February 4, 2025 • 44 mins
Chronic illness teaches you about pain, loss, and resilience. Find out why this can make you a better storyteller.
Writing a novel can feel impossible when managing a chronic illness. Symptoms, brain fog, and advice that doesn't fit your life can make you wonder if you'll ever finish your story. But your experience with chronic illness also gives you a rare edge that empowers you to connect with readers on a much deeper level.
That's why I'm so excited to introduce you to Sandra Postma. She's a certified book coach who works with writers facing chronic illnesses. Sandra brings such warmth and kindness to this conversation, shaped by her own 20-year journey with chronic illness and writing.
In this episode, Sandra and I talk about turning your chronic illness into your secret weapon for storytelling, finding writing strategies that honor your body, and giving yourself permission to write in a way that works for you.
Here’s what we cover:
[04:55] The top three challenges writers with chronic illnesses face and why traditional writing advice doesn't always work.
[14:28] How to create a writing routine that’s right for you and your body, even if it breaks a few common rules.
[16:13] Why your chronic illness can be the key to connecting with your readers on a raw, emotional level.
[27:30] Understanding the difference between ‘clean pain’ and ‘dirty pain’ and how this writing mindset shift supports you when things get tough.
[33:01] Why it’s okay for your writing journey to take as long as it needs—and how to make peace with your pace.
Whether you're starting your first draft or deep into your novel, this conversation will help you find your own path to storytelling—one that pays tribute to your creativity and well-being.
🔗 Links mentioned in this episode:
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Being ill is more than a full-time job, because
it's constantly there and youconstantly have to remind
yourself of it, but you canstill be so many things.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
In my mind, and I'm sure in your mind, there's no
reason why that mom of three canwrite a book and you can't
someone who has a chronicillness, right?
It's just learning how to dealwith whatever your situation is
and learning strategies bothmental, physical, practical,
whatever to still accomplishyour dreams.
Welcome to the Fiction WritingMade Easy podcast.
(00:33):
My name is Savannah Gilbo andI'm here to help you write a
story that works.
I want to prove to you thatwriting a novel doesn't have to
be overwhelming, so each week,I'll bring you a brand new
episode with simple, actionableand step-by-step strategies that
you can implement in yourwriting right away.
So whether you're brand new towriting or more of a seasoned
author looking to improve yourcraft, this podcast is for you.
(00:54):
So pick up a pen and let's getstarted.
In today's episode, I'm chattingwith fellow book coach, sandra
Postma, about how to write whenyou have a chronic illness, and
I wanted to have Sandra on theshow because her message and the
way she approaches working with, and not against having a
chronic illness is so important.
(01:15):
So, yes, sandra is a book coachwho specializes in working with
writers who are facing healthchallenges, and she's also a
woman with multiple chronicillnesses herself, so she really
knows what it's like to faceand deal with the physical,
mental and she's also a womanwith multiple chronic illnesses
herself, so she really knowswhat it's like to face and deal
with the physical, mental andemotional challenges that come
with having a chronic illness.
And we're going to talk aboutall of that and more in this
episode.
Plus, you'll hear Sandra's takeon what she calls the
(01:38):
superpower that comes withwriting when you have a chronic
illness on a daily basis.
So I won't make you wait anylonger, let's dive right into my
conversation with Sandra Postma.
Hi, sandra, welcome to theFiction Writing Made Easy
podcast.
I'm so excited to have you heretoday.
Speaker 1 (01:56):
Hi Savannah, Thank you so much for having me on.
Speaker 2 (01:59):
Yes, and I gave you a little introduction already in
the episode.
But can you, in your own words,just introduce yourself to my
audience?
Let us know who you are, whatyou do and things like that.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (02:09):
So, hi everyone, I'm Samana Pusma and I am a
certified book coach and mentorto people facing health
challenges in their daily life.
So I help writers who aredealing with symptoms on a daily
basis and I help them navigatethat and I help them write the
best books that they possiblycan.
Speaker 2 (02:28):
Love it and do you work with writers of all genres?
Speaker 1 (02:31):
Basically.
Yeah, I read widely myself.
So yes, I have worked withwriters from all sorts of genres
.
Speaker 2 (02:41):
That's great, and so I love that you specialize in
working with writers who arefacing chronic illnesses or
maybe have a family member orsomeone they have to care for
with a chronic illness.
Why did you choose tospecialize in this niche?
Speaker 1 (02:55):
Good question, because I am chronically ill and
I have been for over 20 yearsnow and so it's just a huge part
of of who I am.
And you know, for a very longtime it was my sole identity was
Sandra Prada Keel person andthat was it, and it's taken me a
(03:18):
long time to kind of come andsee that I am more than that,
and being a book coach has beenan incredible importance in that
transition for me, and I wantthat same thing for the writers
that I work with, because somany writers who deal with
chronic illness face certainchallenges that people who don't
(03:40):
have illnesses don't do.
So it's like very small things,like writing habits and, you
know, representation in stories,it's kind of all those.
There may seem small things,but they add up massively right,
and I felt that myself as areader, as a writer.
(04:00):
So when I became a book coach,it was quite apparent that I had
a skill that I could use tohelp other people, and so it was
quite natural to kind of go inthat way, and it's been so
incredibly fulfilling that Ijust made it my whole thing.
Speaker 2 (04:19):
Yeah, I love it Now.
It's part of your personalityand part of your thing.
Speaker 1 (04:23):
Basically yes.
Speaker 2 (04:24):
I love that so much and it's your, you know.
I think you're touching onsomething that's really
important, which is that formost of us, writing is
challenging for various reasons.
Right Like, we usually come tothe page, we don't know how to
write a book, but we Google allthe things and we try and we
stumble around, and so it's likepeople with chronic illness who
are writing still have all ofthose challenges.
(04:45):
And then there's otherchallenges on top of that that
are unique to you know someonewho has a chronic illness.
So if you were to kind of boildown, like what are I don't know
, three to five of the mainchallenges that people who have
chronic illnesses face asthey're trying to write a novel,
on top of the typical thingsthat we normally struggle with
(05:05):
as writers, I think the mainthing is symptoms.
Speaker 1 (05:10):
It means that you really want to write, maybe you
have the time to write, but youhave brain fog, you're too tired
, you have too much pain, youhave a fever, and this is really
endless.
That's one one of the things,so you can't write when you want
to.
One of the things that isreally inherent with with people
who are chronically ill is lowself-esteem, and that is
(05:32):
something that every time yousit behind the laptop and you
are able to actually sit downand you immediately go oh but is
my voice worth hearing?
Because you know when?
Because when you are ill, itcomes with so much mental,
emotional baggage, and everywriter has their own cross to
bear.
I have my own that have nothingto do with being chronically
(05:53):
ill.
Busy mums, single parents,carers, full-time workers
everyone has their own thingthat they bring to their writing
habits, so to speak.
And when you're chronically ill,the challenge really is to find
the energy, to find the time,and momentum is a huge issue as
well, because this is theproblem with chronic illness it
(06:15):
fluctuates so much that you wakeup and you don't know whether
or not you were able to writeand you might be in a really
good flow, like for two weeks'relike oh, I'm really getting
into it.
I'm feeling so good these twoweeks and I'm, you know,
symptoms are, you know, kind ofunder control and I'm doing so
well, and then suddenlysomething happens and you're
back on, you know all this over,back in bed, and it takes
(06:38):
another period to get throughthat.
And then you get back to yourstory and like, oh, my
momentum's gone.
Speaker 2 (06:43):
Yeah, and.
Speaker 1 (06:44):
I have to get back to it.
Speaker 2 (06:45):
From what you're saying too, it sounds like, you
know, sometimes you wake up andyou might feel physically well,
but mentally maybe you're notquite there that day, or it's
the opposite, where you feelphysically ill but mentally you
really want to write and youreally want to show up and you
can't.
So it's almost like the starshave to really align and you
have to get the checkbox in bothcolumns to be able to sit down
(07:07):
and write, which is tough,absolutely true it is.
