EP27: Forging A Healthy Workplace - A Mental Health Perspective

In this episode of FARSIGHT Chats, hosted by Farah Bala, founder and CEO of FARSIGHT, the conversation centers around promoting mental health in the workplace. Farah is joined by Stephanie Forbes of Commerce Tools, and Eva Rüger from OpenUp, hosted by Nicole Hayworth, as they discuss the complexities of mental health at work. The discussion, part of Commerce Tools' Toolbox series for Mental Health Awareness Month (May 2025), explores the balance between personal and employer responsibilities, the impact of diverse identities and neurodivergence on mental health needs, and the importance of psychological safety. The conversation emphasizes the roles of feedback, autonomy, and consistent support in fostering a healthy and productive work environment. The episode concludes with insights on the future of workplace mental health support, underscoring the necessity of curiosity, proactive planning, and human-centered leadership. Listeners are encouraged to reflect on their workplace support systems and personal self-care practices.

| KEY TOPICS DISCUSSED |

MENTAL HEALTH IN THE WORKPLACE: MYTHS & REALITIES

• Access ≠ Safety: Offering mental health resources is not enough if the culture discourages their use due to stigma.
• Support ≠ Diagnosis: Employees don’t need a diagnosis to deserve support; mental health exists on a spectrum.
• Cultural Norms Evolve: Outdated workplace models (e.g., 9-to-5, 5-day work week) no longer serve today's diverse and tech-driven workforce.

RESPONSIBILITY: EMPLOYER VS. EMPLOYEE

• Backpack Analogy (Farah Bala): Everyone carries personal experiences ("backpacks"); individuals are responsible for unpacking theirs, while companies should acknowledge and support employees without owning their personal burdens.
• Balance of Responsibility:
• Employer: Provide tools, normalize mental health, offer psychological safety.
• Employee: Practice self-awareness, self-regulation, and engage in self-care.

EQUITY, DEI, & MENTAL HEALTH

• Mental health is a DEI issue, not just a wellness concern.
• Support must be tailored: Uniform solutions don’t work across identities. Cultural context and ERGs (Employee Resource Groups) are key to inclusivity.
• Managers should be trained in inclusive leadership and coaching skills.

PSYCHOLOGICAL SAFETY VS. SAFETY

• Psychological safety = courage to speak up, authenticity, and growth.
• Safety = comfort zone, avoidance, passivity.
• Effective leaders create conditions for psychological safety, not passive comfort.

PREVENTING OVER-DEPENDENCE

• Resources should empower, not enable.
• Managers should avoid becoming pseudo-therapists—listen, coach, refer to professional support systems.

COMMUNICATION & ACCOUNTABILITY

• Regular, informal feedback loops create psychological safety and reinforce accountability.
• Cascading communications from leaders, ERGs, and HR are essential to increase awareness and usage of mental health offerings.

LOOKING HEAD: FUTURE OF WORK

• Neurodiversity and Gen Z expectations require adaptive strategies.
• One-size-fits-all won’t work—employers need to lead with curiosity and co-design support systems with employees.
• AI & Wellbeing: Technology should spark ideas, not replace human empathy.

RECOMMENDATIONS

• Embed mental health into leadership development and company-wide strategy.
• Invest in training managers as coaches, not just task managers.
• Build infrastructure for agility and foresight—anticipate, don’t react.

| SHOW NOTES |

00:00 Introduction to...

Episode Transcript

(00:01):
Welcome to Farsight Chats, your Guideto Navigating Complex and Important
Conversations on Society and Culture.
I'm your host, Farah Bala,founder and CEO of Farsight.
We specialize in leadership andorganizational development, focusing
on equity, diversity, and inclusionas core leadership competencies.

(00:22):
Join us in these conversationsthat aim to foster understanding,
growth and positive change.
Today we bring you a conversationthat I was invited to as a
guest speaker by Commerce Tools.
They are a commerce based platformthat provides solutions for
businesses to evolve, build,and scale at their own pace.

(00:42):
As part of their toolbox series forMental Health Awareness Month in May,
2025, I joined Stephanie Forbes, the DEIand Belonging Leader for the Americas
at Commerce Tools and Eva Ruger,who is a psychologist at Open Up, an
accessible platform for mental wellbeing.
Thank you again to Nicole Hayworth fromCommerce Tools for inviting me to talk

(01:04):
about forging a healthy workplace culturethrough the lens of mental health.
Friends.
This has to be one of the more honestconversations that I've had on the topic
of supporting mental health in workplaces.
You've heard me say this before.
When our people thrive, our businessthrives and healthy workplace culture
does not exist without the prioritizationof mental health and wellbeing.

(01:29):
This is a complex and nuanced discussion,not just about the thin line that exists
between one's personal and professionallives, but also the importance of
employers understanding and beingresponsible for employee mental health.
I introduce my backpack analogy tohave you consider your own personal
responsibility in taking care ofyourself instead of assuming that

(01:53):
your workplace is fully responsiblefor your mental health and wellbeing.
So as you listen in today,we invite you to consider:
what support systems does yourworkplace offer to promote
a healthy workplace culture?
What are your own personal self-care andwellbeing practices that you prioritize?
And finally, where do you draw theline between personal responsibility

(02:16):
and your employer's role inmaintaining your mental health?
Join us on this journey oflearning and unlearning.
In today's episode of Farsight Chats.
hi everyone, and welcome tothis episode of The Toolbox.
I'm Nicole Hayworth and I'mso glad that you're here.
I've been really lookingforward to this conversation.

