And the F WORD IS: FATIGUE
Fearlessly Facing our sleep as we age. Sleep is a fundamental component of our health that dramatically impacts longevity, cognitive function and disease risk.
As the "Sleep Goddess," Dr. Matsumura brings her double-board certification and deep expertise to explain why sleep is particularly challenging for women navigating perimenopause and menopause. The hormonal roller coaster of this life stage directly impacts how melatonin functions in our brains, creating the perfect storm for sleep disturbances that many women mistakenly accept as an inevitable part of aging. She is a sought-after expert on women and sleep. She is the founder and CEO of Sleep Goddess MD offering individual consultations, public speaking, and workshops for practitioners. She also offers business consulting to improve team health and productivity for better sleep.
In this episode you will discover:
• Women who don't get enough sleep have up to 69% higher risk for cancer compared to men
• Hormonal changes during perimenopause and menopause significantly impact sleep quality through melatonin disruption
• Sleep archetypes are determined by our genetic "clock genes" - Artemis (early birds), Aphrodite (night owls), and Athena (societal norm)
• The DREAM formula addresses Daytime activities, Resting environment, Emotions, Archetype, and Medical conditions
• Nine out of ten women who are postmenopausal don't know they have sleep apnea because symptoms present differently than in men
• Going to bed and waking at consistent times trains your brain for better sleep
• Electronic devices should be turned off at least one hour before bedtime
• Commercial melatonin supplements are sold in doses millions of times higher than what our bodies naturally produce
• Quality sleep requires proper preparation - create an optimal sleep environment that's dark, cool and quiet
• Napping should complement good nighttime sleep, not compensate for poor sleep habits
Visit www.sleepgoddessmd.com to take Dr. Matsumura's quiz and discover your sleep archetype.
Ready to FEARLESSLY FACE all the F WORDS – be inspired and encouraged?
Get a copy of Amy’s Best selling book: CANNONBALL! FEARLESSLY Facing Midlife and Beyond here
Fearlessly Facing Fifty and Beyond has over 200 episodes with inspiration and stories to age fearlessly and connect confidently to others thriving at midlife and beyond.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey, fearless Friends , it's Amy Schmidt and welcome
to another episode of theFearlessly Facing 50 and Beyond
podcast.
So super excited today for ourshow.
But I wanted to start by justgiving a huge thanks to all of
you that have written reviews.
Amazing, you know, I know thattime is so valuable and so
precious and there are a millionmore than a million podcasts
(00:21):
for you out there to listen to.
So thank you for popping inthose earbuds and either taking
a walk outside or cooking dinneror sharing it with a friend and
taking time to write a review.
Remember, you can find me on allthe socials.
You can find me on theAmySchmidt on Instagram, also
Instagram Fearlessly Facing 50,the F word series.
That's a new one, so you canfollow me there or go ahead and
follow along at the websitefearlesslyfacing50.com, and 50
(00:44):
is always spelled out.
So I've got a great guest today.
You know what?
And we're going to be talkingabout the ultimate sleepover.
You know, as we fearlessly facethat F word of future, we need
our sleep and today I've got thesleep goddess with us.
Yep, exactly that's what she'sknown as, and it's Dr Andrea
Matsumura, and we're going to betalking about this dream
(01:06):
formula about how we can getbetter sleep and we know that,
especially at this phase of life, if we are either
perimenopausal or postmenopausal, sleep is so important and the
statistics around that.
Oh, we're going to dig into allof it.
So stay tuned for my episode andthe podcast Fearlessly Facing
50, with my guest, dr AndreaMatsumura.
(01:27):
Well, welcome to the show today.
You know, I said a little bitin the intro about the fact that
we are going to be having ourbest sleepover today and I got
to just start off first of allby welcoming Dr Matsumura to the
show today.
I love your last name.
I just said that, Matsumura,it's just beautiful.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
Well, thank you so much for having me today.
I'm excited to talk to youraudience about sleep and,
specifically, women and theirsleep habits.
Speaker 1 (01:59):
I mean, we're fearlessly facing our future
health right here when we'retalking about sleep and I think
I may have mentioned this in theintro, but I'm going to just
say it again, because thesestatistics are unbelievable
You're 70% more accident proneif you're not sleeping well, 69%
higher risk for cancer and areduced lifespan of 4.7 years if
(02:24):
you're not getting good sleep.
What is going on?
You know that silly statementthat says oh, I'll sleep when
I'm dead.
That's not what we should besaying.
Speaker 2 (02:33):
Yeah, there is so much data being published now
around not getting enough sleep,so that study, in particular
the one that reports up to 69%increased risk for cancer,
that's a longitudinal study.
It was a big population studydone in China of 14,000 people,
(02:57):
and specifically what'simportant is that it focused on
women.
Women were at higher risk thanmen were if they did not get
enough sleep and there was thisincreased incidence of cancer
within that population, and sothat's a really it was a
startling statistic for me toread through, and what it did
(03:21):
for me is it made me realizethat it's even more important
for me to educate people,especially women, especially
women who are in theirmenopausal phase of life, to
really harness their sleep powerand their potential, because it
lives within every singleperson.
We just stop listening to ourcues and so then we have trouble
(03:47):
sleeping.
Speaker 1 (03:49):
We stop listening to our cues.
You know, I had Dr Morgan on afew weeks ago and we talked
about heart health and she saidyou know, a woman's first heart
attack is most likely more fatalthan a man's just because of
the fact we put symptoms off forso long.
We don't listen to our bodiesand I think this is the same
type of thing around sleep.
(04:09):
You know, one thing I'd like toshare is that my mom has passed
, but she used to say and I canremember so many times all the
wonderful things she used totalk about but I always remember
my mom saying I had a terriblenight's sleep.
I do my best work at night.
I would get up.
She would write letters in themiddle of the night.
(04:30):
She was not a good sleeper.
And then I kind of think aboutit and I can remember days in
high school when I could hearher tiptoeing around, which
might even mean that I'm not agood sleeper and I don't think I
am a good sleeper.
But is there a genetic link tothis?
Speaker 2 (04:43):
I'm not a good sleeper and I don't think I am a
good sleeper, but is there agenetic link to this?
So there is a genetic link inregards to the type of circadian
rhythm that you have.
So I developed this systemwhere you can figure out what
your archetype is.
It's really just a way offiguring out what your circadian
rhythm is.
So we're all born with clockgenes that live in the
hypothalamus of the brain.
(05:04):
So we're all born with clockgenes that live in the
hypothalamus of the brain andbasically they're set for a
particular time when your bodywants to go to bed and when it
wants to wake up, and that maynot be in line with our societal
norm.
So some people are early birds,or what I call an Artemis, some
people are night owls, or whatI call an Aphrodite, and then
other people fall into societalnorm, which are my Athenas, and
(05:29):
societal norm is going to bedaround 10, waking up at around 6
, going to bed at 11, waking upat 7.
Some people are night owls andit sounds like your mom may have
been a night owl.
They want to go to bed aftermidnight.
They want to wake up at 8.
They want to go to bed atmidnight.
They want to wake up at eight.
They want to go to bed at one,wake up at nine.
Society does not do.
We don't plan for those type offolks, unless we lived in a
(05:53):
place like Spain or France,where the society wakes up later
, right.
So then what happens is youhave this person that's living
in an earlier society, and thenthey develop sleep anxiety, and
then they develop hypervigilancein their sleep, so they not
only have a delayed circadianrhythm, they in addition develop
(06:15):
insomnia because they don'twant to miss waking up.
