February 24, 2025 • 59 mins
Teresa Moen and Staci Thompson lead this breakout session at DNow 2025: Changed called "Who is Your Jesus?"
In this bonus episode, Cherie Kassinger explores the varying beliefs about Jesus Christ across different faiths, emphasizing the stark differences in understanding Him as the figure of salvation and deity. By examining the views of Christians, Jehovah's Witnesses, and Mormons, we encourage listeners to consider the implications of these beliefs in the narratives of salvation and spiritual identity.
• Discussing the nature of Jesus from a Christian perspective
• Examining beliefs of Jehovah's Witnesses on Jesus' identity
• Understanding the Mormon interpretation of Jesus as a spirit child
• Contrasting views on salvation across different faiths
• The significance of resurrection narratives in Christian doctrine
• Highlighting the importance of knowledge in interfaith discussions
• Encouraging relationship-building across belief systems
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
So let's start with.
When somebody says to youbecause you meet people all the
time in high school, I guaranteeyou in middle school, high
school, that look like you, talklike you talk about going to
worship, talk about praying,that you might even pray in your
presence in the name of JesusChrist.
Right, they look and sound likeus, but how do you know that
that's the same person when theystart inviting you to your
(00:22):
church, well, you need to cometo our church.
How do you know that that's thechurch you want to go to?
And the fundamental question weneed to always ask is who is
your Jesus?
Speaker 2 (00:42):
So now you have to do some work and tell me what you
know about Jesus.
Bless you, go for it.
Thank you.
Jesus is our Lord savior, okay,down to save us.
It's in the christianity beliefokay, also my belief that, um,
uh, that he died on the cross tosave us from our sins and you
cannot go to heaven without himand he was from Nazareth Right
(01:12):
and I can't spell all the whitewords.
Speaker 3 (01:16):
Something else he is perfect and has never sinned and
lived a perfect life.
Speaker 1 (01:26):
We'll talk a little bit more about that one.
Speaker 3 (01:29):
He loves us everlasting.
That's not the word.
Speaker 1 (01:33):
Eternally.
Yes, eternally orunconditionally.
Eternalality, that's the word.
He was raised from the dead.
He was raised from the dead, hewas raised from the dead.
Speaker 3 (01:49):
And he's the son of God.
Speaker 1 (01:53):
What else?
What was the last one?
Speaker 2 (01:56):
He's the son of God.
Speaker 1 (01:57):
Son of God.
Which son of God, the only, theonly son of God right.
Speaker 2 (02:03):
Yes, sort of.
So he sits right next to God,but I do believe that God also
calls us.
Speaker 1 (02:15):
He adopted us into the family.
We are adopted sons anddaughters into the family, but
we are.
He is the only begotten son ofGod.
Right Go to John 3.16.
He's the only begotten son ofGod.
Right Go to John 3, 16.
He's the only begotten son ofGod.
So, yes, so in this case he'sthat.
But you're right, we areadopted as sons and daughters
into Christ's family when webelieve in Jesus Christ.
Anything else in there.
(02:37):
Who was his mother Mary?
Right, and she was a virgin.
So she was born of a virgin andwe're not going to get into all
of the other stuff around that.
But he was in what?
Speaker 2 (02:58):
He's fully son, I mean, he's fully God and fully
human.
Speaker 1 (03:01):
Thank you.
He's fully God and fully human.
Okay, that's quite a list toget started with, isn't it?
So let's start looking at whatthe others believe, because they
(03:25):
don't believe all this.
They believe differently.
So we're going to start withthe Jehovah's Witness and I'm
going to pick.
Well, let's start with theeternality.
We're going to go to this one.
Okay, according to the JehovahWitnesses, he did not always
exist.
He was not always eternal.
(03:45):
He was created as an angel, andI have a ton of notes for you
guys, so I'm not going to givethem to you until we're finished
with the whiteboard, okay?
So once I give you the notes,you'll get a lot of this.
He was known as Michael.
Do you all know Michael, thearchangel, right Until he came
(04:14):
to do his work on earth?
That's what they believe aboutthat.
But what do the Mormons believe?
The Mormons believe he was bornSpell it right as a child, a
(04:46):
spirit, child of the, who iseternal and heavenly mother, and
I'm just going to read me hername.
How far from the truth is that?
Does that give you an idea ofhow different their Jesus is
already?
So let's go to fully God andfully human, because, in this
(05:11):
case, the Jehovah's Witnessbelieve and I'm going to combine
that with born of the Virgin.
Okay, so the Jehovah Witnessesbelieve that when it was time
for Jesus to come to the earth,for the prophecies to be
(05:31):
fulfilled, that God, jehovah,who's the name of their God, the
only name of God transferred toMary's womb the spirit of Jesus
Christ that's how they defineit and that he was not divine.
(05:52):
He was perfectly human, andthat is how they explain the
Immaculate Conception that hewas transferred to her womb.
(06:16):
When we get over here, jesusChrist is not divine.
Again, you start to see how farfrom the truth people can get
(06:38):
right.
One of the things let's seeresurrected.
He was recreated and he was notcrucified on a cross.
He was crucified on what theycalled a torture pole.
(06:59):
Here he was crucified.
Let me see if I can get thisright.
He was crucified on a stake.
(07:25):
What do we believe about thework of Jesus Christ on the
cross?
Speaker 2 (07:36):
We believe that he rose from the dead.
Speaker 1 (07:39):
Okay, what work did he do while he was on the cross?
He took our sins.
What work did he do while hewas on the cross?
Speaker 3 (07:46):
Go ahead.
Speaker 2 (07:47):
He took our sins he atoned for every sin we were all
going to commit.
Speaker 1 (08:04):
He raised people from the dead and he also healed
those who were sick and thosewho weren't able to walk Right.
But we believe that JesusChrist on the cross, when the
darkness came over the earth, itwas the separation from God and
he was paying for the sins ofall people.
The Mormons believe that hisatoning work happened in the
garden.
They don't believe it happenedhere, but the atonement was
actually in the garden.
They don't believe it happenedhere, but the atonement was
(08:26):
actually in the garden.
And remember your scripture.
That's when he started to sweatthe.
Remember he sweat the blood,the drops of blood.
That's what the Jehovah'sWitness interpret as the atoning
work.
That was when he did theatonement for us.
(08:46):
We say that he was resurrected,we have resurrected here.
We also say that he wasresurrected bodily because
people could what Touch him,feel him right.
They saw him eat.
So we believe in a bodilyresurrection.
Here he was recreated and hereit is a spirit.
(09:07):
It was not a bodilyresurrection.
What do you mean?
He was recreated, hm Likerenewed, like reborn like, were
healed.
Speaker 2 (09:22):
What's the question?
The question was what is?
Speaker 1 (09:24):
recreated.
Recreated was that that he,they, he was recreated as a
spirit.
They took the dead body.
It's in essence, it is aresurrection, but that it was
recreated, that is the word thatthey use.
They do not use resurrection.
They don't celebrate EasterSunday.
They, they celebrate thecrucifixion.
(09:44):
They don't celebrate EasterSunday.
They celebrate the crucifixion.
They don't celebrate EasterSunday.
So we all believe that he wasburied, we all believe that, we
believe that he is our Redeemer.
Right, and we don't have thatup here.
But, savior, redeemer, did theycelebrate Christmas?
I'm sorry.
Speaker 2 (09:59):
Did they celebrate Christmas?
Speaker 1 (10:01):
No, jehovah's Witnesses do not.
What about Mormons?
They do, they do, they do.
So we believe that he was ourRedeemer.
Jehovah's Witnesses believethat Jehovah, jehovah, who is
(10:21):
the only God, is the only God.
He has the eternal.
That's spelled wrong.
Speaker 2 (10:38):
Okay, jesus will rule for the thousand years of
paradise.
That is actually true, but nottrue.
So Jesus is God.
There is the Son of God.
I've been taught that he is God, so he will.
(11:02):
It does say in Scripture, inthe Bible, somewhere in
Revelation, but it says that thedevil will be sent to like a
burning pit for a thousand years, and those thousand years will
be peaceful.
(11:22):
So that is true, true.
Speaker 1 (11:26):
And then what comes next?
Speaker 2 (11:30):
Then it comes back out.
Speaker 1 (11:31):
I don't really know, okay, so what happens then is
that Satan is defeated, he'sreleased and defeated, okay.
And then the second coming isthe New Jerusalem and people
live in peace in heaven.
What they believe is after thethousand years on earth,
everybody is annihilated.
That's cute what they believe,that at the end of the thousand
(11:55):
years everybody goes away.
Speaker 3 (11:57):
On earth?
Is earth not a thousand yearsold?
Speaker 1 (12:03):
No, this is the thousand year reign of Jesus at
the end of time, the paradise onearth for a thousand years old.
No, this is the thousand yearreign of Jesus at the end of
time, the paradise on earth fora thousand years.
And then, at the end, everybodyjust goes away.
Speaker 2 (12:15):
I know semi kind of what Judaism is.
Judaism, yeah, judaism, it'sbasically the belief, not of the
New Testament, basically thewhole Old Testament and a lot
more ceremony.
Speaker 1 (12:31):
Okay, let me take a question up here.
Okay, I was just wondering.
Speaker 3 (12:34):
So they believe that after the 1,000 years of
paradise, like everybody, theydon't go to heaven or hell.
Speaker 1 (12:40):
There's no heaven or hell in Jehovah's Witnesses.
Speaker 3 (12:42):
It's not purgatory or nothing.
Hmm, like not purgatory, it'snothing.
There's no heaven or hell inJehovah's Witnesses.
Speaker 1 (12:46):
Nothing, Nothing right the Mormons.
Speaker 3 (12:54):
It is, it is.
Speaker 1 (13:01):
It is a faith of no hope.
It is a faith of works, andwe'll talk a little bit more
about that when I give you yourhandouts.
We'll go through some of thethe differences in the faiths,
but that's what it really is now.
In the Mormon religion, whichis really kind of interesting,
they have three levels of heaven, okay, and Jesus has the second
(13:33):
level.
The top level of heavenrequires approval from God and
Joseph Smith to enter it, but atthe second level you only need
the approval of Jesus.
It's kind of an interestingphilosophy, um.
Speaker 3 (13:55):
I'm sorry.
Speaker 1 (13:58):
So there are three levels and we'll look at a chart
of that so that you canunderstand it in just a second.
Okay, and we'll look at a chartof that so that you can
understand it in just a second,okay.
So we talked about thecrucifixion.
We talked about must believe.
We believe that if you don'tbelieve in Jesus Christ, you
will not go to heaven, will you?
Right, and that is where theystand.
But on Jehovah's Witnesses,it's not that you have to
(14:20):
believe, you must also do this.
How many of you have ever hadJehovah's Witnesses come to your
door?
Right?
So they will go home and theywill fill out a timesheet that
has your address on it and say Ivisited with these people today
.
And they turn in timesheetsevery week.
Their work is recorded for themand if they're not doing enough
(14:44):
work, they get chided for it.
They get punished for it.
By who?
By the elders of theircongregation.
Speaker 3 (14:55):
How would they be punished?
Speaker 1 (14:58):
I don't know, my sister never.
My sister always did her work.
Speaker 3 (15:02):
But it's like it's illegal.
Speaker 2 (15:06):
It's America.
You can't, it's not like.
Speaker 1 (15:12):
No, no, no.
This is the work is.
They have to go out and theyhave to make disciples.
They have to go to your house,they have to visit you, they
have to invite you to take theirlessons and understand what
they're trying to teach you.
They're trying to get you intotheir faith.
That's their work, that's theirgood, according to them, that
is their good works Perfect.
(15:34):
We say he is perfect.
He was perfect on earth, butaccording to Jehovah's he was
not.
