KWAJ: Insights on Creativity and Chasing Dreams

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
Yo yo, we're back with another episode of the Feel
Free podcast.
I'm your host, John Sarone.
This week, I got my buddy Mikehere also known as Quage rapper,
from Lansing in Michigan, hereto interview me, ask me some
questions about additionrecovery.
We both talk about our storiesafter leaving Grand Rapids or

(00:29):
Grand Valley State in 2016 and2017, where we met up to chill
and talk about our dreams withmusic and stuff like that, so
the conversation is pretty muchus just catching up while just
talking about life in general.
It's a pretty laid backconversation.
You don't want to miss it,though.
It's always a good one, andnext week I got my buddy Brandon

(00:50):
back on the podcast.
You'll actually be herevisiting, so we'll be doing the
podcast in person.
You don't want to miss that.
It's going to be another goodepisode.
So, without further ado, let'sget into the episode.

Speaker 2 (01:08):
I mean, we could just start with that man.
So did you move to Chicagoright after school?

Speaker 1 (01:13):
Bruh, I didn't even graduate from Grand Valley.

Speaker 2 (01:16):
Oh, I didn't even know that, Bruh.

Speaker 1 (01:18):
Yeah, dude.
So wait, when we were chillingit was 2016.
Yeah, it was 2016 at thebusiness college.
I moved out to the East Side ofGR after we were done with that
school year and I was livingwith a buddy and shit, yeah, I

(01:45):
didn't finish, so that next yearI actually started drinking a
lot and just went full-blownalcoholic and, yeah, I failed
out in 2017 in that fallsemester of 2017, and then I
moved back to Chicago.
I mean you could all say itworked out right.
Yeah, it did.
I needed a support group backhome, which is odd because my

(02:10):
support group back here everyonestill uses or my homie, as you
drink, it's all good.
All my homies still drink andsmoke, my family members too.
But everyone believed in me tobe better.
Everyone believed in me to getsober.
Nobody ever forced anything onme or told me I needed a drink

(02:31):
or smoke or anything.
When I said I wanted to getsober, everyone was super
supportive of it.

Speaker 2 (02:37):
I didn't even Imagine how stupid a friend you'd have
to be to be like nah man.
I'm not cool with that.

Speaker 1 (02:41):
That's what I'm saying I just don't associate
with people like that.
I don't think I had anybodythat I had to really cut out
like that, though I was justvery blessed to have a lot of
good people in my life.
I didn't even get sober until2019.
So between 2017 and 2019, I wasjust drinking a lot, blowing a
lot of cocaine in and out ofcommunity college and shit.

(03:05):
I wasn't doing shit.
Man, I couldn't figure it outyou weren't working.
Yeah, I was working, you weren'tworking.
Yeah, I was working, butworking and blowing the money.
So it's like whatever.

Speaker 2 (03:18):
Yeah, so basically, you're not working if you're
blowing the money.
That's what I'm saying.

Speaker 1 (03:21):
Yeah, I mean, in the whole time too, I was still
telling myself I'm going to be arapper, I'm going to put out
this music.
I never got around to it untilI got sober.
I didn't publish any of thosesongs.
I didn't work on the musicuntil I finally got sober,
because I told myself I don'tdeserve my creativity if I can't

(03:46):
love myself.

Speaker 2 (03:50):
That's valid but hey, yo, during this time did you
have your girlfriend?
Because that's the same thing.
You can't have a girl unlessyou love yourself too, right?
No, I didn't.

Speaker 1 (03:58):
I was between, like I didn't start dating Lisa until
2020.
So it was like October of COVIDyear Before that.
If I was getting fucked up, Iwasn't really dating anybody.

Speaker 2 (04:13):
I wouldn't work out.

Speaker 1 (04:15):
Man, I was super destructive, I'll tell you that
much.

Speaker 2 (04:19):
When did you write the book, man?
That was 2019, 2020?
.

Speaker 1 (04:23):
I actually.
It's 2023.
So I published the book lastyear, right?
All of those writings are acompilation of everything I went
through from 2016 to 2022.
So there's writings over thecourse of those six years that I

(04:44):
had put together.
There's writings from when Iwas still using, there's
writings from when I wasdeciding to get sober, when I
got sober, and then years intomy sobriety.
So it's pretty spaced out.
Honestly, I didn't put ittogether until 2022, though you
know.

Speaker 2 (05:03):
Yeah, but that sounds good, man, you didn't get to
put together with the best mindpossible.

Speaker 1 (05:10):
Right yeah, I was going to ask when did you
graduate at GV?

Speaker 2 (05:17):
The year before you got yourself, failed out, or
whatever 2016,.

Speaker 1 (05:21):
Right yeah, 2016.

Speaker 2 (05:23):
That's what I thought .

Speaker 1 (05:25):
Yeah, I was like.
I was like, damn, I didn't seehim in 2017.
But then again, I was fucked up.
I don't really remember a lotof that year.
I'll tell you that.

Speaker 2 (05:35):
You know, what's crazy is that when we were
chilling, you hadn't I mean, I'msure you were doing shit that I
didn't know about, but you werepretty put together and chasing
a dream like pretty well, right.

Speaker 1 (05:44):
Yeah, I was on the Dean's list too, in 2016.

Speaker 2 (05:47):
Yeah, I mean, you're a smart dude.
I'm not really that surprised.
Yeah, I appreciate it.

Speaker 1 (05:52):
I was holding it together.
I'll tell you that much.
But you know, yeah, it's likeI'm like a snowball man.
Once I get going on something,it's all over.
If I get going on good habits,I'll snowball and do a good
individual If I yeah, Iappreciate that.
Once I get a couple bad habitsin me, though, yeah, it's out of

(06:16):
control.
I'll tell you that much.

Speaker 2 (06:19):
That's not good.
So you couldn't even have asipper beer at this point Right
now.
Oh no, I'm done no Like.
If you had a sip, you'd have a.
It'd be a good night.

Speaker 1 (06:34):
And I've talked about this with, like, my mentor
before, because I had atherapist for the first three
years that I was getting sober.
That kind of helped me getsober right and we would talk
about this instance.
And he goes, you know what?
Let's play out the next sixmonths.
Maybe you do smoke some weed,right, or maybe you do have a
couple of beers that one nightand you're really good about it,

(06:55):
and you're like, oh, I'm justgoing to make this a monthly
occurrence, right.
And I'm like, yeah, I could dothat.
Or every other weekend in sixto 12 months it's going to be an
everyday thing.
I'll tell you, dude, I'll bedrinking a fifth a day.
I'll be smoking an eighth ofweed, I'll be getting cocaine
Like there is no, there's nomoderation for me, unfortunately
.

Speaker 2 (07:14):
So you know I'm a fan of all of those substances, but
some people have the propensityto go, you know, all out
overboard.
I should say yeah overboard.
Overboard.
I mean it's bad.
I always say this to people, asbad as it sounds.
I wish that we were able tohave fun during that era of your

(07:36):
life, because those are somegood bonds that could be made
during that time, although itwas bad.

Speaker 1 (07:42):
Yeah, I mean, I still have like those bonds of like
all my you know, all the homiesthat I partied with.
You know, um, I don't, you know, for a long time, even at the
start of my sobriety, and insome addicts I know, look back
and regret those decisions andlike, don't get me wrong, like

(08:02):
addiction has a really nastyside and it ruins relationships,
families and all that.
It's got a bunch of negativethings.
But you know it would be.
People wouldn't do that stuffif it wasn't fun and if it
wasn't beautiful.
If it wasn't beautiful in asense you know like.
I had a like so many good timeson all that shit.
You know, I'm not going toregret.

(08:23):
I'm not going to regret who Iam at this point.
I just learned how to be myselfwithout it, you know.

Speaker 2 (08:28):
So, so, you think you're a better person without
it just because you're moreproductive?

Speaker 1 (08:33):
Me individually.
Uh, yeah, it's.
It's not even like theproductivity, it's like the lens
.
I look through life now and andI'll I'll relate this to my bad
habit that I've had in the lastyear.
So, when I was putting the bookout and publishing the book, I
wanted to celebrate a little bitand I'm like I'm going to start
smoking cigars again, right?

(08:53):
So, uh, the last year I've beenon and off with the tobacco and
stuff, dude, immediately, like,my thought process changes.
I just want to eat shitty food,I want to play video games.
Everything I'm writing about isis depressing, you know.
Um, I'm pleasure based at thispoint.

(09:16):
So I've noticed that in mysobriety, complete sobriety, I
work out, I eat, right, like Ihave a more positive outlook on
life, like I'm more productive,like it's it's night and day,
man, like the scale is totallyoutweighed in in my sobriety
right now, I would never changeanything, you know.

Speaker 2 (09:35):
Before I ask you I have a question about addiction.
But before I ask you that, Iwant to ask you when you think
about there's this like internettopic, is smoking weed, like,
actually a good thing foreverybody?
I'm on the side where like likeundoubtedly it makes you lazy
and hungry, but that doesn'tmean you still can't do.

(09:56):
Get on your fucking shit andget the job done.

Speaker 1 (09:59):
I know, but it's like I know a lot of very, I know a
lot of very productive peoplewho still smoke.
Um, but would they not?
Be more productive without it,um it, it just depends man.
Like you said, it makes youokay with being lazy and it
makes you you know you get themunchies.
It makes you hungry.

Speaker 2 (10:21):
Um after I have seen.

Speaker 1 (10:23):
You know like weed opened up my life to a lot of
different ways of creativitythat I had never imagined.
You know, and um, out ofeverything, out of all the
substances I've done, it wasactually the easiest for me to
get rid of, to be honest.
Um, yeah, because it it made meso lazy.
I'm like damn, I don't want towork out and I'm okay with

(10:45):
eating burritos and donuts allday when I'm smoking weed.
You know like that was it wasreally easy for me to give that
one up.
Um I, you know it's tough tosay, man, I don't.
I don't want to hate on weedcause it's got a lot of positive
things, like I'm not hating onyou either.
I used to smoke a lot of weedtoo Right, you know, I look at

(11:07):
everything through my new lens,but I always look at everything
through.
I'm a.
I'm an extremist right, like ifI like something, it's zero to
a hundred.
I'm doing it all the time, Idon't care about the
consequences, like I could loseall my money and all respect for
myself.
I'm going to get that pleasure.
You know that's what addictionis.
Um, there are people that canmoderate things.

(11:28):
I know people that can smokeweed and be creative and still
work out and all that, all thatother good all that good shit,
you know.
It's just different foreverybody, you know.

Speaker 2 (11:38):
I agree it's not a one size fits all.
No, it's not Um, but so I wasgoing to ask you, at what point
does it become addiction?
Like I've got a couple offriends who do a lot of Adderall
and then they claim they throwthat word around, and I don't
like that word being thrownaround.

Speaker 1 (11:55):
Are you talking about ?

Speaker 2 (11:55):
addiction.
No-transcript.
Yeah because I mean like I'mnot an addict, but I would
consider the definition ofaddiction being a complete
derailment of like what youthink of what a normal,
functioning, ambitious personshould be.
So when I see people lifetogether saying that they're

(12:16):
addicted, I'm like all right.

Speaker 1 (12:18):
I would say addiction .
Well, here's the thing I'maddicted to coffee, right?
You know, I can't go a daywithout coffee anymore, like
it's one of my only things thatI ingest, that I still have in
my life, you know, and I'm nevergoing to get rid of that.
I love coffee.
It's an addiction.

Speaker 2 (12:38):
There's no negative side effects to being addicted
to coffee.

