June 16, 2025 • 58 mins
#BeAGoodFriend and check out episode #139 of #FeeneyTalksWithFriends featuring Susan Averna.
It was great to talk with my good #friend, Susan!
Susan is an author, coach, college professor, public speaker, counselor and psychologist.
We talked about:
Explaining what “Mental Health” to 3rd Grader (minute 1)
Feeney’s reflection after school drop off (minute 3)
Her inspiration to study psychology (minute 4.30)
Susan’s book, F.A.B.R.I.C (minute 7.30)
Susan’s book, Witness and Wonder (minute 13)
Controlling your nonverbals (minute 15)
What kids need (minute 20)
Social Emotional Learning (minute 22)
PBiS (minute 24)
“The absence of a reward is the punishment” (minute 27)
F.A.I.L. = First Attempt In Learning (minute 30)
Trauma (minute 32)
Procedural learning - A story about Roseanne (minute 35)
Websites with Bellu Jean Creative (minute 41)
Coaching cheerleading at Trinity College (minute 43)
The JCC (minute 45)
Susan’s husband, Jason is a good #friend (minute 51)
Susan’s favorite teacher (minute 53)
Notre Dame at Boston College football game (minute 55)
Closing remarks (minute 58)
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
All right, all right.
Feeney talks with friends.
Episode 139 with my good friend Susan.
How are you doing, Susan?
I'm great.Thank you for having me. Doctor.
Ivana. Yeah. Doc?
What's up doc?
All kinds of things.
I can't wait to talk about it. Yeah.Susan, I'm so happy to talk with you.
I've known you for so long.
You're an author. You're a psychologist.
You're, coach, you're a mom, a wife.
(00:23):
You are a school counselor.
I mean, we have so much to talk about.
Where do you want to start?And a college professor.
And a college professor. Yeah,I missed one.
That's all right, then.
A lot of things.
Yeah, we can start wherever you like.
No. It's just so great for you to be here.
It's. We're filming in May.
May is mental health month.
So it's very importantto talk about mental health.
(00:43):
As my last podcast guest, if you were toexplain mental health to a third grader,
how would you go about explaining mentalhealth to a third grader?
I think about mental health
as being able to enjoy your life,
and so having the skillsto be able to respond to
whatever's happening around you and adaptto whatever's happening around you.
(01:07):
And we could talk about this,but in the books that I've written
and in the work that I do with young kidsas well as adolescents, young adults,
that's pretty much the crux of it, ishelping to provide them with those skills
so that they can meetwhatever challenges they meet, and that is
that is what good mental healthlooks like. Good, a good life.
I find it, circumstantial.
(01:29):
I'm thinking about what just happened.
I drop off,I drop off my daughters every day.
Economy. It goes smooth. We talk.
It's like, our bond time.
But there was a food truck back then.
So we were paused herewhere we usually drop off over here.
Okay, so they're like rush now.
So now it's like,all right, let's get out here.
(01:49):
Yeah. So they rush to get out.
Our line starts to form,and when my daughter's golf bag falls out.
So now it's like, so how would someone help us?
Circumstantial. Like,everything was great.
Yeah, but that already. Now
word is dysregulated. Yes.
We just read you last Thursday.
What would be some advice?
(02:10):
I'm like, just get on the sidewalk.
Everything will be fine. Yeah.
Or should I have paused and just waitedfor the truck to do its thing
and then park in our usual spotor letting them out?
So I had so much reflection on my way backafter dropping them off.
I mean, we talked about it.
It's like we rushed the decision right?
So what what are your thoughts on that?
(02:31):
First of all,I love that you reflected on that.
Okay. That's that's so key.
There's no one right decision there.
And it's such a split second decisionanyway.
Like, how could you know
what of what could have come fromany given, you know, route you took there.
But, you staying calm is key.
So for me, the adult in the situationwhere that's a parent,
(02:53):
the teacher,the coach, you can only control you.
Yeah. So you could say,what should I have done for them?
But really you.
If you're staying regulated,that's going to go so far
toward keeping them regulatedor at least modeling what it could be
if they're not able to do itin that moment.
And so, yeah, I mean, you could havewaited, you could have done what you did,
but ultimatelyyou're also helping them to reflect.
(03:16):
So maybe even talking about it
later is is kind of normalizingthis idea that, hey, you know what?
Like things happen, we react.
Sometimes it works out,sometimes it doesn't.
And we can think aboutmaybe how to do it differently next time.
Yeah.
But it's all about becoming more
responsive to what's happeningrather than reactive. Yep.
But also recognizing our humanity.
(03:38):
And we're going to react,you know, we're just going to
we're going to have those momentsand that's okay. Okay.
All right. All right. Thanks.
So you handled that well.And I know love the reflection.
Now the whole time I'm like,maybe I should have just waited.
I did kind of say get on the sidewalk
like, well, you know,we went on the other side of the car
because the truck was
there, but then the carsthat were behind us were trying to go.
(04:00):
So then it got a little.
And sometimes you need to do that.
And it was a safety thing, like reallygive them that direction because who knows
if they had stepped a different way,maybe a car would have come around.
So but you know, at afterwardswhen everything's calmed down
and everyone'skind of gotten back into regular,
you can say, yeah, oh, sorry,I yelled there.
I, you know, I was nervousthat, yeah, you were going to get hurt.
Okay.I want you to acknowledge that. Yeah.
(04:23):
That it's great.
See? Well, counseling. So.
Yes. Exactly how much do I owe you?
Oh, this one's pro bono.
Deal? Deal. So how long?
What what inspiredyou to get into psychology?
Because you have so many degreesand went to so many schools.
And so what was the inspiration?
I don't want to speakfor every psychologist out there,
but I think that a lot of us get into itto try to figure ourselves out bigger.
(04:45):
Our families out.I mean, everybody has their stuff.
Nobody goes through this life withoutsome, you know, challenges, craziness.
And for me, you know,I also just loved it.
I went to I went to my undergrad thinkingI was going to be a math
major, really having no ideawhat I was going to do with that.
But I just loved mathand I was good at it.
And so that's how Ithat was the mindset I had going in.
(05:06):
Didn't know a thing about psychology,had never had any kind of intro course
or anything.
And then I took an intro course just tofulfill a requirement, and I was hooked.
I loved it and immediately declaredthe major and but again, it was for me.
And we can talk about this if you like.
Because I'm a big fan of first generationcollege students, I am one,
I support them, I am on the boardwhere I went to college to support them,
(05:30):
and I actually have just recently,joined a work group at Trinity too.
But I had no idea.
I didn't have this sort of long term plan.
It was sort of get the degree now what?
And, so I did finish the degree.
And one thing I knew,I thought I wanted to be a teacher.
Yeah.
Just because I
had always admired my teachers and was sothey were so impactful for me.
(05:54):
And I also loved coaching
because I had coached, as a high school student.
I'd coached little rec teams.
And so I thought, I want to teachand I want to coach,
and that's going to be great life.
I did do an internship in teaching.
I think it was fourthgrade students that I think. Nope.
And that for me, it was the chaos of it.
(06:14):
And I thought, okay.
At the same time, I was diving deeperinto more of the therapeutic side of,
of psychology.
And I thought I would liketo be a counselor or a therapist.
Nice.
And so I went the school counselor route.
Okay. But that was the next degree.
And you can.
We can I can tell you howI kept going to connections.
(06:36):
First generation college.
And I at southern studied sociology major.
Psychology minor.
So high, was my favorite class,and my daughters are taking it.
O'Connor. And we always talk about it.
It's a it's a very interesting, subjecthow the brain works.
And decisions that are made.
And,
they just came homeand taught me something, too.
(06:57):
It's like she did it to me, too.Like she's sitting on the couch.
She asked a really nice question, like,oh, can you give me a hug?
Yeah.
Then can you go get me my backpackin the front in the in the library?
Yeah. So she didn't have to get upthe couch. Yep.
And that's a trick you asked too. Yes.
You ask a easy yes question.
There are more likely to say yes the next.
That's fascinating. Yeah.
(07:18):
And then they pulled it on meand it worked. Yeah.
And there's so much neuroscience nowworked into the the major to even their
separate degrees.
But and I've taught a lot of it's,it's really fun stuff.
Yeah. Yeah.
So now I'm so excited.
Yeah. Mental health month.
We're happy to talk with my friend Susan.
She's an author.
This is episode 139 I fabric.
(07:41):
I was very interested in this one.
You said it's good for coaches.
I wrote it for coaches.
But it's really about leadershipand and team culture.
So, I wrote it.
I had an idea to write this book about 15years ago, and I didn't for a very well.
I had a newborn and a toddlerand other things going on multiple jobs,
(08:02):
so I didn't do it at that point.
I ended up writing the other one first,but I came back around to it last year,
and I, I really thought there was a needfor some support for coach development
because it's like just like teachingand sometimes
even moreso you have those deep relationships.
You have so much of an impactand an influence positively or negatively.
(08:23):
Right. And there's very little
support.
I mean, you could have great mentors,but in sort of like a,
you know, training for coaches, it'snot there.
It is the the athleticism of the sport,but not in more of the relational aspects.
And so that's what I wanted to do.
And I pulledfrom a variety of disciplines.
(08:43):
So I pulled from developmental psychology,clinical psychology,
health psychology, sportspsychology and neuroscience.
And I wanted to take all of that
and just boil it downlike what are the core elements.
So does it need to be complicated?
What are the key pieces that needto be there and what do they look like?
And most importantly, how is it applied?
Like what does this look like in practice?
(09:04):
What does this look like day to day,moment to moment, as you're relating
to these kids or or adultsif you're coaching adults.
And so that's what it is.
I fabric is an acronym.
So the core, the six core elements.
First thing I thought about I'm. Like,wow, I was like average.
So I don't know if that's a great titlebecause
now people search for it, they get thingson, you know, sewing or whatever.
(09:25):
But it's an acronym and it'sbecause the six core elements were are,
focus, awareness, belonging, repair
for intentionalityand curiosity and compassion.
Those are sort of the keythings that every good leader,
teacher, coach and parent,if you keep those things at the forefront,
(09:47):
you can kind of make your way throughany challenge that comes up.
It's the bedrock,I think, for, optimal development
and wellbeing and mental health.
But it's also the same core piecesthat underlie peak performance.
So you're notyou're not giving up one for the other.
And I think there's a,much more of an awareness
(10:08):
now that you can have great athleteswho perform at a high level without
harm, you know, without,
eroding their physical or mentalwell-being.
Now, is this a, it really reminds me of,like, a college.
It's. It'smeant to be sort of a workbook.
Okay.
In the sense that I tooksome is really. Yes.
(10:31):
It's really nice to read. Yeah.
And then you have reflection questions
after each chapter,which really stood out to me.
So I'm like, is this for a college courseor is it just the reflection I.
Might use it in a course that I'mteaching, but it wasn't intended for that.
But it could be.
What I wanted to do is take again, like,
there's some really complextopics up there.
You could pick up a sports psych book
and it's going to be dense,and they'll be theories
(10:52):
and they'll be models,and that's all great stuff.
But what does that look like
for the average coach tothen go into their practice and use it?
And so what I wanted to do is say, okay,it's very much steeped in research.
In theory,there's none of this is just my thoughts.
It's it's, you know, tried and true.
But then I take stories,you know, anecdotes.
Some are personalto me and some are made up.
(11:15):
Oh. I also interviewed college athletes.
That was one of my favorite pieces,actually.
I, a bunch of athletes across sports,
reflecting on their current athleticism,
but also like their youth experiences.
And so I integratedsome of the quotes from that.
But the reflection and the exercisesare meant to prompt the coach
(11:36):
to just think about, like, yeah,
how is this working for you or notworking for you?
And just it's not prescriptive.
It's not in it's not intendedto tell someone how to coach
because everybody bringstheir own personality and style to it.
But it helps them to think through
the most common challengesthat we see as coaches.
And again, a teacher could read this and,I probably get a lot of it,
(12:00):
a lot out of it as well.
I did noticeI have it right here to the exercise page.
I love that the reflection page, you know,I get that
you always answering questionsat the end of the chapter.
But yeah, to to to actually do somethinglike consider
a belief of a negative expectationthat you have about an athlete.
So well that's a bitI talked a lot about expectations.
(12:20):
And this is so true for teachers.And you could
you probably read the Rosenthaland Jacobsen study from the 1960.
You know, that's like a classic right.
Is is kids rise to the expectationyou have or fall to the expectation
you have a and
so we don't want to have our expectationsso high that they can't meet them.
And that's a different problem.
But we do want to keep them high.
And so sometimeswhen you get into a dynamic
(12:42):
with a kid in the classroomor on the field or wherever,
you know, you can start to expect themto behave badly,
you can start to expect themnot to listen or perform or whatever.
And then it becomes a self-fulfillingprophecy.
So what do you have controlover as a coach?
Only you.
Only what you think, only what you say,only what you do.
We really don't control other peopleas much as we may try to.
(13:06):
We have a lot of influence though, so.
But we do that by controlling ourselves.
So you keep the expectations high.
So this is a reflection to say okay,what are you expecting out of this kid.
And and if it's not matchingto what you would want maybe try
try to shift that a little bit,give them the benefit of the doubt
that they can do itand that will come through.
