EP25: The Future Of Women In Leadership

In this episode of FARSIGHT Chats, host Farah Bala engages with leaders Renee Mahaffey Harris, Jae Requiro, and Felicia Williams to discuss the future of women in leadership. The conversation addresses key topics such as the challenges women face in leadership roles, the importance of mentorship and sponsorship, women's unique 'superpowers,' and the impact of recent societal changes on women's careers. The guests share personal experiences, highlight the necessity of understanding local policies, and discuss organizational strategies for fostering more inclusive workplaces. Additionally, the dialogue covers overcoming imposter syndrome, the importance of empathy from leaders, and the need for allies to actively support women in achieving higher positions. The episode also explores the impact of recent social and policy changes on women's leadership opportunities, and offers practical advice for both women and their allies on fostering inclusive workplace cultures. Additionally, it encourages collective advocacy and continuous efforts towards creating a culture that supports equity, diversity, and inclusion.

| KEY TOPICS DISCUSSED |

WOMEN’S LEADERSHIP TODAY

• Women bring unique superpowers to leadership: adaptability, resilience, collaboration, empathy, and lived experience.
• Despite progress, systemic barriers remain, including microaggressions, pay inequity, limited childcare support, and workplace policies that assume traditional gender roles.

SPONSORSHIP VS. MENTORSHIP

• Sponsorship is essential for advancement—women need leaders who will advocate for them in rooms they’re not in.
• Relationships, visibility, and trust are key to getting promoted, not just doing good work.

INTERSECTIONALITY & IDENTITY

• Women of color face distinct challenges, from implicit bias to cultural assumptions. They often navigate assimilation and authenticity in predominantly white, male spaces.

IMPACT OF THE PANDEMIC & SOCIAL RECKONING

• COVID-19 and the murder of George Floyd catalyzed urgent conversations and some meaningful structural shifts—but momentum is fading.
• There is growing concern that DEI efforts are being deprioritized or becoming performative.

WORK CULTURE & FLEXIBILITY

• Remote work has provided mental health relief and reduced microaggressions, especially for Black women.
• However, remote settings can limit relationship-building and access to sponsorship, creating barriers to career advancement.

ADVOCACY & COLLECTIVE ACTION

• Women must support each other across industries through informal networks, sharing experiences, and lifting others up.
• Allies must actively listen, ask what support is needed, and avoid making assumptions.
• Organizational advocacy should be proactive: modernize definitions of success, invest in inclusive culture, and integrate DEI across all departments—not just HR.

IMPOSTER SYNDROME & SELF-ADVOCACY

• Women often feel they need to meet 100% of qualifications before applying for roles, unlike men.
• Recognizing and naming imposter syndrome, claiming confidence, and normalizing imperfection are key to personal growth.

| SHOW NOTES |

00:00 Welcome to FARSIGHT Chats

02:17 Introducing Today's Guests

05:30 Personal Journeys and Inspirations

08:58 Women’s Superpowers in Leadership

13:35 Impact of Recent Events on Leadership

19:11 Challenges and Advice for Women Leaders

27:26 Workplace Flexibility and Its Implications

29:24 Navigating Career Advancement in a Virtual Space

29:59 Supporting Working Mothers in the Workplace

31:27 Understanding...

Episode Transcript

(00:02):
Welcome to Farsight Chats, your Guideto Navigating Complex and important
Conversations on Society and Culture.
I'm your host, Farah Bala,founder and CEO of Farsight.
We specialize in leadership andorganizational development, focusing
on equity, diversity, and inclusionas core leadership competencies.

(00:24):
Join us in these conversationsthat aim to foster, understanding,
growth and positive change.
Today I am joined by inspiringand fierce leaders, Renee Mahaffey
Harris, Jay Ro, and Felicia Williams.
As we discuss the futureof Women in leadership.
We originally recordedthis in the fall of 2022.

(00:47):
This is a highly personalconversation for me.
I coach women leaders at variouslevels in their career all the way
to the C-Suite, and I know fullwell the challenges there are to
navigate being a woman leader myself.
When I get asked to speak to womenaudiences, I often find myself
saying, when we bring a group ofwomen together, we change the world.

(01:10):
. Despite more women being in leadershiproles, I wanted to talk about the
future, especially the currentroadblocks that we face, how we
navigate the superpowers we possess andreframe those ever annoying imposters.
We spotlight the role of sponsorship,the need for a diverse spectrum of
women leaders in today's time, Andmost importantly, how can we lift

(01:34):
each other up in our careers?
So as you listen in today,we invite you to consider
who are some of your mostinspiring women leaders and what
qualities make them exceptional?
How can we tackle not just thebig battles, but also the smaller
ones, such as the microaggressionsthat women of color face in the
workplace, especially black women?

(01:57):
Ding ding.
This is where our allies,especially our male allies come in.
So I hope you're listening.
Join us on this journey oflearning and unlearning.
In today's episode of Farsight Chats,
I'm very, very excited aboutthis conversation on the
future of women in leadership.

(02:17):
Thank you so much for joining ustoday and I'm going to hand it over
to you to please introduce yourselves.
Hi, my name is Renee Mahifi Harris.
I am the president and CEO of anorganization in Cincinnati, Ohio, serving
the greater Cincinnati area calledthe Center for Closing the Health Gap.
I got to this place through my career,both in politics and also through Leading

(02:39):
a nonprofit organization focused onredevelopment and my years in banking.
I am now doing what I'm passionateabout which is serving the needs of
disparate populations marginalizedpopulations as it relates to our health.
So I'm very happy to be here today.
Greetings, everyone.
This is Jay Recuro.
My pronouns are she, her, hers.
I'm coming to you fromdowntown Los Angeles, currently

(03:01):
in my office on a Friday.
I'm the youngest child of Filipinoimmigrants, and my day job is the
vice president of diversity, equity,inclusion for a little company called AEG.
We are one of the world's largestlive entertainment companies.
So you may have heard of some of ourfestivals like Coachella and Stagecoach.
And we do entertainment centersand districts all around the world.

(03:22):
And I also serve on a non profitthat is focused on health equity for
Asian Pacific Islanders and Native.
Hawaiians.
So I'm excited to be apart of this conversation.
And before I turn it over toFelicia, I just want to say,
Renee, you have such a great voice.
I feel like you should belike on radio or something.
Like every time I hear your voice, I'mlike, Oh, I could just listen to her.
You could read the phone book to me.
It just sounds amazing.