Speaker 1 (12:40):
No, unless you're drinking too much cream and
sugar in it, you know, but Idrink it black, so I'm not too
worried about that.

Speaker 2 (12:48):
And even then, most of your sugar would come from
like a bad diet.
That too Right.

Speaker 1 (12:54):
So and here's the other thing I was addicted to
Adderall.
I was taken.
At most, I was taken like 120milligrams a day for for months.
I went into college in 2011 at180 pounds.
I was a baseball player in highschool.

(13:15):
I was just, like you know, yournormal jock dude, whatever.
And when I was admitted intooutpatient in 2013, so a year
and a half later, I was 130pounds, so I lost 50 pounds, you
know.
So when people say they'readdicted to it, it's like okay,
if you're taking like 10 to 20milligrams a day, like doctors

(13:38):
prescribe that to people.
You know, if you're hawking allof your shit to get money to
take 60 to 80 milligramsAdderall a day, you're lying to
your loved ones about where yourmoney's going, or you're lying
to your loved ones about whereyou're at while you're doing
things Like there are a lot ofsigns for an addict that you can

(13:59):
put together.
Obviously, like you said, it'sa complete derailment of life,
you know, for a normal ambitioushuman being.
So, so I do kind of.
I agree with that.

Speaker 2 (14:11):
Okay, well, I feel you it's, do you feel?
I feel like now you're justpretty open minded, like
everybody's struggle is yourstruggle.
You don't want to comparestruggles, but I myself find it
okay to make everything relative.
So like if someone is talkingto John Sorone trying to compare
addictions and then they saysomething that's not even close

(14:33):
to what the typical addict goesthrough, it's kind of like an
insult to what what you guys gothrough.
But you know what I mean.
You think you ever think of itlike I after I don't.

Speaker 1 (14:47):
I don't view it Like that because I I understand,
like you know, during my heavyaddictions and stuff, like
people in my family would kindof take shots, but I always kind
of knew sometimes it came froma place of love.
And one problem with America ingeneral, like you said, like
maybe you have a poor diet, likethe addiction to sugar here in

(15:11):
America and an unhealthy diet isout of this fucking world, you
know.
So it's great.
It is crazy, like physicalwellness is a huge problem.
So I I see people who have aproblem with food, with eating.
I see people who have a problemwith shopping.
I have see people who have aproblem with their cell phone

(15:32):
and screen time.
You know, I have an issue withthat too.
So I know that everybody goesthrough their addictions and
their vices.
Right Like I was never addictedto heroin.
Right so I don't know whatthat's like, I was never
addicted to Huh.
But you tried it.
No, I didn't try heroin.

Speaker 2 (15:54):
No, I wouldn't have judged you for that.

Speaker 1 (15:56):
I did try.
I did try meth once and becauseI'm an uppers guy I never did
downers, so heroin or likeVicodin and all that shit.

Speaker 2 (16:06):
I'm an up, yeah, yeah .

Speaker 1 (16:09):
So I didn't, I didn't fuck with any of that shit.
But I don't like want to saylike, like I was addicted to
alcohol which, out of all myaddictions, like I've never had
the withdrawals that I had, likewith alcohol.
That's some heavy shit.
You know like for two weeks Iwas like it was miserable, you
know, like dry, heaving,throwing up, sweating through

(16:30):
all of my clothes, like cryingmiserably, like it was fucked up
.

Speaker 2 (16:36):
I was hard as fuck.
It was.

Speaker 1 (16:38):
I mean, I was drinking a fifth a day for like
a year, you know, and this one'sa cool shit Like yo.

Speaker 2 (16:46):
this is relaxing I'm.
This is some rage type.
It was awesome.

Speaker 1 (16:52):
I'm sitting in my apartment by myself doing it.
It wasn't some rage shitnearing the end of my addictions
, I was very anti social, I wasunder my rock, I was very
depressed.
You know, it wasn't like I'mgoing to go out and party and
stuff, like I did it all in myapartment pretty much, you know.

Speaker 2 (17:11):
So what I mean?
I'm sure you've been throughthis with your therapist, but
like, is it a deeper issue,while you felt the need to go
overboard, like compensating forsomething or just it was just
fun, because that's?

Speaker 1 (17:22):
cool.
It started out as fun, though,you know, or like you always
make it out, you know it always,like I said from the start,
like we wouldn't have done thesethings unless like it was fun
in a sense, or pleasurable, youknow, to overcompensate, you
know that's.
That's actually interesting.
The issue I was having is, youknow, I couldn't forgive myself

(17:45):
for how I had treated myself andhow I had treated other people
in my life.
So, in order to make myselffeel more ashamed and miserable,
I dug a deeper hole.

Speaker 2 (17:57):
That shit is the craziest like thought process of
all time.

Speaker 1 (18:02):
It's pretty fucked up .
It's like it is one of the mostnegative things I've ever had
the pleasure of encountering inmy life, you know.
I've never like, like, pure,pure hate, like I, like there
are forms of hate towards otherpeople.
You know, we don't even need togo into it.
Like the world has a lot ofhate, but self-hatred is some of

(18:26):
the most crazy shit I've everseen, for sure, because it
doesn't really make a lot ofsense why we're doing it.
It does, no, it doesn't, but nowon the other side of it, like,
like, how you said, my, my lensnow, like, after being sober for
four and a half years, whatI've been able to accomplish,

(18:48):
how I feel right now like Idon't think I could ever go back
, you know.

Speaker 2 (18:55):
Do you so like like.
All of that was like instantgratification.
It feels good right now.
You feel like shit later.
Oh, I didn't have you.
Oh, you didn't feel like no.

Speaker 1 (19:05):
I just kept re-upping , though, If I started to come
down, come down.
You know, that's the thing,that that's the point of being
like an addict, like normal,normal people I don't you know
people who aren't normal like me.
I have the periods where Idon't like drink or use and
stuff.
Like you'll come down and belike all right, I'm going to
start to another day, right,you're like I, it's like I said,

(19:28):
from it's a snowball.
You know, I'll keep going.

Speaker 2 (19:32):
You're telling me that you didn't have any periods
where, like you know I'm Ican't re-up on this because I
don't have enough money or likeso there had to be a situation
where you didn't either didn'thave enough money, you didn't
have the transportation to getthe hit the plug in, like what,
what those?

Speaker 1 (19:50):
were filled with rage .
Those were like angry momentsyou know, you know that, or I
would try and go to bed so Iwouldn't have to, like, think
about coming down.
You know, like, um, yeah, Imean, it's just not getting what
you want.
You know, it's almost like achildish tantrum in those
moments.
So, yeah, of course there'smoments where you run out of

(20:12):
money or I can't re-up.
You know, and those were themoments that I was the most
frustrated, you know, because Iwould be face to face with the,
with the demons that I wasfacing at those moments, you
know self hatred oh yeah, ohyeah.

Speaker 2 (20:28):
Fucked.
What was?
What was a breakthrough moment,though.

Speaker 1 (20:31):
Like the breakthrough moment was.
I was.
This was 2019.
It was May and I had woken upin a pile of like spit and vomit
right on my apartment floor.
You know, I'd done it like acouple of times before that, but
not I don't know.
Something clicked that day andnormally I would get up, crush a

(20:57):
five hour energy, take a showerand try and go to work and act
like you know.
Nothing happened.
But uh, I, like you, didn't wakeup and Right exactly, and that
day I just I don't know man, Iwas like dude, I'm not going to
like make music, I'm not goingto love myself, I'm not going to
find someone to love me, likeall of these things.

(21:17):
I know that life has to offerme like.
I won't be able to get them ifI continue doing what I'm doing
Right.
And I had tried moderation.
You know family members hadbeen like people who didn't
really understand it to likedude, just like moderate it, you
know, and I'm like I tried for.

Speaker 2 (21:37):
Well, you don't think ?
I've tried that before.

Speaker 1 (21:39):
Like it was trial and error for like eight years and
I'm like dude, I just I justcan't do it, you know.
But that, that mentality oflike zero to a hundred, you know
if I could harness it in apositive way, like writing books
or doing podcasting, orcreativity like I'm very
relentless with stuff like that,you know.

Speaker 2 (22:00):
So and that was my question.
Is that realization, and whensupplied to positive things like
that's everything is yeah, it'sum.

Speaker 1 (22:10):
I do go overboard with the positive things
sometimes and then I get burnedout.
You know, like I'll hoop, I'llplay basketball like five, six
days a week and then, you know,get a knee injury, you know,
because I just hoop too much.
You know, um, yeah, yeah, likeI just fucking I love hooping.
You know, or like I'll be soproductive with writing and
podcasting that I'll eventuallyget burned out and be like damn,

(22:33):
I'm not even like an enjoyingmy other hobbies right now, you
know.

Speaker 2 (22:38):
Moderation even is in everything.
It's key, but better yeah ofcourse.

Speaker 1 (22:45):
Um yeah, I just had to learn how to like start
filling my time with morepositive things, you know so.

Speaker 2 (22:53):
It seems like, or even just stopped doing the
negative shit, and theneverything just falls into place
for you.

Speaker 1 (23:00):
Right, um, it's funny you say that too because, like
the first year that I was sober,I just played video games and
watched anime as it, that's not,that's not.
No, it's not but I needed and Istill had my e-sig at that point
, like I was still smokingnicotine.
But I told myself, um and thiswas actually an idea I was going

(23:21):
to have for another self-helpbook, um called the hierarchy of
habits I've talked about it alittle bit on here where I was
going to write a book explaininglike my replacement process,
like to replace old habits withgood ones, you know.
So I would start at the bottomwith like my really bad habits,
like the cocaine and alcohol,and then I'm like I can't like

(23:45):
immediately replace those withlike really good habits like
eating salad and working out,cause the dopamine just don't
hit like that, you know don'thit at all Right.
So I needed to like replace itwith a little something that's
like okay, this isn't productive, but it's not.
You know, drugs and alcohol.
So I chose like anime and videogames and then I slowly weaned

(24:09):
off of those to like put morepositive things, and you know,
you, you can't go from zero to100 all the time.

Speaker 2 (24:18):
Cuz on the.

Speaker 1 (24:20):
Everything else right , not I crashed and burned a
million times attemptingsobriety because I tried to
replace all my bad habits withreally good ones Right away.

Speaker 2 (24:30):
Yeah, it just never worked and that'll probably make
you go right back.
Exact that's what happened?

Speaker 1 (24:34):
Yeah, that's why I failed.

Speaker 2 (24:42):
But you got it now, man.
It's beautiful to see.

Speaker 1 (24:44):
I didn't even see you during this period of your life
, though, so I'm just hearing itright like, read like yeah, I
never saw it when we werechilling, I so, after the first
stint I have had with addictionand failing out of school and
stuff, I got my shit togetherfor six months and I was
completely stone cold, sober andI got straight A's at a

(25:09):
community college and gotre-accepted into Grand Valley
and that that's when you met meon my time around.

Speaker 2 (25:18):
Yeah, we might have talked about that, but that
being so many years ago, I knowit was a minute ago, but I
started like using seldomly like.

Speaker 1 (25:28):
When you met me too, I was like, but, like I said, I
was on the Dean's list, you know.

Speaker 2 (25:33):
So I was partying.

Speaker 1 (25:34):
Occasionally I was on the Dean's list, I had all my
shit together and, like you said, I had my shit together, but I
Don't know man, a year and ahalf, like I said, it's just a
snowball.
You know you, you lose a couplepeople in your life or some
other life changes happen, andthen I'll immediately go back to
my old Addictions or comfort.

