August 6, 2024 • 49 mins
“How many scenes are in the Diagon Alley chapter of Harry Potter and the Sorcerer’s Stone?” Believe it or not, this is one of the most frequently asked questions I get from writers when they hear I’ve written a book breaking apart this mega best seller scene by scene.
And it’s a valid question! This chapter was the hardest chapter for us to analyze when putting together The Story Grid Masterwork Analysis Guide to Harry Potter and the Sorcerer’s Stone.
But this week, Abigail K. Perry and I have an answer for you! Tune into this week’s episode to hear us take a deep dive into the structure of Chapter 5, “Diagon Alley,”—including how many scenes we see in this chapter.
In the episode, you’ll hear us talk about things like:
- [04:21] How to analyze your scenes from three different perspectives—the reader’s perspective, the character’s perspective, and the author’s perspective
- [11:33] A quick trick for determining if your scenes work (and how to identify which areas of your scenes need work once you’ve written them)
- [20:12] Why we chose to analyze this chapter as one 6,500-word-long scene versus a bunch of smaller scenes (and how the structure of this scene works)
- [23:12] The purpose of the smaller moments within the scene that are arguably significant (and move the scene) forward but aren’t technically “scenes”
- [41:14] Our final thoughts on writing a scene like Diagon Alley
If you like this episode, you’ll LOVE my book, Harry Potter and the Sorcerer’s Stone: A Story Grid Masterwork Analysis Guide. Click here to pre-order a copy and get access to a collection of bonuses in addition to a copy of the book.
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Links mentioned in this episode:
- Pre-order my new book, Harry Potter and the Sorcerer’s Stone: A Story Grid Masterwork Analysis Guide, and get a handful of special bonuses!
- Watch the video interview on Story Grid’s YouTube channel
Click here to register for my FREE training: 3 Things You Need to Write Your Novel in 2025.
👉 Looking for a transcript? If you’re listening on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, scroll down below the episode player until you see the transcript.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Harry goes to Madame Malkin's robe shop.
He's alone because Hagrid'snauseous after the Gringotts
cart ride, and this is where hemeets that unnamed character,
which we know is Draco, who heinstantly dislikes.
And Harry does face a crisishere.
So Draco insults Hagrid andit's kind of like do I stand up
for Hagrid and make this kid madand make an enemy, or do I side
(00:23):
with the kid and betray my newfriend Hagrid?
So there is a crisis, but thecrisis isn't strong enough to
create a value shift in thescene.
Welcome to the Fiction WritingMade Easy podcast.
My name is Savannah Gilbo andI'm here to help you write a
story that works.
I want to prove to you thatwriting a novel doesn't have to
(00:44):
be overwhelming.
So each week I'll bring you abrand new episode with simple,
actionable and step-by-stepstrategies that you can
implement in your writing rightaway.
So whether you're brand new towriting or more of a seasoned
author looking to improve yourcraft, this podcast is for you.
So pick up a pen and let's getstarted.
In today's episode, I'm takingyou down a little bit of a
(01:07):
rabbit hole into one of thescenes in Harry Potter and the
Sorcerer's Stone, and that isthe scene in chapter five,
Diagon Alley.
Now I wanted to go on a deepdive into this scene because it
was one of the hardest scenesfor me to analyze when I was
putting together the Story GridMasterwork Analysis Guide that
I've been talking about for thelast few weeks, and I wanted to
(01:28):
take you behind the scenes toshare where Abigail and I landed
in terms of is this one scene,two scenes or multiple scenes,
and how does it actually workfrom a craft perspective?
So we recorded a video forStoryGrid's YouTube channel and
I'm going to share the audio ofthat video with you today.
I will also post the link tothe video in the show notes in
case you want to check that outas well.
(01:50):
Now I am going to provide aquick summary of the Diagon
Alley scene, but you might wantto read through the chapter and
then listen to this episodeagain after you've
re-familiarized yourself withthe text.
I think it will help you seewhat I'm talking about in a
little bit of a different way.
If you've actually read thescene In the episode, you're
going to hear Abigail and I talkabout how we look at scenes in
(02:10):
the Masterwork Analysis Guide.
So the four questions that weuse to analyze every single
scene in this book and then Iwill walk you through the nuts
and bolts of these smallermoments within the scene to show
you how everything works.
So it really is a jam-packed,deep dive type of episode and I
think you're really going toenjoy it.
So, with that being said, let'sgo ahead and dive right into
(02:32):
the conversation.
Okay, so we are back to talk toyou today about Diagon Alley,
which is one of the hardestscenes that we had to analyze
for this masterwork analysisguide, and in part, it's because
there's so much going on.
It's the whole chapter is about6,500 words, which is a lot,
but we wanna walk you throughwhat might seem like a strange
(02:55):
result to land at.
So we landed that, this wholechapter being one scene and I
know that we're going to getquestions about that, despite
what we have in the analysisguide.
So we really wanted to walk youthrough the logic and just show
you how we broke it down.
So I think this will be reallyfun.
I'm going to go ahead and readthis little short summary of
what happens in the chapter andthen we will dig into it.
So, in this chapter, Harry andHagrid, they go to Diagon Alley.
(03:18):
They're going to pick up schoolsupplies and a package for
Dumbledore.
They pass through the LeakyCauldron where every witch and
wizard, including Harry'ssoon-to-be professor Quirrell,
recognizes Harry.
Then they visit Gringotts andthey get Harry's money and a
mysterious package forDumbledore that Harry is very
curious about.
After that, Harry gets fittedfor a robe at Madame Malkin's
(03:39):
Robe Shop, where he meets anunnamed first-year student,
which we know is Draco Malfoy,who he immediately dislikes.
And then Harry and Hagrid visittheir last stop, which is
Ollivander's, where Harry getshis wand, and in the shop, Mr
Ollivander has a lot to sayabout Harry's legacy, including
that the world can expect greatthings from him, especially now
that he has the brother ofVoldemort's wand, which is no
(04:02):
big deal, right.
And then later in the samescene, Harry tells Hagrid that
he doesn't think he can live upto everyone's expectations, but
Hagrid reassures him you'll befine once you get to Hogwarts.
So very condensed version ofwhat happens.
We want to walk you through howwe analyze this and why we got
to our answer.
So Abigail's going to talk usthrough how we analyze it and
(04:24):
then we'll go through the scenespecifically.
Speaker 2 (04:26):
Sure.
So we're looking for a storyevent, which means that we're
looking for how there's anactive change of a universal
human value for one or morecharacters.
Usually we're tracking theprotagonist right.
So how is there a value change,something that is important to
this character?
What is their goal, how they'regoing to achieve that, how is
(04:47):
there a value change from thebeginning of the scene into the
end of it?
And this is because there is aconflict that is then going to
force them to make a decision.
That decision is going tocreate an action that is going
to create the value shift.
So a working scene means atleast one of these story events
in order to work as the scene,in order to figure out if
there's a working scene, you'dlike to answer for Socratic
(05:09):
questions.
So the first of these questionsis what are the characters
literally doing, that is, whatare their micro, on the surface
actions?
We see this as the reader'sperspective, so you're thinking
about this on the most literalscale of things.
This can be as simple as alocation, right?
So it is truly just plot.
(05:30):
What has happened literally inthe plot to show that we've
advanced this, advanced thestory by the scene change, okay.
Speaker 1 (05:38):
And so in Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone
in this scene, what they'redoing literally is they're
shopping for school supplies inDiagon Alley.
So the change we called outhere was that Harry was in the
muggle world and now he's in thewizarding world.
So again, very literal.
You don't need a ton of contextto get this OTS change.
Speaker 2 (05:57):
It's just what's actually happening on the
surface and then the secondquestion is going to deal with
the character's perspective.
So here we're thinking whyinternal right, like what's
going on internally?
How is this developing thecharacter?
Remember that characters arebest developed by crisis, by
putting them in a crisis,because then they're forced to
(06:18):
make a decision and that's goingto develop their character.
So we learn who a character isby how they make decisions.
When you're looking at thequestion itself, we label this
as what is the essential tacticof the character?
What above-the-surface macrobehaviors are they employing
that are linked to the universalhuman value?
(06:39):
So, to phrase that, like, whatis the value change, that
literal change, right?
And how is the character goingto be forced to make a decision
that's going to help them changewhere they are internally and
how they are?
You know, seeing something howare they starting?
(06:59):
Where they are?
Where's their mindset at thereat the beginning?
Where is it at the end?
Speaker 1 (07:04):
Yeah, and you can think about this too.
That helped me is like what dothey want?
Why do they want it and whatare they doing and how are they
coming at this thing that theywant?
So it's internal.
So in harry potter and thesorcerer's stone, we know harry
is like brand new to everything.
In diagon alley he wants tounderstand the world he's a part
of and then once, once he getsthere, conflict happens because
(07:25):
he's like there's so much Idon't know, I don't understand,
so he starts feeling insecure.
Now we also like to look atthis from a couple of different
perspectives, because we'renerds and it's fun.
Also, it's helpful for writingyour own stories.
But the wizarding world plays apart in this too.
So they're, in a way, theantagonist of this scene.
Right, Because Harry wants tounderstand things.
(07:45):
He doesn't really like being inthe spotlight and they're going
to pull him into the spotlight.
So and it's just because ofwhat they naturally want so the
wizarding world, all the witchesand wizards they want to
welcome Harry back and give himthe recognition and the fanfare
and the hugs that he deserves.
But it makes Harry reallyuncomfortable.
So he wants to learn about theworld, but once he does.
He's like I don't know if Ihave what it takes to live up to
(08:07):
your expectations.
There's a whole lot I don'tknow.
So it's what Harry wants versuswhat the scene antagonist wants
, which in this case is thewizarding world, and there's
shades of this as we get into itwhich we'll talk about.
So the change we called outhere is he had ignorance or he
was ignorant about the wizardingworld.
He has some knowledge.
By the end of the scene.
He came in feeling a sense ofawe and he left the scene
(08:31):
feeling insecure.
So these are internal valuesthat we can tie back to the
global story, which we'll talkabout in a second Yep.
Speaker 2 (08:38):
And then the third question deals with what, beyond
the surface, universal humanvalues have changed for more one
or more characters in the sceneand which of those value
changes is most important to beincluded in the story grid
spreadsheet.
So we're thinking about this asauthor perspective.
Another way that we look atthis is when you're choosing the
value that goes with thespreadsheet you're thinking how
(09:00):
can I defend that this sceneimpacts the global value shift?
So we're working with an actionstory.
In general, we're on a life anddeath value spectrum scale.
You can use different words toemphasize where that life and
death is.
Ultimately it's saying thatwe're on the survival scale.
Where are we and how is thisscene?
(09:20):
Even if Diagon Alley doesn'tnecessarily have a life
threatening moment in the sceneand, by the way, there should be
plenty of scenes that don'thave that literal life and death
, because otherwise it's way toointense all over the place
You're going to undervalue theones that really do have those
moments.
But regardless of that in thiscan we say, what happens in this
(09:42):
scene still influences andimpacts the value shift on that
life and death scale.
So the author knows this,because the author is God of the
story.
The author knows what thereader and what the characters
don't know, which means thatthat's how they can play and
move their chess pieces in a waythat creates surprises and as
important stuff like is this ascene that I kill my darlings
(10:03):
with, or do I keep it, and whydo I keep it?
