March 13, 2024 • 29 mins
2024 is an election year, and democracy itself seems like it’s on the ballot. That’s why for our second season we’ve selected a theme: Women Leading Democracy. Throughout this season, we’ll hear from women and feminist allies about how and why women can and should lead in our country.
There is no better way to start than with women’s reproductive rights, which have taken significant hits at the national level since the Dobbs Supreme Court decision. So NOW National President Christian F. Nunes is pleased to speak with Heather Booth, the legendary civil rights and womens’ rights activist who founded The Jane Collective, helping women to receive healthcare, counseling, and abortions before Roe v. Wade made abortions nationally legal. Christian will also speak with Dr. Sophia Yen, whose company, Pandia Health, provides mail-order birth control across the nation.
Christian, Heather, and Sophia will talk about women’s reproductive health in a post-Roe world, and the action that we all can take to make sure everyone has control over their bodies.
NOW's Take Action Checklist - https://now.org/take-action-checklist/
Listen to new episodes of Feminism NOW released every other Wednesday. To find out more about the National Organization for Women, visit our website.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
- This is just a note.
This episode does discuss abortion
and touches on sexual assault.
So please make sure you'retaking care of yourself
and your needs when you listen.
(gentle upbeat music)
It is 2024, but sometimes the news
feels like it belongs ina much earlier century,
(00:22):
especially for women.
We continue to fightfor economic equality,
even as layoffs and rising inflation
increase our everyday struggles.
Even though the murderof George Floyd in 2020
brought to the forefront issues
of police brutalityagainst people of color,
little has changed.
A seemingly endlesscycle of school shootings
(00:42):
leaves us afraid to sendour children to school,
while our economic precarity leaves us
struggling for childcare.
Rising drug costs mean that
while medicines can achieveextraordinary things,
many women are bankruptby healthcare costs.
States pass bills that pretendto protect girls and women,
but in reality are designed to attack
(01:03):
and diminish the LGBTQIA+ people among us.
And after the fall of Roe versus Wade,
our reproductive freedomsare being steadily taken away
state by state, leavingour very lives at risk.
In times like these, itis all the more critical
that women and their allies
from all walks of life come together
(01:25):
and work together to protect each other,
and that means protecting democracy
and securing our equal rights as citizens.
(upbeat music)
Welcome to "Feminism NOW,"
featuring leaders and activists
who are on the front lines of the fight
for constitutionalequality, economic justice,
(01:47):
and reproductive rights.
I'm Christian F. Nunes,
the president of the NationalOrganization for Women.
And the theme of season two of our show
will be women leading democracy.
We will interview leaders
and experts about thecritical role of women
and feminist allies in thedemocracy of our nation,
and cover the issues thataffect women the most,
(02:09):
childcare and voting rights,
reproductive justice and gun violence,
the rise of generation Z,
and the need for healthcare for all,
from affordable prescriptionsto gender affirming care.
We're talking to guests aboutall these priority issues,
and we also want to hear from you
about what's on your mind.
You can do that by sending us an email
(02:30):
at feminismnow@now.org.
We're excited to have youwith us on this journey.
2023 should have beena year of celebration.
On January 22nd, it would've been 50 years
since the passage of Roe versus Wade,
the Supreme Court decision
that guaranteed pregnantpersons a right to choose.
(02:51):
But instead, what did we witness?
It was a day of mourning.
In 2022, the Supreme Courtreversed that decision,
throwing away thedecision of whether or not
people would become pregnant
have control over theirbodies back to the states.
What's followed is a slew of bans
as states try to restrictthe pregnant person's right
(03:12):
to have an abortion to six weeks,
or to no right at all, in some states.
Meanwhile, in a testament
to how popular reproductive rights are,
other states have passed protections,
creating a patchworkof reproductive freedom
and healthcare access across this country.
So it's fitting thatfrom our first episode
of this new season, season two,
(03:33):
that we should speak to one of the legends
of the reproductive rightsmovement, Heather Booth.
Heather is a civil rights activist
who has devoted her lifeto equality for everyone.
While in college in 1969,
she formed the undergroundabortion service
the Jane Collective
in connection with thecivil rights movement,
(03:53):
to help women receive healthcare,
counseling and abortion services.
When Roe versus Wade was first passed,
it seemed like the Jane Collective
wouldn't be needed anymore.
But now, look at us.
In 2024, it seems it mighthave been needed again.
So everyone help me welcome Heather Booth.
Heather, thank you for joining us.
(04:14):
- I am so glad to be here,
because I'm with now both Christian Nunes,
the dynamic leader of theremarkable organization
the National Organization for Women
that was the forefrontof the women's movement.
I came out of women's liberation,
but then joined with NOW,
and I've been a supporter ever since.
(04:37):
So glad to be with you
and the broad leadership you provide,
as well as the audienceof those listening in,
who are also people who are fighting
for freedom, and justice,and equality every day.
- Yes, Heather, thank you so much.
So we're gonna get started.
You have so much to offerand so much you can give.
(04:57):
But I wanna just kind of take us back
to this time when we could talk about
when you first foundedJane Collective in 1969.
A little bit about whatmotivated you to start this,
this important movement,this important service.
Can you tell us a little bit about that?
- What life was like before 1965,
(05:19):
and certainly before 1973,
before Roe became the law of the land,
there are unfortunately somany horror stories to share.
There were septic abortionwards in many hospitals
because women were dying.
They either had done injury to themselves
or were injured by someone,
sometimes unscrupulous people
taking advantage of women or people who,
(05:41):
because it wasn't legal.
On my college campus, a friend of mine
had been raped at knife point in her bed,
and when we went to student health
to get a gynecological exam,
she was given a lectureon her promiscuity,
and was told student health
didn't cover gynecological exams.
But because people organized,
(06:02):
not only was Roe becomingthe law of the land,
but now of course student health
would cover gynecological exams.
And rather than being given a lecture,
one would be given supportive care,
as well as safety, security,
to see that it would be less frequent,
more rare that peoplemight be raped and abused.
(06:23):
In 1965, I had just returned
from the MississippiFreedom of Summer Project.
I was part of the civil rights program
in the Student NonviolentCoordinating Committee.
We went to Mississippi.
Many of you know the story
when northern students were recruited
to support courageous African Americans
who were struggling for the right to vote.
