September 30, 2024 • 24 mins
Rural Professional of the Year and Senior Lecturer in Agribusiness and Management at Lincoln University, Dan Smith, joins Wade and Matt on this episode to share his strategies for nurturing future-ready students. You'll hear about his dynamic approach to equipping students with timeless skills covering the key competencies for young agricultural professionals to succeed in the rapidly evolving industry.
Dan shares the initiatives that Lincoln University is taking to develop and prepare students for the workforce. The conversation delves into the importance of soft skills, the rapid technological advancements in agriculture, and the importance of developing skills and knowledge beyond the reach of artificial intelligence.
Whether you’re passionate about traditional farming, a rural profession, or entrepreneurial ventures, Dan's insights will motivate and inform you about the boundless potential and diverse career opportunities within the agriculture sector.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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Speaker 2 (00:04):
G'day and welcome to Feed for Thought, a regular
podcast from Pioneer coveringeverything from farm systems to
crops and products and much,much more.
So welcome, guys, to Feed forThought.
As always, my name's Wade Belland with me is colleague Matt
Dalley.
So great to have you alongagain, matt.
Cheers, mate, and welcome toour Dan Smith.
(00:26):
Thanks for coming in.
Thanks very much for having me.
Yeah, very good.
So we're down here at LincolnUniversity and it's the right
place to be given the role thatyou're in.
Do you want to just reallyshare with us a little bit about
your role and your history interms of, I guess, how you got
into it?
Speaker 3 (00:42):
Sure.
Well, my title was SeniorLecturer in Agribusiness and
Management, but my job is somuch more than lecturing.
So I guess part of the job isto stand in front of students
and read slides to them anddemonstrate information and try
and get them passionate aboutlearning.
But it's also a bit to sort ofinspire them, motivate them, get
them to do their own thinking.
I also have a big role in doingservice to the university.
(01:05):
So we are on committees and wedevelop programs.
I'm on the teaching committeeand the well-being committee and
so we do a large part ofservice to the university.
And then another part of therole is engaging with the
industry.
So you know, I'm the judge forfarming competitions, I write
exams for farming competitions,I try and write for media and
(01:25):
articles and you know, sort ofhave a presence in the
agricultural industry as well.
So it's quite a broad job.
You have a whole range of hatson in this job, but they all
sort of feed each other to makeyou better at all the other
things, I guess.
Speaker 1 (01:38):
And through some of your work, there is where we've
actually where we came about,because obviously Wade and I
weren't actually Lincolnstudents, we were at other
universities.
We couldn't even find thebuilding here today at Lincoln.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
That's right, there's two of us, one of you, which I
thought was easy to find.
Speaker 1 (01:54):
But we met you the other week at the NZIPIM
conference where you wereawarded the Rural Professional
of the Year.
So well done on that.
Thanks very much.
And I was pretty keen to getyou on this podcast pretty
quickly because the way youtalked about prepping students
for the future and the way thatyou actually said it came across
fantastic.
It's like the inspiring leaderthat we probably need in this
(02:15):
space.
A lot of passion.
Speaker 3 (02:17):
Thanks very much.
Speaker 1 (02:19):
So I've pumped you up in that.
But how are you preppingstudents for the future here at?
Speaker 3 (02:24):
Lincoln.
Well, I think it's giving themtools that will last the test of
time.
So there's certain tools orskills that they will always
need, like how to make a budget,for example, but the context
that they make it in will alwaysbe changing, and it might be,
you know, whether they used todo it in a ledger and then they
started doing it in a computeron Excel.
Now there's all of thesecompanies that you know have
(02:45):
that, without naming them, butcompanies that provide that
service.
So it's more about they need toknow why they're making a
budget and the mechanics ofmaking a budget.
The context in which they'remaking it will always be
changing.
Yeah, and I kind of think, likeif you were doing a mechanics
apprenticeship, you don't justlearn to do a job on one
particular car.
The car you're working on willalways change you.
You learn the mechanics of whyyou were doing a mechanics
(03:06):
apprenticeship.
You don't just learn to do ajob on one particular car.
The car you're working on willalways change.
You learn the mechanics of whyyou're doing that job and then,
as cars change during the time.
So that's sort of one of themain things we do is the tools
will stay the same, the skillswill stay the same, but they
need to understand that thatcontext changes through time.
Not only do they need tounderstand that change in
context, but maybe understandsome of the signs of change in
(03:27):
context as well.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
How's that integrated ?
I know we've spoken brieflyalready about just the
environments in which you'reteaching.
Now I think back to when I wasat uni and I had the OHP thing
just rolling around and theycould write the notes.
Speaker 1 (03:42):
You're that old.
Speaker 2 (03:45):
But how has that learning environment changed?
Is that a lot different?
Speaker 3 (03:49):
We still do a bit of that.
I love a good bit of whiteboardwork.
I do a lot of the finance andinvestment analysis stuff.
So I do do a lot of picturesand graphs and that is I explain
.
You know inflation and thatsort of thing.
So I do like chalk and talk.
I call it talking while writingon the whiteboard.
We do use a lot of slides aswell, powerpoint slides and so
on.
But we do have like evolvingteaching spaces.
(04:12):
Obviously we have like theliving labs and the farms and
the off-campus type stuff.
But even if you think of alecture theatre at the
university, we do have ones thatare like movie theatres.
You stand up the front with abig screen behind you and they
sit in rows and listen and takenotes.
But like this new building thatwe're in now has some amazing
big lecture theaters and thestudents sit in pods so like
(04:33):
maybe groups of 10 and theremight be 10 groups of 10.
So it really leads tointeraction with the group and
you can say to, instead ofsaying to the students I'll talk
, talk and you listen, you cansay can every table come up with
one example of X and thennominate someone at the table to
share it with the class.
So for a start it makes themtalk to the other nine students
(04:54):
at their pod, which they mightnot sitting in a row, gets them
engaged in the learning, sort ofpulls them into what we're
doing, and then we can discussthat Do they shift around those
pods or do people stay in theirgroups?
I don't really notice.
I'm sure that some of them dostay in their groups, but it's
probably the one that turns upto uni by themselves and feels a
(05:16):
bit outcast.
They probably sit with someonedifferent every day because they
don't have that click and it'sprobably really good for their
Wait, you might add some friends.
It's okay's for all.
Speaker 1 (05:29):
Sorry, mate, I'm sure you had plenty of friends.