So then they becomehypervigilant in their sleep and
they're waking up all nightlong because they don't want to
miss waking up the next day.
Speaker 1 (06:27):
Wow, that's so interesting.
Sleep anxiety We've got to diginto that more.
I think back to having my kidsbeing little and I had a husband
who traveled a lot and so Iwould say, well, I'm just going
to put them to bed later,because then they'll sleep in
more, and that always backfiredit always backfired, it always
(06:48):
backfired.
Speaker 2 (06:48):
Kids are.
Typically children are early,early to bed, early to rise.
They require a whole lot moresleep and, generally speaking,
they will wake up early,although those night owls who
are born with the later clockgenes.
They tend to follow that rhythmwhere they will say when they
(07:09):
were little that they would hideunder their covers and read
books or that they were havingtrouble going to sleep.
But most of the time kids needto wake up early and it doesn't
really matter how late you go tosleep.
Your body clock will wake youup.
So that's why people who areearly birds, you know, you tell
them hey, we have this, you know, reservation at this wonderful
(07:32):
restaurant.
But it's not until nine andthey say I'm out, I'm not going
to go.
I have to get up.
I wake up naturally at fiveo'clock in the morning and I am
going to be falling over my foodat 930.
So they just don't ever gothere.
Speaker 1 (07:51):
Yeah, very interesting.
Let's talk about this dreamformula.
I think this is amazing andyou've developed this.
I mean, this is all science.
Speaker 2 (07:54):
Oh, I see your little dog back there, yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:55):
There's my dog.
I love it.
Hey, it's real life and that'swhat's awesome.
Let's talk about this.
Can you walk me through thedream formula, because I was
reading about it?
It's incredible.
Speaker 2 (08:04):
Yeah.
So you know, it's the work thatpretty much every sleep
medicine physician does.
I just kind of developed it formy own, this method, because it
allows me to teach people howcomplex sleep really is.
We are always looking for quicksolutions, and, especially with
social media, there are allthese quick fixes online,
(08:27):
thinking that well, if I just dothis one thing, my sleep is
going to be completely fixed.
But it's more complex than that.
So DREAM is the acronym thatstands for your daytime
activities.
So what are you doing duringthe day that may be affecting
your sleep?
Then your resting environment.
Believe it or not, lots ofpeople have issues with their
(08:50):
resting environment not beingideal.
You know, it might be too loud,or they have too many lights on
, or they have a TV in theirbedroom or their phone in their
bedroom.
Then E stands for emotions weall struggle with bringing our
anxiety to bed sometimes andthen A is your archetype.
(09:12):
So what is your circadianrhythm?
And then the last one is Mstands for medical conditions,
and there's many medicalconditions that can affect one's
sleep.
There's lots of chronic issuesthat people do not realize can
affect your sleep.
One of them is becomingmenopausal, and if you have a
(09:33):
change in your hormones, thenthat can certainly affect your
sleep, because estrogen andprogesterone play a role in how
melatonin works in our brain.
Speaker 1 (09:45):
So we have melatonin in our brain right now.
Without taking melatonin, wehaven't.
Speaker 2 (09:50):
Oh, yeah, yeah.
So we naturally producemelatonin from the pineal gland
about four hours before weactually go to sleep, so it is
what we call a chronobiotic.
It is not a sleep inducer.
We, we, it is sold, you know,supplements are not regulated,
so you can pretty much sellanything I, I, I'm.
(10:12):
That's not to say thatsupplements are bad.
You just need to be cautious.
It's caveat emptor, you have toreally know what you're buying
and and so there's all of thesedoses of melatonin that are out
for sale over the counter and wereally shouldn't be taking high
doses of melatonin at bedtime.
We make it in picograms.
(10:33):
It is sold in milligrams,that's 10 to the sixth grader
power.
Speaker 1 (10:37):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (10:39):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:40):
Okay, that's a fun fact.
If I'm ever on Jeopardy, I'mgoing to pull that one out of my
back pocket.
That's fascinating.
Well, you know, and I think,when you're talking about
supplements and, and you know,you scroll through social media
and a lot of women are doingthis that are postmenopausal or
perimenopausal or whatever age,and they're looking at, you know
, a type of mushroom that makesyou sleep, or a type of sleep
(11:01):
gummy, or a type of Advil PM,and then they'll take two
because one didn't work, andthen they're groggy.
I mean, we're hearing it allthe time.
So, you know, proceed withcaution around that, for sure
what you're ordering.
But let's talk about a good.
Is there a sleep routine thatwe all should be doing as women
that are, you know, menopausal?
(11:21):
Is there something we should bedoing every night?
That would be consistent, thatwould create better sleep for us
?
Speaker 2 (11:27):
Yeah, I mean it's pretty, it's it's.
It's quite basic, but a lot ofpeople actually do not follow
this.
So the first thing is to go tobed at the same time and wake up
at the same time every day, andit sounds simple.
However, a lot of peopleactually don't do that.
(11:49):
They might stay up later on theweekends or whatever their day
off is.
They may go to bed later orstay in bed later, and our
brains really like routine.
Our brain likes to go to bed atthe same time and wake up at the
same time.
Then you want to make sure thatyour room is dark, cool and
quiet.
A lot of people haveelectronics in their bedroom.
(12:11):
I like to say we have too muchlight in our life, so we need to
actually put away electronicsan hour before bed.
You want to develop a routine.
Another analogy I provide is youknow when we're hungry, we
don't just open the refrigeratordoor and start shoveling food
in our mouth.
Right, we plan a meal.
(12:33):
We say we're going to be hungry, I'm going to prepare food, or
I'm going to go to a restaurantand it takes time to get the
food You're preparing yourselfto eat.
We have to prepare our brainsfor sleep, so we can't just go,
go, go, go, go, go go and thenplop into bed and expect our
brain to say, okay, I'm going togo to sleep.
(12:54):
You can.
If you're chronically sleepdeprived, your brain is going to
be starved for sleep.
You can.
If you're chronically sleepdeprived, your brain is going to
be starved for sleep and thenyou'll.
You may go to sleep easily, butmost of us really need a wind
down period.
The other thing is making surethat you are understanding how
your body reacts to food, toalcohol, to caffeine.
(13:15):
You should not be drinkingcaffeine at least six hours
before bed.
It actually does have alertingeffects and when people say that
, well, I can drink an entirecup of coffee and go right to
bed, that just proves to me thatyou're chronically sleep
deprived.
Speaker 1 (13:32):
Really, oh my gosh.
I'm sharing that with myhusband, who will order a double
espresso at dinner and be like,oh like, but he does fall
asleep.
But that is interesting and Ithink it's so true.
You have to put some thoughtinto it.
Now, I'm just thinking back tothe other night when I watched
the White Lotus, which I'mwatching that right now with my
husband and we watched it beforewe went to bed.
And then, of course, I'm wideawake talking about it because
(13:54):
I'm so intrigued by the show andwho did what.
And that was dumb, like Ishould have shut that down an
hour, an hour before.
Speaker 2 (14:02):
Yeah, you don't wanna read something that's extremely
entertaining or stressful,right we you know.
Right now I don't wanna watchthe news before.
Speaker 1 (14:13):
I go to bed Right, exactly, yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:16):
You know you don't wanna watch some sort of horror
flick or something that you knoweverybody's different.
Some people may say, in fact,that listening to heavy metal
music before bed relaxes them.
Great.
The point is that you want todo something that you know
relaxes your brain and providessome sort of soothing technique
(14:37):
if you will.
