June 30, 2025 • 57 mins
In this powerful episode of Fatherhood Unscripted, we’re closing out Men’s Mental Health Month with a raw, honest, and incredibly moving conversation with Joe Tuia’ana of the I Love You Bro Project.Joe opens up about the real struggles men face, why messaging like “man up” is so damaging, and how creating sacred, safe spaces for vulnerability is the key to healing. We talk fatherhood, breaking generational patterns, and what it really means to listen to our kids.Whether you're a dad, a friend, or someone fighting your own mental health battles, this episode will resonate. You are not alone.In this episode:Joe’s take on why men don’t open upThe cost of toxic messaging like “man up” and “lions not sheep”How to become a trusted listener for your kidsThe power of admitting “I’m sorry,” “I love you,” “I was wrong,” and “I need help”How to hold sacred space for real conversation👉 Learn more about the I Love You Bro Project: https://loveyoubroproject.org👉 Join our FREE dad community: Rooted in Brotherhood – for faith-filled dads growing together, sharing real talk, and leaving a legacy for our kids. Click here to join: https://www.facebook.com/groups/282732511309028/If you got value from this conversation:👍 Like the video💬 Share your thoughts in the comments🔔 Subscribe for more honest, faith-based conversations about fatherhood, men’s mental health, and personal growth
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Hey everyone, welcome back to Fatherhood Unscripted.
Today we're closing out Men's Mental Health month with a
powerful, raw, and deeply honestconversation.
We're welcoming back our friend Joe to Ayana from I Love You Bro
Project. If you've heard of Joe before,
you know he doesn't hold back. And in this episode, we dive
into real struggles men face, from shame and negative self
talk to damaging phrases like man up and lions, not sheep.
(00:23):
We talked about breaking generational cycles, creating
sacred spaces where our kids feel safe to talk, and what it
means to be a trusted listener. As a dad, this isn't a surface
level conversation. It's the kind of vulnerable talk
that so many of us need but rarely get.
If you're a dad, a husband, a friend, or just someone
navigating your own mental health, this one's for you.
So settle in, and let's end Men's Mental Health Month with a
(00:45):
real conversation that matters. I just like being with you guys.
You guys are really exceptional listeners and that will always
be especially if you can be a trusted listener.
There's a big difference. I added I was on an interview
with a guy podcast interview where you mentioned, you know, I
don't want to be my kids friend.You know, I want to be their
(01:07):
dad. And and I think instead of
saying that even I would say I don't want to be my kids friend,
I want to be their trusted listener, which doesn't have an
attachment of dad or you know this, you know, you know,
relationship. It just is a trusted listener
that I've created space for specifically.
(01:29):
Well, I think that's an issue like a lot of us has grown up
with is, you know, some of us that have daddy issues like our
dad was full time work mode, like wasn't really there.
And so that's why we all are growing up now.
I'm like, all right, what do we do?
And so, yeah, that's a good thing because even with my son
recently, it's always, he just wants to hang out, play video
games. Like buddy, listen, we're we're
(01:52):
I'm your dad. I'm here for you.
But like, I don't want to play video games all the time.
Listen, you can do with your friends, but same time, like I
need to find that place where it's not like it'd be like my
dad works like, all right, he doesn't want to do anything with
me. We need to find that moment.
And like you said, just to be a good listener and be there for
my son. So that way when he's older, he
wants to come back home. And because you know, Dad will
(02:12):
listen the the ultimate, the ultimate thing is having my kids
want to hang out with me or and Even so like having their
friends over at our house and they all want to hang around it.
It's it is the ultimate compliment as a dad, you know,
and I don't know how old your guys kids are.
Mine are mine had one that just got home from a mission 8 months
(02:34):
ago. She's 21.
I have one that's 18 and I have one that's almost 16.
And they're like always wanted to be around me, you know, and
and they really are my best friends, but also are your my
relationship with them, you know, as it evolves, develops,
you know, it used to be, I used to be more that, you know, I am
your dad, you know, and this andthat as you trying to teach
(02:57):
correct principles. But now I'm at the point where
I'm on the other side of the statement.
Let them govern themselves mentality where I can just see
the the work that I did before, I can see the mistakes that I've
made before and how I failed forward through them.
And then now it's manifesting through just very cool, very
(03:19):
transparent, very, you know, laid back.
Not laid back to the point whereit's lazy, but laid back where I
can just take a step back and bejust thankful and just be
grateful now. It's that I did it right.
Yeah, yeah. Jasmine and my wife and I were
(03:40):
talking about actually last night, just being able to 1, you
know, create that safe place foryour kids so they can come back.
They know that, you know, they can talk to you about anything
and there's no judgements. There's no like you're going to
yell at them. You're just going to be that,
like you said, active listener, just tell me everything that's
going on in your life. If you want advice, I'll give
(04:00):
you the advice as they get olderthat what you said like let them
govern themselves. Like what's the fact that you
taught them well enough to get through the consequences of
life, to get through like make the right decisions?
I think for me growing up, growing up in a religious home,
I was told all the things not todo.
(04:23):
They didn't trust me with anything to make those decisions
on my own or that they taught mewell enough to think on my own.
And so getting into adulthood, like now I have to think on my
own. I'm like, I don't know how to do
this because, like, one, it was like they thought for me, but
two, like, yeah. So just being able to trust the
(04:44):
process, trust that you did it right and trust that God's going
to lead them in the right direction.
Like I think a lot of times we, we don't, we don't let, we don't
let God be God. We just, we want to take control
of things and we just got to letgo and like let go and let God.
I know that's a cliche like saying, but that's honestly what
you have to do with your kids. Yeah, very real.
(05:07):
And and I think there is anotherside of, you know, that
communication with our kids. What I've learned is that you
have to to to even to get to thestep to be an entrusted
listener, You have to be a what I would describe as a proactive
(05:29):
question asker, you know, and it's got to be a good it's got
there got to be good questions. They're going to be the
conversation starters. I don't know if you guys have
read that book. It's awesome.
It's by Jefferson Fisher is called starting a conversation,
(05:50):
I think, and it's not that long of a book, but it's how it's how
to argue effectively and kindly and how to ask really good
questions in difficult moments. I read it and just to help me
with my groups, but I was like, dude, this is going to help me
with just freaking life with my kids and you know, and things
like that. And so I've learned that, man,
(06:11):
if you instead of this the standard, how was your day?
It's tell me about this. So the way you start the
question, which which it's just to not ask yes or no, just to
not ask the ones that are just the standard.
And, and it's also what I teach to women who are asking, you
(06:31):
know, how do I get my man to open up a little bit?
I'm like, the best thing to do is to start with, you know, tell
me about this. You know, I admire the way you
handled this. Tell me how you went through
that. You know, things that it's
you're starting with a compliment and then it's leading
(06:52):
to a question, which then startsopening up stuff.
And then so, you know, if you're, if you're being A to be
an act of intentional trusted listener, you got to have to
listen to something, you know, And so if they're not opening
up, especially these kids, bro, they're not opening up.
It's because they think you either don't care, you don't
(07:14):
you're not listening or that in the past that they've been, you
know, discarded what they've what they've said and what
they've shared, which is very similar to the reason why men
don't open up of those these ourkids are internalizing things.
Well, my parents are not going to support me.
Then I'll just support me or my friends will listen and support
(07:37):
me there. You know, it's a very close Bros
to the data we have on men. Why they don't open up is very
similar to the, you know, to theway that these kids are thinking
in those teen years, those volatile, chaotic, fricking
emotions that are developing, you know, in their brains and in
their hearts. And so, yeah, I for me, what has
(07:58):
been super successful is being able to ask difficult questions
and have my kids be able to givedifficult answers and, and me be
able to handle those answers to hold the space that I have with
my kids. It's sacred space.
(08:20):
It's this, this space that you develop this.
I tell the guys in Group this isour, this space is, is like
dedicated set apart, whatever you want to call it as sacred
space for vulnerability and sharing.
My kids know the space that we have between us.
It's sacred. How I, it makes me cringe when I
(08:41):
hear guys tell me about like stuff that's happening with
their wives and stuff that like are like negative, like, just
like, like I'm like, do they know that you're talking about
this? You know, do, do, do your kids,
have you have your kids permission to share some of this
stuff? You know, like it, it just makes
me hurt a little bit for those people because it isn't a sacred
(09:04):
space. Clearly it's not been treated as
such or, or, you know, started in nurtured as such.
And so I, I do really lean into that using that exact verbiage.
This is sacred space. And those words are powerful to,
to people that you can trust, you can trust me.
(09:26):
And let's start there. And let's start with some, you
know, difficult, simple, difficult questions, you know,
and then take the answers, you know, for what they are and own,
own the answers, you know, even if they're hurtful.
Do you bro, own the answers, ownthe emotions that are, you know,
come where they're coming from and up?
(09:47):
Dude, let's just start here. I think that's like a lot of
parents, like when you say that I think they don't want to own
those emotions because kids are truthful, unfortunately, and
they will tell us things we don't want to hear about
ourselves. And then as soon as we hear a
lot of the times it just triggers that.
All right, you're I don't want to hear this crap.
And they just stop listening to their kids when in honesty,
(10:10):
that's how we're going to grow as parents is by listening to
our kids because that's they need to, they're telling us what
we need to hear, you know? Hey, man, that's a good word,
man. Yeah.
And we, I think we're products of, you know, of course, our
parents, you know, their goods and their bads.
And we try to take the best fromeach and try to piece together a
freaking Voltron power Ranger, you know, something of a dad in
(10:34):
ourselves parent. And then, you know, but a part
of those that Voltron is, isn't so great, you know, that we're,
we're inheriting and you know, that we've been kind of
programmed to, to be. And then the, the difficult of
part of them being able to tell us, hey, that Voltron, that
tiger on your arm, that lion on your arm ain't working, bro.
(10:54):
It's hurting my feelings. It's, you know, I don't like it.
And you know, for me to be like,dude, I got to cut this arm off.
I got to, you know, I got to, you know, redevelop some new
muscle, certain places of my life and parenting.
And I, I think we don't want to hear, it's tough to hear that
stuff. We don't want to freaking hear
(11:15):
that. Yeah, you're you're wrong.
You, you know, isn't that tough for you guys are here, man,
that's wrong. You, you hurt my feelings.
Walls come up defensive. You know, this, that or the
other. Yeah, and instead of getting
defensive too, like it's it's about validating their emotions
(11:35):
because their emotions, regardless of like what you
intended or how you wanted it togo, it doesn't make their
feelings go away or their emotions go away.
Their emotions are real and they're valid.
So it's like validating like, Ohmy gosh, I'm so sorry that like
I made you feel that way. Here's what I meant by what I
(11:57):
said. I never meant to hurt you.
So I apologize that I came across that way.
And I'm going to do better moving forward on how I
communicate my body language, the words I use.
