how have we madethat verbally, how we made that visually.
(41:11):
Apparent.
How have we documented that?
That would be where I wouldstart and documenting something.
Facts are important.
Data is important.
So we say this, but we do this, right?
And here are five examples.
How many people believe that'strue and have seen that and
believe that it needs to change?
How do we gather a coalition aroundus to so that we're not the only one?
And also remembering that everybodyhas a different gift as a change maker.
(41:34):
Some of us are noisy.
Some of us are fearless.
Some of us are supporters.
Some of us are, work our way through,my friend says, heat and light.
We are either like you work throughlight, you work through heat, but it takes
this like blend of different messengersdelivering the same message, I think
to get a critical mass to be heard.
(41:55):
So a lot of this that I've justdescribed is all prep work.
In a way, things that need to proceedan effort and acknowledging, if we're
young in our life and career or ourDEI advocacy, and we don't really
quite know what we're best at, I knowfor me, I'm meant to be a messenger.
I'm not the technician.
I'm not the researcher.
There's a lot of things I'm notand so that clarity continues
(42:17):
to come to me the older I get.
And it's still getting very specific butthe early days I was yes to everything.
Yes, we can do it.
Yes.
I can, which was a lot when you're anentrepreneur, it's what you do and you
try to get clients and stay afloat.
But I think that preparing,working smarter, not harder.
(42:38):
If you want to go far, go together, allthese wonderful proverbs, I think are,
metaphors for change and how changehappens and the groundwork for change.
And if you are smart about how you setit up, you will achieve your goal without
having a huge cost on you from a fatigueperspective, or maybe from a career
(42:59):
limiting reactions to bringing a messagethat people may not be receptive of, but I
think it's doing it together and getting alot of viewpoints on how to do it because
organizations are complex and yes, nobodywants to change, but I think that within
an organization, it's not a monolith.
There are potential supporterseverywhere around us.
(43:19):
There are champions waiting to beasked, waiting to be ignited waiting
to have an aha moment because of aone on one conversation and all of a
sudden one becomes two, becomes three.
And so I don't want people tofeel they have to do this alone.
And honestly, I don't thinkwe're as effective alone.
And also being really aware,who do you know, who has a
(43:40):
degree of power and influence?
Like how can we join ourselves?
What we don't have?
Who has it?
And how can we build a relationship thatwe can learn from each other and then
set out together to accomplish things.
I know a lot of pairs far out.
It's really interesting.
I've been meaning to write something aboutthis because there are pairs of people.
(44:02):
In organizations that I know, and askanyone in DNI work and they will tell
you who their biggest champion is.
They will tell you, they will tell youthat they call that person up, they email
them, they conspire, they make a plan.
And usually, sometimes thisis a woman, sometimes the
champion is a senior executive.
That one person that gets it and thenthey're in partnership and relationship
(44:26):
with the lead of D and I, who sometimesis a woman who sometimes a person of
color but that bond is really strong.
And I've seen this over and over again,it's this partnership and it works because
of , perhaps the different kinds of powereach person has because of the differences
of lived experience and the combination.
And a strategic planning that youcan do with others as you look at
(44:49):
the organization and say how wouldwe begin to socialize this idea
that something needs to change?
How do we begin to document it?
How do we need to quantify the problem?
Who needs to know about it?
Who are our early study change management?
Who are the early champions and theearly wins that we might achieve?
Thinking through people ask me,like, how do I learn how to do DNI?
(45:10):
And I'm like, go study change managementand organizational, development,
like things and leadership, gostudy how a system, what are the
seeds of change that can be planted?
Now, this is not glamorous.
It's not the big thing.
, it's very systematic actually.
And it requires us to do somethingwith those fierce emotions
(45:32):
and the fire that we have.
Maybe channeling it into being thoughtfulbecause what we want is lasting change.
That's what we want.
So we have to do this differently thanI think a lot of us think we do it.
We think that just through the big,blaze of glory that we've somehow
changed something permanently, buta lot of times that isn't true.
(45:55):
So I think a lot about thatand , let's do the longterm work,
even though it requires a lot ofdiscipline and patience on our part.
But let's be dedicated tocreating the lasting sustainable
change , and making noise for sure.
But yeah, I'm being strategic.
You laid out that nonlinear path islikely the most effective, right?
To create change, first build yournetwork, build your sponsorship.
(46:18):
Ooh,
that's what I heard loud and clear
love it
find those people who don't have thelevels of privilege and influence
and power that you have conspire withthem, but build that relationship,
create that network first, becausethat collective momentum that you
speak off over and over is what'sgoing to help initiate the change.
(46:38):
And so we may or may not be therewhen change actually happens, but it's
about planting the seeds and creatingthe foundation that sometimes is more
important than seeing change through
20 years in my own company here.
I'm aware that I got it started.
I got it started, and , therewas a lot of hard work.
And some days now I feel the momentumjust is carrying us and carrying me.
(47:03):
So what you just said is so beautiful thatagain, , there's a reason and a season,
there's a stage and change that we mayplay a really powerful role because of
what we're good at and what we know howto do, but it doesn't mean we've got
to , and we won't see, we may not see,but we need to be able to hand it off.
We need to be able to build somethingthat somebody else can take and really.
(47:24):
Run with and magnify and scale.
For example, use thinking ofentrepreneurs and how we grow businesses.
Founders aren't often the CEO that takesthe company into the next stage, because
it's just such a different skillset.
So same thing is true with DNI efforts.
It's truly knowing , who you have aroundyou, who you can leverage strategically.
And when your time is, and perhapswhen you pass it off, ERGs go through
(47:47):
this succession planning all the time,stepping down of chairs, stepping down
of the original leaders who becauseof just sheer force of personality,
activated something, but thenthe maturation of an effort is
what matters for the long term.
And that sometimes requires adifferent team, a different leader.
Incredible.
Jennifer, thank you somuch for just wisdom.
(48:09):
I'm loving how personal we got interms of this work is directly connected
with our sense of self or lack of it.
