August 8, 2025 • 26 mins
Avian influenza has hit Hickman's Family Farm in Arizona, wiping out 6 million egg-laying hens and forcing hundreds of layoffs. But as Glenn Hickman and veterinarian Dr. Kay Russo reveal, this devastating loss might have been preventable.
The current H5N1 virus has evolved in an unprecedented way, jumping from birds to dairy cattle and even back to poultry operations. This complex transmission pattern has created a perfect storm for egg producers, with 28 million of last year's 39 million layer hen losses directly linked to spillover from dairy infections. The result? Americans paid a staggering $11 billion in higher egg prices while taxpayers spent an additional billion on cleanup efforts.
At the heart of this crisis lies a contentious debate between science and trade policy. Egg producers advocate strongly for vaccination, pointing to France's successful program that reduced outbreaks by 90%. Meanwhile, the broiler chicken industry, which exports $4-6 billion annually, resists vaccination due to potential trade repercussions. This standoff continues despite available vaccines that wouldn't affect egg quality or food safety.
"We need to put the politics aside and come up with solutions that allow us to continue to feed people economically," urges Hickman, whose operation faces a 20-month recovery timeline. With empty egg shelves affecting families and food banks nationwide, the question becomes increasingly urgent: should protecting trade agreements take precedence over ensuring a stable domestic food supply?
As fall migration approaches—traditionally a high-risk period for avian influenza—producers anxiously await guidance from USDA on vaccination protocols. The clock is ticking on a crisis that threatens not just individual farms, but America's food security itself.
This episode is brought to you by United Animal Health. For more information on United Animal Health, visit unitedanh.com and discover how they're advancing animal science worldwide.
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Episode Transcript
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Sarah Muirhead (00:07):
Hickman's Family Farm, based in Buckeye, Arizona
, has been forced to lay offhundreds of workers this year
after avian influenza wiped out95% of its egg-laying hens.
That's approximately 6 millionbirds.
But did it need to happen?
Did that really need to be thesituation?
But did it need to happen?
Did that really need to be thesituation?
(00:30):
Welcome to Feedstuffs in Focus,our podcast taking a look at the
big issues affecting thelivestock, poultry grain and
animal feed industries.
I'm your host, Sarah Muirhead.
This episode is sponsored byUnited Animal Health, a leader
in animal health and nutrition.
You can learn more about UnitedAnimal Health and how they're
working to advance animalscience worldwide by visiting
their website at unitedANH.
com.
(00:51):
Joining us today to talk aboutHPAI at Hickman's Family Farm
and why perhaps it didn't haveto happen, are Glenn Hickman,
President and CEO of Hickman'sFamily Farms, and Dr Kay Russo,
a dairy practitioner andboard-certified poultry
veterinarian with RSM Consulting.
RSM Consulting works withWilson Vet Company and is the
(01:16):
veterinarians for Hickman'sPoultry.
So, Glenn, let's start off withyou.
Give us an overview ofHickman's Family Farms and how
your operation has been impactedby bird flu.
Glenn Hickman (01:29):
Certainly We've been in business.
This is our 81st year inbusiness.
I'm fortunate to be the thirdgeneration to be involved in the
business.
I've got three siblings thatwork with me every day, and
we've got three of the nextgeneration working and managing
different parts of the business,and so it's truly is a family
business.
(01:50):
We've been, you know,concentrated here in Arizona
where we have four farms and,you know, associated pullets
that go with that and we werekind of rocking along.
We had had a touch of bird fluat our farm in Maricopa back in
November and we were able to, orhad to, put down the birds
(02:14):
there.
It was just under a millionbirds and we got that farm
cleaned and sanitized andrestocked and three weeks after
the restocking started we gotbird flu again.
So we did some wildlife surveysaround that farm and found that
we had pressure in the wildlifevermin, that kind of thing that
(02:38):
was outside the farm.
So we intentionally decided towait till the temperature warmed
up and not put any more birdsat risk down in that Maricopa
area.
So we started to receive, youknow, clean swabs from all the
outside and all the animals wecould catch, and so we felt
(03:00):
pretty confident about puttingbirds back down in Maricopa,
which we started the 1st of May.
So we felt pretty confidentabout putting birds back down in
Maricopa, which we started the1st of May.
We got 300,000 birdstransferred down there, got them
situated, started to, you know,move them into their lay cycle.
And then on May 16th, the farmswe had out west, the three
farms there our biggest farm isour Tonopah cage-free facility
(03:22):
with just under 4 millionchickens farm is our Tonopah
cage-free facility with justunder 4 million chickens, and we
started to notice unusualmortality in two of the barns
and on May 16th the swabs cameback positive.
After that we probably didn'tshut down and lock down that
farm soon enough, and so I thinkwe probably mechanically
(03:44):
transferred it to our other twofarms and the Pull soon enough,
and so I think we probablymechanically transferred it to
our other two farms and thePullet farms.
And so, when it was all saidand done, all 6 million chickens
and Pullets out West came downwith bird flu and we started a
multi-week program ofdepopulation.
Sarah Muirhead (04:02):
So, Kay, what do you know so far about how the
HPAI spread between farms and Iknow there's some species spread
as well that you may want toaddress, since you're in both
poultry and dairy- so far.