Speaker 1 (10:05):
So that's how we make a decision with this question
yeah, and so and this is, Ithink, has developed into our
favorite, uh, way of looking atscenes, just because it's it's
so sometimes hard to thinkthrough, but really rewarding
once you get to the answer andyou're like, okay, I get it.
So in this scene, what wecalled out was, although harry
feels insecure about his abilityto assimilate into the
(10:25):
wizarding world and live up thatreputation that other people
have of him, or the expectations, he does succeed in collecting
everything he needs to go toHogwarts and he's going to go
there, learn all those spells,forge the alliances and develop
that confidence and courageneeded to face Voldemort in the
end and courage needed to faceVoldemort in the end.
So on one hand, he's grown moreinsecure, but he's also
(10:46):
accomplished his scene goal, orthat objective, which is get
your school supplies and thevisit to Gringotts.
We'll go into these littlemicro bits in a second.
But the visit to Gringotts isespecially important because
this is what piques Harry'scuriosity and that need to find
out what's in the package and ifhe's not curious about it, he's
(11:10):
not curious about it.
He's not going to be called toinvestigate or later protect it,
and if he doesn't do that, thenVoldemort will succeed in
coming to power again.
So that's what Abigail wassaying all these little chess
pieces.
There's so many differentthings going on and the author,
from this analysis perspectivewe pretend to be the author so
we know something very differentthan a first time reader will,
in that, on the surface of,we're just visiting Diagon Alley
and having a great time, andHarry's also seeing something
(11:30):
different.
He's feeling insecurity andalso wonder and all that.
So it's a really cool way toplay with all the different
layers.
And the BTS change we calledout here was that he's going
from unequipped to equipped,because Abigail said what is
going to move us along thatglobal value spectrum?
What's going to help him bemore equipped to survive or more
able to survive or less, and inthis case, getting the supplies
(11:54):
and going to Hogwarts.
Speaker 2 (11:55):
Yeah, and just look at that Like, ultimately, what
is this question doing?
It's answering why this scenematters.
Speaker 1 (12:01):
And it's answering.
Speaker 2 (12:02):
I need to look at Savannah's write up for this.
Why does this matter for this?
Why does this matter internallyand why does it matter
externally?
We've had an external question,we've had an internal question
and now we're marrying the tworight, Right, and then you're
choosing your value shift basedon that global value spectrum.
So where are we in that?
Un-equipped to equipped?
Notice, it is not saying lifeto death, death to life, any of
(12:22):
those, but it affects it, Right?
We like to say and this is oneof the greatest things that gave
me freedom and analyzing, I wassuper spiraled and then I felt
like I had to literally writedown life or death and I
realized the word was shacklingme from really my understanding
of what the value change couldbe.
Unequipped to equipped, we canargue.
(12:42):
Being equipped is going to helpyou preserve your life, right?
So just don't overthink thewords that you pick for the
value change.
Just make sure that they makesense, right and like.
Sometimes we don't even pick asingle word.
You'll notice, in the analysisstory we describe something.
So it's like I just I thinkthat like, that was something
for me.
When I first started analyzingstories with masterworks, I
(13:06):
really felt restricted in what Ihad to do with the words and
then I realized, like wait, Idon't have to just pick one
single word.
And again, it's not unequippedto equipped.
You might have a differentvalue change in your mind of
what the scene can do, but canyou argue still that it impacts
the life or death value spectrum?
If the answer to that is yes,then you're moving in a better
(13:28):
way of, I think, analyzing thescene in order to determine if
it has value or not in the story.
Speaker 1 (13:32):
Yeah, and you'll see, like Abigail said, we kind of
left our versions of, like, somescenes.
We might have three options forwhat describes a value shift,
and it's because we couldn'tpick.
We, because we couldn't pick.
We want to show you that wedon't have the perfect answers,
and it's okay, because we allget to that same conclusion and
that's what helps us write astory.
So these are the three.
There's still one more becausewe want to kind of synthesize
(13:53):
all this and bring it together,what we're going to put on the
spreadsheet.
Let me click ahead to the nextone here.
Speaker 2 (13:59):
There we go.
Fourth question is the sceneevent synthesis?
Here we go.
Fourth question is the sceneevent synthesis?
So what story event sums up thescenes on the surface about the
surface change?
Imagine.
This says if you were to saywhat the log line is for this
scene, what is that sentence?
Go ahead, savannah.
Speaker 1 (14:16):
Yeah.
So here we said Harry andHagrid visit Diagon Alley this
is the OTS on the surface topurchase school supplies and
Harry grows more insecure abouthis place in the wizarding world
.
That kind of wraps up the ATSon the surface to purchase
school supplies and Harry growsmore insecure about his place in
the wizarding world.
That kind of wraps up the ATSright.
His goal or objective is to getschool supplies.
He's feeling insecure about itand then, especially, he's
growing more insecure especiallyafter visiting Ollivanders.
(14:37):
So it grabs all three of thosethings and shows what's the core
bit of the scene, why is itimportant, why does it matter?
And, like Abigail said, this iswhat we put on the spreadsheet
if you're using one, so it is alog line for your scene.
It's the most succinct way youcan show why it matters and how
it does more than one thing too,which is really cool.
Speaker 2 (14:57):
And, as book coaches, we know that writing this
sentence is hard.
Okay, yes, it's hard for us too.
It's hard for us too.
This is an over 6 000 wordscene.
It is hard to sum up everythingcrucial to basically describing
the point of this story, thispoint of the scene in this story
, in one sentence.
Right, look, when you're doingthis, I always say, just write
(15:18):
long and edit down, but when youcan do it in one sentence, this
essentially.
Now you know that you'reprobably on track with the scene
because you've simplifiedsomething complex, right, and I
want to determine purpose, right, yeah, and that whole thing is,
it's about purpose.
So, using those ATS, ots, ats,bts as a combination is a way
(15:38):
for you to help make the harddecision and take out the words
that don't need to exist in thesentence.
Speaker 1 (15:45):
Yeah, and, like we talked about in one of the
previous videos, Tim mentionedin one of the scenes he was
missing something exciting onthe surface level.
So he had a bunch of stuff that, as the author, he knew it was
important to you know, putpressure on his protagonist to
grow and change in that sceneand he knew why it was important
.
But he read back through it andhe realized that maybe for a
first time reader who doesn'tknow where the story is going,
(16:07):
they're not going to find itexciting.
So these different perspectivesare a great editing tool and I
think both Abigail and I wouldagree You're not going to have
all of these things figured outwhen you write a first draft.
It's really more of thatediting magic.
Speaker 2 (16:20):
So just something to keep in mind.
Right, and this is a lot easierto write this sentence because
that scene is existing, likeexists in a published work.
Right, that has been editedover and over and over again.
Speaker 1 (16:31):
And because we know the whole story.
It would be very hard to saywhat is the actual purpose
without knowing the whole story.
Yeah, very true, just somethings to keep in mind.
And now we wanted to run youthrough where we landed.
So, after we went through anddid that analysis, where did we
land with the five commandmentsfor this scene?
So again, what's his objective?
Right, they want to go getschool supplies and they're
(16:52):
going to go to Diagon Alley.
So the first bit of conflictthat gets in the way is witches
and wizards in the LeakyCauldron recognize Harry and
they're like welcome back, welove you.
All this stuff, right?
So it's not expected by Harryat all.
So it's conflict that starts toput pressure on that internal
piece where he's like oh,everyone expects these things of
(17:13):
me and I don't even know whatthe wizarding world is yet.
But then there's a bunch ofprogressive complications, which
we will look at in a second,and the turning point happens
when Mr Ollivander says theworld can expect great things
from you, especially now thatyou have the brother to
Voldemort's wand.
So it's confirmed, all theseworries that Harry has.
Mr Ollivander is like yeah, theworld's going to expect you to
(17:34):
be a pretty darn good wizard.
So Harry faces a best badchoice decision.
Do you want to explain whatbest bad choice is, abigail?
So best bad choice.
Speaker 2 (17:42):
No matter what choice you pick, it's a negative
result.
Right, so there can be areconcilable goods decisions.
It's not the case in this scene.
That's the inverse of the bestbad choice.
That means that both optionsare good, but usually it
actually impacts the third partywhat your choice is.
But in this case, no matterwhat Harry chooses, even if he
doesn't choose something, it'sgoing to result in a negative
(18:03):
consequence or it's going to bea tough thing.
Speaker 1 (18:06):
So his choice here specifically is is he going to
go through with his decision togo to Hogwarts?
And will he, because he'salready decided that so, is he
going to go through with it andrisk disappointing himself and
the rest of the wizarding world?
So this seems kind of added alayer onto that decision.
Speaker 2 (18:28):
Or is he going to let his fears and insecurities win
and end up back at his miserablelife with the Dursleys?
So either way.
Speaker 1 (18:32):
He's facing discomfort either way.
And his decision?
We know he shares his fearswith Hagrid and he decides that
he is going to go through withhis choice.
So the resolution here is thathe's still nervous, but
technically he's ready, he hasall the school supplies he's
accomplished.
Here is that he's still nervous, but technically he's ready, he
has all the school supplies.
He's accomplished that goal.
He's ready to go to Hogwarts.
So he heads to the Dursleys andhe spends the rest of the
(18:53):
summer there.
So that's the result ofeverything that has happened.
So let's see what did I put here?
Oh, and this is the climax ofthe beginning, hook right.
So he's already decided to goto Hogwarts in the last chapter.
But his decision wavers becausenow he's exposed to the world
and they expect things from him.
So, luckily for Harry, he'scourageous and by the end of the
(19:15):
scene he commits again to thatfuture that's awaiting him at
Hogwarts.
So this is where we landed.
And I just know there's goingto be people that read through
it and they're like but whatabout all the smaller moments in
the scene?
Because he goes to Gringotts,he meets Draco Malfoy, right,
and he goes to Ollivanders.
He does all of this stuff.
So that's what we wanted totake you through, because it
(19:36):
threw us for a loop too, and wefeel pretty good about where we
landed.
Speaker 2 (19:47):
So anything to add there before we dive in abigail
the amount of times that we haveread, changed this analysis,
read this scene and change thisanalysis.
I just can't even express howmany times it was.
And I say that to let you knowthat you were not alone.
And when you analyze, the answer, not him, and eventually you
just start to make yourdecisions based on your best
opinion about how the scenemoves and changes.
(20:10):
So we're going to explain, like, where we are, but, yes, like
we have a lot to explain anddefend, why we think this one
scene instead of multiple scenes, which I'm sure multiple people
probably are thinking it is,and maybe it's like to you out
there who thinks this ismultiple scenes.
There is no wrong or right tothis.
(20:31):
There is how you defend this,right.
Yeah, and we have evolved ourdefinition of scene, which we've
explained in a previous videowith Sam in a previous interview
.
That, I think, allowed us somefreedom and understanding
purpose of movement, but thatmight not be how you like to
analyze scenes.
For us, this was a tool thathelped us really understand why
(20:55):
we thought this scene hadpurpose with me and also
understanding how the detailsthat were preserved in the scene
are extremely important in work.
Speaker 1 (21:04):
Work is door, yeah, so let's get into it because
it's going to be fun.
We've been very excited to dothis video, so we like to start
at the beginning of the scene,right.
So remember, his objective isto get school supplies at Diagon
Alley.
So to do that, in the firstpart of the scene, harry and
Hagrid they travel to DiagonAlley.
(21:25):
So they leave that shack out atsea where Hagrid showed up and
said you're a wizard, and allthat stuff.
And they travel to London.
