September 20, 2023 • 47 mins
Alright, today we've got a unique guest with me. It's not Nancy, my usual 'sidekick'; it's Kelsey, my massage therapist. We've been talking a lot over the past year, and I've come to realize that Kelsey has quite the story to share. So, here we are.
Kelsey's story begins with rejection, a feeling many of us can relate to in some form or another. She opens up about her early life, where rejection was a constant theme, even within her own family. Her sister's bullying and her mom's inability to connect left her feeling alone and disconnected.
But here's where it gets interesting. During her teenage years, Kelsey stumbled upon a lifeline: writing. She had a moment when she considered self-harm but chose to write instead. Writing became her escape, her way to disconnect from the negativity surrounding her.
What's remarkable is how Kelsey's ability to observe people and understand their true selves started to evolve. She began to see the facades her family members put on and realized how little they knew about her.
We dive deep into the themes of vulnerability, self-discovery, and resilience in this episode. Kelsey's journey is a testament to the inner strength that can emerge from facing rejection and adversity head-on.
We also discuss the vital importance of mental health awareness and the power of sharing one's story. Kelsey's journey is a reminder that even in our darkest moments, we can find potential for growth and resilience.
Timeline Summary:
[00:05] Rejection and disconnection from church and family.
[02:55] Rejection, bullying, and personal growth.
[08:45] Mental health, writing as therapy, and generational differences.
[13:17] Family dynamics and unresolved conflicts.
[20:06] Family dynamics and control.
[28:12] Family dynamics and personal growth.
[36:15] Parenting, trauma, and healing.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Nick (00:05):
We unintentionally gave up. Over time we let ourselves
down. We didn't teach or respectthe struggle. Our value
disappeared over time replacedwith masks disguised as truth. I
mean, our words became empty andour presence became obsolete.
(00:26):
Now we face our biggeststruggle, and it's time to rip
the masks off. More than ever,it's time to return to our true
selves, our real identity, it'stime to be fucking authentic.
Okay, guess what, for everybodyout there who knows that usually
(00:48):
my sidekick is with me, which isNancy. I have a different
sidekick with me today. Kelsey,what's going on?
Unknown (00:56):
Not much. How are you doing?
Nick (00:58):
I'm doing good. So Kelsey is my massage therapist. And
that's where I'm at today. We'vebeen doing this now for a little
over a year. So I thought, wow,you know what? We've been
talking all that time. You got abit of a story? Oh, yeah. Sure.
Let's tell it. So that's whatwe're doing.
Unknown (01:15):
All right. Let's get to it. Let's
Nick (01:16):
get to it. So we talked about rejection, right. And then
we also talked a little bitabout the disconnect from
church, not just from church.
But even as you're growingolder. Now. You met Andy, and
you had your oldest and he'ssort of off in the military. You
feel trapped at that point.
Unknown (01:39):
At that point in time?
Oh, definitely. I hadn't likenowhere to go. Because our
original plan mine and Andy'soriginal plan. When we were
pregnant with our oldest was hewas going to school for nursing.
So Oh, really? Yeah. So he was,yeah, he was going to school for
nursing. But his best friendalways wanted to go into the
(01:59):
army. And so he went with himwhen he went to like the
recruitment office and signedup. And I even told them like,
Hey, don't fall for it. They'regoing to try to get recruit you
too. And
Nick (02:15):
you just didn't want to Yeah, you're like, you ain't
going nowhere.
Unknown (02:18):
No, I was like, don't.
I was like, don't fall for it.
And like they're gettingsprinkled, all these pretty
little promises and all thesethings that they're not going to
be able to keep whatever I'mlike, Just promise me you won't
sign up. And he said, Okay,yeah. And so he went with his
friend to support him as he wassigning up. And then at the
time, I think I was about sixmonths pregnant or so. And he
(02:41):
just comes home one day, fromschool, we're in college. And he
goes, Oh, hey, by the way, Isigned up for the Army Today.
And I was in the middle of like,writing like, Oh, hey, by the
way, yeah, literally just like,hey, by the way, our whole
Nick (02:55):
lives are gonna change.
Yeah, exactly. I
Unknown (02:57):
literally dropped my pencil. And I looked up at him.
And I was like, I'm sorry, runthat by me one more time. Oh, I
was livid. I was like, Excuseme, after I specifically said,
don't get sucked into it, youget sucked into it. And then he
ended up having to drop out ofthe nursing program, because you
(03:19):
could only miss two days. It wasan accelerated fast paced
program. And he was doing reallywell. But you can only miss two
days. And because of militaryshit, yeah, the signing up and
everything. He was going to missthree or four days. And so they
said you can't have to drop.
Nick (03:38):
Well, he would have Ultimately though, had to drop
it anyway, right? Because ofgoing in or they would have
Unknown (03:44):
I mean, potentially.
But the point is, he wasn'tsupposed to be military.
Nick (03:50):
Don't go change the subject. So the point is, I told
him not to fucking do this. Andhe did it anyway. Yeah.
Unknown (03:56):
Because the plan was good. Yeah. So he did. Yeah. So
like, like, yeah, the plan washe did the program. He went to
become a nurse, because he couldhave started working as like a
CNA or something. Along thoselines. Were right after the
program. Yeah. So he could havebeen making decent money ish
(04:17):
while he continued going toschool for nursing. And then I
was going to move in with him atthe duplex. Yeah, his family was
in a duplex house. And he theywere upstairs. So we were going
to be upstairs. Like everyoneelse was downstairs. And so that
that was the plan. And then whenhe came in and said that he
(04:37):
signed up for the military, likeour entire plan just got flushed
down the toilet.
Nick (04:42):
Well, this is a whole new sort of Revelation. I mean, for
me right? Now, I'm just likesaying, well, Holy fuck, I mean,
you've, I don't know if yourealize it, you've been able to
go through some changes. No,seriously, right. I mean, if you
think about it, you've enabledgo through some changes. I mean,
of course, this is now afterthat, let's say 13 years after
(05:06):
that fact. Right? And you'restill going through those
changes. We're sitting here,right? You're pregnant with your
fourth. Yep. Andy right now isstill you guys are moving into
another change, right? That'scoming up. Yeah, things are
always evolving, right? That'slife period. It's not like, Oh,
my God, this is some fucking newthing. And life is always
(05:28):
changing. But don't you thinkit's pretty fucking cool that
even after growing up andfeeling rejection, because we
could talk about rejection for asecond because rejection is
huge. Yeah, let's be real honestabout that. I mean, rejection is
a terrible feeling. We knowPerception is everything. Right?
(05:51):
So as a child, your mom couldhave been like, Oh, it's just a
kid, blah, blah, blah. But yourfeelings were feelings of being
rejected. You didn't know thatat the time, you just knew that
someone wasn't paying attentionto you. Now you have, you know,
a word context of what that is.
But I find it interesting thatyou felt that way. And here you
(06:12):
are today. Still going througheverything that you went through
with those feelings, becausethen that that stays with you,
right, that season two, whichyou Oh, my God, this stays with
you. It stays with you,throughout your adult life.
Obviously, then we talked aboutas you started to go on, in your
(06:35):
early 20s, or whatever, even 19or 20, you started that really
that disconnect, and you startedto move towards whatever you
want to call it. Enlightenmentare really learning about things
on your own and really going outand trying to figure stuff out.
(06:55):
So what do you think thecorrelation between the like the
rejection, and your search todisconnect? Right? Because if
you feel rejected all thoseyears, then you almost feel
alone?
Unknown (07:16):
Oh, yeah, most definitely. I did. And I, in my
early teens, seventh grade was areally bad year, because I was
at a private school. And seventhand eighth grade combined. My
sister was in eighth grade, Iwas in seventh. And so that was
really hard, because she was mybully, both in school and at
(07:39):
home. So I never got a reprieve.
And of course, at school, shewas kind of like the leader of
everybody of her class. So likeit kind of. So that's it. And
then it's just like, I was alonecompletely. For eighth grade,
completely alone. Like I hadnobody. On my side, you
Nick (08:01):
realize what you just said, like, you just said that
your sister was both your bullyat home and at school. So on one
hand, you're feeling rejected?
Yeah. And then on the otherhand, the only acknowledgement,
or anything that's being paidattention, you is being like
bullied. And of
Unknown (08:22):
course, she knows all of my weaknesses and all of my
insecurities, which she usesagainst me in front of everybody
else. At school.
Nick (08:32):
Yeah, so hard. So we have a real pretty fucked up dynamic
here, right? Oh, you're you feelcompletely rejected. But yet,
the only kind of attentionyou're getting is being
ridiculed and bullied.
Unknown (08:45):
I actually drew this picture in seventh grade, where
it's like all black. And thenthere was a heart in the middle
and two hands, breaking theheart in half, like literally
cracking it like a cookie,breaking it. It was literally my
nonverbal cry for help. Like,obviously, something is wrong.
And I show the picture to mymom, and she literally glances
(09:10):
at it. It was like during acommercial for between a
Lifetime movie she was watching.
So not even important. It's acommercial.
Nick (09:17):
Yeah, well, it's a Lifetime movie. That's not
important, either.
Unknown (09:20):
I know. But it was a commercial. And so I show her my
picture. thinking maybe this isgoing to trigger her and be
like, hey, something's notright. She glances at the
pictures goes, Oh, that's niceand goes right back to watching
the commercial.