And during that summer, tragically,
three of the young volunteers
(06:45):
were killed at the hands of the Klan.
But because we organizedeven in that tragedy,
within a year we had a voting rights act.
And that's the basic lesson I learned,
which is when you organize,you can change this world.
And I particularly learnedwe need to organize
with love at the center,building a beloved community.
(07:08):
So I had returned from Mississippi,
I was living in Chicago at the time,
and a friend of mine toldme his sister was pregnant
and not ready to have a child.
Not sure what she would do.
Was she even suicidal?
And could I find a doctorto perform an abortion?
I hadn't really ever thoughtabout the issue before.
It was a more innocent time,
(07:29):
and maybe I was a more innocent person.
And I said I would do what I could.
So I went to the medical armof the civil rights movement,
the Medical Committee for Human Rights,
and I found a remarkable doctor,
Dr. T. R. M. Howard.
I made the arrangement with Dr. Howard,
and I thought that was it.
I thought he would take care
of this one time act for a friend.
(07:52):
But after the procedurewhich was successful,
word spread from someoneelse, not from me,
and I got another call.
I made that arrangement with Dr. Howard,
and then I got another call.
And I realized we had to set up a system.
And so I learned from Dr.Howard what was involved.
You know, I had neverhad an abortion myself.
(08:12):
I've never faced the situation.
But I had to learn what was involved.
What do you do beforehand?
What do you do after?
Is there any pain?
What should we look out for?
How much does it cost?
Can we negotiate on the price?
Oh, it's $500?
Well, could we get two peoplein for the price of one?
Could we get three peoplefor the price of one?
And more and more peoplestarted coming through.
(08:35):
At some point because somany were coming through,
rather than giving outmy personal phone number,
we publicized and said,
"Pregnant? Don't wanna be?
Call Jane."
- Wow.
Let me just start off bysaying I love the fact
that this story starts with love,
and you said that, itstarted because loved someone
(08:55):
and you wanted to be therefor them, and you helped.
And that connection to love
and then the connection
to the intersectional involvement
of these movements, right,
which we're still seeing today, right?
So much of this is stillconnected to different movements,
and the need to say, we have to organize,
we have to be together.
These movements are overlapping,
(09:17):
and two different movements came together
to work for the greater good.
And if we cannot learnthe lesson from this,
I just have to,
I have to really point this out right now.
If we cannot learn the lessonfrom what you just said
about how two movements came together
for the greater good, whenare we gonna learn the lesson?
- You are so right.
(09:37):
All our movements are connected.
Audre Lorde said, "We don'tlead single issue lives."
And all our issues are connected.
But this is the most intimatedecision in a person's life
about when, or whether, orwith whom we have a child,
and no politician shouldinterfere with that decision.
(10:00):
And yet Donald Trump is glad.
He claims credit that he's overturned Roe,
and denied this not only to the people
in 20 states where abortionis now either banned
or under such restrictive laws
that it's inaccessible for so many,
but they really wantto see a universal ban.
(10:23):
And that's one of the issues
that's at stake in the election.
They're even now tryingto ban mifepristone,
the way to have a medical abortion.
And they're having politicians
and judges with no medical background
to make a medical decision,
and say that the Foodand Drug Administration
(10:44):
can't make a determination
that this very safe product
that's in been on the market
for over 20 years can be available.
And that's another case that's coming up
before the Supreme Court.
- It's quite interestinghow the politicization
of reproductive rights has come up,
and how, like you just said,
(11:05):
people who have no earthly knowledge,
no medical background,
don't even really have the knowledge
of even how the anatomy works, right?
Some of the things they're thinking,
even some of these bans,you think about them,
and people are, they'recriminalizing women
for having miscarriages,
things they cannot, theirbodies cannot control.
(11:26):
And they're making thesedecisions not because they care,
not because they really truly value life,
because it's politicized,
because they want tocontrol, they want power.
It puts them in a position of power,
and that's all it's really about.
Like you said, Donald Trump's is out there
and he's sitting there claiming something
because of how he's politicizing it
(11:46):
to put himself in a position.
He doesn't care about the impact.
He doesn't care of the harm.
- You are so right thatthis has become politicized.
When I was first activeon the issue in the 1960s,
it wasn't a partisan political issue,
but it has become partisan.
During the Reagan years,there was a deal that was made
(12:07):
between the right wingof the Republican party
that was at that pointgaining greater strength,
and part of a white Christiannationalist movement.
And the two made a deal.
And the right wing of the Republican party
said that they would provide
the political apparatusand some of the money,
and the churches would provide the people.
(12:29):
They would trade our livesfor the political power
to win tax breaks for the wealthiest,
to drill wherever they wanna drill.
And this issue may noteven have been important
to some in the Republicanparty of those days,
but now it's become oneof their core messages
as they seek to take away our freedom.
(12:52):
- I think this is so importantwe really call this out,
and this is why we call ourselvesthe truth tellers, right?
Because it's importantpeople really understand
that this is not really,they wanna make it seem
like it's about something that it's not.
So, you know, when we talk about this,
and I know sometimespeople feel so helpless.
They feel like, you know, what do I do?
But one thing I wanna pointout is what we have seen
(13:15):
is what we always see with women, right,
and our allies, is thatwe don't back down.
We continue to push forward,
and that we will fight this battle,
and we will continue to make sure
that we're fighting for our rights,
and our bodies, and our autonomy.
And when we show up,
what we've seen happenover the last couple years
since overturning Row is that
(13:36):
reproductive freedom is winning, right?
When people are showing up, it's winning.
So we know people care.
We know people want their autonomy.
We will know people want their bodies.
But for those who are feeling discouraged,
and for those who are feeling helpless,
what would you tell them?
What advice would you give,
as one of the best civil rights activists
that I personally know?
- And you are my sister in this struggle,
(13:58):
and all of those listening inare our sisters and brothers,
those men of goodwill,in a shared struggle.
We know from history thatwhen we've organized,
then we can change history
and make it better,make it more inclusive,
more free, more democratic and just.
That was the truth in thecivil rights movement,
it was the truth in theearly women's movement,
(14:20):
and it will be true now.
It has been true in every referendum
that's been on the ballot.
When we've organized, we've won.
It's been true in almostevery special election.
When we've organized, we've won.