So thank you for openingup that possibility.
It's through community thatwe, continue to be inspired.
Thank you for being inmy community, Jennifer.
And I look forward to whereelse and what else you do.
(48:31):
And Amara, you know that you and I aregoing to be continuing to conspire.
So continue.
I'm looking forward to it.
We continue the exploration ofworkplace culture with our next
episode, Coaching for Inclusion.
Thank you for listening to Farsight Chats.
I hope that this episode is the startto future conversations you have with
(48:52):
your colleagues, teams, and communities.
Subscribe now to Farsight Chatswherever you get your podcasts.
And don't forget to follow us onInstagram and Facebook at GoFarsight,
LinkedIn at the Farsight Agency, andcheck out our website, GoFarsight.
com to know more aboutwho we are and what we do.
(49:13):
Thank you for answering the call todo more, do better and do different.
Welcome to Farsight Chats, your guideto navigating complex and important
conversations on workplace culture.
I'm your host, Farah Bala,founder and CEO of Farsight.
We specialize in leadership andorganizational development, focusing
on equity, diversity, and inclusionas core leadership competencies.
(00:24):
Join us in these conversationsthat aim to foster understanding
growth and positive change
On today's episode, inclusive leadership.
I am joined by friend of Farsight,author and thought leader, Jennifer
Brown, who you'll remember fromepisode 16, where she interviewed me
for her podcast, the will to change.
(00:44):
We also celebrated the launch ofJennifer's book, How to Be an Inclusive
Leader, that released in the fall of 2022.
And as we always do, we had a wideranging conversation exploring not
just her book and her inclusiveleadership continuum, but also the
urgent need for inclusive leadership.
And three years later, in 2025, thisurgency feels especially prescient.
(01:09):
We also discussed how imposter syndromemight impact the resilience and courage
needed to lead with an inclusive mindset.
All our work at Farsight isabout embedding EDIA core
competencies within leadership.
That's equity, diversity,inclusion, anti oppression.
It is the only data backed pathto creating healthy workplace
(01:30):
culture where everyone thrives.
And as I often say, when our peoplethrive, our business thrives.
So as you listen in today, we invite youto consider how are you building your own
core competencies of inclusive leadership?
What feedback loops have youcreated within your teams or
departments where you are gettingreal time impact of your leadership?
(01:53):
How would others on your teamdescribe you as an inclusive leader?
This is a must in ensuring that yourimpact aligns with your intentions.
So join us on this journeyof learning and unlearning in
today's episode of Farsight Chats.
I am so excited for today'sconversation with Jennifer Brown.
(02:17):
I am so thrilled.
Congratulations on your book one ofyour many books, How to Be an Inclusive
Leader, that has just come out as asecond edition, and I had the deep honor
of joining your launch event, so I'mgoing to hand over the microphone to you.
To you.
Tell us who you are.
What do you do?
(02:37):
Thank you.
Hello, everybody.
I'm happy to be here.
I have been in the DEI spacefor over 20 years at this point.
Having kind of entered it as a newly outprofessional as the LGBTQ plus community.
Person and member of that communityand very much full of my activism and
advocacy and trying to use whateverI could from my community networks to
(03:00):
influence employers to be more equitable.
For LGBTQ plus people.
So that was where I kind of cut myteeth and I started working in ERGs
back then and my consulting, onething led to another and we ended
up becoming a company that focuseson DEI strategy across the board.
I saw a small group of people influence.
Entire companies and around their policyand to be a part of that, way before
(03:23):
gay marriage, way before a lot of theseother things it was really amazing and
showed me we could each use our voicestrategically and get things done and
also inform large entities, how they needto treat us more respectfully and how
they need to engage with our community.
And this is learnings thatI've never forgotten today.
I run a company with lots ofwonderful, amazing people in it.
(03:46):
We consult, we build strategy.
We do training and education.
I speak, and obviously I writebooks and I love writing books so.
My first question foryou is, about your book.
You had written the first edition andnow you've come out with a second.
And , at your events a coupleof weeks ago, you said there
was an urgency for leadership.
(04:08):
So I'm curious.
to hear from you.
Why a second edition?
What have you been grapplingwith that urgency yourself?
Just if you could let us into the why andwhat's different about this book for you.
I always have felt the urgency, honestly.
You know, a lot of us in thiswork could see the crisis.
Before it became the crisis thateverybody was talking about.
(04:31):
I know, that first one, I didn't knowso much when I wrote the first one,
honestly, I was a little even thoughI've been in the work for a really long
time, I feel the last couple of yearsreally deepened all of us and me having
taught it, taught that model from thatbook in my keynotes and just spoken
to people hundreds of times in the lastcouple of years, it's brought into my
(04:51):
consciousness, my awareness, my courage,my specificity, the stories that I tell.
And I wanted that to be reflected andupdated if that book were the one kind
of magnum opus of me, I wanted to, geta second shot at it, and that was just
so so it was an honor and excitingwhen the publisher was like sell your
(05:13):
editor was like so maybe you want todo a second edition, instead of a new
one at the time we thought it might be10 percent different but it ended up
being like 60 or 70 percent different.
And it was a lot of work, it was hardto excise and make room for new content
and say goodbye to old stuff that Iknew had really found an audience, but
I was able to keep the main structure inplace, which is the four part continuum
(05:37):
that people really taken to that really,they really understand and appreciate.
I'm deeply appreciating yourtransparency with, you know, I didn't
know what I was doing at the time.
But that's, I think that's therole when you're on a journey
as a practitioner, right?
Right.
It's that constant growingand evolving space.
Can you name for us what were thosechunks that you say you put away because
(06:00):
they had become more, within the languageand what specifically did you prioritize
in this book, like content wise?
, I think we wanted to, and I haveto give credit to my writing team
at JVC, which was led by KarenDoms, who has a research focus.
And I think the amalgam of ourwriting and what we wanted to include
(06:22):
reflects that, which , I've alwayswritten in a team approach, honestly.
