F*ck, Let’s Talk About Friendship! with Maddie Marsh

Episode Transcript
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Dominique Hind (00:00):
Hi, I'm Dom Hind and F*ck, I'm nearly 50.
Actually, I'm 47 and a fewmonths. But who's counting?
Okay, I am, and let's be honest,if you're here listening, you
probably are too, becausemidlife sneaks up on you. One
day you're wearing low risejeans at cargo bar with a
Smirnoff black in your hand, andthe next you're Googling, is it

(00:22):
perimenopause, or am I justragey While whispering
affirmations into your keep cup.
And one of the wildest parts ofmidlife friendship, you start
life surrounded by people whojust happen to be there,
schoolmates, uni housemates,work colleagues, exhausted
fellow, parents who bond withyou at a soft Play Centre or
during nap times. Some of thesefriendships fizzle, some of them

(00:49):
stick, and some become yourforever people. They're the ones
who've seen all versions of you,the fun you, the broken you, the
trying to hold it all togetheryou and they still want in
today, I've got one of myforever people on the couch.
She's been through it all withme, newborn haze, identity
crisis, career pivots, shittydinners, magic moments,
heartbreak, healing and someserious retail therapy. She's

(01:11):
the kind of friend who'll saythe hard stuff with love, but
call out the bullshit and makesure that she turns up on your
doorstep when you need it. Solet's get into it, because fuck,
I'm nearly 50, and isn't itamazing. But disclaimer is, I
have got a cold and a reallyraspy voice, so this episode is

(01:34):
not what I normally sound like.
Thank you for listening.

Maddie Marsh (01:42):
You Maddie

marsh and I met in the most classic mid 30s way
at mother's group, bleary eyed,sleep deprived and wondering how
the actual fuck we got here,latest and Spencer were just
eight weeks old. She noticed mypink shoes, and I noticed her
bright, unfiltered energy. Thencame the question that sealed

(02:14):
it. Wait, do you not own ahandbag? Nope, just plastic bags
and recycling shopping totes. Sosomehow, from there, that's all
it took. We clicked, and thatwas that. Back then I lived in
Mosman, so it was allspontaneous cuppas, couch chats

(02:35):
while the babies maybe napped orate yoghurt and stood on chairs
and just chaotic plate days. NowI'm over the other side of the
bridge, all the way in Watson'sBay, and our friendship has
evolved into a full blown dayfestivals when we get all the
crew together, Think WaterParks, yum cha, where the kids
are obsessed about rainbow jellylegs, trees, skitties and

(03:03):
followed by bowling, arcadegames and milkshakes. Chaos,
laughter, always loud, alwaysfun. Leighton Spencer bow and of
course, Hallie are thick asthieves. They've even started a
business called Big burpenterprises, named after an Ikea
shark who is its mascot. Andthere's merch newsletter, and

(03:24):
it's actually a thing. Butbeyond the kids and the crazy,
Maddie has been my Lighthousethrough the storm, new
motherhood, identity, Wobbliescareer pivots, the tears, the
joy, all of it. She's loud,she's dramatic. She's an only
child who doesn't like to sharesnacks, and she is one of the

(03:45):
best humans I know. So Maddie,welcome to fuck I'm nearly 50. I
know how you introduce yourselfat kids parties, but today I
want the full LinkedIn treatmentgo on. Give us your meta
overview. I feel like we

Unknown (04:03):
shouldn't ignore the fact that you used to make
everyone wear name tags at kidsparties forever. And I feel like
your children got cakes at theparties because of me. So I feel
like that is way better than myfull LinkedIn intro. It has been
such a wild ride. I mean,honestly, the fact that you
throw in skitties in the introis mortifying. I feel like

(04:25):
that's definitely got to cutout. But, you know, I think, I
think one of the things thatmeant that we clicked from the
get go is, yes, we had littlekids, and they were the same
age, and we were sleep deprived,and it was mental. But I
remember this moment where wesat in the mothers group cafe
after that weird moment in thecommunity hall, and we both
realised we worked inadvertising, and it was like

(04:46):
this shortcut to, okay, you'reprobably also crazy, but I'm
gonna love you.

Yeah, true, which is, yeah, very true, but
yeah, I agree. And that wasprobably it did short circuit
it. And it did mean that a lotof. Conversations, we had
something to base it onto, yeah

Maddie Ma (05:02):
and a little bit more substance than just how much
sleep Did you not get lastnight? Yes,

or is your child actually eating or

Maddie Ma (05:10):
not eating? Or, in my child's case, not rolling ever

or latent, just like crawling too quickly or
doing everything too quicklyanyway. Tell me about you,
though, you as a person.

Maddie Mars (05:23):
I mean, I think the only child piece is really
important, because I know we'regoing to talk about friendships,
and I think, you know, we'vetalked about this a lot, I think
particularly when you don't havea big family, from a sibling
point of view, or maybe havesiblings and they meet certain
needs, but not all your needs, Ithink you end up building this,
like chosen family around you,and I think that's certainly

(05:45):
really core to who I am, is, howdo you build a community around
you for all different parts ofyour life, the people that you
truly consider your family, andto your point is like, when the
time's awesome and when the shithits the fan, who are Those
people that you're going tocall? And there's not many of
those people that really whenthe going gets super tough, who

(06:06):
are you going to pick up andcall and who's going to rock up
on your doorstep and really helpyou through some pretty tricky
times? Yep, yep.

And I think that's yeah, definitely where we
have been there for each other.
And I do think that, yeah, thechosen family is such a big
thing, particularly not even foran only child, but even when
you've moved away from yourfamily as well, it is you do
need to build that network ofpeople, and it's great because
that's what we're talking abouttoday, is friendships. So do you

(06:35):
remember the moment that weactually did mate?

I fully remember. I don't know if the shoes were
pink. I feel like maybe theywere turquoise. I don't think
you were as bright coloured thenas you were now, but there was
definitely a bright colouredshoe involved. And as we've
laughed about a lot, most peoplewere in leggings, and leggings
are not pants. So, you know,there was definitely a shared
love of that. I think you and Iwere on the other side of the

(06:59):
circle to each other. And Iremember thinking that you were
far more put together than mostpeople in that room, and
probably sort of scarily So,right? I remember that Spencer
would basically sleep on me theentire meeting in that weird
community hall. And I rememberthat you just seemed really
composed and on top of it. And Ithink I probably thought maybe I

(07:21):
could feel more on top of it ifI was friends with you. But
little did I know that you werejust like this extraordinary,
super person who just was on topof everything all the time and
is also just a

little bit scary. Let's stop there. I'm on
top mostly probably scary,laughably scary. Okay, so that
was the first impression. Then,yep, Oh, wow.