(02:37):
I think it's one that's gonnaresonate with a lot of us.
As you may know, it's mental healthawareness month, and today we are
diving into a topic that feelsespecially timely, how mental wellbeing
shows up in our professional lives.
A recent study from Lyra Healthfound that 87% of workers dealt with
at least one mental health issuelast year, and 65% said it actually

(03:00):
impacted their ability to work.
At the same time, a spill chatstudy showed that only 13% of
employees feel comfortable talkingopenly about their mental health.
That gap says a lot.
So today we're gonna explore thatin-between space where personal and
professional lives meet and talk aboutwhat responsibility companies have when

(03:21):
it comes to supporting mental healthand where personal accountability comes
into it is a nuanced conversation.
It might get a little uncomfortable,but it's also one we need to have
if we're serious about creatingworkplaces that are actually supportive.
To help us navigate this landscapewe've invited some incredible guests
who bring deep experience and verydifferent perspectives to the table.

(03:43):
First up is Ava Ruger, a psychologistbased in the Netherlands.
Ava holds a degree in health and medicalpsychology with a focus on health
promotion and disease prevention, andshe's trained in both solution focused
and acceptance and commitment therapy.
At Open Up where she's beenfor the past four years.
Ava supports clients one-on-one and ingroups as they work through mental health

(04:05):
challenges and move towards their goals.
We are also joined by Farah Bala, founderand CEO of FARSIGHT, a leadership and
organizational development agency.
Farra is an executive coach,consultant and host of the podcast
FARSIGHT Chats, where she exploreswhat it really takes to build
inclusive, healthy workplace cultures.

(04:25):
And last, but definitely not least,we have Stephanie Forbes, who
leads diversity, equity, inclusion,and Belonging at Commerce Tools.
Stephanie's work centers on creatinglasting change and making sure people
feel seen, heard, and valued at work.
She brings a human-centered lens toinclusion and is passionate about building
workplaces that are more authentic,more equitable, and more connected.

(04:48):
we're so lucky to haveeach of them with us today.
So let's start by opening it up witha question for the entire panel.
Mental health in the workplace isa topic of increasing importance.
What do you think are some ofthe myths and misconceptions
around mental health as a whole?
Well, I think one of the, mostmisunderstood aspects of a company's

(05:09):
role in supporting mental health isthat the belief that simply offering
resources like emergency access program,open up Mental health days is enough.
Access is really important, but it'snot the only part of the equation and
if the culture doesn't make it safeto actually use those resources, like

(05:32):
if employees fear about being judged,sideline, or seen as weak they won't
reach out no matter what's available.
One other common myth, I wantedto throw this in here, is that
you have to be diagnosed to needsupport , and that's just not true.
Mental health exists on a spectrum, right?

(05:52):
I. You don't need a formal diagnosis tofeel anxious or overwhelmed or burned out.
There are companies should be proactivein creating environments where early
intervention and preventative care,like setting boundaries or taking a
day off are normalized and encouragedand to make meaningful progress.

(06:13):
I think companies need to shift theirmindset to make mental health part
of the equity strategy, not just awellness initiative, understood that
the support may look different acrossthe regions identities and roles, and
train our managers to really respond withempathy, not just performance metrics.
Although they're needed normalize everydaycheck-ins, not just crisis intervention.

(06:39):
And mostly important elevateunderrepresented voices and allow
ERGs to co-lead wellness efforts.
That's how you build trust in a culturewhere people can actively thrive.
Stephanie, I aligned so muchwith everything that you just
said, that the normalization.
Something that I find myself saying is Ithink we need to assume and anticipate and

(07:03):
acknowledge that not just the conversationof mental health, but the state of
mental health has evolved tremendously.
And the evolution of mental healthis not just that we have a lot more
vocabulary around it and, to the pointthat Stephanie made around that you
have to be diagnosed, but we have tobring into this conversation invisible
mental health, spaces that people mightbe living with and that connects to

(07:28):
the intersectional space of identityis Generational processes, generational
trauma, workplace trauma from the pastwith the younger generations we are
currently in a time where the neweremployees that are coming into the
workspace have grown up with technology.
My generation did not do that.
And we need to acknowledge how thatshifts, how work is done, how that

(07:50):
shifts how information is taken inthe load that it is on the brain,
and how the access to technology andinformation and workplace productivity
and efficiency is also having a downsideto our wellbeing and our wellness.
And within workplace, we're havingglobal conversations right now

(08:11):
around do we need the nine to five,do we need the five day work week?
And so those are theassumptions of the past.
What worked then cannot beplugged into what works now.
I think that's the biggest piecewe have to really lean into.
I love the data thatyou brought in, right?
The fact that such a high percentage, 87%of the workplace population experienced

(08:34):
some form of mental health last year.
And we're not even talking about whatthat was like during the pandemic.
The other part of it is we have to bringin the conversation on neurodiversity
here and how more and more individualsare coming in with some form of it.
We probably have the highestlevels of neurodiverse populations.
Are we equipped to, to work with them?

(08:55):
Are we equipped to, to really understandwhat their strengths are and lean them
out versus expecting them to fit in abox that may potentially be an archaic
one that the organization has had.
For decades, and thathasn't been interrogated.
We need to bring ourselves tothe present moment to start
being able to offer impactfulsolutions to what will work today.