Dr. Kay Russo (04:16):
The issue that we're currently dealing with in
the outbreak overall started in2022.
And this outbreak involves H5N1, which belongs to the 2344B
clade, and so we had significantlosses in 2022.
2023 was a bit lighter in termsof losses, but in 2024, we had
(04:43):
a situation in which we startedto see a disease spreading in
dairy cattle in the SouthwestUnited States.
That disease ended up beingH5N1, which essentially
basically gained the function tojump into dairy cattle, which
has really convoluted thecurrent issue that we're seeing,
(05:05):
because, although the virusitself has variable excuse me
degrees of clinical signs andsignificance on the cattle side,
it's still very highlypathogenic to poultry.
And so, you know, traditionallypoultry, and so you know,
(05:29):
traditionally stamping out thevirus to stop spread between
flocks has been relativelyeffective.
But now that we're seeing thisvirus move into lots of
different animal species,including dairy cattle, which
tend to share similargeographies with that of poultry
operations, particularly layersand turkeys, it's becoming
increasingly harder to controlit, and although there's been
(05:51):
research that's tried todetermine how it's spread
between facilities and evenbetween animals on the dairy
side, we still don't fullyunderstand how it's moving, and
so it makes it very difficult totalk to producers such as Glenn
and say, hey, if you do all ofthese things, then you're more
(06:11):
likely to keep this virus offyour farm, because at this point
we're still kind of shooting inthe dark trying to figure out
how it's moving.
So that's kind of the situationwe're in today.
It's a very frustratingsituation.
We saw last year alone in 2024,the loss of 39 million million
(06:34):
layer hens here in the UnitedStates.
Approximately 28 million ofthose birds were in association
with spillover from dairyinfections.
This year we are also losingsignificant numbers of birds.
There was an outbreak in theOhio Indiana area at the start
(06:56):
of the year.
California lost quite a fewflocks near the tail end of 2024
and early 2025.
And then, you know, hickman'soperation was most recently hit
and so it does not look likeit's slowing down, which again
is stressful, particularly as welook at moving into the fall
migration.
Sarah Muirhead (07:17):
So are you saying that the avian influenza,
the virus, is going from dairycattle to poultry?
Are you seeing that link?
Dr. Kay Russo (07:27):
Yes, yep, and like I indicated last year, 28
million out of the 39 millionlayer hens that were lost due to
this virus were associated withdairy infections that spilled
back into poultry andunfortunately, in Hickman's case
, the virus in regional dairyfarms found its way into their
(07:51):
farms.
So there was a link there aswell.
Sarah Muirhead (07:55):
So, glenn, it has to be really tough, of
course, letting employees go andjust for your bottom line, when
these things hit, what kind ofsupport is there in terms of,
maybe, indemnity programs orfinancial assistance related to
rebuilding and disposal?
Has that been of any assistanceto you at all?
Glenn Hickman (08:13):
You bet.
So the you know, because wedon't have a choice of.
One chicken gets sick, you haveto depopulate the entire farm.
The government does have anindemnity program set up to
offset some of those costs of.
They actually offset 100% ofthe cost of depopulation,
cleaning and disinfecting andthey partially offset the cost
(08:35):
of repopulating the facility.
Without that it'd be difficultto have an industry, I think,
because you know you've, youknow like we'll be.
It'll take us 20 months to getback to the same number of
chickens that we had prior tothe outbreak.
So that's a long time to gowithout a paycheck, and so the
government indemnities is veryimportant.
Sarah Muirhead (08:58):
Now, this is a pretty controversial issue.
When it comes to avianinfluenza, we talk about
vaccination of the birds.
In your opinion, Glenn I knowyou've been fairly outspoken on
this Do you see that as a way tominimize the risk associated
with?
Glenn Hickman (09:14):
avian influenza.
Well, sarah, there's nocontroversy when it comes to
vaccination of animals to wardoff easily communicable diseases
of those animals.
That's not controversy.
The only controversy we have inthis avian flu outbreak is we
need to vaccinate our egg-layinghens.
(09:36):
And the broiler industry has adifferent opinion because they,
frankly, have been pretty muchuntouched by avian flu.
So I don't, I don't, I don'tknow whether I am in a position
to recommend whether they shouldor should not vaccinate their
chickens.
I just know that we should bevaccinating ours and every egg
(09:58):
laying operation shouldvaccinate their birds.
We don't have an export marketto protect in the egg laying
side, you know.
So I understand that theyprotect in the egg laying side.
So I understand that thebroiler industry does export a
lot of chicken and they have adifferent, maybe a different
requirement in terms of whatthey can and can't do to
maintain access to those exportmarkets.
Sarah Muirhead (10:20):
Yeah, good point .
That's kind of where thecontroversy comes in, and that
trade, export and, like youspelled it out so well, between
the broilers and the laying hens.
So any thoughts, I mean we havethis kind of divide Any
thoughts on how that might bebridged?
Glenn Hickman (10:39):
you know.
I'll let Kay maybe talk aboutwhat the implications are.
I just know that.
You know we have the.
The vaccines that are availableto us are killed vaccines,
which means that we can givethem to our chickens, and if
there was a broiler farm acrossthe street, there'd be no spread
due to the vaccine.
(10:59):
And so that's the frustratingpart about it, because we do
have an excellent tool to stopthe spread, lower the viral load
and potentially work our wayout of this situation.