Maddie Mar (07:44):
No, I think, no, no, not lovably scary, but just
that, you were very you werecomposed, you were in control.
You sent to know what was goingon, but at the same time and
like, that was like the acrossthe room, yeah, okay. And then,
I think, then when we connected,just overflowing with energy and
positivity and just, you know,in that classic, like radiator,

(08:05):
like someone that I just want tobe with.

Okay, good. I'm happy with that. Why do you
think newborn friendships are sointense?

I mean, I think the whole thing is so far out, isn't
it, right? And I thinkespecially for you and I, it was
the first child for us both,we'd both come from really
hectic jobs. You were like,leading your own business, like
there was so much, and then allof a sudden your world comes to
like, this screaming halt, andyou actually have no control

(08:34):
over anything. And I think forboth you and I, we both have
high control needs, right? Sosuddenly you're thrown into this
chaos. And I think it's like,you need, you need the support,
but you also need the like,friendship and the laughter to
get you through, because it isso chaotic. Oh, and it's hard.
It's hard. Everyone goes, Oh, mygod. It's so beautiful. And my

(08:58):
world felt so complete. And I'mlike, Really, I'm just
exhausted. And I, you know,like, things that I think
everyone makes out that shouldbe really easy, like feeding for
me, like, really hard. So Ithink it's that, you know, it's
so confronting, because I thinkyou want to be a high achiever,
yeah, and you want to nailparenting, and you can't, right?

(09:21):
And then you think you've nailedit, and something else comes
out, and you're like, I'vedefinitely not nailed this.

What is the secret? And we have had many
discussions about this, tokeeping a friendship going when
life gets in the way.

Maddie M (09:36):
I mean, I think it is.
We've talked about this a lot,and I think it's there's depth,
but then there's alsopracticalities, yeah, so I think
the depth is and I think, youknow, you and I bonded, because
pretty randomly, right? Like ourkids were born within three days
of each other, and it was justlike coinkydink, and let's be
honest, we've stayed awesomemates, yeah, but if you find one

(09:57):
awesome person. Person through amother screen, I'd say that I
win, right? Absolutely,absolutely. I think, I think
that, in itself, is not enough,right? And I think what has
helped endure our friendship,and I think what is really
important to friendshipsenduring, is you've got to have
enough depth, which means, like,you're willing to be vulnerable,
and you're willing to share, andyou're willing to, yes, rejoice

(10:22):
in the highs, but alsoabsolutely rock in the corner,
in the lows. But I also think itdoes take work, and it's a bit
like all relationships, right?
Like jokes aside about how Iintroduce myself at work or at a
kid's party, it's always aboutpeople and your connection. And
it's one of those things that Ithink you do have to water. You
do have to nurture. And I think,you know, you and I have talked

(10:45):
a lot, I think people can comeand go, Yeah, and I think you
can go through periods whereyou're more really, like, almost
daily, tightly synced. And thenyou can go through periods where
that elasticity is longer, andsame time text message. If you
don't know what's going on insomeone's life in the core

(11:06):
moments that matter, then Iprobably question how deep or
true your friendship really is.
But I do think it takes morework than probably people let
on. Yeah, and it does require, Ithink, like some common values,
yes, and some common beliefs,yeah,

I agree. And also it is like with friendship,
and it is really interestingwhere I do think there are
different types of friendships

Maddie M (11:33):
as well. I think there are different types of
friendships, and I think thereare different friendships for
different times, yes, now insaying that we have a really
enduring friendship. And I thinkeven in our friendship, we've
had moments where we've beenlike, hyper, daily, tight and
then like, stretch it a bitfurther, especially when you
moved all the way to Watson'sBay, all the way to Watson's

(11:55):
Bay, but at the same time, it'slike some people, I think, value
friendships more than others?
Yeah, I agree, and I think somepeople probably have more
capacity to be able to care andthink for others, and that's
okay. And I think that'sprobably been one of my harder
journeys when it comes tofriendships. I think
particularly because there's asmall cohort of my friends who

(12:17):
are very much that chosenfamily, but it's like when you
know you would do almostanything for that person, you
have to accept that that's notalways reciprocated, and you
can't always take that like soto the core of you or your
friendship, you probablysometimes just need it to fly

(12:38):
through to the keeper and seewhat happens on the flip side,

which, because you do not know what is
happening in their life at thatpoint in time, exactly. And you
know you just being there, andeven that occasional text
message, even if you don't get areply, will be something that
it'll come out in the wash,

and like care and thoughtfulness. And I think, you
know, particularly, I thinkparticularly when people are
going through the hard stuff,right? And I think to your
question around like, what is itthat connects you? I think when
you have really little kids,it's because you're going
through so much hard stuff, andyou actually just need a
sounding board to be like, areyou two going through this? And
maybe, what did you do that madeit easier, right? Yeah, but I

(13:19):
think there's something in that,like core moment of the
vulnerability that I think doesconnect you. And not to say that
that's the only way in which youcan have that, like, you know,
I've got a couple of reallygreat mates who I've known for
30 years, from high school oreven before that, in dance. And
I think it's like, you do gothrough the ebbs and flows, but

(13:40):
if you still have a bloody greattime together and you care
deeply about each other, it'sawesome. And equally, sometimes
it's time to probably shed theskin and let some people go. And
that's not a negative thing.
It's probably just acceptingthat maybe that particular
chapter of friendship is

closed. Yeah, I think that's a big

Maddie M (14:00):
thing, particularly as you get older, you go and you
have less time. As you getolder, totally you you are
stretched

so thin it's hard to connect with the people
that are you've chosen family

and the people that really matter.

Yeah, and it is if the effort's not put in, or
it's not reciprocated, or, youknow, it's time, or even if it's
hard, if it's hard and you feeldrained at the end of an
interaction that should, youknow, decider that you need to
let it go.

