July 11, 2025 • 49 mins
In this episode of FARSIGHT Chats, host Farah Bala engages in a conversation with global DEI experts Rohini Anand and William Rolack to discuss the nuances of equity and inclusion across different global contexts. The discussion covers the importance of integrating DEI into core business strategies, and the necessity of both lead and lag indicators for accountability. Various challenges and successes from around the world are compared, emphasizing the need for a global, yet locally adaptable approach. They highlight that DEI strategies must be adapted to local socio-political and cultural conditions, with examples from Europe, China, and India. The episode concludes with a call to consider intersectionality and inclusive practices in measurable ways, even in contexts with restrictive data collection laws like France.
| KEY TOPICS DISCUSSED |
UNDERSTANDING DEI GLOBALLY
- No one-size-fits-all approach: Equity, diversity, and inclusion (DEI) practices vary significantly by country and culture.
- U.S.-centric language and frameworks often don’t translate globally; inclusion efforts must reflect local histories, legal systems, and cultural values.
CONTEXT MATTERS
- Race is central in the U.S., but in other countries, other dimensions dominate (e.g., caste in India, religion in Europe, socioeconomic status in France).
- France bans race-based data collection, affecting how inclusion is measured; socioeconomic and generational data are sometimes used as proxies.
STRATEGIES THAT WORK
- Transversal approach is best: Combines global strategy with local adaptability.
- Top-down universal strategies can backfire when not culturally sensitive (e.g., pride badges in countries where LGBTQ+ identities are criminalized).
EMERGING IDENTITIES & INTERSECTIONALITY
- Cultural identities are increasingly complex, especially among multiracial or multicultural individuals.
- New cultures are forming rapidly as global mixing increases, making a rigid identity framework obsolete.
ACCOUNTABILITY & METRICS
- Use both lag and lead indicators: Track outcomes (like promotions) and behaviors (like mentorship or ERG participation).
- Link DEI goals to business strategy and executive performance reviews to ensure commitment and progress.
BUSINESS INTEGRATION
- DEI must be embedded in all business areas: talent, marketing, supplier diversity, sustainability, and customer engagement.
- Companies like Sodexo and Kroll use DEI as a business enabler, driving innovation, market access, and client relationships.
TOTAL INCLUSION MODEL
- Move beyond identity-based ERGs to include everyone (e.g., cisgender white men, multiracial individuals) through innovation teams and hybrid models.
- DEI should be altruistic and purpose-driven, not only compliance-based or reactive.
WHAT CAN THE U.S. LEARN
- Europe leads in areas like disability inclusion and women on boards, often due to quotas.
- Other cultures value family and community differently, which can inform talent strategy (e.g., engaging families in Asia as part of retention).
| SHOW NOTES |
00:00 Welcome to FARSIGHT Chats
00:29 Introduction to Today's Episode
03:29 Meet the Experts: Rohini Anand and William Rolack
05:21 Understanding Global DEI Perspectives
08:21 Challenges and Strategies in Global DEI
16:14 Local Contexts and Global Frameworks
34:46 Accountability and Metrics in DEI
40:57 Addressing Inclusion for All
48:36 Conclusion and Call to Action
| WORKS CITED |
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:01):
Welcome to FARSIGHT Chats, your Guideto Navigating Complex and Important
Conversations on Society and Culture.
I'm your host, Farah Balafounder and CEO of Farsight.
We specialize in leadership andorganizational development, focusing
on equity, diversity, and inclusionas core leadership competencies.
(00:22):
Join us in these conversationsthat aim to foster, understanding,
growth, and positive change.
On today's episode, A Global Lensto Equity and Inclusion, I am joined
by global leaders Rohini Anandand William Rolack, two uniquely
qualified professionals with anextensive set of experiences.
(00:43):
We sat down for thisconversation in the fall of 2023.
Why?
Because every other companytoday has gone global.
In our work with these clients,it's not lost on me that how the
United States talks about equity,diversity, inclusion is very
different from the rest of the world.
In fact, there is no one sizefits all methodology at all.
(01:06):
We at Farsight understand the importanceand need to differentiate between the
local and the global approach of this
.work.
So I invited some DEI experts to discussthe global aspects of this work and
how there is no generic approach to it.
It is in fact nuanced, complex,and different based on where in
(01:28):
the world one lives and works.
There is so much to takeaway from this episode.
Both Rohini and William give us realworld examples, the what, why, and how
of the successful strategies they'veimplemented, and why strategies
often fail in a global context.
As you listen in, think about this.
(01:49):
How often do you consider theimportance of emerging global
intersectional identities inour current workplace cultures?
For example, if you are working fora global company and you are on a
global team, say you are in the UnitedStates and your colleagues are in Asia.
Think about how do the laws and quotasof the Asia regional office impact
(02:12):
the dimensions of diversity that theymight prioritize and think about the
fact that it's okay that the identitiesthey prioritize might be vastly
different from the ones you do fromwhere you are in the United States.
For example, the United States, whenyou talk about equity, diversity, and
inclusion, there is a race centeredspace of it for obvious reasons.
(02:35):
It is important to name thatneither prioritization is more
important or better than the other.
They are exactly what they need tobe based on the country one lives in.
Join us on this journey oflearning and unlearning in
today's episode of FARSIGHT Chats.
(02:55):
So let's get to the topic at hand, aglobal lens to equity and inclusion.
I have to say this is a topic that Ifeel like we're tackling way too late.
Becoming more and more of a significanttopic of discussion, given the global
marketplace that we are in the way wedo business work where our communities
live, the world is getting smallerwith every day with every year and our
(03:21):
understanding of what a global lens iscan only help us be better with each
other in all of what we aim to do.
Dr. Rohini Anand and William Rolak.
Thank you so much for being here today.
am going to hand it over to youto please introduce yourselves.
Hello, everyone.
William Rolak.
I am the chief inclusion anddiversity officer for Kroll.
(03:43):
Very excited to have the conversationtoday and My background consists
of 12 years of human resources.
So my start was in the hr space wantingto make a business impact and Wanting
to really move the organization ori'll say the organism itself for
impact And had a great desire tomove into diversity and inclusion and
(04:05):
august Eighth of this year actuallymade 18 years in the space of DEI.
So I've seen a lot.
Rohini and I both have seenthe journey and the evolution.
So I'm excited today to really talkabout the evolution and where we are
and where we can make impact today.
Great.
Thank you so much, William.
And it's wonderful to beon this panel with you.
(04:28):
We go back a long ways.
Yeah.
We haven't connected in a while.
So thank you Farah forbringing us together.
Currently, I'm a published author.
I've just written my book, leadingglobal diversity, equity and inclusion.
And since then, I've been doinga lot of keynote speeches.
I'm on several boards, both forprofit and non for profit, including
(04:49):
diversity advisory boards fororganizations like Sanofi and
Charter Communication Spectrum TV.
And I do strategic advisingand coaching To executive
teams and D. R. professionals.
And prior to covert I worked at select.
So for about 18 years.
And really did a transformationto that organization and
(05:11):
to its DEI journey there.
We went from what I call class actionto best in class and really became
known as a thought leader in diversity.
If you can help us with what I think isa foundational understanding of What E.
D. I. A. D. E. I. There areso many acronyms, right?
That belonging anti racism.
(05:32):
All of these keep getting added onto how we think about this work and
these concepts acknowledging that weare here in the United States talking
about this, and wanting to gain aglobal perspective, could you walk us
through what do these concepts looklike in different parts of the world?
How is it different fromhow we see it in America?
(05:52):
Let me just start with sort of abasic definition, because the way I
define diversity is that demographicmix of people, including those from
marginalized and underrepresented groups.
Equity basically refers toeliminating those systemic barriers
that inhibit the full participationand equal access to opportunities.
And inclusion is that act ofcreating that culture, that work
(06:16):
culture, where individuals can reallyparticipate fully because those
systemic barriers have been removed.
The outcome of all that is a culture whereemployees experience a sense of belonging
and where their uniqueness is embraced.
Now, in terms of, your question abouthow it's experienced in different parts
of the world, what I've found is thatdiversity outside of the United States
(06:37):
is very often seen as a very U. S.concept and a of its history of race.
And, in Europe, and I willsay because Sodexo is a French
headquartered company, let me justgive you an example from France.
The French and Europeans in generalreally are impatient with the U. S. sort
of euphemistic language of inclusion.
They find it too squishy, too softwhile they're talking about race
(07:02):
and for historical reasons that I'lltalk about in a minute, they're very
comfortable talking about discrimination.
And, in France, they have some ofthe toughest laws on hate speech
that I think would make, FirstAmendment enthusiasts really balk.
In Europe in general, nondiscrimination, equality is much
(07:24):
easier to grasp and talk about.
Diversity is basically associatedwith, the U. S. history of race.
So let me give you the historical context.
And I go back to France, and this isin many of the European countries in
France, for example, it's forbiddento gather data on race or ethnicity
and race was actually removed fromthe French constitution in 2018.
(07:45):
And this was in response to thepersecution of the Jewish people.
When France decided to rebuilditself after World War II, they
defined themselves as indivisible.
So they don't identify people bycommunity affiliation, but rather
by what they call objective criterialike migration and citizenship.
So that The state cannot use thisidentity data for state action.
(08:09):
So I think it's important to understandthe context to really understand
how these concepts are perceivedin different parts of the world.
That gives a really good basis andperspective on the compare and contrast.
And I think one of the points that Rohinimade there is really about a lot of
times from a U. S. lens especially withDEI and inclusion and the work that has
(08:32):
been done, we sometimes feel that weare far exceeding globally in the space.
There has been a lot ofgreat work that's been done.
But there are specific pockets, especiallyaround the compliance and some of the
laws that exist that are much further thanwe are and much, much stronger, much more
(08:52):
powerful and much more impactful we are.
One thing about this space is beingable to really look at it with a
global lens and the fact that weget a chance to really infuse that
impact on the organization, at leastinfuse that ideology or philosophical
standpoint on the organization,we get a chance to use the best of
what's available for us globally.