So what are some of the skillsthat these guys are going to
need going forward, or some ofthose competencies you talked
about how they learn the context?
What are some of those softskills that you talked about?
Speaker 3 (05:43):
The soft skills they're going to need is
probably what we've alwaysneeded, like the ability to
relate to people, the ability tocommunicate, the ability to
work in a team and, like you say, some of them might just stick
in their same clique all thetime, whereas when you get a job
, you don't get to choose who'salready there at this workplace,
and there might be guys our agethere might be older, there
might be people that youwouldn't normally hang around
(06:03):
with.
So you need those soft skillsto relate to a whole bunch of
people.
You might have intimidatingmanagers that you need to be
able to relate to.
You need to be able to write.
You need to be able to probablycontact people via email and
text and maybe even makingvideos to send to your manager
about this maize crop what'swrong with this crop.
So the soft skills are whatthey've always.
(06:23):
I think it's maybe mygeneration were better at that
because we were forced to dothat.
Speaker 1 (06:28):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (06:28):
We couldn't communicate by phone and text.
You know we had to organize atime to meet and you know
carpool and all that sort ofthing.
Speaker 2 (06:35):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (06:36):
But I think the soft skills are, you know, just sort
of growing up skills.
Speaker 1 (06:40):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (06:40):
Communication, talking, making relationships
and making effective workrelationships as well.
Speaker 2 (06:47):
Yeah, so is that more intentionally?
You know you talked about thestructure of the learning
environment.
Is that more intentionallydesigned to try and facilitate
that, more so than it wassomething that you were perhaps
brought up with because youdidn't have so much technology
at hand?
Speaker 3 (07:03):
It was probably intentionally designed Like we
are going to flat teachingspaces, so I can only assume
that there's thought behind thatthat there are more effective
ways of teaching.
We do get feedback from somestudents that they prefer they
sit there in a row and writewhile we talk, and then other
students prefer that sitting inpods and screens all around and
(07:23):
so on.
So we do like to work on youknow you might adjust your
teaching style based on yourteaching space and it might be.
I've taught this course forfive years where they sit there
and write notes and I talk.
Now we've got this new andimproved teaching space.
I need to get the studentsinvolved and that might help us
improve our courses.
And then it might not.
We might end up saying to theuniversity actually I think my
(07:47):
course works better when theysit there and write notes and I
stand here and talk because I'mteaching them maths.
Speaker 2 (07:50):
Yeah, so what do you see?
We're obviously in the agsector.
What are the changes thatyou're seeing in the rural
professional space that you'rekind of having to adapt to?
Speaker 3 (08:01):
I think it's moving a lot faster with technology.
As soon as you hear of one newtechnology, there's another one
that surpassed it.
It seems like a week laterthere's a lot of on the surface
of it.
You feel like there's a lot ofofferings of the same product
from different companies and youwonder how they all survive.
So you need to be able to sortof get quick onto what that is
(08:21):
and weigh that up and decide.
You know, is it useful for yourbusiness or do you move on to
the next one?
So, assessing that technology,what about?
Speaker 1 (08:29):
AI.
Yeah, exactly Like probablyrocking some.
Speaker 3 (08:34):
On campus it is.
Speaker 1 (08:35):
On campus, but how are you prepping them to
actually be able to utilize?
Speaker 3 (08:40):
Well, even for my generation, it's hard for us to
understand AI.
One thing I always say to thestudents is this might be one of
your biggest competitors.
When you get out there, youknow there are jobs that can
already be done by AI.
A friend of mine said to me theother day I'm probably not
going to need my admin staffanymore because AI can do it for
me.
And I always say to thestudents don't outsource your
(09:00):
education to AI, because that'sgoing to be your competitor in
the marketplace, so you need tolearn stuff that it doesn't know
.
Speaker 1 (09:09):
But probably back to what you're saying how they
interact with then AI.
There's skills in that space aswell.
Speaker 3 (09:15):
Yeah, and people use AI like get AI to write an
article about New Zealandagriculture and then critique it
.
Speaker 1 (09:23):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (09:23):
And show where you were smarter than AI.
It is handy for some studentsif you give them like an
assignment question.
They might be confused aboutwhat does he actually want as
the answer to this question andthey might say to AI interpret
this question, and it mightbreak it down and sort of make
it easier for them to digest.
But yeah, even for someone ofmy generation it's pretty hard
(09:44):
to understand and keep up withthat kind of technology yeah,
yeah, are the students reallylike, are they?
Speaker 2 (09:50):
I guess they'll be embracing it at different levels
, but are they?
I assume there'll be somepretty smart cookies floating
around here that'll be latchingonto that stuff and be quite
well advanced smarter than I amon that it stuff I know, know
and way smarter than Matt.
Yeah, he'll be without a job,no job.
Speaker 3 (10:08):
I remember telling the students once about this
platform that we had, and I wasexplaining how the downside was
is that you can't copy and pastein this platform, and then one
of the girls come up after classand says you can copy and paste
in this platform, you just haveto know how to do it.
And I'm thinking I'm trying togive these 20-year-olds any sort
of computer or IT advice thatthey're ahead of me on all of
(10:29):
that.
Speaker 2 (10:29):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, they're out stripping you.
Speaker 1 (10:31):
So some of the advice that you and we were talking
before the podcast about how youworked up in the North
Canterbury in the fertilizergame and dealing with farmers in
remote locations and back tothose soft skills, I suppose
what are some of the things thatyou've been doing with some of
your students.
Speaker 3 (10:50):
Well, so the main thing I've been doing.
So a bit of my background is Iwas a truck driver for a family
business for years and then wenton OE and so on.
I didn't come back and comeinto education until like the
second half of my 20s and I cameto Lincoln and did a dip ag, a
dip farm management, a B-com agand a master's.
I did my master's on Eco-En,which you might have heard of,
the nitrification inhibitor.
During all of that I put myselfa Fert Rep for Ravenstown,
(11:20):
which was a great job with agreat company.
I did it for five years, greatcustomers.
But yeah, I was the Fert Repfor North Canterbury.
I was a bachelor living on myown for a start.
I had a lot of clients thatwere bachelors.
It was a few dry years that Iwas up there.
The red meat price was down,the wool price was down and
there was a lot of sort ofmental distress in my clients
(11:42):
and there were times when Iwould sit at a kitchen table and
make a first plan and I couldtell the client didn't want me
to leave afterwards becausemaybe, you know, they've had a
rough week.
