January 28, 2025 • 62 mins
Romance, historical fiction & fantasy writers—tune in to learn how the opening pages of Outlander hook readers into the story.
In this listener-voted episode, I team up with developmental editor and book coach Abigail K. Perry to analyze the opening chapter of Diana Gabaldon's genre-defying masterpiece, Outlander, on a macro and micro level.
And truth be told, this might be one of our most challenging chapter analyses yet, but you'll learn exactly what makes these opening pages super engaging so you can apply it to your own writing.
Here’s what we cover:
[07:13] An Outlander chapter summary that reveals how Gabaldon masterfully sets up relationship tension and an interesting open loop that becomes hugely important later.
[13:05] A chapter one macro analysis using the seven questions from Paula Munier’s book, The Writer’s Guide To Beginnings, to break down what makes this opening so spot-on (from genre to character to stakes).
[39:50] How Gabaldon built Outlander's plot around three major story peaks to keep readers glued to the page. (I found this gem on her website and had to share it with you.)
[43:01] A microanalysis of the two scenes within the first chapter using the "5 Commandments of Storytelling" from Shawn Coyn's book, The Story Grid—to learn how to make your quiet moments as compelling as the action-packed ones.
[56:33] A discussion on how to write tricky relationship moments and emotional turning points in a way that feels natural and not forced.
Whether you're writing historical fantasy, time travel romance, historical romance, or any genre-bending story, you'll get a fantastic overview of how Diana Gabaldon crafted an opening chapter that launched a global phenomenon (so you can do the same for your own novel).
Tune in now.
🔗 Links mentioned in this episode:
- Check out the LitMatch Podcast with Abigail Perry here! You can also get in touch with Abigail through her website or on Instagram @abigailkperry.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Sometimes writers will ask me, especially if
they're writing a paranormal orfantasy or sci-fi and the
character starts in the normalworld.
So in the normal world theremight not be elements of that.
You know, magic or whatever,and it's like that's fine
because you're right.
In a normal world if we don'thave magic, it makes sense.
But how do we still signal tothe reader don't be surprised if
(00:20):
in chapter four there's amagician.
Or don't be surprised ifthere's faster than light travel
, you know.
So we do need to have thoseflavors, even as subtle as they
are, in this opening chapter toset up the correct reader
expectations.
Welcome to the Fiction WritingMade Easy podcast.
My name is Savannah Gilbo andI'm here to help you write a
(00:40):
story that works.
I want to prove to you thatwriting a novel doesn't have to
be overwhelming.
So each week I'll bring you abrand new episode with simple,
actionable and step-by-stepstrategies that you can
implement in your writing rightaway.
So whether you're brand new towriting or more of a seasoned
author looking to improve yourcraft, this podcast is for you.
So pick up a pen and let's getstarted.
(01:04):
In today's episode, abigail KPerry and I are diving deep into
the first chapter of Outlanderby Diana Galbadon, and I'm so
excited to dig into the openingpages of this book with you, not
only because I love theOutlander series, but also
because it's the book that you,my lovely listeners, voted on
when I pulled you in mynewsletter last month.
(01:25):
So I'm very excited for thisone, and I hope you are as well.
Something else that's going tobe fun about this episode is
that I've read the book and I'vewatched the TV show, but
Abigail has neither read thebook nor has she watched the
show, so she's coming out thisanalysis with more of a blank
slate, and I always think it'sfun to see if we agree on our
(01:46):
analysis, when one of us knowsthe book and the other doesn't.
And or if we don't agree, whatexactly is it that we see
differently based on having reador not having read the book?
So I think it's going to bereally fun to see what happens.
And in case this is your firsttime hearing one of these first
chapter analysis episodes, I dohave a co-host today.
(02:07):
Her name is Abigail K Perry andshe is a developmental editor
and the host of an amazingpodcast called Lit Match.
On her podcast, she helpswriters find the best literary
agent for their writing andpublishing careers.
I will link to where you canfind Abigail around the internet
, as well as her podcast in theshow notes.
But essentially what we're goingto do is we're going to dive
(02:28):
into the first chapter ofOutlander to see how and why it
works.
So we want to identify thingslike how many scenes there are
in this first chapter and ifthere are multiple scenes, then
what does the structure of eachscene look like?
We also want to identify howthe author set up the rest of
the book in the opening pagesand what makes the opening
(02:49):
chapter engaging.
So how and why did it hook usreaders, or did it fail to hook
us as readers?
And either way, what can we allcollectively learn to make our
own writing better?
So that's what we're doingtoday and, without further ado,
let's dive right into ourconversation about the opening
chapter of Outlander by DianaGalbadon.
Speaker 2 (03:11):
Hey, savannah, I'm so happy to be back at this that
we haven't recorded in a whileand we are going to continue our
fun, fun collaboration wherewe're reading first chapters,
we're analyzing first chaptersand, while we do go through our
picks, I either know the storywell and you don't, or vice
versa, and today we're in theboat of.
(03:32):
You have read this one, I havenot read this one.
I think a lot of people whoknow me would be surprised that
I haven't read this one, butit's going to be for a great
conversation either way, sohappy to have you.
Speaker 1 (03:42):
I am surprised you haven't read this one and
spoiler we're doing Outlander ifyou didn't read the title of
this episode.
So we are going to analyze thefirst chapter of Outlander, and
what's fun about this is we tooka poll back in November and we
had four options on the poll andOutlander won by a landslide.
So we are doing the listenervoted book, which is really fun
(04:04):
and exciting as well.
Speaker 2 (04:08):
And if you're just excited about this episode, I'd
love to hear more about why thisone for you, this first chapter
is not an easy one to analyze,so we're going to have some fun
analyzing it.
We did come to a consensus lastnight in preparation for this
episode on how many scenes wethink are in it, so I think we
pretty quickly landed in asimilar boat for what those
(04:31):
scenes were.
But I think there's a lot todiscuss in general with the
first chapter questions.
So Savannah is going to have asummary of what this first
chapter is.
If you haven't read it, feelfree to hit pause and go read it
and come back, or feel free tolisten and then go read it
afterwards.
Regardless, I encourage, likeall first chapter episodes, for
you to actually read the text orlisten to the text at some
(04:52):
point, to understand thebreakdown and to obviously grow
your craft because of that.
These are fun episodes to helpus how to read with a purpose
and to become better at ourcraft by understanding great
storytelling.
So go ahead, savannah, take itaway.
Summary for first chapter ofOutlander.
Speaker 1 (05:08):
Yep, and real quick before I do that.
So you said you want to hearfrom people about why you wanted
this and we were talking aboutthis.
We're like is it because it'sromance, is it because it is a
historical romance, or is itbecause it looks really hard and
you guys wanted to challenge us?
So we want to know maybe it's amixture of all those things Is
it our most challenging today,or at least one of them for sure
(05:28):
?
Speaker 2 (05:28):
It has a lot going on in it.
So I actually think that, beingable to confidently say I think
it's this many scenes I came toquicker than some of the other
ones that we've analyzed, but asa whole, I will say I had to
listen to it and read itmultiple times because I have
not read the whole book and Iwas like there are a lot of
(05:50):
details and I'm trying to figureout what this is.
So if I had not had you,savannah, to chat about with it,
I would say this is probablythe most difficult chapter I've
tried to analyze, but I had youto chat about with it, so it
helps to get there quicker.
Speaker 1 (06:03):
We had to chat to prepare for this.
It was really fun.
So, anyway, let me dive intothe summary.
So this, like Abigail said,it's a long first chapter.
A lot's going on.
So, essentially, claire she'sour main character Claire and
her husband of eight years hisname is Frank.
They're on vacation inInverness in Scotland and
they're on a second honeymoonthat they hope and think are
(06:25):
going to allow them to bereconnected, rekindle that
romance after being separated.
For I think it was seven yearsduring World War II.
So Claire in the war was anurse and Frank he was in
officer's training and he didsomething with M16.
I don't know if we ever figureout exactly what that is with
(06:45):
M16.
I don't know if we ever figureout exactly what that is, but
that's what he did.
He's a historian, he's aprofessor who has recently
accepted a permanent position atOxford University, so there's a
little bit of that influencingtheir trip to Inverness as well.
Frank is deeply interested inScottish history, which is very
apparent in this first chapter.
So while they're in Invernesshe's also going to be
(07:06):
researching one of his ancestors, whose name is Jack Randall.
So what happens in this chapteris that one day Claire's out
going on her way to meet Frankand she's looking at a vase in a
window.
She's thinking about how Oxfordwill be their first real home
and how they're hoping to have ababy and things like that.
Then she meets up with Frankand they are on their way back
(07:30):
to the place they're staying andthey see bloodstains on the
doorsteps of several local homesand they're just like what the
heck is going on.
So it's jarring a little bit atfirst, but then Frank's like I
know what's going on.
That blood is part of an oldsuperstitious house cleansing
ritual in the Scottish Highlands.
So it's not like anyonecommitted murder or anything,
although they do kill chickens.
So I guess they do commitmurder, but not a murder of a
(07:53):
human.
So then later that eveningFrank meets a local historian
and they talk through somethings.
While Claire stays at the bedand breakfast A storm picks up
outside and when Frank returnsback to the place they're
staying, he thinks he saw aghost.
So he says it's a strapping mandressed in a customary Scottish
kilt and he thinks that man waslooking at Claire through the
(08:14):
window.
He says, even though the windwas blowing, the man's clothes
did not move, which is why hethinks it was a ghost.
Then they're, you know, layingin bed.
Frank quietly speculates thatyou know, had that man been a
former lover of yours that youmet in the army?
And Claire becomes reallyoffended, saying that you know,
I would never do such a thing toyou.
(08:35):
And then only after theargument ends does Claire wonder
if maybe Frank was opening thedoor to a conversation, that
maybe he had his own affair orsomething while they were
separated by the war, and thenthey go to sleep.
So quite a bit of stuff, andthat's not even the iceberg of
the stuff that happens.
Speaker 2 (08:55):
Yeah, and just based on the length of that summary
and we know how concise Savannahis, you can tell that there are
a lot of details going on, andwe mentioned this is historical,
so that's part of the reasonfor this, and I think, coming
from this from a perspective ofI have not read the whole story,
(09:16):
I think that's where I keptasking Savannah for reassurance,
like I'm assuming all thesedetails come into play right,
we're doing more than justgrounding us in the world, and
you can kind of assume that,like if it's being this
phenomenon that this story is, Ican pretty confidently assume
that these details were wellplaced.
So then it's just a matter ofhow does that work in the story
(09:39):
as a whole and preparing us tounderstand what this is going to
be from a reader's perspective.
And that's how we address thatwith the first chapter questions
.
Speaker 1 (09:47):
So why don't we go ahead and yeah, let me interrupt
you there a second because thisso I did the word count and
we're at about 7,500 words forthis first chapter, which is
quite a bit.
I don't know how that comparesto the rest of the chapters, but
that's just something to helpkeep in mind.
We're also you know we said thesummary is long.
There's a lot of detail, a lotof context, depending on what
(10:09):
you're used to reading.
I think what was interestingfor us is that we're not used to
necessarily reading historicalall the time.
So, like Abigail said, is it alot of detail or is this
something that's very specificto the genre?
We don't know for sure, but itwas an interesting experience to
feel that and then question itand say does it matter, is it
(10:30):
impactful?
And you know we'll get intothat more later.
Speaker 2 (10:33):
I really like reading historical.
Kristen Hanna is arguably myfavorite commercial author.
I'd say you know I was going tosay my author and she's.
She's up there like I.
I love kristen hannah, but whatI actually love about her are
her later books, which have beenall historical and you can tell
she does the research.
So when I'm reading somethinglike that with her with her
(10:56):
first chapters, it was justinteresting to see like I'd have
to go back and now compare likeis, but so I don't.
I wouldn't say that I readhistorical all the time, but I
do love chris and hannis.
Now I'm like in that boat oflike what is this for the genre?
yeah but I wonder what the?
Do you know what the word countfor outlander is as a whole?
Because this book is long as awhole.
(11:17):
So when you look at 7500 wordsfor the opening in comparison to
the book as a whole, is itpretty relative to what a normal
scene length would be for or anormal first chapter would be
for like a 90,000 word novel.
Speaker 1 (11:32):
So I just Googled it.
I don't know how accurate thisis, but I Googled it.
Google says it's 305,000 words.
Speaker 2 (11:41):
I would assume that based on the audio length is 33
hours.
Yes, I would assume that's onthe audio length is 33 hours.
Speaker 1 (11:46):
Yes, I would assume that's correct, but again don't
know for sure.
Speaker 2 (11:48):
Yeah, think about that too like, obviously, if you
are writing your debuthistorical fiction novel, you're
probably not going to write 300plus.
Speaker 1 (11:57):
Yeah, we're in plus words, right, but there's some
interesting stuff that I didn'tshare with you yesterday, that I
found on the internet, thatwe'll talk about later, that
we'll go back to thisconversation.
So let's go into the uh, bigpicture questions and you can
you can take over that okay.
Speaker 2 (12:13):
so we're gonna look at the key first chapter
questions.
Remember that these come youhaven't listened to an episode
before.
We pulled these from paul andeunee, the Writer's Guide to
Beginnings.
I really encourage you to readthat book.
It's a great resource by aliterary agent and an author on
what to look for in a firstchapter in order to understand
what the story is going to beabout and if it's going to be
(12:35):
setting us up for a prettysuccessful story, keeping in
mind that you can write the bestfirst chapter in the world, but
if you don't maintain thequality of that storytelling for
the rest of the story, then itwill fall off.
So we're always looking atthese examples of first chapters
and hopefully carrying what youset up as expectations for the
reader into the novel itself.
You got to pay off those setups, right.
(12:55):
So the first question of this welike to kind of categorize and
what are the big elements offiction we're looking at as well
?
And the first one is genre.
And the question is what kindof story is it?
Remembering that when we'retalking about genre, there are
two types of genres Savannah andI like to talk about Content
genre and commercial genre,commercial genre where are you
going to market the story?
If you go in a bookstore, whereare we going to fall?
(13:17):
And that's how you're going tosell the book and content genre.
What type of story is it?
So?
What can we expect for commonconventions, the bookatory
scenes and things like that?
Speaker 1 (13:26):
Yeah.
So if we kind of merge whatAmazon has this listed under,
we're looking at a historicaltime travel fantasy romance
which all of that, no matter howyou parse it.
If you say historical romance,historical fantasy, historical
time travel, time travel romance, it all gets you to the same
place.