There's a really interestingthing about the second coming,
and we'll go over that the onlyson of God.
Let's talk about that one in.
Speaker 2 (16:04):
Mormons.
He is the brother of.
Speaker 1 (16:07):
Lucifer.
I'm sorry, I heard another namefor him.
What is this other name?
Satan?
That's what they believe, thathe is the brother of Lucifer.
And the way they came up, theway God came up with the plan of
(16:31):
salvation for the earth, wasthat Lucifer and Jesus both
presented a plan to him and theytook Jesus' plan, not Lucifer's
plan, and then Lucifer startedto work against him.
It's just that is part of theirphilosophy.
What was Jesus' plan?
It's just that's that is partof their philosophy.
He was born of the heavenlymother and the heavenly father.
He was the brother of Jesus,they just say.
(16:57):
They just tell us that theytook Jesus's plan.
But what do we know about?
What do we know about Satan?
Okay, I'll come back to you.
What did we know about Satan?
Speaker 3 (17:07):
Okay, I'll come back to you.
What do we know about Satan?
Speaker 1 (17:10):
He comes to destroy, comes to destroy.
But what was he to begin with?
He was an angel.
He was created by God as anangel, who then exercised his
free will and tried to becomeGod himself.
Did somebody want to?
What was your question?
Speaker 2 (17:29):
So if they believe that they're like brothers and
they came with a plan forsalvation of the earth, that's
them saying that the earth wasmessed up.
But what's their reasoning forthinking that the earth was
messed up to then present thoseplans.
Speaker 3 (17:40):
Well, maybe it was when the earth was created, and
they do believe in original sin.
Speaker 1 (17:45):
We believe in original sin.
Speaker 2 (17:48):
We believe in original sin right and we
believe what we believe thatAdam and Eve sinned and later I
think a long time later, likethousands of years later Jesus
came and died on the cross forus.
So now we are saved.
Speaker 1 (18:10):
Okay.
So when Adam and Eve sinned inthe garden, god said man needs a
redemption plan.
Right, because sin had enteredthe world.
They also believe, and we lookat it as humanity's downfall.
They look at it as humanity'sdownfall.
They look at it as progressingupward, because if we didn't sin
then we wouldn't need to do allthis other stuff.
(18:32):
And so it's a little differenttake on it.
So I'm going to ask you all totake a handout.
Speaker 2 (18:39):
I have a question Do the witnesses, the JW?
Do they believe in Adam and Eve?
Do Mormon believe?
Speaker 1 (18:54):
in Adam and Eve.
They believe in the Bible.
But we'll talk about thedifferences.
When you get this handout okay.
I also think all the listenersof Grace are differences.
When you get this handout okay,I usually punch holes in them.
Speaker 3 (19:19):
I didn't today, Sorry .
So I'm just curious and I mightbe jumping ahead a little bit.
Speaker 1 (19:28):
but like where does the bible come into play with,
like jehovah witnesses?
Okay, well, that's actually thesecond thing on our list, okay,
so let's talk about the, thechart I gave you.
So, starting with the firstpage, who is the founder of
christianity?
Christ, right, the churchconsolidated after the death of
Jesus Christ in about AD 33.
(19:50):
It started to consolidate andwe have carried forward from
that time forward.
The Mormons believe that JosephSmith, in 1820, received a
revelation from an angel namedMoroni that there were golden
plates buried in the ground nearPalmyra, new York, and those
golden plates contained God'sactual word.
(20:12):
And so Joseph Smith translatedthose golden plates, which
nobody has seen to this day,because they were carried back
to heaven by the angel Moroni bylooking into something like a
hat with some stones in it.
That's how they get theirscripture, and Galatians 8 and 9
(20:38):
warn us that if an angel fromheaven should preach to you a
gospel other than the one wepreach to you, you will be
cursed.
Think about that for a minute.
But that is the basis of theirreligion and that is from that
came the Book of Mormon.
So the Book of Mormon is I'mgoing to combine those two top
(21:02):
things the Book of Mormon istheir guiding scripture.
They have the Doctrine andCovenants which lay out all
their rules.
They have the Pearl of GreatPrice, which is kind of like our
Proverbs and Psalms, and theyhave the King James Version of
the Bible as corrected by theMormon Church.
(21:22):
That's important to rememberbecause if you pick up a Bible
and you go to a verse and youlook at it in the Mormon Bible
it might not read the samebecause it may have been
adjusted to fit their theology.
And we see the same thing withthe Jehovah's witnesses.
We had Charles Russell, whothen was followed by Joseph
(21:45):
Rutherford, and they claim to bethe only truly divine
interpreters of the Word of God.
And they also use the KingJames Version, but they use
what's called the New WorldTranslation, which has been
corrected by people who areJehovah's Witnesses.
And then they have a bookcalled Reasoning from the
(22:05):
Scriptures and you may have seenand if they visited with you
they probably left you aWatchtower magazine or an Awake
magazine.
One of the incredible thingsabout Jehovah's Witnesses is
that they are told what tobelieve and they are told how to
believe it.
Every Sunday around the world,every Jehovah's Witness
(22:30):
congregation is getting the samemessage, singing the same songs
, and it's all done withoutprofessional preachers.
They don't have educatedpastors, they don't have people
that have gone to seminary andstudied God's word under other
people.
They do it with lay people.
So my brother-in-law wouldsometimes get up and be the
(22:52):
teacher, but he had in front ofhim what he was told to teach
and how to teach it.
Now they also believe that womencan't teach men, but everybody
in the congregation has to takethe opportunity to teach.
So when it is a woman's turn toteach, can I borrow you for a
(23:13):
second?
Come, stand right here.
We would be having aconversation about this
scripture like this and you allget to listen to it, but we're
not teaching you, thank you.
Scripture like this and you allget to listen to it, but we're
not teaching you, thank you.
So women, that's, how women getinto teaching in the Jehovah
Witness Church is not byteaching the congregation, but
(23:34):
by having a conversation witheach other.
The conversation, conversationis scripted.
So then it's not a conversation,it's just, it's a recitation.
Yeah, it's reciting what theyhave been told to recite.
Speaker 2 (23:50):
And who decided that that's what they're gonna do.
Speaker 1 (23:54):
The Watchtower Society.
Now, the reason my sister andbrother-in-law got into this is
because they didn't likeorganized religion.
They didn't like the idea thatthere was a preacher up there
that was telling you what to do,what to believe and all of
these kinds of things.
But I want you to flip toeither the last or the next to
(24:16):
last page.
And this is how organized theWatchtower Society is.
Does that look like a churchwith no structure to you?
Right?
And what they believe comesdown from the governing body and
(24:37):
that's who produces themagazines and the reasoning from
scriptures.
My sister would read thescriptures, but she would always
read it with a book that toldher what it said.
They're never allowed to havethe Holy Spirit interpret for
them In the Mormons.
The one thing about the Book ofMormon the Book of Mormon they
(25:02):
believe Jesus was resurrected asa spirit body and he was sent
to the Americas to spread theword of God, and so the whole
Book of Mormon takes place inLatin and Central America.
The one thing I want you toknow is that if you go to Bible
archaeology, there's a ton ofstuff about the stories in the
(25:22):
Bible and the archaeology.
To support those.
There's not a single evidence,archaeological evidence, of
anything in the Book of Mormonand that should tell you about
the veracity of that word.
We believe the scripture isinspired and inerrant.
They believe that it has beencorrupted by man and they needed
(25:44):
to correct it.
They believe that they're, andso we're going to talk a little
bit about the church.
We believe in the church thatJesus Christ is the head of the
church and that we answer to himthat, and we are organized
differently depending on whatcongregation we belong to.
But Protestants and Catholicsbelieve that Jesus Christ is the
head of the church In theletter.
(26:05):
In the church of the Mormonchurch, which is the church of
the Latter-day Saints, it iscontrolled by the first
presidency, that is, the currentprophet, and the prophet can
change the law.
When I worked for the Mormonchurch, I had to have three
interviews.
To go to work for the Mormonchurch, I had to have what was
(26:25):
called a state.
There were three levels that Ihad to get approvals from and I
had to sign an agreement that Iwould not drink Coke, coffee,
tea and I would not try toconvert somebody to being
Protestant.
Speaker 2 (26:39):
Okay, so you weren't allowed to drink Coca-Cola.
Speaker 1 (26:43):
Coca-Cola coffee or tea on the campus because they
have health laws againstcaffeine?
Oh, all right.
At that time also this was in1976, 77, there were no African
Americans or blacks in thepriesthood of the Mormon church
(27:06):
because their philosophy hadbeen that they were from Cain,
that the blacks had descendedfrom Cain and they were inferior
to white leadership.
The prophet, while I was there,had two revelations.
One was that they bought thecontrolling interest of the
Coca-Cola company.
The Mormon church did.
You still couldn't drink it it.
(27:30):
But they bought controllinginterest of the Coca-Cola
company because it was amoneymaker, just because they
could.
And they started to allowblacks into the priesthood.
And if think about what washappening in the United States
in the 1970s, what were we goingthrough?
Draw on your history, come on,you've all had this history.
(27:55):
Not the Great Depression, no,that's much further back.
Let's talk about civil unrest,right, civil rights movement and
civil unrest, and what washappening at that time movement
and civil unrest.
And what was what was happeningat that time?
Right, there was a.
There was a.
There was a whole thing aboutpositive affirmation and raising
up people who had felt they,they had had equal opportunity,
(28:17):
right, and so they went rightalong with that.
And so you start to see thattheir, their philosophies and
their scriptures and theirtheology can be changed by the
times, by the influences ofmoney and culture.
Speaker 3 (28:37):
So for Mormonism it's the prophet right.
Speaker 2 (28:40):
So, whoever they are, they have absolute say.
Speaker 1 (28:42):
Absolute say.
They do have the group of 12that sits beneath them and they
seek their counsel, but theirword is it.
Their word is law.
Speaker 3 (28:55):
So they can say, oh, you're not allowed to eat there.
Speaker 1 (29:04):
Well, I'll tell you a quick story.
And it was, and they took acamera and some other stuff and
ice cream and things like that,and we lived in a duplex and
there was an alley behind us.
So the next morning we walkedout and the camera was in the
garden because they had to goover the back fence.
We apparently interrupted themand so they went over the back
(29:27):
fence and they dropped thecamera as they went.
But my neighbor had seen themand they knew who they were and
they were more afraid of thechurch than they were of the
police.
So the guys, you know, that'sthe, that's the control that the
church has.
And so let's go to thegoverning principles.
We believe in what the Bible,the inerrant word of God, that
(29:50):
is what guides us.
We do have doctrinal faithstatements that are a little
different and we have the creeds, which brought together all the
disparate conversations thatwere going on, and we have the
Nicene Creed, and it is you hearit all the time.
We believe that God, the Father, reaffirms the Trinity, the
virgin birth, the death, theresurrection, the crucifixion,
the resurrection, all of thoseIn the Mormon, the top one is
(30:16):
the law of tithing.
You must give 10% to the church.
You must give your tax returnto prove that you've given 10%
to the church.
It is verified.
They believe in the welfareprogram and I will tell you
their welfare program is one ofthe best in the world and that
(30:37):
church raises mothers like noother church does, because they
train them to be mothers fromthe time they're little girls.
Because they believe the Mormonchurch is going to grow by
procreation, by having bigfamilies.
My babysitter had 10 kids.
My baby's got three othersunder the age of two.
There's a special place for hersomewhere or something, but I'm
telling you they do.
(30:57):
But their welfare program isthey fasted for two meals on the
first Sunday of every month andall that money went into their
welfare program to supportpeople who didn't have what
others had.
Speaker 3 (31:09):
So by giving 10%.
You're talking about money,Money 10% of income.