(25:54):
You know, and it just destroyedme.

Speaker 2 (25:56):
So yeah, so I mean I always wonder, like you, nobody
can help you through thisjourney.
It's like a self-realization,right?
So what advice can you evenreally give to someone?
Because, because they just gotto make the choice themselves,
at the end Of the day, I couldtell you whatever you want.

(26:16):
But if you don't do it likeright.

Speaker 1 (26:22):
It's funny you said that too, because after three
weeks of strong arming, mysobriety in 2019.
So I got sober from the drugsand alcohol for three weeks and
my one friend in my group hereReferred me to my mentor at the
time.
They're like, oh, you need likea therapist or something.
I'm like, yeah, she goes.

(26:43):
Oh well, he's 27 years, sobertoo.
And I'm like, okay, this is,this is perfect.

Speaker 2 (26:47):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (26:49):
Because I had a therapist growing up but he
Couldn't relate that he couldn'thelp me through what I was
going through at this point, youknow.
So I was like searching for adifferent Therapist and after
having the first hour sessionWith him, he goes well, I, I got
some good news, I can see you,right, like I have a slot

(27:10):
available to see you from now.
And I'm like alright, this isgreat, he goes, you just have to
promise me that you're notgonna use anymore.
And I'm like Well, yeah, that'swhy I'm in here.
And he goes no, like seriously,like if we're going to do this
work, if you're going to heal,like you need to do it, do it
right.
So, like you said, I can givesomebody advice, you know, but

(27:33):
you have to make that decisionto do it right.
So so I did not.
I'm sure the second said thatyou were just like.
I took a step back and I waslike man, I thought I came in
here because I was gonna do that.
And then when he said it again,I'm like oh shit, no, I'm
actually gonna fucking do it.
You know, like I'm doing itdoing it.
So yeah, that's that's where I'mat if I had to give any advice

(27:57):
to somebody.
And here's the other thing Ijust had an episode with my
cousin last week.
My cousin was addicted to fastfood and smoking weed, you know.
And then for COVID he lost like70 pounds and turned his life
around for the better, you know.
And he he occasionally has likea glass of scotch and a cigar,

(28:21):
you know, here and there, youknow he isn't a full-blown
addict like I am.
He's able to moderate it.
But he had to take a step backand realize what health is, you
know?
And then he was able to enjoythese things seldomly.
I know a few people in my lifewho can do that.
So I think the advice that Iwould give people is like try
and understand what kind ofaddict you are.

(28:41):
If you're gonna put yourself Inthis conversation, if you just
need to give it up completelylike hey, man, it's, it's, it's
nice over here, I'll tell youthat it's.
Also, if you don't think you'reas extreme as me but you want
to get some shit figured out,like how you look at yourself or
your relationships or yourhealth, then just take a break

(29:03):
from a few things you know likeyou gotta imagine like life is
like sometimes 60 to 80 yearslong, like you don't need to be
fucked up for most of your adultlife.

Speaker 2 (29:12):
You know like fucking chill hey you know, we think we
do, we do and we know it's, weknow it's fucking fun.
I mean, I know it is.

Speaker 1 (29:23):
It is fun and I don't know.
I always like after takingEastern philosophy at at Grand
Valley that year I was there thesecond time around.
I look through a lens of likeBuddhism a lot and Taoism like.
I spent eight years likedestroying my body and my life.
So man trying to like do theopposite.

(29:47):
You know, it's always a balance, like you've said, or
moderation.

Speaker 2 (29:53):
Yes, I always tell my friends it's it's way more fun
to realize your life purpose andlike get that shit, oh God,
yeah, like you think it's so fundoing this, but like,
especially my artist friends,for sure, just doing drugs, not
making any music.
I'm doing it with them, but I'malso doing the work like making
right yeah, and that that'sactually the most fun.

(30:15):
All that is Achieving your lifepurposes, right.
Anybody can party, not everybodyanybody can party not everyone
can find their life purpose andand and even if you find it
putting the work into, I likeLike those guys know their life
purpose.

(30:35):
They're just like not Grabbingonto it.
You know what you're meant todo yeah.

Speaker 1 (30:41):
We I know, we know it , when you find it too,
sometimes you try and doubtyourself too.
You know, sometimes you try andgive yourself reasons on why
it's not gonna work out or someshit like that.
You know you.
Just that's okay too.
It is okay.
You know.
I viewed as a journey also likeif I, if somebody told me like

(31:03):
10 years ago and I was in themidst of everything that in 10,
10 years down the road I wasgonna be completely sober,
trying to find a way to helpother people attain their dreams
, I would have been like no, I'mgonna just party and be a
Famous rich rap star when you're20.

Speaker 2 (31:20):
That's right, yeah.

Speaker 1 (31:23):
Yeah, but then like pieces start falling into place
with your purpose and you gottajust move with it, you know.

Speaker 2 (31:33):
The conscious decision is.
I'm saying and then?
And then I mean people Take itas preaching when you try to say
these things.
Yeah, I'm just keeping it real.

Speaker 1 (31:47):
Yeah, I mean you're gonna look back on this combo
not you and me, but whoever andbe like yeah, yeah, we don't
view it it we, we take thingstoo personally sometimes, like
if you were to say somethinglike that people like, well,
you're just, you're taking shotsat me, you know, I'd out of
like a sense of pride and then,realistically, you're doing it
out of a sense of love, like, no, I want to see you succeed, you

(32:10):
know.

Speaker 2 (32:12):
Dude, I have a bunch of friends like that.
I'm how can I believe in youmore than you believe in
yourself?
And then you take that as afence, that I believe in you
more than you believe inyourself?
You should be like damn bro,like thank you bro right, but we
don't view it at that moment.

Speaker 1 (32:27):
Nah, there, though, too, trust me, I think we've all
been there before.
Like, like I said, when you'reyounger especially when you're
younger you take things as likea personal shot, you know.
And then, as I've gotten olderand, like I said, with the
sobriety like everything just soclear to me right now, when

(32:51):
people like talk to me and whenI listen to myself and all that
stuff, it's, it's being able totake a step back and being self
aware of it, you know.
Like self-awareness, everythingthere there's loving places
where you never thought therewas love pretty much.

Speaker 2 (33:10):
Yeah, there is.
That's, that's powerful, rightthere.
I love that.
I like that.
Backyard dog right there.

Speaker 1 (33:21):
So when is your next album coming out?

Speaker 2 (33:25):
buddy Dog, it's in the works, man All right man,
you know, you know what it isJust all the tracks are done.
Just trying to get the mixingdone.
Yeah, man, I actually have alot of content, a lot that's
good, so I ain't worried on thatfor a man.
Sure, I'll be waiting for, I'llbe waiting for it to drop.
I really appreciate listeningto all your projects right when

(33:48):
they drop Word up.
Man and Yo man, you're not evenas close with me as some of my
good friends, but you tap inMore than the people who I would
expect to tap in.
So I always, I never, forgetshit like that.
You and your brother show it up.
Yeah, after a year showing up,taking time out of your week,

(34:10):
your day, it's all love, man,like we were saying, you just
want to see the homie succeed,right?

Speaker 1 (34:20):
Yeah, but you put your money where your mouth is
and pulled up yeah.

Speaker 2 (34:25):
Yeah, I ain't, I ain't front man, you know that.

Speaker 1 (34:29):
No.
I gotta cop that book, man like.

Speaker 2 (34:33):
It's ASAP.
Wait, you ain't got a copy yet.
I Feel like I swear.
I bought one, bro.
You bought one, you took apicture of me.

Speaker 1 (34:41):
I bought one of you.
I feel like.

Speaker 2 (34:44):
I swear, I bought one bro.

Speaker 1 (34:45):
You bought one, you took a picture of it and sent it
over snap.

Speaker 2 (34:51):
Just never.

Speaker 1 (34:52):
I never chopped it up with you sure that's I was
gonna say, if you, if you wantanother copy, I'll send you one.
I got a bunch of.
I got a bunch of copies rightnow.

Speaker 2 (35:01):
Now I might be in my car because I read all the time.
I'm trying to see it's probablyit's in there, yeah.

Speaker 1 (35:08):
I had.
I had an episode with WithMuncie.
I've had a couple episodes withMuncie, so he actually he
actually did some reading andthen he wanted to talk to me
about the book, too that we didon an episode.

Speaker 2 (35:21):
Yeah, see, now, I wish I would have done that.
But and do you have any plansto write another book, though?
I mean, it's high time.
That was what, like a year anda half ago.

Speaker 1 (35:32):
Yeah, no, I got it actually.
Well, I got a couple man, youknow.
So I was gonna write thathierarchy of habits book, which
was gonna be like a step-by-stepself-help book about how to get
your habits and vices undercontrol.
But I had some shit happenearlier this year that made me

(35:54):
Write almost like an entirelynew book back in May or June.
Dude, in like, in like threeweeks, I wrote 20,000 words in
three weeks.
I just fucking pumped it outand the next book is going to be
it's just gonna be called F.
Lisa doesn't like it.
I'm just gonna call it F.

Speaker 2 (36:15):
Okay, so she's got a point from like a Perception
standpoint, people would be likehalf right type shit.
I could go like on the internet.

Speaker 1 (36:26):
When you say F like, you're just like saying like
fuck, you know, right, which islike a running joke with a bunch
of gamers and stuff.
But originally I was just gonnacall it fear, forgiveness and
freedom, right.
And Then I wanted to throwfailure in there too and I'm
like that's too many fuckingapps.
There's four apps, you know.

(36:48):
On the title, let's just callit F, right.

Speaker 2 (36:52):
Where I get the.
When you explain it, it makesperfect right.

Speaker 1 (36:56):
She goes.
Maybe you should put it insmall font on the front.
I'm like you know, I'll hire aPR person for that shit, you
know.
But uh, but I wanted to writeon.
Forgiveness was like a topic Ireally wanted to like dive into,
cuz I I can't really say I'mreligious anymore after being

(37:21):
raised really religious, and IWant to touch base on that topic
for people who aren't religious.
You know, like the topic offorgiveness is something Even
when I was a practicingChristian I didn't understand it
fully, you know.
So I Just wanted to dive intoto that topic to try and make it

(37:41):
more accessible for everybody,even if you are religious or not
.

Speaker 2 (37:44):
You know, I I don't even think the word has like
religious.
It shouldn't have religiousconnotations, like some shit is
like human, like you can explainthat without even ever
mentioning religion to me, forexample.
Some people need to draw thatreligious parallel, but I never

(38:06):
view things in a religious lens,like anything, and honestly,
breaking it down that way to mewould make me like turn me off.
Well, yeah, so it's for me,it's everybody work.

Speaker 1 (38:18):
That's how I am right now too.
So I was actually raised, youknow, private school like super
religious, like I was likeLutheran or Christian reformed
or something like that.
So everything had that kind oflike religious lens or
overbearingness of it.

(38:39):
So I wanted to try and liketalk about that without the
religious aspect of it.
You know Cause.
I think, one of the biggestreasons why people don't find
their life's purposes cause theydon't forgive themselves for
making mistakes when they'refinding it.
You know, like we make a fewmistakes on our path and we're
like, well, I'm just not gonnamake it or I'm not gonna figure

(39:03):
it out.
You know, I'm just gonna workthis job and pay the bills and
shit.
You know, cause you don'tforgive yourself for just
fucking living.
You know.

