December 9, 2024 • 24 mins
In our last episode for the year, Matt and Wade are thrilled to be joined by a familiar face and former Feed for Thought host, Ian Williams. Ian's travels to the US earlier this year brought him face-to-face with exceptional farming practices and an unforgettable salmon fishing trip guided by a former scientist. With Ian's vivid storytelling, you'll hear about the shared dedication and adaptations of farmers worldwide and chuckle at some light-hearted chatter about theories that arose along the way. Switching gears, the team also dive into the rapidly evolving world of AI and technology and Ian’s predictions on how technology will shape the future of farming.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:04):
G'day and welcome to Feed for Thought, a regular
podcast from Pioneer coveringeverything from farm systems to
crops and products and much,much more.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
Welcome back to Feed for Thought, and we're actually
back at a table that we were at12 months ago Wade, very
familiar, yeah, and we've got aguest.
He's a guest now because he wasa host in a previous time so
you can hear the voice of IanWilliams.
Welcome back, ian Hi thanksguys.
Speaker 1 (00:32):
It's actually really lovely to be together again.
We've been done talking for thelast half hour on all sorts of
stuff.
Speaker 3 (00:38):
Everything, yeah, everything you know that thing
that we were missing out of thelast half hour is and our
listeners won't have known this,but in the past, when we used
to prepare with you, ian, itused to involve a chair at the
end of the table which we'resitting at now with a flip chart
and you scribbling some noteson it, and after about 10
minutes you got a bit bored andwe just made a start.
Speaker 1 (01:02):
And usually we couldn't read what I'd written.
Speaker 3 (01:03):
That's right yeah, I don't even know if we referenced
any of the information that wason that flip chart, but hey
look, it was our attempt atpreparation.
Speaker 1 (01:11):
Yep.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
So it has been a year on since those times, and we
wanted just to see what you'vebeen up to as we led into
Christmas.
Speaker 1 (01:20):
I haven't done a lot.
Speaker 2 (01:23):
I thought you had 65 rivers.
You wanted to do a whole lot offarm work.
Speaker 1 (01:28):
Look, I have fished two of the 65 rivers.
Well done, nothing likeachieving your goals.
I have loved farming.
We've had probably the bestyear financially that we've ever
had Land prices.
Speaker 2 (01:40):
Are you saying you're putting that down to full-time
management?
Speaker 1 (01:43):
No, no, I'm putting it down to Elaine, not doing it.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
It's safe when she's not in there.
Exactly, she's not around.
Speaker 1 (01:52):
No, no, I think it's just.
It was one of those years.
It was a pretty special year.
We bought our lambs cheap.
We got really good maize yieldslast year.
Lambs were cheap and then theyjust came up over time and we
sold cattle that we bought for$800.
I think we sold it for $2,500.
I sold them for $2,500.
Speaker 3 (02:11):
So just a great year, everything aligned.
Speaker 1 (02:14):
Yeah, and I just, I mean, I love farming, I love the
physicality of it, I love, youknow, walking in a paddock and
assessing what's there andgetting the dogs to do the work,
and all that sort of stuff.
I just love it.
Speaker 3 (02:26):
I love it, and E tells us a story recently that
you weren't so passionate aboutopening up a laptop.
Speaker 1 (02:34):
I was asked to write an article for the Farm
Consultants Journal NZIPOJournal, and I hadn't opened a
laptop this was just the otherday and I hadn't opened a laptop
since I retired and I flippedit open and she said all she
heard was an audible sigh.
So no, it's been really good.
I've loved, we've loved beinggrandparents.
(02:56):
We've really enjoyed being partof our grandkids' lives.
We had a phenomenal trip to theStates, probably the trip a
lifetime so far, and I've justbeen enjoying being here.
Speaker 2 (03:08):
And you've shared with us.
We'll pick up two things out ofthat your travels, but then
this journal article that youdid eventually write or got
through, can you?
Tell us a little bit about that.
Speaker 1 (03:21):
So there were two.
Is that another?
Speaker 2 (03:22):
side.
Speaker 3 (03:24):
He probably feels like that for the podcast.
Speaker 1 (03:29):
There were two things actually that struck me.
I mean, the first one's an easyone, so I stayed with the best
man at our wedding and his wife,who were at university with us.
A guy called Rob and AmySeymour were the parents, and
their son is running their farmin Oregon.
And it just struck me this guyis an amazing farmer.
Good farmers are good.
I mean, it doesn't matter whereyou are, good farmers are good.
(03:50):
And it just blew me away when Iwalked over the farm with him,
seeing him do things like hisgrazing management, his feed
allocation, his staff managementreally just top notch, and I
just thought, wow, it's so coolto see.
It doesn't matter where you arein the world, good farmers are
amazing.
And he's only what he's.
In his early 30s He'd taken overa lot of the running of the
(04:13):
farm from mum and dad and wasjust really impressive.
So that was the first thing.
And then the second thing waswhen I was away, my friend Rob
got me fishing with anex-fishery scientist who had
become a salmon fishing guideand he took me salmon fishing
for the day.
Do you want to hear the story?
Speaker 2 (04:33):
Yeah, no, let's put a microphone in front of you.
Speaker 3 (04:36):
Matt will cut you off if he starts to tire with your
story, but so far, so good.
Speaker 1 (04:41):
It segues into the NZIP IM article.
So what was happening was that?
So we, we wrote it was twohours before low tide, because
at low tide the tide changes andthen the salmon start to run up
the river.
So we had to get the perfectspot.
So this guy had been a fisheryscientist, was now a salmon
fishing guide 83 rode me againstthe current.
I said to jack olro, he says no, no, he says this is how I stay
(05:02):
fit.
So he rowed us up the river andit was we, just in terms of the
fisheries.
He worked out a system of beingable to how he could count all
the dolphins in the Oregon andCalifornian coasts.
So really, really clever guy.
And seals, dolphins and sealswere his big thing.
So highly intelligent.
We row up the river, put theanchors down and then we just
(05:25):
start to chat, as you know, getto know each other a bit.
We talked about grandkids andfishing and then after about an
hour he obviously feltcomfortable enough with me and
he said you know, in New Zealanddo you have any of those kind
of conspiracy things?
