April 11, 2025 • 31 mins
Jim Burns returns to discuss how couples can reinvent their marriage after children leave home, exploring the unexpected challenges and opportunities of the empty nest phase.
• Empty nest can be challenging as couples suddenly have more time together after years of child-focused living
• The "gray divorce" phenomenon is increasing among those over 50, often due to neglected marriages during child-raising years
• Communication needs reinvention in each marriage phase, particularly when entering the empty nest
• Four powerful questions to discuss: What's working? What's not working? What's confusing? What's missing?
• Creating a dream list together helps couples envision and plan their next chapter
• "Thank therapy" transforms relationships through intentionally practicing gratitude
• Emotional intimacy precedes physical intimacy, requiring intentional effort from both partners
• Three reflective questions: Do I like who I'm becoming? Is my heart for God growing? Am I giving my spouse only emotional scraps?
• Couples may spend more years together after children leave than they did raising children
For more information on empty nest marriage and Jim's resources, visit Homeward.com and check out his books and podcasts "Homeward with Jim Burns" and "Embracing Your Season."
Connect with Jim Here
----------------------------------------
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Ready to FEARLESSLY FACE all the F WORDS – be inspired and encouraged?
Get a copy of Amy’s Best selling book: CANNONBALL! FEARLESSLY Facing Midlife and Beyond here
Fearlessly Facing Fifty and Beyond has over 200 episodes with inspiration and stories to age fearlessly and connect confidently to others thriving at midlife and beyond.
Make sure to share with friends and family and would love if you could leave a review. There are so many shows out there floating around and if you are finding value in the Fearlessly Facing Fifty podcast share it with the world – a review means so much.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey, fearless friends , it's Amy Schmidt and I am
excited to be back with today.
Our effort is faith and we aredigging into fearlessly facing
faith in our relationships.
And you know what?
Today's guest is a prettysuperhuman.
I've had him on before and wetalked about emerging adults and
relationships with adult kids.
(00:20):
Today we're going to be digginginto marriage as empty nesters.
Kids.
Today we're going to be digginginto marriage as empty nesters,
and that's a big topic becausewe all know relationships change
.
So today on the show is JimBurns.
He's the founder of Homeward.
He speaks to thousands ofpeople around the world each
year and has more than 3 millionresources in print in over 20
(00:40):
languages.
I'm so excited to welcome Jimback to the show.
So, jim, welcome to FearlesslyFacing 50 and Beyond, as we
fearlessly face our faith andrelationships.
Well, fearless friends, we'reback and, as I said in the
introduction, this is a repeatguest for me.
(01:03):
I absolutely adore this human.
I've never met him in personbut we've had a conversation.
I follow everything that hedoes and they do over at
Homeward and I just think he'samazing.
And today we're digging intokind of marriage in the empty
nest.
So, jim Burns, welcome back.
Speaker 2 (01:23):
Amy, it's so good to be with you and I'm actually a
big fan of yours and so lovebeing with you anytime.
I love it, I'm yours hereanytime.
Speaker 1 (01:31):
I love it and you know I said to Jim before we
started recording.
I said, yeah, my husband saidso, amy, who do you have on
today?
And I'm like, oh, threeinterviews.
You know we usually do three onWednesdays.
And oh, jim Burns is coming on.
What are you talking about, am?
And I'm like, oh, we're talkingabout marriage in the empty
nest.
He's like, oh man, all right,I'll make a dinner reservation
so he knows that we're going tohave some conversations, some
(01:52):
great, tangible takeaways forall of our listeners and viewers
.
So first thing is, empty nestis tough anyway.
Let's be honest, right, it'stough.
Mine are grown and flown.
I know you've lived throughthis.
There is a part of therelationship.
Now I've been married for 32years Some listeners, it'll vary
, certainly but all of a suddenyou're at this point where
(02:14):
you're kind of looking at eachother at the dinner table and
you're like, wow, you've beenlike spinning in different
orbits for so long, keeping allthese plates in the air, and now
you're together and you're like, wow, okay, who is this person?
Speaker 2 (02:26):
Yeah, no, that's exactly right, I mean, and that
was for Kathy and me too.
Here I speak on this, I writeon this, but yet when Heidi, our
youngest, went away to college,wow, we got back home and we
kind of looked at each otheracross the table and said, well,
what are we going to do withthe rest of our life?
So we hadn't prepared.
And I find, amy, that a lot ofpeople have buried things under
(02:46):
the mat about their marriage,especially because they've been
busy trying to get teenagers outof the house, get the towels
off the floor, deal with allthose other issues, and if the
people have not worked on theirmarriage prior, they seem to
have a really tough landing intothe empty nest.
If they have been working on it, it seems to be a little bit
easier.
For Kathy and I, we just simplyweren't prepared.
(03:07):
I always say that Kathy was thesun.
The girls I have all daughterswere the kind of planets
revolving around the sun.
At home I'm revolving aroundthe sun and all of a sudden she
didn't have a job, so she didn'tknow what to do, and I didn't
exactly know what to do either.
So we started experiencing theempty nest syndrome and in that
we realized that affected ourmarriage.
So we need to reboot themarriage.
(03:30):
We need to reinvent some of thedisciplines that we actually
knew better to do and thathelped us greatly.
Speaker 1 (03:36):
Yeah, I mean we do have to do better and be better
and we had that same thing andyou know, I mean you have all
this time together.
Now it's like, wow, how do youuse this time to really you know
?
And certainly, what is?
I don't know the exactstatistic, but isn't it more
than 50% of marriages?
They call it gray divorce.
Speaker 2 (03:57):
Yeah, you know that's the in this demographic.
The demographic of 50 and overis the biggest demographic of
divorce right now and we didn'tsee that literally 20 years ago.
But we are seeing that todayand I think that's because we
weren't putting energy into ourmarriage.
We were putting energy justinto the kids, being
child-focused, and that's not agood thing.
And then what happens isbecause you have all this time,
you've got to figure out justhow to do it.
(04:18):
We were with a couple thisweekend I was speaking in Sun
Valley, idaho, suffering, and wewere at their house and they're
great friends of ours, are onour board and she goes.
He's driving me crazy becausehe just follows me around and I
have things to do.
My husband is so busy this is aman of high capacity and does
great things with work but he'sjust following around.
Then he's rearranging thedishwasher when I put him in and
(04:42):
it's driving me crazy, jim.
And again, we just don't know.
We have to reinvent the way wedo marriage.
We have to reinvent the way wedeal with our kids.
We have to reinvent a lot ofstuff and we're going to be
married as empty nesters,sometimes for many of us longer
than we were with kids in thehouse.
That's what's remarkable.
Speaker 1 (05:02):
Wow, I didn't really think about that, but that is so
true.
Yeah, if you think, about it.
Speaker 2 (05:05):
The average empty nest is 48.9 years.
That's when you go into theempty nest that wasn't for Kathy
and me, but it is for a lot ofand then you start looking at it
and you go, wow, if you live tobe kind of the average age,
you're in the empty nest a longtime.
Speaker 1 (05:19):
So wow, that's really .
I didn't even think about that,I just wrote it down.
So let's walk through that.
I can relate to that.
I'm sure a lot of peoplelistening can.
You know you're kind of feelinglike he's following you around.
You kind of feel like you're,maybe, you know, getting stuff
out of the laundry and want towatch TV and he's right there
Like what can we do?
What are some tangibletakeaways?
This might be personal,actually, you know, let's just
(05:46):
talk about what are some thingswe can do.
Do we need to initiatediscussions?
Speaker 2 (05:48):
boundaries.
What is it?
Yeah, no, I think.
No, I think you have to talkabout it.
Here's what I'm hoping happens.
Here's, let's talk about theevenings these days, because it
used to be that, you know, wewere still running after kids
and doing all this.
So you know, how do we want todo some of this?
What's a great evening for you?
What are your needs?
If you're still like Kathylikes to work at night and I'm
(06:08):
pretty much just dust after atime period, and so I had to get
used to the fact that shewasn't going to come in and sit
by me and snuggle.