I might have been the onlyperson they've talked to all
week, and so there was quite abit of sort of depression and
isolation around in my clients.
Anyway, then I went and workedfor the bank in the city, in
Christchurch Square, metrobanking, commercial banking and
(12:04):
I sort of forgot about all ofthat.
And then after five years ofthat, my old master's supervisor
retired and he rang me up andsaid you should come and
interview for this job.
I always thought you'd be goodat this.
So anyway, come out andinterviewed and I really liked
the place.
I was telling someone elserecently, it just sort of felt
right.
After that first interview Idrove back to my old job
(12:25):
thinking, yeah, that's where I'msupposed to be, and I even went
back and told my assistant I'mdone here, anyway.
So I came back to the universityand one of the things I
remembered most clearly aboutagriculture was all of that
mental stuff.
And we don't really talk aboutthat at university.
And I remember thinking younever really told me when I was
here for all those years doingall those qualifications how
(12:48):
common mental distress is in theagriculture industry.
And now you want me to takeover these agricultural programs
.
But there's no way I'm doingthat without touching on this
mental health stuff.
So first thing I did was runFarmStrong and said you know, I
want to incorporate mentalhealth management into our
programs at Lincoln.
And they flew down here and wehad multiple meetings and over
(13:10):
the last five or six years.
We have become the leadinguniversity in giving the
students skills to deal withmental distress, understanding
the signs and causes of mentaldistress and what they can do
about it and how to manage it,and so on.
Speaker 1 (13:24):
So it's actually part of their learnings, it's part
of the curriculum.
Speaker 3 (13:28):
So we have really two streams the degree stream and
the diploma stream.
So the diploma stream has threedifferent mental health
activities that they do duringthe course of their studies and
the degrees have six and some ofthem are part of the course is
worth 100%, some of them are 10%, or exam questions or an
(13:50):
assignment, or you get a certainpercentage for attending this
workshop and so on.
So we do a lot in that mentalhealth space because those
things the isolation, theweather, the lumpiness of the
workflow you can't control theinput cost, you can't control
the outgoing prices they'reprobably never going away and
they're not limited to justfarming Like your reps.
(14:12):
People on the road.
They might live in an isolatedcommunity, spend their time out
on their own in a ute having atough season Maybe their
company's had a bad year andthey're in between the company
and the farmers.
So I think it's reallyimportant that we cover that
stuff.
Speaker 2 (14:29):
And that's very different too, I think back to
when I was in university.
None of that, essentially.
So it's a big shift in the softskills.
Speaker 3 (14:38):
You would never when I was 20, you would never have
told someone that I think Imight be depressed.
You would never have said thatto anyone.
You would have just kept thatto yourself, and it only takes
one person out there to say thatto someone instead of taking an
alternative route, and it'skind of all worth it to me.
I think, we also know thatuniversity students struggle.
You know there's very lumpyworkload, academic pressures.
(15:01):
You imagine the socialpressures on young people these
days, the financial pressures.
You know they're squeezed intoa flat and they can't afford to
fill their car up and they'reworried about failing the course
.
And they've got threeassignments due but they have to
go to this party tomorrow nightand be as well-dressed as
everyone else.
They have to fit in.
So we want to care about theirmental health while they're here
(15:21):
, but also they're prepared totake that with them.
So that's why we do it withoutapologies.
It's part of what we do herenow, yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:31):
And so you talked a bit about the rural professional
but also farmers that areleaving, because there's I don't
know what's the proportion ofactual students leaving Lincoln
actually going into activefarming versus RP, and do they
need those same skills as well?
Speaker 3 (15:45):
Yeah, of the programs I'm involved in, it's about 50%
go farming oh, wow, yeah,especially in the diploma
programs, yes, and the other 50%about 50% of them go into
related industries and otherones end up in other places.
But, like I say, I thinkisolation, whether you're a
farmer or a rep, obviously itdepends where you're located.
I worked in the vegetableindustry in the UK for a few
(16:08):
years and you're never isolated.
On a typical day you probablysee a million people, but there
might be reps out here that arevery isolated and they might
only have a few briefconversations with a farmer in a
day and then go back to a, youknow, a house that they live on,
live in on their own in a verysmall town, um, that thing
around the.
How buoyant is the market?
Hasn't rained, you know?
(16:29):
You know, has your company hada bad year?
So I think that a lot of causesof mental distress do do apply
right across the board, asopposed to this only applies to
farmers.
Don't worry about the reps,they're all good.
Speaker 1 (16:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (16:42):
Or whoever else is involved in rural, and it
doesn't mean that urban peopledon't need these skills as well.
Speaker 2 (16:47):
Yeah.
So just sort of taking that alittle bit further in terms of
what Matt was talking aboutabout the numbers of students,
how are you seeing the pipelineof students sort of coming
through with related fields toagriculture?
You know the numbers comingthrough, the opportunities that
are out there.
Is that reasonably wellbalanced or out of balance?
Speaker 3 (17:08):
Lincoln is the biggest it's ever been.
So we're having our biggestenrolment year on year and we
have been for a few years.
At the other end of that, we'rehaving our biggest graduation
year on year.
So the university's growingwell.
So there's a good pipeline ofstudents coming in and, I think,
the ones going out.
It typically doesn't change.
These are the same amount offarms out there.
There's probably moreassociated businesses.
(17:28):
I don't know if farm workersper hectare has changed very
much in New Zealand agricultureover the last 50 years.
It is quite hard to keep trackof where they end up.
We do get an indication oftheir first job, but quite a few
will change that after sixmonths.
Speaker 2 (17:42):
Yeah, yeah, the statistics would say they'd
change probably four or fivetimes in the first.
Speaker 3 (17:47):
Which is fine by me.
Speaker 2 (17:48):
And.
Speaker 3 (17:48):
I keep telling them that's okay.
If you get out there and getthis dream job that you've
always wanted and you end up notliking it, there's no problem
at all.
You just start looking foranother job.
Another thing I do a lot of isI go to high schools and I talk
to students about our programsand they'll come up to me and
say I want to do X job andthat's why I'm coming to Lincoln
, I want to do this.
And they come and they do thewhole three years and then they
(18:09):
get that job and they realize Ididn't actually know anything
about this job.
