EP22: Coaching For Inclusion

In this episode of FARSIGHT Chats, host Farah Bala, founder and CEO of FARSIGHT, discusses the critical aspects of inclusive coaching with three expert leadership coaches: Dr. Towanna Burrous, Carolyn Chan, and Dr. Victor McGuire. They explore foundational principles of leadership, the significance of executive coaching for inclusion, and the importance of proper coaching certifications. The conversation delves into the necessity of diverse representation in coaching, methodologies, and the coach approach versus mentoring. The impact of cultural, behavioral, and personality assessments and the importance of adapting these tools for more diverse contexts is emphasized. The nuanced differences between coaching and other advisory roles, the importance of rigorous coaching training, the challenges and opportunities in integrating AI into coaching, and the critical role of inclusion in fostering innovative and effective leadership are all packed into this conversation. This episode is for aspiring and practicing coaches, as well as those looking to leverage coaching for personal and professional growth.

| KEY TOPICS DISCUSSED |

Coaching Essentials

• Coaching is transformational, forward-looking, and different from mentoring or therapy.
• Certification builds credibility, skill, and trust.
• Leaders benefit from using a coach-like approach to foster accountability and growth.

Coaching for Inclusion

• Inclusion coaching supports diversity, innovation, engagement, and better decision-making.
• Focus on both visible and invisible diversity (e.g., culture, values, thinking styles).
• Leaders often include selectively; inclusion must become consistent and intentional.

Organizational Impact

• Inclusive coaching boosts retention, performance, and leadership pipelines.
• Lack of inclusive leadership leads to lost talent and organizational stagnation.

Assessments in Coaching

• Assessments are useful starting points, not definitive.
• Coaches must interpret through a DEI lens and focus on behavioral tools over personality-based ones.

Coaching Industry Challenges

• The field is still predominantly white and male.
• Programs like Coach Diversity Institute and Coaching for Everyone aim to diversify coaching and increase access.

Certification Tips

Choose programs based on:

• Rigor
• Alignment with DEI goals
• Real-world coaching practice

AI & Coaching

• AI is a tool, not a replacement.
• Use AI for pre/post coaching support while staying mindful of bias and representation.

| SHOW NOTES |

00:00 Introduction to FARSIGHT Chats

02:51 Meet the Expert Coaches

04:20 Understanding the Coach Approach

06:31 The Importance of Certification

11:40 Coaching for Inclusion

27:28 The Role of Assessments in Coaching

33:42 The Role of Authenticity in Coaching

35:54 Challenges in the Coaching Industry

36:54 Addressing Diversity Gaps in Coaching

43:18 Global Perspectives on Coaching

46:49 Choosing the Right Coaching Certification

53:20 The Impact of AI on Coaching

01:01:54 Concluding Thoughts and Future Directions

| WORKS CITED |

Assessments (Behavioral & Personality)

• MBTI
• StandOut Assessment

Episode Transcript

(00:02):
Welcome to Farsight Chats, your guideto navigating complex and important
conversations on workplace culture.
I'm your host, Farah Bala,founder and CEO of Farsight.
We specialize in leadership andorganizational development, focusing
on equity, diversity, and inclusionas core leadership competencies.

(00:22):
Join us in these conversationsthat aim to foster understanding,
growth, and positive change.
On today's episode,coaching for inclusion.
I am joined by three exceptionalleadership coaches, Dr. Tawana Burrows,
Carolyn Chan, and Victor McGuire.
We originally recordedthis in the summer of 2023.

(00:43):
In our last episode, we talked about thegrowth needed to build one's inclusive
leadership mindset and skill set.
And when it comes to developing theseskills, there is no better process
than engaging in executive coaching.
As a leadership coach myself, I knowfirsthand the impact of coaching, not
just on one's leadership, but also onone's team and organization itself.

(01:08):
So in this episode, we bringyou the coach's perspective on
foundations of leadership andhow to develop one's toolkit.
It is packed with resources aroundprofessional development, coaching
certifications, different types ofbehavioral and personality assessments.
We also cover the need for diverserepresentation of coaches, especially

(01:30):
today, as most of the coachingindustry is still very white.
As you listen in today.
Consider the notion that leadershipis an art as well as a science,
where the student comes in withthe art in their mind, and the
coach guides them with the science.
This conversation is for you, whetheryou're an aspiring or practicing

(01:51):
coach, or if you're someone whois looking for coaching, you might
also get something out of it.
If you already know the value ofworking with an executive coach.
So when you listen in today,I'll invite you to consider...
if you were given the gift of a coachingengagement, what skills would you
like to develop through the process?
And if you're a people leader, how canyour coaching skills help you support your

(02:15):
team even better than you currently do?
Join us on this journey oflearning and unlearning in
today's episode of Farsight Chats.
Topic for today, Coaching for Inclusion.
This is something that I havelived with through my career.
And I know that these esteemed guestsover here are also thinking of this in

(02:40):
a very unique way, which is why I'm sothrilled to have Dr. Tawana Burrows,
Carolyn Chan, Victor McGuire join usas our guests for this conversation.
I am going to hand it over to you toplease introduce yourselves to us.
All right.
I'm Dr. Tawana Burles.
I am president and founderof Coach Diversity Institute.

(03:01):
We provide three service areas.
First, coaching certification forthose who are wanting to learn
how to coach across diverse lines.
We're the only in the world thatcombines the coaching skill set with the
diversity, inclusion and equity work.
We also provide executive coachesto organizations organizations that

(03:21):
are minimum 300 and above in size.
And then we provide uniquetraining and education in the
space of leadership developmentas well as diversity education.
Hi, I'm Carolyn Chan.
I'm a senior principal withthe Corn Fairy organization.
We're an organizational consulting.
We do leadership work with theassessment and coaching division

(03:43):
and also work in the uh, space.
I consider myself a student of leadershipbecause I think this is an area that
we're always continuing to learn.
It's a lifelong learning journey.
And I'm just really excitedabout the topic today.
Hello everyone, I'm Dr. McGuireand I'm the president and
founder of Coaching for Everyone.
We have two missions.
One is we provide pro bono coaching tounderrepresented individuals that may

(04:08):
have not heard of coaching or might not.
Be in financial positionto even afford coaching.
And then our other is we providecoach training opportunities for
individuals that are interested ingoing through a certification program.
My first question to all ofyou is for anyone who is new
to the concept of coaching.