She was going to go in herlittle office and she teaches a
Bible study on Tuesdays, and Ithink she does it most nights.
She's's working on that stuffor she does our finances, and I
had to realize that, oh, I needto come up with some other
things to do, and that was agood thing.
(06:30):
So we actually had thatconversation and she said do you
want me just to stop what I'mdoing or redo it?
And I said you know what?
Not necessarily, but we hadsome good conversations about
that.
I find that that's the secret.
The secret is what do you need?
What do you want, what'sworking, what's not working,
what's confusing?
You know there's four questionsthat I like to ask.
(06:50):
You know what's working?
Um, in the empty nest, what'snot working in the empty nest,
uh, what's confusing and what'smissing?
And I, we've had thatconversation.
It's funny Cause I sometimes dothat at marriage conferences.
I'll say that and then I'll saywhy don't you take a?
You know, get in your ascouples and say it?
Kathy always wanders up to meand goes well, let's us do it.
(07:11):
I said well, we just did it.
You know, a month ago she goeswe need to do it again, but I
find that those are be hurtfuland so we just don't do it.
And you know, communication is alearned trait.
You know, neil Clark Warren isa founder of eHarmony and he's
(07:32):
been a marriage mentor of minefor a long, long time.
He's actually, before he wasthe eHarmony founder guy, he was
a seminary professor onmarriage and he said to me one
day I was talking about Kathyand me I said I'm like my dad
and she's like her mom, and thatwould have been World War III.
And he said well, jim,communication is a learned trait
.
Just like a mentor would say,or a coach, get it together here
(07:54):
, and so we found that we had tolearn how to re-communicate at
each phase of our marriage.
So we were communicating in acertain way when we first got
married and that was both goodand hard because we didn't know
how to do it.
Then the kids come in and nowwe're just trying to juggle and
stay awake while they're doingthe diapers and things like that
.
The next phase, then the teenagephase, is harder for a lot of
(08:15):
marriages in fact, and then whenyou get into the empty nest,
it's a whole reinvention, like Iwas saying.
But the communication style isa whole new invention too, and
what we tend to do then is wejust get set in our ways and we
get lazy and we don't, you know,lean into it.
So even those kinds ofquestions, what's missing?
You know I don't want to haveKathy tell me that I'm being a
(08:36):
louse on this or that, but if Isay that and she says, well, you
know what, what I'd like moreof, and I, you know, and I tell
people all the time look at you.
I was talking to a lady lastweekend in Sun Valley when I was
speaking, and she said myhusband is not spontaneous.
He doesn't know what I want.
He's not being romantic enough,empty nester.
And I said, well, have you toldhim what you need?
(08:57):
And she goes.
Well, no, he's supposed to knowthat I go.
Oh, we men are not that good,right, they don't know, you need
to tell him what you need.
She said well, give me anexample.
I said well, my wife, after allof these years of marriage,
we'd like to go to the moviesand I always hold her hand.
And I think that's kind of cool, holding her hand through the
movies.
I mean, anybody would thinkthat One day she goes.
You know, jim, you always holdmy hand, but I want you to put
(09:21):
my arm around her.
About 30 minutes later my armis dead.
I don't know that.
Sometimes women understand usmen having to go through that
pain.
So I take it off, I kind of goback to holding her hand and she
just takes my hand and moves itaround her shoulders and she
showed me what I needed to do.
Well, guess what, every time Igo to the movies now I've kind
of figured it out my arm isn'tdead and she's getting what she
(09:45):
wants.
But also I'm getting what Iwant because I want to please
her.
I just don't know how to do itand you know it's years ago
somebody wrote a book on.
You know, women are from Marsand men are from Venus and vice
versa.
Speaker 1 (09:54):
I can't remember it.
Speaker 2 (09:55):
Yeah, and you know, we need to have our spouses tell
us what we need.
And with Kathy, sometimes Ineed to be able to say because
she comes in the morning, I'm upreally early.
She gets up early, but not asearly as me, and she'll just
want to chit-chat and she's seenthe news already and she wants
to talk about it.
I'm already into, I'm doing mydevotions, I'm doing work mode
(10:18):
and finally I had to say one day, you know, kathy, do I need to
go?
We have an office at the house.
I don't use it very often, butdo I need to go to the office
because I really need to getthis stuff done?
And yet, at the same time, Ifeel like I'm not showing you
honor.
When you're talking aboutwhat's going on in the war or
whatever it might be, it'simportant to her, it's important
to me, it's just not importantat that moment, right?
(10:39):
So I think it goes back to thatcommunication stuff,
communication Key.
I mean what's working, what'snot working.
Speaker 1 (10:47):
What's?
Confusing and what's missingthose four questions right there
.
I mean that's what we shouldhave conversations about tonight
everybody listening, becausethose are four key things that
can really be helpful.
Speaker 2 (10:58):
I'm going to give a warning, though, amy, that there
are times when people havethose conversations and there's
a fight or two that goes on whenthey say what's missing or
people go.
I can't think of anythingthat's really working, but I
want to tell you what's missing.
Don't do that.
Speaker 1 (11:10):
Yeah, yep, you said something and I read it
somewhere.
These three things Do I likethe person I'm becoming.
Is my heart for God shrinkingor growing?
Am I giving my spouse and mychildren only my emotional
scraps?
Speaker 2 (11:27):
Yeah, that's a big one for me, all three of those.
I actually have that in myjournal.
In fact, just on the other sidehere in the podcast studio I
have those questions kind ofembedded in the journal.
But I know how I'm doing.
If I like the person I'mbecoming, if I'm too busy and I
think a lot of times, even inthe empty nest, we have all this
time now but we tend to filltime without really putting time
(11:50):
and energy into our marriage orwhatever else.
So if I like the person I'mbecoming, I'm probably doing
pretty good.
If I don't like the person I'mbecoming, I'm probably too busy.
And busy people are brokenpeople.
We always talk about busynessas a sign of success, but overly
busy families are broken.
Overly busy marriages arebroken.
In fact, john Mark Comer justsaid and I love this quote hurry
(12:12):
is violence to your soul.
Well, if that's the case,you're not going to like
yourself if you're in that place.
And then the next one for me isso key Is the work of God I'm
doing, destroying the work ofGod in me.
Speaker 1 (12:27):
And.
Speaker 2 (12:28):
I say that as a person who's in ministry, but
another way of saying it is myheart for God growing or
shrinking.
Well, you know what?
My heart for God is usuallygrowing if I'm in a better place
personally on my own, and I canthen be much better for my wife
, kathy.
Right, if my heart is shrinkingand sometimes it's because I'm
just overly busy I remember Iwent on radio years and years
(12:48):
ago and a friend of mine who wasmy accountability partner, I
said, wow, we always ask thatquestion.
I said, well, it's kind ofshrinking right now because I'm
really busy and everybodythought it was wonderful.
There was a million people aday listening to me and blah,
blah, blah.
And he said, jim, if your heartfor God is shrinking, then you
need to get off radio, you needto do whatever it takes.
It was almost like a panic forhim and instead of going, you're
(13:11):
going to work through this.
You're awesome, things are good, and I really appreciated
somebody looking me in the eyeand saying don't let your heart
shrink.
I think too many people makereally poor choices when their
heart's shrinking, and then thatlast one is probably the one I
think about the most.
Am I only giving Kathy myemotional scraps.
Why am I doing that?
I worked all weekend speakingin Sun Valley, got a trip here
(13:35):
in Wisconsin coming up thisweekend.
I'm not going to give them myemotional scraps, so why do I
come home and give Kathy myemotional scraps?
Now again, it's home, it's asanctuary.
Sometimes that happens.
But if we're doing that all thetime and then I even found that
out with my kids when they werein the home that there were
times when I would just pass, Iwould talk to them, I would try
(14:00):
to have a good conversation, butit'd be short because I need to
keep moving on.
That's not what I need to do.
I need to make sure that I havetime and room to give them my
emotional best.
I think that's a key.
And again those three questionsare really helpful.
Speaker 1 (14:15):
I'm writing those down because I think that's so.
Those three things are verypowerful.