(03:43):
So with that, yeah.
Felicia.
Thanks, Jay.
And I totally agree about Renee's voice.
It's very impressive.
Good afternoon, everyone.
My name is Felicia Williams.
I am originally from Chicago, Illinois.
I currently live in WestNew York, New Jersey.
have been with Macy's for about 18 yearsand I thank you all for the back to

(04:05):
school and holiday shopping that you'replanning to do at Macy's and Macy's.
com.
I have been in accounting, auditing,tax, investor relations, finance
professional for most of my career.
My last role with Macy'swas as interim CFO.
I paused my career as Renee said, toreally do work that I am passionate about.

(04:29):
to join a fellowship calledCeo Action for Racial Equity.
I like to tell people that I get towake up every day and think about how
to improve the lives and circumstancesof the 47 million black americans.
It is deeply challenging and deeplyrewarding work because we primarily
work from an advocacy, which meanslegislative policy standpoint.

(04:52):
And also we develop corporateengagement solutions.
To meet corporations where they are.
am really excited about this work.
I have been in thefellowship for two years.
I have one more year to go, and I'm reallylooking forward to the conversation today.
This gives me hope.
Just us here gives me a lot ofhope because there is so much data.
There is so much information out thereabout how much women in the workforce

(05:16):
the opportunities, the numbers haveregressed back to eight to 10 years
and the blood, sweat and tears that hadeven gone to bring us to where we were
before pandemic hit before, all of theseevents of these last few years have hit.
So in spirit of inspiration, my firstquestion for you is, as you look back
on your own journey, what are thoseactions, momentous situations and or

(05:42):
people who you attribute your careerpath to in terms of those significant
moments, those significant peoplethat, intentionally unintentionally
have led you to where you are today.
have been very fortunate to have hada wide variety of I'll say mentors,
but really sponsors because we knowmentors and sponsors are different.

(06:05):
And as you transition through your career,particularly as you go up the ladder
and whatever organization or environmentthat you're in, you really need to
build fewer mentors and more sponsor.
You have all the mentors you want, butyou really need to have sponsors and
sponsors are people who are willingto put their, I call it institutional
goodwill credibility behind someoneso that they can vouch for you.

(06:27):
I heard this expression, Ihave to know you to grow you.
And so you want a mentor to helpGet to know you and grow you.
And then you want to sponsor to beable to say, yes I know Felicia,
she's grown into this great personand I recommend her and I'm going
to help her get to that next level.
And so I've been really blessed to havehad a nice mix of mentors and sponsors

(06:49):
over my career who have been willingto get to know me and help to grow me.
I think I looked at thisquestion in a different way.
I thought about it as literallygrowing up here in the States.
And I think about my father who wasable to earn both his bachelor's and his
MBA and worked for a large corporation.
McCormick Schilling was on his wayto move up to the executive ranks,

(07:12):
but was going to have to movefrom California to the East coast.
And that would mean away fromall of our family, both sides of
the family were in California.
And he chose to stay in Californiaand open his own business.
So that he could keep the family together.
And I think that wasvery significant to me.
And when he opened his business,he was very deliberate about
paying people well and providingthe right kind of health benefits.

(07:35):
So he could keep the right talent.
And I think when we think about today,how important that is to retain employees.
He was able to stay inbusiness for over 25 years.
That's almost unheard of through the 80s.
And so as a leader, I think aboutthat when I manage people, manage
teams, think about policies.
How are we being the mostinclusive to the broadest audience?
To really support folks sothey can be their full selves

(07:57):
when they come into work.
And I think that was very significant.
I didn't realize it at five years old,but looking back on my career now,
I see that as being very significant
.Some of my biggest failures And that's how I term it, but we're the
biggest opportunities for me to grow.
I think of one particular instancethat was going through a difficult
divorce and other crazy thingshappening all at one time in my life.

(08:19):
And because of my integrity and becauseof the relationships, I had people who
stood by me and stood up for me and withme and so I just remember that and, think
about, if in fact that had not happenedthe way it did, where would I be today?
have been thinking a lot, in thisconversation around equity inclusion,

(08:39):
we need more women in leadership.
We need more women in leadership.
We're not just saying that toget women in leadership positions
because there aren't enough.
There is also value, uniqueness,and what I call superpowers.
That women bring to any position thatthey get an opportunity to sit in.
And so my question for you is, whatdo you think are women's superpowers

(09:03):
that make them effective inleadership that make them the space
of inspiration that I'm feeling.
We just have different livedexperiences than a man, right?
Just how we are taught toact and dress and behave.
And, the expectationsthat are placed on women.
If you look over time and historicallythere's just the idea of women being

(09:24):
at home in the fifties of the apronand the pearls and all that and then
transitioning, to women's rightsand fighting for women's rights
and getting right to vote and thengetting into the workforce and then
having it all and then on and on.
If you think about the journey ofwomen, to get into corporate America.
It has been such a differentjourney than the men.
My grandmother worked in foodservices in the store view.

(09:47):
Chicago folks, Carson Fury, ScottFood Services was basically in the
cafeteria because that is where womenwere allowed to work in the service,
a profession, teacher, nurses.
House cleaners, et cetera,and, she worked so hard.
She was so smart, beautiful,brilliant, and this was all that
society really allowed her to become.

(10:08):
Fast forward to her granddaughter, whowas CFO of a department store that.
could have arguably beenCarson Perry Scott in Macy's.
And it's just we feel likewe've come so far in two years.
But part of my brain says, wow,my grandmother had dreams that
got deferred because of thetime period that she was in.

(10:29):
If I'm in a conversation Aboutwork or making a decision.
I'm bringing so many different aspectsof my story into the conversation, and it
adds a different perspective a differentvoice, a different energy, that will
hopefully lead to a better decision.
And I think all women have the capacityto bring that type of perception,

(10:52):
that type of thinking into theconversations, which is why it's so
needed because , we're not all the same.
I would say that we have thisresiliency that is a part of who we are.
That's the fiber.
I think of women, whatever area ofyour life, , we just, Barrel through
and we're going to get it done.
That's part of that expectationthat whether you have children,

(11:13):
whether you have family, what haveyou, we're just gonna get it done.
Give us a task.
We're going to get it done.
And I think we have through the years theworkforce and the way the workforce has
evolved sometimes maneuver through thingsthat really weren't designed for us.
And I think because of that,we've learned to adapt in a way
that, becomes our 2nd nature.