(09:18):
I fully agree withwhat's been said already.
And I think it's really important tostress the relationship between US at
the workplace and our mental wellbeing.
And they do impact each other that if wefeel mentally well at work, which doesn't
just mean an absence of a diagnosis ora mental illness, but actually feeling
resilient, feeling motivated, beingable to make connections with the

(09:38):
people around us, then that impacts.
Our productivity at the workplaceand our relationships, and of course
also work stress factors impact ourmental wellbeing and they're so closely
intertwined and so much connected thatit's really important that employers
now also normalize that mental wellbeingis a topic that we discuss at work
and where we need also need resourcesto navigate it at the workplace.

(10:01):
And speaking of that connection, Ava,I'm curious, where do you see the
natural boundary for an employer'sinvolvement in an employee's mental
wellbeing before it potentiallybecomes intrusive or potentially
oversteps personal responsibility.
I think there's maybe not such thing asa natural boundary or a boundary that
we can generalize to every workplaceor every situation, but there's

(10:24):
definitely areas of responsibility.
So the responsibility of the employers toprovide resources to normalize the topic
of mental wellbeing at the workplace tocombat the stigma that way and make it an
inclu inclusive and psychologically safeplace for everyone, and that it's still
the employee's responsibility to use theresources that are provided to make.

(10:47):
Choices based on their needs to alsobe an active participant in their own
mental health journey, understandingtheir own needs and therefore also
knowing what they need and whattypes of resources they want to use.
And that it's also part of the employer'sresponsibility to know and accept
the choice that an employee makes.
So that's also a crucial partof psychological safety that.

(11:08):
An employer can offer resources,but they should not and cannot
force anyone to use them.
There's no one size fits all.
And respecting that, having openconversations about it is very important.
So I do think that there is aboundary, but that is also an ongoing
conversation to find where that lies.
I like the point you made about thecompany knowing its employees well enough

(11:28):
to know what resources and support toprovide and I'm curious, Stephanie, when
we're looking at the DEI lens, how doesthat influence where we draw the line on
company responsibility for mental health?
And do you think that there are equityconsiderations that kind of shift this
line for different employee groups?
Mental health isn't justa wellness issue, right?

(11:49):
It's very much a DEI issue.
The reality is that mental healthdoesn't affect everyone the same way.
Like DEI is very individualistic,very humanistic thing.
So everybody deals withthings differently.
Different people carry differentweights and some are dealing with
added stress because of their identitytheir background or systemic barriers

(12:12):
that others might not even see.
So when we ask where a company'sresponsibility begins and
ends, that line isn't fixed.
It shifts depending on who we aretalking to, or who we're talking about.
For example, I. Consider twodifferent employees, right?
They're experiencing burnout.
Just last year we talked about burnout.

(12:33):
One might be dealing with the generalwork stress, while the other person is
a first generation immigrant is alsonavigating language barriers, financial
pressures to support a family backhome, and a fear of being misunderstood
or even penalized for speaking up.
On paper, they both might be offeredthe same mental health day, access to

(12:57):
mediation apps, meditation apps but onlyone of them may feel safe enough to use
it or even believe it is meant for them.
This is where equity matters.
That second employee might benefit morefrom culturally competent counseling
and a manager trained in inclusiveleadership or a safe space like ERGs,

(13:19):
like employee resource groups wherepeople feel seen and heard and understood.
Without this DEI lens.
We miss what's really needed.
We need to take the time tounderstand those deeper layers.
We can design supportthat doesn't just exist.
It works.
Equity means we can't justoffer employees or everyone the

(13:44):
same resource and call it fair.
We need to be asking who might needsomething different, what barriers
are they facing that others aren't?
And more importantly, how canwe meet them where they are?
So that's where the role I thinkof ERGs becomes really powerful.
I. They help surface those unique needs.

(14:05):
They offer community-basedinsights and they advocate for
resources that actually resonate.
So when we bring in A DEI lens tomental health, we stop thinking
like Farra has said, and Ava hassaid one size fits all solutions.
And we start creating support systems thattruly reflect the diversity of our people

(14:28):
. I like that.
Thanks Stephanie.
And Farra, we often hear aboutfostering psychological safety.
I think we've already mentioned ita couple times on this call already.
But do you think a company can trulytake responsibility for an employee's
psychological state, or do you thinkthat the responsibility is to create
an environment where individuals canthen take ownership of their wellbeing?

(14:49):
All right.
This is a very big complex, provocativequestion here, so I wanna be clear.
Psychological safety, differentfrom psychological state, right?
It's very easy to blend in together.
I like to talk about this throughan analogy of every individual
through life, has a backpack.
This backpack is filled withtheir lived experiences.

(15:10):
So let me talk about myself, right?
I am carrying a backpack with my livedexperiences, my work experiences,
my cultural lenses, my valuesystems, the internalized messaging
that has come through the culturalnuances, my migration journey.
I. My workplace experience is whatI have learned from it, where I

(15:31):
got rewarded, where I got dinged.
The generational lineage stuff,including the traumas that I
have collected over a lifetime.
That can also include potentialtriggers based on my last manager's
relationship with me and how I wastreated and how I was rewarded or not.
Now this backpack every single personhas, if I walk around my entire life

(15:57):
without looking into that backpackto see what have I accumulated, what
is working for me, what is true ofme today versus what do I not need?
If I don't regularly do that,that is on no one else but me.
And I can use help, I can usementorship therapy self-help

(16:17):
resources but that is on me to takecare of what's in that backpack.
And what I need currently, what I don'tneed currently, if I don't do that, and
if I go from one workplace to anotherwith an uninterrogated backpack, this
backpack becomes highly flammable
.And now I'm walking into a new workplace with a highly flammable

(16:40):
backpack, and the smallest momentcan create an explosion for me.
It could be a tone, it could be astatement, but it is an unresolved
uninterrogated trigger that Imay not even know that I have.
So this is what I call self-regulation,my relationship with my backpack

(17:00):
to regularly take it off.
Unpack it.
That's all the baggage.
Understand, where is this coming from?
Where is this coming from?
Choose.
I want to keep this, orthis is still tough for me.
All right?
I'm gonna keep working on it.
You have to know very consciouslywhat's in your backpack.
That part is self-regulationis on every individual.
No workplace can make you do that.