(04:29):
Could you help us understandwhat is the coach approach, how
is it different from mentoring.
What is the importance of being certifiedversus not who can coach, who should
not be coaching just your perspectivesaround all things, the coach approach.
I often look at coaching as a just away of engaging with people one on one.

(04:51):
It's a very confidential process.
It's about meeting people where they'reat really in terms of their journey
and what they may be going through.
So oftentimes.
I work with many of our clientsin our corporate coaching space.
And it is really about understandingassessing where they are now, if they'd
like to go, what's getting in the way andjust really having those conversations

(05:13):
to help move someone forward in this.
Area of transformation.
If you look at the poorcompetencies of coaching they
can be applied almost anywhere inyour personal professional life.
There's a coach approach to mentoring.
There's a coach approach to leadership.
There's a. Coach approach to therapyand counseling, and we call those
individuals coach clinicians.

(05:34):
So, because there's so many ways youcan apply the coaching skill, it is
not necessarily restricted to anyonewho just wants to be a practicing
coach with their private practice isnow a lot broader, but I do submit.
That it is necessary to receive , propertraining in this space, because
like Carolyn said, it's a verypersonal journey of transformation.

(05:56):
And because you're working with peopleand their lives, it's important to
know exactly how to appropriatelymanage the dialogue and the as you
inspire, but at the same time, shiftpeople from one state to another,
because many people come to coaching,feeling powerless, feeling unsure.
And by the time you've gone through agreat coaching session, you're feeling

(06:16):
inspired, you're feeling motivated,and you are in a more powerful place.
And so when you think about that level ofintimacy and connection you really want
to make sure you know what you're doing.
So I am a major advocate forcertification, whether you
want to practice independently.
Or use it in your day to day.
What we're talking aboutis credibility and trust.

(06:37):
And you know, only earning a coachingcertification from a reputable
organization provides validation, foryour skills and towards your knowledge.
It enhances your skillsand different techniques.
And actually you get to access a network.
of people that are involved withthe certified coaching community.
And then frankly your potential for higherearnings happens because you're certified

(07:02):
which can impact your client base.
So there's a variety of reasonsof the importance and the pros
of being, a certified coach.
What I'm hearing is througha certification process you're
gaining skills, tools, credibility.
And this might be for anyonewho wants to be a better coach
or pursue a career in coaching.

(07:23):
There is a messaging out there inleadership development that along
with managing people and giving themfeedback, it is also their role to develop
them and coach them and unleash theirpotential of who their direct reports
and colleagues can be in this world.
What do you say to, those leaders?
Does everyone need to be certifiedhow does one expect them to show up

(07:46):
effectively as coaches to their teams?
Dr. Burroughs mentioned this earlier.
I think there's somethingto be said about it.
She might not have used this language,but there's something about being coached
like, okay, and you can be coached like.
Without being certified, one of thereasons why the coaching habit, Michael
Bunger stain his book has been sopopular because he talks about being

(08:11):
coach like in that work environment.
I think it goes across areas,people ask me all the time.
What's the difference between,coaching and even therapy And just
to give the quick elevator, I'll say,well, coaching tends to look forward.
Therapy tends to lookbackwards a little bit.
And so it just depends on where you are.
But the implementation ofcoaching practice and what

(08:32):
coaching is it's cross platforms.
It's a variety, but you can becoached like in the leadership that
you are delivering across the board.
We see more and more leaders havingcoaching as a skill set, developing
your skills of listening moreintentionally asking better questions,
really helping their teams be better.

(08:54):
Developing this as a skill and.
To Victor's point earlier about just thepast and the future, I've often heard
of many of the different professionsthat are out there between coaching.
You mentioned mentoring.
There's consulting.
There is counseling.
Coaching is the only 1.
Unlike those other professions.
They tend to tell you what to do,whereas coaching is the only one

(09:17):
that's much more about asking.
And I'd like to add something that hasn'tbeen said so far, because I co sign on all
of what Victor and Caroline have added, isthat what we're finding more frequently in
is many organizations are bleeding money.
They're losing money handoverbecause of a lack of accountability.

(09:38):
We know that we have a laborissues , a lot of people are
struggling with being able to hire thetalent needed for certain positions.
But in doing that, though, wehave come from a culture of
codependency and leadership.
And one thing about the coachingskills that it helps you to push
accountability within allows the employee.
To lean in or step up to be moreengaged and truly find that professional

(10:04):
development connection and the leadersthat are coming through coach diversity,
they're not wanting to be certifiedcoaches, but they want the coach
approach because they understand thevalue of accountability and pushing
that level of leadership that engagesan employee by just simply asking them
key questions regarding what aboutthis project is not inspiring you.

(10:25):
That question is verydifferent from what's going on.
Like, why are you meeting the deadlines?
What about this project that isno longer or not inspiring you?
Then you can solve the problem and help.
But before in traditional leadership.
A lot of us who were raised in commandand control leadership South, we

(10:46):
just jump in and solve the problem.
We would stay late and everybodyelse would leave early.
We'd be there all night longworking because we believe that
was our responsibility as leaders.
And because of that, we've createda whole generation of employees who
are so codependent on our leadershipand they're wanting to please us.
But at the same time.
We're compensating for their lackof engagement or their lack of

(11:09):
commitment or their accountability.
So that is why the coaching skill set hasbecome so popular inside of organizations.
And the coach approach toleadership and leading as a
coach has reaped great benefits.
And I've seen it time and timeagain, and I am truly a fan.
These are exploratory conversationstowards what Carolyn said,

(11:30):
that transformational process.
Looking ahead to Victor's point andto wanna that ultimate umbrella of
really investing in your people anddeveloping them and retaining them,
hopefully, and unleashing their potential.
I want to turn now to this topiccoaching for inclusion specifically.
There is a lot going on in the worldin terms of social, political, cultural

(11:53):
conversations, just in the United Statesthat , the affirmative action, Supreme
Court ruling, et cetera, there is a lothappening the book banning who is going
to read what kind of history, , andall of what happens externally impacts
the culture within an organization.
And so I'd love to hear from you.
What do you think is so crucial aboutcoaching for inclusion in a coaching

(12:18):
engagement in a coaching process.
I'll just hit some bullets I put somebullets down in regards to this one
is just the fact that you're embracingdiversity, inclusion coaching.
Helps individuals andorganizations embrace diversity
pretty much, in all forms.
It also helps with.
Improving what I call the decisionmaking, when you've got different

(12:41):
diverse perspectives at the table, asfar as making decisions, then you've
added value to the process, let's sayclassic movies, and now put together
of the hundred most classic movies,and then I look at that list.
And if they're classic, thentypically they're older.