Speaker 1 (07:10):
It is very tough and I think you know we sometimes
underestimate, I think, how muchwriting is a mental game, right
, and you know, I think forevery writer, we always feel
like you know, our skills aren'tgood enough.
Like one day we're like, oh, Ijust wrote crap, and you know
our skills aren't good enough.
Like one day we're like, oh, Ijust wrote crap.
And I think we all deal withthat.
And so it is very true that youcan wake up one day and be
physically like, oh, yeah, Iactually feel good today.
(07:32):
And then you're like, oh, butI'm not in a good space, I feel
really low about who I am andwhat I, you know, bring to the
story and I don't believe in mystory today.
And then another day, anotherday, yeah, you're just so.
And this, this is the one thathappens most often is that you
are absolutely willing and andkeen to write and then your body
(07:52):
said no, you need to rest, yougo, you need to go and sit on
the sofa.
Because you know I think alsoon the resume how exhausting
writing itself is for the brain,for the body.
It's hugely exhausting and itcan be so, so frustrating that
the one thing that you love todo, which is to write, is then
(08:12):
taken away from you because ofyour mental, something you can't
control.
Speaker 2 (08:17):
Oh, that is a thing, yeah, and that's really
frustrating because, you know, Ithink a lot of us like to think
we're in control or feel likewe're in control, and when it's
kind of your own body that'smaking you feel like you're not
in control of your own agency,that's really, really
challenging.
So, definitely like physicalchallenges, mental challenges,
emotional challenges on top of athing that's already
(08:40):
challenging to do.
Speaker 1 (08:42):
Very true, yeah, and that that makes it so.
It makes it a unique challengeto write when you are, when you
have a chronic illness, and it'sreally about committing to like
.
This is what I want to do, andthat's quite, you know, an easy
thing, because when you'rechronically ill, you have such
often, when you have such asmall life.
(09:02):
You know, I spend lots of mytime at home because I'm not
physically well enough to go out, I'm not mentally well enough
to go out, but I can sit downwith a notebook or with my phone
and write.
And I hear it often from clientswhen they come to me.
They're like oh, it was my wayout, writing was my way out
(09:23):
Can't be normally employed, myway out, writing was my way out.
Can't be normally employed, Ican't be, you know, being the
full-time worker that I reallywish I could be, but what I can
do is write stories, right, andthen it gets really, really
frustrating when actually thatnot that simple, yeah, um, and
(09:44):
it's a wonderful thing that wedo have writing to express
ourselves and you know to dealwith, you know the things that
we deal with when you'rechronically ill, when there's no
hope, basically, because it'schronic for a reason.
There's no cure, there's notreatment, but there is this
thing that that keeps you going,and that's just incredible.
Speaker 2 (10:05):
Yeah, that's the power of writing stories, right,
the power of fiction, why welove it.
And something you just saidthat's really interesting is
like you talked about howsometimes the world can feel
small when you're chronicallyill.
Sometimes you feel you aresometimes really trapped inside
the house or you're, you knowyou just it's like you want to
connect with the outside world,you want things to feel bigger
(10:27):
than they are, and so that'swhat fiction can do for us.
And I know that part of whatyou've talked about before is
like writers with chronicillnesses, we want to be seen,
or they want to be seen, and Ithink writers in general, we
want to feel seen, we want tofeel understood.
And for someone with a chronicillness you talked earlier about
(10:47):
, like you want to see morecharacters represented to help
you feel seen and to help youfeel like you're part of the
world too.
Do you want to talk about that?
A?
Speaker 1 (10:56):
little.
Yeah, I think once I one of thethings that I really realized
as I was trading as a coach wasreally how underrepresented I
was.
You know, and especially we seeso many amazing, you know,
marginalized groups, rightly belike a fellow I exist.
Speaker 2 (11:16):
I exist.
Speaker 1 (11:18):
And yeah, and I was watching it, I was feeling like,
oh, I'd recognize this, I canrelate to this in my own way.
I was kind of feeling like, oh,I'd recognize this, I can relate
to this in my own way.
And when I started to really diginto that, I kind of see like,
oh, my goodness, when I wasyounger and I got ill, there was
no book to look at to help me,there was no movie that could
kind of make me feel seen andthat I could relate to as a
(11:41):
teenager dealing with this hugelife-changing thing.
I was really just left on my own, teenager, dealing with this
huge life-changing thing.
I was really just left on myown to deal with this and I
didn't realize the incredibleimpact of that until a few years
ago.
And then, because it made mesee how important stories are,
yeah, you know, how big.
They help and heal and oh, justhow amazing it is to feel seen
(12:06):
and to be seen and to berepresented, also when it comes
to empathy from other people,right, and you know, when I
realized that it was really oneof the things that drew me to
coaching writers like myself isI want you to feel seen, yeah,
and not just in your stories,but just by your coach as well,
(12:27):
because many of my clients don'tnecessarily write about people
with chronic illness, but italways comes back Right.
Speaker 2 (12:34):
One way or another.
Speaker 1 (12:35):
And the same as in my stories.
Some of them do include peoplewith an illness or a disability,
but others don't.
Yeah, but it always comes back,you know, through emotions or
through, you know, events thathappen.
Yeah, so it made me really seeand feel the power of
storytelling and that has quitemade a quite big impact on
(12:56):
myself.
I kind of see how important itis to tell stories yeah, what an
amazing uh mission, mission foryou, right?
Speaker 2 (13:05):
You're like I have chronic illness.
I'm going to coach writers withchronic illnesses and get more
representation out there.
I think that's amazing and Ibet you show up to your work and
you're like I love my job.
Speaker 1 (13:19):
Every day.
Yeah, and this is the thing youknow, when you live with
something for 20 years and youbecome more limited, more
limited by the year and you'rekind of been given up by the
medical world and even thepeople who are giving you help
through, like council staff,they're like, well, I can kind
of put you on the, you know,like a pile of unhelpful people,
(13:40):
basically, and I was kind oflike no, no know, this can't be
it, right.
Yeah, that's exactly when Ifound the coaching and purpose
that it gave me and fulfillmentthat it's given me.
Alongside of writing is ispalpable.
Speaker 2 (13:59):
Yeah, that's amazing yeah yeah, that's very cool and
so it lets I.
I like that.
You're um, you're kind ofleading us to where I want to
talk about next and that's likehow does someone with a chronic
illness deal with trying towrite a book?
Like, what are some mindsetstrategies?
What are some practicalstrategies?
I know you talk about how youcan actually use your chronic
(14:22):
illness as kind of a superpower.
So lead us into that.
Speaker 1 (14:27):
I think practically it's quite.
For me there's this one thingis that you write where you feel
comfortable, because we sooften hear about, oh, you have
to sit behind your laptop on adesk, have a really clean desk,
like shut off Wi-Fi, all thosekinds of rules that exist.
They don't work for us, becauseI can't often sit up like this,
(14:48):
right, you know, and so my spotis on the side there and I
often use either a notebook ormy phone, and that's fine.
It doesn't make you any less ofa writer when you use your
phone, right yeah.
It's one of those really weirdthings that kind of stuck like
you need to be on the laptop.
No, you don't.
Speaker 2 (15:07):
No, you don't yeah, and are you talking about
dictation or like typing on yourphone?
Speaker 1 (15:11):
I do both.
Yes, I use both.
I type on my phone and I alsouse dictation, because sometimes
, like you know, migraines andyou can't like they're in, yeah,
but you do have an idea thatyou need to get down, yes, uh.
So, yes, I use dictation a lotas well.
And when it comes to mindsetstuff, it's funny because when
it comes to coaching chronicallyold people like this, exactly
(15:32):
as you said, the skills are thesame yeah you know, it doesn't
change.
like a story is a story, acharacter needs to be as 3d to
me as it needs to be for you.
Right, that doesn't change.
But what changes is the is theemotional side of.
I really want to write today,but I can't.
Does my voice even matter whenno one seems to care about me,
(15:54):
when I'm, I'm seen nowhere?
Why would I write this story?
Because will anybody even wantto read it?
And it's really those kinds ofthings that are very unique to
writers with a disability or achronic illness.
And I always say and that kindof tips is towards the
superpower is that we often feelwhen your life is small, the
(16:17):
saying goes write what you know.
