EP 52: Stripped Seas: How Menhaden Mismanagement Threatens Our Fisheries

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Capt. Paul Eidman (00:00):
And up until last month, I was measuring
every single fish at six orseven inches.
Now I'm measuring every fish atnine inches.
This time of year, I should bemeasuring 12 inch and overfish,
and they are just not there.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fis (00:22):
Hello and welcome back to the Fat Dad
Fishing Show.
I'm your regular host, RichNatoli, and we've got a pretty
uh interesting episode tonightthat I'm I'm excited to dive
into.
We're gonna be talking aboutthe condition of Menhaden,
Atlantic Menhaden, uh, all upand down the coast that affects
everybody who's saltwaterfishing, and that is pretty much

(00:43):
anybody that's watching orlistening to this.
So it's a it's one of thosetopics that look, we got to take
a break from strike fast.
Uh, we got to take a break fromthe TOG, uh, well, even before
TOG gets really rolling.
And we're gonna talk about thisbecause it's an important issue
that I think everybody shouldat least have some information
about.
Uh, we are scheduled to havetwo guests on with us tonight,

(01:05):
and uh, I'm gonna jump into thatin a minute, but let's get
let's get through thehousekeeping first and let's
talk about the sponsors of theshow.
The first one, Great BayOutfitters, Radio Road in
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(01:28):
Let me just tell you that.
Paul, the owner, is nuts.
He's in the chat right now.
This is a dude who uh findshimself with a little free time
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And uh, one of the best thingsabout the shop is it's on the

(01:49):
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So if there's a kayak thatyou're considering, go down
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That that is always the bestadvice.
Don't listen to people thatsay, go get this, go get that.
Uh, 99.9% of the time they'resaying it because that's what
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Doesn't mean it's right foryou.

(02:10):
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It's also in the bumper to thisvideo if you want to go back
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If you have a Toyota truck, uhthis is what they what he sells

(02:31):
are the tunes for the Toyotatruck.
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(03:14):
My home office is in Bluebell,Pennsylvania.
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So if there's anything I cando, reach out to me,
267-270-1145.
So that's going to cover thesponsors.
And I want to just let youknow.
So we're scheduled to have twoguests on tonight.

(03:35):
We're scheduled to have onCaptain Paul Eidman, who is he's
captain of Real Therapy, Flyand Light Tackle.
He fishes primarily stripedbass, and we're talking northern
New Jersey area.
So, like most of the peoplethat watch this, our New York is
our number one region thatwatches, and then and then New

(03:55):
Jersey is number two.
So, right where you are, that'swhere Captain Paul is fishing.
He is also involved withMenhaden Defender.
So a 501c3, it's really lookingout for the environment and
Menhaden specifically.
So he's going to be on, talkabout what's going on with that
fishery.
We're also supposed to haveCaptain Vinny Calabro from

(04:15):
Carranan Charters in JamaicaBay, New York.

Now, here's the issue (04:18):
Captain Vinny is out today, and he is
not here yet.
He may not be able to get here.
You know, the they're captains,they work on the water.
So we knew that could happen,but we have two and two
captains, and Paul is availableand he's here.
And we're going to jump on withhim in one moment.
I want to do a littlehousekeeping.

(04:38):
All right.
So those of you that are new tothe show, welcome.
Thank you for showing up.
Those that have been here for awhile, you know that I am not
afraid to give my opinion onanything.
I just don't care.
I'm not making a ton of moneyfrom this.
This is not my job.
This is what I do for fun,trying to help people out.
So if I believe something, I'mgoing to tell you flat out.

(05:00):
And there have been multipleepisodes in the past where I've
said, well, you can't say it,but I can.
And I will.
I will tell you this for thisfor this Menhaden issue that
we're going to talk about.
I'm not sure entirely where Istand at this moment.
So do I believe Menhaden are introuble?
I do.

(05:20):
Do I believe the math behindit?
I don't.
And I don't for the same reasonas I don't believe a lot of the
data for striped bass, it'sjust been shown to be just bad
data.
And I don't trust the ASMFC.
I've made that clear.
But it it could be that we'reon the same side on this.
I'm not sure.
So that's where I stand.

(05:41):
And I want to also make itclear that this issue that we're
talking about is Manhaden.
We're not going to drift offinto other things like windmills
and striped bass, even thoughstriped bass are definitely
related to the Manhadenpopulations.
That's not what we're talkingabout.
We're talking specificallyabout Menhaden.
If you don't know what thoseare, they're bunker or pogies in

(06:04):
different areas.
So that's what we're going todo.
Yeah, and this is a commercialand a wreck fishing issue.
And I can tell you right now,just by the title of this, the
commercial guys are pissed atme.
Pissed.
And it's a clean channel, soI'm not going to say everything
that I'm thinking, but I'll justsay this.

(06:26):
I don't care if you're pissedat me because of the title of
this.
I don't care about anybody.
My initial thought is there isan issue with Manhattan.
I just don't know what to doabout it at this moment.
And I don't know that I believeany of the math.
So that's where I stand.
Now that could evolve as we goforward.
Paul is really, really in-depthinvolved in this.

(06:47):
He knows the numbers.
He knows everything about it.
So he's going to do someeducation here.
And the last thing I'm going tosay is I did not invite, we do
not have somebody from quoteunquote the other side of this
issue, which is the reductionfleet side of this issue on the
show tonight.
And the reason that nobody ison to argue is because they

(07:10):
didn't want to come on.
Nobody answered.
Now, I get it.
It's not a huge podcast.
I get it.
They're corporate attorneys andit's whatever.
They didn't want to come on.
That's fine.
But don't complain.
And we're not just going tohave a random guy who works on a
on one of the boats come onbecause want to talk to people
that know what they're talkingabout, have the information and
the data.
So that's kind of where westand.
Those are the level setting forthis episode.

(07:32):
And with that said, gonna bringon Captain Paul Eidman right
now.
Good to see you, Paul.
Thanks for coming on.

Hey Rich.
Thank you so much.

Yeah.
I'm doing great.
I'm feeling great.
I'm I'm looking forward to thisepisode for a while.
And I've been following Menhateand Defenders for quite a long
time because I've, you know, youand I talked about this
backstage.
I it first came up with me inthe late 90s, early 2000s, where

(08:03):
you could see all the you knowthe reduction happening right up
along the beach lines, andreally pissed off the
recreational fishing guys backthen.
Just I don't even know why.
We didn't know the numbers oranything.
It was just we didn't want tosee the boats there.
And so I've kind of followedit.
And then when I found theMenhaden defenders online, I
just kind of started followingand trying to keep up with it.

(08:25):
But things have kind of come toa head.
And I want to share one thingthat we started to talk about.
I mentioned that to me, I'vedescribed it to people as the
Menhaden or the bunker is reallythe first domino to fall in the
line.
So if it falls, it can collapseeverything else behind it.

(08:49):
But you had a different take.

Yeah, not I'm not jiving on that.

Yeah, so you're not jobing.
So what's your take on that?
I think it's the first domino.
What's your thought?