(09:14):
To really lend itself todiversity being implemented as
a philosophy, versus a policy.
And I think that's the level ofinfluence that we get to have.
And we do this particular work atthe global level, or at least at
the executive level of organizations,because we get a chance to really begin
to create more of a blended model.
(09:34):
However, when we talk aboutjurisdictions and areas, there are
things that we have to consider,but we do get a chance to have a
blended model from a top perspective.
How we respect people around theworld, building statements in
which we garner and that we honor,no matter where we do business.
But again, notwithstanding some of theissues that we are faced within some
(09:55):
of the countries that may not embraceLGBTQ and other aspects of, religion or
religious beliefs or religious freedoms.
But being able to really melt all of thoseissues together in which we can again,
take the best of the best is really, a bigpart of this compare and contrast between
(10:16):
countries really many countries andterritories and regions around the world.
You raise a really important questionaround having this sort of global lens
global multi dimensional lens to the workthat we do so very often we get impatient
from the United States because race isreally the defining social force of this
(10:36):
country and we get impatient when we seein other parts of the world that you have.
And I'll speak from my own experiencein France, where, I would see black
people in entry level positions,but not in leadership positions.
But then I had to stop myselfand really understand the socio
political legal context in thatpart of the world and why things
(10:58):
were being done in a particular way.
And I would say the same thingfor those coming from the
outside to the United States.
Where individuals need tounderstand the history of race in
the United States to know why itis such a driving social force.
So it really cuts both ways.
But I think we've got to have moreof a global mindset and a multi
(11:20):
dimensional view of the world.
So we're not just looking at itthrough this, one dimensional lens.
You're actually reminding me somethingthat we say to our clients is the
work that we do with folk in theStates is a philosophy leading with
race but centering intersectionality.
And , that just gets toppled on itshead, depending on, where else in
(11:42):
the world we might be doing work.
Since we're talking about diversityin terms of all of these different
identities, we tend to hone in on raceand gender, sexual orientation primarily.
Could you share some insight intoother identities that might play more
of a role within the space of thatdiscrimination and migration that you
(12:02):
speak of, Rohini, whether it be caste,class, even the concept of colorism?
If those terms are even prevalent.
I was told by someone I was speakingwith in the UK, we were talking
about gender and gender expressionand was going into saying something
around the non binary community.
And she just stopped me.
She was like, I have no idea whatyou're talking about in this moment
(12:26):
and then went on to reflect thatyou all in the States are creating
vocabulary at warp speed and sometimeswe're just trying to play catch up.
Would love to hear again from y'allof what other spaces of diversity show
up based on where one is in the world.
There are so many dimensions.
I'm a student still in this space.
(12:49):
And I think what we have to cometo grips with there are defined
categorical areas of dimensions.
But we are now surpassed 8billion people on the planet.
We have new cultures emerging.
I spoke to someone yesterday who the momis two or more races, the dad is two or
more races different from the mom, and nowthe kids have an infusion of four cultures
(13:14):
that they are actively practicing.
So a big part of the work that we do andunderstanding the impact of that work.
And I think what's going to be incumbentof us is to help our colleagues
and executives in our organizationsunderstand that new cultures are forming.
So when you're going to a roomand a lot of times we are here.
(13:35):
Executives say, well,we're a B to B company.
We are business to business.
So what I'm trying to help themunderstand is when you walk into that
conference room and you sit with thatperson across the table, you are now
person to person in culture to culture.
And if you don't understand that cultureor not aware that there may be cultural
(13:55):
differences, or at least understandthat there's nuances, millions of
dollars can be lost in a card exchange.
So there's so much to helping theworld understand that these dimensions
of diversity is only growing.
They're not retracting.
And so we need to be able toembrace that as we go forward.
But really understanding thatyes, there are categorical areas
(14:17):
that people may not be aware of.
But I think it's the awareness thatthey need to understand that this person
may have a different cultural nuance ordimensions of cultures than I may have.
Just to add to that, Ithink that's great, William.
I think that race and racism areboth very universal and very specific
and the dominant and subordinategroups really differ depending
(14:39):
on where you are in the world.
think that race and racism are fluid,and they're shaped by the history.
So you really can't usea cookie cutter approach.
And what I found is that it's oftentangled up with things like ethnicity,
with religion, with caste, whichtake on more prominence than race.
And, in the U. S. raceis the driving force.
(15:01):
But in other parts of the world,race may be just one of the
several identities that divide.
And they may play a muchless prominent role.
So we expect racism to be expressed inthe manner that we're familiar with.
That's right.
Some of those nuances, aroundethnicity or discrimination against
the caste or religious minorities.
Or ethnicities in different parts ofAfrica, and, it's a very emotionally
(15:25):
laden and politically charged topicand often talked about in court.
But, the piece that you talked aboutin terms of colorism is also very local
and sometimes it's not a question ofrace, but it's a question of class.
And it's a question of cast very often.
So I think we've got to really lookat these things in a very contextual
(15:49):
way, in a very local way, and reallyunpack, because it's very complex.
Yeah.
And if we go with one particular lens,I think we're going to miss some of
these entry points in the conversation.
We really got to start withwhat are the power dynamics
in your particular location?
How does it show up?
Versus passing judgment or assuming.
(16:11):
You have a section in your book.
If I recall correctly,start local, think global.
And you already started talkingabout the importance of starting
locally and how to think about that.
Can you extend that into what isthat next space and connecting
to that global landscape?
Three ways of doing globaltransformation work.
(16:32):
One is a very universal approach,which is top down centralized.
It saves money cost and you have thesesort of commonly developed tools.
And the example that I have,there's a food delivery system.
They had the best of intentions.
And for gay pride month, they rolledout to all of their employees,
a pride badge, rainbow badge.
(16:53):
And the intention was very good.
They wanted to make alliesvisible to the organization.
They wanted to provide a safety zone forthose employees who may not be open at
work, but the employees in Egypt reallyreally were reluctant because same sex
relationships were not legal and theyhad learned to be discreet about their
(17:15):
sexual orientation for their own safetyand no one wanted to carry this burden.
So, I think, with the best of intentions,rolling out something that's consistent
universal top down may backfire.
The other is a very local approach.
The example I have there is from thisorganization called Ahol Delhaize,
which is a Dutch company, and theyhave brands in the United States
(17:36):
like Stop and Shop and Giant, etc.
And in Europe, Albert Heinzis one of the brands there.
And they had a very local strategy.
So they hire people in a five mile radius.
Yes.
The staff reflects the community andit's very appealing but implementation
can be inconsistent and there is nobest practice sharing no cross border
(17:57):
sharing the approach that I advocate forand I know that you use this approach
William is a transversal approach whereyou have a global framework you have,
that sort of guides the work that you'redoing, but you have the flexibility
and autonomy to adapt it locally.
And what happens is that the strategiesget an implementation, get adapted to
(18:20):
the local environment, but you're alsoensuring there's a consistent brand.
There's broader accountability.
And there's best practice andthere's consistency, right?
And there's best practicesharing across borders.
For example, if you think about, thefact that gender may be a focus globally,
but what other underrepresented groupgets identified is really identified
(18:42):
on a local basis, but you have thissort of roll up global strategy.
So it may be, indigenous people inAustralia, it may be Afro Brazilians
in Brazil, whatever that might be.
So I think That it's important tohave a framework metrics global brand,
but allow for that implementationat a very local level to make sure
(19:03):
that there is buy in and they know,locally people know their own culture.
But there's still a cohesive narrativethrough a transversal approach.
And William, the question for you issomething that Rohini already alluded to.
You have a very specific frameworkthat you use in the evolution of this
work and then tying it back to whatthat is for a global lens as well.
(19:26):
A lot of the work today, a lot ofthe challenges of the work today
and how we articulate our valueback to the organization and back
to the community really dependson evolving everyone else with us.
And I think the key points herethat I just want to really make
about this particular evolution andthe impact of where we are today.
(19:47):
Is that there are some difficultyin how we articulate the strategy
and how we articulate why whatwe're he just said is so important.
How do we make a structure malleable sowe can actually localize it and have a
global perspective and a global strategy.
But it really depends on howwe move executives to partner
with us as business partners toreally execute on that strategy.
(20:11):
And so a lot of this is centered aroundunderstanding and I always say, I think
a lot of the understanding if it was5 levels of understanding of so many
individuals are like level 1 is some issuearound compliance and the big E in equity.
Right?
Level 2 being, Talent and culture.
But if we want to elevate it,that's where most people get off.
(20:32):
Not just executives, buteven to analyst level.
They get off the elevator.
It's like, okay, this is great.
That's D. E. I. Or D. I. A.Or D. I. B. And that's where
the knowledge level stops.
So we now have to really do a great job.
Deed of work to really get people tounderstand that level 3 is economic value.
Everything that we touch has afinancial formula attached to it.
(20:55):
And that financial point couldbe productivity gains, cost
savings or revenue growth.
Level 4 is innovation.
How do we engage the employeesaround the world to actually
contribute to diversity inclusion?
Not only as an executivesponsor and an ally.
But how do we get them to and lean in andcontribute to the work through altruism?
How do we bring them throughtheir heart and where they want
(21:16):
to contribute, no matter whatdimension of diversity they are?
And we want to make sure that we openthose doors so they can contribute in
a multitude of ways to really get toa point of total inclusion, because we
do have a lot of systems that limit or.
Individuals may say, I don't fit themodel because I don't have my own ERG.
Things of that nature.
And then really level 4is business integration.
(21:39):
And that's really where it starts.
And we really take an approach by buildingout that particular framework and really
put into business goals through that lens.
And whether we're talking about socialresponsibility, culture, talent.
Inclusive leadership orinclusive leadership skills
and behaviors and marketplace.
And so we really have to come intothat framework of the business strategy
(22:02):
or business integration and thendetermine the strategic objectives.
That we want to lean on globally.