I know this isn't exactly whatyou're talking about, but
whenever you served in theMormon church, you weren't
Mormon right, I did not serve inthe Mormon church, I worked for
the Mormon University.
Speaker 1 (31:25):
Oh, okay, okay, so you were still.
I was, yes, I was a Baptist,okay.
Speaker 2 (31:30):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (31:30):
Oh, okay, so you were still.
I was.
Yes, okay, I was a Baptist.
Okay, yes.
Speaker 2 (31:33):
I was a Baptist working for the Mormons.
Speaker 3 (31:34):
Yes, what were you doing?
You were a Baptist.
Speaker 1 (31:37):
They knew I was Baptist.
Did you hear that?
Yeah, I just was not allowed totalk about my faith to any of
the students, right?
Speaker 2 (31:48):
What were you doing for the university?
Speaker 1 (31:50):
I was a secretary in one of the departments at the
University.
I supported 11 professors.
I typed up all the tests andall those kinds of things and
stuff like that.
Yeah, okay, all right, so let'sgo on to.
They also have the word ofwisdom, which is their health
code, and we talked about thatbeing you're not allowed to use
(32:11):
alcohol, drugs, tobacco, any hotbeverages or anything
containing caffeine, and it isan absolute requirement for
temple entrance.
And temple entrance is whatthey aspire to.
They want to be temple pure.
They want to get married in thetemple, not just in the church,
and for them, that gives them apicture of eternity.
(32:35):
I don't know if any of you'veever been through a Mormon
temple when the temple was builthere.
They generally have it open fora period of time for people to
see and when they come throughit, they have it all.
You can go through and you cansee the entire temple, and I did
this one in the Washington DCand I did it when they redid the
one in Hawaii at the time whenI was there and you walk into it
(32:55):
and there's a picture of Jesussitting up on the wall with the
goats and the sheep.
Remember, he's going toseparate the goats and the sheep
at the time of judgment.
And then you walk through itand everything is white.
The carpet is white, the wallsare white, it's just bright.
It's like you can imagineheaven being.
(33:17):
And they show you the basin thatthey do the baptisms in and
it's like the basin that'sdescribed in the Old Testament,
where all of the oxen are thereand the basin is on the backs of
the oxen and you go on in andin where they get married.
It's an amazing place becausethere's a pedestal and all of
this is covered with white rug.
It's all white carpeted, butthere's a pedestal and the bride
(33:41):
kneels on one side of it andthe groom kneels on the other
side of it, and behind them aremirrors.
Now think about that for aminute.
If you're looking into a mirrorthat's behind you and in front
of you, what do you see?
You see eternity, and thatgives them the sense of the
infinite and the eternity,because they believe they're
(34:02):
married for eternity.
Speaker 2 (34:05):
So does that mean the divorce does?
Speaker 3 (34:07):
not exist in the Mormon church.
Speaker 1 (34:08):
It exists in the Mormon church, but it's not
accepted in the Mormon church.
Speaker 3 (34:12):
So they'll kick you out of their congregation if you
get divorced.
Speaker 1 (34:18):
That's okay.
That's the questions.
Go ahead oh okay.
Speaker 3 (34:22):
So I was going to ask do they have different
requirements for baptisms?
Speaker 1 (34:30):
You're baptized as a believer.
Right, Every person has to bebaptized as a believer.
It's full immersion baptism.
But they also baptize for thedead, Because think about this
in 1820 is when we first had thefirst revelation in the Mormon
church.
Well, how many people had diedbefore 1820?
(34:51):
A lot that had never heard thetruth.
In their opinion rightAccording to their church they'd
never heard the truth, becausethe truth didn't really exist
until 1820, when Joseph Smithcame and got the revelation.
So they do genealogy and theirgenealogy records are some of
the best in the world and you goback and they trace back and
(35:12):
they get baptized on behalf ofthose people who never had the
opportunity to hear the truth,so that those people can then go
into heaven.
Speaker 3 (35:20):
So even if, like you, don't.
Speaker 1 (35:22):
Hold on just a second please.
I have a question here.
Speaker 3 (35:24):
Sorry, so like, even if, like those people like never
knew Right, they were Right.
They were Right Like they justproclaimed that they're.
Speaker 1 (35:32):
They just Right, they get baptized for them, okay,
they baptize everybody.
So I have this question up here.
Speaker 2 (35:37):
Don't the Mormons have like multiple wives.
Speaker 1 (35:41):
There is a branch.
There was a time in the Mormonchurch where polygamy was
accepted.
Polygamy is no longer acceptedin the Mormon church.
It is accepted in some factionsof the Mormon church that have
broken off from the mainstreamMormon church.
There is still polygamy and youmay have seen the reality show,
sister Wives.
There is a branch of polygamyin Utah, but it is the revised
(36:08):
church of the Latter-day Saints.
Okay, go ahead.
Speaker 2 (36:14):
So what would happen if you just went in preaching
the truth about Jesus Christ andall that stuff in one of their
churches you just went inpreaching.
Speaker 1 (36:28):
Well, if you went into their church and tried to
witness to them, they wouldcertainly be very polite.
They're an extremely politereligion and they would just say
thank you and show you the door.
What's the least polite?
I don't know, probably one ofthose funky Indian things.
(36:52):
Let me get some other people,okay.
Speaker 2 (36:57):
Two questions.
One what's polygamy?
Speaker 1 (36:59):
Polygamy is where you can have multiple wives.
Speaker 2 (37:02):
So you're having so in their eyes, right in their
bullies.
He says you're getting baptizedfor in their eyes.
In their belief, it says you'regetting baptized for all the
people before that, all thepeople.
Speaker 1 (37:15):
Not all the people.
You're being baptized forpeople by name.
So like you can't say I want tobe baptized for my whole family
, no, they do.
The genealogy records they nameyou as you're being baptized.
Speaker 2 (37:28):
If that person's dead right that person's dead
already right, which theyprobably are right.
Speaker 1 (37:32):
Yes, this is baptism for the dead.
Speaker 2 (37:34):
If they're already dead and in their eyes you can't
go to heaven until you'rebaptized, then in their eyes are
they just like chilling intheir body.
Speaker 1 (37:46):
Hold on to that thought.
Okay, hold on to that question.
Sorry, I have something tobuild on the ancestral lines.
I have a just like chillin inthe body.
Hold on to that thought.
Okay, hold on to that question.
Speaker 3 (37:50):
Sorry, I have um something to build on the
ancestral lines.
I have a question um like doyou mean that is mormon?
Like a more like a family, orlike inherited religion, or like
who decides who gets like okay,which people get baptized?
Speaker 1 (38:06):
um, they have to prove certain things in the
genealogy records in order to bebaptized for that person, but
you have to meet certainconditions of the religion in
order to do that.
So, just like many of us, Igrew up in a Christian household
, but it wasn't until I made mydecision for Christ that I
became a Christian right.
(38:26):
So their children are raised ina Mormon household, but it's
not until they make theirdecision to be baptized into the
Mormon church that they're amember of the Mormon church.
Okay, I'm going to hold yourquestion because we need to move
along.
All right, so I'll come back toyou in a second.
So let's go on.
Jehovah's Witnesses are baptizedby total immersion.
One of the things that'sinteresting about the Jehovah's
(38:48):
Witnesses are baptized by totalimmersion.
One of the things that'sinteresting about the Jehovah's
Witnesses we spend a lot of timeon Mormons is that they believe
the 144,000 that is mentionedin Revelation is the actual
number of people that will be inheaven.
No more can be added to that,and that number has already been
sealed.
So when they are offeredcommunion in their worship
(39:09):
services, they do not take it.
It's passed to them and theyjust, like you know, we do the
little cups now, but when weused to pass the place, they
just pass it, nobody takes it.
They fill it up and they passit and nobody takes it because
they're not one of the 144,000.
It's an empty sacrament, right.
Speaker 3 (39:30):
What happens if someone takes it?
They?
Speaker 1 (39:34):
wouldn't.
They wouldn't, no, they'd beshunned if they did.
Speaker 3 (39:39):
So it's just like a tradition?
Speaker 1 (39:41):
Yes, it's a requirement of the church that
you don't do that.
Who do they think is the one?
Who?
Just?
So let's go back to one.
Yes, it's a requirement of thechurch that you don't do that.
So let's go back to one of thefundamental beliefs we believe
in who God, the Father, god theSon and the Holy Spirit right,
we believe in the Trinity.
In the Mormon church, god, whois Elohim, is called the
Heavenly Father.
He's not always been God.
Jesus, who is called Jehovah,is the oldest son and his
(40:06):
brother is Lucifer.
We've talked about that In theJehovah Witnesses.
Jehovah is the only God.
Jesus Christ is a specialperson because he was created by
God before all things and he'sidentified as Michael, as the
archangel, in the Bible.
The Holy Spirit is not a person, he's a force and it is his
active force that is used toaccomplish Jehovah's purposes.
(40:28):
And Satan is the author of thelie, of the doctrine of the
Trinity, because the wordTrinity is not in the Bible.
That's a lot right To take in,but we know what we know.
We have God, the Father, godthe Son and the Holy Spirit.
And what does the Holy Spiritdo for you?
(40:49):
Protect you, convict you of thetruth, right?
How many of you have ever goneto do something and you get this
little voice going nope, youdon't want to do that, right?
Oh no, I didn't want you toraise your hand.
So we believe that God has been, is and always will be.
(41:15):
We have an eternal God in threepersons.
Right, elihim, who is the FatherGod, the Heavenly Father of the
Mormons, is one of innumerableself-progressing deities.
Now, there is no indication atall in their literature of when
this first started, but it isself-progressing and he's
(41:37):
married to a multitude of wives.
The Jehovah's Witnesses saythere is one God.
His name is Jehovah.
He is all-powerful andall-knowing, but he's not
all-present and he's not triune.
So what I wanted you to do realquick is flip to either the
last or the next, to the lastpage that looks like this and
(42:02):
this is were there not enoughhandouts for everybody?
Did you not get one?
Okay, I'm sorry, this is how itworks in the Mormon church,
according to heaven.
Okay, all right.
So they have an eternal plan ofsalvation, or what's called
eternal progression.
(42:22):
It starts with prem-mortal life.
There are spirit children ofthe heavenly father.
They come to earth.
That's the first test for them.
They are born into a family,into a Mormon family, and that
is their test to see if they canpass that.
And then they go to spiritparadise or spirit prison and
(42:43):
they're waiting for theresurrection and judgment of the
savior and different apostles.
They view the tapes.
I don't know if any of you everum, there was a great movie
about that, about watching thetapes of your life to determine
where you were going to go.
It was, it was a comedy, it wasreally good.
Um, I think Meryl Streep was init, actually.
(43:03):
But it just reminds you of thiskind of thing where they well
explain to us what you werethinking when you went into the
house to rescue the cat, youknow, and she goes.
Well, it's a living being and Ineeded to.
You know all this kind of stuff,but that's that's the sort of
sense you get that this is whatthey're going to do, question
you on your decisions, aboutwhat you did and what you think.
But you can go to one threelevels, one of three levels the
(43:27):
telestial kingdom isadministered by the Holy Spirit,
the terrestrial kingdom isunder Jesus and the celestial
kingdom is unlimited access toGod, christ and the Holy Spirit
with all of your families andyou get to progress from that
one.
The other two, you just staythere, you don't progress.
(43:47):
And are those other two?
Speaker 3 (43:51):
like that.
Hmm, are those other two likethat?
Speaker 1 (43:59):
I can't tell you.
I can't tell you.
But they believe in threelevels of heaven.
What do you mean by progress?
Progress, then you would becomea god.
It's a self-progressing deity.
You get your own planet.