And I said what conspiracytheories?
And he goes, yeah, and I saidto him oh, you know, I said
there's a few round, he said youknow, I said they're mostly
true and I go, strap yourself infor another four hours.
Speaker 3 (05:49):
Anchors down.
Speaker 1 (05:52):
And I thought, oh my goodness, how do I respond to
this?
Because as a scientist, I go ohsheesh.
And then I thought, no, I'venever actually had the privilege
of sitting with someone whogenuinely is intelligent,
articulate, genuinely believessome of these things.
So I said tim, so what's thetheories you know, what's the
things?
You know?
He says well, he says the earth.
Speaker 2 (06:11):
He said it is flat and at that point you're off and
racing exactly.
Speaker 1 (06:16):
I was like, oh my goodness, this is a good one to
start with.
And he asked me when I flewover.
He said he said did you see thecurvature of the earth?
You're flying at 37, 37,000feet.
And I said no, it was dark.
And he said, well, were youflying before?
He said have you ever seen thecurvature of the earth?
And I said no, and he said well, that's because it's flat.
So, anyway, and then he goes.
(06:36):
He said he made some stuffabout American politics, how Joe
Biden and Kamala Harris wereactors and they'd actually been
killed in the insurrection.
And there was a number ofothers, and the other one, of
course, was ivermectin.
And he said you know everythingfrom stage four cancer to COVID
.
He said all you need to do isgo and get a shot of ivermectin
in the bum for the vet and it'llcure it.
You'll be all right.
(06:57):
He said he's a big farmertrying to shut this stuff up,
but it and there was a number.
We could never get that as asoundbite exactly there was just
a whole whole more, a whole lotof them and it got me thinking.
I thought I wonder what.
I wonder how people who arereally articulate, highly
intelligent, can can believethis stuff when the science is
clear that it's not true, right?
(07:18):
So that was kind of liketicking on in the back of my
mind.
And then I was due to write anarticle for the consultants in
ZIPI in general and it was on.
It was in response to anarticle that James Allen, who is
Ag First in Hamilton, he haddone his Nuffield scholarship on
.
And one of the things he waslooking at was the role of AI in
(07:40):
the consulting community goingforward and we'd had this long
discussion around oh, what is itgoing to look like?
What can AI do now?
And it just struck me that thefuture is like it's expanding at
such a rapid rate in this spaceand what we have known as
(08:01):
traditional roles, liketraditional consulting roles or
traditional science roles, ortraditional professions, may not
exist in the future.
And we're not too far away.
Speaker 3 (08:13):
Yeah, and you'd almost argue, because I know the
last podcast we had with youwas a look into the future.
Speaker 1 (08:20):
I think it was something along those lines
right.
Speaker 3 (08:22):
I'm not sure that even AI at that point, this is
like what 12 months ago was partof the conversation back then.
Yet fast forward 12 months,you're saying, hey look, it's
actually playing a major rolealready.
Speaker 1 (08:36):
Yep.
Speaker 3 (08:37):
You know what's that going to look like in five
years' time?
Speaker 1 (08:40):
Yeah, look, reading James' article and then thinking
about a number of other things,it just seems to me like it's
going to be.
Basically, it's the fight fortruth, but also the fight for
people that you can trust,because the AI, you know I mean,
I've used AI in a whole lot ofdifferent one of the, for
(09:01):
example, the article.
Speaker 2 (09:03):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:04):
I said give me five reasons why farmers won't need
consultants in five years' time.
And ChatGPT banged out withinthree seconds five reasons.
And as I was reading throughthose five reasons, I was
thinking oh actually pretty good.
I actually agree with a lot ofthese yeah, these are, these are
(09:26):
, uh, these aren't too far offthe, so that's why you're side,
because I mean so.
So you know.
It basically has this abilityto be able to gather information
from all over the placeaccuracy of data or information
is going to be be reallycritical.
So so so it only can gather whatit's been given, so that you
know.
I mean, that's how AI works.
So the fight's going to be forthe data that's going to feed
(09:47):
into AI.
That's where the fight's goingto be.
Speaker 3 (09:51):
I think the other thing you know we've had this
conversation for a little whilebut you know, in my experience
to date with AI, you know Istarted out thinking about it.
You know that it was cheatingright.
So you use AI to find you ananswer or find you some
information.
That's cheating right.
But having used it for a weewhile now, you know I'm starting
(10:14):
to think, okay, well, how canit enhance the outcome?
And so, linking back to yourfertilizer recommendation, so
it's not just about sayinghere's a little bit of
information, give me afertilizer recommendation.
You could give it much moredetailed information and
theoretically lead to a muchbetter quality fertilizer
(10:34):
recommendation.
Speaker 1 (10:35):
Absolutely.
I mean, that's the beauty of it.
Speaker 2 (10:39):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:40):
And so you think, okay, so what does the future
look like in terms of what jobsare going to be around?
And in our job, you know whatsort of?
Or in your job, my job isretirement.
I don't care.
Speaker 3 (10:53):
He's loving this interview.
Speaker 1 (10:55):
But you know, you think, well, what is that going
to look like?
What skills are going to beneeded?
Speaker 3 (11:00):
Well, interestingly, you mentioned James Allen
earlier.
He actually produced a podcastthrough.
Speaker 2 (11:08):
AI.
Speaker 3 (11:09):
So Matt and I won't need to be worried about being
on the podcast in 12 months'time B.
You'll just be, you know,manufacturing something.
Speaker 1 (11:17):
But the thing of it, though, was that he had to write
the paper, so he still wrotethe paper, and then the podcast
was driven off the paper, sobase facts are critical.
Speaker 2 (11:27):
Even more so.
Speaker 1 (11:28):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (11:29):
Even more so.
Speaker 1 (11:30):
Honestly, I see three kind of key roles within this
whole space.
One is that we still need coreblue sky science being done
because we still need tounderstand the why yeah uh, now
ai is going to gather all theinformation that it's got at the
moment, so, but, but it'salways going to be need for more
(11:50):
information.
Uh, you know, so you get moreinsight or better truth, or
whatever.
The second thing is you'restill going to need people who
understand base science or basetruth principles, and so they're
going to become critical, butthey won't be as critical.
