March 20, 2025 • 30 mins
And the "F WORD" is: FRIENDSHIP. Fearlessly Facing our friendships as we age.
Friendship expert Danielle Bayard Jackson unpacks the science of women's platonic relationships and offers practical strategies for navigating friendship challenges after 50. Research shows that loneliness increases cognitive decline, dementia, and heart disease by 32% in women over 50, making our friendship connections crucial for health and wellbeing.
• Reframing being "new" as an advantage when entering social situations
• Using the "acceptance prophecy" to approach social situations with confidence
• Understanding how online friendships should supplement not replace in-person connections
• Handling reciprocity issues by framing concerns as invitations rather than accusations
• Recognizing when a friendship has run its course and how to navigate ending relationships
• Honoring your authentic self in friendship while remaining open to growth
• Taking control of your friendship journey by stepping outside your comfort zone
Find Danielle's book "Fighting for Our Friendships: The Science and Art of Conflict and Connection in Women's Relationships" anywhere books are sold and check out her podcast "Friend Forward" for more insights on women's friendships.
Ready to FEARLESSLY FACE all the F WORDS - be educated, inspired and encouraged?
______________
Fearlessly Facing Fifty and Beyond has over 200 episodes with Inspo and stories to age fearlessly and connect confidently to others thriving at midlife and beyond.
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Ready to FEARLESSLY FACE all the F WORDS – be inspired and encouraged?
Get a copy of Amy’s Best selling book: CANNONBALL! FEARLESSLY Facing Midlife and Beyond here
Fearlessly Facing Fifty and Beyond has over 200 episodes with inspiration and stories to age fearlessly and connect confidently to others thriving at midlife and beyond.
Make sure to share with friends and family and would love if you could leave a review. There are so many shows out there floating around and if you are finding value in the Fearlessly Facing Fifty podcast share it with the world – a review means so much.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey, fearless Friends .
It's Amy Schmidt, and soexcited to be back with you
today with another great guest.
You know I wanted to tell you alittle bit about one of those
F-words that we're going to befacing this week in this episode
, and that F-word is friends.
So we are fearlessly facingfriendships and you know, after
50, it can be a challenge.
So today's guest is afriendship expert.
(00:21):
I've had her before on my showand I really, really adore her
and her work and I'm so excitedto introduce her, or reintroduce
her, back to the show.
Danielle Bayer Jackson is awomen's relational health
educator who speaks nationallyabout the science of women's
platonic connections.
She's the director of theWomen's Relational Health
Institute and also the author ofFighting for Our Friendships
(00:44):
the Science and Art of Conflictand Connection in Women's
Relationships.
All right, let's dig into this,because this is a big one.
So, danielle, welcome to theshow.
Well, here she is.
I mean, this is a woman thatwhat I talked about in the intro
.
She's like a friendship rockstar.
(01:06):
Danielle, welcome, I'm so gladto be back.
Thank you for having me.
Yeah, you know, we weretogether.
We just talked a little bitbefore we started recording.
We were together years ago Idid a live show and actually I
think it was 2020, because Ithink we were amidst all the
chaos of COVID, yeah, and youwere on and you are just, you're
really a shining star and Ihave to say to everybody
(01:28):
listening and for those of youthat are watching, it's fun to
watch Danielle, because you'vedone so much and you are a busy
mom and wife as well, right.
Speaker 2 (01:37):
That is true.
That is true, but by the graceof God I'm still here.
Speaker 1 (01:41):
And we just keep rocking it.
You gotta keep rocking it hereand we just keep rocking it.
Yeah, you got to keep rockingit, yeah.
And I'd love seeing some of thecampaigns you worked on.
You worked on one gosh, was itaround the holidays with Turkey,
or something like that a coupleof years ago.
Yeah, we've done.
Speaker 2 (01:52):
Butterball and Bumble and Amazon Prime and so many
cool opportunities which youknow is.
It's kind of interesting towatch because when I first got
into the business of helpingwomen with their friendships, I
mean I was quite literally kindof chuckled at when I first
announced that I was going totake that career direction.
So to see a growing interest inour relational health makes me
(02:16):
really happy and I'm so honoredto be a part of that movement.
Speaker 1 (02:19):
Isn't it amazing?
I do think you know.
I read a statistic and you'regoing to know more about the
science of this than me being anexpert but 32% of people.
There was a statistic aroundloneliness and it was specific
to women and this was more ofwomen 50 plus, but there was
like a 32% increase in cognitivedecline and dementia and heart
(02:41):
disease because of lonelinessand dementia and heart disease
because of loneliness.
Speaker 2 (02:46):
Yeah, yeah, you know.
I hope that's one of manyreasons why people begin to have
a sense of urgency aroundleaning into and tending to the
quality of their platonicrelationships.
I think all too often or atleast 10 years ago people kind
of saw friendships as somethingyou push into the margins I'll
(03:07):
get to it when I've got time.
We see it as something tooengaging when we want somebody
to just hang out with and dosomething with recreationally
and that's all fun and those arebenefits of friendship.
But when you start to seeresearch around how it has a
direct impact on your physical,mental and emotional health, I
hope that encourages us to tendto it with a little more fire, a
little more urgency, a littlemore urgency around it.
Speaker 1 (03:29):
Well, you know, think back to those necklaces.
I wrote about friendships over50 a long time ago on a blog and
it was remember those necklacesthat were like half said best
and the other one said or BFF,or whatever, and you can one
wore one and the other onemiddle school, high school or
whatever, and you can one moreone and the other one middle
school, high school, whatever.
You know, I think we put a lotof pressure on ourselves to find
, like, like we need to have abest friend, like you know, that
(03:52):
that friend that we're, we seeat the, at the yoga class, we're
like, I don't know if I reallywant to, I don't know if she can
be a best friend.
We don't have to have a millionbest friends, right?
Speaker 2 (04:00):
Yeah, yeah, that's true.
The latest study I've seen saidthat 40% of people do not have
a best friend, and hey, I get it, especially for women.
The research tells us thatwomen are more dyadic than men,
meaning we tend to split offone-to-one and that is one of
the reasons why our friendshipshave more platonic intimacy,
because it's just me and you inthis private vault where we're
(04:24):
engaging in mutualself-disclosure.
So to some degree I understandthe desire to be intimately
known by another woman and wehave this unique, deep
relationship.
That is true.
But I also see what you seearound that pressure to find the
person.
I do think it makes us secretlyaudition women who we encounter
(04:45):
.
I do think that for some womenI've heard almost a sense of
shame around not having one,like what's wrong with me, that
I don't have a bestie.
Then we're forcing it withpeople who aren't meant to be
and we're discounting people whocould still offer value to our
lives but they're not theperfect package.
So I agree with you that it canbe problematic, depending on if
(05:07):
we're holding it to like thishigh aspirational thing, because
we might be missing out on alot of the good stuff.
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1 (05:15):
Well, let's walk through this scenario because I
know a lot of women that arelistening are going through this
.
So I got to be honest.
I've moved 13 times and this isanother move here where I'm
sitting today, you know.
So I've moved a lot and with myfamily and my husband and I was
always that person that wouldbe walking in with, like feeling
like I'm wearing that sash thatsays talk to me, I'm new, like
new kid on the block, you knowalways and and it at times it
(05:49):
gets really hard and I have tobe honest with you We'll talk
about this a little later butit's gotten harder for me and I
have more confidence than I'veever had.
But yet, boy, I still got towalk into new communities now
and feel that, so walk methrough.
Somebody that's listening,that's maybe in a new community
and they're going to a PTAmeeting and they're walking into
that auditorium you know how itis and you see women that are
mingling and they're talking andthey're laughing and all of a
sudden, you that's walking inthat doesn't know anybody is
getting a rash, their heartstarts palpitating.