Some cool guy and a cool.
Speaker 2 (18:15):
You turned up once and I thought that was me.
Speaker 3 (18:17):
And I say, if you do that and don't like it, you
haven't failed.
You haven't let yourself down.
You haven't let mum and daddown.
You were 17 when you decidedyou wanted to do this.
Now you're 22.
You've got all this education.
You know better now.
Speaker 1 (18:30):
So you want to change .
You change and take thatexperience to the next job and
be more rounded for it you needto feel right where you are.
Speaker 3 (18:37):
I think If you feel right where you are and you're
passionate, then you'll getahead.
If you're doing something thatyou don't enjoy, I think you're
just wasting your time.
You're just trying to pay thebills when you're doing that.
Speaker 1 (18:47):
And not to put people in boxes but has the makeup of
the ag student changed?
So I'll give you an insight.
I went to the Massey Awardslast year year before and up on
stage they brought all their newgraduates and it was 90%,
easily, were female, and so evenback to when I was there, it's
(19:07):
probably the other way around.
Speaker 2 (19:08):
Yeah Well, it was probably more a 50-50 split, but
you take it back another 10.
Speaker 1 (19:12):
So what does the student look like now?
Are they still walking around?
We're at about 50-50 nowstudent look like now.
Speaker 3 (19:18):
Are they still walking around?
We're at about 50 50 now.
I think we're 54 female oncampus.
Some programs are more female,like agri-food marketing, for
example.
The proportion is higher than54 female.
Maybe like our diploma ofagriculture, it's more than 50
male.
Yeah, um, but the campus isjust over 50 50 in favor of
females.
When I was a student here, itwas probably 20 female.
There's a lady in my office.
(19:39):
She works here as a tutor.
She graduated in 1978 and shewas the only female in her class
.
Yeah, it's a huge shift, yeahyou go and look at some of the
old photos around campus andthere's not many females around,
yeah, which is great to see,yeah, yeah definitely, and it
makes it a lot easier for thesocial life too?
Speaker 2 (19:57):
doesn social life, yeah, yeah, a lot more balance?
Speaker 3 (20:00):
and then they get those, maybe as well.
Yeah, no, the mullet's stillaround wild here.
Speaker 1 (20:06):
Before we get down into too many trends.
International students startingto come back as well.
They're starting to.
Speaker 3 (20:11):
We've grown our domestic students by quite a lot
, you're right, butinternational students are
starting to grow again.
We actually manage COVID prettywell with keeping our pipeline
and keeping our internationalrelationships going.
So as rules change we've sortof been one step ahead of
getting the students back.
But our domestic role has growna lot as well and I think maybe
people appreciated agricultureand food and the good jobs.
Speaker 1 (20:34):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (20:35):
South Island and Canterbury are a nice place to
be.
So there's a lot of thingswe've done, and then there's a
lot of things that our locationand our industry have done for
us.
Speaker 1 (20:42):
Yeah, what are some of the opportunities for some of
these young people goingforward?
Speaker 3 (20:47):
Right, there's a whole lot of opportunities.
And we were saying before thepodcast the mentality has always
been if only I was dad'sgeneration, you know, farms were
cheaper, if only I wasgranddad's generation farms were
cheaper, or all these companiesdidn't exist and I could have
started X business and Ybusiness.
I think those opportunities arealways going to be out there.
They might look slightlydifferent, they might be
(21:11):
recognized in a different way.
I think if you are intelligentand have good work ethic, um,
look for opportunities.
I think there's alwaysopportunities out there.
there's always going to bescrewed wide yeah yeah, you're
lucky, you've got a job already,mate there's always going to be
good professional jobs likeours as well.
You don't have to be anentrepreneur to have a good job
in the industry right we'realways going to want good rural
professionals.
people are going to always wantto deal with people.
(21:32):
I can't see AI replacing all ofthe reps out there in the
industry.
I mean there's 8,000 ruralcontracting businesses, so I
mean they're veryentrepreneurial, hardworking
people.
There's a lot of great jobs inthat industry that people will
be able to do and thenextracting more value for our
products.
That's where the opportunity is.
Can we get more value?
We can try and produce stufffor less, which would be nice,
(21:55):
but we've got to have thatquality food and that safe food.
Can we extract more value fromthe market for our safe food?
It's probably where theopportunities are is getting
that value in.
Speaker 2 (22:08):
Yeah, that's a good insight, isn't it?
Because you can only reducecost to a point.
Speaker 3 (22:10):
To a certain degree, it needs to be safe and quality.
Speaker 2 (22:14):
Yeah, where's the value and the value is kind of
almost potentially is unlimited,whereas reducing the cost is
limited to a certain end point.
Speaker 3 (22:23):
And we need to have an advantage in what we're doing
, because typically, if you'relike adding labor to a product,
do we have an advantage inadding labour to a product to
extract value?
Probably not.
So we probably might need toadd other characteristics to our
products and make sure we'regetting it to the right place
where people are willing to playfor those characteristics.
Speaker 2 (22:41):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, nice Look, I think that's
actually quite a nice place tosort of pull this together,
because we always sort of liketo finish on the, on the
positive, the opportunities.
Speaker 1 (22:51):
Uh, it'd be pretty sour leaving on a bad note.
Speaker 2 (22:55):
Yeah yeah, look, the thing that really jumps out at
me and we probably didn't spenda lot, a lot of time on it, but
love your passion and that inthose softer skills.
I think that's probably one ofthe things that drew matt and I
to wanting to have theconversation with you, because,
uh, you know, it's a, it's aspace where there is a lot of
talk in the industry about theisolation, the distress that can
come up, and so, you know, loveyour work and love to hear that
(23:16):
it's sort of getting built intothe program.
So that's kind of, I guess, akey point from my point of view.
Speaker 1 (23:23):
I mean again just congratulations on the award.
And I think it's on the back ofall that hard work and
preparing these young people forthe future.
I mean to think even back 10years, when I left to have some
of those skills would havehelped me in that first six
months.
Speaker 2 (23:38):
You'd be way better to work with.
There'd be a whole lot morepositives for the whole industry
.
Speaker 1 (23:42):
I think, but instead of here's the keys, away you go.
Speaker 3 (23:45):
That's what it was like for me.
Speaker 1 (23:46):
Yeah, and I think having some of those softer
skills might have helped, yeah,yeah so.