(11:34):
And I think that those qualities showthemselves differently for women than men.
And because of that adaptability andthe fortitude to just, get it done.
I have actually two thoughts.
The first thought is women tendto be much more collaborative.
Like we're much more open to workingtogether and teamwork is second nature
in terms of supporting the broader grouprather than being very individually

(11:58):
driven, which I see as a male traitswhich is important when you are,
one of the only in the room, right?
You may look across the tableand there's no other women.
There's no other people of color.
So I think women generally want to supporteach other because we know how hard
it is to be at the table by ourselves.
I think that's one thing that you couldgo to anthropology and look at all
this research about human beings, etcetera, even when you look at gender,

(12:19):
we could probably be more flexiblearound that concept in general, and
then be more broad in our perspectivesas we're thinking about whatever
business decision we're trying to make.
And so I think that's the only thingI would add is I'm struggling with
the binary a lot these days, justbecause we have to think about
diversity, equity inclusion in allaspects, whether it's business or health
equity policy, all of it in a much morenuanced way than we have in the past.

(12:42):
I want to build on the superpowersthat you're naming on adaptability,
flexibility and something that Feliciabrought in around lived experience.
And Jay, I know you had brought this upin our conversation earlier this week
as well around our identities that wehold, our lived experience and what that
contributes into an organization andtaking all of that in your roles right

(13:04):
as leaders within your organization.
How have you been impacted?
Over the last three years, let's saythrough this pandemic through the
racial reckoning through, all of it.
And how have you been activatedwithin your organization?
What have you been moved to do?
If you can share a little bit of,where you're doing what I call the drum
beating, whether it's systemic changes,whether it's courageous conversations,

(13:29):
whether it's more sponsorship,just curious as to what has Mhm
that's been like for you.
So I've been with AEG forthree years and one week.
So prior to my joining the organization,there was no executive in charge
of diversity equity inclusion.
So just imagine coming into anorganization, woman of color, I look
a little younger than I really am.
And then we got hit withthe pandemic, right?

(13:51):
So live events shut down, we werehit with the anti Asian hate, right?
We're here with the succession of blackand brown people being murdered, and
then George Floyd and the Black LivesMatter just became this huge event,
particularly here in the United States.
The universe put me in this positionfor a reason, because I'm going to be
able to provide access to women, peopleof color, people who are LGBTQ, anyone

(14:14):
who is in that, one down position interms of who's in power and who's making
decisions, and provide access and voice.
And so I think that's part of whatour role is Whether it's women
or people of color in positionsof power is providing access.
And so I think about the changes thathave happened we now have a whole
new talent acquisition department androle and a college relations department

(14:38):
and leadership development leader.
So we've created these departments andsystems to provide access whether it's
recruitment or development and retention.
And, that's something that I feel likediversity, equity and inclusion have been
able to impact in the last three years.
Because we were able to say, Hey, here'swhat's wrong, but here's some solutions.
And I don't know that we would have hadthat same kind of impact in such a short

(15:00):
amount of time had it not been for beingshut down and not having that and really
having executives who don't necessarilylive in the neighborhoods that were
watching protest or that were being hitby any of the challenges with a lot of our
employees and fans were being impacted by.
So I think that's.
What my position allowed me is powerand access to really make a difference.

(15:23):
couldn't agree more, Jay.
And I will say it wasn't so much COVID.
But the murder of George Floyd becausewith the murder of George Floyd, the
fellowship that I'm in was createdand we're advocating for things like
ending the criminalization of poverty.
closing the digital divide,permanent access to telehealth,
early childhood education, expandingthis diversity, things designed to

(15:46):
close the gaps that exist betweenblack americans and white americans.
And because we're trying todo this through a legislative
standpoint, there was momentumafter the murder of George Floyd.
And then, things start togo back to what I would say.
Normal priority shift.
People go back to their normal lives, andwe're keenly focused on trying to keep

(16:08):
the momentum really identify companieswho were sincere and not performative
in their response to that horrific event.
And there are companies out there whosaid, Yeah, we want to double down.
We're in this.
We're in this for the And you can seeby how they're making their investment
decisions, how they're making their hiringdecisions, whether they are open to the

(16:28):
idea of things like fair chance hiring.
Until you have an opportunity tohire the previously incarcerated.
And so I am personallypleased to see that.
Yeah, companies are leaning into this.
There are some that are fallingby the wayside and that's okay.
But there are some that arereally leaning into this.
And I personally have said, okay,I'm going to pause this C suite
career directory that I was.

(16:49):
on and I'm going to roll up my sleevesand really do this work every single
day because this is important forme and it's important for my future,
grandchildren one day in the nextgeneration to really make progress.
I guess I have the luxury or I'mblessed to be in a role where.
I have been in this space for 15 yearsof my career addressing these issues of

(17:12):
health disparities and health inequitiesacross marginalized populations across
this region, but also across the state andin some national organizations as well.
And so when I think of our responseto these last three years, there
was a different ear and willingnessto say, okay, this affects.
All of us, but we are seeing thedata that's telling us that it's

(17:34):
disproportionately impactinga population of people for
factors that we've always know.
And so there is a greater urgencya greater immediacy to say
Although we've known this data fora long time, COVID 19 just shone
a huge light on the disparitiesand those factors that contribute.
And so I think it's given us anopportunity to sit in rooms differently.

(17:57):
During COVID because we had theurgency of figuring out the solution.
So it forced us to focus on the issueand get into rooms and put our egos
aside, put our position and focus onwhat we can actually do then and there.
I'm hopeful.
As I listened to both Felicia and Jayand, what's evolving from a corporate
perspective, because I work at anonprofit space that we can keep.

(18:21):
And I'm just so thankful for Comingtogether and bringing those like
minded people to keep pushing thisbig stone or big rock that we have to
keep pushing uphill to get to some ofthese bigger goals, and so I'm hopeful.
I think that's what I feltover the last three years.
I do feel a little concern over thefact that I guess that authenticity
of actually seeing the change andthat it's going to take time because

(18:44):
we didn't get here In three years, wegot here over decades and centuries.
I do feel like over this time,there's a greater compassion, grace
and understanding and willingnessto say wow, I didn't know, but
what can I now do differently?
One of my observations, I've beenin lots of conversations with
people of color, women of color.