So we're in that realm.
Commercially and content wise Iwould say we're in the romance
(13:48):
territory.
I haven't studied this bookenough to know if the internal
genre is worldview or if it'smaybe a little morality.
Because there is this centralquestion of is it okay to love
two men equally?
Am I cheating on my spouse?
If I've gone back in time andfallen in love, I know that
usually characters in moralitystories are not great people at
(14:11):
the beginning of the story.
So that makes me lean a littlebit more towards worldview.
But again, I haven't studied itso in depth where I could say
for sure.
Speaker 2 (14:21):
Yeah.
So, coming from this, nothaving read this novel and
probably being influenced byunderstanding what the
commercial genre is, I wouldargue that it's also going to be
love as a content genre.
When you read this firstchapter, those stakes are not
obvious, but the romance is whatwe're focused on.
I would say, like therelationship.
If anything, it doesn't feelnecessarily like this is a
(14:44):
courting type of romance, right,because she's married to Frank,
so Claire's married to Frankalready.
I know we're going to get intoit.
Sorry if it's a spoiler, butJamie is going to be the other
love interest and he is theghost-like character at the end
of the chapter.
So you're going to be dealingwith a big love triangle and I
think that ultimately you'reintroducing all three characters
(15:07):
in this opening, so we can seethat this is where dynamic is
going to be interesting.
For you to say worldview ormorality, I would not have
guessed morality, and all basedon not knowing the story yeah
and I don't think that I couldconfidently actually even argue
what the internal arc is until Iread the full story.
(15:27):
My gut would immediately go toworldview because I actually
feel and historical, I think ingeneral you get this feeling
that it almost feels like it'sgoing to be internally driven as
the dominant genre when you'rereading especially openings like
this because there's so muchlayering with backstory.
So it's like, okay, we'respending a lot of time really
(15:48):
getting to know her characterand where she's at and like what
she's dealing with.
But ultimately, when I lookedat both scenes now I try to say
what are we really dealing withwith a goal and what is it?
A shift and change in each ofthese it deals with frank and
Claire and their relationship,even if it feels like we're just
kind of like walking throughthe motions, the loudest one
being the question of infidelityat the end of chapter one,
(16:11):
which is why I would land onlove.
Speaker 1 (16:13):
Yeah, and so I could totally argue worldview as well,
because I think you can kind oftranslate the other internal
genres into worldview easy.
So like we could say somethinglike her worldview when she
lands back in time in a futurechapter is I need to get back, I
love my husband, that's theright thing to do, I belong
there.
And then her worldview changesas she's in this relationship
(16:34):
with Jamie and back in time.
But there you know, there isthat flavor of is it okay to be
doing what I'm doing?
I feel like a bad person andthere's and Claire's not the
most religious person, butreligious stuff comes into it,
especially back in history.
So I don't know without furtheranalysis, but I think we're
confident saying it's romance.
(16:55):
There's either a worldview,internal arc or a morality, and
then there's also an actionpiece to this which sounds
strange.
But when we get back in timethere are life and death stakes.
They're in the middle of a war,so that makes sense.
In this first chapter do we geta glimpse of that Kind of Not
really stakes-wise but more inthe?
(17:15):
There's blood on the doorsteps,chickens are being sacrificed,
there's possibly a ghost outside, whether we believe that or not
.
So we get little flavors sayingthat there's something in that
realm, something in a paranormalrealm, something in a fantasy
realm too.
So the flavors are all there.
Speaker 2 (17:32):
It's just let's see where we go from there.
Yeah, and it's interesting, wecan talk about this when we get
to the scene structure more butthe blood, the romance, notice
that those are all very externalthings.
Right, this first chapter isdominantly internal, I would say
like it's dominantly internal,but those moments are very loud
(17:53):
and grab your attention quicklybecause they're they're
happening outside of us, right,and that tends to be something
that can just be like oh, I'mnow paying attention to that.
So even if I, like I would saythat there, I would argue there
aren't really like death stingson the page in this opening
chapter.
But exactly what you said,there are hints of it.
It's like we still get thatsense of something's going on
(18:14):
here.
What's it going to lead to that?
Speaker 1 (18:17):
pull us in into that and the reason that's important,
because sometimes writers willask me, especially if they're
writing a paranormal or fantasyor sci-fi and the character
starts in the normal world.
So in the normal world theremight not be elements of that.
You know magic or whatever, andit's like that's fine because
you're right.
In a normal world if we don'thave magic, it makes sense.
(18:37):
But how do we still signal tothe reader don't be surprised if
in chapter four there's amagician.
Or don't be surprised ifthere's faster than light travel
.
You know.
So we do need to have thoseflavors, even as subtle as they
are, in this opening chapter toset up the correct reader
expectations.
Speaker 2 (18:54):
And we can talk about this in the next question that
deals with plot.
But also to build off of that,we talk so much, and you said
part of this is because Frank issuch a history buff, right.
We talk so much, and you saidpart of this is because Frank is
such a history buff, right.
So he really nerds out when itgets into details of history,
which grounds his character butalso gives us context, because
there's a lot of discussionabout myths.
Yes, why?
The Scotch Highlands inparticular have a lot of these
(19:16):
superstitions and dealings withmyths.
Nothing is in your facehappening on the page that is
threatening Claire's life orFrank's life.
Because the superstitions Ithink that we believe in the
ghost aspect of Jamie at the endmore because we had the whole
discussion about myths and wesaw the blood stuff.
(19:36):
So that can kind of we'll leadinto the plot question, because
it might build off of that.
But the second question, just aplot, and the question is what
is the story about?
What is it really about?
Or what is that big picture?
If we were looking at a bigpicture.
Developmental level what?
Speaker 1 (19:52):
is the story about.
Yeah, and I'm very interested tosee your take on this, not
knowing the rest of the story,but for me it's you read because
you want to find out who's shegoing to choose Frank or Jamie
once she goes back in time, andwhere is she going to end up.
We also, in this first chapter,get little hints.
I guess that more speak to thenext question of character.
But we know she wants to have achild, things like that.
(20:13):
So these are the type ofquestions we have which again,
go more towards thatrelationship angle, that love
angle, more so than any of theother genres we mentioned.
Speaker 2 (20:22):
Yes, and so knowing what the story is about,
obviously I've heard ofOutlander, I just haven't read
it.
Speaker 1 (20:28):
Or seen the show right.
Speaker 2 (20:36):
I have not seen the show either, so I think that
that is immediately what I wouldassume the question would be,
because I knew ahead of timethat there was going to be this
time traveling back in time.
There's going to be this manthat she falls in love with.
I don't actually know if I knew, though, about the husband
until I read the first chapter,so as soon as I put those pieces
together, I could assume that'sgoing to be the question.
Looking at the first chapterfrom Blind's Eye, like just
coming into this cold, myattention really goes to the
(20:58):
question, not so much as a lovetriangle, but more so of the
marriage itself, right, and itwould be more about a marital
question, mainly again pullingme into that, her immediate
anger.
She's quick to anger when heasks her about infidelity.
How could you assume that Iwould like, how could you ask
(21:19):
that question?
She gets really upset about it,right, and it's not until the
very last line or two that sherealizes maybe he had an affair,
right?
So my thought, just coming incold from this first chapter,
would be this is going to beabout can this marriage survive,
which it kind of is.
Can?
Speaker 1 (21:37):
this marriage survive , which it kind of is?
Speaker 2 (21:38):
yeah right, which it kind of is, but then of course
the depth of that is going to bepulled in with the, with the
love triangle which you need, alove triangle in any romance
look how cool the one is herebecause, like you said, in the
first chapter we see the ghostwhich we find out later is
actually jamie's ghost.
Speaker 1 (21:55):
So you, you have a love triangle, but separated by
two timelines.
That's really cool.
Yeah, I also think her reactionto his question about was there
someone back in the war is agreat setup for what comes later
, because she has such avisceral reaction to no, I did
not cheat on you.
And then she falls in love witha man in a different timeline
and questions herself the wholeentire time Well, and that's
(22:16):
really hard too.
Speaker 2 (22:17):
I mean because I'm assuming Frank did have an
affair and that's going to comeout.
I can't remember actually, butregardless they had this
marriage already was up againstextreme hardship because the war
separated them for six years.
Frank says we saw each otherthree times.
One time for only a day in sixyears.
And now they're back togetherand the whole reason why they're
(22:39):
in the Scottish Highlands isbecause they thought it would be
a good place to revive theirmarriage.
So we know they're there to tryto do that, not because they've
hated each other, but justbecause it's been a long time.
And she is struggling to getpregnant and you can tell that
both of them want that, so thatadds hardship in a marriage.
Them want that, so that addshardship in a marriage.
(23:00):
So the stakes are high in theirown ways, even if we haven't
necessarily gotten to thequestion of who will she pick by
the end.
Speaker 1 (23:04):
Yeah, and which is really cool because think about
the two perspectives, like ifyou had written this book, our
listener, you and someone whohas cold to it is kind of
getting the gist, and someonewho has read it is also able to
say like this is what we'releading into.
That means it works right, we'vedone our job.
So the other thing I wanted totalk about in plot because this
(23:25):
could confuse people is there isa war when we land back in the
1800s and there is like dangerthat claire is consistently like
having to save jamie from, orvice versa, and it's so
interesting.
I love seeing books where theaction is more from or vice
versa, and it's so interesting.
I love seeing books where theaction is more of a subplot,
because it's hard to pull off,because how do you always make
the love stakes louder than theaction stakes?
(23:46):
Right?
But it's just really importantbecause or it's really impactful
because we have that lovefoundation set up.
So it's kind of like hergrowing love for him spurs her
to risk herself to rescue him ordo something you know within
that action plot, when you knowsometimes we could argue she
(24:07):
could literally just walk backto the stepping stones and try
to go home, no, so it's justreally interesting to see the
dynamic work.
Speaker 2 (24:15):
The third question is the point of view and who is
telling the story.
Speaker 1 (24:19):
Yep.
So we're in Claire's point ofview.
It's, I believe it's firstperson.
Yep, first person.
She's the only point of view.
Character Makes total sense.
Why the author chose this?
Because it's her story.
Right, it's her love story.
She loves Frank, she lovesJamie.
She's experiencing that likecognitive dissonance of going
back in time and struggling tofigure out her bearings and
(24:41):
things like that.
So I will say in the openingchapter there's like a little
flavor of omniscient.
Did you catch that in like thevery first sentence?
Yes, just common.
It's kind of like usuallytacked on, you know, and we kind
of, I think a historical,especially because we're doing a
lot of groundwork with historyitself.
Speaker 2 (24:58):
But Diane Gabaldon so she does a really great job at
weaving history, descriptions ofhistory that have relevance or
I assume we're going to haverelevance through context, and I
use the Giver of Stars by JojoMoyes a lot when I talk about
creating backstory as a beatwithin a scene and it has to
(25:19):
have its own commandments andyou have to have like a bigger
back.
It's like a bigger moment ofbackstory than just a line or
two of description.
And it's interesting when youtalk about the point of view.
Having that first person fromClaire allows us to go
experience a moment with herthat I think grounds characters,
grounds relationships andgrounds world in a moment that
she's explaining to us, like inparticular in this first chapter
(25:42):
, when they're talking about herexpletives, like her language
at that when they were havingtea, and you get to experience
that as a moment, which I thinkit's increasing the word count,
but it's far more interestingand there's a lot of character
groundwork done in how sheresponds to that and how she's
(26:03):
thinking about it.
And when we say a lot'shappening in this chapter is
because there are actually likea few.
I think there are a few momentslike that that happen within a
scene itself.
So using that first person, Ithink, is more advantageous when
you do something like that,because you can take us more
into a personal moment.
That does do that backstorywork in an effective
(26:25):
storytelling way baked within ascene Love stories as a whole.
I don't think it's uncommon tohave first person point of views
of all of the lovers in thestory and following Claire.
It makes sense.
Of course, you know I'm comingin from this cold, but if
Jamie's in one timeline andFrank's in another, it sounds
like you're probably going tospend a lot more time with one
(26:48):
over the other.
And if you were trying toinvolve everyone, is it just
going to be distracting usrather than pulling us into the
main story question, which iswho is she going to choose?
Speaker 1 (26:58):
yeah, so most of the story actually takes place in
the past, so we are only withfrank for a very short period of
time, which you wouldn't knowbecause you didn't read it.
But yeah, and that's exactlyright, is it's we get?
It would be crazy to have,because I've actually seen some
people try to do something likeexactly what you just said.
Where it's imagine we haveFrank's point of view in the
present and the reason is alwayswell, readers need to know
(27:21):
what's going on.
And then we have imagine Jamieand Claire's in the past, which
is now Claire's present.
It would just be so much goingon and it's kind of like do we
need to know what's going onwith Frank, or does it create a
better reading experience to beignorant of it like Claire?
Speaker 2 (27:40):
is and I think ignorance is the key word there,
right, Because I think that'sthe.
When people are choosingbetween do I have multi-POV or
single POV, I think the questionI'm always asking them is
what's the value of having morethan one, right?
So it's like what are theybringing?
That's different, and if youare writing a multi-POV, each
character has a point of view.
Best be having their owncharacter arc.
(28:00):
Now, great storytelling, maincharacters are all going to have
their own arc, but do they needit to the depth of structural
execution that the first personpoint of view is having?
I would say Jamie probably isgoing to need to have that
growth of change, but probablynot to of like Claire if she's
the one going through.
The main question Is that right?
Speaker 1 (28:20):
Well, and it's interesting because, Jamie, I
would totally say he has an arcof change, but he's also very
like what he's thinking is kindof what he says, but it's almost
like, imagine if you were tohave his point of view.
It probably wouldn't beadvantageous if most of his
external actions matchesinternal thoughts.
And this is just who hischaracter is.
And listeners feel free todisagree if you interpret it
(28:43):
different.
But yeah, I think it'sinteresting to think about why
she chose to do what she did andit's also interesting to think
about a 305,000 word novel forone point of view.
Speaker 2 (28:55):
No, when you were saying I'll also, he says
exactly what he means.
I don't know if you watched theOffice, but all I could see is
the scene with Kelly.
Daryl is the most confusing manI have ever met.
Speaker 1 (29:08):
Yeah, that's exactly what he says yeah, and then she
says the opposite too yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (29:15):
Okay, so that's point of view.
The fourth question deals withcharacter, and the character
question is which charactershould we care about the most?
Speaker 1 (29:22):
yeah.
So this one's funny because Iwas thinking about that this
morning.