Nick (09:36):
But then I mean, then now as an adult, we know that was
probably to be expected, becausethere was really not that
connection there. Oh, correct tobegin with,
Unknown (09:45):
but again, as a kid, I'm 13 at the time did you
Nick (09:48):
realize when you drew that picture? Did you know what that
meant?
Unknown (09:53):
Oh, for sure. Because right after that, I stood in the
hallway with a handful ofTylenol in my hand. I was kind
of It took the entire bottle. Iliterally sat there like my mom,
the living room was like rightaround the corner. My mom was
literally sitting like, fivefeet away from me. And I'm in
the hallway and higher bottles,Extra Strength Tylenol in my
(10:17):
head, like poured it out allinto my hand. And I literally
contemplated going walking intothe kitchen, getting a glass of
water and drinking and takingall of it. Because I was like, I
just like hurt, like, I had justhad this feeling and this, like,
urge to write instead. And so Iput them all back. I went
(10:39):
upstairs, and I got a blanknotebook, and I started writing.
So literally writing saved mylife. And that's how I started
writing. Wow, yeah,
Nick (10:50):
that's pretty fucked up. I mean, it's fucked up a cool at
the same time, right? I mean,seriously, right? I know. This
is very serious. I mean, butthat's, it's fucked up. But it's
also life saving, right? It'ssomething that's it's, it's
funny that you said that. AndI'm not trying to interject
myself here. But I canunderstand. I think when we
(11:13):
first met, I told you firstabout the poetry. Yeah. Because
when the estrangement happenedwith our son, I didn't even know
I knew how to write like that.
And that's what started tohappen. And I came up. And I
mean, it just came to me. Yeah,just happened. It was so deep
inside, it was weird. It waslike your body and your soul
knows what you need. If you canjust get past that terrible
(11:36):
feeling of pain or anxiety, orloneliness, or whatever. That's
pretty amazing. That happenedlike that. Wow. Sir, I don't
mean to laugh. But I sit here,across from someone who I'm
almost twice as old as I thinkof today. And I think of all
these words, triggered and wokeand vulnerable, and trauma and
(12:00):
all this shit, I understand it.
Right? I understand everygeneration uses words and things
to describe and do whatever. Buthere, I'm saying right now that
it's pretty cool that you're,you know, allowing yourself to
be vulnerable, to say somethinglike that, because that takes a
(12:22):
lot of courage to say that,because people see that act a
lot as an act of weakness. Fuckthem. But I'm glad you're able
to share that. So with thatbeing said, which brings up even
like, now my fucking head isgoing crazy. And we can probably
(12:46):
talk now for like, 10 hours, butso. So you're at the point of
feeling that you really don'twant to be around anymore. And
then, you know, you get intothis writing, which is fucking
awesome. And I think a lot ofpeople can relate to that. Which
is really pretty cool. It'smakes a lot of sense, right?
(13:06):
Because if you begin writing,then you begin writing what's in
your head, which then reallybegins to disconnect, and almost
puts you into a different worldthan
Unknown (13:17):
Oh, for sure. Like, that's definitely around the
time when I was reallydisconnecting from my family.
Because I even felt alone, whenwe had like family dinners and
stuff. So like it would be everyThursday night. Like my grandma,
my brother, my sister in lawwould all come over for dinner
(13:37):
and dessert. And I just rememberalways, I was always sitting
there quietly, like, I neverreally talked, or if I did, it
was just like, I just wouldslide it in, and it was quiet.
Nobody heard it, maybe my sisterin law did. But she was just
like, Oh my God, you'rehilarious. In true Kelsey
fashion, she would say thingslike that. But I didn't really
(14:01):
have a connection with anybodyin my family, because that's
when I started to realize howthey were how each person was,
like, how they were truly andhow and what they portrayed, and
what they believed aboutthemselves. And so I was just
like, Man, this is kind of abunch of bullshit.
Nick (14:20):
So you started to see that early on, you sort of had that
ability to sort of see thatearly on. Yep. And I mean, was
that each person because of anegative way they treated you or
just it was just you at acertain level, just looking at
everything as a whole
Unknown (14:41):
kind of both? Yeah.
Started with the how I wasalways kind of overlooked. And
how I was never really paidattention to everyone always
talked over me. I would, I wouldtry to say something. And
immediately somebody else wouldjump in and like steal my
thunder and talk over me and soI'm just like, wow, no one
really even And no one in myfamily even cares what I have to
say or wants to hear me. And sothen after that, I was just
(15:04):
like, learn to be quiet, say mythoughts in my head and not
really interact or say anythingwith anybody. And then that's
when I started being like, justwatching and observing how they
were sure you became anobserver, right? So then that's
how it started with me and justbe like, Man, they don't care
about me at all. And then kindof just seeing how they were
(15:27):
really as people.
Nick (15:30):
Do. This is just so fucking cool to me, because I
know how you are now. Right? Ididn't know you then. But I know
how you are now. And I know thatyou're a very caring person. And
I know that you realize thateach individual person, if
you've been reading people fromsince then, you then have to be
(15:52):
reading people all the time.
Right? Yeah. Because that's justwho you are. Yeah. But no matter
what, this is just blows meaway, right? Because this now
comes to sort of like my otherquestion. And what I really want
to talk about is like, eventhough you can read people, and
these people have rejected you,and you felt lonely, and you got
that out in your writing, andthat was awesome that you had an
(16:15):
avenue and a way to expressyourself through your writing.
Unknown (16:22):
You still
Nick (16:25):
continued relationships with these people. And that's
what blows me away too. Because
Unknown (16:32):
at 13 I had no, well, no,
Nick (16:35):
we're saying we know what, 13 that's when it started. But I
mean, you're 30 now? Well, yeah,it's true. Now. I'm sorry. I
didn't know. I shouldn't sayyou're totally fine. Yeah, I
know. I know how you. Okay. Butwhat I'm saying is, I know that
it's 12 years later, or 13 yearslater. Well, I'm saying since
(16:56):
13. So it's 17 years later.
Yeah. But we've had someconversations, right. So it's
not like you have the best. AndI'm air quotations here. Right.
Yeah. relationship with yourmom. Correct. We just know it
can be tumultuous at times. Hasany of this ever been like,
settled? Oh, no.
Unknown (17:20):
I've tried several times over the years. I know
we've talked about I don't knowif we've discussed on the last
one. But how? I always have tohave witnesses. Yeah. Talked
about it. Yeah. Okay. Yes. Someof those. We've touched on how
it felt when she was helping outwith Cora, my oldest when she
was a baby and infant. And Iliterally had nowhere else to
(17:42):
go. I had to stay at my parentshouse. Because Andy kind of
fucked us up in that way. Yeah.
There's still some trauma there.
But yeah, so we all sat down allfour of us, my husband, me, my
dad and my mom. Yeah. And wekind of tried talking about how
she was constantly overstepping,and wasn't helping us learn. She
(18:05):
was just trying, she was justdoing things for us instead,
like, I if I got somethingwrong, immediately, she would
like push me aside, be like, No,I got it. I got it. Like she
would do it instead with thebaby. And so I started to feel
like when I was a terriblemother, and that she felt she
could raise her better than methat she was trying to take her
like away from me, like all ofthose feelings. And so we tried
(18:28):
talking about it, and trying totell her like, Hey, this is how
we were feeling that, you know,we've been trying to kind of
find our places, parents andwhat works for us. But then you
constantly overstep andinterject and just take over.
Yeah. And she immediately gotdefensive about it. And he was
like, You need my help, didn'tyou? Didn't you? When, when he
(18:53):
was gone, he wasn't here andlike, fall all back on, like the
fact that he was gone. And hewasn't here for the first eight
months. And I'm like, Well, yes,I needed help. But I needed help
learning. I didn't need you totake over. Because I was
actually the baby of the family.
So I had no experience with baitwith infants at all, of course,
because you were young at theend. Yeah. So we were 19 when
(19:14):
she was when our oldest wasborn. So it literally no
experience he had experiencedbecause he has younger brothers,
who he kind of had to help raisewhich was another reason why I
was kind of pod left me. But youknow, I'm sure he has his own
trauma around that. That wholeconversation just did not go
(19:36):
over very well. Because ofcourse she got defensive and
turned it around. So she's thevictim and put all the blame on
like Andy or me. And all thisstuff worked. Yeah, deflect.
Yes. And so then it just kind ofends up getting swept under the
rug. And whoever the argument isbut they ended up having to
(19:59):
apologize to my mom for hurtingher feelings when the
conversation started. Yeah, howyour feelings were hurt
Nick (20:06):
that that victim mentality. So it really goes, it
really makes sense, though. Nowif you think about it, because
I'm just listening, right? Andif she must have been, well, she
was the same way then throughoutyour whole life. Yeah. Because
if you were rejected, that meansthat she sort of had to be the
(20:28):
center of attention all thetime. Right. And so it just
stands to reason, right? To meanyway, I don't know, I'm not a
therapist. I'm just thinking inmy head like that. So it makes
sense. So man, so we have allthis going on. Still, at the
core of this. You allow Your momto be part of your life and your
(20:52):
child's your your girls lives,and you allow your daughters to
be part of your mom's life. Andthat, to me, goes to show the
person that you are right now,that doesn't mean that's
necessarily a good thing. Imean, in terms of your sanity,
(21:16):
you need to think about yourselfas well. But I think what it
does, this goes to the wholehuman aspect of things. You
realize there should be no guilton your part. 100 Fucking
percent we know that. You knowthat. Right? Okay. No, I'm just
saying like, I'm just I meanthat seriously. Right? Yeah,
that shows just to the characterthat you have, you realize that
(21:40):
the problems that you have arewith your mother, not
necessarily with your daughterswith your mother, right? And of
course, you're going to be themom, and you're going to protect
them. And if you see thatanything is out of fucking
bounds. Yep.