If you're a deity, right,exactly, if you're coming out of
(44:21):
the celestial kingdom, you andyour wife or wives go and
populate another planet and it'sjust the self-progressing kind
of thing.
It's a little hard to get yourhead around and this is why,
when they are talking to youabout the Mormon religion, you
never hear about these kinds ofthings.
(44:41):
I took the Mormon lessonsbecause I wanted to know what
the students believed.
And I would come back and Iwould sit down with Dr Hammond
and I'd say, well, show it to mein the Bible.
And he couldn't.
We'd spend hours and he'd tryto find something that sounded
kind of like it, but he couldn't.
Speaker 3 (44:58):
So they just so some person just figured all this
stuff out and then told it inone person.
Speaker 1 (45:05):
Joseph Smith was the first prophet of the Mormon
church.
Speaker 3 (45:09):
But there's no scripture.
Speaker 1 (45:11):
The Book of Mormon is what he translated.
That is their scripture.
Speaker 2 (45:14):
So I'm saying this specific part, is it in
scripture?
Speaker 1 (45:16):
It is not in scripture.
It has all come through therevelations of the prophets.
Speaker 2 (45:21):
Okay, so what's their purpose for atonement, then if
eventually, is it just so theycan eventually be judged to good
or evil?
Speaker 1 (45:31):
So they can go, so they would pass the judgment to
get into the celestial kingdom.
And so you also have toremember that if you are not
temple worthy on earth, you willnot be in the celestial kingdom
.
So they all strive to be templeworthy.
Speaker 3 (45:46):
I'm sorry I didn't catch this, but who makes that
judgment for?
Speaker 1 (45:50):
them, joseph Smith and God.
And Joseph Smith is like thefounder, he was the founder of
the Mormon church.
That's quite an elevation for ahuman being to be put up there
with God, right?
So do they believe Joseph Smithis like the above Jesus?
They do.
They do believe he's the finalauthority.
(46:11):
So when founding this, I guess,religion Joseph Smith?
It was said he found stonetablets or gold plates Gold
plates and he couldn't show themto anyone, correct?
Speaker 2 (46:27):
only he could see them.
Speaker 1 (46:29):
Only he could see them.
There is something in thehistory about there may have
been another man and woman whoactually saw the plates, but
they were his scribes andliterally he would go into a
room and look at them throughthis device and translate and
they would write down what hesaw.
But no one could confirm theexistence of these stones?
No, because when he wasfinished translating them,
(46:50):
moroni took them back to heaven,but as they did.
Yeah, it's an interesting thing, and if you go and read a
biography of Joseph Smith,there's some really interesting
things about him and hischaracter.
Speaker 2 (47:06):
So if you reach the top, then, do you start?
Speaker 1 (47:09):
over again.
You get to produce those spiritbodies.
Okay, yep, on your planet, onyour planet.
Okay, got it Alright, okay, soyou go, you basically become
another god, no wait.
Speaker 2 (47:23):
Then how come there's no existence of life, this
planets?
Speaker 1 (47:26):
if this is even true, what a great question.
Say it loud enough foreverybody to hear, because
you've got to get it on thistape thing that I'm recording,
that we're recording.
Speaker 3 (47:39):
If this is true, how come there's no existence of
life on other planets?
Speaker 1 (47:43):
How come we don't see life on other planets?
If this is true, how comethere's no existence of life on
other planets?
How come we don't see life onother planets?
If this is true, it may be adifferent solar system.
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (47:51):
The planets are invisible.
Speaker 1 (47:54):
Okay, so let's go to atonement, because we've talked
a little bit about this.
How do we get atonement?
How are we atoned for?
The substitutionary death ofChrist on the cross gave us
atonement before God right.
So by believing in JesusChrist's work on the cross, we
(48:15):
are atoned for and we have theright to stand in front of God
fully righteous.
Under the Mormons, theprovision was supplied by God
for people to earn theirsalvation by obedience to the
laws and the ordinance of thechurch and in the Jehovah's
Witnesses, the bodilyresurrection is denied.
(48:35):
The only atonement for sin isobeying the laws of the church
and doing the work as theydefine it.
So what do they get out of this?
Hmm, so what do they get?
Speaker 3 (48:46):
out of this?
What do they get out of this?
Speaker 1 (48:50):
They get a thousand years on earth.
Right now I have a nephew and aniece who have come out of
Jehovah's Witnesses and we'vebeen witnessing to them and
walking them through what thetruth is.
And my sister was down for avisit and she has this
conversation with her son allthe time.
He's like Mom, why can't youaccept what we have right now?
(49:12):
And she said because I wantwhat's coming, I want to be with
you in what's coming, and soshe can't enjoy him here and now
.
All she can think of is thathe's walking away from being
with her for the thousand yearson earth.
But think of is that he'swalking away from being with her
for the thousand years on earth.
But really she's the onewalking away.
Right, she's the one that'swalked away.
Yeah, so angels we've um, Idon't know if we talked about
(49:34):
that.
They're created beings.
We had some that weredisobedient to god.
They became satan and hisminions.
Um, we believe the church ofjesus christ of latter-day
Saints believes in angels, butthey believe they're wingless,
they have no wings, and that theangel of God has never had any
wings.
They have the same form ashuman beings, and no angels
(49:57):
minister to the earth exceptthose who belong to it.
That's their statement of faith, but no definition.
And Jehovah's Witnesses don'tbelieve in angels, they don't
believe they can communicateanything.
We believe in the actual personof Satan, don't we?
(50:18):
And that he has dominion.
He has minions that are calleddemons.
We believe in that.
We've seen Jesus cast thosedemons out in different stories
and stuff.
Satan is also an adversary inthe Mormon church.
He was the spirit son of God,who was once an angel, but in
the person um Lucifer rebelledagainst God and then he has
(50:41):
sought to destroy the childrenof God on earth and make their
life miserable.
And we have to agree that whenhe gets to work sometimes we are
pretty miserable, right?
The Jehovah's Witness believethat Satan is God's chief
adversary and the invisibleruler of the world.
So we see Satan's universalityover all three religions.
We see that that common threadis there and, I'm sorry, I don't
(51:05):
know how long this session is.
Speaker 3 (51:07):
I think it's like three.
I think we leave it to three.
Speaker 1 (51:11):
Yeah, is there a second session?
I don't know if there's.
I texted Garrett, let me see ifhe gets it, I'll go ask.
You're good, okay, thank you,because I want to keep going.
You're good, okay, thank you,because I want to keep going.
We want to talk about eternalsecurity because this is
important, because once you'resaved, you're always saved.
(51:34):
Once you have been maderighteous with God because of
your belief in Jesus Christ,you're still saved.
Right, if you walk away fromthe religion, and thank God that
happens because it doesn't sayin the Bible.
If you walk away from thereligion and thank God, that
happens because it doesn't sayin the Bible if you walk away,
it says when you walk away, youwill be, you can be redeemed
again.
So it's eternal salvation andwe believe in the eternal
(51:56):
security of that.
We never fall away from thestate of grace.
Part of the work of salvationin the Mormon church has been
the atonement of Jesus Christ.
But in order to do that, inorder to get the full atonement
of Jesus Christ, you have to dothe work of the church.
And what is the work of theMormon church?
The same thing as the work ofthe Jehovah Witnesses church to
(52:17):
go out and make more disciples.
Speaker 3 (52:22):
So for Christianity, like, once you're or I, go to a
baptist church, so, once you'resaved and um, like you're fully
immersed baptism.
And then, um, like you trulybelieve, and then you walk away
from, like jesus in the church,maybe, like, you start doubting
your religion and um, like, isit possible then?
(52:45):
Like, so you'd always be saved,like you'd still go to heaven.
Speaker 1 (52:48):
You will not lose your salvation.
Yes, one hour.
So we're just coming up on that.
Okay, so there's a lot moreinformation I want to get you to
the page.
There's some interesting thingson the thing called unique
beliefs.
Jehovah's Witnesses do notobserve birthdays or Christmas,
easter or Thanksgiving, they areforbidden to vote or run for
(53:09):
public office, they do notsalute the flag, they do not
serve in the military and theydo not accept blood transfusions
.
Speaker 3 (53:18):
I have a question what if they get drafted?
Speaker 1 (53:21):
They will be a conscientious objector.
What does that mean?
They file for conscientiousobjection.
They do not serve in themilitary.
Speaker 3 (53:30):
Oh, so they just like get excused.
Speaker 1 (53:33):
Well, sort of yes, okay, we did talk about them.
There's a page on here, though,that I really want you to look
at, and it's called A QuickSummary of False Beliefs.
Let's go over them real quick.
Mormons believe that Jesus wasthe spirit child of the Heavenly
Father and Heavenly Mother.
That he became the Redeemerbecause he had a better strategy
than Lucifer.
(53:54):
That his greatest atoning workwas in Gethsemane, not on the
cross.
Mormons believe that, as man is, god once was, as God is man
may be.
Think about that.
Right.
God was a man who became a God,and now that he's become a God,
(54:16):
he set the example for you tobecome a God as man was.
As man is God once was.
As God is now, man may be.
Speaker 3 (54:27):
Why would you?
Speaker 1 (54:35):
Apparently, yeah, yes .
Well, the men will the men,will Women go with them?
Speaker 3 (54:45):
Okay, so that means, if you're just so in their eyes,
in their eyes.
Speaker 2 (54:53):
If your husband's successful in life, you go.
Speaker 1 (54:59):
With him.
Speaker 2 (55:00):
With him to repopulate the planet.
Speaker 1 (55:03):
Yes, you got it.
Everyone is a self-progressingdeity who will populate their
own worlds.
Speaker 3 (55:09):
So, because they believe that Earth is God's
planet, when they go and havetheir own planet, do the Mormons
of that planet only respond tothem, or do they also respond to
the God of Earth?
Speaker 1 (55:24):
I believe that they have to take their own religion
with them.
Okay, yeah, I didn't.
Speaker 2 (55:29):
Right.
Speaker 1 (55:31):
All right, I want to just wrap this up.
I just I want you to see howdifferent their beliefs are than
ours, right?
And how many rules they haveand how many.
And how this did not come outof the mouth of Jesus Christ,
right?
Our belief system came, and howthis did not come out of the
mouth of Jesus Christ, right.
Our belief system came out ofthe mouth of Jesus Christ, and
that's who we follow, because heis the son of God.
(55:53):
What happens if you're a womanand you're not married, but
you're a woman?
You don't ever make it tocelestial Because you've never
born children, right?
Speaker 2 (56:09):
Wait.
So if you get married and thenyou don't have children, it to
celestial because you've neverborn children.
Speaker 1 (56:12):
Right, so to populate .
Yeah, I saw that face.
Yep, the main purpose of awoman in the Mormon religion is
to have children yes, as many asyou can have.
And I worked with a lady whowas having her first child and
she was this tiny, tiny littlething.
She felt like you, amy Tiny,tiny little thing, and when she
(56:33):
had her first baby, she had amiserable time and she had such
bad depression because she neverwanted to go through it again.
And she was a Mormon wife andshe knew she was going to be
expected to have baby after baby, after baby.
I want you to understand thatthese are people that God has
commanded us to love and toshare the truth with, and so, as
(56:57):
you develop relationships withthem, as you try to make
friendships with them, ask themquestions to understand what
they believe and tell them whatyou believe and why you believe
it.
And because you believe in theinerrancy of the Bible, because
Jesus Christ is the one that yousaid it.
And so we just ask you, we wantyou to have this information
it's a lot of information, butit's good information so that
(57:20):
when you're somebody says to youI believe in Jesus Christ.
You don't automatically assumethat it's the same Jesus that
you believe in, because you cansee the differences.
Right, that's okay.
Yes, they encourage it.
They do encourage adoptionbecause it's growing the faith.