(13:03):
Maybe they're in the 40s,the 50s, even the 60s.
And I'm thinking of the populationsthat didn't even get a sniff at
being a part of those movies.
That quote made them classic.
So when you can improve, peoplesitting around the table as
far as a decision making.
It also fosters innovation.

(13:25):
It enhances employees engagement.
You can go on and on.
It reduces bias and discrimination.
I'll stop there because I thinkthe list can go on and on.
Strengthening teamwork, meetingdiverse customers needs.
, and you probably know this, want to have,, on one of my websites, not coaching for

(13:46):
everyone, but on one of my other websitesof another business, it says, do your
BIPOC employees Prefer a BIPOC coach.
Okay.
And then in small letters, it saysthe short answer is yes, they do
have two perspectives The first oneis the global marketplace coaching

(14:09):
for inclusion is critical becausewe are now in a global marketplace.
We are now seeing a number of differentcorporations that are now blended
, either foreign companies have acquiredUS based companies or vice versa.
And in doing that, there is a needfor understanding and clarity.
So diversity automatically exists whenyou start pushing continents together,
or different countries and cultures.

(14:30):
So the diversity is there.
Yeah.
What happens, though, is depending onhow evolved you are as a leader or how
much the organization has committed toinclusion in the culture of inclusion.
They may need that support, theymay need an understanding on how to
navigate through the cultures, nowthat they're all one big family.

(14:50):
So I've noticed For us, we are seeingthe new idea of how we can better
get to know one another as a company.
So the inclusion culture is important.
But then there's the othercompany who is not as diverse.
They have a desire to bediverse, but they haven't.
Had the initiative or thestrategic plan long enough.

(15:12):
So the hiring for diversityis taking some time.
So that means you have ahomogeneous work environment.
Still, the question is, in that case, areyou looking at diversity from a layer one?
where everyone is looking the same,they come from the same Ivy League, and
everything's homogeneous in that way.
Or are you now looking at that groupand realizing, wait a minute, there is

(15:34):
a layer two of diversity where cultureexists, education exists, marital
status exists, and so many other things.
Knowledge exists in the lower,or what is unseen in diversity.
To where to be inclusive in theway Victor described it would mean
I need to understand this person'sthinking ability, whether they as

(15:56):
far as new or diversity and mentalhealth, there's all kinds of things
that exist below the diversity line.
And in doing that, how am I beingsupportive of the people that
I'm leading beyond a homogeneousgroup, what is it underneath that?
Layer of understanding that Ineed to now lean in and be more
investigative and prepare myselffor innovation and creativity.

(16:20):
If everyone's the same,they look the same.
They came from the same school.
There's another layer of diversity.
It needs to be extracted so that youcan have innovation and creativity
in ways you haven't before.
So there's two perspectives.
Those who are very diverse, Needing tomake sure that all voices are heard and
those who are not as diverse and needingto find that space of innovation create

(16:43):
to you by going lower, defining theuniqueness is because we're all human and
we're all very different in our humanness.
And I'll just echo, everything I thinkthat gives a lot of stats out there in
terms of diverse organizations beingthat much more effective when there is
A focus on this and really helping toadvance, those leaders that are inclusive.
They're better.

(17:03):
They just have much more engagement intheir teams and perform much better.
So many studies have been done.
And I think echoing something that Juanasaid about the cultures, I think there's
a real opportunity as the workforcechanges to really understand each other.
Now, more than ever.
And I take a global perspective whenit comes to, what is diversity?

(17:26):
Really?
We can talk a little bit about genderand our different national cultures.
But what is it truly to havea global lens on diversity?
And even something as simple likeour identities in the place like
the U s. It's about the self.
We are encouraged sinceyoung have a point of view.
What do you think?
And it is about I, in order to bean effective leader, but , I'll

(17:49):
talk about the Asian cultures.
It's what's good for the collective.
It's about the group, or it couldbe something as simple as emotions.
When it comes to leadership, it'svery expressive in the West and
much more restrained in the East.
And so when we look at real inclusion,are we open minded enough to really put
our own biases aside of what effectiveleadership looks like and really dig

(18:13):
into opening our own mindsets in howwe look at people in the workforce.
If I might connect, Carolyn, whatyou said, to wanna, the global
marketplace at this point youmight be part of the same company.
With different regional cultures.
And if I were to make reallytactical that, example that you
gave us earlier to wanna have.
You could either ask what's goingon with the deadlines or what

(18:35):
about this process is not inspiringthe response to that question.
If there is true curiosity aboutunderstanding that perspective can
unpack so much can reveal and surfaceso much about that person's experience,
whether dealing with a differentregion, dealing with the same team
members and how they might be perceived.
Now it might well be, anaccountability conversation.

(18:58):
Absolutely.
But there is an opportunity that we mightmiss if we were not curious, if we didn't
inquire, if we didn't wonder what else,how else can this person be supported?
And so super duper important.
The other piece, Carolyn, from whatyou said that I'm being reminded of
is that inclusion looks different.
In different cultures, right?

(19:20):
To your point, U. S. Has a wholedifferent conversation around E. D.
I. A. With a really Understandablyassertive focus on race on gender.
Currently, gender expression conversationsare really being heightened because
Of the oppression that's happeningto those communities around.

(19:40):
And if you were to look let's say,in the Far East or Asia, there might
be more gender and sexual orientationbased on the laws of government, , that
might be happening there, right?
Might be different than what it looksin Africa or South Africa in Europe.
And so really important that it's Becauseof the unique meet each other, meet your

(20:01):
coaching where you're at approach withcoaching there isn't that much bigger
opportunity to surface all of theseuniquenesses and seeing people for who
they are versus trying to homogenize them.
What do we gain from reallyinvesting in leadership?
We come from this premise at Farsight thatleadership competencies have to include.