And what we need to do now is organize
with love at the centerand we also will win.
- I wish we had more time,
but you just wrapped it up for us,
(14:42):
because this is what we need.
This is what we need to motivate us
and to get us geared up is that
when we center it with love,
and we organize, we will win.
We're gonna win this.
We're gonna win thisreproductive freedom fight.
We're gonna win this voting rights fight.
We're gonna win back our democracy,
and women will be the center.
So thank you so much
for just giving us some information
(15:04):
about the work you've done
with reproductive freedomand rights and your history,
and tying it into theimportance of organizing
and leading with love.
I appreciate you and Ican't wait to have you back.
So thank you for coming on "Feminism NOW."
So for today's action now,
I'd like to talk to youabout Black maternal health.
(15:25):
Did y'all know that United States
has the highest maternal mortality rate
of any high income country,
and significant disparitiesin health outcomes?
And the crisis is only worsening.
The Black Maternal Health Momnibus Act
will address this crisisthrough historic investments
that comprehensively address
every driver of maternalmortality, morbidity,
(15:48):
and disparities in the United States.
So today, we are asking you
to please contact your representatives
in support of the BlackMaternal Health Momnibus Act.
Together, we can take action now.
And now back to our interview.
So abortion is what peopleturn to once they're pregnant.
(16:10):
But in an ideal world,people would not have
to face the stress of being pregnant,
if they didn't want to.
While there are many methods out there,
one key one is birth control
we know about, right, Dr. Yen.
And here is one of the bright spots
in reproductive health.
There are more options tobirth control than ever before.
And in 2023, the FDA approved
(16:30):
the first over-the-counterbirth control pill.
But most people still haven'tturned to their doctor
or don't have birth control access.
That access can be difficult,
which is why I'm so pleased today
to have with you today totalk about birth control,
and what this person's doing
is so great and so important.
We're gonna have Dr. Sophia Yen.
(16:52):
Dr. Yen is a board certified physician
in adolescent medicine,
and a clinical associate professor
at Stanford Medical School.
She's also the founder ofthe amazing Pandia Health,
an organization thatprovides online access
to mail order birth control.
Y'all, she's changing the game.
So please help me welcome Dr. Sophia Yen
with Pandia Health.
(17:14):
- Thank you so much for having me here.
I'm so excited to talk birth control,
and anything related to birth control,
or we like to call itestrogen-progesterone pills treatment.
- Yes, thank you so muchfor being our guest today,
and just really in this important time
as we're like seeing what's been happening
and we're almost two years post-Roe.
(17:36):
We're seeing the impactof what's happening,
and we're also seeing
how they're also attacking birth control.
So we know how importantaccess is to making sure
that those who need birth control have it,
and what Pandia Health is doing
is just so crucially important.
So Dr. Yen, can you tellus a little bit more
about why you decidedto found Pandia Health?
(17:58):
- So I was giving a talkto a bunch of doctors,
"why don't women taketheir birth control?"
And one of the top reasons it came up was,
"Didn't have it in their hand.
Didn't have time to run
to the pharmacy every single month."
And as you know, you get tothe end of that pack of pills
and you're like, "Oh my goodness,
I need to get to the pharmacy.
If I don't get there, Iwill end up pregnant."
(18:19):
Or you know, "I'll have bleeding
when I don't wanna have bleeding."
And my friend and I arelike, "We could solve this.
We will just ship women birth control
and keep shipping it to them
until they tell us to stop."
And then we ran ads, "Freebirth control delivery"
and 60% of the women that responded
didn't have a prescription.
And it's like, don't youknow you need a prescription
for the birth control pill/patch/ring?
(18:41):
And being a doctor, Icould write prescriptions,
and thus Pandia Health was born.
If you have a prescription and insurance,
just tell us where it's at, we'll ship it.
We make sure you never run out
of birth control in ourwatch, that's our goal.
You pay us nothing.
Thanks to the Affordable Care Act,
no copay, no deductible forany FDA approved birth control.
(19:01):
- Wow, that is so important.
And I also love the fact that you're able
to really make sure that people are able
to get that birth controlfor free of no cost.
Because we know people sometimes,
those on the povertyline also have problems
paying for birth control.
So being able to usethe Affordable Care Act
and be able to access birth control
(19:21):
of no cost to them isso critically important
to making sure we'rehaving economic equality
and equity, right, in this process.
- Absolutely.
And then we also have thePandia Health Birth Control Fund
to which people can donate,
but people can also apply
to cover the birth control pill.
We don't cover the patch or the ring
'cause those are crazy expensive,
(19:42):
and if we did, then we'd run outta money.
- Well, I thank you for bringing it up.
When I was going onto your website,
I noticed the Pandia Health, you know,
emergency birth control fund.
And why I love that isit really is helping
bridge that gap for thosewho really can't afford it.
Sometimes some people say,"Well, $15 isn't a lot,"
but for some peoplethat is a lot of money,
right, to pay that extra $15.
(20:04):
That is a meal, or thatis a bill for some, right?
But they also need to make sure
that they are preventing pregnancies,
and they should have that right.
They should have thatright to be able to say,
"I don't wanna extend my family
but I also need to paythese bills," right?
We shouldn't have to choose.
So tell me, what isyour hope that you hope
will come out of Pandia Health?
What would you hope the impact will be?
(20:26):
- Well, the main reason is no one runs out
of birth control on our watchto the best of our ability.
But I realize that weare bringing, you know,
UCSF Stanford, betterthan UCSF Stanford care
to wherever you haveinternet and a mailbox.
As a woman of color, I realized
what we were taught atmajor medical institutions,
great, if you're a Caucasian female
(20:48):
that wants to bleed every month.
However, if you're ofAsian or Black descent,
spoke to my fellowAsian and Black doctors,
I'm like, "Oh yeah, that drug
that we're teaching everybodyto prescribe everywhere
does not work for our people."
And so given that I dedicatedthe past eight years
of my life just on birth control,
and then I have MIT,UCSF Stanford background,
I took a spreadsheet, tookall the birth control pills,
(21:10):
ranked them from mostlikely make you bleed,
least likely make you bleed.
Most likely give you munchies,
least likely to give you munchies.
Most likely give you acne,
least likely give you acne.