Speaker 3 (23:51):
So kudos to you, mate .
Oh, thanks very much.
Thanks for having me.
Speaker 2 (23:54):
Yeah, no, nice one.
So you know, hopefully ourlisteners have enjoyed the
podcast today.
Dan, it's been great to haveyou on, We've really enjoyed it
and and we look forward to youlistening next time.
Thanks very much, Thanks, Dan.
Thanks, Glenn Cheers.
G'day and welcome to Feed for Thought, a regular
podcast from Pioneer coveringeverything from farm systems to
crops and products and much,much more.
So welcome, guys, to Feed forThought.
As always, my name's Wade Belland with me is colleague Matt
Dalley.
So great to have you alongagain, matt.
Cheers, mate, and welcome toour Dan Smith.
(00:26):
Thanks for coming in.
Thanks very much for having me.
Yeah, very good.
So we're down here at LincolnUniversity and it's the right
place to be given the role thatyou're in.
Do you want to just reallyshare with us a little bit about
your role and your history interms of, I guess, how you got
into it?
Speaker 3 (00:42):
Sure.
Well, my title was SeniorLecturer in Agribusiness and
Management, but my job is somuch more than lecturing.
So I guess part of the job isto stand in front of students
and read slides to them anddemonstrate information and try
and get them passionate aboutlearning.
But it's also a bit to sort ofinspire them, motivate them, get
them to do their own thinking.
I also have a big role in doingservice to the university.
(01:05):
So we are on committees and wedevelop programs.
I'm on the teaching committeeand the well-being committee and
so we do a large part ofservice to the university.
And then another part of therole is engaging with the
industry.
So you know, I'm the judge forfarming competitions, I write
exams for farming competitions,I try and write for media and
(01:25):
articles and you know, sort ofhave a presence in the
agricultural industry as well.
So it's quite a broad job.
You have a whole range of hatson in this job, but they all
sort of feed each other to makeyou better at all the other
things, I guess.
Speaker 1 (01:38):
And through some of your work, there is where we've
actually where we came about,because obviously Wade and I
weren't actually Lincolnstudents, we were at other
universities.
We couldn't even find thebuilding here today at Lincoln.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
That's right, there's two of us, one of you, which I
thought was easy to find.
Speaker 1 (01:54):
But we met you the other week at the NZIPIM
conference where you wereawarded the Rural Professional
of the Year.
So well done on that.
Thanks very much.
And I was pretty keen to getyou on this podcast pretty
quickly because the way youtalked about prepping students
for the future and the way thatyou actually said it came across
fantastic.
It's like the inspiring leaderthat we probably need in this
(02:15):
space.
A lot of passion.
Speaker 3 (02:17):
Thanks very much.
Speaker 1 (02:19):
So I've pumped you up in that.
But how are you preppingstudents for the future here at?
Speaker 3 (02:24):
Lincoln.
Well, I think it's giving themtools that will last the test of
time.
So there's certain tools orskills that they will always
need, like how to make a budget,for example, but the context
that they make it in will alwaysbe changing, and it might be,
you know, whether they used todo it in a ledger and then they
started doing it in a computeron Excel.
Now there's all of thesecompanies that you know have
(02:45):
that, without naming them, butcompanies that provide that
service.
So it's more about they need toknow why they're making a
budget and the mechanics ofmaking a budget.
The context in which they'remaking it will always be
changing.
Yeah, and I kind of think, likeif you were doing a mechanics
apprenticeship, you don't justlearn to do a job on one
particular car.
The car you're working on willalways change you.
You learn the mechanics of whyyou were doing a mechanics
(03:06):
apprenticeship.
You don't just learn to do ajob on one particular car.
The car you're working on willalways change.
You learn the mechanics of whyyou're doing that job and then,
as cars change during the time.
So that's sort of one of themain things we do is the tools
will stay the same, the skillswill stay the same, but they
need to understand that thatcontext changes through time.
Not only do they need tounderstand that change in
context, but maybe understandsome of the signs of change in
(03:27):
context as well.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
How's that integrated ?
I know we've spoken brieflyalready about just the
environments in which you'reteaching.
Now I think back to when I wasat uni and I had the OHP thing
just rolling around and theycould write the notes.
Speaker 1 (03:42):
You're that old.
Speaker 2 (03:45):
But how has that learning environment changed?
Is that a lot different?
Speaker 3 (03:49):
We still do a bit of that.
I love a good bit of whiteboardwork.
I do a lot of the finance andinvestment analysis stuff.
So I do do a lot of picturesand graphs and that is I explain
.
You know inflation and thatsort of thing.
So I do like chalk and talk.
I call it talking while writingon the whiteboard.
We do use a lot of slides aswell, powerpoint slides and so
on.
But we do have like evolvingteaching spaces.
(04:12):
Obviously we have like theliving labs and the farms and
the off-campus type stuff.
But even if you think of alecture theatre at the
university, we do have ones thatare like movie theatres.
You stand up the front with abig screen behind you and they
sit in rows and listen and takenotes.
But like this new building thatwe're in now has some amazing
big lecture theaters and thestudents sit in pods so like
(04:33):
maybe groups of 10 and theremight be 10 groups of 10.
So it really leads tointeraction with the group and
you can say to, instead ofsaying to the students I'll talk
, talk and you listen, you cansay can every table come up with
one example of X and thennominate someone at the table to
share it with the class.
So for a start it makes themtalk to the other nine students
(04:54):
at their pod, which they mightnot sitting in a row, gets them
engaged in the learning, sort ofpulls them into what we're
doing, and then we can discussthat Do they shift around those
pods or do people stay in theirgroups?
I don't really notice.
I'm sure that some of them dostay in their groups, but it's
probably the one that turns upto uni by themselves and feels a
(05:16):
bit outcast.
They probably sit with someonedifferent every day because they
don't have that click and it'sprobably really good for their
Wait, you might add some friends.
It's okay's for all.
Speaker 1 (05:29):
Sorry, mate, I'm sure you had plenty of friends.
So what are some of the skillsthat these guys are going to
need going forward, or some ofthose competencies you talked
about how they learn the context?
What are some of those softskills that you talked about?
Speaker 3 (05:43):
The soft skills they're going to need is
probably what we've alwaysneeded, like the ability to
relate to people, the ability tocommunicate, the ability to
work in a team and, like you say, some of them might just stick
in their same clique all thetime, whereas when you get a job
, you don't get to choose who'salready there at this workplace,
and there might be guys our agethere might be older, there
might be people that youwouldn't normally hang around
(06:03):
with.