If we started vaccinatingchickens tomorrow, we'd still
have almost three years ofunvaccinated laying hens out
(11:21):
there, so it's not something weneed to put off at all.
We need to start vaccinatingtoday so that we can, you know,
achieve some level of protectionat some point in the future.
Sarah Muirhead (11:33):
Okay, anything to add to that?
Dr. Kay Russo (11:36):
Certainly so.
As Glenn alluded to, thebarrier to vaccinating laying
hens and potentially turkeys inthis country is trade, and the
broiler industry exports between$4 to $6 billion worth of
product every year.
And in utilizing vaccination inthis country, even if we aren't
(11:59):
vaccinating broilers, it putsthose trade agreements at risk.
And so, ultimately, this is aquestion of policy versus
science, and what will benecessary is to, in order to
mitigate that fallout to thebroiler industry, is to go in
(12:20):
and renegotiate those tradeagreements with some of our key
partners that accept the broilerindustry, is to go in and
renegotiate those tradeagreements with some of our key
partners that accept thosebroiler products, and in such a
way that if we were to startvaccinating laying hens, that
it's not going to impact that.
And so, ultimately, I thinkwe're at the juncture where we
need additional tools, becausethis virus has evolved to start
(12:43):
to infect so many differenthosts that our ability to keep
it out of these complexes isbecoming basically
insurmountable with the currenttools we have.
If it were just circulating,potentially in wild birds, like
it's been traditionally, thenperhaps we could continue down
(13:03):
the road of simply stamping out,but at this point I think we
need additional tools andultimately, in veterinary
medicine, those tools arevaccination.
Sarah Muirhead (13:15):
So what about the cost associated with
vaccinating?
Have you given that an estimateor how do you feel that would
impact your operation, glenn?
Glenn Hickman (13:27):
Well, that's where the common financial sense
get thrown out the window.
You know we have differentdiseases we vaccinate for right
now, and this particular vaccinecan be mixed in with some of
those that we already administer.
So there's literally no extracost in administering the
(13:48):
vaccine.
The extra cost comes in buyingthe vaccine, and if you're going
to vaccinate 300 million babychicks a year, which is on the
high side, then that might costyou $30 million.
And while that sounds like abig number, it's a rounding
number, a rounding error, whencompared to the amount of extra
(14:09):
money that American consumerspaid in higher egg prices.
They paid $11 billion in higheregg prices last year.
The American consumer is alsoknown as the American taxpayer,
and they spent a billion dollarson cleanups, just like ours.
So with a simple annual spendof about $30 million, we can
(14:35):
pretty much control thevolatility of the egg prices and
make sure that this vaccinedoesn't continue or this disease
, rather, doesn't continue to tospread and mutate and possibly
come become something that is agenie we can't put back in the
bottle.
Sarah Muirhead (14:55):
So okay, here's a question that's come in from
our audience.
Would would vaccinating dairycows potentially help with avian
influenza control in poultry,especially when you've got these
dairies and poultry operationslocated nearby each other?
Is that anything that can bedone in that regard?
Dr. Kay Russo (15:14):
Yes.
So, going back to Glenn's point, ultimately controlling this
virus in animal populations isgoing to be a way to reduce risk
to humans because this is azoonotic virus Relating to
vaccinating dairy cattle.
There are two separate vaccinesthat are currently in the
(15:35):
pipeline, waiting for bothconditional approval, or
licensing, as we call it, andthen you know, once that is
accomplished, then the USDA saysokay, you can now use this in
the field.
Because we're seeing the degreeof spillover that we are from
dairy cattle to poultry, itcertainly makes sense to
(15:59):
implement vaccination in orderto reduce that viral load and
with that reduce the risk ofspread off those farms to
neighboring poultry, to wildlifeand, let's remember, this is a
zoonotic virus, so to thoseindividuals that are working
with those animals, working withthose animals.
(16:26):
Now, I did want to bring up, asyou asked about cost, that
certainly part of the cost ofvaccination for highly
pathogenic avian influenza isthe vaccine itself.
But one of the other hurdlesthat we will have to overcome is
that of surveillance, andsurveillance is important
because when we vaccinate birdsthey are much less likely to
show any signs of illness ascompared to unvaccinated, which
(16:50):
we see a lot of mortality as atriggering event for us to test
for this virus, and so it'simperative that not only we have
a solid vaccination plan, but asurveillance plan to find the
virus when it does infectvaccinated flocks, because
that's going to be the key tokeeping trade open and our
broiler friends happy, so thatwe can in fact use this vaccine
(17:15):
here as a tool.
Sarah Muirhead (17:18):
A good point.
What about?
Dr. Kay Russo (17:20):
you know, we always need to address the point
of food security, Any issues,anything we need to be aware of
when it comes to avian influenzaor even the vaccination of
these birds went to the grocerystore in the last 12 months, saw
(17:42):
bare shelves in the egg sectionand, as we look at affordable
protein sources in the world,eggs are perhaps the most
affordable protein for familiesnot just American families all
across the world, and this yearwas unlike any other, seeing
(18:04):
those empty shelves.
Food banks experiencedshortages in eggs that they
often offer to individuals thatfrequent them, families that
can't afford protein, and so weare currently in a situation
where food security is at risk.