But in, you know, a lot of us like, whoa, I didn't say it like
that. Your, your, your thinking's all
(12:18):
wrong. And you start to once they know
that their feelings won't be validated, they don't want to
come to you. They'll go to their, their
friends who will validate their emotions.
Oh my gosh, he said that to you.He made you feel that way.
Forget that guy. That's exactly what the friends
are going to say. They're going to validate their
emotions. So us as dads, we need to be
that safe place where they can come to us with their emotions.
(12:41):
And we say, you know what, you're right.
Like I, I mean, I didn't mean to, for that to come across that
way, but it is like my, my 4 year old going on five, he will
call me out on things. Dad, it's not cool to yell.
You know what, buddy? You're right.
I got to take a step back. Like, Oh my gosh, I am yelling.
(13:01):
I am getting frustrated. Dad, you need to take a deep
breath. Oh, you're right, buddy.
I do need to take a deep breath.So it's it's, it's it's cool.
Like your kids will be the most raw with you.
And that's what we need. We don't need people sugar
coating things so that the otherperson will feel better about
themselves. You need to tell me how you're
(13:22):
feeling so that I know, so that we can make this relationship
better. Yeah, good word.
I mean, what are the the three most difficult things meant?
You know, I'm sorry, I love you.I was wrong and I need help.
Those those those four things are probably the most difficult
(13:45):
things for us has been to say and to be able to have, you
know, especially, I mean four years old.
They can say they just about getaway with anything, you know,
saying, but at least he's getting, you know, he's getting
away with saying things that arepretty true, you know, and then
he'll learn grace as he gets older, you know, he'll learn
(14:06):
empathy. And then then it will be start
hopefully, you know, developing into suddenly you just got this
guy who's just emotionally in control.
And you know, we can, I have a question that I pose an ice
breaker for each group just to start conversation.
And one that I love to ask all the groups is, you know,
describe, describe and only using 3 words, what a man should
(14:33):
be. Just three single words, no
hyphens, no nothing. Give me 3 words.
There's so many. And it's a very difficult
question. So that it forces these guys to,
and I give them a minute to think about just three
individual words to, to describewhat the perfect man would be.
And the ones that you know, I the ones that always come up for
(14:59):
me because there's again, it's so difficult, but for me, I, the
the ones that I always come up is kind, driven and disciplined.
Those those three things from mepeople.
Well, they throw in love, you know, they throw in you can so
many respectful, you know, hard working or whatever.
(15:20):
There's so many to two. And none of them are wrong, you
know, really for me. And but it then it makes me
evaluate, OK, am I those three things?
You know, I ask, you know, how close are you Yeah, to to being
those. What are you doing?
What, what work are you putting in to be those three things?
Can you describe yourself with those 3 words?
(15:45):
And so, you know, being, you know, in recovery, alcohol
discipline is that's what I haveto not discipline as in I'm
going to smack you around or youknow, that kind.
Obviously that has, you know, you want to be disciplined that
way, but disciplined more from the fact that, you know, I have
control over my emotions. I have control over my habits
(16:10):
and and those things. You know, of course I love the
word kind to me that emphasizes love.
It kind of insinuates love in its own way.
Then then I have the word drivenfor me too, just because I, I
want to have, I want to get up and get going to do good, you
(16:33):
know, actively, proactively doing good in the world and as a
parent in the home and whatnot. And so it's something maybe you
guys can, you guys can think about right now and see if you
guys can give me 3, three words that you'd, you'd like to be
just just from my example, you know, we've given them there's
(16:57):
no wrong answers. And I think, but the idea is,
you know, I ask it up front, what do you, you know, what are
the three words? And then afterwards, it's like,
how close are you guys to be in those three?
Would you describe yourself as those three things?
And for me, it's I, I'm, I'm actively working on, I think
discipline is, is what I do now.I have a very good control over
(17:23):
many things that I did not have control over in my life that I
had that we need to have controlover.
I have as far as kindness, it's increased dramatically through
my work with I Love You Bro Project and the constant hearing
of broken hearts and the constant of having a broken
heart, being humbled. It's been helping with being
(17:45):
kind to others. And then the drive part probably
is where I need the most work, being able to be driven in all
aspects of my life and not just as a parent and not just as a
needs to be there for physical fitness needs to be there.
Just, you know, I was attached to discipline.
(18:06):
You know that drive to be to be better in in every aspect of my
life. Yeah, I would.
I mean, I can go first. I would say present because I
mean that's something growing upthat my dad wasn't.
I want to make sure that I'm present in all aspects and show
my kids that. I love that love.
I think drive to, I think I can work a little bit more on drive,
(18:28):
but like I feel like everything I put myself into, I try and
tend to put all myself into it. So I think drive and then for
the third honest, I guess I think I would use because I
mean, you know, goes your life just found out non facts that
would suck. And I feel like I tend to just
(18:48):
tell people me, you know, I wantto be me everywhere, Not Oh,
this is a different guy on the podcast than he has been a dad,
you know, so just. So some transparency there.
Yeah, for for me, one word. This is because I grew up in a
chaotic home, but peaceful. Like I want there to be so much
(19:10):
peace in the home. That's yeah, peaceful.
That's awesome. Loving obviously.
Like I just want to love my kidsand Jasmine.
So my kids names, I like to say their names because I don't like
to just call them my kid. So Jasmine, Nathaniel, Elijah
and Ryland because they're all their own identity.
(19:33):
And then just confident. So I know I growing up and well
into adulthood, even still now, I don't walk around with as much
confidence as I should. And I was just telling Jasmine
this just the other night, actually, that part of my like,
(19:54):
well, one, I didn't know I had ADHD until I was basically 30.
I found out I had ADHD. Well, that came with a lot of
masking over the years because Ithought, you know.
Man, people don't seem like they're struggling as much as I
am, but I have to keep up with them.
So I just masked everything and that turned into people
(20:15):
pleasing. So I would just to fit in with
everybody, I would, you know, become a chameleon and I'd fit
in wherever and everybody, you know, well, it feels good.
People are liking me. And so now, you know, to, you
know, present day, I find myselflike, kind of like not wanting
(20:37):
to be confident in who I am because I don't want to come
across cocky or you don't want somebody to think I'm arrogant
and not like me. But that's something that I'm,
that I am actually working on right now And today, like
confidence, just knowing who I am.
I, you know, we're our own worstcritic.
But Jasmine brought up to me, she's like, the one thing I
(20:59):
dislike about you the most is the fact that you're positive
when it comes to everybody else.When it comes to you, you're the
most negative person in the entire world.
And it hit hard because I'm like, you're right.
I tell myself, you know, oh, I'ma terrible dad.
I'm this, I'm that, you know, people give me a compliment.
(21:22):
I think they're just projecting their own self onto me.
So I take the compliment and throw it right back to him,
like, oh, oh, you're a handsome guy.
Oh, thank you. You're, you're, you know, I just
like, throw it back to me. You're handsome, you know, like
I, I don't want to take that compliment.
I don't believe that about myself.
And so now it's about taking compliments, saying thank you.
You're like, you're right. Like I like, I, I play the bass
(21:44):
for my church. So I like, I people say, oh,
you're a great bass player. And now I'm taking like, oh, you
know what? I am a great bass player.
You're right. I do have a, a set of skills
that I'm I'm appreciative that you're noticing it and just just
that kind of where I'm at. That was a long winded question
to what you're asking, but. Yeah, that's.
(22:06):
Where I'm at today, yeah. No, I think it it, it sparks
conversation. And so we have these, most of my
ice breaker questions that ask the groups come from
conversations that I've had withmy kids.
So we'll have, as they get a little older, your kids, they,
(22:27):
you know, it's, they start so sharp, they know what's going
on. And, you know, as they get
older, they're smarter and smarter, you know, which puts
sometimes us knuckleheads at a disadvantage.
But we'll have these debates, arguments about very good, kind
(22:47):
debates on things like things like this.
Well, OK, well, you know, if youcould only we love the three
word things. So we'll see if you can only
describe, you know, a perfect marriage, what you want in a
marriage or your spouse lists three things that you want in
your spouse that are one word. And then we're we're saying
(23:10):
we're having this conversation like we are have, you know, me
and my kids like we're having here.
And then you find yourself, wow,we're sharing a lot.
It's not even you know, it left the question a long time ago.
You know, we're actually talkingabout other things at the same
time when we're having this conversation.
So again, another great just another great thing to to have
(23:31):
in our toolbox as men is to be able to ask really good
questions. That's spawn great conversation.
And then we're suddenly, bro, we're suddenly we're doing so
many things at one time. We're building a great, we had a
better relationship with our kids.
We're building trust and and we're opening space and creating
(23:53):
space that's sacred. And then we ourselves are
finding more value in ourselves.You know, from I am AI am a good
dad. I am a good look at this site.
Look at this. Look what I just did.
I just had this awesome conversation with my kids, you
know, or look at this, you know,I just apologized to my kid when
I, when I was wrong, I and I admitted it and wow, look at,
(24:17):
look at what I did right there. That makes you know, I am a good
dad. I am failing forward, you know,
and so I again, I like what you were saying, bro.
It's like I am a good bass player, you know, I do have
qualities that everyone else cansee, but freaking me, you know,
and I know you guys remember probably from our last
(24:38):
conversation, you know, it's something, right?
I haven't checked the numbers, but I think we're probably 75%
of the men who come into our groups.
The number one challenge, 75% isself hate.
It is self talk about ourselves.So if we're talking about that,
7 1/2 of these dudes out of 10 are doing exactly that.
(24:59):
They're just, they cannot own any part of a compliment.
They cannot for themselves. And you know, they're they're so
quick. These guys are, you know, nine
of them are just rallying aroundthe one.
Oh, you are just amazing. You are incredible pointing out
all their, you know, qualities and all the the great things
about them. And then the the one just I
(25:21):
don't get it. Thanks, guys.
You know, can't take a compliment, can't take absorb
that, you know, they feel the love, but they can't feel it
necessarily for themselves, you know?
Yeah. And so the, the idea that we
can, we have permission to love ourselves and we, we have
(25:41):
permission when we should give permission to, to love ourselves
a little bit more. And I think society said, Oh,
you, you love yourself. Oh, someone who says you, oh,
they're so arrogant, you know, they're So what a what a
douchebag, you know, Oh, there, you know what I'm saying?
Like, if you see that when, like, why can't you just look at
(26:01):
that as in like, thank you, Jesus.
Some of us can love ourselves, you know, and at least somewhat
proud enough that we can say, you know what, I am a good
person. I'm not as bad as I think that I
am. I am freaking human.
I'm not a freaking robot, you know, like I, I actually have
(26:23):
emotions and I can identify them, recognize them and I can
own them. Like that's valuable.
That's such a valuable knowledgethat we can have.
Is that like, like men are that they might have joy, not
freaking men are that they mightbe freaking miserable all the
time. You know, and I think when we
(26:44):
hear it from other men, it's it connects on a whole new level.
It's like hearing I love you from your wife.