Maddie Ma (14:32):
And I think if you're drained every time, right? So I
think, like, you know, whetheror not it's like this, zappers
and zappers or the radiators anddrains, right? You can have
moments, and we've had so manyright, where I've probably
drained you, and you've veryoccasionally drained me, right?
And that's just totally part ofit, absolutely. But if time and

(14:53):
time and time again, you feellike it is like all give and all
give, and there's nothing. Comesback. And I've definitely had
instances where I've felt thatYep, and I think you've got to
call it

Yeah. And do you think you call it to them, or is
it that you just do the ghostingand let it drift away?

Maddie (15:14):
I mean, I feel like you could probably do both, and I've
probably got stories where maybeI've done both. I definitely
take things really personally,like the super sensitive Susan
in me, right? We know that thishas and I feel like maybe as I
edge closer, not as close to youas 50, but closer to 50, you're
probably the maturity comesthrough in that, and you

(15:35):
probably have started to learnto be a bit less sensitive all
the time, but at the same time,it's like, if it's not bringing
you joy, you've got to get ridof it. You've got to shake it
off, yeah? Or maybe not shake itoff, maybe just put it on the
back burner for a bit.

Yeah. And it's interesting. So I, so I, you
know, even doing the friendshipcull or clean up. But usually I
love it girl. I love goingthrough stuff and just getting
rid of it, like, get it out ofmy life. Now you should see the
stuff that I need to get outanyway, but I can remember there

(16:09):
have only been one or two timesit probably even just one where
I have properly ghosted someone,like, properly ghosted someone
other times. Because, you knowwhat? I should have told her
that I was sick of her shit,yeah, and sick of her negativity

(16:30):
and well, especially

when you are the embodiment of positivity, right?
The

jealousy in comparison that this person had
to everyone else. It just wasn'thealthy, yep, and out of that,
the comparison just created somuch gossip. And I was like, I'm
not interested. Like, go liveyour life. But just live your
life. Stop comparing. And Ithink it was just easier just to

(17:00):
cut. And do you feel bettersince, oh so light us better?
Because I don't even have tothink about

Maddie Ma (17:06):
it. Yeah, yeah. And I do think sometimes you do just
have to cut. I've probably gotone example where I cut and I
definitely don't look back withany regrets. And then probably
some that I'd say are more likemaybe on the back burn, yeah.
And I've, you know, I thinkthere's friendships where you've
been on the back burn and thenyou come back, like, with

(17:28):
friends who live away furtherthan Watson spay, right? It's
like, I think you can go throughperiods where you're not as
tight, or you're not asconnected in the minutia of the
day or the week of the month,but you can equally see someone
from the other side of theworld, and it's like you saw
them yesterday. And I do thinkthat that's incredibly special,
but you still have it has to berewarding, yeah, and it has to

(17:51):
be fun. I think that's one ofthe things that has kept our
friendship so, like, constantlyhilarious, is that sometimes to
our own annoyance with our kids,like we over index on fun,
right? And I think that that'sreally important, right? Yeah,
so much of life is hard, so muchof life is, like, serious and a

(18:12):
struggle at times, that if youcan't have someone, we're just
going to have a really fuckingfun time with Yeah, then, like,
why put your energy there?

That's it. And you know what you do when you
get to this age, you do realisethat life's so short, and you
just need to be having that funand just be enjoying it and
getting the joy out of everymoment.

And I think the competition thing is
interesting. I'd say at myworst, I can get upset if I'm
left out back to my supersensitive Susan, right? Because
I so I've got massive FOMObecause I love having fun. But
also, I think you've got toaccept that everyone's got their
own thing going on in life,right? And like, I haven't read

(18:55):
it, but there's that book at themoment that people are all
talking about it, about thelike, the let them. And my
husband says it to me all thetime, and he goes, just let them
Yeah. And there is somethingreally like liberating in that.
It hundreds you can't doeverything all the time. And as
we know, I've tried, and then Iend up getting burnt out, right,
or sick, which is my classic goto but, you know, I think you've

(19:17):
got to learn to say no, yeah.
And you've got to accept thateveryone else has got their own
life, yeah? And you actually arehappy for that, yeah? And you
just want to make sure thatyou're putting your buckets of
joy and time and energy in thepeople that matter most and in
the people that you have reallygreat memories.
Yeah, I know. And I think thatyeah. The the

I love Mel Robbins, let

Maddie Ma (19:41):
them theory book. See she's actually read it.

Yeah. Well, hang on, I've listened.

Maddie (19:46):
She got AI to summarise it for her 100%

give me the 10 things, no, but it's great
because it does put the powerback into your mindset about not
feeling left out. Up and goingif they had caught each other?
What happens if they'd seen eachother down the road, at the
park, wherever, and they'dorganise to do something you
can't like. It's up to them tohave their relationship as well.

(20:11):
You don't always have to be agroup. There can just be a few
people who do go out together aswell. And I do think the let
them theory just helps you letit go

and not take it personally. Not take it
personally, because it's notpersonal. It's not, it's not.
And I think it's having theconfidence that your friendships
are strong. They're enduring.
Yes, they're going to ebb andflow through periods of time,
but I do think you can only havea really tight core. And you and

(20:45):
I have spoken about this a lot,and I think there's a difference
between friends who maybe comeand go in chapters, or friends
who come and go aroundcircumstances. So it might start
as a newborn mother's group, butit becomes an enduring or it
might start as a school mum'sfriendship, and it becomes a
forever friend. But at the sametime, there are people that just
come and go, yeah, and there arepeople who maybe they're like

(21:06):
one of your kids, best mates,parents, and you really like
them, and you don't know yet atthis point if they're going to
become a forever person, butyou're having a great time
together in the short term.

Yep, exactly.
And I think that is, is, yeah,it's just interesting life, life
in the stages and thefriendships in the stages as
well.

And I do the other piece, I think you and I have
talked about a lot is friendshipas part of the bigger fabric of
your relationships in life,yeah, you know. And I think part
of your journey, as you get tocloser to thank you is
acknowledging that you love andthrive and want really deep

(21:49):
relationships from your friends.
Yeah, and I think, like over thelast 12 years, I've seen you
shift, probably, your desire andneed for those relationships.
Oh,

absolutely. And you know what I think it is, and
those early stages, it was allabout work, all about work,
work, work, work, work. And yourealise that it's not as
satisfying as what you think itis. So maybe not the be all and
end all, or not the you knowwhat, not the be all and end
all. There are other things thatcan give you that rush and that

(22:25):
joy, but also make sure thatyou're laughing and smiling at
the same time.