(06:09):
You know the whole thing.
How can we get to be our bestconfident self, walking in a new
situation like that, searchingfor some new friends.
Speaker 2 (06:20):
The first is a mindset thing.
So I have some technical stuffbut a mindset thing and that is
almost see being the new personas an advantage.
So often we see it as adisadvantage.
So we think, oh, I'm coming inlate, I'm behind everybody
else's.
Their friendships are alreadyformed.
I hear that a lot.
Well, everybody else alreadyhas.
(06:41):
So, I already see myself ascoming in as a loss, but what if
I saw it as a benefit?
I'm here to experiment.
I'm here to establish some newties.
I feel like when you're new,that's kind of an end.
I mean, you can easily go toanyone and say I'm new here.
What do you recommend?
People love giving their twocents.
A lot of people actuallygravitate toward the newbie,
right?
I know I do, and I'm like girl.
(07:02):
Let me tell you everything youneed to know, right?
So start to see.
Okay, could this be anadvantage?
My position, a person peoplewant to cling to and share with,
and I have so many questions,so there's actually something
kind of you have kind of an edgebeing new.
That's an advantage.
The second thing and this is atip that comes from Dr Marissa
Franco, who's the author of thebook Platonic, but she always
(07:23):
says expect to be liked.
There's something known as thegosh.
What is it?
There's this idea around oh,the acceptance prophecy, and the
idea is that people who expectto be accepted typically are,
and those who are anticipatingrejection typically get it.
And the way this works isbecause if I expect that I'm
(07:46):
going to be liked when I'm here,I've probably got my eyes up.
I'm probably unafraid to enterinto conversations.
I'm laughing introducing myselfbecause I know that you're
going to like me, but if Iexpect you're going to reject me
.
Whether it's because I thinkthat other women are jealous
which I've heard women saywhether I think that there's
just something about me that'snot likable right, the people
(08:06):
here are mean.
I go in with my head down.
I'm engaging in avoidantbehaviors like just kind of
scrolling on the phone.
I'm not getting intoconversations because I don't
want to be a burden.
So now others walk away likewow, she didn't talk much, she
wasn't smiling, and so it'salmost a fulfilling prophecy.
So I think those two thingscould be really helpful in kind
of shifting the dynamics in theroom.
Speaker 1 (08:29):
I like that because you actually, in the first
scenario, you kind of reframethat and you kind of walk in
feeling like a rock star, right.
You kind of feel like, hey,they want to know me, they want
to know me.
And from the other part of that, women are sharers, right, we
love to share.
So you're right, ask them.
You know what's the stuff to doaround here, what's the?
Oh, those were two great hintsright there.
(08:50):
That eases that a little bit,because you know how that is.
I mean, it's intimidating, yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:55):
Yeah, absolutely, and I get it.
I've been there too.
I'd like to think I'm aconfident, self-assured,
charismatic woman, and there aretimes where I'm like, okay,
like a little anxiety bubblingup.
But I have to coach myself.
That's a big part of it too.
If you're thinking thateverybody else has got it
figured out and you don't, no,we all are trying to figure this
out.
Maybe we're confident in somescenarios more than others, but
(09:16):
I've got to coach myself throughin the moment and tell myself
the same things I just shared.
Okay, I got this.
I'm just going to ask questions.
There's probably some nicepeople here.
I just need to show up.
I've got to talk myself through, walking in with my head up and
with a smile just as much asanyone, and typically it tends
to have positive outcomes.
Speaker 1 (09:33):
Oh, I love that.
I love that, and we do.
We have to.
You know, really, that thatinner cheerleader has to come
out and that inner critic isalways there and that's so noisy
.
But we've got to have thatinner cheerleader, we've got to
walk in.
And I don't know if you agreewith me on this or not, but you
know it's kind of a worst casescenario thing.
I say this so often.
I raised three kids.
They're all grown now, but Istill say to them what's the
(09:54):
worst case scenario?
I think we have to, you know,kind of adopt that mindset too.
What's the worst case?
They don't like me, all right.
Speaker 2 (10:02):
Yeah, that's great.
You know, when I'm working withclients, that's one of the
things that we pause to talkabout because they'll say, well,
I just, I don't know, it's justfeel so awkward and I'll ask
okay, what is the worst thingyou're expecting to happen?
Like, what's the thing thatyou're hoping doesn't happen?
I don't know that I walk up tothe table and they give me a
dirty look or look at me likeI'm stupid for talking, and I'll
(10:23):
say, okay, let's say they do,because if we're being honest,
that's totally a possibility.
Then what?
And then often the client willsay, well, I mean, I guess I
just walk away.
That's right.
So sometimes lean into thething you're scared about
happening to give you anopportunity to brainstorm how
you'd respond, and we find thatmore than 90% of the time, oh,
(10:46):
it's survivable.
Yeah, deeply uncomfortable, butsurvivable, and it kind of
takes some of the power out ofthat worst case scenario.
Speaker 1 (10:53):
Great point, great point.
Let's talk a little bit aboutthe power of the internet and
these virtual friendships.
I mean, it's kind of crazy.
Like you know, we talk aboutloneliness and we talk about all
this, but all of a suddenthere's, you know, people that
are having engaging online.
They may not even met them inperson, but yet they consider
them a friend because they're anonline friend.
(11:14):
I mean, are these real?
Are these really sustainablefriendships?
Speaker 2 (11:19):
Yeah, you know it's tough, because I know that a lot
with the ubiquity of digitalconnections, when people are
going to start forming what theyidentify as friendships, and
who am I to say that's a realfriend, that's not?
I will say this some things forpeople to consider.
The first is do you find thatthe way that you're engaging
digitally with people, is itsupplementing your friendship
(11:41):
landscape or is it replacingyour friendship landscape?
That's the main question,because I'm not here to qualify
your friendship, but that's abig question.
If I find that I'm turning totexting and calling and DMing
you and this and that, and I'mliking and commenting and
sharing and I'm like, yeah, yeah, I keep up with my friends and
that's the whole of ourinteraction, there's something
(12:03):
wrong with that, assuming thisperson's not a long distance
friend, there's something wrongwith that.
So it should be supplemental,it should not be a substitution.
That's something to look at,because I also wonder how that
leans into social anxiety,because I'm not out with people,
so now I'm scared going outwith people.
So you know.
So it's just.
It becomes like this cycleRight, and and and again.
I know some people will say,well, I use it because you know
(12:25):
I'm never going to see thisperson there across the country.
There are so many benefits, youknow.
Thank God for the internet.
It's creating certaincommunities for people who don't
have that where they physicallylive.
Maybe you have a certain faithor very niche interests, or a
child with a chronic illness andthese people get it and they
don't live by you.
Thank God for that.
That you can feel affirmed andget support and be a resource.
(12:46):
That's one aspect of yourcommunity.
You still need people in personand so that would be my main
thing to help people kind ofgauge their relationship with
social media connections is isit supplementing or is it
replacing?
Because that makes all thedifference.
Speaker 1 (13:03):
Oh, supplementing or replacing, oh, I like that.
I like that a lot.
Let's talk about this wholereciprocating thing.
It's a thing.
Now, you know, I'm in my 50s,so you know, you invite someone
over for dinner and then there'sthis whole.
I think we were raised this way.
Gen Xers were like, okay, wellthen they need to reciprocate.
You know, this wholereciprocating thing, is that
still a thing?
Is it?
(13:23):
Should it be like a scorecard,should it not?
Let's, let's walk through that,okay.