You know, we talk a lot aboutchild-focused marriages when the
kids are little because youknow, we're taking them
everywhere, we're taking them tosports, we're play groups, all
of this.
Speaker 2 (14:31):
But there also can be too much child-focused
marriages right in the emptynest.
Oh, yeah, yeah, I mean.
What I'm finding right now isthat when I wrote the book Doing
Life With your Adult Childrenkeep your mouth shut.
Speaker 1 (14:39):
I'll talk about that.
Speaker 2 (14:40):
Excellent book.
Excellent book which prettymuch tells you what's in the
book.
But when I found out that mostof us were fretting and worrying
and in shock that our kids andfor many people their kids were
violating values, they werestraying from faith, and so that
takes on a whole new stressmode to a marriage.
And that doesn't mean that weignore our adult children, but
(15:00):
just like we're reinventing ourmarriage, we are also
reinventing our relationshipwith our kids.
And in the book Empty Nest, oneof the things I say is, when
your kids go off and have newexperiences, then you follow
their example and you have somenew experiences, have some new
experiences with your spouse.
And so you know, kathy and Iwrote down our dream list, and
our dream list wasn't just go toSicily.
We wanted to go to Sicily.
(15:21):
We could now afford Sicily,because before that we were
putting braces on people's teethand all those kinds of things.
But the point being, what isour dream list?
What do we want to make thesenext years look like?
I know that sounds sounromantic, but those were the
conversations that were reallyhelpful.
We went on a drive for aboutwell, a drive.
It was like a 10-day drive andwe went up the California coast
(15:44):
and Kathy had a yellow notebookand I had one, even though I was
driving.
I didn't write it during thattime and we just started
dreaming and you know what?
It was really cool.
We're just still doing thosedreams.
It's funny that I mentionedSicily, because that would have
been for us oh my gosh, like 12years ago, going to Sicily here
in another month, and that wasone of the things we want to do.
But what we also wanted to dois we said, you know, we have
(16:06):
neglected being in like I have asmall group.
She has a Bible study thatshe's taught for 15 years and so
that's kind of her group ofwomen.
But we neglected doing thingstogether as couples in our
church.
And so we said 12 years ago weneed to lean into that because
now we have more time to do it.
We talked about a board that Iwas on that I needed to get off
(16:27):
because it was a board that wasreally great when the kids were
younger and it was kind of apart of a thing that the kids
were being.
They could find somebody elseand guess what they did, and I
went off, and so we had allkinds of good decisions.
We had good decisions aboutworking out.
We had good decisions aboutwanting to and I'm not even a
gardener.
I couldn't tell you thedifference between an azalea and
a hibiscus.
Honestly, I'm amazed that Ieven said the word azalea,
(16:50):
because I still don't know whatit looks like.
But we got into doing some ofthat together because of having
a conversation about it and wehad a guy painting our house
yesterday and he said you guyshave the coolest garden.
And I was like, oh man, I stilldon't know what an azalea is.
Speaker 1 (17:05):
But I have a nice garden, but that felt good and
you did a dream list.
I mean, what a great thing.
It sounds easy, but once again,it's that you know, and we do
have more time.
Let's be honest, we do havemore time.
I know I have more time with myspouse now.
Speaker 2 (17:32):
And we need to communicate and to create
something like a dream list.
I love that you also talk aboutsomething called thank therapy.
Yeah, that's kind of a lifemessage for me.
I found that the Bible says ineverything you do, give thanks
for this is God's will for you.
And I had trouble with thatscripture because how can I
thank God if my mom died?
How do I thank God for one ofmy kids crashing in college?
How do I thank God for Kathyand I not having the intimacy
that we had hoped or whatever?
And then I realized it doesn'tsay for, it says in and to me,
(17:54):
thank therapy is practicingdaily thankfulness, and so I did
it this morning.
Actually, I actually put yourname on it because what I did
was I write adoration,confession, thanksgiving and
supplication.
I was a youth pastor in anotherlife and I would teach kids.
That's what you do everymorning in a short way.
And so I try to write downabout 20 reasons why I am
(18:15):
thankful Really, and you knowit's nothing fancy.
Well, I shouldn't say that,since I said I mentioned you
today.
Yeah, exactly, but you knowit's nothing fancy, but that has
really helped me.
And so, with Kathy, I remember atime where we were speaking at
a thing called Mount Hermon it'sa beautiful conference center
in Northern California and wewere driving down the coast to
(18:35):
see our daughter who was goingto college in Central California
on the coast, and I was so madat her because we'd been there,
it'd been great.
And then we went to Carmel,california, beautiful place,
wonderful food, great night,romance, you know, walking on
the beach, all that stuff.
And then Kathy says to me Jim,I think you're getting a double
chin.
And I went oh my gosh, we'vehad this great time.
(18:58):
Why is she saying that?
So I get kind of when I getfrustrated, I just get quiet,
yeah.
And then it was as if I heardGod say practice what you've
been learning, practice this,thank therapy.
So I said with gritted teeththank you God for Kathy.
She's an amazing wife and she'san amazing mother and it was so
great to be with her.
And then I said and thank youfor this and thank you for that,
thank you for this beautifulday.
(19:19):
And my circumstance hadn'tchanged, but my attitude had.
So I leaned over and gave her akiss.
I don't suggest that people dothat when you're driving on
Highway 1, on a curvy road, butI did Gave her a kiss on the
cheek and I said hey, you know,I'm really thankful for you and
she goes.
Oh, I thought you were madbecause I said you had a double
chin, I love it I said, we'lltalk about that later.
Speaker 1 (19:39):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (19:39):
But the point being, yeah, we needed to talk about
the double chin thing Of course.
Now you're looking, you can seeme, so you're kind of does he
have a double chin?
I?
Speaker 1 (19:47):
don't see one.
Speaker 2 (19:53):
But the point I'm trying to say is I find that
when I'm grateful toward my wife, practicing thank therapy
toward my wife it's funny thatwe mentioned this, because today
, you know around a kind of aspecial day.
Here I'm writing 50 reasons whyI'm thankful to Kathy.
Right now I'm at 27, because Istarted this morning and now I'm
on the podcast.
That's pretty good, amazing,yeah.
So I'm going to give her these50 things.
(20:13):
You know, I did it about 10years ago and the reason I'm
doing it again, in fact I shouldgo look in her drawer, because
it was in her drawer the lasttime I saw it.
If I have any trouble with the50, I don't think I will, but
the point being that was reallyspecial to her, and so we're
going out to dinner tonight andI'm going to hand her my little
list of 50.
That's fabulous.
(20:33):
So thoughtful.
Speaker 1 (20:36):
And yeah, I mean, those are things we just take
for granted.
We do we take for granted?
Speaker 2 (20:41):
Yeah, it's cheaper than long-stem roses.
What, yeah, it's cheaper thanlong-stem roses.
What can I say?
There you go.
But you know what it's moremeaningful it is when somebody
says I'm thankful to you for andso that's you know.
I just think that's what we doin our place and that takes
energy, it takes insight.
Especially, you can be mad 24-7, 365, because a sinner married
(21:01):
another sinner and you had sinof thelings or whatever.
But the point being, we have tobe intentional about it and I
just find I feel better when Iam aware of the reasons why I'm
thankful.
So I appreciate you asking thatquestion about thank therapy,
because that's a big deal to meit's a big yeah.
Speaker 1 (21:16):
No, I think it's very .
It's just, it's incredible.
Thank you for explaining it.
Resolving conflict comes up alot and I had a couple people
reach out.
One woman in Colorado her namewas Grace actually and she
reached out and she knew youwere going to be on the show and
she said I always feel likewhenever we're in conflict or in
an argument, one of us has towin, right, and I think a lot of
(21:39):
people will relate to that.
That's the one question.
I got several sent in to me andI thought, boy, that's a big
one, because I do think there issomething about that.
Yeah, I got to win this.
It's an argument, right, right,what would you say about?
Speaker 2 (21:50):
that.
Oh no, I would say for me.
I have to think this in my head.
This is embedded in my head nowbecause Kathy and I speak on it
and so I had to learn this andso talk about a learned trait.