That then prepares you forsleep, and that's different for
everybody.
Speaker 1 (14:41):
So if you're waking up like you know going to bed,
say you're going to bed at 10and you're waking up every day
at 7, that kind of means withoutan alarm, that means you're
probably doing stuff, right,right.
Speaker 2 (14:52):
Right.
Speaker 1 (14:53):
So that's a good thing for people to you know
that are watching and listening.
If they're getting into thatrhythm of going to bed and
waking up without an alarm,right that's showing that
they're getting enough sleep.
Is that true?
Speaker 2 (15:05):
Yes, Most people.
If you go, if you give yourselfenough hours of sleep, you're
going to naturally wake uparound seven to nine hours later
.
Everybody knows what theirtheir set point is.
Some people only need seven,Some people need a little more
than eight.
You kind of know what your bodyneeds, but most of us don't
(15:28):
give ourselves enough sleep,what I call sleep opportunity.
We are burning the candle atboth ends.
We're trying to wake up earlierthan our body wants to wake up
and we're going to bed laterthan our body wants to go to bed
.
Speaker 1 (15:40):
Yep, yep Interesting.
Let's dig into two other things.
One is sleep apnea.
You know there's all sorts offunny skits now on SNL and there
was a movie I think with Ican't remember who it was, but
you know they had their sleepapnea masks and all of that Wine
country.
Yes, yes, it was.
You know, is this somethingthat is more common with
(16:02):
menopausal women?
Because I read that somewhereand I don't know if there's
science to back that up.
But is sleep apnea really athing?
Speaker 2 (16:09):
Oh yeah, sleep apnea is really a thing.
Unfortunately, it's beenconsumerized for quick fixes in
the media.
There's always, you know, thisoral appliance that's going to
work Really.
Somebody needs to be evaluatedofficially by a clinician or a
physician who understands how tointerpret a sleep study.
(16:32):
So nine out of 10 women who arepostmenopausal do not know that
they have sleep apnea becausewomen do not present the same
way as men do.
So much like everything else inmedicine, the screening tools
that we use to help determinerisk for people women don't fit
(16:54):
into those boxes, because mostof the screening tools that are
developed are developed with menin mind, so they didn't test
women.
So women don't typically haveloud snoring or have a bed
partner that says, oh my gosh,I'm hearing that person stop
breathing, or they're snoringreally loudly.
Women typically have fragmentedsleep, wake up feeling tired or
(17:19):
what we call having malaise.
They don't know why they feelbad, but they do.
They may wake up with headachesand they sometimes say things
like I don't know if I'mdepressed because I'm tired, or
I'm tired because I'm depressed,or I'm tired because I'm
(17:44):
depressed.
Oh wow, so it's way lessspecific these symptoms around
women and sleep apnea.
Why is this important Becausesleep apnea is potentially a
risk factor for heart attacksand strokes.
Speaker 1 (17:54):
I have read that.
So for women listening, shouldthey be asking their primary
care doctor to have a sleepstudy, or how would they begin
that process?
Speaker 2 (18:03):
So the first thing is figuring out what is causing
poor sleep, and so that's why Ideveloped the dream method,
because you have to unpack a lot.
It's not well.
Are you getting enough hours ofsleep?
Most people will say they'renot getting enough hours of
sleep.
Most people will say they'renot getting enough hours of
sleep.
But it's all of those pieces tofigure out.
(18:24):
Do I need to have a sleep study?
Because not everybody needs asleep study.
So you have to really again aska lot of questions.
It's all about the person'shistory.
That's where I get all of thedetails to determine whether or
not somebody really needs asleep study or not.
If you go down the path of sleepstudy, most insurance companies
(18:47):
will only allow what is calleda type 3 home sleep apnea test.
Most insurance companies do notapprove a type 1 study, which
is in the Sleep Center SleepStudy.
Why am I bringing that up?
Because there are more falsenegatives in women in home sleep
(19:07):
study testing.
So if you have a lot ofsymptoms and it sounds like you
might be at moderate to highrisk for sleep apnea and you
have a home sleep study or atype three, then that is room
for you to you know, if that iscomes back negative, there may
be room for you to actually thenmove forward with an in lab
(19:30):
sleep study.
So a lot of people will say,well, I got tested and I'm
negative, and I have seen thisover and over again, that women
have mild sleep apnea.
But it is really severe duringdream sleep, or what we call REM
sleep, and it's much moredifficult to capture on a home
study or a type three.
There's a different type ofstudy called a type two sleep
(19:52):
study.
That is more likely to capturethat data and you don't have to
sleep somewhere else.
But hardly anybody uses thosetypes of studies and so, again,
it's more complex than peoplethink.
People want to have a sleepstudy done and they kind of come
in sometimes ordering it likethey're at a fast food
(20:14):
restaurant, and so my responseto that is similar to if you
have an entry of a joint youdon't know what you need.
Do you need an x-ray?
Do you need an MRI?
Do you need a CAT scan?
We don't know what.
We have to talk to you first tofigure out what type of
(20:37):
diagnostic study you need.
It's the same thing with sleep.
It's not that a home study isgoing to be great for everyone.
We might have to look furtherand do a different type of study
so interesting.
Speaker 1 (20:52):
You know there are these TikTok crazes where you
know people are taping theirmouth at night, so they're you
know.
I mean all of these crazythings that people are doing,
but I mean that's just sointeresting around sleep apnea
and it's also something that youshouldn't put off and you
shouldn't be embarrassed about.
If you have sleep apnea andyou're apnea and you're a woman,
(21:13):
then you know take the rightcourse of action to help you so
it doesn't you know, result in astroke or heart attack.
Speaker 2 (21:22):
Right, and there are other methods to treat sleep
apnea.
Outside of continuous positiveairway pressure or CPAP, there
are oral appliances.
However, again, you want tohave that full conversation to
understand what type of sleepapnea you have, because the one
that everybody knows about issimple, obstructive sleep apnea.
(21:42):
But there are different typesof sleep apnea that people don't
really realize that are outthere, and and then you want to
figure out what is the besttreatment for you.
Right, the my one PSA today isplease don't use tape if you
think that you are helpingyourself because you're snoring,
(22:03):
because you may, in fact, becausing your body to have worse
apnea.
If you're taping your mouthbecause you're trying to prevent
snoring.
Speaker 1 (22:14):
I love that.
Thank you for sharing that,because there are, and that's
what people are going to.
They're going to social mediafor answers to these things and
you know there's no scientificresearch to back it and it's
dangerous.
I've got on with me today DrAndrea Matsumura.
You can find her I'll linkeverything in the episode notes,
but it's sleepgoddessmdcom.
There's a great quiz on therethat you can take to find out
(22:35):
your sleep archetype, which Ithink is amazing.
You can take to find out yoursleep archetype, which I think
is amazing.
You know we're digging into alot today and there's a lot of
questions, so I will have thatin the episode notes so you can
reach out to her directly,because I think sleep is so
important and you know weundervalue it, I think, way too
much, and not prioritizing it aswe should.
Let's talk about naps.
(22:56):
You know a lot of people saypower naps.
I'll take a 20-minute power napand I still sleep great.
Are naps important?
Should we be taking a nap everyday?
Speaker 2 (23:05):
So it all depends, right?
So if you're using a nap tomake up for not getting enough
sleep at night, then no, youneed to just figure out how to
give yourself more hours ofsleep.
If you want to take a quick nap, the recommendation is 20
minutes, at most 30 minutes.