So that was unique and cool to have that.
And, we looked at stories togetherand chose obviously more updated ones,
more hard hitting ones around, forexample, social responsibility, thinking
about companies taking a stand on,gun laws, like Dick's Sporting Goods,
who, made some pretty bold moves afterI think Parkland and really put a
(06:46):
lot at stake relating to their stanceon an issue that would theoretically
impact their business directly.
And so choosing stories that reallycapture the tension of this moment, the
imperative and the urgency of takinga stand because your employees and
your customers want to see that andthen coping with the consequences.
(07:07):
And we're seeing this still, obviouslywith the Dobbs decision and companies
like deciding, how, to what degree do theywant to really put themselves out there
and what are they willing to put at risk.
Stories like that
Lots more content on equity.
I think, a lot more specificityaround what is broken and what needs
to be fixed and who fixes it, by theway, PS us, like each of us in our
(07:29):
role, hence the subtitle of the book,your role, always really important.
And even more important now, becauseif every passing year we can rely,
we need more help to accelerate.
Where we need to go and wecannot leave it to the DNI team.
We can't leave it to theemployee resource groups.
We can't leave it to the, black and Brown,talent in our workforce to explain to us
(07:54):
like , why, and how we need to be better.
We just, we don't have time, andthe workforce is changing rapidly.
It expects different things.
People are coming and going from companiesand organizations because of, culture.
Yeah.
And so , we're in a crisis.
I'm not sure leadershipreally sees it that way.
Because it's so easy to be comfortablewhen , you're in a system that feels
(08:18):
familiar and it's worked for you and, , Iget the sense that like people think
that status quo will continue to suffice.
Yeah.
So I often feel like I'm thereality bites for a person.
I love that you say we don't have time.
What according to you happenswhen we run out of time?
We squander human potentialand , , we exhaust people and to.
(08:42):
We squander gifts and zones ofgenius and we don't reach customers.
So the problem for the company, of course,selfishly for them is where we're going to
miss out on this and this from a revenueperspective, from a product's perspective,
from innovation getting the best talent.
So those are pain points for theorganization, but I think like the bigger,
(09:02):
maybe what you're asking though, is thebigger cost the toll on humans of putting
so much time in an environment thatdoesn't see you, that doesn't hear you,
that doesn't enable you to contribute.
Doesn't generate enough psychologicalsafety to make you really want to stay and
give that extra effort, that discretionaryeffort that is available to all of
(09:24):
us, but that I think we choose everyday, whether we bring it or we don't.
And, if you're a leader thatsays none of this matters, then
I think your days are numbered.
That's the leader.
You know, what I'm getting fromwhat you're saying is people
leadership is inclusive leadership.
When you focus on your people,everyone thrives, including
your business, including yourretention and loyalty and growth.
It's revenue.
(09:45):
And we don't focus on people,the collective versus the
individualized incentives.
You just bring stuff down.
How do you in your work, Jennifer,deal with those voices that say, I
don't see why this is important orwhy this has been given importance.
There's been a lot of attack on EDI work.
(10:06):
Historically, especially in the lastfew years on practitioners on, some
of our peers, very public attacks.
So , how do you manage that?
How do you perceive that?
How do you work through that?
I dread those attacks.
I, think there've been little thingshere and there, never anything very large,
but I think all of us are concerned andthe attacks can come from all kinds of
(10:30):
places to, I can deal with attacks fromthe right very easily because, I just
feel like we're on different, journeys.
And we see the world differently.
But I think when they come from within,when they come from a community that you
feel so much in solidarity with and area part of that can be really devastating.
That's call out culture, right?
That's cancel culture.
(10:50):
It's the means.
Some people choose to create change.
But I choose a different path.
I like to teach through illuminatingthings and inviting things and
seeing the shared humanity, seeingthe humanity and others, and also
seeing the mistakes that we make.
And the learnings that we need andknowing that we need to have space to
hear that and to adjust and that, it'sdifficult to learn and change from a
(11:14):
place of shame, almost impossible.
I know that because that's beentrue for me, and I am feeling
when I'm deep in that dark place.
I'm pretty incapable of doing much.
And so while it's important tolet yourself go to where you need
to go, it's important also topick yourself up and get back in.
And we also need to be humble when wethink that we are the one that with all
(11:34):
the answers, we need to remind ourselvesthat we don't have all the answers.
And I think we need to treat othersand give that feedback to others
as we would like to receive it.
With something that we always say isit takes everyone to bring everyone
along and no one should be leftbehind in this journey, irrespective
of where they're coming from orwhere they are at in the journey.
So I appreciate hearing that from you.
(11:57):
The continuum.
Can you introduce us to yourcontinuum a little bit and where
you are hoping to lead your audiencethrough that in terms of their own
growth and like you said their rolein creating inclusive leadership.
I really wanted to write something foror create something for the individual
learner, who's, who is incompetent.
(12:18):
And I don't say thatas a derogatory thing.
I mean, there's plenty ofthings we are incompetent in.
We don't have the skill.
And so the four stages are unaware,aware, active, and advocate, and
they really mirror and map my stages.
I feel myself toggling backand forth between them.
And so it's very personal for me.
And I tried to keep it simple andmemorable and also be judgment free.
(12:40):
In terms of where we are.
So unaware is I don'tknow there's a problem.
I disagree that it's a problem.
It can be, I'm a good person,and I'm trying, but not really.
Or somebody else's job, it's not mine.
Or it could be, I don't know anythingabout diversity, which is seldom true.
And the belief that Ihave nothing to contribute.
And so we, for a lot of thosereasons, we kind of rest in unaware.
(13:04):
We don't want to know.
Or we are made, perhaps we're afraidof feeling extremely uncomfortable.
So then what I wanted to dois help folks who are there.
Kind of see themselves and whatthat next stage was for them.
Should they choose to open their eyes,look around, begin to notice, begin
to analyze their biases and come toan understanding and self awareness
(13:25):
and be able to see themselves.