Correct me if I'm wrong, fellows.
Your wife says, oh, I love you, honey.
And you're like, oh, I love you too.
And then it's lots of times it'sjust it's just that, you know,
it, it hits a little differentlywhen your kids say it.
You know, it's AI think for me, it's the next level, you know?
(27:08):
Oh, I love you too. Yeah, Yeah.
You know, to me, it's like that's probably the apex of it.
But when you can, when you actually have another dude, you
know, a bro who can, you literally are having this
vulnerable, awesome conversationand you're both connecting on
(27:31):
this level that you know, you, you it's very rare, you know,
for for men to have, but you're really super connected.
And then at the end you're like,you know what, man, I love you.
It it resonates at a level that a spouse can.
I don't think it's not their fault.
They cannot provide. It's just a different type.
(27:53):
That connection, brotherly connection.
There's a love behind it that iscannot be duplicated or
manufactured, you know, from social media or from, you know,
if we were having this conversation, if we're all three
of us were together having this conversation, it would just
multiply by, you know, when we're, you know, in person.
(28:15):
But it's, it is something that alot of us are lacking.
You guys who have like you 2, obviously you, you love each
other as brothers. You wouldn't be doing this if if
you didn't, Honestly, I wouldn'tbe.
There's no chance that I would be able to do something like you
guys are doing and not love, absolutely love the pro that I'm
(28:36):
doing it with. And so if we can start by saying
some of that stuff, you know, and start by saying like guys
say you say it all, you say it to everybody, Joe, it doesn't
mean anything, right? Hit me every single time I say
it ever since that overpass, bro, it's, it's, it's been
(28:58):
something different. And so for me I, I will say, I
will say it's all these guys andI'll say it to you guys and I'll
say it to anyone who's listening.
I do. I love you, bro.
It's, it's a connection that I have that God is so great for me
that he put me in a situation where I, my heart could grow 3
sizes that day, you know, and, and the next day I was a Grinch
(29:22):
before that, but it to a point where it like, why can't we just
be a little bit more vulnerable to each other, connect on
awesome level and, and have thatbe something normal.
I think something, so something DJ uses that we were taught our
youth pastor taught us growing up was he would always say I
love you, God loves you, and there's nothing you can do about
(29:44):
that. And so he started saying that
then of our podcast now he started using that more.
So that's something we've grown up with too.
His name was Eddie Johnson, amazing man.
And so that was something we were brought up with her.
Youth pastor that. Kind of instilled in US, you
know, that love is the first. I was unconditional.
Secondly, like you don't have tobe related.
(30:07):
You don't have to be in relationship with someone.
Like you can, Jen, you can like just love somebody because you
love them. Like, I think that's something
that's gotten mixed up in society nowadays.
Like, oh, you love that guy? Like, no, like, no.
Yeah, I do. Generally.
I love that. Man, yeah, you got a problem
with it, right? I mean, that's, that's me, you
know? Yeah, of course I do.
(30:28):
It's like a dude that's a that'ssuch a douche comment.
Like, you know, I know we, we have those guys, those lions,
not sheep guys who who kind of like like the Jim bro dude.
And I'll tell you the lions thatwe have that coming to our
support groups, which are many. They are the first ones leaning
(30:50):
on our sheep on a sheep. And there are some values and
attributes about sheep, if that's what you want to call us
that are spectacular and and meant to be, you know,
God-given, you know, that we heard together, man, like we're
(31:10):
not volatile. You know, God did it.
You know, the Good Shepherd doesn't lead lions.
You know, he leads you need sheep.
And so when you have a mentalityor it's yeah, you got to it's an
intimidator that that it's divisive between, you know, men
(31:31):
who who OK, this is alpha male mentality.
And if you're not thinking, kill, kill, lead, lead, destroy
whoever gets in your way and they'll step on them that that's
so freaking unhealthy. And if you I don't naturally
have that instinct, you know, I do.
(31:52):
I am. If I were to describe anything,
I would be absolutely. I would take the the sheep over
the lion. You can have lions have some
good qualities, a few that you would love to have the strength
and the pride of, you know, behind like the compassion, you
know, you want to have the power, I should say, of the
lion. But yeah, I want almost nothing
(32:14):
else. It's lazy.
Women do all the work, you know,the, you know, it's gives up,
gives up easy in a lot of ways. I mean, we could go off about
that. But the idea that in society,
I'm the first one who starts crying and I'm the first one who
gets shows their emotions and how is that in any form?
(32:37):
Like, how can that be the idea that we can conceive that as
weakness and that is like the ultimate connector.
These are, we're talking about support groups that are full of
strangers and who are the, the consistency between them is that
they all are, have broken hearts.
They're all struggling like all of us, you know, with something
(33:01):
or many things. So I I'm the first one.
Then don't break, Joe. No, I'm broken and I'm
beautifully broken. I that's the way.
What did they say? The local lions like, you know,
the cracks are how they like it,man.
And, and so we in our support groups, I, I picture all these
(33:23):
guys, is there an errand on the ledge?
You know, do I go up to Aaron and say, hey, bro, lions not
sheep, gosh. Or do I go up to Aaron?
I say, hey, I hate the one that says no one's coming to save
you. You know, I get where they're
going with some of these. I get where they're trying to
(33:44):
go. I should say some of this.
There's other language you can use far healthier that that no
one's coming to save you would imagine if I said that to Aaron
on the overpass and then see youbro mouth.
No, like you could say better things more way more helpful
(34:04):
things to show support and love for for another.
And so just even in this conversation is I'm sure it's
happened many times with you guys where you you guys start
sharing something and you're like, wow, I didn't really mean
to share that. Maybe maybe I'll edit it out
later. But that thing, that deeper
thing that was shared, it's fascinated through, you know,
(34:28):
and it was so impactful on you and, you know, the guy, whoever
you're interviewing. And then you leave.
You leave that conversation, like, OK, yeah, I'm glad that I
talked about that. You know, I'm glad that I shared
that because then it inspired him to say something from his
broken heart, you know? And then I had this symbiotic
(34:51):
relationship suddenly between the three of us, you know, it's
so beautiful, man. Why wouldn't you want to have
that type of conversation? Yeah, I agree.
You know, some of that you were saying, I think when it comes
like lions, not sheep. I think a lot of people who
identify like as a lion, they have lived their life in the
(35:14):
wild, having to fend for themselves, having to.
I've seen, I've seen videos where lions will come to humans
and they're like best friends almost.
And it's like, not that normal, you know, you see, like, what am
I watching right now? Is this real?
Like, but what happens is once the lion knows that you're not
(35:36):
there to attack them or be a predator all of a sudden because
you're so gentle with them, they're gentle with you because
you're like, oh, you just want to be my friend.
You just want to like and it's like, it's that gentle.
Sheep. Like that, just like you feel
comfortable with them. You're like, I don't, I don't
(35:58):
wait. I don't have to defend myself.
You just want to listen to me. You just wait.
You understand what I'm going through.
Like, and and it's like, it's like you hug them.
It's it's, it's just wants that compassion and that gentleness
overtakes the lion. The lion is just like, it was
like a sheep dressed up in a lion's clothing.
(36:19):
And I was like, I just, I just want to be hurt.
I just want to be, I just want this healing.
I, I don't want to have to fightanymore.
And like, you see it like you'veseen in your group, like it's
just like they get surrounded bythese people that just care
genuinely about who they are beyond the surface level.
Like, you know, don't, don't defend yourself.
I want you to tell me why you'rehurt and why you feel like you
(36:39):
have to defend yourself because you're just a hurt person going
through life. And so I think that that's
honestly where a lot of this movement comes from.
It's just we're in the wild trying to defend ourselves and
it's because we're hurt and we're broken.
And I, I Even so it's just like a song I listen to and like
they're talking about like a documentary or whatever.
(37:02):
It's like a worship song, but then they're talking about,
they're talking about there's like a live set anyways.
And he was saying that they're doing documentary and they're
having like a Potter and they'relike just, you know, tell us how
like, you know, like God is the Potter, right?
And we're the clay. And like, what happens if like
you put in the fire and like, orlike you drop it and it breaks?
(37:24):
What happens then? Then the guy, the Potter was
like, well, we just crush it up,grind it down and use it again.
And that's just like, it doesn'tmatter if you're broken.
Like you can still like become something beautiful.
And it's just that whole pictureof like, life doesn't have to
(37:47):
stop when you're broken, You just can now decide, OK, what I
want to do with it, where do I want to go?
And then create that stuff. Oh, that's perfect.
I mean, I think it's called. What is that?
It's, I don't know if you guys heard of it, The Japanese art
it's called, I think it's calledKansugi or something like that.
Something like that, yeah. Yeah, where they take, you know,
(38:10):
the broken or whatever, and thenthey put it back together
through using like silver or gold and it's stronger than it
was before, you know, and and that's, that's very much, I
mean, we're, we're talking, you know, spiritually, religiously,
faithfully, you know, we break bread.
You know, we, we, God wants a broken heart, not a bent heart.
(38:33):
The idea that we break ground, you know, to start something
new. There's so many, you know,
symbolic inventions of like breaking things, needing to
break and being broken to be better, you know, from muscles
having to to get stronger to, you know, you know, again, our
(38:54):
hearts being able to be strongerand more lovable and humble and
loving. And so not that I hate on any of
these guys, them I, I do agree, I think a lot of them come from
a very volatile. Upbringing.
Something traumatic happened andit's coming from a, you know,
(39:18):
dangerous hurt place, But I think the messaging is
everything for me. You know what I'm when a when a
guy sees lot, he reads lions notcheap.
Then it's super divisive and we know men may are 80% of all
suicides 80. And so when a guy doesn't feel
like he is a lion, then he's going to be a recluse.
(39:46):
And then suddenly in every way, and then suddenly he's lost all
value and thinks he's a failure.And then he leads our lives
forever. A lot of them.
So I, I am passionate about messaging, positive messaging,
not to say oh, oh, it's everything's freaking.
You know, ice cream and lollipops.
(40:08):
Not freaking. Wonka's factory here, but I it's
it's a it's one where we don't need to be so divisive and you
know what we're trying our point.
You know what we're trying like I love you Bros called I love
you bro simply because it's, youknow, for me, that's.
What was the exactly? Needed at the time and it just
(40:32):
kind of collectively that message represents all that
we're trying to do and if lion'snot sheep is collectively what
you're trying to do I I just don't I bet you if he's on here
he would be like well it's it's more than that you know it's
this this you know I get it. But that's the message that men
are hearing is just the lion's not cheap no one's coming to
(40:55):
save you That's terrible you know and again take it back to
the overpass Aaron. That's not going to help Aaron.
Well, we're what we're trying tosay is, well, then just save
those things, you know, save those things.
Make it simple for us men. We want simple structure,
simple, consistent. That's what men want.
(41:17):
And our data shows You give me some structured, simple
messaging. It will resonate with me, not
just. You know, I don't know about you
guys, but. It's just the way it works with
men, the way we process. So if you're giving me a, it is
structured and simple. Lion's not cheap.