But I always say do I want towin the argument or do I want to
improve the relationship so Ican, I can win an argument with
(22:15):
Kathy, kathy, kathy goes.
You know, I don't like how youcould, you're, I'm, I'm probably
a little bit more articulatethan her.
I'm a speaker, so you know Ican kind of just buzz right over
.
But if I do that, then I justlost the argument, I lost the
war.
You know I can win the argumentand that'll actually shut her
down.
So that's the question I haveto ask Do I want to do?
I want to do, I have to.
Now, what we do is we go from weall have tension in a
(22:37):
relationship, do we move todefensiveness, where we have to
say no, I'm being defensive, ordo we say we, we is a lot
tougher, we means, what's myissue in this?
What's the story behind thestory?
How can we improve thisrelationship?
And that's what I kind of callthe positive dance.
(22:59):
We go to we, when we go todefensiveness.
Oh no, no, no.
That just stops the argumentcold.
It doesn't improve it, but yetwe tend to go that way and maybe
we learn that from our parents,maybe we learn that from just
doing it all the time.
So I think again, you learnconflict resolution, getting
(23:21):
the—I mean you talk with thecounselor.
Sometimes the Bible says wherethere's no counsel, the people
fall.
In the multitude of counselors,there is safety.
Find counselors who can helpyou work through conflict.
Read a book on conflict.
There's good stuff out there onhow to do that.
Speaker 1 (23:34):
So important yeah.
Speaker 2 (23:35):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (23:37):
The last thing I want to talk about and I know it's a
big one and a lot of women talkabout this, and from a woman
perspective, a woman over 50that reach out to me, intimacy
in their relationship, sex intheir relationship, is empty
nesters.
It's challenging because womenfeel as though their bodies
change.
Well, men's have changed too,but for some reason women carry
that weight of wow, I'm just notas appealing as I used to be,
(23:59):
and so how can we?
Obviously through communicationand other things we spoke about
, but do you have any tips therefor us?
You know?
Speaker 2 (24:05):
what I agree with you .
I think women have a hardertime.
At least my experience is thatway.
I don't think it's.
You know, it's always easy formen.
You have changing libidos, youhave changing bodies.
Women are more concerned abouttheir body image than a man is
concerned about his body image.
But I think you have to figureout how to rekindle the romance
(24:26):
in your relationship and to dothat that is going to take some
energy, but I'm saying it can bedone.
You know you light the sparkagain.
So the way you light the sparkis by putting energy into a
romantic date.
By putting energy into aromantic date by literally,
(24:47):
you're probably not going tohave physical intimacy as often,
but you're going to have.
You can have better physicalintimacy.
And so this is where you haveto talk about it.
And if people got in the habitof never talking about physical
intimacy and so many people say,you know, we haven't talked
about it in 40 years, we do itbut we haven't talked about it
Well, even talking aboutphysical intimacy, especially in
the empty nest, is intimate.
Yeah, you know, intimate justmeans connecting, connecting.
(25:10):
So when you connect, connecting.
Now, what I'm saying to somepeople in the empty nest and I'm
kind of laughing about this.
I do a thing.
I'm doing it in three weeks ata place called Wind Shape and
it's finding emptiness.
Success in your marriage, it'sChick-fil-A's big deal.
And I do it twice a year and Isay schedule sex.
In the emptiness, schedule it,you got more time.
(25:32):
So if it's Wednesday, wednesday, if it's Friday, friday
schedule.
And I had a guy come up to meand he goes I'm really
frustrated with you, sayscheduling, because does that
mean I can't do it any othertime?
I go no, no, no, I'm justsaying if it's not working, then
why not?
You know, why not a time?
And I just laughed that thisguy was like very upset with me
that I was saying because I saidschedule.
(25:53):
I gave a story about a guy whoschedules sex on Wednesday with
his wife.
He, not he, they schedule sexand but you know that's not a
bad thing and a lot of marriagetherapists who deal with the
empty nest are talking about oneof the ways to rekindle that
relationship is literally juststart looking forward to it and
if it is working, great, keepdoing it.
(26:14):
But if it's not working, thenmaybe there is a schedule.
I'm not saying that.
You know if somebody has a sickor somebody has something else
going on.
So I honestly think that thatlittle secret you know to that
is great, but part of it is inthe empty nest.
We get lazy communicating andyou know, the truth is is
(26:34):
emotional intimacy precedesphysical intimacy.
So if we're not beingemotionally intimate and guys
don't get that women are betterat this, they're still not that
good at it yet, and so we haveto understand that emotional
intimacy does proceed.
And then also, I say to peopleall the time initiate.
So men, I'll say this to thewomen If you say to your spouse,
(27:00):
you know it's possible tonightwe could have a moment.
What's he going to be thinkingabout all day?
He's going to be doing that.
That's not in a woman's mind asmuch, but it is in a man's mind
.
So you know you initiate bysaying, hey, you know, that's
not, you're married, forgoodness sakes, that's not
anything bad about that.
And for a he needs to touch,touch the dishes, touch the
(27:20):
laundry, touch the you knowwhatever to help.
Because a woman's emotionalconnection is geared to a lot of
her workload and so if some ofthat gets done and gets some
help and you know, usually bothwomen and men are working,
there's all these things, butwomen take more time in the home
and all that.
So you know, for goodness sakes, don't go straight to the
(27:42):
television, turn on the TV orget to your computer, but
literally help out.
That's going to bring moreenergy into it.
People who put energy intotheir physical intimacy have
better physical intimacy.
Of course that makes sense.
Speaker 1 (27:55):
It makes sense.
It makes sense.
And so many things here, somany great takeaways, as always,
jim, you're just such a wealthof knowledge.
Where are you going to be inWisconsin?
Speaker 2 (28:04):
Rice Lake Wisconsin.
Speaker 1 (28:06):
Really Okay.
I'm a Wisconsin girl, born andraised Okay.
Speaker 2 (28:10):
So I was laughing because I'm looking at, I'm
flying in on Friday it's snowing, from Minneapolis to Rice Lake,
which is two hours, and I'm aCalifornia boy who lives at the
beach just down the street here,and I'm laughing that in this
rent-a-car.
Putting me in that car may notbe the smartest thing.
So I had to say to myself Ilove Wisconsin, it's great, and
(28:31):
I've been to Rice Lake just notthat long ago, speaking at the
same place.
But I'm kind of like hmm, Ichose Rice Lake in the middle of
February.
Speaker 1 (28:39):
In February.
Yeah, so as we leave today,I'll connect everything, all of
your books.
Your books are phenomenal.
I'm actually doing a group herein Sarasota talking about Empty
Nest, so we had our session onMonday and we talked about this
and I know they're going to belistening to this episode.
But people can find your books.
They can find.
You offer so much on Homeward.
(29:00):
Can you just walk through thatbefore we leave today?
Speaker 2 (29:03):
Yeah, no, homeward is a great organization.
We have four values strongmarriages, confident parents,
empowered kids and healthyleaders, and so all of our
content, all of our stuff is onthat.
We have two great podcasts.
One is for that, I do calledHomeward what is it called
Homeward?
With Jim Burns, and then theother one is called Embracing
your Season.
It's by an incredible womannamed Paige Klingenpiel who's a
(29:25):
therapist, and it's on parentingthe littles, empowering
teenagers, and I love that.
I love what she's doing and Ilove that Homeward is doing that
.
So a lot of new stuff comingout of Homeward.
Speaker 1 (29:37):
Yeah, I love following it.
I love following it.
I love following it.
Jim, what's one thing you wantto do in the next 10 years?
Is there something you want todo?
Speaker 2 (29:45):
Yeah Well, I love what I do.
Speaker 1 (29:48):
Yeah, you can tell.
Speaker 2 (29:49):
Sometimes people will say, oh, what I want to do is
when I grow up.
I want to do this.
I'm kind of living my dream.
Speaker 1 (29:57):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (29:59):
As a guy who's put my life into this, I love what I'm
doing.
I also you know we're talkingabout marriage.