So first, I want to say thatthis is probably deep sky, heavy
sky.
Speaker 2 (13:35):
There's so much there , you know.
First, I want to say that if Ihad to rank the top three issues
women bring to me, reciprocityis on that list, and that's
consistent with the researchthat finds that that is
something that women deeplyvalue in their same-sex
friendships.
Reciprocity, everything equal,everything balanced.
(13:56):
I do wonder if some people area bit more conscientious than
others.
When we look at the five theycall them the big five
personality traits, one domainis conscientiousness, which
means you're very aware of othersituations and you feel very
dutiful and systematic andorganized, and so a part of that
is feeling like showing up forothers, keeping your word.
(14:17):
I found that those people aremore attuned to like hey, I did
this.
Now the right thing to do, orthe obvious, nice, polite,
mannerable thing to do is theyinvite me.
I think people who are moreconscientious sense that and
others might not.
Okay, and the last thing I'llsay is you know, to that person
who's like I really wantreciprocity If I can offer a
little bit of ease and insight,is totally still desire that,
(14:41):
because friendships should feelbalanced and I'm never wondering
if I'm more invested than theother person.
100%.
A couple of things to offerrelief.
The first is look for otherways the person might be
contributing, because a lot ofus are familiar with love
languages.
Maybe I'm showing up in acertain way and because I value
that, I'm looking for it LikeI'm giving it, so I want it back
(15:02):
.
But is it possible that myfriend showing up by being
highly attentive to the things Ishare, she's following up hey,
how was that doctor'sappointment?
Are you doing good?
We laugh together.
Is she thinking she iscontributing?
But it just doesn't mirror mine.
So I'm dissatisfied.
So look at that.
Is she giving or not giving theway you like?
The second step would be tellher the way you want her to give
.
Gosh, darn it, you havepermission.
(15:24):
So often we are dissatisfied butthen we think I shouldn't have
to say it.
It should be obvious.
I shouldn't have to say it.
But what I've noticed is wedon't do that in any other
relational context.
We want something from our kids, we say it.
We want something from ourhusband.
We're like babe.
We want something from our kids, we say it.
We want something from ourhusband.
We're like babe, we need totalk.
We are not feeling good withour employee.
We have performance reviews,dedicated time to talk about our
(15:48):
progress, but for some reason,we believe that in a friendship
with another woman, she shouldjust know that and then, when
she doesn't, I'm silentlypenalizing her for it, and
before I know it, we're driftingaway.
So package it.
The last thing I'll say ispackage it as an invitation
instead of an accusation.
So instead of you never share,you never invite me.
No one's going to respond wellto that.
(16:09):
I wouldn't.
But if it's like, hey, I know,the last couple of times we got
together, I had you come overhere, but I definitely want
things to be balanced.
So I'm happy to come to yourplace.
I know that you're a good cook.
I want to put my feet up and Iwant you to make me your special
pot roast.
It's playful, but my subtext isthe same.
It's your turn, but I'm sayingit because I want more of you.
(16:31):
I just would like it to look alittle different, and the right
people want the data on how tolove you well.
Speaker 1 (16:38):
The wrong people will become indignant and that says
something Danielle, you are arock star.
You are a rock star.
I love that Invitation overaccusation.
I wrote it down because thoseare two powerful words.
So true.
I love that because that wholereciprocity thing it's big, so
you just hit that out of theballpark, for so many people are
going.
Oh okay, yeah, it's my turn.
(16:59):
Yeah, oh yeah.
I'm just going to text rightnow as I'm listening to this.
Let's talk about this wholebreakup thing.
This came up over the summerwith one of my really good
friends and I think we were outfor a walk and she said Aimee,
you got to have a show on how tobreak up with friends, because
it's a real thing, we put a lotof time, a lot of effort, all of
(17:20):
that, and I think we need to atleast from my perspective.
I feel like we need to giveourselves that gift of grace of
like okay, if this isn't workinganymore, if it's not blooming
at this particular season, it'sokay, we can break up.
But man, it's hard.
So give us some tips on how togo about it.
What are kind of the signals ofall right, this, this is not a
sustainable friendship, it's notworking for either of us.
(17:42):
It's time to break up.
Walk us through that.
Speaker 2 (17:45):
Yeah, so first you know that happens.
The research says that we tendto replace half of our friends
every seven years.
Speaker 1 (17:53):
Like like when our hair changes every seven years.
Come on, Seriously, I know thatcycle of seven.
Speaker 2 (17:57):
I've even heard like your taste buds change every
seven years or something, sothere's something about that
number seven right.
But wow, I hope that that showsus that that there is this
natural pruning that ishappening.
So if you're feeling ashamedabout the friendship not working
out which I hear from a lot ofwomen they feel guilty or what's
wrong with me that I can't keepa friendship.
I see a lot of shame in that orif you're holding onto it for
(18:21):
reasons of desperation way longpast its expiration date,
they're supposed to evolve Now.
On the same side, I want to saybecause I've also worked with
several women who are leaving atthe sign of any discomfort or
inconvenience Now is the issuereally you don't know how to
navigate conflict really well,that's something else.
If, when you look at lots ofyour friendships, it ended when
(18:43):
you got overwhelmed by thethings that were bothering you
and you said nothing, you getoffended easily.
So some of this is what's yourcapacity for friction and
discomfort?
Let's look at that.
But assuming all that stuff'sgood and it really is time to
let go, some indicators might beif you find that you are
depleted after you guys spendtime together and I'm not
(19:06):
talking like I'm so tired fromlaughing so hard You're
exhausted.
You're exhausted.
Whether she complains the wholetime didn't ask about you.
She's talking about thattraumatic thing again, and it's
the only thing we talk about.
It is tiring to get together.
That says something If you findthat you don't like who you are
in the friendship, becausefriendships activate different
(19:29):
sides of ourselves.
So if I'm thinking man, I likewho I am in other dynamics, but
when we come together I don'tknow, I don't like who I am.
I find myself being tense orwalking on eggshells.
I find myself gossiping morethan normal.
I find myself getting a littlesnarky, but I don't do that with
other people, but when I getwith her I'm snarky.
Look at that.
That says something.
(19:49):
Are you growing here right?
If you find yourself fearfulthat if you were your full self
or if you spoke up fully, you'dbe penalized in some way?
She operates in a very punitiveway.
That's too great a cost.
That's too great a cost.
And finally, if you find thatthe only reason you're staying
(20:10):
is because you've been friendsfor so long, that's it.
I think that's something worthlooking at too, because she's
taken up the space that somebodyelse could be in.
I'm not saying it won't bepainful, I'm not saying it won't
cause discomfort, but those aresome indicators to look at that
.
Maybe it might be time torelease that relationship.
I love that and that's reallytreating, to release that
relationship.
Speaker 1 (20:28):
I love that and that's really treating, it's
giving ourselves a gift, it'sloving ourself.
It's taking the time ofself-reflection, self-awareness,
actually stepping aside offthat crazy hamster wheel and
looking at okay, how is thisfriendship going?
Henry Cloud wrote a great bookI'm sure you've read it
Necessary Endings, and I thinkthat, like you said at the
(20:50):
beginning, kind of that pruningthing, there are times when
there's necessary endingsbecause you're moving on, you're
growing in a different way andyou kind of you know, in that
friendship too, that you have toend.
For those reasons that youmentioned I can think of.
You know people on the top ofmy head I don't have many, but
there's a few that you feel likeyou're doing all the work or
(21:11):
you feel like you're, or you dowalk away a little deflated.
Those are tough.
Those are tough things to do,though it's tough to break up.
Speaker 2 (21:19):
Yeah, oh, it definitely is.