(13:28):
Even if you don't verbalize thatit'll come through in your body language.
It'll come through in the waysin which you're interacting
in those moment to moments,and they'll show up differently.
And then maybe you will show updifferently.
And it's it's that bidirectional language.
Well, that's in this book.
Both of them.Body language I it stood out.
Yeah. So,
(13:49):
your posture, your icon, your breathing.
And so it's oh, this an thisI definitely noticed in this book.
So now there's witness and wonder.
There's a lot of connectionand correlation.
Yeah.
There's certain themes that that crossboth books.
I get into them in different waysand I apply them differently.
But I was it writinga nonfiction is is it?
(14:10):
I find it challenging.
It's challenging.
Bibliography here is pretty,pretty serious.
Well, you know, I am an academic at heart.
And so and I'm very it's very importantto me to give credit where credit's due.
So, you know,it's a lot of it is my original thought
in the way I put it together.
But if I'm going to,
you know, cite research, I'mgoing to show you where that came from.
I'm not just going to say studies showwhich studies show.
(14:32):
I noticed that right away. Yeah.
That's obviously very good.
Yeah.
So you can you could go further
if you're interestedin any particular topic,
you could take it further byjust checking out where I got that from.
But I'm a big fan of learninghow to become more aware of
and control our nonverbals
and how because we communicate so muchmore non-verbally than we do verbally.
(14:55):
And you got to know this as a teacher.Yeah.
They're not hearing you as much as they'rethey're they're taking in all of you.
So if you come in with a with a presence,you're going to get their attention
much faster. They're just yelling.
So my loud my quiet voiceis more effective than my loud.
That's the strategy.
Yeah.
Or I do I rank I do a singing bell.
(15:18):
Ding ding. Stop one. Stopwhat you're doing.
Two eyes on me three.
We take a big breath together.I love that. Breath.
And that gets everyoneback on the same page.
And then sometimes we'll take fivedeep ones together.
Different strategies are do the one, two,three eyes on me.
Yeah.
So you're regulating them.
Come in with a story they love stories,
personal connections so that they'll neverI try to teach them something.
(15:41):
They're not listening.
But if I tell them about my dog Barkleyor me playing basketball, the J.
They're like,yeah, quiet and listen. Yes.
And they're going to get so muchfrom that. Yeah.
And that's the the belonging part of the,of the coaching book is
and I talk I mean the whole other bookis about relationships as well.
But teaching is a relationship.
Coaching is a relationship.
(16:01):
And you you got to start there.
But yeah that, that connection.
Now you also have a businessor a company called witness and one.
Well,when I was doing professional division.
So this book was a culminationof the professional development.
And the, I was working as a school mentalhealth consultant for many years.
I was doing trauma informed stuffbefore it was a thing.
(16:23):
You know, I got trained up in Boston.
I don't know if you know the name Besselvan der Kolk,
but he wrote the book,The Body Keeps the Score.
People know it now in the trauma field.
But I was training with his group in theearly 2000 before he wrote that book.
It was a paper.
And I was very inspired by thatbecause it was a
it was a fairly new wayof looking at a lot of the behaviors
(16:46):
we see in people that we would jumpand give a diagnosis to
without really understanding the etiologyor what what
what was the point, what what waswhat is the behavior serving?
How is that serving the person?
And so that sort of shiftinto understanding
earlytrauma was really eye opening for me,
because that wasn't the wayit was thought of before that.
(17:08):
And so I took a lot of that information
and it was being applied clinically,but it wasn't in schools yet.
Not, you know, everywhere.
And probablysomebody was doing it somewhere,
but it wasn't kind of the thing.
And then when I moved here,I was doing some work with that,
and I don't really promote myself.
(17:29):
I don't, I don't have like a website.
I don't say, hey, I do this, hire me.
It's more like I give a talk or workshopand then I get a referral.
And so for for many years,I was all over the state doing this
kind of work, and sometimes just going in and observing
kids like, oh, you know, this, this,this child's having a hard time.
Would you come into the classroom?
(17:49):
Just give us your thoughts onmaybe how the teacher could,
you know, manage this differently or, and so that
this book was a culmination of that,because what I found out
through pretty early on, actually, iswhen I would do these professional.
And you've sat through a numberof professional development,
I'm sure some are better than others.
(18:09):
And I tried to be engagingby a lot of times
they'll put you in a big auditorium.
And I would say to them,please don't do that.
You're not going to getanything out of this.
This is a small group, deep,intimate conversation.
It should not be mespeaking at 200 people, but whatever.
They would put me in auditoriums a lotand occasionally it would break out after.
(18:32):
But one thing I realized,
I went in with the intent to help to
get the adults,meaning the teachers, the counselors
and other staffto better understand the behavior of kids.
Maybelook at it from a different perspective,
which would give them some insighton where to go from here.
And what I realized is that itdidn't really matter
how well they understood it,because they did understand it.
(18:54):
They would get it.These concepts aren't hard to get.
They would get it.
Light bulb moments. I'd see it.
They'd excitedly talk about it. I got it.
But then I would go in and observeand nothing would change.
And that makes sense because
we, as the adults in the room are humanand we are reactive.
(19:14):
And so when that child starts to actin the way that they act,
we reacteven if we have all that knowledge.
And I'm glad you're doing
the sort of proactive approachof regulating them first, not that,
but you could probably think of instanceswhere like, you're going, you're going to
just snap, you're going to you're goingto go back to that habitual reactivity.
And I thought, okay,I need to work with the adult in the room.
(19:36):
I need to help them to find waysfor their own well-being, actually,
and to reduce their burnout,whether that's a teacher
or a parent or coach,because they can only control them.
So I kind of I switched itI it's still talking about what kids need,
but it's like what can we do as the adult?
So that's what that book is about.
(19:57):
That's why there's so many practices
at the end on how to regulate yourselffrom a notice, from a top.
Down changes at the end. Or bottom up.
So I think of it in terms of top downand bottom up, top down being
those cognitive strategiesand things that you do with
how you think and your mindsetand your expectations and all that.
And then bottom upis working with the body.
(20:17):
So working with the breath,working with your posture, your energy,
things like that.
This is really important all the time.
But it's particularly important in sportswhen I work with athletes.
You're not going to change your mindwith the mind in a stressful moment.
So you're in a game situation, let's say,right, and it's not going your way.
You just missed a really importantfall shot.
(20:39):
I know you're your basketball player.
What happens if you get in your head?
You're not getting out of your headwith your head.
You're not going to use self-talkin that moment, most likely.
Okay, okay.
Maybe if you've practiced itand you have a ritual around it
or something like that,you might be able to,
but you can shift your physiologyreally fast with the breath,
with changing your posture,with sort of things
(21:00):
that are more physical physically,even the way where your your gaze is going
wide or narrow.
These are things that are goingto change your nervous system
that might getyou back in a regulated state.
So the second one you make okay, okay.
So that's that's why I come at itfrom both, perspectives.
I think that all of usare trying our best,
(21:21):
to make it through our daysand to be great in our relationships.
And all of us have the same challengesof being reactive,
having our habits and tendencies.
And it's more about,
can you become aware of what those are
in the most compassionate,non-judgmental way?
Right.
Because it doesn't serve anybodyto be really harsh on yourself.
(21:42):
You want to just look with curiosity,like like you did that the morning
you dropped off your daughters.
It's like, you know, what did I do?
Could I have done something differently?
Yeah, it's a good question to ask.
And maybe you have.
Okay. So,Some good mental health going on yourself.
Yeah.
You do, I try.
I do, well, stuck out.
(22:04):
So. Yeah.
Yes. That was an acronym.We deal every day.
Social emotional learning. Everything.
So I have I have thoughts on thatand you can read about it.
Well I saw.
That.
Well, I think that there are some programsthat are better than others.
I guess I can step.
You ever heard of that one?
I have,I don't know, I couldn't tell you, like I,
my kids went through itbecause they were at Wolcott.
(22:25):
And I've heard good things about it.
I don't think that they're notthey don't have any worth.
What I'm saying in the book isyou're going to get more
from the relationshipand the moment to moment interactions.
You see these kids day in and day out.
It's how you're relating to them. It'show you're responding to them.
It's what you're modeling for them.
So you can have a formal curriculum where
(22:47):
maybe they're role playingor they're learning about their feelings.
But the way we learn about feelings
as people is not to look at like
a smiley chart of and and pick out,that's what I'm feeling.
It's that I have a sensation in my body
and you're reflecting itthrough your own body language.
Maybe you're giving me language for it.
(23:09):
If I'm really little,
you know, if I don't really understandthe difference between frustration
and anger yet,maybe you're helping me put words to that.
Yeah, but it's it's a momentto moment interaction.
And it happens primarilywith parents and children.
But it also is going to happenwith more advanced peers
or with teachers or coaches.
So my take is I'm not sayingyou have to get rid of all the ACL,
(23:33):
but it's more about what is happening dayto day, moment to moment.
That's where they'rereally getting these skills.
And it's not that
you have to teach it,it's just how do you show up
so that they're getting the experiencethat helps it to develop?
I really push grossgrowth mindset, perseverance.
You can do hard things.
(23:53):
I say a lot becausea lot of kids are like, this is hard.
Or going through aspect testing andall these different end of the year tests.
Yeah.
So a lot of challenges for kidsand they're like, this is hard.
I don't know this. I'm like, tryyour best show.
You work is another one showyou work. Draw a picture. Yep.
Use words numbers and and pictures.
Yeah.
Another one stood up PBIs I'm like,you hit them all on.
(24:15):
How do you know PBIs? That was impressive.
Yeah.
And I this one really got meI highlighted right here this was great
because this happenedwe used to old school style of teaching.
Well for behavior management.
We used to do the clips. Yes.
On a color kids name on a clip.
If you had to talk.
What's your take on that?
(24:35):
I think that it doesn't.
Your posture in your your are you.
Just saw I saw me ten year old.
Me so I already. Know.
Here's the thing for the kidsthat are going to be able to learn this,
it's going to be probably okay.
But if you think about the leaderboardthing where like you're here, you're down
here, you're ranking their behavior,is that what you're talking about?
And everyone starts on blue okay.
(24:57):
It's the good color okay.
If you shout outyou get a verbal reminder.
You go to yellow. Yeah.
And then I say it happens again.
I forgot what it was.
It was like verbal reminder.
One of them's.
There's one there.
Then it's call home.
That all.
Okay. So it's it's sort of a visualbut anyway.
But everyone sees it right.The whole class okay. So.
(25:18):
Oh no. They're gone. Okay. Go.
I'm glad to hear that. Okay.
Because I knew you were going to be gladthey're gone.
Because I saw your postureand your breathing.
You saw you start breathing.
Here's the reason
for some kids.They're going to be okay with that.
And especially the ones who can dowell anyway.
They're going to actually feel good.
I'm in the blue.
Yeah.
The kids who tend to not be in the blue.
(25:40):
This is not that they don'twant to be in the blue like something.
And I'm not giving them a pass.
Like it's okay not to be in the blue.
They need supportso that they can be there.
But when they have a visual representationthat everyone else can see.
Yeah, that I mean, they're
either going to be anxious about it,they might be angry about it,
they might shut down and be like,I don't care, but they care.
You know,everybody wants to do well, know.
(26:02):
And it's probably going to dysregulatedthose kids
more then then, you know,you have seen it.
So seeing it.
You know, but it's okayfor you to privately have some idea of
where they're at and maybe go to the kidthat's in the lower color saying,
what's going on, you know, and really havethat, that genuine again, the genuine
(26:24):
curiosity, not the what's going on,not the harsh what's heck's going on here?
It's it's happening,you know, that genuine.
And that's where the relationshipis going to carry you.
And I know you have thesegreat relationship with your students.
They love you.
And so you have that basisto ask that question.
Yeah.
You know always what about this one two.
(26:44):
The absence of a reward is punishment.
Well, that's stuck up is it not?
Because the tickets you're doinga good job.
Here's a ticket.
You're walking quietly in line.
Here's a ticket.
You were picking up.
Trash is not yours. Here's a ticket.
But now the.
Without the ticket, will they do it rightor are they being punished
(27:06):
because there's no reward?That one was like.
Yeah, I mean things I guess
the schools,
behavior management schools, I mean, goingback to the 70s and probably before
that, it was always very behavioristbased, reward punishment based.
And then we kind of droppedthe punishment stuff. Yeah.
But did we because like,this is what I'm saying.
The absence of the rewardis, yeah, the sense of punishment.
(27:28):
And so we can affect behaviorthrough rewards and punishment.
The question is what's your end game
if you're just looking to get themto comply in the moment.
And sometimes you need to listen,I get it.
There are times when it's a useful tool,
but if if you're a real bigger goalis to help them to self manage
(27:50):
to take responsibility,to be accountable, to choose
better rewards and punishmentsaren't the way to go.
And so much of what I say in the the athlete book
or the coaching bookis about the importance of autonomy.
Like and buildingcompetence and confidence.
(28:11):
So competence and confidencecome from trying something hard,
maybe failing,trying again, succeeding. And
so we need to kind of set kids up.
This is the Vygotsky stuff right.