And again, using that frameworkthat Rohini mentioned, how do we
then use that framework, make itmalleable, and then really see
through that lens to give more valueoptimization to the business strategy.
I think you're absolutely right.
Ultimately for any of these.
(22:23):
Initiatives, DEI to be sustainable.
It really has to be part ofthe core business strategy.
It can't be separate and apart.
It can't be a check the box.
It has to be part of how business is done.
And it's part of just doing good business.
It has to be part of thescaffolding of the organization.
So I think that's very critical.
(22:43):
And , ultimately what you want isto understand your business and
know your DEI vision and to build abridge between your vision and the
business in a very practical way.
So how can DEI support the attainmentof your business objectives?
So if you're a, client facingorganization, I can give an example
(23:04):
from the company that I work for,Sodexo is a client facing organization.
Essentially, the way we built therationale for DEI or how we embedded
it in the business model was to saythat, look, let's take a look and
see how our brand as a DEI leader,because of all these things we've done
is impacting business development.
(23:25):
And I know you do the same thing, right?
Impacting business development.
And then to capture that and tomonetize it, to what extent is the
DEI team then, presenting it, in salespresentations, to what extent are
clients reaching out to Sodexo to say,help us with, with our DEI solutions.
We've seen what we're doing.
(23:45):
We like it.
How can you help with that?
To what extent is it resultingin access to new clients?
When you're meeting with D. I. andmy team would touch about 1 billion
dollars worth of business a year.
I'm not talking about D. I. stuff,but I'm talking about more business.
What the team would do is to actually.
(24:06):
Enable business growth.
So figure out what exactly your businessis and make sure you build that connection
to D. I. In terms of whether it's talentand then getting the best talent or
if it's a consumer facing business,then you know how you reaching out
to those consumer target populations.
Cosmetics company may reach outto certain groups of individuals
(24:31):
who need particular cosmeticsand develop those cosmetics.
So it's really important to ensurefor sustainability that DEI is
seen as part of, the core business.
And I would love to give an example,because right now the work that I'm
delivering at Kroll, People is onesixth of the total contribution.
(24:52):
And again, as Raheem mentioned, howdo you build it into the business
strategy and this is where I thinkwe really need to begin to help society
understand our contribution better,and that we're not just only a people
strategy that is so much more people beingone sixth of my contribution at Kroll.
The other five consist ofmarketing and communications.
(25:14):
How do we express ourselves to the world?
How do we, what's the content?
What are we saying?
What are the colors that are includedin what we do in parts of Asia?
I mean, those things have to comethrough that lens to really be effective.
You know, the sustainability componentis largely since we run, how do we engage
employees to give around the world?
(25:36):
How do we give back froma green perspective?
Those things with employeeengagement and involvement the other
areas being supplier diversity.
Making sure we have a very strongsupplier diversity strategy and utilizing
small and diverse businesses globally.
Also to that end is other two that areout there are commercial operations.
(25:56):
And as Rohini said, enablement, right?
What are we doing tobe a business enabler?
And business development, directbusiness development, being a part
and a participant in the pitch team.
And from a commercial operationsstandpoint, I'll take a step back
when we are replying to RFIs,RFQs, those requests for interest,
requests for proposals, tenders inour European in our MIA environment.
(26:21):
They're asking the question.
What are you doing for fill in the blank?
What are you doing for your environment?
What are you doing fordiversity inclusion?
What are you doing for because you havea strong network and you have a global
model aggregating that data aggregatingthe input in the contributions, whether
you're talking about Hanoi, Sydney,Austria, Bogota or LA or New York.
(26:45):
When we get a chance to aggregate thatdata and that contribution, and we're out
there competing against other companies,it becomes a differentiator for us.
It really becomes a very strongsales tool and differentiator.
And it becomes part ofthat sales narrative.
And taking that approach ofbeing a business enabler is very
important, but I wanted to givethose 6 areas of contribution.
(27:06):
That's just not normally seen in thiswork, but, for Rohini's contribution at a
Sodexo advice now to other organizations.
It is where this evolution has comeand we still have some challenges from
the visual point of how people seeDEI again from a compliance and talent
(27:26):
and culture level, but there's so muchmore great contribution to business
enablement and business integration.
You talked about it being1 6th of your role, right?
Talent being 1 6th of your role.
I think that's really tellingbecause, you know, my book, I
talk about these five principles.
So when we talk about businessintegration, I call it,
(27:46):
and it's good business too.
And this particular one I callgo deep, wide and inside out.
So really, it is about DI beingembedded within the internal
and the external ecosystem.
And you talked about that really well.
It's about, All those areas that you'reinvolved in -communications or marketing
or business development, the supplychain, but then also externally in the
(28:09):
community, etc. So, for sustainability,I think it really needs to be not
a check the box, not separate.
It needs to really beintegrated into everything.
Those examples were so helpful.
Thank you for that.
naming the wheel of what this shouldlook like be holistically effective.
(28:29):
From your perspectives and yourcareers around the world, what are
some things that the U. S. can learn?
We've talked about how U. S. is leadingin so many ways around this work.
And I'd like to flip it over towhat do we still need to learn
around this work that other partsof the world are doing really well?
We may see something phenomenal happeningin Mumbai or a Hyderabad, but to implement
(28:55):
it in a U. S. environment may be costprohibited, or it may require more
investment or the culture of the U. S.May not have a predominant, culture or
inference around that caveat being onour scale of higher level of importance.
I'll give a quick example to that.
(29:16):
We may see things that, like, oh, myGod, I would love to do this in the US.
But then it's not a cultural value.
So, a large cultural value maynot be on the same hierarchy
or scaling of importance.
So talent, when we're talking aboutManila, or the Philippines or India,
family plays such a strong role in theacquisition of talent and where their
(29:38):
family members work, because many ofthe family members are still in the
home, And being a part of the family,whereas us 18 years old, you're out of
the house and you're doing your own thingand you're not home with the family.
So, when it comes to some,talent acquisition strategies.
How do you not only reward the individual,but how do you tell that to the family?
How do you engage the familyin the hiring process?
(30:01):
And so there are some specific waysthat we do that, but that may not be
the situation in the United States,because the person is already out
independent on their own, have their ownapartment and there's a different way
to share that value or that excitement.
So there are some things and examplesout there like that exists that I would
(30:21):
love to do in the US, but it just maynot be the same value proposition
that it may have in another country.
And as we mentioned earlier complianceand legalities or legal positioning in
France, May not be here yet, but it'smuch stronger and we would love to see it.
But again, that's going to takea legal structural change in order
to implement something like thatin the U. S. But I'll pause there.
(30:43):
But just leaning in, that's some of thechallenges where our value proposition
lies as a culture in a country.
For instance, in Europe, there's alot more progress that's been made both
around women on boards, as well as aroundpeople with disabilities in the workplace.
But that's a result of the quotas inEurope, and in many parts of the world,
(31:05):
in Japan, South America, their quotasfor hiring people with disabilities.
In the United States, quotas areanathema, as we know with the recent
SCOTUS ruling on race based admissionsin higher education, but I think
in other parts of the world, thelaws lead a lot of the DEI efforts.
(31:26):
In the United States, it's usuallycorporate America that leads DEI
efforts, which is why this work isso important and it's really critical
that we do it in corporate America.
Many parts of the world are far moreadvanced than we are around people
with disabilities, but there'sa contextual reason for that.
Yeah.
And you're right about the family piece.
(31:48):
It's very context specific.
I have these two examples.
One is, when I visited China,there's a hot pot chain in China
where the bonus for the employeesactually send directly to the family.
And then the family is invitedinto this event, et cetera.
And the reason is that there's somuch a churn around talent, as you
(32:10):
mentioned, that they want the family.
The family weighs in on the decisionof where the, their child works.
This is an adult grown person, butthey want the family to buy in so
that they can retain the talent.
Now, From a Western lens, thiswould be completely unacceptable.
It would be, basically confidentialand you're trampling on the individual
(32:33):
rights of an adult person, et cetera,but viewed from a different lens.
This is something that is atalent strategy, as you mentioned.
I remember very clearly when I hadgone to India and I grew up in India.
So when I went to India to do this work,the first time I remember sitting with, a
bunch of mid level women in mid managementand , I went thinking that this is, Great.
(32:59):
I'm going to talk to them aboutmentoring, about leadership development,
and I'm, going on talking to themabout the stuff and just complete
disconnect, met with these blank staresand it was when I paused and asked
them, what is it that the company cando to help you advance their careers?
They generally started talkingabout living in multigenerational
families, joint families.
(33:19):
And how they couldn't stay late to work,they couldn't work on special projects
because they had to go home to takecare of their kids and family and I
had completely forgotten that dynamic.
So here I was, I thought I knew, Imean, I'd grown up in India, but I
had not, focused on one aspect of myshared identity, forgetting all those
other identities that these women had.
(33:39):
So, I asked them what could be doneand they came up with a solution.
They said, let's have a recognition dayand invite our extended families to come.
And so the families came, theywere proud of these women.
And did it change the dynamic at home?
Maybe slightly so that theycould, stay late once in a way.
But I think that role, is so criticaland that's why it's so important,
(34:03):
to contextualize our work within.
Whatever the history andculture of the place is.
One of the main things that I'mgetting from what both of you said
is connecting and, the organizationalvalue to cultural value, to societal
value based on where you are.
But I do think there is something for usas U. S. based companies to think about
(34:24):
because we are a land of immigrants.
And the nuances of cultural values canplay such a significant role in how
one shows up the level of engagement,the level of value add that employees
can bring back to the company.
At Farsight, one of our foundationalbits, like any work we do has
accountability systems built in.
(34:46):
So given this topic, I'd love to askyou your thoughts on how does 1 stay
accountable through metrics and data , inmaking sure that there is a cohesive,
wholesome alignment in the goals ofwhat a global D. E. I strategy is and
how do we stay cognizant to the factthat, yeah, we are moving towards it or
(35:08):
there have been missed opportunities.
And how do you measure intersectionalityand , utilize that data?