Obviously we care about claire.
There's a lot that we root forher on in this first chapter.
Obviously we want therelationship to to work.
I even related to her androoted for her with her little
adventure of finding plants.
You know, like I want her tofind the plants she wants and so
I care about her.
But I realized I am equallyinvested in the relationship as
(29:46):
a character.
Like I felt it as big as I feltClaire, which is cool.
Speaker 2 (29:51):
I did not dislike Frank.
Speaker 1 (29:54):
Yeah, I didn't dislike Frank either.
Speaker 2 (29:56):
No, so that's where it's like I I, when you're going
through, and I'm thinking about, who do I really care about?
I guess this was one of the.
I enjoy both characters.
I guess, like my level is like,who do I care about the most?
Well, we're following claire,so we're going to care about
claire, right, but I didn'treally feel like these stakes.
They're like, it's not like the, like the actions and it's not
(30:18):
like the action stakes are rightthere where it's like they are
in danger.
I care about them in that way.
You care about them more in thesense of like, getting to know
them and growing a relationshipwith them and coming to care
about them as a human being,right, yeah, like, when I found
like the moments that stand outto me where I'm like, oh, like
Claire starting to become myfriend, that's how it felt to me
(30:40):
Like, out of all of them, itwas like, okay, like we could
sit down and have a tea in hercase and a cup of coffee in my
case and we would get to knoweach other and I would be
growing more affectionate and,you know, concerned for her
concerns and whatever they are,as she is internalizing
everything because of what she'sdoing and it's like, okay, what
do I care about?
Like you said, the relationshipFrom page one.
I think that's what you startto care about.
(31:02):
That care for the relationshipgrows as you get to know the
characters more with each page.
So, from the beginning, when youknow this marriage has suffered
six years of distance outsideof their own will thanks to war,
that immediately is going toput trauma on you regardless.
Right, right, I care about bothof them immediately, just
(31:23):
because of the unfortunatesituation that brought them to
where they are today and you'rerooting for them because, like
here they are, like they don'tdislike each other, they
obviously love each other and Ithink that that was such an
interesting thing to see as anopening with through characters,
because you're not opening with, like these characters at like
(31:45):
really at an emotional low andlike the marriage is struggling
and like this is what'shappening, like they genuinely
love each other and they're justtrying to resalvage time that
they've lost.
Until that very last questionof did he have an affair and how
he prefaces it with.
If you ever had an affair, Iwould still love you.
(32:07):
There's nothing that you coulddo that I don't love you.
That would make me not love you, and even in that I'm like, oh,
he's sweet and understanding.
But also, if you're saying thisto protect your own, now it
feels slightly manipulative.
So I think that that's justsomething that made me.
Going back to the characters,that made me think about.
Am I going to dislike him?
(32:29):
Am I going to start to like, belike is this going to be like a
team Jamie or a team Frankthing?
As we get more into the story,it actually doesn't sound.
It sounds like that's thedebate for her, yeah, but as a
reader, it feels like you'regoing to be spending time with
Jamie.
So are you really going to beeven like?
Speaker 1 (32:46):
is there, even like a team.
We are and it's funny, though,because I feel like we're so in
her point of view, although weall love Jamie it it her
concerns are valid.
Like she's married this man.
He's a great man.
There's nothing wrong with him.
Maybe he made some mistakes,maybe he didn't, I can't
remember, but that's you know.
It wouldn't work otherwise,right?
So if you're writing a storythat has a love triangle like
(33:09):
this, this is where love storyor love triangles break down, or
when they become cheesy, whenit's like obviously she's not
going to choose that guy.
He sucks, yes, right, or?
Speaker 2 (33:17):
when they become cheesy, when it's like obviously
she's not going to choose thatguy, he sucks, yes, right, and
then, well, I think this is so.
The example that I always thinkabout is Sweet Home, alabama.
I don't know if you know thatmovie.
So I love that movie and thatis a tough choice.
Because Dreamy McDreamerson,who is the the other guy, right
that she's going to marry in thebeginning, he's a good guy.
You don't want him to be hurt,right, like, if she ends up with
(33:41):
him it will be good, but herheart is just with Jake, right,
yeah, so, but like, even likehis response when she doesn't
sign the divorce papers at theaisle just shows, like, even
reinforces like that he's evensuch a good guy.
So I think actually, what wasreally important at the end of
that movie was in the credits.
They show that he gets, hefinds love and gets engaged with
(34:03):
someone else.
I actually think if they didn'tinclude that in the credits, it
would have been reallydifficult to swallow.
Yeah, because you don't wanthim to end up.
So I'd be interested, you knowand I'll finish outlander now
that I've started it I'll beinterested to see.
Do you ever feel like, arethere going to be any big
unresolved reasons why sheshouldn't pick Frank.
(34:24):
It feels like immediately fromthe beginning.
I'm like there has to besomething that's going to have
to tip the scale towards Jamie.
I'm assuming that's who shegoes with.
Speaker 1 (34:34):
Well yeah.
So if you don't want to hear aspoiler, mute the podcast now.
But essentially, there ismultiple times throughout the
story where it's like you choosewhat you want to do Claire, Do
you want to try to get home, Doyou want to stay here with me?
And at some point there becomesa decision that when she makes
it, she realizes because of this, Frank probably won't be born.
(34:56):
So there's no opportunity forwell assuming assuming she's
right.
That means there's noopportunity for us to get that
feeling at the end of like oh,at least he found a bride and
he's all happy, Right, it's likehe didn't, maybe doesn't even
exist anymore.
Speaker 2 (35:13):
But that's a bigger.
Speaker 1 (35:18):
I mean like, even like when she stays he doesn't
get to.
Well, there's a decision thatshe would have had to make that
if she made it, probably he'snot gonna.
Because she, because she knowsthe history, because she's been
with frank and he knows abouthis ancestor, jack randall, and
so she realizes, because of theway things are playing out in
the 1800s, I don't think thatwe're going to get to the point
where frank is born oh, that isheavy, because see I was getting
(35:39):
.
Speaker 2 (35:39):
I get full body if she stays in the past, then he
still has a chance at being born, but it's like, no, that's over
, that's, that's heavy which ina way like it.
Speaker 1 (35:51):
It sucks for frank right, but also it's kind of
like, okay, well, at least he'snot devastated and never getting
his bride back.
I don't know which is worse,but I don't know, that's yeah,
that's yeah that's a wholeconversation for another day.
Speaker 2 (36:04):
That's more I thought it was going to be like, he can
still get his chance atsurviving, at being at existing
yeah, that's interesting.
Speaker 1 (36:10):
Yeah, we'll see.
That's a conversation foranother day, that's another
question.
Speaker 2 (36:13):
Okay, so we'll move on to the fifth question, which
deals with setting and thequestions where and when does
the story take place?
Obviously before it beinghistorical.
Speaker 1 (36:21):
Yep, so in the past we're in the 18th century, we're
in Scotland.
In the present we're in the20th century in Scotland as well
.
So past I mean passed by, as inwe're with Jamie.
That becomes Claire's presenttimeline, which makes it
confusing Right 18th centurywith Jamie 20th century with
Frank.
Speaker 2 (36:39):
I think it's really good that you decipher that,
because when you're writing, thepast can become the present and
it should still be the present.
Now you just have changed wherewe're set right um time travel
when you do that.
That's important it's hard yeah, yeah, okay, and obviously I'm
assuming culture is going tocome more into the story.
Like you can even see, it justFrank's nerding out about
(37:00):
history right from the beginningand all the talk about myths
and the war aspects.
All of that's going to comeinto play in the story.
Speaker 1 (37:12):
the 20th century women are allowed to do more
things, like Claire was a nurseand she you know, whatever.
And then she goes back in timeand it's like I own my woman.
So she deals with all kinds ofdifferent issues, and then
there's a war, you know so.
Speaker 2 (37:26):
That's like a whole nother layer too, if she stays
there's way more layers, yeah,so it's really cool.
Speaker 1 (37:31):
The historical element really allows for that,
which is one of the fun parts ofthe story.
Speaker 2 (37:35):
Okay, and I think that's going to feed into the
last two questions dealing withcore emotion and stakes as well,
particularly the stakesquestion.
I'm going to group themtogether.
Speaker 1 (37:43):
Yeah, we talked about emotion already.
Speaker 2 (37:45):
Yeah, so emotion how should they feel about what's
happening?
Stakes why should we care aboutwhat happens next?
Or what are the stakes and whyshould we care about what
happens next?
Speaker 1 (37:54):
Yeah, so, emotion wise, it's kind of like we're
concerned.
We want to know what's going tohappen with Claire and Frank.
We hope that she gets what shewants and they rekindle their
relationship, blah, blah blah.
Curiosity wise, I'm thinking amI really curious about anything
in particular?
I'm more concerned than I amcurious, I think, which is fine.
And then why should we careabout what happens next?
Well, we know that.
(38:14):
Um again, we have the backcover copy as context, so we can
infer that at some point soonshe's going to be traveling back
in time.
So we have that to contend with.
And we also, frank, dropped abomb on us at the end of the
last chapter, the first chapter,that's why I'm turning the page
.
Yeah that bomb yeah so combineall that and you've got a
winning recipe specifically withthe slow burn of that bomb.
Speaker 2 (38:38):
Yeah, because it's like she like responds and then
she internalizes it.
Speaker 1 (38:42):
Yeah yeah, it's a good, good little bomb there,
but so okay.
So a lot of good things workingto tell us what kind of book
we're in for.
There's a lot to unpack thereand something.
This is the thing I saved totell you.
Today.
I found this article with theauthor and because I was looking
up, I'm like okay, becauseagain it's been a while since
I've read this.
So I was thinking about genreand I'm like what is the climax?
(39:05):
Because that usually helps medecide on genre.
And I found this article Ithink it's on her website and
she says my first book,outlander, is shaped like three
overlapping triangles.
The action rises naturallytoward three climaxes Claire's
decision at Craig Nodoon to stayin the past.
Claire's rescue of Jamie fromWentworth, which is a prison,
(39:26):
and her saving his soul at theAbbey.
So I thought that was reallycool to think about, how she
thought it's almost like how youtalk about the three levels of
stakes a lot, which is like wehave the life and death stakes
of saving him from Wentworthdeciding to stay in the past and
give up that future with Frank.
That's more of the love.
(39:46):
And then saving his soul islove and it's also like the more
.
It's more than that.
So.
Speaker 2 (39:52):
I love that and also I'm assuming there's probably
the main genre.
This would actually beinteresting to look at.
So sometimes when you haveequally weighted psychological,
professional and physical stakes, it feels like OK, this is
really more of a worldview story.
And then you have to have eachof your big external moments
need their climax right Now.
Subplots need their fullthree-act structure, or
(40:15):
beginning middle end, if youdon't want to say three acts, so
subplots also need to havetheir climax right.
So it's interesting to see ifyou were to analyze this, like
at the end of it, with each ofthose climactic moments.
Do they feel like they're asubplots climax or do they feel
like they're equally weightedclimaxes?
Speaker 1 (40:34):
and if they're equally weighted, climaxes is
worldview the content genre Idon't think worldview is,
because I think when you read itand someday you'll let us know
how you feel about this when youwatch?
it or read it, you do feel likeit's a love story.
I think when you're in the pastand there's war stuff,
obviously that's like a big uhhurdle that they have to get
over to have their love story.
(40:55):
So I would say my gut says no,I don't think they're evenly
weighted.
I think it's very significant,obviously, that she saves him
from danger and things like that, but it's at the end.
There's, you know, parts wherehe's uh again spoiler, you want
to mute me but there's parts atthe end where he's injured but
he's recovering and he's justlike I have so much trauma from
(41:15):
all that's happened to me overthe course of the story you
should just leave.
So he gives her options toleave and she stays.
But to me I see those likethose are the romance.
Speaker 2 (41:25):
You know she's choosing him yeah, that yeah,
and it seems like it would go inthat I would say that you're
probably onto it.
Based on just how you'vedescribed things, I think there
would be a hierarchy ofimportance in these moments and
that, regardless, they're alldovetailing.
So with each one, they're alldovetailing into the love story,
which, again, is the mark of agreat story.
You need subplots to dovetailinto the main story.
You need a subplot to dovetailinto the main story.
Speaker 1 (41:47):
But I thought you would love hearing that, because
who doesn't love a behind thescenes of a process?
And I could just envision thosethree triangles and like the
ups and the downs and he has tobe okay at this scenario to get
into this scenario, and thenthey have to fall in love and
whatever.
So it was really cool yeah.
Speaker 2 (42:02):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (42:02):
So we're going to get into the scene structure part,
which is probably whateveryone's been waiting for,
because it is kind ofchallenging so I'm.
I'm gonna give us the lay of theland really quick, uh, and then
we can talk about the details.
So abigail and I landed on.
There's two scenes and thefirst part goes from the very.
The first scene goes from thevery first sentence to this line
(42:24):
that I'm going to find, I think, where she says the curse word.
She says Jesus H, roosevelt,christ, I said, and drop the
sugar, lump neatly into Frank'scoffee.
So we think that's where thefirst scene ends.
I did not, uh, parse out theword count, but it feels like a
larger part of the chapter muchlarger and there's a reason for
that.
So if we go back and if you'reflipping through the book, if we
(42:46):
go back through to thebeginning of the chapter,
there's a part where, in thevery beginning, claire's like
walking downstairs.
She says I met Miss Baird inthe hall on my way out.
So we're in the present.
And then there's a part whereshortly after that, so it's
within like the first fourparagraphs, she shifts into
(43:07):
backstory or like a kind of aflashback.
So it's of that morning whenthey were in bed and Mrs Baird
was vacuuming outside becauseshe doesn't want to like hear
bed spring squeak and thingslike that.
And then there's a whole lotthat unfolds about basically how
we got to this point of Claireon her way out of the bed and
breakfast to go meet Frank,claire on her way out of the bed
(43:29):
and breakfast to go meet Frank.
So I could see where and this iswhere we were initially
confused we're like well, arethere three scenes?
And kind of yes, kind of no.
So kind of the flashback equalsits own scene.
However, it's a scene.
We call it a beat.
So it's like a beat with itsown structure within that first
scene.
Okay, so the first scene.
Do you want to walk us throughthe commandments of this?
Speaker 2 (43:49):
yeah, yeah, all right , so quickly.
What are the commandments?
Five commandments ofstorytelling come from story
grid.
Inciting incident is anunexpected disturbance that
either creates the goal for thescene right or it changes the
way the character needs to andchanges the approach the
character needs to.