(19:04):
Any form of leadership, the twothings that I've heard is Been
taken more seriously and peopleare listening to me differently.
What would you like to say to women whoare looking to move up in their careers?
Whether they are leaders at a middlemanagement level currently, or moving
to middle management who have ambitionsthat might be disillusioned with

(19:26):
the current state, with the currentpolicies of Roe v. Wade, depending
on where one lives in the country.
What do you say to women in terms of.
What is it going to take to continue?
That is a lot in there.
A lot.
I'm sure.
I'm sure.
Whatever.
Resonate.
I know.
50 different directions here.

(19:47):
Um,
It is so incumbent upon women tounderstand and not underestimate that
there are forces today who reallydon't want women in the workforce.
I talked about voting the equal rightsamendment and all these things that women
had to fight for in order to, kick downthe door only to hit a glass ceiling.

(20:07):
And we can talk about what happenswhen you hit the glass ceiling.
And how do you break through withoutI'm getting a migraine because I'm
banging my head on this glass ceiling.
But that progress that has been madeis so precious for this moment in time.
Because when you look at decisions likeRoe v. Wade, or you look at Roe v. Wade.
Of the lack of funding for early childhoodeducation, the lack of paid leave when

(20:29):
you have a child and all the structuresthat are in place to support women staying
in the workforce are slowly breaking down.
It is simply because there is apopulation of folks that do not want
women in the workforce and has reallynever wanted women in the workforce
who do believe that our place isin the home, raising Children.

(20:50):
And so we are having theseconversations about policy for early
childhood education, policy forpaid leave policy for equal pay.
You're hitting this brick wall andthese things seem so fundamentally
look in and in other countriesthat are, modern countries.
And so why does the United Statescontinue to have this challenge?
I think we need to talk about that.

(21:12):
We need to put that on the table.
We need to have true and open andtransparent conversation about
why that resistance is there.
So that's my first thing.
And all of that plays into,the Roe v. Wade conversation.
It's this idea that yes, you're inthe workforce and that's not everyone.
Clearly companies do recognize thatthere is benefit to having , diverse

(21:33):
voices, gender voices and racialvoices and ethnic voices at the table.
But there is a lot ofresistance now for women.
us to think about how we'regoing to help women progressing.
I will say on a positive note, you dohave entities like the SEC and others
who are requiring public companiesto disclose the makeup of their board
composition, , and one might say, Great
they have to show their numbers, butshowing those numbers forces them to

(21:56):
look at their numbers and say, Hey, isthis the composition that we really want?
Does that reflect our consumer?
Does it reflect the peoplewho are buying our product?
Does it Reflect the peoplewho are using our services.
So don't underestimate the powerof public disclosure of data in
order to challenge companies withrespect to their board composition

(22:17):
and having meaningful conversations.
So that's the positive side.
But in this day and age, AndI'm not chicken little.
The sky is falling, but thereis definitely complications and
challenges in different ideologywhen it comes to just basic policy.
So I would say all women, you are allgoing to be challenged this election
season to forget the party labelto really think about what are those

(22:41):
policies that are most meaningful towomen and to use your accordingly.
And I am not advocating for any party.
I'm advocating for policy thatis supportive of women long term.
As a child of immigrants, localpolitics was not something we really
spent a lot of time talking about.
And so when you think about decisionsthat are made at the school board

(23:02):
level, or the city council level weas women need to also think about
that right for our local community,what is happening to support folks.
For those of us who have kids, Iwas a single mom my entire career.
So those kinds of issues were reallyimportant to me, but I had to learn
that's part of where it starts isliterally every local community.
So whether you're able to getinto politics or you're just going

(23:22):
to use your voice, please do.
I do think that impacts whathappens at the corporate level.
And I'll just add, from a workforcestandpoint, with an industry like the
live events industry, we've lost a tonof women because it's hard, live in
Los Angeles, you have to live prettyfar from your workplace if you have to
come to an office and commuting is moreexpensive, it's much more pressure.

(23:42):
During the pandemic, a ton ofchild care resources were decimated
because of lack of income.
And so I think for women, youcan choose to stay home, or if
you choose to work somewhere,you've got to really think about.
All of that in your package.
It's not just about salary.
It's really about quality of life now.
And employees are reallythinking about that.

(24:04):
Is it worth it for me to be awayfrom my family for 60 hours a week?
Is it worth it for me to sit on atrain for an hour to get to an office?
And a lot of folks aresaying no, it's not worth it.
So I think companies need to bereally considerate around our internal
policies and how we're supporting folks.
And women should be very selectivebecause you can be there's a lot
of jobs that are open now and inmany of our counties and cities.

(24:27):
And really think aboutthe quality of life.
Greater education and understandingabout how local policies have the
biggest influence and impact on.
And I think that's a big factor in yourday to day lives wherever you live.
And I think when I think of women'sissues, when as you were talking, I
kept thinking of the cliff effect.
There are a population of women who haveto worry about if they make more money.

(24:49):
Is that going to mean that I can nolonger have the voucher for daycare?
Because I'm making a dollar more.
And so to live in a country where thatsystem and that structure is making
it difficult for someone to progressand to achieve more because they
want to do more and do better, morefor their families and themselves.

(25:09):
Like those are some really systemicand structural factors that affect
women specifically in the workplace,at least where I am in greater
Cincinnati and the counties thatsurround the percent of women that are
in single female head of household.
And Whether you are low, middle, upperincome, childcare and making those
decisions and choices are very difficult.

(25:31):
Women primarily are feeling that decision.
And so I think the policies and how dowe make sure that these needs need to
be addressed in such a way that theydon't negatively impact the ability for
mobility to be something we can aspire to.
When you're talking about men and womenin the workforce and flexibility, I
was at a conference and the guys werelike, yeah, I really, support, my wife,

(25:55):
but we're both facing this need tohave flexibility in the work schedule.
And one of the guys said, so I'm onmorning duty, I dropped my kids off
at school and my wife picks them up.
And that sounds really balanced.
And then the moderator asked the question,who goes home when there's a delivery?
So when you have to get somethingdelivery and that window is one
to five and it's my wife does.