Unknown (21:55):
I have put my foot down on many occasions. Yeah, I got
into into little arguments withmy dad, my mom, my sister, over
there bounce over my kidsboundaries. You know, an hour
you set? Yes, that,
Nick (22:08):
which is totally fair.
Yeah. Obviously, you feel atthis point, let's just say
that's adequate enough. Do youthink it was ever a control
issue? And I know, we sayboundaries, that's another one
of those sort of millennialwords, do you feel good enough
that this has put you in controlof the situation where as a
child, you're not in control,and you're rejected, and
(22:30):
whatever, now, you sort of havethat control,
Unknown (22:34):
you don't kind of get to pick and choose when she
comes around, when she's around.
Part of the reason why therelationship has stayed, was
because I was working. But wecouldn't afford childcare, both
of us were working, me and Andywere both working. But we
couldn't afford childcare,because childcare is hella
(22:54):
expensive. And my mom wouldwatch them for free. So it kind
of progressed to Well, I needyou for free childcare. And so
that's kind of how she stayedin. And then I didn't stop
working, we didn't manage to beable to like, have me stop
working. Until COVID COVID hit,I stopped working, Andy was
(23:18):
still considered a mandatorywhatever. So he was still able
to work, which was nice. Plus,you know, he kind of hit it very
well with the stock market. Soshe made some good choices
there. So we were able to haveme stop going to work. And it
also it was really nice, havingto quarantine and stay away from
me. I'm not gonna lie. That waskind of great. And it kind of
(23:41):
also made me realize that I waslike, maybe I don't need you as
much as I thought I did. And sonow that I'm only working
occasionally in like, out of thehouse, I mostly work either when
they're in school, or they'realready in bed, so I don't
really read her. So I try to beas careful as I can about
(24:02):
appointments that I select, totry and make sure that I don't
need her as much. Because I dofind that if it's been a week or
two weeks without seeing her,then I can handle her better.
When I see her. Yeah, justbecause she does and her
mannerisms and the way shespeaks and the way things
(24:23):
because she thinks she's a goodperson. She thinks she's great.
Sure. And I'm like, but like youdon't know who you really are.
Like and so like sometimes thatlike is annoying to me. It
frustrates me because I'm like,Okay, I can't handle this right
now because you like some of thestuff she says I'm just like, Oh
my god. So do you feel trapped?
(24:46):
Essentially, yeah, in somerespects. Definitely. It feels
like I can't withdraw from myfamily completely. Cool.
Nick (24:55):
Okay, so there's Yeah, so there's, oh my god, there's a
ton of shit Have Yes. Yeah. Andthe reason why I say that is
because for those who havelistened to this podcast,
especially when this is going toair, they would have heard what
happened to our son. Yeah. Andit it sounds almost identical.
(25:18):
It doesn't really. So you'rereally helping me. Yeah. Cuz
he's, I appreciate you becauseyou're really helping me to
learn and understand. And Ithink the Dine, I think the
dynamic might be a littledifferent, but not really. So
when I asked the question, andespecially when I say about
(25:39):
control, and that kind of stuff,I feel that we controlled our
son's life. No doubt, we weretold we gave him too much. We
didn't let them fail. But on theflip side, he said it would be
easier if we were dead. And inthat kind of stuff, and we
didn't understand that at first.
And I understand it's because wedidn't give him a voice and all
(26:01):
these things right now. Again,listening to you feeling
rejected, whatever, there is noway my son felt rejected.
Because we gave him too much andpay too much attention. And we
didn't let them fail. And wedidn't give him a voice because
we were always making decisionsfor him. And we were so it's a
little different, doesn't knowwho he is. But he, this is so
(26:24):
fucking awesome. Because this isalmost like you're interviewing
me now. Right? Because thismakes a lot of sense. Because
you're saying that a buddy ofmine called me the other day,
and we were talking and he hadlistened to a few of the
podcasts a guy grew up in in thecold. He said, man, he goes,
Nick, because he knows about myson. And he said, Nick, I think
(26:48):
your son is just trying to behis own man. And I get that. I
know, that's important. And it'snot just about being a man, here
I am sitting with you. You'redefinitely not a man. And you're
saying the same thing. Andyou're the same age,
essentially. And this is part ofwhy Nancy and I are doing what
(27:12):
we're doing. And I talk to youabout this, about crossing that
gap between kids and theirparents and trying to really
understand and really tellparents, man, look, these are
your kids. And these are humanbeings, and they do have a lot
(27:32):
of legitimacy to the way thatthey're feeling in their
emotions. Now, I'll also go backand say that I feel that a lot
of those emotions and feelingsare feelings that we've put in
ourselves. Right, and some ofthem are real. I'm not saying
that we don't have feelings andemotions. But I'm saying that we
(27:54):
think of things worse than whatthey are sometimes. Yeah,
definitely. But that doesn'tnegate Exactly, yep. Yeah. And
so when you're saying this, tome, it's really blowing me away.
What if your mom was to say toyou,
Unknown (28:12):
Kelsey,
Nick (28:14):
I realized that, that I've done some stupid shit. I hate
playing the victim. I don't wantto do this anymore. I just want
to be part of your lives withoutany kind of sort of animosity or
whatever going on. Let's workthis out. What is it going to
take for you to work this out?
What how would you respond toyour mom with that?
Unknown (28:36):
I would well, one, I would ask her how she came to
that conclusion. I would ask herHave you been? Have you been in
therapy? Or how did you comeacross this revelation? But
Nick (28:46):
does that at the end of the day? Does that really
matter?
Unknown (28:51):
I think in order for us to actually work through our
stuff, we need a mediator. Weneed an outsider, we need a Fair
party. Because I just know fromexperience that trying to talk
to her about how I'm feeling italways flips around to I'm the
villain. She's the victim. Andnow I have to apologize to her.
Nick (29:12):
But just the fact that she's coming to you and saying,
I've heard you I hear that Iknow before before it's whatever
and that that's in the past. Butwould you do that without any
kind of prerequisites? I mean, Ishouldn't say that. I shouldn't
(29:33):
say I shouldn't. I'm gettingback to like these words,
boundaries and right you would,I know that you've been hurt.
And I get that because I knowhow I was raised. I don't know
that because I'm at I've livedanother 24 years that I realize
certain things where I'm at inmy life. So we're all in our own
(29:55):
spaces, right. And I get thatand I totally respect that. So
His answer now could be atotally different way. 20 years.
Yeah, but you know what I'msaying. So I get that. So that's
not fair for me to even saythat, to be honest with you. I'm
wondering, because for us, thatwas the first thing I said,
right after our argument hadhappened. I said, Let's go get
(30:19):
some help. Like, whatever ittakes, like I. I'm not. I'm a
proud man, but I'm not a dumbman. Right? You know what I'm
saying? Like you up on it? No.
Oh, see? He said completelythat? No, he's not ready for
that. That wouldn't work. Thisis his problem. And he has to
figure it out.
Unknown (30:38):
Okay. For me, being roughly the same age as your
son. That kind of just sounds tome like he has no identity. And
he's trying to figure out hisidentity before he can even work
through such problems. Oh, man,again. Yeah. Yeah. So that kind
of makes sense. We're in fromhis point of view, like I he's
like, I don't, I didn't have avoice growing up. I don't know
(31:00):
who I am. Without you, makingchoices for me. So to him, You
saying let's go get help wasprobably triggered him saying
you're trying to make anotherchoice for me. See what I'm
saying? Yeah, no,
Nick (31:13):
I didn't even think of it that way. Trying to control me.
Yeah. Like, that's another oneof those fucking millennial
words. Triggered shit.
Unknown (31:20):
Yeah, that's probably the least that's my take on
that. Maybe once he worksthrough some stuff on his own,
and kind of comes into his ownbeing and realizes who he is as
a person. And he has his ownidentity, and doesn't mimic you
as a person, you know what Imean? Then maybe he would be
ready for therapy, because hewould know who he is, instead of
(31:43):
just trying to
Nick (31:44):
be what you want. Yeah.
See, I know who I am.
Unknown (31:49):
My mom came to me and said that let's go get help.
Let's work through our problems.
I would say, Yeah, let's go.
Let's go to therapy. Let's workit out. Because I know who I am
as a person.
Nick (32:01):
And I get that and you want to know that she's willing
to accept you where you're at.
Exactly. And I mean, you knowwhat, it's funny because the
conversation with him. He didkeep saying you guys raised me
right. It wasn't all that bad.
It this is just me, this is justme. Some of the things that were
said, that doesn't make sense.
But you know, obviouslybeginning to understand more
(32:22):
about that. And that's awesome.
I love this. I love havingconversations with you, because
you're pretty deep, and I canreally get deep. Yeah, well,
because we're being honest. AndI'm proud, but I'm not like I
said I'm not stupid. Okay, notabout me. Done. But thank you,
because that's fuckingincredible. You would accept it,
(32:44):
obviously, your mom and so whatdo you think would be like one
thing? That so we're gonna I'mgonna put you on the spot.
What's one thing that you'd loveto tell your mom? Just one that
you've never said before to her?
Unknown (33:08):
You really?