It is catchy. That's going to resonate in one
(41:39):
way or another with me. And if but if the product of
that is what's you know, well, Lion's not cheap is it's
supposed to get guys, you know, to come be better, be, make, be
their best selves or whatever. There's a much better way to go
about that that shows brotherhood and love and support
(42:00):
and you are not alone. And I'll have the guys in Group.
You know, we had a guy coming who said, you know, he's had a
pornography addiction just trying to trying to kick and he
just craps on himself all the time, 'cause he'll have these
little stints where he. Goes for, you know, a couple.
Weeks and then you know, has a blip and then suddenly you know,
(42:24):
he's back at hating himself again.
And I said, man, just let's stopfor a second, bro.
Anyone who's ever watched pornography or had a pornography
addiction, raise your hand. And we have like 14 guys in
there, all 14 guys raising theirhands.
And so that what I love for me in my position is I literally
can say you are not alone. Look in this room, you know,
(42:50):
we're barking and pounding our chest on, you know, you are not
alone. Social media and every other
place. But for me, I'm able to show
these guys. Look at this.
Yeah, you know, me, myself included, you know, you name it.
And a lot of these. Oh, well.
And we can do that with a many things, you know, from
loneliness to grief, to many different addictions, divorce,
(43:10):
all that stuff. How many of us, you know, are
really so sad right now? So sad for what?
Every guy is raising their hand.And so there's so much power.
If are you going to get that saying, hey, how many guys are
lions, not sheep? I don't know how many guys are
going to they're they're going to want to raise their hand
because everybody else, you know, that's what they're
(43:30):
expected to do. But if I were to ask that of my
support groups, I'm not sure I get, you know, many hands going
up and that's the way I want it.That's the way I'll take it.
And I'm not just crapping on guys too.
We have a lot of messaging from women as well.
That's terrible. That the one that I hate the
most that I'm going to be postedon soon as the happy wife happy
(43:53):
life mentality. And then people people say,
well, no, the counter to that ishappy spouse happy house.
I'm like that doesn't work either.
For me. It's I crossed off happy wife,
happy life and I just put love at home and that is you.
(44:14):
You you talk about happy wife that OK, we're all bending the
knee to the happiness and joy ofthis family revolves around one
person. That's not right and very
unhealthy. OK, well then the happiness of
the mom and dad dictates, you know, the the health of the
(44:35):
family. That's not quite right either.
That leaves out our kids that were, you know, need to be a
part of that. And so for me, it's like just
simplicity. We'll love at home then we
should have that includes everyone who plays a part in the
joy that should be a collective effort of joy.
(44:56):
Sure led by the mom sure led by the dad LED hopefully leading
kids to also be leaders and bringing that to the home.
I am. I'm just one of those guys that
I messaging is crucial and what type of.
Messaging, are we? Giving our kids?
What type of messaging are we giving each other?
(45:17):
There are lots of guys. I know what's going to happen
when I make that post? Well, Joe, it's, it's just a
thing we say. It's just a joke.
Don't take it so seriously. But when a dude is struggling to
make his wife happy and maybe he's going, you know, that
mentality, if he's struggling, he, he will suddenly disappear
behind what do they call it a stoic?
(45:39):
But it's, it's, it's called, it's called numb, bro.
It's the numb is the new stoic. And that's when your guy will
start disappearing behind a maskand then eventually or hopefully
not, but disappear in general. And so I am a big proponent of
proper messaging. And.
(46:01):
Well, how do you come up with this?
Well, I just sit and think aboutit.
What is what is the message I want to say?
You know what? What do I want people to to
learn and to to think and to feel and to act.
So yeah. But I mean, people will want to
argue with me about this, that and the other.
I just know what I see in the groups, bro.
I just know how to see in our groups and, and what I see in
(46:21):
the data and what, what we permit, we promote, you know,
and if we're going to promote orI'm sorry, permit some of this
language. And some of these.
To continually be out there perpetuating stigma, it's just
going to get worse. So if I can, I have an
(46:43):
obligation to hopefully, especially with ILOB bro, we
have an obligation to educate and empower people to, to not
necessarily make these life changes, but just to make little
tweaks and, and some of the way we, we can just be better, you
know, moving, moving forward Well.
I like that because like, that'san.
Issue that we have as society isbecause message, like you said,
(47:04):
messaging, it sways everything. Like something we've talked
about that we've kind of gone against recently is man up like
that's I hate that big issue with.
Men nowadays, like we've been talking.
About that all month long like that it it creates this like in
your head like well, am I not man enough for this like no,
like I hate those two words yeah, I freaking.
(47:26):
Hate those words. I would say man up is probably
the worst one to me. You know, there's a whole
laundry list of statements that I disapprove of of myself, but
it it it's just not what we it'snot healthy.
It's not what is going to make Aaron come off of the ledge.
Imagine again, I go to Aaron andI say man up.
(47:48):
Well, Joe, that's. A crazy that's a that.
That's not an appropriate comparison.
Yes, it is because the assumption should be who who is.
Whoever is following. Your page or whoever's on your
website or using your app, the assumption should be that there
are many who are struggling and,and if your message is man up,
(48:15):
then that person, everybody, allof us up here and even in here,
we're on our own proverbial legends.
And when you when you come to mewith messaging like man up, then
you're, you're, you are not onlynot helping, you're actually
pushing, you're giving me a helpful snudge, you know, in the
(48:37):
wrong direction. So I think that needs more
questions than anything. It's like, what does that even
mean, you know? What is?
What does it mean man? Like what is like I think with.
The whole lines, like you think like they have a completely
different, different definition of what a man should be versus
like, you know, so it goes all into that.
(49:00):
But yeah, it's, it's, it's if wecould change that in society, I
think we could change a lot. And that would be a big factor.
In things. Yeah, Ben, I what?
Was I going to say here, you know the whole man up because
you, you said you brought up stats, right?
So 70. 5% of men that they negative self talk is the big
(49:20):
thing, right? So when you tell somebody who's
already talking bad about themselves to man up, they're
already well see, it just provesme right that I'm not man
enough, that I'm not. And then just the self talk,
negative self talk just continues to, you know, compile.
Then it's a. Compile and.
So. But yeah, no, I and all this
(49:41):
stuff, I love talking with you. I really do.
Joe, you're, I love talking withyou guys too.
Yeah. We have, we have lots of, you
know, there are lots of issues and we're all complex, we're all
unique and our issues are a little different.
I mean, when these guys come andcheck in, there's 20 different
things they can check and, and honestly that the list could be
(50:02):
forever long on different challenges these guys are
experiencing. I mean, one, one of the
questions they we have on our checking is, you know, what
emotions are you experiencing? And the number one emotion these
guys are feeling is number 1 is shame, or I should say ashamed.
(50:22):
And then right after that there is anxiety, anxious is right
after that. And I mean, I think shame is
about 52% my so that feeling shamed when they come to group.
And then the other question, what challenges you're facing.
Oh, negative self work worth. They don't they aren't
(50:43):
necessarily the same thing, but they work in tandem together
clearly. But what the shame and the I
should say the negative self talk.
They're attached to all of the other challenges these guys are
facing. So OK, fine.
And so if they check the box finances, financials, well,
look, I don't have a job, I don't make enough money.
(51:04):
I hate on myself. I don't bring up, you know, I
don't have enough value, you know, or if they're clicking
grief on I'm my wife died. I can't get over it.
So therefore, I'm, I have no value bringing people down
South. Shame and negative self talk are
attached to literally every other like addiction to, you
(51:25):
know, you name it, loneliness, all of them are attached.
That's just, it's clear and evident that absolutely negative
self talk is the number one thing we're all experiencing.
And and having said that, like you were saying, why are you
leading with man up? You know, but what I do know is
that what I I knew nothing aboutmental health on that overpass,
(51:49):
but I think I love you bro was aa good start in the right
direction that type of message. Yeah, definitely.
Well, we're basically at. Time so I just wanted to say
first and foremost thank you forcoming back on.
We absolutely love having you on.
That's why we asked you to come back on because just these raw
(52:14):
dialogue between US and then thestats and everything that you
give to from your experience andthe I love you Bro project.
It's just it just helps to solidify what we're talking
about. And like you're like, Oh my
gosh, when you bring stats up like that, like so majority of
men are feeling what I'm feeling.
(52:35):
I'm not alone. Like it's just like not.
Something you're like. Wow, I guess.
Everybody else is like, because when we start talking about it,
we're like, oh, you're going through that, I'm going through
that. Oh, you have that addiction.
I too, like, it's like, it's crazy because we all just want
to, you know, stick to our own. And we're so convinced that
we're the only one dealing with it.
That's what ends up being. The problem the, the most, the
(52:58):
most alarming stat that I have is I'm finishing a report for
the Utah Department of Health and Human Services, my annual
year end report, which is brain frying, but it forces me to
really look into the data that we have for this report.
The most alarming one that I sawwas that when asked, I pulled
(53:24):
125 women who have come through our I Love You SIS program,
mental health workshops to support men in their mental
health, pulled 125 of them. And one of the questions on this
poll is who do you think your husband or partner or husband or
(53:46):
the man in your life? The the men who are closest in
your life, who would you think they're most comfortable
reaching out to you when in an emotional crisis or mental
health crisis? The women, 83% of them said
spouse and the reality is when per I think total 6000 surveys
(54:11):
that I have for men, it's actually the least selected is
spouse at 13%. And So what what it does show is
women think that the men are going to reach out to them if
they're struggling. So, or they think that they are
(54:32):
the first responder, you know, in their husbands or the dads or
whoever's the closest dominant male in their life.
They think that they're the mosttrusted person that they're that
these men are going to come to. And so by no news is good news,
where whereas really men, only 13% of men are comfortable
(54:55):
reaching out to their spouse when in emotional or mental
health crisis. To me, it's heartbreaking.
It's staggering to think about. But it's a place where we need
to start having some freaking conversations, you know?
Then we go from there. Though I appreciate you guys
always having me on, Bros. Yeah, of course.
(55:17):
We love you, man. Thank you.
Love you Bros, and we, I mean. I always ask, but they can.
Find you a love Uber project if they want to reach out to you,
right? Yeah, yeah.
But love you bro. Project.org is our website has
all of our information. If you don't live in Utah where
all our services are, has some good best practices on there.
(55:40):
Honestly, it's just, you know, I, I want to say like everybody
else, you are not alone. You know, I know that doesn't
resonate well when we're hyper focused Tunnel tunnel vision on
the challenge that we're experiencing or the emotion that
we're serious at the time, but Ido it is absolutely like you
were saying, you quite literallyare not alone, Bros.
(56:00):
You know it's you, Gosh, you arenot and through your not
aloneness, you can feel some start to feel some level of
validation and and own those emotions for what they are.