It's literally the last domino.
So I'm a forage fish guy, andthat and that comes from being a
fisherman.
And in my mind, in order to bea good fisherman, you have to
know what fish are eating.
So unless you know the forageand you know the patterns that
are in the water, you don'treally, you know, and I also I'm
not a live bait guy, so I'malways throwing lures trying to

(09:21):
match the forage.
So to me, this kind oforganically, you know, it
happened.
And it just, you know, if youknow your forage fish, you know
the the situations that surroundeach one.
I don't care if it's a grassshrimp, an eel, a menhayden, a
herring, they all have their ownhabits and and and biology.

(09:42):
And I'm really, really deepinto that.
So that led me into this ratherinsane rabbit hole.
But but to answer your yourquestion, it's the last stop on
the train right before you gooff the cliff.
So this all starts out withAtlantic herring, okay?

(10:04):
We've completely decimated theAtlantic herring stocks in the
Northeast.
And a lot of those thosevessels, when everything goes by
sectors, okay.
So what they say is, okay,sector one is overfished, sector
two is overfished, and thenthey just close the season.
And then those boats, thesethese giant herring boats, come

(10:26):
down and they they have to staybusy in order to stay
affordable.
So they start loading Menhadenand they became carry vessels
for our bait fleet in New Jerseybecause they had no fish where
they were.
Now, key to that is providinglobster bait.
Okay, so when you run out ofbait, when there's no Atlantic

(10:49):
herring left, which is thetraditional lobster bait, you
have to turn to another fish.
Well, for years they turned toalewife and blueback herring,
which were also very popular upthere.
And guess what?
Now we're at the bottom of thebarrel of that too.
Now, alewife and blueback,commonly known as river herring,

(11:10):
are caught at sea and just anddumped overboard.
When when these midwatertrawlers are fishing for squid
or scup or Atlantic mackerel orall these other fish, they use
small mesh and they tow in themidwater, and guess what?
They all feed on the samelittle microorganisms.

(11:30):
So when the net goes throughthe pod, it's a disaster.
And these nets are so big, theycan decimate an entire river's
population of river herring inone net set.
So if you had river herring inone special place in
Pennsylvania that you used to goas a kid, guess what?
There's 10 that show up in thespring now instead of 10

(11:54):
million.
Right.
And I live that.
So I mean, I can remembertaking my bike to the local
creek and and catching riverherring, you know, in my bare
hands because there were somany.
And now there's none in thatsame creek.
So here we are.
Everything has prey switchedover to Menhaden, and now the
Menhaden are depleted.

(12:14):
Well, what do you think comesnext?
I mean, there's nothing else,you know, and and we've up until
recently, we haven't had thesand eels that we need.
We haven't had American eelsare also in the in the crapper.
So it's it's it's an uglysituation.
And and it's always important.
The bottom of each of theseconversations, by the way, is

(12:37):
the nutrients that the menhaydenhave.
In other words, a striped basscan prey switch over and eat a
baby fluke, but it doesn't havethe same vitamins and minerals
in there that it needs toturbocharge that growth.
And for that same reason,that's why these are so
important commercially.

(12:58):
Because for fish meal and oil,they're getting all these
nutrients and it's cheap.
And if you need your puppy togrow fast or you need your
salmon to grow fast to get tomarket, you feed them menhaden.
It's rocket fuel.

Yeah, it's interesting.
It's funny because I in thefish too, like striped bass,
yeah, they get they get betterbetter nutrients out of it.
And it's what I what's what Itell people when we're talking
about what's the best way toapproach catching certain fish.
And when we talk about predatorfish, now a migrating striper
is not, or I should say, anambush predator fish.

(13:33):
When it's migrating, that's notwhat it is.
It's playing a different game.
But you know, you take the thesummer holdovers, they become
their natural ambush predators.
And the big thing is they'rethey're eating to survive, and
and they need to get thecalories back that they're
expending to go after that preywhen they get out there.
Otherwise, there's no sense indoing it.

(13:55):
And it's a great point.
If they're going to eat alittle baby flounder, that's
great, but they're not gettingnearly the nutrients that does
impact it.
And then it just now they haveto go after two baby flounders
and six crabs and so on and soforth, and they're you know,
they're not quite getting towhere they are.
It it really is though a dominoeffect that we're seeing.

(14:16):
But my my big question is whatis it going to look like down
the line if well, actually,let's take a step back.
Let's talk about the numbersbecause as I've told you in the
before, and I said at thebeginning of this, I'm I'm not
sold on the numbers because I'mnot sold on the entities that

(14:36):
are collecting the numbers.
Are you able to comment on thevalidity of the numbers when
they do these stock assessmentsof the Menhaden?

Yeah, I I actually think I don't know,
it's you know, we all have ouropinions about the ASMFC and
basically that they couldn't,you know, run a bodega, but it's
it's true.
I mean, the majority of thespecies, species that they
manage are in the are in thetoilet.
And if it was corporate, theywould be fired because they're

(15:07):
they're simply not doing theirjob.
The ASMFC, if I if I remembercorrectly, was started in the
early 50s.
And originally the designaround the ASMS ASMFC was to
have all the user groups thatuse the fishery participate in
the management of the fishery.
So when you have a commercialguy, an environmental guy, and a

(15:30):
recreational guy sittingrepresenting each state, it all
should come together.
Well, over time it's becomelargely a commercially run and
lobbied organization, and thatalways puts business in front of
the fish.
And me personally, not only, Imean, in my world, in my little

(15:52):
Enviro world, I always put thefish in front of business.
I don't care what it is.
I mean, I run a striper charterbusiness, and I should be in
favor of status quo.
Let everything go, but I'm not.
I think that we need to becautionary because we're gonna

(16:12):
shoot ourselves in the foot.
We're gonna wake up in 2027 andgo, wow, what we said in 25 was
right, and now we have none,and now we go into a full
moratorium, and I can't even doa charter.
Right.
But yet, put the fish first,and and you gotta you gotta just
be really, really concernedabout the conditions.

(16:34):
I I have to say though, thatthe scientists, these are all
marine biologists, they allprovide the data to the ASMFC.
I have confidence in the datacollection.
However, in this specific casethat brought us to tonight and
this vote the other day, was thefact that they admitted there

(17:00):
was a mistake.
They admitted that they usedthe wrong numbers to calculate
the ecosystem-based managementplan that they were gonna
implement.
Now, when you're doing millionsand millions of fish and you're
off by a hair, that means alot.
So basically what they said wasokay, we we originally

(17:25):
allocated 233,000 metric tons tothe industry.
Okay, that's both reductionfishing and the bait sector,
bait meaning trap bait.
Okay.
So now they're saying so so sofor for years they they they
treated menhaden as a singlespecies management, just like

(17:48):
you would for a weak fish or afluke or a striped bass.
However, we lobbied very, veryhard to get them to switch over
to ecosystem-based managementbecause we felt that you
couldn't use a Menhaden as asingle species because it
influenced and impacted so muchof the ecosystem that you have

(18:10):
to do something different.
That took us 12 years toimplement.
Okay?
We finally did it.
They they put in all the work,everything from herons to to
osprey to eagles to you name it,it's all in there, okay?
Striped bass, omega protein,the lobster guys, you name it,
they they put everything inthere and they came out with a

(18:31):
number.
And they said 233 would do it.
Well, guess what?
Oops.
Now they're saying 108,000 willdo it.
Right.
And 154% cut, okay?
And that that's what thescience says that the ecosystem
needs to survive.