You know the scaffolding.
We want them to be ablewe want them challenged not so far up here
(28:32):
that they're going to failand never get there.
That's just demoralizing.
But we don't want to just be handing out
awards just because you showed uplike they used to be.
Some challenge that they can masterand feel great about themselves,
that builds the confidence.
So these are the things that I'm seeingin the teens and young adults
(28:52):
now that I think is underlyingwhat if people talk about
a mental health crisis right now?
I have some thoughts onwhat's happened over the last decade,
and it's multifactorial, but some of it is
they've lost the opportunityto take those risks, fail
or succeed and build the competence,particularly around,
(29:15):
social socializing and social skillsand things like that.
And I think that'swhy we're seeing a lot of the anxiety.
I had a couple kidshand me a paper and they're like,
I'm like,that one's wrong, Derek, don't put the ax.
And I was like, whoa,that stood out to happen recently.
Years. Don't put the ax, don't put the ax.
I'm like, well,you're going to go back and change it.
And then I could get this though.
(29:37):
They didn't want the ax anywherethat's vile.
Or they don't use red pensbecause that's a bad color.
Or like, they,
it impacts them a little more.
But no, we teach childrenthat to fail is to learn,
and that perfection is not expectedor possible.
Yet our reward practice sendsa contradictory message.
(29:58):
Another highlight.
I talk about failure.
I put on the board, fail, firstattempt and learning.
I love that. Yeah, and then I write.
Mistakes are expected, respected.
Inspected. Right.
You're going to make the mistake.
We're going to respectbecause people make them,
(30:19):
and then we're going to look into itto see what you did wrong.
So we don't yeah. Do it again.
Expected respected.
But I love that.
And some kids just haveperfectionistic tendencies.
And it didn't come from the parents.
It didn't come from the teacher.
It's sort of the way their brain is wired.
But the more we can send the the messagejust generally that like this
is part of growth, you cannot growwithout some failure along the way
(30:41):
because that means you didn't take a risk.
I know I just said that today was like,
if you go through lifeand all your questions are easy,
you know, learning anything,there's no struggle.
It's like lifting up weightsthat are free light.
You're never going to get a muscle.That's right.
You need that challenge to,you know, that's when the learning
takes place and they're likeoh I'm giving them that pump up.
Before the CNT or notthe CMT the aspect testing.
(31:04):
Yeah I'm giving themlike the Vince Lombardi.
This is our Super Bowl.
We've been practicing all year.
We're going to show the worldhow smart we are.
And they're like yeah you can do it.
That's that. Coachingdoes that good. It is coaching.
And then that'sthe high expectation to you.
You're showing them your belief in them.
So you're you know you got the barand you're saying I know you can meet this
(31:27):
and we've donethis. We've put in the work.
Now let's do it. Yeah.
No, that's so interesting.
I'm really excited.
Witness and wonderabout sourcing an educator and fabric
author.
Do do you read another book too? Right.Don't you have a couple more?
I don't know, I'm working on one for itspecifically for athletes now.
Okay.It's going to be sort of an offshoot.
(31:47):
Why are you out of book?
I mean, I know that was written.This is a magazine.
I've written.
Yeah, I have journal, peer reviewedjournals and things like that.
And then trauma is a goes.
Yeah, I don't read it, fit into it.
And either book. 32 and 38.
Trauma is an interesting thing.
So like I said, I've been I've beenteaching about that for 20 plus years.
(32:09):
And I have my take on it has changed.
So I could tell you about thatif you like.
I think it's it was a great thingthat we recognized that there's trauma
underlying people's sometimes maladaptivebehaviors, addiction, things like that.
That is amazing that we can get thatbecause our our experiences
always change who we are.
They change our mindset,our worldview, our nervous system.
(32:31):
They shape us. Right?
So it's good to know that
where I think we've gonea little too far off the rails at this
point is everybody is identifyingwith their trauma story,
and that's not a good place to be.
So it's good to understand
what's happened to you and how it's shapedyou and how it's formed. You.
But the questionI like to say is, now what?
(32:54):
Because if all you dois repeat your trauma story over and over
and use it as a reason
for why I am the way I am, especiallyif you don't want to be that way,
then it's just a storythat's that's actually limiting you.
Gotcha.
So it's not about ignoring diminishingsomeone's suffering or anything like that.
Like totally not acknowledgethat and understand how it's maybe shaped
(33:15):
your beliefs or even your nervous systembecause it does.
But it's more like,okay, now what do I want?
Who do I want to be?How might I want to be different?
And so much of what I write about,especially in the second book
in Fabric Book, is about habit formationand procedural learning.
And like
you are, what you repeatedly do.
(33:37):
I think that's been attributedto Aristotle, though.
Someone told me he didn't actually said,
I don't know who said it originally,but you are what you repeatedly do.
So if you don't like who you are,you're not stuck.
It is not determined,but it is going to take some intentional,
deliberate practiceof something different.
And that's what I try to get across to theespecially
(34:01):
the young adults that I work with,whether that's around their mental health.
It might be around their athleticperformance, their well-being in general.
It's what are you going to do differently?
I have a storyI could share, if you'd like, in there.
One of my, it's it's in this one,but I have a friend from, you.
Know, a page. Chapter. 15.
(34:22):
It would be in the intentionalitychapter, and that is chapter.
I don't know,I think that's chapter five.
So I have a
story that I've been sharing in my classin my college classes for a while now.
Whenever I talk about procedural learning,procedural memory,
and just habit formation in general.
(34:43):
And I wanted to put it in the bookand I was like, well, I need to ask
permission before I write this,because this is a true story.
And one of my childhood friends.
So I, I messaged her through Facebook.
So Roseanne, it's Roseanne.
And I said, one, do you remember this?
Tell me if it's accurate.
Because, you know, we're talking about 35,40 years ago.
She says. I do remember that.
I love that you remember that.
(35:04):
And I said, okay, I would really loveto use this in my book.
Do I, you know,do I have your permission to. Yes.
And I said,would you like to be named because I can
I cannot use a nameor I could use a pseudonym.
She said, no, I want you to use my name.So her real name is Roseanne.
Shout out to Roseanne.Shout out to Roseanne.
And so this is what happened when I wasin elementary school with Roseanne.
She was a fantastic gymnast,and whenever we were in PE class,
(35:27):
we would do the,you know, the floor tumbling exercises.
And most of us are doing forwardrolls backward rolls, cartwheels.
And she'd be doing, you know,multiple back handsprings that things.
And we would all sit aroundand watch her perform,
and I would sit thereand little all of her strength
and her fearlessnessand her skill and talent
and a little envy, just like, oh,I wish I could do that, you know?
(35:50):
And then a few years later,we're in junior high.
She was always a great athlete,very strong, very fast.
And I don't know why we're doing this.
Maybe you could tell me we were.
We'd go out for P.E.
and every student would get timed how fastthey could run the short distance.
I don't remember what it was,but we had to sprint over at a time,
and it was knownthat Roseanne would be the top female,
(36:11):
maybe even the top across everyonebecause she was so fast.
But the funniest part of the story to meis that my junior high didn't have fields.
It didn't have a track.It didn't even really have.
Much like grassy area.
It was right on the road with a sidewalk.
And so this test took place
on a sandy, uneven sidewalk.
(36:33):
Okay, that we had to sprint down toto the timing.
Okay. So we're going along.
And well. It's not going to end well.
So we're watching one by one.
Roseanne takes her markand we're all expecting her to win.
So we're all watching from the grass
and she takes off like a shot.
And she's like 4 or 5 stridesin, just really going.
And the tip of her sneakercatches on the uneven sidewalk,
(36:56):
and she starts heading headfirsttoward the sandy cement sidewalk.
And it's one of those moments where you'rekind of looking through your fingers.
You know it's coming, and I swear to you,like time just slowed down.
It went in slow motion for me.
I'm expectingjust blood and skin everywhere,
and, And so.
(37:16):
Oh, and now the other thing is,what happens, I ask you, what do
most of us do in that situationif we unexpectedly fall?
Our habitual sort of defaultmode is exactly hands out tight brace.
Try to try to minimize the impact. Right.
And that's why so many people breaktheir wrists are their ulna radius.
(37:37):
So that's what I'm expecting.
Instead, Roseanne tucks her chinround her back
rolls, barelyeven touches the ground, pops right back
up, and just keeps running and like,it was like nothing happened.
She it was almost.
And we're all standing therewith our mouths agape,
because what just happened hereand that memory has never left my brain.
(37:58):
So when I started studying psychologyand I was reading about
procedural learning and procedural memoryand embodying a skill, I was like,
that's what happened therefor for 99% of the population,
the default would be to to contractand put your arms out and try to brace.
And it would not end well.
Yeah, but she was used to.
(38:18):
Flipping it.
Flipping and rolling,you know, flying toward a mat,
rolling, coming right back up.
So for her it was instinctual.
Yeah. And natural.
She didn't. She.No time to think about that.
That just it just happened.
And so I always use that as an example of,you know,
when we talk about procedural memoryor procedural learning,
but it's essentiallyit's like you embody a skill.
(38:40):
The more you do something, it'swho you are.
Okay.
So if you don't like who you are,
first become aware of what it isthat you don't like.
Is it the way you think about something?
Is ithow you show up? Is it how you react?
Is it some behavior you have?
Okay, let's be honest with yourself thereand then
what can you do differentlyand start practicing that.
(39:02):
And just like you would,
you know you get the advice to your kids,you're not going to do it well at first.
You're going to react the other wayfor a while until you don't,
until this becomes your new default mode,just like Roseanne.
And you will roll really good.
Yeah, she put that in there and let's see.
Never losing stride.
Yeah. Did she still win?
(39:23):
She did. She did. Yeah.
And it's funny that she remembers that.
I mean, I think anyone in my junior highwould remember that story.
So. Sure.
Like because we were just.
Yeah, she's about to get dusted. Yeah.
And then all of a sudden ugly.
Yeah. Wow. Roseanne. That's talent.
Yeah.
It's impressive.
That's like. Reminds me of some guy.
(39:44):
He joined the JC League and he just keepsgetting better and better.
He should be practicing really hard.
He practices day and night.
He's always on the clock. In the bookfor that.
I don't listen.
Used to not be ableto make the playoffs to me.
And now he's hitting three pointers.
What chapter is that? Yeah.
He hit a reverselayup on me the other day.
(40:07):
I was like, he's going to miss.
And all of a suddenhe finished and I'm like, oh my God.
See he got me.
Yeah Jason no that's awesome.
Before we move onthese are fantastic books.
They can be found out I.
Amazon. Amazon. Yep.
Barnes and Nobles to.
Not right now, but yeah you can search online.
(40:27):
Name is probably the easiest wayto find out about
you can find by the title if.
You and you really don't have a website.
I don't I should put one together.
I have a Facebook. Businesswith this podcast.
I know I have a Facebook business page.Okay.
We can put it there.I should get a website.
I have an Instagram,but it's barely population.
So I know someone that does websites.
(40:47):
Well, I think I need to.I was like, I need to ask.
Podcast guest blue Jean creative.
Okay. Ali Bell Ali Baluchi.
All right, check it out.
She was episode I'm going to look her up.
Ali Baluchi blue jeans.Tell her I sent you.
I will check outfriends of e-commerce website.
She just did ours.
Okay. Really nice. Okay.
Interactive. It pops.
There's bouncing and movements and flows.
(41:09):
There's bars going across.
I really I do needI do need something I said,
but one of my favorite things to dois to consult.
And, you know, like I said,I usually get through word of mouth, but,
it would be nice for peopleto know that it's available.
Can you pick your baby?
Which one do you like?
I mean, I'm loving the coaching oneright now because that's where my mind is.
(41:29):
I am coaching, I,
I just, just did, some consultation with,
all the head coaches at Holy Crossthat that's a Division one school.
That was pretty remarkable.
The former.
Alma mater.
My. Yes, and I wasI met the ad a year ago.
We were talking about it.
He said, you know,I'd love to see the book.
He read it.
(41:50):
Yeah.
To see all those sticky notesyou have in there.
He had like 20 times that amount.
And he said, I really want to order thisfor all the head coaches
and their assistants.
And would you come in and talk?
And that's my favorite thing to dobecause it's more about just hearing
what they want some feedback onand kind of going from there.
(42:11):
And so I was able to talk to many of them.
I don't know if you saw,
but the baseball teamjust won the Patriot League last night.
They beat Army. Wow.
So all because they.
Don't know
that I'm not going to take credit card onjust saying I'm very proud of them.
But but we talked about it. It was funny.
We talked about some thingsin that meeting and that were, you know,
(42:32):
that were he was wondering how to approachand kind of cool off.
Well, congratulations. Holy Cross.
And these are wonderful books.
I find them really engagingand educational.
Demand personalizing autograph.
I don't mind at all. Let's do it.
Take.
Yeah.
We'll get into your coaching.
(42:53):
So you coach, cheerleader.
I coached Trinity. A Trinity Collegecheerleading team. Yeah.
And I've been coachingcheerleading on and off since the 80s.
Like.
Like I said, I started when I was.
When did I get a little Fenian here?
Oh. Two. Feeney.
Keep up the good work.You're a great teacher.