(26:15):
Who does the school call when yourchild has an emergency and you
have to leave to go pick them up?
Oh they call my wife, I'm leaving,I'm leaving and she's leaving and
we have this balance and, but whenit comes to those unexpected and
who has to leave and who has tosacrifice, of course it's the woman.
And that's when you really get intothe meat of conversations about shared

(26:37):
workload and shared flexibility,even in a situation where the
man thinks he's sharing equallyin that work schedule workload.
So I just wanted to share that examplebecause sometimes it helps people,
understand the tactics of what womenface and what the expectation is
that, yeah, of course you'll leave.
Of course you'll sit at home forfour hours and wait for delivery.

(26:59):
It would never be the man who does that.
This example transfers overinto the workplace in terms
of what are those female centricroles that are assumed, right?
You can literally transfer overnote taking, literally transfer
over, who is going to be clientfacing, who is not, like all of
that, irrespective of the stature.
So I want to stay in the space ofwhat Jay said, get selective, right?

(27:24):
So we have two questions, one is.
Do you think that the growing flexibilityand work style coming out of the COVID
19 pandemic will help or hinder women'sopportunities for leadership positions?
I think that's making an assumptionthat all workplaces are continuing to be
flexible, which is not necessarily true.

(27:44):
There's research that shows thereare advantages and disadvantages
to being remote versus in person.
I think it is helpful for many of usbecause we maybe didn't have to commute
for an hour every day in terms of ourown mental health and we felt more
productive and so we were doing more work.
The challenge is we're still human beingsand FaceTime is still really important, in

(28:06):
terms of, Felicia talked about sponsors.
It's hard to get a sponsor if you lookat people and their pictures are this big
and you don't have an opportunity to readthe body language and hear the inflection
in a way that's different in person.
So I think you have to have anorganization that knows how to balance it.
And I don't think any of ushave figured that one out yet
from a corporate standpoint.
I really don't.
I think we're all still tryingto figure out how do you create

(28:27):
equity in a pseudo remote,somewhat flexible work environment.
When push comes to shove, it reallydoes come down to relationships.
That's how you develop a sponsor.
That's how you are able to getvisibility in the organization.
And so however you build relationships,whether it's virtual or in person,
leverage that and really work on that.

(28:48):
I've read article after articleabout how black women in particular
are in a virtual environment.
And some of the reasons is becauseyou just don't face the same level
of microaggressions that you face.
In an in person environment, likemicroaggression after microaggression.
And so the idea that you can just, comeinto a virtual environment, do your

(29:10):
job without everything that goes on ina physical space has just been less
stressful, and more accommodatingof the mental health of black women.
The challenge is, as Jay is saying,there's working and there's growing.
And so in order to advance inyour career, if you want to move
up the corporate ladder, that'swhere the conversation moves from.

(29:31):
Well, can I really advance andcan I move up in my career?
in a virtual space.
And I think companies arereally struggling with how to
do that because it goes back.
If I don't know you, I can't grow youand I cannot be your sponsor and I
can't vouch for you because it's veryhard to do all that in a virtual space.
But if you just want to work and doyour job, that's one conversation.

(29:51):
If you want to be promoted and youwant to advance in your career, it
is really difficult for companies tofigure out how to do that personally.
Here's another one specificallyfocusing on working mothers.
Based on your experience, what arekey ways for leaders, supervisors
and peers to support workingmothers within our organizations?

(30:11):
Again, as women, I think we maybe areable to be a little bit more empathetic
and understanding and I think how wecan support is, potentially being able
to understand the choices that a womanmay have to make even in a virtual
setting on how present they are in thatvirtual setting, if in fact they have
a sick child at home so while I dothink there are barriers I think both

(30:35):
Jay and Felicia have talked about thebarriers to Progressing in your career.
Because relationships areusually born better in person.
And , that's how you continue togrow and find opportunities to link
with someone who sees that your valueand is then willing to support you.
And so I am concerned that in the virtualsetting that sometimes as we talked in

(31:01):
the last question, women have to makechoices, and sometimes those choices
are going to be about their familyfirst, because of, I'm not going to say
a necessary expectation, but dependingon if you're a single mom or not may be
a expectation like that whole notionof who's called when there's a child
that's sick so those factors becomea greater barrier and already a complex

(31:24):
environment that has many barriers anyway.
When I'm advising or having conversationswith other women, in my brain,
it's like, what is it you're tryingto accomplish in the workplace?
Because we all have different motivations.
We all have different aspirations.
Not everybody wants to be the C. E.O. And if you do want to be the C. E.
O that's a different conversation tome to Renee's point about the choices

(31:48):
that have to be made and the sacrificespotentially that have to be made and
how you show up because let's face it.
It is It's at the very top.
It is still a verytraditional white male world.
And if that's the space that youultimately want to break through , that
is a different set of requirements thatwill require a different set of choices.

(32:09):
But if you aspire to ownyour own business, that's
a different conversation.
I love my job, I just wantto be respected in my job.
That's a different conversation.
And so for me, the question is alittle hard because my first question
is, what is it that you hope togain as a woman in the workforce?
Because.

(32:30):
That path, those decisions, thatinteraction is going to be completely
different, depending on what youwant out of corporate America.
Something happenedyesterday here in my office.
So I sit outside for some of my meetings.
There's a courtyard andone of the doors opened.
My friend had her service dog with her.
So the service dog is facing thedoor and in the doorway was a six

(32:52):
year old little girl whose dad wasacross the courtyard in a meeting.
And I think if we can normalizethat we are working parents that
will start to shift things as well.
And this young man, he's younger thanme, so I'll call him a young man.
He's a senior director, very wellrespected, happens to be an African
American man, but he brought hisdaughter because he had to that day.

(33:15):
And nobody blinked.
We were like, she knows where she's going.
She's going to walk acrossthe courtyard to dad.
She's going to walk back to his office.
And I just thought that wouldn'thave happened 20 years ago.
So if we can normalize that someof us are working parents and
that's just a part of our life.
And this is what he had to do.
Bring his daughter towork and she was fine.
We were fine.
The service dog was fine.