In the system and understand, both theirdiversity dimensions and also perhaps the
privileges that have enabled their life.
And that's been certainly true for methat coming from the LGBTQ plus discipline
and that advocacy, I've also becomeextremely hyper aware of the color of
my skin and the, my education and otherfactors that have enabled me to have
(13:49):
the permission to speak, to push, toget inside, to, apply pressure and do
so with a certain degree of protection.
So now I'm learning what I don't knowand I'm learning what I'm not good at
and I'm learning, what I don't knowhow to approach and that's great.
There's a ton to be done there and I'min this stage every day, like trying
(14:11):
to read, listen, watch, put myself in,conversations where I'm not familiar and
I don't know what they're talking aboutfrom a cultural identity perspective.
Great.
I'm picking up little things and puttingthings together and thinking about, okay,
wow, there's a lot that I didn't know.
And I think if we could just get peoplethere then we can stay there and say,
(14:32):
oh, that's interesting and move on.
It's still not my problem.
So the taking on of the problem andthe opportunity is where the next phase
is, which is active, which is okay.
Now I'm going to act onwhat I've heard and learned.
And bring that with me and beginto weave it into my day to begin to
speak it, to begin to open the doorwith it, to begin to broach it, to
(14:54):
begin to I don't know, share my story.
Perhaps I haven't perhaps I don't talkabout how I grew up, a childhood of
great challenge , and, or great privilege.
What I think is most important is, tobring our full selves because others
need to see us processing throughall those things because it gives
permission to others to do the same.
(15:15):
Active is the experimentation.
It's the new language development.
It's the muscle.
It's the, it's the practice and it'sthe sort of falling off the bike and
getting back on and falling off andgetting back, it's the resiliency.
And the high humility, low ego ofacknowledging that , I'm in the building
phase in myself and building somethingnew, or I'm fostering something new in me.
(15:38):
And lots of things can be hard here.
Like I'm going to get it wrong.
I'm not going to be perfect.
I'm ashamed or embarrassed.
I don't know what to say.
I'm so Jennifer, I'm, Ihave so many privileges.
I don't know anything about this.
Cause it's not the way I grew up, andI think that's a great opportunity
to engage, especially leaders ofa certain generation and identity
in that conversation to say sowhat do you want your part to be?
(16:01):
And then I can give a lot of ideasabout ways to help ways to support,
ways to leverage what you've beengiven and what you've earned.
Certainly earned and unearned.
To me, it doesn't matter.
The point is that you have somethingwithin your reach that others don't,
and you can put that to use, towardscreating more equitable systems
(16:22):
and you can do that tomorrow.
And it's not anything that needs tobring about shame and all the things
that we normally associate with it.
And then the final phaseis advocate, which is okay.
Now I know what to do.
I'm good at it.
I will deploy it.
I will fearlessly challenge.
I have no issue with speaking thetruth, and I know how to use my voice
and I know how to create noise and.
(16:44):
Push the system and ask theinconvenient questions and challenge
myself and others to be better.
It's almost like, yes, the journey istowards advocacy at the end of the day for
collective good, and I'm also hearing apersonal journey from fear to courage.
If we can engage in that space becausefear is what breeds the insecurities,
(17:08):
fear is what breeds the ego and powerholding and as we unlearn and relearn
we get to spaces of vulnerability,authenticity, courage, , and humility,
where it is more about power sharing.
Yes.
Not as scarcity.
All of a sudden it's fromscarcity to abundance.
There.
(17:28):
Oh, I love that.
Yes.
Yes.
Scarcity is the, Oh, there'snot going to be enough for me.
Oh, if I share this or if I make roomfor others, does it mean I am losing the
world that I knew and the world that Iunderstood and know how to navigate in,
which is really fascinating question.
Look, we're losing things all the time.
(17:49):
Things are changingaround us all the time.
Yeah.
There are productive losses.
I would prefer to call it a change.
I would prefer to say that the contextis changing and how we show up and that
actually there's so much available thatwill benefit us as we let go of perhaps
what's always worked for me and what Iunderstand and my currency, if you will.
(18:14):
And there's so much available toinvestigate where we can access a
whole different part of us, as leadersbegin to exercise different muscles
and actually enhance and broadenwhat we have always done, but gain.
Deepen and become more effective.
But a lot of people do look atthis as a zero sum and there's no
(18:34):
additive benefit to them at least.
And I think that's comes from sucha fearful place that using the
opportunities we've had to createmore opportunity for others means
less for us is a really interesting,that's a really interesting math.
I think the biggest fear space.
That I've seen people hold is, oh, myGod, is everything that I've known so
(18:55):
far a lie and untrue . depending onthe identities that one holds and what
the learning is, et cetera, et cetera.
But that feels to be the deepestspace of uncertainty, insecurity.
And as humans, we're just looking to holdon to something at the end of the day.
We were given an incomplete versionof events for those of us who believe
(19:16):
that there were, histories written bythe victors, so to speak, that horrible
phrase, that's unfortunately really true.
That leaves me with, regret aboutwhat I wasn't taught, what was missing
from the curriculum that I was exposedto the role models and voices that
I saw, didn't see the way I grewup and, white patriarchal culture.
(19:38):
And , until I came out, I was verymuch in that realm and coming out
was my first piece of like liberationwas pulling out of it and saying,
wait a second, what is this?
So pulling out of a system thatyou grow up in and beginning
to chart your own path is wow.
I wish that for everyone.
(20:00):
It is such a beautiful gift.
To have the courage to do that andhave the ability to question how you
want to make your life yours, andwhat kind of legacy you want to leave.
This work that we're doing has notcome from the identities of privilege.
This work that we're doing has comefrom grassroots, advocacy, activism
(20:23):
of folk who have been at the depthsof oppression and have come out of
it or working to come out of it.
I think that's why then my reckoning withmy privileges has been fairly recent.
The trajectory of a life.