Here in the United States Now alot of people.
(18:26):
There's this anti-vaccinationsentiment that seems to be
circulating presently, ananti-RNA vaccine sentiment as
well.
The vaccines that are currentlyconditionally or fully licensed
here in the United States arerecombinant vaccines that we
would utilize at the hatchery,so these aren't RNA vaccines and
(18:50):
then killed vaccines, likeGlenn alluded to, that we would
use in the field, and so thisshould have no effect on the
food quality, the egg quality,anything like that that would
impact the consumer that isconsuming them.
But ultimately, if we are tostabilize and reduce this sort
(19:12):
of yo-yo that we see in eggavailability due to this disease
, I think it is going to beimportant that we employ vaccine
technologies to get in front ofit.
Sarah Muirhead (19:25):
You mentioned, Kay, that there's an effort
underway to put a framework forvaccination in place.
Any idea when that might becomepublic or there might be push
through?
Do you have any timeline onthat?
Dr. Kay Russo (19:41):
Yep.
So the United Egg Producers andthe American Egg Board pulled
together a group of experts onavian flu this included folks
like Dr David Swain, who is aworld expert on avian influenza
and they put together theirrecommendations for vaccine
(20:01):
protocol and surveillance foravian influenza here in the
United States and presented thatto the USDA.
It is my understanding that theUSDA is reviewing that right
now and I think the NationalTurkey Federation, the NTF, also
layered on their input.
Okay, it's my understanding.
It's currently under review.
(20:22):
I think we were meant to hearsomething back in July.
We have not yet heard anythingback and, like Glenn indicated,
before we move into this fall,migration producers and
veterinarians would really likea plan in which we can start to
utilize vaccine in order tobasically increase the immunity
(20:43):
of these phloxes as we placethem and as we move into the
highest risk period.
I'm glad I don't know if youhave anything to add.
Sarah Muirhead (20:50):
Yeah, anything to add to that, Glenn?
Glenn Hickman (20:52):
You know I want to get back to your maybe
comment about food security.
So we did have an egg shortagearound the first year and to
kind of illustrate how this is apolitical problem and not an
animal health challenge, when wehad our most dire shortages,
our USDA lowered ourphytosanitary standards and
(21:16):
brought in eggs from Mexico,which did have the effect of
kind of plugging that gap.
We're still bringing those eggsin today.
Mexico is one of the countriesthat vaccinates for avian
influenza.
Mexico also says that you knowthey have concerns about
importing chicken meat frombroilers that have been
(21:37):
vaccinated for influenza and theeffect of moving all those
hundreds of loads from Mexicointo the US had the effect of
lowering the US egg price andraising the egg price in Mexico.
So when you look at that, wejust all we did was shift the
(21:58):
burden around a little bit, butthere still wasn't enough eggs.
So we need to, we really needto put the politics aside and
come up with solutions thatallow us to continue to feed
people economically.
And so you know, as long aswe're keep shuffling our feet
and trying to try not to offendsomebody and trying to make sure
(22:18):
that you know everybody's needsare taken care of like that
we're going to have.
We're going to have challenges.
So you know, our challengeright now is K alluded to we.
A dairy made our birds sick.
Our birds made another dairysick.
We depopulated, we've cleanedit all up.
We got baby chicks in a weekago, wednesday, and the dairy
(22:39):
that we made sick that's twomiles from us.
You know they.
It takes anywhere between 30and 90 days for the virus to run
its course through a dairy.
So for the next 60 days we'regoing to be holding our breath,
hoping that the virus we gavethe dairy doesn't come back to
reinfect our baby chicks.
So it's a mess, but it's asolvable mess if we would just
(23:03):
put you know.
Health issues first.
Sarah Muirhead (23:06):
Okay, any final thoughts to leave our audience
with here today.
Dr. Kay Russo (23:12):
I would encourage folks to take a look at what
France has done.
They're a very nice example ofhow utilizing effective vaccines
against H5 can significantlyreduce outbreaks.
They started vaccinating theirbirds in October of 2023, and
(23:34):
they did take some hits on theirexport market, but they
basically went through anexercise and decided it is more
important to them to reducethese outbreaks than to maintain
those exports, and over thelast couple of years they've
(23:55):
been able to reduce thepercentage of farms that became
infected with H5 by over 90%.
So a really nice example ofutilizing technology, and this
is not an insurmountable issue,but we will continue to
experience losses if we aren'tgiven additional tools, given
(24:19):
how complex this viral ecologyhas become.
Sarah Muirhead (24:24):
Glenn, any final comments to leave our audience
with from you?
Glenn Hickman (24:28):
Well, I just want to say I think all poultry
producers have stepped up theirbiosecurity game to almost
ridiculous standards.
You know, everybody that goesinto a barn gets showered in.
Everybody that penetrates afence line gets their vehicle
washed at least a couple times.
Rates of fence line gets theirvehicle washed at least a couple
times.
We're doing what we can, butthis virus, when it's in the
(24:52):
environment and from you knowkind of the spread to other
species means that it's going tocome in airborne and that's not
something we can guard against.
So we need to say this virusisn't going to come and go with
our seasonal waterfowlmigrations.
We've just got to figure outit's going to be ever present,
it's always going to be on ourfence line and we need to figure
(25:13):
out a way to combat that andvaccination is that way.