Nick (33:10):
Right, your face is turning red. It's the color of
your hair now. I didn't thinkI'd ever almost get to see you
speechless. Yeah, huh. Okay, um,is there something that's
really,
Unknown (33:24):
I think what I would want to say would be, you know,
I really want you to see me. Andto actually like me, for me.
Growing up, I didn't feel like Icould truly be who I was
becoming. So like, I like now, Ididn't discover a lot of this
(33:46):
stuff until after Andy and Istarted dating when I was 17. So
I started playing like magic,and wow, and D and like, all
these fantasy type things that Iabsolutely, like, loved. So I
started to find my crew, mypeople in that realm. Whereas
(34:07):
when I was younger, I never feltlike I could tap into that, you
know, I mean, because in school,there was this kid who really
was into this anime show calledNaruto. And he, I mean, he owned
it, like he would come with theheadband thing on his head to
school, whatever. But everyonewas like, Oh my God, he's such a
(34:30):
total like he was ridiculed byeveryone in the school. And I
was just like, and me on theflip side, seeing that I was
just like, man, he's so securein who he is, at this point.
Like, he doesn't care. And we'rein seventh grade eighth grade.
Nick (34:45):
Especially though kids are just so mean.
Unknown (34:47):
So I'm like, I had mad respect for him. I never would
have killed him at all because Iwas like, no up you like you I'm
too afraid at this point in timeto be myself and to like what I
like And also, there is likethis stigma a little bit. And
like the air quote nerdcommunity, because even like,
(35:11):
Andy's friends would be like,you're too pretty. You're too
attractive to like this stuff.
You're too like the fuck itreally?
Nick (35:19):
So what was that have to do exactly
Unknown (35:21):
what does that have to do with liking to play WoW or me
liking to play Magic or all thisquote unquote nerdy stuff? I'm
just like, that's such bullshit.
So then again, it felt like Iwas being ridiculed and almost
like, rejected because you don'tlook the part. Yeah. And I was
just like the Drupal like I'mtrying to branch out here. So it
was just like I couldn't ever bethat I couldn't ever be accepted
(35:43):
by like, by my family at all.
And even when I was trying tofigure out what I wanted to do
in college and stuff I hadoriginally wanted to go into
acting and things like that inhigh school. And that was
completely like No, from myparents, because my dad
(36:08):
essentially said that if I wasan actress, that I would be a
horse that I had to
Nick (36:15):
last fucking stereotypes of everything that I
Unknown (36:18):
would have to sleep around in order to get roles.
And I was like, wow, okay. AndI'm 14. And like, you're really
saying this to a 14 year old. Heliterally said, I would have to
be a horror because I would haveto sleep around to get roles.
Like there's word for word, buthe said, I was like, but then on
the flip side, so I was alsogaslighted. Because then on the
(36:40):
flip side, he would tell me, Ihave such a great memory. And I
should be an actress.
Nick (36:45):
Yeah. So there's, like, yeah, man back, okay.
Unknown (36:49):
So then I was like, Okay, I can't do that. Because
then when I was older, I evensaid, Well, if you're gonna live
here and go to college, it hasto be something practical.
Acting is not practical. Youcan't go for acting. So I
changed it to writing. And theywere like, still not practical,
but better. I still had to payfor all of my own college
(37:13):
education, whereas they paid forhalf of my sister's cosmetology
school,
Nick (37:18):
I will just tell you that on behalf of all motherfuckers,
who have kids in their 30s, Iapologize for my generation of
ignorance. And I think it'sfunny, because I'm not going to
(37:39):
I'll go down this road for asecond, I'm not also going to
blame them for playing a role towhat they were taught you, as a
parent are doing the best thatyou can right now to raise your
kids. For what you know. Yeah.
100%. Yeah. And I wouldn't doubtthat unless there is like really
(38:01):
major abuse and whatever goingon, and I'm not saying emotional
itself is not abuse at all,because it is yes. But I'm
saying that there's reallyoutward abuse, you know, what I
mean? And most parents that asan excuse for the way that I
raised my son, or the way yourparents raised you, or I'm
saying this coming from a mom,who raised me in a cult, and
(38:26):
physically and emotionallyabused me. And I can sit here
and forgive her for that. Right?
Because I realized where I'm atright now, going through what
I'm going through with my son,that as a parent, we do
(38:48):
honestly, do the best we canwith what we know, or what our
belief system is, or whatever atthe time, correct? Doesn't mean
it's right. Right? Yeah. No, theintention is the best intention,
right? But the best intention isnot always correct. Or right, I
(39:09):
should say,
Unknown (39:11):
I get you. And I guess then that kind of leads into
back again to why I still amallowing no no relationship on
her and my kids is because Irealized a long time ago, how
she is who she is. And I've kindof come to the realization that
she has little very little, ifany self awareness. So I'm like,
(39:38):
it's never going to change.
She'll always be this waybecause she doesn't want to
change she doesn't want to lookwithin she doesn't want to
realize how she is and that'sokay. Because some of like,
there might be some really deepdark shit in there that she's,
you know, writing Yeah, so I'mlike, I don't blame her have
come to that realization. Jen,and I kind of weigh the pros and
(40:00):
cons. She is a complete 180 withmy kids than she was with me.
See? Yeah, so she's really calm.
She's patient. She doesn't likereally raise her voice.
Obviously, she never hits them.
It would be completelydifferent. If she did I would be
(40:21):
hell no, we're out here by,again, complete 180 from how I
was treated, she pays attentionto them. She actually gets to
know them. She accepts them in away that she never accepted me.
Which is why I still allow itbecause in a way, her
relationship with them is good.
(40:44):
Well, it's her relationship withthem has nothing to do with me.
So it's like, it sucks. It does.
Because you're,
Nick (40:52):
yeah, you just said it, right? Like, your mom,
Unknown (40:55):
I do. In that's do. And so I see her doing this for my
kids. And I just kind ofrealized it's never going to be
me. Which does suck, but I'vekind of come to that conclusion
does suck. It does suck. Itdoes. But I have other people
now.
Nick (41:11):
So I just want you to know, that's what I was gonna
say that.
Unknown (41:17):
Look where you're at?
Yeah, yep.
Nick (41:20):
This is why you do what you do, right? This is why
you're people's healers. You'retheir healer. You sit there and
you do something for people thatis, is healing them in a sense.
That's part of you. Not beingaccepted. And that can be up to
(41:43):
you as well. Right? I mean, youhave to still take care of
yourself. It can't always be yougiving
Unknown (41:51):
out? Correct because otherwise, I if I'm not full?
You have nothing to give. Yes.
But yeah, so that's why selfcare is important. I think I've
mentioned before, too, that thesaying in the massage therapy
community is that massagetherapists become such
therapists to heal somethingbroken in themselves while
healing others.
Nick (42:14):
Well, I believe that I believe that for massage
therapists. I believe that forspiritual healers, I believe
that for coaches, I believe thatfor most, a lot of the
psychology and field. This isvery therapeutic for me. That's
awesome. Like, I'm here, I'm noteven a fucking therapist.
Unknown (42:35):
I'm like, I'll keep going.
Nick (42:35):
I'll give you a bill. Next massage on you. Let me ask you,
then there's a young woman, ayoung girl, a mom, anybody out
there? A woman who is completelyfeels rejected? What do you tell
(42:59):
them?
Unknown (43:01):
I tell them to find who they are first. Because then
once they know who they are,they can find their people. And
just like, say the price ofwater changes on the location
where it's at. If you feelworthless, where you're at,
(43:24):
might just be in the wronglocation. So you might just have
to find a different, differentpeople different job different,
something different, you justnot with the right in the right
place. Yeah, is your worthchanges depending like water
your worth is or decreasesdepending on where you're at
(43:44):
agree with. Sure. And also toknow your own worth. Because
once you know your own worth,and you accept yourself, then
you can start healing the childand you that feels rejected. If
you can, like reparent, yourinner child and it really accept
yourself. And then you can findyour people that will accept
(44:07):
you. But you have to know whoyou are first, in order to find
the people that will accept you.
Nick (44:12):
And for the young girl teenager who's there who still
is under sort of their parent'scontrol or rule who might be
sitting there contemplating thesame thing you were
contemplating. It would be hardfor them to be understood. Right
(44:35):
still. Yeah. And I know this isdifficult right now. I know.
It's difficult. This is a veryserious issue. But what do you
think then? And I know you hadan outlet, right? What would you
say to them?
Unknown (44:49):
To the early teens or preteens? I mean, I would say to
find your outlet if they don'treally quite know what it is yet
whether it's try differentthings. Try drawing what you're
feeling. Try Writing what you'refeeling I hear running is great
for clearing the mind. I haterunning personally, but any kind
of outlet that's healthy,obviously, I would not condone
(45:14):
smoking or drinking at thatyoung age bowl at any time to
cope, because that's nothealthy. Music can be very
healing, whether it'stherapeutic for sure, yeah,
whether you're listening toinstrumental metal music, or
soft jazz, or whatever it is,find something that has meaning
(45:34):
for what you're going throughthat helps you feel understood
and accepted. And then it'smakes it that much easier. I
feel like when you findsomething that makes you feel
understood,
Nick (45:46):
and I would add to that, and this is just for me, the
pain that I've gone through, isthat it does, and you just got
to go through it, go through it.
And keep going.
Unknown (46:02):
Suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem.
Absolutely. But when you're thatyoung, you can't see the big
picture. You're just you'restuck in the hearing now and in
drowning in the emotion thatyou're feeling. Yeah, that's
trying to find your life raft.