It changes the approach thecharacter needs to take in order
(44:10):
to achieve their goal.
The turning point is the peak Ilike to call it the peak
conflict, or it's like the peakprogressive complication, so the
main conflict of the scenethat's going to thrust the main
character into a crisis decision.
The crisis decision is a bestbet choice or a conciliable
goods decision, which is aninverse of a best bet choice.
The crisis decision is abest-fed choice or a conciliable
goods decision, which is aninverse of a best-fed choice.
(44:30):
So this is the dilemma thecharacter faces.
This is the main anchor of ascene, because this is what
defines how a character acts andmoves forward, which will
advance the plot and help thecharacter right.
The climax is the direct actionthat the character takes based
on their crisis, and theresolution are the events that
(44:51):
happen afterwards and show uswhere the character lands
externally and internally, orliterally and psychologically.
So those are what thecommandments are For this first
one.
It's funny because I always sayfor whatever reason, I
understand the inciting incident, but when it comes to very
layered scenes like this, I havea hard time pulling out the
(45:11):
inciting incident.
Speaker 1 (45:12):
I'm sure Savannah will have to To be fair.
Speaker 2 (45:14):
This one's hard?
Yeah, I think that you have,but even in general I'm like why
do I have a hard time landing?
Speaker 1 (45:19):
on the inciting incident.
Speaker 2 (45:20):
I think the big thing I'm always trying to think
about is how do we connecteverything to the same overall
arc in the scene, right?
So you have to start with yourcharacter's goal.
If the goal's not there, it'swhat's going to be created.
So the goal for this firstscene is really meeting up with
Frank.
Right, it's like she wants tomeet up with Frank.
Speaker 1 (45:39):
I'm going to chime in and read what it says so that
people can see what thistranslates to.
So there's a line that says Imet Miss Baird in the front hall
on my way out, and then laterit says in dialogue I'm just
going down to the village tomeet Frank, We'll be back for
tea.
Speaker 2 (45:55):
So simple, very simple goal, but it's there,
very simple, right, and youdon't need a huge goal.
Sometimes, right, the incitingincidents I said is when she
bumps into Frank, because shedidn't expect to bump into him
in where she does, and this wasa tricky one.
So I would say, out of the, outof the commitments that I'm
gonna propose, that one was thehardest for me yeah, and I think
(46:19):
so.
Speaker 1 (46:19):
There's a couple things we'll say about the scene
.
One of them is like is that thestrongest?
Probably not.
Also, the stakes in this sceneare really low.
We'll get to that in a second,but what notice at this point,
if you're following along in thetext, we have skipped that
whole flashback.
So we're going to come back tothat in part of the, the setup,
the exposition, the, you know,getting us ready for the
(46:40):
conflict.
So I agree with abigail it'sit's not that she met frank.
She was expecting to run intofrank at some point, so it it's
not that she did, it's how andwhen she did it that we think
counts as that inciting incident, because now that she's met him
what are they going to do?
Speaker 2 (46:58):
Yeah.
So the turning point.
When I was talking to Savannah,I had two options.
I'm going to tell you the one Iside with as well as the one
that I was thinking about.
So I said, okay, we mentionedearlier, like the blood on the
doorstep is loud.
So I'm like, oh well, thatcould be a turning point because
Frank, in his like nerding outabout this, immediately right
Runs off and there is blood hereand she actually has some
(47:18):
contemplation about, like ifthere's a maniac around killing
people, I don't know how I feelabout being left alone, right?
So there is that potential ofsending her into a crisis of do
I follow him or not?
The other one is when Frankdecides to have Sherry with
Bainbridge and she decides tostay behind.
I actually side with the latterof those when Frank decides to
(47:41):
have Sherry with Bainbridge, andthe reason for that is because
the blonde part leads intoimportant context.
Again, she's showing this onthe page through context, which
is why it's valuable.
That leads to the discussionabout myths and why myths are so
important, and that sets us upto have our supernatural dial
turned up when Frank sees whathe thinks could be a ghost
(48:03):
because of the not movingclothes, right so, and she kind
of even like jokes around withhim about the ghost until he
says right about the clothes.
And that's the second scene.
Yeah, we'll get there,ultimately I went with Frank
decides to have Sherry withBainbridge, you know, notice
that that crisis, that turningpoint that lends her to the
crisis of do I go and join himor not, actually warrants the
(48:26):
backstory.
That works as its own potentialscene, but I would call it a
feat, so I I would leave itthere because that, ultimately,
what's interesting is both ofthose, if you choose either one,
both.
Both of the climaxes are shestays behind, but in different
ways, and the resolution isgoing to be pretty quick because
(48:46):
she actually ends with more ofthat backstory than returning to
where she is.
So the she decides to staybehind.
She's just going to chill outat home or chill out at miss
baird's right.
Speaker 1 (48:56):
So so okay.
So we have kind of a low stakessituation and, however, given
the context, like abigail said,her goal and frank's goal is to
spend time together.
So by her deciding that she'snot going to partake in this
discussion of history and localmyths and she's going to go back
to the room alone, it's notgetting her what she wants.
(49:17):
Necessarily.
She would just rather be alonethan deal with what's going to
happen at the street.
Speaker 2 (49:21):
Yeah, and I think that that's the big part of it,
right, because the backstoryreveals that I don't think OK.
So this is, this is what'stricky.
She uses colorful language,right, and she uses it like not
regularly, it's just because sheburns her hands, is what she
explains, and Bainbridge, likesuper, judges her about it To
(49:42):
the point where they have toexplain why she has colorful
language.
Because she was pullingshrapnel out of men in the war.
So she picked up this languagelike and if you're talking about
roles of women back then and in20th century, this is all
playing into context, right?
Yeah, so this is kind ofsetting this up.
Now what I think is interestingabout this decision do I go
(50:05):
with bainbridge or not?
Like he doesn't even seem likehe's like this, like terrible
guy and and it doesn't reallynecessarily feel like Frank is
totally being disloyal to her bygoing with Bainbridge.
But at the same time, like inthe backstory, it's kind of like
why are you feeling like youhave to explain something about
your wife versus either justlike joke along with it or
(50:27):
defend it like it she was switch?
Speaker 1 (50:31):
under the rug of the love triangle, because when
she's with jamie it's not likethat.
Speaker 2 (50:35):
So that's a big difference culturally and within
the two relationships, which isreally interesting so that's
when it's like you know, and shedoesn't even walk out seeming
like she's like in our marriage,like I feel like you you didn
out.
Seeming like she's like in ourmarriage, like I feel like you
didn't defend me, like she's notcommunicating that through us,
through interiority, so we don'tget the sense of like this was
tremendously painful to her, ifanything.
(50:57):
Like she's very steadfast inher confidence in herself and
drops the sugar in those, likethe sugar cube in her tea.
Like I love that last line,right, she's very you can tell
like she's a strong world woman,right.
But it's interesting to gothere because when we do talk
about is there friction in themarriage, that is the moment
that I think creates it.
Speaker 1 (51:22):
Yeah, and it leads kind of to what's coming next,
which we'll talk about.
But let's go back to thatbackstory piece a little bit,
because there's we like talkabout beats we've done episodes
on this before but it'sbasically like how, what are the
sections that are moving thescene forward?
So there's a part where we goback to that morning and we hear
about miss bane, mrs bairdvacuuming outside their door
when they're, you know, kind ofhaving a private moment, and you
(51:43):
can infer that there's astructure there.
So it's a little bit longer ofa flashback than you know.
Just a couple sentences ofcontext, and because it's longer
, we need that structure inthere to show us what.
You know, what was the conflictthat morning, what was the
decision that they made, and itkeeps it interesting.
So it's not just like this iswhat happened and it's all
(52:05):
boring information.
It's like there was conflict,there was flirting, there was
good stuff, like this is whathappened and it's all boring
information.
It's like there was conflict,there was flirting, there was
good stuff too.
Um, so I think within, ifyou're looking at the scene and
we don't have to go throughevery piece but when you're
looking at it, just say what'sgoing on in these pieces and how
did the author make itinteresting?
Because there is a lot ofinformation and the stakes are
low.
So that's what really interestsme is I'm like, yeah, there's a
(52:28):
lot of stuff, but I wasn't madat any of it this whole time.
Speaker 2 (52:31):
Right, so it worked.
I found it very challenging toanalyze, yeah.
Speaker 1 (52:37):
But it works.
Yeah, exactly, okay, so let'sgo to scene two and let me read
this line that's going to kindof give us context.
So this is where we're gettingthe goal.
And right after that, Jesus HRoosevelt, Christ line.
It says after a peaceful andnot unpleasant sit with Miss
Baird, I made my way upstairs toready myself before Frank came
(52:59):
home.
So that's our goal.
Very simple again.
Speaker 2 (53:02):
Yep, yep, I'm going to get ready, right.
Yep, and this one's a littlebit easier for me, I feel like
when breaking it down, becauseit did feel like not in your
face stakes and that they'reconfronting this right now, but
it's going to deal with theghost-like appearance man
watching Claire from outside.
(53:22):
Yeah so in him seeing this, theturning point is going to be the
question about being infidelity, right, did she ever have an
affair?
So he asked her they're havingactually a very flirty, intimate
moment, right.
And he asked her if she knewany Scottish men when she was a
(53:43):
nurse.
And then he proposes you know,if you ever ever had anything,
if you ever had an affair, Iwould understand, right.
So that kind of sends her intothis crisis of do I defend
myself or not?
Speaker 1 (53:56):
yeah, it's more like how is she going to respond?
Speaker 2 (53:58):
right, right.
So it's like I think that andthe climax is that she's very
offended, right, yeah, and sheimmediately explains, like, like
questions, challenges him.
How could you even ask me that?
Yeah, right, because obviouslyto even ask the question
suggests that there areinsecurities or trust issues,
right, and the resolution isthat they actually like I guess
(54:21):
I'm going to emphasize that evenin that climax, when she's like
he goes to touch her to comforther and she says don't touch me
, right, like she's that, likehe goes to touch her for to
comfort her, and she says don'ttouch me, right, like she's that
upset, and then the resolutionhe basically says to her you
know, I would love you, nomatter what, and then they kind
of rekindle their moment.
But it's later that she thinksthe last, that big wham, last
(54:45):
thought of I did.
I answered that I of courseneed did not have this flaming
affair, but what does that meanabout him?
Speaker 1 (54:53):
yep, and I think there's even a slightly
different way we could look atthat.
As you're saying that, I'm likeyes, and so I think it could
also be.
There's a part where frankbasically says, like can you
forgive me for upsetting youthis badly?
And then she has to decide andit's not very literal on the
page, neither of these optionsare but she basically has to
decide is she going to or not?
She does, and then we have thatbomb of like well, did he?
(55:17):
And so this is a question Isthat where you side more?
I'm not sure.
I would say, just for the sakeof being devil's advocate, I
will say yes.
Speaker 2 (55:28):
I think either way, though, like the same place.
Either way, it's not wrong.
Speaker 1 (55:30):
We're getting the same place, but someone today
asked me a question about crisismoments not being literal on
the page, and I think this is agreat example because we can
understand it's.
How is she going to respondeither way, and she's not
sitting there in bed with herhands on her hips going.
Should I react poorly or shouldI be okay with this?
Or should I forgive him or not?
Right, we can infer what'sgoing on because of all the
(55:53):
context.
Speaker 2 (55:54):
That's so interesting .
So I have a client that I'mworking with too, and he asked
when it comes to the crisisquestion, do you need to have a
should I type of question?
And I'm like, when you'reoutlining or when you're looking
at this as a writer, you needto write that down.
Yes, like it doesn'tnecessarily have to be phrased
with the word should, but itshould be a literal question
that like, even when I do theincident, outline, what, why?
(56:16):
Like in the what I underline,like on its own thing, here's
the crisis, and I underline itbecause that is the point of
your scene right.
Speaker 1 (56:24):
I think if you're not literal in the outlining or
drafting phase, you risk missingit and then your draft is going
to break down.
So, when in doubt, be literaland then prove yourself that you
can.
Speaker 2 (56:33):
You don't need to write it and editing yeah.
Right, and there will be caseswhere it works for you to write
it literally.
But if you are cookie cutteringit in the actual prose, that
will become really flat.
Speaker 1 (56:45):
Yeah, another example that is tends to kind of click
in people's brain is if you'rein the middle of an action scene
and you're fighting, you're notgoing to sit on a battlefield
and go.
Should I go left and, like,stab those people?
Or should I go right and stabthose people Right, like you're?
You're just going to react.
However, if we don't understandwhat the the stakes are or what
(57:06):
that context is for thatdecision, then it's not going to
work.
So we need the stakes and thecontext built in before either a
literal or inferred crisis.
So I think that's a goodexample of it.
But that brings us to the endof chapter one.
So again, there's a whole lotof stuff in there, but we think
it's two scenes with, in thatfirst scene of stuff in there,
(57:30):
right, but we think it's twoscenes with, in that first scene
, a lot of context, setup,exposition, backstory in a way
that works and yeah, we, and ifyou've read it, if you read the
whole novel before, likesavannah, I would challenge you
to all that material that ishappening around the structure.
Speaker 2 (57:42):
Ask yourself, go back to those first seven chapter
questions and ask yourself whichone of these is it benefiting
and how is it creating anexpectation because of how it's
benefiting, because I thinkthat's a good tool to use too
when you're analyzing.
Do I have strong first pages?
Go through those questions andask yourself all these extra
details, are we having addedweight?
Or are the details anddescriptions or interiorities
(58:05):
serving one of the sevenquestions?
The purposes?
Speaker 1 (58:08):
of those seven elements.
A bad example is if in thisfirst chapter and first scene we
had Frank go into like adiatribe about the war, it
doesn't really matter right now.
We know that there was a warback in his ancestor's time.
We don't need to know more thanthat.
So you can just kind of saylike first, what is the present
(58:29):
prompting?
So are there moments in thepresent story that's prompting
the window for backstory orexposition to come through?
And then also, like Abigailsaid, what point is it serving?
And if you can't find a goodanswer to either of those, you
probably don't need it.
That's right, yeah, so we'revery interested to hear what you
guys think of this.
If you agree, if you can see itbetter now that we broke it
(58:51):
down, if you disagree, we'rehappy to hear that as well, so
let us know.
Speaker 2 (58:54):
Yeah, and thanks again, savannah, for being here.
Thank you to all our listenerswho are here.
We love doing these firstchapters.