Can be the fight, right?
The liberation, the agency, theindependence, the sort of I'm
(20:43):
going to think for myself, I'mgoing to just, decide who I want
to be and what my terms are.
Mm hmm.
Mm hmm.
And then Identifying with the communitythat's not seen and heard and,
that was so strong and is so strongand will always be strong for me.
And then the ad though recently has beenthe elements of privilege that then allow
(21:04):
me into a place where I can bring thatexperience and all the learnings and all
the courage and resilience and strategicforesight to have been , in this sort of
workplace and lobbying for our rights.
It was an amazing place to, , see theview from there change, the view of
(21:25):
institutions, the view of power, the viewof how things happen strategically, like
how does change happen strategically?
And I was certainly marching, I wassuper active in that, but it's also went
to school for leadership developmentand studied how does change happen in
organizations, , who holds the levers.
And then inevitably, I had tothink about, so how will I work
(21:47):
with the circumstances in orderto get the change that I want and
what will be my toolbox in that?
And each of us is equippedwith this amazing toolbox.
And I would posit that.
There are many tools in our toolbox.
We're not aware of that.
We're probably not using and that we mayevolve from using certain tools early in
our life, which we thought were our onlytools to a more sophisticated, utilization
(22:12):
of all the pieces of who we are.
And I feel like my privileges aretools now, and I can use those.
I can platform, I can center, I canshare, I can make space for I can direct
attention to, I can highlight, I canthrow the light on things strategically.
And I love doing that now.
That gives me such great joy to dothat because I don't ever believe
(22:34):
that I'm the only voice like ever.
This is so limited , weare, our toolbox is massive.
But we are limited to our lensesand those are hard to get out
of, but why not use those?
Why not employ them in service of change?
And, that's what fascinates me.
I want to read out a commentthat we have so powerful.
(22:55):
It says scarcity, such akey piece of the puzzle.
It's an obstacle forso many on the journey.
I come against my own sense of it timeand again, and really need to step back
and see how false a narrative it gives.
This is something we heara lot within organizations.
So for someone who is looking to workthemselves further on the continuum
(23:16):
let's say from active to advocate.
But , they are not changemakers withinwhere they sit in the organization.
They might not have the spaces of poweror they feel that they have that right.
What do you say to someone whowants to do more but feels limited?
By let's say the status, the role,the identity is of the combination
(23:40):
of all of which that they hold.
There's the imposter syndrome,which I think we really
have to be aware of, right?
That, voice, I think this comment isgetting at, which is when you hear that
you need to play small and you are smalleror less consequential or don't matter.
It really, we do internalize it.
And we also internalize the hidingin the organizational context,
(24:02):
the hiding of our true selves.
And it becomes a habit.
It becomes who we areif we're not careful.
And so a lot of the awakenings Iwitness in some of my rooms is that
people are, have so many diversitydimensions that they are like, wow,
I have not been in service of these.
I haven't been respecting these in me.
I haven't been bringing them to thefour and I, and you can see the wheels
(24:25):
turning around like old narratives or.
Like that we're living in a, inthe past in terms of, I don't
know much harm was caused to uswhen we tried to be authentic.
I think , we have to really reevaluatea lot around the changing times
and the changing of the environmentaround us, which is always shifting.
(24:46):
There's always opportunities to be,to use and find your voice in a new
way and to step forward and lead.
But we stop before we start.
, we have a little seedling andwe like kill it, and that's
the seedling of our leadership.
And the thing that grows in us, whichwould generate a light for others.
But we think it's small or insignificant,or we were told that, or, I thought, I
(25:09):
always tell the story far before I toldmy, I did gave my Ted talk like 10 years
ago or so I thought losing my, I was asinger and I lost my voice as a singer.
I had some surgeries and lotsof drama around that, but I
thought that was my story.
I mean, that was the biggest thing thathad happened to me to lose my artistic
dream and my means to express myself.
(25:29):
And so I told that storyfrom the stage, but I was.
So I had so much imposter syndrome,like so much, and that it didn't matter
that it, nobody would want to knowthat it, Oh, poor me, like big deal.
And just going through all of thatand, just being horrible to ourselves.
In killing our story before it evengets a chance to breathe and gets
(25:51):
a chance to get its roots and seethe sun and be watered and nurtured.
And I think if I could give anyadvice at all, it's that we are
each of us change makers that ourenvironment is changing all the time.
And we have to really lookat each new day as a new day.
We need to reevaluate.
What's in my favor today?
What opening do I have?
What opportunity do I have?
(26:12):
What do I want to say?
Just be aware, like this stuff is heavy.
The messages we get about ourworthiness are super heavy and have
been happening for a long time, allaround us in our families, in society,
and So , pulling those out by theroot in us, really looking at them
saying, thank you for serving me.
(26:33):
You probably served me at some point in mylife, but you're not serving me anymore.
Yeah.
Leave, and embody, thatpowerful messenger.
And, I think that's so important.
Everybody's voice matters and everyone's.
Combination of ingredients is goingto be so different and so unique.
And that combination iswhat people need to see.
It's not just, Oh, well, there's so manyother speakers that identify like I do,
(26:55):
or there's so many other messengers.
No, your particular combo is what's magic.
And your particular way of parsing itand putting it together is so needed.
Somebody needs to hear it andsomebody will be changed by it.
I love this what I'm getting outof this is stories are powerful,
irrespective of who we are.
Our stories are powerful and our storieshave the capacity to create learning.
(27:20):
But if we get in our own way, becauseof our imposter, Someone's losing out
on learning from our story, and we aregetting in our own way of wanting to
be that advocate, that change speaker.
That, needle mover or noise creator,drum beater is what I use a lot.
But what a great connection ofour sense of self worth or lack
(27:44):
of has a direct relationship.
With how we show up asinclusive changemakers.
We don't have to be in the C suite.
We don't have to be senior vicepresidents wherever we are.
I always say we're leadersby choice or default.
So might as well choose being a leader.