Nick (46:21):
Yeah, I just yeah, let them know that they just keep
going. Yeah, everything istemporary. Yeah, everything's
temporary. Yeah. Yes, keep
Unknown (46:28):
trucking. keep trucking. Yeah, find your
outlet. Well, dude,
Nick (46:33):
I think we hit a stride and I'm really happy that we
were able to talk about thesethings that matter. And I
appreciate your insight. Thatwas awesome. And now I'm going
to be sitting on that massagetable. And you're gonna be like,
hurting me like usual. And I'mgonna be like, but you gave me
(46:55):
such good advice. How can you besuch a sadistic, insane, crazy
woman.
Unknown (47:02):
Everyone has to have an outlet. Yeah, well, you're
right. That's the truth.
Nick (47:08):
All right. Well, I do honestly appreciate it. We'll
see you soon. Bye.
We unintentionally gave up. Over time we let ourselves
down. We didn't teach or respectthe struggle. Our value
disappeared over time replacedwith masks disguised as truth. I
mean, our words became empty andour presence became obsolete.
(00:26):
Now we face our biggeststruggle, and it's time to rip
the masks off. More than ever,it's time to return to our true
selves, our real identity, it'stime to be fucking authentic.
Okay, guess what, for everybodyout there who knows that usually
(00:48):
my sidekick is with me, which isNancy. I have a different
sidekick with me today. Kelsey,what's going on?
Unknown (00:56):
Not much. How are you doing?
Nick (00:58):
I'm doing good. So Kelsey is my massage therapist. And
that's where I'm at today. We'vebeen doing this now for a little
over a year. So I thought, wow,you know what? We've been
talking all that time. You got abit of a story? Oh, yeah. Sure.
Let's tell it. So that's whatwe're doing.
Unknown (01:15):
All right. Let's get to it. Let's
Nick (01:16):
get to it. So we talked about rejection, right. And then
we also talked a little bitabout the disconnect from
church, not just from church.
But even as you're growingolder. Now. You met Andy, and
you had your oldest and he'ssort of off in the military. You
feel trapped at that point.
Unknown (01:39):
At that point in time?
Oh, definitely. I hadn't likenowhere to go. Because our
original plan mine and Andy'soriginal plan. When we were
pregnant with our oldest was hewas going to school for nursing.
So Oh, really? Yeah. So he was,yeah, he was going to school for
nursing. But his best friendalways wanted to go into the
(01:59):
army. And so he went with himwhen he went to like the
recruitment office and signedup. And I even told them like,
Hey, don't fall for it. They'regoing to try to get recruit you
too. And
Nick (02:15):
you just didn't want to Yeah, you're like, you ain't
going nowhere.
Unknown (02:18):
No, I was like, don't.
I was like, don't fall for it.
And like they're gettingsprinkled, all these pretty
little promises and all thesethings that they're not going to
be able to keep whatever I'mlike, Just promise me you won't
sign up. And he said, Okay,yeah. And so he went with his
friend to support him as he wassigning up. And then at the
time, I think I was about sixmonths pregnant or so. And he
(02:41):
just comes home one day, fromschool, we're in college. And he
goes, Oh, hey, by the way, Isigned up for the Army Today.
And I was in the middle of like,writing like, Oh, hey, by the
way, yeah, literally just like,hey, by the way, our whole
Nick (02:55):
lives are gonna change.
Yeah, exactly. I
Unknown (02:57):
literally dropped my pencil. And I looked up at him.
And I was like, I'm sorry, runthat by me one more time. Oh, I
was livid. I was like, Excuseme, after I specifically said,
don't get sucked into it, youget sucked into it. And then he
ended up having to drop out ofthe nursing program, because you
(03:19):
could only miss two days. It wasan accelerated fast paced
program. And he was doing reallywell. But you can only miss two
days. And because of militaryshit, yeah, the signing up and
everything. He was going to missthree or four days. And so they
said you can't have to drop.
Nick (03:38):
Well, he would have Ultimately though, had to drop
it anyway, right? Because ofgoing in or they would have
Unknown (03:44):
I mean, potentially.
But the point is, he wasn'tsupposed to be military.
Nick (03:50):
Don't go change the subject. So the point is, I told
him not to fucking do this. Andhe did it anyway. Yeah.
Unknown (03:56):
Because the plan was good. Yeah. So he did. Yeah. So
like, like, yeah, the plan washe did the program. He went to
become a nurse, because he couldhave started working as like a
CNA or something. Along thoselines. Were right after the
program. Yeah. So he could havebeen making decent money ish
(04:17):
while he continued going toschool for nursing. And then I
was going to move in with him atthe duplex. Yeah, his family was
in a duplex house. And he theywere upstairs. So we were going
to be upstairs. Like everyoneelse was downstairs. And so that
that was the plan. And then whenhe came in and said that he
(04:37):
signed up for the military, likeour entire plan just got flushed
down the toilet.
Nick (04:42):
Well, this is a whole new sort of Revelation. I mean, for
me right? Now, I'm just likesaying, well, Holy fuck, I mean,
you've, I don't know if yourealize it, you've been able to
go through some changes. No,seriously, right. I mean, if you
think about it, you've enabledgo through some changes. I mean,
of course, this is now afterthat, let's say 13 years after
(05:06):
that fact. Right? And you'restill going through those
changes. We're sitting here,right? You're pregnant with your
fourth. Yep. Andy right now isstill you guys are moving into
another change, right? That'scoming up. Yeah, things are
always evolving, right? That'slife period. It's not like, Oh,
my God, this is some fucking newthing. And life is always
(05:28):
changing. But don't you thinkit's pretty fucking cool that
even after growing up andfeeling rejection, because we
could talk about rejection for asecond because rejection is
huge. Yeah, let's be real honestabout that. I mean, rejection is
a terrible feeling. We knowPerception is everything. Right?
(05:51):
So as a child, your mom couldhave been like, Oh, it's just a
kid, blah, blah, blah. But yourfeelings were feelings of being
rejected. You didn't know thatat the time, you just knew that
someone wasn't paying attentionto you. Now you have, you know,
a word context of what that is.
But I find it interesting thatyou felt that way. And here you
(06:12):
are today. Still going througheverything that you went through
with those feelings, becausethen that that stays with you,
right, that season two, whichyou Oh, my God, this stays with
you. It stays with you,throughout your adult life.
Obviously, then we talked aboutas you started to go on, in your
(06:35):
early 20s, or whatever, even 19or 20, you started that really
that disconnect, and you startedto move towards whatever you
want to call it. Enlightenmentare really learning about things
on your own and really going outand trying to figure stuff out.
(06:55):
So what do you think thecorrelation between the like the
rejection, and your search todisconnect? Right? Because if
you feel rejected all thoseyears, then you almost feel
alone?
Unknown (07:16):
Oh, yeah, most definitely. I did. And I, in my
early teens, seventh grade was areally bad year, because I was
at a private school. And seventhand eighth grade combined. My
sister was in eighth grade, Iwas in seventh. And so that was
really hard, because she was mybully, both in school and at
(07:39):
home. So I never got a reprieve.
And of course, at school, shewas kind of like the leader of
everybody of her class. So likeit kind of. So that's it. And
then it's just like, I was alonecompletely. For eighth grade,
completely alone. Like I hadnobody. On my side, you
Nick (08:01):
realize what you just said, like, you just said that
your sister was both your bullyat home and at school. So on one
hand, you're feeling rejected?
Yeah. And then on the otherhand, the only acknowledgement,
or anything that's being paidattention, you is being like
bullied. And of
Unknown (08:22):
course, she knows all of my weaknesses and all of my
insecurities, which she usesagainst me in front of everybody
else. At school.
Nick (08:32):
Yeah, so hard. So we have a real pretty fucked up dynamic
here, right? Oh, you're you feelcompletely rejected. But yet,
the only kind of attentionyou're getting is being
ridiculed and bullied.
Unknown (08:45):
I actually drew this picture in seventh grade, where
it's like all black. And thenthere was a heart in the middle
and two hands, breaking theheart in half, like literally
cracking it like a cookie,breaking it. It was literally my
nonverbal cry for help. Like,obviously, something is wrong.
And I show the picture to mymom, and she literally glances
(09:10):
at it. It was like during acommercial for between a
Lifetime movie she was watching.
So not even important. It's acommercial.
Nick (09:17):
Yeah, well, it's a Lifetime movie. That's not
important, either.
Unknown (09:20):
I know. But it was a commercial. And so I show her my
picture. thinking maybe this isgoing to trigger her and be
like, hey, something's notright. She glances at the
pictures goes, Oh, that's niceand goes right back to watching
the commercial.
Nick (09:36):
But then I mean, then now as an adult, we know that was
probably to be expected, becausethere was really not that
connection there. Oh, correct tobegin with,
Unknown (09:45):
but again, as a kid, I'm 13 at the time did you
Nick (09:48):
realize when you drew that picture? Did you know what that
meant?
Unknown (09:53):
Oh, for sure. Because right after that, I stood in the
hallway with a handful ofTylenol in my hand. I was kind
of It took the entire bottle. Iliterally sat there like my mom,
the living room was like rightaround the corner. My mom was
literally sitting like, fivefeet away from me. And I'm in
the hallway and higher bottles,Extra Strength Tylenol in my
(10:17):
head, like poured it out allinto my hand. And I literally
contemplated going walking intothe kitchen, getting a glass of
water and drinking and takingall of it. Because I was like, I
just like hurt, like, I had justhad this feeling and this, like,
urge to write instead. And so Iput them all back. I went
(10:39):
upstairs, and I got a blanknotebook, and I started writing.