Took what I learned fromthe academic centers,
put that in and then fixedit for the side effect
that we were seeing in peopleof Asian and Black descent.
And so rather than you having
to try three different birth control pills
until you find the one that works for you,
(21:32):
we have 95% of our firsttimers really happy
with that first birthcontrol pill that we have.
And then we do a free 10 weekfollow up where we're like,
"Are you having breakthrough bleeding?
Are you having zits?
Are you having, you know, munchies?"
If so, then our doctors,
and they're the only onestrained in this algorithm,
'cause I made it up,
but based on science,that they can fix it.
(21:54):
They can be like, "Oh, you got munchies?
Let's turn this down.
You have a breakthroughbleeding, let's turn this up."
And with that, we see82% retention at a year
versus your standard 30 to 55% retention
for somebody new tothe birth control pill.
- So this is what I calledpatient centered care, right?
When you're actually sittingthere thinking about,
(22:15):
let me think about the impact
that this has on different people.
The intersections, the intersectionality.
The part of thinking about
how does this impact different groups,
and their bodies, their genes,
their physiology, their lifestyle.
The fact that certain groups
have different other comorbidities,
the fact they have their health conditions
that impact them differently.
But what you did is youstopped and you said,
(22:36):
I already know that thishas not been centered
around my Black and Asian and BIPOC,
you know, sisters.
And so let me stop and do what I know
that I would want to be done for me.
And let me put a littlebit of research in this,
and then let's check in
and make sure it's really working.
So when we think aboutthis a little bit more,
I also want to know, when wetalk about post-Roe world,
(22:59):
what do you feel likeyour role of Pandia Health
and other organizationsare gonna be in post-Roe?
We don't plan on being post-Roe forever,
but while we are here,
what do you feel like your roleis and other organizations?
- What we saw happen was a3x increase in the demand
for getting your birth control delivered,
in starting birth control.
(23:20):
And it wasn't just in Texas
where we would expect that to happen,
but also New York, which I was like,
"You have pharmacies on every corner.
Why do you need me?"
Pandia Health's role isto bring birth control
wherever you have internet and a mailbox,
to bring expert care.
We've launched menopause,
and there's only 1300 Menopause Society
certified practitionersin the entire country
(23:43):
for the new 1 million women each year
that are going through menopause.
And we happen picked uptwo of those experts,
and they're leadingour team for menopause.
So our role is to provide the ability
to prevent unplanned pregnancywith the pill, patch, ring.
Though again, it's most important
for long-acting reversible contraceptives
(24:03):
if you can get access to that.
We can't provide that obviously online.
But until you're ready forthat, we're here for you.
And we also do provideemergency contraception,
which is not medication abortion.
It's if the condom popped,
or God forbid you were sexually assaulted,
or you didn't take your pills
and you had sexual relations,heterosexual relations,
then you can take a medication
(24:25):
up to five days after that
to decrease your risk of pregnancy.
But better to be onlong-term birth control
than to use this.
But you got nothing,
better something than nothing.
- Well, as you brought it up,
let's talk about a littlebit about, you know, plan B,
or I should say FDA approved
over the counter birthcontrol pills. (laughs)
(24:45):
If so be it, you were to forget to take it
and had concern of pregnancy.
How do you see birth control
being affected with FDA approval of that,
and also what we're seeinghappen as we go through
with some of these abortionbans that are occurring?
- Yeah, so I'm very concerned.
I'm excited that one birth control pill
(25:07):
out of the 40 different options
is going over the counter.
But if you're currently
on a birth control pill, patch, ring,
do not be like, "Oh, there'sone over the counter.
I'm just gonna switch to that one."
Not all pills are created equal.
There are 40 differentbirth control pills,
and the one that is going over the counter
was approved in 1975, I believe,
(25:30):
and taken off market in 2003,
not because it was bad,evil or did anything,
but it just wasn't as good.
And so everything else thata doctor can prescribe you
beats what is going over the counter.
But what's going over the counter
is the best thing youcan get over the counter.
But if it were me, my daughter,my friend, my patient,
(25:51):
I would say go see a doctor,
if you can, go see somebodythat can prescribe you.
Go see somebody that can give you
at least the 40 different options.
If not, if in person, then youcould also add the implant,
the IUD and the shot.
But if you got nothing else, yes,
what's going over the counter is good.
But the other part,
know that it's a progesterone only pill.
If you take it three hours late,
(26:13):
you're at risk of pregnancy.
And who hasn't takenstuff three hours late?
The movie ran long.
You saw "Barbie" or "Oppenheimer,"
or you know, the latest movie,
and you ran three hours late.
Or your soccer practice,
or you fell asleep and you forgot.
If you are three hours late
on this new over the counter medication,
then you will need emergency contraception
(26:33):
if you had sexual relationsin the past five days.
Or if you intend to havesex, you have to hold off
for at least two days while that hormone
gets up to the level to prevent pregnancy,
and I fear that this will notbe communicated to the public.
So it's our job as people involved
in public health preventingunplanned pregnancy
to educate that what'sgoing over the counter
(26:54):
is the best you couldget over the counter.
Have some emergency contraception around.
And I would advise ella,
the prescription emergencycontraception over plan B,
because plan B, if your BMI is 26,
and my BMI is often 26 ifI eat some extra desserts
or, it doesn't work so well.
Plan B and its genericsdo not work so well
if your body mass index is 26 or greater.
(27:16):
If your BMI is 30 or greater,it does not work at all.
And ella works up to a BMI of 35.
If your BMI is 35 or greater,
then your only option is an IUD,
which can be used foremergency contraception.
But you gotta get in adoctor's office or the ER.
- What did I tell y'all?
Did I tell y'all we have
the truth tellers on "Feminism NOW,"
or do we have the truthtellers on "Feminism NOW?"
(27:39):
Dr. Sophia, this has been so enlightening.
This has been so helpfulfor our listeners.
This has been helpful for all of us.
This is information I wanna share
with the young feminists in my lives
and those who are still, you know,
needing birth control, you know? (laughs)
But I just think it's still important.
I mean, 'cause a lot of times,
like you said, they don't tell us this.
Thank you.
(27:59):
Thank you so much whatyour team, you are doing.
Thank you Dr. Sophia Yen.
Thank you listeners forcoming back for season two.
We are looking forward tobringing you interviews
with wonderful guests this year,
the feminists who are leading democracy.