(18:52):
And what did the ASMFC vote onthe other day?
They used their own freakingscience and they said, nah, I
don't think so.
We're only gonna do a 20% cut,and that's how it is.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishin (19:08):
So so this is where uh my
suspicion does kind of collidewith you now, right?
So the data collection, here'sthe thing.
I I do believe that datacollection, they do what they
can, they don't have theresources.
They could, I think they couldbe better.
Every species, I think the datacollection could be better.
But as I had mentioned to you,I used to work in statistical

(19:32):
analysis for a very, very largecompany, like very large.
And I could tell you why fourout of five dentists prefer
Colgate and tell you it's true.
And I could tell you in thenext sentence that four out of
five dentists prefer preferCrest and it's true.
Because you can make thenumbers do whatever you want,
but it's also very easy to justscrew it up.

(19:52):
It's it's very easy.
And like you said, if you'reoff by one-tenth of one percent
at that volume, there's a bigimpact.
So are we sure that the hundredand the the 108 was right?
Or are they saying maybe theymade a mistake and it really
should have been 186?

No, no.
The 186 was a fallback positionthat they came up with.
This is this is just a veryclever move.
I I think that it it this thereare so many pitfalls to this
conversation that I don't Ithink we need to kind of trim it
a little bit, if you will.

(20:31):
We need to kind of edit itbecause it's just too freaking
complicated.
I mean, it's it this is this istough stuff.
I've been in a room with thesmartest marine biologists and
they turn to me and go, What thehell's going on?
Like that's how complicatedfishery management is.
Okay.
However, don't treat a astriped bass, excuse me, a

(20:53):
menhayden like you would astriped bass.
In other words, it's a wholeseparate entity.
And when you're when you'redealing with ships that are 200
feet long taking two millionfish at a time, it's totally
different than a fleet of boatsoff a Sandy Hook, you know,
jigging up stripers.
Like it's a whole differentscenario.

(21:16):
They're totally related and theconversation, they are in the
conversation, but let's keep themenhayden cozy in their own
little conversation, okay?
Yeah.
Um, you know, everybody, a lotof your listeners, you know, we
all want to talk about, youknow, the planes and the tactics
that they use and and all thestuff and how unfair it is.

(21:37):
But the reality is that they'rein the business to collect
protein and they're extremelygood at it.
And in order to get thatprotein, they have to go for the
fattest, oldest fish.
Okay?
And that brings us exactlywhere we are today.
After six years of targeting atthe numbers that they were told

(22:01):
they could they could do.
We're all yelling, by the way,on the water how the osprey have
no food, or the striped ass areskinny, or we haven't seen a
big school of bunker like weused to.
As fishermen, we're all seeingthis, but that's anecdotal
evidence.
That's not scientific, youknow.
But guess what?
Now we're right.

(22:22):
It's sad.
Now we're freaking right.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishin (22:27):
So was there was there data
collection?
So their data collection thatwas years ago.
So we've had six years or five,no, it's five years, right?
Five years of targets set on amiscalculation.

Well, it was six years ago that they went
into the ecosystem-basedmanagement um method.
But they do young of yearstudies every year, they feed
that data in there.
They do omega protein has tosubmit catch reports on a daily
basis.
So every time they set a net,there's a you know, GPS

(23:03):
coordinate to that, there's anamount and a quantity, and they
feed that to nymphs, and and itall goes into the total.
However, you know, now thatCook Seafood owns them,
everything's private.
Okay, there's there's it's nolonger public information, it's
not a public company.
So that that complicates thingsquite a bit.

(23:25):
So we don't know how much theycatch.
Like, like we know overall thatthey're under the quota, but we
don't know year to date, youknow, like did they make the
quota?
I mean, as far as I know, theyhaven't made their quota.
They haven't come close toreaching their quota in a couple
of years now.
And that itself, if these guysare the absolute best in the

(23:46):
business and they're notcatching their quota, that tells
me that the abundance is isdifferent, you know.

Yeah, I mean, it's it certainly seems
that way.
I mean, you know, again, I canonly say anecdotally, but I'm
hearing anecdotally that theeven the schools that we had
just three years ago are justnot there.
You know, you could walk acrossthem and they're not there.

You know, I I I fish the Navasink and the
Shrewsbury and the Sandy Hookarea and and and up in the
Raritan River and all that, andI see a lot of estuary type
behavior.
Very, very early in the spring,we always have a run of what we
call horse bunker, okay,meaning they're like 12 to 14
inches.
These are the big dogs, okay?

(24:31):
And always we had that.
And up until I guess the lasteight years, I've been
monitoring two streams wherewe've had these these fish
kills, and all the fish, Imeasure them all the time, and
they're always these these horsebunker.
The last two years, 24 and 25,we had torrential rains in the
beginning of the year, and adultthese big adult bunker can't

(24:55):
can't tolerate that.
And they bolted, they literallybolted, and they're they're in
like New Hampshire.
Okay.
However, that that biomass oflarge adult fish used to be
enormous, and now it's small.
So when they all move out ofthe area, our springtime bass
fishing here in New Jersey justgoes off a cliff.

(25:17):
And then you have migratorybass that are coming up the
coast looking for these bigmeals, and guess what?
They're not here.
Well, you know what?
Then the bass go farther upnorth, they come out of our
reach.
So am I I'm trying to stay ontrack here.
It's it's pretty hard.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishi (25:34):
No, you're no, you're you're
staying on track.

I mean, it is it is a how about the adult
bunker?
It's yes, every so if you havea company that must they app
they can't make it catchingfive-inch fish.
Okay, they gotta have big fish.
And the pilots, by the way,that fly over the areas before
they they set the nets are soskilled they can actually pick

(26:01):
out what they want.

And they're used to seeing the size
of the flash and all thatstuff, yeah.

And the depth, how far down in the water
column and all that, and alsothey have to be concerned that
they don't want to overload thenet because that's no good
either.
Okay.
So, so they're up there, and Imean I I follow the planes every
day, I follow each and everyship every day.
You know, it's like religion tome.
And when I see them coming uppast, you know, past Paul's

(26:31):
store, I know they're they're ontheir way.
I I I just I just know itbecause they look like it's
looks like a military convoy.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fi (26:40):
Right.
Oh, yeah, I've seen them.
I've seen them heading up thecoast.
And you know, usually you'd seethem when you're going out tuna
fishing.

And yeah, last year was their record.
They they came up six timeslast year.
It's crazy.
Yeah.

Well, let me ask you this because
this is this is one of the bigdebates that I'm seeing on
social media.
What so you you have thereduction, you have Omega as an
example.
Yeah, the reduction fleet.

And then you got the Well, Omega's the only
company, so don't be shy.

Okay.
Omega.
And then you have the bait guysthat are supplying the shops
and everything.
What do you have an idea ofwhat the the breakdown is
between those two?

It's not supplying shops.
That's like not even on thelist.

That's what I want to kind of get to.

It's 75-25.
Okay, 75% goes to Virginia,period.
Right.
And 25 is Omega.
And the second largest produceris New Jersey at 11%.
Okay.
And the majority of that goesto a single company called Lund
Seafood.