And what happens during thistravel is we learn a lot of
important world building details, such as there's this thing
called the Daily Prophet that isthe primary source of news for
witches and wizards.
We learn there's a ministry ofmagic that governs the wizarding
(21:46):
world.
We know dragons exist and theyguard Gringotts, which Hagrid
says it makes it super dangerousto try and rob, and also that
Hagrid really wants a dragon.
He's already talking aboutdragons.
So we learn all this stuff.
We also this is the piece ofthe scene that establishes the
scene goal to purchase schoolsupplies.
Now, at the very end of thismoment, when they're kind of
(22:06):
landing in London from the dockor whatever, there's a part
where you could infer that Harrymight want to keep asking
Hagrid questions about thewizarding world, but ultimately
chooses not to, because Hagrid'sreading a newspaper.
And maybe we could say in hispast the Dursleys have yelled at
him for interrupting orsomething, but that's, we would
be inferring it because none ofit's on the page.
(22:28):
So when we were looking at this, we're like, well, there's not
really a crisis here.
It's not really like Harrythinks there's something to lose
or gain or risk if he asksHagrid for more information.
So we kept looking.
We're like, ok, well, let'sfind that crisis.
Speaker 2 (22:49):
Then we move into the next piece.
But before I go there, do youwant to say anything about this?
Just that, pay attention if youwant to look at.
We're not going to go intoextreme detail on this, but this
diagon alley is an anotherearly accident example of when
maybe it doesn't have a crisis,but the line level, the details
of learning the world, arereally valuable.
So you'll notice and andlearning characters as well,
like this particular part withGringotts.
I don't have it up.
I had the book here, but I'm notgoing to spend time searching
(23:10):
for the pages just yet, but lookfor it the description of when
Hagrid is pulling out Harry'skey for the ball, and it
describes all the things he'spulling out of his pockets.
Yeah, what's the purpose ofpulling out all those crazy
details?
Because it defines Hagrid as acharacter, right, almost like
that exercise of when you'rewriting characters what would
they have in their purse ortheir bag?
Only they're actually puttingit, like Rawlings, actually
(23:33):
putting it on the page.
But it's because what Hagridkeeps in his pockets is funny,
right?
We also learn how the currencyworks, and that is a layer of
world building.
We understand that galleons arethe most valuable of the coins
and then we have sickles andnuts, right?
I think that basically, likeyou're learning how many is in
(23:53):
each Do you need to know thatinformation and understand
currency to a political level oran economic level in order for
us to really enjoy the wizardingworld?
No, but we learn that Harry hasa lot of money and, yeah, it's
going to be something that isgoing to be valuable in
understanding his relationshipwith Ron and some insecurities
(24:15):
that Ron has, but how Harry isvery humble and we'll see that
actually progress even more whenwe're going to run into Draco,
who's not going to be named butwe know is Draco later in the
scene yeah, and so we pull outall these little details and
explanations in the actualmasterwork guide.
Speaker 1 (24:29):
But yeah, let's get into the next little piece here,
because you're stealing mythunder there, abigail, sorry.
So so after we land, harry andHagrid, they go through the
leaky cauldron and what happenshere?
So they every witch and wizard,including Professor Quirrell,
recognizes them.
They're welcoming him back,right, people recognize him,
which starts to escalate thatinternal conflict which was
(24:50):
started here where they were onthe boat.
Because Harry's alreadyrealizing there's so much I
don't know and he's thinking Idon't know if I have money.
That's like the first thing hewakes up thinking so this
internal conflict is there.
And then this really punches itup.
Right, everyone expects thingsof me, but there's not a tough
decision for Harry, so it's justsomething he's reacting to and
(25:11):
the internal conflict isescalating.
He's already nervous, but thisis the first time he's coming
face to face with strangers whohave expectations of him from a
night he doesn't even remember.
So what we're doing isescalating the internal conflict
here.
Then this is where Abigail stolemy thunder.
They go to Greengoth and theyget Harry's money.
We learn about the money.
(25:31):
Hagrid withdraws a mysteriouspackage which piques Harry's
curiosity about it, so hedoesn't face a crisis here
either.
Again, there's a spot where youcould infer maybe Harry's
thinking I want to know moreabout that, but I shouldn't ask
adults questions where you couldinfer maybe Harry's thinking I
want to know more about that,but I shouldn't ask adults
questions.
You could infer that, but wedon't really know.
That's how Harry's feeling,because it's not on the page via
(25:51):
his interiority.
So that's one thing.
The other thing is his goal isstill the same, or his objective
.
So they're still.
They need money to get schoolsupplies.
So it's a tactic or like a theyneed to do this first to
accomplish their goal.
It's a stepping stone, okay.
So now we're moving into.
Harry goes to madam malkin'srobe shop.
(26:11):
He's alone because hagrid,nauseous after the green gots
cart ride, and this is where hemeets that unnamed character
which we knows, draco, who heinstantly dislikes.
And harry does face a crisishere.
So, uh, draco insults Hagridand it's kind of like do I stand
up for Hagrid and make this kidmad and make an enemy, or do I
(26:32):
side with the kid and betray mynew friend Hagrid?
So there is a crisis, but thecrisis isn't strong enough to
create a value shift in thescene.
Like Abigail said, he's unnamed, so we don't really know who he
is.
We're going to meet him latermore officially, but this
interaction to me is more aboutestablishing that tension
between Harry and Draco that'sgoing to become the foundation
(26:55):
for everything else between themin the book and the series, and
it's a little preview of Harrychoosing good Hagrid over evil
slash Malfoy and that actuallythe setup for Harry's character,
which pays off a bunch of timesin the story and things like
that.
Speaker 2 (27:10):
So anything to add here, abigail yeah, so with I am
with you, 100% behind that.
And about establishing Harryand Draco.
Just to reiterate, ruby versusbook, because I don't know which
one you're most familiar withthis didn't even exist in the
movie.
Right, it's a preview to thescene that does have a crisis
(27:31):
with Draco, where Draco extendshis hand and says I'll help you
there, find the best friends,find the lot that you should
side with.
And I think that what'sinteresting about that is like,
why include this here as well,in Diagon Alley, when you're
going to have a larger scale ofit a little bit later?
And what I think is when you gointo a crisis, for this scene in
(27:55):
particular, yes, there is acrisis but, like you're saying,
it doesn't necessarily createthe value shift, instinctive in
defending Hagrid, that whilethere are consequences to making
enemies with Draco or not,they're not really existing in
this scene, the Diagon Alleyscene as a whole, in this moment
(28:16):
, in this scene in the way thatthey are later, when he defines
Draco as his enemy by his choice.
So it's like here there's likedisagreement, but Draco's kind
of feeling Harry out, harry'sfeeling Draco out and he defends
Hagrid, but not necessarilyI've now made an enemy.
It's more butted heads andwe're disagreeing, like Draco's
(28:39):
saying his snotty things.
I think it also is a way in thebook, because remember that in
a book you don't have theadvantage that a movie has,
where you have the actors andyou have the music that's going
to emphasize the dangerouscharacters and the bad
relationship, things like that.
And I think by having thismoment in Diagon Alley, what it
(29:04):
does is it gives us that senseof ick around Draco, mainly
because and also it's going toreally foil with Diagon Alley-
Ron later.
So it's going to.
It's really going to clashthat's a better word.
It's really going to clash withRon later, who is so humble,
(29:25):
who would never be in a firstencounter with someone talking
about.
We shouldn't be letting muggleswho are now witches and wizards
into the wizarding world, likeit's just so opposite and we see
it immediately.
How harry is, that is not how Ialign myself and it's not how I
define, uh, what I findvaluable and what I find
(29:46):
meaningful in my life.
So his immediate reaction todefending hagrid, while it could
come with consequences, I don'tthink harry really cares right
and it don't know in the momentthat you don't need to have a
crisis determined by whether ornot a character cares or not,
because that's not how youdefine a crisis.
But it does just show thatwe're setting up something or
(30:08):
foreshadowing something,necessarily than making it the
purpose of the diagonality.
Speaker 1 (30:13):
Yeah, and we're going to talk about this at the end.
But think about if the goalfrom my perspective is the
author, make my characterinsecure this moment with draco,
who he knows everything.
He's a snotty know-it-all andhe's like, oh, you don't know,
you don't have a housepreference and harry debate.
Am I going to ask him aboutthis?
Am I going to not ask him aboutthat?
Am I going to keep quiet?
Speaker 2 (30:33):
it's a great tool to make harry more insecure which
it does do that, and why did youpoint it out?
Because I thought about thatwhen I was rereading it this
morning.
Yeah, he feels increasinglydumb, yeah, like, especially
when he mentions Quidditch.
Speaker 1 (30:46):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (30:46):
And that's he has to pack right about those things
later.
Speaker 1 (30:49):
Yes.
So think about how we're goingthrough these little micro
moments.
And it's like his goal is toget the school supplies.
It's also internally we said hewants to figure out where he
belongs, he wants to figure outthe wizarding world.
So these little micro momentsis he's accomplishing that
surface level goal of gettingschool supplies and he's not
accomplishing that goal.
In a way he is like he'slearning more but it's making
(31:11):
him very insecure, that internalspace.
So just really interesting tolook at.
So if we keep going, the nextthing that happens is they
reconvene and then there's asummary where they gather a
bunch of other stuff An owl, acauldron, I think, some other
things.
This is where Harry learnsabout the schoolhouses.
Hagrid says even Voldemort wasin Slytherin or something.
So further associating thathouse with the unnamed boy, with
(31:34):
evil and things like that welearn about.
Let's see, this is where Hagriddelivers that line.
There is not a single witch orwizard who went bad.
That wasn't in Slytherin.
So we're getting the lay of theland here and let's see.
So there's so much.
Harry doesn't know by thispoint that his internal conflict
is.
You can start feeling it on thepage when you read it.
He's getting really nervous.
(31:54):
But there's no crisis here andthe goal is the same.
They're still hunting forsupplies.
At the end they say we have onestop left and that's get your
wand.
So that's where we're headed.
Next we go to Ollivander's,where he delivers a line the
wizarding world can expect greatthings, which really cements
what Harry's been worried about.
He's like I feel weird aboutthis.
(32:15):
And now Ollivander's sayingyeah, the world will expect
great things from you, so he'seven more secure of this because
of this.
And then he faces the scenecrisis here.
So he doesn't have, or ittriggers the scene crisis.
There's no crisis in the momentwith Ollivander.
There's nothing he needs todecide to help him get his
(32:35):
supplies or go to school.
It's just kind of Ollivander'stalking at me I'm getting my
wand, and this is the sceneturning point because it
triggers the scene crisis.
So the scene crisis happenedafter it's, ollivander said this
out loud to me I've gotten myschool supplies.
Is it worth me committing tothis and going into the unknown,
even though it's clear I'm notreally ready for it?
(32:56):
So after this this, they leavediagram alley, going back the
way they came.
He expresses his concerns tohagrid.
The scene crisis and climax andresolution occur here.
So harry decides yes, I'm goingto move forward, I'm going to
tap into that courage and do theoriginal plan of going to
hogwarts.
So what's cool here is we cansay, okay, so all of this has
(33:17):
helped.
Like we said, show that thatVTF change, or that beneath the
surface, beyond the surfacechange, we're going from
unequipped to equipped, whichhelps survival.
We're also establishing thestarting point of his character
arc.
So he's gone from, he'sinsecure about his place in the
world and that he's going to bebattling with in addition to the
(33:38):
external conflict throughoutthe entire story.