Know that they're there and thenlet's trick and go through these
(56:21):
struggles together. You don't need to own them
alone, you know. And so that's the whole I love
you, bro project man is you don't have to be there and deal
with all this crap alone. You have people who will race to
help you. They will race to come to your,
to your aid, not lift everythingfor you, but they will come help
(56:43):
you. So we put in the work for
ourselves, you show up, and it'sa freaking beautiful, awesome
thing, man. What can I say?
I love you, Bros. Love you too, all right?
Everyone listen, we love you. Too And we'll see you guys in
the next.
Hey everyone, welcome back to Fatherhood Unscripted.
Today we're closing out Men's Mental Health month with a
powerful, raw, and deeply honestconversation.
We're welcoming back our friend Joe to Ayana from I Love You Bro
Project. If you've heard of Joe before,
you know he doesn't hold back. And in this episode, we dive
into real struggles men face, from shame and negative self
talk to damaging phrases like man up and lions, not sheep.
(00:23):
We talked about breaking generational cycles, creating
sacred spaces where our kids feel safe to talk, and what it
means to be a trusted listener. As a dad, this isn't a surface
level conversation. It's the kind of vulnerable talk
that so many of us need but rarely get.
If you're a dad, a husband, a friend, or just someone
navigating your own mental health, this one's for you.
So settle in, and let's end Men's Mental Health Month with a
(00:45):
real conversation that matters. I just like being with you guys.
You guys are really exceptional listeners and that will always
be especially if you can be a trusted listener.
There's a big difference. I added I was on an interview
with a guy podcast interview where you mentioned, you know, I
don't want to be my kids friend.You know, I want to be their
(01:07):
dad. And and I think instead of
saying that even I would say I don't want to be my kids friend,
I want to be their trusted listener, which doesn't have an
attachment of dad or you know this, you know, you know,
relationship. It just is a trusted listener
that I've created space for specifically.
(01:29):
Well, I think that's an issue like a lot of us has grown up
with is, you know, some of us that have daddy issues like our
dad was full time work mode, like wasn't really there.
And so that's why we all are growing up now.
I'm like, all right, what do we do?
And so, yeah, that's a good thing because even with my son
recently, it's always, he just wants to hang out, play video
games. Like buddy, listen, we're we're
(01:52):
I'm your dad. I'm here for you.
But like, I don't want to play video games all the time.
Listen, you can do with your friends, but same time, like I
need to find that place where it's not like it'd be like my
dad works like, all right, he doesn't want to do anything with
me. We need to find that moment.
And like you said, just to be a good listener and be there for
my son. So that way when he's older, he
wants to come back home. And because you know, Dad will
(02:12):
listen the the ultimate, the ultimate thing is having my kids
want to hang out with me or and Even so like having their
friends over at our house and they all want to hang around it.
It's it is the ultimate compliment as a dad, you know,
and I don't know how old your guys kids are.
Mine are mine had one that just got home from a mission 8 months
(02:34):
ago. She's 21.
I have one that's 18 and I have one that's almost 16.
And they're like always wanted to be around me, you know, and
and they really are my best friends, but also are your my
relationship with them, you know, as it evolves, develops,
you know, it used to be, I used to be more that, you know, I am
your dad, you know, and this andthat as you trying to teach
(02:57):
correct principles. But now I'm at the point where
I'm on the other side of the statement.
Let them govern themselves mentality where I can just see
the the work that I did before, I can see the mistakes that I've
made before and how I failed forward through them.
And then now it's manifesting through just very cool, very
(03:19):
transparent, very, you know, laid back.
Not laid back to the point whereit's lazy, but laid back where I
can just take a step back and bejust thankful and just be
grateful now. It's that I did it right.
Yeah, yeah. Jasmine and my wife and I were
(03:40):
talking about actually last night, just being able to 1, you
know, create that safe place foryour kids so they can come back.
They know that, you know, they can talk to you about anything
and there's no judgements. There's no like you're going to
yell at them. You're just going to be that,
like you said, active listener, just tell me everything that's
going on in your life. If you want advice, I'll give
(04:00):
you the advice as they get olderthat what you said like let them
govern themselves. Like what's the fact that you
taught them well enough to get through the consequences of
life, to get through like make the right decisions?
I think for me growing up, growing up in a religious home,
I was told all the things not todo.
(04:23):
They didn't trust me with anything to make those decisions
on my own or that they taught mewell enough to think on my own.
And so getting into adulthood, like now I have to think on my
own. I'm like, I don't know how to do
this because, like, one, it was like they thought for me, but
two, like, yeah. So just being able to trust the
(04:44):
process, trust that you did it right and trust that God's going
to lead them in the right direction.
Like I think a lot of times we, we don't, we don't let, we don't
let God be God. We just, we want to take control
of things and we just got to letgo and like let go and let God.
I know that's a cliche like saying, but that's honestly what
you have to do with your kids. Yeah, very real.
(05:07):
And and I think there is anotherside of, you know, that
communication with our kids. What I've learned is that you
have to to to even to get to thestep to be an entrusted
listener, You have to be a what I would describe as a proactive
(05:29):
question asker, you know, and it's got to be a good it's got
there got to be good questions. They're going to be the
conversation starters. I don't know if you guys have
read that book. It's awesome.
It's by Jefferson Fisher is called starting a conversation,
(05:50):
I think, and it's not that long of a book, but it's how it's how
to argue effectively and kindly and how to ask really good
questions in difficult moments. I read it and just to help me
with my groups, but I was like, dude, this is going to help me
with just freaking life with my kids and you know, and things
like that. And so I've learned that, man,
(06:11):
if you instead of this the standard, how was your day?
It's tell me about this. So the way you start the
question, which which it's just to not ask yes or no, just to
not ask the ones that are just the standard.
And, and it's also what I teach to women who are asking, you
(06:31):
know, how do I get my man to open up a little bit?
I'm like, the best thing to do is to start with, you know, tell
me about this. You know, I admire the way you
handled this. Tell me how you went through
that. You know, things that it's
you're starting with a compliment and then it's leading
(06:52):
to a question, which then startsopening up stuff.
And then so, you know, if you're, if you're being A to be
an act of intentional trusted listener, you got to have to
listen to something, you know, And so if they're not opening
up, especially these kids, bro, they're not opening up.
It's because they think you either don't care, you don't
(07:14):
you're not listening or that in the past that they've been, you
know, discarded what they've what they've said and what
they've shared, which is very similar to the reason why men
don't open up of those these ourkids are internalizing things.
Well, my parents are not going to support me.
Then I'll just support me or my friends will listen and support
(07:37):
me there. You know, it's a very close Bros
to the data we have on men. Why they don't open up is very
similar to the, you know, to theway that these kids are thinking
in those teen years, those volatile, chaotic, fricking
emotions that are developing, you know, in their brains and in
their hearts. And so, yeah, I for me, what has
(07:58):
been super successful is being able to ask difficult questions
and have my kids be able to givedifficult answers and, and me be
able to handle those answers to hold the space that I have with
my kids. It's sacred space.
(08:20):
It's this, this space that you develop this.
I tell the guys in Group this isour, this space is, is like
dedicated set apart, whatever you want to call it as sacred
space for vulnerability and sharing.
My kids know the space that we have between us.
It's sacred. How I, it makes me cringe when I
(08:41):
hear guys tell me about like stuff that's happening with
their wives and stuff that like are like negative, like, just
like, like I'm like, do they know that you're talking about
this? You know, do, do, do your kids,
have you have your kids permission to share some of this
stuff? You know, like it, it just makes
me hurt a little bit for those people because it isn't a sacred
(09:04):
space. Clearly it's not been treated as
such or, or, you know, started in nurtured as such.
And so I, I do really lean into that using that exact verbiage.
This is sacred space. And those words are powerful to,
to people that you can trust, you can trust me.
(09:26):
And let's start there. And let's start with some, you
know, difficult, simple, difficult questions, you know,
and then take the answers, you know, for what they are and own,
own the answers, you know, even if they're hurtful.
Do you bro, own the answers, ownthe emotions that are, you know,
come where they're coming from and up?
(09:47):
Dude, let's just start here. I think that's like a lot of
parents, like when you say that I think they don't want to own
those emotions because kids are truthful, unfortunately, and
they will tell us things we don't want to hear about
ourselves. And then as soon as we hear a
lot of the times it just triggers that.
All right, you're I don't want to hear this crap.
And they just stop listening to their kids when in honesty,
(10:10):
that's how we're going to grow as parents is by listening to
our kids because that's they need to, they're telling us what
we need to hear, you know? Hey, man, that's a good word,
man. Yeah.
And we, I think we're products of, you know, of course, our
parents, you know, their goods and their bads.
And we try to take the best fromeach and try to piece together a
freaking Voltron power Ranger, you know, something of a dad in
(10:34):
ourselves parent. And then, you know, but a part
of those that Voltron is, isn't so great, you know, that we're,
we're inheriting and you know, that we've been kind of
programmed to, to be. And then the, the difficult of
part of them being able to tell us, hey, that Voltron, that
tiger on your arm, that lion on your arm ain't working, bro.
(10:54):
It's hurting my feelings. It's, you know, I don't like it.
And you know, for me to be like,dude, I got to cut this arm off.
I got to, you know, I got to, you know, redevelop some new
muscle, certain places of my life and parenting.
And I, I think we don't want to hear, it's tough to hear that
stuff. We don't want to freaking hear
(11:15):
that. Yeah, you're you're wrong.
You, you know, isn't that tough for you guys are here, man,
that's wrong. You, you hurt my feelings.
Walls come up defensive. You know, this, that or the
other. Yeah, and instead of getting
defensive too, like it's it's about validating their emotions
(11:35):
because their emotions, regardless of like what you
intended or how you wanted it togo, it doesn't make their
feelings go away or their emotions go away.
Their emotions are real and they're valid.
So it's like validating like, Ohmy gosh, I'm so sorry that like
I made you feel that way. Here's what I meant by what I
(11:57):
said. I never meant to hurt you.
So I apologize that I came across that way.
And I'm going to do better moving forward on how I
communicate my body language, the words I use.
But in, you know, a lot of us like, whoa, I didn't say it like
that. Your, your, your thinking's all
(12:18):
wrong. And you start to once they know
that their feelings won't be validated, they don't want to
come to you. They'll go to their, their
friends who will validate their emotions.
Oh my gosh, he said that to you.He made you feel that way.
Forget that guy. That's exactly what the friends
are going to say. They're going to validate their
emotions. So us as dads, we need to be
that safe place where they can come to us with their emotions.
(12:41):
And we say, you know what, you're right.
Like I, I mean, I didn't mean to, for that to come across that
way, but it is like my, my 4 year old going on five, he will
call me out on things. Dad, it's not cool to yell.
You know what, buddy? You're right.
I got to take a step back. Like, Oh my gosh, I am yelling.
(13:01):
I am getting frustrated. Dad, you need to take a deep
breath. Oh, you're right, buddy.