(17:22):
I cannot stress this enough.
We have a responsibilitytowards our own wellness.
We have a responsibility towardsthe choices that we make.
This backpack can also include theamount of time we're spending on
social media, the amount of timewe are looking at the headlines.
These are choices that we are making.
You can turn off your notifications.

(17:43):
You can have timely ways to checkin socially if that social media,
dopamine hit is really important.
I. But it is very important to acknowledgefor ourselves that these are our choices.
We have to do that self-regulation.
Now the company is not absolved.
Where the company comes in, wherethe employer comes in is you have to

(18:06):
acknowledge, anticipate, and assume thatevery employee is carrying a backpack.
And that is where employers miss thismoment because it's just, all right,
new person comes in, plug and play.
Here's how we work.
And so there is no curiosity of wherehave you come from, what have you learned?
What works for you, whatdoesn't work for you, right?

(18:29):
How can we tailor your experienceat this company so we are getting
the best version of yourself.
You feel you are able to bring yourauthenticity into the workplace, and all
of that is helping grow our bottom line.
So we have to have curiosityaround the whole person, right?
The backpack is part of the wholeperson, but we and this is the default.

(18:53):
There are lots of companies whodo this and do this really well.
But for anyone, listening in who reallywanna grow and how do we do this?
It's not just the person who'scoming in to fill in a role
and giving you deliverables.
This is about the care andcuriosity and deep interest about
the human and their backpack.

(19:14):
Now, that doesn't mean youtake responsibility for
what's in that backpack.
No.
You can contribute to thatbackpack in a good way.
Through mentorship, through fellowship,through sponsorship, through regular
informal feedback that reallyhelps them grow their skillsets.
Now , you get to contribute to someoneelse's lived experiences that may

(19:34):
enable them to grow within your companyor even when they leave, they will
always speak highly of you becausethey felt good when you were there.
So it is a balance.
It is highly nuanced.
It is not a plug and play.
But it is both sided.
The other piece is someonetalked about boundaries here,
so I wanna make that clear.
Right now we're all talkingabout create boundaries.

(19:56):
And what we are missing is,have I done my work first?
Because if I did my work, I mightnot need as strong of a boundary.
But if we don't check into that backpackand say, oh, I can't take this anymore.
So if we continue our behaviors,that might not be working for us.
If we are not seeking out help, ifwe are not in support spaces we are

(20:18):
now starting to weaponize certainhealthy concepts that are essential.
Boundaries are essential, but what isour relationship to those boundaries?
So again as a coach, I'm doing thiswork with clients all the time.
Irrespective of seniority, right up to theC-suite, the first few months we're gonna
look in that backpack because if we don'tdo that, we don't know what your best
version of yourself is currently today.

(20:40):
I really like that backpack analogy.
So this is for all of you.
Do any of you think that there's a pointwhere company initiatives, even with the
best intentions, can inadvertently createdependency or lessen an individual's own
coping mechanisms to drive and proactivelyseek personal and personalized solutions?

(21:01):
I think even the most well-intendedcompanies initiatives can sometimes blur
the line between support and overreliance.
It's great when organizationsoffer tools and resources to help
employees navigate these challenges,but it's also important to remember
that these are meant to empower.
And not to replaceindividual coping skills.

(21:23):
The goal should be always tobe normalized, help seeking
behavior while also encouraging.
Personal agency, for example, I'llgo back to the the burnout situation.
The company might offer, again,mental health days, access to
mindfulness apps, regular check-ins.
They're all great tools, right?
But if that employee begins to deepdepends solely on those offerings

(21:48):
without developing the skills.
Farra said, you know, going into yourbackpack identifying things where you
need to set boundaries or you don'tneed to set boundaries depending
on your experiences where you needto speak up about your workload or
to build sustainable work habits.
And then the deeperissue goes unaddressed.

(22:08):
That's where I think managers can come in.
When we invest in developing ourleaders who can recognize when
someone's struggling open up aspace for real conversations and
help them co-create practicalstrategies, personalized strategies.
We need to build a culturethat supports without enabling.

(22:29):
It becomes less about handing outa solution and more about walking
alongside the employee as they findtheir own way, and that's what the
balance we should be aiming for.
One that centers both onsupport and self agency.
I fully agree that self-efficacyis so important and that autonomy
is key when it comes to supportingpeople on their wellbeing journey,

(22:52):
at work or outside of work.
So really looking into which resources dowe provide that stimulate that autonomy
that actually support our employeesin looking into their backpack or in
building up tools in a sustainable way.
So we don't do it for them.
Indeed, like offering solutions, butoffering support on their journey so
they can take it away, stay autonomous,and then also stay in control of

(23:13):
their own mental wellbeing journey.
Yeah.
For me this comes back tothe difference between.
Feeling psychologically safe atwork and feeling safe at work.
And for me, in the work that I've beendoing, especially since the pandemic, this
has come up so much because without thatself-regulation, there is an expectation
that I need to feel safe at work.