They challenge us in big waysas well, and I can't wait to
bring more material to you soon.
Speaker 1 (59:17):
So that's it for today's episode.
As always, thank you so muchfor tuning in and for showing
your support.
If you want to check out any ofthe links I mentioned in this
episode, you can find them inthe show notes listed in the
description of each episodeinside your podcast player or at
savannahgilbocom forward slashpodcast.
If you're an Apple user, I'dreally appreciate it if you took
a few seconds to leave a ratingand a review.
Your ratings and reviews tellApple that this is a podcast
(59:38):
that's worth listening to and,in turn, your reviews will help
this podcast get in front ofmore fiction writers just like
you.
And while you're there, goahead and hit that follow button
, because there's going to beanother brand new episode next
week, full of actionable tips,tools and strategies to help you
become a better writer.
So I'll see you next week anduntil then, happy writing.
Sometimes writers will ask me, especially if
they're writing a paranormal orfantasy or sci-fi and the
character starts in the normalworld.
So in the normal world theremight not be elements of that.
You know, magic or whatever,and it's like that's fine
because you're right.
In a normal world if we don'thave magic, it makes sense.
But how do we still signal tothe reader don't be surprised if
(00:20):
in chapter four there's amagician.
Or don't be surprised ifthere's faster than light travel
, you know.
So we do need to have thoseflavors, even as subtle as they
are, in this opening chapter toset up the correct reader
expectations.
Welcome to the Fiction WritingMade Easy podcast.
My name is Savannah Gilbo andI'm here to help you write a
(00:40):
story that works.
I want to prove to you thatwriting a novel doesn't have to
be overwhelming.
So each week I'll bring you abrand new episode with simple,
actionable and step-by-stepstrategies that you can
implement in your writing rightaway.
So whether you're brand new towriting or more of a seasoned
author looking to improve yourcraft, this podcast is for you.
So pick up a pen and let's getstarted.
(01:04):
In today's episode, abigail KPerry and I are diving deep into
the first chapter of Outlanderby Diana Galbadon, and I'm so
excited to dig into the openingpages of this book with you, not
only because I love theOutlander series, but also
because it's the book that you,my lovely listeners, voted on
when I pulled you in mynewsletter last month.
(01:25):
So I'm very excited for thisone, and I hope you are as well.
Something else that's going tobe fun about this episode is
that I've read the book and I'vewatched the TV show, but
Abigail has neither read thebook nor has she watched the
show, so she's coming out thisanalysis with more of a blank
slate, and I always think it'sfun to see if we agree on our
(01:46):
analysis, when one of us knowsthe book and the other doesn't.
And or if we don't agree, whatexactly is it that we see
differently based on having reador not having read the book?
So I think it's going to bereally fun to see what happens.
And in case this is your firsttime hearing one of these first
chapter analysis episodes, I dohave a co-host today.
(02:07):
Her name is Abigail K Perry andshe is a developmental editor
and the host of an amazingpodcast called Lit Match.
On her podcast, she helpswriters find the best literary
agent for their writing andpublishing careers.
I will link to where you canfind Abigail around the internet
, as well as her podcast in theshow notes.
But essentially what we're goingto do is we're going to dive
(02:28):
into the first chapter ofOutlander to see how and why it
works.
So we want to identify thingslike how many scenes there are
in this first chapter and ifthere are multiple scenes, then
what does the structure of eachscene look like?
We also want to identify howthe author set up the rest of
the book in the opening pagesand what makes the opening
(02:49):
chapter engaging.
So how and why did it hook usreaders, or did it fail to hook
us as readers?
And either way, what can we allcollectively learn to make our
own writing better?
So that's what we're doingtoday and, without further ado,
let's dive right into ourconversation about the opening
chapter of Outlander by DianaGalbadon.
Speaker 2 (03:11):
Hey, savannah, I'm so happy to be back at this that
we haven't recorded in a whileand we are going to continue our
fun, fun collaboration wherewe're reading first chapters,
we're analyzing first chaptersand, while we do go through our
picks, I either know the storywell and you don't, or vice
versa, and today we're in theboat of.
(03:32):
You have read this one, I havenot read this one.
I think a lot of people whoknow me would be surprised that
I haven't read this one, butit's going to be for a great
conversation either way, sohappy to have you.
Speaker 1 (03:42):
I am surprised you haven't read this one and
spoiler we're doing Outlander ifyou didn't read the title of
this episode.
So we are going to analyze thefirst chapter of Outlander, and
what's fun about this is we tooka poll back in November and we
had four options on the poll andOutlander won by a landslide.
So we are doing the listenervoted book, which is really fun
(04:04):
and exciting as well.
Speaker 2 (04:08):
And if you're just excited about this episode, I'd
love to hear more about why thisone for you, this first chapter
is not an easy one to analyze,so we're going to have some fun
analyzing it.
We did come to a consensus lastnight in preparation for this
episode on how many scenes wethink are in it, so I think we
pretty quickly landed in asimilar boat for what those
(04:31):
scenes were.
But I think there's a lot todiscuss in general with the
first chapter questions.
So Savannah is going to have asummary of what this first
chapter is.
If you haven't read it, feelfree to hit pause and go read it
and come back, or feel free tolisten and then go read it
afterwards.
Regardless, I encourage, likeall first chapter episodes, for
you to actually read the text orlisten to the text at some
(04:52):
point, to understand thebreakdown and to obviously grow
your craft because of that.
These are fun episodes to helpus how to read with a purpose
and to become better at ourcraft by understanding great
storytelling.
So go ahead, savannah, take itaway.
Summary for first chapter ofOutlander.
Speaker 1 (05:08):
Yep, and real quick before I do that.
So you said you want to hearfrom people about why you wanted
this and we were talking aboutthis.
We're like is it because it'sromance, is it because it is a
historical romance, or is itbecause it looks really hard and
you guys wanted to challenge us?
So we want to know maybe it's amixture of all those things Is
it our most challenging today,or at least one of them for sure
(05:28):
?
Speaker 2 (05:28):
It has a lot going on in it.
So I actually think that, beingable to confidently say I think
it's this many scenes I came toquicker than some of the other
ones that we've analyzed, but asa whole, I will say I had to
listen to it and read itmultiple times because I have
not read the whole book and Iwas like there are a lot of
(05:50):
details and I'm trying to figureout what this is.
So if I had not had you,savannah, to chat about with it,
I would say this is probablythe most difficult chapter I've
tried to analyze, but I had youto chat about with it, so it
helps to get there quicker.
Speaker 1 (06:03):
We had to chat to prepare for this.
It was really fun.
So, anyway, let me dive intothe summary.
So this, like Abigail said,it's a long first chapter.
A lot's going on.
So, essentially, claire she'sour main character Claire and
her husband of eight years hisname is Frank.
They're on vacation inInverness in Scotland and
they're on a second honeymoonthat they hope and think are
(06:25):
going to allow them to bereconnected, rekindle that
romance after being separated.
For I think it was seven yearsduring World War II.
So Claire in the war was anurse and Frank he was in
officer's training and he didsomething with M16.
I don't know if we ever figureout exactly what that is with
(06:45):
M16.
I don't know if we ever figureout exactly what that is, but
that's what he did.
He's a historian, he's aprofessor who has recently
accepted a permanent position atOxford University, so there's a
little bit of that influencingtheir trip to Inverness as well.
Frank is deeply interested inScottish history, which is very
apparent in this first chapter.
So while they're in Invernesshe's also going to be
(07:06):
researching one of his ancestors, whose name is Jack Randall.
So what happens in this chapteris that one day Claire's out
going on her way to meet Frankand she's looking at a vase in a
window.
She's thinking about how Oxfordwill be their first real home
and how they're hoping to have ababy and things like that.
Then she meets up with Frankand they are on their way back
(07:30):
to the place they're staying andthey see bloodstains on the
doorsteps of several local homesand they're just like what the
heck is going on.
So it's jarring a little bit atfirst, but then Frank's like I
know what's going on.
That blood is part of an oldsuperstitious house cleansing
ritual in the Scottish Highlands.
So it's not like anyonecommitted murder or anything,
although they do kill chickens.
So I guess they do commitmurder, but not a murder of a
(07:53):
human.
So then later that eveningFrank meets a local historian
and they talk through somethings.
While Claire stays at the bedand breakfast A storm picks up
outside and when Frank returnsback to the place they're
staying, he thinks he saw aghost.
So he says it's a strapping mandressed in a customary Scottish
kilt and he thinks that man waslooking at Claire through the
(08:14):
window.
He says, even though the windwas blowing, the man's clothes
did not move, which is why hethinks it was a ghost.
Then they're, you know, layingin bed.
Frank quietly speculates thatyou know, had that man been a
former lover of yours that youmet in the army?
And Claire becomes reallyoffended, saying that you know,
I would never do such a thing toyou.
(08:35):
And then only after theargument ends does Claire wonder
if maybe Frank was opening thedoor to a conversation, that
maybe he had his own affair orsomething while they were
separated by the war, and thenthey go to sleep.
So quite a bit of stuff, andthat's not even the iceberg of
the stuff that happens.
Speaker 2 (08:55):
Yeah, and just based on the length of that summary
and we know how concise Savannahis, you can tell that there are
a lot of details going on, andwe mentioned this is historical,
so that's part of the reasonfor this, and I think, coming
from this from a perspective ofI have not read the whole story,
(09:16):
I think that's where I keptasking Savannah for reassurance,
like I'm assuming all thesedetails come into play right,
we're doing more than justgrounding us in the world, and
you can kind of assume that,like if it's being this
phenomenon that this story is, Ican pretty confidently assume
that these details were wellplaced.
So then it's just a matter ofhow does that work in the story
(09:39):
as a whole and preparing us tounderstand what this is going to
be from a reader's perspective.
And that's how we address thatwith the first chapter questions
.
Speaker 1 (09:47):
So why don't we go ahead and yeah, let me interrupt
you there a second because thisso I did the word count and
we're at about 7,500 words forthis first chapter, which is
quite a bit.
I don't know how that comparesto the rest of the chapters, but
that's just something to helpkeep in mind.
We're also you know we said thesummary is long.
There's a lot of detail, a lotof context, depending on what
(10:09):
you're used to reading.
I think what was interestingfor us is that we're not used to
necessarily reading historicalall the time.
So, like Abigail said, is it alot of detail or is this
something that's very specificto the genre?
We don't know for sure, but itwas an interesting experience to
feel that and then question itand say does it matter, is it
(10:30):
impactful?
And you know we'll get intothat more later.
Speaker 2 (10:33):
I really like reading historical.
Kristen Hanna is arguably myfavorite commercial author.
I'd say you know I was going tosay my author and she's.
She's up there like I.
I love kristen hannah, but whatI actually love about her are
her later books, which have beenall historical and you can tell
she does the research.
So when I'm reading somethinglike that with her with her
(10:56):
first chapters, it was justinteresting to see like I'd have
to go back and now compare likeis, but so I don't.
I wouldn't say that I readhistorical all the time, but I
do love chris and hannis.
Now I'm like in that boat oflike what is this for the genre?
yeah but I wonder what the?
Do you know what the word countfor outlander is as a whole?
Because this book is long as awhole.
(11:17):
So when you look at 7500 wordsfor the opening in comparison to
the book as a whole, is itpretty relative to what a normal
scene length would be for or anormal first chapter would be
for like a 90,000 word novel.
Speaker 1 (11:32):
So I just Googled it.
I don't know how accurate thisis, but I Googled it.
Google says it's 305,000 words.
Speaker 2 (11:41):
I would assume that based on the audio length is 33
hours.
Yes, I would assume that's onthe audio length is 33 hours.
Speaker 1 (11:46):
Yes, I would assume that's correct, but again don't
know for sure.
Speaker 2 (11:48):
Yeah, think about that too like, obviously, if you
are writing your debuthistorical fiction novel, you're
probably not going to write 300plus.
Speaker 1 (11:57):
Yeah, we're in plus words, right, but there's some
interesting stuff that I didn'tshare with you yesterday, that I
found on the internet, thatwe'll talk about later, that
we'll go back to thisconversation.
So let's go into the uh, bigpicture questions and you can
you can take over that okay.
Speaker 2 (12:13):
so we're gonna look at the key first chapter
questions.
Remember that these come youhaven't listened to an episode
before.
We pulled these from paul andeunee, the Writer's Guide to
Beginnings.
I really encourage you to readthat book.
It's a great resource by aliterary agent and an author on
what to look for in a firstchapter in order to understand
what the story is going to beabout and if it's going to be
(12:35):
setting us up for a prettysuccessful story, keeping in
mind that you can write the bestfirst chapter in the world, but
if you don't maintain thequality of that storytelling for
the rest of the story, then itwill fall off.
So we're always looking atthese examples of first chapters
and hopefully carrying what youset up as expectations for the
reader into the novel itself.
You got to pay off those setups, right.
(12:55):
So the first question of this welike to kind of categorize and
what are the big elements offiction we're looking at as well
?
And the first one is genre.
And the question is what kindof story is it?
Remembering that when we'retalking about genre, there are
two types of genres Savannah andI like to talk about Content
genre and commercial genre,commercial genre where are you
going to market the story?
If you go in a bookstore, whereare we going to fall?
(13:17):
And that's how you're going tosell the book and content genre.
What type of story is it?
So?
What can we expect for commonconventions, the bookatory
scenes and things like that?
Speaker 1 (13:26):
Yeah.
So if we kind of merge whatAmazon has this listed under,
we're looking at a historicaltime travel fantasy romance
which all of that, no matter howyou parse it.
If you say historical romance,historical fantasy, historical
time travel, time travel romance, it all gets you to the same
place.
So we're in that realm.
Commercially and content wise Iwould say we're in the romance
(13:48):
territory.
I haven't studied this bookenough to know if the internal
genre is worldview or if it'smaybe a little morality.
Because there is this centralquestion of is it okay to love
two men equally?
Am I cheating on my spouse?
If I've gone back in time andfallen in love, I know that
usually characters in moralitystories are not great people at
(14:11):
the beginning of the story.
So that makes me lean a littlebit more towards worldview.
But again, I haven't studied itso in depth where I could say
for sure.
Speaker 2 (14:21):
Yeah.
So, coming from this, nothaving read this novel and
probably being influenced byunderstanding what the
commercial genre is, I wouldargue that it's also going to be
love as a content genre.
When you read this firstchapter, those stakes are not
obvious, but the romance is whatwe're focused on.
I would say, like therelationship.