So you need those soft skillsto relate to a whole bunch of
people.
You might have intimidatingmanagers that you need to be
able to relate to.
You need to be able to write.
You need to be able to probablycontact people via email and
text and maybe even makingvideos to send to your manager
about this maize crop what'swrong with this crop.
So the soft skills are whatthey've always.
(06:23):
I think it's maybe mygeneration were better at that
because we were forced to dothat.
Speaker 1 (06:28):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (06:28):
We couldn't communicate by phone and text.
You know we had to organize atime to meet and you know
carpool and all that sort ofthing.
Speaker 2 (06:35):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (06:36):
But I think the soft skills are, you know, just sort
of growing up skills.
Speaker 1 (06:40):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (06:40):
Communication, talking, making relationships
and making effective workrelationships as well.
Speaker 2 (06:47):
Yeah, so is that more intentionally?
You know you talked about thestructure of the learning
environment.
Is that more intentionallydesigned to try and facilitate
that, more so than it wassomething that you were perhaps
brought up with because youdidn't have so much technology
at hand?
Speaker 3 (07:03):
It was probably intentionally designed Like we
are going to flat teachingspaces, so I can only assume
that there's thought behind thatthat there are more effective
ways of teaching.
We do get feedback from somestudents that they prefer they
sit there in a row and writewhile we talk, and then other
students prefer that sitting inpods and screens all around and
(07:23):
so on.
So we do like to work on youknow you might adjust your
teaching style based on yourteaching space and it might be.
I've taught this course forfive years where they sit there
and write notes and I talk.
Now we've got this new andimproved teaching space.
I need to get the studentsinvolved and that might help us
improve our courses.
And then it might not.
We might end up saying to theuniversity actually I think my
(07:47):
course works better when theysit there and write notes and I
stand here and talk because I'mteaching them maths.
Speaker 2 (07:50):
Yeah, so what do you see?
We're obviously in the agsector.
What are the changes thatyou're seeing in the rural
professional space that you'rekind of having to adapt to?
Speaker 3 (08:01):
I think it's moving a lot faster with technology.
As soon as you hear of one newtechnology, there's another one
that surpassed it.
It seems like a week laterthere's a lot of on the surface
of it.
You feel like there's a lot ofofferings of the same product
from different companies and youwonder how they all survive.
So you need to be able to sortof get quick onto what that is
(08:21):
and weigh that up and decide.
You know, is it useful for yourbusiness or do you move on to
the next one?
So, assessing that technology,what about?
Speaker 1 (08:29):
AI.
Yeah, exactly Like probablyrocking some.
Speaker 3 (08:34):
On campus it is.
Speaker 1 (08:35):
On campus, but how are you prepping them to
actually be able to utilize?
Speaker 3 (08:40):
Well, even for my generation, it's hard for us to
understand AI.
One thing I always say to thestudents is this might be one of
your biggest competitors.
When you get out there, youknow there are jobs that can
already be done by AI.
A friend of mine said to me theother day I'm probably not
going to need my admin staffanymore because AI can do it for
me.
And I always say to thestudents don't outsource your
(09:00):
education to AI, because that'sgoing to be your competitor in
the marketplace, so you need tolearn stuff that it doesn't know
.
Speaker 1 (09:09):
But probably back to what you're saying how they
interact with then AI.
There's skills in that space aswell.
Speaker 3 (09:15):
Yeah, and people use AI like get AI to write an
article about New Zealandagriculture and then critique it
.
Speaker 1 (09:23):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (09:23):
And show where you were smarter than AI.
It is handy for some studentsif you give them like an
assignment question.
They might be confused aboutwhat does he actually want as
the answer to this question andthey might say to AI interpret
this question, and it mightbreak it down and sort of make
it easier for them to digest.
But yeah, even for someone ofmy generation it's pretty hard
(09:44):
to understand and keep up withthat kind of technology yeah,
yeah, are the students reallylike, are they?
Speaker 2 (09:50):
I guess they'll be embracing it at different levels
, but are they?
I assume there'll be somepretty smart cookies floating
around here that'll be latchingonto that stuff and be quite
well advanced smarter than I amon that it stuff I know, know
and way smarter than Matt.
Yeah, he'll be without a job,no job.
Speaker 3 (10:08):
I remember telling the students once about this
platform that we had, and I wasexplaining how the downside was
is that you can't copy and pastein this platform, and then one
of the girls come up after classand says you can copy and paste
in this platform, you just haveto know how to do it.
And I'm thinking I'm trying togive these 20-year-olds any sort
of computer or IT advice thatthey're ahead of me on all of
(10:29):
that.
Speaker 2 (10:29):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, they're out stripping you.
Speaker 1 (10:31):
So some of the advice that you and we were talking
before the podcast about how youworked up in the North
Canterbury in the fertilizergame and dealing with farmers in
remote locations and back tothose soft skills, I suppose
what are some of the things thatyou've been doing with some of
your students.
Speaker 3 (10:50):
Well, so the main thing I've been doing.
So a bit of my background is Iwas a truck driver for a family
business for years and then wenton OE and so on.
I didn't come back and comeinto education until like the
second half of my 20s and I cameto Lincoln and did a dip ag, a
dip farm management, a B-com agand a master's.
I did my master's on Eco-En,which you might have heard of,
the nitrification inhibitor.
During all of that I put myselfa Fert Rep for Ravenstown,
(11:20):
which was a great job with agreat company.
I did it for five years, greatcustomers.
But yeah, I was the Fert Repfor North Canterbury.
I was a bachelor living on myown for a start.
I had a lot of clients thatwere bachelors.
It was a few dry years that Iwas up there.
The red meat price was down,the wool price was down and
there was a lot of sort ofmental distress in my clients
(11:42):
and there were times when Iwould sit at a kitchen table and
make a first plan and I couldtell the client didn't want me
to leave afterwards becausemaybe, you know, they've had a
rough week.
I might have been the onlyperson they've talked to all
week, and so there was quite abit of sort of depression and
isolation around in my clients.
Anyway, then I went and workedfor the bank in the city, in
Christchurch Square, metrobanking, commercial banking and
(12:04):
I sort of forgot about all ofthat.