And they always come to me andgo, but I know so little, yeah,
I, I experience so little oflife.
And there's one thing that Ialways say, and it's when you
look at Stephen King and youread his horror books, do you
(16:40):
really believe that heencountered clouds with balloons
?
Was he really, you know, inmisery, with his lover being
forced to write a story?
Yeah, you know, it's those kindsof things and you're like
that's not what he knew.
He didn't write, or hope forhim that he didn't write from
(17:00):
experience, that's it.
Well, what he did was writefrom his experience of fear.
He knows what fear is.
He knows what that humanemotion does and how to channel
that Right.
And also, when you say thatit's like it's about the
emotions of people, it's notabout the experiences that you
(17:21):
have, you can giggle that, yeah,basically.
And also when I say that'relike, oh, no, it's about
emotions, yeah, and I'm like,when you are chronically ill,
you experience so much pain,loss of life, your own life,
your own future loss offriendships, loss of family,
(17:42):
loss of jobs, but I could go on.
In that sense, yes, you alsolose trust, exactly what you
said.
You lose complete trust in yourown life.
You lose agency.
You know you have to surrenderto this thing that you didn't
choose and it's with you for therest of your life and that's
something that's quite heavy.
And so writing is humanexperiences and emotions, and if
(18:08):
there's anything we know, it'semotions and feelings and that
we use, and I truly feel thatit's a superpower, because when
I write about stuff that I know,I can tell that it resonates
with people.
And that's not because I did atrip around the world I wish I
had.
I resonates with people, yes,and that's not because I, you
know, did a trip around theworld I wish I had.
Yeah, I wish I had, yes, but Ihaven't.
(18:31):
But what I do know is what painis Right, and that is often
what people relate to.
What readers relate to, youknow, it's the pain of life, of
like, oh my gosh, she gets it,and that's I mean.
Obviously we wish we didn'tfeel this pain, that we didn't
wish.
We wish we didn't know allthese emotions up close, this
(18:51):
much.
But we do so we might as welluse it in our creative
expression and in our stories,because it makes them so much
stronger.
Speaker 2 (18:58):
Might as well turn it into a positive when we can,
and so I don't specialize inworking with writers with
chronic illnesses I don't have achronic illness myself.
However, I have worked with fiveor six writers over the course
of my time who have chronicillnesses and I agree with
everything you just said, thatlike their stories, they're able
(19:18):
to get to something so muchdeeper and so much stronger
quicker, because it's like Ilived this.
I know what it feels like tohave you know that, almost like
the inciting incident of theirlife right, finding out I have a
chronic illness and what am Igoing to do about that and
whatever the conflicts that comeup.
So it's like they, because theylive it, they can tap into that
(19:39):
so quickly and like not sayingother people can't.
Of course we all can, we allhave different skills and things
, but I love how you'rereframing it.
It's like let's use it, let'sput it to good use and help you,
the writer with chronic illness, get to that point that you
want, which is publishing a bookand sharing your story and
feeling seen and heard and allthat.
So I think that's justwonderful thank you, yeah, I
(20:02):
think it's.
Speaker 1 (20:03):
It's one of those things.
Often when clients come to me,they are scared and they don't
feel like they are right.
You know that they can bewriters because they feel so
much.
There's so many blocks for them, and when I kind of work with
them for quite a while they'relike oh, and often the first
thing they say is thank you formaking me see that I can be a
writer.
(20:23):
Yes, and just thattransformation in itself is
worth everything.
And it's so true that everyonehas their own crosses and
everyone has experiences andpain in their own way, and so
you know, using that in ourstorytelling.
It also depends what genre youwrite, whether or not you want
(20:45):
to escape write, whether or notyou want to escape, whether or
not you want to dig into whatyou've been through.
But in all ways, even if youwant to escape, stories are
about.
You know there are lows in thestory right, there have to be,
and you can always use thatchain through those scenes.
And it's exactly as you said.
We'd rather not know this, butwe do, and we might as well take
(21:08):
a positive out of it and makesome use out of our situation.
Really.
Speaker 2 (21:15):
Yeah, and to speak kind of on that escapism note,
I've even seen some of thewriters that I mentioned earlier
.
It's almost like they.
Of course we put ourselves intoour protagonist, right, we all
do to a certain extent but theyalmost sometimes can use it as a
way to rewrite what they wishyou know could happen, or they
want to show, like you know I'mthinking of the fourth wing book
(21:36):
, right, and that woman, thecharacter, has a chronic illness
, right, and she's, she findsstrength in a different way and
like, how inspiring is that?
So there's just so many optionsand I think, like what I'm
hearing you say, what everythingboils down to is like you have
to have compassion for yourself,because not every day is going
to be, you know, writing athousand words and doing what
(21:59):
other people can do, which, if Iwere to back up and like, just
think about that advice, I don'tlove that advice for anybody
you know, chronic illness or not.
I don't think we should pressureourselves to stick to a certain
workout per day unless thatworks for someone in their
process.
But we all have a life, we allhave things we have to do, we
all have days where we don'tfeel like writing, but, yeah, it
comes down to self-compassion,it comes down to like knowing
(22:22):
I'm sure I don't know, correctme if I'm wrong but I'm sure,
with the chronic illness,although it seems random, there
are probably like patterns tothings, in a way right when,
like, I've been feeling ill forso long, like three weeks I'm
not, you know, not saying threeis the magic number, but I've
been ill.
There's going to be light atthe end of the tunnel and when
(22:43):
there's light at the end of thetunnel, I want to make sure to
make use of that time and, it'slike you know, plan for that and
then allow yourself to go intothat period of I don't feel well
and it's okay either way, youknow, yeah, it's exactly like
that, and I will be often callit our baseline.
Speaker 1 (22:59):
We have, like, over a longer period of time, you have
a certain baseline and withinthat baseline you know exactly
what you can do.
So it can be writing two hoursa week, it can be two hours a
day, it can be two hours a month, and you know the baseline
changes, it fluctuates, itdiffers on different periods of
your life, different periods ofthe year even, but it's exactly
(23:22):
that.
It's trying to create a sort ofpattern for yourself, and
especially an emotional one.
Again.
Yeah, because it's exactly whatyou just said.
It's about being compassionatefor yourself, which is
interesting because so often uswriters are very empathetic
people not to ourselves exactly.
Yeah, that's exactly the point.
(23:44):
We're not to ourselves.
Yeah, we're extremely kind andempathetic to other people and
to their stories, but when weturn the camera around, we're
like I suck yeah, and I shouldbe perfect, and I should, I
should do all these things right?
Speaker 2 (23:58):
someone this astrologer that I really like he
talks about how we shouldn'tshould all over ourselves and
that's like exactly what we alldo.
We're like I should do this, Ishould do that, and then if we
were to give our like bestwriting friend advice, we would
never talk to them like that.
Speaker 1 (24:14):
I know it's exactly like that and it's even as a
coach.
I do it because they say allthese beautiful things to you
and meanwhile I'm like, yeah,nervous, and I'm really like I,
I, oh my, and like you know allthe shits, like I should do this
, I should do that, and when youturn around, actually you're
doing your best, you're doingyour best.
Speaker 2 (24:32):
Yeah, that's all you can always do.
Yeah, yeah, and I actually findlike of course it's hard to
reach that point of trueself-compassion where you're
like I'm just going to go withthe flow and things like that.
But the more you try, the moreyou kind of stumble through it.
It does get easier tounderstand the patterns and to
have that compassion foryourself.
Of course you're never going tobe perfect at it, but it's kind
(24:54):
of like you have to go throughthe stumbling of trying to get
to that feeling that you wantand the ability to sit down and
write, when you do have thatmental time and space and
physical time and space yeah,absolutely, and I always.
Speaker 1 (25:08):
I'm really adhered to the.
I'm always trying my best, evenif it looks different every day
yeah it's?
it's that kind of like I.
I'm completely acknowledgingthat I'm going to fluctuate when
it comes to my mental andphysical health, but even when
that happens, I still do my verybest.