This podcast "FeminismNOW" is a production
(28:19):
of the National Organizationfor Women in Voxtopica.
I'm Christian F. Nunes,NOW's national president.
And if you like what you hear,
please go to now.org,
read up on our core issues
and our approach toadvancing women's equality.
And get involved.
We'd love to hear from you.
Send your thoughts to feminismnow@now.org.
(28:43):
Thanks for listeningand we'll see you soon.
(upbeat music)
(dramatic music)
♪ Voxtopica ♪
- This is just a note.
This episode does discuss abortion
and touches on sexual assault.
So please make sure you'retaking care of yourself
and your needs when you listen.
(gentle upbeat music)
It is 2024, but sometimes the news
feels like it belongs ina much earlier century,
(00:22):
especially for women.
We continue to fightfor economic equality,
even as layoffs and rising inflation
increase our everyday struggles.
Even though the murderof George Floyd in 2020
brought to the forefront issues
of police brutalityagainst people of color,
little has changed.
A seemingly endlesscycle of school shootings
(00:42):
leaves us afraid to sendour children to school,
while our economic precarity leaves us
struggling for childcare.
Rising drug costs mean that
while medicines can achieveextraordinary things,
many women are bankruptby healthcare costs.
States pass bills that pretendto protect girls and women,
but in reality are designed to attack
(01:03):
and diminish the LGBTQIA+ people among us.
And after the fall of Roe versus Wade,
our reproductive freedomsare being steadily taken away
state by state, leavingour very lives at risk.
In times like these, itis all the more critical
that women and their allies
from all walks of life come together
(01:25):
and work together to protect each other,
and that means protecting democracy
and securing our equal rights as citizens.
(upbeat music)
Welcome to "Feminism NOW,"
featuring leaders and activists
who are on the front lines of the fight
for constitutionalequality, economic justice,
(01:47):
and reproductive rights.
I'm Christian F. Nunes,
the president of the NationalOrganization for Women.
And the theme of season two of our show
will be women leading democracy.
We will interview leaders
and experts about thecritical role of women
and feminist allies in thedemocracy of our nation,
and cover the issues thataffect women the most,
(02:09):
childcare and voting rights,
reproductive justice and gun violence,
the rise of generation Z,
and the need for healthcare for all,
from affordable prescriptionsto gender affirming care.
We're talking to guests aboutall these priority issues,
and we also want to hear from you
about what's on your mind.
You can do that by sending us an email
(02:30):
at feminismnow@now.org.
We're excited to have youwith us on this journey.
2023 should have beena year of celebration.
On January 22nd, it would've been 50 years
since the passage of Roe versus Wade,
the Supreme Court decision
that guaranteed pregnantpersons a right to choose.
(02:51):
But instead, what did we witness?
It was a day of mourning.
In 2022, the Supreme Courtreversed that decision,
throwing away thedecision of whether or not
people would become pregnant
have control over theirbodies back to the states.
What's followed is a slew of bans
as states try to restrictthe pregnant person's right
(03:12):
to have an abortion to six weeks,
or to no right at all, in some states.
Meanwhile, in a testament
to how popular reproductive rights are,
other states have passed protections,
creating a patchworkof reproductive freedom
and healthcare access across this country.
So it's fitting thatfrom our first episode
of this new season, season two,
(03:33):
that we should speak to one of the legends
of the reproductive rightsmovement, Heather Booth.
Heather is a civil rights activist
who has devoted her lifeto equality for everyone.
While in college in 1969,
she formed the undergroundabortion service
the Jane Collective
in connection with thecivil rights movement,
(03:53):
to help women receive healthcare,
counseling and abortion services.
When Roe versus Wade was first passed,
it seemed like the Jane Collective
wouldn't be needed anymore.
But now, look at us.
In 2024, it seems it mighthave been needed again.
So everyone help me welcome Heather Booth.
Heather, thank you for joining us.
(04:14):
- I am so glad to be here,
because I'm with now both Christian Nunes,
the dynamic leader of theremarkable organization
the National Organization for Women
that was the forefrontof the women's movement.
I came out of women's liberation,
but then joined with NOW,
and I've been a supporter ever since.
(04:37):
So glad to be with you
and the broad leadership you provide,
as well as the audienceof those listening in,
who are also people who are fighting
for freedom, and justice,and equality every day.
- Yes, Heather, thank you so much.
So we're gonna get started.
You have so much to offerand so much you can give.
(04:57):
But I wanna just kind of take us back
to this time when we could talk about
when you first foundedJane Collective in 1969.
A little bit about whatmotivated you to start this,
this important movement,this important service.
Can you tell us a little bit about that?
- What life was like before 1965,
(05:19):
and certainly before 1973,
before Roe became the law of the land,
there are unfortunately somany horror stories to share.
There were septic abortionwards in many hospitals
because women were dying.
They either had done injury to themselves
or were injured by someone,
sometimes unscrupulous people
taking advantage of women or people who,
(05:41):
because it wasn't legal.
On my college campus, a friend of mine
had been raped at knife point in her bed,
and when we went to student health
to get a gynecological exam,
she was given a lectureon her promiscuity,
and was told student health
didn't cover gynecological exams.
But because people organized,
(06:02):
not only was Roe becomingthe law of the land,
but now of course student health
would cover gynecological exams.
And rather than being given a lecture,
one would be given supportive care,
as well as safety, security,
to see that it would be less frequent,
more rare that peoplemight be raped and abused.
(06:23):
In 1965, I had just returned
from the MississippiFreedom of Summer Project.
I was part of the civil rights program
in the Student NonviolentCoordinating Committee.
We went to Mississippi.
Many of you know the story
when northern students were recruited
to support courageous African Americans
who were struggling for the right to vote.
And during that summer, tragically,
three of the young volunteers
(06:45):
were killed at the hands of the Klan.
But because we organizedeven in that tragedy,
within a year we had a voting rights act.
And that's the basic lesson I learned,
which is when you organize,you can change this world.
And I particularly learnedwe need to organize
with love at the center,building a beloved community.
(07:08):
So I had returned from Mississippi,
I was living in Chicago at the time,
and a friend of mine toldme his sister was pregnant
and not ready to have a child.
Not sure what she would do.
Was she even suicidal?