Yeah, that's a really hardthing.
(57:45):
If you have fertility issues inthe Mormonren, that's a really
hard thing.
If you have fertility issues inthe Mormon church, that's a
really hard thing.
Speaker 3 (57:49):
Do they just think you're cursed or something?
Speaker 1 (57:51):
I'm not quite sure how they deal with that, but it
is not.
They do adopt a lot, thenprobably.
Yeah, let's pray.
It's 2 o'clock.
So let's start with.
When somebody says to youbecause you meet people all the
time in high school, I guaranteeyou in middle school, high
school, that look like you, talklike you talk about going to
worship, talk about praying,that you might even pray in your
presence in the name of JesusChrist.
Right, they look and sound likeus, but how do you know that
that's the same person when theystart inviting you to your
(00:22):
church, well, you need to cometo our church.
How do you know that that's thechurch you want to go to?
And the fundamental question weneed to always ask is who is
your Jesus?
Speaker 2 (00:42):
So now you have to do some work and tell me what you
know about Jesus.
Bless you, go for it.
Thank you.
Jesus is our Lord savior, okay,down to save us.
It's in the christianity beliefokay, also my belief that, um,
uh, that he died on the cross tosave us from our sins and you
cannot go to heaven without himand he was from Nazareth Right
(01:12):
and I can't spell all the whitewords.
Speaker 3 (01:16):
Something else he is perfect and has never sinned and
lived a perfect life.
Speaker 1 (01:26):
We'll talk a little bit more about that one.
Speaker 3 (01:29):
He loves us everlasting.
That's not the word.
Speaker 1 (01:33):
Eternally.
Yes, eternally orunconditionally.
Eternalality, that's the word.
He was raised from the dead.
He was raised from the dead, hewas raised from the dead.
Speaker 3 (01:49):
And he's the son of God.
Speaker 1 (01:53):
What else?
What was the last one?
Speaker 2 (01:56):
He's the son of God.
Speaker 1 (01:57):
Son of God.
Which son of God, the only, theonly son of God right.
Speaker 2 (02:03):
Yes, sort of.
So he sits right next to God,but I do believe that God also
calls us.
Speaker 1 (02:15):
He adopted us into the family.
We are adopted sons anddaughters into the family, but
we are.
He is the only begotten son ofGod.
Right Go to John 3.16.
He's the only begotten son ofGod.
Right Go to John 3, 16.
He's the only begotten son ofGod.
So, yes, so in this case he'sthat.
But you're right, we areadopted as sons and daughters
into Christ's family when webelieve in Jesus Christ.
Anything else in there.
(02:37):
Who was his mother Mary?
Right, and she was a virgin.
So she was born of a virgin andwe're not going to get into all
of the other stuff around that.
But he was in what?
Speaker 2 (02:58):
He's fully son, I mean, he's fully God and fully
human.
Speaker 1 (03:01):
Thank you.
He's fully God and fully human.
Okay, that's quite a list toget started with, isn't it?
So let's start looking at whatthe others believe, because they
(03:25):
don't believe all this.
They believe differently.
So we're going to start withthe Jehovah's Witness and I'm
going to pick.
Well, let's start with theeternality.
We're going to go to this one.
Okay, according to the JehovahWitnesses, he did not always
exist.
He was not always eternal.
(03:45):
He was created as an angel, andI have a ton of notes for you
guys, so I'm not going to givethem to you until we're finished
with the whiteboard, okay?
So once I give you the notes,you'll get a lot of this.
He was known as Michael.
Do you all know Michael, thearchangel, right Until he came
(04:14):
to do his work on earth?
That's what they believe aboutthat.
But what do the Mormons believe?
The Mormons believe he was bornSpell it right as a child, a
(04:46):
spirit, child of the, who iseternal and heavenly mother, and
I'm just going to read me hername.
How far from the truth is that?
Does that give you an idea ofhow different their Jesus is
already?
So let's go to fully God andfully human, because, in this
(05:11):
case, the Jehovah's Witnessbelieve and I'm going to combine
that with born of the Virgin.
Okay, so the Jehovah Witnessesbelieve that when it was time
for Jesus to come to the earth,for the prophecies to be
(05:31):
fulfilled, that God, jehovah,who's the name of their God, the
only name of God transferred toMary's womb the spirit of Jesus
Christ that's how they defineit and that he was not divine.
(05:52):
He was perfectly human, andthat is how they explain the
Immaculate Conception that hewas transferred to her womb.
(06:16):
When we get over here, jesusChrist is not divine.
Again, you start to see how farfrom the truth people can get
(06:38):
right.
One of the things let's seeresurrected.
He was recreated and he was notcrucified on a cross.
He was crucified on what theycalled a torture pole.
(06:59):
Here he was crucified.
Let me see if I can get thisright.
He was crucified on a stake.
(07:25):
What do we believe about thework of Jesus Christ on the
cross?
Speaker 2 (07:36):
We believe that he rose from the dead.
Speaker 1 (07:39):
Okay, what work did he do while he was on the cross?
He took our sins.
What work did he do while hewas on the cross?
Speaker 3 (07:46):
Go ahead.
Speaker 2 (07:47):
He took our sins he atoned for every sin we were all
going to commit.
Speaker 1 (08:04):
He raised people from the dead and he also healed
those who were sick and thosewho weren't able to walk Right.
But we believe that JesusChrist on the cross, when the
darkness came over the earth, itwas the separation from God and
he was paying for the sins ofall people.
The Mormons believe that hisatoning work happened in the
garden.
They don't believe it happenedhere, but the atonement was
actually in the garden.
They don't believe it happenedhere, but the atonement was
(08:26):
actually in the garden.
And remember your scripture.
That's when he started to sweatthe.
Remember he sweat the blood,the drops of blood.
That's what the Jehovah'sWitness interpret as the atoning
work.
That was when he did theatonement for us.
(08:46):
We say that he was resurrected,we have resurrected here.
We also say that he wasresurrected bodily because
people could what Touch him,feel him right.
They saw him eat.
So we believe in a bodilyresurrection.
Here he was recreated and hereit is a spirit.
(09:07):
It was not a bodilyresurrection.
What do you mean?
He was recreated, hm Likerenewed, like reborn like, were
healed.
Speaker 2 (09:22):
What's the question?
The question was what is?
Speaker 1 (09:24):
recreated.
Recreated was that that he,they, he was recreated as a
spirit.
They took the dead body.
It's in essence, it is aresurrection, but that it was
recreated, that is the word thatthey use.
They do not use resurrection.
They don't celebrate EasterSunday.
They, they celebrate thecrucifixion.
(09:44):
They don't celebrate EasterSunday.
They celebrate the crucifixion.
They don't celebrate EasterSunday.
So we all believe that he wasburied, we all believe that, we
believe that he is our Redeemer.
Right, and we don't have thatup here.
But, savior, redeemer, did theycelebrate Christmas?
I'm sorry.
Speaker 2 (09:59):
Did they celebrate Christmas?
Speaker 1 (10:01):
No, jehovah's Witnesses do not.
What about Mormons?
They do, they do, they do.
So we believe that he was ourRedeemer.
Jehovah's Witnesses believethat Jehovah, jehovah, who is
(10:21):
the only God, is the only God.
He has the eternal.
That's spelled wrong.
Speaker 2 (10:38):
Okay, jesus will rule for the thousand years of
paradise.
That is actually true, but nottrue.
So Jesus is God.
There is the Son of God.
I've been taught that he is God, so he will.
(11:02):
It does say in Scripture, inthe Bible, somewhere in
Revelation, but it says that thedevil will be sent to like a
burning pit for a thousand years, and those thousand years will
be peaceful.
(11:22):
So that is true, true.
Speaker 1 (11:26):
And then what comes next?
Speaker 2 (11:30):
Then it comes back out.
Speaker 1 (11:31):
I don't really know, okay, so what happens then is
that Satan is defeated, he'sreleased and defeated, okay.
And then the second coming isthe New Jerusalem and people
live in peace in heaven.
What they believe is after thethousand years on earth,
everybody is annihilated.
That's cute what they believe,that at the end of the thousand
(11:55):
years everybody goes away.
Speaker 3 (11:57):
On earth?
Is earth not a thousand yearsold?
Speaker 1 (12:03):
No, this is the thousand year reign of Jesus at
the end of time, the paradise onearth for a thousand years old.
No, this is the thousand yearreign of Jesus at the end of
time, the paradise on earth fora thousand years.
And then, at the end, everybodyjust goes away.
Speaker 2 (12:15):
I know semi kind of what Judaism is.
Judaism, yeah, judaism, it'sbasically the belief, not of the
New Testament, basically thewhole Old Testament and a lot
more ceremony.
Speaker 1 (12:31):
Okay, let me take a question up here.
Okay, I was just wondering.
Speaker 3 (12:34):
So they believe that after the 1,000 years of
paradise, like everybody, theydon't go to heaven or hell.
Speaker 1 (12:40):
There's no heaven or hell in Jehovah's Witnesses.
Speaker 3 (12:42):
It's not purgatory or nothing.
Hmm, like not purgatory, it'snothing.
There's no heaven or hell inJehovah's Witnesses.
Speaker 1 (12:46):
Nothing, Nothing right the Mormons.
Speaker 3 (12:54):
It is, it is.
Speaker 1 (13:01):
It is a faith of no hope.
It is a faith of works, andwe'll talk a little bit more
about that when I give you yourhandouts.
We'll go through some of thethe differences in the faiths,
but that's what it really is now.
In the Mormon religion, whichis really kind of interesting,
they have three levels of heaven, okay, and Jesus has the second
(13:33):
level.
The top level of heavenrequires approval from God and
Joseph Smith to enter it, but atthe second level you only need
the approval of Jesus.
It's kind of an interestingphilosophy, um.
Speaker 3 (13:55):
I'm sorry.
Speaker 1 (13:58):
So there are three levels and we'll look at a chart
of that so that you canunderstand it in just a second.
Okay, and we'll look at a chartof that so that you can
understand it in just a second,okay.
So we talked about thecrucifixion.
We talked about must believe.
We believe that if you don'tbelieve in Jesus Christ, you
will not go to heaven, will you?
Right, and that is where theystand.
But on Jehovah's Witnesses,it's not that you have to
(14:20):
believe, you must also do this.
How many of you have ever hadJehovah's Witnesses come to your
door?
Right?
So they will go home and theywill fill out a timesheet that
has your address on it and say Ivisited with these people today
.
And they turn in timesheetsevery week.
Their work is recorded for themand if they're not doing enough
(14:44):
work, they get chided for it.
They get punished for it.
By who?
By the elders of theircongregation.
Speaker 3 (14:55):
How would they be punished?
Speaker 1 (14:58):
I don't know, my sister never.
My sister always did her work.
Speaker 3 (15:02):
But it's like it's illegal.
Speaker 2 (15:06):
It's America.
You can't, it's not like.
Speaker 1 (15:12):
No, no, no.
This is the work is.
They have to go out and theyhave to make disciples.
They have to go to your house,they have to visit you, they
have to invite you to take theirlessons and understand what
they're trying to teach you.
They're trying to get you intotheir faith.
That's their work, that's theirgood, according to them, that
is their good works Perfect.
(15:34):
We say he is perfect.
He was perfect on earth, butaccording to Jehovah's he was
not.
There's a really interestingthing about the second coming,
and we'll go over that the onlyson of God.
Let's talk about that one in.
Speaker 2 (16:04):
Mormons.
He is the brother of.
Speaker 1 (16:07):
Lucifer.
I'm sorry, I heard another namefor him.
What is this other name?
Satan?
That's what they believe, thathe is the brother of Lucifer.