I kind of like the judges.
And then the third one isyou're just going to need people
(12:11):
who know how to use thetechnology and interpret the
result.
I call them the truth tellers,people who go well, this is what
AI said, but it's missed thispiece over here, and it's the
truth, so it's kind of thetrusted advisor.
So the role of the trustedadvisor becomes even more
critical.
Speaker 3 (12:31):
Yeah, I think your point it's an interesting one,
ian, about the.
You know, I did somethingrecently where, as I was reading
through something that it hadproduced, I recognised something
in there that I thought, oh,that's not quite right.
And then I went kind of lookinga little deeper I went no,
that's definitely not right.
But I do wonder whether in 12months or 24 months or five
(12:53):
years' time whether a lot ofthat will be gone.
Like it almost filled a gap andI didn't really care what it
was, it just sort of putsomething in there and it kind
of takes a little bit of anexpert eye to critique and find
those little things that aren'tquite right.
But I do wonder whether inanother two or three iterations
of AI we'll see less of that.
Speaker 1 (13:14):
Yep, I mean, I think, the ability.
So you've still got thatability to look at a result and
go, no, it's not right.
The concern that I've got isthat if you've got people who, I
mean this isn't their area ofexpertise Say a farmer, for
example you know they're notworried about the base science
because they've always trustedpeople that will give them the
(13:37):
information, so they're notworried about that is they've
always trusted people that willgive them the information, so
they're not worried about that.
What I've seen with somethinglike ChatGPT or the Google
equivalent or whatever the waythat they write, the way that
the machine is writing theinformation, is so convincing.
Yeah, so how does someonediscern whether what they're
getting is actually true or not?
(13:58):
And I think that's why we needpeople of integrity and we need
people that can be trustedaround us.
Who will go?
that's right, but that's not,yeah, and so it still requires
people who have a degree oftechnical knowledge, and it
still requires people who arehonest and true.
Speaker 3 (14:17):
But man it's pretty exciting, but that might be the
very, very highest priority inthe people that you have around
you as a farmer supporting yourbusiness yeah, correct.
As opposed to, maybe, atechnical specialist where you
can actually go finding thetechnical answer easy enough.
Speaker 1 (14:36):
I mean, you just need a laptop.
You might sigh when you open it, but you just need a laptop and
you just need an internetconnection, because it's there.
Speaker 2 (14:45):
And, I think, idea creation, because I think it
supports it.
But, as you've seen, wadefarmers are coming to us with
some of the stuff they've beendoing with AI, and so innovation
will still come from the humanmind, but it will just be
enhanced, I suppose, with theability to slam it all into AI
(15:06):
and then do some of that heavylifting.
Speaker 3 (15:08):
Yeah, 100%.
I think no longer, and I'veseen an example of this recently
where you'd argue a farm's gotloads of data.
We just don't have the time toactually filter through it all
and do something with it.
That's useful, Whereas nowthere's actually a mechanism
(15:28):
that you can and if you've got,like you said, Matt, a bit of an
inquisitive mind, you can askany question you like around the
data that you've got.
Speaker 1 (15:38):
I mean, if you've got your collars giving you
information, you can then say toAI hey look, I need the five
cows with the five highest cellcounts that are also doing the
highest production.
And you know, I mean whateverthing you want to do, you can
ask the machine and you canactually speak like we're
speaking now.
I don't text, I don't use myfingers to text anymore.
I just push a button and sayyou know and speak, and a text
(16:02):
is produced.
I mean it's that, it's magic,it's magic.
But you know, I mean before Iwas all fingers and thumbs
trying to do this, like ingetting sore with RSI thumbs.
Now I just go push a button.
I mean it's going to be that,it's that good.
Speaker 3 (16:16):
It's that good.
Speaker 1 (16:16):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (16:17):
It is going to be fascinating just to see how
those roles change.
And, yeah, the fact that weweren't discussing this 12
months ago and we are now iskind of a little bit not scary,
but something that we I guessall businesses need to be
putting the lens on a wee bit.
Speaker 1 (16:33):
I think there are two areas where we haven't talked
about with AI.
One is the value ofstorytellers.
Yeah, so that's what we've beendoing.
This whole idea of humaninteraction, people expressing
or having an expression of anopinion, or telling a story or
whatever.
That's never going to go away.
I can't see that as ever goingaway.
Speaker 2 (16:53):
And experience.
Yeah, so you're seeing a lot ofpeople buy football clubs and
and you were talking about thebaseball experience- yeah so
having those experiences can'tbe done through, through ai?
No, well, you could probablysomewhat.
Oh, look at me esports mate.
Speaker 1 (17:08):
Yeah, you know that's another.
I mean that that the otherthing is too, is that I the
downside of being able to open alaptop and getting all the
information that you need is theloss of human contact, and I
think that that's going to beanother critical role.
I mean, you know, we've jokedabout in the future the idea of
paid friends, people who aregoing to come onto your farm and
(17:30):
just hang out with you becauseyou're so isolated, because you
don't need people, and peoplewon't be driving up the drives.
It'll just be people who willjust come and hang out with you
and drive around in the car.
Speaker 3 (17:43):
Well, they'll have strong interrelationship kind of
skills and they'll have a bitof knowledge around the ag
sector and they'll be able tohelp distill and articulate and
interpret information that'swidely available.
Speaker 2 (18:00):
I think someone's just found something to top up
his super.
Speaker 3 (18:02):
Yeah, that's right.
It would actually suit him,given that what is?
He starts his day at about 5 to12.
Fun fact.
Speaker 2 (18:11):
He said he was just getting in the shower as I text
him, and that was about midday.
Speaker 1 (18:14):
Mind you, and that was because I was still smelly
from digging three fence postsand realigning a fence.
Speaker 2 (18:22):
So genuine red.
Yeah, there's still some manualstuff happening out there.
Speaker 1 (18:26):
I mean I just I think this last year just you know,
having time to reflect it reallyhas been one of the critical
things for me and I'm prettyexcited.
I mean I'm excited and I'mworried about what the future
holds, but I suppose it's normaland natural.
Speaker 2 (18:40):
So can you just go into that worry.