(25:29):
Yeah, when it comes to my storywriting and it, and exactly
being compassionate with myselfwhen I've just had a bad week,
you know where I've tried mybest but nothing happened, and
then not putting yourself in theground, you know, stomping on
yourself going.
You should have exactly youshould have done this.
You should have done that.
It's hard, it's like it's hardwork.
(25:50):
It's hard and certainlyreminding yourself.
Speaker 2 (25:54):
Definitely, and something that I do with the
writers I work with, whetherthey have chronic illnesses or
not, is it's like you have toseparate what's a fact and
what's like a thought or anopinion or a feeling, right?
So in that example you justgave, a fact is that maybe you
didn't write for a week.
There's literally no words thatyou produce.
That's a fact, right?
(26:14):
A fact by itself is neutral.
It literally means nothing.
So you assign the meaning tothat right, and you can choose,
as someone again with a chronicillness or not, are you going to
look at that fact and say Ididn't write a thousand words
this week like I wanted, Ididn't write any words.
I'm a failure, my story's nevergoing to be told Like all these
(26:35):
things we catastrophize.
Or are you going to say Ididn't write a thousand words, I
didn't write anything this week, it's just a neutral fact and
I'm going to try again next week, you know?
So it sounds simple.
It's very hard to do,especially we're in the moment,
but you know, I live withanxiety and depression.
I have, like you know, theyfluctuate different at different
(26:56):
times, but that's one of thethings that's helped me the most
.
It's like what's a fact?
Facts are always neutral.
You know you could prove it ina court of law that this is a
fact, and then everything elseis up to you how, what you're
going to bring to that fact.
Speaker 1 (27:10):
And it is that word, fact and neutral has really
helped me yeah, and it's funnybecause I work with with a
therapist who says exactly thatas well.
So we're really working hard onthat.
And, yeah, one of the thingsshe also uses really in relation
to chronic illness and chronicpain is there is the pain of the
illness, both physical andemotional.
(27:31):
Yes, it's there, it's justphysical, it's there again, it's
a fact.
Yes, and then she what shecalls that clean pain.
That's the clean pain, and thenyou've got the dirty pain which
you add yourself, which isemotional, which is this pain
means that I can't do this, thatI can't do that, that I suck,
that I don't deserve good things, that everything I'm ever going
(27:55):
to do is going to end infailure.
That is all the dirty pain thatcomes with it.
Basically, just all thethoughts.
It's exactly kind of the sameidea, but very much attached to
the chronic illness and chronicpain.
Speaker 2 (28:07):
Um, yeah, terminology , yeah yeah, and it's such an
interesting way to look at itbecause, you know, sometimes
it's like I.
I just want to make it clearthat of course we're all going
to have these thoughts.
The thoughts aren't.
It's not like we can say you'rebad for having these thoughts,
right again, it's just like afact of life that we all spiral
from time to time and we allhave our emotions.
(28:28):
But it's just kind of knowinghow to recognize, like,
basically, fact from fiction,right?
Like, although our thoughts arevery real and our feelings and
thoughts are very real and valid, they're still kind of our
version of fiction, right?
Speaker 1 (28:41):
Like they're not that neutral fact and it's funny
because my my therapist oftensays to me you are not
chronically ill, you are aperson who has chronic illness
yes, and it's kind of the samething of going from facts to um,
distancing yourself fromsomething and not making it your
(29:02):
full identity, when that'ssomething that I also have to
constantly remind myself of.
I am more than that.
I am a writer and, yes, I usemy experiences, because I'm
human.
Of course I do.
Yeah, all again, use thecrosses that we've.
You know the traumas that we'vebeen through.
We all use them in our writingright but as long as you are
(29:22):
able to kind of you know, takethat step back and kind of go
okay.
Did this paragraph really suck?
Or is this just you know, myown trauma and low self-esteem
coming through?
Speaker 2 (29:34):
Right.
Speaker 1 (29:35):
Can I actually make this paragraph better?
Yeah, like, be a bit moreneutral about it.
Like, okay, I just want this tobe the best it can be.
Fine, it sucks, but let's makeit better than it is.
Speaker 2 (29:46):
Yeah, and I like something you said earlier that
like, specifically, right nowwe're talking about writers who
have chronic illnesses, buteveryone deals with their own
stuff, right, it could beparents, it could be, you know,
caring for someone elderly inyour life, or whatever like it,
and or it could just be like awhole heap of self self-doubt
because maybe you didn'tgraduate high school or whatever
(30:08):
, right, there could be so manydifferent things.
So I like what you said aboutyou're a writer.
You're a person with a chronicillness.
You're not.
However, you said it theopposite way, which was you're
chronically ill, right, yeah, itsounds.
Speaker 1 (30:21):
I'm Dutch, it sounds better in Dutch.
It really kind of is attachedto the identity of yourself.
Yeah, but yeah, it's basicallyabout taking that distance from
it's not all of me, right?
And again, I've been sick forover 20 years.
It's only the last five yearsthat I've been able to kind of
take that step back, so it'sbeen a very real work.
I mean, I got ill when I was ateenager, so it sticks to you
(30:46):
Like, yeah, I mean I got illwhen I was a teenager, so it
sticks to you like you know,that was the time that you
shaped your own identity.
So when you're ill and you can'tdo anything, that is your
identity yeah and it took me avery long time to shed that, but
once you realize okay, it'sexactly what you said.
I'm Savannah, I have depression, I have anxiety, but I also
have my amazing moments, right.
I love lots of people.
People love love me.
I am a bit coach, I'm an editor, I'm all these great things,
(31:09):
yeah.
And it's hard sometimes whenyour whole life is dictated from
the moment you wake up by.
How do I feel today, right,something that is not under your
control, and it's really,really hard.
And so being ill is more than afull-time job, because it's
constantly there and youconstantly have to remind
yourself of it, but you canstill be so many things inside
(31:31):
that illness.
Speaker 2 (31:36):
And I just love this too, as someone who's I'm coming
from it, from outside the world, of being a person with a
chronic illness, Because, again,I do not have a chronic illness
and I just like I'm imaginingthat if I was someone with a
chronic illness and I wasexperiencing all of this, I
might look at other people, like, let's say, a mom of three who
she published a book, and Imight feel jealous.
Your mind correct me if I'mwrong.
There's no reason why that momof three can write a book and
(32:09):
you can't, someone who has achronic illness, right?
It's just learning how to dealwith whatever your situation is
and learning strategies bothmental, physical, practical,
whatever to still accomplishyour dreams.
Speaker 1 (32:24):
It's one of the really hard things when you're
chronically ill and it's such ahuge, humongous part of your
life is to kind of go, but it'snot all.
That is me.
Yes, as you kind of go like Ican do this, which is really
hard, because now I can't run amarathon.
Yeah, well, I could, but itwouldn't be a good idea.
Yeah, you know, it's one ofthose things like is it worth
(32:48):
the effort?
Yeah, worth it to you to dothose things?
Yes, I could, you know, enter adancing competition.
I could totally do that.
Would it be worth it?
Maybe, because I love dancing?
I would be sick for threemonths, but it might be worth it
because I haven't danced in waytoo long.
Is it worth writing a book, evenif it takes three years?
Yep, that's the question youneed to answer.
(33:10):
And you know you can writenovellas.
You can write short stories,right.
It doesn't all have to looklike a 800 page novel, obviously
, right, I've written so manyshort stories because my energy
and my brain fog was so that Ineeded to finish a story in a
month.
Yeah, otherwise my brain wouldjust kind of go you know, yeah,
(33:32):
that worked really well for mefor a period.
And now I'm writing a novel andI know that it's going to take
me probably three years to writeit and I'm okay with that.
Yeah, it's taken me a long timeto be okay with that and to
commit to that and to know thatI have the perseverance to do it
.
Yeah, and it is.
It is sometimes hard to kind ofgo and I don't want to say
(33:54):
victim mode, because I have sucha negative connotation, even
though it's a really naturalstate to be in right.
So I don't mean it in anynegative way, but it's easy to
go.
You can't do that.