And the way they came up, theway God came up with the plan of
(16:31):
salvation for the earth, wasthat Lucifer and Jesus both
presented a plan to him and theytook Jesus' plan, not Lucifer's
plan, and then Lucifer startedto work against him.
It's just that is part of theirphilosophy.
What was Jesus' plan?
It's just that's that is partof their philosophy.
He was born of the heavenlymother and the heavenly father.
He was the brother of Jesus,they just say.
(16:57):
They just tell us that theytook Jesus's plan.
But what do we know about?
What do we know about Satan?
Okay, I'll come back to you.
What did we know about Satan?
Speaker 3 (17:07):
Okay, I'll come back to you.
What do we know about Satan?
Speaker 1 (17:10):
He comes to destroy, comes to destroy.
But what was he to begin with?
He was an angel.
He was created by God as anangel, who then exercised his
free will and tried to becomeGod himself.
Did somebody want to?
What was your question?
Speaker 2 (17:29):
So if they believe that they're like brothers and
they came with a plan forsalvation of the earth, that's
them saying that the earth wasmessed up.
But what's their reasoning forthinking that the earth was
messed up to then present thoseplans.
Speaker 3 (17:40):
Well, maybe it was when the earth was created, and
they do believe in original sin.
Speaker 1 (17:45):
We believe in original sin.
Speaker 2 (17:48):
We believe in original sin right and we
believe what we believe thatAdam and Eve sinned and later I
think a long time later, likethousands of years later Jesus
came and died on the cross forus.
So now we are saved.
Speaker 1 (18:10):
Okay.
So when Adam and Eve sinned inthe garden, god said man needs a
redemption plan.
Right, because sin had enteredthe world.
They also believe, and we lookat it as humanity's downfall.
They look at it as humanity'sdownfall.
They look at it as progressingupward, because if we didn't sin
then we wouldn't need to do allthis other stuff.
(18:32):
And so it's a little differenttake on it.
So I'm going to ask you all totake a handout.
Speaker 2 (18:39):
I have a question Do the witnesses, the JW?
Do they believe in Adam and Eve?
Do Mormon believe?
Speaker 1 (18:54):
in Adam and Eve.
They believe in the Bible.
But we'll talk about thedifferences.
When you get this handout okay.
I also think all the listenersof Grace are differences.
When you get this handout okay,I usually punch holes in them.
Speaker 3 (19:19):
I didn't today, Sorry .
So I'm just curious and I mightbe jumping ahead a little bit.
Speaker 1 (19:28):
but like where does the bible come into play with,
like jehovah witnesses?
Okay, well, that's actually thesecond thing on our list, okay,
so let's talk about the, thechart I gave you.
So, starting with the firstpage, who is the founder of
christianity?
Christ, right, the churchconsolidated after the death of
Jesus Christ in about AD 33.
(19:50):
It started to consolidate andwe have carried forward from
that time forward.
The Mormons believe that JosephSmith, in 1820, received a
revelation from an angel namedMoroni that there were golden
plates buried in the ground nearPalmyra, new York, and those
golden plates contained God'sactual word.
(20:12):
And so Joseph Smith translatedthose golden plates, which
nobody has seen to this day,because they were carried back
to heaven by the angel Moroni bylooking into something like a
hat with some stones in it.
That's how they get theirscripture, and Galatians 8 and 9
(20:38):
warn us that if an angel fromheaven should preach to you a
gospel other than the one wepreach to you, you will be
cursed.
Think about that for a minute.
But that is the basis of theirreligion and that is from that
came the Book of Mormon.
So the Book of Mormon is I'mgoing to combine those two top
(21:02):
things the Book of Mormon istheir guiding scripture.
They have the Doctrine andCovenants which lay out all
their rules.
They have the Pearl of GreatPrice, which is kind of like our
Proverbs and Psalms, and theyhave the King James Version of
the Bible as corrected by theMormon Church.
(21:22):
That's important to rememberbecause if you pick up a Bible
and you go to a verse and youlook at it in the Mormon Bible
it might not read the samebecause it may have been
adjusted to fit their theology.
And we see the same thing withthe Jehovah's witnesses.
We had Charles Russell, whothen was followed by Joseph
(21:45):
Rutherford, and they claim to bethe only truly divine
interpreters of the Word of God.
And they also use the KingJames Version, but they use
what's called the New WorldTranslation, which has been
corrected by people who areJehovah's Witnesses.
And then they have a bookcalled Reasoning from the
(22:05):
Scriptures and you may have seenand if they visited with you
they probably left you aWatchtower magazine or an Awake
magazine.
One of the incredible thingsabout Jehovah's Witnesses is
that they are told what tobelieve and they are told how to
believe it.
Every Sunday around the world,every Jehovah's Witness
(22:30):
congregation is getting the samemessage, singing the same songs
, and it's all done withoutprofessional preachers.
They don't have educatedpastors, they don't have people
that have gone to seminary andstudied God's word under other
people.
They do it with lay people.
So my brother-in-law wouldsometimes get up and be the
(22:52):
teacher, but he had in front ofhim what he was told to teach
and how to teach it.
Now they also believe that womencan't teach men, but everybody
in the congregation has to takethe opportunity to teach.
So when it is a woman's turn toteach, can I borrow you for a
(23:13):
second?
Come, stand right here.
We would be having aconversation about this
scripture like this and you allget to listen to it, but we're
not teaching you, thank you.
Scripture like this and you allget to listen to it, but we're
not teaching you, thank you.
So women, that's, how women getinto teaching in the Jehovah
Witness Church is not byteaching the congregation, but
(23:34):
by having a conversation witheach other.
The conversation, conversationis scripted.
So then it's not a conversation,it's just, it's a recitation.
Yeah, it's reciting what theyhave been told to recite.
Speaker 2 (23:50):
And who decided that that's what they're gonna do.
Speaker 1 (23:54):
The Watchtower Society.
Now, the reason my sister andbrother-in-law got into this is
because they didn't likeorganized religion.
They didn't like the idea thatthere was a preacher up there
that was telling you what to do,what to believe and all of
these kinds of things.
But I want you to flip toeither the last or the next to
(24:16):
last page.
And this is how organized theWatchtower Society is.
Does that look like a churchwith no structure to you?
Right?
And what they believe comesdown from the governing body and
(24:37):
that's who produces themagazines and the reasoning from
scriptures.
My sister would read thescriptures, but she would always
read it with a book that toldher what it said.
They're never allowed to havethe Holy Spirit interpret for
them In the Mormons.
The one thing about the Book ofMormon the Book of Mormon they
(25:02):
believe Jesus was resurrected asa spirit body and he was sent
to the Americas to spread theword of God, and so the whole
Book of Mormon takes place inLatin and Central America.
The one thing I want you toknow is that if you go to Bible
archaeology, there's a ton ofstuff about the stories in the
(25:22):
Bible and the archaeology.
To support those.
There's not a single evidence,archaeological evidence, of
anything in the Book of Mormonand that should tell you about
the veracity of that word.
We believe the scripture isinspired and inerrant.
They believe that it has beencorrupted by man and they needed
(25:44):
to correct it.
They believe that they're, andso we're going to talk a little
bit about the church.
We believe in the church thatJesus Christ is the head of the
church and that we answer to himthat, and we are organized
differently depending on whatcongregation we belong to.
But Protestants and Catholicsbelieve that Jesus Christ is the
head of the church In theletter.
(26:05):
In the church of the Mormonchurch, which is the church of
the Latter-day Saints, it iscontrolled by the first
presidency, that is, the currentprophet, and the prophet can
change the law.
When I worked for the Mormonchurch, I had to have three
interviews.
To go to work for the Mormonchurch, I had to have what was
(26:25):
called a state.
There were three levels that Ihad to get approvals from and I
had to sign an agreement that Iwould not drink Coke, coffee,
tea and I would not try toconvert somebody to being
Protestant.
Speaker 2 (26:39):
Okay, so you weren't allowed to drink Coca-Cola.
Speaker 1 (26:43):
Coca-Cola coffee or tea on the campus because they
have health laws againstcaffeine?
Oh, all right.
At that time also this was in1976, 77, there were no African
Americans or blacks in thepriesthood of the Mormon church
(27:06):
because their philosophy hadbeen that they were from Cain,
that the blacks had descendedfrom Cain and they were inferior
to white leadership.
The prophet, while I was there,had two revelations.
One was that they bought thecontrolling interest of the
Coca-Cola company.
The Mormon church did.
You still couldn't drink it it.
(27:30):
But they bought controllinginterest of the Coca-Cola
company because it was amoneymaker, just because they
could.
And they started to allowblacks into the priesthood.
And if think about what washappening in the United States
in the 1970s, what were we goingthrough?
Draw on your history, come on,you've all had this history.
(27:55):
Not the Great Depression, no,that's much further back.
Let's talk about civil unrest,right, civil rights movement and
civil unrest, and what washappening at that time movement
and civil unrest.
And what was what was happeningat that time?
Right, there was a.
There was a.
There was a whole thing aboutpositive affirmation and raising
up people who had felt they,they had had equal opportunity,
(28:17):
right, and so they went rightalong with that.
And so you start to see thattheir, their philosophies and
their scriptures and theirtheology can be changed by the
times, by the influences ofmoney and culture.
Speaker 3 (28:37):
So for Mormonism it's the prophet right.
Speaker 2 (28:40):
So, whoever they are, they have absolute say.
Speaker 1 (28:42):
Absolute say.
They do have the group of 12that sits beneath them and they
seek their counsel, but theirword is it.
Their word is law.
Speaker 3 (28:55):
So they can say, oh, you're not allowed to eat there.
Speaker 1 (29:04):
Well, I'll tell you a quick story.
And it was, and they took acamera and some other stuff and
ice cream and things like that,and we lived in a duplex and
there was an alley behind us.
So the next morning we walkedout and the camera was in the
garden because they had to goover the back fence.
We apparently interrupted themand so they went over the back
(29:27):
fence and they dropped thecamera as they went.
But my neighbor had seen themand they knew who they were and
they were more afraid of thechurch than they were of the
police.
So the guys, you know, that'sthe, that's the control that the
church has.
And so let's go to thegoverning principles.
We believe in what the Bible,the inerrant word of God, that
(29:50):
is what guides us.
We do have doctrinal faithstatements that are a little
different and we have the creeds, which brought together all the
disparate conversations thatwere going on, and we have the
Nicene Creed, and it is you hearit all the time.
We believe that God, the Father, reaffirms the Trinity, the
virgin birth, the death, theresurrection, the crucifixion,
the resurrection, all of thoseIn the Mormon, the top one is
(30:16):
the law of tithing.
You must give 10% to the church.
You must give your tax returnto prove that you've given 10%
to the church.
It is verified.
They believe in the welfareprogram and I will tell you
their welfare program is one ofthe best in the world and that
(30:37):
church raises mothers like noother church does, because they
train them to be mothers fromthe time they're little girls.
Because they believe the Mormonchurch is going to grow by
procreation, by having bigfamilies.
My babysitter had 10 kids.
My baby's got three othersunder the age of two.
There's a special place for hersomewhere or something, but I'm
telling you they do.
(30:57):
But their welfare program isthey fasted for two meals on the
first Sunday of every month andall that money went into their
welfare program to supportpeople who didn't have what
others had.
Speaker 3 (31:09):
So by giving 10%.
You're talking about money,Money 10% of income.
I know this isn't exactly whatyou're talking about, but
whenever you served in theMormon church, you weren't
Mormon right, I did not serve inthe Mormon church, I worked for
the Mormon University.
Speaker 1 (31:25):
Oh, okay, okay, so you were still.
I was, yes, I was a Baptist,okay.
Speaker 2 (31:30):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (31:30):
Oh, okay, so you were still.
I was.
Yes, okay, I was a Baptist.
Okay, yes.