So literally writing saved mylife. And that's how I started
writing. Wow, yeah,
Nick (10:50):
that's pretty fucked up. I mean, it's fucked up a cool at
the same time, right? I mean,seriously, right? I know. This
is very serious. I mean, butthat's, it's fucked up. But it's
also life saving, right? It'ssomething that's it's, it's
funny that you said that. AndI'm not trying to interject
myself here. But I canunderstand. I think when we
(11:13):
first met, I told you firstabout the poetry. Yeah. Because
when the estrangement happenedwith our son, I didn't even know
I knew how to write like that.
And that's what started tohappen. And I came up. And I
mean, it just came to me. Yeah,just happened. It was so deep
inside, it was weird. It waslike your body and your soul
knows what you need. If you canjust get past that terrible
(11:36):
feeling of pain or anxiety, orloneliness, or whatever. That's
pretty amazing. That happenedlike that. Wow. Sir, I don't
mean to laugh. But I sit here,across from someone who I'm
almost twice as old as I thinkof today. And I think of all
these words, triggered and wokeand vulnerable, and trauma and
(12:00):
all this shit, I understand it.
Right? I understand everygeneration uses words and things
to describe and do whatever. Buthere, I'm saying right now that
it's pretty cool that you're,you know, allowing yourself to
be vulnerable, to say somethinglike that, because that takes a
(12:22):
lot of courage to say that,because people see that act a
lot as an act of weakness. Fuckthem. But I'm glad you're able
to share that. So with thatbeing said, which brings up even
like, now my fucking head isgoing crazy. And we can probably
(12:46):
talk now for like, 10 hours, butso. So you're at the point of
feeling that you really don'twant to be around anymore. And
then, you know, you get intothis writing, which is fucking
awesome. And I think a lot ofpeople can relate to that. Which
is really pretty cool. It'smakes a lot of sense, right?
(13:06):
Because if you begin writing,then you begin writing what's in
your head, which then reallybegins to disconnect, and almost
puts you into a different worldthan
Unknown (13:17):
Oh, for sure. Like, that's definitely around the
time when I was reallydisconnecting from my family.
Because I even felt alone, whenwe had like family dinners and
stuff. So like it would be everyThursday night. Like my grandma,
my brother, my sister in lawwould all come over for dinner
(13:37):
and dessert. And I just rememberalways, I was always sitting
there quietly, like, I neverreally talked, or if I did, it
was just like, I just wouldslide it in, and it was quiet.
Nobody heard it, maybe my sisterin law did. But she was just
like, Oh my God, you'rehilarious. In true Kelsey
fashion, she would say thingslike that. But I didn't really
(14:01):
have a connection with anybodyin my family, because that's
when I started to realize howthey were how each person was,
like, how they were truly andhow and what they portrayed, and
what they believed aboutthemselves. And so I was just
like, Man, this is kind of abunch of bullshit.
Nick (14:20):
So you started to see that early on, you sort of had that
ability to sort of see thatearly on. Yep. And I mean, was
that each person because of anegative way they treated you or
just it was just you at acertain level, just looking at
everything as a whole
Unknown (14:41):
kind of both? Yeah.
Started with the how I wasalways kind of overlooked. And
how I was never really paidattention to everyone always
talked over me. I would, I wouldtry to say something. And
immediately somebody else wouldjump in and like steal my
thunder and talk over me and soI'm just like, wow, no one
really even And no one in myfamily even cares what I have to
say or wants to hear me. And sothen after that, I was just
(15:04):
like, learn to be quiet, say mythoughts in my head and not
really interact or say anythingwith anybody. And then that's
when I started being like, justwatching and observing how they
were sure you became anobserver, right? So then that's
how it started with me and justbe like, Man, they don't care
about me at all. And then kindof just seeing how they were
(15:27):
really as people.
Nick (15:30):
Do. This is just so fucking cool to me, because I
know how you are now. Right? Ididn't know you then. But I know
how you are now. And I know thatyou're a very caring person. And
I know that you realize thateach individual person, if
you've been reading people fromsince then, you then have to be
(15:52):
reading people all the time.
Right? Yeah. Because that's justwho you are. Yeah. But no matter
what, this is just blows meaway, right? Because this now
comes to sort of like my otherquestion. And what I really want
to talk about is like, eventhough you can read people, and
these people have rejected you,and you felt lonely, and you got
that out in your writing, andthat was awesome that you had an
(16:15):
avenue and a way to expressyourself through your writing.
Unknown (16:22):
You still
Nick (16:25):
continued relationships with these people. And that's
what blows me away too. Because
Unknown (16:32):
at 13 I had no, well, no,
Nick (16:35):
we're saying we know what, 13 that's when it started. But I
mean, you're 30 now? Well, yeah,it's true. Now. I'm sorry. I
didn't know. I shouldn't sayyou're totally fine. Yeah, I
know. I know how you. Okay. Butwhat I'm saying is, I know that
it's 12 years later, or 13 yearslater. Well, I'm saying since
(16:56):
13. So it's 17 years later.
Yeah. But we've had someconversations, right. So it's
not like you have the best. AndI'm air quotations here. Right.
Yeah. relationship with yourmom. Correct. We just know it
can be tumultuous at times. Hasany of this ever been like,
settled? Oh, no.
Unknown (17:20):
I've tried several times over the years. I know
we've talked about I don't knowif we've discussed on the last
one. But how? I always have tohave witnesses. Yeah. Talked
about it. Yeah. Okay. Yes. Someof those. We've touched on how
it felt when she was helping outwith Cora, my oldest when she
was a baby and infant. And Iliterally had nowhere else to
(17:42):
go. I had to stay at my parentshouse. Because Andy kind of
fucked us up in that way. Yeah.
There's still some trauma there.
But yeah, so we all sat down allfour of us, my husband, me, my
dad and my mom. Yeah. And wekind of tried talking about how
she was constantly overstepping,and wasn't helping us learn. She
(18:05):
was just trying, she was justdoing things for us instead,
like, I if I got somethingwrong, immediately, she would
like push me aside, be like, No,I got it. I got it. Like she
would do it instead with thebaby. And so I started to feel
like when I was a terriblemother, and that she felt she
could raise her better than methat she was trying to take her
like away from me, like all ofthose feelings. And so we tried
(18:28):
talking about it, and trying totell her like, Hey, this is how
we were feeling that, you know,we've been trying to kind of
find our places, parents andwhat works for us. But then you
constantly overstep andinterject and just take over.
Yeah. And she immediately gotdefensive about it. And he was
like, You need my help, didn'tyou? Didn't you? When, when he
(18:53):
was gone, he wasn't here andlike, fall all back on, like the
fact that he was gone. And hewasn't here for the first eight
months. And I'm like, Well, yes,I needed help. But I needed help
learning. I didn't need you totake over. Because I was
actually the baby of the family.
So I had no experience with baitwith infants at all, of course,
because you were young at theend. Yeah. So we were 19 when
(19:14):
she was when our oldest wasborn. So it literally no
experience he had experiencedbecause he has younger brothers,
who he kind of had to help raisewhich was another reason why I
was kind of pod left me. But youknow, I'm sure he has his own
trauma around that. That wholeconversation just did not go
(19:36):
over very well. Because ofcourse she got defensive and
turned it around. So she's thevictim and put all the blame on
like Andy or me. And all thisstuff worked. Yeah, deflect.
Yes. And so then it just kind ofends up getting swept under the
rug. And whoever the argument isbut they ended up having to
(19:59):
apologize to my mom for hurtingher feelings when the
conversation started. Yeah, howyour feelings were hurt
Nick (20:06):
that that victim mentality. So it really goes, it
really makes sense, though. Nowif you think about it, because
I'm just listening, right? Andif she must have been, well, she
was the same way then throughoutyour whole life. Yeah. Because
if you were rejected, that meansthat she sort of had to be the
(20:28):
center of attention all thetime. Right. And so it just
stands to reason, right? To meanyway, I don't know, I'm not a
therapist. I'm just thinking inmy head like that. So it makes
sense. So man, so we have allthis going on. Still, at the
core of this. You allow Your momto be part of your life and your
(20:52):
child's your your girls lives,and you allow your daughters to
be part of your mom's life. Andthat, to me, goes to show the
person that you are right now,that doesn't mean that's
necessarily a good thing. Imean, in terms of your sanity,
(21:16):
you need to think about yourselfas well. But I think what it
does, this goes to the wholehuman aspect of things. You
realize there should be no guilton your part. 100 Fucking
percent we know that. You knowthat. Right? Okay. No, I'm just
saying like, I'm just I meanthat seriously. Right? Yeah,
that shows just to the characterthat you have, you realize that
(21:40):
the problems that you have arewith your mother, not
necessarily with your daughterswith your mother, right? And of
course, you're going to be themom, and you're going to protect
them. And if you see thatanything is out of fucking
bounds. Yep.
Unknown (21:55):
I have put my foot down on many occasions. Yeah, I got
into into little arguments withmy dad, my mom, my sister, over
there bounce over my kidsboundaries. You know, an hour
you set? Yes, that,
Nick (22:08):
which is totally fair.
Yeah. Obviously, you feel atthis point, let's just say
that's adequate enough. Do youthink it was ever a control
issue? And I know, we sayboundaries, that's another one
of those sort of millennialwords, do you feel good enough
that this has put you in controlof the situation where as a
child, you're not in control,and you're rejected, and
(22:30):
whatever, now, you sort of havethat control,
Unknown (22:34):
you don't kind of get to pick and choose when she
comes around, when she's around.