(23:33):
Safety is comfort.
Safety is, I don't get to challengemyself, I just need to feel okay.
Safety is uninterrogated.
Walking along with thathighly flammable backpack.
Psychological safety is a space whereI can, I feel comfortable bringing
my authentic self, which means.
Being okay with my owndiscomfort if I have a little

(23:54):
bit of discomfort speaking up.
So e elevating my own courage,my vulnerability of sharing
where things are at my honesty inengaging in a conversation where
I might potentially disagree witha point that's being brought up.
Psychological safety is rigorous.
It is active.
Safety is passive.

(24:14):
So to literally, yes.
And both Stephanie and Ava's points,how is the company contributing
to an employee experience thatelevates their psychological safety
and not necessarily their safety?
So I as a manager might feellike, all right Nicole's
going through a lot right now.
Let me help her by justtaking this off her plate.

(24:36):
In the short term, that might be veryhelpful, but as a manager, if I just
continue to do that, Nicole's not growing.
Nicole's not feeling challenged.
Nicole's getting reallycomfortable, right?
And she might even be coasting along,but not necessarily getting that rigorous
experience that can help her growwherever she wants to in her career.

(24:57):
The other example that I giveis if we are all walking down a
road and there is a massive hole.
And let's say I fall in, right?
And I'm like, please help.
I can't get out now.
All three of you cansay, all right, hold on.
Farra, we are coming to help you.
All of you jump in.
Now there are four peoplewho cannot get out.
That is that space of safetywhere it helps no one.

(25:18):
Yeah, the psychological safety placeis saying, all right, Farah Nicole
saying, I'm gonna go call for help.
You stay put.
Stephanie's saying, all right, I'mgonna go look for a branch or two or
a rope to see if we can pull you up.
And Ava being therejust talking me through.
That is that rigorous support.
It's not solving the situation instantly,but it's all working towards the solving.

(25:40):
And coming back to, I think companiesneed to think about how can I walk side
by side, like Stephanie said, where thecompany is, the net, but let's give the
employee space to grow themselves to findthe answers themselves because that is
contributing to their own resilience.
I might think I want help,and so the other part is.

(26:01):
The competency of coachingskills for leaders, for people
leaders is really important.
Managers are only the thought processis I just need to make sure that
the work is getting done and theteam is doing okay, but the coaching
aspect of it is that rigorous inquiryand curiosity and deep listening
without solving for something with,without always solving for something.

(26:24):
Giving the employee space to justslow down, reflect a little bit and
they might come to their own solution.
And that is a lot more empoweringto the point that all of us made.
We have to empower that employeethan just give them the answer.
So again, it's very nuanced, theseare skills that we need to practice.
It's all very active practice and we'renot always gonna get it right, but the

(26:46):
point is to work towards it because whatright looks like today is very different
from what it will even a couple of yearsfrom now we are highly evolving in our
sociocultural political state, but alsowhat that means within the workplace.
So it's about staying agileand saying what is gonna be
most effective for this moment.

(27:07):
And Ava, if an employee is strugglingdue to factors largely outside of work,
for example, their personal relationshipsor financial stress that's not directly
tied to their salary, what do you thinkis the ethical and practical limit of
the company's intervention or support?
Yeah.
So as I said, of course it does play abig role on how we feel at the workplace.

(27:27):
So if we can be productiveand invested and motivated.
I think having an open conversationabout it, so when an employer, for
instance, observe something, sharing theseobservations with the employee and asking
open questions about it is very important.
But that when information is shared,that confidentiality is really crucial.
So whatever information is shared,that it stays between the person asking

(27:50):
about it and the person sharing it, andtransparency on what will be done with the
information shared in the conversation.
And of course, again, accepting whenan employee does not want to talk at
this point about this specific topic.
So definitely acceptance and respectfor the employee's boundaries, the
confidentiality and transparency.
I think the most important aspects.

(28:12):
And Farah, a lot of our conversationsso far has been centering
around, what leaders can do toprovide for their employees.
Leaders are often encouraged tobe empathetic and supportive.
However, what are therisks if leaders become.
psuedo therapists.
So how can they effectively guidethese employees to their resources
without jumping in the hole orbecoming the resource itself?

(28:34):
Yeah.
I feel like I preemptivelyresponded to that earlier.
This is a great point to whatboth Stephanie and Ava responded
to the earlier question of howcan a leader walk side by side?
How are you empowering theemployee without jumping in?
A lot of times, as human beings,our gut is to, oh, I wanna help.

(28:55):
Something's not working.
I wanna help.
But we need to pause and think about, isthis help going to help in the long term?
Or is this help going to enable,like one of you said earlier, right?
We don't want enablement.
Sometimes we can be a mirrorto our employees to help them
do their own self-regulation.
But there is no expectation or need andactually one should never be those pseudo

(29:19):
therapists 'cause we're not licensedto be . However, a people leader,
like I said at the very beginning.
If you do not come in with an assumptionthat every single human is coming in with
that backpack of lived experiences andmessages I think you missed the mark.
However, you don't wanna getinto that backpack either.