Speaker 1 (18:48):
Oh, I mean, we've already got a community that's
isolated and potentially gettingincreasingly more isolated, so
what does that mean?
How is that going to work froma social and psychological
perspective?
The second one is that and thisis something I've been worried
about for a while how do youcounteract good science?
You roll out rubbish science.
There's an actual principleinvolved with that.
So the way that you counteractgood science is you roll out
(19:11):
rubbish science and then aperson who's not into science
goes well, you're a scientist.
And you into science.
Goes well, you're a scientist.
And you're saying this.
And you're a science.
And you're a scientist andyou're saying that who do we
know who to believe or the onewe trust the most?
yeah and so, as you're, ifyou're a good person, I mean you
know, you come across as a, asa, as a, as an articulate
charismatic person, then you'llbelieve that person, whereas
(19:34):
that person in may not bespeaking the truth in their
vested interests.
So those are the sort of thingsthat I'm really concerned about,
you know the need for people ofintegrity, the need for very
good science, the need forpeople to be putting good
science into the marketplace,because that's the other thing.
You know, I'm concerned aboutthe traditional role of
scientific journals, for example.
(19:54):
Some scientific journals arestill very, very rigorous, but
others, honestly, the stuffthat's getting published, you
look at it and you think well,one year as a result, one trial
site, four reps, and it getspublished as a scientifically
significant paper.
Speaker 2 (20:12):
That's just not right it filled the book, though.
Yeah, absolutely so.
It's kind of right it filledthe book, though.
Yeah, absolutely so it's kindof.
Speaker 1 (20:18):
those are the things that I'm concerned about, but
the future man, it's exciting.
Speaker 3 (20:21):
Yeah, but were those concerns there before AI had
sort of come along and isgaining the momentum that it's
getting now?
Were they there anyway?
Or is it just the access tothat kind of poor science?
Speaker 1 (20:32):
Yes, they were, but it's so much easier now to
manipulate the data.
Yeah, like I mean, I neverforget being in an animal
production society conferencewhere these two heavyweight
scientists I mean we're talking,you know, both men at the top
of their games, shouting acrossthe room, each other fighting
each other, fighting over themethodology involved in a
(20:54):
particular experiment that got aparticular result.
That was the level of debate.
It was.
People were so passionate aboutmaking sure that we're sure
there's lots of ego and prideinvolved as well, but it was
around making sure that thisdata was accurate.
Speaker 3 (21:05):
That the result was accurate.
Speaker 1 (21:07):
I just don't see that now.
I don't see that level ofpassion and commitment.
It's interesting.
Speaker 2 (21:13):
I sat on the bus at Grasslands earlier this year
beside Derek Moat and we'rehaving this exact conversation
around the use of Slido andthese technologies that ask
questions at conferences,because there's no questions
coming from the floor at theseforums anymore, and we were both
(21:34):
in the same camp.
Is that we've lost that, thosetwo industry giants that can
actually have a good hit out androbust discussion and challenge
?
Speaker 1 (21:41):
Yeah, and it's really interesting because for me,
what it did, for me as a youngscientist, I thought, oh my
goodness, if I'm going to get upand speak at this conference, I
need to know my stuff.
I need to know my stuff, I needto know it.
It needs to be accurate and Ineed to know it because if
someone has a go, there's no wayI want to be embarrassed.
Yeah, but that's not the casenow.
I mean, people are nervousabout getting up to speak, but
(22:04):
it's kind of just that rigor andthat discipline and that desire
to produce something which istrue and accurate just needs to
be lost a bit.
Speaker 2 (22:12):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, Okay.
So that's what you fear To wrapthe pod.
Yeah, we're heading intoChristmas with some cheer.
Speaker 3 (22:22):
Don't worry.
Speaker 2 (22:23):
Are you going to write all your Christmas cards
with AI?
What's some of the big thingsthat might be applicable to you?
Speaker 1 (22:31):
I'm genuinely excited about the future.
I think that when you look atthe group of consultants coming
through and the scientistscoming through, you're getting
some very, very good people anda diverse group of people, and
not just white males, you know,I think we see it.
In fact, there's often, I think, more females involved.
We've seen more people ofcolour different races, I think
(22:53):
and so that's going to get amore diverse community, which
means that, I think, a greaterunderstanding of the truth.
Actually, I hope that AI isgoing to give us more leisure
time.
It's one of the things thatI've really enjoyed.
Speaker 3 (23:06):
It's working wonders for you, right?
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (23:10):
It's the complete absence of AI in my life that's
doing that, but I think you know, in theory, this stuff should
be able to provide us an answerquicker and it should mean that
we'll have time or energy to doother things.
So you know, I mean, the futureis pretty exciting and if we
can get more accurate real-timedata, we can make more accurate
decisions and we can producemore, or we can produce the same
(23:31):
or more with less impact.
So those are the things which Ithink is pretty exciting.
Speaker 3 (23:36):
Yeah, you can certainly like.
We see some of the challengescoming through the industry and
we often make reference to thedairy industry like as a tool to
kind of help assist with someof those challenges.
Speaker 1 (23:49):
You can see it playing a really key role,
Absolutely, and also too, as thepopulation, and and and also
too, as the population gets moreand more comfortable with it,
we'll see more and more use ofit.
Speaker 3 (24:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:01):
And therefore it's only going to get better.
One of the things about AI itdoes self-learn.
Speaker 3 (24:05):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:06):
Yeah, and it does become more accurate.
So, yeah, I'm pretty excited.
Father Christmas is great.
How can you not?
Speaker 3 (24:14):
love Christmas Time with your family.
Speaker 2 (24:18):
I don't see any Christmas trees up yet.
Speaker 1 (24:18):
Not yet no decorations?
Speaker 3 (24:19):
No, yeah, I thought you might have.
Given all the spare time, youhad probably had your Christmas
tree up by now.
Speaker 2 (24:27):
You could actually volunteer to be Father Christmas
down the mall, or something aswell.
Speaker 1 (24:30):
I've got a big enough belly, hey, mate.
Speaker 2 (24:34):
It's been fantastic having you back on the pod and
catching up after what a yearthat's just flown by and just to
see what you've been up to.
And thanks for sharing, Isuppose, this AI journey as well
that you're on, amongst manyothers out there.