If anything, it doesn't feelnecessarily like this is a
(14:44):
courting type of romance, right,because she's married to Frank,
so Claire's married to Frankalready.
I know we're going to get intoit.
Sorry if it's a spoiler, butJamie is going to be the other
love interest and he is theghost-like character at the end
of the chapter.
So you're going to be dealingwith a big love triangle and I
think that ultimately you'reintroducing all three characters
(15:07):
in this opening, so we can seethat this is where dynamic is
going to be interesting.
For you to say worldview ormorality, I would not have
guessed morality, and all basedon not knowing the story yeah
and I don't think that I couldconfidently actually even argue
what the internal arc is until Iread the full story.
(15:27):
My gut would immediately go toworldview because I actually
feel and historical, I think ingeneral you get this feeling
that it almost feels like it'sgoing to be internally driven as
the dominant genre when you'rereading especially openings like
this because there's so muchlayering with backstory.
So it's like, okay, we'respending a lot of time really
(15:48):
getting to know her characterand where she's at and like what
she's dealing with.
But ultimately, when I lookedat both scenes now I try to say
what are we really dealing withwith a goal and what is it?
A shift and change in each ofthese it deals with frank and
Claire and their relationship,even if it feels like we're just
kind of like walking throughthe motions, the loudest one
being the question of infidelityat the end of chapter one,
(16:11):
which is why I would land onlove.
Speaker 1 (16:13):
Yeah, and so I could totally argue worldview as well,
because I think you can kind oftranslate the other internal
genres into worldview easy.
So like we could say somethinglike her worldview when she
lands back in time in a futurechapter is I need to get back, I
love my husband, that's theright thing to do, I belong
there.
And then her worldview changesas she's in this relationship
(16:34):
with Jamie and back in time.
But there you know, there isthat flavor of is it okay to be
doing what I'm doing?
I feel like a bad person andthere's and Claire's not the
most religious person, butreligious stuff comes into it,
especially back in history.
So I don't know without furtheranalysis, but I think we're
confident saying it's romance.
(16:55):
There's either a worldview,internal arc or a morality, and
then there's also an actionpiece to this which sounds
strange.
But when we get back in timethere are life and death stakes.
They're in the middle of a war,so that makes sense.
In this first chapter do we geta glimpse of that Kind of Not
really stakes-wise but more inthe?
(17:15):
There's blood on the doorsteps,chickens are being sacrificed,
there's possibly a ghost outside, whether we believe that or not
.
So we get little flavors sayingthat there's something in that
realm, something in a paranormalrealm, something in a fantasy
realm too.
So the flavors are all there.
Speaker 2 (17:32):
It's just let's see where we go from there.
Yeah, and it's interesting, wecan talk about this when we get
to the scene structure more butthe blood, the romance, notice
that those are all very externalthings.
Right, this first chapter isdominantly internal, I would say
like it's dominantly internal,but those moments are very loud
(17:53):
and grab your attention quicklybecause they're they're
happening outside of us, right,and that tends to be something
that can just be like oh, I'mnow paying attention to that.
So even if I, like I would saythat there, I would argue there
aren't really like death stingson the page in this opening
chapter.
But exactly what you said,there are hints of it.
It's like we still get thatsense of something's going on
(18:14):
here.
What's it going to lead to that?
Speaker 1 (18:17):
pull us in into that and the reason that's important,
because sometimes writers willask me, especially if they're
writing a paranormal or fantasyor sci-fi and the character
starts in the normal world.
So in the normal world theremight not be elements of that.
You know magic or whatever, andit's like that's fine because
you're right.
In a normal world if we don'thave magic, it makes sense.
(18:37):
But how do we still signal tothe reader don't be surprised if
in chapter four there's amagician.
Or don't be surprised ifthere's faster than light travel
.
You know.
So we do need to have thoseflavors, even as subtle as they
are, in this opening chapter toset up the correct reader
expectations.
Speaker 2 (18:54):
And we can talk about this in the next question that
deals with plot.
But also to build off of that,we talk so much, and you said
part of this is because Frank issuch a history buff, right.
We talk so much, and you saidpart of this is because Frank is
such a history buff, right.
So he really nerds out when itgets into details of history,
which grounds his character butalso gives us context, because
there's a lot of discussionabout myths.
Yes, why?
The Scotch Highlands inparticular have a lot of these
(19:16):
superstitions and dealings withmyths.
Nothing is in your facehappening on the page that is
threatening Claire's life orFrank's life.
Because the superstitions Ithink that we believe in the
ghost aspect of Jamie at the endmore because we had the whole
discussion about myths and wesaw the blood stuff.
(19:36):
So that can kind of we'll leadinto the plot question, because
it might build off of that.
But the second question, just aplot, and the question is what
is the story about?
What is it really about?
Or what is that big picture?
If we were looking at a bigpicture.
Developmental level what?
Speaker 1 (19:52):
is the story about.
Yeah, and I'm very interested tosee your take on this, not
knowing the rest of the story,but for me it's you read because
you want to find out who's shegoing to choose Frank or Jamie
once she goes back in time, andwhere is she going to end up.
We also, in this first chapter,get little hints.
I guess that more speak to thenext question of character.
But we know she wants to have achild, things like that.
(20:13):
So these are the type ofquestions we have which again,
go more towards thatrelationship angle, that love
angle, more so than any of theother genres we mentioned.
Speaker 2 (20:22):
Yes, and so knowing what the story is about,
obviously I've heard ofOutlander, I just haven't read
it.
Speaker 1 (20:28):
Or seen the show right.
Speaker 2 (20:36):
I have not seen the show either, so I think that
that is immediately what I wouldassume the question would be,
because I knew ahead of timethat there was going to be this
time traveling back in time.
There's going to be this manthat she falls in love with.
I don't actually know if I knew, though, about the husband
until I read the first chapter,so as soon as I put those pieces
together, I could assume that'sgoing to be the question.
Looking at the first chapterfrom Blind's Eye, like just
coming into this cold, myattention really goes to the
(20:58):
question, not so much as a lovetriangle, but more so of the
marriage itself, right, and itwould be more about a marital
question, mainly again pullingme into that, her immediate
anger.
She's quick to anger when heasks her about infidelity.
How could you assume that Iwould like, how could you ask
(21:19):
that question?
She gets really upset about it,right, and it's not until the
very last line or two that sherealizes maybe he had an affair,
right?
So my thought, just coming incold from this first chapter,
would be this is going to beabout can this marriage survive,
which it kind of is.
Can?
Speaker 1 (21:37):
this marriage survive , which it kind of is?
Speaker 2 (21:38):
yeah right, which it kind of is, but then of course
the depth of that is going to bepulled in with the, with the
love triangle which you need, alove triangle in any romance
look how cool the one is herebecause, like you said, in the
first chapter we see the ghostwhich we find out later is
actually jamie's ghost.
Speaker 1 (21:55):
So you, you have a love triangle, but separated by
two timelines.
That's really cool.
Yeah, I also think her reactionto his question about was there
someone back in the war is agreat setup for what comes later
, because she has such avisceral reaction to no, I did
not cheat on you.
And then she falls in love witha man in a different timeline
and questions herself the wholeentire time Well, and that's
(22:16):
really hard too.
Speaker 2 (22:17):
I mean because I'm assuming Frank did have an
affair and that's going to comeout.
I can't remember actually, butregardless they had this
marriage already was up againstextreme hardship because the war
separated them for six years.
Frank says we saw each otherthree times.
One time for only a day in sixyears.
And now they're back togetherand the whole reason why they're
(22:39):
in the Scottish Highlands isbecause they thought it would be
a good place to revive theirmarriage.
So we know they're there to tryto do that, not because they've
hated each other, but justbecause it's been a long time.
And she is struggling to getpregnant and you can tell that
both of them want that, so thatadds hardship in a marriage.
Them want that, so that addshardship in a marriage.
(23:00):
So the stakes are high in theirown ways, even if we haven't
necessarily gotten to thequestion of who will she pick by
the end.
Speaker 1 (23:04):
Yeah, and which is really cool because think about
the two perspectives, like ifyou had written this book, our
listener, you and someone whohas cold to it is kind of
getting the gist, and someonewho has read it is also able to
say like this is what we'releading into.
That means it works right, we'vedone our job.
So the other thing I wanted totalk about in plot because this
(23:25):
could confuse people is there isa war when we land back in the
1800s and there is like dangerthat claire is consistently like
having to save jamie from, orvice versa, and it's so
interesting.
I love seeing books where theaction is more from or vice
versa, and it's so interesting.
I love seeing books where theaction is more of a subplot,
because it's hard to pull off,because how do you always make
the love stakes louder than theaction stakes?
(23:46):
Right?
But it's just really importantbecause or it's really impactful
because we have that lovefoundation set up.
So it's kind of like hergrowing love for him spurs her
to risk herself to rescue him ordo something you know within
that action plot, when you knowsometimes we could argue she
(24:07):
could literally just walk backto the stepping stones and try
to go home, no, so it's justreally interesting to see the
dynamic work.
Speaker 2 (24:15):
The third question is the point of view and who is
telling the story.
Speaker 1 (24:19):
Yep.
So we're in Claire's point ofview.
It's, I believe it's firstperson.
Yep, first person.
She's the only point of view.
Character Makes total sense.
Why the author chose this?
Because it's her story.
Right, it's her love story.
She loves Frank, she lovesJamie.
She's experiencing that likecognitive dissonance of going
back in time and struggling tofigure out her bearings and
(24:41):
things like that.
So I will say in the openingchapter there's like a little
flavor of omniscient.
Did you catch that in like thevery first sentence?
Yes, just common.
It's kind of like usuallytacked on, you know, and we kind
of, I think a historical,especially because we're doing a
lot of groundwork with historyitself.
Speaker 2 (24:58):
But Diane Gabaldon so she does a really great job at
weaving history, descriptions ofhistory that have relevance or
I assume we're going to haverelevance through context, and I
use the Giver of Stars by JojoMoyes a lot when I talk about
creating backstory as a beatwithin a scene and it has to
(25:19):
have its own commandments andyou have to have like a bigger
back.
It's like a bigger moment ofbackstory than just a line or
two of description.
And it's interesting when youtalk about the point of view.
Having that first person fromClaire allows us to go
experience a moment with herthat I think grounds characters,
grounds relationships andgrounds world in a moment that
she's explaining to us, like inparticular in this first chapter
(25:42):
, when they're talking about herexpletives, like her language
at that when they were havingtea, and you get to experience
that as a moment, which I thinkit's increasing the word count,
but it's far more interestingand there's a lot of character
groundwork done in how sheresponds to that and how she's
(26:03):
thinking about it.
And when we say a lot'shappening in this chapter is
because there are actually likea few.
I think there are a few momentslike that that happen within a
scene itself.
So using that first person, Ithink, is more advantageous when
you do something like that,because you can take us more
into a personal moment.
That does do that backstorywork in an effective
(26:25):
storytelling way baked within ascene Love stories as a whole.
I don't think it's uncommon tohave first person point of views
of all of the lovers in thestory and following Claire.
It makes sense.
Of course, you know I'm comingin from this cold, but if
Jamie's in one timeline andFrank's in another, it sounds
like you're probably going tospend a lot more time with one
(26:48):
over the other.
And if you were trying toinvolve everyone, is it just
going to be distracting usrather than pulling us into the
main story question, which iswho is she going to choose?
Speaker 1 (26:58):
yeah, so most of the story actually takes place in
the past, so we are only withfrank for a very short period of
time, which you wouldn't knowbecause you didn't read it.
But yeah, and that's exactlyright, is it's we get?
It would be crazy to have,because I've actually seen some
people try to do something likeexactly what you just said.
Where it's imagine we haveFrank's point of view in the
present and the reason is alwayswell, readers need to know
(27:21):
what's going on.
And then we have imagine Jamieand Claire's in the past, which
is now Claire's present.
It would just be so much goingon and it's kind of like do we
need to know what's going onwith Frank, or does it create a
better reading experience to beignorant of it like Claire?
Speaker 2 (27:40):
is and I think ignorance is the key word there,
right, Because I think that'sthe.
When people are choosingbetween do I have multi-POV or
single POV, I think the questionI'm always asking them is
what's the value of having morethan one, right?
So it's like what are theybringing?
That's different, and if youare writing a multi-POV, each
character has a point of view.
Best be having their owncharacter arc.
(28:00):
Now, great storytelling, maincharacters are all going to have
their own arc, but do they needit to the depth of structural
execution that the first personpoint of view is having?
I would say Jamie probably isgoing to need to have that
growth of change, but probablynot to of like Claire if she's
the one going through.
The main question Is that right?
Speaker 1 (28:20):
Well, and it's interesting because, Jamie, I
would totally say he has an arcof change, but he's also very
like what he's thinking is kindof what he says, but it's almost
like, imagine if you were tohave his point of view.
It probably wouldn't beadvantageous if most of his
external actions matchesinternal thoughts.
And this is just who hischaracter is.
And listeners feel free todisagree if you interpret it
(28:43):
different.
But yeah, I think it'sinteresting to think about why
she chose to do what she did andit's also interesting to think
about a 305,000 word novel forone point of view.
Speaker 2 (28:55):
No, when you were saying I'll also, he says
exactly what he means.
I don't know if you watched theOffice, but all I could see is
the scene with Kelly.
Daryl is the most confusing manI have ever met.
Speaker 1 (29:08):
Yeah, that's exactly what he says yeah, and then she
says the opposite too yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (29:15):
Okay, so that's point of view.
The fourth question deals withcharacter, and the character
question is which charactershould we care about the most?
Speaker 1 (29:22):
yeah.
So this one's funny because Iwas thinking about that this
morning.
Obviously we care about claire.
There's a lot that we root forher on in this first chapter.
Obviously we want therelationship to to work.
I even related to her androoted for her with her little
adventure of finding plants.
You know, like I want her tofind the plants she wants and so
I care about her.
But I realized I am equallyinvested in the relationship as
(29:46):
a character.
Like I felt it as big as I feltClaire, which is cool.
Speaker 2 (29:51):
I did not dislike Frank.
Speaker 1 (29:54):
Yeah, I didn't dislike Frank either.
Speaker 2 (29:56):
No, so that's where it's like I I, when you're going
through, and I'm thinking about, who do I really care about?
I guess this was one of the.
I enjoy both characters.
I guess, like my level is like,who do I care about the most?
Well, we're following claire,so we're going to care about
claire, right, but I didn'treally feel like these stakes.