(29:40):
Like, Hey, where did thiscome from and What's that?
You don't want that.
So what I say is leadersneed to be excellent coaches.
Now, you don't have to be a certifiedcoach for this, but you need to get
really good at coaching skills, whichare very simple, just constant curiosity.
Ask before telling.
It can lead you in really good stead andjust deep listening without judgment.

(30:01):
Do you have the capacity to listen towhat you are hearing without critiquing
them in your head or without solvingthe problem for them in your head?
Can you just be that net wherethey can pour out not for hours.
Again, this is all within reason.
I have to stress that you havea one hour weekly meeting.

(30:21):
We're not saying that the entire hour, butsometimes it might take 20 to 30 minutes.
But the value of that, it just slowingdown helping them, do that processing.
They might get to the answer themselves.
They may be like, oh, I think I knowwhat I need to do here, or I think
I know where things went wrong.
Why?
Because all you did was ask and listen,and then sometimes you can reflect back.

(30:45):
That's another really powerfulcoaching tool of just what
I'm hearing is that accurate?
Because what that does is create thatdistancing for me to hear back what
I'm saying and being like, oh wait,is that how I'm thinking about it?
Or no, that's.
That's not that, and it helpsme, the employee move further in
whatever I might be struggling with.

(31:05):
We are not enablers as people,leaders, we are empowering.
And how we do that is be the guide.
Sometimes you might have togive some direct feedback.
We are not coddling the employeeeither, but we are helping.
Again, it's that rigor in spaceof, Hey, how are we gonna do this?
And sometimes it's just not taking it on.

(31:25):
It's like asking what is the way forward?
What would help you in this moment?
And then given the timeline.
So, again, case by case basis, butleaders having thinking of themselves
as coaches is really important.
And sometimes within that it's, it'salso a leader's responsibility to say.
It sounds like you're dealing witha lot and you might, benefit from

(31:48):
some support systems that we have.
You are eligible for thispartnership we have with Open Up.
Have you explored that?
To the point someone earlier saidof you might have all of these
resources, but how are you ensuringthat people know about them?
Because people will forget.
There's so much communication coming down.
Not just know aboutthem, but utilize them.

(32:09):
As well.
And so I think that is where the leadercomes in of guiding them to, Hey, here's a
resource, or Hey, here's another resource.
Go look into it and seehow that can support you.
And Stephanie, in your opinion, howcan organizations navigate wanting
to support mental health with thepossible complications that come
from disclosing personal information?

(32:30):
So how can a company maintain trust,especially for underrepresented
groups who might feel more vulnerable?
Great question.
Trust is absolutelyeverything to my opinion.
A company can have all the bestintentions and resources in place,
but if employees don't feel.
Psychologically safe they simplywon't use them, especially from

(32:52):
those that are from underrepresentedgroups who may have already navigated
biases and marginalization from othercompanies or in their lived experience.
For someone in that position,opening up about mental health
can feel incredibly risky.
I can speak that personallybeing an African American woman.

(33:14):
I was very cautious about opening up,not just because of the stigma in the
broader society, but sometimes because ofmy past experiences in other workplaces.
That's why companies need to becrystal clear and make it known
that seeking support won't hurt.
Someone's career or their reputation.
But trust isn't built through just oneannouncement or just one communication.

(33:38):
It's built throughconsistency, everyday actions.
It shows up how managers respondwhen someone opens up in whether
support is culturally competentand in whether employees feel seen
and respected through the process.
That also means.
Investing in training forour managers and leaders.

(34:00):
So they're like equipped,like far said coach.
They need to be coaches.
They need training on how to have theseconversations with empathy and care.
And I think one powerful way tobuild lasting trust by involving
underrepresented groups.
In the evaluation and the designof mental health offerings,

(34:20):
bring the people to the table.
You don't want only justone voice at the table.
You want all different voices.
'cause we all experience different things.
And when people feel included in shapingthe support, they far more likely to
believe in it and they'll actually use it.
Hmm.
I love that.
That's a great point.
Thanks Stephanie.

(34:40):
This question is for all of you.
So imagine a company investssignificantly in mental health
resources, but an employee chooses notto use them, and as a result, their
mental health impacts their work.
Where do you think that the accountabilitylies then, and how does this balance
with performance expectations?
I think this is where having a cultureof feedback is really important.

(35:04):
And this again goes back topsychological safety versus safety.
I can't tell you how many instanceswhen working with our organization
clients where suddenly, the concept ofaccountability is being skewed actively.
And that is very concerning, whenwe are at work, we have a job to do.
And that is based on ouraccountability of ourselves.
However, leaning into that space ofsafety, like there was a client of mine,

(35:28):
they were having a really tough time.
They were increasing their diversity.
They were trying to create a cultureof feedback which means regular,
informal feedback, and I'll talkabout this in a second, but because
they were constantly using safety.
We want everyone to feel safe.
That was latched onto.
And so Stephanie might be, giving mesome feedback, but I will latch onto,

(35:52):
oh, I didn't feel safe with Stephanie.
I felt threatened.
And so suddenly that becomes thefocus versus what is that message
that is hopefully being given tome for my good, for my growth,
that I have no capacity to hear.
So again.
The balance.
It is about psychological safety.
It is that rigor of having that growthmindset knowing that when I am at

(36:13):
work, I will be held accountable.
But how I do work is where I get to shapeit with my manager, with my company.
So that's one piece.
So what is feedback culture?
It's not just about your annualperformance reviews or your
biannual performance reviews.
This is about regular, informal, growthoriented feedback that is a loop.