And and you know I say this toobecause I know some people are
can be kind of flippant aboutfriendship endings.
Well, you know what?
Well, now I'm cutting her off.
I'm done with that.
And I just want to say, forthose who are having trouble
with it but know it's time, I'mwith you Because we're not just
saying goodbye to the bad stuff,you're also about to release
(21:41):
the good stuff too.
That's what makes it sodifficult.
So I'm not just.
Two years ago I had a friendshipthat sunsetted and I felt a lot
of embarrassment around it, ifI'm being honest, because I
thought here I am doing thiswork and I can't make it work.
So I felt the same things, andthe reason it was so hard is,
even though this person wassaying and doing things that
(22:02):
were not okay and broke my trust.
I also was really sad, becausewe have inside jokes, we know
each other's children.
Because we have inside jokes,we know each other's children.
She has my back and hasinspired me in a lot of ways,
but it didn't feel safe and soit was complicated and it was
difficult, and that's oftengoing to happen with women's
friendships, because theresearch shows that we integrate
(22:23):
our women friends into ourlives to the degree of a sibling
men to the degree of a cousin.
So it is going to be hurtfulwhen this ends, because you're
my sister, you're not just myfriend.
Speaker 1 (22:34):
Yeah, yeah, oh, well said, let's talk introverts and
extroverts.
I have three kids.
I have two very big extrovertsthat are kind of bookending,
kind of a middle one that's alittle more introverted.
Do introverts tend to kind ofgravitate to other introverts?
Is it better for an introvertto maybe you know gravitate more
towards extroverts?
Is there any science aroundthat?
(22:55):
That's so interesting.
Speaker 2 (22:57):
You know, I've heard both ways.
So I've heard some introvertswho enjoy people who can kind of
move at their same pace.
They feel comfortable, theyfeel like the other person just
gets it.
I've also seen a lot of peoplemake jokes around how introverts
make friends by attaching to anextrovert and they kind of do
all the work for them.
You know, I think something tokeep in mind if you are an
introvert is one is don't thinkthat you have to pretend to be
(23:19):
an extrovert to make a bunch offriends.
That's not true.
Be yourself.
However, there is research thatshows that when introverts
behave in a little bit more ofan extroverted way, they do
report a mood boost.
Now, this is short term, butthey do report feeling good when
they act a little bit moreextroverted.
So take that tip into thefriend making world.
It might be helpful to you, butstill be authentic to who you
(23:42):
are.
So some tips I would say ifyou're trying to like, form new
friendships as an introvert istry to do things that are in a
space that's more comfortable toyou, right?
If you don't like parties, whyare you going to a big old
gathering to make friends?
You don't have to.
What are spaces that feel alittle safer?
Have control over that.
Let yourself go for a shorttime period.
So set a goal of hey, I'm goingto have two deep conversations
(24:03):
with two people and then I'mgoing to let myself go and then
let myself go home and then plansomething nice to go home to,
to relax and to unwind.
Right, if you do that, you didgreat.
But you don't have tooverextend yourself in order to
make and keep friends.
You do have to step outside thebox, because it's a
relationship, but it's okay toto honor your energy.
Speaker 1 (24:25):
Yeah, that's great, that's great.
So I've got on Daniel Byard.
Jackson Byard rhymes with tired.
Now I'm going to alwaysremember to say that correctly.
You know, you've got a podcastout there too, right, the Friend
Forward podcast.
Speaker 2 (24:37):
Yes, I do, we've been having that for maybe, oh my
gosh, five years, Gosh, maybe,like starting today.
Five years and we just reallydig into the complexities of
women's friendships.
What does the science have tosay about the unique ways that
women cooperate, communicate andengage in conflict?
That's our jam.
Speaker 1 (24:55):
Yeah, I love it.
You also have a book out right,fighting for Our Friendships
the Science and Art of Conflictand Connection Ooh, two big C
words right there in women'srelationships.
And you can find that anywhere.
Can you find?
Well, I'll put it in theepisode.
Speaker 2 (25:06):
Yeah, that's anywhere you get books.
It's in Barnes and Nobles andTargetcom and all the things
fighting for our friendships.
And you know it was just ourway of trying to explain the
mechanics of women's friendships.
So that's, the first half ofthe book is more analysis and
then the second half isapplication.
So talking through nine ofwomen's most pressing platonic
(25:28):
conflicts, most pressingplatonic conflicts, and my goal
is just to help somebody enjoymore satisfaction in their
female friendships.
Speaker 1 (25:35):
That's the goal.
So awesome, so awesome.
I'm going to link that all inthe episode notes.
So before we leave, I've gottwo questions for you, and the
first one is kind of a personalquestion.
I'm curious if I was to askyour mom, danielle, like when
you were 10 and 12, walking themiddle school hallways yeah, I
know You're like, oh man, whatis Amy going to?
ask right now no one's everasked me that I know You're not
ready for this one.
Would your mom say, man, shewas always that girl Like she
(25:59):
had a million friends, she kindof had a posse.
She was that friendship girl.
Yeah, I know, take a deepbreath.
Speaker 2 (26:06):
I'm laughing because I'm actually envisioning my mom
laughing at that.
I was very social.
Yes, I don't think I was anawesome friend.
My fifth grade teacher calledmy mom to tell on me because we
formed a Spice Girls club and Itold some of the girls they
(26:27):
couldn't be in it becausethere's only five Spice Girls
and my mom immediately made mego back to class, disband that
group, and she was likeeverybody can be in the group or
in no group at all.
You know, so she was alwaysthere to guide me, so I've
learned a lot of lessons sincethen.
I'd like to think I love that.
Speaker 1 (26:44):
I love that.
Thanks for sharing that.
You know, for people listening,when did your passion and
purpose really align?
I mean, you know, for me I kindof found that a little bit
later.
You know, and I feel thatthat's an intersection there
that when we find it, that'swhen the magic happens.
Speaker 2 (26:59):
I totally, I totally agree with you.
It was a journey.
You know, I started as a highschool teacher and an academic
department chair, so I'm workingwith 12th graders all day.
But I noticed the number onething they wanted to talk about
was friendship issues, not evenromantic stuff, not their grades
, friend stuff.
(27:19):
And then I left that world andI got into public relations and
I'm working with these sharp,accomplished women and then I
learned oh, behind closed doorsthey also have some friendship
stuff.
So it's something that I'vealways been attuned to.
But I grew curious and now I'vebeen leveraging my background
in education to study what theresearch has to say about
women's connection.
So it's always been somethingthat my eyes see that my heart's
(27:39):
felt deeply.
So I'm so grateful now to bedoing this as my work and I
totally agree with you that it'sreally sweet when something's
very aligned and hopefully it'ssomething I keep going.
But I've learned that thelonger you live, the more you
are surprised.
So who knows what it will be 20years from now?
Who?
Speaker 1 (27:57):
knows.
I love that.
I love that.
Thank you for sharing.
And last question is somethingI ask everybody, and that is
Danielle if you were sitting onthe couch and you look over and
there's a version of you 20years younger, what advice would
you give that Danielle?
Speaker 2 (28:13):
Man.
That actually like got meemotional for a second.
I think if I could talk tomyself 20 years ago, I think
that I would tell her um, you'reenough.
You're enough, and not that youdon't have room to improve.
(28:34):
You should always be growing.
But the striving the strivingto be funnier, more likable,
smarter, to be as pretty as theother girls, to be as sharp,
that striving is exhausting andI wish that I could tell her you
really are enough, so always begrowing, but who you've been
(28:57):
designed to be is enough.
That would probably be mymessage.
Speaker 1 (29:03):
Mic drop girl.
I love that.
I love that that's goosebumps.