So the way I look at metrics andaccountability, when I think about
DEI metrics, I look at it in terms ofwhat I call lead and lag indicators.
And for me, the lag indicators arethe outcomes that you're looking for.
They're the ones that, like representationlike promotion, hiring, et cetera.
(35:34):
But you have to have leadindicators, which are those actions
and behaviors that are going toget you to those lag indicators.
They've done consistently.
So when you're measuring it's important toreally have both lead and lag indicators.
And particularly for those that arefrom the United States, in light of the
current decision by the Supreme Courton affirmative race based decisions and
(35:57):
admissions in higher education and theconcern about the trickle down impact
in corporations, I think it's reallyimportant to not just have those lag
indicators, but to have a balance of both.
So what you're doing is then toincent people with changing the
culture and behaviors and actions.
And, those could be things likesponsoring ERGs, mentoring they could
(36:21):
be your engagement scores for differentpopulations and that indicates, your
inclusive culture around accountability.
So metrics agreed.
What gets measured gets done.
And we know that, but I thinkit's important to hold teams
and leaders accountable andthen multiple ways of doing it.
It can be 1 of those competencies thatbaked into your performance review process
(36:45):
that you held individually to that.
And that's obviously oftentimes,you talk about financial outcomes
and you talk about leadershipcompetencies and you bake it into that.
And that's linked to either promotionor the financial compensation.
But, when we were at Sodexo, weactually did something different.
And this was a huge commitmentthat was made by the CEO.
(37:06):
What he did was he set aside thispool of money and he said, I'm going
to pay this out regardless of thefinancial performance of the company.
Yeah.
It's very often percentage is tiedto how the company does financially.
And the reason he did that wasbecause he said, I don't want the
journey to stop start depending onthe finances of the organization.
So if you make your diversityobjectives, they're very clearly
(37:29):
laid out both the lead and lag.
You get your bonus.
So as I said, there's multiple ways.
I think it can be linkedto the performance review.
It can be linked to money.
It can be linked to yourpromotion, whatever it is.
I think it's important to hold teamsaccountable and to have that conversation.
When we set out on those strategicpillars, common five that I'll say,
(37:52):
but I'll just give a recap, inclusiveleadership, and Culture work for
social responsibility marketplace.
While I was at a DECO and participatingin the effort there and then you're
going to hear me say a word that he saidearlier, our CEO leaning in and being
a champion began to actually infusea status with all of the C suite and
(38:14):
all of the business unit presidents.
And there were 7 C suite membersand 15 business unit presidents.
Well, that CEO mantra is that, youknow what, we're going to embed the
report out on what you're doing forDEI in your quarterly business review.
So it became a part of thataccountability structure.
So whenever they're reporting out ontheir P& L, staff log, all of the things
(38:40):
that are important to the business.
And DEI is on that agenda forthe report out back to the North
American CEO and what he didto even lever up another night.
He said 2 of these aregoing to be non negotiable.
I must see advancement in these 2 areas.
I must see advancement in talent.
And I need to see advancementin inclusive leadership.
(39:03):
Where do you step in to lead the effort?
And so each person individually,again, through altruism, had
an opportunity to step up.
If it was for people with disabilities,if it was for veterans, if it was
for women, if it was for Asians,whatever that was that they needed
to stand in their place and really astrong purpose to lead the DEI effort,
(39:24):
those were the two non negotiables.
And so We see a lot of this infusionof accountability being tied to the CEO
kind of laying down a law to say, here'swhere I expect those sound bites to be.
And so it was a joint process, right?
So everything that was on theiridentifiable goals or in that structure,
because each business unit president hada strategy defined for their business unit
(39:49):
based on Things they wanted to accomplishand areas of deficiency in which we
identified, which could be levered upor diversity could create more value.
And again, it was a partnership.
So, when they reported out and theyhad their heat mapping, they're kind
of red, yellow, green to where theywere contributing in those areas.
On a quarterly basis, we were able toassess where they were and then improve
(40:13):
on that metric as we move forward.
Nick could have been anythingcould have been promotions
talent again, their contribution.
They had to list wherethey're contributing, whether
it's internal or external.
So it was really a good modelto drive accountability.
Rohini, it was tied to theoverall performance and metric,
not the specific metric.
(40:33):
So I love the examples here whereyou have a specific tie to the
metric and then one specific examplewhere it's built into their overall
responsibility as a senior leader.
And for that to happen in both cases,the common piece is it has to be called
out at a strategic level, which is whywhen they did the business reviews,
they report out on it, because it hasto be a strategic lever of the business.
(40:56):
I
have a couple of questionsfrom our registrants.
It says, Not all whitepeople come from privilege.
In what respects should Caucasiansbe taken into account in regard
to inclusion and diversity?
I sometimes see themdiscriminated against also.
The feeling of discrimination orreal discrimination, unfortunately,
(41:17):
happens by design because it's goingto be perceived a lot of times.
I like to lead with the fact that we havearrived at a point of total inclusion.
We understand that ifwe're only leading through.
And again, this is my professionalopinion that the model is flawed
because we can't create enough of.
Resource groups to acknowledge all peoplein all dimensions in any organization.
(41:41):
All right, so we can't create 100 andgoes back to Murray's point to around
intersectionality because when you haveintersectionality, someone is not going
to choose when my mom's Asian and mydad's Hispanic, and you got two resource
groups you know, it's their dynamicand how they grew up in the same thing
if you're white, and you don't have anERG that fits your background, which is
(42:01):
most times, cisgender white males areeliminated from conversations unless
they ally into active resource group.
In order to, ensure that all dimensionsof diversity are represented, there
should be some form of a hybrid model.
And what I mean by hybrid model, thereis a employee engagement unit or a
council or they call different things.
(42:23):
And then you also have ERGs thatrepresent underrepresentation.
But making a call for champions to jointhe effort as a full person, all their
dimensions, all their intersectionalitypoints, and have them contribute to
these efforts in a meaningful waycontributing to those strategic pillars,
(42:44):
whereas the cultural groups will havea set of defined objectives We call
them innovation teams, and so there'san innovation team for culture, talent,
social responsibility, and marketplace.
So, as a cisgender white male,that individual can get engaged and
involved as a total participant,as an altruistic participant.
(43:08):
And not an ally or an executivesponsor or a business partner.
So really by design and again, pushingthis point of total inclusion, giving
them a platform, giving everybodya platform to equally weigh in.
And so by design, when you onlyhave the resource networks and
people have to ally in, theyfeel outside and it's not just.
(43:31):
White, it could be someonewho's two or more races.
It's just wherever that racial orgender or community disposition lies,
if there's not an ERG for it, thensomeone feels outside of the frame.
By design, again, there's ways now inwhich we can make it a point of total
inclusion, which leans into more altruismthan only leaning in through allyship.
(43:54):
When you talk about the answer thisspecific question, it is about everybody,
you know, is, definitely about everyone.
I think that needs need to representas many different groups as possible.
So, in addition to, your classicones in the United States.
(44:15):
It's, Hispanic, Asian, AfricanAmerican, disabilities, LGBTQ.
Think about how you canengage the white men.
Is it a veterans?
Is it a disabilities?
Is it an intergenerational ERG?
What are those different waysto really engage our white men?
I think, when you launch amentoring initiative, Make
sure it's open to everyone.
You can oversample the underrepresentedgroups, but make sure that
(44:39):
everyone has an opportunity there.
And understand the what's in itfor me, because this is not just
about underrepresented groups.
What's in it for the whitemale in the organization?
They want to be part of the solution also.
A lot of white maleslook at legacy issues.
They want to be allies.
So make sure that you appeal to all ofthose pieces and including white men.
(45:00):
And then when we talked about the businesspiece, if you say that, this is about
the business and growing the business,it's going to benefit everyone, including
the Caucasians in the organization.
So they need to feel likethey're part of solution.
I think that's reallyimportant, but going back to.
The comment that you made Farah thequestion that , not all white people
come from a place of privilege.
(45:20):
That's true, but there's oneprivilege all white people come
from, and that is the skin color.
That's something that's universal.
It's around the world.
It can't be changed.
Of course, there are other aspects.
When you look at an intersection ofa human being, it may be religion,
it may be socioeconomics, it maybe education level, whatever it is.
(45:41):
And yes, of course, white peopleare also discriminated against.
So what I would say is that the way Iapproach this is, at the end of the
day, when you look at talent decisions.
You want to hire the best qualifiedcandidate, but the point here
is to open your talent pool.
So you really are accessing a wide pool oftalent and then ultimately hiring the best
(46:04):
qualified person, regardless of whetherit's a male or female, white person
or a person of color, whatever it is.
So I think.
It's really important.
It's very important because power isstill held by white people in most
parts of the world in most industries.
So it's very important that, white peoplebe part of the solution that they see
(46:27):
themselves as part of the solution thatthey see that this also benefits them.
So I think that's extremely important.
We have a question here.
That says one of the identified challengesto minorities inclusion, notably in
French companies, turn out to be thelack of KPIs to measure inclusion.
So this person wants to know what couldpossible solutions to such a challenge be?
(46:51):
You already talked about thelaws, and bearing in mind that
the French legislation prohibitscollection of data in relation with
ethnicity, religious beliefs, etc.
You're absolutely right.
It is a big challenge.
You can visibly see things.
So if you're in an office, you can seewho's at what level in an organization.
So I think, that's 1, but thereis an organization and there
(47:14):
are companies or organizationsnow that are doing this work.
There's a nonprofit called club.
21st century club, and what they'redoing is to collect data based on 2
things, 1 is on the place of birthof your parents and your grandparents.
(47:35):
So they can see whether, your firstor second generation of immigrants,
so that is a telling piece.
And the other thing they're gatheringinformation on is the socioeconomics
of your parents or grandparents.
Now, what's interesting is, thisis in France, and in the United
States, obviously, gathering dataon race, is acceptable France.
It's not.
(47:56):
But what's acceptable in Franceis to gather socioeconomic data
of your parents and grandparents,which is a no in the United States.
