February 24, 2025 • 63 mins
Pastor Daniel Justice leads this breakout session at DNow 2025: Changed called "Engaging a World of Beliefs."
In this bonus podcast episode, Pastor Daniel Justice explores the radical shift in young people's attitudes toward faith and church involvement. We discuss the reasons behind this trend, focusing on the importance of engaging in open conversations, understanding worldviews, and building relationships rooted in compassion and truth.
• Examination of the decline in church attendance
• Discussion of young people's feelings towards church
• Importance of listening to doubts and questions
• Understanding the definition of worldviews
• The significance of having open dialogues
• Exploring the concept of absolute truths versus relative truths
• Emphasis on building relationships over arguments
• Call for community support and genuine connections
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Thank you, guys for picking this breakout.
So, um, that would have beenreally.
That's really scary.
If you like, volunteer to doone of these and everybody can
just go where they want to, andif, like, nobody showed up, I
mean, that would be kind of bekind of sad.
So, but thank you for making menot feel like horrible and
question everything, uh, aboutmy life.
Right, like nobody wants tocome.
(00:20):
I'm just kidding.
I'm glad you're here, though,because this is going to be, I
think, a really helpful topic.
It's definitely one that I amreally passionate about having
conversations with studentsabout, because I think it's
something you guys are going toface as you grow up.
(00:43):
You guys are going to face asyou grow up.
You're already facing it, and Ithink, as adults, you guys are
going to be a generation that'sgoing to have to deal with this
long after.
Like you know, I can't remembermy name anymore, and you know,
like they put me in a homesomewhere, right, like you guys
are going to be the ones who aregoing to be dealing with
something we're seeing, um rightnow in our culture.
(01:06):
Your generation, um, and thegeneration right before you, and
even um, depending on where youare um, like your age is, we're
seeing something in our culturethat, uh, we've never seen
before like this.
And here, here's what it is youguys, your generation, are
(01:29):
walking away in record numbersfrom wanting to be part of a
church, a local church, likelike this one, and even beyond
that, walking away from faith atall.
Like, kind of there's like, asa generation your generation and
the one before you has said I'mnot sure that the church has
(01:52):
the answers for life.
That's kind of uh, a lot ofyour generation is saying that,
uh, and that's a big deal.
Uh, because we've seen a slowdecline in churches, church
attendance and involvement overthe years, but now it's like
happening, like all of a sudden,there's been this big spike in
(02:12):
it.
And so, as a pastor and assomebody who was a youth pastor
for about 25 years, so doingyouth ministry was my life Right
To look and see people thatwere in my youth groups growing
up start to say, you know, I'mjust going to walk away from
(02:34):
this.
Right, that's hard, that's hardto watch and it makes me say
what did we do wrong?
Right, like, like what happened, that you know that you would
even grow up around the thingsof God, hearing the Bible taught
, preached, maybe, being in ayouth group, maybe even serving
in a church, going on a missiontrip or working with children's
(02:54):
ministry, helping with vacation,Bible school, all those kinds
of things.
Right, that was kind of.
Maybe people who grew up doingthose things get to an age where
they're like, no, like this,just isn't it, like I don't know
that this really matters, likewhat is that about?
Um, and here's what I know.
Maybe nobody in this room willever be there.
(03:16):
Maybe you guys are the ones whoare going to say no, we believe
Jesus is the answer to life.
Right, he is the one who'sgoing to meet the deepest needs
of my heart.
He's the one.
Right.
The truth of God's word is thething that I am going to hold on
to, no matter what the worldaround me says I should or
(03:37):
shouldn't do.
Like the Bible is going to bethe thing I base my life on.
Maybe everybody in this roomyou're like no, I'm in, like,
and nothing's really going topersuade me.
And that's awesome.
I hope that's true.
But here's the deal.
I bet, if you haven't already,in the very near future, some of
your friends, maybe familymembers, maybe just classmates,
(04:00):
uh, one day, maybe friends incollege, uh, people you you work
with, you're going to encounterthis people are you're going to
engage with, people who maybeat one point were leaning in to
the things of God, but nowthey're like walking away from
anybody.
Already know people like that.
Any of you guys have people inyour life, maybe people you go
(04:22):
to school with, who just say youknow they believe something
completely different from you,and I'm not even talking like
another religion.
They've just kinda, they'vejust kinda got their own views
on everything and they questioneverything that has to do with
Christianity.
Anybody know people like that,all right.
So how do you that can beintimidating, right, that can be
(04:44):
intimidating to to try andengage with them?
Right, because here's whatusually happens.
Kind of one of two things wouldhappen.
Either you would say, well,we're just not going to talk
about God, right, like, we'rejust not going to bring that up,
we're just going to talk aboutsports or current events or
(05:05):
whatever.
It might be right, you may justtry to avoid anything that
deals with faith so that itdoesn't get awkward, right.
Or the other option is you tryto talk about it, but there's a
little bit of fear of like whatif they ask me something and I
don't know how to answer them?
Right?
What if they question what Ibelieve at my very core and it
(05:29):
shakes me to where I don't knowwhat to say, right, and then it
gets awkward and then, and whatif I end up losing that
friendship?
Or things get weird if it's afamily member?
I've got a couple of familymembers like that, and so those
conversations can be tough, andso what I want to help you guys
do for a few minutes today isactually kind of process how to
(05:51):
do that, right, how, with allkinds of different beliefs and
ideas that are out there in theworld.
I want to help to give you guys,hopefully, some clarity so that
you can be confident in whatyou believe and so that you can
engage in conversations withpeople who don't believe that
(06:15):
without a lot of fear, right,and anxiety, right.
To be able to be confident inthe way that you still engage
with people around you even ifthey don't they don't share the
same convictions and values andbeliefs that you do.
So that sound good.
You guys still want to stay inthe room, okay, just making sure
(06:35):
.
Just making sure we're allstill in here, all right.
So here's what I want you tounderstand.
Um, I want you to see some ofthe reasons, right, if this is
true, I want you to see some ofthe reasons.
Right, if this is true, I wantyou to see some of the reasons
why people say they're walkingaway from church or faith or
Jesus.
Right, they may use all kindsof different phrases to say, but
(06:55):
they're basically saying thesame thing.
Here's three of the top reasons.
The church, they would say, hasa lack of love or joy, kindness
, generosity.
Like the church doesn't seemvery loving, christians don't
seem very loving.
So, you know, I just don't knowthat I want anything to do with
(07:16):
that.
That's one of the big reasons.
People give another one thechurch wouldn't listen.
Right, I was wrestling withdoubts, I had questions, right,
maybe circumstances in my lifemade me really wonder God, what
are you doing?
Right, I don't understand.
I was taught all of this, butnow, the things going on in my
(07:37):
life, I don't know how to bringthose two things together and
reconcile them.
And so I went to somebody inthe church, maybe a pastor,
maybe a small group leader,maybe, you know, maybe just a
somebody, you know, a youthpastor.
I went to somebody and saidhelp me, because I'm I'm
wrestling with doubts, I don'tknow what to do.
(07:59):
And they didn't listen.
They just told me to get overit, right.
They just said oh, don't, don'twrestle with that, don't doubt,
right.
The problem's you right.
Just quit doubting and justsuck it up and believe, right.
So that's a reason people walkaway.
They didn't feel like when theywent to the church, that
anybody actually cared enough tolisten to the things they were
struggling with.
(08:21):
And the third one up here is thechurch was not able to engage
or dialogue with them when therewere opposing viewpoints being
shared, right.
Rather than be able to have aconversation that was peaceful,
(08:41):
helpful, right.
It just turned into like battlelines being drawn right.
Like it was like well, nowyou're the enemy.
If you don't believe what Ibelieve, then we're just going
to fight over it rather thanhave a conversation to figure
out.
Hey, where are we at?
What's going on?
Let's, let's try to talk aboutthis kind of a thing.
So these are three big reasonswhy your generation is saying,
(09:03):
nope, the church doesn't haveany answers for me.
Now here's the thing about allthree of these.
They all have something incommon.
They all deal with somethingthat you may have heard this,
you may be familiar with thisword, but they all deal with a
(09:23):
worldview.
All three of those reasons, andeven others that we could look
at, they get down.
They all boil down to somethingat their core, and that is a
person's worldview.
What is a worldview?
If you guys were going todefine a worldview, what would
you?
What would you say?
(09:44):
This Not a trick question, bythe way what's a worldview?
What is it?
Okay, all right.
(10:04):
So, yes, it has to do with theway we see things.
Yes, but do you know that eachand every one of you in this
room have a worldview?
Whether you know it or not,you've got one.
So what?
What would you say?
How would you define that then?
Like, what is what is aworldview?
Like, what is a worldview?
(10:29):
Yeah, did you have something?
Your viewpoint on how differentpeople should be treated as
humans and how you should reactto things.
(10:54):
And just the world?
Okay, just as the world, right,yes, so it's kind of hard to
describe, right, like you think,like you could define it just
by the words right, world andview how we see the world.
Right, that makes sense, butwhen you dig in, it's like, but,
but what are we talking abouthere?
That makes sense.
But when you dig in, it's like,but but what are we talking
about here?
It's basically, it is yourunderstanding of how things
(11:20):
begin and how the world hasmeaning.
Okay, that's a worldview, it is.
It is at the most basic level,how you see the world.
But when you really unpack that,it's not just how you look
around and say, oh well, I seeblue skies and I see trees, and
I see, like, that's not whatwe're talking about.
Right, it's more.
It gets to the heart of, like,what is life all about?
(11:40):
Why am I here?
So worldview deals with likepurpose.
It deals with origin how did Iget here?
And if and once I know why Igot here, like, what does that
mean?
Does life have meaning?
Right, that is a worldview.
Now you can go to school andyou can study, like philosophy,
(12:06):
and you can learn about allthese different worldviews.
Right, you can go to seminary,like bible college, like I did,
and you can take classes likeapologetics, where you learn how
to defend the bible and defendyour faith and you study
worldviews.
But here's the deal.
Uh, your worldview doesn't haveto have like a name, like one
(12:27):
of the like classic, likeworldviews.
Right, everybody's got one.
You've got a worldview.
Whether you've ever reallyarticulated it or sat down to
try to like formalize it or not,you have a belief about how you
got here, why you're here, whatis the purpose of life?
Is there right and wrong?
(12:49):
How do we discover what is trueand what is lies?
Right?
If I just started polling youguys and saying, right, tell me
about you know the origin ofpeople, how did we get here?
You could tell me what youbelieve about that.
Right?
If I said, tell me how we knowwhat is true, you could, you
(13:15):
could tell me something.
Right, you could.
If I said, tell me how to knowif life has meaning, you could,
you could tell me something.
Right, so you've got aworldview.
Here's the deal.
So do your friends?
Right, everybody's got one.
And so if we can get comfortablehaving conversations about
worldview and realizing that alot of the things people want to
(13:38):
debate and talk about reallyget back to this idea of a
worldview, it's going to be mucheasier for you to interact with
people who questionChristianity or question the
Bible.
So that's what I want us to dofor a few minutes, is kind of
understand how to have thosekinds of conversations, because
(13:59):
it's going to do two things it'sgoing to strengthen what you
believe when it's so that whenit's challenged, it's going to
strengthen what you believe whenit's so that, when it's
challenged Right, you can beconfident that you're that you
believe the right things.
But it's also going to help younot kind of be taken aback when
(14:27):
people challenge what youbelieve, so that you can
actually try to help them get tothe root of why they think what
they do and why they believewhat they believe right.