They're like, it's not like the, like the actions and it's not
(30:18):
like the action stakes are rightthere where it's like they are
in danger.
I care about them in that way.
You care about them more in thesense of like, getting to know
them and growing a relationshipwith them and coming to care
about them as a human being,right, yeah, like, when I found
like the moments that stand outto me where I'm like, oh, like
Claire starting to become myfriend, that's how it felt to me
(30:40):
Like, out of all of them, itwas like, okay, like we could
sit down and have a tea in hercase and a cup of coffee in my
case and we would get to knoweach other and I would be
growing more affectionate and,you know, concerned for her
concerns and whatever they are,as she is internalizing
everything because of what she'sdoing and it's like, okay, what
do I care about?
Like you said, the relationshipFrom page one.
I think that's what you startto care about.
(31:02):
That care for the relationshipgrows as you get to know the
characters more with each page.
So, from the beginning, when youknow this marriage has suffered
six years of distance outsideof their own will thanks to war,
that immediately is going toput trauma on you regardless.
Right, right, I care about bothof them immediately, just
(31:23):
because of the unfortunatesituation that brought them to
where they are today and you'rerooting for them because, like
here they are, like they don'tdislike each other, they
obviously love each other and Ithink that that was such an
interesting thing to see as anopening with through characters,
because you're not opening with, like these characters at like
(31:45):
really at an emotional low andlike the marriage is struggling
and like this is what'shappening, like they genuinely
love each other and they're justtrying to resalvage time that
they've lost.
Until that very last questionof did he have an affair and how
he prefaces it with.
If you ever had an affair, Iwould still love you.
(32:07):
There's nothing that you coulddo that I don't love you.
That would make me not love you, and even in that I'm like, oh,
he's sweet and understanding.
But also, if you're saying thisto protect your own, now it
feels slightly manipulative.
So I think that that's justsomething that made me.
Going back to the characters,that made me think about.
Am I going to dislike him?
(32:29):
Am I going to start to like, belike is this going to be like a
team Jamie or a team Frankthing?
As we get more into the story,it actually doesn't sound.
It sounds like that's thedebate for her, yeah, but as a
reader, it feels like you'regoing to be spending time with
Jamie.
So are you really going to beeven like?
Speaker 1 (32:46):
is there, even like a team.
We are and it's funny, though,because I feel like we're so in
her point of view, although weall love Jamie it it her
concerns are valid.
Like she's married this man.
He's a great man.
There's nothing wrong with him.
Maybe he made some mistakes,maybe he didn't, I can't
remember, but that's you know.
It wouldn't work otherwise,right?
So if you're writing a storythat has a love triangle like
(33:09):
this, this is where love storyor love triangles break down, or
when they become cheesy, whenit's like obviously she's not
going to choose that guy.
He sucks, yes, right, or?
Speaker 2 (33:17):
when they become cheesy, when it's like obviously
she's not going to choose thatguy, he sucks, yes, right, and
then, well, I think this is so.
The example that I always thinkabout is Sweet Home, alabama.
I don't know if you know thatmovie.
So I love that movie and thatis a tough choice.
Because Dreamy McDreamerson,who is the the other guy, right
that she's going to marry in thebeginning, he's a good guy.
You don't want him to be hurt,right, like, if she ends up with
(33:41):
him it will be good, but herheart is just with Jake, right,
yeah, so, but like, even likehis response when she doesn't
sign the divorce papers at theaisle just shows, like, even
reinforces like that he's evensuch a good guy.
So I think actually, what wasreally important at the end of
that movie was in the credits.
They show that he gets, hefinds love and gets engaged with
(34:03):
someone else.
I actually think if they didn'tinclude that in the credits, it
would have been reallydifficult to swallow.
Yeah, because you don't wanthim to end up.
So I'd be interested, you knowand I'll finish outlander now
that I've started it I'll beinterested to see.
Do you ever feel like, arethere going to be any big
unresolved reasons why sheshouldn't pick Frank.
(34:24):
It feels like immediately fromthe beginning.
I'm like there has to besomething that's going to have
to tip the scale towards Jamie.
I'm assuming that's who shegoes with.
Speaker 1 (34:34):
Well yeah.
So if you don't want to hear aspoiler, mute the podcast now.
But essentially, there ismultiple times throughout the
story where it's like you choosewhat you want to do Claire, Do
you want to try to get home, Doyou want to stay here with me?
And at some point there becomesa decision that when she makes
it, she realizes because of this, Frank probably won't be born.
(34:56):
So there's no opportunity forwell assuming assuming she's
right.
That means there's noopportunity for us to get that
feeling at the end of like oh,at least he found a bride and
he's all happy, Right, it's likehe didn't, maybe doesn't even
exist anymore.
Speaker 2 (35:13):
But that's a bigger.
Speaker 1 (35:18):
I mean like, even like when she stays he doesn't
get to.
Well, there's a decision thatshe would have had to make that
if she made it, probably he'snot gonna.
Because she, because she knowsthe history, because she's been
with frank and he knows abouthis ancestor, jack randall, and
so she realizes, because of theway things are playing out in
the 1800s, I don't think thatwe're going to get to the point
where frank is born oh, that isheavy, because see I was getting
(35:39):
.
Speaker 2 (35:39):
I get full body if she stays in the past, then he
still has a chance at being born, but it's like, no, that's over
, that's, that's heavy which ina way like it.
Speaker 1 (35:51):
It sucks for frank right, but also it's kind of
like, okay, well, at least he'snot devastated and never getting
his bride back.
I don't know which is worse,but I don't know, that's yeah,
that's yeah that's a wholeconversation for another day.
Speaker 2 (36:04):
That's more I thought it was going to be like, he can
still get his chance atsurviving, at being at existing
yeah, that's interesting.
Speaker 1 (36:10):
Yeah, we'll see.
That's a conversation foranother day, that's another
question.
Speaker 2 (36:13):
Okay, so we'll move on to the fifth question, which
deals with setting and thequestions where and when does
the story take place?
Obviously before it beinghistorical.
Speaker 1 (36:21):
Yep, so in the past we're in the 18th century, we're
in Scotland.
In the present we're in the20th century in Scotland as well
.
So past I mean passed by, as inwe're with Jamie.
That becomes Claire's presenttimeline, which makes it
confusing Right 18th centurywith Jamie 20th century with
Frank.
Speaker 2 (36:39):
I think it's really good that you decipher that,
because when you're writing, thepast can become the present and
it should still be the present.
Now you just have changed wherewe're set right um time travel
when you do that.
That's important it's hard yeah, yeah, okay, and obviously I'm
assuming culture is going tocome more into the story.
Like you can even see, it justFrank's nerding out about
(37:00):
history right from the beginningand all the talk about myths
and the war aspects.
All of that's going to comeinto play in the story.
Speaker 1 (37:12):
the 20th century women are allowed to do more
things, like Claire was a nurseand she you know, whatever.
And then she goes back in timeand it's like I own my woman.
So she deals with all kinds ofdifferent issues, and then
there's a war, you know so.
Speaker 2 (37:26):
That's like a whole nother layer too, if she stays
there's way more layers, yeah,so it's really cool.
Speaker 1 (37:31):
The historical element really allows for that,
which is one of the fun parts ofthe story.
Speaker 2 (37:35):
Okay, and I think that's going to feed into the
last two questions dealing withcore emotion and stakes as well,
particularly the stakesquestion.
I'm going to group themtogether.
Speaker 1 (37:43):
Yeah, we talked about emotion already.
Speaker 2 (37:45):
Yeah, so emotion how should they feel about what's
happening?
Stakes why should we care aboutwhat happens next?
Or what are the stakes and whyshould we care about what
happens next?
Speaker 1 (37:54):
Yeah, so, emotion wise, it's kind of like we're
concerned.
We want to know what's going tohappen with Claire and Frank.
We hope that she gets what shewants and they rekindle their
relationship, blah, blah blah.
Curiosity wise, I'm thinking amI really curious about anything
in particular?
I'm more concerned than I amcurious, I think, which is fine.
And then why should we careabout what happens next?
Well, we know that.
(38:14):
Um again, we have the backcover copy as context, so we can
infer that at some point soonshe's going to be traveling back
in time.
So we have that to contend with.
And we also, frank, dropped abomb on us at the end of the
last chapter, the first chapter,that's why I'm turning the page
.
Yeah that bomb yeah so combineall that and you've got a
winning recipe specifically withthe slow burn of that bomb.
Speaker 2 (38:38):
Yeah, because it's like she like responds and then
she internalizes it.
Speaker 1 (38:42):
Yeah yeah, it's a good, good little bomb there,
but so okay.
So a lot of good things workingto tell us what kind of book
we're in for.
There's a lot to unpack thereand something.
This is the thing I saved totell you.
Today.
I found this article with theauthor and because I was looking
up, I'm like okay, becauseagain it's been a while since
I've read this.
So I was thinking about genreand I'm like what is the climax?
(39:05):
Because that usually helps medecide on genre.
And I found this article Ithink it's on her website and
she says my first book,outlander, is shaped like three
overlapping triangles.
The action rises naturallytoward three climaxes Claire's
decision at Craig Nodoon to stayin the past.
Claire's rescue of Jamie fromWentworth, which is a prison,
(39:26):
and her saving his soul at theAbbey.
So I thought that was reallycool to think about, how she
thought it's almost like how youtalk about the three levels of
stakes a lot, which is like wehave the life and death stakes
of saving him from Wentworthdeciding to stay in the past and
give up that future with Frank.
That's more of the love.
(39:46):
And then saving his soul islove and it's also like the more
.
It's more than that.
So.
Speaker 2 (39:52):
I love that and also I'm assuming there's probably
the main genre.
This would actually beinteresting to look at.
So sometimes when you haveequally weighted psychological,
professional and physical stakes, it feels like OK, this is
really more of a worldview story.
And then you have to have eachof your big external moments
need their climax right Now.
Subplots need their fullthree-act structure, or
(40:15):
beginning middle end, if youdon't want to say three acts, so
subplots also need to havetheir climax right.
So it's interesting to see ifyou were to analyze this, like
at the end of it, with each ofthose climactic moments.
Do they feel like they're asubplots climax or do they feel
like they're equally weightedclimaxes?
Speaker 1 (40:34):
and if they're equally weighted, climaxes is
worldview the content genre Idon't think worldview is,
because I think when you read itand someday you'll let us know
how you feel about this when youwatch?
it or read it, you do feel likeit's a love story.
I think when you're in the pastand there's war stuff,
obviously that's like a big uhhurdle that they have to get
over to have their love story.
(40:55):
So I would say my gut says no,I don't think they're evenly
weighted.
I think it's very significant,obviously, that she saves him
from danger and things like that, but it's at the end.
There's, you know, parts wherehe's uh again spoiler, you want
to mute me but there's parts atthe end where he's injured but
he's recovering and he's justlike I have so much trauma from
(41:15):
all that's happened to me overthe course of the story you
should just leave.
So he gives her options toleave and she stays.
But to me I see those likethose are the romance.
Speaker 2 (41:25):
You know she's choosing him yeah, that yeah,
and it seems like it would go inthat I would say that you're
probably onto it.
Based on just how you'vedescribed things, I think there
would be a hierarchy ofimportance in these moments and
that, regardless, they're alldovetailing.
So with each one, they're alldovetailing into the love story,
which, again, is the mark of agreat story.
You need subplots to dovetailinto the main story.
You need a subplot to dovetailinto the main story.
Speaker 1 (41:47):
But I thought you would love hearing that, because
who doesn't love a behind thescenes of a process?
And I could just envision thosethree triangles and like the
ups and the downs and he has tobe okay at this scenario to get
into this scenario, and thenthey have to fall in love and
whatever.
So it was really cool yeah.
Speaker 2 (42:02):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (42:02):
So we're going to get into the scene structure part,
which is probably whateveryone's been waiting for,
because it is kind ofchallenging so I'm.
I'm gonna give us the lay of theland really quick, uh, and then
we can talk about the details.
So abigail and I landed on.
There's two scenes and thefirst part goes from the very.
The first scene goes from thevery first sentence to this line
(42:24):
that I'm going to find, I think, where she says the curse word.
She says Jesus H, roosevelt,christ, I said, and drop the
sugar, lump neatly into Frank'scoffee.
So we think that's where thefirst scene ends.
I did not, uh, parse out theword count, but it feels like a
larger part of the chapter muchlarger and there's a reason for
that.
So if we go back and if you'reflipping through the book, if we
(42:46):
go back through to thebeginning of the chapter,
there's a part where, in thevery beginning, claire's like
walking downstairs.
She says I met Miss Baird inthe hall on my way out.
So we're in the present.
And then there's a part whereshortly after that, so it's
within like the first fourparagraphs, she shifts into
(43:07):
backstory or like a kind of aflashback.
So it's of that morning whenthey were in bed and Mrs Baird
was vacuuming outside becauseshe doesn't want to like hear
bed spring squeak and thingslike that.
And then there's a whole lotthat unfolds about basically how
we got to this point of Claireon her way out of the bed and
breakfast to go meet Frank,claire on her way out of the bed
(43:29):
and breakfast to go meet Frank.
So I could see where and this iswhere we were initially
confused we're like well, arethere three scenes?
And kind of yes, kind of no.
So kind of the flashback equalsits own scene.
However, it's a scene.
We call it a beat.
So it's like a beat with itsown structure within that first
scene.
Okay, so the first scene.
Do you want to walk us throughthe commandments of this?
Speaker 2 (43:49):
yeah, yeah, all right , so quickly.
What are the commandments?
Five commandments ofstorytelling come from story
grid.
Inciting incident is anunexpected disturbance that
either creates the goal for thescene right or it changes the
way the character needs to andchanges the approach the
character needs to.
It changes the approach thecharacter needs to take in order
(44:10):
to achieve their goal.
The turning point is the peak Ilike to call it the peak
conflict, or it's like the peakprogressive complication, so the
main conflict of the scenethat's going to thrust the main
character into a crisis decision.
The crisis decision is a bestbet choice or a conciliable
goods decision, which is aninverse of a best bet choice.
The crisis decision is abest-fed choice or a conciliable
goods decision, which is aninverse of a best-fed choice.
(44:30):
So this is the dilemma thecharacter faces.
This is the main anchor of ascene, because this is what
defines how a character acts andmoves forward, which will
advance the plot and help thecharacter right.
The climax is the direct actionthat the character takes based
on their crisis, and theresolution are the events that
(44:51):
happen afterwards and show uswhere the character lands
externally and internally, orliterally and psychologically.