Mic drop a little tear.
Honestly, that's amazing.
Thank you for sharing that,because I think it's a real
powerful question and it'ssomething we really have to
think about, and so I reallyappreciate the pause before the
answer.
That was amazing, and thank youfor spending time today.
I love seeing you again.
You're so good at what you doWell.
Speaker 2 (29:24):
I appreciate you, thank you for taking the time to
facilitate this conversationand I'm hoping that someone
who's listening they feel moreencouraged to go out there and
to have some sense of agency, tobe the author of their
friendship story and to allowthemselves to be vulnerable and
take the risk to pursue thekinds of friendships that
they've been dreaming of Amazing.
Speaker 1 (29:45):
I love that.
I love that.
Thanks for spending time andwe'll see you in sunny Florida.
Speaker 2 (29:49):
We're not that far apart from each other.
Speaker 1 (29:50):
That's right.
Thank you for having me.
You bet See you soon.
Hey, fearless Friends .
It's Amy Schmidt, and soexcited to be back with you
today with another great guest.
You know I wanted to tell you alittle bit about one of those
F-words that we're going to befacing this week in this episode
, and that F-word is friends.
So we are fearlessly facingfriendships and you know, after
50, it can be a challenge.
So today's guest is afriendship expert.
(00:21):
I've had her before on my showand I really, really adore her
and her work and I'm so excitedto introduce her, or reintroduce
her, back to the show.
Danielle Bayer Jackson is awomen's relational health
educator who speaks nationallyabout the science of women's
platonic connections.
She's the director of theWomen's Relational Health
Institute and also the author ofFighting for Our Friendships
(00:44):
the Science and Art of Conflictand Connection in Women's
Relationships.
All right, let's dig into this,because this is a big one.
So, danielle, welcome to theshow.
Well, here she is.
I mean, this is a woman thatwhat I talked about in the intro
.
She's like a friendship rockstar.
(01:06):
Danielle, welcome, I'm so gladto be back.
Thank you for having me.
Yeah, you know, we weretogether.
We just talked a little bitbefore we started recording.
We were together years ago Idid a live show and actually I
think it was 2020, because Ithink we were amidst all the
chaos of COVID, yeah, and youwere on and you are just, you're
really a shining star and Ihave to say to everybody
(01:28):
listening and for those of youthat are watching, it's fun to
watch Danielle, because you'vedone so much and you are a busy
mom and wife as well, right.
Speaker 2 (01:37):
That is true.
That is true, but by the graceof God I'm still here.
Speaker 1 (01:41):
And we just keep rocking it.
You gotta keep rocking it hereand we just keep rocking it.
Yeah, you got to keep rockingit, yeah.
And I'd love seeing some of thecampaigns you worked on.
You worked on one gosh, was itaround the holidays with Turkey,
or something like that a coupleof years ago.
Yeah, we've done.
Speaker 2 (01:52):
Butterball and Bumble and Amazon Prime and so many
cool opportunities which youknow is.
It's kind of interesting towatch because when I first got
into the business of helpingwomen with their friendships, I
mean I was quite literally kindof chuckled at when I first
announced that I was going totake that career direction.
So to see a growing interest inour relational health makes me
(02:16):
really happy and I'm so honoredto be a part of that movement.
Speaker 1 (02:19):
Isn't it amazing?
I do think you know.
I read a statistic and you'regoing to know more about the
science of this than me being anexpert but 32% of people.
There was a statistic aroundloneliness and it was specific
to women and this was more ofwomen 50 plus, but there was
like a 32% increase in cognitivedecline and dementia and heart
(02:41):
disease because of lonelinessand dementia and heart disease
because of loneliness.
Speaker 2 (02:46):
Yeah, yeah, you know.
I hope that's one of manyreasons why people begin to have
a sense of urgency aroundleaning into and tending to the
quality of their platonicrelationships.
I think all too often or atleast 10 years ago people kind
of saw friendships as somethingyou push into the margins I'll
(03:07):
get to it when I've got time.
We see it as something tooengaging when we want somebody
to just hang out with and dosomething with recreationally
and that's all fun and those arebenefits of friendship.
But when you start to seeresearch around how it has a
direct impact on your physical,mental and emotional health, I
hope that encourages us to tendto it with a little more fire, a
little more urgency, a littlemore urgency around it.
Speaker 1 (03:29):
Well, you know, think back to those necklaces.
I wrote about friendships over50 a long time ago on a blog and
it was remember those necklacesthat were like half said best
and the other one said or BFF,or whatever, and you can one
wore one and the other onemiddle school, high school or
whatever, and you can one moreone and the other one middle
school, high school, whatever.
You know, I think we put a lotof pressure on ourselves to find
, like, like we need to have abest friend, like you know, that
(03:52):
that friend that we're, we seeat the, at the yoga class, we're
like, I don't know if I reallywant to, I don't know if she can
be a best friend.
We don't have to have a millionbest friends, right?
Speaker 2 (04:00):
Yeah, yeah, that's true.
The latest study I've seen saidthat 40% of people do not have
a best friend, and hey, I get it, especially for women.
The research tells us thatwomen are more dyadic than men,
meaning we tend to split offone-to-one and that is one of
the reasons why our friendshipshave more platonic intimacy,
because it's just me and you inthis private vault where we're
(04:24):
engaging in mutualself-disclosure.
So to some degree I understandthe desire to be intimately
known by another woman and wehave this unique, deep
relationship.
That is true.
But I also see what you seearound that pressure to find the
person.
I do think it makes us secretlyaudition women who we encounter
(04:45):
.
I do think that for some womenI've heard almost a sense of
shame around not having one,like what's wrong with me, that
I don't have a bestie.
Then we're forcing it withpeople who aren't meant to be
and we're discounting people whocould still offer value to our
lives but they're not theperfect package.
So I agree with you that it canbe problematic, depending on if
(05:07):
we're holding it to like thishigh aspirational thing, because
we might be missing out on alot of the good stuff.
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1 (05:15):
Well, let's walk through this scenario because I
know a lot of women that arelistening are going through this
.
So I got to be honest.
I've moved 13 times and this isanother move here where I'm
sitting today, you know.
So I've moved a lot and with myfamily and my husband and I was
always that person that wouldbe walking in with, like feeling
like I'm wearing that sash thatsays talk to me, I'm new, like
new kid on the block, you knowalways and and it at times it
(05:49):
gets really hard and I have tobe honest with you We'll talk
about this a little later butit's gotten harder for me and I
have more confidence than I'veever had.
But yet, boy, I still got towalk into new communities now
and feel that, so walk methrough.
Somebody that's listening,that's maybe in a new community
and they're going to a PTAmeeting and they're walking into
that auditorium you know how itis and you see women that are
mingling and they're talking andthey're laughing and all of a
sudden, you that's walking inthat doesn't know anybody is
getting a rash, their heartstarts palpitating.
(06:09):
You know the whole thing.
How can we get to be our bestconfident self, walking in a new
situation like that, searchingfor some new friends.
Speaker 2 (06:20):
The first is a mindset thing.
So I have some technical stuffbut a mindset thing and that is
almost see being the new personas an advantage.
So often we see it as adisadvantage.
So we think, oh, I'm coming inlate, I'm behind everybody
else's.
Their friendships are alreadyformed.
I hear that a lot.
Well, everybody else alreadyhas.
(06:41):
So, I already see myself ascoming in as a loss, but what if
I saw it as a benefit?
I'm here to experiment.
I'm here to establish some newties.
I feel like when you're new,that's kind of an end.
I mean, you can easily go toanyone and say I'm new here.
What do you recommend?
People love giving their twocents.