If you wrestle with it, you'regoing to be in a much better
place to help someone elsewrestle with it along the way.
Does that make sense?
All right, so to do this,there's three things we're going
to talk about here.
When we talk about havingconversations about worldview,
there's three things we've gotto remember.
The first one only God canchange a heart.
(14:53):
The second one this is wherewe'll spend the most time to
find, like we've got to remember, to find the truth substitute,
and basically what we mean bythat is if anybody has a
worldview that is not rooted inwhat the Bible says about how
the world began and how we canfind purpose and meaning in life
.
If anybody has a worldview thatdoesn't line up with the Bible,
right, what they've done isthey have substituted the truth
(15:18):
for something else.
And if you can help them seethat, you're well on your way to
helping them think through,maybe, some of the
inconsistencies of what they'vechosen to believe, right.
So we've got to learn how to dothat.
It's not a personal thing,right, it's no like we got to
have a conversation about truth,because what we believe about
(15:38):
truth really is going todetermine how we see the world,
and how we see the world isgoing to determine how we live.
So finding what people havesubstituted for the truth is
kind of a journey that we needto go on if we're going to have
these conversations.
And then, the last thing we'vegot to remember to build
relationships, not build anargument.
(15:59):
Right, as you engage withpeople who are questioning their
faith or have walked away fromthe church or who have never
been around the church andthey're just kind of
antagonistic toward the thingsof God.
Right, you may, because you'repassionate, because you love
Jesus.
Right, you may want to likelet's have a debate, right,
(16:20):
Anybody in here love a goodargument and a good debate.
One of my daughters does, right?
Anybody in here love a goodargument and a good debate.
One of my daughters does, and Ibet if you know my daughters
you can tell me which one of mygirls likes a good debate and a
good argument, right?
Here's the thing I've neverseen someone argue someone else
to Jesus, right.
(16:41):
I've never seen anyone do that,right.
I've never seen anyone do that.
But I have seen people buildrelationships and those
relationships become the conduitthat God uses to help someone
understand who Jesus is andstart following him.
(17:01):
So if we can remember thesethree things and know how to
work, navigate these threethings, I think we're well on
our way to being able to do whatit is we're talking about today
.
Fair enough, all right.
So you want to look at these?
Maybe break each of these downjust a little bit here.
Will that be helpful, all right?
First one only God can change aheart.
(17:22):
This one's pretty simple.
Why would we say this is animportant thing to remember?
Because we can put way too muchpressure on ourselves to think
it's up to us to have all theright answers, to know what to
say to someone who maybequestions something Right.
(17:42):
You ever had somebody maybethat's not a Christian, or maybe
they, you know, maybe theysomething right?
You ever had somebody?
Maybe that's not a Christian,or maybe they, you know, maybe
they are, but they they've gonethrough something really
difficult and they ask aquestion like why do bad things
happen to good people?
You ever heard that question?
You ever asked that question?
Sure Right, have you ever heardthe question?
(18:05):
Well, if God is loving and kindand if he's all powerful and
can do anything he wants to do,why does he allow pain and
suffering in this world?
If he's good and if he'spowerful, why would he do that?
Those are hard questions,aren't they Right?
(18:27):
And so we may really want toavoid those conversations.
And so, because we're like Iwouldn't know what to say to
someone if they ask a questionlike that, right?
So I'm just going to it's toomuch pressure.
What if I say the wrong thing?
What if I don't give them theright answer?
Here's the deal you could giveall the right answers in the
(18:50):
world, but you can never changetheir heart.
Just because you know the rightwords to say really doesn't
mean you're going to ever helpsomeone right?
Get to the place where theyplace their faith in Jesus.
Only God can do that, right.
Only God can open someone'seyes to see the truth of the
Bible, the truth of Jesus, andcome to a place where they place
(19:11):
his faith in them.
So the reason I want you tounderstand this one is because
of that first word, right there.
I want you to relax, right.
The pressure's not on you,right, even if you mess it up.
Not on you, right, even if youmess it up.
(19:33):
That's okay.
I remember the first person thatI ever got the opportunity to
pray with, who placed theirfaith in Jesus.
I was in middle school.
I had my neighbor, a guy thatlived across the street from me,
his family.
Like we were, like we were likeChristian Christians in middle
school, like where I lived, likeit was, it was bad, like it was
the right.
You know, we we didn't evenhave a TV in the house, like.
(19:56):
Like my mom and my sisters allwore skirts like down to their
ankles.
They wouldn't even wear pants,because Christian women didn't
wear pants.
Like we only read a King JamesBible.
I can think of a lot of otherthings.
I didn't get to go outside andplay on Sunday, because that was
God's day and it was a day ofrest, so I couldn't even go ride
my bike on Sundays.
I had to just sit on the couchand stare at my family.
(20:18):
Yeah, you're right.
Wow, yes, exactly what that was.
That's called legalism, right,where you think the way you stay
right with God is keeping abunch of rules.
And man, did my family have abunch of rules, right, and we
were judgy about people whodidn't follow the same rules we
(20:39):
did.
Right, that was kind of myfamily when I was in middle
school.
Well, we had neighbors acrossthe street.
They were nothing like us.
They didn't go to church.
Strike one they cussed and theydrank and they smoked.
Strike two Right, and you knowwe could.
Oh, the guy had an older sisterand they and she wore a two
(21:04):
piece bathing suit.
Oh, strike three, they're done.
Right, they are on a fast trackto hell, right.
That was kind of what wethought about these people that
lived across the street from us,which was horrible.
That was a horrible way to beand I'm so I hate that, right.
I regret that so much.
I didn't know any better, but Istill I'll look back and I hate
that.
But the boy wanted to be myfriend.
(21:25):
That was my age, and he wouldalways invite me to come over
and spend the night.
Well, do you think my parentswere going to let me go into
like that, like that den ofiniquity over there at his house
?
And no, no, you can't go overthere, right?
But they finally said but youknow, he can come over here and
he can spend the night with you.
I was like, okay, so we did.
(21:50):
He came over and he startedasking me he goes, you go to
church, don't you?
I said I do.
He said I've never been tochurch.
And so he just started askingquestions.
So like we were in sleepingbags in the living room floor,
right, that was, we were havinga sleepover and he was just
asking these questions before wewent to sleep.
And he was asking me about whatit means to be a Christian and
what Jesus is all about.
I said I never told anybody howto be saved and I tried to walk
(22:14):
this guy through like what itmeans to follow Jesus and it was
probably the worst likepresentation of the gospel that
anybody's ever given at anypoint in history.
I fumbled all over that thing.
My words were so messed up.
I got confused in the middle ofit, right, and I jumped to the
end.
I go no, I got to go back here.
(22:35):
I mean, it was a train wreck,right.
All the wrong words said it allthe wrong way, right, I had to
stop and start all over theplace, right.
But you know what happened atthe end of that?
He got saved.
He gave his life to Jesus.
Do you think it had anything todo with my words?
(22:56):
No, absolutely nothing.
So why would I tell you thatstory?
Because this is God.
God is the one working inpeople's hearts and if he wants
to use you, he's going to useyou, right, and he may, he may
choose to use you, but don'tfeel this pressure that somehow
(23:16):
you've got to be the one to doit.
Cool.
So just remember that.
Let that kind of bring yourblood pressure down, the anxiety
level down, when you're talkingto people.
You don't need it.
But now let's spend a little bitof time here in this section,
because we said the second thingthat we've got to do is find
(23:37):
what people are substituting forthe truth.
But before we even think aboutthat, we need to understand how
we know what is true.
Have you ever heard anybody saytruth is relative before?
No, if I, if somebody did saythat to you.
(23:59):
Well, if I believe, right, myworldview is that truth is
relative.
What are they saying abouttruth?
What does that mean?
Truth is relative.
Yeah, the truth varies for eachperson.
It's relative.
What's the opposite of relative, concrete or another word,
(24:26):
absolute Right?
So people, people might saytruth is relative.
So basically, here's whatthey're saying your truth
doesn't have to be my truth.
What's true for you doesn'thave to be true for me.
Right, truth should be up tothe interpretation of every
single person.
Right, that's that idea abouttruth.
(24:50):
If I said truth is relative, theBible doesn't talk about truth
that way.
The Bible talks about truth asbeing absolute Right.
And what does that mean?
There is things that are trueand there are things that are
not.
And the standard for that isnot each individual person.
(25:13):
The standard for that issomething else, right?
And so the way the Bible talksabout truth is to say, if
something is true, then it hasto be all three of these things
you see up on the screen rightnow.
It has to be all of these.
It has to be universal, it'sgot to be constant and it's got
(25:34):
to be objective.
If it's going to be thestandard for how we measure
truth or how we measure rightand wrong, it's got to be all
three of these things, right?
So if it's got to be universal,what does that mean?
Yeah, applies to everything,right, applies to all people
(25:55):
everywhere, right?
If it's universal, right.
So that means truth for us herein the United States can't be
different for truth for peoplewho live on the other side of
the world.
There's only one truth, becausetruth is universal, it applies
(26:16):
to all people everywhere.
But truth has also got to beconstant.
If it's a standard for truth,right.
If it's how you're going tomeasure truth, it's got to be
universal and it's also got tobe constant.
What does that mean?
It can't, what?
Yeah, it can't change, right.
It can't be the standard fortruth right now, but 20 years
(26:38):
from now it's moved and nowwe've got a new standard for
truth, right?
Can't?
No, truth is always truth.
If it's true, it's always beentrue, it applies to everybody
without exception and it doesn'tchange.
And then the third one is it hasto be objective.
And this gets to that point ofsaying where people say truth is
(26:59):
relative, right, if it'sobjective.
That means the standard has tolive outside of you because
you're not objective aboutyourself, are you?
I'm not objective about myself,right?
Like I have definite opinionsand I can't always see clearly
about about what's going on inmy life.
(27:21):
Right, I need something outsideof me that's objective to help
me see things sometimes.
Right, you guys ever have thathappen where you have someone
maybe it's your small groupleader, right, that you're
dealing with something andyou're so right in the middle of
it.
Right, you don't know whetherto go right or left or stop or
keep going, right, and you'rejust so confused.
(27:43):
But somebody that you sharewhat's going on with.
All of a sudden, they're ableto give you, like, clarity and
you're like huh, I hadn'tthought about it like that, I
hadn't seen that before.
Why were they able to do that?
Because they weren't in themiddle of it with you.
They were objective, they wereon the outside looking in, right
, and they could help you seeclearly.
(28:05):
Right, truth our standard fortruth has to be objective.
The source of it can't bewithin ourselves.
The source of it can't bewithin ourselves, right?
So all three of these thingshave to be part of our standard
for what is true, how we measuretruth.
(28:27):
If any of these are missing, itisn't a good standard for truth
.
Would you agree with that?
That if any of these conditionsaren't met, it's not a good
standard for truth?
Would you agree with that?
That if any of these conditionsaren't met, it's not a good
standard for truth?
Right?
What if it is something outsideof you?
And what if it is universal butit's not constant?
Is that a good standard fortruth If it's changing?
(28:50):
Like we can say that right?
We can say culturally, um, 50years ago it was culturally
believed right that a man and awoman living together before
they got married was wrong, evenif you weren't a Christian.
It was just believed it wastrue, right and wrong.
(29:12):
Right that it was wrong to livetogether before you got married
.
Is that, is that what oursociety says now?
No, right, not at all Right.
So the standard for right andwrong has moved, so it's not
constant, right?