Well, actually you can, but youhave to decide whether or not
it's worth the effort for youand the consequences of doing
the thing, because, yes, right,if it will come with pain
(34:16):
because you can't write as muchas you want, write as fast as
you want, it's going to take alonger time.
If that is a problem for you,then yeah, you shouldn't do it.
But most writers will say I'm awriter I write.
It's worth it yeah.
Speaker 2 (34:30):
And there's like, I think, three things I want to
say about that.
So of course, it comes back toself-compassion, which we've all
we've talked about already.
But the other thing is like wecan reframe, like, if I can only
write a short story or onlywrite a novella, talk about some
great practice you know of likehoning your skills with each
new short story or even witheach like new scene that you
(34:50):
write.
Speaker 1 (34:51):
If that's all you have the energy for, what a
great way to hone your craft yes, you know, I learned so much
from writing those short stories, because short stories are
actually.
It sounds easy, they're not.
Speaker 2 (35:03):
They're actually they're hard because you have to
dig into you.
Speaker 1 (35:06):
Like you have to build a world, you have to build
a character that people careabout in a very short amount of
words, yeah, and so they'reextremely good practice and at
the same time, especially inthis really fast world of
scrolling and swiping, it's agreat way to get readers.
I got my first readers throughmy short story.
Then.
I still remember those reviewsoh, that's awesome.
(35:28):
And to this day they get megoing on bad days Like, yeah, I
did that, then they enjoyed it.
Speaker 2 (35:34):
I might not be a bad as far as I think, yeah, and all
that comes from the compassion,self-compassion, of allowing
yourself to do something that'snot a full length novel and to
kind of work with the time andenergy you have.
So I think that's very cool.
Speaker 1 (35:48):
I really treat my novel now as every chapter is a
short story.
Yeah, it helps because, youknow, knowing that it's going to
take me three years, it helpsmy brain right.
This is a practice that I'vediscovered for myself that for
me it works to kind of see it asone whole thing, because then I
can really, you know, put myeffort into that chapter it's
(36:08):
going to take this amount oftime and you know, put my effort
into that chapter it's gonnatake this amount of time and you
know everyone has a thread.
Through writing short storiesin a village, you can really
kind of discover what works foryou, what doesn't right, before
you attack that whole 400 pageyeah best of a novel you can
play with genres too, like writea mystery one day and a fantasy
the other day, and who knowsright?
Speaker 2 (36:28):
that's really fun.
I security my brain, yeahthat's exactly what I did.
Speaker 1 (36:33):
Yeah, I love it.
I'm discovering what I lovedand what was gonna happen.
Speaker 2 (36:36):
Yeah, I think that's so cool and working with how you
feel mentally and physically.
So I think that's the importantpiece is.
It's like we can all explore,right, but we need to allow
ourselves that compassion to beable to explore and do these
kind of things.
I'm kind of going to bring usto the end of our episode here,
and I'm imagining that throughthe work you do because this is
(36:57):
something I do with writers andyou probably have to ask them
like why are you writing thisbook, why is it so important to
you?
And things like that and Ithink, based on what you're
saying, it sounds like if youdon't know that why and your why
is not strong enough you mightfeel a little what do I want to
say?
Like off balance, not asgrounded in what motivates you.
(37:18):
So can you talk about that alittle?
Speaker 1 (37:21):
Yeah, absolutely.
The interesting thing aboutworking with people who have a
chronic illness is that theyoften don't realize how much
their story is actually aboutthemselves.
Yeah, because they often.
I mean, I, I work with everygenre, but I have a large point
of fantasy writers and they cometo me with stories about
(37:42):
dragons, yeah, stories aboutspace adventures and they come
to me and they're like I need toescape, I need to escape.
and then we go down to the whyand they're like I need to
escape, I need to escape.
And then we go down to the whyand they're like, yes, I want to
escape.
And then I put, I pointedsomething in their like plot and
I'm like how is that?
Is that?
Is that really escaping?
And you kind of really gently godeeper and deeper and then they
(38:04):
realize that actually they'rehealing, yeah, through this
story, and they didn't realizethat.
Or they're healing through thisstory and they didn't realize
it.
Or they're not healing that youmentioned it before but
actually changing what happenedto them, but through like a
sci-fi lens or a fantasy lens,right, and they're trying to not
(38:24):
live a different life butexplore the possibilities of
what it would have been like ifRight.
And only when they reach thatpoint are they like, yeah, now I
understand the story and so,yeah, you're absolutely right,
it's the why that often getsoverlooked.
And then you go back to it andit's like, oh my gosh, yeah, and
(38:46):
it's also a very good way offinding themselves in their
story.
Just especially when you'repolitically ill, you want to get
away from it when you writeright, uh.
And then when they find outthat actually it is about that,
at first it might kind ofretreat, like I don't, like I
want this.
Speaker 2 (39:01):
and then the next week they come back to me like
yes, this is what the storyneeds to be yeah, and so like,
as, as an example, we saidearlier that sometimes if you're
a writer with a chronic illness, you might not feel seen, you
might feel invisible.
So imagine Sandra's coaching meand I'm writing a story where
the protagonist feels invisibleand they don't feel seen, and
(39:23):
and it's like, yeah, you, youmight retreat from that Cause.
You're like I just wanted towrite a story about dragons,
right, or whatever.
And then, because I see thishappen too, where they retreat,
and then they're like, oh, butwait, this is what I know, I
know how to do this and, yeah,it feels good actually to
explore a character who feelsthe same things as I do and take
(39:44):
them on that emotional journeyof the story Exactly that, yeah,
and it's kind of a nice thingwhen you see that transformation
in them, kind of go.
Speaker 1 (39:53):
I don't know really what, just what I want to say
with this.
So I'm coming to you, pleasehelp me, like I want this story.
It's something inside me says Ineed to tell this, but I, and
then you get to it and they'relike oh, yeah, that's gold, yes,
absolutely.
Speaker 2 (40:08):
Yeah, yeah, that's gold.
Yes, absolutely, yeah, I lovethat.
So, okay, I know you have afree guide for listeners.
Speaker 1 (40:16):
Do you want to talk about that a little bit?
Yes, any writer here whoidentifies with being
chronically ill or dealing withdaily symptoms, whether or not
mental, physical disabilities.
I have a quite dense guide onhow to write when you have a
chronic illness and it comeswith practical tips, mindset
tips.
It explains a bit more aboutthe superpower of being ill but
(40:37):
also a writer, and it has lotsof examples of what to do when
you really really want to writeand you can't, because there are
definitely options for you tothat you can do different things
that are still writing, even ifit's not worked on the page
yeah, it's a great little guideand we will link to that in the
show notes.
Speaker 2 (40:53):
And then where can people find you on the internet?
Speaker 1 (40:57):
I am.
My business is called yourstory mentor, so you can go to
yourstorymentorcom slashresources, which is also where
you can find the guide and otherresources, and I'm on instagram
a lot, which is atyourstorymental as well.
Speaker 2 (41:11):
Yeah, and we will link to both of those in the
show notes as well.
But, sandra, thank you so muchfor coming on today.
I think a lot of listeners whoare chronically ill, who have a
chronic illness, are going tolove this episode, but I also
think that people who have justdaily struggles of writing a
novel are also going to take alot from this episode.
So I just appreciate everythingyou shared and just coming on
(41:32):
the show.
So, thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (41:34):
Oh, thank you so much for having me Savannah.
Speaker 2 (41:40):
So that's it for today's episode.
As always, thank you so muchfor tuning in and for showing
your support.
If you want to check out any ofthe links I mentioned in this
episode, you can find them inthe show notes listed in the
description of each episodeinside your podcast player or at
savannahgilbocom forward slashpodcast.
If you're an Apple user, I'dreally appreciate it if you took
(42:01):
a few seconds to leave a ratingand a review.
Your ratings and reviews tellApple that this is a podcast
that's worth listening to and,in turn, your reviews will help
this podcast get in front ofmore fiction writers just like
you.
And while you're there, goahead and hit that follow button
, because there's going to beanother brand new episode next
week, full of actionable tips,tools and strategies to help you
(42:22):
become a better writer.
So I'll see you next week anduntil then, happy writing.