A lot of people actuallygravitate toward the newbie,
right?
I know I do, and I'm like girl.
(07:02):
Let me tell you everything youneed to know, right?
So start to see.
Okay, could this be anadvantage?
My position, a person peoplewant to cling to and share with,
and I have so many questions,so there's actually something
kind of you have kind of an edgebeing new.
That's an advantage.
The second thing and this is atip that comes from Dr Marissa
Franco, who's the author of thebook Platonic, but she always
(07:23):
says expect to be liked.
There's something known as thegosh.
What is it?
There's this idea around oh,the acceptance prophecy, and the
idea is that people who expectto be accepted typically are,
and those who are anticipatingrejection typically get it.
And the way this works isbecause if I expect that I'm
(07:46):
going to be liked when I'm here,I've probably got my eyes up.
I'm probably unafraid to enterinto conversations.
I'm laughing introducing myselfbecause I know that you're
going to like me, but if Iexpect you're going to reject me
.
Whether it's because I thinkthat other women are jealous
which I've heard women saywhether I think that there's
just something about me that'snot likable right, the people
(08:06):
here are mean.
I go in with my head down.
I'm engaging in avoidantbehaviors like just kind of
scrolling on the phone.
I'm not getting intoconversations because I don't
want to be a burden.
So now others walk away likewow, she didn't talk much, she
wasn't smiling, and so it'salmost a fulfilling prophecy.
So I think those two thingscould be really helpful in kind
of shifting the dynamics in theroom.
Speaker 1 (08:29):
I like that because you actually, in the first
scenario, you kind of reframethat and you kind of walk in
feeling like a rock star, right.
You kind of feel like, hey,they want to know me, they want
to know me.
And from the other part of that, women are sharers, right, we
love to share.
So you're right, ask them.
You know what's the stuff to doaround here, what's the?
Oh, those were two great hintsright there.
(08:50):
That eases that a little bit,because you know how that is.
I mean, it's intimidating, yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:55):
Yeah, absolutely, and I get it.
I've been there too.
I'd like to think I'm aconfident, self-assured,
charismatic woman, and there aretimes where I'm like, okay,
like a little anxiety bubblingup.
But I have to coach myself.
That's a big part of it too.
If you're thinking thateverybody else has got it
figured out and you don't, no,we all are trying to figure this
out.
Maybe we're confident in somescenarios more than others, but
(09:16):
I've got to coach myself throughin the moment and tell myself
the same things I just shared.
Okay, I got this.
I'm just going to ask questions.
There's probably some nicepeople here.
I just need to show up.
I've got to talk myself through, walking in with my head up and
with a smile just as much asanyone, and typically it tends
to have positive outcomes.
Speaker 1 (09:33):
Oh, I love that.
I love that, and we do.
We have to.
You know, really, that thatinner cheerleader has to come
out and that inner critic isalways there and that's so noisy
.
But we've got to have thatinner cheerleader, we've got to
walk in.
And I don't know if you agreewith me on this or not, but you
know it's kind of a worst casescenario thing.
I say this so often.
I raised three kids.
They're all grown now, but Istill say to them what's the
(09:54):
worst case scenario?
I think we have to, you know,kind of adopt that mindset too.
What's the worst case?
They don't like me, all right.
Speaker 2 (10:02):
Yeah, that's great.
You know, when I'm working withclients, that's one of the
things that we pause to talkabout because they'll say, well,
I just, I don't know, it's justfeel so awkward and I'll ask
okay, what is the worst thingyou're expecting to happen?
Like, what's the thing thatyou're hoping doesn't happen?
I don't know that I walk up tothe table and they give me a
dirty look or look at me likeI'm stupid for talking, and I'll
(10:23):
say, okay, let's say they do,because if we're being honest,
that's totally a possibility.
Then what?
And then often the client willsay, well, I mean, I guess I
just walk away.
That's right.
So sometimes lean into thething you're scared about
happening to give you anopportunity to brainstorm how
you'd respond, and we find thatmore than 90% of the time, oh,
(10:46):
it's survivable.
Yeah, deeply uncomfortable, butsurvivable, and it kind of
takes some of the power out ofthat worst case scenario.
Speaker 1 (10:53):
Great point, great point.
Let's talk a little bit aboutthe power of the internet and
these virtual friendships.
I mean, it's kind of crazy.
Like you know, we talk aboutloneliness and we talk about all
this, but all of a suddenthere's, you know, people that
are having engaging online.
They may not even met them inperson, but yet they consider
them a friend because they're anonline friend.
(11:14):
I mean, are these real?
Are these really sustainablefriendships?
Speaker 2 (11:19):
Yeah, you know it's tough, because I know that a lot
with the ubiquity of digitalconnections, when people are
going to start forming what theyidentify as friendships, and
who am I to say that's a realfriend, that's not?
I will say this some things forpeople to consider.
The first is do you find thatthe way that you're engaging
digitally with people, is itsupplementing your friendship
(11:41):
landscape or is it replacingyour friendship landscape?
That's the main question,because I'm not here to qualify
your friendship, but that's abig question.
If I find that I'm turning totexting and calling and DMing
you and this and that, and I'mliking and commenting and
sharing and I'm like, yeah, yeah, I keep up with my friends and
that's the whole of ourinteraction, there's something
(12:03):
wrong with that, assuming thisperson's not a long distance
friend, there's something wrongwith that.
So it should be supplemental,it should not be a substitution.
That's something to look at,because I also wonder how that
leans into social anxiety,because I'm not out with people,
so now I'm scared going outwith people.
So you know.
So it's just.
It becomes like this cycleRight, and and and again.
I know some people will say,well, I use it because you know
(12:25):
I'm never going to see thisperson there across the country.
There are so many benefits, youknow.
Thank God for the internet.
It's creating certaincommunities for people who don't
have that where they physicallylive.
Maybe you have a certain faithor very niche interests, or a
child with a chronic illness andthese people get it and they
don't live by you.
Thank God for that.
That you can feel affirmed andget support and be a resource.
(12:46):
That's one aspect of yourcommunity.
You still need people in personand so that would be my main
thing to help people kind ofgauge their relationship with
social media connections is isit supplementing or is it
replacing?
Because that makes all thedifference.
Speaker 1 (13:03):
Oh, supplementing or replacing, oh, I like that.
I like that a lot.
Let's talk about this wholereciprocating thing.
It's a thing.
Now, you know, I'm in my 50s,so you know, you invite someone
over for dinner and then there'sthis whole.
I think we were raised this way.
Gen Xers were like, okay, wellthen they need to reciprocate.
You know, this wholereciprocating thing, is that
still a thing?
Is it?
(13:23):
Should it be like a scorecard,should it not?
Let's, let's walk through that,okay.
So first, I want to say thatthis is probably deep sky, heavy
sky.
Speaker 2 (13:35):
There's so much there , you know.
First, I want to say that if Ihad to rank the top three issues
women bring to me, reciprocityis on that list, and that's
consistent with the researchthat finds that that is
something that women deeplyvalue in their same-sex
friendships.
Reciprocity, everything equal,everything balanced.
(13:56):
I do wonder if some people area bit more conscientious than
others.
When we look at the five theycall them the big five
personality traits, one domainis conscientiousness, which
means you're very aware of othersituations and you feel very
dutiful and systematic andorganized, and so a part of that
is feeling like showing up forothers, keeping your word.
(14:17):
I found that those people aremore attuned to like hey, I did
this.
Now the right thing to do, orthe obvious, nice, polite,
mannerable thing to do is theyinvite me.
I think people who are moreconscientious sense that and
others might not.