Speaker 2 (39:12):
That shit is crazy too.
Like I don't.
I feel like a lot of people doactually have that figured out.
If you look at anyone who was,like, accomplished anything,
they realized that mistakes arejust part of the journey.
You wouldn't you have to makemistakes before you make, like
the right move.
You have to.

(39:33):
It's honestly good that you'remaking mistakes.
That means you're trying yeah.
Some people that shouldn't betaken out so late.

Speaker 1 (39:40):
Some people are afraid of failing, though I was
too.
We were.

Speaker 2 (39:43):
It sucks.

Speaker 1 (39:44):
I still think, yeah, I mean, it fucking sucks, you
know, but you gotta like rollwith the punches, right, yeah?

Speaker 2 (39:51):
I think and this is where I always have a problem
with I've got a friend whothinks that I don't feel that
same fear.
Some people just recognize thefear, take it as part of what it
is, but we still feel that samefear you feel, just disregard
it.
My friends got a fear of likeputting music out and getting

(40:14):
judged.
As if I don't have that fearevery time I release a track,
but I know that it's just allright, it's part of the game,
right?
I'm scared too, brother.
I'm scared too.
I'm even more scared now that Igot something to protect A
little bit of, a little bit ofbuzz to protect.
I'm even more scared than I wasback then.

(40:34):
Got it.
So you know I get it.

Speaker 1 (40:40):
On that front, I think and it's tough being an
artist in general, like when Iwas putting out gloving videos
or like when I actually I didthat Grand Valley talent show in
2016, and I did like a wholechoreographed dance with like
the gloves on my hands and shit.
I was so nervous.
I remember seeing that takesballs, brother.

(41:00):
That takes balls, brother, DudeI know it fucking, and I I
wasn't even fucked up doing it,I was completely sober, you know
, and that's crazy.
Yeah, I'm saying you know, I wasworried about putting music out
too, but then I started torealize, like dude, nobody's
gonna be more critical about mywork than me.

(41:20):
You know, like if somebody'sgonna drop a comment on how I
suck, I've already said it tomyself in some way, shape or
form, as a critic, as an innercritic of my artist experience,
right.
So I just realized I'm likedude, I gotta put this shit out.
Like no one's gonna roast mebetter than I've roasted myself
already.
You know.

Speaker 2 (41:44):
I think, I think, that's that's true too.
That's true too.

Speaker 1 (41:49):
And in a sense you gotta realize that, for all the
people who might give you shitfor what you put out, you gotta
look at how many people you'reaffecting in a positive manner,
who are gonna enjoy your shit,you know.

Speaker 2 (42:04):
I mean, once again, that's what I would try to tell
anyone who's scared.
There's a lot of people Rightwho need to hear that, and even
they'd hear that and still belike, nah, whatever.

Speaker 1 (42:17):
And it likes too short for that shit, though, man
.

Speaker 2 (42:22):
Hey, it is, it is man Flex that tattoo real quick.
Which one?
Oh, the latest one man, thelatest sleeve.
Wait, hold up.
He said, wait, hold up, I gottoo much.

Speaker 1 (42:36):
Baby Still getting filled in right, I just had that
.

Speaker 2 (42:39):
Yo, that rosary at the end is crazy.
That's dope.

Speaker 1 (42:42):
And then I got that right there.

Speaker 2 (42:45):
I hold it low five dog with the analog clock for
the woo tough.
Tough, that's tough, baby, yo,that's tough.

Speaker 1 (42:57):
That's tough, this one on this arm I just had done
last week, last Thursday, somost of the scabs are off, so
I'm finally gonna be able tohoop tomorrow.
I'm fucking so ready for it,man.

Speaker 2 (43:13):
You like hoop and doler, you like doing like five
on five runs one on one.

Speaker 1 (43:17):
So recently, in the last couple months or this
summer and this year, I've beenplaying like a lot more 32.
And I got a buddy who's tryingto get back into hooping.
So what's 32?
32 is like 21, you know.

Speaker 2 (43:32):
Exactly play to 32.

Speaker 1 (43:34):
Yeah, you play well it's like one on one, so like if
there's four people, you playup to 32 by twos and threes.
If you miss the shot, theperson who gets the rebound.
You guard them.
So it's just one on oneessentially the whole game.

Speaker 2 (43:51):
Yeah, see, everyone's got their iterations of games.
That sounds like King of the.

Speaker 1 (43:55):
Quarter.
Yeah, essentially yeah.

Speaker 2 (43:57):
Yeah, you got you okay.

Speaker 1 (43:59):
King of the court's a little different, though,
because you're literally playingone on one, but in 32, like,
everybody's there trying to getthe rebound and shit.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, forsure.
I used to play fives like fouror five days a week.
You know, I'd play at LAFitness.
That was where I would runfives with everybody.
I haven't been running fivesthis year, though, because, man

(44:24):
dude, sometimes it's just a bigego contest.

Speaker 2 (44:28):
Bro.
That's what I don't play.
Bro, I'm the chill.
I ain't got time to yo buttheads with anybody.
I'm just trying to get mycardio on G.

Speaker 1 (44:37):
Dude, it sucks.
Listen, it's like I'm justtrying to have fun, like, don't
get me wrong.
Like when you see me out there,I'm 110% Dennis Rodman out
there you know I'm running right, but the minute you start
arguing about shit like this theNBA I'm like bro.

Speaker 2 (44:54):
Yo cats is tripping dog, like there's too much
testosterone going around.

Speaker 1 (45:00):
Like yo Dude people got to chill man.

Speaker 2 (45:05):
And I've always been like the cat to let my game talk
Like oh, you think it's a foul,you can have that, take the
ball back.
I'll defend you and get thatball back, right?
Or oh, okay, I can't call afoul back, you can have a ball,
whatever.
Like game talks.
Well, what we talking about.

Speaker 1 (45:21):
I don't.
I don't like getting fuckingmad about that shit anymore.
So I just stopped going,because there used to be a
Snapchat group where everyonewould say which LA fitness they
were going to play at during theweek, and I just left the group
.
I'm like this ain't good for me, man.
I got some bad juju rubbing offon me, you know.

Speaker 2 (45:39):
Yeah, it's just not.
It's never that serious Withanything.
I feel like no, Ego is crazy.
Like even someone cuts you offon the road and you feel the
need to get into some road rage.
Man, Like fuck it all with you.
Like it's not chill, it's not.
It's not that big of a deal,it's not.

Speaker 1 (45:58):
It's that self-awareness though being able
to take a step back.
You know I'm not perfect.
I get mad all the fucking time,especially about what you just
said road rage Because manpeople be driving dumb as fuck
out here.
So it's it's.

Speaker 2 (46:12):
But to ever let that get physical is just like.

Speaker 1 (46:16):
Oh God, yeah, no, I could never.
I'm not like that, hell no.

Speaker 2 (46:21):
If you see it all the time.

Speaker 1 (46:23):
Yeah, I don't know what people got to groove,
though man, it's they hey.

Speaker 2 (46:29):
It's the ego, right, it is, and that's a big problem
and not to get like race relatedbut like a big thing in the
black community is like proventhat who's tougher than who.

Speaker 1 (46:43):
I gotta act all hard, and this gangsta this gangsta
Like all right.
Well, as you may know, it'smore.
You know I live outside of thecity, but there's like
basketball, it's not a whiteperson sport, as you as you know
, you know, there's you know,not a lot of white people can
hoop, so I'm just telling youthat Yo, that's mad funny.

Speaker 2 (47:08):
Doug.

Speaker 1 (47:09):
I mean, I mean I, you know, I just say it out is you
know it's, it's tough, but youknow, I, I see it's not.
Even when I'm playing, when I'mhooping.
It's not really a race thingbecause there's so many
different races on the court.
And, like you said, ego is aproblem man, ego is a problem

(47:29):
Everyone's.
It's a man problem.
Everybody's trying to betougher than everyone.

Speaker 2 (47:35):
Bro, that shit is so wack to me.
That's even why I've got evencertain friends who are supposed
to be your brothers, but theyput on this air of like
competition.
We're not even competing.
You're my dog, Right?
Why are you trying to?
Why are you trying to big brome right now?
I'm not even competing with you.
You're competing with me, andit's one side Like bro, we don't

(47:58):
got to do that thing you dowith other people.
Like we can actually just belike Chill.

Speaker 1 (48:03):
Not, you know, just be like normal friends, like
like a rivalries one thing orlike if you're playing super
smash bros and talking shit toeach other, you know.

Speaker 2 (48:12):
But yeah, oh, that's where it's like I'm talking yeah
, you know that's goodcompetition.

Speaker 1 (48:17):
But if you're like trying to compete in life and
like put your homies down andshit, it's like nah, Shit is
good.

Speaker 2 (48:23):
I've got friends that I can't.
I can no longer be around them,even though I want to be, but
that constant need to like provesomething.
You don't need to prove thingsto your friends.

Speaker 1 (48:35):
Those are the last people you need to like do play
that game, no cause the realones are the ones who like
respect you for who you arealready you know, so you ain't
gotta prove shit, right.

Speaker 2 (48:47):
Say what?

Speaker 1 (48:47):
Yeah, yeah, no, it's, yeah, I don't know, man Fuck.
I mean, if you've realized thatthere's some people you can't
like hang around like that'salso another thing that came
with my sobriety too.
Like I said, I still have allmy homies who still use and shit
like that.
I still needed to give that abreak in order to recalibrate my

(49:10):
life.
You know, you have to make thisRight.
I mean that just comes withgrowing, though too, you know it
does.

Speaker 2 (49:21):
It's sad, though, like you're not conducive to my
new mission, I can't really hangaround with you.
You can't fuck with it, nope,and honestly you'd be to both
kill on both sides.

Speaker 1 (49:33):
Dog yeah right, it just turns the whole thing sour,
you know.

Speaker 2 (49:40):
Yeah, I've even got friends who, like they don't
drink or like they don't evendrink it.
Like I'm not, I don't drinklike you did, but drinking is a
big thing, just for theatmosphere that I like to be a
part of, right, like I like togo to the bar and play pool and
throw back a couple drinks, justlike any dude.
But if you're not into that,like you're not really gonna

(50:03):
kick it with me a lot, right,just cause that's my atmosphere.
Right, Right and it's as simpleas that.
Friends I haven't seen in aminute.
They just don't like to do thatshit.

Speaker 1 (50:15):
Yeah, I do like playing pool, you know.
But there is a limit to howlong I can stay out in a bar
setting.
But you know I don't have abilliards table in my house, so
you know I gotta go somewhere toplay, you know.

Speaker 2 (50:30):
That's the only reason I want a house is for
that.
Then I wouldn't even leave thecrib.

Speaker 1 (50:35):
Man, I'm just waiting for a fucking house bro.
I'm sick of this apartmentliving.

Speaker 2 (50:42):
What you mean, it's a bed.

Speaker 1 (50:44):
Yeah, we got a two bedroom right now.

Speaker 2 (50:46):
In Chicago.
It must be nice.

Speaker 1 (50:48):
Yeah, it is.
I actually got a hookup withone of the one of the clients we
have for bookkeeping is a realestate person, so he hooked us
up with a really nice place torent out.

Speaker 2 (51:00):
So yeah, that's the beauty of life is connections.

Speaker 1 (51:04):
Man, life is all about connections.
I had to come off from under myrock to realize that you know.

Speaker 2 (51:11):
Yeah, and yo, I had this conversation with a friend
too.
You're robbing people of yourwho John Cerrone is by being
under that rock, You're not onlyrobbing yourself from making
connections people need.