Speaker 2 (33:41):
I think that you're doing a great job.
It's just that, looking at that, unequipped to equipped,
ignorance to knowledge, noticethat we pulled out the global
internal and the global externaland I think, ultimately, going
back to that way of, can youdefend, if the scene has purpose
, be able to argue why it doesboth right and so the way we
look at the scene, if we go backto let me find that slide where
(34:04):
we looked at the fivecommandments, if we go back to
it, it's kind of like we'regoing again.
Speaker 1 (34:09):
The objective is to get school supplies.
The internal objective forharry is he wants to figure out
what's going on in the world,how he fits in, and all this
stuff, all those individualmicro moments, help him achieve
the objective.
So he gets the school suppliesand they put pressure on that
wound which creates this verynice starting point for the
internal character arc, abigail.
(34:30):
Is it wrong if we've analyzedthis as each individual scene?
Talk to me about that.
Speaker 2 (34:36):
I don't think it's, because my answer to that is
when you ever say wrong or right, I'm always going to say no
because I don't when and we cometo anything with subjectivity,
there's no right or wrong.
It's about how can you bestdefend, how are you going to
make sense of writing your ownstories by analyzing other
stories, and how is that goingto help you see when a scene has
value or not right, ultimately,at Ultimately?
(34:58):
At that same time, I think thatas a book coach and Savannah
and I have talked about thisoutside of this interview as a
book coach, I might be lookingat this and if you were to give
me these scenes, I probablywould challenge you a bit and
I'd say can you have a clearercrisis in these so that we can
get it down more to the 2000word potato chip scene length,
(35:21):
and is there any value incondensing this and having value
changes and goals changedthroughout the scene?
Your answer to that might be noand I'm I'm going to be more
curious and ask you why andthere's no right or wrong to
that answer.
I just want to hear why youthink yes or no and why I think
(35:42):
yes or no, and we provide bothof our opinions on the table and
you make the best decisionbased on that conversation.
Right?
And this is Harry Potter and theSorcerer's Stone.
This is, I believe the sceneworks.
I believe the story isbeautiful.
It is one of my favoritestories of all time.
I think it's foolish to arguethat the story does not done its
(36:03):
job on working as a story.
Right, it's obviously aphenomenon.
At the same time, it is thefirst book that JK Rowling wrote
, so I just want to emphasizethat through our analysis, I
think, analyzing particularlythe banished on Harry Potter and
Sorcerer's Stone, I'm thewriter of Harry Potter and the
Chamber of Secrets.
For the analysis of that one, Ifound one and two much more
(36:28):
difficult to analyze oncondensing into scenes than
seven, which is another one thatI'm doing, and looking at four,
five, six and the ban is lookedat three more than I have with
Prisoner of Azkaban.
So I think it's just.
I think naturally, writersbecome stronger as writers the
more books that you write, andRowling is a masterful writer
(36:51):
from book one.
At that same time, I'm surethat when you look at something
like five, six, seven, thestrength of the writing at least
even just like the implicitknowledge of understanding pace
and things like that probablyfeels a bit stronger and at
least like for me, I felt likeit was a bit stronger.
(37:11):
The further that you get whichmakes total sense, right the
more time that you spend writing, the more natural this pace is,
shifting scenes and changingthem and be more definitive of
the goals, in a way.
Here's like the trick is likein a way that we're not
glaringly putting it in the faceof the reader, it's just
existing, because it's magicallyexisting and we're moving with
(37:32):
it on an entertainment andemotional level.
Right, and you're just going toget better with that.
So, when I'm looking at HarryPotter and the Sorcerer's Stone,
does the scene work?
Yes, I think it does.
Is there maybe if I were tolook at this and get really
nitpicky and I could say arethere opportunities where we
might have been able to tightencertain areas?
(37:52):
Possibly?
I don't know, that doesn'texist, right, that version
doesn't exist.
I do think that you can look atfilms and you're looking at, oh,
like, why would the film makecertain choices on certain
scenes?
And film scenes tend to be alot tighter for a lot of the
reasons that I said earlierabout how, when you have a film,
you don't have to do all thethings that a book has to do.
The iceberg theory, where thefilm is above the surface and
(38:14):
the books below the surface, isreal because a book has a lot
more job, has a lot more rolesin helping the reader visualize
and experience the scene and thestory than the film, because
the film has other players whoare working, just the text,
right.
Yeah, so I think likeultimately to that answer.
My long-winded answer to yourquestion is just that when
(38:37):
you're looking at this yeah,like there's a always a place
where maybe you can say we couldhave done things differently
can you still get to theargument and be able to defend
does this thing work and why itworks?
And the answer to that is yes,then you've done your job right.
Speaker 1 (38:50):
And if you think we sound like a broken record.
It's because we see this holdpeople up so much that we want
to be a broken record.
There's not really a wronganswer.
We're all going to look atthings differently based on our
own experience, and even Abigailand I people ask us all the
time do you guys agree oneverything?
Or like, how does that work?
We disagree on things a lot andwhat we're trying to see is, at
the very end result do weunderstand the same takeaway
(39:13):
from what we're doing?
And in most cases we do.
It doesn't matter what valueshift she calls out or if I call
it ignorance, knowledge, andshe says audit insecurity.
We're getting to the same place.
So it's really cool.
But one thing I want to saybefore we wrap up.
I get this question.
A lot is like writers I'm justpulling this example up on
screen.
We want to write a scene wherethere's like a lot of these
little kind of stops on our wayto accomplish the scene
(39:35):
objective.
You might start writing a bookwhere maybe we have six scenes
quote-unquote, of a scene likeDiagon Alley where we're going
to these stops and and what?
We broke this into individualscenes at one point too, and we
started seeing that the goalhasn't changed.
So, yes, he's getting an owl inthe scene, yes, he's getting a
wand in the scene, but overallwe're getting school supplies,
(40:03):
and you might see that in yourstory too.
So you might start out writingsix of these with the same
crisis and the same goal and thesame type of value shift, and
you might say, oh, these areprogressive complications within
a scene instead of being onescene each.
So that's how we landed here.
Is we started realizing, oh,they're progressing his
insecurity and also they'restepping stones on his way to
(40:23):
getting his supplies and closingout that scene objective?
So that's how we got here.
And again, that's not a firstdraft thing.
So if you write six scenes thatare like this, it's not wrong.
You just might find in editingthat they're not actually six
scenes.
We don't need to spend sixscenes in Diagon Alley or
somewhere like it.
They're more just likeprogressive complications within
a scene.
(40:44):
So I just wanted to bring thatup because writers are very
concerned about the micro momentin a first draft and I think we
need to be easier on ourselves.
Speaker 2 (40:53):
Yes, yeah, and I could go over that just to
support that, because I see thatall the time you like, when
you're writing a plan for a book, you're only looking at that
big plot level, that story eventsynthesis.
Ultimately, there are going tobe details in the scene itself
and I think that when you lookat the Diagon Alley scene yes,
(41:15):
to emphasize the world buildingand the character moments, again
, the details that rollingspends time on have purpose.
There's a reason why professorcoral gets a lot more name and
attention during the leakcauldron scene and why actually
harry names professor pearlagain along with olivander at
(41:35):
the end, because she, hey, thisone's going to be more important
than others, right?
So there are little clues likethat.
So when you're an author andyou're making choices in
description and what you keep asdetails, just make sure that
they have value.
Most of Diagon Alley isequipping again the end with
equipped unequipped to equipped.
Right.
We're equipping Harry withtools.
(41:58):
We're going to get Hedwig.
We don't spend a ton of detailand time on Hedwig.
We know it's a snowy owl, butit's important that we get
Hedwig right, right, and I thinkthat it's just like when you're
spending time on the Ollivanderscene, like part of the scene.
We spend a lot of time in thereand there's a reason for that
(42:19):
and the reason for that evenspeaks to a greater level than
just this book.
So I think it's just importantthat when you're making choices
with description just always belooking like final edits, right
mind level edits what did youchoose to keep and why and how
is there value in that?
But when you're starting out inthese earlier drafts, we're
thinking goals, right goals andinternal stakes being raised,
(42:44):
and how are you beating the goaland how is that moving the
external stakes and challengingexternal stakes, and how are the
internal stakes beingchallenged within those external
confinements?
Speaker 1 (42:55):
yeah, and a little behind the scenes of our own
process, is we at one point welooked at each other and we were
like how would we tell a writerto write this kind of scene?
And we looked at each other insilence like I don't know.
And so that's what started thisconversation of what would we
do if we were coaching JKRowling which could you imagine?
But we were coaching her andshe wanted to write the scene
(43:17):
and we might Abigail and Iagreed like we might just say,
write it as five or six scenesand then we'll see what happens.
So sometimes you do need tojust get it on the page and we
would probably coach writers asif these were scenes.
But then in the editing wewould condense them and say,
really, what we're doing here iswe're complicating that
internal arc of the scene andmake decisions based on that.
(43:39):
So is this the answer for everyscene?
No, you might have.
For example, if let's pretendwe deleted everything but
Gringotts and Ollivanders, if wejust had those two scenes.
And we do have a lot ofconflict in each scene, but we
don't have crisis moments really.
So if we were coaching a writerthrough those two moments and
(44:00):
they were two separate scenes,we would say can we build out
the crisis moments, like, how dowe make these different so that
they read as somethingenjoyable and engaging instead
of just more of the same?
So we're not saying this is theanswer for every scene.
We don't want you to combineeverything into one big scene
every time you're faced withthis, but just some things to
think about which I think arehelpful.
Speaker 2 (44:19):
So Madame Mouth's scene with Draco.
How is that scene differentthan the scene later?
Right?
When he has to make the choicelike how is it a bigger crisis
than it was before?
And maybe that's why there'snot really a crisis that we see
in that moment before becausewould it be redundant, would it
feel redundant?
Speaker 1 (44:38):
And we had the same thing later.
Right, it's exactly what yousaid, too is there is no need
for immediate consequences inDiagon Alley, because that's not
what that moment is about.
There's so many levers andthings that you're going to need
to pull and reevaluate your ownstory.
So we hope that by showing youthis breakdown and talking
through how we look at it, itmakes it less scary and less
(44:58):
overwhelming to know that, likeyou, don't have to get this on
your first draft.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (45:03):
And you're not going to get out in your first draft.
You're going to be lucky if youdo Just accept that you don't
have to right.
Speaker 1 (45:07):
Yeah, and we don't.
We wouldn't want you or coachyou to to plan to this detail
either.
If you think this feelsoverwhelming and I can't do this
, you're not alone.
We wouldn't expect you to do iteither.
So just remember, this is whyrevisions are so important, and
you can only do so much on yourfirst draft.
So just a caveat to throw outthere, because, honestly, we've
(45:28):
been there too.
Studying this book makes us wewant to write books like this
too.
It's overwhelming, buthopefully easier once you see
our breakdown and see how allthe moving parts work together
easier.
Once you see our breakdown andsee how all the moving parts
work together, it can becomeless overwhelming and more fun
because you have the tools toplay with.
Okay, so I hope you enjoyed thatdeep dive into chapter five of
Harry Potter and the Sorcerer'sStone and if you liked this
(45:50):
episode, you will absolutelylove my new book, the Story Grid
Masterwork Analysis Guide toHarry Potter and the Sorcerer's
Stone, because we break down theentire story on a
scene-by-scene basis and so muchmore.