Maddie M (22:28):
I mean, it does remind me the day when the sale of the
business went through. Yeah. Andback to the comment up front
about the not having a handbag,like, literally didn't have a
handbag had like the old schoolplastic woollies bag filled with
snacks. And you and I, you justsold your business for

(22:49):
incredibly successful moment inlife, and we were so proud, and
like we rejoiced and celebratedin all the right things as we
sat in a park, yeah, with somekid snacks out of a plastic bag.
And I think, like, despite thecomedy visual of that, it's also
like, actually what mattered wasyou being with someone who you

(23:11):
could feel your complete andauthentic self, yeah, and yes,
you were so proud of thatmoment. But also, actually
wasn't the be all and end

all, no, but you know what? And I still don't
have an expensive handbag,because I'm like, Why do I
actually need it anyway? Well,Justin tries to buy them for me.
Justin does try and buy them.
Oh, I'm not gonna use a bag. Idon't need it. Yeah. Okay, good.
What do you think really mattersin a friend?

Oh, it's a good question. I think loyalty,
compassion, kindness, fun, yep.
Like, you really want to have alaugh and honesty, yeah. Like, I

(24:01):
think sometimes you need yourmates to, like, tell you to pull
your head in. And, like,sometimes your mates can
probably tell you to do that.
Like, I was texting with a matelast night, and she was like,
you know, am I taking this toheart? And I was like, No. If I
thought you were being like anidiot about this, I would tell
you to pull your head in, yeah,and you're not. And I think
sometimes your friends can dothat with you without it turning

(24:23):
into an argument with yourparents. Oh, yeah, I got, I do
think you need that honesty eachway. What? Like,

hang on. We've got too much drama going on now.

Maddie Ma (24:32):
I mean, I love drama, maybe drama,

yeah, I think that too. And I do think that by
just knowing that everyone doeslike having a little less
judgement about people as well,and trying to see it from their
perspective and what's going onin their world, because you
don't know what's going on, evenon the surface, like you can be

(24:59):
all put. Together, yeah, allproperly put together, all seen
to be and dying an inside, dyingon the inside. And I think
sometimes that does causedifferent reactions in
friendships, and you just needto be there. And that loyalty
and that, you know, inquisitivecuriosity, making sure that
they're

Maddie Mar (25:16):
okay is a big thing.
And I think know when they wantto pour their souls out, yeah,
and when they actually just wantyou to help them hold it
together, yeah, yeah, I thinkthat's and to pick those
moments.

Yes. What do you wish you'd known about
friendship 10 years ago?

Be less sensitive?
Yeah. I mean Jokes aside, Ithink having the confidence that
your people are your people,yeah? And do you trusting in
that that comes though withconfidence in yourself? I think
it's probably confidence inyourself and probably a little
bit of maturity, yeah, I thinkthat, and maybe it comes back,
especially for me, around theonly child. Thing is it's

(25:58):
probably a combo of, like,wanting and needing to be loved.
And also FOMO, yeah, I

was going to bring in the FOMO, like, the
ability to say no to some thingsand know that that's okay, and
no, it's okay, is actually a bigthing. Like the joy of missing
out, like I love that alwaysmeans sometimes. I mean, would
we say always, maybe not always,maybe not always, but it is,
yeah, it is different. You knowyou I think

it is probably confidence. I think it's
confidence in yourself, but alsoconfidence in the people that,
like, know you inside out, yeah.
Like, I can't remember what themoment was recently with a mate,
but, like, I remember herlaughing to me on the phone,
being like, this is just so youYeah. And I'm like, Yeah, you're
right. Like, you know, it's justsometimes, I think, not in a too

(26:50):
serious sense, but sometimes youcan be hard on yourself, and
actually you just have to trustthe fact that you've got some
great mates, yes, and justembrace that. Yeah,

and do you have different friends for different
moods, work, fun, deep chats?

Maddie Mar (27:10):
I mean, probably not for different moods, but maybe
for different chapters ordifferent moments. So I think, I
mean, I'm very social at work,for example, and I've got a
couple of really great mates atwork. And I'd say, when I look
back career wise, there'sprobably always a couple of
really great mates that staywith you, and that's awesome.

(27:32):
And you very much the same inthat regard. I think, I think
you have a really tight core,and I think you probably can't
kid yourself that anyone's gotenough bandwidth or capacity to
truly have you know, I have thisjoke with one mate about like
one hand, and that you can'thave a core that's bigger than

(27:56):
people that you could fit on onehand. And I genuinely believe
that, and that's not to say thatyour core is with you every day
in the minutia, but I think whenthe going gets really great or
really tough, they're the peoplewho are by your side. But then I
think there are other peoplethat do come and go with life. I
mean, I remember, I rememberyour husband saying to me once

(28:18):
something about and we weretalking about some other people
that we were both friends withat the time about, you know,
will they be a character in thebook, or will they just be a
character for a chapter? And Ido think that there are some
friends that are a chapter, ormaybe a few chapters, but I
think your core, they're thereare what you take through

(28:40):
forever. And I think really it'slike empathy, fun and probably
honesty that keeps that working.
What

happens if you don't have the core like, what
do you do?

Maddie Mar (28:55):
I mean, I think some people need less friends, yeah,
and I don't know if that's afamily or only child piece, or
an introvert, extrovert piece ora capacity piece, but I think
some people, I don't think, needas many friends as me. Like I
know I love being surrounded bypeople, and I thrive off the

(29:16):
energy of people. Not everyoneis like that. No, I think
equally, maybe, maybe it's aconfidence piece, maybe it's a
fun piece, maybe it's apersonality piece. Maybe for
some people, they only need oneor two mates, and that's okay,

(29:37):
and that's not a bad thing. No,like, I think it's so personal.
Yeah, it is. And I do thinkthere's probably a difference in
how men and women approachfriendships too agree. And you
and I have spoken about this abit, and it's like there are
probably, I think also there aresome couples who are very i. Are

(30:00):
tight, yep, right, and we canboth name, yeah, people like
this. And that's, again, notalways a good thing, and it's
not always bad, no, it's justmaybe if you've got that, you
need less other people, or ifyou have a really big, tight
family and you're an introvert,maybe you need less people. But
I think it is such a core partof who I am. I know, like,

(30:24):
people at work Pull me up allthe time, because I'll be like,
Oh, my bestie. And they'll belike, sorry, which bestie is
this? And, like, that's just my75 it's my core, but it's still
but for some people, maybe theyonly need one or two in that
core, yeah, and that's okay, butI think it's really personal,
yeah, which is probably a bit

vague, but how do you think you find friends as
you get older?