And then after five years ofthat, my old master's supervisor
retired and he rang me up andsaid you should come and
interview for this job.
I always thought you'd be goodat this.
So anyway, come out andinterviewed and I really liked
the place.
I was telling someone elserecently, it just sort of felt
right.
After that first interview Idrove back to my old job
(12:25):
thinking, yeah, that's where I'msupposed to be, and I even went
back and told my assistant I'mdone here, anyway.
So I came back to the universityand one of the things I
remembered most clearly aboutagriculture was all of that
mental stuff.
And we don't really talk aboutthat at university.
And I remember thinking younever really told me when I was
here for all those years doingall those qualifications how
(12:48):
common mental distress is in theagriculture industry.
And now you want me to takeover these agricultural programs
.
But there's no way I'm doingthat without touching on this
mental health stuff.
So first thing I did was runFarmStrong and said you know, I
want to incorporate mentalhealth management into our
programs at Lincoln.
And they flew down here and wehad multiple meetings and over
(13:10):
the last five or six years.
We have become the leadinguniversity in giving the
students skills to deal withmental distress, understanding
the signs and causes of mentaldistress and what they can do
about it and how to manage it,and so on.
Speaker 1 (13:24):
So it's actually part of their learnings, it's part
of the curriculum.
Speaker 3 (13:28):
So we have really two streams the degree stream and
the diploma stream.
So the diploma stream has threedifferent mental health
activities that they do duringthe course of their studies and
the degrees have six and some ofthem are part of the course is
worth 100%, some of them are 10%, or exam questions or an
(13:50):
assignment, or you get a certainpercentage for attending this
workshop and so on.
So we do a lot in that mentalhealth space because those
things the isolation, theweather, the lumpiness of the
workflow you can't control theinput cost, you can't control
the outgoing prices they'reprobably never going away and
they're not limited to justfarming Like your reps.
(14:12):
People on the road.
They might live in an isolatedcommunity, spend their time out
on their own in a ute having atough season Maybe their
company's had a bad year andthey're in between the company
and the farmers.
So I think it's reallyimportant that we cover that
stuff.
Speaker 2 (14:29):
And that's very different too, I think back to
when I was in university.
None of that, essentially.
So it's a big shift in the softskills.
Speaker 3 (14:38):
You would never when I was 20, you would never have
told someone that I think Imight be depressed.
You would never have said thatto anyone.
You would have just kept thatto yourself, and it only takes
one person out there to say thatto someone instead of taking an
alternative route, and it'skind of all worth it to me.
I think, we also know thatuniversity students struggle.
You know there's very lumpyworkload, academic pressures.
(15:01):
You imagine the socialpressures on young people these
days, the financial pressures.
You know they're squeezed intoa flat and they can't afford to
fill their car up and they'reworried about failing the course
.
And they've got threeassignments due but they have to
go to this party tomorrow nightand be as well-dressed as
everyone else.
They have to fit in.
So we want to care about theirmental health while they're here
(15:21):
, but also they're prepared totake that with them.
So that's why we do it withoutapologies.
It's part of what we do herenow, yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:31):
And so you talked a bit about the rural professional
but also farmers that areleaving, because there's I don't
know what's the proportion ofactual students leaving Lincoln
actually going into activefarming versus RP, and do they
need those same skills as well?
Speaker 3 (15:45):
Yeah, of the programs I'm involved in, it's about 50%
go farming oh, wow, yeah,especially in the diploma
programs, yes, and the other 50%about 50% of them go into
related industries and otherones end up in other places.
But, like I say, I thinkisolation, whether you're a
farmer or a rep, obviously itdepends where you're located.
I worked in the vegetableindustry in the UK for a few
(16:08):
years and you're never isolated.
On a typical day you probablysee a million people, but there
might be reps out here that arevery isolated and they might
only have a few briefconversations with a farmer in a
day and then go back to a, youknow, a house that they live on,
live in on their own in a verysmall town, um, that thing
around the.
How buoyant is the market?
Hasn't rained, you know?
(16:29):
You know, has your company hada bad year?
So I think that a lot of causesof mental distress do do apply
right across the board, asopposed to this only applies to
farmers.
Don't worry about the reps,they're all good.
Speaker 1 (16:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (16:42):
Or whoever else is involved in rural, and it
doesn't mean that urban peopledon't need these skills as well.
Speaker 2 (16:47):
Yeah.
So just sort of taking that alittle bit further in terms of
what Matt was talking aboutabout the numbers of students,
how are you seeing the pipelineof students sort of coming
through with related fields toagriculture?
You know the numbers comingthrough, the opportunities that
are out there.
Is that reasonably wellbalanced or out of balance?
Speaker 3 (17:08):
Lincoln is the biggest it's ever been.
So we're having our biggestenrolment year on year and we
have been for a few years.
At the other end of that, we'rehaving our biggest graduation
year on year.
So the university's growingwell.
So there's a good pipeline ofstudents coming in and, I think,
the ones going out.
It typically doesn't change.
These are the same amount offarms out there.
There's probably moreassociated businesses.
(17:28):
I don't know if farm workersper hectare has changed very
much in New Zealand agricultureover the last 50 years.
It is quite hard to keep trackof where they end up.
We do get an indication oftheir first job, but quite a few
will change that after sixmonths.
Speaker 2 (17:42):
Yeah, yeah, the statistics would say they'd
change probably four or fivetimes in the first.
Speaker 3 (17:47):
Which is fine by me.
Speaker 2 (17:48):
And.
Speaker 3 (17:48):
I keep telling them that's okay.
If you get out there and getthis dream job that you've
always wanted and you end up notliking it, there's no problem
at all.
You just start looking foranother job.
Another thing I do a lot of isI go to high schools and I talk
to students about our programsand they'll come up to me and
say I want to do X job andthat's why I'm coming to Lincoln
, I want to do this.
And they come and they do thewhole three years and then they
(18:09):
get that job and they realize Ididn't actually know anything
about this job.
Some cool guy and a cool.
Speaker 2 (18:15):
You turned up once and I thought that was me.
Speaker 3 (18:17):
And I say, if you do that and don't like it, you
haven't failed.
You haven't let yourself down.
You haven't let mum and daddown.
You were 17 when you decidedyou wanted to do this.
Now you're 22.
You've got all this education.
You know better now.
Speaker 1 (18:30):
So you want to change .