I'm so proud of this book and Ihope you will check it out.
At the time of this recording,I'm offering a handful of
bonuses with proof of purchase.
So, yes, for the price of onebook, you will get so much more
(46:14):
than just a book, and if youwant to see what I'm talking
about, you can go tosavannagilbocom forward slash
masterwork to get all the juicydetails.
So that's it for today'sepisode.
As always, thank you so much fortuning in and for showing your
support.
If you want to check out any ofthe links I mentioned in this
episode, you can find them inthe show notes listed in the
(46:36):
description of each episodeinside your podcast player or at
savannahgilbocom forward slashpodcast.
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a few seconds to leave a ratingand a review.
Your ratings and reviews tellApple that this is a podcast
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(46:57):
you.
And while you're there, goahead and hit that follow button
, because there's going to beanother brand new episode next
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become a better writer.
So I'll see you next week anduntil then, happy writing.
Harry goes to Madame Malkin's robe shop.
He's alone because Hagrid'snauseous after the Gringotts
cart ride, and this is where hemeets that unnamed character,
which we know is Draco, who heinstantly dislikes.
And Harry does face a crisishere.
So Draco insults Hagrid andit's kind of like do I stand up
for Hagrid and make this kid madand make an enemy, or do I side
(00:23):
with the kid and betray my newfriend Hagrid?
So there is a crisis, but thecrisis isn't strong enough to
create a value shift in thescene.
Welcome to the Fiction WritingMade Easy podcast.
My name is Savannah Gilbo andI'm here to help you write a
story that works.
I want to prove to you thatwriting a novel doesn't have to
(00:44):
be overwhelming.
So each week I'll bring you abrand new episode with simple,
actionable and step-by-stepstrategies that you can
implement in your writing rightaway.
So whether you're brand new towriting or more of a seasoned
author looking to improve yourcraft, this podcast is for you.
So pick up a pen and let's getstarted.
In today's episode, I'm takingyou down a little bit of a
(01:07):
rabbit hole into one of thescenes in Harry Potter and the
Sorcerer's Stone, and that isthe scene in chapter five,
Diagon Alley.
Now I wanted to go on a deepdive into this scene because it
was one of the hardest scenesfor me to analyze when I was
putting together the Story GridMasterwork Analysis Guide that
I've been talking about for thelast few weeks, and I wanted to
(01:28):
take you behind the scenes toshare where Abigail and I landed
in terms of is this one scene,two scenes or multiple scenes,
and how does it actually workfrom a craft perspective?
So we recorded a video forStoryGrid's YouTube channel and
I'm going to share the audio ofthat video with you today.
I will also post the link tothe video in the show notes in
case you want to check that outas well.
(01:50):
Now I am going to provide aquick summary of the Diagon
Alley scene, but you might wantto read through the chapter and
then listen to this episodeagain after you've
re-familiarized yourself withthe text.
I think it will help you seewhat I'm talking about in a
little bit of a different way.
If you've actually read thescene In the episode, you're
going to hear Abigail and I talkabout how we look at scenes in
(02:10):
the Masterwork Analysis Guide.
So the four questions that weuse to analyze every single
scene in this book and then Iwill walk you through the nuts
and bolts of these smallermoments within the scene to show
you how everything works.
So it really is a jam-packed,deep dive type of episode and I
think you're really going toenjoy it.
So, with that being said, let'sgo ahead and dive right into
(02:32):
the conversation.
Okay, so we are back to talk toyou today about Diagon Alley,
which is one of the hardestscenes that we had to analyze
for this masterwork analysisguide, and in part, it's because
there's so much going on.
It's the whole chapter is about6,500 words, which is a lot,
but we wanna walk you throughwhat might seem like a strange
(02:55):
result to land at.
So we landed that, this wholechapter being one scene and I
know that we're going to getquestions about that, despite
what we have in the analysisguide.
So we really wanted to walk youthrough the logic and just show
you how we broke it down.
So I think this will be reallyfun.
I'm going to go ahead and readthis little short summary of
what happens in the chapter andthen we will dig into it.
So, in this chapter, Harry andHagrid, they go to Diagon Alley.
(03:18):
They're going to pick up schoolsupplies and a package for
Dumbledore.
They pass through the LeakyCauldron where every witch and
wizard, including Harry'ssoon-to-be professor Quirrell,
recognizes Harry.
Then they visit Gringotts andthey get Harry's money and a
mysterious package forDumbledore that Harry is very
curious about.
After that, Harry gets fittedfor a robe at Madame Malkin's
(03:39):
Robe Shop, where he meets anunnamed first-year student,
which we know is Draco Malfoy,who he immediately dislikes.
And then Harry and Hagrid visittheir last stop, which is
Ollivander's, where Harry getshis wand, and in the shop, Mr
Ollivander has a lot to sayabout Harry's legacy, including
that the world can expect greatthings from him, especially now
that he has the brother ofVoldemort's wand, which is no
(04:02):
big deal, right.
And then later in the samescene, Harry tells Hagrid that
he doesn't think he can live upto everyone's expectations, but
Hagrid reassures him you'll befine once you get to Hogwarts.
So very condensed version ofwhat happens.
We want to walk you through howwe analyze this and why we got
to our answer.
So Abigail's going to talk usthrough how we analyze it and
(04:24):
then we'll go through the scenespecifically.
Speaker 2 (04:26):
Sure.
So we're looking for a storyevent, which means that we're
looking for how there's anactive change of a universal
human value for one or morecharacters.
Usually we're tracking theprotagonist right.
So how is there a value change,something that is important to
this character?
What is their goal, how they'regoing to achieve that, how is
(04:47):
there a value change from thebeginning of the scene into the
end of it?
And this is because there is aconflict that is then going to
force them to make a decision.
That decision is going tocreate an action that is going
to create the value shift.
So a working scene means atleast one of these story events
in order to work as the scene,in order to figure out if
there's a working scene, you'dlike to answer for Socratic
(05:09):
questions.
So the first of these questionsis what are the characters
literally doing, that is, whatare their micro, on the surface
actions?
We see this as the reader'sperspective, so you're thinking
about this on the most literalscale of things.
This can be as simple as alocation, right?
So it is truly just plot.
(05:30):
What has happened literally inthe plot to show that we've
advanced this, advanced thestory by the scene change, okay.
Speaker 1 (05:38):
And so in Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone
in this scene, what they'redoing literally is they're
shopping for school supplies inDiagon Alley.
So the change we called outhere was that Harry was in the
muggle world and now he's in thewizarding world.
So again, very literal.
You don't need a ton of contextto get this OTS change.
Speaker 2 (05:57):
It's just what's actually happening on the
surface and then the secondquestion is going to deal with
the character's perspective.
So here we're thinking whyinternal right, like what's
going on internally?
How is this developing thecharacter?
Remember that characters arebest developed by crisis, by
putting them in a crisis,because then they're forced to
(06:18):
make a decision and that's goingto develop their character.
So we learn who a character isby how they make decisions.
When you're looking at thequestion itself, we label this
as what is the essential tacticof the character?
What above-the-surface macrobehaviors are they employing
that are linked to the universalhuman value?
(06:39):
So, to phrase that, like, whatis the value change, that
literal change, right?
And how is the character goingto be forced to make a decision
that's going to help them changewhere they are internally and
how they are?
You know, seeing something howare they starting?
(06:59):
Where they are?
Where's their mindset at thereat the beginning?
Where is it at the end?
Speaker 1 (07:04):
Yeah, and you can think about this too.
That helped me is like what dothey want?
Why do they want it and whatare they doing and how are they
coming at this thing that theywant?
So it's internal.
So in harry potter and thesorcerer's stone, we know harry
is like brand new to everything.
In diagon alley he wants tounderstand the world he's a part
of and then once, once he getsthere, conflict happens because
(07:25):
he's like there's so much Idon't know, I don't understand,
so he starts feeling insecure.
Now we also like to look atthis from a couple of different
perspectives, because we'renerds and it's fun.
Also, it's helpful for writingyour own stories.
But the wizarding world plays apart in this too.
So they're, in a way, theantagonist of this scene.
Right, Because Harry wants tounderstand things.
(07:45):
He doesn't really like being inthe spotlight and they're going
to pull him into the spotlight.
So and it's just because ofwhat they naturally want so the
wizarding world, all the witchesand wizards they want to
welcome Harry back and give himthe recognition and the fanfare
and the hugs that he deserves.
But it makes Harry reallyuncomfortable.
So he wants to learn about theworld, but once he does.
He's like I don't know if Ihave what it takes to live up to
(08:07):
your expectations.
There's a whole lot I don'tknow.
So it's what Harry wants versuswhat the scene antagonist wants
, which in this case is thewizarding world, and there's
shades of this as we get into itwhich we'll talk about.
So the change we called outhere is he had ignorance or he
was ignorant about the wizardingworld.
He has some knowledge.
By the end of the scene.
He came in feeling a sense ofawe and he left the scene
(08:31):
feeling insecure.
So these are internal valuesthat we can tie back to the
global story, which we'll talkabout in a second Yep.
Speaker 2 (08:38):
And then the third question deals with what, beyond
the surface, universal humanvalues have changed for more one
or more characters in the sceneand which of those value
changes is most important to beincluded in the story grid
spreadsheet.
So we're thinking about this asauthor perspective.
Another way that we look atthis is when you're choosing the
value that goes with thespreadsheet you're thinking how
(09:00):
can I defend that this sceneimpacts the global value shift?
So we're working with an actionstory.
In general, we're on a life anddeath value spectrum scale.
You can use different words toemphasize where that life and
death is.
Ultimately it's saying thatwe're on the survival scale.
Where are we and how is thisscene?
(09:20):
Even if Diagon Alley doesn'tnecessarily have a life
threatening moment in the sceneand, by the way, there should be
plenty of scenes that don'thave that literal life and death
, because otherwise it's way toointense all over the place
You're going to undervalue theones that really do have those
moments.
But regardless of that in thiscan we say, what happens in this
(09:42):
scene still influences andimpacts the value shift on that
life and death scale.
So the author knows this,because the author is God of the
story.
The author knows what thereader and what the characters
don't know, which means thatthat's how they can play and
move their chess pieces in a waythat creates surprises and as
important stuff like is this ascene that I kill my darlings
(10:03):
with, or do I keep it, and whydo I keep it?
Speaker 1 (10:05):
So that's how we make a decision with this question
yeah, and so and this is, Ithink, has developed into our
favorite, uh, way of looking atscenes, just because it's it's
so sometimes hard to thinkthrough, but really rewarding
once you get to the answer andyou're like, okay, I get it.
So in this scene, what wecalled out was, although harry
feels insecure about his abilityto assimilate into the
(10:25):
wizarding world and live up thatreputation that other people
have of him, or the expectations, he does succeed in collecting
everything he needs to go toHogwarts and he's going to go
there, learn all those spells,forge the alliances and develop
that confidence and courageneeded to face Voldemort in the
end and courage needed to faceVoldemort in the end.
So on one hand, he's grown moreinsecure, but he's also
(10:46):
accomplished his scene goal, orthat objective, which is get
your school supplies and thevisit to Gringotts.
We'll go into these littlemicro bits in a second.
But the visit to Gringotts isespecially important because
this is what piques Harry'scuriosity and that need to find
out what's in the package and ifhe's not curious about it, he's
(11:10):
not curious about it.
He's not going to be called toinvestigate or later protect it,
and if he doesn't do that, thenVoldemort will succeed in
coming to power again.