(20:25):
Not just deep understanding, but practiceand behaviors of what it is to create
equitable teams, environments, decisionmaking, have diverse teams, create space
for inclusion and anti oppression, right?
Just that understanding of it.
And so can you connectfrom your perspective?
How does coaching for inclusionimpact higher level strategy,

(20:47):
retention, pipeline to leadership?
What is the positive impactand what is the cost?
If we do not emphasize it.
We have traits andcompetencies that we look at.
We have an inclusive leader modelwhere the trade is about open
to different, and within that.
We're evaluating, assessing thingslike authenticity trust, humility,

(21:09):
flexibility, inquisitiveness to thencompetencies around, how does 1 build
interpersonal trust value differencesintegrate different perspectives.
And so a lot of that approachis really helping to build the
skill set, leaders to really makethat as part of the development.
They're, Okay.
Leadership learning journey toreally assess where they are

(21:32):
now to where they want to go.
And I think as we talked a bit aboutthe data and statistics, there's a lot
behind those organizations that invest in.
Really an inclusive workforce,many of the organizations have
the different groups so that.
People feel included.
I think we're moving more and moretowards an ally ship, rather than have

(21:53):
separate groups, but this idea thatit's going to take more, white males
and sponsorship to be more allies.
And so I know Deloitte's, for example,has gone that way, rather than have
different groups, but to really,include, more senior sponsorship
from the white males and so I thinkthere is this real attention and

(22:14):
how organizations just knowing thatthey've got to do better in this area.
In regards to just beingculturally aware and having a
heightened level of sensitivity.
I often ask these three questions.
In this arena.
If you're looking at a continuum,on one hand, you're clueless,
you're unaware, you don't know.
On the other hand, you'vedone work, you're doing work,

(22:37):
you continue to do work.
So the first question on thatcontinuum is, where are you?
Where are you in that?
And then the second question,where would you like to be?
And then the third question, well, whatare you willing to do to get there?
Because it's about being intentional.

(22:58):
If you're talking aboutmaking a change in awareness.
So if you want to become more culturallyaware and sensitive then you're going
to have to learn to practice, activelistening and empathy and you're going to
need to work on your language and you'regoing to have to address and recognize

(23:18):
bias when it's presented you're goingto want to be concerned about creating a
safe and trusting, space and understandingintersectionality and it goes on and on
.But what are you willing to do to get there?
What are you willing to do?
And When coach training programs buildthat within their core competencies

(23:43):
then I'm guessing you, have adifferent audience also, you have a
different group of individuals andTawana can probably really speak to
that because this is what she's doing.
While Victor was talking and bringingwhat Carolyn said together, one
thing that came to mind was veryinteresting is that leaders, they do
practice inclusion, but exclusively.

(24:06):
So if you really think through wherewe're headed is for them to realize that
you understand the behaviors of inclusiveleadership or involving those you respect
and involving those that you want toknow and lead based on your preference.
We're now getting them to say,seeing how you are so proficient at

(24:28):
doing it this way, but in a very.
Exclusive group, as they would say backin the day of the good old boys network
or the club, whatever group you areexclusive to you practice it just fine.
We're asking you when you open thedoor and let others in, you have the
same behaviors and you continue toexercise that same skill set and to
involve individuals and to make suretheir voices are heard and make sure

(24:51):
they're seen, and that they're valuedand respected so you're just adding
more quantity , you're adding morepeople that look different from you,
but you're practicing the same skills.
So that's the foundation.
That's where we start and say, knowingthat you do this let's talk through what
is it about those who are different fromyou that bring fear or concern and worry

(25:13):
that you don't know what to say or do.
And so we then have to talk aboutthe benefits of inclusion and
leadership is making sure that theyunderstand that opening and adding
more people to this group is creatingan advantage to the organization.
Like Carolyn describes.
There's obviously a businessmodel that benefits.

(25:34):
But beyond that, though, it's thelevel of investment to mental health
where people enjoy coming to work.
They are not stressedand are not burned out.
There's a balance regardingownership and accountability.
Employee development and growth is shiftedwhen you are more inclusive as a leader.
So there are certain thingsthat they already practiced that

(25:55):
we don't want them to change.
But then there's other things thatare aware of that are getting in the
way from them, which is a lot of fearthat we must unpack, and the coach
approach to that, unpack that so thatyou can now see what is it that really
bothers you and that level of selfawareness makes room for opportunity.
Yeah, I think the statsreally speak for themselves.
I know the ICF did a survey and foundthat like over 86 of organizations

(26:22):
, reported a positive return ROI fromtheir coaching initiatives once they're
focused on BCG has also done work onthe higher innovation that comes from
those companies like 20 percent more.
I think Victor talkedabout the innovation piece.
I know Deloitte's has done studiesthat inclusive cultures are 6

(26:42):
times more likely to be innovativeand, likely to anticipate change.
So there's a lot of businesscase around just investing in
this area and growing leaders.
has done work around it.
How inclusive leaders are muchmore effective and get better
performance ratings when they'reengaged with committed team members.

(27:03):
And like you said earlierinclusion is really a behavior.
And teaching, is to want to set how theyare already practicing this, but there's
just being much more mindful to reachout and really learn about different
people that aren't in your close circle.
And that happens, a lot with some of thestorytelling, which we're encouraging

(27:24):
people to tell their stories and askingfurther, better, deeper questions
about each other's lived experiences.
So I want to turn the conversationto tools that coaches use to coach.
We've established that it is towardstransformation it's about looking ahead.
Starting from where one is deepeningunderstanding, self awareness, visioning

(27:44):
for the future of who one wants to be.
In a coach's toolkit are variouskinds of assessments and tests
that get used with clients.
And as these competencies andconcepts and practices of EDIA are
spreading through all aspects of ourlives and work, we are understanding
that a lot of these assessments andtests have a very core focus group

(28:09):
that is not necessarily diverse.
And because of that, there is implicitbiases baked into a lot of these
assessments and what they say aboutsomeone, whether it's hiring assessments,
whether it's personality tests, andas someone who has gone through this
myself as a woman of color doing thiswork with other people of color with
white folk across gender spectrum,there is work that's needed as a coach.

(28:34):
That assessment resultis not enough in itself.
So, can you speak a little bit towhat is the responsibility of a
coach using these assessments untilwe get, better versions of them?
How do we continue touse them effectively?
What else do we as through our expertiseand our own learning and understanding
need to weave in to how we translatethose assessment results to our clients

(28:57):
and help them build themselves up.
First of all, I love the assessments.
I'm a little bit of a junkie when it comesto this and a geek because I do believe
leadership is both an art and a science.
Most people get there with the art, andwe come in with the science . These are
assessment tools, while they're not theonly thing, is at least a starting point.
It's a data point.
And you have singleraters and multi raters.