So a lot of the US members are saying,how can you ask these questions?
This is confidential and someonedescribed it as, this is a,
different kind of reality inthe 2 places, but, look them up.
(48:17):
They're doing some good work.
Thank you for the work that you'redoing to, as you said enable all
of us to be students in this work.
It isn't easy.
It always takes a village.
And thank you for joining ustoday and sharing your wisdom.
This was so juicy.
There were so many great nuggets.
Thank you for making it practical for us.
Thank you for listening to FARSIGHT Chats.
(48:39):
I hope that this conversation is thestart to future ones you have with your
colleagues, teams, and communities.
If you have enjoyed thispodcast , please like and comment
and tell us your thoughts.
Give us your feedback.
The more comments we get, the more likeswe get, that is what's going to help
us reach a wider audience, and thatis our mission: to build and widen our
(49:03):
collective learning so that we can indeeddo more, do better and do different.
Thank you so much for your listenership.
We are gonna be back withmore episodes very soon.
In the meantime, don't forget to followus on Instagram and Facebook at Go Far
Site LinkedIn at the Farsight Agency andcheck out our website Gofarsight.com to
(49:23):
know more about who we are and what we do.
Welcome to FARSIGHT Chats, your Guideto Navigating Complex and Important
Conversations on Society and Culture.
I'm your host, Farah Balafounder and CEO of Farsight.
We specialize in leadership andorganizational development, focusing
on equity, diversity, and inclusionas core leadership competencies.
(00:22):
Join us in these conversationsthat aim to foster, understanding,
growth, and positive change.
On today's episode, A Global Lensto Equity and Inclusion, I am joined
by global leaders Rohini Anandand William Rolack, two uniquely
qualified professionals with anextensive set of experiences.
(00:43):
We sat down for thisconversation in the fall of 2023.
Why?
Because every other companytoday has gone global.
In our work with these clients,it's not lost on me that how the
United States talks about equity,diversity, inclusion is very
different from the rest of the world.
In fact, there is no one sizefits all methodology at all.
(01:06):
We at Farsight understand the importanceand need to differentiate between the
local and the global approach of this
.work.
So I invited some DEI experts to discussthe global aspects of this work and
how there is no generic approach to it.
It is in fact nuanced, complex,and different based on where in
(01:28):
the world one lives and works.
There is so much to takeaway from this episode.
Both Rohini and William give us realworld examples, the what, why, and how
of the successful strategies they'veimplemented, and why strategies
often fail in a global context.
As you listen in, think about this.
(01:49):
How often do you consider theimportance of emerging global
intersectional identities inour current workplace cultures?
For example, if you are working fora global company and you are on a
global team, say you are in the UnitedStates and your colleagues are in Asia.
Think about how do the laws and quotasof the Asia regional office impact
(02:12):
the dimensions of diversity that theymight prioritize and think about the
fact that it's okay that the identitiesthey prioritize might be vastly
different from the ones you do fromwhere you are in the United States.
For example, the United States, whenyou talk about equity, diversity, and
inclusion, there is a race centeredspace of it for obvious reasons.
(02:35):
It is important to name thatneither prioritization is more
important or better than the other.
They are exactly what they need tobe based on the country one lives in.
Join us on this journey oflearning and unlearning in
today's episode of FARSIGHT Chats.
(02:55):
So let's get to the topic at hand, aglobal lens to equity and inclusion.
I have to say this is a topic that Ifeel like we're tackling way too late.
Becoming more and more of a significanttopic of discussion, given the global
marketplace that we are in the way wedo business work where our communities
live, the world is getting smallerwith every day with every year and our
(03:21):
understanding of what a global lens iscan only help us be better with each
other in all of what we aim to do.
Dr. Rohini Anand and William Rolak.
Thank you so much for being here today.
am going to hand it over to youto please introduce yourselves.
Hello, everyone.
William Rolak.
I am the chief inclusion anddiversity officer for Kroll.
(03:43):
Very excited to have the conversationtoday and My background consists
of 12 years of human resources.
So my start was in the hr space wantingto make a business impact and Wanting
to really move the organization ori'll say the organism itself for
impact And had a great desire tomove into diversity and inclusion and
(04:05):
august Eighth of this year actuallymade 18 years in the space of DEI.
So I've seen a lot.
Rohini and I both have seenthe journey and the evolution.
So I'm excited today to really talkabout the evolution and where we are
and where we can make impact today.
Great.
Thank you so much, William.
And it's wonderful to beon this panel with you.
(04:28):
We go back a long ways.
Yeah.
We haven't connected in a while.
So thank you Farah forbringing us together.
Currently, I'm a published author.
I've just written my book, leadingglobal diversity, equity and inclusion.
And since then, I've been doinga lot of keynote speeches.
I'm on several boards, both forprofit and non for profit, including
(04:49):
diversity advisory boards fororganizations like Sanofi and
Charter Communication Spectrum TV.
And I do strategic advisingand coaching To executive
teams and D. R. professionals.
And prior to covert I worked at select.
So for about 18 years.
And really did a transformationto that organization and
(05:11):
to its DEI journey there.
We went from what I call class actionto best in class and really became
known as a thought leader in diversity.
If you can help us with what I think isa foundational understanding of What E.
D. I. A. D. E. I. There areso many acronyms, right?
That belonging anti racism.
(05:32):
All of these keep getting added onto how we think about this work and
these concepts acknowledging that weare here in the United States talking
about this, and wanting to gain aglobal perspective, could you walk us
through what do these concepts looklike in different parts of the world?
How is it different fromhow we see it in America?
(05:52):
Let me just start with sort of abasic definition, because the way I
define diversity is that demographicmix of people, including those from
marginalized and underrepresented groups.
Equity basically refers toeliminating those systemic barriers
that inhibit the full participationand equal access to opportunities.
And inclusion is that act ofcreating that culture, that work
(06:16):
culture, where individuals can reallyparticipate fully because those
systemic barriers have been removed.
The outcome of all that is a culture whereemployees experience a sense of belonging
and where their uniqueness is embraced.
Now, in terms of, your question abouthow it's experienced in different parts
of the world, what I've found is thatdiversity outside of the United States
(06:37):
is very often seen as a very U. S.concept and a of its history of race.
And, in Europe, and I willsay because Sodexo is a French
headquartered company, let me justgive you an example from France.
The French and Europeans in generalreally are impatient with the U. S. sort
of euphemistic language of inclusion.
They find it too squishy, too softwhile they're talking about race
(07:02):
and for historical reasons that I'lltalk about in a minute, they're very
comfortable talking about discrimination.
And, in France, they have some ofthe toughest laws on hate speech
that I think would make, FirstAmendment enthusiasts really balk.
In Europe in general, nondiscrimination, equality is much
(07:24):
easier to grasp and talk about.
Diversity is basically associatedwith, the U. S. history of race.
So let me give you the historical context.
And I go back to France, and this isin many of the European countries in
France, for example, it's forbiddento gather data on race or ethnicity
and race was actually removed fromthe French constitution in 2018.
(07:45):
And this was in response to thepersecution of the Jewish people.
When France decided to rebuilditself after World War II, they
defined themselves as indivisible.
So they don't identify people bycommunity affiliation, but rather
by what they call objective criterialike migration and citizenship.
So that The state cannot use thisidentity data for state action.
(08:09):
So I think it's important to understandthe context to really understand
how these concepts are perceivedin different parts of the world.
That gives a really good basis andperspective on the compare and contrast.
And I think one of the points that Rohinimade there is really about a lot of
times from a U. S. lens especially withDEI and inclusion and the work that has
(08:32):
been done, we sometimes feel that weare far exceeding globally in the space.
There has been a lot ofgreat work that's been done.
But there are specific pockets, especiallyaround the compliance and some of the
laws that exist that are much further thanwe are and much, much stronger, much more
(08:52):
powerful and much more impactful we are.
One thing about this space is beingable to really look at it with a
global lens and the fact that weget a chance to really infuse that
impact on the organization, at leastinfuse that ideology or philosophical
standpoint on the organization,we get a chance to use the best of
what's available for us globally.
(09:14):
To really lend itself todiversity being implemented as
a philosophy, versus a policy.
And I think that's the level ofinfluence that we get to have.
And we do this particular work atthe global level, or at least at
the executive level of organizations,because we get a chance to really begin
to create more of a blended model.
(09:34):
However, when we talk aboutjurisdictions and areas, there are
things that we have to consider,but we do get a chance to have a
blended model from a top perspective.
How we respect people around theworld, building statements in
which we garner and that we honor,no matter where we do business.
But again, notwithstanding some of theissues that we are faced within some
(09:55):
of the countries that may not embraceLGBTQ and other aspects of, religion or
religious beliefs or religious freedoms.
But being able to really melt all of thoseissues together in which we can again,
take the best of the best is really, a bigpart of this compare and contrast between
(10:16):
countries really many countries andterritories and regions around the world.
You raise a really important questionaround having this sort of global lens
global multi dimensional lens to the workthat we do so very often we get impatient
from the United States because race isreally the defining social force of this
(10:36):
country and we get impatient when we seein other parts of the world that you have.
And I'll speak from my own experiencein France, where, I would see black
people in entry level positions,but not in leadership positions.
But then I had to stop myselfand really understand the socio
political legal context in thatpart of the world and why things
(10:58):
were being done in a particular way.
And I would say the same thingfor those coming from the
outside to the United States.
Where individuals need tounderstand the history of race in
the United States to know why itis such a driving social force.
So it really cuts both ways.
But I think we've got to have moreof a global mindset and a multi
(11:20):
dimensional view of the world.
So we're not just looking at itthrough this, one dimensional lens.
You're actually reminding me somethingthat we say to our clients is the
work that we do with folk in theStates is a philosophy leading with
race but centering intersectionality.
And , that just gets toppled on itshead, depending on, where else in
(11:42):
the world we might be doing work.
Since we're talking about diversityin terms of all of these different
identities, we tend to hone in on raceand gender, sexual orientation primarily.