Okay, and the last thing I'llsay is you know, to that person
who's like I really wantreciprocity If I can offer a
little bit of ease and insight,is totally still desire that,
(14:41):
because friendships should feelbalanced and I'm never wondering
if I'm more invested than theother person.
100%.
A couple of things to offerrelief.
The first is look for otherways the person might be
contributing, because a lot ofus are familiar with love
languages.
Maybe I'm showing up in acertain way and because I value
that, I'm looking for it LikeI'm giving it, so I want it back
(15:02):
.
But is it possible that myfriend showing up by being
highly attentive to the things Ishare, she's following up hey,
how was that doctor'sappointment?
Are you doing good?
We laugh together.
Is she thinking she iscontributing?
But it just doesn't mirror mine.
So I'm dissatisfied.
So look at that.
Is she giving or not giving theway you like?
The second step would be tellher the way you want her to give
.
Gosh, darn it, you havepermission.
(15:24):
So often we are dissatisfied butthen we think I shouldn't have
to say it.
It should be obvious.
I shouldn't have to say it.
But what I've noticed is wedon't do that in any other
relational context.
We want something from our kids, we say it.
We want something from ourhusband.
We're like babe.
We want something from our kids, we say it.
We want something from ourhusband.
We're like babe, we need totalk.
We are not feeling good withour employee.
We have performance reviews,dedicated time to talk about our
(15:48):
progress, but for some reason,we believe that in a friendship
with another woman, she shouldjust know that and then, when
she doesn't, I'm silentlypenalizing her for it, and
before I know it, we're driftingaway.
So package it.
The last thing I'll say ispackage it as an invitation
instead of an accusation.
So instead of you never share,you never invite me.
No one's going to respond wellto that.
(16:09):
I wouldn't.
But if it's like, hey, I know,the last couple of times we got
together, I had you come overhere, but I definitely want
things to be balanced.
So I'm happy to come to yourplace.
I know that you're a good cook.
I want to put my feet up and Iwant you to make me your special
pot roast.
It's playful, but my subtext isthe same.
It's your turn, but I'm sayingit because I want more of you.
(16:31):
I just would like it to look alittle different, and the right
people want the data on how tolove you well.
Speaker 1 (16:38):
The wrong people will become indignant and that says
something Danielle, you are arock star.
You are a rock star.
I love that Invitation overaccusation.
I wrote it down because thoseare two powerful words.
So true.
I love that because that wholereciprocity thing it's big, so
you just hit that out of theballpark, for so many people are
going.
Oh okay, yeah, it's my turn.
(16:59):
Yeah, oh yeah.
I'm just going to text rightnow as I'm listening to this.
Let's talk about this wholebreakup thing.
This came up over the summerwith one of my really good
friends and I think we were outfor a walk and she said Aimee,
you got to have a show on how tobreak up with friends, because
it's a real thing, we put a lotof time, a lot of effort, all of
(17:20):
that, and I think we need to atleast from my perspective.
I feel like we need to giveourselves that gift of grace of
like okay, if this isn't workinganymore, if it's not blooming
at this particular season, it'sokay, we can break up.
But man, it's hard.
So give us some tips on how togo about it.
What are kind of the signals ofall right, this, this is not a
sustainable friendship, it's notworking for either of us.
(17:42):
It's time to break up.
Walk us through that.
Speaker 2 (17:45):
Yeah, so first you know that happens.
The research says that we tendto replace half of our friends
every seven years.
Speaker 1 (17:53):
Like like when our hair changes every seven years.
Come on, Seriously, I know thatcycle of seven.
Speaker 2 (17:57):
I've even heard like your taste buds change every
seven years or something, sothere's something about that
number seven right.
But wow, I hope that that showsus that that there is this
natural pruning that ishappening.
So if you're feeling ashamedabout the friendship not working
out which I hear from a lot ofwomen they feel guilty or what's
wrong with me that I can't keepa friendship.
I see a lot of shame in that orif you're holding onto it for
(18:21):
reasons of desperation way longpast its expiration date,
they're supposed to evolve Now.
On the same side, I want to saybecause I've also worked with
several women who are leaving atthe sign of any discomfort or
inconvenience Now is the issuereally you don't know how to
navigate conflict really well,that's something else.
If, when you look at lots ofyour friendships, it ended when
(18:43):
you got overwhelmed by thethings that were bothering you
and you said nothing, you getoffended easily.
So some of this is what's yourcapacity for friction and
discomfort?
Let's look at that.
But assuming all that stuff'sgood and it really is time to
let go, some indicators might beif you find that you are
depleted after you guys spendtime together and I'm not
(19:06):
talking like I'm so tired fromlaughing so hard You're
exhausted.
You're exhausted.
Whether she complains the wholetime didn't ask about you.
She's talking about thattraumatic thing again, and it's
the only thing we talk about.
It is tiring to get together.
That says something If you findthat you don't like who you are
in the friendship, becausefriendships activate different
(19:29):
sides of ourselves.
So if I'm thinking man, I likewho I am in other dynamics, but
when we come together I don'tknow, I don't like who I am.
I find myself being tense orwalking on eggshells.
I find myself gossiping morethan normal.
I find myself getting a littlesnarky, but I don't do that with
other people, but when I getwith her I'm snarky.
Look at that.
That says something.
(19:49):
Are you growing here right?
If you find yourself fearfulthat if you were your full self
or if you spoke up fully, you'dbe penalized in some way?
She operates in a very punitiveway.
That's too great a cost.
That's too great a cost.
And finally, if you find thatthe only reason you're staying
(20:10):
is because you've been friendsfor so long, that's it.
I think that's something worthlooking at too, because she's
taken up the space that somebodyelse could be in.
I'm not saying it won't bepainful, I'm not saying it won't
cause discomfort, but those aresome indicators to look at that
.
Maybe it might be time torelease that relationship.
I love that and that's reallytreating, to release that
relationship.
Speaker 1 (20:28):
I love that and that's really treating, it's
giving ourselves a gift, it'sloving ourself.
It's taking the time ofself-reflection, self-awareness,
actually stepping aside offthat crazy hamster wheel and
looking at okay, how is thisfriendship going?
Henry Cloud wrote a great bookI'm sure you've read it
Necessary Endings, and I thinkthat, like you said at the
(20:50):
beginning, kind of that pruningthing, there are times when
there's necessary endingsbecause you're moving on, you're
growing in a different way andyou kind of you know, in that
friendship too, that you have toend.
For those reasons that youmentioned I can think of.
You know people on the top ofmy head I don't have many, but
there's a few that you feel likeyou're doing all the work or
(21:11):
you feel like you're, or you dowalk away a little deflated.
Those are tough.
Those are tough things to do,though it's tough to break up.
Speaker 2 (21:19):
Yeah, oh, it definitely is.
And and you know I say this toobecause I know some people are
can be kind of flippant aboutfriendship endings.
Well, you know what?
Well, now I'm cutting her off.
I'm done with that.
And I just want to say, forthose who are having trouble
with it but know it's time, I'mwith you Because we're not just
saying goodbye to the bad stuff,you're also about to release
(21:41):
the good stuff too.
That's what makes it sodifficult.
So I'm not just.
Two years ago I had a friendshipthat sunsetted and I felt a lot
of embarrassment around it, ifI'm being honest, because I
thought here I am doing thiswork and I can't make it work.
So I felt the same things, andthe reason it was so hard is,
even though this person wassaying and doing things that
(22:02):
were not okay and broke my trust.
I also was really sad, becausewe have inside jokes, we know
each other's children.
Because we have inside jokes,we know each other's children.