That can be helpful, it can berestorative, but if, again, it's
(23:31):
if you're using it to make upfor not getting enough sleep,
then no.
So it's, it's a little bit ofboth in In those later societies
.
You know, in Spain they use napsbecause they aren't getting
enough sleep at night.
So they built this into theirculture so that they can get
(23:52):
enough hours of sleep.
So a lot of people will come tome and say well, you know, this
society takes naps.
And I'll say they're alsoeating dinner at 9 o'clock at
night.
You know, if you go and try toeat dinner at 5 or 6, they look
at you funny.
Yes, right, their society runslater, but people still get up
(24:12):
early.
So they built in this middle ofthe day rest period to make up
for not getting enough sleep atnight.
Speaker 1 (24:21):
Yeah, have we always trended this?
I mean, is this a new trendthat we're just not sleeping as
well?
I mean, in the 1960s, if welook at data, were we sleeping
more sound.
Speaker 2 (24:31):
You know, yes, so we were getting better sleep.
We were getting better sleep.
Really.
The advent of handheldelectronic devices has
fast-forwarded our inability toget enough sleep.
And when you really look at thepre-Victorian era, so when we
(24:52):
were using candles, people wentto sleep when the candles blew
out because it was dark.
People went to sleep when thecandles blew out because it was
dark.
Another example is that peoplewill tell me that they get their
best sleep when they go camping, because they're going to sleep
when the sun goes down andthey're waking up when the sun
comes up.
Speaker 1 (25:10):
That's interesting Wow.
Speaker 2 (25:13):
And it makes sense?
Yeah, because we push ourbedtimes too late is what
happens for most of us.
Speaker 1 (25:19):
Yeah, we're staying up too late.
We're trying.
Yeah, exactly.
Another question I had and thisis from somebody that actually
wrote in because I said I wasdoing something around sleep.
She asked about dreams and shesaid I get so frustrated.
She's a twin and she said I'm56 years old, I have a twin
sister and we talk every day andshe remembers every dream she
ever has had and I don'tremember any, why is?
Speaker 2 (25:42):
that.
So you know, dreaming isdifferent for everyone.
Because you don't remember yourdreams does not mean that
you're not dreaming.
We absolutely need to dream inorder to survive, because REM
sleep that's our dream state iswhen we are cleaning all the
(26:03):
waste products out of our brainfor the day.
And so a lot of people willthink that because they do not
remember their dreams, they'renot dreaming.
Well, they did do studies onrats and after about six to
eight weeks, the rats prettymuch imploded.
They'll never do these studieson humans, but that's because
that's when we are cleaning outthose waste products.
(26:25):
But we're also doing all themuscle repair, all of the repair
in the body, and if we're notgetting dream sleep, then we
will basically our immune systemshuts down, all the repair
mechanisms in the body stopworking.
It can be frustrating, sure,but I try to allay people's fear
(26:48):
and say you know you're here,talking to me today.
That tells me that you'redreaming Interesting Because
you're alive.
You're alive.
Speaker 1 (26:57):
Yeah, yeah, Doctor, walk me through when this really
happened for you, when you werelike you know what?
This is very interesting to me.
Now I think you're double boardcertified and I'm sorry I don't
have your bio right in front ofme open on my computer.
Speaker 2 (27:10):
But that's, all right .
Speaker 1 (27:12):
But when did this?
When did you become sopassionate about this?
Speaker 2 (27:16):
So I I trained as an internal medicine doc, so doctor
for adults and after about 12years of practicing and trying
to manage people's chronicmedical conditions so diabetes,
hypertension, abnormal heartrhythms, chronic muscle pain I
(27:36):
realized that at the end ofevery appointment most people
would say, oh, you know, I'm notgetting good sleep, can I get a
sleep aid?
And so for years I wastypically providing people with
a sleep aid.
That is the absolute wrongthing that we should be doing.
So you talked about White Lotus, that lorazepam no, no, no
(27:58):
lorazepam.
So I kind of had this epiphanythat sleep was the core of what
was missing.
It makes everything else harderto manage in your life, and so
then I went back to school amidlife crisis, if you will, I
don't know.
(28:18):
I was in my 40s and I went backto school to do a fellowship in
sleep medicine, and I've beenpracticing sleep medicine ever
since, and it is quite rewardingwhen I'm able to talk with
someone about the fact thatsleep is the juggernaut for
everything else to fall intoplace in their life.
It just makes things easier tomanage if you're getting quality
(28:43):
sleep.
Speaker 1 (28:44):
Yeah, oh, that makes so much sense.
Oh, I applaud you for that.
I admire you even more.
I mean, that's amazing.
I love that part of the sense.
Oh, I applaud you for that.
I admire you even more.
I mean, that's, that's amazing.
I love that part of the story.
You went back to school, youstudied this, you knew it was
important, it was on your heartand you made it happen and
you're changing lives for people.
Do you work with people allover the country if they reach
out on the website, which I'llhave you know, put in the
episode notes here?
Speaker 2 (29:05):
Yeah, so right now I I am seeing people mostly in
Oregon.
That's where I live.
I am working on getting a multi.
It's a multi-state, interstatelicense to be able to see people
in more states, but I doconsulting otherwise.
So I consult with companies ordo workshops for people.
(29:30):
I have done a workshop forother practitioners to teach
other practitioners about sleep.
So that's really.
What I'm focusing on now ispublic speaking.
Speaker 1 (29:41):
Yep, that's great, and so I'll have everything
there in the notes.
You know we touched on itbriefly.
I've got two things left to askyou before we go, because this
is just fascinating and there'ssome great takeaways for our
listeners.
Today we talked a little bitabout the importance of a
routine.
So if there's a woman todaythat's listening and has really
struggled around sleep and she'slistening and saying, yeah, I'm
(30:04):
doing that and that and thatyou know I'm doing that wrong,
what are three things she can dotonight to start working toward
better sleep?
Speaker 2 (30:12):
So the first thing is , if you're using any
electronics, make sure that youturn all electronics off an hour
before bed.
The other piece is to make surethat your sleeping environment
is optimal.
So make sure that, if it's toocold or if it's too warm, that
(30:32):
you feel comfortable.
Make sure that it's dark andmake sure that, if you like to
use an eye mask, explore whatmakes me feel comfortable, what
makes me feel cozy in my bed.
That's the second thing, andthen the third thing is take a
look at what you're doingthroughout the day.
(30:53):
Are you winding down?
Are you allowing yourself toprepare for sleep?
Do you have sleep anxiety?
That's something to thenexplore.
Maybe you didn't make theconnection and realize that
you're bringing this desire tosleep and the anxiety of not
(31:13):
getting sleep into your bed, andthen it's kind of this little
cycle that you have developedthat you didn't realize.
So, exploring what is happeningduring the day that you're
bringing into your bed that maybe affecting your sleep.
Speaker 1 (31:28):
Those are great things we can do.
Thank you, I wanted to divemore into sleep anxiety.
We'll have to get into thatnext time.
So great you know.
The last question I want to askyou is something I ask
everybody.
And if you were sitting on thecouch and you looked over and
there you were, at 30, whatadvice would you give yourself?
What advice would you give youryounger self?
Speaker 2 (31:51):
Hmm, well, uh, I would.
The advice I would give myyounger self is to uh, be more
direct, uh, and have less Fs togive to people, I mean you know,
after.
This is all about, you know,living after 50.
(32:14):
By the time I reached 50, and Ithink that's too old I just had
no more Fs left in my jar and Ibasically stopped putting up
with people's bad behavior thatsociety allows people to have,
for women especially, and it hasactually served me quite well.