Could you share some insight intoother identities that might play more
of a role within the space of thatdiscrimination and migration that you
(12:02):
speak of, Rohini, whether it be caste,class, even the concept of colorism?
If those terms are even prevalent.
I was told by someone I was speakingwith in the UK, we were talking
about gender and gender expressionand was going into saying something
around the non binary community.
And she just stopped me.
She was like, I have no idea whatyou're talking about in this moment
(12:26):
and then went on to reflect thatyou all in the States are creating
vocabulary at warp speed and sometimeswe're just trying to play catch up.
Would love to hear again from y'allof what other spaces of diversity show
up based on where one is in the world.
There are so many dimensions.
I'm a student still in this space.
(12:49):
And I think what we have to cometo grips with there are defined
categorical areas of dimensions.
But we are now surpassed 8billion people on the planet.
We have new cultures emerging.
I spoke to someone yesterday who the momis two or more races, the dad is two or
more races different from the mom, and nowthe kids have an infusion of four cultures
(13:14):
that they are actively practicing.
So a big part of the work that we do andunderstanding the impact of that work.
And I think what's going to be incumbentof us is to help our colleagues
and executives in our organizationsunderstand that new cultures are forming.
So when you're going to a roomand a lot of times we are here.
(13:35):
Executives say, well,we're a B to B company.
We are business to business.
So what I'm trying to help themunderstand is when you walk into that
conference room and you sit with thatperson across the table, you are now
person to person in culture to culture.
And if you don't understand that cultureor not aware that there may be cultural
(13:55):
differences, or at least understandthat there's nuances, millions of
dollars can be lost in a card exchange.
So there's so much to helping theworld understand that these dimensions
of diversity is only growing.
They're not retracting.
And so we need to be able toembrace that as we go forward.
But really understanding thatyes, there are categorical areas
(14:17):
that people may not be aware of.
But I think it's the awareness thatthey need to understand that this person
may have a different cultural nuance ordimensions of cultures than I may have.
Just to add to that, Ithink that's great, William.
I think that race and racism areboth very universal and very specific
and the dominant and subordinategroups really differ depending
(14:39):
on where you are in the world.
think that race and racism are fluid,and they're shaped by the history.
So you really can't usea cookie cutter approach.
And what I found is that it's oftentangled up with things like ethnicity,
with religion, with caste, whichtake on more prominence than race.
And, in the U. S. raceis the driving force.
(15:01):
But in other parts of the world,race may be just one of the
several identities that divide.
And they may play a muchless prominent role.
So we expect racism to be expressed inthe manner that we're familiar with.
That's right.
Some of those nuances, aroundethnicity or discrimination against
the caste or religious minorities.
Or ethnicities in different parts ofAfrica, and, it's a very emotionally
(15:25):
laden and politically charged topicand often talked about in court.
But, the piece that you talked aboutin terms of colorism is also very local
and sometimes it's not a question ofrace, but it's a question of class.
And it's a question of cast very often.
So I think we've got to really lookat these things in a very contextual
(15:49):
way, in a very local way, and reallyunpack, because it's very complex.
Yeah.
And if we go with one particular lens,I think we're going to miss some of
these entry points in the conversation.
We really got to start withwhat are the power dynamics
in your particular location?
How does it show up?
Versus passing judgment or assuming.
(16:11):
You have a section in your book.
If I recall correctly,start local, think global.
And you already started talkingabout the importance of starting
locally and how to think about that.
Can you extend that into what isthat next space and connecting
to that global landscape?
Three ways of doing globaltransformation work.
(16:32):
One is a very universal approach,which is top down centralized.
It saves money cost and you have thesesort of commonly developed tools.
And the example that I have,there's a food delivery system.
They had the best of intentions.
And for gay pride month, they rolledout to all of their employees,
a pride badge, rainbow badge.
(16:53):
And the intention was very good.
They wanted to make alliesvisible to the organization.
They wanted to provide a safety zone forthose employees who may not be open at
work, but the employees in Egypt reallyreally were reluctant because same sex
relationships were not legal and theyhad learned to be discreet about their
(17:15):
sexual orientation for their own safetyand no one wanted to carry this burden.
So, I think, with the best of intentions,rolling out something that's consistent
universal top down may backfire.
The other is a very local approach.
The example I have there is from thisorganization called Ahol Delhaize,
which is a Dutch company, and theyhave brands in the United States
(17:36):
like Stop and Shop and Giant, etc.
And in Europe, Albert Heinzis one of the brands there.
And they had a very local strategy.
So they hire people in a five mile radius.
Yes.
The staff reflects the community andit's very appealing but implementation
can be inconsistent and there is nobest practice sharing no cross border
(17:57):
sharing the approach that I advocate forand I know that you use this approach
William is a transversal approach whereyou have a global framework you have,
that sort of guides the work that you'redoing, but you have the flexibility
and autonomy to adapt it locally.
And what happens is that the strategiesget an implementation, get adapted to
(18:20):
the local environment, but you're alsoensuring there's a consistent brand.
There's broader accountability.
And there's best practice andthere's consistency, right?
And there's best practicesharing across borders.
For example, if you think about, thefact that gender may be a focus globally,
but what other underrepresented groupgets identified is really identified
(18:42):
on a local basis, but you have thissort of roll up global strategy.
So it may be, indigenous people inAustralia, it may be Afro Brazilians
in Brazil, whatever that might be.
So I think That it's important tohave a framework metrics global brand,
but allow for that implementationat a very local level to make sure
(19:03):
that there is buy in and they know,locally people know their own culture.
But there's still a cohesive narrativethrough a transversal approach.
And William, the question for you issomething that Rohini already alluded to.
You have a very specific frameworkthat you use in the evolution of this
work and then tying it back to whatthat is for a global lens as well.
(19:26):
A lot of the work today, a lot ofthe challenges of the work today
and how we articulate our valueback to the organization and back
to the community really dependson evolving everyone else with us.
And I think the key points herethat I just want to really make
about this particular evolution andthe impact of where we are today.
(19:47):
Is that there are some difficultyin how we articulate the strategy
and how we articulate why whatwe're he just said is so important.
How do we make a structure malleable sowe can actually localize it and have a
global perspective and a global strategy.
But it really depends on howwe move executives to partner
with us as business partners toreally execute on that strategy.
(20:11):
And so a lot of this is centered aroundunderstanding and I always say, I think
a lot of the understanding if it was5 levels of understanding of so many
individuals are like level 1 is some issuearound compliance and the big E in equity.
Right?
Level 2 being, Talent and culture.
But if we want to elevate it,that's where most people get off.
(20:32):
Not just executives, buteven to analyst level.
They get off the elevator.
It's like, okay, this is great.
That's D. E. I. Or D. I. A.Or D. I. B. And that's where
the knowledge level stops.
So we now have to really do a great job.
Deed of work to really get people tounderstand that level 3 is economic value.
Everything that we touch has afinancial formula attached to it.
(20:55):
And that financial point couldbe productivity gains, cost
savings or revenue growth.
Level 4 is innovation.
How do we engage the employeesaround the world to actually
contribute to diversity inclusion?
Not only as an executivesponsor and an ally.
But how do we get them to and lean in andcontribute to the work through altruism?
How do we bring them throughtheir heart and where they want
(21:16):
to contribute, no matter whatdimension of diversity they are?
And we want to make sure that we openthose doors so they can contribute in
a multitude of ways to really get toa point of total inclusion, because we
do have a lot of systems that limit or.
Individuals may say, I don't fit themodel because I don't have my own ERG.
Things of that nature.
And then really level 4is business integration.
(21:39):
And that's really where it starts.
And we really take an approach by buildingout that particular framework and really
put into business goals through that lens.
And whether we're talking about socialresponsibility, culture, talent.
Inclusive leadership orinclusive leadership skills
and behaviors and marketplace.
And so we really have to come intothat framework of the business strategy
(22:02):
or business integration and thendetermine the strategic objectives.
That we want to lean on globally.
And again, using that frameworkthat Rohini mentioned, how do we
then use that framework, make itmalleable, and then really see
through that lens to give more valueoptimization to the business strategy.
I think you're absolutely right.
Ultimately for any of these.
(22:23):
Initiatives, DEI to be sustainable.
It really has to be part ofthe core business strategy.
It can't be separate and apart.
It can't be a check the box.
It has to be part of how business is done.
And it's part of just doing good business.
It has to be part of thescaffolding of the organization.
So I think that's very critical.
(22:43):
And , ultimately what you want isto understand your business and
know your DEI vision and to build abridge between your vision and the
business in a very practical way.
So how can DEI support the attainmentof your business objectives?
So if you're a, client facingorganization, I can give an example
(23:04):
from the company that I work for,Sodexo is a client facing organization.
Essentially, the way we built therationale for DEI or how we embedded
it in the business model was to saythat, look, let's take a look and
see how our brand as a DEI leader,because of all these things we've done
is impacting business development.
(23:25):
And I know you do the same thing, right?
Impacting business development.
And then to capture that and tomonetize it, to what extent is the
DEI team then, presenting it, in salespresentations, to what extent are
clients reaching out to Sodexo to say,help us with, with our DEI solutions.
We've seen what we're doing.
(23:45):
We like it.
How can you help with that?
To what extent is it resultingin access to new clients?
When you're meeting with D. I. andmy team would touch about 1 billion
dollars worth of business a year.
I'm not talking about D. I. stuff,but I'm talking about more business.
What the team would do is to actually.
(24:06):
Enable business growth.
So figure out what exactly your businessis and make sure you build that connection
to D. I. In terms of whether it's talentand then getting the best talent or
if it's a consumer facing business,then you know how you reaching out
to those consumer target populations.
Cosmetics company may reach outto certain groups of individuals
(24:31):
who need particular cosmeticsand develop those cosmetics.
So it's really important to ensurefor sustainability that DEI is
seen as part of, the core business.
And I would love to give an example,because right now the work that I'm
delivering at Kroll, People is onesixth of the total contribution.