You change and take thatexperience to the next job and
be more rounded for it you needto feel right where you are.
Speaker 3 (18:37):
I think If you feel right where you are and you're
passionate, then you'll getahead.
If you're doing something thatyou don't enjoy, I think you're
just wasting your time.
You're just trying to pay thebills when you're doing that.
Speaker 1 (18:47):
And not to put people in boxes but has the makeup of
the ag student changed?
So I'll give you an insight.
I went to the Massey Awardslast year year before and up on
stage they brought all their newgraduates and it was 90%,
easily, were female, and so evenback to when I was there, it's
(19:07):
probably the other way around.
Speaker 2 (19:08):
Yeah Well, it was probably more a 50-50 split, but
you take it back another 10.
Speaker 1 (19:12):
So what does the student look like now?
Are they still walking around?
We're at about 50-50 nowstudent look like now.
Speaker 3 (19:18):
Are they still walking around?
We're at about 50 50 now.
I think we're 54 female oncampus.
Some programs are more female,like agri-food marketing, for
example.
The proportion is higher than54 female.
Maybe like our diploma ofagriculture, it's more than 50
male.
Yeah, um, but the campus isjust over 50 50 in favor of
females.
When I was a student here, itwas probably 20 female.
There's a lady in my office.
(19:39):
She works here as a tutor.
She graduated in 1978 and shewas the only female in her class
.
Yeah, it's a huge shift, yeahyou go and look at some of the
old photos around campus andthere's not many females around,
yeah, which is great to see,yeah, yeah definitely, and it
makes it a lot easier for thesocial life too?
Speaker 2 (19:57):
doesn social life, yeah, yeah, a lot more balance?
Speaker 3 (20:00):
and then they get those, maybe as well.
Yeah, no, the mullet's stillaround wild here.
Speaker 1 (20:06):
Before we get down into too many trends.
International students startingto come back as well.
They're starting to.
Speaker 3 (20:11):
We've grown our domestic students by quite a lot
, you're right, butinternational students are
starting to grow again.
We actually manage COVID prettywell with keeping our pipeline
and keeping our internationalrelationships going.
So as rules change we've sortof been one step ahead of
getting the students back.
But our domestic role has growna lot as well and I think maybe
people appreciated agricultureand food and the good jobs.
Speaker 1 (20:34):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (20:35):
South Island and Canterbury are a nice place to
be.
So there's a lot of thingswe've done, and then there's a
lot of things that our locationand our industry have done for
us.
Speaker 1 (20:42):
Yeah, what are some of the opportunities for some of
these young people goingforward?
Speaker 3 (20:47):
Right, there's a whole lot of opportunities.
And we were saying before thepodcast the mentality has always
been if only I was dad'sgeneration, you know, farms were
cheaper, if only I wasgranddad's generation farms were
cheaper, or all these companiesdidn't exist and I could have
started X business and Ybusiness.
I think those opportunities arealways going to be out there.
They might look slightlydifferent, they might be
(21:11):
recognized in a different way.
I think if you are intelligentand have good work ethic, um,
look for opportunities.
I think there's alwaysopportunities out there.
there's always going to bescrewed wide yeah yeah, you're
lucky, you've got a job already,mate there's always going to be
good professional jobs likeours as well.
You don't have to be anentrepreneur to have a good job
in the industry right we'realways going to want good rural
professionals.
people are going to always wantto deal with people.
(21:32):
I can't see AI replacing all ofthe reps out there in the
industry.
I mean there's 8,000 ruralcontracting businesses, so I
mean they're veryentrepreneurial, hardworking
people.
There's a lot of great jobs inthat industry that people will
be able to do and thenextracting more value for our
products.
That's where the opportunity is.
Can we get more value?
We can try and produce stufffor less, which would be nice,
(21:55):
but we've got to have thatquality food and that safe food.
Can we extract more value fromthe market for our safe food?
It's probably where theopportunities are is getting
that value in.
Speaker 2 (22:08):
Yeah, that's a good insight, isn't it?
Because you can only reducecost to a point.
Speaker 3 (22:10):
To a certain degree, it needs to be safe and quality.
Speaker 2 (22:14):
Yeah, where's the value and the value is kind of
almost potentially is unlimited,whereas reducing the cost is
limited to a certain end point.
Speaker 3 (22:23):
And we need to have an advantage in what we're doing
, because typically, if you'relike adding labor to a product,
do we have an advantage inadding labour to a product to
extract value?
Probably not.
So we probably might need toadd other characteristics to our
products and make sure we'regetting it to the right place
where people are willing to playfor those characteristics.
Speaker 2 (22:41):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, nice Look, I think that's
actually quite a nice place tosort of pull this together,
because we always sort of liketo finish on the, on the
positive, the opportunities.
Speaker 1 (22:51):
Uh, it'd be pretty sour leaving on a bad note.
Speaker 2 (22:55):
Yeah yeah, look, the thing that really jumps out at
me and we probably didn't spenda lot, a lot of time on it, but
love your passion and that inthose softer skills.
I think that's probably one ofthe things that drew matt and I
to wanting to have theconversation with you, because,
uh, you know, it's a, it's aspace where there is a lot of
talk in the industry about theisolation, the distress that can
come up, and so, you know, loveyour work and love to hear that
(23:16):
it's sort of getting built intothe program.
So that's kind of, I guess, akey point from my point of view.
Speaker 1 (23:23):
I mean again just congratulations on the award.
And I think it's on the back ofall that hard work and
preparing these young people forthe future.
I mean to think even back 10years, when I left to have some
of those skills would havehelped me in that first six
months.
Speaker 2 (23:38):
You'd be way better to work with.
There'd be a whole lot morepositives for the whole industry
.
Speaker 1 (23:42):
I think, but instead of here's the keys, away you go.
Speaker 3 (23:45):
That's what it was like for me.
Speaker 1 (23:46):
Yeah, and I think having some of those softer
skills might have helped, yeah,yeah so.
Speaker 3 (23:51):
So kudos to you, mate .
Oh, thanks very much.
Thanks for having me.
Speaker 2 (23:54):
Yeah, no, nice one.
So you know, hopefully ourlisteners have enjoyed the
podcast today.
Dan, it's been great to haveyou on, We've really enjoyed it
and and we look forward to youlistening next time.
Thanks very much, Thanks, Dan.
Thanks, Glenn Cheers.
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