So good to catch up Awesome,thank you.
Thanks, wade, for joining inand chipping and thanks, bianca,
(24:57):
for all your hard work in thebackground of the pod.
And Merry Christmas to everyone.
Have a happy new year and we'llcatch you in the new year.
G'day and welcome to Feed for Thought, a regular
podcast from Pioneer coveringeverything from farm systems to
crops and products and much,much more.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
Welcome back to Feed for Thought, and we're actually
back at a table that we were at12 months ago Wade, very
familiar, yeah, and we've got aguest.
He's a guest now because he wasa host in a previous time so
you can hear the voice of IanWilliams.
Welcome back, ian Hi thanksguys.
Speaker 1 (00:32):
It's actually really lovely to be together again.
We've been done talking for thelast half hour on all sorts of
stuff.
Speaker 3 (00:38):
Everything, yeah, everything you know that thing
that we were missing out of thelast half hour is and our
listeners won't have known this,but in the past, when we used
to prepare with you, ian, itused to involve a chair at the
end of the table which we'resitting at now with a flip chart
and you scribbling some noteson it, and after about 10
minutes you got a bit bored andwe just made a start.
Speaker 1 (01:02):
And usually we couldn't read what I'd written.
Speaker 3 (01:03):
That's right yeah, I don't even know if we referenced
any of the information that wason that flip chart, but hey
look, it was our attempt atpreparation.
Speaker 1 (01:11):
Yep.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
So it has been a year on since those times, and we
wanted just to see what you'vebeen up to as we led into
Christmas.
Speaker 1 (01:20):
I haven't done a lot.
Speaker 2 (01:23):
I thought you had 65 rivers.
You wanted to do a whole lot offarm work.
Speaker 1 (01:28):
Look, I have fished two of the 65 rivers.
Well done, nothing likeachieving your goals.
I have loved farming.
We've had probably the bestyear financially that we've ever
had Land prices.
Speaker 2 (01:40):
Are you saying you're putting that down to full-time
management?
Speaker 1 (01:43):
No, no, I'm putting it down to Elaine, not doing it.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
It's safe when she's not in there.
Exactly, she's not around.
Speaker 1 (01:52):
No, no, I think it's just.
It was one of those years.
It was a pretty special year.
We bought our lambs cheap.
We got really good maize yieldslast year.
Lambs were cheap and then theyjust came up over time and we
sold cattle that we bought for$800.
I think we sold it for $2,500.
I sold them for $2,500.
Speaker 3 (02:11):
So just a great year, everything aligned.
Speaker 1 (02:14):
Yeah, and I just, I mean, I love farming, I love the
physicality of it, I love, youknow, walking in a paddock and
assessing what's there andgetting the dogs to do the work,
and all that sort of stuff.
I just love it.
Speaker 3 (02:26):
I love it, and E tells us a story recently that
you weren't so passionate aboutopening up a laptop.
Speaker 1 (02:34):
I was asked to write an article for the Farm
Consultants Journal NZIPOJournal, and I hadn't opened a
laptop this was just the otherday and I hadn't opened a laptop
since I retired and I flippedit open and she said all she
heard was an audible sigh.
So no, it's been really good.
I've loved, we've loved beinggrandparents.
(02:56):
We've really enjoyed being partof our grandkids' lives.
We had a phenomenal trip to theStates, probably the trip a
lifetime so far, and I've justbeen enjoying being here.
Speaker 2 (03:08):
And you've shared with us.
We'll pick up two things out ofthat your travels, but then
this journal article that youdid eventually write or got
through, can you?
Tell us a little bit about that.
Speaker 1 (03:21):
So there were two.
Is that another?
Speaker 2 (03:22):
side.
Speaker 3 (03:24):
He probably feels like that for the podcast.
Speaker 1 (03:29):
There were two things actually that struck me.
I mean, the first one's an easyone, so I stayed with the best
man at our wedding and his wife,who were at university with us.
A guy called Rob and AmySeymour were the parents, and
their son is running their farmin Oregon.
And it just struck me this guyis an amazing farmer.
Good farmers are good.
I mean, it doesn't matter whereyou are, good farmers are good.
(03:50):
And it just blew me away when Iwalked over the farm with him,
seeing him do things like hisgrazing management, his feed
allocation, his staff managementreally just top notch, and I
just thought, wow, it's so coolto see.
It doesn't matter where you arein the world, good farmers are
amazing.
And he's only what he's.
In his early 30s He'd taken overa lot of the running of the
(04:13):
farm from mum and dad and wasjust really impressive.
So that was the first thing.
And then the second thing waswhen I was away, my friend Rob
got me fishing with anex-fishery scientist who had
become a salmon fishing guideand he took me salmon fishing
for the day.
Do you want to hear the story?
Speaker 2 (04:33):
Yeah, no, let's put a microphone in front of you.
Speaker 3 (04:36):
Matt will cut you off if he starts to tire with your
story, but so far, so good.
Speaker 1 (04:41):
It segues into the NZIP IM article.
So what was happening was that?
So we, we wrote it was twohours before low tide, because
at low tide the tide changes andthen the salmon start to run up
the river.
So we had to get the perfectspot.
So this guy had been a fisheryscientist, was now a salmon
fishing guide 83 rode me againstthe current.
I said to jack olro, he says no, no, he says this is how I stay
(05:02):
fit.
So he rowed us up the river andit was we, just in terms of the
fisheries.
He worked out a system of beingable to how he could count all
the dolphins in the Oregon andCalifornian coasts.
So really, really clever guy.
And seals, dolphins and sealswere his big thing.
So highly intelligent.
We row up the river, put theanchors down and then we just
(05:25):
start to chat, as you know, getto know each other a bit.
We talked about grandkids andfishing and then after about an
hour he obviously feltcomfortable enough with me and
he said you know, in New Zealanddo you have any of those kind
of conspiracy things?
And I said what conspiracytheories?
And he goes, yeah, and I saidto him oh, you know, I said
there's a few round, he said youknow, I said they're mostly
true and I go, strap yourself infor another four hours.
Speaker 3 (05:49):
Anchors down.
Speaker 1 (05:52):
And I thought, oh my goodness, how do I respond to
this?