Oh, that's good.
Move, move from that space.
So we spoke about, someone with nota lot of power, wanting to do more.
(28:08):
Moving to the other side of someonewho is been an advocate, right?
I love the emphasis that you'vemade over and over again, that
advocacy comes from humility lackof ego and a lot of courage.
And how do we make sure that thereis a line with those qualities?
And not moving over to thesavior of, I have to do this.
(28:30):
I have to be the protective one.
I have to save this organization or,that, space of what I call internalized
entitlement that just suddenlycomes on for various reasons again.
The best part of the ego is itpushes us to take center stage and I
would hate not to have that show upsometimes because you got to be tough.
(28:53):
To step up and step forward and you've gotto believe people want to hear what you
have to say and so part of the utilizationof privilege, I think, is actually being
the loudest voice in the room is holdingpeople to account that look like you.
So I'm not sure there's a lotof humility in that, but in a
perfect world, you'd be able tobalance your advocacy with inquiry.
(29:16):
Those are 2 of my favorite words.
Inquiry is.
So where are people at vis a vis thisand advocacy is how do I use my voice?
To compliment this so that, I'm notsucking up all the air in the room and
I'm inquisitive, I'm curious and I'mcreating openness, but at the same time
I'm putting the right, subjectivelyspeaking ideas into the space, into
(29:39):
the water I'm planting these seeds.
So it's this forward and back thing thatI think you're constantly inhabiting
both, you're figuring out where's my voiceneeded, but then when do I need to seed.
The platform I have, where do I needto step in and say something that
needs to be said, but then when doI need to make sure somebody else
says it, or where am I listening?
It's this constantshape shifting in a way.
(30:02):
But I love it.
I don't feel it that any of thoseselves for me are not authentic to
me, and I think the true skill.
Of this is that the knowing when havingthe capacity to do either thing or to
step in and provide exactly what's needed.
In that position, but thattakes great sensitivity and
(30:24):
great powers of observation.
And like I said, being prepared forthe moment when you have a moment, and
that's the moment you need to seizeand then also being humble enough that.
You can give that moment to others andthat you can orchestrate it from behind
if that's the role that you most needto play to be in service, the assumption
(30:45):
that I know what's needed right here.
And I'm going to do it, and weget very full of ourselves and
our mission and, all energized andfierce, fierce fierceness is good.
I want fierce protectors and allies.
I actually really like that.
Because sometimes I don't have thevoice to the question we had earlier.
Sometimes I'm wrestling withimposter syndrome myself.
(31:06):
So when somebody has a strongvoice as my advocate, is a really
unique, amazing feeling for me.
I'll just speak for myselfthat not to rob me of my voice.
But to provide me what it lookslike, knowing what I know now and
knowing how I use my voice, I'mvery careful to support as defined
(31:29):
by the recipient of that support.
And I'm super careful tosay, to check in, to not make
assumptions, to say, let me pause.
Let me check in.
Let me find out what would thisperson like me to do, if anything?
And maybe the answer is nothing, right?
Cause some people arenot going to be like me.
Some people are going to be like.
Oh, I've got this taken care of.
(31:50):
Don't worry about me.
Like I'm going to have theconversation and I'll be like, great.
Awesome.
Just wanted to check in on other cases.
It's do you want me?
Would you like me to say something?
How would you like to besupported in this moment?
And I think we have to be open tothe answer and then be steered and
to allow yourself to be steered.
Even if the answer is, I don'tneed anything at this moment.
(32:11):
Yeah.
I think that even just noticing though,that's things happen, noticing touching
base, letting others know they'renot alone, letting people know you're
not okay with things is beautiful.
That's the skillset, but then whatis done about it should be dictated
by the person that was impacted
to be that effectiveadvocate on the continuum.
(32:34):
We have to learn how tobe an effective ally.
And you've been talking alot about allyship in your
small videos and LinkedIn.
And that is the crux of the definition.
Why don't you tell us who is an ally?
So I think that it's an easy termto claim, but I think honestly it's
a very hard thing to earn and itshould be, the bar should be high.
(32:55):
We never, rest and become once and forall it's we earn it or not like over and
over again and in the eyes of others.
It's to me, it's verysimilar to, good leadership.
If you think you're a good leader, fine.
That doesn't matter to me as much as howyour leadership is experienced and how
it lands and what you create for others.
Three, three 60 degree reviewsare wonderful for that reason.
(33:17):
If people are honest tosay Hey, how can I improve?
It's not about me andmy own self estimation.
So I've got to decide though, tobe an ally, to be an ally someday,
you have to commit and practice it.
And so it's weird because you can'tgive it the label to yourself,
but you also, you have to declareit to yourself as a priority.
(33:39):
And to me , there's alot of a words, right?
There's accomplice ally advocate.
I don't really differentiate between them.
I think it's personal preference.
Some people hate one ofthem for some reason.
Accomplice I think is neatbecause I think of it as.
Somebody who's scheming to, accomplishsomething together and bringing, something
to bear for a goal and alongside.
(34:02):
However, you want me to be your coconspirator, we will conspire to do
something versus allies sometimes canhave a connotation of the savior piece.
The sort of, I'm going to share somethingI have with you, and it's a bit of
the privilege piece too, is interesting.
Cause we have to be careful not toassume all these people have all the
(34:23):
privilege and all these people don't.
I think that's how I understood it fora very long time, but now I'm looking
at it as these ingredients, that weall have privileges of certain kinds,
different kinds, and that, we can be.
We can be applying them in a 360degree shape versus from, like you
say, saviorism, like from on highsort of sharing or bestowing, I
(34:46):
want to get away from that because Idon't love that for a lot of reasons.
It's very hierarchical, but it'salso assumes that some of us have.
Things and others don't, but I challengeall identities in my audience to
recognize who are you sponsoring?
How are you opening doors and utilizing,you can be in your late twenties, early
career, and you should be deploying.