Part of the reason why therelationship has stayed, was
because I was working. But wecouldn't afford childcare, both
of us were working, me and Andywere both working. But we
couldn't afford childcare,because childcare is hella
(22:54):
expensive. And my mom wouldwatch them for free. So it kind
of progressed to Well, I needyou for free childcare. And so
that's kind of how she stayedin. And then I didn't stop
working, we didn't manage to beable to like, have me stop
working. Until COVID COVID hit,I stopped working, Andy was
(23:18):
still considered a mandatorywhatever. So he was still able
to work, which was nice. Plus,you know, he kind of hit it very
well with the stock market. Soshe made some good choices
there. So we were able to haveme stop going to work. And it
also it was really nice, havingto quarantine and stay away from
me. I'm not gonna lie. That waskind of great. And it kind of
(23:41):
also made me realize that I waslike, maybe I don't need you as
much as I thought I did. And sonow that I'm only working
occasionally in like, out of thehouse, I mostly work either when
they're in school, or they'realready in bed, so I don't
really read her. So I try to beas careful as I can about
(24:02):
appointments that I select, totry and make sure that I don't
need her as much. Because I dofind that if it's been a week or
two weeks without seeing her,then I can handle her better.
When I see her. Yeah, justbecause she does and her
mannerisms and the way shespeaks and the way things
(24:23):
because she thinks she's a goodperson. She thinks she's great.
Sure. And I'm like, but like youdon't know who you really are.
Like and so like sometimes thatlike is annoying to me. It
frustrates me because I'm like,Okay, I can't handle this right
now because you like some of thestuff she says I'm just like, Oh
my god. So do you feel trapped?
(24:46):
Essentially, yeah, in somerespects. Definitely. It feels
like I can't withdraw from myfamily completely. Cool.
Nick (24:55):
Okay, so there's Yeah, so there's, oh my god, there's a
ton of shit Have Yes. Yeah. Andthe reason why I say that is
because for those who havelistened to this podcast,
especially when this is going toair, they would have heard what
happened to our son. Yeah. Andit it sounds almost identical.
(25:18):
It doesn't really. So you'rereally helping me. Yeah. Cuz
he's, I appreciate you becauseyou're really helping me to
learn and understand. And Ithink the Dine, I think the
dynamic might be a littledifferent, but not really. So
when I asked the question, andespecially when I say about
(25:39):
control, and that kind of stuff,I feel that we controlled our
son's life. No doubt, we weretold we gave him too much. We
didn't let them fail. But on theflip side, he said it would be
easier if we were dead. And inthat kind of stuff, and we
didn't understand that at first.
And I understand it's because wedidn't give him a voice and all
(26:01):
these things right now. Again,listening to you feeling
rejected, whatever, there is noway my son felt rejected.
Because we gave him too much andpay too much attention. And we
didn't let them fail. And wedidn't give him a voice because
we were always making decisionsfor him. And we were so it's a
little different, doesn't knowwho he is. But he, this is so
(26:24):
fucking awesome. Because this isalmost like you're interviewing
me now. Right? Because thismakes a lot of sense. Because
you're saying that a buddy ofmine called me the other day,
and we were talking and he hadlistened to a few of the
podcasts a guy grew up in in thecold. He said, man, he goes,
Nick, because he knows about myson. And he said, Nick, I think
(26:48):
your son is just trying to behis own man. And I get that. I
know, that's important. And it'snot just about being a man, here
I am sitting with you. You'redefinitely not a man. And you're
saying the same thing. Andyou're the same age,
essentially. And this is part ofwhy Nancy and I are doing what
(27:12):
we're doing. And I talk to youabout this, about crossing that
gap between kids and theirparents and trying to really
understand and really tellparents, man, look, these are
your kids. And these are humanbeings, and they do have a lot
(27:32):
of legitimacy to the way thatthey're feeling in their
emotions. Now, I'll also go backand say that I feel that a lot
of those emotions and feelingsare feelings that we've put in
ourselves. Right, and some ofthem are real. I'm not saying
that we don't have feelings andemotions. But I'm saying that we
(27:54):
think of things worse than whatthey are sometimes. Yeah,
definitely. But that doesn'tnegate Exactly, yep. Yeah. And
so when you're saying this, tome, it's really blowing me away.
What if your mom was to say toyou,
Unknown (28:12):
Kelsey,
Nick (28:14):
I realized that, that I've done some stupid shit. I hate
playing the victim. I don't wantto do this anymore. I just want
to be part of your lives withoutany kind of sort of animosity or
whatever going on. Let's workthis out. What is it going to
take for you to work this out?
What how would you respond toyour mom with that?
Unknown (28:36):
I would well, one, I would ask her how she came to
that conclusion. I would ask herHave you been? Have you been in
therapy? Or how did you comeacross this revelation? But
Nick (28:46):
does that at the end of the day? Does that really
matter?
Unknown (28:51):
I think in order for us to actually work through our
stuff, we need a mediator. Weneed an outsider, we need a Fair
party. Because I just know fromexperience that trying to talk
to her about how I'm feeling italways flips around to I'm the
villain. She's the victim. Andnow I have to apologize to her.
Nick (29:12):
But just the fact that she's coming to you and saying,
I've heard you I hear that Iknow before before it's whatever
and that that's in the past. Butwould you do that without any
kind of prerequisites? I mean, Ishouldn't say that. I shouldn't
(29:33):
say I shouldn't. I'm gettingback to like these words,
boundaries and right you would,I know that you've been hurt.
And I get that because I knowhow I was raised. I don't know
that because I'm at I've livedanother 24 years that I realize
certain things where I'm at inmy life. So we're all in our own
(29:55):
spaces, right. And I get thatand I totally respect that. So
His answer now could be atotally different way. 20 years.
Yeah, but you know what I'msaying. So I get that. So that's
not fair for me to even saythat, to be honest with you. I'm
wondering, because for us, thatwas the first thing I said,
right after our argument hadhappened. I said, Let's go get
(30:19):
some help. Like, whatever ittakes, like I. I'm not. I'm a
proud man, but I'm not a dumbman. Right? You know what I'm
saying? Like you up on it? No.
Oh, see? He said completelythat? No, he's not ready for
that. That wouldn't work. Thisis his problem. And he has to
figure it out.
Unknown (30:38):
Okay. For me, being roughly the same age as your
son. That kind of just sounds tome like he has no identity. And
he's trying to figure out hisidentity before he can even work
through such problems. Oh, man,again. Yeah. Yeah. So that kind
of makes sense. We're in fromhis point of view, like I he's
like, I don't, I didn't have avoice growing up. I don't know
(31:00):
who I am. Without you, makingchoices for me. So to him, You
saying let's go get help wasprobably triggered him saying
you're trying to make anotherchoice for me. See what I'm
saying? Yeah, no,
Nick (31:13):
I didn't even think of it that way. Trying to control me.
Yeah. Like, that's another oneof those fucking millennial
words. Triggered shit.
Unknown (31:20):
Yeah, that's probably the least that's my take on
that. Maybe once he worksthrough some stuff on his own,
and kind of comes into his ownbeing and realizes who he is as
a person. And he has his ownidentity, and doesn't mimic you
as a person, you know what Imean? Then maybe he would be
ready for therapy, because hewould know who he is, instead of
(31:43):
just trying to
Nick (31:44):
be what you want. Yeah.
See, I know who I am.
Unknown (31:49):
My mom came to me and said that let's go get help.
Let's work through our problems.
I would say, Yeah, let's go.
Let's go to therapy. Let's workit out. Because I know who I am
as a person.
Nick (32:01):
And I get that and you want to know that she's willing
to accept you where you're at.
Exactly. And I mean, you knowwhat, it's funny because the
conversation with him. He didkeep saying you guys raised me
right. It wasn't all that bad.
It this is just me, this is justme. Some of the things that were
said, that doesn't make sense.
But you know, obviouslybeginning to understand more
(32:22):
about that. And that's awesome.
I love this. I love havingconversations with you, because
you're pretty deep, and I canreally get deep. Yeah, well,
because we're being honest. AndI'm proud, but I'm not like I
said I'm not stupid. Okay, notabout me. Done. But thank you,
because that's fuckingincredible. You would accept it,
(32:44):
obviously, your mom and so whatdo you think would be like one
thing? That so we're gonna I'mgonna put you on the spot.
What's one thing that you'd loveto tell your mom? Just one that
you've never said before to her?
Unknown (33:08):
You really?
Nick (33:10):
Right, your face is turning red. It's the color of
your hair now. I didn't thinkI'd ever almost get to see you
speechless. Yeah, huh. Okay, um,is there something that's
really,
Unknown (33:24):
I think what I would want to say would be, you know,
I really want you to see me. Andto actually like me, for me.
Growing up, I didn't feel like Icould truly be who I was
becoming. So like, I like now, Ididn't discover a lot of this
(33:46):
stuff until after Andy and Istarted dating when I was 17. So
I started playing like magic,and wow, and D and like, all
these fantasy type things that Iabsolutely, like, loved. So I
started to find my crew, mypeople in that realm. Whereas
(34:07):
when I was younger, I never feltlike I could tap into that, you
know, I mean, because in school,there was this kid who really
was into this anime show calledNaruto. And he, I mean, he owned
it, like he would come with theheadband thing on his head to
school, whatever. But everyonewas like, Oh my God, he's such a
(34:30):
total like he was ridiculed byeveryone in the school. And I
was just like, and me on theflip side, seeing that I was
just like, man, he's so securein who he is, at this point.