Speaker 1 (51:26):
John too, people need everybody, man, people need you
Word, but you were robbing theworld.
Yeah, I know, I know.
I had, I had see, that's thething I had to love myself first
before I was confident comingout, you know.

Speaker 2 (51:41):
That was the thing.

Speaker 1 (51:41):
Now I'm trying to like share who I am with all
those other people who need tohear that you know.

Speaker 2 (51:48):
Yeah, look at that, that podcast you were telling me
about that.
They won that like your nichein the addiction they shot at
you.
I'll talk about yo yo.
Come on Arsia, we like yourstory.

Speaker 1 (52:01):
Yeah, the wellness one, bro.
Yeah, look at that.
That was crazy too, cause I hadalways thought that this is
just gonna be a shoot the shittype of thing in person.
Then I started getting hit upby people who have like heard my
story and stuff.
So I gotta get back on thatlike guest speaking trying to
hit some people up.
You know I got to.

(52:21):
I'm trying to come out with anew book again, so I could like
start marketing that, though youknow.

Speaker 2 (52:26):
Yeah, I mean your professionalism comes through.
Yeah, like, even if you'reseeing this shit, you could tell
like this guy's are really notplaying around on the aesthetics
front, right?
He's an eloquent speaker, he'sgot a good background and shit
yeah.
Got the stir at some set ofbeing all that?

Speaker 1 (52:44):
Hey boy, I'm playing, hey boy, I'm playing around.
You see that Mike SheeshBeautiful.
God, I got two of thesemotherfuckers bro.
I might as well put them bothup, put two mics next to each
other, just just yeah, just toflat on these motherfuckers.

Speaker 2 (53:01):
Flexin' Got two motherfuckers.

Speaker 1 (53:04):
I should man have one like?

Speaker 2 (53:06):
have one going down, have one going up, like yeah,
yeah, I got two, yeah.

Speaker 1 (53:12):
Got two.
Yeah, it was a good cop, when Igot these microphones, I was
like I think it was in Februaryand I'm like I was using an AKG
and a Bluebird mic.
But the Bluebird mic was for,like, when I was recording the
rap vocals, you know.

Speaker 2 (53:32):
Yeah, music yeah.
Condenser versus it was like abroadcast mic, right yeah.
So Radio.

Speaker 1 (53:38):
Yeah, so in February, I'm like man, if I'm going to
do this, I'm going to fucking dothis right.
So I just went into guitarcenter and I'm like you better
hook me the fuck up right now.

Speaker 2 (53:45):
And that's a decision anyone who's serious has to
make.
Invest in yourself, right,right, and you, you.
It may not even been the final,the right moment financially,
but you knew you'd be all rightand that it was just.
It was the right move to make.

Speaker 1 (54:01):
You know, for me, when you're finding your purpose
, man like sometimes moneydoesn't matter.

Speaker 2 (54:05):
You know it never matters.
I hate when, like, okay, itdoes matter, well, let's like
not lose your fucking apartment,right, right, but this tour
that I booked I lost money everysingle, every single day.
I had to go to the road trip,the expenses, the Airbnb's, I
had to break people off.

(54:26):
Sometimes the turnout wasn'tpopping and like, all in all it
was an L financially, but it wasa dub for meeting people making
fans and hitting the ground.

Speaker 1 (54:37):
I was going to say that was probably the best
fucking part, though, man, I'lldo it again.
But it it was like yeah, Idon't want to hear people saying
like, yeah, uh, like it was anL financially and that's, that's
a given Of course I mean whenyou're starting out with

(54:59):
anything like that, like I tooka huge L putting out the book
and all the other stuff withthat, like it ain't cheap to do
that shit, you know.
Same thing with same thing withproducing music, Like if you're
going to have it mixed andmastered correctly, studio time
and shit.
It's an expensive fucking hobbyand it's an expensive fucking
dream to start out.
I'll tell you that For sure.

(55:19):
But the dub is, the dub isdoing it, you know, actually
doing it.
That's the dub First.

Speaker 2 (55:26):
Okay, Dude that's in my bio.
No, I had to change my socialmedia bio to something I heard
Deon Sanders say.
He said him and no chose, cinco, we're going at it.
He said yeah, man, I don't talk, my game is too loud because,
like my fuckers, be talking butI don't need to talk Cause, like
you see what the fuck I'm doing, that'll speak louder than

(55:47):
whatever I say.

Speaker 1 (55:48):
Like, was that on a podcast?

Speaker 2 (55:52):
It was man.
You know the football NBApodcast they do now that
everyone was the batonwoods.

Speaker 1 (55:56):
Por these in December .

Speaker 2 (55:59):
Yeah, no, it wasn't on Shaysay, it was like Brandon
Club chase a smile.

Speaker 1 (56:05):
I fucking love on command.
He's the man.
Yeah, yeah, podcast peas, dopeto.

Speaker 2 (56:15):
Yo, so you.
So you do watch the basketballjoints Podcast peas.
Don't play Thompson.

Speaker 1 (56:24):
I haven't heard plays and Dreymons really that much,
but I I like.
I like podcast P.
I know Pat Bebs got one.
I Like JJ Reddick.
Sometimes I just like theshortened clips of everything
you know, but Podcast P hasreally good guests on like.
I love when he has like DeMarcome on, or he has like.

Speaker 2 (56:48):
Because they were like they all.
Those three were friends from alike college and a.
You like even the, the guest onpodcast P the point guard.
Yeah they were telling storiesof like parties and shit.

Speaker 1 (57:01):
Yeah, I love that shit.
Honestly, basketball is theonly sport like I like watch,
watch, so invested in that.

Speaker 2 (57:10):
You should have me as good.
I Love that sport too and Ionly watch when I got like a
parlay going to be honest.

Speaker 1 (57:17):
But that's the one addiction I never got into.
Man my brothers are my brothersa big gambler, but See,
everybody got, everybody doeseveryone.
Yeah, I just always viewed itlike damn, how can I gamble this
money away if I needed to likespend it on booze?

(57:37):
You know, that was like thatwas.
That was what would go on in myhead with the gambling.
It's either the gambling or thedoing the drugs, you know.

Speaker 2 (57:46):
So I was like see, that's what that's actually.
What's actually interesting iswhat.
What you hold importance on orother likes, I would assume, the
adrenaline of gambling, thepossibility to win the jackpot,
but you're like, nah, I needthat, right, right well, he used
to be.

Speaker 1 (58:05):
He used to be a heavy alcoholic too.
He turned his shit around tostart chasing that running dream
, you know so.

Speaker 2 (58:17):
And did he?
Was he collegiate runner?
No, he just wanted to right now, he pitched.

Speaker 1 (58:23):
He was a pitcher at a College, a d3 college here, so
he was a lefty pitcher incollege.
No, he was not a runner, though.

Speaker 2 (58:35):
I do want to do one thing straight I don't care what
level of collegiate sports youplay, it's an, it's an
impressive thing that sets youapart from Someone who didn't
get to that level.

Speaker 1 (58:44):
Oh yeah for sure.

Speaker 2 (58:46):
I got nothing but respect for it for anybody, on
any collegiate tough I.

Speaker 1 (58:51):
I crapped out, I didn't.
My dad was so mad because I wassupposed to play at Grand
Valley when I graduated highschool.

Speaker 2 (58:58):
You had what it took, and that's, I'm sure, that
bites at you even to this day.

Speaker 1 (59:02):
Yeah, but I like basketball more.
Now, man and uh See that's acop, that's well, here's the
other thing.
I knew that I was a goodbaseball player, but and this is
me getting down on myself toobut after seeing, like some of

(59:22):
the other people who are comingin to play at a division two
school, I'm like, dude, I'm notriding bench man, I'm not, I'm
not that guy, I knew it likephysically, like, if we're
talking from a physicalstandpoint in genetics, like
there are some people in thisworld who are more blessed than
me.

Speaker 2 (59:39):
I had your skill level, that you're not
genetically blessed and you'restill with those right it was
all skill.

Speaker 1 (59:45):
I.
I had a really good first stepin the outfield.
I was really quick, I made gooddecisions, like I.
I it was all skill based, youknow, but I just wanted a party
which was at the real reasonbecause I knew going into it.
I'm like, if I'm gonna playbaseball at Grand Valley State,
I'm not gonna have time to likemingle with people, party or

(01:00:07):
even work on studies or do whatI want.
You know, like, like you said,it's mad respect for people who
do a college level sport.
Right and I didn't want to makethose.
So I.

Speaker 2 (01:00:20):
I'm sure a lot of people can agree.
That's why I have respect forthem that they did that because
for sure, yeah, my brother madethose.
No, you go ahead you good.
I was gonna say it's, it's.
It's always like to find outhow much respect is deserved,
because you've got the peoplewho actually aren't into the

(01:00:41):
partying, so they don't evenhave that as a potential
distraction.
And then you've got the peoplelike you who love partying and
love the sport.
You have to deal with thatdistraction.
Some people really just aren'tlike into that right.
So it's it's.
And this is another huge thingwith me some things are easier
for other people, based on thecircumstances around certain

(01:01:04):
vices and all of that, right you.
You've got your guy who's abookworm and doesn't party, or
was an athlete and doesn't party, does just even enjoy it.
And you've got John Sarone, wholikes both.
Let's stay on path with hisharder for John Right.
Just yeah, it was.

Speaker 1 (01:01:24):
It was harder for me to.
I mean most people who I Ihaven't been formally diagnosed
but after.
So my girlfriend is a uh, she'sa special education teacher in
the city of Chicago.
So she's you know, she dealswith a lot of um, neurodivergent
students and people, and Afterdating for three years, she like

(01:01:44):
points out a lot of like myadhd ticks and stuff like that
you know.
So it was very difficult for meto do one thing because I
wanted to do all the thingsright.

Speaker 2 (01:01:56):
So I'll look at that slide.
I, the America.
I'll tell you what America is,the number one culprit of youth
throwing those words around,right as I mean it's like how
she's dangerous.

Speaker 1 (01:02:06):
Like some people some which I was also very blessed
because I didn't get tested as akid Like if they tested me as a
kid and threw me on Adderall atseven or nine, like I would not
be the person I am today.
I don't think, just yeah,sometimes it's over.
It's over prescribed, whateverthey're doing in big pharma.

Speaker 2 (01:02:24):
So and it's.
It's not even just overprescribed.
It starts from the parents justnot saying hey, my kid just
needs to buckle to fuck up.
Oh, oh wait, there actually issomething wrong with them, or he
just they're not focused.

Speaker 1 (01:02:41):
Sometimes it does fall on the parents inability to
deal with certain things.
Like let, I'm not gonna saythat there, there are people out
there who need help.
You know, like from some of thestories you know that I've I've
heard like there are people whoare neurodivergent, you know,
but sometimes you know there'sthere's bad parenting too.

(01:03:04):
Let's just say that.

Speaker 2 (01:03:06):
Dude, yeah, and I'll also even bring it.
I saw this Facebook meme oflike Frozen pizza and how the
pepperoni comes all scatteredand you like to take the frozen
pizza, arrange the pepperonis ina logical order.
And then someone commented yeah, that's my ADHD.
And then there were a bunch ofcomments talking about Uh, we
just want the pepperoni evenly.

Speaker 1 (01:03:27):
Uh, that's not a d that's.

Speaker 2 (01:03:30):
And that that describes America Thinking
you're in need to place a pieceof pepperonis.

Speaker 1 (01:03:35):
ADHD.

Speaker 2 (01:03:36):
I mean, that's just I want.
I just want the pizza to belike I want.