(27:47):
Now, this this is strictlycatching whole fish, putting it
in a bin, putting that bin on aflatbed truck, and sending it to
Maine or the Chesapeake or toFlorida for crab.
It it's not to have anything todo with you know fishing or
chum or or recreational fishingbait.

That's it's commercial baits for
whatever.

So like there are local guys that throw a
smaller net, like a sane net,like you and I would throw on a
boat, and they're taking athousand, two thousand fish a
day, and then loading up a truckand driving around to the
tackle shops and selling them.
And they are permitted to dothat.
So they are totally separate.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad F (28:32):
They're totally separate, but they are
included in the numbers.

Uh, I don't believe so, no.

Okay.

I guess my point is it's called incidental
catch, by the way.

Yeah, it's it's here's my thought on
it.
You see, a lot of people aregetting on the shops, and I I
don't I don't necessarily agreewith that because it's it's like
the whole thing.
You get a little I I hatepolitics, man, and I I'm gonna
say something, it's gonna pisspeople off.
The whole like the straws, theplastic straws, and the the
amount of plastic that the U.S.

(29:02):
has thrown in the oceans.
Okay, you can cut it, but atthe end of the day, it's
literally nothing compared toChina and those over there.
Like it's such a drop in theliterally a drop in the ocean
that to me it's like well, youknow, we're doing all this
stuff.
So that's the kind of the waythat I think whether you agree

(29:23):
with that or not, the scale isso far different when you're
talking about these guys nettingand going to shops as opposed
to these guys that are netting100.
Let's make this clear.
100, this is reduced, 186,000metric tons of this per year.

(29:43):
Like that's that's some seriousvolume that's coming out of
there.
And then you got these guysthat are maybe taking out, you
know, less than a ton a year,you know, for the for these
smaller things.
So I I I I think it'sresponsible.
I think it would be great ifthey wouldn't.
Do it, but I don't know thatit's I think it's more symbolic
than anything.
I don't know how you feel aboutthat.

Well, I I first off, I don't think that we
should allow reduction fishingin the United States.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing (30:14):
I agree with that.

Period.
There is I mean, as BruceFranklin used to say, he's the
author of the Most ImportantFish in the Sea, that he's he
would say there's not a singlething that omega protein makes
that can't be produced in a moresustainable way and can't be
replaced.
In other words, just becauseyour great grandpappy fished for

(30:37):
them 150 years ago and thefisheries, you know, your
heritage doesn't mean that youcan continue to just strip mine
the ocean at the at the expenseof every creature and every
business and every you know,it's it's totally lopsided.
And unfortunately, we asrecreational anglers, we don't

(31:00):
have the organization or the,you know, the commercial guys
are very, very talented at whatthey do.
They have buttloads of money,they have they have tons of
attorneys, you know.
We we're really like MenhadenDefenders, for example, we're
completely on donations, right?
And when we need an attorney,we have to pay for it, you know.

(31:21):
Yeah, I could lose an entireyear's worth of donations in in
one fell swoop.
You know what I'm saying?
Like it's just it'shypersensitive.
So it this is this is a reallytough subject.

Yeah, and I I I'll throw another
opinion in there.
I I as far as if the numbersare right, and you say Omega,
you can take we know that we'rewe're safe with the population
if you take your 108,000.
I am totally fine with Omegausing planes, submarines,
whatever the hell they need toget it out as efficiently,

(32:00):
quickly, and cheaply as possibleto take it because I I don't
care.
I like go ahead, it's business.
I'm a business guy, man.
I'm all about capitalism, I'mgood with it.
My my issue comes with theother part because when when you
it's it's how much do they get?
And I just don't trust itbecause look, I don't God I

(32:23):
can't say things.
No matter who you look at, nomatter who you look at on TV, no
matter which bias channel youwant to look at on either side,
those people are being boughtand sold every day.
Every single one of them isbeing bought and sold every day.
And I I just don't I just don'ttrust it, man.

(32:46):
I just don't trust the numbers.
And look, Omega, they're fineif they're within the numbers.
It's just the fact that Omegais but I think is buying the
numbers.

That's well, what's interesting about that,
Rich, is that they they acceptedthe science and the numbers
when it told them it was okay togo to 233.

Yeah.

Now that it's okay to that they're saying,
hey, listen, the real science isshowing us that we must go to
108 in order to preserve theecology of the entire East
Coast.
Now they're saying, yeah, youknow, the science is bad.
Right.
That's that's not the way thisworks, you know?
No, it's just disingenuous.
In my world, science is first.

(33:28):
If science tells me something,I I take it to the bank.
This is not an opinion.
You know, and then when we seethings on the water and we go,
you know what?
I've been doing this for 30years and I'm seeing less and
less fish, both game fish andmenhaden, that's an indicator.
And when you have a thousandguys online chiming in, like on

(33:51):
our Facebook page, holy crap,you wouldn't believe I get
messages from all over the theEast Coast.
Right.
No bunker here, no bunker here,only immature bunker here.
Haven't seen an adult bunker.
It's it's fascinating.
And everybody is making theseobservations because we are the
stewards of the resource.
If we don't speak up, nobody'sgonna do it.

(34:13):
Right.
And I see there's a question inthe it's coming up here in the
chat.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fish (34:17):
It's probably the same one from
James Flynn.
How long does it take for abunker to get to that horse
bunker size?

Yeah, so horse bunker is normally over
four years old.
All right.
So it at two and a half tothree years old, a bunker is
sexually mature and they canreproduce.
Okay.
But once they get bigger thanthat, they can live nine years.
If nobody bothered them, theythey would live a full nine
years.
That's another form of herring,and they they follow that.

(34:46):
Hope that answers the question.

Yeah, well, it just says look, if we
all have all these little ones,I I could say a lot of things.
It's like you said, it'scomplicated, right?
You've got a ton of littleones, I think we have a ton of
the small guys.

Wow.

I don't know where to But I don't
think that we have as many aswe used to.
You know, again, anecdotally,right?
Like maybe they moved.
Like you could say that.
Maybe they just don't, maybeit's like other fish.
They, you know, we have redfishback, we have sheep's head
back.
Maybe it's maybe they've movedto a different area and we
haven't found them.
And maybe maybe the thepopulation exploded.

(35:24):
I don't know.
But what I do know is that Ihave not seen in the past five
years as many bunkers as I usedto see.

unknown (35:32):
Yeah.

Rich Natoli - Fat Da (35:32):
Definitely not.
I mean, it used to you used tonot be able to get away from
them.
It was ridiculous.
And now when you find when youfind a really big number of them
and huge schools, and it can gofor miles, but they used to go
like 10 miles, you know, nowthey go two miles.
It's still big, but it's not asbig as it used to be.
You know, I I remember goingout to the, I'm not, don't know

(35:54):
if you're familiar with it, butthe Five Fathom Bank, which is
not, you know, it's off of CapeMay and it's it's a little
distance out there, and youwould be it would just be
continuous bunker all the wayout.
And you just don't see thatanymore at all, at all.

Yeah, and for the last couple of weeks, Omega
and all the other all the otherboats have been at the mouth of
the Delaware Bay.
So that's that's their rightnow, that's happens to be where
they're where they're gettingtheir fish.
The one good thing about thislousy, lousy weather and these
consistent storms, it's reallybad for us, but it's really good
for preserving men.