Being ill is more than a full-time job, because
it's constantly there and youconstantly have to remind
yourself of it, but you canstill be so many things.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
In my mind, and I'm sure in your mind, there's no
reason why that mom of three canwrite a book and you can't
someone who has a chronicillness, right?
It's just learning how to dealwith whatever your situation is
and learning strategies bothmental, physical, practical,
whatever to still accomplishyour dreams.
Welcome to the Fiction WritingMade Easy podcast.
(00:33):
My name is Savannah Gilbo andI'm here to help you write a
story that works.
I want to prove to you thatwriting a novel doesn't have to
be overwhelming, so each week,I'll bring you a brand new
episode with simple, actionableand step-by-step strategies that
you can implement in yourwriting right away.
So whether you're brand new towriting or more of a seasoned
author looking to improve yourcraft, this podcast is for you.
(00:54):
So pick up a pen and let's getstarted.
In today's episode, I'm chattingwith fellow book coach, sandra
Postma, about how to write whenyou have a chronic illness, and
I wanted to have Sandra on theshow because her message and the
way she approaches working with, and not against having a
chronic illness is so important.
(01:15):
So, yes, sandra is a book coachwho specializes in working with
writers who are facing healthchallenges, and she's also a
woman with multiple chronicillnesses herself, so she really
knows what it's like to faceand deal with the physical,
mental and she's also a womanwith multiple chronic illnesses
herself, so she really knowswhat it's like to face and deal
with the physical, mental andemotional challenges that come
with having a chronic illness.
And we're going to talk aboutall of that and more in this
episode.
Plus, you'll hear Sandra's takeon what she calls the
(01:38):
superpower that comes withwriting when you have a chronic
illness on a daily basis.
So I won't make you wait anylonger, let's dive right into my
conversation with Sandra Postma.
Hi, sandra, welcome to theFiction Writing Made Easy
podcast.
I'm so excited to have you heretoday.
Speaker 1 (01:56):
Hi Savannah, Thank you so much for having me on.
Speaker 2 (01:59):
Yes, and I gave you a little introduction already in
the episode.
But can you, in your own words,just introduce yourself to my
audience?
Let us know who you are, whatyou do and things like that.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (02:09):
So, hi everyone, I'm Samana Pusma and I am a
certified book coach and mentorto people facing health
challenges in their daily life.
So I help writers who aredealing with symptoms on a daily
basis and I help them navigatethat and I help them write the
best books that they possiblycan.
Speaker 2 (02:28):
Love it and do you work with writers of all genres?
Speaker 1 (02:31):
Basically.
Yeah, I read widely myself.
So yes, I have worked withwriters from all sorts of genres
.
Speaker 2 (02:41):
That's great, and so I love that you specialize in
working with writers who arefacing chronic illnesses or
maybe have a family member orsomeone they have to care for
with a chronic illness.
Why did you choose tospecialize in this niche?
Speaker 1 (02:55):
Good question, because I am chronically ill and
I have been for over 20 yearsnow and so it's just a huge part
of of who I am.
And you know, for a very longtime it was my sole identity was
Sandra Prada Keel person andthat was it, and it's taken me a
(03:18):
long time to kind of come andsee that I am more than that,
and being a book coach has beenan incredible importance in that
transition for me, and I wantthat same thing for the writers
that I work with, because somany writers who deal with
chronic illness face certainchallenges that people who don't
(03:40):
have illnesses don't do.
So it's like very small things,like writing habits and, you
know, representation in stories,it's kind of all those.
There may seem small things,but they add up massively right,
and I felt that myself as areader, as a writer.
(04:00):
So when I became a book coach,it was quite apparent that I had
a skill that I could use tohelp other people, and so it was
quite natural to kind of go inthat way, and it's been so
incredibly fulfilling that Ijust made it my whole thing.
Speaker 2 (04:19):
Yeah, I love it Now.
It's part of your personalityand part of your thing.
Speaker 1 (04:23):
Basically yes.
Speaker 2 (04:24):
I love that so much and it's your, you know.
I think you're touching onsomething that's really
important, which is that formost of us, writing is
challenging for various reasons.
Right Like, we usually come tothe page, we don't know how to
write a book, but we Google allthe things and we try and we
stumble around, and so it's likepeople with chronic illness who
are writing still have all ofthose challenges.
(04:45):
And then there's otherchallenges on top of that that
are unique to you know someonewho has a chronic illness.
So if you were to kind of boildown, like what are I don't know
, three to five of the mainchallenges that people who have
chronic illnesses face asthey're trying to write a novel,
on top of the typical thingsthat we normally struggle with
(05:05):
as writers, I think the mainthing is symptoms.
Speaker 1 (05:10):
It means that you really want to write, maybe you
have the time to write, but youhave brain fog, you're too tired
, you have too much pain, youhave a fever, and this is really
endless.
That's one one of the things,so you can't write when you want
to.
One of the things that isreally inherent with with people
who are chronically ill is lowself-esteem, and that is
(05:32):
something that every time yousit behind the laptop and you
are able to actually sit downand you immediately go oh but is
my voice worth hearing?
Because you know when?
Because when you are ill, itcomes with so much mental,
emotional baggage, and everywriter has their own cross to
bear.
I have my own that have nothingto do with being chronically
(05:53):
ill.
Busy mums, single parents,carers, full-time workers
everyone has their own thingthat they bring to their writing
habits, so to speak.
And when you're chronically ill,the challenge really is to find
the energy, to find the time,and momentum is a huge issue as
well, because this is theproblem with chronic illness it
(06:15):
fluctuates so much that you wakeup and you don't know whether
or not you were able to writeand you might be in a really
good flow, like for two weeks'relike oh, I'm really getting
into it.
I'm feeling so good these twoweeks and I'm, you know,
symptoms are, you know, kind ofunder control and I'm doing so
well, and then suddenlysomething happens and you're
back on, you know all this over,back in bed, and it takes
(06:38):
another period to get throughthat.
And then you get back to yourstory and like, oh, my
momentum's gone.
Speaker 2 (06:43):
Yeah, and.
Speaker 1 (06:44):
I have to get back to it.
Speaker 2 (06:45):
From what you're saying too, it sounds like, you
know, sometimes you wake up andyou might feel physically well,
but mentally maybe you're notquite there that day, or it's
the opposite, where you feelphysically ill but mentally you
really want to write and youreally want to show up and you
can't.
So it's almost like the starshave to really align and you
have to get the checkbox in bothcolumns to be able to sit down
(07:07):
and write, which is tough,absolutely true it is.
Speaker 1 (07:10):
It is very tough and I think you know we sometimes
underestimate, I think, how muchwriting is a mental game, right
, and you know, I think forevery writer, we always feel
like you know, our skills aren'tgood enough.
Like one day we're like, oh, Ijust wrote crap, and you know
our skills aren't good enough.
Like one day we're like, oh, Ijust wrote crap.
And I think we all deal withthat.
And so it is very true that youcan wake up one day and be
physically like, oh, yeah, Iactually feel good today.
(07:32):
And then you're like, oh, butI'm not in a good space, I feel
really low about who I am andwhat I, you know, bring to the
story and I don't believe in mystory today.
And then another day, anotherday, yeah, you're just so.
And this, this is the one thathappens most often is that you
are absolutely willing and andkeen to write and then your body
(07:52):
said no, you need to rest, yougo, you need to go and sit on
the sofa.
Because you know I think alsoon the resume how exhausting
writing itself is for the brain,for the body.
It's hugely exhausting and itcan be so, so frustrating that
the one thing that you love todo, which is to write, is then
(08:12):
taken away from you because ofyour mental, something you can't
control.
Speaker 2 (08:17):
Oh, that is a thing, yeah, and that's really
frustrating because, you know, Ithink a lot of us like to think
we're in control or feel likewe're in control, and when it's
kind of your own body that'smaking you feel like you're not
in control of your own agency,that's really, really
challenging.
So, definitely like physicalchallenges, mental challenges,
emotional challenges on top of athing that's already
(08:40):
challenging to do.
Speaker 1 (08:42):
Very true, yeah, and that that makes it so.