Speaker 1 (32:36):
I like that.
That is a mic drop and a greatway to end this.
Thank you for that.
I applaud what you're doing somany great nuggets in there and
takeaways around sleep that areso important and you know it
needs to be a priority at thisphase of life, you know you kind
of hit it then at the end wehave got to treat ourself as a
guest of honor.
(32:56):
We've worked hard, We've earnedthis and we can't say I'm going
to sleep when I'm dead.
No, that's silly.
No, we have to have goodquality sleep every night to
enhance our health and ourlongevity and everything.
So thank you for just all yourwisdom today.
I learned so much.
I took a zillion notes, so Ireally appreciate your time.
Speaker 2 (33:14):
Thanks so much for listening today.
Speaker 1 (33:16):
We know how valuable your time is and that's why we
keep it short and sweet.
Don't forget to follow us onall the socials, and you can
check out all the links andresources in the show notes.
Until next time, go forth andbe awesome, Thank you.
Hey, fearless Friends , it's Amy Schmidt and welcome
to another episode of theFearlessly Facing 50 and Beyond
podcast.
So super excited today for ourshow.
But I wanted to start by justgiving a huge thanks to all of
you that have written reviews.
Amazing, you know, I know thattime is so valuable and so
precious and there are a millionmore than a million podcasts
(00:21):
for you out there to listen to.
So thank you for popping inthose earbuds and either taking
a walk outside or cooking dinneror sharing it with a friend and
taking time to write a review.
Remember, you can find me on allthe socials.
You can find me on theAmySchmidt on Instagram, also
Instagram Fearlessly Facing 50,the F word series.
That's a new one, so you canfollow me there or go ahead and
follow along at the websitefearlesslyfacing50.com, and 50
(00:44):
is always spelled out.
So I've got a great guest today.
You know what?
And we're going to be talkingabout the ultimate sleepover.
You know, as we fearlessly facethat F word of future, we need
our sleep and today I've got thesleep goddess with us.
Yep, exactly that's what she'sknown as, and it's Dr Andrea
Matsumura, and we're going to betalking about this dream
(01:06):
formula about how we can getbetter sleep and we know that,
especially at this phase of life, if we are either
perimenopausal or postmenopausal, sleep is so important and the
statistics around that.
Oh, we're going to dig into allof it.
So stay tuned for my episode andthe podcast Fearlessly Facing
50, with my guest, dr AndreaMatsumura.
(01:27):
Well, welcome to the show today.
You know, I said a little bitin the intro about the fact that
we are going to be having ourbest sleepover today and I got
to just start off first of allby welcoming Dr Matsumura to the
show today.
I love your last name.
I just said that, Matsumura,it's just beautiful.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
Well, thank you so much for having me today.
I'm excited to talk to youraudience about sleep and,
specifically, women and theirsleep habits.
Speaker 1 (01:59):
I mean, we're fearlessly facing our future
health right here when we'retalking about sleep and I think
I may have mentioned this in theintro, but I'm going to just
say it again, because thesestatistics are unbelievable
You're 70% more accident proneif you're not sleeping well, 69%
higher risk for cancer and areduced lifespan of 4.7 years if
(02:24):
you're not getting good sleep.
What is going on?
You know that silly statementthat says oh, I'll sleep when
I'm dead.
That's not what we should besaying.
Speaker 2 (02:33):
Yeah, there is so much data being published now
around not getting enough sleep,so that study, in particular
the one that reports up to 69%increased risk for cancer,
that's a longitudinal study.
It was a big population studydone in China of 14,000 people,
(02:57):
and specifically what'simportant is that it focused on
women.
Women were at higher risk thanmen were if they did not get
enough sleep and there was thisincreased incidence of cancer
within that population, and sothat's a really it was a
startling statistic for me toread through, and what it did
(03:21):
for me is it made me realizethat it's even more important
for me to educate people,especially women, especially
women who are in theirmenopausal phase of life, to
really harness their sleep powerand their potential, because it
lives within every singleperson.
We just stop listening to ourcues and so then we have trouble
(03:47):
sleeping.
Speaker 1 (03:49):
We stop listening to our cues.
You know, I had Dr Morgan on afew weeks ago and we talked
about heart health and she saidyou know, a woman's first heart
attack is most likely more fatalthan a man's just because of
the fact we put symptoms off forso long.
We don't listen to our bodiesand I think this is the same
type of thing around sleep.
(04:09):
You know, one thing I'd like toshare is that my mom has passed
, but she used to say and I canremember so many times all the
wonderful things she used totalk about but I always remember
my mom saying I had a terriblenight's sleep.
I do my best work at night.
I would get up.
She would write letters in themiddle of the night.
(04:30):
She was not a good sleeper.
And then I kind of think aboutit and I can remember days in
high school when I could hearher tiptoeing around, which
might even mean that I'm not agood sleeper and I don't think I
am a good sleeper.
But is there a genetic link tothis?
Speaker 2 (04:43):
I'm not a good sleeper and I don't think I am a
good sleeper, but is there agenetic link to this?
So there is a genetic link inregards to the type of circadian
rhythm that you have.
So I developed this systemwhere you can figure out what
your archetype is.
It's really just a way offiguring out what your circadian
rhythm is.
So we're all born with clockgenes that live in the
hypothalamus of the brain.
(05:04):
So we're all born with clockgenes that live in the
hypothalamus of the brain andbasically they're set for a
particular time when your bodywants to go to bed and when it
wants to wake up, and that maynot be in line with our societal
norm.
So some people are early birds,or what I call an Artemis, some
people are night owls, or whatI call an Aphrodite, and then
other people fall into societalnorm, which are my Athenas, and
(05:29):
societal norm is going to bedaround 10, waking up at around 6
, going to bed at 11, waking upat 7.
Some people are night owls andit sounds like your mom may have
been a night owl.
They want to go to bed aftermidnight.
They want to wake up at 8.
They want to go to bed atmidnight.
They want to wake up at eight.
They want to go to bed at one,wake up at nine.
Society does not do.
We don't plan for those type offolks, unless we lived in a
(05:53):
place like Spain or France,where the society wakes up later
, right.
So then what happens is youhave this person that's living
in an earlier society, and thenthey develop sleep anxiety, and
then they develop hypervigilancein their sleep, so they not
only have a delayed circadianrhythm, they in addition develop
(06:15):
insomnia because they don'twant to miss waking up.
So then they becomehypervigilant in their sleep and
they're waking up all nightlong because they don't want to
miss waking up the next day.
Speaker 1 (06:27):
Wow, that's so interesting.
Sleep anxiety We've got to diginto that more.
I think back to having my kidsbeing little and I had a husband
who traveled a lot and so Iwould say, well, I'm just going
to put them to bed later,because then they'll sleep in
more, and that always backfiredit always backfired, it always
(06:48):
backfired.
Speaker 2 (06:48):
Kids are.
Typically children are early,early to bed, early to rise.
They require a whole lot moresleep and, generally speaking,
they will wake up early,although those night owls who
are born with the later clockgenes.
They tend to follow that rhythmwhere they will say when they
(07:09):
were little that they would hideunder their covers and read
books or that they were havingtrouble going to sleep.
But most of the time kids needto wake up early and it doesn't
really matter how late you go tosleep.
Your body clock will wake youup.
So that's why people who areearly birds, you know, you tell
them hey, we have this, you know, reservation at this wonderful
(07:32):
restaurant.