(33:36):
Everybody was fine.
And , that might be a sort of LAexample, but I just thought that
would not have happened 20 yearsago when my daughter was that age.
And so I think that'spart of it is shifting.
The culture really is about just sharingour stories and that's how adults learn.
We learn by storytelling, right?
That's a great example.
And that's wonderful.
And it's open and it'sinclusive as long as.

(33:59):
That when you get behind closed doorsand you're making decisions about who's
going to be that next level, that if aftersenior director is partner or whatever,
that next level is that unconscious biasof what that next level looks like, you
can't take that into that conversation.
That has to be the rest of the story.
Otherwise great and it's inclusiveand that comfort level is attainable.

(34:24):
But until those closed door decisionsabout who gets promoted and what that
person needs to do and what that personneeds to sound like and look like and
conform to until that changes, thenyou have inclusivity without having
someone with a seat at the table.
You don't have someone who has the abilityto be their authentic self and be elevated

(34:45):
beyond that mythical glass ceiling.
To all women who are ininfluential positions and roles.
What is that space of leverageof power of how much do we
want to push on those doors?
Because those glass ceilings havebeen created by those closed doors.

(35:07):
So how far do we go to continuingto playing that game versus creating
the new game or a new table?
And I know what I'm talking aboutis herculean, multiple decades worth
of work, but I'm just curious abouthow are y'all thinking about this?
Given roles that you're in,the positionality, what is the
game that you choose to play?

(35:28):
I would say from my lived experience,there is a clash that happens
between all the great DE& I workand initiatives, inclusivities,
ERGs, all that is wonderful.
And I applaud all companieswho are making that investment.
The clash becomes when You are rising.

(35:49):
This is all within the environmentof trying to go higher and higher
into that narrow pyramid in yourcareer where conformity kicks in.
At what point are youpolitically aware enough?
I'm talking corporateAmerica and primarily that.
Oh, yeah, all the D and I, all of that.
work.
All of my authentic self worked.

(36:09):
And now I realize, yeah, thatdoesn't work so much when I get into
that narrower part of the pyramid.
And there's a level of conformityexpected because you will
be the only one in the room.
And as a black woman,I'm already outnumbered.
And It's already unusualfor me to be in this space.
It's already not normal.

(36:32):
And so there is a desire as soon asyou walk into the room, you look that
because people are like, Whoa, you don'ttypically see a black woman in the space.
And so you're already upagainst a perception that.
One of these things don't belong.
And so you have a choice, you caneither continue to do and be and say

(36:52):
and dress and appear and talk the wayyou always have, or you can begin to
make subtle adjustments so that you canbegin to combat that initial reaction
of one of these things don't belong and.
Basically you're relaxing the room.
And how much do you change yourselfso that you can take the, whoa,

(37:13):
what the who, what the hey, kind ofreaction out of the room in order to
move past that and get the work done.
And I'm just being honest,in my experience, there
is a level of conformity.
There's a, there's some tweaking,there's some adjustments that
have to happen so that you can.
You can be taken seriously.
I am all for authentic selfand everything around the end.

(37:33):
I, I just know that for me, whenyou get into some traditionally white
spaces that does not always translate.
When you want to have a voice and to beconsidered credible in the room, there's
a slight level of conformity that happens.
One of the challenges for all of us whoare DI practitioners is what is that

(37:54):
balance right with decision makers whomay not look like me and me trying to
influence policy and change, and it'sfunny because you made me think about
this one meeting I was sitting in, andit was like, every man in their head
on a French blue button up shirt, likeliterally every single one of them.
So when you say it's likethey, dress the same.
It felt like I was lookingat the same person.

(38:15):
Here at AEG is a little more relaxed.
Like we've got the sports guys thatkind of wear the polos and I literally
have sneakers on today, but I think myapproach to the work is that I try to
get my leaders to see that representationis a small piece of the work.
We have to think about How we'reimpacting the community in terms of are
we giving back to where we do business?
How are we supporting diverse vendorsand giving them business opportunities

(38:39):
to support their business growth?
And so I try to speak the languageof how are we impacting our fans
and our communication so that theycan buy more tickets to our events.
Like I try to think about this work interms of bottom line business decisions.
And the representation piece is acomponent, but it's not what I lead with
when I do this work, because I thinkif you only talk about representation,

(39:01):
you don't look at the culture, andthen you don't look at the bottom line,
business leaders will just say that'sjust what Jay is going to work on, right?
That's not my responsibility.
That's the challenge for those of uswho are in corporate America is many of
our leaders don't look like us, thoseof us that are on the screen right now.
And so we need to numberone be heard by them.
And number two, find those allies.

(39:23):
That have, whatever the connectionI can make, maybe they like sailing.
I like being on the water.
Let's talk about that.
And then start to have theconversations about what's
your business challenge today?
How can I help you withthat business challenge?
those are the ways that I'vebeen able to be successful.
I've been doing thiswork for over 20 years.
It's not been an easy road to bea single mom working in corporate
America for all this time.

(39:43):
Yeah.
I just wanted to add, as well as Felicia,I think the reality though of this
notion of you get to a place where theconformity or assimilation happens.
While I mean working in a non profitnow, I spent a great deal of my career
in banking and I remember my boss, whowas president of the division or of
our region said to me, we're gettingsome comments from people that feel

(40:06):
, that you're a little too confident.
And I, and so we had a relationship,so I could say this to him.
I said I don't understand howI'm supposed to be any different.
I am a black woman in a Pretty muchwhite male dominated environment.
And and he said, that's exactlywhat they're talking about.
And so I said I am who I am.
And if I can't continue being whoI am here, then I probably won't

(40:26):
stay in this work realistically.
And honestly, I think if you are inthat space and it's like the difference
between getting to that next rung andnot, and if it means, Hey, I have to
go golf, You're probably going todo it because it's a means to an end.
I couldn't agree with Renee more and theword I was looking for was assimilate.
So thank you.

(40:46):
And, you heard Renee, she made a choice.
I could stay and assimilate.
And these are very smalladjustments that I'm referring to.
This is when someone asksyou, what are you reading?
I could be honest and say,James Baldwin, go tell it on the
mountain, or I can modify that tosomething that is more consistent
with their cultural expectations.