Speaker 2 (31:33):
I was a Baptist working for the Mormons.
Speaker 3 (31:34):
Yes, what were you doing?
You were a Baptist.
Speaker 1 (31:37):
They knew I was Baptist.
Did you hear that?
Yeah, I just was not allowed totalk about my faith to any of
the students, right?
Speaker 2 (31:48):
What were you doing for the university?
Speaker 1 (31:50):
I was a secretary in one of the departments at the
University.
I supported 11 professors.
I typed up all the tests andall those kinds of things and
stuff like that.
Yeah, okay, all right, so let'sgo on to.
They also have the word ofwisdom, which is their health
code, and we talked about thatbeing you're not allowed to use
(32:11):
alcohol, drugs, tobacco, any hotbeverages or anything
containing caffeine, and it isan absolute requirement for
temple entrance.
And temple entrance is whatthey aspire to.
They want to be temple pure.
They want to get married in thetemple, not just in the church,
and for them, that gives them apicture of eternity.
(32:35):
I don't know if any of you'veever been through a Mormon
temple when the temple was builthere.
They generally have it open fora period of time for people to
see and when they come throughit, they have it all.
You can go through and you cansee the entire temple, and I did
this one in the Washington DCand I did it when they redid the
one in Hawaii at the time whenI was there and you walk into it
(32:55):
and there's a picture of Jesussitting up on the wall with the
goats and the sheep.
Remember, he's going toseparate the goats and the sheep
at the time of judgment.
And then you walk through itand everything is white.
The carpet is white, the wallsare white, it's just bright.
It's like you can imagineheaven being.
(33:17):
And they show you the basin thatthey do the baptisms in and
it's like the basin that'sdescribed in the Old Testament,
where all of the oxen are thereand the basin is on the backs of
the oxen and you go on in andin where they get married.
It's an amazing place becausethere's a pedestal and all of
this is covered with white rug.
It's all white carpeted, butthere's a pedestal and the bride
(33:41):
kneels on one side of it andthe groom kneels on the other
side of it, and behind them aremirrors.
Now think about that for aminute.
If you're looking into a mirrorthat's behind you and in front
of you, what do you see?
You see eternity, and thatgives them the sense of the
infinite and the eternity,because they believe they're
(34:02):
married for eternity.
Speaker 2 (34:05):
So does that mean the divorce does?
Speaker 3 (34:07):
not exist in the Mormon church.
Speaker 1 (34:08):
It exists in the Mormon church, but it's not
accepted in the Mormon church.
Speaker 3 (34:12):
So they'll kick you out of their congregation if you
get divorced.
Speaker 1 (34:18):
That's okay.
That's the questions.
Go ahead oh okay.
Speaker 3 (34:22):
So I was going to ask do they have different
requirements for baptisms?
Speaker 1 (34:30):
You're baptized as a believer.
Right, Every person has to bebaptized as a believer.
It's full immersion baptism.
But they also baptize for thedead, Because think about this
in 1820 is when we first had thefirst revelation in the Mormon
church.
Well, how many people had diedbefore 1820?
(34:51):
A lot that had never heard thetruth.
In their opinion rightAccording to their church they'd
never heard the truth, becausethe truth didn't really exist
until 1820, when Joseph Smithcame and got the revelation.
So they do genealogy and theirgenealogy records are some of
the best in the world and you goback and they trace back and
(35:12):
they get baptized on behalf ofthose people who never had the
opportunity to hear the truth,so that those people can then go
into heaven.
Speaker 3 (35:20):
So even if, like you, don't.
Speaker 1 (35:22):
Hold on just a second please.
I have a question here.
Speaker 3 (35:24):
Sorry, so like, even if, like those people like never
knew Right, they were Right.
They were Right Like they justproclaimed that they're.
Speaker 1 (35:32):
They just Right, they get baptized for them, okay,
they baptize everybody.
So I have this question up here.
Speaker 2 (35:37):
Don't the Mormons have like multiple wives.
Speaker 1 (35:41):
There is a branch.
There was a time in the Mormonchurch where polygamy was
accepted.
Polygamy is no longer acceptedin the Mormon church.
It is accepted in some factionsof the Mormon church that have
broken off from the mainstreamMormon church.
There is still polygamy and youmay have seen the reality show,
sister Wives.
There is a branch of polygamyin Utah, but it is the revised
(36:08):
church of the Latter-day Saints.
Okay, go ahead.
Speaker 2 (36:14):
So what would happen if you just went in preaching
the truth about Jesus Christ andall that stuff in one of their
churches you just went inpreaching.
Speaker 1 (36:28):
Well, if you went into their church and tried to
witness to them, they wouldcertainly be very polite.
They're an extremely politereligion and they would just say
thank you and show you the door.
What's the least polite?
I don't know, probably one ofthose funky Indian things.
(36:52):
Let me get some other people,okay.
Speaker 2 (36:57):
Two questions.
One what's polygamy?
Speaker 1 (36:59):
Polygamy is where you can have multiple wives.
Speaker 2 (37:02):
So you're having so in their eyes, right in their
bullies.
He says you're getting baptizedfor in their eyes.
In their belief, it says you'regetting baptized for all the
people before that, all thepeople.
Speaker 1 (37:15):
Not all the people.
You're being baptized forpeople by name.
So like you can't say I want tobe baptized for my whole family
, no, they do.
The genealogy records they nameyou as you're being baptized.
Speaker 2 (37:28):
If that person's dead right that person's dead
already right, which theyprobably are right.
Speaker 1 (37:32):
Yes, this is baptism for the dead.
Speaker 2 (37:34):
If they're already dead and in their eyes you can't
go to heaven until you'rebaptized, then in their eyes are
they just like chilling intheir body.
Speaker 1 (37:46):
Hold on to that thought.
Okay, hold on to that question.
Sorry, I have something tobuild on the ancestral lines.
I have a just like chillin inthe body.
Hold on to that thought.
Okay, hold on to that question.
Speaker 3 (37:50):
Sorry, I have um something to build on the
ancestral lines.
I have a question um like doyou mean that is mormon?
Like a more like a family, orlike inherited religion, or like
who decides who gets like okay,which people get baptized?
Speaker 1 (38:06):
um, they have to prove certain things in the
genealogy records in order to bebaptized for that person, but
you have to meet certainconditions of the religion in
order to do that.
So, just like many of us, Igrew up in a Christian household
, but it wasn't until I made mydecision for Christ that I
became a Christian right.
(38:26):
So their children are raised ina Mormon household, but it's
not until they make theirdecision to be baptized into the
Mormon church that they're amember of the Mormon church.
Okay, I'm going to hold yourquestion because we need to move
along.
All right, so I'll come back toyou in a second.
So let's go on.
Jehovah's Witnesses are baptizedby total immersion.
One of the things that'sinteresting about the Jehovah's
(38:48):
Witnesses are baptized by totalimmersion.
One of the things that'sinteresting about the Jehovah's
Witnesses we spend a lot of timeon Mormons is that they believe
the 144,000 that is mentionedin Revelation is the actual
number of people that will be inheaven.
No more can be added to that,and that number has already been
sealed.
So when they are offeredcommunion in their worship
(39:09):
services, they do not take it.
It's passed to them and theyjust, like you know, we do the
little cups now, but when weused to pass the place, they
just pass it, nobody takes it.
They fill it up and they passit and nobody takes it because
they're not one of the 144,000.
It's an empty sacrament, right.
Speaker 3 (39:30):
What happens if someone takes it?
They?
Speaker 1 (39:34):
wouldn't.
They wouldn't, no, they'd beshunned if they did.
Speaker 3 (39:39):
So it's just like a tradition?
Speaker 1 (39:41):
Yes, it's a requirement of the church that
you don't do that.
Who do they think is the one?
Who?
Just?
So let's go back to one.
Yes, it's a requirement of thechurch that you don't do that.
So let's go back to one of thefundamental beliefs we believe
in who God, the Father, god theSon and the Holy Spirit right,
we believe in the Trinity.
In the Mormon church, god, whois Elohim, is called the
Heavenly Father.
He's not always been God.
Jesus, who is called Jehovah,is the oldest son and his
(40:06):
brother is Lucifer.
We've talked about that In theJehovah Witnesses.
Jehovah is the only God.
Jesus Christ is a specialperson because he was created by
God before all things and he'sidentified as Michael, as the
archangel, in the Bible.
The Holy Spirit is not a person, he's a force and it is his
active force that is used toaccomplish Jehovah's purposes.
(40:28):
And Satan is the author of thelie, of the doctrine of the
Trinity, because the wordTrinity is not in the Bible.
That's a lot right To take in,but we know what we know.
We have God, the Father, godthe Son and the Holy Spirit.
And what does the Holy Spiritdo for you?
(40:49):
Protect you, convict you of thetruth, right?
How many of you have ever goneto do something and you get this
little voice going nope, youdon't want to do that, right?
Oh no, I didn't want you toraise your hand.
So we believe that God has been, is and always will be.
(41:15):
We have an eternal God in threepersons.
Right, elihim, who is the FatherGod, the Heavenly Father of the
Mormons, is one of innumerableself-progressing deities.
Now, there is no indication atall in their literature of when
this first started, but it isself-progressing and he's
(41:37):
married to a multitude of wives.
The Jehovah's Witnesses saythere is one God.
His name is Jehovah.
He is all-powerful andall-knowing, but he's not
all-present and he's not triune.
So what I wanted you to do realquick is flip to either the
last or the next, to the lastpage that looks like this and
(42:02):
this is were there not enoughhandouts for everybody?
Did you not get one?
Okay, I'm sorry, this is how itworks in the Mormon church,
according to heaven.
Okay, all right.
So they have an eternal plan ofsalvation, or what's called
eternal progression.
(42:22):
It starts with prem-mortal life.
There are spirit children ofthe heavenly father.
They come to earth.
That's the first test for them.
They are born into a family,into a Mormon family, and that
is their test to see if they canpass that.
And then they go to spiritparadise or spirit prison and
(42:43):
they're waiting for theresurrection and judgment of the
savior and different apostles.
They view the tapes.
I don't know if any of you everum, there was a great movie
about that, about watching thetapes of your life to determine
where you were going to go.
It was, it was a comedy, it wasreally good.
Um, I think Meryl Streep was init, actually.
(43:03):
But it just reminds you of thiskind of thing where they well
explain to us what you werethinking when you went into the
house to rescue the cat, youknow, and she goes.
Well, it's a living being and Ineeded to.
You know all this kind of stuff,but that's that's the sort of
sense you get that this is whatthey're going to do, question
you on your decisions, aboutwhat you did and what you think.
But you can go to one threelevels, one of three levels the
(43:27):
telestial kingdom isadministered by the Holy Spirit,
the terrestrial kingdom isunder Jesus and the celestial
kingdom is unlimited access toGod, christ and the Holy Spirit
with all of your families andyou get to progress from that
one.
The other two, you just staythere, you don't progress.
(43:47):
And are those other two?
Speaker 3 (43:51):
like that.
Hmm, are those other two likethat?
Speaker 1 (43:59):
I can't tell you.
I can't tell you.
But they believe in threelevels of heaven.
What do you mean by progress?
Progress, then you would becomea god.
It's a self-progressing deity.
You get your own planet.
If you're a deity, right,exactly, if you're coming out of
(44:21):
the celestial kingdom, you andyour wife or wives go and
populate another planet and it'sjust the self-progressing kind
of thing.
It's a little hard to get yourhead around and this is why,
when they are talking to youabout the Mormon religion, you
never hear about these kinds ofthings.
(44:41):
I took the Mormon lessonsbecause I wanted to know what
the students believed.
And I would come back and Iwould sit down with Dr Hammond
and I'd say, well, show it to mein the Bible.
And he couldn't.