(35:09):
The things, the relationships andnetworks, you have the capital that you
have, you should be vouching for people.
You should be lifting them up.
And I know, you're like, Oh,I'm not even mature enough in
my career to be doing that.
But I disagree.
Maybe you have.
You're able bodied, maybe youhave a certain education, maybe you
have a certain, lived experienceof living all over the world or
language, privilege, there's alwayssomething there's always a cisgender.
(35:33):
I don't want to say cisgender andthis is a privilege because I think
gender identities are beautiful andwonderful and give us all kinds of.
Insights and wisdom and privileges.
But I can say when I share my pronounsI do so from a place of, I have a degree
of alignment in my gender, sense of mygender and the gender that I was born in.
(35:53):
That is, that's something that Ihaven't had to reconcile in my life
and haven't had to have the fearand the difficulty of being like,
how am I going to live my truth?
And is that different than whatpeople see or how people react to me?
So , it's very interesting justto notice the world is built for
some of us and not for others.
And bias is a thing.
(36:14):
And, when we can live aday and not experience.
Everything that somebody elseexperiences, you have to at some point
to step apart from that and say, sohow am I given that this is easier?
It gives me more bandwidthto actually turn around and
put it back into the system.
(36:34):
To whom much is given, much isexpected and much is expected.
I wake up thinking, howam I making this right?
Because if I benefited disproportionately,I want to make that right and I want to
give it back and I want to expand so that,that leaves a different legacy behind
me than the one that I was born into.
(36:54):
Inclusive leadership is also aboutpaying it forward or giving back.
Usually,
And the other thing I want to emphasizeis when you said you have to earn being
an ally over and over again, and that'swhy we call ourselves practitioners.
Because it is a practicethat we won't always.
Be experts at some days will be good days.
(37:15):
Other days we'll do not so good.
It's almost like relearningfor us as well in this space.
Now, what does allyship looklike two years ago that now
seems a little too performative.
This is what is likely needed orbeing told that so even though
the concept of what allyship lookslike is shifting and changing as
(37:35):
a world is shifting and changing.
You're so right.
It used to be enough to say the things,and brands have gone through this too.
Yeah and then the accountability nowis deeper, which is because things
are so transparent, okay, so you didthis ad. It was this beautiful ad
and then we look at your board andyou have no diversity on your board.
So I love that, everything isbeing dug up in a way to say do,
(37:56):
does, do the words match the music?
Is this fully aligned across?
Everything that you do andeverything that you touch.
And we're not there yet.
Companies that are some of the mostrespected companies in the world, like
still have practices like globally,for example, in their supply chain
that are extremely distressing orenvironmental practices, or just
aren't doing enough on social issues.
(38:17):
So there's no, when people are like, Oh,what's the best company or this or that?
I'm like, I don't even know how to answerthat because . It's just such a mixed bag.
There are parts ofcompanies that are great.
There are certain practicesthat are super cutting edge.
And then there's others that theyprobably don't want anyone to see
everything in between.
And that's why ESG is so important.
As we bring these things into alignmentand begin to measure them and begin
(38:37):
to hold the system accountable fordoing better in these main areas.
, I think it's a powerful measuringstick and the S of course, ESG is as
a social and within that, lives thisDEI piece lives, corporate social
responsibility and supply chain andsupplier diversity and all this.
That's that lives in thesocial, but it matters in that
(38:59):
it will matter more and more.
And I don't think we are going backwards.
If anything, it's going to accelerateand get even more accountability,
which is good news for us.
Cause that's going to be the wind beneathour wings for the work that we do.
I love how you named this complexitythat one person or a group of people
might have the best experience at thiscompany, best place to work, et cetera.
(39:19):
And yet what the company standsfor their practices overall.
They might be creating belonging andpsychological safety for their people
capital within the organization, but whatthey do, what they stand for, how they're
impacting society and humanity at large.
If that is off, there areso many elements to this.
Or vice versa, so many, the performativeand then the horrible culture.
(39:43):
I've had companies that shall remainnameless, who are like super duper
champions for LGBTQ people and causes.
And then I meet a friend who worksfor that company who's closeted.
And it's like one of thoserecord scratch moments.
Okay, wait a second.
Like we've been touting this, or this isthe company that's won all the awards or
whatever, but then like you need somebodyand they're like, I can't wait to leave.
(40:03):
How can I encourage the practice ofDEI in a group that is very stagnant,
but preaches DEI, helping those aroundme see and adapt DEI practices when
I'm not as influential as some of theleaders in the organization without
bringing a sense of pressure for change.
Coalitions of people, if you can formthem, even if you can find an ally
(40:26):
someone who is willing to, co advocateand perhaps from a different identity,
perhaps from a group that has influence.
That's a powerful combination.
So I think when we try to do thingsalone it makes it harder for sure.
I think that we put ourselvesat risk in a weird way.
We stick our neck out and I think morestrategic approach is to gather, folks
(40:50):
who are passionate who see and havethe same understanding of the gap too.
So there, let me back up and sayyou may see a gap in terms of walk
and near the talk and the practice.
And so I would start withso who agrees with that?
What is the gap and how have we madethat verbally, how we made that visually.
(41:11):
Apparent.
How have we documented that?
That would be where I wouldstart and documenting something.
Facts are important.
Data is important.
So we say this, but we do this, right?
And here are five examples.
How many people believe that'strue and have seen that and
believe that it needs to change?
How do we gather a coalition aroundus to so that we're not the only one?
And also remembering that everybodyhas a different gift as a change maker.
(41:34):
Some of us are noisy.
Some of us are fearless.
Some of us are supporters.
Some of us are, work our way through,my friend says, heat and light.
We are either like you work throughlight, you work through heat, but it takes
this like blend of different messengersdelivering the same message, I think
to get a critical mass to be heard.
(41:55):
So a lot of this that I've justdescribed is all prep work.
In a way, things that need to proceedan effort and acknowledging, if we're
young in our life and career or ourDEI advocacy, and we don't really
quite know what we're best at, I knowfor me, I'm meant to be a messenger.