(29:20):
And the single raters, the Onesthat they fill out themselves.
And so to me, I think the beauty lies inunpacking that with them to really get
the understanding to see if they have thatself awareness themselves about what it
is, whether it's their preference style,where they get their energy, whether it's
about their strengths, there's tools outthere that talk about your strengths,

(29:42):
their dark side, we all have blind spots.
And so I think That is a starting point,the assessments and I think the beauty
lies in having those conversationsand understanding or helping them
to understand what resonates and whatdoesn't and where things like their own
experiences biases that they come across.

(30:02):
The conversation is reallywhere we unravel that.
When it comes to assessments.
I will say there are so manythat you can choose from that.
And I can Carolyn's world because shehas spent a lot of time researching
assessments and she's extremely familiarwith some of the more popular ones.

(30:23):
And she's a master's facilitator in those.
I would submit that, being mindfulthat coach approach to any assessment
is to make sure that you fill thegap where the assessments leave off.
I think that's what Carolyn is saying.
And I tend to prefer assessments onbehavior because transformational
coaching is about behavior changeand in the world of diversity and

(30:44):
inclusion and equity and liberation.
It is about behavior change.
And so I pick tools that areless driven about personality,
but more about behavior.
And I think if you look at your coachingstyle or your style of leadership and
what you would prefer, the science iswhat outcome am I wanting to study?
What is the outcome?

(31:05):
What am I wanting?
Out of the instrument, and that's howyou're able to further align yourself
with tools that meet your coaching style.
And for me, I tend to err on the sideof behavior more so than anything else,
because most people come with Kobeand , and there's so many out there now.

(31:25):
It's ridiculous.
But To weed through them all I just fitthe tool that fits your practice time.
I only use a couple of assessments andthey are behavioral in nature and they're
looking to take you to a place thatyou might not have entirely aware it
was even possible for you to go there.

(31:46):
There's just so manyassessments out there.
You can just be spendingyour wheels on so many areas.
I tend to, focus in on some strengthwork myself and the leadership circle.
I'm certified with Marcus Buckingham's,a standout assessment and certified
with the leadership circle.
Those are the two primary onesthat I tend to lean into for

(32:09):
the robustness of both of them.
And they all measure different things, Ithink that for like MBTI, for example,
that's really about , your naturalpreference, where you get your energy
and how you think and how you process.
One of my favorites, especially whenit comes to leadership is called
the influence style indicator.
Because I think as aleader like that's the job.

(32:29):
It's really all about influence andthey talk about different styles.
If you're a people person, you'reprobably more bridging style.
If you're a storyteller,it's much more inspiring.
And the key is not justunderstanding yourself and your
strength, but then how do you flex?
Your influence style.
So knowing the person across fromyou, and if you're hearing questions
about ROI, and if you're not reallyup on your numbers, it's like how

(32:53):
to then influence using a rationalstyle of influence, for example.
And so just really understandingwhat you want to assess.
So it really just dependson where the participant is
looking to be more effective.
And what tools are in our toolbox.
Because as you say, there are so manyand rightly so it's about the behavior.

(33:15):
So I typically will like to get them to doa self because that's on their own person.
But then also the 360, , I have abias 'cause I was trained in 360
tools by the founder of the 360,the Center for Creative Leadership.
They were the ones that reallyfounded this, but that's the
impact that we're having.
On others, and so to get bothis a very powerful and coaching

(33:38):
experience, because you might think,we judge ourself by our intentions.
Others will judge us by our behaviors.
How are we showing off and to be ableto give the participant, the coachee.
That perspective, because oftentimesthey may not know, many people don't do.
The 360s many organizations,despite having.
Talking the talk about development.

(33:59):
Don't always invest in things like that.
You know, the piece that's strikingme from everything that you all
said is lifting up the person'sauthenticity at the end of the day.
Measurements will say what theydo, the assessing, it'll put you
in this box or that box, et cetera.
And at the end of the day I think
where the coach comes in is to bridgewho the person is their values, their

(34:22):
cultural values, their family values,what's really important to them,
to how they measure and sometimesthe insights can be transformative
in, oh, this is not the industry.
, if this is what's expected of me,and this is who I really am, and
this is where I feel authentic,then, wow, I need to do some serious
reflection around this.

(34:43):
That's, of course, the farthestextreme of transformation.
That's not what always happens.
But this idea of love what you're saying,Carolyn, that it's a starting point and
that's how it needs to be considered.
Not the absolute, not everything,moving forward compared and contrasted
to those measurements, but say, here'sa snapshot of this different way of

(35:05):
seeing ourselves.
And then, what are someopportunities there?
What are some gaps there?
The other thing I'll also say is it isa coach's responsibility to, , who are
we administering these assessments on?
What do we use andwhere do they come from?
I use strengths a lot too.
I love the positive psychology space.
And I've, had to do a lot of backand forth between the strength finder

(35:27):
assessment that's very US based andthen strengths leadership profile,
which is a global perspective.
And for me, as someone who identifiesas a global citizen works with folk
on a global level that against notjust spoke to my own authenticity,
but also just a wider net.
For folk to start seeing themselves in somany different elements of how we show up,

(35:51):
in our role and how we can truly influenceand transform someone else's experiences.
Folk, I'd like to shift gearsinto the coaching industry.
We are all certified coaches andwithin this community and outside
of it including my own experiences.
One of the theme that has come upconstantly is that the coaching

(36:13):
industry is built by and existsof predominantly white cis men.
There is a lack of diversity inhow coaching curriculum is put out.
The training is, very significantand we've already established that at
the beginning of this call that thevalue of getting certified and there

(36:33):
is an opportunity to do more in evencreating more perspective, more core
EDI competencies within curriculum
.What's missing and how do we fill the gap?
And maybe I will direct this questionstarting off with Tawana because you
actually did something about this.
You identified what was missingand you filled in the gap.