(36:34):
And it's not just developmental, itis also positive feedback, right?
Mm-hmm.
Of Stephanie needs to tell me,Hey, this thing you did, it's
actually going really well.
Keep doing it.
So again, that is contributing to mybackpack of oh, these are my strengths.
We don't do positive feedback as much.
We only, we jump in with a ruthlessnessinto developmental feedback and

(36:55):
developmental feedback needs to have,Stephanie has to champion me, right?
When she comes in and says,Hey, this thing that you did, we
didn't get the impact we want.
We really need you to do this differently.
She has to come in with a championingmindset knowing that Farra can do it.
Without that, it's going to becomevery action consequence piece.

(37:17):
And I'm not necessarily gonna feelmotivated to change a behavior.
And sometimes we just have to be direct.
That's the other piece tocreate that safety and comfort.
I think leaders are losingthe edge of having some very
direct conversations, right?
Being direct is beingreplaced with being nice.
And being liked.

(37:38):
And that's not the point here.
If I cannot be direct, I amdoing a disservice to my team.
And directness can be highly empatheticand highly compassionate, but we
have to be clear in our message.
So I think regular, informal feedbackis really important to lift up
accountability all across the space.
That's number one.
Number two, there needs tobe consistency of messaging.

(38:00):
Because we are gettinginformation overload constantly.
How many, organizations are sendingdown emails or policy changes?
How many people are actuallyreading through it so you
might have the best benefits.
Get some really great value,but if I don't know about it
you are missing the mark, right?
If your employees don't know about it.
So how are you cascadinginformation consistently?

(38:22):
I. So as an employee, if once a monthor once a quarter, my manager is
making sure they take some time outof our weekly meeting to share that.
When I go to an ERG meeting, if the ERGspace takes some time to share that, if
I'm going to my town hall where my CEO istalking, if they say it takes some time,

(38:43):
so I am getting this information fromvarious spaces to a point where it sticks.
Again, like I said we'reworking in different times.
A few decades ago, people'sattention spans were different.
Right now our attention spans are siloed.
So think about how are youcascading that messaging on and
then following through with it.

(39:03):
I think this is really importantquestion because accountability is shared
between the employee and the company.
And the company can't force us toseek help and it shouldn't, but it
is responsible for creating the kindof environment where where we're
getting these, programs and theseinitiatives in place and investing.

(39:26):
Also, I go back again, I love my managers,but we also need to really invest in
our managers to build a culture ofpsychological safety and making sure
mental health resources are accessibleand culturally relevant as well.
On the employee side.
Once those pathways and resources aremade available, there's also a level

(39:46):
of personal responsibility to engage.
Like Farra said, are theyreading these things?
Yes, we are communicating, butare they really taking the time
out to, to search it out andunderstand what is being offered?
Not everyone will do it right away,but especially if they've had.
Hard pass and we're asking for help thatwhen they didn't feel safe, that's why

(40:08):
consistently and trust building over time.
I wish it was overnight, but overtime it's crucial and if employees
mental health begins to impacttheir performance, it is fair and
necessary for a company to address it.
But how that conversationhappens makes all the difference.

(40:29):
It should come from a place ofempathy, focus on support and
partnership, not punishment.
Just like Farra was saying, thegoal isn't to fix someone, but
to walk alongside with them.
What do you need right now?
How can we help you succeed?
What tools are you missingthat you need to be able to

(40:51):
complete this particular task?
That's where the accountabilityand humanity comes together.
Hmm.
I love that
I think adding to that repetitionand consistency of the messaging
is super important, is alsothe aspect of role modeling.
So we also see that the message ismuch more credible and people are much
more likely to reach out for supportif their manager opened up about their

(41:12):
mental wellbeing or if they heard themanager using some certain resources,
they're more encouraged to use themas well, or when they hear that a
team member has used them and they'vehad positive experiences with it.
Next to the messaging, adding tocredibility and I think role modeling
is also a really important part.
For anyone listening in to thisconversation, feeling like, all right,

(41:32):
this is all well and good, slow down,get curious, care about the human being.
And if you're wondering when does work getdone we have deadlines and deliverables.
When does that get done?
So, , I wanna speak to you inthis moment that we are not
saying that is not priority.
What we're saying is it's copriority, it's co prioritizing.
And sometimes it will happenwhere you're not getting what

(41:54):
you are needing from an employee.
And that time it's gonna be allhands on deck to get that work done.
Because let's say it's a reallyhigh stakes thing, right?
And you have to get it done.
However, all of this that we arejust talking about, the concepts
and practices can engage after.
To have a debrief, reflectiveconversation of like, all right, can

(42:15):
we just walk through this process?
What happened there?
Why didn't we hit theseparticular timelines?
How can we do it differently next time?
You can do all of this ahead oftime, but sometimes look in our
world, things will be missed.
And we're not saying that theydon't, that does not have to have
accountability or we miss those deadlines.

(42:35):
No.
You will have to come together andthe work will need to get done,
and there is time and space to havethese conversations after the fact.
I just wanna be very clear thatthis conversation is centering
the needs of your employees inorder to help the business grow.
It's a both and it's notreplacing one over the other.
Mm-hmm.