So culture can't be a standardfor truth.
We've already said we can't bea standard for truth.
(29:34):
Right.
Already said we can't be astandard for truth.
Right, because we change ourminds all the time.
Right, we're not objective,we're not constant.
So all three of these thingsmust be part of anything we
would say we can use to measurewhat is right or wrong.
So that's important to know.
But then, so, knowing that,here's something I want you to
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think about with me, becausethese are the conversations that
you're going to be having.
These are the kinds ofquestions you can be asking, the
kinds of things you can belooking for when you're talking
to someone who maybe has adifferent worldview than you do.
All right, so let's, um,anybody have a good scenario.
(30:17):
I'll start there.
I can give you one.
But if you've got like a reallife one I'd much rather like,
I'd much rather use yours.
If you've got like a friend,maybe, who you know, not
necessarily part of anotherreligion, but they're just kind
of not religious and they havejust definite ideas, right, that
just really are anti what youbelieve as a Christian.
(30:39):
Anybody got somebody like thatalready in your life that you'd
love to take, that example forus to kind of dig into.
Yeah, exists, but he doesn't.
Okay, all right, cool.
So let's take somebody likethat Right.
(31:05):
We might say that person wecould use a word.
You ever heard the wordagnostic?
Agnostic?
It's just someone who isn'tsure what they believe.
They don't like deny thatthere's a God.
They're just kind ofindifferent.
Right, it's like sure he may bethere, but it doesn't really
(31:27):
impact me in any way.
Right, he may be, maybe not, Idon't know.
That's an agnostic, right, it'sjust someone who isn't sure
what they really believe about,about God.
So I think we could probablyclassify the person you're
talking about that way.
Right, it's like, oh, sure, hemay be there, there may be a God
, but I don't know that it'ssomebody I really am going to
(31:47):
really base my life on or reallygive a whole lot of thought to.
Okay, so how would you engagewith somebody like that?
You can use these, thesequestions to help with those
conversations.
And this is this is what I'mtalking about when I say, like
worldview conversations.
Right, first of all, what's theGod replacement in that person?
(32:17):
What have they substituted,what have they put in the place
of God in their life?
And you guys know I'm startingfrom the place with this
conversation that we believe theBible is the word of God.
We believe everything that weneed to know about who we are
right, that God created us inhis image, that we are sinners
(32:37):
in need of a savior and that theonly way for our relationship
with God to ever be right againis if someone took our place and
paid for our sin.
And Jesus is the one who didthat, and we must place our
faith in him in order to besaved and to be right with God.
Right, that's the worldview ofthe Bible, right?
(32:59):
And so someone who doesn't havethat worldview?
They have replaced God withsomething else in their life.
So in conversation, right,because remember our third point
, right that you've got to dothis conversationally.
(33:19):
You're not going to debatesomebody to it, you're not going
to argue somebody or beat themdown to finally get them to give
up and say, okay, I'll believewhat you believe.
It's not what's going to happen, right?
So in conversation, how do youhelp someone begin to see what
they've substituted for God intheir life?
What might you do?
(33:42):
You could mention thepossibility of things that could
take over your life, and thenyou might mention one that needs
.
You might mention one thatneeds.
You might mention one that'sthat you have a problem with,
and then that person will startto realize, without you actually
(34:02):
having to go to point it out,okay, all right.
So asking good questions, right?
Just kind of helping peopleunpack what it is they believe,
showing possibilities.
That's good.
Let's take somebody who wewould say maybe is agnostic.
(34:27):
What have they substituted forGod Themself?
How so?
I don't disagree with you, justhelp me think through that for
a minute.
How so have they replaced God,the God replacement, in an
(34:48):
agnostics worldview?
They've replaced it withthemselves.
Why would that be a truestatement?
They believe whatever theybelieve is what's best for them,
instead of having God saywhat's best for them.
They believe whatever they justbelieve.
Okay, yeah, right, they havemade themselves the determiner
(35:12):
of what is right and wrong, whatis real, what is not real right
.
They have made themselves thesource right For the decisions
they make.
Right.
That's really the.
If we get down to it a lot oftimes, that's the God
replacement and a lot of yourfriends and maybe people just
(35:34):
classmates, family members whoaren't Christians, if you really
boil it down to it a lot oftime, the conversation you're
wanting to have is justeventually to help someone see
that they've just substitutedGod and they've made themselves
God in their life Right, and yousee that come out in a lot of
ways, right?
(35:54):
Well, I'm the one who wants todetermine what is right or wrong
.
I want to determine what isreal and what is not real.
It's up to me to decide whatI'm going to do with God.
Right, he may be there, but itreally doesn't matter if I do
anything with it or not.
It's really inconsequential.
But it really doesn't matter ifI do anything with it or not.
(36:17):
It's really inconsequential,right?
So, a lot of times, what whatpeople do is they substitute
themselves for God in their life, and that's really at the heart
of almost every sinfulworldview or belief that's out
there.
It goes all the way back to thegarden of Eden.
If you think about the originalsin with Adam and Eve.
God told Adam and Eve to what?
(36:40):
Yeah, not to eat from the treeof the knowledge of good and
evil, right?
He said anything else, knockyourself out, enjoy it.
Knock yourself out, enjoy it.
(37:00):
Right.
But this one tree, don't eatfrom it.
What'd they do?
They ate from it.
Right?
The sin was not that they atefruit from a tree, right, the
sin is that they said they didnot have to submit to God's
authority in their life.
The sin was that they wanted tobe their own authority in life.
They wanted to replace God withthemselves, right, and we've
(37:23):
been doing that ever since overand over and over again.
So so that would be, you know.
So if we're taking that, wemight know quickly, as we talk
with someone and we unpack whatthey believe and why they don't
really want to place their faithin Jesus.
We might really get to thepoint of quickly realizing, oh,
you've substituted God forsomething else in your life,
(37:46):
just your own opinions and yourown thoughts.
Or maybe you place somebodyelse's opinions there and you're
following what a person says.
Right, you've replaced God withsomething.
But then you can go deeper,right With that, and you could
say how is that contradictory?
How are they contradictingthemselves?
Well, how does what theybelieve contradict itself or
(38:11):
anything else they see aroundthem, itself or anything else
they see around them?
How, for, like someone who isan agnostic who maybe says, sure
, there may be a God, but butyou know it's kind of
inconsequential whether he'sthere or not, like we realize
he's kind of substituted his ownintellect right In the place of
God?
How is that a contradiction towhat we know and what we can see
(38:33):
around us?
Is that a contradiction to whatwe know and what we can see
around us.
How does a God create theentire world?
Okay, all right, yes, so youguys are getting to it.
You're getting right to theheart of where I would go.
(38:54):
In a conversation like that,right, I would say I was like
man.
You know I'm kind of sarcastic,so sometimes that comes out in
my conversations.
But you know, I might say, mygoodness, you are brilliant,
(39:20):
brilliant, right, because you'rethe first person I've ever met,
right, who could say they thinkthere might be a God out there,
but it doesn't matter what theydo with him.
So you're telling me that,right, if there's a God, someone
who is omnipotent, all powerfulright, all knowing right,
someone who exists outside ofjust our world, right, like he
(39:45):
exists outside of time, you'resaying that there could be
somebody like that, but he hasno bearing on your life.
That's interesting that youcould say both of those things
could be true, that there couldbe a God like that, but what you
do with him really doesn'tmatter, and that you really
(40:06):
don't have to.
Your life is not like impactedby him in any way.
Do you see the contradictionthere in that, right?
So begin talking about that,right, that's a conversation to
have.
You don't have to be likeaccusatory about it.
You don't have to get likeargumentative about it.
Put it in the form of questions, have it in like a conversation
(40:28):
, like how did you get there?
Like how, when you're thinking,did you get to a place where
you could say, like someone whohas God status exists, but it
really doesn't impact my life?
Right, and you know and reallywant and then listen to what
they say.
Right, like how did you get tothat place?
Because I couldn't get thereright, like I could not get
(40:51):
where you are.
So help me understand how yougot there, right, because why?
Because you're seeing thecontradiction between those two
things.
Someone is saying we could alsouse this third one right here.
How has that person, with theirworldview, oversimplified
things?
What would we say about ourexample?
(41:12):
How is that belief anoversimplification of life?
Then Can you think of it?
Can you think of something?
Okay, okay, yeah, and that'sexactly.
(41:47):
Yes, both of these things,right, ties into the
contradiction, for sure, andsometimes these are one in the
same right.
The contradiction could be thatyou've oversimplified it, um,
but I would say, yes, absolutely, that you know.
So you're telling me that thething I should base my life on
and how I make decisions, how Iprocess right and wrong, how I
(42:10):
know what is true, how I knowwhat is false, how I know what
is true, how I know what isfalse, how I understand why I'm
here and what this life holdswhen it's over.
Right, like, that's anotherpart of your worldview.
Is what happens when you die?
Right, that's part of yourworldview.
And so for someone who says,yeah, there's a God, but it's
(42:31):
really up to me to decide whatI'm going to do with that
information, about whether Iwant to accept it or not, right,
so you're telling me.
Right.
And so a good way to talk aboutthat is to say you know, kind
(42:56):
of lean in asking questions, saysomething like so you created
the world, right, like, like,what have you done?
Right, like, like you know, didyou make yourself right?
Did you, did you, did youcreate your mind?
Right, like, how did you evenget the mind to think that there
could be a God but I don'treally have any responsibility
(43:19):
where he's concerned to doanything with him?
Like, how did you even get theknowledge to be able to arrive
at that conclusion?
How did you even get the braincapacity to even think through
that and rationalize it.
Right, it's anoversimplification.
Right, because they can't right.
(43:39):
At the end of the day, we knowthat right, like our minds.
Right Our complex things.
Right the ability to think, theability to reason, the ability
to make judgment calls aboutright and wrong, and right good
and bad.
Like to say that the that youknow, the ability to do that
(44:03):
just rests within ourselves,that somehow that is something
we did, like we all know that'snot true.
We didn't create ourselves.
Right, it's anoversimplification to get to a
place Right, to just say, hey,the source of truth is within me
, even if there is a God outthere who made everything, the
(44:26):
source for truth is in me.
Wow, you've contradictedyourself and you've really
oversimplified things at thatpoint.
And then the last one.
This is where everyconversation should get to, at
some point that you have withsomeone, even if they have a
completely different view of theworld than you do.
(44:47):
Talk to them about how Jesus isbetter than whatever it is
they've chosen to believe.
That is the easiest thing thatyou can do if you have a
relationship with him, becauseguess what you get?
To just talk about what he'sdone in your life and how you've
(45:09):
seen him prove time and timeagain that he is better than
anything else the world couldoffer.
So how could we do that forthis guy, this agnostic, right,
who says, yeah, there may be aGod, but he doesn't have any
kind of consequence or impact onmy life?
(45:29):
Like I don't really it's up tome to decide if or what I'm
going to do with him.
Right, like, the source fortruth is within me, not outside
of me.
Right, we've talked about howthat's a contradiction, we've
talked about how that's anoversimplification.
But how is Jesus, how is ourrelationship with Jesus better
(45:50):
than what this guy has chosen tobase his life on?
What would you say to thatperson if you were wanting to
say can I just show you?
Right, you've taken time withhim.
Right, you've had lunch withthem.
Right, You've gone to BlackRifle.
You've sat down and had coffeewith them.
You've hung out.
Right, you've kept it veryrelational, very conversational.