So that's what Abigail wassaying all these little chess
pieces.
There's so many differentthings going on and the author,
from this analysis perspectivewe pretend to be the author so
we know something very differentthan a first time reader will,
in that, on the surface of,we're just visiting Diagon Alley
and having a great time, andHarry's also seeing something
(11:30):
different.
He's feeling insecurity andalso wonder and all that.
So it's a really cool way toplay with all the different
layers.
And the BTS change we calledout here was that he's going
from unequipped to equipped,because Abigail said what is
going to move us along thatglobal value spectrum?
What's going to help him bemore equipped to survive or more
able to survive or less, and inthis case, getting the supplies
(11:54):
and going to Hogwarts.
Speaker 2 (11:55):
Yeah, and just look at that Like, ultimately, what
is this question doing?
It's answering why this scenematters.
Speaker 1 (12:01):
And it's answering.
Speaker 2 (12:02):
I need to look at Savannah's write up for this.
Why does this matter for this?
Why does this matter internallyand why does it matter
externally?
We've had an external question,we've had an internal question
and now we're marrying the tworight, Right, and then you're
choosing your value shift basedon that global value spectrum.
So where are we in that?
Un-equipped to equipped?
Notice, it is not saying lifeto death, death to life, any of
(12:22):
those, but it affects it, Right?
We like to say and this is oneof the greatest things that gave
me freedom and analyzing, I wassuper spiraled and then I felt
like I had to literally writedown life or death and I
realized the word was shacklingme from really my understanding
of what the value change couldbe.
Unequipped to equipped, we canargue.
(12:42):
Being equipped is going to helpyou preserve your life, right?
So just don't overthink thewords that you pick for the
value change.
Just make sure that they makesense, right and like.
Sometimes we don't even pick asingle word.
You'll notice, in the analysisstory we describe something.
So it's like I just I thinkthat like, that was something
for me.
When I first started analyzingstories with masterworks, I
(13:06):
really felt restricted in what Ihad to do with the words and
then I realized, like wait, Idon't have to just pick one
single word.
And again, it's not unequippedto equipped.
You might have a differentvalue change in your mind of
what the scene can do, but canyou argue still that it impacts
the life or death value spectrum?
If the answer to that is yes,then you're moving in a better
(13:28):
way of, I think, analyzing thescene in order to determine if
it has value or not in the story.
Speaker 1 (13:32):
Yeah, and you'll see, like Abigail said, we kind of
left our versions of, like, somescenes.
We might have three options forwhat describes a value shift,
and it's because we couldn'tpick.
We, because we couldn't pick.
We want to show you that wedon't have the perfect answers,
and it's okay, because we allget to that same conclusion and
that's what helps us write astory.
So these are the three.
There's still one more becausewe want to kind of synthesize
(13:53):
all this and bring it together,what we're going to put on the
spreadsheet.
Let me click ahead to the nextone here.
Speaker 2 (13:59):
There we go.
Fourth question is the sceneevent synthesis?
Here we go.
Fourth question is the sceneevent synthesis?
So what story event sums up thescenes on the surface about the
surface change?
Imagine.
This says if you were to saywhat the log line is for this
scene, what is that sentence?
Go ahead, savannah.
Speaker 1 (14:16):
Yeah.
So here we said Harry andHagrid visit Diagon Alley this
is the OTS on the surface topurchase school supplies and
Harry grows more insecure abouthis place in the wizarding world
.
That kind of wraps up the ATSon the surface to purchase
school supplies and Harry growsmore insecure about his place in
the wizarding world.
That kind of wraps up the ATSright.
His goal or objective is to getschool supplies.
He's feeling insecure about itand then, especially, he's
growing more insecure especiallyafter visiting Ollivanders.
(14:37):
So it grabs all three of thosethings and shows what's the core
bit of the scene, why is itimportant, why does it matter?
And, like Abigail said, this iswhat we put on the spreadsheet
if you're using one, so it is alog line for your scene.
It's the most succinct way youcan show why it matters and how
it does more than one thing too,which is really cool.
Speaker 2 (14:57):
And, as book coaches, we know that writing this
sentence is hard.
Okay, yes, it's hard for us too.
It's hard for us too.
This is an over 6 000 wordscene.
It is hard to sum up everythingcrucial to basically describing
the point of this story, thispoint of the scene in this story
, in one sentence.
Right, look, when you're doingthis, I always say, just write
(15:18):
long and edit down, but when youcan do it in one sentence, this
essentially.
Now you know that you'reprobably on track with the scene
because you've simplifiedsomething complex, right, and I
want to determine purpose, right, yeah, and that whole thing is,
it's about purpose.
So, using those ATS, ots, ats,bts as a combination is a way
(15:38):
for you to help make the harddecision and take out the words
that don't need to exist in thesentence.
Speaker 1 (15:45):
Yeah, and, like we talked about in one of the
previous videos, Tim mentionedin one of the scenes he was
missing something exciting onthe surface level.
So he had a bunch of stuff that, as the author, he knew it was
important to you know, putpressure on his protagonist to
grow and change in that sceneand he knew why it was important
.
But he read back through it andhe realized that maybe for a
first time reader who doesn'tknow where the story is going,
(16:07):
they're not going to find itexciting.
So these different perspectivesare a great editing tool and I
think both Abigail and I wouldagree You're not going to have
all of these things figured outwhen you write a first draft.
It's really more of thatediting magic.
Speaker 2 (16:20):
So just something to keep in mind.
Right, and this is a lot easierto write this sentence because
that scene is existing, likeexists in a published work.
Right, that has been editedover and over and over again.
Speaker 1 (16:31):
And because we know the whole story.
It would be very hard to saywhat is the actual purpose
without knowing the whole story.
Yeah, very true, just somethings to keep in mind.
And now we wanted to run youthrough where we landed.
So, after we went through anddid that analysis, where did we
land with the five commandmentsfor this scene?
So again, what's his objective?
Right, they want to go getschool supplies and they're
(16:52):
going to go to Diagon Alley.
So the first bit of conflictthat gets in the way is witches
and wizards in the LeakyCauldron recognize Harry and
they're like welcome back, welove you.
All this stuff, right?
So it's not expected by Harryat all.
So it's conflict that starts toput pressure on that internal
piece where he's like oh,everyone expects these things of
(17:13):
me and I don't even know whatthe wizarding world is yet.
But then there's a bunch ofprogressive complications, which
we will look at in a second,and the turning point happens
when Mr Ollivander says theworld can expect great things
from you, especially now thatyou have the brother to
Voldemort's wand.
So it's confirmed, all theseworries that Harry has.
Mr Ollivander is like yeah, theworld's going to expect you to
(17:34):
be a pretty darn good wizard.
So Harry faces a best badchoice decision.
Do you want to explain whatbest bad choice is, abigail?
So best bad choice.
Speaker 2 (17:42):
No matter what choice you pick, it's a negative
result.
Right, so there can be areconcilable goods decisions.
It's not the case in this scene.
That's the inverse of the bestbad choice.
That means that both optionsare good, but usually it
actually impacts the third partywhat your choice is.
But in this case, no matterwhat Harry chooses, even if he
doesn't choose something, it'sgoing to result in a negative
(18:03):
consequence or it's going to bea tough thing.
Speaker 1 (18:06):
So his choice here specifically is is he going to
go through with his decision togo to Hogwarts?
And will he, because he'salready decided that so, is he
going to go through with it andrisk disappointing himself and
the rest of the wizarding world?
So this seems kind of added alayer onto that decision.
Speaker 2 (18:28):
Or is he going to let his fears and insecurities win
and end up back at his miserablelife with the Dursleys?
So either way.
Speaker 1 (18:32):
He's facing discomfort either way.
And his decision?
We know he shares his fearswith Hagrid and he decides that
he is going to go through withhis choice.
So the resolution here is thathe's still nervous, but
technically he's ready, he hasall the school supplies he's
accomplished.
Here is that he's still nervous, but technically he's ready, he
has all the school supplies.
He's accomplished that goal.
He's ready to go to Hogwarts.
So he heads to the Dursleys andhe spends the rest of the
(18:53):
summer there.
So that's the result ofeverything that has happened.
So let's see what did I put here?
Oh, and this is the climax ofthe beginning, hook right.
So he's already decided to goto Hogwarts in the last chapter.
But his decision wavers becausenow he's exposed to the world
and they expect things from him.
So, luckily for Harry, he'scourageous and by the end of the
(19:15):
scene he commits again to thatfuture that's awaiting him at
Hogwarts.
So this is where we landed.
And I just know there's goingto be people that read through
it and they're like but whatabout all the smaller moments in
the scene?
Because he goes to Gringotts,he meets Draco Malfoy, right,
and he goes to Ollivanders.
He does all of this stuff.
So that's what we wanted totake you through, because it
(19:36):
threw us for a loop too, and wefeel pretty good about where we
landed.
Speaker 2 (19:47):
So anything to add there before we dive in abigail
the amount of times that we haveread, changed this analysis,
read this scene and change thisanalysis.
I just can't even express howmany times it was.
And I say that to let you knowthat you were not alone.
And when you analyze, the answer, not him, and eventually you
just start to make yourdecisions based on your best
opinion about how the scenemoves and changes.
(20:10):
So we're going to explain, like, where we are, but, yes, like
we have a lot to explain anddefend, why we think this one
scene instead of multiple scenes, which I'm sure multiple people
probably are thinking it is,and maybe it's like to you out
there who thinks this ismultiple scenes.
There is no wrong or right tothis.
(20:31):
There is how you defend this,right.
Yeah, and we have evolved ourdefinition of scene, which we've
explained in a previous videowith Sam in a previous interview
.
That, I think, allowed us somefreedom and understanding
purpose of movement, but thatmight not be how you like to
analyze scenes.
For us, this was a tool thathelped us really understand why
(20:55):
we thought this scene hadpurpose with me and also
understanding how the detailsthat were preserved in the scene
are extremely important in work.
Speaker 1 (21:04):
Work is door, yeah, so let's get into it because
it's going to be fun.
We've been very excited to dothis video, so we like to start
at the beginning of the scene,right.
So remember, his objective isto get school supplies at Diagon
Alley.
So to do that, in the firstpart of the scene, harry and
Hagrid they travel to DiagonAlley.
(21:25):
So they leave that shack out atsea where Hagrid showed up and
said you're a wizard, and allthat stuff.
And they travel to London.
And what happens during thistravel is we learn a lot of
important world building details, such as there's this thing
called the Daily Prophet that isthe primary source of news for
witches and wizards.
We learn there's a ministry ofmagic that governs the wizarding
(21:46):
world.
We know dragons exist and theyguard Gringotts, which Hagrid
says it makes it super dangerousto try and rob, and also that
Hagrid really wants a dragon.
He's already talking aboutdragons.
So we learn all this stuff.
We also this is the piece ofthe scene that establishes the
scene goal to purchase schoolsupplies.
Now, at the very end of thismoment, when they're kind of
(22:06):
landing in London from the dockor whatever, there's a part
where you could infer that Harrymight want to keep asking
Hagrid questions about thewizarding world, but ultimately
chooses not to, because Hagrid'sreading a newspaper.
And maybe we could say in hispast the Dursleys have yelled at
him for interrupting orsomething, but that's, we would
be inferring it because none ofit's on the page.
(22:28):
So when we were looking at this, we're like, well, there's not
really a crisis here.
It's not really like Harrythinks there's something to lose
or gain or risk if he asksHagrid for more information.