(36:29):
Right.
Because they can't, they can't,you know, anything over a
couple of foot seas, they'redone.
Uh they they can't run the netboats, you know, their
visibility is bad.
So it's kind of good in a in abad way.

But we need those winds to bring
them in, you know, the westwinds, bring them bring them
inside that line.

But you're right.
I mean, the fish do movearound, but I'm I'm gonna
default once again to you gottayou gotta look at this it in a
in a coastwide lens.
Okay.
When the Indians were here, theMenhaden went from Maine to
Florida.
In other words, the entirebiomass was the length of the

(37:11):
East Coast.
That's my unit of measure.
Okay.
Now we're we're focused on theslug of what's left, basically
the middle of the biomass, is inthe mid-Atlantic.
Okay.
And yes, they do move and theymove north, but there's less
abundance overall.

(37:32):
The the numbers overall are waysmaller than they need to be.
Okay, so if if this was to goto 108,000, Omega would
basically send boats to theGulf.
Because they don't need eightboats or six boats or whatever
they're running out.
So they would shrink it andthey would they would the jobs

(37:55):
would be lost in Reedville, andthey would send the guys to uh
to the Gulf, which by the way isalmost two and a half times the
amount of fish taken off theeast coast.
And that's even morefascinating because Gulf
Menhaden only get to be seveninches.
Yeah.
So you need two fish to equal,so you're really pillaging the

(38:16):
Gulf by removing that many fish.
And I've talked to redfishguides and spec guides, and
they're all like, you know, whenthese boats come in, we're
we're done.
We're done for the week.
Right.
You know, and they're trying toimplement all these bumper
zones, but we could save thatfor another another show.

Yeah, so let's get to this.
So this is a a basic point,KCD.
I I see your comment in there.
I'm gonna bring that up later,but another one from James
Flynn.
Where does the talk of theseCanadian boats fit into all
this?
So this is Omega.
Let's talk for those that areunaware of exactly their role.
Why don't you give your youryou know, thousand-foot view of

(38:57):
who is Omega and why is this anissue?

Okay, so if you recall earlier in the show,
we were talking about how Omegaused to be public.
Okay, so they were ver theywere a Houston-based company
that was doing business inReedville for a century.
And in 2018, they got boughtfor like $550 million by a

(39:25):
company called Cook Seafood.
Now, Cook Seafood is an almost$4 billion a year global fish
producer.
They predominantly do sa salmonand other netted species.
But if you know anything aboutbusiness, you know that if
you're paying somebody else forbait or for ground for fish meal

(39:47):
or fish fish pellets, you'relosing money.
So they bought omega protein tovertically integrate their
company.
Okay?
So now they have their own baitsource, they have their own
food and they continue to sellyou know to all the other food
groups.
The Canadian boat thing, thethe boats are not Canadian, the

(40:11):
boats are American.
However, what Omega did verycleverly was to re-register all
the boats in Delaware under acompany called Alpha, and then
they started at another companycalled something harvesters.
I'm sorry, I'm drawing a blank.
But they considered themselvesAmerican.

(40:32):
Meanwhile, it was somethinglike the brother-in-law of the
Cook family happened to live inAmerica, and they registered
everything in his name.
And it's just a loophole, it'stypical corporate.
I mean, the reason why theythey registered all the boats in
Delaware, obviously, is the taxadvantages.

(40:52):
There's certain, you know,advantages to that.
But so But the Cook family isCanadian.
They're all out of Canada,yeah.
Yeah.
So it's a Canadian company withan American brother-in-law who,
yeah, it has to be in order totake American fish, you have to
be American.
So they figured out a way to doit, and that's what they did.

(41:13):
This is, you know, and therewas a lawsuit last year going
against this, and it and it gottossed for whatever reason.
But they're definitelyexploiting that.
But it it is Americans.
There are Americans inReedville running the boats, and
that's that.

Yeah, it is American.
So it is to be clear, Canadianownership is what everybody
says, even though it'stechnically owned by an
American, but it is staffed.
The people that work there andthe employees are American
citizens.
Yeah.
They are they are just like us,they're just American

(41:53):
commercial fishermen.

Yeah, and they're kind of in their life.
And there is another company,by the way, in the Gulf that is
South African-owned, that alsoowns a Menhaden company, and
them and and Omega fish in theGulf together.
So it's not it's not uncommonfor these foreign companies to

(42:17):
build entities everywhere.
Because they're trying to, youknow, there's there's global
mouths to feed here and money tobe made.

Right.
It would just be cheaper ifwe'd just buy it back.

Yeah, and that was you know when you think
about it.
If I had some rich richfriends, uh they could have come
up with 500 mil and and justbuy out Omega and case closed,
and then the lobster guys wouldhave it'd be rain and bait, you
know.

Right, right.
So what do what are you seeing?
One of the big problems that wehad, I think, is you had all
these these public forums, andthey're always, always going to
be attended by the reductionfleet attorneys and
representatives because they'repaid to do it.
It's a paid business trip.

(43:07):
So it's like, hey, I gotta goto work, you know, this
Thursday.

They were all paid for the day.

Yeah.
So I mean, so they're justgoing to work for the day.
And then yeah, the rec guys.
And that's the difficulty.
I think it's tough enough, andI don't want to mention striped
bass, but I'm going to do itanyway.
That the fish that everybodyloves in the mid-Atlantic and
Northeast got almost nothing tothese forums, right?

(43:35):
I mean, I watched it online.
I didn't even go.
I watched it online because Igot done work and it was too
late to drive down to Bristol.
So I I did the online thing andcommented online, but it's not
the same because there wasn'tanother person standing in front
of anybody.
How many guys did they have atsome of these things from the
the reduction side?

Oh two busloads.

Two busloads versus how many rec
guys that are local?

Yeah, whoever took the day off.

Like 20 people.

They're all retired guys because regular
guys like us are still working,you know.

And that's the thing.
So what so what is it that wecan do for those that are
concerned to help out with thisas rec guys?
Because you know, people arenot, they're probably not going
to want to miss too much workand not get paid for the day to
go out and fight for a fish.
Maybe we should, butrealistically speaking, most

(44:30):
people aren't going to do that.
So what would you recommendpeople do if they want to get
involved at this point?

It's it's really a legislative thing and a
petition thing and a I meanphysically we can't really do
anything.
I mean, you should payattention to, you know, our
website and our calls to actionbecause there are times where

(44:57):
there is a meeting where weshould attend and and we can try
and get the people there.
But this is like we are Davidand they are Goliath.
And it's very, very hard for usto gain traction.
And you know, at this point intime, I I really should bring up
the efforts lately to getPresident Trump's attention.

(45:21):
Yeah.
And I I think that's veryimportant because the this
president is the first presidentthat ever even noticed Men
Hayden.
Okay.
And so there was a video thatwas made that showed the the
squandering of American fish forCanadian profit, and that

(45:42):
caught the president's eye.
And he he immediately put it onTruth Social, and then all of
his father followers put it onTwitter, and there was like a
week of solid noise coming outof the White House, and he has
an executive order in front ofhim to knock down reduction

(46:05):
fishing in the United States.
And all of a sudden, rightafter he put it out, it went to
crickets.
Like something happened.