(46:12):
You haven't been argumentative,right, trying to, you know,
preach at them and beat themover the head.
You've listened to what theyhad to say.
You've asked questions.
You've tried to say, hey, I'mnot where you are, so show me
how you got there.
Right, and you've let them talkand finally you get to the
place where you can say, but canI just share with you how Jesus
(46:35):
is better than what you'vechosen to base your life on?
Can I just show you that?
What would you say to thatperson?
If you had gotten to that placein a conversation the person
we've been talking about howwould you show them you can tell
them how Jesus has moved inyour life personally and how you
(46:57):
can see him within your churchcommunity, around you?
Yeah, exactly, personalexamples, personal examples,
personal stories, absolutely Now.
But here's the deal.
Personal stories, absolutelyNow.
But here's the deal.
Pick personal examples that arereally, that really apply to
(47:21):
the situation that you'redealing with.
Right, like, yeah, sharing yourtestimony is great, but if the
thing we're trying to helpsomeone see is how they're
contradicting themselves and howthey've oversimplified the
meaning of life by saying it'sreally up to their ability to
process information and thendecide what they're going to do
with it, right, like, like,really, you right.
How would you say to them oh,my goodness, like, placing your
(47:42):
faith in Jesus is so much betterthan placing your faith in
yourself.
That's the that's really at theheart of that.
If that's what we're doing withan agnostic.
That's really at the heart ofthat.
If that's what we're doing withan agnostic, we are saying here
is how placing your faith inJesus is better than placing
your faith in yourself.
So what kind of examples mightyou give them to prove that is
(48:08):
true in your life?
Give me some real ones.
Have you ever had a time whereyou have placed your faith in
yourself and your own abilitiesor your own intellect, your own
good works right, your own youknow personality or charisma?
(48:31):
Have you ever done that?
Where you've, where you put allyour confidence in what you
possess, how did that go Tragic?
Now, have you ever had a momentwhere you recognize your
inability right, that man, Idon't have the answers right,
(48:55):
like I struggle, like I'm weak,I deal with temptation, I don't
always make good decisions right, and so I can't put my
confidence or my faith in myself.
I've got to put it.
I put it in Jesus.
And how did that turn out whenwe relied on him?
And how did that turn out whenwe relied on him instead of
(49:17):
ourselves?
That's a way to do that.
Last conversation questionthere in these truth
conversations.
Could I just give you a reallife example in my own life of a
(49:38):
time where I tried to figureout life on my own.
I was dealing with a difficultcircumstance and I tried to just
handle it and figure it out bymyself.
And you know what I realize Imay, I may, I may succeed some,
(50:01):
but eventually you know I'mgoing to fail, right, but you
know.
But when I rely on Christ, whenI place my faith in him, but
you know, but when I rely onChrist, when I place my faith in
him, I can have peace, I canhave confidence, the strength to
(50:25):
do the things that I can't doon my own.
I can trust that he can do themthrough me.
And I can also trust that, evenwhen I blow it, still that,
because my faith is in him andnot in me, I can have confidence
that I'm forgiven and I'maccepted and I'm loved and that
I'm part of his family and hewill pick me back up and work in
my life and continue to give methe opportunity to grow Right
(50:49):
man.
Jesus is so much better than meplacing my confidence in myself
.
So you kind of see how thisworks.
We just picked one littlescenario, but here's the
challenge I would give you guyslearn how to use these four
questions to help people get toa place where you can make the
(51:15):
case for how Jesus is better.
Another one that you're goingto come across, I guarantee,
over and over again, is someonesaying well, you know, life only
has meaning, the meaning thatyou give it.
Right.
There really is no God.
(51:35):
Right, like, if you need aspiritual crutch just to believe
that there's something outthere that gives you strength,
great.
But really, at the end of theday, it is really just about,
it's just about you, it's justabout what you want to believe,
and yours is going to bedifferent from mine, but that
doesn't make yours good and minebad or mine bad and yours good.
(51:55):
None of that matters.
Everything is just relative.
So you just follow your heartand you just do your thing and
I'll do mine, and we'll all justbe happy.
Don't try to put your truestandard on me and I won't try
to put mine on you, and we'llall just coexist and life will
(52:17):
be just grand.
Right, that's kind of the.
That is like the theme of ourworld right now.
Right, but you can use theseright here and you can quickly
expose what they've substitutedfor God.
Right.
Again, it gets back to self.
(52:37):
They've put themselves there.
But the contradiction is butwhat if you believe I'll really
make this simple Right?
What if you believe in yourheart of hearts that it's OK to
kill me and I really, in theheart of hearts, believe it's
not okay to kill me?
Right, are you allowed to killme with no consequence?
We're like no, daniel, that'sstupid.
(52:58):
Who says right If all truth isrelative?
Look, oh well, no, there aresome things we can know.
Killing is wrong.
Well, where did you get that?
How do you know killing iswrong?
Because you just told me it'sup to me to determine what I
believe about what's right andwrong.
It's an oversimplification.
Everybody realizes there is astandard for truth outside of
(53:20):
themselves and you can take itto that example every time.
If you're like, oh OK, I get itRight, like when you get to
some of these things that webelieve, like, oh well, human
life has value.
Well, how do you know it hasvalue If there's no God who
created it, if we're all justthe product of chance, then why
does life have value, right?
(53:41):
So just don't be afraid tothink right when somebody comes
at you with a belief that soundsvery contrary to what you hear
in church and what you read inthe Bible, don't just shut down
and go into a bubble right.
Explore it a little bit, like,think about it with them, right,
because what you'll do isyou'll eventually find the
(54:01):
contradictions, how it'sreplaced God, how it
oversimplifies things, andyou'll start to see how man,
what the Bible says about Jesusis so much better than anything
the world has to offer from anyother belief that's out there.
So don't be afraid to do that,because here's here's one of the
(54:22):
convictions that I have.
The longer I'm in ministry, thelonger I'm around people.
I think, when we go back tothose reasons we looked at about
why people are walking awayfrom the church and and even
from considering faith in Christ, you know, remember, one of
those answers is the churchwouldn't listen when they came
(54:43):
with their doubts and the churchwouldn't even dialogue with
them about things that maybewere opposed to what we believe.
I think the reason we've donethat right is because we're
scared, because we don't believethe Bible has the answers.
I think the church is guilty ofthat.
(55:08):
At our core, we at least don'tlive like we believe the Bible
has the answers to deal withpeople's doubts, to deal with
other worldviews, but can I tellyou guys, it does.
And so one of the amazingthings each and every one of us
has the opportunity to do as aChristian is to study this, to
(55:28):
know it, to ask questions and tobring those questions to the
word of God, because the word ofGod has answers, and the more
we realize that, the strongerour conviction gets that this is
what we should build our liveson.
And if that becomes more andmore conviction, then we're
(55:49):
going to go to it more and more,right, and then we're going to
have kind of a quiet confidenceto be able to engage with other
people that we love, that wecare about, about these kinds of
things, right, without gettingdefensive or scared to do it.
So, last thing, and then I'mgoing to let you guys go, scared
(56:11):
to do it.
So last thing, and then I'mgoing to let you guys go.
Remember I said the third thingwe had to think about first of
all.
What was the first one?
Remember that you can't whatyou can't change a heart, right?
You're not going to changeanybody's heart, you're not
going to talk anybody intobelieving, right?
That's a, that's a God thing.
So you can just relax and lethim use you Right.
(56:32):
The second one was deal withtruth.
Right, find those truthsubstitutes that people have,
and we just got through walkingthrough that.
But the third point was build arelationship, don't build an
argument.
Okay, sometimes our knowledgeof the Bible, we want to use it
as an offensive weapon, right,to just like go to battle with
somebody who doesn't believe it,just to make them look foolish.
(56:54):
I've never seen that workeither.
To draw someone to Jesus, right, it's got to be done in the
context of relationships.
So what do we mean by that?
It's going to take time.
It's probably not going to beone conversation that you have
with someone.
It's probably not going to beone conversation that you have
with someone, right, who is nota follower of jesus, who has
(57:17):
really deep doubts and questions.
It's going to take time.
So be willing to invest thetime.
It's going to take compassion.
You got to care about theperson, right, you've got it.
You've got to care about theperson, right, you've got to.
You've got to care about notjust be upset that they don't
(57:39):
believe what you believe, but belike, oh my goodness, like I
hate it for you, right, that yougo through your entire life
with no security, with no peace,with no purpose, because you
don't believe there's a God whomade you in his image and who
who created you for a purpose.
(57:59):
Right, you think all of that isjust, you know, by chance.
Like, how do you live like that?
Right, have compassion when youthink about people who have
these views that don't haveChrist at the center.
Right, allow the compassion youwould have for them.
Like that must be reallydifficult.
You must have some real seasonsof of worry and fear, and right
(58:22):
that you walk through, right,uh, if you're trying to walk
through it without Jesus.
So, be compassionate, be honest.
When you don't have an answerthat someone brings to you, it's
OK to say you don't have ananswer, to say I've never
thought about it that way and Idon't know how to respond.
(58:46):
Can I think about it and can wetalk about it later?
And then you go talk tosomebody like Garrett or like me
or like Pastor Jason, right,and you say, hey, here's the
situation I was presented, howwould I deal with this and we'll
try to help, right, but behonest enough to say, hey, I've
never thought about it that way,but I'm happy to think about it
(59:08):
that way with you and we'll tryto work through it.
Or to say, hey, I've dealt withthose same doubts before.
I asked those same questions.
Can I tell you how I've workedthrough them?
Be honest.
And then the last one just knowit can be messy.
It's not always going to beeasy.
Every conversation is probablynot going to turn into a
(59:29):
situation where that person seesthe light and they go oh, my
goodness, I was so wrong and youwere so right and I'm ready to
place my faith in Jesus right.
It may be a lifelongconversation.
There may be twists and turns.
There may be moments where theylike get ticked off right that
you didn't validate theirbeliefs right, and they may not
want anything to do with you fora little while.
(59:50):
But yet you keep showing up,you keep being kind, you keep
being compassionate in theirlife and then they give you
another chance.
It can get messy, so just be OKwith the mess.
If we can do these things, ifwe can start to get better at
processing the substitute forGod and how to walk them through
(01:00:13):
what that looks like, we'll geta lot better at having
conversations with people whobelieve differently than we do
and we'll have a much betterchance at pointing people toward
Jesus.
Cool, is this helpful?
Is this helpful Just to be ableto deal with it?
(01:00:35):
Hey, here's the thing I'd liketo offer to you guys.
You guys know I'm here at thechurch.
If you're a guest and you'renot part of the, you're not
always here in the youth groupat FBC I am always around.
I would be more than happy atany point to sit down with you
and deal with like a real lifeexample you might have of a
(01:00:57):
friend or a family member thatyou're trying to have
conversations with.
Like please, I mean it, I wouldbe more than happy to sit down
one on one and help you processexactly what you're working
through with someone, or maybeyour own doubts.
What you're working throughwith someone, or maybe your own
doubts, maybe things that you'restruggling with about how do I
reconcile what's going on in mylife right now with what I know
(01:01:18):
about God.
How do I make those two thingswork together?
Because right now they don'tseem to Like let's talk about
those things right, because wedon't listen and where we aren't
willing to engage with you onthings that you're wrestling
(01:01:39):
with or things that other peopleare wrestling with that you
want to help, so let us be yourresource to help you do that.
Okay, cause this is somethingwe're going to.
We're all going to spend alifetime learning.