She has my back and hasinspired me in a lot of ways,
but it didn't feel safe and soit was complicated and it was
difficult, and that's oftengoing to happen with women's
friendships, because theresearch shows that we integrate
(22:23):
our women friends into ourlives to the degree of a sibling
men to the degree of a cousin.
So it is going to be hurtfulwhen this ends, because you're
my sister, you're not just myfriend.
Speaker 1 (22:34):
Yeah, yeah, oh, well said, let's talk introverts and
extroverts.
I have three kids.
I have two very big extrovertsthat are kind of bookending,
kind of a middle one that's alittle more introverted.
Do introverts tend to kind ofgravitate to other introverts?
Is it better for an introvertto maybe you know gravitate more
towards extroverts?
Is there any science aroundthat?
(22:55):
That's so interesting.
Speaker 2 (22:57):
You know, I've heard both ways.
So I've heard some introvertswho enjoy people who can kind of
move at their same pace.
They feel comfortable, theyfeel like the other person just
gets it.
I've also seen a lot of peoplemake jokes around how introverts
make friends by attaching to anextrovert and they kind of do
all the work for them.
You know, I think something tokeep in mind if you are an
introvert is one is don't thinkthat you have to pretend to be
(23:19):
an extrovert to make a bunch offriends.
That's not true.
Be yourself.
However, there is research thatshows that when introverts
behave in a little bit more ofan extroverted way, they do
report a mood boost.
Now, this is short term, butthey do report feeling good when
they act a little bit moreextroverted.
So take that tip into thefriend making world.
It might be helpful to you, butstill be authentic to who you
(23:42):
are.
So some tips I would say ifyou're trying to like, form new
friendships as an introvert istry to do things that are in a
space that's more comfortable toyou, right?
If you don't like parties, whyare you going to a big old
gathering to make friends?
You don't have to.
What are spaces that feel alittle safer?
Have control over that.
Let yourself go for a shorttime period.
So set a goal of hey, I'm goingto have two deep conversations
(24:03):
with two people and then I'mgoing to let myself go and then
let myself go home and then plansomething nice to go home to,
to relax and to unwind.
Right, if you do that, you didgreat.
But you don't have tooverextend yourself in order to
make and keep friends.
You do have to step outside thebox, because it's a
relationship, but it's okay toto honor your energy.
Speaker 1 (24:25):
Yeah, that's great, that's great.
So I've got on Daniel Byard.
Jackson Byard rhymes with tired.
Now I'm going to alwaysremember to say that correctly.
You know, you've got a podcastout there too, right, the Friend
Forward podcast.
Speaker 2 (24:37):
Yes, I do, we've been having that for maybe, oh my
gosh, five years, Gosh, maybe,like starting today.
Five years and we just reallydig into the complexities of
women's friendships.
What does the science have tosay about the unique ways that
women cooperate, communicate andengage in conflict?
That's our jam.
Speaker 1 (24:55):
Yeah, I love it.
You also have a book out right,fighting for Our Friendships
the Science and Art of Conflictand Connection Ooh, two big C
words right there in women'srelationships.
And you can find that anywhere.
Can you find?
Well, I'll put it in theepisode.
Speaker 2 (25:06):
Yeah, that's anywhere you get books.
It's in Barnes and Nobles andTargetcom and all the things
fighting for our friendships.
And you know it was just ourway of trying to explain the
mechanics of women's friendships.
So that's, the first half ofthe book is more analysis and
then the second half isapplication.
So talking through nine ofwomen's most pressing platonic
(25:28):
conflicts, most pressingplatonic conflicts, and my goal
is just to help somebody enjoymore satisfaction in their
female friendships.
Speaker 1 (25:35):
That's the goal.
So awesome, so awesome.
I'm going to link that all inthe episode notes.
So before we leave, I've gottwo questions for you, and the
first one is kind of a personalquestion.
I'm curious if I was to askyour mom, danielle, like when
you were 10 and 12, walking themiddle school hallways yeah, I
know You're like, oh man, whatis Amy going to?
ask right now no one's everasked me that I know You're not
ready for this one.
Would your mom say, man, shewas always that girl Like she
(25:59):
had a million friends, she kindof had a posse.
She was that friendship girl.
Yeah, I know, take a deepbreath.
Speaker 2 (26:06):
I'm laughing because I'm actually envisioning my mom
laughing at that.
I was very social.
Yes, I don't think I was anawesome friend.
My fifth grade teacher calledmy mom to tell on me because we
formed a Spice Girls club and Itold some of the girls they
(26:27):
couldn't be in it becausethere's only five Spice Girls
and my mom immediately made mego back to class, disband that
group, and she was likeeverybody can be in the group or
in no group at all.
You know, so she was alwaysthere to guide me, so I've
learned a lot of lessons sincethen.
I'd like to think I love that.
Speaker 1 (26:44):
I love that.
Thanks for sharing that.
You know, for people listening,when did your passion and
purpose really align?
I mean, you know, for me I kindof found that a little bit
later.
You know, and I feel thatthat's an intersection there
that when we find it, that'swhen the magic happens.
Speaker 2 (26:59):
I totally, I totally agree with you.
It was a journey.
You know, I started as a highschool teacher and an academic
department chair, so I'm workingwith 12th graders all day.
But I noticed the number onething they wanted to talk about
was friendship issues, not evenromantic stuff, not their grades
, friend stuff.
(27:19):
And then I left that world andI got into public relations and
I'm working with these sharp,accomplished women and then I
learned oh, behind closed doorsthey also have some friendship
stuff.
So it's something that I'vealways been attuned to.
But I grew curious and now I'vebeen leveraging my background
in education to study what theresearch has to say about
women's connection.
So it's always been somethingthat my eyes see that my heart's
(27:39):
felt deeply.
So I'm so grateful now to bedoing this as my work and I
totally agree with you that it'sreally sweet when something's
very aligned and hopefully it'ssomething I keep going.
But I've learned that thelonger you live, the more you
are surprised.
So who knows what it will be 20years from now?
Who?
Speaker 1 (27:57):
knows.
I love that.
I love that.
Thank you for sharing.
And last question is somethingI ask everybody, and that is
Danielle if you were sitting onthe couch and you look over and
there's a version of you 20years younger, what advice would
you give that Danielle?
Speaker 2 (28:13):
Man.
That actually like got meemotional for a second.
I think if I could talk tomyself 20 years ago, I think
that I would tell her um, you'reenough.
You're enough, and not that youdon't have room to improve.
(28:34):
You should always be growing.
But the striving the strivingto be funnier, more likable,
smarter, to be as pretty as theother girls, to be as sharp,
that striving is exhausting andI wish that I could tell her you
really are enough, so always begrowing, but who you've been
(28:57):
designed to be is enough.
That would probably be mymessage.
Speaker 1 (29:03):
Mic drop girl.
I love that.
I love that that's goosebumps.
Mic drop a little tear.
Honestly, that's amazing.
Thank you for sharing that,because I think it's a real
powerful question and it'ssomething we really have to
think about, and so I reallyappreciate the pause before the
answer.
That was amazing, and thank youfor spending time today.
I love seeing you again.
You're so good at what you doWell.
Speaker 2 (29:24):
I appreciate you, thank you for taking the time to
facilitate this conversationand I'm hoping that someone
who's listening they feel moreencouraged to go out there and
to have some sense of agency, tobe the author of their
friendship story and to allowthemselves to be vulnerable and
take the risk to pursue thekinds of friendships that
they've been dreaming of Amazing.
Speaker 1 (29:45):
I love that.
I love that.
Thanks for spending time andwe'll see you in sunny Florida.
Speaker 2 (29:49):
We're not that far apart from each other.
Speaker 1 (29:50):
That's right.
Thank you for having me.
You bet See you soon.
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