So we kept looking.
We're like, ok, well, let'sfind that crisis.
Speaker 2 (22:49):
Then we move into the next piece.
But before I go there, do youwant to say anything about this?
Just that, pay attention if youwant to look at.
We're not going to go intoextreme detail on this, but this
diagon alley is an anotherearly accident example of when
maybe it doesn't have a crisis,but the line level, the details
of learning the world, arereally valuable.
So you'll notice and andlearning characters as well,
like this particular part withGringotts.
I don't have it up.
I had the book here, but I'm notgoing to spend time searching
(23:10):
for the pages just yet, but lookfor it the description of when
Hagrid is pulling out Harry'skey for the ball, and it
describes all the things he'spulling out of his pockets.
Yeah, what's the purpose ofpulling out all those crazy
details?
Because it defines Hagrid as acharacter, right, almost like
that exercise of when you'rewriting characters what would
they have in their purse ortheir bag?
Only they're actually puttingit, like Rawlings, actually
(23:33):
putting it on the page.
But it's because what Hagridkeeps in his pockets is funny,
right?
We also learn how the currencyworks, and that is a layer of
world building.
We understand that galleons arethe most valuable of the coins
and then we have sickles andnuts, right?
I think that basically, likeyou're learning how many is in
(23:53):
each Do you need to know thatinformation and understand
currency to a political level oran economic level in order for
us to really enjoy the wizardingworld?
No, but we learn that Harry hasa lot of money and, yeah, it's
going to be something that isgoing to be valuable in
understanding his relationshipwith Ron and some insecurities
(24:15):
that Ron has, but how Harry isvery humble and we'll see that
actually progress even more whenwe're going to run into Draco,
who's not going to be named butwe know is Draco later in the
scene yeah, and so we pull outall these little details and
explanations in the actualmasterwork guide.
Speaker 1 (24:29):
But yeah, let's get into the next little piece here,
because you're stealing mythunder there, abigail, sorry.
So so after we land, harry andHagrid, they go through the
leaky cauldron and what happenshere?
So they every witch and wizard,including Professor Quirrell,
recognizes them.
They're welcoming him back,right, people recognize him,
which starts to escalate thatinternal conflict which was
(24:50):
started here where they were onthe boat.
Because Harry's alreadyrealizing there's so much I
don't know and he's thinking Idon't know if I have money.
That's like the first thing hewakes up thinking so this
internal conflict is there.
And then this really punches itup.
Right, everyone expects thingsof me, but there's not a tough
decision for Harry, so it's justsomething he's reacting to and
(25:11):
the internal conflict isescalating.
He's already nervous, but thisis the first time he's coming
face to face with strangers whohave expectations of him from a
night he doesn't even remember.
So what we're doing isescalating the internal conflict
here.
Then this is where Abigail stolemy thunder.
They go to Greengoth and theyget Harry's money.
We learn about the money.
(25:31):
Hagrid withdraws a mysteriouspackage which piques Harry's
curiosity about it, so hedoesn't face a crisis here
either.
Again, there's a spot where youcould infer maybe Harry's
thinking I want to know moreabout that, but I shouldn't ask
adults questions where you couldinfer maybe Harry's thinking I
want to know more about that,but I shouldn't ask adults
questions.
You could infer that, but wedon't really know.
That's how Harry's feeling,because it's not on the page via
(25:51):
his interiority.
So that's one thing.
The other thing is his goal isstill the same, or his objective
.
So they're still.
They need money to get schoolsupplies.
So it's a tactic or like a theyneed to do this first to
accomplish their goal.
It's a stepping stone, okay.
So now we're moving into.
Harry goes to madam malkin'srobe shop.
(26:11):
He's alone because hagrid,nauseous after the green gots
cart ride, and this is where hemeets that unnamed character
which we knows, draco, who heinstantly dislikes.
And harry does face a crisishere.
So, uh, draco insults Hagridand it's kind of like do I stand
up for Hagrid and make this kidmad and make an enemy, or do I
(26:32):
side with the kid and betray mynew friend Hagrid?
So there is a crisis, but thecrisis isn't strong enough to
create a value shift in thescene.
Like Abigail said, he's unnamed, so we don't really know who he
is.
We're going to meet him latermore officially, but this
interaction to me is more aboutestablishing that tension
between Harry and Draco that'sgoing to become the foundation
(26:55):
for everything else between themin the book and the series, and
it's a little preview of Harrychoosing good Hagrid over evil
slash Malfoy and that actuallythe setup for Harry's character,
which pays off a bunch of timesin the story and things like
that.
Speaker 2 (27:10):
So anything to add here, abigail yeah, so with I am
with you, 100% behind that.
And about establishing Harryand Draco.
Just to reiterate, ruby versusbook, because I don't know which
one you're most familiar withthis didn't even exist in the
movie.
Right, it's a preview to thescene that does have a crisis
(27:31):
with Draco, where Draco extendshis hand and says I'll help you
there, find the best friends,find the lot that you should
side with.
And I think that what'sinteresting about that is like,
why include this here as well,in Diagon Alley, when you're
going to have a larger scale ofit a little bit later?
And what I think is when you gointo a crisis, for this scene in
(27:55):
particular, yes, there is acrisis but, like you're saying,
it doesn't necessarily createthe value shift, instinctive in
defending Hagrid, that whilethere are consequences to making
enemies with Draco or not,they're not really existing in
this scene, the Diagon Alleyscene as a whole, in this moment
(28:16):
, in this scene in the way thatthey are later, when he defines
Draco as his enemy by his choice.
So it's like here there's likedisagreement, but Draco's kind
of feeling Harry out, harry'sfeeling Draco out and he defends
Hagrid, but not necessarilyI've now made an enemy.
It's more butted heads andwe're disagreeing, like Draco's
(28:39):
saying his snotty things.
I think it also is a way in thebook, because remember that in
a book you don't have theadvantage that a movie has,
where you have the actors andyou have the music that's going
to emphasize the dangerouscharacters and the bad
relationship, things like that.
And I think by having thismoment in Diagon Alley, what it
(29:04):
does is it gives us that senseof ick around Draco, mainly
because and also it's going toreally foil with Diagon Alley-
Ron later.
So it's going to.
It's really going to clashthat's a better word.
It's really going to clash withRon later, who is so humble,
(29:25):
who would never be in a firstencounter with someone talking
about.
We shouldn't be letting muggleswho are now witches and wizards
into the wizarding world, likeit's just so opposite and we see
it immediately.
How harry is, that is not how Ialign myself and it's not how I
define, uh, what I findvaluable and what I find
(29:46):
meaningful in my life.
So his immediate reaction todefending hagrid, while it could
come with consequences, I don'tthink harry really cares right
and it don't know in the momentthat you don't need to have a
crisis determined by whether ornot a character cares or not,
because that's not how youdefine a crisis.
But it does just show thatwe're setting up something or
(30:08):
foreshadowing something,necessarily than making it the
purpose of the diagonality.
Speaker 1 (30:13):
Yeah, and we're going to talk about this at the end.
But think about if the goalfrom my perspective is the
author, make my characterinsecure this moment with draco,
who he knows everything.
He's a snotty know-it-all andhe's like, oh, you don't know,
you don't have a housepreference and harry debate.
Am I going to ask him aboutthis?
Am I going to not ask him aboutthat?
Am I going to keep quiet?
Speaker 2 (30:33):
it's a great tool to make harry more insecure which
it does do that, and why did youpoint it out?
Because I thought about thatwhen I was rereading it this
morning.
Yeah, he feels increasinglydumb, yeah, like, especially
when he mentions Quidditch.
Speaker 1 (30:46):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (30:46):
And that's he has to pack right about those things
later.
Speaker 1 (30:49):
Yes.
So think about how we're goingthrough these little micro
moments.
And it's like his goal is toget the school supplies.
It's also internally we said hewants to figure out where he
belongs, he wants to figure outthe wizarding world.
So these little micro momentsis he's accomplishing that
surface level goal of gettingschool supplies and he's not
accomplishing that goal.
In a way he is like he'slearning more but it's making
(31:11):
him very insecure, that internalspace.
So just really interesting tolook at.
So if we keep going, the nextthing that happens is they
reconvene and then there's asummary where they gather a
bunch of other stuff An owl, acauldron, I think, some other
things.
This is where Harry learnsabout the schoolhouses.
Hagrid says even Voldemort wasin Slytherin or something.
So further associating thathouse with the unnamed boy, with
(31:34):
evil and things like that welearn about.
Let's see, this is where Hagriddelivers that line.
There is not a single witch orwizard who went bad.
That wasn't in Slytherin.
So we're getting the lay of theland here and let's see.
So there's so much.
Harry doesn't know by thispoint that his internal conflict
is.
You can start feeling it on thepage when you read it.
He's getting really nervous.
(31:54):
But there's no crisis here andthe goal is the same.
They're still hunting forsupplies.
At the end they say we have onestop left and that's get your
wand.
So that's where we're headed.
Next we go to Ollivander's,where he delivers a line the
wizarding world can expect greatthings, which really cements
what Harry's been worried about.
He's like I feel weird aboutthis.
(32:15):
And now Ollivander's sayingyeah, the world will expect
great things from you, so he'seven more secure of this because
of this.
And then he faces the scenecrisis here.
So he doesn't have, or ittriggers the scene crisis.
There's no crisis in the momentwith Ollivander.
There's nothing he needs todecide to help him get his
(32:35):
supplies or go to school.
It's just kind of Ollivander'stalking at me I'm getting my
wand, and this is the sceneturning point because it
triggers the scene crisis.
So the scene crisis happenedafter it's, ollivander said this
out loud to me I've gotten myschool supplies.
Is it worth me committing tothis and going into the unknown,
even though it's clear I'm notreally ready for it?
(32:56):
So after this this, they leavediagram alley, going back the
way they came.
He expresses his concerns tohagrid.
The scene crisis and climax andresolution occur here.
So harry decides yes, I'm goingto move forward, I'm going to
tap into that courage and do theoriginal plan of going to
hogwarts.
So what's cool here is we cansay, okay, so all of this has
(33:17):
helped.
Like we said, show that thatVTF change, or that beneath the
surface, beyond the surfacechange, we're going from
unequipped to equipped, whichhelps survival.
We're also establishing thestarting point of his character
arc.
So he's gone from, he'sinsecure about his place in the
world and that he's going to bebattling with in addition to the
(33:38):
external conflict throughoutthe entire story.
Speaker 2 (33:41):
I think that you're doing a great job.
It's just that, looking at that, unequipped to equipped,
ignorance to knowledge, noticethat we pulled out the global
internal and the global externaland I think, ultimately, going
back to that way of, can youdefend, if the scene has purpose
, be able to argue why it doesboth right and so the way we
look at the scene, if we go backto let me find that slide where
(34:04):
we looked at the fivecommandments, if we go back to
it, it's kind of like we'regoing again.
Speaker 1 (34:09):
The objective is to get school supplies.
The internal objective forharry is he wants to figure out
what's going on in the world,how he fits in, and all this
stuff, all those individualmicro moments, help him achieve
the objective.
So he gets the school suppliesand they put pressure on that
wound which creates this verynice starting point for the
internal character arc, abigail.
(34:30):
Is it wrong if we've analyzedthis as each individual scene?
Talk to me about that.
Speaker 2 (34:36):
I don't think it's, because my answer to that is
when you ever say wrong or right, I'm always going to say no
because I don't when and we cometo anything with subjectivity,
there's no right or wrong.