I want Kathy and I to finishreally well, and so I want us to
have more times together, morespecial things, and so we're
trying to create more momentstogether as a couple, and I am
now called the founder ofHomeward because we have a new
(30:19):
president, so this is awesome.
I'm not having to do all theday-to-day stuff.
You get a little more time andit gives Kathy and me some more
time and I love that.
And yet by no means am Iretiring.
In fact, she would say, you'reprobably working harder, but I'm
also doing it at kind of the.
I want to write, I want tospeak.
I think there's some greatcontent still in me to get out.
Speaker 1 (30:39):
I think so too.
That's awesome.
Thanks for the time, jim.
I appreciate it.
Always Great to be with you,amy, thanks so much for
listening today.
We know how valuable your timeis and that's why we keep it
short and sweet.
Don't forget to follow us onall the socials, and you can
check out all the links andresources in the show notes.
Until next time, go forth andbe awesome.
Hey, fearless friends , it's Amy Schmidt and I am
excited to be back with today.
Our effort is faith and we aredigging into fearlessly facing
faith in our relationships.
And you know what?
Today's guest is a prettysuperhuman.
I've had him on before and wetalked about emerging adults and
relationships with adult kids.
(00:20):
Today we're going to be digginginto marriage as empty nesters.
Kids.
Today we're going to be digginginto marriage as empty nesters,
and that's a big topic becausewe all know relationships change
.
So today on the show is JimBurns.
He's the founder of Homeward.
He speaks to thousands ofpeople around the world each
year and has more than 3 millionresources in print in over 20
(00:40):
languages.
I'm so excited to welcome Jimback to the show.
So, jim, welcome to FearlesslyFacing 50 and Beyond, as we
fearlessly face our faith andrelationships.
Well, fearless friends, we'reback and, as I said in the
introduction, this is a repeatguest for me.
(01:03):
I absolutely adore this human.
I've never met him in personbut we've had a conversation.
I follow everything that hedoes and they do over at
Homeward and I just think he'samazing.
And today we're digging intokind of marriage in the empty
nest.
So, jim Burns, welcome back.
Speaker 2 (01:23):
Amy, it's so good to be with you and I'm actually a
big fan of yours and so lovebeing with you anytime.
I love it, I'm yours hereanytime.
Speaker 1 (01:31):
I love it and you know I said to Jim before we
started recording.
I said, yeah, my husband saidso, amy, who do you have on
today?
And I'm like, oh, threeinterviews.
You know we usually do three onWednesdays.
And oh, jim Burns is coming on.
What are you talking about, am?
And I'm like, oh, we're talkingabout marriage in the empty
nest.
He's like, oh man, all right,I'll make a dinner reservation
so he knows that we're going tohave some conversations, some
(01:52):
great, tangible takeaways forall of our listeners and viewers
.
So first thing is, empty nestis tough anyway.
Let's be honest, right, it'stough.
Mine are grown and flown.
I know you've lived throughthis.
There is a part of therelationship.
Now I've been married for 32years Some listeners, it'll vary
, certainly but all of a suddenyou're at this point where
(02:14):
you're kind of looking at eachother at the dinner table and
you're like, wow, you've beenlike spinning in different
orbits for so long, keeping allthese plates in the air, and now
you're together and you're like, wow, okay, who is this person?
Speaker 2 (02:26):
Yeah, no, that's exactly right, I mean, and that
was for Kathy and me too.
Here I speak on this, I writeon this, but yet when Heidi, our
youngest, went away to college,wow, we got back home and we
kind of looked at each otheracross the table and said, well,
what are we going to do withthe rest of our life?
So we hadn't prepared.
And I find, amy, that a lot ofpeople have buried things under
(02:46):
the mat about their marriage,especially because they've been
busy trying to get teenagers outof the house, get the towels
off the floor, deal with allthose other issues, and if the
people have not worked on theirmarriage prior, they seem to
have a really tough landing intothe empty nest.
If they have been working on it, it seems to be a little bit
easier.
For Kathy and I, we just simplyweren't prepared.
(03:07):
I always say that Kathy was thesun.
The girls I have all daughterswere the kind of planets
revolving around the sun.
At home I'm revolving aroundthe sun and all of a sudden she
didn't have a job, so she didn'tknow what to do, and I didn't
exactly know what to do either.
So we started experiencing theempty nest syndrome and in that
we realized that affected ourmarriage.
So we need to reboot themarriage.
(03:30):
We need to reinvent some of thedisciplines that we actually
knew better to do and thathelped us greatly.
Speaker 1 (03:36):
Yeah, I mean we do have to do better and be better
and we had that same thing andyou know, I mean you have all
this time together.
Now it's like, wow, how do youuse this time to really you know
?
And certainly, what is?
I don't know the exactstatistic, but isn't it more
than 50% of marriages?
They call it gray divorce.
Speaker 2 (03:57):
Yeah, you know that's the in this demographic.
The demographic of 50 and overis the biggest demographic of
divorce right now and we didn'tsee that literally 20 years ago.
But we are seeing that todayand I think that's because we
weren't putting energy into ourmarriage.
We were putting energy justinto the kids, being
child-focused, and that's not agood thing.
And then what happens isbecause you have all this time,
you've got to figure out justhow to do it.
(04:18):
We were with a couple thisweekend I was speaking in Sun
Valley, idaho, suffering, and wewere at their house and they're
great friends of ours, are onour board and she goes.
He's driving me crazy becausehe just follows me around and I
have things to do.
My husband is so busy this is aman of high capacity and does
great things with work but he'sjust following around.
Then he's rearranging thedishwasher when I put him in and
(04:42):
it's driving me crazy, jim.
And again, we just don't know.
We have to reinvent the way wedo marriage.
We have to reinvent the way wedeal with our kids.
We have to reinvent a lot ofstuff and we're going to be
married as empty nesters,sometimes for many of us longer
than we were with kids in thehouse.
That's what's remarkable.
Speaker 1 (05:02):
Wow, I didn't really think about that, but that is so
true.
Yeah, if you think, about it.
Speaker 2 (05:05):
The average empty nest is 48.9 years.
That's when you go into theempty nest that wasn't for Kathy
and me, but it is for a lot ofand then you start looking at it
and you go, wow, if you live tobe kind of the average age,
you're in the empty nest a longtime.
Speaker 1 (05:19):
So wow, that's really .
I didn't even think about that,I just wrote it down.
So let's walk through that.
I can relate to that.
I'm sure a lot of peoplelistening can.
You know you're kind of feelinglike he's following you around.
You kind of feel like you're,maybe, you know, getting stuff
out of the laundry and want towatch TV and he's right there
Like what can we do?
What are some tangibletakeaways?
This might be personal,actually, you know, let's just
(05:46):
talk about what are some thingswe can do.
Do we need to initiatediscussions?
Speaker 2 (05:48):
boundaries.
What is it?
Yeah, no, I think.
No, I think you have to talkabout it.
Here's what I'm hoping happens.
Here's, let's talk about theevenings these days, because it
used to be that, you know, wewere still running after kids
and doing all this.
So you know, how do we want todo some of this?
What's a great evening for you?
What are your needs?
If you're still like Kathylikes to work at night and I'm
(06:08):
pretty much just dust after atime period, and so I had to get
used to the fact that shewasn't going to come in and sit
by me and snuggle.
She was going to go in herlittle office and she teaches a
Bible study on Tuesdays, and Ithink she does it most nights.
She's's working on that stuffor she does our finances, and I
had to realize that, oh, I needto come up with some other
things to do, and that was agood thing.
(06:30):
So we actually had thatconversation and she said do you
want me just to stop what I'mdoing or redo it?
And I said you know what?
Not necessarily, but we hadsome good conversations about
that.
I find that that's the secret.
The secret is what do you need?
What do you want, what'sworking, what's not working,
what's confusing?
You know there's four questionsthat I like to ask.
(06:50):
You know what's working?
Um, in the empty nest, what'snot working in the empty nest,
uh, what's confusing and what'smissing?
And I, we've had thatconversation.
It's funny Cause I sometimes dothat at marriage conferences.
I'll say that and then I'll saywhy don't you take a?
You know, get in your ascouples and say it?