And could I find a doctorto perform an abortion?
I hadn't really ever thoughtabout the issue before.
It was a more innocent time,
(07:29):
and maybe I was a more innocent person.
And I said I would do what I could.
So I went to the medical armof the civil rights movement,
the Medical Committee for Human Rights,
and I found a remarkable doctor,
Dr. T. R. M. Howard.
I made the arrangement with Dr. Howard,
and I thought that was it.
I thought he would take care
of this one time act for a friend.
(07:52):
But after the procedurewhich was successful,
word spread from someoneelse, not from me,
and I got another call.
I made that arrangement with Dr. Howard,
and then I got another call.
And I realized we had to set up a system.
And so I learned from Dr.Howard what was involved.
You know, I had neverhad an abortion myself.
(08:12):
I've never faced the situation.
But I had to learn what was involved.
What do you do beforehand?
What do you do after?
Is there any pain?
What should we look out for?
How much does it cost?
Can we negotiate on the price?
Oh, it's $500?
Well, could we get two peoplein for the price of one?
Could we get three peoplefor the price of one?
And more and more peoplestarted coming through.
(08:35):
At some point because somany were coming through,
rather than giving outmy personal phone number,
we publicized and said,
"Pregnant? Don't wanna be?
Call Jane."
- Wow.
Let me just start off bysaying I love the fact
that this story starts with love,
and you said that, itstarted because loved someone
(08:55):
and you wanted to be therefor them, and you helped.
And that connection to love
and then the connection
to the intersectional involvement
of these movements, right,
which we're still seeing today, right?
So much of this is stillconnected to different movements,
and the need to say, we have to organize,
we have to be together.
These movements are overlapping,
(09:17):
and two different movements came together
to work for the greater good.
And if we cannot learnthe lesson from this,
I just have to,
I have to really point this out right now.
If we cannot learn the lessonfrom what you just said
about how two movements came together
for the greater good, whenare we gonna learn the lesson?
- You are so right.
(09:37):
All our movements are connected.
Audre Lorde said, "We don'tlead single issue lives."
And all our issues are connected.
But this is the most intimatedecision in a person's life
about when, or whether, orwith whom we have a child,
and no politician shouldinterfere with that decision.
(10:00):
And yet Donald Trump is glad.
He claims credit that he's overturned Roe,
and denied this not only to the people
in 20 states where abortionis now either banned
or under such restrictive laws
that it's inaccessible for so many,
but they really wantto see a universal ban.
(10:23):
And that's one of the issues
that's at stake in the election.
They're even now tryingto ban mifepristone,
the way to have a medical abortion.
And they're having politicians
and judges with no medical background
to make a medical decision,
and say that the Foodand Drug Administration
(10:44):
can't make a determination
that this very safe product
that's in been on the market
for over 20 years can be available.
And that's another case that's coming up
before the Supreme Court.
- It's quite interestinghow the politicization
of reproductive rights has come up,
and how, like you just said,
(11:05):
people who have no earthly knowledge,
no medical background,
don't even really have the knowledge
of even how the anatomy works, right?
Some of the things they're thinking,
even some of these bans,you think about them,
and people are, they'recriminalizing women
for having miscarriages,
things they cannot, theirbodies cannot control.
(11:26):
And they're making thesedecisions not because they care,
not because they really truly value life,
because it's politicized,
because they want tocontrol, they want power.
It puts them in a position of power,
and that's all it's really about.
Like you said, Donald Trump's is out there
and he's sitting there claiming something
because of how he's politicizing it
(11:46):
to put himself in a position.
He doesn't care about the impact.
He doesn't care of the harm.
- You are so right thatthis has become politicized.
When I was first activeon the issue in the 1960s,
it wasn't a partisan political issue,
but it has become partisan.
During the Reagan years,there was a deal that was made
(12:07):
between the right wingof the Republican party
that was at that pointgaining greater strength,
and part of a white Christiannationalist movement.
And the two made a deal.
And the right wing of the Republican party
said that they would provide
the political apparatusand some of the money,
and the churches would provide the people.
(12:29):
They would trade our livesfor the political power
to win tax breaks for the wealthiest,
to drill wherever they wanna drill.
And this issue may noteven have been important
to some in the Republicanparty of those days,
but now it's become oneof their core messages
as they seek to take away our freedom.
(12:52):
- I think this is so importantwe really call this out,
and this is why we call ourselvesthe truth tellers, right?
Because it's importantpeople really understand
that this is not really,they wanna make it seem
like it's about something that it's not.
So, you know, when we talk about this,
and I know sometimespeople feel so helpless.
They feel like, you know, what do I do?
But one thing I wanna pointout is what we have seen
(13:15):
is what we always see with women, right,
and our allies, is thatwe don't back down.
We continue to push forward,
and that we will fight this battle,
and we will continue to make sure
that we're fighting for our rights,
and our bodies, and our autonomy.
And when we show up,
what we've seen happenover the last couple years
since overturning Row is that
(13:36):
reproductive freedom is winning, right?
When people are showing up, it's winning.
So we know people care.
We know people want their autonomy.
We will know people want their bodies.
But for those who are feeling discouraged,
and for those who are feeling helpless,
what would you tell them?
What advice would you give,
as one of the best civil rights activists
that I personally know?
- And you are my sister in this struggle,
(13:58):
and all of those listening inare our sisters and brothers,
those men of goodwill,in a shared struggle.
We know from history thatwhen we've organized,
then we can change history
and make it better,make it more inclusive,
more free, more democratic and just.
That was the truth in thecivil rights movement,
it was the truth in theearly women's movement,
(14:20):
and it will be true now.
It has been true in every referendum
that's been on the ballot.
When we've organized, we've won.
It's been true in almostevery special election.
When we've organized, we've won.
And what we need to do now is organize
with love at the centerand we also will win.
- I wish we had more time,
but you just wrapped it up for us,
(14:42):
because this is what we need.
This is what we need to motivate us
and to get us geared up is that
when we center it with love,
and we organize, we will win.
We're gonna win this.
We're gonna win thisreproductive freedom fight.
We're gonna win this voting rights fight.
We're gonna win back our democracy,
and women will be the center.
So thank you so much
for just giving us some information
(15:04):
about the work you've done
with reproductive freedomand rights and your history,
and tying it into theimportance of organizing
and leading with love.