Right.
Just sitting on the deskunsigned.

Yeah.
And and this is really, I mean,I've been doing this wow
since '96, '95?
No, sorry, 85.
I've been doing this.
And I have never had a doorswing open like this.
That this is a genuineopportunity for for us.

(46:41):
We can go, we can all go on thepresident's website and leave a
comment.
We can all say, hey, you know,you're forgetting the little
guy.
You know, there's a lot atstake here.
And the reality is that ifOmega wasn't around and
reduction fishing didn't exist,we would have what we saw eight

(47:06):
years ago.
Like, it was rain in stripers,it was raining whales, it was
raining offspray.
You know what I mean?
Like, it was unbelievable.
You'd go to South Amboy, NewJersey, and you could walk on
the bunker.

Yeah.

And there'd be whales in the middle of
Raritan Bay.
I I knew guys that were 70, 75years old, they'd never seen
that before.
They've been in Staten Islandall their life, they'd never
seen a frickin' whale.
And all of a sudden they'retaking their grandparents, their
grandkids out to go see whalesin Raritan Bay.

Yeah.

So a little bit of conservation goes a
really long way with these fish.
You just give them a littleshot, you know, like a
three-year, just like whathappened in 2012 when they did
experience a cut, these fishcame back like gangbusters.

unknown (47:56):
Right.

We all said if we're not careful, because so
what did the ASMFC do?
They gave back all the quotathat they took away over the
years, and it became 233.
So you know, the the sciencewas showing them that the stock
was healthy, but unfortunately,the math was wrong.

Now, is this up next year again?
Or is this like a multi-year?
Do they do they look at theMenhaden regs every year and
readjust?
Or I should say the quotasevery year?

Well, this this particular the ruling was
was that they would take 20% forthe 26th season.

Right.

And then at the annual meeting at the end of
26, they would talk about 27and 28.

Well, but that's that's my point.
They so that that's myunderstanding, but they said
they would talk about it.
So, but does it automaticallyrenew at 186 or does it go back
up to the 233?

No, it's gonna be re- Okay, so they have
to resty.

Okay.

Yeah.
All right.
Oh crap.
I I wanted to look upsomething, you know, that would
help.
Because there's so many numbershere.
Like quotes like the thisdecision would still result in a

(49:26):
100% probability of fishingmortality being above the
target.
So it it's just the 186 or the108?
The the the what the the the186.
Yeah.

Yeah.
So that's what doesn't makesense.
Like it it's their own stuff,and they're saying it it has to
be 108.
So let's just make it 186.

That's exactly where I was headed.
Yeah.

I mean, is there any world that
that makes sense?
With here it is.
Uh I gotta show the commentnow.
KCD.
Tried to follow the science andcouldn't.
Then I followed the money andfound the science.
And it it certainly feels likethat's what they're doing.
Like the it the money moneydrops somewhere.

Yeah.

You see, our making a deal, and we
don't know about it.

Menhaden Defenders, as a conservation
organization, looked at the108,000 that would that they
arrived at and said, no, that'snot good enough.
Okay.
So we actually wrote a letterto the ASMFC saying that a more
aggressive cut was needed, andwe wanted to set the 26 to 28 uh

(50:45):
total allowable catch at75,000, which is the current
total allowable couch for thebait industry.
In other words, Omega is is notin the picture, and we're
reallocating all the quota tothe bait fisheries to the bait,
which is making it accept thebait, lobster, crab fisheries,

(51:08):
and totally prohibit Menhadenfishing for reduction purposes.
Now, if you were payingattention during the Menhaden
meeting, there was a scientistthat came out and said that you
can't restore striped basswithout abundant menhaden.
Now, not this comment kind ofwent unnoticed, but I sure

(51:31):
noticed it.
And I know we're trying likehell not to talk about striped
bass, but they are linked, okay?
And the clear reality is thatif there is more striped bass,
if there's more menhaden left inthe water, when these young of
year come out to feed, they'regonna have more food to eat, and
ultimately you have morestriped bass.

(51:52):
Right.
Hope I didn't go too far out ona tangent there.

No, no, and look, you did you did
bring it back to what's gonnapique people's interest, right?
Like the issue with the stripedbass is the recruitment, right?
Right.

Well, well, they're currently overfished.

Yeah, well, but it but a lot of it
was the the recruitment for thelast two years, right?

Is is well the recruitment meaning
recruitment means how many fishmake it into adulthood.

Yeah.

But if you think about it, the young does
the young of year have been badin the Chesapeake for seven
years.

unknown (52:39):
Okay.

Think about that, and it does relate
directly to the populations ofthese high nutrient fish that
are not there, right?
Exactly.
It does relate you.
You and I had again anotherconversation we had offline
about this is you look at birdsof prey and what has happened
with the birds of prey with themenhaden drop, right?
So you don't believe there's amenhaden drop, that's fine, but

(53:02):
there is an anecdotal relatedthing happening with birds of
prey along the coast, and that'sthe eagles and the ospreys.
For the past two years, they'renot laying eggs.
And part of the the belief isthat it's because there aren't
Medhaden, which is their thewhich is the best fish for them
to get in order to be able tosustain eggs and young.

(53:26):
And if they're not there, thenthey don't nest and they don't
have they don't lay eggs, theydon't have babies.
And you know, there's anotherrelated thing to it.
And and it it comes, and butthey don't they they don't need
little fish, they need big fish.
You're not gonna see an eagleor an osprey diving down on a
six-inch peanut bunker, youknow.
They they maybe a six, I don'tknow, six inch is probably too

(53:48):
small.

Yeah.
And season long, you know,people should know every time I
go out, if I come upon a schoolof bunker, I get my little
treble hook out and I snag 10fish, and I measure 10 fish.
And up until last month, I wasmeasuring every single fish at

(54:08):
six or seven inches.
Now I'm measuring every fish atnine inches.
This time of year I should bemeasuring 12 inch and over fish.
Yeah, and they are just notthere.
Okay.
Now we used to look at thesesmall baits as gold, like when
we were live lining and stuff,we're like, oh wow, if you had a
nine-incher, that was like, youknow, if you had a spot that

(54:32):
size, or you know, it was likereally perfect for bait.
Because some of the bait, someof the bunker used to be so big,
it was like, what the hell'sgonna eat this?

Right, exactly.
Yeah, you just toss them back.

They did, they did swallow, no problem.
But in our heads, we're alwayslooking for that that juicy, you
know, that little nugget, youknow.

I used to throw them back because
they were too big for the hooksthat I had tied on.
I was like, I don't want to tieon a new hook, I'll just cast
again and try to snag somethingelse, you know, toss it right
back in.
It's too lazy.
I didn't I wasn't using those12 odd hooks.

Yeah.
Hmm.
Well, where do we go from here?

And and I think that's the thing.
The the look, it's not an easyissue to know where everything
is because again, like we'rewe're relying on science, and it
is a really I mean look, wetalked before this for 35
minutes, and I still feel like Idon't know everything that I
could know, should know.

But that's subject cool.

What's that?