Because as a scientist, I go ohsheesh.
And then I thought, no, I'venever actually had the privilege
of sitting with someone whogenuinely is intelligent,
articulate, genuinely believessome of these things.
So I said tim, so what's thetheories you know, what's the
things?
You know?
He says well, he says the earth.
Speaker 2 (06:11):
He said it is flat and at that point you're off and
racing exactly.
Speaker 1 (06:16):
I was like, oh my goodness, this is a good one to
start with.
And he asked me when I flewover.
He said he said did you see thecurvature of the earth?
You're flying at 37, 37,000feet.
And I said no, it was dark.
And he said, well, were youflying before?
He said have you ever seen thecurvature of the earth?
And I said no, and he said well, that's because it's flat.
So, anyway, and then he goes.
(06:36):
He said he made some stuffabout American politics, how Joe
Biden and Kamala Harris wereactors and they'd actually been
killed in the insurrection.
And there was a number ofothers, and the other one, of
course, was ivermectin.
And he said you know everythingfrom stage four cancer to COVID
.
He said all you need to do isgo and get a shot of ivermectin
in the bum for the vet and it'llcure it.
You'll be all right.
(06:57):
He said he's a big farmertrying to shut this stuff up,
but it and there was a number.
We could never get that as asoundbite exactly there was just
a whole whole more, a whole lotof them and it got me thinking.
I thought I wonder what.
I wonder how people who arereally articulate, highly
intelligent, can can believethis stuff when the science is
clear that it's not true, right?
(07:18):
So that was kind of liketicking on in the back of my
mind.
And then I was due to write anarticle for the consultants in
ZIPI in general and it was on.
It was in response to anarticle that James Allen, who is
Ag First in Hamilton, he haddone his Nuffield scholarship on
.
And one of the things he waslooking at was the role of AI in
(07:40):
the consulting community goingforward and we'd had this long
discussion around oh, what is itgoing to look like?
What can AI do now?
And it just struck me that thefuture is like it's expanding at
such a rapid rate in this spaceand what we have known as
(08:01):
traditional roles, liketraditional consulting roles or
traditional science roles, ortraditional professions, may not
exist in the future.
And we're not too far away.
Speaker 3 (08:13):
Yeah, and you'd almost argue, because I know the
last podcast we had with youwas a look into the future.
Speaker 1 (08:20):
I think it was something along those lines
right.
Speaker 3 (08:22):
I'm not sure that even AI at that point, this is
like what 12 months ago was partof the conversation back then.
Yet fast forward 12 months,you're saying, hey look, it's
actually playing a major rolealready.
Speaker 1 (08:36):
Yep.
Speaker 3 (08:37):
You know what's that going to look like in five
years' time?
Speaker 1 (08:40):
Yeah, look, reading James' article and then thinking
about a number of other things,it just seems to me like it's
going to be.
Basically, it's the fight fortruth, but also the fight for
people that you can trust,because the AI, you know I mean,
I've used AI in a whole lot ofdifferent one of the, for
(09:01):
example, the article.
Speaker 2 (09:03):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:04):
I said give me five reasons why farmers won't need
consultants in five years' time.
And ChatGPT banged out withinthree seconds five reasons.
And as I was reading throughthose five reasons, I was
thinking oh actually pretty good.
I actually agree with a lot ofthese yeah, these are, these are
(09:26):
, uh, these aren't too far offthe, so that's why you're side,
because I mean so.
So you know.
It basically has this abilityto be able to gather information
from all over the placeaccuracy of data or information
is going to be be reallycritical.
So so so it only can gather whatit's been given, so that you
know.
I mean, that's how AI works.
So the fight's going to be forthe data that's going to feed
(09:47):
into AI.
That's where the fight's goingto be.
Speaker 3 (09:51):
I think the other thing you know we've had this
conversation for a little whilebut you know, in my experience
to date with AI, you know Istarted out thinking about it.
You know that it was cheatingright.
So you use AI to find you ananswer or find you some
information.
That's cheating right.
But having used it for a weewhile now, you know I'm starting
(10:14):
to think, okay, well, how canit enhance the outcome?
And so, linking back to yourfertilizer recommendation, so
it's not just about sayinghere's a little bit of
information, give me afertilizer recommendation.
You could give it much moredetailed information and
theoretically lead to a muchbetter quality fertilizer
(10:34):
recommendation.
Speaker 1 (10:35):
Absolutely.
I mean, that's the beauty of it.
Speaker 2 (10:39):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:40):
And so you think, okay, so what does the future
look like in terms of what jobsare going to be around?
And in our job, you know whatsort of?
Or in your job, my job isretirement.
I don't care.
Speaker 3 (10:53):
He's loving this interview.
Speaker 1 (10:55):
But you know, you think, well, what is that going
to look like?
What skills are going to beneeded?
Speaker 3 (11:00):
Well, interestingly, you mentioned James Allen
earlier.
He actually produced a podcastthrough.
Speaker 2 (11:08):
AI.
Speaker 3 (11:09):
So Matt and I won't need to be worried about being
on the podcast in 12 months'time B.
You'll just be, you know,manufacturing something.
Speaker 1 (11:17):
But the thing of it, though, was that he had to write
the paper, so he still wrotethe paper, and then the podcast
was driven off the paper, sobase facts are critical.
Speaker 2 (11:27):
Even more so.
Speaker 1 (11:28):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (11:29):
Even more so.
Speaker 1 (11:30):
Honestly, I see three kind of key roles within this
whole space.
One is that we still need coreblue sky science being done
because we still need tounderstand the why yeah uh, now
ai is going to gather all theinformation that it's got at the
moment, so, but, but it'salways going to be need for more
(11:50):
information.
Uh, you know, so you get moreinsight or better truth, or
whatever.
The second thing is you'restill going to need people who
understand base science or basetruth principles, and so they're
going to become critical, butthey won't be as critical.
I kind of like the judges.
And then the third one isyou're just going to need people
(12:11):
who know how to use thetechnology and interpret the
result.
I call them the truth tellers,people who go well, this is what
AI said, but it's missed thispiece over here, and it's the
truth, so it's kind of thetrusted advisor.