It makes it a unique challengeto write when you are, when you
have a chronic illness, and it'sreally about committing to like
.
This is what I want to do, andthat's quite, you know, an easy
thing, because when you'rechronically ill, you have such
often, when you have such asmall life.
(09:02):
You know, I spend lots of mytime at home because I'm not
physically well enough to go out, I'm not mentally well enough
to go out, but I can sit downwith a notebook or with my phone
and write.
And I hear it often from clientswhen they come to me.
They're like oh, it was my wayout, writing was my way out
(09:23):
Can't be normally employed, myway out, writing was my way out.
Can't be normally employed, Ican't be, you know, being the
full-time worker that I reallywish I could be, but what I can
do is write stories, right, andthen it gets really, really
frustrating when actually thatnot that simple, yeah, um, and
(09:44):
it's a wonderful thing that wedo have writing to express
ourselves and you know to dealwith, you know the things that
we deal with when you'rechronically ill, when there's no
hope, basically, because it'schronic for a reason.
There's no cure, there's notreatment, but there is this
thing that that keeps you going,and that's just incredible.
Speaker 2 (10:05):
Yeah, that's the power of writing stories, right,
the power of fiction, why welove it.
And something you just saidthat's really interesting is
like you talked about howsometimes the world can feel
small when you're chronicallyill.
Sometimes you feel you aresometimes really trapped inside
the house or you're, you knowyou just it's like you want to
connect with the outside world,you want things to feel bigger
(10:27):
than they are, and so that'swhat fiction can do for us.
And I know that part of whatyou've talked about before is
like writers with chronicillnesses, we want to be seen,
or they want to be seen, and Ithink writers in general, we
want to feel seen, we want tofeel understood.
And for someone with a chronicillness you talked earlier about
(10:47):
, like you want to see morecharacters represented to help
you feel seen and to help youfeel like you're part of the
world too.
Do you want to talk about that?
A?
Speaker 1 (10:56):
little.
Yeah, I think once I one of thethings that I really realized
as I was trading as a coach wasreally how underrepresented I
was.
You know, and especially we seeso many amazing, you know,
marginalized groups, rightly belike a fellow I exist.
Speaker 2 (11:16):
I exist.
Speaker 1 (11:18):
And yeah, and I was watching it, I was feeling like,
oh, I'd recognize this, I canrelate to this in my own way.
I was kind of feeling like, oh,I'd recognize this, I can relate
to this in my own way.
And when I started to really diginto that, I kind of see like,
oh, my goodness, when I wasyounger and I got ill, there was
no book to look at to help me,there was no movie that could
kind of make me feel seen andthat I could relate to as a
(11:41):
teenager dealing with this hugelife-changing thing.
I was really just left on my own, teenager, dealing with this
huge life-changing thing.
I was really just left on myown to deal with this and I
didn't realize the incredibleimpact of that until a few years
ago.
And then, because it made mesee how important stories are,
yeah, you know, how big.
They help and heal and oh, justhow amazing it is to feel seen
(12:06):
and to be seen and to berepresented, also when it comes
to empathy from other people,right, and you know, when I
realized that it was really oneof the things that drew me to
coaching writers like myself isI want you to feel seen, yeah,
and not just in your stories,but just by your coach as well,
(12:27):
because many of my clients don'tnecessarily write about people
with chronic illness, but italways comes back Right.
Speaker 2 (12:34):
One way or another.
Speaker 1 (12:35):
And the same as in my stories.
Some of them do include peoplewith an illness or a disability,
but others don't.
Yeah, but it always comes back,you know, through emotions or
through, you know, events thathappen.
Yeah, so it made me really seeand feel the power of
storytelling and that has quitemade a quite big impact on
(12:56):
myself.
I kind of see how important itis to tell stories yeah, what an
amazing uh mission, mission foryou, right?
Speaker 2 (13:05):
You're like I have chronic illness.
I'm going to coach writers withchronic illnesses and get more
representation out there.
I think that's amazing and Ibet you show up to your work and
you're like I love my job.
Speaker 1 (13:19):
Every day.
Yeah, and this is the thing youknow, when you live with
something for 20 years and youbecome more limited, more
limited by the year and you'rekind of been given up by the
medical world and even thepeople who are giving you help
through, like council staff,they're like, well, I can kind
of put you on the, you know,like a pile of unhelpful people,
(13:40):
basically, and I was kind oflike no, no know, this can't be
it, right.
Yeah, that's exactly when Ifound the coaching and purpose
that it gave me and fulfillmentthat it's given me.
Alongside of writing is ispalpable.
Speaker 2 (13:59):
Yeah, that's amazing yeah yeah, that's very cool and
so it lets I.
I like that.
You're um, you're kind ofleading us to where I want to
talk about next and that's likehow does someone with a chronic
illness deal with trying towrite a book?
Like, what are some mindsetstrategies?
What are some practicalstrategies?
I know you talk about how youcan actually use your chronic
(14:22):
illness as kind of a superpower.
So lead us into that.
Speaker 1 (14:27):
I think practically it's quite.
For me there's this one thingis that you write where you feel
comfortable, because we sooften hear about, oh, you have
to sit behind your laptop on adesk, have a really clean desk,
like shut off Wi-Fi, all thosekinds of rules that exist.
They don't work for us, becauseI can't often sit up like this,
(14:48):
right, you know, and so my spotis on the side there and I
often use either a notebook ormy phone, and that's fine.
It doesn't make you any less ofa writer when you use your
phone, right yeah.
It's one of those really weirdthings that kind of stuck like
you need to be on the laptop.
No, you don't.
Speaker 2 (15:07):
No, you don't yeah, and are you talking about
dictation or like typing on yourphone?
Speaker 1 (15:11):
I do both.
Yes, I use both.
I type on my phone and I alsouse dictation, because sometimes
, like you know, migraines andyou can't like they're in, yeah,
but you do have an idea thatyou need to get down, yes, uh.
So, yes, I use dictation a lotas well.
And when it comes to mindsetstuff, it's funny because when
it comes to coaching chronicallyold people like this, exactly
(15:32):
as you said, the skills are thesame yeah you know, it doesn't
change.
like a story is a story, acharacter needs to be as 3d to
me as it needs to be for you.
Right, that doesn't change.
But what changes is the is theemotional side of.
I really want to write today,but I can't.
Does my voice even matter whenno one seems to care about me,
(15:54):
when I'm, I'm seen nowhere?
Why would I write this story?
Because will anybody even wantto read it?
And it's really those kinds ofthings that are very unique to
writers with a disability or achronic illness.
And I always say and that kindof tips is towards the
superpower is that we often feelwhen your life is small, the
(16:17):
saying goes write what you know.
And they always come to me andgo, but I know so little, yeah,
I, I experience so little oflife.
And there's one thing that Ialways say, and it's when you
look at Stephen King and youread his horror books, do you
(16:40):
really believe that heencountered clouds with balloons
?
Was he really, you know, inmisery, with his lover being
forced to write a story?
Yeah, you know, it's those kindsof things and you're like
that's not what he knew.
He didn't write, or hope forhim that he didn't write from
(17:00):
experience, that's it.
Well, what he did was writefrom his experience of fear.
He knows what fear is.
He knows what that humanemotion does and how to channel
that Right.
And also, when you say thatit's like it's about the
emotions of people, it's notabout the experiences that you
(17:21):
have, you can giggle that, yeah,basically.
And also when I say that'relike, oh, no, it's about
emotions, yeah, and I'm like,when you are chronically ill,
you experience so much pain,loss of life, your own life,
your own future loss offriendships, loss of family,
(17:42):
loss of jobs, but I could go on.
In that sense, yes, you alsolose trust, exactly what you
said.
You lose complete trust in yourown life.
You lose agency.
You know you have to surrenderto this thing that you didn't
choose and it's with you for therest of your life and that's
something that's quite heavy.
And so writing is humanexperiences and emotions, and if
(18:08):
there's anything we know, it'semotions and feelings and that
we use, and I truly feel thatit's a superpower, because when
I write about stuff that I know,I can tell that it resonates
with people.
And that's not because I did atrip around the world I wish I
had.