(24:52):
And again, as Raheem mentioned, howdo you build it into the business
strategy and this is where I thinkwe really need to begin to help society
understand our contribution better,and that we're not just only a people
strategy that is so much more people beingone sixth of my contribution at Kroll.
The other five consist ofmarketing and communications.
(25:14):
How do we express ourselves to the world?
How do we, what's the content?
What are we saying?
What are the colors that are includedin what we do in parts of Asia?
I mean, those things have to comethrough that lens to really be effective.
You know, the sustainability componentis largely since we run, how do we engage
employees to give around the world?
(25:36):
How do we give back froma green perspective?
Those things with employeeengagement and involvement the other
areas being supplier diversity.
Making sure we have a very strongsupplier diversity strategy and utilizing
small and diverse businesses globally.
Also to that end is other two that areout there are commercial operations.
(25:56):
And as Rohini said, enablement, right?
What are we doing tobe a business enabler?
And business development, directbusiness development, being a part
and a participant in the pitch team.
And from a commercial operationsstandpoint, I'll take a step back
when we are replying to RFIs,RFQs, those requests for interest,
requests for proposals, tenders inour European in our MIA environment.
(26:21):
They're asking the question.
What are you doing for fill in the blank?
What are you doing for your environment?
What are you doing fordiversity inclusion?
What are you doing for because you havea strong network and you have a global
model aggregating that data aggregatingthe input in the contributions, whether
you're talking about Hanoi, Sydney,Austria, Bogota or LA or New York.
(26:45):
When we get a chance to aggregate thatdata and that contribution, and we're out
there competing against other companies,it becomes a differentiator for us.
It really becomes a very strongsales tool and differentiator.
And it becomes part ofthat sales narrative.
And taking that approach ofbeing a business enabler is very
important, but I wanted to givethose 6 areas of contribution.
(27:06):
That's just not normally seen in thiswork, but, for Rohini's contribution at a
Sodexo advice now to other organizations.
It is where this evolution has comeand we still have some challenges from
the visual point of how people seeDEI again from a compliance and talent
(27:26):
and culture level, but there's so muchmore great contribution to business
enablement and business integration.
You talked about it being1 6th of your role, right?
Talent being 1 6th of your role.
I think that's really tellingbecause, you know, my book, I
talk about these five principles.
So when we talk about businessintegration, I call it,
(27:46):
and it's good business too.
And this particular one I callgo deep, wide and inside out.
So really, it is about DI beingembedded within the internal
and the external ecosystem.
And you talked about that really well.
It's about, All those areas that you'reinvolved in -communications or marketing
or business development, the supplychain, but then also externally in the
(28:09):
community, etc. So, for sustainability,I think it really needs to be not
a check the box, not separate.
It needs to really beintegrated into everything.
Those examples were so helpful.
Thank you for that.
naming the wheel of what this shouldlook like be holistically effective.
(28:29):
From your perspectives and yourcareers around the world, what are
some things that the U. S. can learn?
We've talked about how U. S. is leadingin so many ways around this work.
And I'd like to flip it over towhat do we still need to learn
around this work that other partsof the world are doing really well?
We may see something phenomenal happeningin Mumbai or a Hyderabad, but to implement
(28:55):
it in a U. S. environment may be costprohibited, or it may require more
investment or the culture of the U. S.May not have a predominant, culture or
inference around that caveat being onour scale of higher level of importance.
I'll give a quick example to that.
(29:16):
We may see things that, like, oh, myGod, I would love to do this in the US.
But then it's not a cultural value.
So, a large cultural value maynot be on the same hierarchy
or scaling of importance.
So talent, when we're talking aboutManila, or the Philippines or India,
family plays such a strong role in theacquisition of talent and where their
(29:38):
family members work, because many ofthe family members are still in the
home, And being a part of the family,whereas us 18 years old, you're out of
the house and you're doing your own thingand you're not home with the family.
So, when it comes to some,talent acquisition strategies.
How do you not only reward the individual,but how do you tell that to the family?
How do you engage the familyin the hiring process?
(30:01):
And so there are some specific waysthat we do that, but that may not be
the situation in the United States,because the person is already out
independent on their own, have their ownapartment and there's a different way
to share that value or that excitement.
So there are some things and examplesout there like that exists that I would
(30:21):
love to do in the US, but it just maynot be the same value proposition
that it may have in another country.
And as we mentioned earlier complianceand legalities or legal positioning in
France, May not be here yet, but it'smuch stronger and we would love to see it.
But again, that's going to takea legal structural change in order
to implement something like thatin the U. S. But I'll pause there.
(30:43):
But just leaning in, that's some of thechallenges where our value proposition
lies as a culture in a country.
For instance, in Europe, there's alot more progress that's been made both
around women on boards, as well as aroundpeople with disabilities in the workplace.
But that's a result of the quotas inEurope, and in many parts of the world,
(31:05):
in Japan, South America, their quotasfor hiring people with disabilities.
In the United States, quotas areanathema, as we know with the recent
SCOTUS ruling on race based admissionsin higher education, but I think
in other parts of the world, thelaws lead a lot of the DEI efforts.
(31:26):
In the United States, it's usuallycorporate America that leads DEI
efforts, which is why this work isso important and it's really critical
that we do it in corporate America.
Many parts of the world are far moreadvanced than we are around people
with disabilities, but there'sa contextual reason for that.
Yeah.
And you're right about the family piece.
(31:48):
It's very context specific.
I have these two examples.
One is, when I visited China,there's a hot pot chain in China
where the bonus for the employeesactually send directly to the family.
And then the family is invitedinto this event, et cetera.
And the reason is that there's somuch a churn around talent, as you
(32:10):
mentioned, that they want the family.
The family weighs in on the decisionof where the, their child works.
This is an adult grown person, butthey want the family to buy in so
that they can retain the talent.
Now, From a Western lens, thiswould be completely unacceptable.
It would be, basically confidentialand you're trampling on the individual
(32:33):
rights of an adult person, et cetera,but viewed from a different lens.
This is something that is atalent strategy, as you mentioned.
I remember very clearly when I hadgone to India and I grew up in India.
So when I went to India to do this work,the first time I remember sitting with, a
bunch of mid level women in mid managementand , I went thinking that this is, Great.
(32:59):
I'm going to talk to them aboutmentoring, about leadership development,
and I'm, going on talking to themabout the stuff and just complete
disconnect, met with these blank staresand it was when I paused and asked
them, what is it that the company cando to help you advance their careers?
They generally started talkingabout living in multigenerational
families, joint families.
(33:19):
And how they couldn't stay late to work,they couldn't work on special projects
because they had to go home to takecare of their kids and family and I
had completely forgotten that dynamic.
So here I was, I thought I knew, Imean, I'd grown up in India, but I
had not, focused on one aspect of myshared identity, forgetting all those
other identities that these women had.
(33:39):
So, I asked them what could be doneand they came up with a solution.
They said, let's have a recognition dayand invite our extended families to come.
And so the families came, theywere proud of these women.
And did it change the dynamic at home?
Maybe slightly so that theycould, stay late once in a way.
But I think that role, is so criticaland that's why it's so important,
(34:03):
to contextualize our work within.
Whatever the history andculture of the place is.
One of the main things that I'mgetting from what both of you said
is connecting and, the organizationalvalue to cultural value, to societal
value based on where you are.
But I do think there is something for usas U. S. based companies to think about
(34:24):
because we are a land of immigrants.
And the nuances of cultural values canplay such a significant role in how
one shows up the level of engagement,the level of value add that employees
can bring back to the company.
At Farsight, one of our foundationalbits, like any work we do has
accountability systems built in.
(34:46):
So given this topic, I'd love to askyou your thoughts on how does 1 stay
accountable through metrics and data , inmaking sure that there is a cohesive,
wholesome alignment in the goals ofwhat a global D. E. I strategy is and
how do we stay cognizant to the factthat, yeah, we are moving towards it or
(35:08):
there have been missed opportunities.
And how do you measure intersectionalityand , utilize that data?
So the way I look at metrics andaccountability, when I think about
DEI metrics, I look at it in terms ofwhat I call lead and lag indicators.
And for me, the lag indicators arethe outcomes that you're looking for.
They're the ones that, like representationlike promotion, hiring, et cetera.
(35:34):
But you have to have leadindicators, which are those actions
and behaviors that are going toget you to those lag indicators.
They've done consistently.
So when you're measuring it's important toreally have both lead and lag indicators.
And particularly for those that arefrom the United States, in light of the
current decision by the Supreme Courton affirmative race based decisions and
(35:57):
admissions in higher education and theconcern about the trickle down impact
in corporations, I think it's reallyimportant to not just have those lag
indicators, but to have a balance of both.
So what you're doing is then toincent people with changing the
culture and behaviors and actions.
And, those could be things likesponsoring ERGs, mentoring they could
(36:21):
be your engagement scores for differentpopulations and that indicates, your
inclusive culture around accountability.
So metrics agreed.
What gets measured gets done.
And we know that, but I thinkit's important to hold teams
and leaders accountable andthen multiple ways of doing it.
It can be 1 of those competencies thatbaked into your performance review process
(36:45):
that you held individually to that.
And that's obviously oftentimes,you talk about financial outcomes
and you talk about leadershipcompetencies and you bake it into that.
And that's linked to either promotionor the financial compensation.
But, when we were at Sodexo, weactually did something different.
And this was a huge commitmentthat was made by the CEO.
(37:06):
What he did was he set aside thispool of money and he said, I'm going
to pay this out regardless of thefinancial performance of the company.
Yeah.
It's very often percentage is tiedto how the company does financially.
And the reason he did that wasbecause he said, I don't want the
journey to stop start depending onthe finances of the organization.
So if you make your diversityobjectives, they're very clearly
(37:29):
laid out both the lead and lag.
You get your bonus.
So as I said, there's multiple ways.
I think it can be linkedto the performance review.
It can be linked to money.
It can be linked to yourpromotion, whatever it is.