I'm still learning to do this,uh, so it's part of it, but it's
a good place to start aconversation.
Okay, all right.
Well, that's all the time wegot.
(01:01:59):
So, uh, I was told to tell youthat if your small group leader
has already told you where tomeet, go there.
If they didn't go back to thehub and gallery and wait for
them there.
Okay, thank you guys for comingto this one.
I enjoyed it.
Thank you, guys for picking this breakout.
So, um, that would have beenreally.
That's really scary.
If you like, volunteer to doone of these and everybody can
just go where they want to, andif, like, nobody showed up, I
mean, that would be kind of bekind of sad.
So, but thank you for making menot feel like horrible and
question everything, uh, aboutmy life.
Right, like nobody wants tocome.
(00:20):
I'm just kidding.
I'm glad you're here, though,because this is going to be, I
think, a really helpful topic.
It's definitely one that I amreally passionate about having
conversations with studentsabout, because I think it's
something you guys are going toface as you grow up.
(00:43):
You guys are going to face asyou grow up.
You're already facing it, and Ithink, as adults, you guys are
going to be a generation that'sgoing to have to deal with this
long after.
Like you know, I can't remembermy name anymore, and you know,
like they put me in a homesomewhere, right, like you guys
are going to be the ones who aregoing to be dealing with
something we're seeing, um rightnow in our culture.
(01:06):
Your generation, um, and thegeneration right before you, and
even um, depending on where youare um, like your age is, we're
seeing something in our culturethat, uh, we've never seen
before like this.
And here, here's what it is youguys, your generation, are
(01:29):
walking away in record numbersfrom wanting to be part of a
church, a local church, likelike this one, and even beyond
that, walking away from faith atall.
Like, kind of there's like, asa generation your generation and
the one before you has said I'mnot sure that the church has
(01:52):
the answers for life.
That's kind of uh, a lot ofyour generation is saying that,
uh, and that's a big deal.
Uh, because we've seen a slowdecline in churches, church
attendance and involvement overthe years, but now it's like
happening, like all of a sudden,there's been this big spike in
(02:12):
it.
And so, as a pastor and assomebody who was a youth pastor
for about 25 years, so doingyouth ministry was my life Right
To look and see people thatwere in my youth groups growing
up start to say, you know, I'mjust going to walk away from
(02:34):
this.
Right, that's hard, that's hardto watch and it makes me say
what did we do wrong?
Right, like, like what happened, that you know that you would
even grow up around the thingsof God, hearing the Bible taught
, preached, maybe, being in ayouth group, maybe even serving
in a church, going on a missiontrip or working with children's
(02:54):
ministry, helping with vacation,Bible school, all those kinds
of things.
Right, that was kind of.
Maybe people who grew up doingthose things get to an age where
they're like, no, like this,just isn't it, like I don't know
that this really matters, likewhat is that about?
Um, and here's what I know.
Maybe nobody in this room willever be there.
(03:16):
Maybe you guys are the ones whoare going to say no, we believe
Jesus is the answer to life.
Right, he is the one who'sgoing to meet the deepest needs
of my heart.
He's the one.
Right.
The truth of God's word is thething that I am going to hold on
to, no matter what the worldaround me says I should or
(03:37):
shouldn't do.
Like the Bible is going to bethe thing I base my life on.
Maybe everybody in this roomyou're like no, I'm in, like,
and nothing's really going topersuade me.
And that's awesome.
I hope that's true.
But here's the deal.
I bet, if you haven't already,in the very near future, some of
your friends, maybe familymembers, maybe just classmates,
(04:00):
uh, one day, maybe friends incollege, uh, people you you work
with, you're going to encounterthis people are you're going to
engage with, people who maybeat one point were leaning in to
the things of God, but nowthey're like walking away from
anybody.
Already know people like that.
Any of you guys have people inyour life, maybe people you go
(04:22):
to school with, who just say youknow they believe something
completely different from you,and I'm not even talking like
another religion.
They've just kinda, they'vejust kinda got their own views
on everything and they questioneverything that has to do with
Christianity.
Anybody know people like that,all right.
So how do you that can beintimidating, right, that can be
(04:44):
intimidating to to try andengage with them?
Right, because here's whatusually happens.
Kind of one of two things wouldhappen.
Either you would say, well,we're just not going to talk
about God, right, like, we'rejust not going to bring that up,
we're just going to talk aboutsports or current events or
(05:05):
whatever.
It might be right, you may justtry to avoid anything that
deals with faith so that itdoesn't get awkward, right.
Or the other option is you tryto talk about it, but there's a
little bit of fear of like whatif they ask me something and I
don't know how to answer them?
Right?
What if they question what Ibelieve at my very core and it
(05:29):
shakes me to where I don't knowwhat to say, right, and then it
gets awkward and then, and whatif I end up losing that
friendship?
Or things get weird if it's afamily member?
I've got a couple of familymembers like that, and so those
conversations can be tough, andso what I want to help you guys
do for a few minutes today isactually kind of process how to
(05:51):
do that, right, how, with allkinds of different beliefs and
ideas that are out there in theworld.
I want to help to give you guys,hopefully, some clarity so that
you can be confident in whatyou believe and so that you can
engage in conversations withpeople who don't believe that
(06:15):
without a lot of fear, right,and anxiety, right.
To be able to be confident inthe way that you still engage
with people around you even ifthey don't they don't share the
same convictions and values andbeliefs that you do.
So that sound good.
You guys still want to stay inthe room, okay, just making sure
(06:35):
.
Just making sure we're allstill in here, all right.
So here's what I want you tounderstand.
Um, I want you to see some ofthe reasons, right, if this is
true, I want you to see some ofthe reasons.
Right, if this is true, I wantyou to see some of the reasons
why people say they're walkingaway from church or faith or
Jesus.
Right, they may use all kindsof different phrases to say, but
(06:55):
they're basically saying thesame thing.
Here's three of the top reasons.
The church, they would say, hasa lack of love or joy, kindness
, generosity.
Like the church doesn't seemvery loving, christians don't
seem very loving.
So, you know, I just don't knowthat I want anything to do with
(07:16):
that.
That's one of the big reasons.
People give another one thechurch wouldn't listen.
Right, I was wrestling withdoubts, I had questions, right,
maybe circumstances in my lifemade me really wonder God, what
are you doing?
Right, I don't understand.
I was taught all of this, butnow, the things going on in my
(07:37):
life, I don't know how to bringthose two things together and
reconcile them.
And so I went to somebody inthe church, maybe a pastor,
maybe a small group leader,maybe, you know, maybe just a
somebody, you know, a youthpastor.
I went to somebody and saidhelp me, because I'm I'm
wrestling with doubts, I don'tknow what to do.
(07:59):
And they didn't listen.
They just told me to get overit, right.
They just said oh, don't, don'twrestle with that, don't doubt,
right.
The problem's you right.
Just quit doubting and justsuck it up and believe, right.
So that's a reason people walkaway.
They didn't feel like when theywent to the church, that
anybody actually cared enough tolisten to the things they were
struggling with.
(08:21):
And the third one up here is thechurch was not able to engage
or dialogue with them when therewere opposing viewpoints being
shared, right.
Rather than be able to have aconversation that was peaceful,
(08:41):
helpful, right.
It just turned into like battlelines being drawn right.
Like it was like well, nowyou're the enemy.
If you don't believe what Ibelieve, then we're just going
to fight over it rather thanhave a conversation to figure
out.
Hey, where are we at?
What's going on?
Let's, let's try to talk aboutthis kind of a thing.
So these are three big reasonswhy your generation is saying,
(09:03):
nope, the church doesn't haveany answers for me.
Now here's the thing about allthree of these.
They all have something incommon.
They all deal with somethingthat you may have heard this,
you may be familiar with thisword, but they all deal with a
(09:23):
worldview.
All three of those reasons, andeven others that we could look
at, they get down.
They all boil down to somethingat their core, and that is a
person's worldview.
What is a worldview?
If you guys were going todefine a worldview, what would
you?
What would you say?
(09:44):
This Not a trick question, bythe way what's a worldview?
What is it?
Okay, all right.
(10:04):
So, yes, it has to do with theway we see things.
Yes, but do you know that eachand every one of you in this
room have a worldview?
Whether you know it or not,you've got one.
So what?
What would you say?
How would you define that then?
Like, what is what is aworldview?
Like, what is a worldview?
(10:29):
Yeah, did you have something?
Your viewpoint on how differentpeople should be treated as
humans and how you should reactto things.
(10:54):
And just the world?
Okay, just as the world, right,yes, so it's kind of hard to
describe, right, like you think,like you could define it just
by the words right, world andview how we see the world.
Right, that makes sense, butwhen you dig in, it's like, but,
but what are we talking abouthere?
That makes sense.
But when you dig in, it's like,but but what are we talking
about here?
It's basically, it is yourunderstanding of how things
(11:20):
begin and how the world hasmeaning.
Okay, that's a worldview, it is.
It is at the most basic level,how you see the world.
But when you really unpack that,it's not just how you look
around and say, oh well, I seeblue skies and I see trees, and
I see, like, that's not whatwe're talking about.
Right, it's more.
It gets to the heart of, like,what is life all about?
(11:40):
Why am I here?
So worldview deals with likepurpose.
It deals with origin how did Iget here?
And if and once I know why Igot here, like, what does that
mean?
Does life have meaning?
Right, that is a worldview.
Now you can go to school andyou can study, like philosophy,
(12:06):
and you can learn about allthese different worldviews.
Right, you can go to seminary,like bible college, like I did,
and you can take classes likeapologetics, where you learn how
to defend the bible and defendyour faith and you study
worldviews.
But here's the deal.
Uh, your worldview doesn't haveto have like a name, like one
(12:27):
of the like classic, likeworldviews.
Right, everybody's got one.
You've got a worldview.
Whether you've ever reallyarticulated it or sat down to
try to like formalize it or not,you have a belief about how you
got here, why you're here, whatis the purpose of life?
Is there right and wrong?
(12:49):
How do we discover what is trueand what is lies?
Right?
If I just started polling youguys and saying, right, tell me
about you know the origin ofpeople, how did we get here?
You could tell me what youbelieve about that.
Right?
If I said, tell me how we knowwhat is true, you could, you
(13:15):
could tell me something.
Right, you could.
If I said, tell me how to knowif life has meaning, you could,
you could tell me something.
Right, so you've got aworldview.
Here's the deal.
So do your friends?
Right, everybody's got one.
And so if we can get comfortablehaving conversations about
worldview and realizing that alot of the things people want to
(13:38):
debate and talk about reallyget back to this idea of a
worldview, it's going to be mucheasier for you to interact with
people who questionChristianity or question the
Bible.
So that's what I want us to dofor a few minutes, is kind of
understand how to have thosekinds of conversations, because
(13:59):
it's going to do two things it'sgoing to strengthen what you
believe when it's so that whenit's challenged, it's going to
strengthen what you believe whenit's so that, when it's
challenged Right, you can beconfident that you're that you
believe the right things.
But it's also going to help younot kind of be taken aback when
(14:27):
people challenge what youbelieve, so that you can
actually try to help them get tothe root of why they think what
they do and why they believewhat they believe right.
If you wrestle with it, you'regoing to be in a much better
place to help someone elsewrestle with it along the way.
Does that make sense?
All right, so to do this,there's three things we're going
to talk about here.
When we talk about havingconversations about worldview,
there's three things we've gotto remember.
The first one only God canchange a heart.