Maddie Mar (30:49):
I mean, I think with you and I, we just clicked
straight away. Yeah, I think,like, you know, with my really
good high school mates, you'vegot such a long history, and
you've you've known thatjourney, and you've had moments
where you've been so tight, andthen moments when you've been
less tight. I think sometimesyou know it instantly. I think
sometimes people surprise you,and maybe sometimes people

(31:12):
disappoint you. And I thinkparticularly in instances where
you either call it and you cutthem, or you maybe put someone
on the back burn. Maybe you'reat a point where they've really
disappointed you, or you're at apoint where you just have less
in common. And I think like notto say that you need all of your
friends to be like you and atthe same stage with you and the

(31:34):
same number of kids and the samekids and all of that, but you
need to have some commonality.
There

needs. There definitely does need to be. Plus

Maddie (31:41):
there's practicalities.
Yeah, we live all the way inWatson's Bay. You know, it's
harder, or whatever.

Why is it so hard to make friends as an
adult?

Maddie Ma (31:53):
I mean, is it hard to make friends adults? You

know what I think it is in this is where,
like, the male versus femalething. I think because females
are out and about more, they'reparticularly if they're a mum,
they have the school network.
They're more involved in theschool. There is that
opportunity. But I do think itis harder for men to actually
make friends as they get laterin life,

and I think they're probably more closed and less
vulnerable. Yeah, like, I thinkif we go back to like, you need
to be okay to say everything wasnot okay, yeah, I agree, yep.
And I don't know, I think somemen are good at that. Probably
they're trying to get slightlybetter at it, as a really broad,
high speaking statement, butthere's a lot of bravado out

(32:39):
there, yeah, and I think thatthat can be limiting, because
you can end up in a reallyfickle, one dimensional
conversation. And I don't thinkthat that is being a true
friend.

No, I know I do.
Yeah, I think it is, hopefullyit is changing. I mean, there's
so much that men's mental healthand, you know, being able to
share, but it is hard, I think,for men to actually find those
friendships later in life,unless it's come through work,
it's tough work,

Maddie Mar (33:09):
or maybe schools, or like, you know, for a lot, I
think, you know, around sport,as cliched as that sounds, but I
think, I think it's also hardbecause You have less time,
yeah, and you and I always, andin fact, my husband and I always
joke that if he goes, I justdon't have time. I go, Yeah,
it's funny, because DOM just hasmore time, and then he goes, Oh,

(33:30):
I better pull my head in. Butyou know, it's hard. I mean,
poor Sean, he just has less timethan everyone else. I love you,
honey. But you know, I mean, Ido think it's hard because your
demands increase, like my momand I have spoken about this a
lot, I think we are in thatcrunch window where you've still

(33:50):
got a career that's reallydemanding in whatever way, shape
or form that takes you've gotkids, and the ever increasing
emotional needs of those kids,Yeah, okay, great. They can have
a shower and feed themselves,but, or get their bus, or get a
bus, amazing. But, like, youknow the emotional support that
comes with that you've got apartner and, and, and, and,

(34:13):
yeah, so I think it comes backto, like, sometimes being
pragmatic, but then at the sametime, how much do you need that
for your soul? And I think Ineed that for my soul.

It is the trade off of what like, what
investment in friendship can Iget to make sure that my soul,
or my my heart or my cup isactually full

Maddie Mar (34:38):
and and knowing that sometimes that might come at a
cost of something else, likedoing the dishes, like culling
cupboards,

whatever DOM what would you say to someone
who's feeling a bit lonely?

Maddie M (34:56):
Oh, that makes me feel sad. Oh, no. I. Yeah, I think,
ask for help.

But do you reckon if they're feeling
lonely, they would,

Maddie Mar (35:06):
I would think, well, okay, maybe two things. If
you've got even one person, askfor help. Like, start small and
be honest and open. If you feellike you don't even have one or
two people like, get involved,yeah, whatever interest or
community or kids thing or workthing, just have a crack at

(35:33):
maybe putting yourself outsideyour comfort zone and seeing if
you can build something small.
It's

funny. So in the let them theory book, it does
say, you know, one of the thingsis that social connection is
such a massive thing for allpeople, whether it's male,
female, young or old, we'resocial beings. Absolutely. And
there's been so much researchthat's shown if your social
network and community isactually strong as you get

(36:00):
older, you do live for longerbecause you are more complete
and you are more fulfilledinside. But Mel Robbins says
you've got to put yourself outthere. If you've got an
interest, go join a group, go dosomething or go be where the
people are, and also say yourname first ask someone's name,

(36:21):
so that even if you are in acoffee shop, you go in and say
to whoever's serving you, oh,hi, I come here often. What's
your name, so that at leastyou've got someone

Maddie Mar (36:32):
to talk to. Yeah, my mom with the gallery, right?
Yeah? It's like findingsomething in retirement that you
love, that you meet, like mindedpeople that you connect, yeah,
sure, initially around art andyour absolute love and
fascination of that, but thenshe's made some extraordinary
friends out of that. But it is,it's finding maybe that

(36:54):
community, yep, and thenbuilding and investing in those
friendships. And I do thinkfriendship takes investments?

Yep, and it is.
You're right. You have to putyourself out there. If you are
feeling lonely, you've justlike, you've got to take that
first step to it will beuncomfortable initially, like,
it's going to be uncomfortable,

but, and for some personalities, more
uncomfortable than others,absolutely.

But you know what, even if it is taking that
first step or just knowing thatyou can go and say hello to
someone at the coffee shop, atleast there's that interaction.