But it's not until nine andthey say I'm out, I'm not going
to go.
I have to get up.
I wake up naturally at fiveo'clock in the morning and I am
going to be falling over my foodat 930.
So they just don't ever gothere.
Speaker 1 (07:51):
Yeah, very interesting.
Let's talk about this dreamformula.
I think this is amazing andyou've developed this.
I mean, this is all science.
Speaker 2 (07:54):
Oh, I see your little dog back there, yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:55):
There's my dog.
I love it.
Hey, it's real life and that'swhat's awesome.
Let's talk about this.
Can you walk me through thedream formula, because I was
reading about it?
It's incredible.
Speaker 2 (08:04):
Yeah.
So you know, it's the work thatpretty much every sleep
medicine physician does.
I just kind of developed it formy own, this method, because it
allows me to teach people howcomplex sleep really is.
We are always looking for quicksolutions, and, especially with
social media, there are allthese quick fixes online,
(08:27):
thinking that well, if I just dothis one thing, my sleep is
going to be completely fixed.
But it's more complex than that.
So DREAM is the acronym thatstands for your daytime
activities.
So what are you doing duringthe day that may be affecting
your sleep?
Then your resting environment.
Believe it or not, lots ofpeople have issues with their
(08:50):
resting environment not beingideal.
You know, it might be too loud,or they have too many lights on
, or they have a TV in theirbedroom or their phone in their
bedroom.
Then E stands for emotions weall struggle with bringing our
anxiety to bed sometimes andthen A is your archetype.
(09:12):
So what is your circadianrhythm?
And then the last one is Mstands for medical conditions,
and there's many medicalconditions that can affect one's
sleep.
There's lots of chronic issuesthat people do not realize can
affect your sleep.
One of them is becomingmenopausal, and if you have a
(09:33):
change in your hormones, thenthat can certainly affect your
sleep, because estrogen andprogesterone play a role in how
melatonin works in our brain.
Speaker 1 (09:45):
So we have melatonin in our brain right now.
Without taking melatonin, wehaven't.
Speaker 2 (09:50):
Oh, yeah, yeah.
So we naturally producemelatonin from the pineal gland
about four hours before weactually go to sleep, so it is
what we call a chronobiotic.
It is not a sleep inducer.
We, we, it is sold, you know,supplements are not regulated,
so you can pretty much sellanything I, I, I'm.
(10:12):
That's not to say thatsupplements are bad.
You just need to be cautious.
It's caveat emptor, you have toreally know what you're buying
and and so there's all of thesedoses of melatonin that are out
for sale over the counter and wereally shouldn't be taking high
doses of melatonin at bedtime.
We make it in picograms.
(10:33):
It is sold in milligrams,that's 10 to the sixth grader
power.
Speaker 1 (10:37):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (10:39):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:40):
Okay, that's a fun fact.
If I'm ever on Jeopardy, I'mgoing to pull that one out of my
back pocket.
That's fascinating.
Well, you know, and I think,when you're talking about
supplements and, and you know,you scroll through social media
and a lot of women are doingthis that are postmenopausal or
perimenopausal or whatever age,and they're looking at, you know
, a type of mushroom that makesyou sleep, or a type of sleep
(11:01):
gummy, or a type of Advil PM,and then they'll take two
because one didn't work, andthen they're groggy.
I mean, we're hearing it allthe time.
So, you know, proceed withcaution around that, for sure
what you're ordering.
But let's talk about a good.
Is there a sleep routine thatwe all should be doing as women
that are, you know, menopausal?
(11:21):
Is there something we should bedoing every night?
That would be consistent, thatwould create better sleep for us
?
Speaker 2 (11:27):
Yeah, I mean it's pretty, it's it's.
It's quite basic, but a lot ofpeople actually do not follow
this.
So the first thing is to go tobed at the same time and wake up
at the same time every day, andit sounds simple.
However, a lot of peopleactually don't do that.
(11:49):
They might stay up later on theweekends or whatever their day
off is.
They may go to bed later orstay in bed later, and our
brains really like routine.
Our brain likes to go to bed atthe same time and wake up at the
same time.
Then you want to make sure thatyour room is dark, cool and
quiet.
A lot of people haveelectronics in their bedroom.
(12:11):
I like to say we have too muchlight in our life, so we need to
actually put away electronicsan hour before bed.
You want to develop a routine.
Another analogy I provide is youknow when we're hungry, we
don't just open the refrigeratordoor and start shoveling food
in our mouth.
Right, we plan a meal.
(12:33):
We say we're going to be hungry, I'm going to prepare food, or
I'm going to go to a restaurantand it takes time to get the
food You're preparing yourselfto eat.
We have to prepare our brainsfor sleep, so we can't just go,
go, go, go, go, go go and thenplop into bed and expect our
brain to say, okay, I'm going togo to sleep.
(12:54):
You can.
If you're chronically sleepdeprived, your brain is going to
be starved for sleep.
You can.
If you're chronically sleepdeprived, your brain is going to
be starved for sleep and thenyou'll.
You may go to sleep easily, butmost of us really need a wind
down period.
The other thing is making surethat you are understanding how
your body reacts to food, toalcohol, to caffeine.
(13:15):
You should not be drinkingcaffeine at least six hours
before bed.
It actually does have alertingeffects and when people say that
, well, I can drink an entirecup of coffee and go right to
bed, that just proves to me thatyou're chronically sleep
deprived.
Speaker 1 (13:32):
Really, oh my gosh.
I'm sharing that with myhusband, who will order a double
espresso at dinner and be like,oh like, but he does fall
asleep.
But that is interesting and Ithink it's so true.
You have to put some thoughtinto it.
Now, I'm just thinking back tothe other night when I watched
the White Lotus, which I'mwatching that right now with my
husband and we watched it beforewe went to bed.
And then, of course, I'm wideawake talking about it because
(13:54):
I'm so intrigued by the show andwho did what.
And that was dumb, like Ishould have shut that down an
hour, an hour before.
Speaker 2 (14:02):
Yeah, you don't wanna read something that's extremely
entertaining or stressful,right we you know.
Right now I don't wanna watchthe news before.
Speaker 1 (14:13):
I go to bed Right, exactly, yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:16):
You know you don't wanna watch some sort of horror
flick or something that you knoweverybody's different.
Some people may say, in fact,that listening to heavy metal
music before bed relaxes them.
Great.
The point is that you want todo something that you know
relaxes your brain and providessome sort of soothing technique
(14:37):
if you will.
That then prepares you forsleep, and that's different for
everybody.
Speaker 1 (14:41):
So if you're waking up like you know going to bed,
say you're going to bed at 10and you're waking up every day
at 7, that kind of means withoutan alarm, that means you're
probably doing stuff, right,right.
Speaker 2 (14:52):
Right.
Speaker 1 (14:53):
So that's a good thing for people to you know
that are watching and listening.
If they're getting into thatrhythm of going to bed and
waking up without an alarm,right that's showing that
they're getting enough sleep.
Is that true?
Speaker 2 (15:05):
Yes, Most people.
If you go, if you give yourselfenough hours of sleep, you're
going to naturally wake uparound seven to nine hours later
.
Everybody knows what theirtheir set point is.
Some people only need seven,Some people need a little more
than eight.
You kind of know what your bodyneeds, but most of us don't
(15:28):
give ourselves enough sleep,what I call sleep opportunity.
We are burning the candle atboth ends.
We're trying to wake up earlierthan our body wants to wake up
and we're going to bed laterthan our body wants to go to bed
.