(41:07):
I'm not going to say the autobiographyof Michael Max for the fifth
time, and so these are likelittle, or what are you watching?
I'm like, Oh, reruns of good times.
We're like good times.
What the heck is that?
I might say, Oh, reruns of friends,because that is a culturally
acceptable response in that world.
And so I'm talking really.
I just want to be clear forthe people who are listening.
I'm not talking.
You have to go and change and,get a blue shirt and the blazer.

(41:32):
I'm talking just real subtleties thatalmost require you to put your gender
and ethnicity aside to embrace themajority's culture so that you can, be
accepted in that particular space or not.
And all of these qualities are whatyou'll refer to as the superpowers

(41:52):
of flexibility, adaptability, grace,compassion, collaboration, right?
You're coming into a space with theacknowledgement, okay, this is a
new space, putting yourself in thatlearner, assimilative headspace.
Is that same curiosity and gracebeing extended the other way
of wanting to know about you?
Of the consideration of, okay, thisis just one person coming into the

(42:12):
room, but how do the rest of us
folk who have been on thistable historically, what
might we need to do to adapt?
What might we need to do to shift?
And how much is it possiblyonly happening one way?
One of the things we did withour executive education, because
we are building this right aftershutdown happened right after

(42:32):
the murder of George Floyd.
And after I held these listening sessionsfor our employees to tell executives
what they're thinking, what they'reexperiencing, what's good, and how
can we fix some of these challenges?
I made sure that our education forexecutives included the concept
of empathy, and I didn't knowhow it was going to land on folks.
We were doing this virtual with, 40 peoplein a class virtual having conversations,

(42:55):
but it got back to me that when theyhad one of those closed door meetings
down the hall, like behind everything,my CEO said, as we're thinking about
these policies, I remember, I learnedthat I need to be more empathetic.
And the fact that he said that inthe room in front of all the folks
that went through the trainingwith him, that was pretty powerful.

(43:16):
You can train folks or not train.
You can teach folks new skills, right?
We do it all the time.
We have to position these kindsof development opportunities.
Executives don't go to education.
They figure they're at this spot.
They don't need to do any more learning.
There's so much more tolearn about human beings.
And I think there are expectations fromyoung employees in particular about how

(43:38):
corporations and companies will operate.
Young folks aren't going to stayin companies that are too exclusive
or that are too one way, whateverthat one way is, culture needs to
be much more flexible today or yourbusiness will not stay in business.
That's just the way it is interms of the reality of the world.
So I want to break down this.

(43:59):
Theme into buckets.
One is self advocacy.
So we have a couple of questions fromwomen around what recommendations you
might have to overcome imposter syndrome.
That is so funny.
I had a call earlier with a CEO.
He was talking about when he went throughthe interview process, there is a job
responsibility list and had 12 things.

(44:21):
that were required to be CEO, andhe said, I was really good at five,
four, I was fine with, and, the otherthree, they just weren't my strength.
But in the interview process, he said,yeah, but as long as you're okay with
these nine, then I'm your person.
And I was thinking in my head thatwomen would have looked at the 12 and
said, I need to be good at all 12.

(44:43):
And if I'm not, I'm not evengoing to apply for the job.
And that sort of captured thatconcept of imposter syndrome.
We don't give ourselves enough grace.
I cannot tell you how many rooms I've beenin where you have people who are being
considered for promotion, where the guyspromote it and whatever the opportunities
are, that guy is allowed to address thoseopportunities in the higher role where

(45:08):
the conversation around the woman is.
Felicia is, you know, really needto see her be able to do X, Y and Z
before we move her into the upper role.
And I don't know if that'sjust the confidence of a guy.
I don't know if that's their mindset.
yeah, I, I need to be better atcoaching, but I can learn coaching
at the higher level versus, I'm notthat good at coaching as a woman.

(45:28):
So let me learn it before I get promoted.
And we must yeah.
Absolutely stop, cease and desist.
That type of thinking.
I don't know where it comes from.
I don't know if it's part of our DNA.
This idea that we have to beperfect in order to have it all.
I hated that expression by the way.
I just know we are notgiving ourselves enough grace.

(45:49):
We are not giving ourselves enough credit.
And we should and we absolutely need to
I was smiling the whole time policewas talking because that would be me.
I think, yes, I'm in the nonprofitworld, but, depending on the nonprofits
I'm sitting with, some of them aremultimillion dollar nonprofits.
And I don't feel that I can actuallylet on to what I don't know.

(46:10):
So , I just feel like, okay, let me goresearch this a little bit more because I
know I'm going to meet with this person.
I need to know this.
I need to be.
I know that I don'tgive myself that grace.
I think there are some environmentsthat I feel more comfortable
being vulnerable and honest.
But when I'm in those settingswhere I'm going, I'm sitting with
someone who is a CEO at maybe adifferent level of nonprofit, I

(46:32):
just feel that I have to be equal.
, and that imposter syndrome showthat because I'm like, Oh, I
don't want them to know that.
I don't know.
But it could be that, in the longrun, it probably is better for me
to say, you know what, that's notreally where my capacities are.
But there are some places Ifeel comfortable saying that.
But.
You know, if I'm being honestthat's not something I would do.

(46:52):
I'm sitting on a call with an SVPand a CEO president of a company and
feeling imposter syndrome to the max.
I just feel like I'm just thislittle VP trying to talk, I
just work in entertainment.
It's not like this.
We're not changing the world here.
So imposter syndrome is real.
And I think for me, there's thisextra layer of being Asian American,
which means I'm supposed to bereally humble and I'm supposed to

(47:13):
be really not toot my own horn.
I'm supposed to be put my head down anddo all the hard work and I'll be rewarded.
But the reality is that's not howit works in corporate America.
You have to be able to toot your own horn.
And so I think for me, it waslike, I'm just as smart as
those people down the hall.
So how do I get down the hall?
And so to get over impostersyndrome I have to be different.