(36:54):
That's right.
It's the problem that had to be solved.
Because when I started out, being somethe only woman of color most frequently
and most of the training spaces or theconference spaces, but it was a problem
I needed to solve for several reasons.
1, my clients in the old consultantdays, they would say, Hey, I'm
looking for coaches , with a variety,they represent the diversity of my

(37:16):
organization and finding coachesof color was not an easy thing.
I mean, they were hiddenall over the world.
It was so hard.
And as Victor is, again, creatingcommunity, for different types of
coaches, we both are moving in thedirection of what I call color coaching.
And so , in my space, the idea.
That you would have these corecompetencies, you have these ethics,

(37:40):
you have all these things thatyou're missing the global lens.
That was a huge miss day one.
Here we are now they're changing, ofcourse, language, because now they
have a very diverse global perspective.
And so now they're tweaking a lot oflanguage, but they're tweaking the
language for accountability regardingdiversity and respecting diverse people.
But that's not enough either,because what happens is core in the

(38:01):
curriculums is that You have differenttypes of people coming to coaching
with so many lived experiences.
If you just talk about people who arehistorically excluded groups, people of
color in the United States, let's just.
say African American becausethat's my group that I represent.
If you just look at African Americanwomen who are needing coaching because

(38:24):
they are experiencing some type ofinjustice or systemic injustice and
they get coached by someone who has noperspective of what it's like to be stuck
in a situation where you can't be promotedbecause of the color of your skin.
You can't be promotedbecause of your gender.
They won't promote you.
They haven't promoted.
And no matter how much you work andhow much you try to prove yourself,

(38:45):
you're still hitting that wall.
Unless you know what you're listeningfor and not necessarily having to
relate to it, but to be able to connectthe problem and the person without
that skill set, no matter how manycore competencies you use, it's going
to be a big mess in your coaching.
So Tawana, can I ask a follow up there?
And yeah, let's plug coachdiversity institute as well.

(39:07):
I'm curious when you decided tocreate C. D. I. What were you
determined to do differently?
What gap were you trying to fill
?Anybody, anybody who wanted to be a coach who are already practicing, whether
you are a person of color or not, thatyou would be able to one reduce the
fear of being able to coach across.

(39:28):
Diverse minds and giving you theskill set on what it is that you're
listening for what it is that youneed to do with precaution and to help
with that connection to enhance yourcoaching skill set, because again,
diversity is anyone different from you.
Anyone different from you, andthat could be I am a black woman

(39:49):
coaching another black woman.
I cannot assume that she has experiencedthe system in the same way I have.
That is a huge miss on my partif I make that assumption.
So it's that level of understandingthat anyone in the coaching space
who's absolutely interested inunderstanding that dynamic and how
to enhance their coaching skills.
It's a huge win for our entire community.

(40:11):
Your listeners are not familiar right now.
The fastest growing communityof coaches are in India.
That's the fastest growingcommunity of coaches.
The second fastest is South Africa.
So if you think about , the rate ofdiverse this community or professional
community is growing, you might want toconsider how you're going to integrate

(40:35):
the learning and the education insideof your curriculums, just to meet
the needs of those who are coming.
Victor, if I can.
Turn it over to you with a more specificquestion around what was your motivator
to create coaching for everyone?
Because you are coming at thisthinking about the industry,
but also accessibility.
We wanted to and means, you couldlook out there and you could see I went

(40:59):
through coach training program and I wasthe only African American male in it.
There was one other AfricanAmerican female and that was it.
There were 25 of us, we were inthe program for almost a full year.
And then that was it.
I started coaching and I was coaching inthe tech industry and after a particular
coaching session had ended, we were done.

(41:22):
He was very complimentary.
Thank you.
This was wonderful.
It was white male and I justliterally thought, what would it
be like if black and brown peoplegot this same level of coaching.
Man.
Executive coaching from someone thatlooked like them wife came home.

(41:42):
I said back to her.
She goes, think you're probably goingto start a nonprofit and I said, yeah, I
am going to start a nonprofit and we'regoing to call it coaching for everyone.
And so we just wanted to open up access.
So that we could activate potential andprovide more opportunity for individuals.

(42:04):
Both of you are helping build thepipeline to leadership for Black,
Brown all marginalized communities forwhom the system has not created space.
And that is why, you look at anygross generalization here, but, any
organization's leadership, it ispredominantly white male, there is
more female representation happening,more non binary representation

(42:29):
happening, but nowhere close.
And one of the reasons is,again, network that is needed,
the influence that is needed.
Pure leadership and strategy that isneeded for which a coaching engagement
can be transformational, putting them , ina whole different pile of considerations
to why you said this the other dayof, anyone who has gone through even

(42:52):
just the coach approach to the coach?
One of your programs that theyare being seen differently, right?
Yes.
And that is not enough for us tosay we need more diverse leadership.
What is the investment that'sgoing into building and developing
that diverse leadership.
So just want to highlight thatand it takes so many different
ways of doing it.

(43:12):
And you're doing two of them.
So I just wanted to kind of name andspecify that a little bit, Carolyn,
again, staying in this coaching industryworld and the homogenized origins of it.
You have literally lived andworked all over the world.
So from your global perspective of notjust as a coaching professional, but
also having learned from a coachingindustry engaged in a coaching industry.

(43:37):
is your perspective on thisand what else might be needed?
We're probably more thesame than we are different.
It's the how that sometimes getsmisinterpreted or that's really
where that opportunity lies.
Frankly, , I've spenta lot of time in Asia.
That's where most of my workingand development years were.

(43:58):
I grew up in the U. S.and then I went to Asia.
And this idea of being Asian Americandidn't really hit me until I left it.
I was very different, I was seen verydifferent here, because it's the context
of everywhere else, everyone else, yes,I'm different, but when I went to Asia,
I never noticed, nobody brings it upbecause it's the majority group and so
even that, one of the things I noticed formyself, there was a lot more confidence

(44:22):
in me as a person, and those are thesubtle things, the nuances I think
it's a lot about our cultural culture.
Upbringing and I think you bothhighlighted some unique things that
you're doing in your organizations.
And I'll just put a plug to leap whichis the leadership education for Asia
pacifics, where they also have a really.

(44:43):
Fascinating.
It's called the Asian balancing cultureof model, I believe, where we're looking
at things like humility and how it couldbe leadership enhancing and leadership
limiting because now and more andmore, Asians grew up with humility.
We own humility, right?
That's our thing.
We are humble.
We are seen as team players.
We're not going to boast about things,but yet that's very career limiting when

(45:06):
you are expected to speak up for yourself.
You know, we put a lot of emphasisin the West about things like
where our priorities are moretasks driven, whereas in Asia,
it's much more relationship driven.
We'll spend a lot more timedeveloping that relationship
cultivating that relationship.
And then once you haveit, everything flows.
So it's everything gets done very quickly.

(45:28):
The trust is built, so how trust looks.
So I think , when we talk about diversity,equity, inclusion, it's like therein
lies this opportunity for all of us tojust get more curious about the other
side and to your point about, yes, ourcurriculums were, our curriculum, our
assessment were predominantly developedby the, whites as male, but I have to say

(45:49):
it's changing, with organizations likeyours, , I mean, we are seeing changes.
So I'm hopeful.
I'm really hopeful at this time, despiteall the stuff that may be going on.
I do think there is some momentum in termsof developing more, having more people
paying attention to what's going on inthe space and putting effort behind it.