I appreciate you and Ican't wait to have you back.
So thank you for coming on "Feminism NOW."
So for today's action now,
I'd like to talk to youabout Black maternal health.
(15:25):
Did y'all know that United States
has the highest maternal mortality rate
of any high income country,
and significant disparitiesin health outcomes?
And the crisis is only worsening.
The Black Maternal Health Momnibus Act
will address this crisisthrough historic investments
that comprehensively address
every driver of maternalmortality, morbidity,
(15:48):
and disparities in the United States.
So today, we are asking you
to please contact your representatives
in support of the BlackMaternal Health Momnibus Act.
Together, we can take action now.
And now back to our interview.
So abortion is what peopleturn to once they're pregnant.
(16:10):
But in an ideal world,people would not have
to face the stress of being pregnant,
if they didn't want to.
While there are many methods out there,
one key one is birth control
we know about, right, Dr. Yen.
And here is one of the bright spots
in reproductive health.
There are more options tobirth control than ever before.
And in 2023, the FDA approved
(16:30):
the first over-the-counterbirth control pill.
But most people still haven'tturned to their doctor
or don't have birth control access.
That access can be difficult,
which is why I'm so pleased today
to have with you today totalk about birth control,
and what this person's doing
is so great and so important.
We're gonna have Dr. Sophia Yen.
(16:52):
Dr. Yen is a board certified physician
in adolescent medicine,
and a clinical associate professor
at Stanford Medical School.
She's also the founder ofthe amazing Pandia Health,
an organization thatprovides online access
to mail order birth control.
Y'all, she's changing the game.
So please help me welcome Dr. Sophia Yen
with Pandia Health.
(17:14):
- Thank you so much for having me here.
I'm so excited to talk birth control,
and anything related to birth control,
or we like to call itestrogen-progesterone pills treatment.
- Yes, thank you so muchfor being our guest today,
and just really in this important time
as we're like seeing what's been happening
and we're almost two years post-Roe.
(17:36):
We're seeing the impactof what's happening,
and we're also seeing
how they're also attacking birth control.
So we know how importantaccess is to making sure
that those who need birth control have it,
and what Pandia Health is doing
is just so crucially important.
So Dr. Yen, can you tellus a little bit more
about why you decidedto found Pandia Health?
(17:58):
- So I was giving a talkto a bunch of doctors,
"why don't women taketheir birth control?"
And one of the top reasons it came up was,
"Didn't have it in their hand.
Didn't have time to run
to the pharmacy every single month."
And as you know, you get tothe end of that pack of pills
and you're like, "Oh my goodness,
I need to get to the pharmacy.
If I don't get there, Iwill end up pregnant."
(18:19):
Or you know, "I'll have bleeding
when I don't wanna have bleeding."
And my friend and I arelike, "We could solve this.
We will just ship women birth control
and keep shipping it to them
until they tell us to stop."
And then we ran ads, "Freebirth control delivery"
and 60% of the women that responded
didn't have a prescription.
And it's like, don't youknow you need a prescription
for the birth control pill/patch/ring?
(18:41):
And being a doctor, Icould write prescriptions,
and thus Pandia Health was born.
If you have a prescription and insurance,
just tell us where it's at, we'll ship it.
We make sure you never run out
of birth control in ourwatch, that's our goal.
You pay us nothing.
Thanks to the Affordable Care Act,
no copay, no deductible forany FDA approved birth control.
(19:01):
- Wow, that is so important.
And I also love the fact that you're able
to really make sure that people are able
to get that birth controlfor free of no cost.
Because we know people sometimes,
those on the povertyline also have problems
paying for birth control.
So being able to usethe Affordable Care Act
and be able to access birth control
(19:21):
of no cost to them isso critically important
to making sure we'rehaving economic equality
and equity, right, in this process.
- Absolutely.
And then we also have thePandia Health Birth Control Fund
to which people can donate,
but people can also apply
to cover the birth control pill.
We don't cover the patch or the ring
'cause those are crazy expensive,
(19:42):
and if we did, then we'd run outta money.
- Well, I thank you for bringing it up.
When I was going onto your website,
I noticed the Pandia Health, you know,
emergency birth control fund.
And why I love that isit really is helping
bridge that gap for thosewho really can't afford it.
Sometimes some people say,"Well, $15 isn't a lot,"
but for some peoplethat is a lot of money,
right, to pay that extra $15.
(20:04):
That is a meal, or thatis a bill for some, right?
But they also need to make sure
that they are preventing pregnancies,
and they should have that right.
They should have thatright to be able to say,
"I don't wanna extend my family
but I also need to paythese bills," right?
We shouldn't have to choose.
So tell me, what isyour hope that you hope
will come out of Pandia Health?
What would you hope the impact will be?
(20:26):
- Well, the main reason is no one runs out
of birth control on our watchto the best of our ability.
But I realize that weare bringing, you know,
UCSF Stanford, betterthan UCSF Stanford care
to wherever you haveinternet and a mailbox.
As a woman of color, I realized
what we were taught atmajor medical institutions,
great, if you're a Caucasian female
(20:48):
that wants to bleed every month.
However, if you're ofAsian or Black descent,
spoke to my fellowAsian and Black doctors,
I'm like, "Oh yeah, that drug
that we're teaching everybodyto prescribe everywhere
does not work for our people."
And so given that I dedicatedthe past eight years
of my life just on birth control,
and then I have MIT,UCSF Stanford background,
I took a spreadsheet, tookall the birth control pills,
(21:10):
ranked them from mostlikely make you bleed,
least likely make you bleed.
Most likely give you munchies,
least likely to give you munchies.
Most likely give you acne,
least likely give you acne.
Took what I learned fromthe academic centers,
put that in and then fixedit for the side effect
that we were seeing in peopleof Asian and Black descent.
And so rather than you having
to try three different birth control pills
until you find the one that works for you,
(21:32):
we have 95% of our firsttimers really happy
with that first birthcontrol pill that we have.
And then we do a free 10 weekfollow up where we're like,
"Are you having breakthrough bleeding?
Are you having zits?
Are you having, you know, munchies?"
If so, then our doctors,
and they're the only onestrained in this algorithm,
'cause I made it up,
but based on science,that they can fix it.