Well, you. Put too much pressure.
(43:14):
All right,we'll do that after I got my autograph.
I love it. Okay.
Yeah, I coached in the same rec programthat I started in.
My family's a big football family.
My uncle was the coach of the high school,so we all did the
the rec football and cheerleading.I was the only girl. Yep.
So it was it was a given that I was goingto cheer for the football.
(43:35):
But I loved it.
I met a lot of friends doing it,and I ended up
cheering in high school and college.And then you're like a base or a flier or.
What do you.
I started as a flierbecause I used to be very short.
I was only 411 when I was a freshmanin high school, and then I grew
eight inches, and I became a base. So.
We Trinity, who just won the championship,they did.
Your girls cheerleader.
(43:55):
Yes. For that, that it was.Is it a ring or trophy arena.
Not going to ring.
No. But it'swe had. The championship game. We didn't.
They didn't fly us out to Indiana.
No okay I didn't, but.
Congrats to the team.
Yeah. It's just so fun to be right there.
You know they're there at the base line.
I'm right behind the table basically.
You know and I know all the the boysI've gotten to know them over the years
(44:18):
and it's really fun to watch them.
But I know I was practicing with Jasonone time in the driveway
and you had like a team meetingor so I saw.
It was showing up. Was it the preseason?
Yeah, I think that was ourthat was probably our beginning of season.
Just team bonding.
Yeah, yeah.
But, I yeah, I have the overall.
(44:38):
Building rapport and relationships.
For sure.
We do a lot of that.
Yeah, I talk about that in the book.
It's greatwhen you do things with your athletes
or they do things togetherthat are not sport related.
Just just have some fun, you know,get to know each other.
Different in a different way.
I'm always amazedhow much talent my girls have that are.
(45:01):
That is different from cheer.
I mean, they're great in their athleticismand their dance, but a lot of them sing
and they do theater and they they'rein all these different clubs and things.
And I try as much as I canto show up for them when they have
their performances that are,you know, there's so many of them. But
I, I that's ki I, I just attended
(45:23):
Kids Ninja Warrior competition.
I've been to plays soccer games.
Yeah.
You I mean, you have all your kidsthat go on and then you're going park.
If I walk the dog or someone'splaying a baseball game there.
Yeah. So it's great.
I just saw someonewe podcast at Luna Pizza recently.
(45:44):
I saw a former student,
and I went to her gymnastics,and I'm like, you still doing gymnastics?
She's like, no,but I'm doing track and field. Yeah.
So it was great to catch up.
It's good to it's good to have us to tryto be a scholar athlete in your life.
Yeah, right. Like I'mstill trying to be a scholar athlete.
I just want
to exercise and also hit the academics,
(46:06):
you know, read, teach, learn,learn something new every day.
I tell all my students,I say it on the podcast.
I'm a lifelong learner,so I'm really enjoying this conversation.
I'm learning something new.
And, and,you know, I work at work at the gym,
work out at the JCC and play hoop, swim,
swim a mile this morning.
(46:27):
That's impressive.
Oh, yeah.
Yeah.
5 a.m. club new member.
No, just oh, at the JCC.
Now she he's he's a member,but I'm not. Oh.
Have you ever tried.
No, I'm not a swimmer, but I membership.
But not at 5 a.m..
I do workout. Yeah.
Like I have that at the J. Yeah, yeah.
Racquetball work.
I am the strengthand conditioning coach for my team.
(46:49):
We don't have one, so.
Oh, I have to, keep abreast of thethe latest,
you know, ways to train them for safety.
You know.
Is there a a competitionor a winning for cheerleading.
There?
I mean, there's not a lot in New Englandfor colleges in terms of camps.
There's one called the New EnglandCheerleading Association that we go to.
I think there's a couple in Bostonthat are open.
(47:13):
There's it's we'd have to get into cheerin more depth for you to get this,
but there's a lot of all star
competitions that will invite collegesif you want to go.
But the big ones, the nationalsthat are in Daytona, we're not there yet.
We don't have that kind of money.
First of all, and we could get therebecause there are
other teams at the same levelthat we're at that go.
(47:36):
But I would want to be a notch higherbefore
we were going to make that commitmentto get there.
It's just a really big undertaking.
We're a Nescac team,
so, there's not a lot of cheerleadingin Nescac.
There's only, I think Wesleyan and Tufts,out of all the teams, even have programs.
Oh, wow.
So, it's and it's a new program.
(47:59):
It's only three years old.
Oh, you're the originator.
Well, I didn't start it because some kidsstarted it as a club in 2021.
It was a club at that point.
And then in 2022 it became a club sport
and they hired a coach. So.
And I heard about itand I'd wanted to get in.
I had coached at Conard for many years.
(48:20):
Oh yeah, I remember. That. Yeah.
I'm still in touch with all those kids.
Yep. Remember things.
And I taken some time offand I'd been itching to get back into it.
I even thoughtabout going back to high school
coaching, which is that's an undertakingbecause there's a lot of time,
you know, in college.
Yeah, Iwould say it is, depends on the college.
This was, you know, but,you know, we have breaks and,
(48:43):
we don't travel with the team,so we reach our home
games, home football gamesor on travel of the way games.
We do.
We do cheer for, men's and women'sbasketball.
Says a lot of those games.
But, yeah, at the high school level,it's even more because you're doing
you're doingprobably traveling for football.
You're doing all the boys and girls gamesand there's multiple competitions.
(49:04):
So it's a lot.
But I was really grateful to get into itat Trinity because,
you know,I know these kids as students, but
to know them as a coach, you justyou get to know them even more deeply.
You know, I'm spending ten, 12 hoursa week with them,
but intensely, and it's just,
you know, they're like my daughters, like,see what might be going coed next year.
(49:26):
I found out we have some menthat are interested, so we'll see.
You might have a coed team.
Nice desert jacket. They are.
They are on hand.
Tossing and catching them. Yeah.
It's just it's just such a fun sport.
I you know there is a lot of athleticism.
It's not always appreciatedof how much there is
(49:47):
but it also has especially for game day.
I love football and basketball so I lovejust being in in the thick of it.
And then we get to I also love music,so I get to choreograph.
Yeah, routinesand then put out half times or sidelines.
So it's, it's, it sort of touches onall the things that bring me joy.
(50:08):
Yeah. And,
and I get to teach all those life skillslike you're doing with your students.
But I'm doing it through. This yes. Way.
I coached the Boys and Girls clubs
high school basketball team in Waterbury.
Made it to the state championship.Oh, Preston.
Lost to Hartford's Boys and Girls Club.
It was supposed to be 18 and under.
(50:29):
They had a 20 year old on the team.Yeah, I'm not bitter.
They got a. Ringer.
It was like 17 years ago.
I'm not bitter. It's
now coachingand teaching is off and fantastic.
I coached all my daughters.
I coached girls soccer.
I was the best kindergarten soccer coach.
Motivated? Yeah.
Then you got to second grade.You had to know positions and stuff.
I was like, oh,I don't know soccer that well.
(50:51):
Basketball up until eighth grade. Yup.
Softball up until.
Now. What sports did you play?
I played college.
I played baseball and football in.
In basketball?
Yeah, in high school.
Nothing in college. Intramurals.
My wife played basketball for southern.
That's great.That's why I married her. Yeah.
(51:11):
So sheshe has a thousand more points than me.
I was great, so no.
And I. Yeah.
Jason, shout out to your guy Jason.
Great great guy for future Futurepodcast guest.
I met him.
We both had the kids at the Sandboxat Oak Park, remember?
(51:31):
So this is what I remember.First time ever heard your name.
Yeah. Go ahead. No,I remember he came home.
He had taken Luke. Might have taken al.
I can't remember how old they were,but Luke was still a toddler.
Yeah.
Went over to Wolcott and he came back.
Seimetz.
Great guy,really down to earth, great guy.
I was like, right,because we'd only been at West Hartford.
Yeah. He was. Yeah.
So the guy. Chadwick at the. Park. Yeah.
(51:54):
And that was the beginning of it.
Then I saw him,so I saw him at the park with our kids.
I would, I lived across the street.
So I'd bring my girlsseven in the morning.
Twin girls like what am I going to do.
That's why we moved there for get park,get the babies.
My wife was pregnant.
Yeah.
There was like the school,there was like, oh, we can go to the mall.
We can go over here, walk it.
Park was the huge. So I was there a lot.
(52:17):
And Jason, then I saw him at SedgwickMiddle School and an open run.
Right.
We both didn't belong therebecause the talent was way too good.
And then fast forward eyes.
Were like 20, oh, 20. Yeah.
I said, you need to find over 50 plus.
Okay.
So now we're in the same league at the JC.
Had a couple former guests, sonBilly Markowitz, Ben Few club.
(52:41):
Scott.
Andy, Jason's got to come.
Now, he's a good guy, so he's all right.
He's all right. He'sall right. Well, he's a keeper.
Yeah, yeah. Keep him around. Yep.
We talked all this teacher talk.
Do you have a favorite teacher,a teacher that inspired you, or.
I have so many favorites.
(53:01):
But I was thinking about that, and I hadone particular memory pop into my mind,
because when I was in junior high,there was a social studies teacher, Mr.
Winslow.
And what I remember about him,and I think probably all the kids felt
this way, is henot only was he kind and safe,
he was funnyand he just kept things light.
(53:25):
And he was a serious teacher.
We learned,but he was just always having fun.
And we had these,
like, progress notes,but they were really.
You got them if you were in trouble.
They, they call them progress notes, butit was more of like, you know, your child
has been doing X, Y, and Z, and here'swhat needs to happen, blah, blah, blah.
(53:45):
And me being like the rulefollowing perfect student.
I never got one, a real one.
But he one time wrote me a funny joke one,
and I found it a couple of years ago
when I was moving, that I kept itbecause I loved it so much.
And I just thought about todayhe he wrote, you know,
something about me throwing darts at himand him having to keep ducking.
(54:07):
And he signed it.
Frank and Stein and he dated it 1849.
And then I looked at it,and now this is, you know, early 80s.
Okay.
So do you remember the showWelcome Back, Kotter?
Yeah. Okay.With the sweat hogs and Epstein.
So I showed my mom because I thoughtit was hilarious, but then I signed it.
(54:28):
Susan's mother,the way Epstein used to sign the notes.
Epstein's mother. Gotcha.
So I kept that. And I still think of him.
But I had so many. Great.
I mean, I remember my kindergarten teacherwho is just so warm
and nurturing my, a math teacherI had in high school.
Ms.. Peterson.I'm still in touch with her now.
She's still teaching.
(54:48):
I think she's retired, but gone back insome other role as a teacher.
Had her multiple times.
Loved math. So, yeah, I mean,
I could go on, but.
And then you're ABC Eagle.
I am ABC Eagle.That's where I did my grad school.
So I did my master's in counseling there,and then a doctorate in developmental.
And I taught there for several years.
(55:09):
So we got to go to NotreDame's coming to that.
Okay. Ithey come in here this year. Okay, fine.
I could probably get us a box. Let's go.
We'll say, let's go.
Let's do it. Be a good friend. Come.
That'd be great.
Huge Notre Dame fan.And I know they're coming.
And I went already once before.
I'm going to go on.
I'm going to look at the.
Did you know the day of hand?
I'll look it out. I'll look it up. Okay.
(55:30):
But I went there.I got a picture of the Doug Flutie statue.
Yeah.
And then I went over to the Boston fans.
They were kids.I was younger, yeah, on my guys.
I had Notre Dame helmet, shirt.
I'm going to lean into you.
I want you to do whatever you want.Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So there's a lot of fingersand but it's a great picture.
And I'm like,this big 50 kids behind me. Give me.
(55:50):
I got to introduce you to my cousin Phil.
Yeah.
Who went to Notre Dameand is a huge diehard.
Hey, let's go. So.We can make the drive. I'm.
He'll. Come on. He lives in Florida.But he would come up for that.
Okay, I know he. Would make it.
It might make it a group effort. Yeah.
I, drove out there three times.
I saw them play.
Did I see? Yeah. Matty ice.
Matt Ryan was a quarter he see.
(56:12):
So I saw him in NotreDame as well okay I saw Stanford out there
Notre BC out there UConnwhen UConn one. Yep.
So no BC let's do it.
All right. Wonderful chatting with you.
Did I miss anything?
Do you have any recommendationsTV shows, podcasts?
Any questions for the best?
(56:32):
The trial? No.
Because I love all things Boston.
No. I'm just, you know, I'mreally thankful for you for doing this.
And, and just being who you are.
I mean, you really show up for these kids
in so many different ways,and they're lucky to have you.
Thank you. So much. Yeah.
So, a big shout out to to youand all the teachers and coaches.
It's not an easy job.
(56:53):
Some of the most important work out there.
So yeah. Yeah.
But even you mentioned at the beginning
my name is Eric Feeney, founderand president of Friends of Feeney.
Our mission is to help
children and families in need assistanceafter heartbreak or tragedy.
I use this podcast.
Feeney talks with friends,and I talk to wonderful people
in the communitythat are doing great things.
And Susan, you do great things again.
Author, coach, professor,
(57:15):
mom, wife, psychologist.
And do it all.