(14:53):
The second one this is wherewe'll spend the most time to
find, like we've got to remember, to find the truth substitute,
and basically what we mean bythat is if anybody has a
worldview that is not rooted inwhat the Bible says about how
the world began and how we canfind purpose and meaning in life
.
If anybody has a worldview thatdoesn't line up with the Bible,
right, what they've done isthey have substituted the truth
(15:18):
for something else.
And if you can help them seethat, you're well on your way to
helping them think through,maybe, some of the
inconsistencies of what they'vechosen to believe, right.
So we've got to learn how to dothat.
It's not a personal thing,right, it's no like we got to
have a conversation about truth,because what we believe about
(15:38):
truth really is going todetermine how we see the world,
and how we see the world isgoing to determine how we live.
So finding what people havesubstituted for the truth is
kind of a journey that we needto go on if we're going to have
these conversations.
And then, the last thing we'vegot to remember to build
relationships, not build anargument.
(15:59):
Right, as you engage withpeople who are questioning their
faith or have walked away fromthe church or who have never
been around the church andthey're just kind of
antagonistic toward the thingsof God.
Right, you may, because you'repassionate, because you love
Jesus.
Right, you may want to likelet's have a debate, right,
(16:20):
Anybody in here love a goodargument and a good debate.
One of my daughters does, right?
Anybody in here love a goodargument and a good debate.
One of my daughters does, and Ibet if you know my daughters
you can tell me which one of mygirls likes a good debate and a
good argument, right?
Here's the thing I've neverseen someone argue someone else
to Jesus, right.
(16:41):
I've never seen anyone do that,right.
I've never seen anyone do that.
But I have seen people buildrelationships and those
relationships become the conduitthat God uses to help someone
understand who Jesus is andstart following him.
(17:01):
So if we can remember thesethree things and know how to
work, navigate these threethings, I think we're well on
our way to being able to do whatit is we're talking about today
.
Fair enough, all right.
So you want to look at these?
Maybe break each of these downjust a little bit here.
Will that be helpful, all right?
First one only God can change aheart.
(17:22):
This one's pretty simple.
Why would we say this is animportant thing to remember?
Because we can put way too muchpressure on ourselves to think
it's up to us to have all theright answers, to know what to
say to someone who maybequestions something Right.
(17:42):
You ever had somebody maybethat's not a Christian, or maybe
they, you know, maybe theysomething right?
You ever had somebody?
Maybe that's not a Christian,or maybe they, you know, maybe
they are, but they they've gonethrough something really
difficult and they ask aquestion like why do bad things
happen to good people?
You ever heard that question?
You ever asked that question?
Sure Right, have you ever heardthe question?
(18:05):
Well, if God is loving and kindand if he's all powerful and
can do anything he wants to do,why does he allow pain and
suffering in this world?
If he's good and if he'spowerful, why would he do that?
Those are hard questions,aren't they Right?
(18:27):
And so we may really want toavoid those conversations.
And so, because we're like Iwouldn't know what to say to
someone if they ask a questionlike that, right?
So I'm just going to it's toomuch pressure.
What if I say the wrong thing?
What if I don't give them theright answer?
Here's the deal you could giveall the right answers in the
(18:50):
world, but you can never changetheir heart.
Just because you know the rightwords to say really doesn't
mean you're going to ever helpsomeone right?
Get to the place where theyplace their faith in Jesus.
Only God can do that, right.
Only God can open someone'seyes to see the truth of the
Bible, the truth of Jesus, andcome to a place where they place
(19:11):
his faith in them.
So the reason I want you tounderstand this one is because
of that first word, right there.
I want you to relax, right.
The pressure's not on you,right, even if you mess it up.
Not on you, right, even if youmess it up.
(19:33):
That's okay.
I remember the first person thatI ever got the opportunity to
pray with, who placed theirfaith in Jesus.
I was in middle school.
I had my neighbor, a guy thatlived across the street from me,
his family.
Like we were, like we were likeChristian Christians in middle
school, like where I lived, likeit was, it was bad, like it was
the right.
You know, we we didn't evenhave a TV in the house, like.
(19:56):
Like my mom and my sisters allwore skirts like down to their
ankles.
They wouldn't even wear pants,because Christian women didn't
wear pants.
Like we only read a King JamesBible.
I can think of a lot of otherthings.
I didn't get to go outside andplay on Sunday, because that was
God's day and it was a day ofrest, so I couldn't even go ride
my bike on Sundays.
I had to just sit on the couchand stare at my family.
(20:18):
Yeah, you're right.
Wow, yes, exactly what that was.
That's called legalism, right,where you think the way you stay
right with God is keeping abunch of rules.
And man, did my family have abunch of rules, right, and we
were judgy about people whodidn't follow the same rules we
(20:39):
did.
Right, that was kind of myfamily when I was in middle
school.
Well, we had neighbors acrossthe street.
They were nothing like us.
They didn't go to church.
Strike one they cussed and theydrank and they smoked.
Strike two Right, and you knowwe could.
Oh, the guy had an older sisterand they and she wore a two
(21:04):
piece bathing suit.
Oh, strike three, they're done.
Right, they are on a fast trackto hell, right.
That was kind of what wethought about these people that
lived across the street from us,which was horrible.
That was a horrible way to beand I'm so I hate that, right.
I regret that so much.
I didn't know any better, but Istill I'll look back and I hate
that.
But the boy wanted to be myfriend.
(21:25):
That was my age, and he wouldalways invite me to come over
and spend the night.
Well, do you think my parentswere going to let me go into
like that, like that den ofiniquity over there at his house
?
And no, no, you can't go overthere, right?
But they finally said but youknow, he can come over here and
he can spend the night with you.
I was like, okay, so we did.
(21:50):
He came over and he startedasking me he goes, you go to
church, don't you?
I said I do.
He said I've never been tochurch.
And so he just started askingquestions.
So like we were in sleepingbags in the living room floor,
right, that was, we were havinga sleepover and he was just
asking these questions before wewent to sleep.
And he was asking me about whatit means to be a Christian and
what Jesus is all about.
I said I never told anybody howto be saved and I tried to walk
(22:14):
this guy through like what itmeans to follow Jesus and it was
probably the worst likepresentation of the gospel that
anybody's ever given at anypoint in history.
I fumbled all over that thing.
My words were so messed up.
I got confused in the middle ofit, right, and I jumped to the
end.
I go no, I got to go back here.
(22:35):
I mean, it was a train wreck,right.
All the wrong words said it allthe wrong way, right, I had to
stop and start all over theplace, right.
But you know what happened atthe end of that?
He got saved.
He gave his life to Jesus.
Do you think it had anything todo with my words?
(22:56):
No, absolutely nothing.
So why would I tell you thatstory?
Because this is God.
God is the one working inpeople's hearts and if he wants
to use you, he's going to useyou, right, and he may, he may
choose to use you, but don'tfeel this pressure that somehow
(23:16):
you've got to be the one to doit.
Cool.
So just remember that.
Let that kind of bring yourblood pressure down, the anxiety
level down, when you're talkingto people.
You don't need it.
But now let's spend a little bitof time here in this section,
because we said the second thingthat we've got to do is find
(23:37):
what people are substituting forthe truth.
But before we even think aboutthat, we need to understand how
we know what is true.
Have you ever heard anybody saytruth is relative before?
No, if I, if somebody did saythat to you.
(23:59):
Well, if I believe, right, myworldview is that truth is
relative.
What are they saying abouttruth?
What does that mean?
Truth is relative.
Yeah, the truth varies for eachperson.
It's relative.
What's the opposite of relative, concrete or another word,
(24:26):
absolute Right?
So people, people might saytruth is relative.
So basically, here's whatthey're saying your truth
doesn't have to be my truth.
What's true for you doesn'thave to be true for me.
Right, truth should be up tothe interpretation of every
single person.
Right, that's that idea abouttruth.
(24:50):
If I said truth is relative, theBible doesn't talk about truth
that way.
The Bible talks about truth asbeing absolute Right.
And what does that mean?
There is things that are trueand there are things that are
not.
And the standard for that isnot each individual person.
(25:13):
The standard for that issomething else, right?
And so the way the Bible talksabout truth is to say, if
something is true, then it hasto be all three of these things
you see up on the screen rightnow.
It has to be all of these.
It has to be universal, it'sgot to be constant and it's got
(25:34):
to be objective.
If it's going to be thestandard for how we measure
truth or how we measure rightand wrong, it's got to be all
three of these things, right?
So if it's got to be universal,what does that mean?
Yeah, applies to everything,right, applies to all people
(25:55):
everywhere, right?
If it's universal, right.
So that means truth for us herein the United States can't be
different for truth for peoplewho live on the other side of
the world.
There's only one truth, becausetruth is universal, it applies
(26:16):
to all people everywhere.
But truth has also got to beconstant.
If it's a standard for truth,right.
If it's how you're going tomeasure truth, it's got to be
universal and it's also got tobe constant.
What does that mean?
It can't, what?
Yeah, it can't change, right.
It can't be the standard fortruth right now, but 20 years
(26:38):
from now it's moved and nowwe've got a new standard for
truth, right?
Can't?
No, truth is always truth.
If it's true, it's always beentrue, it applies to everybody
without exception and it doesn'tchange.
And then the third one is it hasto be objective.
And this gets to that point ofsaying where people say truth is
(26:59):
relative, right, if it'sobjective.
That means the standard has tolive outside of you because
you're not objective aboutyourself, are you?
I'm not objective about myself,right?
Like I have definite opinionsand I can't always see clearly
about about what's going on inmy life.
(27:21):
Right, I need something outsideof me that's objective to help
me see things sometimes.
Right, you guys ever have thathappen where you have someone
maybe it's your small groupleader, right, that you're
dealing with something andyou're so right in the middle of
it.
Right, you don't know whetherto go right or left or stop or
keep going, right, and you'rejust so confused.
(27:43):
But somebody that you sharewhat's going on with.
All of a sudden, they're ableto give you, like, clarity and
you're like huh, I hadn'tthought about it like that, I
hadn't seen that before.
Why were they able to do that?
Because they weren't in themiddle of it with you.
They were objective, they wereon the outside looking in, right
, and they could help you seeclearly.
(28:05):
Right, truth our standard fortruth has to be objective.
The source of it can't bewithin ourselves.
The source of it can't bewithin ourselves, right?
So all three of these thingshave to be part of our standard
for what is true, how we measuretruth.
(28:27):
If any of these are missing, itisn't a good standard for truth
.
Would you agree with that?
That if any of these conditionsaren't met, it's not a good
standard for truth?
Would you agree with that?
That if any of these conditionsaren't met, it's not a good
standard for truth?
Right?
What if it is something outsideof you?
And what if it is universal butit's not constant?
Is that a good standard fortruth If it's changing?
(28:50):
Like we can say that right?
We can say culturally, um, 50years ago it was culturally
believed right that a man and awoman living together before
they got married was wrong, evenif you weren't a Christian.
It was just believed it wastrue, right and wrong.
(29:12):
Right that it was wrong to livetogether before you got married
.
Is that, is that what oursociety says now?
No, right, not at all Right.
So the standard for right andwrong has moved, so it's not
constant, right?
So culture can't be a standardfor truth.
We've already said we can't bea standard for truth.
(29:34):
Right.
Already said we can't be astandard for truth.
Right, because we change ourminds all the time.
Right, we're not objective,we're not constant.
So all three of these thingsmust be part of anything we
would say we can use to measurewhat is right or wrong.
So that's important to know.