Speaker 1 (15:40):
Yep, yep Interesting.
Let's dig into two other things.
One is sleep apnea.
You know there's all sorts offunny skits now on SNL and there
was a movie I think with Ican't remember who it was, but
you know they had their sleepapnea masks and all of that Wine
country.
Yes, yes, it was.
You know, is this somethingthat is more common with
(16:02):
menopausal women?
Because I read that somewhereand I don't know if there's
science to back that up.
But is sleep apnea really athing?
Speaker 2 (16:09):
Oh yeah, sleep apnea is really a thing.
Unfortunately, it's beenconsumerized for quick fixes in
the media.
There's always, you know, thisoral appliance that's going to
work Really.
Somebody needs to be evaluatedofficially by a clinician or a
physician who understands how tointerpret a sleep study.
(16:32):
So nine out of 10 women who arepostmenopausal do not know that
they have sleep apnea becausewomen do not present the same
way as men do.
So much like everything else inmedicine, the screening tools
that we use to help determinerisk for people women don't fit
(16:54):
into those boxes, because mostof the screening tools that are
developed are developed with menin mind, so they didn't test
women.
So women don't typically haveloud snoring or have a bed
partner that says, oh my gosh,I'm hearing that person stop
breathing, or they're snoringreally loudly.
Women typically have fragmentedsleep, wake up feeling tired or
(17:19):
what we call having malaise.
They don't know why they feelbad, but they do.
They may wake up with headachesand they sometimes say things
like I don't know if I'mdepressed because I'm tired, or
I'm tired because I'm depressed,or I'm tired because I'm
(17:44):
depressed.
Oh wow, so it's way lessspecific these symptoms around
women and sleep apnea.
Why is this important Becausesleep apnea is potentially a
risk factor for heart attacksand strokes.
Speaker 1 (17:54):
I have read that.
So for women listening, shouldthey be asking their primary
care doctor to have a sleepstudy, or how would they begin
that process?
Speaker 2 (18:03):
So the first thing is figuring out what is causing
poor sleep, and so that's why Ideveloped the dream method,
because you have to unpack a lot.
It's not well.
Are you getting enough hours ofsleep?
Most people will say they'renot getting enough hours of
sleep.
Most people will say they'renot getting enough hours of
sleep.
But it's all of those pieces tofigure out.
(18:24):
Do I need to have a sleep study?
Because not everybody needs asleep study.
So you have to really again aska lot of questions.
It's all about the person'shistory.
That's where I get all of thedetails to determine whether or
not somebody really needs asleep study or not.
If you go down the path of sleepstudy, most insurance companies
(18:47):
will only allow what is calleda type 3 home sleep apnea test.
Most insurance companies do notapprove a type 1 study, which
is in the Sleep Center SleepStudy.
Why am I bringing that up?
Because there are more falsenegatives in women in home sleep
(19:07):
study testing.
So if you have a lot ofsymptoms and it sounds like you
might be at moderate to highrisk for sleep apnea and you
have a home sleep study or atype three, then that is room
for you to you know, if that iscomes back negative, there may
be room for you to actually thenmove forward with an in lab
(19:30):
sleep study.
So a lot of people will say,well, I got tested and I'm
negative, and I have seen thisover and over again, that women
have mild sleep apnea.
But it is really severe duringdream sleep, or what we call REM
sleep, and it's much moredifficult to capture on a home
study or a type three.
There's a different type ofstudy called a type two sleep
(19:52):
study.
That is more likely to capturethat data and you don't have to
sleep somewhere else.
But hardly anybody uses thosetypes of studies and so, again,
it's more complex than peoplethink.
People want to have a sleepstudy done and they kind of come
in sometimes ordering it likethey're at a fast food
(20:14):
restaurant, and so my responseto that is similar to if you
have an entry of a joint youdon't know what you need.
Do you need an x-ray?
Do you need an MRI?
Do you need a CAT scan?
We don't know what.
We have to talk to you first tofigure out what type of
(20:37):
diagnostic study you need.
It's the same thing with sleep.
It's not that a home study isgoing to be great for everyone.
We might have to look furtherand do a different type of study
so interesting.
Speaker 1 (20:52):
You know there are these TikTok crazes where you
know people are taping theirmouth at night, so they're you
know.
I mean all of these crazythings that people are doing,
but I mean that's just sointeresting around sleep apnea
and it's also something that youshouldn't put off and you
shouldn't be embarrassed about.
If you have sleep apnea andyou're apnea and you're a woman,
(21:13):
then you know take the rightcourse of action to help you so
it doesn't you know, result in astroke or heart attack.
Speaker 2 (21:22):
Right, and there are other methods to treat sleep
apnea.
Outside of continuous positiveairway pressure or CPAP, there
are oral appliances.
However, again, you want tohave that full conversation to
understand what type of sleepapnea you have, because the one
that everybody knows about issimple, obstructive sleep apnea.
(21:42):
But there are different typesof sleep apnea that people don't
really realize that are outthere, and and then you want to
figure out what is the besttreatment for you.
Right, the my one PSA today isplease don't use tape if you
think that you are helpingyourself because you're snoring,
(22:03):
because you may, in fact, becausing your body to have worse
apnea.
If you're taping your mouthbecause you're trying to prevent
snoring.
Speaker 1 (22:14):
I love that.
Thank you for sharing that,because there are, and that's
what people are going to.
They're going to social mediafor answers to these things and
you know there's no scientificresearch to back it and it's
dangerous.
I've got on with me today DrAndrea Matsumura.
You can find her I'll linkeverything in the episode notes,
but it's sleepgoddessmdcom.
There's a great quiz on therethat you can take to find out
(22:35):
your sleep archetype, which Ithink is amazing.
You can take to find out yoursleep archetype, which I think
is amazing.
You know we're digging into alot today and there's a lot of
questions, so I will have thatin the episode notes so you can
reach out to her directly,because I think sleep is so
important and you know weundervalue it, I think, way too
much, and not prioritizing it aswe should.
Let's talk about naps.
(22:56):
You know a lot of people saypower naps.
I'll take a 20-minute power napand I still sleep great.
Are naps important?
Should we be taking a nap everyday?
Speaker 2 (23:05):
So it all depends, right?
So if you're using a nap tomake up for not getting enough
sleep at night, then no, youneed to just figure out how to
give yourself more hours ofsleep.
If you want to take a quick nap, the recommendation is 20
minutes, at most 30 minutes.
That can be helpful, it can berestorative, but if, again, it's
(23:31):
if you're using it to make upfor not getting enough sleep,
then no.
So it's, it's a little bit ofboth in In those later societies
.
You know, in Spain they use napsbecause they aren't getting
enough sleep at night.
So they built this into theirculture so that they can get
(23:52):
enough hours of sleep.
So a lot of people will come tome and say well, you know, this
society takes naps.
And I'll say they're alsoeating dinner at 9 o'clock at
night.
You know, if you go and try toeat dinner at 5 or 6, they look
at you funny.
Yes, right, their society runslater, but people still get up
(24:12):
early.
So they built in this middle ofthe day rest period to make up
for not getting enough sleep atnight.
Speaker 1 (24:21):
Yeah, have we always trended this?
I mean, is this a new trendthat we're just not sleeping as
well?
I mean, in the 1960s, if welook at data, were we sleeping
more sound.
Speaker 2 (24:31):
You know, yes, so we were getting better sleep.
We were getting better sleep.
Really.