Sarah Muirhead (25:17):
Very good.
Glenn Kay, thank you so muchfor joining us here today and
sharing your insight.
I think it's been a fascinatingdiscussion.
Appreciate it.
Glenn Hickman (25:26):
Thank you for the opportunity.
Sarah Muirhead (25:28):
This episode has been sponsored by United Animal
Health, a leader in animalhealth and nutrition.
You can learn more about UnitedAnimal Health and how they're
working to advance animalscience worldwide by visiting
their website at unitedanhcom.
I'm Sarah Muirhead and you'vebeen listening to Feedstuffs In
Focus.
If you would like to hear moreconversations about some of the
(25:51):
big issues affecting thelivestock, poultry, grain and
animal feed industries,subscribe to this podcast on
your favorite podcast channel.
Until next time, have a greatday and thank you for listening.
Hickman's Family Farm, based in Buckeye, Arizona
, has been forced to lay offhundreds of workers this year
after avian influenza wiped out95% of its egg-laying hens.
That's approximately 6 millionbirds.
But did it need to happen?
Did that really need to be thesituation?
But did it need to happen?
Did that really need to be thesituation?
(00:30):
Welcome to Feedstuffs in Focus,our podcast taking a look at the
big issues affecting thelivestock, poultry grain and
animal feed industries.
I'm your host, Sarah Muirhead.
This episode is sponsored byUnited Animal Health, a leader
in animal health and nutrition.
You can learn more about UnitedAnimal Health and how they're
working to advance animalscience worldwide by visiting
their website at unitedANH.
com.
(00:51):
Joining us today to talk aboutHPAI at Hickman's Family Farm
and why perhaps it didn't haveto happen, are Glenn Hickman,
President and CEO of Hickman'sFamily Farms, and Dr Kay Russo,
a dairy practitioner andboard-certified poultry
veterinarian with RSM Consulting.
RSM Consulting works withWilson Vet Company and is the
(01:16):
veterinarians for Hickman'sPoultry.
So, Glenn, let's start off withyou.
Give us an overview ofHickman's Family Farms and how
your operation has been impactedby bird flu.
Glenn Hickman (01:29):
Certainly We've been in business.
This is our 81st year inbusiness.
I'm fortunate to be the thirdgeneration to be involved in the
business.
I've got three siblings thatwork with me every day, and
we've got three of the nextgeneration working and managing
different parts of the business,and so it's truly is a family
business.
(01:50):
We've been, you know,concentrated here in Arizona
where we have four farms and,you know, associated pullets
that go with that and we werekind of rocking along.
We had had a touch of bird fluat our farm in Maricopa back in
November and we were able to, orhad to, put down the birds
(02:14):
there.
It was just under a millionbirds and we got that farm
cleaned and sanitized andrestocked and three weeks after
the restocking started we gotbird flu again.
So we did some wildlife surveysaround that farm and found that
we had pressure in the wildlifevermin, that kind of thing that
(02:38):
was outside the farm.
So we intentionally decided towait till the temperature warmed
up and not put any more birdsat risk down in that Maricopa
area.
So we started to receive, youknow, clean swabs from all the
outside and all the animals wecould catch, and so we felt
(03:00):
pretty confident about puttingbirds back down in Maricopa,
which we started the 1st of May.
So we felt pretty confidentabout putting birds back down in
Maricopa, which we started the1st of May.
We got 300,000 birdstransferred down there, got them
situated, started to, you know,move them into their lay cycle.
And then on May 16th, the farmswe had out west, the three
farms there our biggest farm isour Tonopah cage-free facility
(03:22):
with just under 4 millionchickens farm is our Tonopah
cage-free facility with justunder 4 million chickens, and we
started to notice unusualmortality in two of the barns
and on May 16th the swabs cameback positive.
After that we probably didn'tshut down and lock down that
farm soon enough, and so I thinkwe probably mechanically
(03:44):
transferred it to our other twofarms and the Pull soon enough,
and so I think we probablymechanically transferred it to
our other two farms and thePullet farms.
And so, when it was all saidand done, all 6 million chickens
and Pullets out West came downwith bird flu and we started a
multi-week program ofdepopulation.
Sarah Muirhead (04:02):
So, Kay, what do you know so far about how the
HPAI spread between farms and Iknow there's some species spread
as well that you may want toaddress, since you're in both
poultry and dairy- so far.
Dr. Kay Russo (04:16):
The issue that we're currently dealing with in
the outbreak overall started in2022.
And this outbreak involves H5N1, which belongs to the 2344B
clade, and so we had significantlosses in 2022.
2023 was a bit lighter in termsof losses, but in 2024, we had
(04:43):
a situation in which we startedto see a disease spreading in
dairy cattle in the SouthwestUnited States.
That disease ended up beingH5N1, which essentially
basically gained the function tojump into dairy cattle, which
has really convoluted thecurrent issue that we're seeing,
(05:05):
because, although the virusitself has variable excuse me
degrees of clinical signs andsignificance on the cattle side,
it's still very highlypathogenic to poultry.
And so, you know, traditionallypoultry, and so you know,
(05:29):
traditionally stamping out thevirus to stop spread between
flocks has been relativelyeffective.