But then, so, knowing that,here's something I want you to
(29:56):
think about with me, becausethese are the conversations that
you're going to be having.
These are the kinds ofquestions you can be asking, the
kinds of things you can belooking for when you're talking
to someone who maybe has adifferent worldview than you do.
All right, so let's, um,anybody have a good scenario.
(30:17):
I'll start there.
I can give you one.
But if you've got like a reallife one I'd much rather like,
I'd much rather use yours.
If you've got like a friend,maybe, who you know, not
necessarily part of anotherreligion, but they're just kind
of not religious and they havejust definite ideas, right, that
just really are anti what youbelieve as a Christian.
(30:39):
Anybody got somebody like thatalready in your life that you'd
love to take, that example forus to kind of dig into.
Yeah, exists, but he doesn't.
Okay, all right, cool.
So let's take somebody likethat Right.
(31:05):
We might say that person wecould use a word.
You ever heard the wordagnostic?
Agnostic?
It's just someone who isn'tsure what they believe.
They don't like deny thatthere's a God.
They're just kind ofindifferent.
Right, it's like sure he may bethere, but it doesn't really
(31:27):
impact me in any way.
Right, he may be, maybe not, Idon't know.
That's an agnostic, right, it'sjust someone who isn't sure
what they really believe about,about God.
So I think we could probablyclassify the person you're
talking about that way.
Right, it's like, oh, sure, hemay be there, there may be a God
, but I don't know that it'ssomebody I really am going to
(31:47):
really base my life on or reallygive a whole lot of thought to.
Okay, so how would you engagewith somebody like that?
You can use these, thesequestions to help with those
conversations.
And this is this is what I'mtalking about when I say, like
worldview conversations.
Right, first of all, what's theGod replacement in that person?
(32:17):
What have they substituted,what have they put in the place
of God in their life?
And you guys know I'm startingfrom the place with this
conversation that we believe theBible is the word of God.
We believe everything that weneed to know about who we are
right, that God created us inhis image, that we are sinners
(32:37):
in need of a savior and that theonly way for our relationship
with God to ever be right againis if someone took our place and
paid for our sin.
And Jesus is the one who didthat, and we must place our
faith in him in order to besaved and to be right with God.
Right, that's the worldview ofthe Bible, right?
(32:59):
And so someone who doesn't havethat worldview?
They have replaced God withsomething else in their life.
So in conversation, right,because remember our third point
, right that you've got to dothis conversationally.
(33:19):
You're not going to debatesomebody to it, you're not going
to argue somebody or beat themdown to finally get them to give
up and say, okay, I'll believewhat you believe.
It's not what's going to happen, right?
So in conversation, how do youhelp someone begin to see what
they've substituted for God intheir life?
What might you do?
(33:42):
You could mention thepossibility of things that could
take over your life, and thenyou might mention one that needs
.
You might mention one thatneeds.
You might mention one that'sthat you have a problem with,
and then that person will startto realize, without you actually
(34:02):
having to go to point it out,okay, all right.
So asking good questions, right?
Just kind of helping peopleunpack what it is they believe,
showing possibilities.
That's good.
Let's take somebody who wewould say maybe is agnostic.
(34:27):
What have they substituted forGod Themself?
How so?
I don't disagree with you, justhelp me think through that for
a minute.
How so have they replaced God,the God replacement, in an
(34:48):
agnostics worldview?
They've replaced it withthemselves.
Why would that be a truestatement?
They believe whatever theybelieve is what's best for them,
instead of having God saywhat's best for them.
They believe whatever they justbelieve.
Okay, yeah, right, they havemade themselves the determiner
(35:12):
of what is right and wrong, whatis real, what is not real right
.
They have made themselves thesource right For the decisions
they make.
Right.
That's really the.
If we get down to it a lot oftimes, that's the God
replacement and a lot of yourfriends and maybe people just
(35:34):
classmates, family members whoaren't Christians, if you really
boil it down to it a lot oftime, the conversation you're
wanting to have is justeventually to help someone see
that they've just substitutedGod and they've made themselves
God in their life Right, and yousee that come out in a lot of
ways, right?
(35:54):
Well, I'm the one who wants todetermine what is right or wrong
.
I want to determine what isreal and what is not real.
It's up to me to decide whatI'm going to do with God.
Right, he may be there, but itreally doesn't matter if I do
anything with it or not.
It's really inconsequential.
But it really doesn't matter ifI do anything with it or not.
(36:17):
It's really inconsequential,right?
So, a lot of times, what whatpeople do is they substitute
themselves for God in their life, and that's really at the heart
of almost every sinfulworldview or belief that's out
there.
It goes all the way back to thegarden of Eden.
If you think about the originalsin with Adam and Eve.
God told Adam and Eve to what?
(36:40):
Yeah, not to eat from the treeof the knowledge of good and
evil, right?
He said anything else, knockyourself out, enjoy it.
Knock yourself out, enjoy it.
(37:00):
Right.
But this one tree, don't eatfrom it.
What'd they do?
They ate from it.
Right?
The sin was not that they atefruit from a tree, right, the
sin is that they said they didnot have to submit to God's
authority in their life.
The sin was that they wanted tobe their own authority in life.
They wanted to replace God withthemselves, right, and we've
(37:23):
been doing that ever since overand over and over again.
So so that would be, you know.
So if we're taking that, wemight know quickly, as we talk
with someone and we unpack whatthey believe and why they don't
really want to place their faithin Jesus.
We might really get to thepoint of quickly realizing, oh,
you've substituted God forsomething else in your life,
(37:46):
just your own opinions and yourown thoughts.
Or maybe you place somebodyelse's opinions there and you're
following what a person says.
Right, you've replaced God withsomething.
But then you can go deeper,right With that, and you could
say how is that contradictory?
How are they contradictingthemselves?
Well, how does what theybelieve contradict itself or
(38:11):
anything else they see aroundthem, itself or anything else
they see around them?
How, for, like someone who isan agnostic who maybe says, sure
, there may be a God, but butyou know it's kind of
inconsequential whether he'sthere or not, like we realize
he's kind of substituted his ownintellect right In the place of
God?
How is that a contradiction towhat we know and what we can see
(38:33):
around us?
Is that a contradiction to whatwe know and what we can see
around us.
How does a God create theentire world?
Okay, all right, yes, so youguys are getting to it.
You're getting right to theheart of where I would go.
(38:54):
In a conversation like that,right, I would say I was like
man.
You know I'm kind of sarcastic,so sometimes that comes out in
my conversations.
But you know, I might say, mygoodness, you are brilliant,
(39:20):
brilliant, right, because you'rethe first person I've ever met,
right, who could say they thinkthere might be a God out there,
but it doesn't matter what theydo with him.
So you're telling me that,right, if there's a God, someone
who is omnipotent, all powerfulright, all knowing right,
someone who exists outside ofjust our world, right, like he
(39:45):
exists outside of time, you'resaying that there could be
somebody like that, but he hasno bearing on your life.
That's interesting that youcould say both of those things
could be true, that there couldbe a God like that, but what you
do with him really doesn'tmatter, and that you really
(40:06):
don't have to.
Your life is not like impactedby him in any way.
Do you see the contradictionthere in that, right?
So begin talking about that,right, that's a conversation to
have.
You don't have to be likeaccusatory about it.
You don't have to get likeargumentative about it.
Put it in the form of questions, have it in like a conversation
(40:28):
, like how did you get there?
Like how, when you're thinking,did you get to a place where
you could say, like someone whohas God status exists, but it
really doesn't impact my life?
Right, and you know and reallywant and then listen to what
they say.
Right, like how did you get tothat place?
Because I couldn't get thereright, like I could not get
(40:51):
where you are.
So help me understand how yougot there, right, because why?
Because you're seeing thecontradiction between those two
things.
Someone is saying we could alsouse this third one right here.
How has that person, with theirworldview, oversimplified
things?
What would we say about ourexample?
(41:12):
How is that belief anoversimplification of life?
Then Can you think of it?
Can you think of something?
Okay, okay, yeah, and that'sexactly.
(41:47):
Yes, both of these things,right, ties into the
contradiction, for sure, andsometimes these are one in the
same right.
The contradiction could be thatyou've oversimplified it, um,
but I would say, yes, absolutely, that you know.
So you're telling me that thething I should base my life on
and how I make decisions, how Iprocess right and wrong, how I
(42:10):
know what is true, how I knowwhat is false, how I know what
is true, how I know what isfalse, how I understand why I'm
here and what this life holdswhen it's over.
Right, like, that's anotherpart of your worldview.
Is what happens when you die?
Right, that's part of yourworldview.
And so for someone who says,yeah, there's a God, but it's
(42:31):
really up to me to decide whatI'm going to do with that
information, about whether Iwant to accept it or not, right,
so you're telling me.
Right.
And so a good way to talk aboutthat is to say you know, kind
(42:56):
of lean in asking questions, saysomething like so you created
the world, right, like, like,what have you done?
Right, like, like you know, didyou make yourself right?
Did you, did you, did youcreate your mind?
Right, like, how did you evenget the mind to think that there
could be a God but I don'treally have any responsibility
(43:19):
where he's concerned to doanything with him?
Like, how did you even get theknowledge to be able to arrive
at that conclusion?
How did you even get the braincapacity to even think through
that and rationalize it.
Right, it's anoversimplification.
Right, because they can't right.
(43:39):
At the end of the day, we knowthat right, like our minds.
Right Our complex things.
Right the ability to think, theability to reason, the ability
to make judgment calls aboutright and wrong, and right good
and bad.
Like to say that the that youknow, the ability to do that
(44:03):
just rests within ourselves,that somehow that is something
we did, like we all know that'snot true.
We didn't create ourselves.
Right, it's anoversimplification to get to a
place Right, to just say, hey,the source of truth is within me
, even if there is a God outthere who made everything, the
(44:26):
source for truth is in me.
Wow, you've contradictedyourself and you've really
oversimplified things at thatpoint.
And then the last one.
This is where everyconversation should get to, at
some point that you have withsomeone, even if they have a
completely different view of theworld than you do.
(44:47):
Talk to them about how Jesus isbetter than whatever it is
they've chosen to believe.
That is the easiest thing thatyou can do if you have a
relationship with him, becauseguess what you get?
To just talk about what he'sdone in your life and how you've
(45:09):
seen him prove time and timeagain that he is better than
anything else the world couldoffer.
So how could we do that forthis guy, this agnostic, right,
who says, yeah, there may be aGod, but he doesn't have any
kind of consequence or impact onmy life?
(45:29):
Like I don't really it's up tome to decide if or what I'm
going to do with him.
Right, like, the source fortruth is within me, not outside
of me.
Right, we've talked about howthat's a contradiction, we've
talked about how that's anoversimplification.
But how is Jesus, how is ourrelationship with Jesus better
(45:50):
than what this guy has chosen tobase his life on?
What would you say to thatperson if you were wanting to
say can I just show you?
Right, you've taken time withhim.
Right, you've had lunch withthem.
Right, You've gone to BlackRifle.
You've sat down and had coffeewith them.
You've hung out.
Right, you've kept it veryrelational, very conversational.
(46:12):
You haven't been argumentative,right, trying to, you know,
preach at them and beat themover the head.
You've listened to what theyhad to say.
You've asked questions.
You've tried to say, hey, I'mnot where you are, so show me
how you got there.
Right, and you've let them talkand finally you get to the
place where you can say, but canI just share with you how Jesus
(46:35):
is better than what you'vechosen to base your life on?