The advent of handheldelectronic devices has
fast-forwarded our inability toget enough sleep.
And when you really look at thepre-Victorian era, so when we
(24:52):
were using candles, people wentto sleep when the candles blew
out because it was dark.
People went to sleep when thecandles blew out because it was
dark.
Another example is that peoplewill tell me that they get their
best sleep when they go camping, because they're going to sleep
when the sun goes down andthey're waking up when the sun
comes up.
Speaker 1 (25:10):
That's interesting Wow.
Speaker 2 (25:13):
And it makes sense?
Yeah, because we push ourbedtimes too late is what
happens for most of us.
Speaker 1 (25:19):
Yeah, we're staying up too late.
We're trying.
Yeah, exactly.
Another question I had and thisis from somebody that actually
wrote in because I said I wasdoing something around sleep.
She asked about dreams and shesaid I get so frustrated.
She's a twin and she said I'm56 years old, I have a twin
sister and we talk every day andshe remembers every dream she
ever has had and I don'tremember any, why is?
Speaker 2 (25:42):
that.
So you know, dreaming isdifferent for everyone.
Because you don't remember yourdreams does not mean that
you're not dreaming.
We absolutely need to dream inorder to survive, because REM
sleep that's our dream state iswhen we are cleaning all the
(26:03):
waste products out of our brainfor the day.
And so a lot of people willthink that because they do not
remember their dreams, they'renot dreaming.
Well, they did do studies onrats and after about six to
eight weeks, the rats prettymuch imploded.
They'll never do these studieson humans, but that's because
that's when we are cleaning outthose waste products.
(26:25):
But we're also doing all themuscle repair, all of the repair
in the body, and if we're notgetting dream sleep, then we
will basically our immune systemshuts down, all the repair
mechanisms in the body stopworking.
It can be frustrating, sure,but I try to allay people's fear
(26:48):
and say you know you're here,talking to me today.
That tells me that you'redreaming Interesting Because
you're alive.
You're alive.
Speaker 1 (26:57):
Yeah, yeah, Doctor, walk me through when this really
happened for you, when you werelike you know what?
This is very interesting to me.
Now I think you're double boardcertified and I'm sorry I don't
have your bio right in front ofme open on my computer.
Speaker 2 (27:10):
But that's, all right .
Speaker 1 (27:12):
But when did this?
When did you become sopassionate about this?
Speaker 2 (27:16):
So I I trained as an internal medicine doc, so doctor
for adults and after about 12years of practicing and trying
to manage people's chronicmedical conditions so diabetes,
hypertension, abnormal heartrhythms, chronic muscle pain I
(27:36):
realized that at the end ofevery appointment most people
would say, oh, you know, I'm notgetting good sleep, can I get a
sleep aid?
And so for years I wastypically providing people with
a sleep aid.
That is the absolute wrongthing that we should be doing.
So you talked about White Lotus, that lorazepam no, no, no
(27:58):
lorazepam.
So I kind of had this epiphanythat sleep was the core of what
was missing.
It makes everything else harderto manage in your life, and so
then I went back to school amidlife crisis, if you will, I
don't know.
(28:18):
I was in my 40s and I went backto school to do a fellowship in
sleep medicine, and I've beenpracticing sleep medicine ever
since, and it is quite rewardingwhen I'm able to talk with
someone about the fact thatsleep is the juggernaut for
everything else to fall intoplace in their life.
It just makes things easier tomanage if you're getting quality
(28:43):
sleep.
Speaker 1 (28:44):
Yeah, oh, that makes so much sense.
Oh, I applaud you for that.
I admire you even more.
I mean, that's amazing.
I love that part of the sense.
Oh, I applaud you for that.
I admire you even more.
I mean, that's, that's amazing.
I love that part of the story.
You went back to school, youstudied this, you knew it was
important, it was on your heartand you made it happen and
you're changing lives for people.
Do you work with people allover the country if they reach
out on the website, which I'llhave you know, put in the
episode notes here?
Speaker 2 (29:05):
Yeah, so right now I I am seeing people mostly in
Oregon.
That's where I live.
I am working on getting a multi.
It's a multi-state, interstatelicense to be able to see people
in more states, but I doconsulting otherwise.
So I consult with companies ordo workshops for people.
(29:30):
I have done a workshop forother practitioners to teach
other practitioners about sleep.
So that's really.
What I'm focusing on now ispublic speaking.
Speaker 1 (29:41):
Yep, that's great, and so I'll have everything
there in the notes.
You know we touched on itbriefly.
I've got two things left to askyou before we go, because this
is just fascinating and there'ssome great takeaways for our
listeners.
Today we talked a little bitabout the importance of a
routine.
So if there's a woman todaythat's listening and has really
struggled around sleep and she'slistening and saying, yeah, I'm
(30:04):
doing that and that and thatyou know I'm doing that wrong,
what are three things she can dotonight to start working toward
better sleep?
Speaker 2 (30:12):
So the first thing is , if you're using any
electronics, make sure that youturn all electronics off an hour
before bed.
The other piece is to make surethat your sleeping environment
is optimal.
So make sure that, if it's toocold or if it's too warm, that
(30:32):
you feel comfortable.
Make sure that it's dark andmake sure that, if you like to
use an eye mask, explore whatmakes me feel comfortable, what
makes me feel cozy in my bed.
That's the second thing, andthen the third thing is take a
look at what you're doingthroughout the day.
(30:53):
Are you winding down?
Are you allowing yourself toprepare for sleep?
Do you have sleep anxiety?
That's something to thenexplore.
Maybe you didn't make theconnection and realize that
you're bringing this desire tosleep and the anxiety of not
(31:13):
getting sleep into your bed, andthen it's kind of this little
cycle that you have developedthat you didn't realize.
So, exploring what is happeningduring the day that you're
bringing into your bed that maybe affecting your sleep.
Speaker 1 (31:28):
Those are great things we can do.
Thank you, I wanted to divemore into sleep anxiety.
We'll have to get into thatnext time.
So great you know.
The last question I want to askyou is something I ask
everybody.
And if you were sitting on thecouch and you looked over and
there you were, at 30, whatadvice would you give yourself?
What advice would you give youryounger self?
Speaker 2 (31:51):
Hmm, well, uh, I would.
The advice I would give myyounger self is to uh, be more
direct, uh, and have less Fs togive to people, I mean you know,
after.
This is all about, you know,living after 50.
(32:14):
By the time I reached 50, and Ithink that's too old I just had
no more Fs left in my jar and Ibasically stopped putting up
with people's bad behavior thatsociety allows people to have,
for women especially, and it hasactually served me quite well.
Speaker 1 (32:36):
I like that.
That is a mic drop and a greatway to end this.
Thank you for that.
I applaud what you're doing somany great nuggets in there and
takeaways around sleep that areso important and you know it
needs to be a priority at thisphase of life, you know you kind
of hit it then at the end wehave got to treat ourself as a
guest of honor.
(32:56):
We've worked hard, We've earnedthis and we can't say I'm going
to sleep when I'm dead.
No, that's silly.
No, we have to have goodquality sleep every night to
enhance our health and ourlongevity and everything.
So thank you for just all yourwisdom today.
I learned so much.
I took a zillion notes, so Ireally appreciate your time.
Speaker 2 (33:14):
Thanks so much for listening today.
Speaker 1 (33:16):
We know how valuable your time is and that's why we
keep it short and sweet.
Don't forget to follow us onall the socials, and you can
check out all the links andresources in the show notes.
Until next time, go forth andbe awesome, Thank you.
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