It's about how can you bestdefend, how are you going to
make sense of writing your ownstories by analyzing other
stories, and how is that goingto help you see when a scene has
value or not right, ultimately,at Ultimately?
(34:58):
At that same time, I think thatas a book coach and Savannah
and I have talked about thisoutside of this interview as a
book coach, I might be lookingat this and if you were to give
me these scenes, I probablywould challenge you a bit and
I'd say can you have a clearercrisis in these so that we can
get it down more to the 2000word potato chip scene length,
(35:21):
and is there any value incondensing this and having value
changes and goals changedthroughout the scene?
Your answer to that might be noand I'm I'm going to be more
curious and ask you why andthere's no right or wrong to
that answer.
I just want to hear why youthink yes or no and why I think
(35:42):
yes or no, and we provide bothof our opinions on the table and
you make the best decisionbased on that conversation.
Right?
And this is Harry Potter and theSorcerer's Stone.
This is, I believe the sceneworks.
I believe the story isbeautiful.
It is one of my favoritestories of all time.
I think it's foolish to arguethat the story does not done its
(36:03):
job on working as a story.
Right, it's obviously aphenomenon.
At the same time, it is thefirst book that JK Rowling wrote
, so I just want to emphasizethat through our analysis, I
think, analyzing particularlythe banished on Harry Potter and
Sorcerer's Stone, I'm thewriter of Harry Potter and the
Chamber of Secrets.
For the analysis of that one, Ifound one and two much more
(36:28):
difficult to analyze oncondensing into scenes than
seven, which is another one thatI'm doing, and looking at four,
five, six and the ban is lookedat three more than I have with
Prisoner of Azkaban.
So I think it's just.
I think naturally, writersbecome stronger as writers the
more books that you write, andRowling is a masterful writer
(36:51):
from book one.
At that same time, I'm surethat when you look at something
like five, six, seven, thestrength of the writing at least
even just like the implicitknowledge of understanding pace
and things like that probablyfeels a bit stronger and at
least like for me, I felt likeit was a bit stronger.
(37:11):
The further that you get whichmakes total sense, right the
more time that you spend writing, the more natural this pace is,
shifting scenes and changingthem and be more definitive of
the goals, in a way.
Here's like the trick is likein a way that we're not
glaringly putting it in the faceof the reader, it's just
existing, because it's magicallyexisting and we're moving with
(37:32):
it on an entertainment andemotional level.
Right, and you're just going toget better with that.
So, when I'm looking at HarryPotter and the Sorcerer's Stone,
does the scene work?
Yes, I think it does.
Is there maybe if I were tolook at this and get really
nitpicky and I could say arethere opportunities where we
might have been able to tightencertain areas?
(37:52):
Possibly?
I don't know, that doesn'texist, right, that version
doesn't exist.
I do think that you can look atfilms and you're looking at, oh,
like, why would the film makecertain choices on certain
scenes?
And film scenes tend to be alot tighter for a lot of the
reasons that I said earlierabout how, when you have a film,
you don't have to do all thethings that a book has to do.
The iceberg theory, where thefilm is above the surface and
(38:14):
the books below the surface, isreal because a book has a lot
more job, has a lot more rolesin helping the reader visualize
and experience the scene and thestory than the film, because
the film has other players whoare working, just the text,
right.
Yeah, so I think likeultimately to that answer.
My long-winded answer to yourquestion is just that when
(38:37):
you're looking at this yeah,like there's a always a place
where maybe you can say we couldhave done things differently
can you still get to theargument and be able to defend
does this thing work and why itworks?
And the answer to that is yes,then you've done your job right.
Speaker 1 (38:50):
And if you think we sound like a broken record.
It's because we see this holdpeople up so much that we want
to be a broken record.
There's not really a wronganswer.
We're all going to look atthings differently based on our
own experience, and even Abigailand I people ask us all the
time do you guys agree oneverything?
Or like, how does that work?
We disagree on things a lot andwhat we're trying to see is, at
the very end result do weunderstand the same takeaway
(39:13):
from what we're doing?
And in most cases we do.
It doesn't matter what valueshift she calls out or if I call
it ignorance, knowledge, andshe says audit insecurity.
We're getting to the same place.
So it's really cool.
But one thing I want to saybefore we wrap up.
I get this question.
A lot is like writers I'm justpulling this example up on
screen.
We want to write a scene wherethere's like a lot of these
little kind of stops on our wayto accomplish the scene
(39:35):
objective.
You might start writing a bookwhere maybe we have six scenes
quote-unquote, of a scene likeDiagon Alley where we're going
to these stops and and what?
We broke this into individualscenes at one point too, and we
started seeing that the goalhasn't changed.
So, yes, he's getting an owl inthe scene, yes, he's getting a
wand in the scene, but overallwe're getting school supplies,
(40:03):
and you might see that in yourstory too.
So you might start out writingsix of these with the same
crisis and the same goal and thesame type of value shift, and
you might say, oh, these areprogressive complications within
a scene instead of being onescene each.
So that's how we landed here.
Is we started realizing, oh,they're progressing his
insecurity and also they'restepping stones on his way to
(40:23):
getting his supplies and closingout that scene objective?
So that's how we got here.
And again, that's not a firstdraft thing.
So if you write six scenes thatare like this, it's not wrong.
You just might find in editingthat they're not actually six
scenes.
We don't need to spend sixscenes in Diagon Alley or
somewhere like it.
They're more just likeprogressive complications within
a scene.
(40:44):
So I just wanted to bring thatup because writers are very
concerned about the micro momentin a first draft and I think we
need to be easier on ourselves.
Speaker 2 (40:53):
Yes, yeah, and I could go over that just to
support that, because I see thatall the time you like, when
you're writing a plan for a book, you're only looking at that
big plot level, that story eventsynthesis.
Ultimately, there are going tobe details in the scene itself
and I think that when you lookat the Diagon Alley scene yes,
(41:15):
to emphasize the world buildingand the character moments, again
, the details that rollingspends time on have purpose.
There's a reason why professorcoral gets a lot more name and
attention during the leakcauldron scene and why actually
harry names professor pearlagain along with olivander at
(41:35):
the end, because she, hey, thisone's going to be more important
than others, right?
So there are little clues likethat.
So when you're an author andyou're making choices in
description and what you keep asdetails, just make sure that
they have value.
Most of Diagon Alley isequipping again the end with
equipped unequipped to equipped.
Right.
We're equipping Harry withtools.
(41:58):
We're going to get Hedwig.
We don't spend a ton of detailand time on Hedwig.
We know it's a snowy owl, butit's important that we get
Hedwig right, right, and I thinkthat it's just like when you're
spending time on the Ollivanderscene, like part of the scene.
We spend a lot of time in thereand there's a reason for that
(42:19):
and the reason for that evenspeaks to a greater level than
just this book.
So I think it's just importantthat when you're making choices
with description just always belooking like final edits, right
mind level edits what did youchoose to keep and why and how
is there value in that?
But when you're starting out inthese earlier drafts, we're
thinking goals, right goals andinternal stakes being raised,
(42:44):
and how are you beating the goaland how is that moving the
external stakes and challengingexternal stakes, and how are the
internal stakes beingchallenged within those external
confinements?
Speaker 1 (42:55):
yeah, and a little behind the scenes of our own
process, is we at one point welooked at each other and we were
like how would we tell a writerto write this kind of scene?
And we looked at each other insilence like I don't know.
And so that's what started thisconversation of what would we
do if we were coaching JKRowling which could you imagine?
But we were coaching her andshe wanted to write the scene
(43:17):
and we might Abigail and Iagreed like we might just say,
write it as five or six scenesand then we'll see what happens.
So sometimes you do need tojust get it on the page and we
would probably coach writers asif these were scenes.
But then in the editing wewould condense them and say,
really, what we're doing here iswe're complicating that
internal arc of the scene andmake decisions based on that.
(43:39):
So is this the answer for everyscene?
No, you might have.
For example, if let's pretendwe deleted everything but
Gringotts and Ollivanders, if wejust had those two scenes.
And we do have a lot ofconflict in each scene, but we
don't have crisis moments really.
So if we were coaching a writerthrough those two moments and
(44:00):
they were two separate scenes,we would say can we build out
the crisis moments, like, how dowe make these different so that
they read as somethingenjoyable and engaging instead
of just more of the same?
So we're not saying this is theanswer for every scene.
We don't want you to combineeverything into one big scene
every time you're faced withthis, but just some things to
think about which I think arehelpful.
Speaker 2 (44:19):
So Madame Mouth's scene with Draco.
How is that scene differentthan the scene later?
Right?
When he has to make the choicelike how is it a bigger crisis
than it was before?
And maybe that's why there'snot really a crisis that we see
in that moment before becausewould it be redundant, would it
feel redundant?
Speaker 1 (44:38):
And we had the same thing later.
Right, it's exactly what yousaid, too is there is no need
for immediate consequences inDiagon Alley, because that's not
what that moment is about.
There's so many levers andthings that you're going to need
to pull and reevaluate your ownstory.
So we hope that by showing youthis breakdown and talking
through how we look at it, itmakes it less scary and less
(44:58):
overwhelming to know that, likeyou, don't have to get this on
your first draft.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (45:03):
And you're not going to get out in your first draft.
You're going to be lucky if youdo Just accept that you don't
have to right.
Speaker 1 (45:07):
Yeah, and we don't.
We wouldn't want you or coachyou to to plan to this detail
either.
If you think this feelsoverwhelming and I can't do this
, you're not alone.
We wouldn't expect you to do iteither.
So just remember, this is whyrevisions are so important, and
you can only do so much on yourfirst draft.
So just a caveat to throw outthere, because, honestly, we've
(45:28):
been there too.
Studying this book makes us wewant to write books like this
too.
It's overwhelming, buthopefully easier once you see
our breakdown and see how allthe moving parts work together
easier.
Once you see our breakdown andsee how all the moving parts
work together, it can becomeless overwhelming and more fun
because you have the tools toplay with.
Okay, so I hope you enjoyed thatdeep dive into chapter five of
Harry Potter and the Sorcerer'sStone and if you liked this
(45:50):
episode, you will absolutelylove my new book, the Story Grid
Masterwork Analysis Guide toHarry Potter and the Sorcerer's
Stone, because we break down theentire story on a
scene-by-scene basis and so muchmore.
I'm so proud of this book and Ihope you will check it out.
At the time of this recording,I'm offering a handful of
bonuses with proof of purchase.
So, yes, for the price of onebook, you will get so much more
(46:14):
than just a book, and if youwant to see what I'm talking
about, you can go tosavannagilbocom forward slash
masterwork to get all the juicydetails.
So that's it for today'sepisode.
As always, thank you so much fortuning in and for showing your
support.
If you want to check out any ofthe links I mentioned in this
episode, you can find them inthe show notes listed in the
(46:36):
description of each episodeinside your podcast player or at
savannahgilbocom forward slashpodcast.
If you're an Apple user, I'dreally appreciate it if you took
a few seconds to leave a ratingand a review.
Your ratings and reviews tellApple that this is a podcast
that's worth listening to, and,in turn, your reviews will help
this podcast get in front ofmore fiction writers just like
(46:57):
you.
And while you're there, goahead and hit that follow button
, because there's going to beanother brand new episode next
week, full of actionable tips,tools and strategies to help you
become a better writer.
So I'll see you next week anduntil then, happy writing.
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