Like, he doesn't care. And we'rein seventh grade eighth grade.
Nick (34:45):
Especially though kids are just so mean.
Unknown (34:47):
So I'm like, I had mad respect for him. I never would
have killed him at all because Iwas like, no up you like you I'm
too afraid at this point in timeto be myself and to like what I
like And also, there is likethis stigma a little bit. And
like the air quote nerdcommunity, because even like,
(35:11):
Andy's friends would be like,you're too pretty. You're too
attractive to like this stuff.
You're too like the fuck itreally?
Nick (35:19):
So what was that have to do exactly
Unknown (35:21):
what does that have to do with liking to play WoW or me
liking to play Magic or all thisquote unquote nerdy stuff? I'm
just like, that's such bullshit.
So then again, it felt like Iwas being ridiculed and almost
like, rejected because you don'tlook the part. Yeah. And I was
just like the Drupal like I'mtrying to branch out here. So it
was just like I couldn't ever bethat I couldn't ever be accepted
(35:43):
by like, by my family at all.
And even when I was trying tofigure out what I wanted to do
in college and stuff I hadoriginally wanted to go into
acting and things like that inhigh school. And that was
completely like No, from myparents, because my dad
(36:08):
essentially said that if I wasan actress, that I would be a
horse that I had to
Nick (36:15):
last fucking stereotypes of everything that I
Unknown (36:18):
would have to sleep around in order to get roles.
And I was like, wow, okay. AndI'm 14. And like, you're really
saying this to a 14 year old. Heliterally said, I would have to
be a horror because I would haveto sleep around to get roles.
Like there's word for word, buthe said, I was like, but then on
the flip side, so I was alsogaslighted. Because then on the
(36:40):
flip side, he would tell me, Ihave such a great memory. And I
should be an actress.
Nick (36:45):
Yeah. So there's, like, yeah, man back, okay.
Unknown (36:49):
So then I was like, Okay, I can't do that. Because
then when I was older, I evensaid, Well, if you're gonna live
here and go to college, it hasto be something practical.
Acting is not practical. Youcan't go for acting. So I
changed it to writing. And theywere like, still not practical,
but better. I still had to payfor all of my own college
(37:13):
education, whereas they paid forhalf of my sister's cosmetology
school,
Nick (37:18):
I will just tell you that on behalf of all motherfuckers,
who have kids in their 30s, Iapologize for my generation of
ignorance. And I think it'sfunny, because I'm not going to
(37:39):
I'll go down this road for asecond, I'm not also going to
blame them for playing a role towhat they were taught you, as a
parent are doing the best thatyou can right now to raise your
kids. For what you know. Yeah.
100%. Yeah. And I wouldn't doubtthat unless there is like really
(38:01):
major abuse and whatever goingon, and I'm not saying emotional
itself is not abuse at all,because it is yes. But I'm
saying that there's reallyoutward abuse, you know, what I
mean? And most parents that asan excuse for the way that I
raised my son, or the way yourparents raised you, or I'm
saying this coming from a mom,who raised me in a cult, and
(38:26):
physically and emotionallyabused me. And I can sit here
and forgive her for that. Right?
Because I realized where I'm atright now, going through what
I'm going through with my son,that as a parent, we do
(38:48):
honestly, do the best we canwith what we know, or what our
belief system is, or whatever atthe time, correct? Doesn't mean
it's right. Right? Yeah. No, theintention is the best intention,
right? But the best intention isnot always correct. Or right, I
(39:09):
should say,
Unknown (39:11):
I get you. And I guess then that kind of leads into
back again to why I still amallowing no no relationship on
her and my kids is because Irealized a long time ago, how
she is who she is. And I've kindof come to the realization that
she has little very little, ifany self awareness. So I'm like,
(39:38):
it's never going to change.
She'll always be this waybecause she doesn't want to
change she doesn't want to lookwithin she doesn't want to
realize how she is and that'sokay. Because some of like,
there might be some really deepdark shit in there that she's,
you know, writing Yeah, so I'mlike, I don't blame her have
come to that realization. Jen,and I kind of weigh the pros and
(40:00):
cons. She is a complete 180 withmy kids than she was with me.
See? Yeah, so she's really calm.
She's patient. She doesn't likereally raise her voice.
Obviously, she never hits them.
It would be completelydifferent. If she did I would be
(40:21):
hell no, we're out here by,again, complete 180 from how I
was treated, she pays attentionto them. She actually gets to
know them. She accepts them in away that she never accepted me.
Which is why I still allow itbecause in a way, her
relationship with them is good.
(40:44):
Well, it's her relationship withthem has nothing to do with me.
So it's like, it sucks. It does.
Because you're,
Nick (40:52):
yeah, you just said it, right? Like, your mom,
Unknown (40:55):
I do. In that's do. And so I see her doing this for my
kids. And I just kind ofrealized it's never going to be
me. Which does suck, but I'vekind of come to that conclusion
does suck. It does suck. Itdoes. But I have other people
now.
Nick (41:11):
So I just want you to know, that's what I was gonna
say that.
Unknown (41:17):
Look where you're at?
Yeah, yep.
Nick (41:20):
This is why you do what you do, right? This is why
you're people's healers. You'retheir healer. You sit there and
you do something for people thatis, is healing them in a sense.
That's part of you. Not beingaccepted. And that can be up to
(41:43):
you as well. Right? I mean, youhave to still take care of
yourself. It can't always be yougiving
Unknown (41:51):
out? Correct because otherwise, I if I'm not full?
You have nothing to give. Yes.
But yeah, so that's why selfcare is important. I think I've
mentioned before, too, that thesaying in the massage therapy
community is that massagetherapists become such
therapists to heal somethingbroken in themselves while
healing others.
Nick (42:14):
Well, I believe that I believe that for massage
therapists. I believe that forspiritual healers, I believe
that for coaches, I believe thatfor most, a lot of the
psychology and field. This isvery therapeutic for me. That's
awesome. Like, I'm here, I'm noteven a fucking therapist.
Unknown (42:35):
I'm like, I'll keep going.
Nick (42:35):
I'll give you a bill. Next massage on you. Let me ask you,
then there's a young woman, ayoung girl, a mom, anybody out
there? A woman who is completelyfeels rejected? What do you tell
(42:59):
them?
Unknown (43:01):
I tell them to find who they are first. Because then
once they know who they are,they can find their people. And
just like, say the price ofwater changes on the location
where it's at. If you feelworthless, where you're at,
(43:24):
might just be in the wronglocation. So you might just have
to find a different, differentpeople different job different,
something different, you justnot with the right in the right
place. Yeah, is your worthchanges depending like water
your worth is or decreasesdepending on where you're at
(43:44):
agree with. Sure. And also toknow your own worth. Because
once you know your own worth,and you accept yourself, then
you can start healing the childand you that feels rejected. If
you can, like reparent, yourinner child and it really accept
yourself. And then you can findyour people that will accept
(44:07):
you. But you have to know whoyou are first, in order to find
the people that will accept you.
Nick (44:12):
And for the young girl teenager who's there who still
is under sort of their parent'scontrol or rule who might be
sitting there contemplating thesame thing you were
contemplating. It would be hardfor them to be understood. Right
(44:35):
still. Yeah. And I know this isdifficult right now. I know.
It's difficult. This is a veryserious issue. But what do you
think then? And I know you hadan outlet, right? What would you
say to them?
Unknown (44:49):
To the early teens or preteens? I mean, I would say to
find your outlet if they don'treally quite know what it is yet
whether it's try differentthings. Try drawing what you're
feeling. Try Writing what you'refeeling I hear running is great
for clearing the mind. I haterunning personally, but any kind
of outlet that's healthy,obviously, I would not condone
(45:14):
smoking or drinking at thatyoung age bowl at any time to
cope, because that's nothealthy. Music can be very
healing, whether it'stherapeutic for sure, yeah,
whether you're listening toinstrumental metal music, or
soft jazz, or whatever it is,find something that has meaning
(45:34):
for what you're going throughthat helps you feel understood
and accepted. And then it'smakes it that much easier. I
feel like when you findsomething that makes you feel
understood,
Nick (45:46):
and I would add to that, and this is just for me, the
pain that I've gone through, isthat it does, and you just got
to go through it, go through it.
And keep going.
Unknown (46:02):
Suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem.
Absolutely. But when you're thatyoung, you can't see the big
picture. You're just you'restuck in the hearing now and in
drowning in the emotion thatyou're feeling. Yeah, that's
trying to find your life raft.
Nick (46:21):
Yeah, I just yeah, let them know that they just keep
going. Yeah, everything istemporary. Yeah, everything's
temporary. Yeah. Yes, keep
Unknown (46:28):
trucking. keep trucking. Yeah, find your
outlet. Well, dude,
Nick (46:33):
I think we hit a stride and I'm really happy that we
were able to talk about thesethings that matter. And I
appreciate your insight. Thatwas awesome. And now I'm going
to be sitting on that massagetable. And you're gonna be like,
hurting me like usual. And I'mgonna be like, but you gave me
(46:55):
such good advice. How can you besuch a sadistic, insane, crazy
woman.
Unknown (47:02):
Everyone has to have an outlet. Yeah, well, you're
right. That's the truth.
Nick (47:08):
All right. Well, I do honestly appreciate it. We'll
see you soon. Bye.
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