(46:12):
And the data, right?
The data is helping even further.
Speaking of LEAP, Linda thepresident and CEO who has joined us.
Here as well.
They did an incredible researchproject, I believe it was three
or four years ago around the keyquality of Asian executives, API
executives as a way to enhance.
Doing the bridge building betweenyes, what is expected to move up

(46:36):
through the tiers and what are thoseexecutives really holding on to in
terms of their own authenticity, makingit okay to hold on to our values.
Our cultural competency is theway we show up in the world and
use that as influencers versusthe other way around hiding them.
1 question from a registrant whoasked what coaching certifications

(46:58):
or designations make the mostsense for this type of work.
And I'm going to make anassumption this type of work,
meaning coaching for inclusion.
So I'll do a plug forcoach diversity Institute.
And you all have various programmingsas well, not just certifications.
But if the three of you haveany other recommendations.
I got my coaching certification throughthe ICF, through Center for Creative

(47:19):
Leadership and their sort of a standardglobal body as a core foundation.
But I think specifically I love seeingCBI and just really the specifics around.
There are over 2000 programsnow, schools that are qualified
accredited through the ICF.
There's so many and I'm sure that thereare others who are doing some type

(47:41):
of coach approach to diversity andit's going to take a little research
on your part as you're thinking.
through where you want to go.
But here's what I wouldsubmit for you to consider.
One, you would call them, whicheverones, your top three, call them and
have a conversation with the founder.
If you can get to the founder or someonewho understands intimately the curriculum
and ask them the key questions thatreally matter to you regarding your

(48:06):
desire to be able to acquire the skillsto coach the way you want to coach.
So no one should take on this work ofdiversity and inclusion, coaching and
now that without understanding thereis a level of learning and, interests
that are really needed and necessary.
In my classroom, youbecome the first client.

(48:27):
You go on your own journey of learning anddeepening your self awareness before, and
you must experience what coaching is likein a diverse lens before you can actually
get through and, true understandingand the transformation yourself.
Other schools may have great content andfrom a lecture perspective with Lots of
resources and that may meet your need.
So I would recommendhaving those conversations.

(48:49):
I get those phone calls all thetime, wanting people to know
what's the difference betweenyour school and the other schools.
And I will, I recommend other schools.
The school I graduated from was IPEC.
loved IPEC.
I have no problems with myeducation and learning there.
It's just that I didn't want it more.
And didn't exist.
So I created it myself.
So again, it's yourjourney, your investigation.

(49:10):
And I would recommendinterviewing the schools.
Are there specific things to look forwhen researching certification option?
First thing I would say is theamount of time that it will take
for you to complete the program.
Some people who are time sensitive.
Some people want to getcertified right away.
Some programs are 6 months.
Some programs are a year.
The 2nd thing and researching.

(49:31):
And then the last thing thatyou need to understand is what
is their learning framework.
Every school should have some typeof framework that you can clearly
understand the type of coaching.
So it will be leadership coaching,empowerment coaching, health and wellness.
There's so many particular areas of focus.
So you would first research the area thatwe call it a niche inside of the coaching

(49:55):
space, but what area of focus that youare most interested or feel called.
Two.
As far as who you wanna workwith, some people are very
specific about career development.
So you would first make sure thatcurriculum is aligned with where
you want to be as far as thetype of coaching you want to do.
Then I would look at their learningframework and how the journey of
learning will evolve you personallyand not just lecture and give you.

(50:20):
Skills that you have to just practice andyou become a little robot, do this, that,
this, that you know that doesn't work.
You really have to feel the coachingskill and has to be a part of you.
So I would also look for that.
Rigor and time put in actually coaching.
Often I do hear individuals finish aparticular program and they'll simply say.

(50:44):
I don't feel prepared yet.
I've checked the boxes.
I did all what I was supposed to do.
It's not unusual for someone to finisha coaching program and then knock on
our door and say, Well, I want more.
I need more to be prepared.

(51:05):
So look at that level of rigor saysinterview people talk to people,
especially if you can find like mindedpeople that you feel as though I respect.
I understand where they're coming from.
This is similar to me.
Oh, you chose X. You went.
Okay.

(51:25):
, I went initially from beginning to end,I'm with the CTI route and there is so
much more we've had people go through theCTI route and still want more process.
It's not just an event.
I would say it also depends on whatyou're looking to get at the end.
What what is that?

(51:47):
What are you looking to do with it?
And who's valuing it?
If your focus is really to do muchmore diversity inclusion type coaching,
then which are the ones for that?
I think you both alluded to it earlier.
So I think there's justso much options out there.
Where do you see yourself and also who.
Is the client or customer base afterthat, making sure you're getting enough

(52:10):
exposure and experience towards coachingfolks and within that particular space.
The term rigor feels familiar forme because when I was looking I got
cautioned of, programs out therethat will certify you very quickly.
And that causes more harm later likeactual harm when you're working with
people because they will, bring stuff thatjust will not know how to handle because

(52:32):
you don't have the tools or have practicedenough to be okay to work with that.
And that you have not dealt with yourown stuff, so that it doesn't become
more prominent than what your clientis bringing to you, things like that.
So that is something that I had beencautioned about just credibility of
the institution, right to want toyour point of learning frameworks.

(52:54):
There are programs that sit in isolationand then there are organizations
like ICF that create global standardsthat can be very helpful so , that
institutions are following certain thingsto be accredited through them as well.
And then, if is a very specific corecompetency, then just asking those.
As people of color on this call, we didn'tget that training of what those EDI core

(53:18):
competencies are, but we've lived it.
And so we know how to weave it in.
And that's what makes each process unique.
We are currently in the world ofembracing or resisting or having no
opinion about AI in our workplaces.
I find myself not embracing it that much.
I'm very cautionary about it.

(53:40):
However it's inevitable thatthe AI processes are merging
in with our current processes.
And so I'd love to open it upagain to your perspectives around
what does this look like for thecoaching world for us as coaches.
To want to use that something reallybeautiful earlier this week of, how
do we become bridges to work with it?

(54:03):
To compliment what the transformationand to make it even more effective.
And if anything, that we should be waryabout, of how we use it, if we use it.
We've been here before at one time.
, we didn't know, andwe're like, well, what.
So wait, it's called what?
Well, it's just Google.
And if you just type stuff in,it'll give you all kinds of info.