Speaker 1 (01:03:41):
I want a good amount of pepperoni in each bite.

Speaker 2 (01:03:46):
And that damn sure isn't a dhd.

Speaker 1 (01:03:47):
It's not.

Speaker 2 (01:03:50):
That's.
That's what's going on.

Speaker 1 (01:03:51):
It's yeah, people mislabeling things like that.
I understand that it's crazy.

Speaker 2 (01:03:55):
I.

Speaker 1 (01:03:59):
I definitely.
You know, like you were saying,like there's the bookworm who
doesn't have the distraction ofparty, and then there's the
people who do the bookworm stuff, like in high school, like I
was super nerd, like I watchedanime and I still played pokemon
in video games and I was, I wasreally good at school, but then
I was a jock in every otheraspect, you know um.

Speaker 2 (01:04:21):
Yeah, that's.
I mean, that was should.
I was, me too, I was havingpokemon battles highest fucking
apart Our basketball sophomoreyear.
But like, but that's not evenbecause that's basically saying
you can't, you just havedifferent interests, right?
Like there's uh, nba playerswho love anime a lot.
That doesn't take away fromathletic progress.

Speaker 1 (01:04:44):
Well like like you were saying it.
There's some things that areeasier for other people or Like,
and there's priority.
So I didn't want to be acollege level athlete Because I
couldn't be a nerd and party,you know, but you could?

Speaker 2 (01:04:59):
some people did do it all.
Yeah, I, I fucking got that,though, and that's what I'm
saying.
It's okay to admit thatsomebody Can handle life better,
or those amount of that amountof time, constriction you know.
Yeah, like some people arereally better at things, that's

(01:05:20):
okay.
Like I have no problemadmitting that there are certain
people better at writing romsthan me.
Like, uh, they probably workedharder at it or maybe they're
just naturally better, it's okay.
But People have a problem likeadmitting that yo, maybe this

(01:05:42):
cat is just a hell of a humanbeing.

Speaker 1 (01:05:43):
They're just a guy's fucking just the little.
They're more disciplined,that's it.

Speaker 2 (01:05:48):
That's it at the end of the day, and you should.

Speaker 1 (01:05:54):
That's simple.
Trying to be more disciplinedas time goes on is the key,
which was also why I wanted toget sober too, because, yeah,
like like I've said throughoutthis hour, it's my my head's
more clear, you know, I'm ableto be more disciplined on the
things I needed to in order tobe productive.

Speaker 2 (01:06:13):
So yeah, I mean, and you've got a brother who's still
dabbling in and I'm sure that'sfinding that line of when you
need to call it quits with yourbro before something bad happens
.

Speaker 1 (01:06:27):
Yeah, well, oh, you mean my brother, like my homies,
your brother, no, he's, he'sgood.
He's one of the most he's.
He's such an inspirationalperson.
He's one of the most drivenpeople I know.
Like I, I've never met somebodywho's more healthy in terms of
the food they eat and how theytake care of their body than my
brother.
You know he, he just likes, youknow, throwing some money

(01:06:48):
around gambling here or there.
You know there are, there arepeople, there are a few people
in my life who, like you'vestated, like they're the
partying thing, um, or the notknowing their purpose and stuff
like that.
And there are people I have inmy life who are like that, you

(01:07:10):
know, and, like you had statedearlier, like you, you only want
them to succeed and you tellpeople things like and people
take it personally, right.
So there are people that youspend a little less time with as
you get older, right, but thatjust comes with changing, right
it does it's sad because ideallyyou uh all be on the same page

(01:07:34):
mentally and help each othergrow.

Speaker 2 (01:07:37):
But it's a personal decision.

Speaker 1 (01:07:40):
Yeah, it's a hard cookie to swallow too, because
you know they're the homies,right.

Speaker 2 (01:07:48):
Are they really the homies?
Are they really?
Oh god, because what they werewith that?
What they were was really theparty homies, the drinking
homies, the video game homies,the anime homies, and then
you've got your actual homieswho, regardless of interest,

(01:08:09):
there's your homies yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:08:12):
Right, that's the ride or die right there yeah all
I've got right now.

Speaker 2 (01:08:17):
We're like, uh, situational homies, wheeeee
homies, that homies.
I've got a couple like homies,all right, you know.

Speaker 1 (01:08:31):
It's tough, man.
It's tough coming to thoseconclusions though.
Yes, it's sad, yeah, but youknow, finding finding yourself
on the path to your purpose isway more rewarding, you know.

Speaker 2 (01:08:47):
So what is your purpose, though?
Like or do you got?

Speaker 1 (01:08:50):
have you nailed?
one down bro, I was just I.
You know I've had a problem,which is the the reason why I
was dabbling with the tobaccothis whole year too, because I
have like a weird thing where Iwant to be like a hero, you know
, but nobody's got superpowersright.
The only thing I want to firstsave myself, and then, with that

(01:09:15):
story, I just want to helppeople live a better life.
I don't know if it's gonna be.
You know, I'm not like apersonal trainer.
I'm not here to get youshredded for a marvel movie.
You know I'm not here to teachyou how to make a million
dollars, but what I can offeryou is Everybody has the
capability to Make thesacrifices to live a good life.

(01:09:39):
That's all I want to givepeople is to tell them that it
is possible, you know.

Speaker 2 (01:09:45):
And I would argue that you got to show.

Speaker 1 (01:09:47):
I know yeah, I'm trying.
I got a podcast.
You know I I'm trying.
I got a little bit going.
You know I'm trying to do likepublic speaking, though, too, I
want to get out into that realmtoo.

Speaker 2 (01:09:57):
Dude, I was listening to you at the beginning of this
podcast and that's all I washearing like this motherfucker
would be a public speaker.
I thought you know, I justenvisioned you talking to like a
thousand people.
Like that's the kind of energyyou gave off when the show.
That's the kind of energy yougave off when the shit first
started.

Speaker 1 (01:10:14):
Like I am.
I appreciate that I gotta.
I've actually been talking tomy dad because he's a.
He used to be a promoter.
He promoted my family promotedchristian rock concerts for like
20 years.
Um, so he, he's a hell of apromoter.
So I, uh, my mom and him and Isat down one night and she's

(01:10:35):
like you should promote your son.
And I'm like, yeah, I'm tryingto do the public speaking, so
we're gonna work on Like ascript, we're gonna work on
something.
Uh, I gotta, I gotta startgetting out there.
I gotta do more than just thepodcast and write a book.
You know, so would you ever?

Speaker 2 (01:10:52):
would you ever come out to Lansing to speak upon
your story about?

Speaker 1 (01:10:54):
addiction.
Yeah, I'll go anywhere, man.

Speaker 2 (01:10:58):
I think.
I think that should be yourfirst one.
I've got a friend who's also anex addict and he's a part of
this organization and he speakspublicly.
But Hearing anyone's story ishelpful you know, I'm down to.

Speaker 1 (01:11:14):
I mean, I'm not, no, I'm down to do some shit like
that.
I just need to get my foot inthe door and I've actually told
my story like a hundred times.
I mean, now that I think aboutit, the two podcasts that I
guess spoke on they asked meabout my story all the time.

Speaker 2 (01:11:28):
So, um, how long does it take you to tell your story?
Just curious.

Speaker 1 (01:11:35):
I mean, I can make it as short or long as possible.
That's the thing I don't wantto say.
Like you can really make it.

Speaker 2 (01:11:42):
Yeah, I could man.

Speaker 1 (01:11:43):
I mean, I know it's like you want to make it like a
half hour or 45 minutes, orsometimes you even want to make
it like 15 minutes.
That's why that's the shit thatI haven't worked on yet is like
I need to come up with acondensed version for shorter
performances and then I need tocome up with a longer one for
longer ones you know, we're surean adaptive Story for any

(01:12:03):
situation, really, even like aone-liner, like yo, I had some
with this shit Right, there'ssome big gas right here.
I'll hit you with five minutesof me telling you you can chase
your dreams because I fucked mylife up.

Speaker 2 (01:12:15):
Change the motherfucker life in five
minutes.
Whoa, five minutes, whoa.
That's big right there, and youmight even got in them on the
first 30 seconds and then youjust listen in for the rest of
like.

Speaker 1 (01:12:25):
They hear me like for 30 seconds to like this guy,
this guy right here.

Speaker 2 (01:12:32):
I've heard shit like that where I'm I know like
Instantly, like yeah this manknows what he's talking about.
Yeah, that's what I felt when Iwas you started talking and
then I'm like yo, what's my fuckcoming on like he's a public
speaker and shit like that.

Speaker 1 (01:12:49):
Yeah, I appreciate.
You know it's weird because,like when I asked my brother to
come with me to your show too,I'm like, yeah, you want to come
to a rap show?
He goes, yeah, who we see?
And I'm like you know, it's mybuddy from college.
And then we're in the car, likedriving somewhere, and I put
like Leaves of memories uh, thefirst song on that.

(01:13:09):
And he's like and then itfinished playing and he goes
Damn, that was lit.
Like yeah, you know what he'stalking about, so yeah, we, I
think we listen to the leaves ofmemories album the whole way
down to your show too.

Speaker 2 (01:13:26):
See, now you guys know how to set the mood.
Yeah you know, setting it up,oh of course.
Let's dive into this guy beforewe go see him live.

Speaker 1 (01:13:34):
That's, that's extra and on the way back, goddamn.

Speaker 2 (01:13:38):
That's crazy.
The post Like See, I'm thattype of guy where I like to like
dive into the whole thing, makeit a thing like you guys did.
You listen to me before theshow and after the show, like
it's like some people aresurface level Fans.

(01:14:00):
I guess.

Speaker 1 (01:14:01):
I, I will.
I will say that my memory andthis, this goes for all the rap
I've listened to like my memoryis really bad with names of
songs, because I'll literallyjust play discographies of like
artists and I'll just let thefucking songs go.
Right, so I can.
Yeah, so I could just studylike rhymes, cadence and all
that shit like.

Speaker 2 (01:14:21):
I don't really want to get.

Speaker 1 (01:14:22):
Like, of course there's, like you know, the song
I've listened to like a milliontimes by gangsta, which is like
above the clouds, like I'llname some.
Yeah, everyone knows that right, you know.
But like generically orgenerally speaking, when I like
play rap it's From front to backand I'm not like looking at the
name of the song, I'm just likelistening to the vibe of the

(01:14:43):
song, like the story the album'strying to tell you know, yeah,
um.

Speaker 2 (01:14:49):
Sure.

Speaker 1 (01:14:50):
Yeah.
But after we listen to it hegoes damn, he fucking spit.
I'm like hell, yeah, he'sfucking spit.

Speaker 2 (01:14:57):
Yo, that's what's up, man.
That's, that's love, man.

Speaker 1 (01:14:59):
But like you were like you were saying though,
when you heard me talk, or likewhen you hear somebody, you're
like man, this guy's got it.
Or like that.
Like when we listen to yoursong, my brother was like this
guy's fucking got it, you knowyeah, see, and, and no one's
gonna lie to you, just don't.

Speaker 2 (01:15:14):
Just I hope people don't go out of the way to give
gas, because that's just weird.
But me personally, like I, I'mnot gonna say anything rather
than gas you up.
So any gas I give is completelywarranted.
Know that I mean.

Speaker 1 (01:15:31):
I wouldn't just do it , to do it like um, yeah, I gas
up the homies because you put, Isurround myself with people who
put in the work.
You know like, I don't thinkthat we met by like Chance or
anything.
I forgot who.
I forgot who, like introducedus to each other.