That's what makes the subject cool.
Well, well, you know something?
When when I first got intothis, I never ever would have
predicted that I would be takingpictures of of salmon in Whole
Foods, or doing videos, orlooking at at in-depth pet food
analysis.
Like I didn't, I didn't get it.

(55:56):
I was just a fisherman, youknow?
And then all of a sudden it'slike, holy crap, there's this
protein industry is is epic.
And then so as the world'spopulation grows, by the way,
reduction fishing, it's thesmallest in the world in the
United States.
We're like 12% of the entireworld.

(56:18):
So Peruvian Angevetta iscompletely way bigger than us.
So predominantly the fish oilsand and the uh fish meal is from
that species, not fromMinhayden.
That's just an American thing,you know.
Right.
But if I could just talk for amoment about the how the market

(56:39):
is divvied up, okay.

Yeah, and I think that's important.
I'd like you to, but I willjust say this we don't have the
the size fishery that they'refishing either, right?
I mean, Atlantic Menhaden isnot we don't have the the area
and the populations to supportanything like that.
So while it's 12% of the total,it is 100% of our total.

(57:03):
And and that's that to me iswhere it comes in.
People, you know, Americafirst.
Great.
It's not happening.
It's not happening right now.
And even if it's an Americancompany and it's owned by people
that are 100% American, it'snot American people first.
It's it's one American businessfirst, is the way that I'm
feeling about Omega.
The rest of the stuff I'm stillnot sure about.

(57:26):
Like, you know, I'm still notsure.
Like the bait, I I'm I'm I'mkind of on board with debate
continuing.
I I I really am because itsupports all those other
industries, the crabs andlobsters and all that stuff.
I feel, I feel, I feel thatthat to me, it's difficult for
me to say, shut that down.

(57:46):
Like I would like, I wouldn'twant to see it reduced on Omega
and on them.
I want to see Omega cut all theway until we get to the number.
And then if there's we need anyother cuts, then maybe then
let's have another conversation.
That's just the way that I feelabout it right now.

You need to look at it's the utility of
scale.
Okay.
If you have a a 45-foot boatgoing out for bunker versus a
196-foot boat, yeah, that initself is a sign.
Yeah.
So we have never, we havealways been a supporter of

(58:23):
family-owned small commercialfishing.
We feel that that is the thefabric of the United States.
That's what this country wasbuilt on.
Okay.
There's no reason for us toassault them because they're not
doing anything wrong.
It's God, my brain just spinswhen I talk about this stuff.

Yeah, but I would say I don't know
that on the water.
I don't know that it's gonnasound bad.
I don't know that Omega's doinganything wrong.
They're doing what they'reallowed to do.
It's the question is shouldthey be allowed to do it?

No, it's not a matter of illegal or legal.
It's a matter of adjusting yourharvest to the ecological
conditions.
And right now, our ecologicalconditions suck.
Yes.
Like, like I say this all thetime.
Our coast, our our entirecoastal ecosystem, including the

(59:25):
Chesapeake Bay, is dying adeath of a thousand cuts.
So now is not the time to lookfor maximum sustainable yield of
the most important fish in thesea.
Right.
It's wrong.
Okay, and and all the time youhear Omega talking about what a
good steward they are of theresource, and they planted one
of their old boats as a reef.

(59:47):
Well, that's wonderful.
But you know what?
When a million guys are saying,get the F out of the Chesapeake
Bay and stop netting and takingall these fish out because the
bay is dying.
They turn a blind ear.
They go, Hey, you know, mygrandfather fished this.
It was no problem.
Well, you know what?
There weren't all the otherconditions happening at the same

(01:00:07):
time.
Right.
So, in that, yes, thepopulation is shrinking, the
water is changing, the climateis changing, all these factors,
and they have to change too.
You can't focus.
You gotta shift to algae, shiftto whatever, you know?
Sure.
But you can't keep raping andpillaging because you're gonna

(01:00:28):
wake up one day, and guess what?
There's gonna be nothing there.
Our whole mission in thebeginning was to have a lobster
man in Maine be able to send hiskid out in the morning for
bait.
Okay?
That was like we were all wewanted to do was expand that
biomass that was currently inthe mid-Atlantic, that was very

(01:00:51):
small, and grow it.
And sure enough, it did.
But it also got warmer.
So in the 20 years that I'vebeen doing this, the
temperatures have changed, andthose older, bigger fish are now
in the Gulf of Maine.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fis (01:01:07):
Yeah.

Capt. Paul Eidman (01:01:07):
So guess what?
Maine is finally able to gettheir own bait.
But guess what?
That pisses off Lunds in NewJersey because that bites into
the profit that they can send upto Maine, which is why they
side with Omega.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fi (01:01:25):
Right.
Well, I'll I'll side with theuh the the lobster guy in Maine
every time.

Exactly.

Yeah, and and like I said, I'm a
capitalist, I'm all about makingmoney.
But that's gonna go with thesmall guy.

But it's in moderation.

Yeah.

unknown (01:01:40):
Yeah.

You know, if they know that they only have a
a a certain amount, like let'ssay they have 3,000 traps,
they're only gonna take acertain amount of fish.
Because these things go, thesethings spoil the moment the
clock is ticking.
You know, the ran the rancidityrate on bunker is extremely
high.

We're all rec guys, we know that.
Yeah, you don't leave it out ondeck at all.
You leave it on you leave it ondeck, you're done.
You're done with it.
All right, go back beforebecause we're we're at our hour,
but I want you to go back tothe the total size of the
reduction fishing and and howthat relates.
Total size of Yeah, so we'rewe're 12% of what's out there in

(01:02:22):
reduction fishing in the UnitedStates.
How does that compare to toother countries and other you
know?

Oh, I I can't give you statistics on Peru,
but the reason why I bring thatup is because even Peru sets
limits on how many anchovetathey can bring in.
We don't do that.
There there's no limit in theGulf of Mexico for Menhaden.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad F (01:02:47):
There's no limit.

There's a limit here on the East Coast,
but there's none in the in theGulf.
So that's reckless, you know?

Yeah, it sure feels that way.
Do they do do they do the samestudies down there on the
population?

I think they do, yeah.

Yeah, okay.

Yeah, but I would need to spend some time uh
in South America before I couldreally speak on that.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing (01:03:12):
I was gonna say, you got any
spare time now?

But Peruvian Anchovetta is and it's basically
a small anchovy, it's like athree or four-inch fish.
So you need a lot of them tocome out of the water.
But they have a whole, youknow, an anchoveta lawmakers,
and they sit there and go, okay,we're gonna we're gonna get to
a certain point and then stopthe fishery, because otherwise

(01:03:34):
we're not gonna have any fishfor fishery in the future.

Right.
Like they do with the crabs upin Alaska.

It's it's the same thing.
Yeah, yeah.
But but you know something?
If we're gonna try and makesense out of commercial fishing
and the logic, you know, I'm I'ma c I'm a catch and release
fisherman.
I do eat fish.
I don't eat every fish.
I don't eat striped bassbecause I know that they're
overfished, and that would behypocritical of me to eat a

(01:04:01):
striped bass.
You know what I'm saying?
Like I'll eat a black sea bassinstead.

Right.