I do need to take a deep breath.So it's it's, it's it's cool.
Like your kids will be the most raw with you.
And that's what we need. We don't need people sugar
coating things so that the otherperson will feel better about
themselves. You need to tell me how you're
(13:22):
feeling so that I know, so that we can make this relationship
better. Yeah, good word.
I mean, what are the the three most difficult things meant?
You know, I'm sorry, I love you.I was wrong and I need help.
Those those those four things are probably the most difficult
(13:45):
things for us has been to say and to be able to have, you
know, especially, I mean four years old.
They can say they just about getaway with anything, you know,
saying, but at least he's getting, you know, he's getting
away with saying things that arepretty true, you know, and then
he'll learn grace as he gets older, you know, he'll learn
(14:06):
empathy. And then then it will be start
hopefully, you know, developing into suddenly you just got this
guy who's just emotionally in control.
And you know, we can, I have a question that I pose an ice
breaker for each group just to start conversation.
And one that I love to ask all the groups is, you know,
describe, describe and only using 3 words, what a man should
(14:33):
be. Just three single words, no
hyphens, no nothing. Give me 3 words.
There's so many. And it's a very difficult
question. So that it forces these guys to,
and I give them a minute to think about just three
individual words to, to describewhat the perfect man would be.
And the ones that you know, I the ones that always come up for
(14:59):
me because there's again, it's so difficult, but for me, I, the
the ones that I always come up is kind, driven and disciplined.
Those those three things from mepeople.
Well, they throw in love, you know, they throw in you can so
many respectful, you know, hard working or whatever.
(15:20):
There's so many to two. And none of them are wrong, you
know, really for me. And but it then it makes me
evaluate, OK, am I those three things?
You know, I ask, you know, how close are you Yeah, to to being
those. What are you doing?
What, what work are you putting in to be those three things?
Can you describe yourself with those 3 words?
(15:45):
And so, you know, being, you know, in recovery, alcohol
discipline is that's what I haveto not discipline as in I'm
going to smack you around or youknow, that kind.
Obviously that has, you know, you want to be disciplined that
way, but disciplined more from the fact that, you know, I have
control over my emotions. I have control over my habits
(16:10):
and and those things. You know, of course I love the
word kind to me that emphasizes love.
It kind of insinuates love in its own way.
Then then I have the word drivenfor me too, just because I, I
want to have, I want to get up and get going to do good, you
(16:33):
know, actively, proactively doing good in the world and as a
parent in the home and whatnot. And so it's something maybe you
guys can, you guys can think about right now and see if you
guys can give me 3, three words that you'd, you'd like to be
just just from my example, you know, we've given them there's
(16:57):
no wrong answers. And I think, but the idea is,
you know, I ask it up front, what do you, you know, what are
the three words? And then afterwards, it's like,
how close are you guys to be in those three?
Would you describe yourself as those three things?
And for me, it's I, I'm, I'm actively working on, I think
discipline is, is what I do now.I have a very good control over
(17:23):
many things that I did not have control over in my life that I
had that we need to have controlover.
I have as far as kindness, it's increased dramatically through
my work with I Love You Bro Project and the constant hearing
of broken hearts and the constant of having a broken
heart, being humbled. It's been helping with being
(17:45):
kind to others. And then the drive part probably
is where I need the most work, being able to be driven in all
aspects of my life and not just as a parent and not just as a
needs to be there for physical fitness needs to be there.
Just, you know, I was attached to discipline.
(18:06):
You know that drive to be to be better in in every aspect of my
life. Yeah, I would.
I mean, I can go first. I would say present because I
mean that's something growing upthat my dad wasn't.
I want to make sure that I'm present in all aspects and show
my kids that. I love that love.
I think drive to, I think I can work a little bit more on drive,
(18:28):
but like I feel like everything I put myself into, I try and
tend to put all myself into it. So I think drive and then for
the third honest, I guess I think I would use because I
mean, you know, goes your life just found out non facts that
would suck. And I feel like I tend to just
(18:48):
tell people me, you know, I wantto be me everywhere, Not Oh,
this is a different guy on the podcast than he has been a dad,
you know, so just. So some transparency there.
Yeah, for for me, one word. This is because I grew up in a
chaotic home, but peaceful. Like I want there to be so much
(19:10):
peace in the home. That's yeah, peaceful.
That's awesome. Loving obviously.
Like I just want to love my kidsand Jasmine.
So my kids names, I like to say their names because I don't like
to just call them my kid. So Jasmine, Nathaniel, Elijah
and Ryland because they're all their own identity.
(19:33):
And then just confident. So I know I growing up and well
into adulthood, even still now, I don't walk around with as much
confidence as I should. And I was just telling Jasmine
this just the other night, actually, that part of my like,
(19:54):
well, one, I didn't know I had ADHD until I was basically 30.
I found out I had ADHD. Well, that came with a lot of
masking over the years because Ithought, you know.
Man, people don't seem like they're struggling as much as I
am, but I have to keep up with them.
So I just masked everything and that turned into people
(20:15):
pleasing. So I would just to fit in with
everybody, I would, you know, become a chameleon and I'd fit
in wherever and everybody, you know, well, it feels good.
People are liking me. And so now, you know, to, you
know, present day, I find myselflike, kind of like not wanting
(20:37):
to be confident in who I am because I don't want to come
across cocky or you don't want somebody to think I'm arrogant
and not like me. But that's something that I'm,
that I am actually working on right now And today, like
confidence, just knowing who I am.
I, you know, we're our own worstcritic.
But Jasmine brought up to me, she's like, the one thing I
(20:59):
dislike about you the most is the fact that you're positive
when it comes to everybody else.When it comes to you, you're the
most negative person in the entire world.
And it hit hard because I'm like, you're right.
I tell myself, you know, oh, I'ma terrible dad.
I'm this, I'm that, you know, people give me a compliment.
(21:22):
I think they're just projecting their own self onto me.
So I take the compliment and throw it right back to him,
like, oh, oh, you're a handsome guy.
Oh, thank you. You're, you're, you know, I just
like, throw it back to me. You're handsome, you know, like
I, I don't want to take that compliment.
I don't believe that about myself.
And so now it's about taking compliments, saying thank you.
You're like, you're right. Like I like, I, I play the bass
(21:44):
for my church. So I like, I people say, oh,
you're a great bass player. And now I'm taking like, oh, you
know what? I am a great bass player.
You're right. I do have a, a set of skills
that I'm I'm appreciative that you're noticing it and just just
that kind of where I'm at. That was a long winded question
to what you're asking, but. Yeah, that's.
(22:06):
Where I'm at today, yeah. No, I think it it, it sparks
conversation. And so we have these, most of my
ice breaker questions that ask the groups come from
conversations that I've had withmy kids.
So we'll have, as they get a little older, your kids, they,
(22:27):
you know, it's, they start so sharp, they know what's going
on. And, you know, as they get
older, they're smarter and smarter, you know, which puts
sometimes us knuckleheads at a disadvantage.
But we'll have these debates, arguments about very good, kind
(22:47):
debates on things like things like this.
Well, OK, well, you know, if youcould only we love the three
word things. So we'll see if you can only
describe, you know, a perfect marriage, what you want in a
marriage or your spouse lists three things that you want in
your spouse that are one word. And then we're we're saying
(23:10):
we're having this conversation like we are have, you know, me
and my kids like we're having here.
And then you find yourself, wow,we're sharing a lot.
It's not even you know, it left the question a long time ago.
You know, we're actually talkingabout other things at the same
time when we're having this conversation.
So again, another great just another great thing to to have
(23:31):
in our toolbox as men is to be able to ask really good
questions. That's spawn great conversation.
And then we're suddenly, bro, we're suddenly we're doing so
many things at one time. We're building a great, we had a
better relationship with our kids.
We're building trust and and we're opening space and creating
(23:53):
space that's sacred. And then we ourselves are
finding more value in ourselves.You know, from I am AI am a good
dad. I am a good look at this site.
Look at this. Look what I just did.
I just had this awesome conversation with my kids, you
know, or look at this, you know,I just apologized to my kid when
I, when I was wrong, I and I admitted it and wow, look at,
(24:17):
look at what I did right there. That makes you know, I am a good
dad. I am failing forward, you know,
and so I again, I like what you were saying, bro.
It's like I am a good bass player, you know, I do have
qualities that everyone else cansee, but freaking me, you know,
and I know you guys remember probably from our last
(24:38):
conversation, you know, it's something, right?
I haven't checked the numbers, but I think we're probably 75%
of the men who come into our groups.
The number one challenge, 75% isself hate.
It is self talk about ourselves.So if we're talking about that,
7 1/2 of these dudes out of 10 are doing exactly that.
(24:59):
They're just, they cannot own any part of a compliment.
They cannot for themselves. And you know, they're they're so
quick. These guys are, you know, nine
of them are just rallying aroundthe one.
Oh, you are just amazing. You are incredible pointing out
all their, you know, qualities and all the the great things
about them. And then the the one just I
(25:21):
don't get it. Thanks, guys.
You know, can't take a compliment, can't take absorb
that, you know, they feel the love, but they can't feel it
necessarily for themselves, you know?
Yeah. And so the, the idea that we
can, we have permission to love ourselves and we, we have
(25:41):
permission when we should give permission to, to love ourselves
a little bit more. And I think society said, Oh,
you, you love yourself. Oh, someone who says you, oh,
they're so arrogant, you know, they're So what a what a
douchebag, you know, Oh, there, you know what I'm saying?
Like, if you see that when, like, why can't you just look at
(26:01):
that as in like, thank you, Jesus.
Some of us can love ourselves, you know, and at least somewhat
proud enough that we can say, you know what, I am a good
person. I'm not as bad as I think that I
am. I am freaking human.
I'm not a freaking robot, you know, like I, I actually have
(26:23):
emotions and I can identify them, recognize them and I can
own them. Like that's valuable.
That's such a valuable knowledgethat we can have.
Is that like, like men are that they might have joy, not
freaking men are that they mightbe freaking miserable all the
time. You know, and I think when we
(26:44):
hear it from other men, it's it connects on a whole new level.
It's like hearing I love you from your wife.
Correct me if I'm wrong, fellows.
Your wife says, oh, I love you, honey.
And you're like, oh, I love you too.
And then it's lots of times it'sjust it's just that, you know,
it, it hits a little differentlywhen your kids say it.
You know, it's AI think for me, it's the next level, you know?
(27:08):
Oh, I love you too. Yeah, Yeah.
You know, to me, it's like that's probably the apex of it.
But when you can, when you actually have another dude, you
know, a bro who can, you literally are having this
vulnerable, awesome conversationand you're both connecting on
(27:31):
this level that you know, you, you it's very rare, you know,
for for men to have, but you're really super connected.
And then at the end you're like,you know what, man, I love you.
It it resonates at a level that a spouse can.
I don't think it's not their fault.
They cannot provide. It's just a different type.
(27:53):
That connection, brotherly connection.