And you can see what the color of my shirtbefore we go.
All right.Are you next, man. Before we go. Oh, boy.
Before we go.
Oh, gosh. Okay.
All right. Jason Ryan. This boy.
Yeah, that was heartbreaking for us,but it's all right.
Next year. As always. Next year.
Well, again, you're a good friend.
(57:36):
Our motto is be a good friend.
Pick up trash, hold the door.
And you're doing great things.
So thank you again for chatting.I learned so much.
Thank you.
Sarah, we got a witness in Wonder fabric.
Go out and check it out on Amazon.
Wonderful author. Great person.
Three will say be a good friend.
123 be a good friend.
All right, all right.
Feeney talks with friends.
Episode 139 with my good friend Susan.
How are you doing, Susan?
I'm great.Thank you for having me. Doctor.
Ivana. Yeah. Doc?
What's up doc?
All kinds of things.
I can't wait to talk about it. Yeah.Susan, I'm so happy to talk with you.
I've known you for so long.
You're an author. You're a psychologist.
You're, coach, you're a mom, a wife.
(00:23):
You are a school counselor.
I mean, we have so much to talk about.
Where do you want to start?And a college professor.
And a college professor. Yeah,I missed one.
That's all right, then.
A lot of things.
Yeah, we can start wherever you like.
No. It's just so great for you to be here.
It's. We're filming in May.
May is mental health month.
So it's very importantto talk about mental health.
(00:43):
As my last podcast guest, if you were toexplain mental health to a third grader,
how would you go about explaining mentalhealth to a third grader?
I think about mental health
as being able to enjoy your life,
and so having the skillsto be able to respond to
whatever's happening around you and adaptto whatever's happening around you.
(01:07):
And we could talk about this,but in the books that I've written
and in the work that I do with young kidsas well as adolescents, young adults,
that's pretty much the crux of it, ishelping to provide them with those skills
so that they can meetwhatever challenges they meet, and that is
that is what good mental healthlooks like. Good, a good life.
I find it, circumstantial.
(01:29):
I'm thinking about what just happened.
I drop off,I drop off my daughters every day.
Economy. It goes smooth. We talk.
It's like, our bond time.
But there was a food truck back then.
So we were paused herewhere we usually drop off over here.
Okay, so they're like rush now.
So now it's like,all right, let's get out here.
(01:49):
Yeah. So they rush to get out.
Our line starts to form,and when my daughter's golf bag falls out.
So now it's like, so how would someone help us?
Circumstantial. Like,everything was great.
Yeah, but that already. Now
word is dysregulated. Yes.
We just read you last Thursday.
What would be some advice?
(02:10):
I'm like, just get on the sidewalk.
Everything will be fine. Yeah.
Or should I have paused and just waitedfor the truck to do its thing
and then park in our usual spotor letting them out?
So I had so much reflection on my way backafter dropping them off.
I mean, we talked about it.
It's like we rushed the decision right?
So what what are your thoughts on that?
(02:31):
First of all,I love that you reflected on that.
Okay. That's that's so key.
There's no one right decision there.
And it's such a split second decisionanyway.
Like, how could you know
what of what could have come fromany given, you know, route you took there.
But, you staying calm is key.
So for me, the adult in the situationwhere that's a parent,
(02:53):
the teacher,the coach, you can only control you.
Yeah. So you could say,what should I have done for them?
But really you.
If you're staying regulated,that's going to go so far
toward keeping them regulatedor at least modeling what it could be
if they're not able to do itin that moment.
And so, yeah, I mean, you could havewaited, you could have done what you did,
but ultimatelyyou're also helping them to reflect.
(03:16):
So maybe even talking about it
later is is kind of normalizingthis idea that, hey, you know what?
Like things happen, we react.
Sometimes it works out,sometimes it doesn't.
And we can think aboutmaybe how to do it differently next time.
Yeah.
But it's all about becoming more
responsive to what's happeningrather than reactive. Yep.
But also recognizing our humanity.
(03:38):
And we're going to react,you know, we're just going to
we're going to have those momentsand that's okay. Okay.
All right. All right. Thanks.
So you handled that well.And I know love the reflection.
Now the whole time I'm like,maybe I should have just waited.
I did kind of say get on the sidewalk
like, well, you know,we went on the other side of the car
because the truck was
there, but then the carsthat were behind us were trying to go.
(04:00):
So then it got a little.
And sometimes you need to do that.
And it was a safety thing, like reallygive them that direction because who knows
if they had stepped a different way,maybe a car would have come around.
So but you know, at afterwardswhen everything's calmed down
and everyone'skind of gotten back into regular,
you can say, yeah, oh, sorry,I yelled there.
I, you know, I was nervousthat, yeah, you were going to get hurt.
Okay.I want you to acknowledge that. Yeah.
(04:23):
That it's great.
See? Well, counseling. So.
Yes. Exactly how much do I owe you?
Oh, this one's pro bono.
Deal? Deal. So how long?
What what inspiredyou to get into psychology?
Because you have so many degreesand went to so many schools.
And so what was the inspiration?
I don't want to speakfor every psychologist out there,
but I think that a lot of us get into itto try to figure ourselves out bigger.
(04:45):
Our families out.I mean, everybody has their stuff.
Nobody goes through this life withoutsome, you know, challenges, craziness.
And for me, you know,I also just loved it.
I went to I went to my undergrad thinkingI was going to be a math
major, really having no ideawhat I was going to do with that.
But I just loved mathand I was good at it.
And so that's how Ithat was the mindset I had going in.
(05:06):
Didn't know a thing about psychology,had never had any kind of intro course
or anything.
And then I took an intro course just tofulfill a requirement, and I was hooked.
I loved it and immediately declaredthe major and but again, it was for me.
And we can talk about this if you like.
Because I'm a big fan of first generationcollege students, I am one,
I support them, I am on the boardwhere I went to college to support them,
(05:30):
and I actually have just recently,joined a work group at Trinity too.
But I had no idea.
I didn't have this sort of long term plan.
It was sort of get the degree now what?
And, so I did finish the degree.
And one thing I knew,I thought I wanted to be a teacher.
Yeah.
Just because I
had always admired my teachers and was sothey were so impactful for me.
(05:54):
And I also loved coaching
because I had coached, as a high school student.
I'd coached little rec teams.
And so I thought, I want to teachand I want to coach,
and that's going to be great life.
I did do an internship in teaching.
I think it was fourthgrade students that I think. Nope.
And that for me, it was the chaos of it.
(06:14):
And I thought, okay.
At the same time, I was diving deeperinto more of the therapeutic side of,
of psychology.
And I thought I would liketo be a counselor or a therapist.
Nice.
And so I went the school counselor route.
Okay. But that was the next degree.
And you can.
We can I can tell you howI kept going to connections.
(06:36):
First generation college.
And I at southern studied sociology major.
Psychology minor.
So high, was my favorite class,and my daughters are taking it.
O'Connor. And we always talk about it.
It's a it's a very interesting, subjecthow the brain works.
And decisions that are made.
And,
they just came homeand taught me something, too.
(06:57):
It's like she did it to me, too.Like she's sitting on the couch.
She asked a really nice question, like,oh, can you give me a hug?
Yeah.
Then can you go get me my backpackin the front in the in the library?
Yeah. So she didn't have to get upthe couch. Yep.
And that's a trick you asked too. Yes.
You ask a easy yes question.
There are more likely to say yes the next.
That's fascinating. Yeah.
(07:18):
And then they pulled it on meand it worked. Yeah.
And there's so much neuroscience nowworked into the the major to even their
separate degrees.
But and I've taught a lot of it's,it's really fun stuff.
Yeah. Yeah.
So now I'm so excited.
Yeah. Mental health month.
We're happy to talk with my friend Susan.
She's an author.
This is episode 139 I fabric.
(07:41):
I was very interested in this one.
You said it's good for coaches.
I wrote it for coaches.
But it's really about leadershipand and team culture.
So, I wrote it.
I had an idea to write this book about 15years ago, and I didn't for a very well.
I had a newborn and a toddlerand other things going on multiple jobs,
(08:02):
so I didn't do it at that point.
I ended up writing the other one first,but I came back around to it last year,
and I, I really thought there was a needfor some support for coach development
because it's like just like teachingand sometimes
even moreso you have those deep relationships.
You have so much of an impactand an influence positively or negatively.
(08:23):
Right. And there's very little
support.
I mean, you could have great mentors,but in sort of like a,
you know, training for coaches, it'snot there.
It is the the athleticism of the sport,but not in more of the relational aspects.
And so that's what I wanted to do.
And I pulledfrom a variety of disciplines.
(08:43):
So I pulled from developmental psychology,clinical psychology,
health psychology, sportspsychology and neuroscience.
And I wanted to take all of that
and just boil it downlike what are the core elements.
So does it need to be complicated?
What are the key pieces that needto be there and what do they look like?
And most importantly, how is it applied?
Like what does this look like in practice?
(09:04):
What does this look like day to day,moment to moment, as you're relating
to these kids or or adultsif you're coaching adults.
And so that's what it is.
I fabric is an acronym.
So the core, the six core elements.
First thing I thought about I'm. Like,wow, I was like average.
So I don't know if that's a great titlebecause
now people search for it, they get thingson, you know, sewing or whatever.
(09:25):
But it's an acronym and it'sbecause the six core elements were are,
focus, awareness, belonging, repair
for intentionalityand curiosity and compassion.
Those are sort of the keythings that every good leader,
teacher, coach and parent,if you keep those things at the forefront,
(09:47):
you can kind of make your way throughany challenge that comes up.
It's the bedrock,I think, for, optimal development
and wellbeing and mental health.
But it's also the same core piecesthat underlie peak performance.
So you're notyou're not giving up one for the other.
And I think there's a,much more of an awareness
(10:08):
now that you can have great athleteswho perform at a high level without
harm, you know, without,
eroding their physical or mentalwell-being.
Now, is this a, it really reminds me of,like, a college.
It's. It'smeant to be sort of a workbook.
Okay.
In the sense that I tooksome is really. Yes.
(10:31):
It's really nice to read. Yeah.
And then you have reflection questions
after each chapter,which really stood out to me.
So I'm like, is this for a college courseor is it just the reflection I.
Might use it in a course that I'mteaching, but it wasn't intended for that.
But it could be.
What I wanted to do is take again, like,
there's some really complextopics up there.
You could pick up a sports psych book
and it's going to be dense,and they'll be theories
(10:52):
and they'll be models,and that's all great stuff.
But what does that look like
for the average coach tothen go into their practice and use it?
And so what I wanted to do is say, okay,it's very much steeped in research.
In theory,there's none of this is just my thoughts.
It's it's, you know, tried and true.
But then I take stories,you know, anecdotes.
Some are personalto me and some are made up.
(11:15):
Oh. I also interviewed college athletes.
That was one of my favorite pieces,actually.
I, a bunch of athletes across sports,
reflecting on their current athleticism,
but also like their youth experiences.
And so I integratedsome of the quotes from that.
But the reflection and the exercisesare meant to prompt the coach
(11:36):
to just think about, like, yeah,
how is this working for you or notworking for you?
And just it's not prescriptive.
It's not in it's not intendedto tell someone how to coach
because everybody bringstheir own personality and style to it.
But it helps them to think through
the most common challengesthat we see as coaches.
And again, a teacher could read this and,I probably get a lot of it,
(12:00):
a lot out of it as well.
I did noticeI have it right here to the exercise page.
I love that the reflection page, you know,I get that
you always answering questionsat the end of the chapter.
But yeah, to to to actually do somethinglike consider
a belief of a negative expectationthat you have about an athlete.
So well that's a bitI talked a lot about expectations.
(12:20):
And this is so true for teachers.And you could
you probably read the Rosenthaland Jacobsen study from the 1960.
You know, that's like a classic right.
Is is kids rise to the expectationyou have or fall to the expectation
you have a and
so we don't want to have our expectationsso high that they can't meet them.
And that's a different problem.
But we do want to keep them high.
And so sometimeswhen you get into a dynamic
(12:42):
with a kid in the classroomor on the field or wherever,
you know, you can start to expect themto behave badly,
you can start to expect themnot to listen or perform or whatever.
And then it becomes a self-fulfillingprophecy.
So what do you have controlover as a coach?
Only you.
Only what you think, only what you say,only what you do.
We really don't control other peopleas much as we may try to.
(13:06):
We have a lot of influence though, so.
But we do that by controlling ourselves.
So you keep the expectations high.
So this is a reflection to say okay,what are you expecting out of this kid.
And and if it's not matchingto what you would want maybe try
try to shift that a little bit,give them the benefit of the doubt
that they can do itand that will come through.
(13:28):
Even if you don't verbalize thatit'll come through in your body language.
It'll come through in the waysin which you're interacting
in those moment to moments,and they'll show up differently.
And then maybe you will show updifferently.
And it's it's that bidirectional language.
Well, that's in this book.
Both of them.Body language I it stood out.
Yeah. So,
(13:49):
your posture, your icon, your breathing.
And so it's oh, this an thisI definitely noticed in this book.
So now there's witness and wonder.
There's a lot of connectionand correlation.
Yeah.
There's certain themes that that crossboth books.