But now that we're seeing thisvirus move into lots of
different animal species,including dairy cattle, which
tend to share similargeographies with that of poultry
operations, particularly layersand turkeys, it's becoming
increasingly harder to controlit, and although there's been
(05:51):
research that's tried todetermine how it's spread
between facilities and evenbetween animals on the dairy
side, we still don't fullyunderstand how it's moving, and
so it makes it very difficult totalk to producers such as Glenn
and say, hey, if you do all ofthese things, then you're more
(06:11):
likely to keep this virus offyour farm, because at this point
we're still kind of shooting inthe dark trying to figure out
how it's moving.
So that's kind of the situationwe're in today.
It's a very frustratingsituation.
We saw last year alone in 2024,the loss of 39 million million
(06:34):
layer hens here in the UnitedStates.
Approximately 28 million ofthose birds were in association
with spillover from dairyinfections.
This year we are also losingsignificant numbers of birds.
There was an outbreak in theOhio Indiana area at the start
(06:56):
of the year.
California lost quite a fewflocks near the tail end of 2024
and early 2025.
And then, you know, hickman'soperation was most recently hit
and so it does not look likeit's slowing down, which again
is stressful, particularly as welook at moving into the fall
migration.
Sarah Muirhead (07:17):
So are you saying that the avian influenza,
the virus, is going from dairycattle to poultry?
Are you seeing that link?
Dr. Kay Russo (07:27):
Yes, yep, and like I indicated last year, 28
million out of the 39 millionlayer hens that were lost due to
this virus were associated withdairy infections that spilled
back into poultry andunfortunately, in Hickman's case
, the virus in regional dairyfarms found its way into their
(07:51):
farms.
So there was a link there aswell.
Sarah Muirhead (07:55):
So, glenn, it has to be really tough, of
course, letting employees go andjust for your bottom line, when
these things hit, what kind ofsupport is there in terms of,
maybe, indemnity programs orfinancial assistance related to
rebuilding and disposal?
Has that been of any assistanceto you at all?
Glenn Hickman (08:13):
You bet.
So the you know, because wedon't have a choice of.
One chicken gets sick, you haveto depopulate the entire farm.
The government does have anindemnity program set up to
offset some of those costs of.
They actually offset 100% ofthe cost of depopulation,
cleaning and disinfecting andthey partially offset the cost
(08:35):
of repopulating the facility.
Without that it'd be difficultto have an industry, I think,
because you know you've, youknow like we'll be.
It'll take us 20 months to getback to the same number of
chickens that we had prior tothe outbreak.
So that's a long time to gowithout a paycheck, and so the
government indemnities is veryimportant.
Sarah Muirhead (08:58):
Now, this is a pretty controversial issue.
When it comes to avianinfluenza, we talk about
vaccination of the birds.
In your opinion, Glenn I knowyou've been fairly outspoken on
this Do you see that as a way tominimize the risk associated
with?
Glenn Hickman (09:14):
avian influenza.
Well, sarah, there's nocontroversy when it comes to
vaccination of animals to wardoff easily communicable diseases
of those animals.
That's not controversy.
The only controversy we have inthis avian flu outbreak is we
need to vaccinate our egg-layinghens.
(09:36):
And the broiler industry has adifferent opinion because they,
frankly, have been pretty muchuntouched by avian flu.
So I don't, I don't, I don'tknow whether I am in a position
to recommend whether they shouldor should not vaccinate their
chickens.
I just know that we should bevaccinating ours and every egg
(09:58):
laying operation shouldvaccinate their birds.
We don't have an export marketto protect in the egg laying
side, you know.
So I understand that theyprotect in the egg laying side.
So I understand that thebroiler industry does export a
lot of chicken and they have adifferent, maybe a different
requirement in terms of whatthey can and can't do to
maintain access to those exportmarkets.
Sarah Muirhead (10:20):
Yeah, good point .
That's kind of where thecontroversy comes in, and that
trade, export and, like youspelled it out so well, between
the broilers and the laying hens.
So any thoughts, I mean we havethis kind of divide Any
thoughts on how that might bebridged?
Glenn Hickman (10:39):
you know.
I'll let Kay maybe talk aboutwhat the implications are.
I just know that.
You know we have the.
The vaccines that are availableto us are killed vaccines,
which means that we can givethem to our chickens, and if
there was a broiler farm acrossthe street, there'd be no spread
due to the vaccine.
(10:59):
And so that's the frustratingpart about it, because we do
have an excellent tool to stopthe spread, lower the viral load
and potentially work our wayout of this situation.
If we started vaccinatingchickens tomorrow, we'd still
have almost three years ofunvaccinated laying hens out
(11:21):
there, so it's not something weneed to put off at all.
We need to start vaccinatingtoday so that we can, you know,
achieve some level of protectionat some point in the future.
Sarah Muirhead (11:33):
Okay, anything to add to that?
Dr. Kay Russo (11:36):
Certainly so.
As Glenn alluded to, thebarrier to vaccinating laying
hens and potentially turkeys inthis country is trade, and the
broiler industry exports between$4 to $6 billion worth of
product every year.
And in utilizing vaccination inthis country, even if we aren't
(11:59):
vaccinating broilers, it putsthose trade agreements at risk.