Speaker 2 (01:15:49):
I think it was.
Yo, I want to say was disco,was it not disco?
Who's disco, you know?
Was it not even fucking?
I thought it was Skyler.
Was it Scotland Perkins, youknow?
Scotland, yeah, yo, okay, meand Scotland, we can, me and
Scotland are still friends tothis day.
Nice, that's crazy.

(01:16:11):
That's crazy that it wasScotland.

Speaker 1 (01:16:12):
Yeah, I remember because we were just talking in
the common room and he goes oh,I'm gonna go upstairs and we're
gonna hang out with some people.
Oh, they do music and shit too,and that's when I fucking met
you.
Yeah, and I'm like no shit.

Speaker 2 (01:16:26):
Oh dog, looking back on shit like that, like I used
to be in scholars room he'd havea M audio mic, he was recording
on Reaper and like it was themost dingy, motherfucking music
shit of all time, but like thatwas the only way I could like
kick it with cats who were inthe music Right Fucking mattress

(01:16:47):
for the sound.

Speaker 1 (01:16:50):
It was.
The treatment was like amattress.

Speaker 2 (01:16:54):
Like was on some janky shit and I'm just like
this is back then.
Today, if I walked in there,I'd be like yo, let's get the
fuck out of here.
But back then.
Yo, this is now.

Speaker 1 (01:17:08):
If you see that you're like these cats ain't
serious, you know.

Speaker 2 (01:17:10):
But at the start, you're like this is seriously
happening.
Yo, I was like this is thedopest shit of all time and you
can play guitar and all that,and I was just like yo this is
gas.
This is no good.

Speaker 1 (01:17:28):
I was taking guitar lessons a little bit this year,
and last year I got to startgetting back on that too.
Yeah, it's always nice learningan instrument.
It's tough though.

Speaker 2 (01:17:40):
Dude.
That's why I got respect forpeople.
Who makes master engineerproduce the entire record?
Like dividing your attention tobe a master of all trades yeah,
being that's a full like.
I personally can't do that.
I'm still focusing on beinglike a master writer.

(01:18:00):
If I took time to produce, Iknow, I just know I couldn't
juggle the two of them andthat's why Kanye West and guys
like that are fucking legends.

Speaker 1 (01:18:09):
They can do it all fucked, like I didn't even
realize that Miss mixing, and atthe start I didn't even realize
like mixing and mastering weretwo different things.
And then producing.
So I'm like, oh, I'm going tomake the beats and then they're
like well, after you make them,someone's got to mix them to
make them sound good.
And after you mix them to makethem sound good, then somebody
masters them to make them soundgood.
And I'm like this over myfucking head, dude, I just like

(01:18:32):
putting like samples togetherwith drums and shit, you know.

Speaker 2 (01:18:36):
That's when it becomes.
You realize that he kind ofturns you off a little bit, that
there's all this shit.
I just want to make the shit,bro.
I don't give a fuck about allthat, right, and that's why I
hired somebody to master thosesongs that I put out.

Speaker 1 (01:18:48):
I'm like I ain't fucking with this man.

Speaker 2 (01:18:51):
Of course I don't fuck with nothing, but I
outsource everything but thefucking rocks.
I'm not doing nothing else, theonly thing I record, but I
outsource the mix Right.
So there was a time where Iused to pull up to the studio
and record there.
But then I was like I'll buyyour equipment, record in the,
in the, in the comfort of myhome, and do a thousand takes

(01:19:13):
without being pressed about thetime Right, and I'll bring it to
your studio you can mix it.
So that's the only yeah, it'seasier that way though.

Speaker 1 (01:19:23):
Yeah, yeah, I got a couple.
You know, I don't know if I wasgoing to try and make like.
I wasn't going to try and makelike rap, but you know, I still
do practice like freestyling andsinging and shit, and I do
still like write my rhymes, youknow, but I'm always rapping a
lo-fi and shit.
You know, like my shit ain'thype.

Speaker 2 (01:19:44):
I remember the last song you showed me is pretty
dope.
It might have been a year and ahalf ago, yeah that's you know
I uh, I tried putting some shittogether.

Speaker 1 (01:19:53):
I like freestyling more than like writing an actual
song, though you know like ifyou put on some like jazzy beats
and shit, like I'll just spit.
I don't really care aboutwriting.

Speaker 2 (01:20:04):
Dude, this is where I get into like fights, because
and this is nothing is I'mactually not that pressed, but
like I no longer find joy infreestyling and that's just
because of my mission.
Like freestyling is a waste oftime for someone who is main

(01:20:26):
intention is to put out a recordand like.

Speaker 1 (01:20:29):
I understand, I understand.

Speaker 2 (01:20:29):
But then I've got a bunch of friends, yeah, and I'm
like I'm just here for myfriends to be under.
They think I'm like being likea buzzkill.
I'm like, yo, this isn't fun.
We could be actually producinga record putting the shit out,
not just like we just did allthat and nothing, that there's
nothing, nothing to gain from itexcept pure enjoyment, which I

(01:20:51):
would derive more enjoyment byactually releasing a finished
product Totally.
But the other reason I look atfreestyling is something.

Speaker 1 (01:20:59):
Well, I just do it for fun.
Like you said, it's for fun.
I also like view it as likewell, maybe I'll learn to rhyme
things differently, just likefor no fucking reason, or like a
cadence, or like I don't know.
Like I always feel like, evenif you do freestyle, you're
getting like better at shitwithout even realizing it.

(01:21:19):
But for somebody who's on an MO, like you, to like put out the
records and shit like that, likethat takes way more planning
than you just sitting aroundspitting for two hours, you know
.

Speaker 2 (01:21:30):
And it's not just that, it's I, I've, I've
freestyle.
I can even say what a fact morethan you know, forget God yeah.
Yeah, so it's, it's.
It's weird for people to belike dude, this is fun.
Dude, I've freestyled forthousands of hours since I was
like 10.
Right, this is no longer likefun.

(01:21:51):
It was so much fun, I've doneit more than you could even
imagine.
But then they're like nah, comeon, let's do this shit.
I'm like, bro, I spent anentire nice freestyle with the
homies.
Nice, yeah, so it's like.
Kyp.
Know your personnel, this thingthat you derive enjoyment from
you.
You have to understand that.

(01:22:12):
It no longer gives me pleasure,right, and the only reason is
because I've done it that much.

Speaker 1 (01:22:20):
Yeah, no, I feel that .
So I mean that that's kind ofhow we I reached that point with
like glue I'm loving too or,like you know, using flow, art
and shit like that.
I'm like dude, I literallywalked around with my gloves for
years.
You know, I still glove undermy table sometimes if I'm
fidgeting and shit.
But you know the shit ain't likelike you said.

(01:22:41):
It ain't like super fun anymore.
I'm trying to direct my timetowards actually producing like
content in terms of like I wantto write, you know.
So yeah, I understand it's not.
If you wanted to just be afucking freestyler and have
someone follow you around with aphone, you'd be.
What's that guy's name?

Speaker 2 (01:23:03):
Harry Mack.

Speaker 1 (01:23:04):
I'll be fucking yeah and he makes the thing out of it
.
You know he's dope and he's bad.

Speaker 2 (01:23:09):
Yeah, but that's his.
That's all he does.
That's, that's yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:23:12):
And that's not you, though.
You're trying to do somethingdifferent.
That's why you know I don'tknow why the and he's a he's
fucking crazy.

Speaker 2 (01:23:21):
That's it's nuts Best of ever heard, best of ever
heard, without a doubt.
You think, yeah, in the aspectof freestyle and making shit
coherently, yeah, I would neverfreestyle with Harry Mack in
front of people, because I knowthat you draw, take visual cues

(01:23:43):
way better than me.
But if we're talking about like, put on a, b and see who goes
harder, I'll go and see an inbattle and not even be scared
that I'll come out on top.
But he's really good at that.
You know that chicken, the bluething and the shit with the red
, that and like yo, you got that?

Speaker 1 (01:24:02):
Yeah he's.
He's crazy at that shit, forsure.

Speaker 2 (01:24:05):
But I'll just say some random shit on some slick
shit Right Put on a instrumentalthat they ain't not, it's a
wrap.
So like without it.

Speaker 1 (01:24:15):
So you're saying, like the homies, like
freestyling more than just likegoing and actually putting in
work on the albums and shit,right, yeah, and it's annoying,
but I still do it anyway, justbecause I'd be a bus killed to
be like yo this is retarded.

Speaker 2 (01:24:33):
Actually I still do that anyway.

Speaker 1 (01:24:35):
Yeah, I mean yeah, what are you going to do, though
I mean, sometimes you got to doI do, sometimes you got to do
things you're not like totallyfond of, you know.

Speaker 2 (01:24:45):
But it would be dope if they came over to this side
and, you know, put a littleintention behind it and drop the
right.
But as I do, I jam with themjust for the fuck of it.
I derive no pleasure, no valuecomes from it, but I do it
because we're homies.
Right, Come over to this item.

(01:25:06):
Drop that record for real.

Speaker 1 (01:25:09):
Didn't you say you're going to move to?
Do you think that you're evergoing to move out of Lansing for
your, your job?
And when I say your job or yourdream, like rapping, you know
yeah, I'm moving out of Lansingin 2025.

Speaker 2 (01:25:24):
There you go.
Where are you going?
No-transcript Yo, I'm actuallynot even gonna think about it,
because at that point I'll havea lot of money saved to where I
could just Be like yo, I'm outof here, you go.
Nice, financially, I'mrestricted now to I'm not a big
planner.
To I'm playing shit.
The fact you make a plan withme More than 24 hours in advance

(01:25:46):
, it's not Said yes, but it'sfirst service not happening,
right.
I Will just be like yeah,fucking, I'm up.
I feel that.

Speaker 1 (01:25:58):
Yeah, yeah, I got a.
I got a plan for I Think it'sgonna be another year.
I had already told my mom, too,that I'm not gonna be staying
at the bookkeeping companyforever.
I already told her that I'mgonna be a full-time writer,
host and podcast host and publicspeaker.
So she already knows this goinginto it because technically, I

(01:26:18):
run the business with her, youknow.
Yeah, I just told her it'sprobably gonna be a year or two
and then I'm gone.

Speaker 2 (01:26:24):
So You're in my position now.
I used to use it as a crutch.
Like yo, I don't want to leavemy mom stranded and
single-handed running this shit.
We know they got it, but wealso know that you're doing the
majority of the work and that itwill be more difficult without
your right, but my, they wouldrather see us chase our dreams,
though.

Speaker 1 (01:26:45):
Yeah yeah, and, and I , I used to use a crush, though,
like I can't right, I mean, andI was more worried because I
got student loans and I gotbills and shit and I'm like I
got, you know it's.
It's not a bad job, you know,and it's.
You know it's with my mom, youknow, lover to death and shit,
like you said.
You know kind of use it as acrutch, but there's only so much

(01:27:07):
.
It's.
Yeah, it's comfortable, but youknow I've reached a point now,
just like you said, you know,2025 is your year, wherever
you're gonna fucking do it.
You know, and I already know,that I'm gonna dip out and chase
this dream.
So right now, I just need toget a little nest egg to sit
under before I do some shit likethat, you know.

Speaker 2 (01:27:26):
Yeah, what's funny is that Technically you can do
whatever you want to do anywhere, but location is actually
everything.
The people you meet, the thefunk suede of fucking air.