(47:35):
They see me as different.
So let me just stay different.
And figure out a way to be heard,but it's comes and goes all the
time, depending on what space of.
For me being in spaces where thereare primarily women of color , it's
really helped me in my career, becausewe all have very similar struggles
regardless of our race you are.
Especially when you're a working parentsor like me, a single working mom, there

(47:58):
are just things that you need to knowthat you're not the only one out there.
You may be the only one in your company,but you're not the only one out there.
So that's really helped me get pastimposter syndrome is just knowing
that there's all these women who arepresidents and CEOs that have been very
similar experiences that I have had.
So to clarify, Jay, youare changing the world.
All of you are.
And you're leading us to thenext phase of advocacy, which is

(48:21):
what I call collective advocacy.
Women supporting women.
What recommendations do you have formore collective advocacy to take place?
Clearly events like this, right?
I think there's a lot of opportunityin this day and age for women to
come together either professionallyor personally in your community.
J mentioned being part of yourschool board advocacy, whether you

(48:43):
run for school board or not beingactive in your local community.
Voice of women in this day and age isso powerful now that There are lots
of opportunities to create allyship.
And what I have found personally iscreating allyship outside of my workspace.
Yes, I have, people that I talk toinside the workspace, but I have found

(49:07):
the most growth sometimes comes fromtalking to other women who don't work
for Macy's, for example and maybe justin the neighborhood or they're from
church or they're from, my kids school,which is where I met Renee, that helps me
clear my head and get out of my own waywhen it comes to my professional growth.
So that has worked very well for me.

(49:27):
My first thought was like Felicia said,this conversation, in the work that
I do we are tackling difficult issues.
And what I find to be the way to bridgethe gap is that , no matter what level
you are, when we just talk about thedifficulty, the challenge from whatever
vantage point, from whatever our lensesthat's when people go, Oh, wow, I didn't

(49:48):
really know that you had that feeling too.
And I guess the more thatthere can be these kind of safe
places where this dialogue canhappen across different sectors.
I think that's where the opportunity lies.
We have more commonalities thannot, no matter where we are in the
continuum or level of achievement.
What would you say to allies ofwomen who want to be advocates?

(50:11):
What do we need from our allies?
Whether it's bringing back womeninto the workforce, whether it's
sponsoring women, whether it's makingsure that they make it to the C
suite, whatever that means for you.
I think if somebody wants tobe an effective ally, they need
to ask that partner what theyneed and not make assumptions.
I think there's been a lot ofassumptions made about what Working

(50:33):
parents need in the workplace.
But everything is so different today.
I just feel like the policiesthat were created 20 years
ago just don't apply anymore.
We really have to blow some ofthem up and start from scratch.
And Toyota, we always talked aboutgo look, go see, you go to the source
and you ask the questions there.
You don't make assumptions from outside.

(50:53):
So I would say that's the1st thing we need to do.
If we're trying to be an ally to somebodyask them what they need, and then you
work together on figuring that out
1 of my 1st jobs in Coca Cola.
My boss just said, I'm goingto get 5 or 6 women together.
And once a month on a Friday,we're going to go out for
margaritas and just talk and.

(51:14):
And just, just connect and that was oneof the best practices, which I try to
continue because it was such a great idea.
Just to say, , let's just talk.
Let's just share what we're learning.
Let's just share what we are hearing.
It doesn't sound so bravein this day and age.
But it was at that time because at thattime, women just didn't, congregate.

(51:34):
And so , I continue to do that.
And whatever level you are, if you havethe ability just to grab some women
and just say, Hey, let's get together.
Let's go out for coffee.
Let's just meet.
Let's just talk about what's happening.
That can be so helpful.
We didn't call it ally ship back then,but that's essentially what it was.
And then finally, what doesorganizational advocacy need to look

(51:56):
like today in terms of policies,benefits, communication, messaging?
Employee resource groups, affinitygroups we do this spotlight thing
at Macy's where you're spotlightingkey executives or key talent and
you're spotlighting aspiring people.
And the more you are reinforcing thatyour culture is inclusive, 1, that

(52:18):
is an open 1, and that we want tobe reflective of our customer base.
And you began to see that throughevery single internal, external
communication, and you began tosee it in the movement of people.
And so you really have to havethe H. R. Programs in place to get
underneath what what talent looks like.

(52:38):
We cannot continue to define highperforming talent the same way.
And so if your H. R. Organizationis using the same wording, the same
evaluations the same way of measuringwhat high performance look like.
I challenge you to really think aboutthat because that definition was for
a different world or a different time.

(53:00):
And you really need to take a stepback and say, wow, we have all these
people at all these different lipids.
experiences that are bringing differentskills, different capabilities to the
table and how you measure success andhow you decide who gets promoted and
who's high performing should reflectwhere we are today, not what we
expected from people, 50, 70 years ago.

(53:21):
Number one, don't have diversity, equityand inclusion sit in HR, and I don't.
I was very adamant about not havingmy department sit in HR and have
diversity at the table for marketing,communications, internal and external,
government affairs, HR, all of it.
I invite myself to meetings all thetime because if I'm not the expert,

(53:41):
but I may be able to know who theexpert is, so how do I bridge that and
bring that perspective into the call?
So that's my very biasedopinion, but I think it works.
And I would just add to that in thespace of health that I work in this whole
notion of building a culture buildinga culture of health, I think, in a
corporate setting and almost any setting.
And I think your point about being in ameeting, even if you're not the expert.

(54:05):
But it's designing a culturebecause, frankly, that's
how the world really works.
You know, it doesn't really workas top down as most hierarchical
organizations are designed.
It really works by you're probablybest when you really are more
informed by a broader cross sectionof viewpoints where it's safe to
speak or act or function differently.

(54:27):
But yet you may have some ideaor ideation that could actually
move the organization forward froma business growth perspective.
And so I think it's going to take somereal innovation or risk to actually
create those cultures where franklythere's going to be greater success.
And unfortunately, those things thatyou don't really understand you fear.

(54:50):
Therefore you.
Think that I can't have that becauseI don't really know how that's going
to play out, but that's probablythe greatest opportunity to have
the greatest improvement and growth.
I cannot thank each of you enough foryour time, your generosity, and your
wisdom in everything that you've shared.
I am fangirling and geeking out here.
I don't think it was imposter as muchas Oh my God, this is so incredible.

(55:12):
So thank you and so incredibly proud toknow you and what you do and keep doing
what you do and thank you for what you do.
we continue the exploration ofworkplace culture with our next episode,
fatigue and repair on the way to EDIA.
Thank you for listening to Farsight Chats.

(55:33):
I I hope that this episode is the startto future conversations you have with
your colleagues, teams, and communities.
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Thank you for answering the call todo more, do better, and do different.