(54:27):
Oh, no.
And so then we warmed up around that.
And we looked in you justcan't trust everything.
In Google, and evenbefore Google, what was it?
Oh it's this thing called the Internet.
So we've been here before and it's a tool.
Can it be abused?
Yes.
Can it have issues?

(54:47):
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
But I'm just looking at it as a tool.
And I've had conversation with justthe issues and concern with, K 12
education or K 16 education and howit's used and how it can be abused
and how it, could enable growth

(55:08):
with, that population because ofdependency . Yes, all of those
issues are there, but there'ssomething called discretion.
That just says, it's a tool and you useit based on what your particular need
may be, but we have involved with itfrom the moment that we asked Alexa to

(55:31):
play some Michael Jackson for us, that'sAI, we're dealing with AI with Surrey,
we're dealing with AI, it's been around,now it's just taken on another form.
I'm not all that alarmed, per se
So I'll build a bridge fromwhat Victor is saying to some
research that I'm familiar with.

(55:52):
The number one pivot that we made incoaching and many of you who've been in
this space a long time like me was movingfrom in person to telephone coaching.
Move from telephone coaching tovideo conferencing on through Skype.
Remember those days?
And now, of course, we havethe super flexible Zoom, right?
And Teams.

(56:13):
So it's easier now.
So that was the first pivot that we had tomake through technology to coach because
we all believed that there would be aloss in learning, a loss in that personal
touch, and the impact to our clients.
And that was the biggest transformation.
And it happened really fast.
We went from Java scripting to HTMLso fast, , but I will say that now

(56:34):
where we are there are a number ofdifferent companies that are now
building functioning platforms wherepeople have the choice to integrate
with a person, a human, or througha bot that is now using So yeah.
The coaching skill set to engage withpeople and people now have a preference.
They can either work with a botor they will work with a human.

(56:57):
So that's the first thing.
Coaching on demand, very similar tochat GPT, you put a prompt in and it
then comes out with an answer, whatI'm dovetailing with Victor said to
what I had said earlier, and that is.
When you have a tool that is availableto us, we must consider how we're

(57:19):
going to partner with that tool.
The partnership with technologyis the best place to be in
the future for Coaching.
How do you take the part that thetechnology that they're building
where you can be substituted?
And I say that there is astarting point and then there
is a middle and there's an end.

(57:40):
You can integrate the automatedfeatures of coaching and you
can embed that in your practice.
So there's pre work.
That you can use AI to use that willgive an output to you very similar to
assessments, but it's all done fasterand it's all done in a different way
that would then allow you to engagewith your clients differently and
then you move them to post work.

(58:01):
So there's all kinds of ways tointegrate and partner with technology
that we don't have to be afraid ofit but we can Extremely efficient.
And but there will be some clients whowill prefer not to deal with people,
especially those who just don't likehuman engagement in the same way.
That's an option for them.
And that's not to be judged.
This is their preference and it's okay.
But if I were looking forward, I wouldsay, create that partnership and integrate

(58:26):
it into your practice sooner than later.
And I would agree.
I know we're doing a lot of work here atPoint Ferry about the role of AI, and I
think you guys both have touched on it.
It's an enabler to help uswith doing our coaching.
We are using it in different forms.
I know that the matching part, there's apiece of that in terms of how we use it.

(58:46):
Fill out and match someof those preferences.
I know that is a support, imagine havingadditional data on people or helping
people with I, but I think it's notgoing to take the place of a human,
I think at the end of the day, peoplestill prefer the human touch and just the
emotional pieces of what we can doin a real time type conversation.

(59:11):
When we first started thinking aboutthis role, I had often envisioned.
Wouldn't it be great if we could feedall of the data from the assessments.
And have this bot, be able to be thecoach, but I think you would lose
so much of what the nuance of whata human does with that real time.

(59:33):
And then worry about all of the biasesit picks up especially in the space.
And so it's really an interestingtime to just see how far and
where people incorporate.
The use of it in coaching,
Caroline . I'm so glad you mentionedembedded biases because that's what's
coming up right now, especiallywhen, AI has been generated because

(59:54):
information has been fed into it.
And then constant interrogation of whoare the folk who fed in information?
What do they look like?
What are their lived experiences?
What parts of the world, an articlethat came out recently that any visual
content that AI is generating basedon what is being put in is coming out
either white or very light skimmed,they represent any other communities.

(01:00:17):
So that is a huge.
Current red flag and hopefully gets,identified explored and resolved.
But again, embedded biases, theconstant interrogation of where
is this information coming from?
Do we need to clarify it?
Reconfirm it?
Etcetera.
I think on the horizon,there will be BIPOC GPT.

(01:00:39):
Aha.
Okay.
. And so there will be thatdifferent perspective.
There will be that different nuance.
It could be black GPT.
It could be Latinx.
It could be Asian GPT.
It could be any or oneof those individually.
But my thought is, if I'm thinking of itnow, someone is already doing it, okay.

(01:01:04):
As a kid, I couldn't understandwhy they had the lines in the
back of the car to defrost.
The snow.
But we had to scrape the front.
So I'd always say why can't we take thoselines and make them invisible and prove
them in the front so that you'll defrost?
And my dad would always saysomeone's working on that right now.

(01:01:27):
Someone to lift the hood up tocheck the oil, but you didn't
have to lift the hood up.
Look at gas.
You didn't have to do that.
Well, eventually there was anoil thing, so it's coming.
There will be BIPOC or blackGPT within six months to a year.

(01:01:48):
Well, I wouldn't be surprised if youhang up on this call, go to Google.
And the first thing that comes up is joinblack GPT because it's already heard this.
Yeah.
You know, there are ears everywhere.
Thanks for geeking out with meand talking all things coaching.
Thank you for what you do inthe world and making the shifts
and changes that is so needed.
Thank you all so much.

(01:02:10):
We continue the exploration of workplaceculture and coaching with our next
episode Values Based Coaching fromthe Work Shouldn't Suck podcast.
Thank you for listening to Farsight Chats.
I hope that this episode is the startto future conversations you have with
your colleagues, teams, and communities.
Subscribe now to Farsight Chatswherever you get your podcasts.

(01:02:32):
And don't forget to follow us onInstagram and Facebook at GoFarsight,
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com, to know more aboutwho we are and what we do.
Thank you for answering the call, ToDo More, Do Better and Do Different.