(21:54):
They can be like, "Oh, you got munchies?
Let's turn this down.
You have a breakthroughbleeding, let's turn this up."
And with that, we see82% retention at a year
versus your standard 30 to 55% retention
for somebody new tothe birth control pill.
- So this is what I calledpatient centered care, right?
When you're actually sittingthere thinking about,
(22:15):
let me think about the impact
that this has on different people.
The intersections, the intersectionality.
The part of thinking about
how does this impact different groups,
and their bodies, their genes,
their physiology, their lifestyle.
The fact that certain groups
have different other comorbidities,
the fact they have their health conditions
that impact them differently.
But what you did is youstopped and you said,
(22:36):
I already know that thishas not been centered
around my Black and Asian and BIPOC,
you know, sisters.
And so let me stop and do what I know
that I would want to be done for me.
And let me put a littlebit of research in this,
and then let's check in
and make sure it's really working.
So when we think aboutthis a little bit more,
I also want to know, when wetalk about post-Roe world,
(22:59):
what do you feel likeyour role of Pandia Health
and other organizationsare gonna be in post-Roe?
We don't plan on being post-Roe forever,
but while we are here,
what do you feel like your roleis and other organizations?
- What we saw happen was a3x increase in the demand
for getting your birth control delivered,
in starting birth control.
(23:20):
And it wasn't just in Texas
where we would expect that to happen,
but also New York, which I was like,
"You have pharmacies on every corner.
Why do you need me?"
Pandia Health's role isto bring birth control
wherever you have internet and a mailbox,
to bring expert care.
We've launched menopause,
and there's only 1300 Menopause Society
certified practitionersin the entire country
(23:43):
for the new 1 million women each year
that are going through menopause.
And we happen picked uptwo of those experts,
and they're leadingour team for menopause.
So our role is to provide the ability
to prevent unplanned pregnancywith the pill, patch, ring.
Though again, it's most important
for long-acting reversible contraceptives
(24:03):
if you can get access to that.
We can't provide that obviously online.
But until you're ready forthat, we're here for you.
And we also do provideemergency contraception,
which is not medication abortion.
It's if the condom popped,
or God forbid you were sexually assaulted,
or you didn't take your pills
and you had sexual relations,heterosexual relations,
then you can take a medication
(24:25):
up to five days after that
to decrease your risk of pregnancy.
But better to be onlong-term birth control
than to use this.
But you got nothing,
better something than nothing.
- Well, as you brought it up,
let's talk about a littlebit about, you know, plan B,
or I should say FDA approved
over the counter birthcontrol pills. (laughs)
(24:45):
If so be it, you were to forget to take it
and had concern of pregnancy.
How do you see birth control
being affected with FDA approval of that,
and also what we're seeinghappen as we go through
with some of these abortionbans that are occurring?
- Yeah, so I'm very concerned.
I'm excited that one birth control pill
(25:07):
out of the 40 different options
is going over the counter.
But if you're currently
on a birth control pill, patch, ring,
do not be like, "Oh, there'sone over the counter.
I'm just gonna switch to that one."
Not all pills are created equal.
There are 40 differentbirth control pills,
and the one that is going over the counter
was approved in 1975, I believe,
(25:30):
and taken off market in 2003,
not because it was bad,evil or did anything,
but it just wasn't as good.
And so everything else thata doctor can prescribe you
beats what is going over the counter.
But what's going over the counter
is the best thing youcan get over the counter.
But if it were me, my daughter,my friend, my patient,
(25:51):
I would say go see a doctor,
if you can, go see somebodythat can prescribe you.
Go see somebody that can give you
at least the 40 different options.
If not, if in person, then youcould also add the implant,
the IUD and the shot.
But if you got nothing else, yes,
what's going over the counter is good.
But the other part,
know that it's a progesterone only pill.
If you take it three hours late,
(26:13):
you're at risk of pregnancy.
And who hasn't takenstuff three hours late?
The movie ran long.
You saw "Barbie" or "Oppenheimer,"
or you know, the latest movie,
and you ran three hours late.
Or your soccer practice,
or you fell asleep and you forgot.
If you are three hours late
on this new over the counter medication,
then you will need emergency contraception
(26:33):
if you had sexual relationsin the past five days.
Or if you intend to havesex, you have to hold off
for at least two days while that hormone
gets up to the level to prevent pregnancy,
and I fear that this will notbe communicated to the public.
So it's our job as people involved
in public health preventingunplanned pregnancy
to educate that what'sgoing over the counter
(26:54):
is the best you couldget over the counter.
Have some emergency contraception around.
And I would advise ella,
the prescription emergencycontraception over plan B,
because plan B, if your BMI is 26,
and my BMI is often 26 ifI eat some extra desserts
or, it doesn't work so well.
Plan B and its genericsdo not work so well
if your body mass index is 26 or greater.
(27:16):
If your BMI is 30 or greater,it does not work at all.
And ella works up to a BMI of 35.
If your BMI is 35 or greater,
then your only option is an IUD,
which can be used foremergency contraception.
But you gotta get in adoctor's office or the ER.
- What did I tell y'all?
Did I tell y'all we have
the truth tellers on "Feminism NOW,"
or do we have the truthtellers on "Feminism NOW?"
(27:39):
Dr. Sophia, this has been so enlightening.
This has been so helpfulfor our listeners.
This has been helpful for all of us.
This is information I wanna share
with the young feminists in my lives
and those who are still, you know,
needing birth control, you know? (laughs)
But I just think it's still important.
I mean, 'cause a lot of times,
like you said, they don't tell us this.
Thank you.
(27:59):
Thank you so much whatyour team, you are doing.
Thank you Dr. Sophia Yen.
Thank you listeners forcoming back for season two.
We are looking forward tobringing you interviews
with wonderful guests this year,
the feminists who are leading democracy.
This podcast "FeminismNOW" is a production
(28:19):
of the National Organizationfor Women in Voxtopica.
I'm Christian F. Nunes,NOW's national president.
And if you like what you hear,
please go to now.org,
read up on our core issues
and our approach toadvancing women's equality.
And get involved.
We'd love to hear from you.
Send your thoughts to feminismnow@now.org.
(28:43):
Thanks for listeningand we'll see you soon.
(upbeat music)
(dramatic music)
♪ Voxtopica ♪
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