And I think for parents, there's so much natural
interaction that happens throughthose communities that it's
like, I mean, we've spoken aboutthis a lot. I've spoken about
this a lot, especially sinceSpencer started his new school,
is like, a lot of the time whatyou put in is what you get out
Absolutely. So yes, you're goingto meet some people who are
lovely but aren't necessarilyyour people, but then you're

(37:51):
going to meet some people whoare super your people. Yeah, and
it's like, if you nurture that,and you invest in that, like any
great relationship, you're goingto get some really great,
rewarding memories that come outof that. And I think it's like,
that's part of I think what haskept our friendship so strong
for so many years is it's thatinvestment, but it's also the

(38:12):
memories. Yeah, absolutely learnthe memories, not just for us,
but for our family, for ourkids. And, you know, it's

awesome. And I think it's funny. I was reading
this thing, and it made like wasso became so apparent to me that
as we get older, even some ofthe friendships that we do have,
we just go and do the routinestuff, catch up for a coffee, go
for a walk, but we don't dothings that are actually joyous

(38:39):
or experiences. And it made merealise and go, it's so true, we
need to start doing stuff thatis fun with our friends, not
just sitting there and talking.
It is like memories that you aremaking because you don't
remember the coffees or thewalks. I mean, some, some you
do, obviously, some you do. Butit's more about those

(38:59):
experiences, yes, and we juststart to because life gets in
the way. The time pressures arethere. You start to stop doing
those experiences, unless youlive so far away and you make a
day of it.

Maddie (39:13):
And I think experiences that are with your kids and
experiences that aren't alwayswith your I agree, because
you're like, whether or not it'swhen they're younger and you're
distracted by the like,practicalities of their lack of
independence, or whether or notit's like, everything that you
say in front of them then getsrepeated to everyone for the

(39:34):
next three months, yeah, like,it's like, sometimes the little
ears are helpful and sometimesthey can't be there, right? And
I absolutely, even, like you,and I probably a lot of the time
end up speaking in the car,because we've both got no little
ears around us. And it's like,okay, we can actually get really
deep, really quickly, yeah, justpractically, because the

(39:55):
circumstance allows us

to, that's it, and it's more just a blur. And.
And

no, no.

Have you ever had a proper friend breakup?

Maddie Mar (40:10):
I mean, I don't know about a breakup. I definitely
remember with one friend who canremain nameless, I think it was
after I had beau, so my secondson, and we were at the park,
and she'd made an effort to comeand see me, but I was like, in
the hot zone of like, two littlekids, and I had felt
increasingly all of ourinteractions every time was

(40:33):
like, drain, drain, drain. And Iremember the end of this
actually, probably the last timewe saw each other just going,
like, I'm really comfortableknowing that I've been drained
one too many times and so like,I probably did do more the
ghosting than I did do the cut,but that's probably as close to

(40:54):
a friendship breakup as POS asI've probably been To. But I
think it was that awareness thathad maybe Ryan's course, and I
think that that's okay. And whoknows, in 10 years time, maybe
for whatever reason, that personmight pop up in my life, and
that's okay. I mean, I thinksome people can let you down,

(41:18):
and that can be a micro letdown, or it can be like
compounded. And I thinksometimes you just need to
accept that. As harsh as thatsounds, yep and rebuild,

yep. You do seeing your work at meta. Are we
heading

Maddie Mar (41:40):
to this question was not on the list, yeah, yeah.
100%

was, are we heading for full digital
friendships or craving more

Maddie (41:48):
in real life? I mean, I think digital will never replace
the human I agree that isdefinitely not my official work.
No, no. I mean, I think in allaspects of life, whether or not
it's work, whether or not it'screativity of thought, whether
or not it's connection. I mean,the whole meta purpose is about

(42:09):
connection. It's just about whatform that connection takes.
Right. Now, do I necessarilycompletely agree with all
aspects of that? I mean,obviously enough for me to work
in a business, right? But at thesame time. I mean, I think it is
the human connection that isultimately so part of what we
need as beings. You know, liketo the quote before from Mel

(42:32):
Robbins, it's like we are socialbeings. And sure, some people
need maybe one unit of socialmaybe I need 100 right? And
that's okay, too, but it's likethat can take different forms.
And I think, like, even if Ithink about you said before,
like just sending someone amessage and just knowing that
you might not even get a reply,but it means that they know that

(42:53):
you're thinking of them, yeah.
So I think the format of yourfriendship can change. And I do
think text helped us with that,yeah. I absolutely love
messaging, because I think itmeans that people can get it and
respond in how it works forthem, but at the same time, can
your friendship purely exist onmessaging? No, probably not,
because it's pretty onedimensional. And it's also not a

(43:17):
conversation, it's not abroadcast or an update, right?
And

also in a message, there's almost 75
things that you have to respondto, and it's not like, Oh, which
one do I respond to?

Maddie M (43:25):
I mean, I'm definitely known for sending the world's
longest messages, let's behonest. But I think, I think it
is all about human connection,yeah, and I think it's about
making those moments, whether ornot it's every day or every
month or once a year, how do youreally make sure that you're
super present in those moments?

(43:47):
And I think both you and I haveprobably been through periods as
all hectic, tech obsessed peopleare where you're maybe not as
present as you want to be. Andthat, like particularly, that
was probably one of my own goalsthis year is be present in
whatever you're in right now.
Yeah, and if that's a small chatwith your kid, or a conversation
like this, or, you know, a cupof tea with my mom, or whoever

(44:11):
it's like, let that be themoment. Try not to multitask
every moment, every time. WhatDOM put your phone down. Put
your phone down sometimes.

Yeah, I think it is. It digital has definitely
helped extend the relationshipsand how you can have them. And
it gets annoying, not notannoying, but it means that,
like, if I don't talk to my nanon the phone at certain times
during the day, I can't actuallycheck in with her. So, you know,
like, it becomes difficult tohave that full relationship with

(44:47):
her if I'm just not on thephone, or if I've had stuff on
and if I could just text her,it'd be amazing, because I could
just go, Hi, how are you? Whatare you doing?