Can I just show you that?
What would you say to thatperson?
If you had gotten to that placein a conversation the person
we've been talking about howwould you show them you can tell
them how Jesus has moved inyour life personally and how you
(46:57):
can see him within your churchcommunity, around you?
Yeah, exactly, personalexamples, personal examples,
personal stories, absolutely Now.
But here's the deal.
Personal stories, absolutelyNow.
But here's the deal.
Pick personal examples that arereally, that really apply to
(47:21):
the situation that you'redealing with.
Right, like, yeah, sharing yourtestimony is great, but if the
thing we're trying to helpsomeone see is how they're
contradicting themselves and howthey've oversimplified the
meaning of life by saying it'sreally up to their ability to
process information and thendecide what they're going to do
with it, right, like, like,really, you right.
How would you say to them oh,my goodness, like, placing your
(47:42):
faith in Jesus is so much betterthan placing your faith in
yourself.
That's the that's really at theheart of that.
If that's what we're doing withan agnostic.
That's really at the heart ofthat.
If that's what we're doing withan agnostic, we are saying here
is how placing your faith inJesus is better than placing
your faith in yourself.
So what kind of examples mightyou give them to prove that is
(48:08):
true in your life?
Give me some real ones.
Have you ever had a time whereyou have placed your faith in
yourself and your own abilitiesor your own intellect, your own
good works right, your own youknow personality or charisma?
(48:31):
Have you ever done that?
Where you've, where you put allyour confidence in what you
possess, how did that go Tragic?
Now, have you ever had a momentwhere you recognize your
inability right, that man, Idon't have the answers right,
(48:55):
like I struggle, like I'm weak,I deal with temptation, I don't
always make good decisions right, and so I can't put my
confidence or my faith in myself.
I've got to put it.
I put it in Jesus.
And how did that turn out whenwe relied on him?
And how did that turn out whenwe relied on him instead of
(49:17):
ourselves?
That's a way to do that.
Last conversation questionthere in these truth
conversations.
Could I just give you a reallife example in my own life of a
(49:38):
time where I tried to figureout life on my own.
I was dealing with a difficultcircumstance and I tried to just
handle it and figure it out bymyself.
And you know what I realize Imay, I may, I may succeed some,
(50:01):
but eventually you know I'mgoing to fail, right, but you
know.
But when I rely on Christ, whenI place my faith in him, but
you know, but when I rely onChrist, when I place my faith in
him, I can have peace, I canhave confidence, the strength to
(50:25):
do the things that I can't doon my own.
I can trust that he can do themthrough me.
And I can also trust that, evenwhen I blow it, still that,
because my faith is in him andnot in me, I can have confidence
that I'm forgiven and I'maccepted and I'm loved and that
I'm part of his family and hewill pick me back up and work in
my life and continue to give methe opportunity to grow Right
(50:49):
man.
Jesus is so much better than meplacing my confidence in myself
.
So you kind of see how thisworks.
We just picked one littlescenario, but here's the
challenge I would give you guyslearn how to use these four
questions to help people get toa place where you can make the
(51:15):
case for how Jesus is better.
Another one that you're goingto come across, I guarantee,
over and over again, is someonesaying well, you know, life only
has meaning, the meaning thatyou give it.
Right.
There really is no God.
(51:35):
Right, like, if you need aspiritual crutch just to believe
that there's something outthere that gives you strength,
great.
But really, at the end of theday, it is really just about,
it's just about you, it's justabout what you want to believe,
and yours is going to bedifferent from mine, but that
doesn't make yours good and minebad or mine bad and yours good.
(51:55):
None of that matters.
Everything is just relative.
So you just follow your heartand you just do your thing and
I'll do mine, and we'll all justbe happy.
Don't try to put your truestandard on me and I won't try
to put mine on you, and we'llall just coexist and life will
(52:17):
be just grand.
Right, that's kind of the.
That is like the theme of ourworld right now.
Right, but you can use theseright here and you can quickly
expose what they've substitutedfor God.
Right.
Again, it gets back to self.
(52:37):
They've put themselves there.
But the contradiction is butwhat if you believe I'll really
make this simple Right?
What if you believe in yourheart of hearts that it's OK to
kill me and I really, in theheart of hearts, believe it's
not okay to kill me?
Right, are you allowed to killme with no consequence?
We're like no, daniel, that'sstupid.
(52:58):
Who says right If all truth isrelative?
Look, oh well, no, there aresome things we can know.
Killing is wrong.
Well, where did you get that?
How do you know killing iswrong?
Because you just told me it'sup to me to determine what I
believe about what's right andwrong.
It's an oversimplification.
Everybody realizes there is astandard for truth outside of
(53:20):
themselves and you can take itto that example every time.
If you're like, oh OK, I get itRight, like when you get to
some of these things that webelieve, like, oh well, human
life has value.
Well, how do you know it hasvalue If there's no God who
created it, if we're all justthe product of chance, then why
does life have value, right?
(53:41):
So just don't be afraid tothink right when somebody comes
at you with a belief that soundsvery contrary to what you hear
in church and what you read inthe Bible, don't just shut down
and go into a bubble right.
Explore it a little bit, like,think about it with them, right,
because what you'll do isyou'll eventually find the
(54:01):
contradictions, how it'sreplaced God, how it
oversimplifies things, andyou'll start to see how man,
what the Bible says about Jesusis so much better than anything
the world has to offer from anyother belief that's out there.
So don't be afraid to do that,because here's here's one of the
(54:22):
convictions that I have.
The longer I'm in ministry, thelonger I'm around people.
I think, when we go back tothose reasons we looked at about
why people are walking awayfrom the church and and even
from considering faith in Christ, you know, remember, one of
those answers is the churchwouldn't listen when they came
(54:43):
with their doubts and the churchwouldn't even dialogue with
them about things that maybewere opposed to what we believe.
I think the reason we've donethat right is because we're
scared, because we don't believethe Bible has the answers.
I think the church is guilty ofthat.
(55:08):
At our core, we at least don'tlive like we believe the Bible
has the answers to deal withpeople's doubts, to deal with
other worldviews, but can I tellyou guys, it does.
And so one of the amazingthings each and every one of us
has the opportunity to do as aChristian is to study this, to
(55:28):
know it, to ask questions and tobring those questions to the
word of God, because the word ofGod has answers, and the more
we realize that, the strongerour conviction gets that this is
what we should build our liveson.
And if that becomes more andmore conviction, then we're
(55:49):
going to go to it more and more,right, and then we're going to
have kind of a quiet confidenceto be able to engage with other
people that we love, that wecare about, about these kinds of
things, right, without gettingdefensive or scared to do it.
So, last thing, and then I'mgoing to let you guys go, scared
(56:11):
to do it.
So last thing, and then I'mgoing to let you guys go.
Remember I said the third thingwe had to think about first of
all.
What was the first one?
Remember that you can't whatyou can't change a heart, right?
You're not going to changeanybody's heart, you're not
going to talk anybody intobelieving, right?
That's a, that's a God thing.
So you can just relax and lethim use you Right.
(56:32):
The second one was deal withtruth.
Right, find those truthsubstitutes that people have,
and we just got through walkingthrough that.
But the third point was build arelationship, don't build an
argument.
Okay, sometimes our knowledgeof the Bible, we want to use it
as an offensive weapon, right,to just like go to battle with
somebody who doesn't believe it,just to make them look foolish.
(56:54):
I've never seen that workeither.
To draw someone to Jesus, right, it's got to be done in the
context of relationships.
So what do we mean by that?
It's going to take time.
It's probably not going to beone conversation that you have
with someone.
It's probably not going to beone conversation that you have
with someone, right, who is nota follower of jesus, who has
(57:17):
really deep doubts and questions.
It's going to take time.
So be willing to invest thetime.
It's going to take compassion.
You got to care about theperson, right, you've got it.
You've got to care about theperson, right, you've got to.
You've got to care about notjust be upset that they don't
(57:39):
believe what you believe, but belike, oh my goodness, like I
hate it for you, right, that yougo through your entire life
with no security, with no peace,with no purpose, because you
don't believe there's a God whomade you in his image and who
who created you for a purpose.
(57:59):
Right, you think all of that isjust, you know, by chance.
Like, how do you live like that?
Right, have compassion when youthink about people who have
these views that don't haveChrist at the center.
Right, allow the compassion youwould have for them.
Like that must be reallydifficult.
You must have some real seasonsof of worry and fear, and right
(58:22):
that you walk through, right,uh, if you're trying to walk
through it without Jesus.
So, be compassionate, be honest.
When you don't have an answerthat someone brings to you, it's
OK to say you don't have ananswer, to say I've never
thought about it that way and Idon't know how to respond.
(58:46):
Can I think about it and can wetalk about it later?
And then you go talk tosomebody like Garrett or like me
or like Pastor Jason, right,and you say, hey, here's the
situation I was presented, howwould I deal with this and we'll
try to help, right, but behonest enough to say, hey, I've
never thought about it that way,but I'm happy to think about it
(59:08):
that way with you and we'll tryto work through it.
Or to say, hey, I've dealt withthose same doubts before.
I asked those same questions.
Can I tell you how I've workedthrough them?
Be honest.
And then the last one just knowit can be messy.
It's not always going to beeasy.
Every conversation is probablynot going to turn into a
(59:29):
situation where that person seesthe light and they go oh, my
goodness, I was so wrong and youwere so right and I'm ready to
place my faith in Jesus right.
It may be a lifelongconversation.
There may be twists and turns.
There may be moments where theylike get ticked off right that
you didn't validate theirbeliefs right, and they may not
want anything to do with you fora little while.
(59:50):
But yet you keep showing up,you keep being kind, you keep
being compassionate in theirlife and then they give you
another chance.
It can get messy, so just be OKwith the mess.
If we can do these things, ifwe can start to get better at
processing the substitute forGod and how to walk them through
(01:00:13):
what that looks like, we'll geta lot better at having
conversations with people whobelieve differently than we do
and we'll have a much betterchance at pointing people toward
Jesus.
Cool, is this helpful?
Is this helpful Just to be ableto deal with it?
(01:00:35):
Hey, here's the thing I'd liketo offer to you guys.
You guys know I'm here at thechurch.
If you're a guest and you'renot part of the, you're not
always here in the youth groupat FBC I am always around.
I would be more than happy atany point to sit down with you
and deal with like a real lifeexample you might have of a
(01:00:57):
friend or a family member thatyou're trying to have
conversations with.
Like please, I mean it, I wouldbe more than happy to sit down
one on one and help you processexactly what you're working
through with someone, or maybeyour own doubts.
What you're working throughwith someone, or maybe your own
doubts, maybe things that you'restruggling with about how do I
reconcile what's going on in mylife right now with what I know
(01:01:18):
about God.
How do I make those two thingswork together?
Because right now they don'tseem to Like let's talk about
those things right, because wedon't listen and where we aren't
willing to engage with you onthings that you're wrestling
(01:01:39):
with or things that other peopleare wrestling with that you
want to help, so let us be yourresource to help you do that.
Okay, cause this is somethingwe're going to.
We're all going to spend alifetime learning.
I'm still learning to do this,uh, so it's part of it, but it's
a good place to start aconversation.
Okay, all right.
Well, that's all the time wegot.
(01:01:59):
So, uh, I was told to tell youthat if your small group leader
has already told you where tomeet, go there.
If they didn't go back to thehub and gallery and wait for
them there.
Okay, thank you guys for comingto this one.
I enjoyed it.
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