I get into them in different waysand I apply them differently.
But I was it writinga nonfiction is is it?
(14:10):
I find it challenging.
It's challenging.
Bibliography here is pretty,pretty serious.
Well, you know, I am an academic at heart.
And so and I'm very it's very importantto me to give credit where credit's due.
So, you know,it's a lot of it is my original thought
in the way I put it together.
But if I'm going to,
you know, cite research, I'mgoing to show you where that came from.
I'm not just going to say studies showwhich studies show.
(14:32):
I noticed that right away. Yeah.
That's obviously very good.
Yeah.
So you can you could go further
if you're interestedin any particular topic,
you could take it further byjust checking out where I got that from.
But I'm a big fan of learninghow to become more aware of
and control our nonverbals
and how because we communicate so muchmore non-verbally than we do verbally.
(14:55):
And you got to know this as a teacher.Yeah.
They're not hearing you as much as they'rethey're they're taking in all of you.
So if you come in with a with a presence,you're going to get their attention
much faster. They're just yelling.
So my loud my quiet voiceis more effective than my loud.
That's the strategy.
Yeah.
Or I do I rank I do a singing bell.
(15:18):
Ding ding. Stop one. Stopwhat you're doing.
Two eyes on me three.
We take a big breath together.I love that. Breath.
And that gets everyoneback on the same page.
And then sometimes we'll take fivedeep ones together.
Different strategies are do the one, two,three eyes on me.
Yeah.
So you're regulating them.
Come in with a story they love stories,
personal connections so that they'll neverI try to teach them something.
(15:41):
They're not listening.
But if I tell them about my dog Barkleyor me playing basketball, the J.
They're like,yeah, quiet and listen. Yes.
And they're going to get so muchfrom that. Yeah.
And that's the the belonging part of the,of the coaching book is
and I talk I mean the whole other bookis about relationships as well.
But teaching is a relationship.
Coaching is a relationship.
(16:01):
And you you got to start there.
But yeah that, that connection.
Now you also have a businessor a company called witness and one.
Well,when I was doing professional division.
So this book was a culminationof the professional development.
And the, I was working as a school mentalhealth consultant for many years.
I was doing trauma informed stuffbefore it was a thing.
(16:23):
You know, I got trained up in Boston.
I don't know if you know the name Besselvan der Kolk,
but he wrote the book,The Body Keeps the Score.
People know it now in the trauma field.
But I was training with his group in theearly 2000 before he wrote that book.
It was a paper.
And I was very inspired by thatbecause it was a
it was a fairly new wayof looking at a lot of the behaviors
(16:46):
we see in people that we would jumpand give a diagnosis to
without really understanding the etiologyor what what
what was the point, what what waswhat is the behavior serving?
How is that serving the person?
And so that sort of shiftinto understanding
earlytrauma was really eye opening for me,
because that wasn't the wayit was thought of before that.
(17:08):
And so I took a lot of that information
and it was being applied clinically,but it wasn't in schools yet.
Not, you know, everywhere.
And probablysomebody was doing it somewhere,
but it wasn't kind of the thing.
And then when I moved here,I was doing some work with that,
and I don't really promote myself.
(17:29):
I don't, I don't have like a website.
I don't say, hey, I do this, hire me.
It's more like I give a talk or workshopand then I get a referral.
And so for for many years,I was all over the state doing this
kind of work, and sometimes just going in and observing
kids like, oh, you know, this, this,this child's having a hard time.
Would you come into the classroom?
(17:49):
Just give us your thoughts onmaybe how the teacher could,
you know, manage this differently or, and so that
this book was a culmination of that,because what I found out
through pretty early on, actually, iswhen I would do these professional.
And you've sat through a numberof professional development,
I'm sure some are better than others.
(18:09):
And I tried to be engagingby a lot of times
they'll put you in a big auditorium.
And I would say to them,please don't do that.
You're not going to getanything out of this.
This is a small group, deep,intimate conversation.
It should not be mespeaking at 200 people, but whatever.
They would put me in auditoriums a lotand occasionally it would break out after.
(18:32):
But one thing I realized,
I went in with the intent to help to
get the adults,meaning the teachers, the counselors
and other staffto better understand the behavior of kids.
Maybelook at it from a different perspective,
which would give them some insighton where to go from here.
And what I realized is that itdidn't really matter
how well they understood it,because they did understand it.
(18:54):
They would get it.These concepts aren't hard to get.
They would get it.
Light bulb moments. I'd see it.
They'd excitedly talk about it. I got it.
But then I would go in and observeand nothing would change.
And that makes sense because
we, as the adults in the room are humanand we are reactive.
(19:14):
And so when that child starts to actin the way that they act,
we reacteven if we have all that knowledge.
And I'm glad you're doing
the sort of proactive approachof regulating them first, not that,
but you could probably think of instanceswhere like, you're going, you're going to
just snap, you're going to you're goingto go back to that habitual reactivity.
And I thought, okay,I need to work with the adult in the room.
(19:36):
I need to help them to find waysfor their own well-being, actually,
and to reduce their burnout,whether that's a teacher
or a parent or coach,because they can only control them.
So I kind of I switched itI it's still talking about what kids need,
but it's like what can we do as the adult?
So that's what that book is about.
(19:57):
That's why there's so many practices
at the end on how to regulate yourselffrom a notice, from a top.
Down changes at the end. Or bottom up.
So I think of it in terms of top downand bottom up, top down being
those cognitive strategiesand things that you do with
how you think and your mindsetand your expectations and all that.
And then bottom upis working with the body.
(20:17):
So working with the breath,working with your posture, your energy,
things like that.
This is really important all the time.
But it's particularly important in sportswhen I work with athletes.
You're not going to change your mindwith the mind in a stressful moment.
So you're in a game situation, let's say,right, and it's not going your way.
You just missed a really importantfall shot.
(20:39):
I know you're your basketball player.
What happens if you get in your head?
You're not getting out of your headwith your head.
You're not going to use self-talkin that moment, most likely.
Okay, okay.
Maybe if you've practiced itand you have a ritual around it
or something like that,you might be able to,
but you can shift your physiologyreally fast with the breath,
with changing your posture,with sort of things
(21:00):
that are more physical physically,even the way where your your gaze is going
wide or narrow.
These are things that are goingto change your nervous system
that might getyou back in a regulated state.
So the second one you make okay, okay.
So that's that's why I come at itfrom both, perspectives.
I think that all of usare trying our best,
(21:21):
to make it through our daysand to be great in our relationships.
And all of us have the same challengesof being reactive,
having our habits and tendencies.
And it's more about,
can you become aware of what those are
in the most compassionate,non-judgmental way?
Right.
Because it doesn't serve anybodyto be really harsh on yourself.
(21:42):
You want to just look with curiosity,like like you did that the morning
you dropped off your daughters.
It's like, you know, what did I do?
Could I have done something differently?
Yeah, it's a good question to ask.
And maybe you have.
Okay. So,Some good mental health going on yourself.
Yeah.
You do, I try.
I do, well, stuck out.
(22:04):
So. Yeah.
Yes. That was an acronym.We deal every day.
Social emotional learning. Everything.
So I have I have thoughts on thatand you can read about it.
Well I saw.
That.
Well, I think that there are some programsthat are better than others.
I guess I can step.
You ever heard of that one?
I have,I don't know, I couldn't tell you, like I,
my kids went through itbecause they were at Wolcott.
(22:25):
And I've heard good things about it.
I don't think that they're notthey don't have any worth.
What I'm saying in the book isyou're going to get more
from the relationshipand the moment to moment interactions.
You see these kids day in and day out.
It's how you're relating to them. It'show you're responding to them.
It's what you're modeling for them.
So you can have a formal curriculum where
(22:47):
maybe they're role playingor they're learning about their feelings.
But the way we learn about feelings
as people is not to look at like
a smiley chart of and and pick out,that's what I'm feeling.
It's that I have a sensation in my body
and you're reflecting itthrough your own body language.
Maybe you're giving me language for it.
(23:09):
If I'm really little,
you know, if I don't really understandthe difference between frustration
and anger yet,maybe you're helping me put words to that.
Yeah, but it's it's a momentto moment interaction.
And it happens primarilywith parents and children.
But it also is going to happenwith more advanced peers
or with teachers or coaches.
So my take is I'm not sayingyou have to get rid of all the ACL,
(23:33):
but it's more about what is happening dayto day, moment to moment.
That's where they'rereally getting these skills.
And it's not that
you have to teach it,it's just how do you show up
so that they're getting the experiencethat helps it to develop?
I really push grossgrowth mindset, perseverance.
You can do hard things.
(23:53):
I say a lot becausea lot of kids are like, this is hard.
Or going through aspect testing andall these different end of the year tests.
Yeah.
So a lot of challenges for kidsand they're like, this is hard.
I don't know this. I'm like, tryyour best show.
You work is another one showyou work. Draw a picture. Yep.
Use words numbers and and pictures.
Yeah.
Another one stood up PBIs I'm like,you hit them all on.
(24:15):
How do you know PBIs? That was impressive.
Yeah.
And I this one really got meI highlighted right here this was great
because this happenedwe used to old school style of teaching.
Well for behavior management.
We used to do the clips. Yes.
On a color kids name on a clip.
If you had to talk.
What's your take on that?
(24:35):
I think that it doesn't.
Your posture in your your are you.
Just saw I saw me ten year old.
Me so I already. Know.
Here's the thing for the kidsthat are going to be able to learn this,
it's going to be probably okay.
But if you think about the leaderboardthing where like you're here, you're down
here, you're ranking their behavior,is that what you're talking about?
And everyone starts on blue okay.
(24:57):
It's the good color okay.
If you shout outyou get a verbal reminder.
You go to yellow. Yeah.
And then I say it happens again.
I forgot what it was.
It was like verbal reminder.
One of them's.
There's one there.
Then it's call home.
That all.
Okay. So it's it's sort of a visualbut anyway.
But everyone sees it right.The whole class okay. So.
(25:18):
Oh no. They're gone. Okay. Go.
I'm glad to hear that. Okay.
Because I knew you were going to be gladthey're gone.
Because I saw your postureand your breathing.
You saw you start breathing.
Here's the reason
for some kids.They're going to be okay with that.
And especially the ones who can dowell anyway.
They're going to actually feel good.
I'm in the blue.
Yeah.
The kids who tend to not be in the blue.
(25:40):
This is not that they don'twant to be in the blue like something.
And I'm not giving them a pass.
Like it's okay not to be in the blue.
They need supportso that they can be there.
But when they have a visual representationthat everyone else can see.
Yeah, that I mean, they're
either going to be anxious about it,they might be angry about it,
they might shut down and be like,I don't care, but they care.
You know,everybody wants to do well, know.
(26:02):
And it's probably going to dysregulatedthose kids
more then then, you know,you have seen it.
So seeing it.
You know, but it's okayfor you to privately have some idea of
where they're at and maybe go to the kidthat's in the lower color saying,
what's going on, you know, and really havethat, that genuine again, the genuine
(26:24):
curiosity, not the what's going on,not the harsh what's heck's going on here?
It's it's happening,you know, that genuine.
And that's where the relationshipis going to carry you.
And I know you have thesegreat relationship with your students.
They love you.
And so you have that basisto ask that question.
Yeah.
You know always what about this one two.
(26:44):
The absence of a reward is punishment.
Well, that's stuck up is it not?
Because the tickets you're doinga good job.
Here's a ticket.
You're walking quietly in line.
Here's a ticket.
You were picking up.
Trash is not yours. Here's a ticket.
But now the.
Without the ticket, will they do it rightor are they being punished
(27:06):
because there's no reward?That one was like.
Yeah, I mean things I guess
the schools,
behavior management schools, I mean, goingback to the 70s and probably before
that, it was always very behavioristbased, reward punishment based.
And then we kind of droppedthe punishment stuff. Yeah.
But did we because like,this is what I'm saying.
The absence of the rewardis, yeah, the sense of punishment.
(27:28):
And so we can affect behaviorthrough rewards and punishment.
The question is what's your end game
if you're just looking to get themto comply in the moment.
And sometimes you need to listen,I get it.
There are times when it's a useful tool,
but if if you're a real bigger goalis to help them to self manage
(27:50):
to take responsibility,to be accountable, to choose
better rewards and punishmentsaren't the way to go.
And so much of what I say in the the athlete book
or the coaching bookis about the importance of autonomy.
Like and buildingcompetence and confidence.
(28:11):
So competence and confidencecome from trying something hard,
maybe failing,trying again, succeeding. And
so we need to kind of set kids up.
This is the Vygotsky stuff right.
You know the scaffolding.
We want them to be ablewe want them challenged not so far up here
(28:32):
that they're going to failand never get there.
That's just demoralizing.
But we don't want to just be handing out
awards just because you showed uplike they used to be.
Some challenge that they can masterand feel great about themselves,
that builds the confidence.
So these are the things that I'm seeingin the teens and young adults
(28:52):
now that I think is underlyingwhat if people talk about
a mental health crisis right now?
I have some thoughts onwhat's happened over the last decade,
and it's multifactorial, but some of it is
they've lost the opportunityto take those risks, fail
or succeed and build the competence,particularly around,
(29:15):
social socializing and social skillsand things like that.