Maddie (44:56):
And I think also, like, particularly with mates who
live. Different cities or indifferent places around the
world. It's like, practically,it's amazing. But I think
nothing beats like a great hugand being in person and having a
laugh or a cry or, you know, Imean, I think, I think it's also
being there in the big and thelittle moments that matter. And

(45:18):
I think particularly, it's like,you know that does take mental
energy and capacity, but tryingto remember what's important to
the people who are mostimportant to you. Yeah, and
like, don't get me wrong, Iforgot Leighton's birthday this
year. I think it was the firsttime I've done it in 12 years. I
felt so bad, like, so bad. Butat the same time you like, most

(45:41):
of the time you're pretty great,

right? That's, yeah, it's fine, yeah. It's
like, and because I don't postit on Insta, that was really,
yeah, well, like, you know, Idon't need to share my life. You
do? Yeah, do you? Can you stillsee us doing water parks and yum
cha when we're in our 60s? No,God, I hope

Maddie M (46:00):
not. No. I mean, maybe the yum cha bit, but a more
civilised, slow version of yumcha, no, but I think that's
where the evolution offriendship comes in. You know, I
think I was talking to a matethis week about, like, look,
let's go and do a walk. Or like,what is it? How do you take to
your point the experiences andcarving out time where you get

(46:24):
really those quality moments. SoI think the how you connect
changes, and maybe partly that'sdigital, and partly that's the
memories and the experience,almost like the two polar arrays
of the spectrum, but like theformat and the content might
change, but the people whomatter remain pretty constant,

(46:45):
which is,

it's interesting. It's like, how do
you stay connected as lifechanges, as we become like
parents of teenagers, emptynesters, like, you know,
there's, there's all thosethings that do actually evolve
and

and how do you stay interested and involved in your
best mates, kids lives? Yeah,because I think that's really
important too

well. I mean, there so many research, so much
research has been done based onmaking sure that you know, after
what is it, 12 or 13, it's theother adults that are around the
kids, and they're positive rolemodels, absolutely, that have
more influence than you do overyour kids, which is, you know,
it's so important to make surethat you are actively involved

(47:31):
in their lives as well.

Maddie (47:32):
I mean, I like to think I'm a super Auntie for one of my
mates, particularly my matesgirls, and I'm like, I hope that
maybe there'll be moments whenshe's like, the really, most
feral version of teenage. Herthat, like, she, she knows that
there's, like, another safeadult yeah exam. And go, like,
Hey, I've maybe made a bit of afuck up, and I need some help.

(47:52):
Yeah? And I don't want to tellmom, and I don't want to

tell mom, yeah, yeah. Like, they do tell me
anyway, no, we'll get there.
We'll get there. Let's see. But

Maddie Mar (47:59):
she's, it's, I think it's like the chapters of life,
but the relationships that gothrough that with you, yeah? And
some of those relationships willchange, yeah, but a lot of them
are the forever friends, yeah,yeah.

And do you think there's anything about
friendship that we haven'ttouched on

Maddie M (48:22):
like, I mean, I think, I think the context piece from
you before, like, you touched onit. But I think it's that thing
of, like, everyone has their ownshit, oh, yeah. And some people
like, I mean, I am, like, theclassic open book, and you know
what mood I'm in from like, thefirst sentence, yeah, I have to
normally get, like, my word infirst before, yeah, hi, before

(48:44):
you talk. But like, other peopletake more time or more like, so
I think it's appreciating thateveryone has got their shit
going on and that sometimesyou're gonna go through periods,
particularly if, let's sayyou're going through a tough
time, right? You're gonna giveand give more, and that's okay,

(49:06):
and you have to recognise thatthat's a point in time, but
there's a context to that. And Ithink sometimes you can maybe
take something personal in afriendship in isolation, as
opposed to seeing the biggerpicture, yeah, which I think is
probably true of allrelationships.

Yeah, absolutely. You get focused on
the one thing rather than on,yeah, the bigger picture of how
that person actually is with

you and how you can help them and why you should
help them. And I think it's justit. I mean, it's, it's
ultimately about love and care,you know? I mean, I think it's
deeply caring about how yourmates feel and being prepared to
like sometimes accept that thatmight be at an inconvenient time
for what you've got going on inyour life. But actually, if

(49:54):
someone's going throughsomething really shit, they need
you. They need you, and as much.
As you would want them to bethere for you, you're going to
be there for them. Yeah, yeah.

And I think that's intro, the conditions
like that literally is aboutmaking sure it is unconditional,
rather than actually theconditions. Even though you may
be going through something inyour life, sometimes your
friends just need you at thatpoint in

Maddie M (50:18):
time. Oh, and like, if I think back, like, you know,
I'm gonna call it like, crisismoments, where you're like,
meeting a mate at like, 7am inthe freezing middle of winter
with four small kids under theage of four, and you're just
there for someone in all theugliness. Yeah, that it takes.

(50:38):
But I think that's what buildsthe empathy and the depth.

I agree it is in that ugliness or in that pain,
where friendships are actuallymade

and it is pain like life can be really painful and
hard. I mean, you and I are bothin the privileged position that
right now we've not had to gothrough, for example, the pain
of like losing a parent orgrief, whereas, obviously we've
both got mates who have gonethrough that. And I think, you
know, life is mostly hard. Andso I think it's about a, having

(51:15):
the vulnerability to share thatYeah, with your people, yeah.
And B knowing when to ask forhelp, yeah? And I think, like to
the piece on, I think you haveneeded more friendship units for
one of a better expression,probably over the last, I'd say,
even five years than the fiveyears that preceded that. Yeah.

(51:37):
And that's a good thing, yeah,you know, but it's, I think it's
okay to ask for help, and it'salso okay. Back to the mental
health piece. It's okaysometimes to say, I'm not okay.
Yep,

I agree with that. Or I do need help. I

Maddie M (51:54):
need help, and I don't know what that health looks
like, but can you help methrough the help? Yeah, and I
think, like to your question ofother different friends for
different things or fordifferent moments, everyone will
have their own version of howthey'll help you with that. Like
I still remember, and I can'tthink how old the kids were, but
I think one of the kids had someferal gastro bug, and we were in

(52:17):
our like old house, so there's apoint in time reference, but I
have no idea how old they were.
If there was one kid, two kid, Ihave no idea. And I remember
being like, Oh my God. And youwere in Watson's Bay, and you
drove over, and you left, like,some icy poles and an orchid,
which is very classic Dom, butsome icy poles and like, maybe,
like some food or something as,like a care package that you

(52:38):
literally dropped on thedoorstep. And it's stuff like
that where it's like, sometimesit's really practical help, and
other times it's like, I need toabsolutely break down and for
you to just let me go throughthat and everything else in
between. But it is those uglymoments that I do think builds
it probably builds the trust,yeah? And I think with the trust

(53:04):
is the like, deep love andrespect,

yeah? I absolutely agree with that like,
and it's, you know, they alwayssay, What in in the work, it
place, it is. It's in thetrenches that the culture is
built, yeah. But it is also sotrue that friendships are built
in the trenches as well. Yeah,deep friendships are built in
the trenches.