I'm not the technician.
I'm not the researcher.
There's a lot of things I'm notand so that clarity continues
(42:17):
to come to me the older I get.
And it's still getting very specific butthe early days I was yes to everything.
Yes, we can do it.
Yes.
I can, which was a lot when you're anentrepreneur, it's what you do and you
try to get clients and stay afloat.
But I think that preparing,working smarter, not harder.
(42:38):
If you want to go far, go together, allthese wonderful proverbs, I think are,
metaphors for change and how changehappens and the groundwork for change.
And if you are smart about how you setit up, you will achieve your goal without
having a huge cost on you from a fatigueperspective, or maybe from a career
(42:59):
limiting reactions to bringing a messagethat people may not be receptive of, but I
think it's doing it together and getting alot of viewpoints on how to do it because
organizations are complex and yes, nobodywants to change, but I think that within
an organization, it's not a monolith.
There are potential supporterseverywhere around us.
(43:19):
There are champions waiting to beasked, waiting to be ignited waiting
to have an aha moment because of aone on one conversation and all of a
sudden one becomes two, becomes three.
And so I don't want people tofeel they have to do this alone.
And honestly, I don't thinkwe're as effective alone.
And also being really aware,who do you know, who has a
(43:40):
degree of power and influence?
Like how can we join ourselves?
What we don't have?
Who has it?
And how can we build a relationship thatwe can learn from each other and then
set out together to accomplish things.
I know a lot of pairs far out.
It's really interesting.
I've been meaning to write something aboutthis because there are pairs of people.
(44:02):
In organizations that I know, and askanyone in DNI work and they will tell
you who their biggest champion is.
They will tell you, they will tell youthat they call that person up, they email
them, they conspire, they make a plan.
And usually, sometimes thisis a woman, sometimes the
champion is a senior executive.
That one person that gets it and thenthey're in partnership and relationship
(44:26):
with the lead of D and I, who sometimesis a woman who sometimes a person of
color but that bond is really strong.
And I've seen this over and over again,it's this partnership and it works because
of , perhaps the different kinds of powereach person has because of the differences
of lived experience and the combination.
And a strategic planning that youcan do with others as you look at
(44:49):
the organization and say how wouldwe begin to socialize this idea
that something needs to change?
How do we begin to document it?
How do we need to quantify the problem?
Who needs to know about it?
Who are our early study change management?
Who are the early champions and theearly wins that we might achieve?
Thinking through people ask me,like, how do I learn how to do DNI?
(45:10):
And I'm like, go study change managementand organizational, development,
like things and leadership, gostudy how a system, what are the
seeds of change that can be planted?
Now, this is not glamorous.
It's not the big thing.
, it's very systematic actually.
And it requires us to do somethingwith those fierce emotions
(45:32):
and the fire that we have.
Maybe channeling it into being thoughtfulbecause what we want is lasting change.
That's what we want.
So we have to do this differently thanI think a lot of us think we do it.
We think that just through the big,blaze of glory that we've somehow
changed something permanently, buta lot of times that isn't true.
(45:55):
So I think a lot about thatand , let's do the longterm work,
even though it requires a lot ofdiscipline and patience on our part.
But let's be dedicated tocreating the lasting sustainable
change , and making noise for sure.
But yeah, I'm being strategic.
You laid out that nonlinear path islikely the most effective, right?
To create change, first build yournetwork, build your sponsorship.
(46:18):
Ooh,
that's what I heard loud and clear
love it
find those people who don't have thelevels of privilege and influence
and power that you have conspire withthem, but build that relationship,
create that network first, becausethat collective momentum that you
speak off over and over is what'sgoing to help initiate the change.
(46:38):
And so we may or may not be therewhen change actually happens, but it's
about planting the seeds and creatingthe foundation that sometimes is more
important than seeing change through
20 years in my own company here.
I'm aware that I got it started.
I got it started, and , therewas a lot of hard work.
And some days now I feel the momentumjust is carrying us and carrying me.
(47:03):
So what you just said is so beautiful thatagain, , there's a reason and a season,
there's a stage and change that we mayplay a really powerful role because of
what we're good at and what we know howto do, but it doesn't mean we've got
to , and we won't see, we may not see,but we need to be able to hand it off.
We need to be able to build somethingthat somebody else can take and really.
(47:24):
Run with and magnify and scale.
For example, use thinking ofentrepreneurs and how we grow businesses.
Founders aren't often the CEO that takesthe company into the next stage, because
it's just such a different skillset.
So same thing is true with DNI efforts.
It's truly knowing , who you have aroundyou, who you can leverage strategically.
And when your time is, and perhapswhen you pass it off, ERGs go through
(47:47):
this succession planning all the time,stepping down of chairs, stepping down
of the original leaders who becauseof just sheer force of personality,
activated something, but thenthe maturation of an effort is
what matters for the long term.
And that sometimes requires adifferent team, a different leader.
Incredible.
Jennifer, thank you somuch for just wisdom.
(48:09):
I'm loving how personal we got interms of this work is directly connected
with our sense of self or lack of it.
So thank you for openingup that possibility.
It's through community thatwe, continue to be inspired.
Thank you for being inmy community, Jennifer.
And I look forward to whereelse and what else you do.
(48:31):
And Amara, you know that you and I aregoing to be continuing to conspire.
So continue.
I'm looking forward to it.
We continue the exploration ofworkplace culture with our next
episode, Coaching for Inclusion.
Thank you for listening to Farsight Chats.
I hope that this episode is the startto future conversations you have with
(48:52):
your colleagues, teams, and communities.
Subscribe now to Farsight Chatswherever you get your podcasts.
And don't forget to follow us onInstagram and Facebook at GoFarsight,
LinkedIn at the Farsight Agency, andcheck out our website, GoFarsight.
com to know more aboutwho we are and what we do.
(49:13):
Thank you for answering the call todo more, do better and do different.
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