So the role of the trustedadvisor becomes even more
critical.
Speaker 3 (12:31):
Yeah, I think your point it's an interesting one,
ian, about the.
You know, I did somethingrecently where, as I was reading
through something that it hadproduced, I recognised something
in there that I thought, oh,that's not quite right.
And then I went kind of lookinga little deeper I went no,
that's definitely not right.
But I do wonder whether in 12months or 24 months or five
(12:53):
years' time whether a lot ofthat will be gone.
Like it almost filled a gap andI didn't really care what it
was, it just sort of putsomething in there and it kind
of takes a little bit of anexpert eye to critique and find
those little things that aren'tquite right.
But I do wonder whether inanother two or three iterations
of AI we'll see less of that.
Speaker 1 (13:14):
Yep, I mean, I think, the ability.
So you've still got thatability to look at a result and
go, no, it's not right.
The concern that I've got isthat if you've got people who, I
mean this isn't their area ofexpertise Say a farmer, for
example you know they're notworried about the base science
because they've always trustedpeople that will give them the
(13:37):
information, so they're notworried about that is they've
always trusted people that willgive them the information, so
they're not worried about that.
What I've seen with somethinglike ChatGPT or the Google
equivalent or whatever the waythat they write, the way that
the machine is writing theinformation, is so convincing.
Yeah, so how does someonediscern whether what they're
getting is actually true or not?
(13:58):
And I think that's why we needpeople of integrity and we need
people that can be trustedaround us.
Who will go?
that's right, but that's not,yeah, and so it still requires
people who have a degree oftechnical knowledge, and it
still requires people who arehonest and true.
Speaker 3 (14:17):
But man it's pretty exciting, but that might be the
very, very highest priority inthe people that you have around
you as a farmer supporting yourbusiness yeah, correct.
As opposed to, maybe, atechnical specialist where you
can actually go finding thetechnical answer easy enough.
Speaker 1 (14:36):
I mean, you just need a laptop.
You might sigh when you open it, but you just need a laptop and
you just need an internetconnection, because it's there.
Speaker 2 (14:45):
And, I think, idea creation, because I think it
supports it.
But, as you've seen, wadefarmers are coming to us with
some of the stuff they've beendoing with AI, and so innovation
will still come from the humanmind, but it will just be
enhanced, I suppose, with theability to slam it all into AI
(15:06):
and then do some of that heavylifting.
Speaker 3 (15:08):
Yeah, 100%.
I think no longer, and I'veseen an example of this recently
where you'd argue a farm's gotloads of data.
We just don't have the time toactually filter through it all
and do something with it.
That's useful, Whereas nowthere's actually a mechanism
(15:28):
that you can and if you've got,like you said, Matt, a bit of an
inquisitive mind, you can askany question you like around the
data that you've got.
Speaker 1 (15:38):
I mean, if you've got your collars giving you
information, you can then say toAI hey look, I need the five
cows with the five highest cellcounts that are also doing the
highest production.
And you know, I mean whateverthing you want to do, you can
ask the machine and you canactually speak like we're
speaking now.
I don't text, I don't use myfingers to text anymore.
I just push a button and sayyou know and speak, and a text
(16:02):
is produced.
I mean it's that, it's magic,it's magic.
But you know, I mean before Iwas all fingers and thumbs
trying to do this, like ingetting sore with RSI thumbs.
Now I just go push a button.
I mean it's going to be that,it's that good.
Speaker 3 (16:16):
It's that good.
Speaker 1 (16:16):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (16:17):
It is going to be fascinating just to see how
those roles change.
And, yeah, the fact that weweren't discussing this 12
months ago and we are now iskind of a little bit not scary,
but something that we I guessall businesses need to be
putting the lens on a wee bit.
Speaker 1 (16:33):
I think there are two areas where we haven't talked
about with AI.
One is the value ofstorytellers.
Yeah, so that's what we've beendoing.
This whole idea of humaninteraction, people expressing
or having an expression of anopinion, or telling a story or
whatever.
That's never going to go away.
I can't see that as ever goingaway.
Speaker 2 (16:53):
And experience.
Yeah, so you're seeing a lot ofpeople buy football clubs and
and you were talking about thebaseball experience- yeah so
having those experiences can'tbe done through, through ai?
No, well, you could probablysomewhat.
Oh, look at me esports mate.
Speaker 1 (17:08):
Yeah, you know that's another.
I mean that that the otherthing is too, is that I the
downside of being able to open alaptop and getting all the
information that you need is theloss of human contact, and I
think that that's going to beanother critical role.
I mean, you know, we've jokedabout in the future the idea of
paid friends, people who aregoing to come onto your farm and
(17:30):
just hang out with you becauseyou're so isolated, because you
don't need people, and peoplewon't be driving up the drives.
It'll just be people who willjust come and hang out with you
and drive around in the car.
Speaker 3 (17:43):
Well, they'll have strong interrelationship kind of
skills and they'll have a bitof knowledge around the ag
sector and they'll be able tohelp distill and articulate and
interpret information that'swidely available.
Speaker 2 (18:00):
I think someone's just found something to top up
his super.
Speaker 3 (18:02):
Yeah, that's right.
It would actually suit him,given that what is?
He starts his day at about 5 to12.
Fun fact.
Speaker 2 (18:11):
He said he was just getting in the shower as I text
him, and that was about midday.
Speaker 1 (18:14):
Mind you, and that was because I was still smelly
from digging three fence postsand realigning a fence.
Speaker 2 (18:22):
So genuine red.
Yeah, there's still some manualstuff happening out there.
Speaker 1 (18:26):
I mean I just I think this last year just you know,
having time to reflect it reallyhas been one of the critical
things for me and I'm prettyexcited.
I mean I'm excited and I'mworried about what the future
holds, but I suppose it's normaland natural.
Speaker 2 (18:40):
So can you just go into that worry.
Speaker 1 (18:48):
Oh, I mean, we've already got a community that's
isolated and potentially gettingincreasingly more isolated, so
what does that mean?
How is that going to work froma social and psychological
perspective?
The second one is that and thisis something I've been worried
about for a while how do youcounteract good science?
You roll out rubbish science.
There's an actual principleinvolved with that.