There's a love behind it that iscannot be duplicated or
manufactured, you know, from social media or from, you know,
if we were having this conversation, if we're all three
of us were together having this conversation, it would just
multiply by, you know, when we're, you know, in person.
(28:15):
But it's, it is something that alot of us are lacking.
You guys who have like you 2, obviously you, you love each
other as brothers. You wouldn't be doing this if if
you didn't, Honestly, I wouldn'tbe.
There's no chance that I would be able to do something like you
guys are doing and not love, absolutely love the pro that I'm
(28:36):
doing it with. And so if we can start by saying
some of that stuff, you know, and start by saying like guys
say you say it all, you say it to everybody, Joe, it doesn't
mean anything, right? Hit me every single time I say
it ever since that overpass, bro, it's, it's, it's been
(28:58):
something different. And so for me I, I will say, I
will say it's all these guys andI'll say it to you guys and I'll
say it to anyone who's listening.
I do. I love you, bro.
It's, it's a connection that I have that God is so great for me
that he put me in a situation where I, my heart could grow 3
sizes that day, you know, and, and the next day I was a Grinch
(29:22):
before that, but it to a point where it like, why can't we just
be a little bit more vulnerable to each other, connect on
awesome level and, and have thatbe something normal.
I think something, so something DJ uses that we were taught our
youth pastor taught us growing up was he would always say I
love you, God loves you, and there's nothing you can do about
(29:44):
that. And so he started saying that
then of our podcast now he started using that more.
So that's something we've grown up with too.
His name was Eddie Johnson, amazing man.
And so that was something we were brought up with her.
Youth pastor that. Kind of instilled in US, you
know, that love is the first. I was unconditional.
Secondly, like you don't have tobe related.
(30:07):
You don't have to be in relationship with someone.
Like you can, Jen, you can like just love somebody because you
love them. Like, I think that's something
that's gotten mixed up in society nowadays.
Like, oh, you love that guy? Like, no, like, no.
Yeah, I do. Generally.
I love that. Man, yeah, you got a problem
with it, right? I mean, that's, that's me, you
know? Yeah, of course I do.
(30:28):
It's like a dude that's a that'ssuch a douche comment.
Like, you know, I know we, we have those guys, those lions,
not sheep guys who who kind of like like the Jim bro dude.
And I'll tell you the lions thatwe have that coming to our
support groups, which are many. They are the first ones leaning
(30:50):
on our sheep on a sheep. And there are some values and
attributes about sheep, if that's what you want to call us
that are spectacular and and meant to be, you know,
God-given, you know, that we heard together, man, like we're
(31:10):
not volatile. You know, God did it.
You know, the Good Shepherd doesn't lead lions.
You know, he leads you need sheep.
And so when you have a mentalityor it's yeah, you got to it's an
intimidator that that it's divisive between, you know, men
(31:31):
who who OK, this is alpha male mentality.
And if you're not thinking, kill, kill, lead, lead, destroy
whoever gets in your way and they'll step on them that that's
so freaking unhealthy. And if you I don't naturally
have that instinct, you know, I do.
(31:52):
I am. If I were to describe anything,
I would be absolutely. I would take the the sheep over
the lion. You can have lions have some
good qualities, a few that you would love to have the strength
and the pride of, you know, behind like the compassion, you
know, you want to have the power, I should say, of the
lion. But yeah, I want almost nothing
(32:14):
else. It's lazy.
Women do all the work, you know,the, you know, it's gives up,
gives up easy in a lot of ways. I mean, we could go off about
that. But the idea that in society,
I'm the first one who starts crying and I'm the first one who
gets shows their emotions and how is that in any form?
(32:37):
Like, how can that be the idea that we can conceive that as
weakness and that is like the ultimate connector.
These are, we're talking about support groups that are full of
strangers and who are the, the consistency between them is that
they all are, have broken hearts.
They're all struggling like all of us, you know, with something
(33:01):
or many things. So I I'm the first one.
Then don't break, Joe. No, I'm broken and I'm
beautifully broken. I that's the way.
What did they say? The local lions like, you know,
the cracks are how they like it,man.
And, and so we in our support groups, I, I picture all these
(33:23):
guys, is there an errand on the ledge?
You know, do I go up to Aaron and say, hey, bro, lions not
sheep, gosh. Or do I go up to Aaron?
I say, hey, I hate the one that says no one's coming to save
you. You know, I get where they're
going with some of these. I get where they're trying to
(33:44):
go. I should say some of this.
There's other language you can use far healthier that that no
one's coming to save you would imagine if I said that to Aaron
on the overpass and then see youbro mouth.
No, like you could say better things more way more helpful
(34:04):
things to show support and love for for another.
And so just even in this conversation is I'm sure it's
happened many times with you guys where you you guys start
sharing something and you're like, wow, I didn't really mean
to share that. Maybe maybe I'll edit it out
later. But that thing, that deeper
thing that was shared, it's fascinated through, you know,
(34:28):
and it was so impactful on you and, you know, the guy, whoever
you're interviewing. And then you leave.
You leave that conversation, like, OK, yeah, I'm glad that I
talked about that. You know, I'm glad that I shared
that because then it inspired him to say something from his
broken heart, you know? And then I had this symbiotic
(34:51):
relationship suddenly between the three of us, you know, it's
so beautiful, man. Why wouldn't you want to have
that type of conversation? Yeah, I agree.
You know, some of that you were saying, I think when it comes
like lions, not sheep. I think a lot of people who
identify like as a lion, they have lived their life in the
(35:14):
wild, having to fend for themselves, having to.
I've seen, I've seen videos where lions will come to humans
and they're like best friends almost.
And it's like, not that normal, you know, you see, like, what am
I watching right now? Is this real?
Like, but what happens is once the lion knows that you're not
(35:36):
there to attack them or be a predator all of a sudden because
you're so gentle with them, they're gentle with you because
you're like, oh, you just want to be my friend.
You just want to like and it's like, it's that gentle.
Sheep. Like that, just like you feel
comfortable with them. You're like, I don't, I don't
(35:58):
wait. I don't have to defend myself.
You just want to listen to me. You just wait.
You understand what I'm going through.
Like, and and it's like, it's like you hug them.
It's it's, it's just wants that compassion and that gentleness
overtakes the lion. The lion is just like, it was
like a sheep dressed up in a lion's clothing.
(36:19):
And I was like, I just, I just want to be hurt.
I just want to be, I just want this healing.
I, I don't want to have to fightanymore.
And like, you see it like you'veseen in your group, like it's
just like they get surrounded bythese people that just care
genuinely about who they are beyond the surface level.
Like, you know, don't, don't defend yourself.
I want you to tell me why you'rehurt and why you feel like you
(36:39):
have to defend yourself because you're just a hurt person going
through life. And so I think that that's
honestly where a lot of this movement comes from.
It's just we're in the wild trying to defend ourselves and
it's because we're hurt and we're broken.
And I, I Even so it's just like a song I listen to and like
they're talking about like a documentary or whatever.
(37:02):
It's like a worship song, but then they're talking about,
they're talking about there's like a live set anyways.
And he was saying that they're doing documentary and they're
having like a Potter and they'relike just, you know, tell us how
like, you know, like God is the Potter, right?
And we're the clay. And like, what happens if like
you put in the fire and like, orlike you drop it and it breaks?
(37:24):
What happens then? Then the guy, the Potter was
like, well, we just crush it up,grind it down and use it again.
And that's just like, it doesn'tmatter if you're broken.
Like you can still like become something beautiful.
And it's just that whole pictureof like, life doesn't have to
(37:47):
stop when you're broken, You just can now decide, OK, what I
want to do with it, where do I want to go?
And then create that stuff. Oh, that's perfect.
I mean, I think it's called. What is that?
It's, I don't know if you guys heard of it, The Japanese art
it's called, I think it's calledKansugi or something like that.
Something like that, yeah. Yeah, where they take, you know,
(38:10):
the broken or whatever, and thenthey put it back together
through using like silver or gold and it's stronger than it
was before, you know, and and that's, that's very much, I
mean, we're, we're talking, you know, spiritually, religiously,
faithfully, you know, we break bread.
You know, we, we, God wants a broken heart, not a bent heart.
(38:33):
The idea that we break ground, you know, to start something
new. There's so many, you know,
symbolic inventions of like breaking things, needing to
break and being broken to be better, you know, from muscles
having to to get stronger to, you know, you know, again, our
(38:54):
hearts being able to be strongerand more lovable and humble and
loving. And so not that I hate on any of
these guys, them I, I do agree, I think a lot of them come from
a very volatile. Upbringing.
Something traumatic happened andit's coming from a, you know,
(39:18):
dangerous hurt place, But I think the messaging is
everything for me. You know what I'm when a when a
guy sees lot, he reads lions notcheap.
Then it's super divisive and we know men may are 80% of all
suicides 80. And so when a guy doesn't feel
like he is a lion, then he's going to be a recluse.
(39:46):
And then suddenly in every way, and then suddenly he's lost all
value and thinks he's a failure.And then he leads our lives
forever. A lot of them.
So I, I am passionate about messaging, positive messaging,
not to say oh, oh, it's everything's freaking.
You know, ice cream and lollipops.
(40:08):
Not freaking. Wonka's factory here, but I it's
it's a it's one where we don't need to be so divisive and you
know what we're trying our point.
You know what we're trying like I love you Bros called I love
you bro simply because it's, youknow, for me, that's.
What was the exactly? Needed at the time and it just
(40:32):
kind of collectively that message represents all that
we're trying to do and if lion'snot sheep is collectively what
you're trying to do I I just don't I bet you if he's on here
he would be like well it's it's more than that you know it's
this this you know I get it. But that's the message that men
are hearing is just the lion's not cheap no one's coming to
(40:55):
save you That's terrible you know and again take it back to
the overpass Aaron. That's not going to help Aaron.
Well, we're what we're trying tosay is, well, then just save
those things, you know, save those things.
Make it simple for us men. We want simple structure,
simple, consistent. That's what men want.
(41:17):
And our data shows You give me some structured, simple
messaging. It will resonate with me, not
just. You know, I don't know about you
guys, but. It's just the way it works with
men, the way we process. So if you're giving me a, it is
structured and simple. Lion's not cheap.
It is catchy. That's going to resonate in one
(41:39):
way or another with me. And if but if the product of
that is what's you know, well, Lion's not cheap is it's
supposed to get guys, you know, to come be better, be, make, be
their best selves or whatever. There's a much better way to go
about that that shows brotherhood and love and support
(42:00):
and you are not alone. And I'll have the guys in Group.
You know, we had a guy coming who said, you know, he's had a
pornography addiction just trying to trying to kick and he
just craps on himself all the time, 'cause he'll have these
little stints where he. Goes for, you know, a couple.
Weeks and then you know, has a blip and then suddenly you know,
(42:24):
he's back at hating himself again.
And I said, man, just let's stopfor a second, bro.