We'd spend hours and he'd tryto find something that sounded
kind of like it, but he couldn't.
Speaker 3 (44:58):
So they just so some person just figured all this
stuff out and then told it inone person.
Speaker 1 (45:05):
Joseph Smith was the first prophet of the Mormon
church.
Speaker 3 (45:09):
But there's no scripture.
Speaker 1 (45:11):
The Book of Mormon is what he translated.
That is their scripture.
Speaker 2 (45:14):
So I'm saying this specific part, is it in
scripture?
Speaker 1 (45:16):
It is not in scripture.
It has all come through therevelations of the prophets.
Speaker 2 (45:21):
Okay, so what's their purpose for atonement, then if
eventually, is it just so theycan eventually be judged to good
or evil?
Speaker 1 (45:31):
So they can go, so they would pass the judgment to
get into the celestial kingdom.
And so you also have toremember that if you are not
temple worthy on earth, you willnot be in the celestial kingdom
.
So they all strive to be templeworthy.
Speaker 3 (45:46):
I'm sorry I didn't catch this, but who makes that
judgment for?
Speaker 1 (45:50):
them, joseph Smith and God.
And Joseph Smith is like thefounder, he was the founder of
the Mormon church.
That's quite an elevation for ahuman being to be put up there
with God, right?
So do they believe Joseph Smithis like the above Jesus?
They do.
They do believe he's the finalauthority.
(46:11):
So when founding this, I guess,religion Joseph Smith?
It was said he found stonetablets or gold plates Gold
plates and he couldn't show themto anyone, correct?
Speaker 2 (46:27):
only he could see them.
Speaker 1 (46:29):
Only he could see them.
There is something in thehistory about there may have
been another man and woman whoactually saw the plates, but
they were his scribes andliterally he would go into a
room and look at them throughthis device and translate and
they would write down what hesaw.
But no one could confirm theexistence of these stones?
No, because when he wasfinished translating them,
(46:50):
moroni took them back to heaven,but as they did.
Yeah, it's an interesting thing, and if you go and read a
biography of Joseph Smith,there's some really interesting
things about him and hischaracter.
Speaker 2 (47:06):
So if you reach the top, then, do you start?
Speaker 1 (47:09):
over again.
You get to produce those spiritbodies.
Okay, yep, on your planet, onyour planet.
Okay, got it Alright, okay, soyou go, you basically become
another god, no wait.
Speaker 2 (47:23):
Then how come there's no existence of life, this
planets?
Speaker 1 (47:26):
if this is even true, what a great question.
Say it loud enough foreverybody to hear, because
you've got to get it on thistape thing that I'm recording,
that we're recording.
Speaker 3 (47:39):
If this is true, how come there's no existence of
life on other planets?
Speaker 1 (47:43):
How come we don't see life on other planets?
If this is true, how comethere's no existence of life on
other planets?
How come we don't see life onother planets?
If this is true, it may be adifferent solar system.
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (47:51):
The planets are invisible.
Speaker 1 (47:54):
Okay, so let's go to atonement, because we've talked
a little bit about this.
How do we get atonement?
How are we atoned for?
The substitutionary death ofChrist on the cross gave us
atonement before God right.
So by believing in JesusChrist's work on the cross, we
(48:15):
are atoned for and we have theright to stand in front of God
fully righteous.
Under the Mormons, theprovision was supplied by God
for people to earn theirsalvation by obedience to the
laws and the ordinance of thechurch and in the Jehovah's
Witnesses, the bodilyresurrection is denied.
(48:35):
The only atonement for sin isobeying the laws of the church
and doing the work as theydefine it.
So what do they get out of this?
Hmm, so what do they get?
Speaker 3 (48:46):
out of this?
What do they get out of this?
Speaker 1 (48:50):
They get a thousand years on earth.
Right now I have a nephew and aniece who have come out of
Jehovah's Witnesses and we'vebeen witnessing to them and
walking them through what thetruth is.
And my sister was down for avisit and she has this
conversation with her son allthe time.
He's like Mom, why can't youaccept what we have right now?
(49:12):
And she said because I wantwhat's coming, I want to be with
you in what's coming, and soshe can't enjoy him here and now
.
All she can think of is thathe's walking away from being
with her for the thousand yearson earth.
But think of is that he'swalking away from being with her
for the thousand years on earth.
But really she's the onewalking away.
Right, she's the one that'swalked away.
Yeah, so angels we've um, Idon't know if we talked about
(49:34):
that.
They're created beings.
We had some that weredisobedient to god.
They became satan and hisminions.
Um, we believe the church ofjesus christ of latter-day
Saints believes in angels, butthey believe they're wingless,
they have no wings, and that theangel of God has never had any
wings.
They have the same form ashuman beings, and no angels
(49:57):
minister to the earth exceptthose who belong to it.
That's their statement of faith, but no definition.
And Jehovah's Witnesses don'tbelieve in angels, they don't
believe they can communicateanything.
We believe in the actual personof Satan, don't we?
(50:18):
And that he has dominion.
He has minions that are calleddemons.
We believe in that.
We've seen Jesus cast thosedemons out in different stories
and stuff.
Satan is also an adversary inthe Mormon church.
He was the spirit son of God,who was once an angel, but in
the person um Lucifer rebelledagainst God and then he has
(50:41):
sought to destroy the childrenof God on earth and make their
life miserable.
And we have to agree that whenhe gets to work sometimes we are
pretty miserable, right?
The Jehovah's Witness believethat Satan is God's chief
adversary and the invisibleruler of the world.
So we see Satan's universalityover all three religions.
We see that that common threadis there and, I'm sorry, I don't
(51:05):
know how long this session is.
Speaker 3 (51:07):
I think it's like three.
I think we leave it to three.
Speaker 1 (51:11):
Yeah, is there a second session?
I don't know if there's.
I texted Garrett, let me see ifhe gets it, I'll go ask.
You're good, okay, thank you,because I want to keep going.
You're good, okay, thank you,because I want to keep going.
We want to talk about eternalsecurity because this is
important, because once you'resaved, you're always saved.
(51:34):
Once you have been maderighteous with God because of
your belief in Jesus Christ,you're still saved.
Right, if you walk away fromthe religion, and thank God that
happens because it doesn't sayin the Bible.
If you walk away from thereligion and thank God, that
happens because it doesn't sayin the Bible if you walk away,
it says when you walk away, youwill be, you can be redeemed
again.
So it's eternal salvation andwe believe in the eternal
(51:56):
security of that.
We never fall away from thestate of grace.
Part of the work of salvationin the Mormon church has been
the atonement of Jesus Christ.
But in order to do that, inorder to get the full atonement
of Jesus Christ, you have to dothe work of the church.
And what is the work of theMormon church?
The same thing as the work ofthe Jehovah Witnesses church to
(52:17):
go out and make more disciples.
Speaker 3 (52:22):
So for Christianity, like, once you're or I, go to a
baptist church, so, once you'resaved and um, like you're fully
immersed baptism.
And then, um, like you trulybelieve, and then you walk away
from, like jesus in the church,maybe, like, you start doubting
your religion and um, like, isit possible then?
(52:45):
Like, so you'd always be saved,like you'd still go to heaven.
Speaker 1 (52:48):
You will not lose your salvation.
Yes, one hour.
So we're just coming up on that.
Okay, so there's a lot moreinformation I want to get you to
the page.
There's some interesting thingson the thing called unique
beliefs.
Jehovah's Witnesses do notobserve birthdays or Christmas,
easter or Thanksgiving, they areforbidden to vote or run for
(53:09):
public office, they do notsalute the flag, they do not
serve in the military and theydo not accept blood transfusions
.
Speaker 3 (53:18):
I have a question what if they get drafted?
Speaker 1 (53:21):
They will be a conscientious objector.
What does that mean?
They file for conscientiousobjection.
They do not serve in themilitary.
Speaker 3 (53:30):
Oh, so they just like get excused.
Speaker 1 (53:33):
Well, sort of yes, okay, we did talk about them.
There's a page on here, though,that I really want you to look
at, and it's called A QuickSummary of False Beliefs.
Let's go over them real quick.
Mormons believe that Jesus wasthe spirit child of the Heavenly
Father and Heavenly Mother.
That he became the Redeemerbecause he had a better strategy
than Lucifer.
(53:54):
That his greatest atoning workwas in Gethsemane, not on the
cross.
Mormons believe that, as man is, god once was, as God is man
may be.
Think about that.
Right.
God was a man who became a God,and now that he's become a God,
(54:16):
he set the example for you tobecome a God as man was.
As man is God once was.
As God is now, man may be.
Speaker 3 (54:27):
Why would you?
Speaker 1 (54:35):
Apparently, yeah, yes .
Well, the men will the men,will Women go with them?
Speaker 3 (54:45):
Okay, so that means, if you're just so in their eyes,
in their eyes.
Speaker 2 (54:53):
If your husband's successful in life, you go.
Speaker 1 (54:59):
With him.
Speaker 2 (55:00):
With him to repopulate the planet.
Speaker 1 (55:03):
Yes, you got it.
Everyone is a self-progressingdeity who will populate their
own worlds.
Speaker 3 (55:09):
So, because they believe that Earth is God's
planet, when they go and havetheir own planet, do the Mormons
of that planet only respond tothem, or do they also respond to
the God of Earth?
Speaker 1 (55:24):
I believe that they have to take their own religion
with them.
Okay, yeah, I didn't.
Speaker 2 (55:29):
Right.
Speaker 1 (55:31):
All right, I want to just wrap this up.
I just I want you to see howdifferent their beliefs are than
ours, right?
And how many rules they haveand how many.
And how this did not come outof the mouth of Jesus Christ,
right?
Our belief system came, and howthis did not come out of the
mouth of Jesus Christ, right.
Our belief system came out ofthe mouth of Jesus Christ, and
that's who we follow, because heis the son of God.
(55:53):
What happens if you're a womanand you're not married, but
you're a woman?
You don't ever make it tocelestial Because you've never
born children, right?
Speaker 2 (56:09):
Wait.
So if you get married and thenyou don't have children, it to
celestial because you've neverborn children.
Speaker 1 (56:12):
Right, so to populate .
Yeah, I saw that face.
Yep, the main purpose of awoman in the Mormon religion is
to have children yes, as many asyou can have.
And I worked with a lady whowas having her first child and
she was this tiny, tiny littlething.
She felt like you, amy Tiny,tiny little thing, and when she
(56:33):
had her first baby, she had amiserable time and she had such
bad depression because she neverwanted to go through it again.
And she was a Mormon wife andshe knew she was going to be
expected to have baby after baby, after baby.
I want you to understand thatthese are people that God has
commanded us to love and toshare the truth with, and so, as
(56:57):
you develop relationships withthem, as you try to make
friendships with them, ask themquestions to understand what
they believe and tell them whatyou believe and why you believe
it.
And because you believe in theinerrancy of the Bible, because
Jesus Christ is the one that yousaid it.
And so we just ask you, we wantyou to have this information
it's a lot of information, butit's good information so that
(57:20):
when you're somebody says to youI believe in Jesus Christ.
You don't automatically assumethat it's the same Jesus that
you believe in, because you cansee the differences.
Right, that's okay.
Yes, they encourage it.
They do encourage adoptionbecause it's growing the faith.
Yeah, that's a really hardthing.
(57:45):
If you have fertility issues inthe Mormonren, that's a really
hard thing.
If you have fertility issues inthe Mormon church, that's a
really hard thing.
Speaker 3 (57:49):
Do they just think you're cursed or something?
Speaker 1 (57:51):
I'm not quite sure how they deal with that, but it
is not.
They do adopt a lot, thenprobably.
Yeah, let's pray.
It's 2 o'clock.
Popular Podcasts
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.