You know, I'll I'll purposely go for a
food fish if I need food.
But I I won't shoot myself inthe foot.
It it certainly we have enoughexamples, whether it's cod or or
you the list is endless.
Yeah, it's everything we usedto fish for.
You just fish till you can't.
Right.
You know, and and that doesn'tmake sense to me.

(01:04:26):
You gotta have moderation,otherwise you have no future.

Yeah.
I I it's always the guys thatsay, I remember we used to just
bail bluefish and throw them intrash cans, and we get back and
we'd clean as many until we gottired and dump the rest out.
So I'm gonna keep doing that.
It's like, didn't you learnanything from that?
We used to throw them in trashcans too on the boat.
We used to clean them all andeat them and give them away, but
doesn't mean it was right,didn't mean it happened.

I can tell you that after the first striped
bass moratorium, we we werewatching and we said, if we are
not careful, the same exactthing is gonna happen over
again.
Now I'm gonna show my age here,okay?
But we saw it coming.
And look where we are rightnow.

Yeah.
We're there.
We are it's this is where youand I diverge a little bit.
I again go back to the numbers,and I think that we're gonna
have better numbers next yearwith the the data collection on
the striped bass.
But I do believe that there isthere's something that needs to
get figured out.

I you know what, I I don't think we're that
far apart.
I I don't agree with managingfish with arithmetic.
Okay, I believe that we allneed to behave like deer hunters
and we all need to have a apiece of the data collection.
In other words, when you and Igo kayak fishing and we we get

(01:05:55):
four and they're all 25 inchesand we throw them back, that's
data.
When you and I go fishing forsix hours and don't catch
anything, that's data.
That's important data.
That data is not beingcollected.
I mean, it it is, I shouldn'tsay it's not being collected.

(01:06:15):
It's the system is is is screwyright now and they're using it
to extrapolate numbers.
Yeah like like they just cameout with this mortality number
that they adjusted down from 9%to 4%.
I can tell you right now thatif my mortality rate on my catch
and release boat was 4%, Iwouldn't do it.

(01:06:38):
That's too high.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishin (01:06:40):
It is, it is, yeah.

You know, but if I'm running a six-pack chart
and everybody's got eels andand and bleeding fish all over
the place, that is way higherthan nine percent.
So, you know, you gotta.
I mean, I'm pretty hardcore,you know.
I have no barbs, I don't have Ihave thousands of lures on my
boat, not a single barb.
I got rubber nets, I have fourseps, you know.

(01:07:04):
I treat these things like goldwhen they come on board.
So it's totally different on mylittle charter boat than it is
on a headboat, you know, runningon Welmar.

Yeah, yeah, and it's I it is a tough
topic, the strike bass,especially.
Yeah, I again I I was okay withthe status quo.
I I kind of like the status quobecause I want to see the I do
want to see the data though,because they screwed it up so
bad before I want to see whereit is.

(01:07:34):
I don't necessarily know thatMenhaden is in that same
category though, becauseMenhaden, first of all, it's a
foundational block.

Right.
Well, that's why we shifted itto ecosystem-based management
because it doesn't fit.
It it doesn't every single fishthat the ASMFc manages in the
history of the ASMFC has alwaysbeen done by how much fish does
the commercial fishery need, andthen everybody else.

Right.

They work backwards.

Yeah, you know, well, and they don't
they don't even collect.
They didn't even collect forthe striped ass, all the the the
charter captains.
They require them to keep thelogs and then they never look at
them.

Yeah, I've heard that.
A lot of New York guys, I thinkthat they always talk about
this this mysterious box of ofdata that that sits somewhere in
in somewhere in Wood's hole.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishin (01:08:26):
It doesn't it doesn't make any
sense to me, but it it does kindof because it is a government
organization.
So okay, you know, I get it.
You spent you spent two milliondollars to create a a website
that anybody any anybody that'smy age could probably do in 10
minutes.
You know, it took what it tookElon one day.

(01:08:48):
Yeah, you know, just as anexample, one day they fixed the
website that they had spent twomillion dollars on and they
couldn't get it working becauseit was broken.
You know, it's stuff like that.
It's and it's not a pro Elon,not a negative anything thing.
It's just that's government,that's how it works.
So I'm just mistrustful of it.

If if we're getting close to our time, yeah,
I would be remiss to say thatyou know, Menhaden Defenders is
is a real grassroots boots onthe ground organization.
And we're made up of birders,we're made up of fishermen,
we're made up of fly fishermen,bait fishermen, everything.
And all we want to see is isabundance and sustainability.

(01:09:30):
That's our goal, okay?
And and we can't do it withouteverybody's participation, you
know.
Like when you go on the websiteor you go on the the Facebook
page, it's not enough just tolurk around, you know, that's
not helping anything.
You should really be asking,hey, what like you did?
Like what can we do?

(01:09:51):
Where are we at right now?
You know?
And right now I do believe thatwe're at the point where we
have to appeal to the Secretaryof Commerce, who is over the
ASMFC and NOAA, and we have tosay, look.
Very funny, Paulsy.
Well, we have to say, look,we're we're at a critical point

(01:10:14):
right now, okay?
And we need your help.
And if we need to rewrite theexecutive order or however it
was written, it's not tweakedcorrectly, or whatever it is,
let's do this.
But just know that if youoverfish and remove every
Menhaden, it it's the end.
Right.

Yeah.

That's it.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishi (01:10:35):
All right.
Well, so everybody, it's it'sMenhaden Defenders uh on dot
org, but on Facebook.
Uh so if you if you'reinterested, go check it out.
There's a lot of information onthere.
You can kind of get lost in thein there just learning.
Um, and I've I've gone throughit many times over the past
couple years.

(01:10:55):
Um I want to thank you forcoming on.
I do appreciate it.
Uh it's great information.
And look, we all like to talkabout how to catch more fish,
but every once in a while weneed to stop and talk about uh
what do we need to do to makesure we can continue to catch
fish.
And I think this is no matterwhere you land on this, uh
whether you're a commercial guy,whether even if you're an omega

(01:11:18):
guy, you should be concernedabout the numbers.

And uh if I'm deeply, deeply concerned about
our hobby.

Yeah, yeah.
Well, the hobby for for me andthe the income for so many other
people.
So uh Paul, if you would hangon after we after we end this.
Everybody, uh thanks for tuningin.
Next week, we're going back toless serious, but more serious,
because we're gonna have FrankMahalik on and we're gonna talk

(01:11:46):
about TOG because that is comingup quick.
And uh Frank is up in RhodeIsland right now catching double
digits, so he's gonna be backfresh off of a trip, hopefully
with a lot of energy.
And uh, we're gonna go throughTOG fishing right as we're
coming up to the New Jerseyopener, uh, where it's gonna
start getting good in New Jerseyand South coming up.
Uh, and then we're gonnaannounce a few more guests next

(01:12:10):
week.
Everyone, thanks for coming in.
And if you're going to do thetog trip on the uh on the osprey
out of Atlantic City onDecember 7th, I think there's
only 10 or less spots left.
So make sure you sign up forthat now.
The the boat is almost full.
Uh and if you're gonna go, letme know.
It would be nice to know who'sgoing and meet everybody out

(01:12:31):
there on the boat.
So, with that said, everyone,thanks for tuning in.
We'll be back next Monday.
Until next week, get out there,get on the water and get some
tight lines.

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