And I think that'swhy we're seeing a lot of the anxiety.
I had a couple kidshand me a paper and they're like,
I'm like,that one's wrong, Derek, don't put the ax.
And I was like, whoa,that stood out to happen recently.
Years. Don't put the ax, don't put the ax.
I'm like, well,you're going to go back and change it.
And then I could get this though.
(29:37):
They didn't want the ax anywherethat's vile.
Or they don't use red pensbecause that's a bad color.
Or like, they,
it impacts them a little more.
But no, we teach childrenthat to fail is to learn,
and that perfection is not expectedor possible.
Yet our reward practice sendsa contradictory message.
(29:58):
Another highlight.
I talk about failure.
I put on the board, fail, firstattempt and learning.
I love that. Yeah, and then I write.
Mistakes are expected, respected.
Inspected. Right.
You're going to make the mistake.
We're going to respectbecause people make them,
(30:19):
and then we're going to look into itto see what you did wrong.
So we don't yeah. Do it again.
Expected respected.
But I love that.
And some kids just haveperfectionistic tendencies.
And it didn't come from the parents.
It didn't come from the teacher.
It's sort of the way their brain is wired.
But the more we can send the the messagejust generally that like this
is part of growth, you cannot growwithout some failure along the way
(30:41):
because that means you didn't take a risk.
I know I just said that today was like,
if you go through lifeand all your questions are easy,
you know, learning anything,there's no struggle.
It's like lifting up weightsthat are free light.
You're never going to get a muscle.That's right.
You need that challenge to,you know, that's when the learning
takes place and they're likeoh I'm giving them that pump up.
Before the CNT or notthe CMT the aspect testing.
(31:04):
Yeah I'm giving themlike the Vince Lombardi.
This is our Super Bowl.
We've been practicing all year.
We're going to show the worldhow smart we are.
And they're like yeah you can do it.
That's that. Coachingdoes that good. It is coaching.
And then that'sthe high expectation to you.
You're showing them your belief in them.
So you're you know you got the barand you're saying I know you can meet this
(31:27):
and we've donethis. We've put in the work.
Now let's do it. Yeah.
No, that's so interesting.
I'm really excited.
Witness and wonderabout sourcing an educator and fabric
author.
Do do you read another book too? Right.Don't you have a couple more?
I don't know, I'm working on one for itspecifically for athletes now.
Okay.It's going to be sort of an offshoot.
(31:47):
Why are you out of book?
I mean, I know that was written.This is a magazine.
I've written.
Yeah, I have journal, peer reviewedjournals and things like that.
And then trauma is a goes.
Yeah, I don't read it, fit into it.
And either book. 32 and 38.
Trauma is an interesting thing.
So like I said, I've been I've beenteaching about that for 20 plus years.
(32:09):
And I have my take on it has changed.
So I could tell you about thatif you like.
I think it's it was a great thingthat we recognized that there's trauma
underlying people's sometimes maladaptivebehaviors, addiction, things like that.
That is amazing that we can get thatbecause our our experiences
always change who we are.
They change our mindset,our worldview, our nervous system.
(32:31):
They shape us. Right?
So it's good to know that
where I think we've gonea little too far off the rails at this
point is everybody is identifyingwith their trauma story,
and that's not a good place to be.
So it's good to understand
what's happened to you and how it's shapedyou and how it's formed. You.
But the questionI like to say is, now what?
(32:54):
Because if all you dois repeat your trauma story over and over
and use it as a reason
for why I am the way I am, especiallyif you don't want to be that way,
then it's just a storythat's that's actually limiting you.
Gotcha.
So it's not about ignoring diminishingsomeone's suffering or anything like that.
Like totally not acknowledgethat and understand how it's maybe shaped
(33:15):
your beliefs or even your nervous systembecause it does.
But it's more like,okay, now what do I want?
Who do I want to be?How might I want to be different?
And so much of what I write about,especially in the second book
in Fabric Book, is about habit formationand procedural learning.
And like
you are, what you repeatedly do.
(33:37):
I think that's been attributedto Aristotle, though.
Someone told me he didn't actually said,
I don't know who said it originally,but you are what you repeatedly do.
So if you don't like who you are,you're not stuck.
It is not determined,but it is going to take some intentional,
deliberate practiceof something different.
And that's what I try to get across to theespecially
(34:01):
the young adults that I work with,whether that's around their mental health.
It might be around their athleticperformance, their well-being in general.
It's what are you going to do differently?
I have a storyI could share, if you'd like, in there.
One of my, it's it's in this one,but I have a friend from, you.
Know, a page. Chapter. 15.
(34:22):
It would be in the intentionalitychapter, and that is chapter.
I don't know,I think that's chapter five.
So I have a
story that I've been sharing in my classin my college classes for a while now.
Whenever I talk about procedural learning,procedural memory,
and just habit formation in general.
(34:43):
And I wanted to put it in the bookand I was like, well, I need to ask
permission before I write this,because this is a true story.
And one of my childhood friends.
So I, I messaged her through Facebook.
So Roseanne, it's Roseanne.
And I said, one, do you remember this?
Tell me if it's accurate.
Because, you know, we're talking about 35,40 years ago.
She says. I do remember that.
I love that you remember that.
(35:04):
And I said, okay, I would really loveto use this in my book.
Do I, you know,do I have your permission to. Yes.
And I said,would you like to be named because I can
I cannot use a nameor I could use a pseudonym.
She said, no, I want you to use my name.So her real name is Roseanne.
Shout out to Roseanne.Shout out to Roseanne.
And so this is what happened when I wasin elementary school with Roseanne.
She was a fantastic gymnast,and whenever we were in PE class,
(35:27):
we would do the,you know, the floor tumbling exercises.
And most of us are doing forwardrolls backward rolls, cartwheels.
And she'd be doing, you know,multiple back handsprings that things.
And we would all sit aroundand watch her perform,
and I would sit thereand little all of her strength
and her fearlessnessand her skill and talent
and a little envy, just like, oh,I wish I could do that, you know?
(35:50):
And then a few years later,we're in junior high.
She was always a great athlete,very strong, very fast.
And I don't know why we're doing this.
Maybe you could tell me we were.
We'd go out for P.E.
and every student would get timed how fastthey could run the short distance.
I don't remember what it was,but we had to sprint over at a time,
and it was knownthat Roseanne would be the top female,
(36:11):
maybe even the top across everyonebecause she was so fast.
But the funniest part of the story to meis that my junior high didn't have fields.
It didn't have a track.It didn't even really have.
Much like grassy area.
It was right on the road with a sidewalk.
And so this test took place
on a sandy, uneven sidewalk.
(36:33):
Okay, that we had to sprint down toto the timing.
Okay. So we're going along.
And well. It's not going to end well.
So we're watching one by one.
Roseanne takes her markand we're all expecting her to win.
So we're all watching from the grass
and she takes off like a shot.
And she's like 4 or 5 stridesin, just really going.
And the tip of her sneakercatches on the uneven sidewalk,
(36:56):
and she starts heading headfirsttoward the sandy cement sidewalk.
And it's one of those moments where you'rekind of looking through your fingers.
You know it's coming, and I swear to you,like time just slowed down.
It went in slow motion for me.
I'm expectingjust blood and skin everywhere,
and, And so.
(37:16):
Oh, and now the other thing is,what happens, I ask you, what do
most of us do in that situationif we unexpectedly fall?
Our habitual sort of defaultmode is exactly hands out tight brace.
Try to try to minimize the impact. Right.
And that's why so many people breaktheir wrists are their ulna radius.
(37:37):
So that's what I'm expecting.
Instead, Roseanne tucks her chinround her back
rolls, barelyeven touches the ground, pops right back
up, and just keeps running and like,it was like nothing happened.
She it was almost.
And we're all standing therewith our mouths agape,
because what just happened hereand that memory has never left my brain.
(37:58):
So when I started studying psychologyand I was reading about
procedural learning and procedural memoryand embodying a skill, I was like,
that's what happened therefor for 99% of the population,
the default would be to to contractand put your arms out and try to brace.
And it would not end well.
Yeah, but she was used to.
(38:18):
Flipping it.
Flipping and rolling,you know, flying toward a mat,
rolling, coming right back up.
So for her it was instinctual.
Yeah. And natural.
She didn't. She.No time to think about that.
That just it just happened.
And so I always use that as an example of,you know,
when we talk about procedural memoryor procedural learning,
but it's essentiallyit's like you embody a skill.
(38:40):
The more you do something, it'swho you are.
Okay.
So if you don't like who you are,
first become aware of what it isthat you don't like.
Is it the way you think about something?
Is ithow you show up? Is it how you react?
Is it some behavior you have?
Okay, let's be honest with yourself thereand then
what can you do differentlyand start practicing that.
(39:02):
And just like you would,
you know you get the advice to your kids,you're not going to do it well at first.
You're going to react the other wayfor a while until you don't,
until this becomes your new default mode,just like Roseanne.
And you will roll really good.
Yeah, she put that in there and let's see.
Never losing stride.
Yeah. Did she still win?
(39:23):
She did. She did. Yeah.
And it's funny that she remembers that.
I mean, I think anyone in my junior highwould remember that story.
So. Sure.
Like because we were just.
Yeah, she's about to get dusted. Yeah.
And then all of a sudden ugly.
Yeah. Wow. Roseanne. That's talent.
Yeah.
It's impressive.
That's like. Reminds me of some guy.
(39:44):
He joined the JC League and he just keepsgetting better and better.
He should be practicing really hard.
He practices day and night.
He's always on the clock. In the bookfor that.
I don't listen.
Used to not be ableto make the playoffs to me.
And now he's hitting three pointers.
What chapter is that? Yeah.
He hit a reverselayup on me the other day.
(40:07):
I was like, he's going to miss.
And all of a suddenhe finished and I'm like, oh my God.
See he got me.
Yeah Jason no that's awesome.
Before we move onthese are fantastic books.
They can be found out I.
Amazon. Amazon. Yep.
Barnes and Nobles to.
Not right now, but yeah you can search online.
(40:27):
Name is probably the easiest wayto find out about
you can find by the title if.
You and you really don't have a website.
I don't I should put one together.
I have a Facebook. Businesswith this podcast.
I know I have a Facebook business page.Okay.
We can put it there.I should get a website.
I have an Instagram,but it's barely population.
So I know someone that does websites.
(40:47):
Well, I think I need to.I was like, I need to ask.
Podcast guest blue Jean creative.
Okay. Ali Bell Ali Baluchi.
All right, check it out.
She was episode I'm going to look her up.
Ali Baluchi blue jeans.Tell her I sent you.
I will check outfriends of e-commerce website.
She just did ours.
Okay. Really nice. Okay.
Interactive. It pops.
There's bouncing and movements and flows.
(41:09):
There's bars going across.
I really I do needI do need something I said,
but one of my favorite things to dois to consult.
And, you know, like I said,I usually get through word of mouth, but,
it would be nice for peopleto know that it's available.
Can you pick your baby?
Which one do you like?
I mean, I'm loving the coaching oneright now because that's where my mind is.
(41:29):
I am coaching, I,
I just, just did, some consultation with,
all the head coaches at Holy Crossthat that's a Division one school.
That was pretty remarkable.
The former.
Alma mater.
My. Yes, and I wasI met the ad a year ago.
We were talking about it.
He said, you know,I'd love to see the book.
He read it.
(41:50):
Yeah.
To see all those sticky notesyou have in there.
He had like 20 times that amount.
And he said, I really want to order thisfor all the head coaches
and their assistants.
And would you come in and talk?
And that's my favorite thing to dobecause it's more about just hearing
what they want some feedback onand kind of going from there.
(42:11):
And so I was able to talk to many of them.
I don't know if you saw,
but the baseball teamjust won the Patriot League last night.
They beat Army. Wow.
So all because they.
Don't know
that I'm not going to take credit card onjust saying I'm very proud of them.
But but we talked about it. It was funny.
We talked about some thingsin that meeting and that were, you know,
(42:32):
that were he was wondering how to approachand kind of cool off.
Well, congratulations. Holy Cross.
And these are wonderful books.
I find them really engagingand educational.
Demand personalizing autograph.
I don't mind at all. Let's do it.
Take.
Yeah.
We'll get into your coaching.
(42:53):
So you coach, cheerleader.
I coached Trinity. A Trinity Collegecheerleading team. Yeah.
And I've been coachingcheerleading on and off since the 80s.
Like.
Like I said, I started when I was.
When did I get a little Fenian here?
Oh. Two. Feeney.
Keep up the good work.You're a great teacher.
Well, you. Put too much pressure.
(43:14):
All right,we'll do that after I got my autograph.
I love it. Okay.
Yeah, I coached in the same rec programthat I started in.
My family's a big football family.
My uncle was the coach of the high school,so we all did the
the rec football and cheerleading.I was the only girl. Yep.
So it was it was a given that I was goingto cheer for the football.
(43:35):
But I loved it.
I met a lot of friends doing it,and I ended up
cheering in high school and college.And then you're like a base or a flier or.
What do you.
I started as a flierbecause I used to be very short.
I was only 411 when I was a freshmanin high school, and then I grew
eight inches, and I became a base. So.