Kathy always wanders up to meand goes well, let's us do it.
(07:11):
I said well, we just did it.
You know, a month ago she goeswe need to do it again, but I
find that those are be hurtfuland so we just don't do it.
And you know, communication is alearned trait.
You know, neil Clark Warren isa founder of eHarmony and he's
(07:32):
been a marriage mentor of minefor a long, long time.
He's actually, before he wasthe eHarmony founder guy, he was
a seminary professor onmarriage and he said to me one
day I was talking about Kathyand me I said I'm like my dad
and she's like her mom, and thatwould have been World War III.
And he said well, jim,communication is a learned trait
.
Just like a mentor would say,or a coach, get it together here
(07:54):
, and so we found that we had tolearn how to re-communicate at
each phase of our marriage.
So we were communicating in acertain way when we first got
married and that was both goodand hard because we didn't know
how to do it.
Then the kids come in and nowwe're just trying to juggle and
stay awake while they're doingthe diapers and things like that
.
The next phase, then the teenagephase, is harder for a lot of
(08:15):
marriages in fact, and then whenyou get into the empty nest,
it's a whole reinvention, like Iwas saying.
But the communication style isa whole new invention too, and
what we tend to do then is wejust get set in our ways and we
get lazy and we don't, you know,lean into it.
So even those kinds ofquestions, what's missing?
You know I don't want to haveKathy tell me that I'm being a
(08:36):
louse on this or that, but if Isay that and she says, well, you
know what, what I'd like moreof, and I, you know, and I tell
people all the time look at you.
I was talking to a lady lastweekend in Sun Valley when I was
speaking, and she said myhusband is not spontaneous.
He doesn't know what I want.
He's not being romantic enough,empty nester.
And I said, well, have you toldhim what you need?
(08:57):
And she goes.
Well, no, he's supposed to knowthat I go.
Oh, we men are not that good,right, they don't know, you need
to tell him what you need.
She said well, give me anexample.
I said well, my wife, after allof these years of marriage,
we'd like to go to the moviesand I always hold her hand.
And I think that's kind of cool, holding her hand through the
movies.
I mean, anybody would thinkthat One day she goes.
You know, jim, you always holdmy hand, but I want you to put
(09:21):
my arm around her.
About 30 minutes later my armis dead.
I don't know that.
Sometimes women understand usmen having to go through that
pain.
So I take it off, I kind of goback to holding her hand and she
just takes my hand and moves itaround her shoulders and she
showed me what I needed to do.
Well, guess what, every time Igo to the movies now I've kind
of figured it out my arm isn'tdead and she's getting what she
(09:45):
wants.
But also I'm getting what Iwant because I want to please
her.
I just don't know how to do itand you know it's years ago
somebody wrote a book on.
You know, women are from Marsand men are from Venus and vice
versa.
Speaker 1 (09:54):
I can't remember it.
Speaker 2 (09:55):
Yeah, and you know, we need to have our spouses tell
us what we need.
And with Kathy, sometimes Ineed to be able to say because
she comes in the morning, I'm upreally early.
She gets up early, but not asearly as me, and she'll just
want to chit-chat and she's seenthe news already and she wants
to talk about it.
I'm already into, I'm doing mydevotions, I'm doing work mode
(10:18):
and finally I had to say one day, you know, kathy, do I need to
go?
We have an office at the house.
I don't use it very often, butdo I need to go to the office
because I really need to getthis stuff done?
And yet, at the same time, Ifeel like I'm not showing you
honor.
When you're talking aboutwhat's going on in the war or
whatever it might be, it'simportant to her, it's important
to me, it's just not importantat that moment, right?
(10:39):
So I think it goes back to thatcommunication stuff,
communication Key.
I mean what's working, what'snot working.
Speaker 1 (10:47):
What's?
Confusing and what's missingthose four questions right there
.
I mean that's what we shouldhave conversations about tonight
everybody listening, becausethose are four key things that
can really be helpful.
Speaker 2 (10:58):
I'm going to give a warning, though, amy, that there
are times when people havethose conversations and there's
a fight or two that goes on whenthey say what's missing or
people go.
I can't think of anythingthat's really working, but I
want to tell you what's missing.
Don't do that.
Speaker 1 (11:10):
Yeah, yep, you said something and I read it
somewhere.
These three things Do I likethe person I'm becoming.
Is my heart for God shrinkingor growing?
Am I giving my spouse and mychildren only my emotional
scraps?
Speaker 2 (11:27):
Yeah, that's a big one for me, all three of those.
I actually have that in myjournal.
In fact, just on the other sidehere in the podcast studio I
have those questions kind ofembedded in the journal.
But I know how I'm doing.
If I like the person I'mbecoming, if I'm too busy and I
think a lot of times, even inthe empty nest, we have all this
time now but we tend to filltime without really putting time
(11:50):
and energy into our marriage orwhatever else.
So if I like the person I'mbecoming, I'm probably doing
pretty good.
If I don't like the person I'mbecoming, I'm probably too busy.
And busy people are brokenpeople.
We always talk about busynessas a sign of success, but overly
busy families are broken.
Overly busy marriages arebroken.
In fact, john Mark Comer justsaid and I love this quote hurry
(12:12):
is violence to your soul.
Well, if that's the case,you're not going to like
yourself if you're in that place.
And then the next one for me isso key Is the work of God I'm
doing, destroying the work ofGod in me.
Speaker 1 (12:27):
And.
Speaker 2 (12:28):
I say that as a person who's in ministry, but
another way of saying it is myheart for God growing or
shrinking.
Well, you know what?
My heart for God is usuallygrowing if I'm in a better place
personally on my own, and I canthen be much better for my wife
, kathy.
Right, if my heart is shrinkingand sometimes it's because I'm
just overly busy I remember Iwent on radio years and years
(12:48):
ago and a friend of mine who wasmy accountability partner, I
said, wow, we always ask thatquestion.
I said, well, it's kind ofshrinking right now because I'm
really busy and everybodythought it was wonderful.
There was a million people aday listening to me and blah,
blah, blah.
And he said, jim, if your heartfor God is shrinking, then you
need to get off radio, you needto do whatever it takes.
It was almost like a panic forhim and instead of going, you're
(13:11):
going to work through this.
You're awesome, things are good, and I really appreciated
somebody looking me in the eyeand saying don't let your heart
shrink.
I think too many people makereally poor choices when their
heart's shrinking, and then thatlast one is probably the one I
think about the most.
Am I only giving Kathy myemotional scraps.
Why am I doing that?
I worked all weekend speakingin Sun Valley, got a trip here
(13:35):
in Wisconsin coming up thisweekend.
I'm not going to give them myemotional scraps, so why do I
come home and give Kathy myemotional scraps?
Now again, it's home, it's asanctuary.
Sometimes that happens.
But if we're doing that all thetime and then I even found that
out with my kids when they werein the home that there were
times when I would just pass, Iwould talk to them, I would try
(14:00):
to have a good conversation, butit'd be short because I need to
keep moving on.
That's not what I need to do.
I need to make sure that I havetime and room to give them my
emotional best.
I think that's a key.
And again those three questionsare really helpful.
Speaker 1 (14:15):
I'm writing those down because I think that's so.
Those three things are verypowerful.
You know, we talk a lot aboutchild-focused marriages when the
kids are little because youknow, we're taking them
everywhere, we're taking them tosports, we're play groups, all
of this.
Speaker 2 (14:31):
But there also can be too much child-focused
marriages right in the emptynest.
Oh, yeah, yeah, I mean.
What I'm finding right now isthat when I wrote the book Doing
Life With your Adult Childrenkeep your mouth shut.
Speaker 1 (14:39):
I'll talk about that.
Speaker 2 (14:40):
Excellent book.
Excellent book which prettymuch tells you what's in the
book.
But when I found out that mostof us were fretting and worrying
and in shock that our kids andfor many people their kids were
violating values, they werestraying from faith, and so that
takes on a whole new stressmode to a marriage.
And that doesn't mean that weignore our adult children, but
(15:00):
just like we're reinventing ourmarriage, we are also
reinventing our relationshipwith our kids.