So the way that you counteractgood science is you roll out
(19:11):
rubbish science and then aperson who's not into science
goes well, you're a scientist.
And you into science.
Goes well, you're a scientist.
And you're saying this.
And you're a science.
And you're a scientist andyou're saying that who do we
know who to believe or the onewe trust the most?
yeah and so, as you're, ifyou're a good person, I mean you
know, you come across as a, asa, as a, as an articulate
charismatic person, then you'llbelieve that person, whereas
(19:34):
that person in may not bespeaking the truth in their
vested interests.
So those are the sort of thingsthat I'm really concerned about,
you know the need for people ofintegrity, the need for very
good science, the need forpeople to be putting good
science into the marketplace,because that's the other thing.
You know, I'm concerned aboutthe traditional role of
scientific journals, for example.
(19:54):
Some scientific journals arestill very, very rigorous, but
others, honestly, the stuffthat's getting published, you
look at it and you think well,one year as a result, one trial
site, four reps, and it getspublished as a scientifically
significant paper.
Speaker 2 (20:12):
That's just not right it filled the book, though.
Yeah, absolutely so.
It's kind of right it filledthe book, though.
Yeah, absolutely so it's kindof.
Speaker 1 (20:18):
those are the things that I'm concerned about, but
the future man, it's exciting.
Speaker 3 (20:21):
Yeah, but were those concerns there before AI had
sort of come along and isgaining the momentum that it's
getting now?
Were they there anyway?
Or is it just the access tothat kind of poor science?
Speaker 1 (20:32):
Yes, they were, but it's so much easier now to
manipulate the data.
Yeah, like I mean, I neverforget being in an animal
production society conferencewhere these two heavyweight
scientists I mean we're talking,you know, both men at the top
of their games, shouting acrossthe room, each other fighting
each other, fighting over themethodology involved in a
(20:54):
particular experiment that got aparticular result.
That was the level of debate.
It was.
People were so passionate aboutmaking sure that we're sure
there's lots of ego and prideinvolved as well, but it was
around making sure that thisdata was accurate.
Speaker 3 (21:05):
That the result was accurate.
Speaker 1 (21:07):
I just don't see that now.
I don't see that level ofpassion and commitment.
It's interesting.
Speaker 2 (21:13):
I sat on the bus at Grasslands earlier this year
beside Derek Moat and we'rehaving this exact conversation
around the use of Slido andthese technologies that ask
questions at conferences,because there's no questions
coming from the floor at theseforums anymore, and we were both
(21:34):
in the same camp.
Is that we've lost that, thosetwo industry giants that can
actually have a good hit out androbust discussion and challenge
?
Speaker 1 (21:41):
Yeah, and it's really interesting because for me,
what it did, for me as a youngscientist, I thought, oh my
goodness, if I'm going to get upand speak at this conference, I
need to know my stuff.
I need to know my stuff, I needto know it.
It needs to be accurate and Ineed to know it because if
someone has a go, there's no wayI want to be embarrassed.
Yeah, but that's not the casenow.
I mean, people are nervousabout getting up to speak, but
(22:04):
it's kind of just that rigor andthat discipline and that desire
to produce something which istrue and accurate just needs to
be lost a bit.
Speaker 2 (22:12):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, Okay.
So that's what you fear To wrapthe pod.
Yeah, we're heading intoChristmas with some cheer.
Speaker 3 (22:22):
Don't worry.
Speaker 2 (22:23):
Are you going to write all your Christmas cards
with AI?
What's some of the big thingsthat might be applicable to you?
Speaker 1 (22:31):
I'm genuinely excited about the future.
I think that when you look atthe group of consultants coming
through and the scientistscoming through, you're getting
some very, very good people anda diverse group of people, and
not just white males, you know,I think we see it.
In fact, there's often, I think, more females involved.
We've seen more people ofcolour different races, I think
(22:53):
and so that's going to get amore diverse community, which
means that, I think, a greaterunderstanding of the truth.
Actually, I hope that AI isgoing to give us more leisure
time.
It's one of the things thatI've really enjoyed.
Speaker 3 (23:06):
It's working wonders for you, right?
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (23:10):
It's the complete absence of AI in my life that's
doing that, but I think you know, in theory, this stuff should
be able to provide us an answerquicker and it should mean that
we'll have time or energy to doother things.
So you know, I mean, the futureis pretty exciting and if we
can get more accurate real-timedata, we can make more accurate
decisions and we can producemore, or we can produce the same
(23:31):
or more with less impact.
So those are the things which Ithink is pretty exciting.
Speaker 3 (23:36):
Yeah, you can certainly like.
We see some of the challengescoming through the industry and
we often make reference to thedairy industry like as a tool to
kind of help assist with someof those challenges.
Speaker 1 (23:49):
You can see it playing a really key role,
Absolutely, and also too, as thepopulation, and and and also
too, as the population gets moreand more comfortable with it,
we'll see more and more use ofit.
Speaker 3 (24:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:01):
And therefore it's only going to get better.
One of the things about AI itdoes self-learn.
Speaker 3 (24:05):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:06):
Yeah, and it does become more accurate.
So, yeah, I'm pretty excited.
Father Christmas is great.
How can you not?
Speaker 3 (24:14):
love Christmas Time with your family.
Speaker 2 (24:18):
I don't see any Christmas trees up yet.
Speaker 1 (24:18):
Not yet no decorations?
Speaker 3 (24:19):
No, yeah, I thought you might have.
Given all the spare time, youhad probably had your Christmas
tree up by now.
Speaker 2 (24:27):
You could actually volunteer to be Father Christmas
down the mall, or something aswell.
Speaker 1 (24:30):
I've got a big enough belly, hey, mate.
Speaker 2 (24:34):
It's been fantastic having you back on the pod and
catching up after what a yearthat's just flown by and just to
see what you've been up to.
And thanks for sharing, Isuppose, this AI journey as well
that you're on, amongst manyothers out there.
So good to catch up Awesome,thank you.
Thanks, wade, for joining inand chipping and thanks, bianca,
(24:57):
for all your hard work in thebackground of the pod.
And Merry Christmas to everyone.
Have a happy new year and we'llcatch you in the new year.
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