Speaker 1 (01:27:37):
Yeah, so we'll actually be moving further from
the city, so I don't know ifwe're gonna live in Illinois
anymore.
I need like more nature to be.
You know, it's like where mycreativity is.
I derive a lot of it fromNature, peace and quiet and
stuff.
If I'm gonna like write, youknow I don't mind going, I do.

(01:28:01):
Yeah, yeah, we like camping andhiking.
Yeah, yeah, boy.
Ah, not anymore.
My dad, my dad, hates the factthat I don't like fishing
anymore.
How the fuck you stop likingfish, bro, dude?
My dad and my uncle go hard.
They'll be out on the boat forlike 10 hours.

(01:28:22):
I'm like you got to take me in.
This is Done, dude.

Speaker 2 (01:28:27):
Don't do, don't take me, please, yeah but that
doesn't mean you dislike fishing, maybe with them, because they
you're out there all day.

Speaker 1 (01:28:35):
Yeah, you fish for five, three I mean, like when we
went up for the fourth of July,I fish for like two hours.
You know like I don't mindcatching fish, you know, it's
just like sometimes there's someother shit I could be doing,
you know.

Speaker 2 (01:28:47):
Yo, and that that is actually the crazy thing about
life Got your I live and die forfishing, and then you live and
die for like any interest, andand then you could build a whole
friend group around That'll.
That'll, that'll make the pointof cutting off right, not with
ill will, but just like yo,you're too into that thing that

(01:29:09):
I'm not into.
I'm gonna this, right, actually, you will just like not
associate it, right like yeah,that's.

Speaker 1 (01:29:17):
Yeah.
I still got some homies likethat that are like that.
That I obviously still, likeyou know, check up on every once
in a while.
But, like you said, like, sosometimes you just go like that,
you know.

Speaker 2 (01:29:30):
You got writer friend .
They've become mad close with,now that you're here, an author.

Speaker 1 (01:29:36):
No, bro, I got.
I got a few podcast friendsthat I hit on Instagram and shit
I work cuz so you don't.

Speaker 2 (01:29:47):
You don't feel lonely like not having a bouncing
board with people in theindustry.

Speaker 1 (01:29:52):
Mmm.
No, I well, I bounce ideas offof Lisa, I bounce ideas off of
my brother, my you know, bounceideas off of everybody in my
life.

Speaker 2 (01:30:03):
Regardless if they're a writer or not, you know.

Speaker 1 (01:30:07):
Cuz they know, I mean I just Know, but the creator
knows.
I mean it's different with rap,though.
You're like, if you, if youwraps a little different,
because you're like, let mebounce these bars off of you and
you don't understand rap at all, they'll just be like, yeah,

(01:30:28):
that sounded really nice, youknow, but they don't know what
to say to that.
You know, with, with, when I'mwriting philosophy or like
anything self-help like, and Itry and bounce an idea off of
someone in my life, they'llactually Cuz I'm trying to write
something that's like a littlelike, you know it's philosophy
or self-help, it's like kind ofrelevant.
You know, if you're trying tobounce off like rhymes and raps

(01:30:51):
and shit off of people thatdon't understand it, like, I
understand where you're actually, I actually started doing that,
though for the reason that youthink it's different is the
common consumer is who haveobviously that's the attention.

Speaker 2 (01:31:05):
Okay so if the layperson doesn't like what the
fuck I'm saying, there has to bea reason for it.
That doesn't mean that it isn'ttechnically dope what I'm doing
, but they're like you know what?
That just isn't aestheticallyor sonically right.
Yeah, and I Just recentlystarted taking that in
consideration Because, like,yeah, I want something that's

(01:31:29):
like yo.
Everyone thinks that's sick,even even, even the, even the
ill-romb riders.
So once you got the a okay frommethod man, you got the a okay
from Joe smoke pre-med.
Now you've got just universal.

Speaker 1 (01:31:46):
Yeah, I didn't think about it.
Well, I did think about it thatway, but you just said the
reason why you think it wouldhave been different.
So did you just start doingthis, like recently then?

Speaker 2 (01:31:55):
Yeah, like producers, I'll be like yo, if anywhere in
the bar it sounds off, and thisis someone who's never written
a rhyme, right I'll.
I'll be like alright, and thenafter I'll be like you know what
they're right.
I could take out a couplesyllables there and it flow
better.
Right before I be oh, my way,or the highway, I'm like no, bro
, let's, yeah, that's not howyou like.

Speaker 1 (01:32:17):
Grow, though, or like you know.
Art's got to change with you,and yeah, if you're too strict
about some shit, then it's Likeyou said.
It's not gonna be pleasing toeverybody.
You know, I'm not trying towrite something that's only for
a select few of really high brow, like you know, nose in the air
, fucking snooty, patootiepeople, right.

Speaker 2 (01:32:40):
I was, I was a little .

Speaker 1 (01:32:41):
I was a little bit, especially when you're writing
philosophy, because it's likeI'm gonna write some fucking
super intelligent dope shit, youknow.

Speaker 2 (01:32:49):
What's wrong with that, though?
This to seek the validation ofthose on the upper echelon.

Speaker 1 (01:32:55):
No, there's nothing wrong with it, but it's also
like I'm trying to help morepeople than that.

Speaker 2 (01:33:00):
You know I'm so you dumb it sometimes, yeah, not all
you could argue like not pure,you're like doing the doing it.

Speaker 1 (01:33:09):
Philosophy in itself a disservice by like Dominate if
I was just gonna write astraight fucking philosophy book
then I wouldn't give a shit,you know.
But if you're right, so here'sthe problem.
I actually like mix myphilosophy with myself help all
the time.
Like the book I wrote issupposed to be a motivational,
self-help philosophy book, youknow.

(01:33:30):
But I've had family members andother people say, you know, it
was a little difficult to readat some points and I'm like I
get it.
You know, sometimes I get alittle archaic or subjective,
you know.

Speaker 2 (01:33:42):
In what way was it difficult to read?
Because I I didn't find itdifficult to read.
Well, there there's notinteresting, though, because
that that's another sometimes itgets a little.

Speaker 1 (01:33:54):
You know you.
You wrap you right.
You know I get a little poetic.
Sometimes I'd use work.

Speaker 2 (01:33:59):
Yeah, yeah so that's not.

Speaker 1 (01:34:02):
Everybody can read shit like that, you know.
You know that's all right.
I put the book out for mereally so Always right, so but.
I think that I was gonna saylike dumb it down, like I
wouldn't consider it dumbing itdown for a self-help book or

(01:34:22):
something, because you aretrying to appeal to a Wider
audience, right, you know.
But if, like I said, if I'mgonna write some fucking shit
for the upper echelon ofPhilosophy, like I'm gonna make
it pretty difficult, then youknow, I.

Speaker 2 (01:34:37):
Do see what you're saying.
Like you set out the purpose ofwhat you're trying to write and
if you're, your goal is to bepeer-edited by, like Socrates,
it's not to help, it's to belike Profound, you know I,
accessible, digestible.

Speaker 1 (01:34:54):
It's just a different .
You know a different method andstuff, you know.

Speaker 2 (01:34:59):
That is why, like I'm a big fan of Charles Bukowski,
right?
Oh yeah, cuz he does you canwrite just like, without all
that extra shit, but it's stillprofile, it's still like.

Speaker 1 (01:35:11):
Yeah, I see a lot of his quotes and and stuff.
Do you, does he have like abook out?

Speaker 2 (01:35:20):
Oh, he's dead, but I've got all his books back,
right.

Speaker 1 (01:35:23):
I was gonna say what would you recommend for somebody
to read for the further?
First Charles Bukowski book.

Speaker 2 (01:35:31):
I Like the, the post office.
You can really you can't gowrong anywhere, really for sure.
You know his.
His writing is basically yourlife overindulgence and just
like Having a good old timewhile trying to be a dope writer
.
All this shit is literally hislife, but like told in like an

(01:35:51):
ill-ass story format.

Speaker 1 (01:35:53):
All right, so you know, yeah, I mean, like I said,
like some of that shit comes upon the algorithm for my
Instagram, like his quotes andstuff, so I just haven't like
dove into him, you know.

Speaker 2 (01:36:05):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:36:10):
Any from Detroit, from the D or.

Speaker 2 (01:36:14):
No, that's, that's.
I'm thinking of Elmore LeonardCharles.
I don't know where Charles isfrom, but yeah, you know.
Yeah, all right.
Yeah, I know I've gone way pastyour typical it was more than
just catching up.

Speaker 1 (01:36:32):
It was a good conversation, Honestly yeah.
Oh yeah, honestly, like I'malways down to like do more of
these.
You know, if you're everwilling to, I always have
Recurring guests on my podcast,obviously you know.
Yeah, I Gotta go cook for Lisaright now, so Sure yeah, what

(01:36:59):
the fuck came where?

Speaker 2 (01:37:00):
I use in the record this because I need that.
Is it a attachable?

Speaker 1 (01:37:04):
no, this is my phone.

Speaker 2 (01:37:09):
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:37:11):
So it's, and I, the guy who I did my first guest
speaking with my, with hispodcast, who who got me on his
joint I Asked him the samefucking question because I was
using a webcam and he goes I'mjust using my phone, I'm like a
fuck out here, all right, sothere's an LH, that's got.
Yeah, there's an app calledCamo.
Camo.

(01:37:31):
It's an app for your phone andon your computer, hook it up
with a with a cord but abing-but-a-boom.
There you go.

Speaker 2 (01:37:41):
So, but I could have downloaded that Riverside on my
phone and still done it throughthat?

Speaker 1 (01:37:46):
Yeah, you could have did that too.
Yeah, okay.

Speaker 2 (01:37:49):
I'm over here 720p.
You're in fucking a cave.
That's nice.

Speaker 1 (01:37:54):
I think it records in 720, because I don't choose the
4k setting because it gets alittle laggy then, you know.
But Looks good, you know.

Speaker 2 (01:38:05):
No doubt, man Yo, it's a good time in a.
I hope we make a good dinner,hey, I appreciate it.

Speaker 1 (01:38:12):
I think I'm gonna cook some steak tonight, so yeah
.
I appreciate you coming onHaving a good ass conversation.
Honestly.
Next time you tore, me and mybrother gonna be there for you.
You already know what's good.

Speaker 2 (01:38:27):
So I'm gonna get in spring baby, march, march and a
let's fucking go man.

Speaker 1 (01:38:31):
Hell yeah, and yeah, just give me a heads up whenever
you come back into the shy.
I'll try and make some.
Yeah, I'll try and make a moveto come out.
We can shoot some some pool cuz.

Speaker 2 (01:38:43):
Yeah, I do that shit, yeah I appreciate it and I like
how we didn't.
We didn't miss a beat picked uplike it was old days, just like
that.

Speaker 1 (01:38:50):
I mean, we talked a lot.
We talked a lot about, you know, some homies do this and that,
or things change over time, man,but like you said, we, you know
, we're still homies.
I still consider you a goodfriend.
I'm always checking up on you,man.
I always want to see you goodpeople succeed.
That's the thing.
Like was how yeah brother?
I, guys, I love you the way weleave our upbeat acting content

(01:39:17):
into the Poly us in U obvious.

All Episodes

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

Stuff You Should Know

Dateline NBC

On Purpose with Jay Shetty

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}KWAJ: Insights on Creativity and Chasing Dreams

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

.css-r6mb8g{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:1;overflow:hidden;}Stuff You Should Know

Dateline NBC

On Purpose with Jay Shetty

All Episodes

KWAJ: Insights on Creativity and Chasing Dreams

Stuff You Should Know