And in the book Empty Nest, oneof the things I say is, when
your kids go off and have newexperiences, then you follow
their example and you have somenew experiences, have some new
experiences with your spouse.
And so you know, kathy and Iwrote down our dream list, and
our dream list wasn't just go toSicily.
We wanted to go to Sicily.
(15:21):
We could now afford Sicily,because before that we were
putting braces on people's teethand all those kinds of things.
But the point being, what isour dream list?
What do we want to make thesenext years look like?
I know that sounds sounromantic, but those were the
conversations that were reallyhelpful.
We went on a drive for aboutwell, a drive.
It was like a 10-day drive andwe went up the California coast
(15:44):
and Kathy had a yellow notebookand I had one, even though I was
driving.
I didn't write it during thattime and we just started
dreaming and you know what?
It was really cool.
We're just still doing thosedreams.
It's funny that I mentionedSicily, because that would have
been for us oh my gosh, like 12years ago, going to Sicily here
in another month, and that wasone of the things we want to do.
But what we also wanted to dois we said, you know, we have
(16:06):
neglected being in like I have asmall group.
She has a Bible study thatshe's taught for 15 years and so
that's kind of her group ofwomen.
But we neglected doing thingstogether as couples in our
church.
And so we said 12 years ago weneed to lean into that because
now we have more time to do it.
We talked about a board that Iwas on that I needed to get off
(16:27):
because it was a board that wasreally great when the kids were
younger and it was kind of apart of a thing that the kids
were being.
They could find somebody elseand guess what they did, and I
went off, and so we had allkinds of good decisions.
We had good decisions aboutworking out.
We had good decisions aboutwanting to and I'm not even a
gardener.
I couldn't tell you thedifference between an azalea and
a hibiscus.
Honestly, I'm amazed that Ieven said the word azalea,
(16:50):
because I still don't know whatit looks like.
But we got into doing some ofthat together because of having
a conversation about it and wehad a guy painting our house
yesterday and he said you guyshave the coolest garden.
And I was like, oh man, I stilldon't know what an azalea is.
Speaker 1 (17:05):
But I have a nice garden, but that felt good and
you did a dream list.
I mean, what a great thing.
It sounds easy, but once again,it's that you know, and we do
have more time.
Let's be honest, we do havemore time.
I know I have more time with myspouse now.
Speaker 2 (17:32):
And we need to communicate and to create
something like a dream list.
I love that you also talk aboutsomething called thank therapy.
Yeah, that's kind of a lifemessage for me.
I found that the Bible says ineverything you do, give thanks
for this is God's will for you.
And I had trouble with thatscripture because how can I
thank God if my mom died?
How do I thank God for one ofmy kids crashing in college?
How do I thank God for Kathyand I not having the intimacy
that we had hoped or whatever?
And then I realized it doesn'tsay for, it says in and to me,
(17:54):
thank therapy is practicingdaily thankfulness, and so I did
it this morning.
Actually, I actually put yourname on it because what I did
was I write adoration,confession, thanksgiving and
supplication.
I was a youth pastor in anotherlife and I would teach kids.
That's what you do everymorning in a short way.
And so I try to write downabout 20 reasons why I am
(18:15):
thankful Really, and you knowit's nothing fancy.
Well, I shouldn't say that,since I said I mentioned you
today.
Yeah, exactly, but you knowit's nothing fancy, but that has
really helped me.
And so, with Kathy, I remember atime where we were speaking at
a thing called Mount Hermon it'sa beautiful conference center
in Northern California and wewere driving down the coast to
(18:35):
see our daughter who was goingto college in Central California
on the coast, and I was so madat her because we'd been there,
it'd been great.
And then we went to Carmel,california, beautiful place,
wonderful food, great night,romance, you know, walking on
the beach, all that stuff.
And then Kathy says to me Jim,I think you're getting a double
chin.
And I went oh my gosh, we'vehad this great time.
(18:58):
Why is she saying that?
So I get kind of when I getfrustrated, I just get quiet,
yeah.
And then it was as if I heardGod say practice what you've
been learning, practice this,thank therapy.
So I said with gritted teeththank you God for Kathy.
She's an amazing wife and she'san amazing mother and it was so
great to be with her.
And then I said and thank youfor this and thank you for that,
thank you for this beautifulday.
(19:19):
And my circumstance hadn'tchanged, but my attitude had.
So I leaned over and gave her akiss.
I don't suggest that people dothat when you're driving on
Highway 1, on a curvy road, butI did Gave her a kiss on the
cheek and I said hey, you know,I'm really thankful for you and
she goes.
Oh, I thought you were madbecause I said you had a double
chin, I love it I said, we'lltalk about that later.
Speaker 1 (19:39):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (19:39):
But the point being, yeah, we needed to talk about
the double chin thing Of course.
Now you're looking, you can seeme, so you're kind of does he
have a double chin?
I?
Speaker 1 (19:47):
don't see one.
Speaker 2 (19:53):
But the point I'm trying to say is I find that
when I'm grateful toward my wife, practicing thank therapy
toward my wife it's funny thatwe mentioned this, because today
, you know around a kind of aspecial day.
Here I'm writing 50 reasons whyI'm thankful to Kathy.
Right now I'm at 27, because Istarted this morning and now I'm
on the podcast.
That's pretty good, amazing,yeah.
So I'm going to give her these50 things.
(20:13):
You know, I did it about 10years ago and the reason I'm
doing it again, in fact I shouldgo look in her drawer, because
it was in her drawer the lasttime I saw it.
If I have any trouble with the50, I don't think I will, but
the point being that was reallyspecial to her, and so we're
going out to dinner tonight andI'm going to hand her my little
list of 50.
That's fabulous.
(20:33):
So thoughtful.
Speaker 1 (20:36):
And yeah, I mean, those are things we just take
for granted.
We do we take for granted?
Speaker 2 (20:41):
Yeah, it's cheaper than long-stem roses.
What, yeah, it's cheaper thanlong-stem roses.
What can I say?
There you go.
But you know what it's moremeaningful it is when somebody
says I'm thankful to you for andso that's you know.
I just think that's what we doin our place and that takes
energy, it takes insight.
Especially, you can be mad 24-7, 365, because a sinner married
(21:01):
another sinner and you had sinof thelings or whatever.
But the point being, we have tobe intentional about it and I
just find I feel better when Iam aware of the reasons why I'm
thankful.
So I appreciate you asking thatquestion about thank therapy,
because that's a big deal to meit's a big yeah.
Speaker 1 (21:16):
No, I think it's very .
It's just, it's incredible.
Thank you for explaining it.
Resolving conflict comes up alot and I had a couple people
reach out.
One woman in Colorado her namewas Grace actually and she
reached out and she knew youwere going to be on the show and
she said I always feel likewhenever we're in conflict or in
an argument, one of us has towin, right, and I think a lot of
(21:39):
people will relate to that.
That's the one question.
I got several sent in to me andI thought, boy, that's a big
one, because I do think there issomething about that.
Yeah, I got to win this.
It's an argument, right, right,what would you say about?
Speaker 2 (21:50):
that.
Oh no, I would say for me.
I have to think this in my head.
This is embedded in my head nowbecause Kathy and I speak on it
and so I had to learn this andso talk about a learned trait.
But I always say do I want towin the argument or do I want to
improve the relationship so Ican, I can win an argument with
(22:15):
Kathy, kathy, kathy goes.
You know, I don't like how youcould, you're, I'm, I'm probably
a little bit more articulatethan her.
I'm a speaker, so you know Ican kind of just buzz right over
.
But if I do that, then I justlost the argument, I lost the
war.
You know I can win the argumentand that'll actually shut her
down.
So that's the question I haveto ask Do I want to do?
I want to do, I have to.
Now, what we do is we go from weall have tension in a
(22:37):
relationship, do we move todefensiveness, where we have to
say no, I'm being defensive, ordo we say we, we is a lot
tougher, we means, what's myissue in this?
What's the story behind thestory?
How can we improve thisrelationship?
And that's what I kind of callthe positive dance.