We Trinity, who just won the championship,they did.
Your girls cheerleader.
(43:55):
Yes. For that, that it was.Is it a ring or trophy arena.
Not going to ring.
No. But it'swe had. The championship game. We didn't.
They didn't fly us out to Indiana.
No okay I didn't, but.
Congrats to the team.
Yeah. It's just so fun to be right there.
You know they're there at the base line.
I'm right behind the table basically.
You know and I know all the the boysI've gotten to know them over the years
(44:18):
and it's really fun to watch them.
But I know I was practicing with Jasonone time in the driveway
and you had like a team meetingor so I saw.
It was showing up. Was it the preseason?
Yeah, I think that was ourthat was probably our beginning of season.
Just team bonding.
Yeah, yeah.
But, I yeah, I have the overall.
(44:38):
Building rapport and relationships.
For sure.
We do a lot of that.
Yeah, I talk about that in the book.
It's greatwhen you do things with your athletes
or they do things togetherthat are not sport related.
Just just have some fun, you know,get to know each other.
Different in a different way.
I'm always amazedhow much talent my girls have that are.
(45:01):
That is different from cheer.
I mean, they're great in their athleticismand their dance, but a lot of them sing
and they do theater and they they'rein all these different clubs and things.
And I try as much as I canto show up for them when they have
their performances that are,you know, there's so many of them. But
I, I that's ki I, I just attended
(45:23):
Kids Ninja Warrior competition.
I've been to plays soccer games.
Yeah.
You I mean, you have all your kidsthat go on and then you're going park.
If I walk the dog or someone'splaying a baseball game there.
Yeah. So it's great.
I just saw someonewe podcast at Luna Pizza recently.
(45:44):
I saw a former student,
and I went to her gymnastics,and I'm like, you still doing gymnastics?
She's like, no,but I'm doing track and field. Yeah.
So it was great to catch up.
It's good to it's good to have us to tryto be a scholar athlete in your life.
Yeah, right. Like I'mstill trying to be a scholar athlete.
I just want
to exercise and also hit the academics,
(46:06):
you know, read, teach, learn,learn something new every day.
I tell all my students,I say it on the podcast.
I'm a lifelong learner,so I'm really enjoying this conversation.
I'm learning something new.
And, and,you know, I work at work at the gym,
work out at the JCC and play hoop, swim,
swim a mile this morning.
(46:27):
That's impressive.
Oh, yeah.
Yeah.
5 a.m. club new member.
No, just oh, at the JCC.
Now she he's he's a member,but I'm not. Oh.
Have you ever tried.
No, I'm not a swimmer, but I membership.
But not at 5 a.m..
I do workout. Yeah.
Like I have that at the J. Yeah, yeah.
Racquetball work.
I am the strengthand conditioning coach for my team.
(46:49):
We don't have one, so.
Oh, I have to, keep abreast of thethe latest,
you know, ways to train them for safety.
You know.
Is there a a competitionor a winning for cheerleading.
There?
I mean, there's not a lot in New Englandfor colleges in terms of camps.
There's one called the New EnglandCheerleading Association that we go to.
I think there's a couple in Bostonthat are open.
(47:13):
There's it's we'd have to get into cheerin more depth for you to get this,
but there's a lot of all star
competitions that will invite collegesif you want to go.
But the big ones, the nationalsthat are in Daytona, we're not there yet.
We don't have that kind of money.
First of all, and we could get therebecause there are
other teams at the same levelthat we're at that go.
(47:36):
But I would want to be a notch higherbefore
we were going to make that commitmentto get there.
It's just a really big undertaking.
We're a Nescac team,
so, there's not a lot of cheerleadingin Nescac.
There's only, I think Wesleyan and Tufts,out of all the teams, even have programs.
Oh, wow.
So, it's and it's a new program.
(47:59):
It's only three years old.
Oh, you're the originator.
Well, I didn't start it because some kidsstarted it as a club in 2021.
It was a club at that point.
And then in 2022 it became a club sport
and they hired a coach. So.
And I heard about itand I'd wanted to get in.
I had coached at Conard for many years.
(48:20):
Oh yeah, I remember. That. Yeah.
I'm still in touch with all those kids.
Yep. Remember things.
And I taken some time offand I'd been itching to get back into it.
I even thoughtabout going back to high school
coaching, which is that's an undertakingbecause there's a lot of time,
you know, in college.
Yeah, Iwould say it is, depends on the college.
This was, you know, but,you know, we have breaks and,
(48:43):
we don't travel with the team,so we reach our home
games, home football gamesor on travel of the way games.
We do.
We do cheer for, men's and women'sbasketball.
Says a lot of those games.
But, yeah, at the high school level,it's even more because you're doing
you're doingprobably traveling for football.
You're doing all the boys and girls gamesand there's multiple competitions.
(49:04):
So it's a lot.
But I was really grateful to get into itat Trinity because,
you know,I know these kids as students, but
to know them as a coach, you justyou get to know them even more deeply.
You know, I'm spending ten, 12 hoursa week with them,
but intensely, and it's just,
you know, they're like my daughters, like,see what might be going coed next year.
(49:26):
I found out we have some menthat are interested, so we'll see.
You might have a coed team.
Nice desert jacket. They are.
They are on hand.
Tossing and catching them. Yeah.
It's just it's just such a fun sport.
I you know there is a lot of athleticism.
It's not always appreciatedof how much there is
(49:47):
but it also has especially for game day.
I love football and basketball so I lovejust being in in the thick of it.
And then we get to I also love music,so I get to choreograph.
Yeah, routinesand then put out half times or sidelines.
So it's, it's, it sort of touches onall the things that bring me joy.
(50:08):
Yeah. And,
and I get to teach all those life skillslike you're doing with your students.
But I'm doing it through. This yes. Way.
I coached the Boys and Girls clubs
high school basketball team in Waterbury.
Made it to the state championship.Oh, Preston.
Lost to Hartford's Boys and Girls Club.
It was supposed to be 18 and under.
(50:29):
They had a 20 year old on the team.Yeah, I'm not bitter.
They got a. Ringer.
It was like 17 years ago.
I'm not bitter. It's
now coachingand teaching is off and fantastic.
I coached all my daughters.
I coached girls soccer.
I was the best kindergarten soccer coach.
Motivated? Yeah.
Then you got to second grade.You had to know positions and stuff.
I was like, oh,I don't know soccer that well.
(50:51):
Basketball up until eighth grade. Yup.
Softball up until.
Now. What sports did you play?
I played college.
I played baseball and football in.
In basketball?
Yeah, in high school.
Nothing in college. Intramurals.
My wife played basketball for southern.
That's great.That's why I married her. Yeah.
(51:11):
So sheshe has a thousand more points than me.
I was great, so no.
And I. Yeah.
Jason, shout out to your guy Jason.
Great great guy for future Futurepodcast guest.
I met him.
We both had the kids at the Sandboxat Oak Park, remember?
(51:31):
So this is what I remember.First time ever heard your name.
Yeah. Go ahead. No,I remember he came home.
He had taken Luke. Might have taken al.
I can't remember how old they were,but Luke was still a toddler.
Yeah.
Went over to Wolcott and he came back.
Seimetz.
Great guy,really down to earth, great guy.
I was like, right,because we'd only been at West Hartford.
Yeah. He was. Yeah.
So the guy. Chadwick at the. Park. Yeah.
(51:54):
And that was the beginning of it.
Then I saw him,so I saw him at the park with our kids.
I would, I lived across the street.
So I'd bring my girlsseven in the morning.
Twin girls like what am I going to do.
That's why we moved there for get park,get the babies.
My wife was pregnant.
Yeah.
There was like the school,there was like, oh, we can go to the mall.
We can go over here, walk it.
Park was the huge. So I was there a lot.
(52:17):
And Jason, then I saw him at SedgwickMiddle School and an open run.
Right.
We both didn't belong therebecause the talent was way too good.
And then fast forward eyes.
Were like 20, oh, 20. Yeah.
I said, you need to find over 50 plus.
Okay.
So now we're in the same league at the JC.
Had a couple former guests, sonBilly Markowitz, Ben Few club.
(52:41):
Scott.
Andy, Jason's got to come.
Now, he's a good guy, so he's all right.
He's all right. He'sall right. Well, he's a keeper.
Yeah, yeah. Keep him around. Yep.
We talked all this teacher talk.
Do you have a favorite teacher,a teacher that inspired you, or.
I have so many favorites.
(53:01):
But I was thinking about that, and I hadone particular memory pop into my mind,
because when I was in junior high,there was a social studies teacher, Mr.
Winslow.
And what I remember about him,and I think probably all the kids felt
this way, is henot only was he kind and safe,
he was funnyand he just kept things light.
(53:25):
And he was a serious teacher.
We learned,but he was just always having fun.
And we had these,
like, progress notes,but they were really.
You got them if you were in trouble.
They, they call them progress notes, butit was more of like, you know, your child
has been doing X, Y, and Z, and here'swhat needs to happen, blah, blah, blah.
(53:45):
And me being like the rulefollowing perfect student.
I never got one, a real one.
But he one time wrote me a funny joke one,
and I found it a couple of years ago
when I was moving, that I kept itbecause I loved it so much.
And I just thought about todayhe he wrote, you know,
something about me throwing darts at himand him having to keep ducking.
(54:07):
And he signed it.
Frank and Stein and he dated it 1849.
And then I looked at it,and now this is, you know, early 80s.
Okay.
So do you remember the showWelcome Back, Kotter?
Yeah. Okay.With the sweat hogs and Epstein.
So I showed my mom because I thoughtit was hilarious, but then I signed it.
(54:28):
Susan's mother,the way Epstein used to sign the notes.
Epstein's mother. Gotcha.
So I kept that. And I still think of him.
But I had so many. Great.
I mean, I remember my kindergarten teacherwho is just so warm
and nurturing my, a math teacherI had in high school.
Ms.. Peterson.I'm still in touch with her now.
She's still teaching.
(54:48):
I think she's retired, but gone back insome other role as a teacher.
Had her multiple times.
Loved math. So, yeah, I mean,
I could go on, but.
And then you're ABC Eagle.
I am ABC Eagle.That's where I did my grad school.
So I did my master's in counseling there,and then a doctorate in developmental.
And I taught there for several years.
(55:09):
So we got to go to NotreDame's coming to that.
Okay. Ithey come in here this year. Okay, fine.
I could probably get us a box. Let's go.
We'll say, let's go.
Let's do it. Be a good friend. Come.
That'd be great.
Huge Notre Dame fan.And I know they're coming.
And I went already once before.
I'm going to go on.
I'm going to look at the.
Did you know the day of hand?
I'll look it out. I'll look it up. Okay.
(55:30):
But I went there.I got a picture of the Doug Flutie statue.
Yeah.
And then I went over to the Boston fans.
They were kids.I was younger, yeah, on my guys.
I had Notre Dame helmet, shirt.
I'm going to lean into you.
I want you to do whatever you want.Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So there's a lot of fingersand but it's a great picture.
And I'm like,this big 50 kids behind me. Give me.
(55:50):
I got to introduce you to my cousin Phil.
Yeah.
Who went to Notre Dameand is a huge diehard.
Hey, let's go. So.We can make the drive. I'm.
He'll. Come on. He lives in Florida.But he would come up for that.
Okay, I know he. Would make it.
It might make it a group effort. Yeah.
I, drove out there three times.
I saw them play.
Did I see? Yeah. Matty ice.
Matt Ryan was a quarter he see.
(56:12):
So I saw him in NotreDame as well okay I saw Stanford out there
Notre BC out there UConnwhen UConn one. Yep.
So no BC let's do it.
All right. Wonderful chatting with you.
Did I miss anything?
Do you have any recommendationsTV shows, podcasts?
Any questions for the best?
(56:32):
The trial? No.
Because I love all things Boston.
No. I'm just, you know, I'mreally thankful for you for doing this.
And, and just being who you are.
I mean, you really show up for these kids
in so many different ways,and they're lucky to have you.
Thank you. So much. Yeah.
So, a big shout out to to youand all the teachers and coaches.
It's not an easy job.
(56:53):
Some of the most important work out there.
So yeah. Yeah.
But even you mentioned at the beginning
my name is Eric Feeney, founderand president of Friends of Feeney.
Our mission is to help
children and families in need assistanceafter heartbreak or tragedy.
I use this podcast.
Feeney talks with friends,and I talk to wonderful people
in the communitythat are doing great things.
And Susan, you do great things again.
Author, coach, professor,
(57:15):
mom, wife, psychologist.
And do it all.
And you can see what the color of my shirtbefore we go.
All right.Are you next, man. Before we go. Oh, boy.
Before we go.
Oh, gosh. Okay.
All right. Jason Ryan. This boy.
Yeah, that was heartbreaking for us,but it's all right.
Next year. As always. Next year.
Well, again, you're a good friend.
(57:36):
Our motto is be a good friend.
Pick up trash, hold the door.
And you're doing great things.
So thank you again for chatting.I learned so much.
Thank you.
Sarah, we got a witness in Wonder fabric.
Go out and check it out on Amazon.
Wonderful author. Great person.
Three will say be a good friend.
123 be a good friend.
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