So those are what thecommandments are For this first
one.
It's funny because I always sayfor whatever reason, I
understand the inciting incident, but when it comes to very
layered scenes like this, I havea hard time pulling out the
(45:11):
inciting incident.
Speaker 1 (45:12):
I'm sure Savannah will have to To be fair.
Speaker 2 (45:14):
This one's hard?
Yeah, I think that you have,but even in general I'm like why
do I have a hard time landing?
Speaker 1 (45:19):
on the inciting incident.
Speaker 2 (45:20):
I think the big thing I'm always trying to think
about is how do we connecteverything to the same overall
arc in the scene, right?
So you have to start with yourcharacter's goal.
If the goal's not there, it'swhat's going to be created.
So the goal for this firstscene is really meeting up with
Frank.
Right, it's like she wants tomeet up with Frank.
Speaker 1 (45:39):
I'm going to chime in and read what it says so that
people can see what thistranslates to.
So there's a line that says Imet Miss Baird in the front hall
on my way out, and then laterit says in dialogue I'm just
going down to the village tomeet Frank, We'll be back for
tea.
Speaker 2 (45:55):
So simple, very simple goal, but it's there,
very simple, right, and youdon't need a huge goal.
Sometimes, right, the incitingincidents I said is when she
bumps into Frank, because shedidn't expect to bump into him
in where she does, and this wasa tricky one.
So I would say, out of the, outof the commitments that I'm
gonna propose, that one was thehardest for me yeah, and I think
(46:19):
so.
Speaker 1 (46:19):
There's a couple things we'll say about the scene
.
One of them is like is that thestrongest?
Probably not.
Also, the stakes in this sceneare really low.
We'll get to that in a second,but what notice at this point,
if you're following along in thetext, we have skipped that
whole flashback.
So we're going to come back tothat in part of the, the setup,
the exposition, the, you know,getting us ready for the
(46:40):
conflict.
So I agree with abigail it'sit's not that she met frank.
She was expecting to run intofrank at some point, so it it's
not that she did, it's how andwhen she did it that we think
counts as that inciting incident, because now that she's met him
what are they going to do?
Speaker 2 (46:58):
Yeah.
So the turning point.
When I was talking to Savannah,I had two options.
I'm going to tell you the one Iside with as well as the one
that I was thinking about.
So I said, okay, we mentionedearlier, like the blood on the
doorstep is loud.
So I'm like, oh well, thatcould be a turning point because
Frank, in his like nerding outabout this, immediately right
Runs off and there is blood hereand she actually has some
(47:18):
contemplation about, like ifthere's a maniac around killing
people, I don't know how I feelabout being left alone, right?
So there is that potential ofsending her into a crisis of do
I follow him or not?
The other one is when Frankdecides to have Sherry with
Bainbridge and she decides tostay behind.
I actually side with the latterof those when Frank decides to
(47:41):
have Sherry with Bainbridge, andthe reason for that is because
the blonde part leads intoimportant context.
Again, she's showing this onthe page through context, which
is why it's valuable.
That leads to the discussionabout myths and why myths are so
important, and that sets us upto have our supernatural dial
turned up when Frank sees whathe thinks could be a ghost
(48:03):
because of the not movingclothes, right so, and she kind
of even like jokes around withhim about the ghost until he
says right about the clothes.
And that's the second scene.
Yeah, we'll get there,ultimately I went with Frank
decides to have Sherry withBainbridge, you know, notice
that that crisis, that turningpoint that lends her to the
crisis of do I go and join himor not, actually warrants the
(48:26):
backstory.
That works as its own potentialscene, but I would call it a
feat, so I I would leave itthere because that, ultimately,
what's interesting is both ofthose, if you choose either one,
both.
Both of the climaxes are shestays behind, but in different
ways, and the resolution isgoing to be pretty quick because
(48:46):
she actually ends with more ofthat backstory than returning to
where she is.
So the she decides to staybehind.
She's just going to chill outat home or chill out at miss
baird's right.
Speaker 1 (48:56):
So so okay.
So we have kind of a low stakessituation and, however, given
the context, like abigail said,her goal and frank's goal is to
spend time together.
So by her deciding that she'snot going to partake in this
discussion of history and localmyths and she's going to go back
to the room alone, it's notgetting her what she wants.
(49:17):
Necessarily.
She would just rather be alonethan deal with what's going to
happen at the street.
Speaker 2 (49:21):
Yeah, and I think that that's the big part of it,
right, because the backstoryreveals that I don't think OK.
So this is, this is what'stricky.
She uses colorful language,right, and she uses it like not
regularly, it's just because sheburns her hands, is what she
explains, and Bainbridge, likesuper, judges her about it To
(49:42):
the point where they have toexplain why she has colorful
language.
Because she was pullingshrapnel out of men in the war.
So she picked up this languagelike and if you're talking about
roles of women back then and in20th century, this is all
playing into context, right?
Yeah, so this is kind ofsetting this up.
Now what I think is interestingabout this decision do I go
(50:05):
with bainbridge or not?
Like he doesn't even seem likehe's like this, like terrible
guy and and it doesn't reallynecessarily feel like Frank is
totally being disloyal to her bygoing with Bainbridge.
But at the same time, like inthe backstory, it's kind of like
why are you feeling like youhave to explain something about
your wife versus either justlike joke along with it or
(50:27):
defend it like it she was switch?
Speaker 1 (50:31):
under the rug of the love triangle, because when
she's with jamie it's not likethat.
Speaker 2 (50:35):
So that's a big difference culturally and within
the two relationships, which isreally interesting so that's
when it's like you know, and shedoesn't even walk out seeming
like she's like in our marriage,like I feel like you you didn
out.
Seeming like she's like in ourmarriage, like I feel like you
didn't defend me, like she's notcommunicating that through us,
through interiority, so we don'tget the sense of like this was
tremendously painful to her, ifanything.
(50:57):
Like she's very steadfast inher confidence in herself and
drops the sugar in those, likethe sugar cube in her tea.
Like I love that last line,right, she's very you can tell
like she's a strong world woman,right.
But it's interesting to gothere because when we do talk
about is there friction in themarriage, that is the moment
that I think creates it.
Speaker 1 (51:22):
Yeah, and it leads kind of to what's coming next,
which we'll talk about.
But let's go back to thatbackstory piece a little bit,
because there's we like talkabout beats we've done episodes
on this before but it'sbasically like how, what are the
sections that are moving thescene forward?
So there's a part where we goback to that morning and we hear
about miss bane, mrs bairdvacuuming outside their door
when they're, you know, kind ofhaving a private moment, and you
(51:43):
can infer that there's astructure there.
So it's a little bit longer ofa flashback than you know.
Just a couple sentences ofcontext, and because it's longer
, we need that structure inthere to show us what.
You know, what was the conflictthat morning, what was the
decision that they made, and itkeeps it interesting.
So it's not just like this iswhat happened and it's all
(52:05):
boring information.
It's like there was conflict,there was flirting, there was
good stuff, like this is whathappened and it's all boring
information.
It's like there was conflict,there was flirting, there was
good stuff too.
Um, so I think within, ifyou're looking at the scene and
we don't have to go throughevery piece but when you're
looking at it, just say what'sgoing on in these pieces and how
did the author make itinteresting?
Because there is a lot ofinformation and the stakes are
low.
So that's what really interestsme is I'm like, yeah, there's a
(52:28):
lot of stuff, but I wasn't madat any of it this whole time.
Speaker 2 (52:31):
Right, so it worked.
I found it very challenging toanalyze, yeah.
Speaker 1 (52:37):
But it works.
Yeah, exactly, okay, so let'sgo to scene two and let me read
this line that's going to kindof give us context.
So this is where we're gettingthe goal.
And right after that, Jesus HRoosevelt, Christ line.
It says after a peaceful andnot unpleasant sit with Miss
Baird, I made my way upstairs toready myself before Frank came
(52:59):
home.
So that's our goal.
Very simple again.
Speaker 2 (53:02):
Yep, yep, I'm going to get ready, right.
Yep, and this one's a littlebit easier for me, I feel like
when breaking it down, becauseit did feel like not in your
face stakes and that they'reconfronting this right now, but
it's going to deal with theghost-like appearance man
watching Claire from outside.
(53:22):
Yeah so in him seeing this, theturning point is going to be the
question about being infidelity, right, did she ever have an
affair?
So he asked her they're havingactually a very flirty, intimate
moment, right.
And he asked her if she knewany Scottish men when she was a
(53:43):
nurse.
And then he proposes you know,if you ever ever had anything,
if you ever had an affair, Iwould understand, right.
So that kind of sends her intothis crisis of do I defend
myself or not?
Speaker 1 (53:56):
yeah, it's more like how is she going to respond?
Speaker 2 (53:58):
right, right.
So it's like I think that andthe climax is that she's very
offended, right, yeah, and sheimmediately explains, like, like
questions, challenges him.
How could you even ask me that?
Yeah, right, because obviouslyto even ask the question
suggests that there areinsecurities or trust issues,
right, and the resolution isthat they actually like I guess
(54:21):
I'm going to emphasize that evenin that climax, when she's like
he goes to touch her to comforther and she says don't touch me
, right, like she's that, likehe goes to touch her for to
comfort her, and she says don'ttouch me, right, like she's that
upset, and then the resolutionhe basically says to her you
know, I would love you, nomatter what, and then they kind
of rekindle their moment.
But it's later that she thinksthe last, that big wham, last
(54:45):
thought of I did.
I answered that I of courseneed did not have this flaming
affair, but what does that meanabout him?
Speaker 1 (54:53):
yep, and I think there's even a slightly
different way we could look atthat.
As you're saying that, I'm likeyes, and so I think it could
also be.
There's a part where frankbasically says, like can you
forgive me for upsetting youthis badly?
And then she has to decide andit's not very literal on the
page, neither of these optionsare but she basically has to
decide is she going to or not?
She does, and then we have thatbomb of like well, did he?
(55:17):
And so this is a question Isthat where you side more?
I'm not sure.
I would say, just for the sakeof being devil's advocate, I
will say yes.
Speaker 2 (55:28):
I think either way, though, like the same place.
Either way, it's not wrong.
Speaker 1 (55:30):
We're getting the same place, but someone today
asked me a question about crisismoments not being literal on
the page, and I think this is agreat example because we can
understand it's.
How is she going to respondeither way, and she's not
sitting there in bed with herhands on her hips going.
Should I react poorly or shouldI be okay with this?
Or should I forgive him or not?
Right, we can infer what'sgoing on because of all the
(55:53):
context.
Speaker 2 (55:54):
That's so interesting .
So I have a client that I'mworking with too, and he asked
when it comes to the crisisquestion, do you need to have a
should I type of question?
And I'm like, when you'reoutlining or when you're looking
at this as a writer, you needto write that down.
Yes, like it doesn'tnecessarily have to be phrased
with the word should, but itshould be a literal question
that like, even when I do theincident, outline, what, why?
(56:16):
Like in the what I underline,like on its own thing, here's
the crisis, and I underline itbecause that is the point of
your scene right.
Speaker 1 (56:24):
I think if you're not literal in the outlining or
drafting phase, you risk missingit and then your draft is going
to break down.
So, when in doubt, be literaland then prove yourself that you
can.
Speaker 2 (56:33):
You don't need to write it and editing yeah.
Right, and there will be caseswhere it works for you to write
it literally.
But if you are cookie cutteringit in the actual prose, that
will become really flat.
Speaker 1 (56:45):
Yeah, another example that is tends to kind of click
in people's brain is if you'rein the middle of an action scene
and you're fighting, you're notgoing to sit on a battlefield
and go.
Should I go left and, like,stab those people?
Or should I go right and stabthose people Right, like you're?
You're just going to react.
However, if we don't understandwhat the the stakes are or what
(57:06):
that context is for thatdecision, then it's not going to
work.
So we need the stakes and thecontext built in before either a
literal or inferred crisis.
So I think that's a goodexample of it.
But that brings us to the endof chapter one.
So again, there's a whole lotof stuff in there, but we think
it's two scenes with, in thatfirst scene of stuff in there,
(57:30):
right, but we think it's twoscenes with, in that first scene
, a lot of context, setup,exposition, backstory in a way
that works and yeah, we, and ifyou've read it, if you read the
whole novel before, likesavannah, I would challenge you
to all that material that ishappening around the structure.
Speaker 2 (57:42):
Ask yourself, go back to those first seven chapter
questions and ask yourself whichone of these is it benefiting
and how is it creating anexpectation because of how it's
benefiting, because I thinkthat's a good tool to use too
when you're analyzing.
Do I have strong first pages?
Go through those questions andask yourself all these extra
details, are we having addedweight?
Or are the details anddescriptions or interiorities
(58:05):
serving one of the sevenquestions?
The purposes?
Speaker 1 (58:08):
of those seven elements.
A bad example is if in thisfirst chapter and first scene we
had Frank go into like adiatribe about the war, it
doesn't really matter right now.
We know that there was a warback in his ancestor's time.
We don't need to know more thanthat.
So you can just kind of saylike first, what is the present
(58:29):
prompting?
So are there moments in thepresent story that's prompting
the window for backstory orexposition to come through?
And then also, like Abigailsaid, what point is it serving?
And if you can't find a goodanswer to either of those, you
probably don't need it.
That's right, yeah, so we'revery interested to hear what you
guys think of this.
If you agree, if you can see itbetter now that we broke it
(58:51):
down, if you disagree, we'rehappy to hear that as well, so
let us know.
Speaker 2 (58:54):
Yeah, and thanks again, savannah, for being here.
Thank you to all our listenerswho are here.
We love doing these firstchapters.
They challenge us in big waysas well, and I can't wait to
bring more material to you soon.
Speaker 1 (59:17):
So that's it for today's episode.
As always, thank you so muchfor tuning in and for showing
your support.
If you want to check out any ofthe links I mentioned in this
episode, you can find them inthe show notes listed in the
description of each episodeinside your podcast player or at
savannahgilbocom forward slashpodcast.
If you're an Apple user, I'dreally appreciate it if you took
a few seconds to leave a ratingand a review.
Your ratings and reviews tellApple that this is a podcast
(59:38):
that's worth listening to and,in turn, your reviews will help
this podcast get in front ofmore fiction writers just like
you.
And while you're there, goahead and hit that follow button
, because there's going to beanother brand new episode next
week, full of actionable tips,tools and strategies to help you
become a better writer.
So I'll see you next week anduntil then, happy writing.
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