(42:56):
I think that's a reallyimportant distinction.
Thank you for adding that on.
We have one final question for you all.
So we've hinted at it a lot of times, butlooking into the future, there are some
estimates I've seen for places like CognosAssist that suggests that 15 to 20% of
the global population is neurodivergent.
And there's data from CipherLearning that indicates that 38%

(43:18):
of 16 to 24 year olds self-identifywith neurodivergent conditions.
So looking ahead, what is a tip that youwould have for an employer who's looking
to bolster their mental health offeringsto best support the future of generations
of workforce who are coming in?
One tip I would offer toemployers looking to support the

(43:39):
mental health future, the mentalhealth of future generations,
especially with growing visibility.
I. Of Neurodivergence is tostart by leading with curiosity.
I'm a humanist, human-centric person,so I'm all about the human but lead
with curiosity and not assumptions.
It's easy to roll out a what you thinkis a one size fits all solution, but what

(44:02):
employees really need is to be feel seen.
To be heard and understood that startswith listening deeply and often.
And our ERGs can also play a rolehere to help employees to be seen,
to be heard and when companiesengage with ERGs as thought partners.

(44:22):
They get access to lived experiencesthat can inform better decisions
and more inclusive offerings.
So looking ahead, we also need toshift from treating wellbeing as a
standalone program to embedding itinto the way we design work itself.
Things like flexible schedules, meetingfree zones, sensory friendly environments,

(44:45):
and clear communication norms, they allcontribute to everyday mental health.
Integration is thefuture, not just add-ons.
And while AI can be helpful,which we didn't touch on too
much we need to use it wisely.
Not as the answer, butas a starting point.

(45:05):
Ask AI questions to spark yourideas, and then explore possibilities
and guide your thinking.
But.
Then validate those ideas with people.
The human context really matters most.
I say, talk to your therapist, talkto friends, talk to your community
ultimately, and talking to yourmanager by creating cultures where

(45:28):
difference is not only welcome,but built into how we work, how we
connect, and we can thrive together.
For me it is about investing in education.
For leaders to show up the way weare asking them to we need to put
in a lot of learning and education.
Within the company andpour that into our leaders.

(45:51):
How are management trainings shifting?
I build leadership programs all thetime, and it's constantly shifting of
what do we need to focus on right now?
We cannot expect our leaders toshow up in these ways if the company
isn't investing in that unifiedmessaging and education around that.
The other piece of education is , Ithink every employer right now

(46:13):
needs to have its research team.
It's what's coming.
Where are we currently at?
And yes.
Currently we're talking aboutwellbeing and mental health right
now, but there's so much else.
To Stephanie's point, the impact of ai.
How is that gonna shiftthe way work is being done?
How is this going to shift?
We can't wait for the change to comebecause things are happening so rapidly.
We need to have teams and divisionsin place within our company to

(46:34):
start looking ahead of what is thefuture of work gonna look like?
What do we need to be prepared for?
I. Because remember this if wedon't have that looking ahead lens,
the chances of us creating harmis higher within the workplace.
We don't want our employeesto be Guinea pigs.
So let's anticipate what's coming.
Let's start puttingbeta processes in place.

(46:57):
Let's start getting feedback.
Let's start leveraging.
The ERG is the employee basegathering employee engagement
metrics and suggestions into whodo we want to become with that
lens of who do we want to become?
I think we create a betterspace of who we are because that
space of agility is embedded.

(47:18):
That things are constantlyshifting, right?
Are we moving?
I mean, the UK has already not justin active talks, but experimented
their beta version of the fourday work week, so for global
organizations, what does that look like?
If you have offices in various regions,you need to be having those conversations.
Five years ago, even today is too late.
And if you are an American basedcompany but has a global population,

(47:41):
how are you thinking about that?
What is AI going to do in terms ofcollaboration, in terms of mental health?
How are, resources like OpenUp, et cetera, going to be
even more widely accessible?
And what else can wesupport our people with?
So I would say pour into yourleaders with the crucial messaging.
Of the kinds of leaders they need to be.

(48:03):
And then , invest in, yourselves,looking ahead for what's coming.
And I'd also like to encourageemployers to take on a kind of
a growth mindset of workplace.
Just like Stephanie said, part of it is.
Leading with curiosity.
So staying curious and seeing whatcan we learn on the way, how can
we become even better at that?
But also while seeing the upsidesand the potential opportunities that

(48:25):
actually making this a topic at work andsupporting our employees the right way
have, because we know from studies thatwhen people feel better and resilient,
that work, they're more productive.
So there's also financial upside,of course, to the company as better
sustainable relationships withthe employees has advantages for
employee branding, and seeing theupside to expanding on the topic

(48:48):
and investing into the topic.
Next to, of course, thatthere is a challenge.
There's still open questions about it, butif we stay curious about it, I'm sure we
can also find great solutions that workfor both the employer and the employee.
I love that.
I think that's a great way to end this.
'cause I think we started with curiosity.
Ending with curiosity.
That's been a really common thread.
So, Farra, Ava and Stephanie , thankyou all so much for being here and

(49:09):
sharing your knowledge and yourinsights with us and all of our
viewers and to everyone who tuned in.
Thank you so much for takingthe time to listen to us,
discuss this important topic.
Have a great day everybody.
We continue the exploration of workplaceculture with our next episode, a
global lens to equity and inclusion.

(49:30):
Thank you for listening to Farsight Chats.
I hope that this episode is the startto future conversations you have with
your colleagues, teams, and communities.
Subscribe now to Farsight Chatswherever you get your podcasts.
And don't forget to follow us on Instagramand Facebook at Gofarsight LinkedIn
at the Farsight Agency and check outour website Gofarsight.com to know

(49:54):
more about who we are and what we do.
Thank you for answering the call todo more, do better, and do different.