And so, ultimately, this is aquestion of policy versus
science, and what will benecessary is to, in order to
mitigate that fallout to thebroiler industry, is to go in
(12:20):
and renegotiate those tradeagreements with some of our key
partners that accept the broilerindustry, is to go in and
renegotiate those tradeagreements with some of our key
partners that accept thosebroiler products, and in such a
way that if we were to startvaccinating laying hens, that
it's not going to impact that.
And so, ultimately, I thinkwe're at the juncture where we
need additional tools, becausethis virus has evolved to start
(12:43):
to infect so many differenthosts that our ability to keep
it out of these complexes isbecoming basically
insurmountable with the currenttools we have.
If it were just circulating,potentially in wild birds, like
it's been traditionally, thenperhaps we could continue down
(13:03):
the road of simply stamping out,but at this point I think we
need additional tools andultimately, in veterinary
medicine, those tools arevaccination.
Sarah Muirhead (13:15):
So what about the cost associated with
vaccinating?
Have you given that an estimateor how do you feel that would
impact your operation, glenn?
Glenn Hickman (13:27):
Well, that's where the common financial sense
get thrown out the window.
You know we have differentdiseases we vaccinate for right
now, and this particular vaccinecan be mixed in with some of
those that we already administer.
So there's literally no extracost in administering the
(13:48):
vaccine.
The extra cost comes in buyingthe vaccine, and if you're going
to vaccinate 300 million babychicks a year, which is on the
high side, then that might costyou $30 million.
And while that sounds like abig number, it's a rounding
number, a rounding error, whencompared to the amount of extra
(14:09):
money that American consumerspaid in higher egg prices.
They paid $11 billion in higheregg prices last year.
The American consumer is alsoknown as the American taxpayer,
and they spent a billion dollarson cleanups, just like ours.
So with a simple annual spendof about $30 million, we can
(14:35):
pretty much control thevolatility of the egg prices and
make sure that this vaccinedoesn't continue or this disease
, rather, doesn't continue to tospread and mutate and possibly
come become something that is agenie we can't put back in the
bottle.
Sarah Muirhead (14:55):
So okay, here's a question that's come in from
our audience.
Would would vaccinating dairycows potentially help with avian
influenza control in poultry,especially when you've got these
dairies and poultry operationslocated nearby each other?
Is that anything that can bedone in that regard?
Dr. Kay Russo (15:14):
Yes.
So, going back to Glenn's point, ultimately controlling this
virus in animal populations isgoing to be a way to reduce risk
to humans because this is azoonotic virus Relating to
vaccinating dairy cattle.
There are two separate vaccinesthat are currently in the
(15:35):
pipeline, waiting for bothconditional approval, or
licensing, as we call it, andthen you know, once that is
accomplished, then the USDA saysokay, you can now use this in
the field.
Because we're seeing the degreeof spillover that we are from
dairy cattle to poultry, itcertainly makes sense to
(15:59):
implement vaccination in orderto reduce that viral load and
with that reduce the risk ofspread off those farms to
neighboring poultry, to wildlifeand, let's remember, this is a
zoonotic virus, so to thoseindividuals that are working
with those animals, working withthose animals.
(16:26):
Now, I did want to bring up, asyou asked about cost, that
certainly part of the cost ofvaccination for highly
pathogenic avian influenza isthe vaccine itself.
But one of the other hurdlesthat we will have to overcome is
that of surveillance, andsurveillance is important
because when we vaccinate birdsthey are much less likely to
show any signs of illness ascompared to unvaccinated, which
(16:50):
we see a lot of mortality as atriggering event for us to test
for this virus, and so it'simperative that not only we have
a solid vaccination plan, but asurveillance plan to find the
virus when it does infectvaccinated flocks, because
that's going to be the key tokeeping trade open and our
broiler friends happy, so thatwe can in fact use this vaccine
(17:15):
here as a tool.
Sarah Muirhead (17:18):
A good point.
What about?
Dr. Kay Russo (17:20):
you know, we always need to address the point
of food security, Any issues,anything we need to be aware of
when it comes to avian influenzaor even the vaccination of
these birds went to the grocerystore in the last 12 months, saw
(17:42):
bare shelves in the egg sectionand, as we look at affordable
protein sources in the world,eggs are perhaps the most
affordable protein for familiesnot just American families all
across the world, and this yearwas unlike any other, seeing
(18:04):
those empty shelves.
Food banks experiencedshortages in eggs that they
often offer to individuals thatfrequent them, families that
can't afford protein, and so weare currently in a situation
where food security is at risk.
Here in the United States Now alot of people.
(18:26):
There's this anti-vaccinationsentiment that seems to be
circulating presently, ananti-RNA vaccine sentiment as
well.
The vaccines that are currentlyconditionally or fully licensed
here in the United States arerecombinant vaccines that we
would utilize at the hatchery,so these aren't RNA vaccines and
(18:50):
then killed vaccines, likeGlenn alluded to, that we would
use in the field, and so thisshould have no effect on the
food quality, the egg quality,anything like that that would
impact the consumer that isconsuming them.
But ultimately, if we are tostabilize and reduce this sort
(19:12):
of yo-yo that we see in eggavailability due to this disease
, I think it is going to beimportant that we employ vaccine
technologies to get in front ofit.
Sarah Muirhead (19:25):
You mentioned, Kay, that there's an effort
underway to put a framework forvaccination in place.