I think it's important to hold teamsaccountable and to have that conversation.
When we set out on those strategicpillars, common five that I'll say,
(37:52):
but I'll just give a recap, inclusiveleadership, and Culture work for
social responsibility marketplace.
While I was at a DECO and participatingin the effort there and then you're
going to hear me say a word that he saidearlier, our CEO leaning in and being
a champion began to actually infusea status with all of the C suite and
(38:14):
all of the business unit presidents.
And there were 7 C suite membersand 15 business unit presidents.
Well, that CEO mantra is that, youknow what, we're going to embed the
report out on what you're doing forDEI in your quarterly business review.
So it became a part of thataccountability structure.
So whenever they're reporting out ontheir P& L, staff log, all of the things
(38:40):
that are important to the business.
And DEI is on that agenda forthe report out back to the North
American CEO and what he didto even lever up another night.
He said 2 of these aregoing to be non negotiable.
I must see advancement in these 2 areas.
I must see advancement in talent.
And I need to see advancementin inclusive leadership.
(39:03):
Where do you step in to lead the effort?
And so each person individually,again, through altruism, had
an opportunity to step up.
If it was for people with disabilities,if it was for veterans, if it was
for women, if it was for Asians,whatever that was that they needed
to stand in their place and really astrong purpose to lead the DEI effort,
(39:24):
those were the two non negotiables.
And so We see a lot of this infusionof accountability being tied to the CEO
kind of laying down a law to say, here'swhere I expect those sound bites to be.
And so it was a joint process, right?
So everything that was on theiridentifiable goals or in that structure,
because each business unit president hada strategy defined for their business unit
(39:49):
based on Things they wanted to accomplishand areas of deficiency in which we
identified, which could be levered upor diversity could create more value.
And again, it was a partnership.
So, when they reported out and theyhad their heat mapping, they're kind
of red, yellow, green to where theywere contributing in those areas.
On a quarterly basis, we were able toassess where they were and then improve
(40:13):
on that metric as we move forward.
Nick could have been anythingcould have been promotions
talent again, their contribution.
They had to list wherethey're contributing, whether
it's internal or external.
So it was really a good modelto drive accountability.
Rohini, it was tied to theoverall performance and metric,
not the specific metric.
(40:33):
So I love the examples here whereyou have a specific tie to the
metric and then one specific examplewhere it's built into their overall
responsibility as a senior leader.
And for that to happen in both cases,the common piece is it has to be called
out at a strategic level, which is whywhen they did the business reviews,
they report out on it, because it hasto be a strategic lever of the business.
(40:56):
I
have a couple of questionsfrom our registrants.
It says, Not all whitepeople come from privilege.
In what respects should Caucasiansbe taken into account in regard
to inclusion and diversity?
I sometimes see themdiscriminated against also.
The feeling of discrimination orreal discrimination, unfortunately,
(41:17):
happens by design because it's goingto be perceived a lot of times.
I like to lead with the fact that we havearrived at a point of total inclusion.
We understand that ifwe're only leading through.
And again, this is my professionalopinion that the model is flawed
because we can't create enough of.
Resource groups to acknowledge all peoplein all dimensions in any organization.
(41:41):
All right, so we can't create 100 andgoes back to Murray's point to around
intersectionality because when you haveintersectionality, someone is not going
to choose when my mom's Asian and mydad's Hispanic, and you got two resource
groups you know, it's their dynamicand how they grew up in the same thing
if you're white, and you don't have anERG that fits your background, which is
(42:01):
most times, cisgender white males areeliminated from conversations unless
they ally into active resource group.
In order to, ensure that all dimensionsof diversity are represented, there
should be some form of a hybrid model.
And what I mean by hybrid model, thereis a employee engagement unit or a
council or they call different things.
(42:23):
And then you also have ERGs thatrepresent underrepresentation.
But making a call for champions to jointhe effort as a full person, all their
dimensions, all their intersectionalitypoints, and have them contribute to
these efforts in a meaningful waycontributing to those strategic pillars,
(42:44):
whereas the cultural groups will havea set of defined objectives We call
them innovation teams, and so there'san innovation team for culture, talent,
social responsibility, and marketplace.
So, as a cisgender white male,that individual can get engaged and
involved as a total participant,as an altruistic participant.
(43:08):
And not an ally or an executivesponsor or a business partner.
So really by design and again, pushingthis point of total inclusion, giving
them a platform, giving everybodya platform to equally weigh in.
And so by design, when you onlyhave the resource networks and
people have to ally in, theyfeel outside and it's not just.
(43:31):
White, it could be someonewho's two or more races.
It's just wherever that racial orgender or community disposition lies,
if there's not an ERG for it, thensomeone feels outside of the frame.
By design, again, there's ways now inwhich we can make it a point of total
inclusion, which leans into more altruismthan only leaning in through allyship.
(43:54):
When you talk about the answer thisspecific question, it is about everybody,
you know, is, definitely about everyone.
I think that needs need to representas many different groups as possible.
So, in addition to, your classicones in the United States.
(44:15):
It's, Hispanic, Asian, AfricanAmerican, disabilities, LGBTQ.
Think about how you canengage the white men.
Is it a veterans?
Is it a disabilities?
Is it an intergenerational ERG?
What are those different waysto really engage our white men?
I think, when you launch amentoring initiative, Make
sure it's open to everyone.
You can oversample the underrepresentedgroups, but make sure that
(44:39):
everyone has an opportunity there.
And understand the what's in itfor me, because this is not just
about underrepresented groups.
What's in it for the whitemale in the organization?
They want to be part of the solution also.
A lot of white maleslook at legacy issues.
They want to be allies.
So make sure that you appeal to all ofthose pieces and including white men.
(45:00):
And then when we talked about the businesspiece, if you say that, this is about
the business and growing the business,it's going to benefit everyone, including
the Caucasians in the organization.
So they need to feel likethey're part of solution.
I think that's reallyimportant, but going back to.
The comment that you made Farah thequestion that , not all white people
come from a place of privilege.
(45:20):
That's true, but there's oneprivilege all white people come
from, and that is the skin color.
That's something that's universal.
It's around the world.
It can't be changed.
Of course, there are other aspects.
When you look at an intersection ofa human being, it may be religion,
it may be socioeconomics, it maybe education level, whatever it is.
(45:41):
And yes, of course, white peopleare also discriminated against.
So what I would say is that the way Iapproach this is, at the end of the
day, when you look at talent decisions.
You want to hire the best qualifiedcandidate, but the point here
is to open your talent pool.
So you really are accessing a wide pool oftalent and then ultimately hiring the best
(46:04):
qualified person, regardless of whetherit's a male or female, white person
or a person of color, whatever it is.
So I think.
It's really important.
It's very important because power isstill held by white people in most
parts of the world in most industries.
So it's very important that, white peoplebe part of the solution that they see
(46:27):
themselves as part of the solution thatthey see that this also benefits them.
So I think that's extremely important.
We have a question here.
That says one of the identified challengesto minorities inclusion, notably in
French companies, turn out to be thelack of KPIs to measure inclusion.
So this person wants to know what couldpossible solutions to such a challenge be?
(46:51):
You already talked about thelaws, and bearing in mind that
the French legislation prohibitscollection of data in relation with
ethnicity, religious beliefs, etc.
You're absolutely right.
It is a big challenge.
You can visibly see things.
So if you're in an office, you can seewho's at what level in an organization.
So I think, that's 1, but thereis an organization and there
(47:14):
are companies or organizationsnow that are doing this work.
There's a nonprofit called club.
21st century club, and what they'redoing is to collect data based on 2
things, 1 is on the place of birthof your parents and your grandparents.
(47:35):
So they can see whether, your firstor second generation of immigrants,
so that is a telling piece.
And the other thing they're gatheringinformation on is the socioeconomics
of your parents or grandparents.
Now, what's interesting is, thisis in France, and in the United
States, obviously, gathering dataon race, is acceptable France.
It's not.
(47:56):
But what's acceptable in Franceis to gather socioeconomic data
of your parents and grandparents,which is a no in the United States.
So a lot of the US members are saying,how can you ask these questions?
This is confidential and someonedescribed it as, this is a,
different kind of reality inthe 2 places, but, look them up.
(48:17):
They're doing some good work.
Thank you for the work that you'redoing to, as you said enable all
of us to be students in this work.
It isn't easy.
It always takes a village.
And thank you for joining ustoday and sharing your wisdom.
This was so juicy.
There were so many great nuggets.
Thank you for making it practical for us.
Thank you for listening to FARSIGHT Chats.
(48:39):
I hope that this conversation is thestart to future ones you have with your
colleagues, teams, and communities.
If you have enjoyed thispodcast , please like and comment
and tell us your thoughts.
Give us your feedback.
The more comments we get, the more likeswe get, that is what's going to help
us reach a wider audience, and thatis our mission: to build and widen our
(49:03):
collective learning so that we can indeeddo more, do better and do different.
Thank you so much for your listenership.
We are gonna be back withmore episodes very soon.
In the meantime, don't forget to followus on Instagram and Facebook at Go Far
Site LinkedIn at the Farsight Agency andcheck out our website Gofarsight.com to
(49:23):
know more about who we are and what we do.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
New Heights with Jason & Travis Kelce
Football’s funniest family duo — Jason Kelce of the Philadelphia Eagles and Travis Kelce of the Kansas City Chiefs — team up to provide next-level access to life in the league as it unfolds. The two brothers and Super Bowl champions drop weekly insights about the weekly slate of games and share their INSIDE perspectives on trending NFL news and sports headlines. They also endlessly rag on each other as brothers do, chat the latest in pop culture and welcome some very popular and well-known friends to chat with them. Check out new episodes every Wednesday. Follow New Heights on the Wondery App, YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to new episodes early and ad-free, and get exclusive content on Wondery+. Join Wondery+ in the Wondery App, Apple Podcasts or Spotify. And join our new membership for a unique fan experience by going to the New Heights YouTube channel now!
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.