Anyone who's ever watched pornography or had a pornography
addiction, raise your hand. And we have like 14 guys in
there, all 14 guys raising theirhands.
And so that what I love for me in my position is I literally
can say you are not alone. Look in this room, you know,
(42:50):
we're barking and pounding our chest on, you know, you are not
alone. Social media and every other
place. But for me, I'm able to show
these guys. Look at this.
Yeah, you know, me, myself included, you know, you name it.
And a lot of these. Oh, well.
And we can do that with a many things, you know, from
loneliness to grief, to many different addictions, divorce,
(43:10):
all that stuff. How many of us, you know, are
really so sad right now? So sad for what?
Every guy is raising their hand.And so there's so much power.
If are you going to get that saying, hey, how many guys are
lions, not sheep? I don't know how many guys are
going to they're they're going to want to raise their hand
because everybody else, you know, that's what they're
(43:30):
expected to do. But if I were to ask that of my
support groups, I'm not sure I get, you know, many hands going
up and that's the way I want it.That's the way I'll take it.
And I'm not just crapping on guys too.
We have a lot of messaging from women as well.
That's terrible. That the one that I hate the
most that I'm going to be postedon soon as the happy wife happy
(43:53):
life mentality. And then people people say,
well, no, the counter to that ishappy spouse happy house.
I'm like that doesn't work either.
For me. It's I crossed off happy wife,
happy life and I just put love at home and that is you.
(44:14):
You you talk about happy wife that OK, we're all bending the
knee to the happiness and joy ofthis family revolves around one
person. That's not right and very
unhealthy. OK, well then the happiness of
the mom and dad dictates, you know, the the health of the
(44:35):
family. That's not quite right either.
That leaves out our kids that were, you know, need to be a
part of that. And so for me, it's like just
simplicity. We'll love at home then we
should have that includes everyone who plays a part in the
joy that should be a collective effort of joy.
(44:56):
Sure led by the mom sure led by the dad LED hopefully leading
kids to also be leaders and bringing that to the home.
I am. I'm just one of those guys that
I messaging is crucial and what type of.
Messaging, are we? Giving our kids?
What type of messaging are we giving each other?
(45:17):
There are lots of guys. I know what's going to happen
when I make that post? Well, Joe, it's, it's just a
thing we say. It's just a joke.
Don't take it so seriously. But when a dude is struggling to
make his wife happy and maybe he's going, you know, that
mentality, if he's struggling, he, he will suddenly disappear
behind what do they call it a stoic?
(45:39):
But it's, it's, it's called, it's called numb, bro.
It's the numb is the new stoic. And that's when your guy will
start disappearing behind a maskand then eventually or hopefully
not, but disappear in general. And so I am a big proponent of
proper messaging. And.
(46:01):
Well, how do you come up with this?
Well, I just sit and think aboutit.
What is what is the message I want to say?
You know what? What do I want people to to
learn and to to think and to feel and to act.
So yeah. But I mean, people will want to
argue with me about this, that and the other.
I just know what I see in the groups, bro.
I just know how to see in our groups and, and what I see in
(46:21):
the data and what, what we permit, we promote, you know,
and if we're going to promote orI'm sorry, permit some of this
language. And some of these.
To continually be out there perpetuating stigma, it's just
going to get worse. So if I can, I have an
(46:43):
obligation to hopefully, especially with ILOB bro, we
have an obligation to educate and empower people to, to not
necessarily make these life changes, but just to make little
tweaks and, and some of the way we, we can just be better, you
know, moving, moving forward Well.
I like that because like, that'san.
Issue that we have as society isbecause message, like you said,
(47:04):
messaging, it sways everything. Like something we've talked
about that we've kind of gone against recently is man up like
that's I hate that big issue with.
Men nowadays, like we've been talking.
About that all month long like that it it creates this like in
your head like well, am I not man enough for this like no,
like I hate those two words yeah, I freaking.
(47:26):
Hate those words. I would say man up is probably
the worst one to me. You know, there's a whole
laundry list of statements that I disapprove of of myself, but
it it it's just not what we it'snot healthy.
It's not what is going to make Aaron come off of the ledge.
Imagine again, I go to Aaron andI say man up.
(47:48):
Well, Joe, that's. A crazy that's a that.
That's not an appropriate comparison.
Yes, it is because the assumption should be who who is.
Whoever is following. Your page or whoever's on your
website or using your app, the assumption should be that there
are many who are struggling and,and if your message is man up,
(48:15):
then that person, everybody, allof us up here and even in here,
we're on our own proverbial legends.
And when you when you come to mewith messaging like man up, then
you're, you're, you are not onlynot helping, you're actually
pushing, you're giving me a helpful snudge, you know, in the
(48:37):
wrong direction. So I think that needs more
questions than anything. It's like, what does that even
mean, you know? What is?
What does it mean man? Like what is like I think with.
The whole lines, like you think like they have a completely
different, different definition of what a man should be versus
like, you know, so it goes all into that.
(49:00):
But yeah, it's, it's, it's if wecould change that in society, I
think we could change a lot. And that would be a big factor.
In things. Yeah, Ben, I what?
Was I going to say here, you know the whole man up because
you, you said you brought up stats, right?
So 70. 5% of men that they negative self talk is the big
(49:20):
thing, right? So when you tell somebody who's
already talking bad about themselves to man up, they're
already well see, it just provesme right that I'm not man
enough, that I'm not. And then just the self talk,
negative self talk just continues to, you know, compile.
Then it's a. Compile and.
So. But yeah, no, I and all this
(49:41):
stuff, I love talking with you. I really do.
Joe, you're, I love talking withyou guys too.
Yeah. We have, we have lots of, you
know, there are lots of issues and we're all complex, we're all
unique and our issues are a little different.
I mean, when these guys come andcheck in, there's 20 different
things they can check and, and honestly that the list could be
(50:02):
forever long on different challenges these guys are
experiencing. I mean, one, one of the
questions they we have on our checking is, you know, what
emotions are you experiencing? And the number one emotion these
guys are feeling is number 1 is shame, or I should say ashamed.
(50:22):
And then right after that there is anxiety, anxious is right
after that. And I mean, I think shame is
about 52% my so that feeling shamed when they come to group.
And then the other question, what challenges you're facing.
Oh, negative self work worth. They don't they aren't
(50:43):
necessarily the same thing, but they work in tandem together
clearly. But what the shame and the I
should say the negative self talk.
They're attached to all of the other challenges these guys are
facing. So OK, fine.
And so if they check the box finances, financials, well,
look, I don't have a job, I don't make enough money.
(51:04):
I hate on myself. I don't bring up, you know, I
don't have enough value, you know, or if they're clicking
grief on I'm my wife died. I can't get over it.
So therefore, I'm, I have no value bringing people down
South. Shame and negative self talk are
attached to literally every other like addiction to, you
(51:25):
know, you name it, loneliness, all of them are attached.
That's just, it's clear and evident that absolutely negative
self talk is the number one thing we're all experiencing.
And and having said that, like you were saying, why are you
leading with man up? You know, but what I do know is
that what I I knew nothing aboutmental health on that overpass,
(51:49):
but I think I love you bro was aa good start in the right
direction that type of message. Yeah, definitely.
Well, we're basically at. Time so I just wanted to say
first and foremost thank you forcoming back on.
We absolutely love having you on.
That's why we asked you to come back on because just these raw
(52:14):
dialogue between US and then thestats and everything that you
give to from your experience andthe I love you Bro project.
It's just it just helps to solidify what we're talking
about. And like you're like, Oh my
gosh, when you bring stats up like that, like so majority of
men are feeling what I'm feeling.
(52:35):
I'm not alone. Like it's just like not.
Something you're like. Wow, I guess.
Everybody else is like, because when we start talking about it,
we're like, oh, you're going through that, I'm going through
that. Oh, you have that addiction.
I too, like, it's like, it's crazy because we all just want
to, you know, stick to our own. And we're so convinced that
we're the only one dealing with it.
That's what ends up being. The problem the, the most, the
(52:58):
most alarming stat that I have is I'm finishing a report for
the Utah Department of Health and Human Services, my annual
year end report, which is brain frying, but it forces me to
really look into the data that we have for this report.
The most alarming one that I sawwas that when asked, I pulled
(53:24):
125 women who have come through our I Love You SIS program,
mental health workshops to support men in their mental
health, pulled 125 of them. And one of the questions on this
poll is who do you think your husband or partner or husband or
(53:46):
the man in your life? The the men who are closest in
your life, who would you think they're most comfortable
reaching out to you when in an emotional crisis or mental
health crisis? The women, 83% of them said
spouse and the reality is when per I think total 6000 surveys
(54:11):
that I have for men, it's actually the least selected is
spouse at 13%. And So what what it does show is
women think that the men are going to reach out to them if
they're struggling. So, or they think that they are
(54:32):
the first responder, you know, in their husbands or the dads or
whoever's the closest dominant male in their life.
They think that they're the mosttrusted person that they're that
these men are going to come to. And so by no news is good news,
where whereas really men, only 13% of men are comfortable
(54:55):
reaching out to their spouse when in emotional or mental
health crisis. To me, it's heartbreaking.
It's staggering to think about. But it's a place where we need
to start having some freaking conversations, you know?
Then we go from there. Though I appreciate you guys
always having me on, Bros. Yeah, of course.
(55:17):
We love you, man. Thank you.
Love you Bros, and we, I mean. I always ask, but they can.
Find you a love Uber project if they want to reach out to you,
right? Yeah, yeah.
But love you bro. Project.org is our website has
all of our information. If you don't live in Utah where
all our services are, has some good best practices on there.
(55:40):
Honestly, it's just, you know, I, I want to say like everybody
else, you are not alone. You know, I know that doesn't
resonate well when we're hyper focused Tunnel tunnel vision on
the challenge that we're experiencing or the emotion that
we're serious at the time, but Ido it is absolutely like you
were saying, you quite literallyare not alone, Bros.
(56:00):
You know it's you, Gosh, you arenot and through your not
aloneness, you can feel some start to feel some level of
validation and and own those emotions for what they are.
Know that they're there and thenlet's trick and go through these
(56:21):
struggles together. You don't need to own them
alone, you know. And so that's the whole I love
you, bro project man is you don't have to be there and deal
with all this crap alone. You have people who will race to
help you. They will race to come to your,
to your aid, not lift everythingfor you, but they will come help
(56:43):
you. So we put in the work for
ourselves, you show up, and it'sa freaking beautiful, awesome
thing, man. What can I say?
I love you, Bros. Love you too, all right?
Everyone listen, we love you. Too And we'll see you guys in
the next.
Popular Podcasts
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show
The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show. Clay Travis and Buck Sexton tackle the biggest stories in news, politics and current events with intelligence and humor. From the border crisis, to the madness of cancel culture and far-left missteps, Clay and Buck guide listeners through the latest headlines and hot topics with fun and entertaining conversations and opinions.