Any idea when that might becomepublic or there might be push
through?
Do you have any timeline onthat?
Dr. Kay Russo (19:41):
Yep.
So the United Egg Producers andthe American Egg Board pulled
together a group of experts onavian flu this included folks
like Dr David Swain, who is aworld expert on avian influenza
and they put together theirrecommendations for vaccine
(20:01):
protocol and surveillance foravian influenza here in the
United States and presented thatto the USDA.
It is my understanding that theUSDA is reviewing that right
now and I think the NationalTurkey Federation, the NTF, also
layered on their input.
Okay, it's my understanding.
It's currently under review.
(20:22):
I think we were meant to hearsomething back in July.
We have not yet heard anythingback and, like Glenn indicated,
before we move into this fall,migration producers and
veterinarians would really likea plan in which we can start to
utilize vaccine in order tobasically increase the immunity
(20:43):
of these phloxes as we placethem and as we move into the
highest risk period.
I'm glad I don't know if youhave anything to add.
Sarah Muirhead (20:50):
Yeah, anything to add to that, Glenn?
Glenn Hickman (20:52):
You know I want to get back to your maybe
comment about food security.
So we did have an egg shortagearound the first year and to
kind of illustrate how this is apolitical problem and not an
animal health challenge, when wehad our most dire shortages,
our USDA lowered ourphytosanitary standards and
(21:16):
brought in eggs from Mexico,which did have the effect of
kind of plugging that gap.
We're still bringing those eggsin today.
Mexico is one of the countriesthat vaccinates for avian
influenza.
Mexico also says that you knowthey have concerns about
importing chicken meat frombroilers that have been
(21:37):
vaccinated for influenza and theeffect of moving all those
hundreds of loads from Mexicointo the US had the effect of
lowering the US egg price andraising the egg price in Mexico.
So when you look at that, wejust all we did was shift the
(21:58):
burden around a little bit, butthere still wasn't enough eggs.
So we need to, we really needto put the politics aside and
come up with solutions thatallow us to continue to feed
people economically.
And so you know, as long aswe're keep shuffling our feet
and trying to try not to offendsomebody and trying to make sure
(22:18):
that you know everybody's needsare taken care of like that
we're going to have.
We're going to have challenges.
So you know, our challengeright now is K alluded to we.
A dairy made our birds sick.
Our birds made another dairysick.
We depopulated, we've cleanedit all up.
We got baby chicks in a weekago, wednesday, and the dairy
(22:39):
that we made sick that's twomiles from us.
You know they.
It takes anywhere between 30and 90 days for the virus to run
its course through a dairy.
So for the next 60 days we'regoing to be holding our breath,
hoping that the virus we gavethe dairy doesn't come back to
reinfect our baby chicks.
So it's a mess, but it's asolvable mess if we would just
(23:03):
put you know.
Health issues first.
Sarah Muirhead (23:06):
Okay, any final thoughts to leave our audience
with here today.
Dr. Kay Russo (23:12):
I would encourage folks to take a look at what
France has done.
They're a very nice example ofhow utilizing effective vaccines
against H5 can significantlyreduce outbreaks.
They started vaccinating theirbirds in October of 2023, and
(23:34):
they did take some hits on theirexport market, but they
basically went through anexercise and decided it is more
important to them to reducethese outbreaks than to maintain
those exports, and over thelast couple of years they've
(23:55):
been able to reduce thepercentage of farms that became
infected with H5 by over 90%.
So a really nice example ofutilizing technology, and this
is not an insurmountable issue,but we will continue to
experience losses if we aren'tgiven additional tools, given
(24:19):
how complex this viral ecologyhas become.
Sarah Muirhead (24:24):
Glenn, any final comments to leave our audience
with from you?
Glenn Hickman (24:28):
Well, I just want to say I think all poultry
producers have stepped up theirbiosecurity game to almost
ridiculous standards.
You know, everybody that goesinto a barn gets showered in.
Everybody that penetrates afence line gets their vehicle
washed at least a couple times.
Rates of fence line gets theirvehicle washed at least a couple
times.
We're doing what we can, butthis virus, when it's in the
(24:52):
environment and from you knowkind of the spread to other
species means that it's going tocome in airborne and that's not
something we can guard against.
So we need to say this virusisn't going to come and go with
our seasonal waterfowlmigrations.
We've just got to figure outit's going to be ever present,
it's always going to be on ourfence line and we need to figure
(25:13):
out a way to combat that andvaccination is that way.
Sarah Muirhead (25:17):
Very good.
Glenn Kay, thank you so muchfor joining us here today and
sharing your insight.
I think it's been a fascinatingdiscussion.
Appreciate it.
Glenn Hickman (25:26):
Thank you for the opportunity.
Sarah Muirhead (25:28):
This episode has been sponsored by United Animal
Health, a leader in animalhealth and nutrition.
You can learn more about UnitedAnimal Health and how they're
working to advance animalscience worldwide by visiting
their website at unitedanhcom.
I'm Sarah Muirhead and you'vebeen listening to Feedstuffs In
Focus.
If you would like to hear moreconversations about some of the
(25:51):
big issues affecting thelivestock, poultry, grain and
animal feed industries,subscribe to this podcast on
your favorite podcast channel.
Until next time, have a greatday and thank you for listening.
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