(22:59):
We go to we, when we go todefensiveness.
Oh no, no, no.
That just stops the argumentcold.
It doesn't improve it, but yetwe tend to go that way and maybe
we learn that from our parents,maybe we learn that from just
doing it all the time.
So I think again, you learnconflict resolution, getting
(23:21):
the—I mean you talk with thecounselor.
Sometimes the Bible says wherethere's no counsel, the people
fall.
In the multitude of counselors,there is safety.
Find counselors who can helpyou work through conflict.
Read a book on conflict.
There's good stuff out there onhow to do that.
Speaker 1 (23:34):
So important yeah.
Speaker 2 (23:35):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (23:37):
The last thing I want to talk about and I know it's a
big one and a lot of women talkabout this, and from a woman
perspective, a woman over 50that reach out to me, intimacy
in their relationship, sex intheir relationship, is empty
nesters.
It's challenging because womenfeel as though their bodies
change.
Well, men's have changed too,but for some reason women carry
that weight of wow, I'm just notas appealing as I used to be,
(23:59):
and so how can we?
Obviously through communicationand other things we spoke about
, but do you have any tips therefor us?
You know?
Speaker 2 (24:05):
what I agree with you .
I think women have a hardertime.
At least my experience is thatway.
I don't think it's.
You know, it's always easy formen.
You have changing libidos, youhave changing bodies.
Women are more concerned abouttheir body image than a man is
concerned about his body image.
But I think you have to figureout how to rekindle the romance
(24:26):
in your relationship and to dothat that is going to take some
energy, but I'm saying it can bedone.
You know you light the sparkagain.
So the way you light the sparkis by putting energy into a
romantic date.
By putting energy into aromantic date by literally,
(24:47):
you're probably not going tohave physical intimacy as often,
but you're going to have.
You can have better physicalintimacy.
And so this is where you haveto talk about it.
And if people got in the habitof never talking about physical
intimacy and so many people say,you know, we haven't talked
about it in 40 years, we do itbut we haven't talked about it
Well, even talking aboutphysical intimacy, especially in
the empty nest, is intimate.
Yeah, you know, intimate justmeans connecting, connecting.
(25:10):
So when you connect, connecting.
Now, what I'm saying to somepeople in the empty nest and I'm
kind of laughing about this.
I do a thing.
I'm doing it in three weeks ata place called Wind Shape and
it's finding emptiness.
Success in your marriage, it'sChick-fil-A's big deal.
And I do it twice a year and Isay schedule sex.
In the emptiness, schedule it,you got more time.
(25:32):
So if it's Wednesday, wednesday, if it's Friday, friday
schedule.
And I had a guy come up to meand he goes I'm really
frustrated with you, sayscheduling, because does that
mean I can't do it any othertime?
I go no, no, no, I'm justsaying if it's not working, then
why not?
You know, why not a time?
And I just laughed that thisguy was like very upset with me
that I was saying because I saidschedule.
(25:53):
I gave a story about a guy whoschedules sex on Wednesday with
his wife.
He, not he, they schedule sexand but you know that's not a
bad thing and a lot of marriagetherapists who deal with the
empty nest are talking about oneof the ways to rekindle that
relationship is literally juststart looking forward to it and
if it is working, great, keepdoing it.
(26:14):
But if it's not working, thenmaybe there is a schedule.
I'm not saying that.
You know if somebody has a sickor somebody has something else
going on.
So I honestly think that thatlittle secret you know to that
is great, but part of it is inthe empty nest.
We get lazy communicating andyou know, the truth is is
(26:34):
emotional intimacy precedesphysical intimacy.
So if we're not beingemotionally intimate and guys
don't get that women are betterat this, they're still not that
good at it yet, and so we haveto understand that emotional
intimacy does proceed.
And then also, I say to peopleall the time initiate.
So men, I'll say this to thewomen If you say to your spouse,
(27:00):
you know it's possible tonightwe could have a moment.
What's he going to be thinkingabout all day?
He's going to be doing that.
That's not in a woman's mind asmuch, but it is in a man's mind
.
So you know you initiate bysaying, hey, you know, that's
not, you're married, forgoodness sakes, that's not
anything bad about that.
And for a he needs to touch,touch the dishes, touch the
(27:20):
laundry, touch the you knowwhatever to help.
Because a woman's emotionalconnection is geared to a lot of
her workload and so if some ofthat gets done and gets some
help and you know, usually bothwomen and men are working,
there's all these things, butwomen take more time in the home
and all that.
So you know, for goodness sakes, don't go straight to the
(27:42):
television, turn on the TV orget to your computer, but
literally help out.
That's going to bring moreenergy into it.
People who put energy intotheir physical intimacy have
better physical intimacy.
Of course that makes sense.
Speaker 1 (27:55):
It makes sense.
It makes sense.
And so many things here, somany great takeaways, as always,
jim, you're just such a wealthof knowledge.
Where are you going to be inWisconsin?
Speaker 2 (28:04):
Rice Lake Wisconsin.
Speaker 1 (28:06):
Really Okay.
I'm a Wisconsin girl, born andraised Okay.
Speaker 2 (28:10):
So I was laughing because I'm looking at, I'm
flying in on Friday it's snowing, from Minneapolis to Rice Lake,
which is two hours, and I'm aCalifornia boy who lives at the
beach just down the street here,and I'm laughing that in this
rent-a-car.
Putting me in that car may notbe the smartest thing.
So I had to say to myself Ilove Wisconsin, it's great, and
(28:31):
I've been to Rice Lake just notthat long ago, speaking at the
same place.
But I'm kind of like hmm, Ichose Rice Lake in the middle of
February.
Speaker 1 (28:39):
In February.
Yeah, so as we leave today,I'll connect everything, all of
your books.
Your books are phenomenal.
I'm actually doing a group herein Sarasota talking about Empty
Nest, so we had our session onMonday and we talked about this
and I know they're going to belistening to this episode.
But people can find your books.
They can find.
You offer so much on Homeward.
(29:00):
Can you just walk through thatbefore we leave today?
Speaker 2 (29:03):
Yeah, no, homeward is a great organization.
We have four values strongmarriages, confident parents,
empowered kids and healthyleaders, and so all of our
content, all of our stuff is onthat.
We have two great podcasts.
One is for that, I do calledHomeward what is it called
Homeward?
With Jim Burns, and then theother one is called Embracing
your Season.
It's by an incredible womannamed Paige Klingenpiel who's a
(29:25):
therapist, and it's on parentingthe littles, empowering
teenagers, and I love that.
I love what she's doing and Ilove that Homeward is doing that
.
So a lot of new stuff comingout of Homeward.
Speaker 1 (29:37):
Yeah, I love following it.
I love following it.
I love following it.
Jim, what's one thing you wantto do in the next 10 years?
Is there something you want todo?
Speaker 2 (29:45):
Yeah Well, I love what I do.
Speaker 1 (29:48):
Yeah, you can tell.
Speaker 2 (29:49):
Sometimes people will say, oh, what I want to do is
when I grow up.
I want to do this.
I'm kind of living my dream.
Speaker 1 (29:57):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (29:59):
As a guy who's put my life into this, I love what I'm
doing.
I also you know we're talkingabout marriage.
I want Kathy and I to finishreally well, and so I want us to
have more times together, morespecial things, and so we're
trying to create more momentstogether as a couple, and I am
now called the founder ofHomeward because we have a new
(30:19):
president, so this is awesome.
I'm not having to do all theday-to-day stuff.
You get a little more time andit gives Kathy and me some more
time and I love that.
And yet by no means am Iretiring.
In fact, she would say, you'reprobably working harder, but I'm
also doing it at kind of the.
I want to write, I want tospeak.
I think there's some greatcontent still in me to get out.
Speaker 1 (30:39):
I think so too.
That's awesome.
Thanks for the time, jim.
I appreciate it.
Always Great to be with you,amy, thanks so much for
listening today.
We know how valuable your timeis and that's why we keep it
short and sweet.
Don't forget to follow us onall the socials, and you can
check out all the links andresources in the show notes.
Until next time, go forth andbe awesome.
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