Maddie M (53:24):
And sometimes, like, I mean, I was laughing with a mate
last weekend about a moment, andit was probably, let's call it a
friendship fight, right? And itwas donkeys years ago. And like,
it was a pretty ugly fight. Andlike, I think we'd probably both
had too much to drink, and weprobably both said things that
we should not but we both lookback and go, it's probably what

(53:46):
defined our friendship. Yeah,it's probably like that moment
where it was so ugly that weboth realised, oh no, you are my
person. Yep, yep, you get me,you get me, you get and you get
me and you get the all of Fauci,the good version of me and the
bloody awful version of me.

Okay, Maddie, we've covered it all, the tea,
the dumplings, the I'm sure, theskiddies, the big friendship
lessons and the undeniable powerof big burp for our kids as
well. But as I edge closer to 50still in a couple of years, I
have to ask, What's one thing Ishould do for our friendship

(54:29):
before I hit the big milestone?
Something fun, somethingridiculous, something that we'll
remember forever. Oh, I mean,

I mean, I want to answer this question in so many
way. Here we go. Okay, so Ithink, like, I think it's not a
VA handbag because I don't wantone. No, no, no, it's definitely
not that. I know you better thanthat. I think, I think what I
want you to do is to have theconfidence. Us to carve out the

(55:01):
time and protect the time foryour mates, for you, yeah, and
know that that's okay. You'vegot so many people with so many
demands on your time, andeveryone who is in awe of your
awesomeness and energy, as theyshould be. That's right, but at
the same time, it's okay for youto be like, This is what I want,

(55:25):
yeah, and what I need, and I'mgonna protect that, yeah? And I
think it's, I think there shouldbe a big friendship memory as
you embark on your 50th and Ithink it's like, what is that
for you, not? What is that foryour relationship or for your
family? What is that thing thatyou want in your soul that

(55:48):
you'll look back and you go, doyou know what my core and me had
this awesome experience thatI'll never replicate before I
turn 50. You know it's backingyourself to have that

moment, the moment, yeah, okay, so there's
two in there, really, isn't it?
There's two in there, yeah?

Maddie Mar (56:09):
And one's a sort of, like, bigger behavioural thing,
and then one is like, let's justgo and do something. Yeah, fun.
Like, how we joke about going toAntarctica, but I like we're
joking. Maybe it's

not joke, yeah, it's gonna happen. Yeah, and if
anyone out there is listeningand realises their friendships
could use a little more

attention, yep, attention or intention.
Attention, yep,

just my husky voice. What's your one piece of
advice on how to be a betterfriend?

Maddie Mar (56:39):
Invest in the people that you love the most. And it
could be big, it could belittle, it can't be all the
time, but just show that youlove them and show that you
care. And that might be likesome comedy panda gift that
someone sent me this week thatreally made me laugh, or it

(57:00):
might be something really deepand meaningful, but it's like,
invest in your mates and knowthat they are the people that
you are sharing life'sincredible journey with, and
that really it's the people thatmatters, and whether or not
that's at work, with Yourfamily, with your friends, you

(57:21):
know that's what at the end oflife, when someone stands up and
reflects on your life, it's thepeople and the impact that
you've had on those peoplethat's what matters most. Yeah,

I definitely think the impact, the impact
you've had on people like Ialways try to make sure that I
leave a situation or a personbetter than what it started as.

Maddie Mar (57:51):
And sometimes that's possible, and sometimes you've
got to call the hard Yeah,right. But at the same time, I
think it's about Yeah. It's thefabric that makes your life, you
know, and there's so muchminutia and like, admin and all
that, like stuff that isessential, but when you look

(58:13):
back, it's the moments with thepeople and those little micro
moments and those really bigmoments. Yeah, that's what makes
life. Life

absolutely gives you the memories. Yeah,
experiences all about

Maddie (58:27):
the joy and experience.
It's the joy and it's about thehow do you make someone feel?
Yeah, and I think to your pointabout you always make someone
feel loved and present. Youleave your amazing,
extraordinary energy and themark on that on someone's day,
right? But at the same time, itmight be that they and that's
awesome, right? But it's like,how do you want someone to feel?

(58:53):
And I think that's the, what'sthe one thing make someone feel
a little bit better today? Yeah?
And just show that you care.
It's actually free, yeah, showthat you care. Kindness is free.
Kindness is free and a

choice to be the happy or sad and push that out
on people.

Maddie Ma (59:08):
Yep. And the more you put in, I think the more
rewarding it is. Yep, agree, andif you put it in and you don't
get it back, then you're goingto learn that pretty quickly,

after a few times,

maybe quickly, depending on how quick a learner
you are,

Maddie you are, the absolute best friendship in
midlife can be complicated. Ittakes effort. It takes showing
up, even when life is busy, andit takes finding the right
people who get you, who love youand who are there for you. If
there's one thing I'm takingfrom this chat, it's that

(59:47):
friendship Don't friendshipsdon't have to be constant to be
solid. They can come in and out,and you can invest the time or
the effort that you do have atthat point in time. Yeah. You
just need to make sure that whenyou do show up, you bring the
love, the laughter and maybeeven a giant IKEA shark. And if

(01:00:11):
you've been listening andthinking about the friends who
mean the most to you, here'syour challenge, send them a
message plan that catch up andbe the one friend that shows up.
Plan something that's differentto what you would normally do.
If you love this episode,subscribe, share it with your
best friend or whoever you needto, and come chat with me on

(01:00:34):
socials, because, let's behonest, we all need some more
hilarious, ridiculous, slightlyunhinged friendships, sharing
our stories in life, and beforeyou go take on Matty's challenge
yourself, even carve out sometime for you, or even think
about one big friendship momentthat you can plan before you're

(01:00:57):
50. Do something fun, bold, andkeep your friendships alive
because fuck we're nearly 50,and isn't it amazing? You

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