I resonates with people, yes,and that's not because I, you
know, did a trip around theworld I wish I had.
Yeah, I wish I had, yes, but Ihaven't.
(18:31):
But what I do know is what painis Right, and that is often
what people relate to.
What readers relate to, youknow, it's the pain of life, of
like, oh my gosh, she gets it,and that's I mean.
Obviously we wish we didn'tfeel this pain, that we didn't
wish.
We wish we didn't know allthese emotions up close, this
(18:51):
much.
But we do so we might as welluse it in our creative
expression and in our stories,because it makes them so much
stronger.
Speaker 2 (18:58):
Might as well turn it into a positive when we can,
and so I don't specialize inworking with writers with
chronic illnesses I don't have achronic illness myself.
However, I have worked with fiveor six writers over the course
of my time who have chronicillnesses and I agree with
everything you just said, thatlike their stories, they're able
(19:18):
to get to something so muchdeeper and so much stronger
quicker, because it's like Ilived this.
I know what it feels like tohave you know that, almost like
the inciting incident of theirlife right, finding out I have a
chronic illness and what am Igoing to do about that and
whatever the conflicts that comeup.
So it's like they, because theylive it, they can tap into that
(19:39):
so quickly and like not sayingother people can't.
Of course we all can, we allhave different skills and things
, but I love how you'rereframing it.
It's like let's use it, let'sput it to good use and help you,
the writer with chronic illness, get to that point that you
want, which is publishing a bookand sharing your story and
feeling seen and heard and allthat.
So I think that's justwonderful thank you, yeah, I
(20:02):
think it's.
Speaker 1 (20:03):
It's one of those things.
Often when clients come to me,they are scared and they don't
feel like they are right.
You know that they can bewriters because they feel so
much.
There's so many blocks for them, and when I kind of work with
them for quite a while they'relike oh, and often the first
thing they say is thank you formaking me see that I can be a
writer.
(20:23):
Yes, and just thattransformation in itself is
worth everything.
And it's so true that everyonehas their own crosses and
everyone has experiences andpain in their own way, and so
you know, using that in ourstorytelling.
It also depends what genre youwrite, whether or not you want
(20:45):
to escape write, whether or notyou want to escape, whether or
not you want to dig into whatyou've been through.
But in all ways, even if youwant to escape, stories are
about.
You know there are lows in thestory right, there have to be,
and you can always use thatchain through those scenes.
And it's exactly as you said.
We'd rather not know this, butwe do, and we might as well take
(21:08):
a positive out of it and makesome use out of our situation.
Really.
Speaker 2 (21:15):
Yeah, and to speak kind of on that escapism note,
I've even seen some of thewriters that I mentioned earlier
.
It's almost like they.
Of course we put ourselves intoour protagonist, right, we all
do to a certain extent but theyalmost sometimes can use it as a
way to rewrite what they wishyou know could happen, or they
want to show, like you know I'mthinking of the fourth wing book
(21:36):
, right, and that woman, thecharacter, has a chronic illness
, right, and she's, she findsstrength in a different way and
like, how inspiring is that?
So there's just so many optionsand I think, like what I'm
hearing you say, what everythingboils down to is like you have
to have compassion for yourself,because not every day is going
to be, you know, writing athousand words and doing what
(21:59):
other people can do, which, if Iwere to back up and like, just
think about that advice, I don'tlove that advice for anybody
you know, chronic illness or not.
I don't think we should pressureourselves to stick to a certain
workout per day unless thatworks for someone in their
process.
But we all have a life, we allhave things we have to do, we
all have days where we don'tfeel like writing, but, yeah, it
comes down to self-compassion,it comes down to like knowing
(22:22):
I'm sure I don't know, correctme if I'm wrong but I'm sure,
with the chronic illness,although it seems random, there
are probably like patterns tothings, in a way right when,
like, I've been feeling ill forso long, like three weeks I'm
not, you know, not saying threeis the magic number, but I've
been ill.
There's going to be light atthe end of the tunnel and when
(22:43):
there's light at the end of thetunnel, I want to make sure to
make use of that time and, it'slike you know, plan for that and
then allow yourself to go intothat period of I don't feel well
and it's okay either way, youknow, yeah, it's exactly like
that, and I will be often callit our baseline.
Speaker 1 (22:59):
We have, like, over a longer period of time, you have
a certain baseline and withinthat baseline you know exactly
what you can do.
So it can be writing two hoursa week, it can be two hours a
day, it can be two hours a month, and you know the baseline
changes, it fluctuates, itdiffers on different periods of
your life, different periods ofthe year even, but it's exactly
(23:22):
that.
It's trying to create a sort ofpattern for yourself, and
especially an emotional one.
Again.
Yeah, because it's exactly whatyou just said.
It's about being compassionatefor yourself, which is
interesting because so often uswriters are very empathetic
people not to ourselves exactly.
Yeah, that's exactly the point.
(23:44):
We're not to ourselves.
Yeah, we're extremely kind andempathetic to other people and
to their stories, but when weturn the camera around, we're
like I suck yeah, and I shouldbe perfect, and I should, I
should do all these things right?
Speaker 2 (23:58):
someone this astrologer that I really like he
talks about how we shouldn'tshould all over ourselves and
that's like exactly what we alldo.
We're like I should do this, Ishould do that, and then if we
were to give our like bestwriting friend advice, we would
never talk to them like that.
Speaker 1 (24:14):
I know it's exactly like that and it's even as a
coach.
I do it because they say allthese beautiful things to you
and meanwhile I'm like, yeah,nervous, and I'm really like I,
I, oh my, and like you know allthe shits, like I should do this
, I should do that, and when youturn around, actually you're
doing your best, you're doingyour best.
Speaker 2 (24:32):
Yeah, that's all you can always do.
Yeah, yeah, and I actually findlike of course it's hard to
reach that point of trueself-compassion where you're
like I'm just going to go withthe flow and things like that.
But the more you try, the moreyou kind of stumble through it.
It does get easier tounderstand the patterns and to
have that compassion foryourself.
Of course you're never going tobe perfect at it, but it's kind
(24:54):
of like you have to go throughthe stumbling of trying to get
to that feeling that you wantand the ability to sit down and
write, when you do have thatmental time and space and
physical time and space yeah,absolutely, and I always.
Speaker 1 (25:08):
I'm really adhered to the.
I'm always trying my best, evenif it looks different every day
yeah it's?
it's that kind of like I.
I'm completely acknowledgingthat I'm going to fluctuate when
it comes to my mental andphysical health, but even when
that happens, I still do my verybest.
(25:29):
Yeah, when it comes to my storywriting and it, and exactly
being compassionate with myselfwhen I've just had a bad week,
you know where I've tried mybest but nothing happened, and
then not putting yourself in theground, you know, stomping on
yourself going.
You should have exactly youshould have done this.
You should have done that.
It's hard, it's like it's hardwork.
(25:50):
It's hard and certainlyreminding yourself.
Speaker 2 (25:54):
Definitely, and something that I do with the
writers I work with, whetherthey have chronic illnesses or
not, is it's like you have toseparate what's a fact and
what's like a thought or anopinion or a feeling, right?
So in that example you justgave, a fact is that maybe you
didn't write for a week.
There's literally no words thatyou produce.
That's a fact, right?
(26:14):
A fact by itself is neutral.
It literally means nothing.
So you assign the meaning tothat right, and you can choose,
as someone again with a chronicillness or not, are you going to
look at that fact and say Ididn't write a thousand words
this week like I wanted, Ididn't write any words.
I'm a failure, my story's nevergoing to be told Like all these
(26:35):
things we catastrophize.
Or are you going to say Ididn't write a thousand words, I
didn't write anything this week, it's just a neutral fact and
I'm going to try again next week, you know?
So it sounds simple.
It's very hard to do,especially we're in the moment,
but you know, I live withanxiety and depression.
I have, like you know, theyfluctuate different at different
(26:56):
times, but that's one of thethings that's helped me the most
.
It's like what's a fact?
Facts are always neutral.
You know you could prove it ina court of law that this is a
fact, and then everything elseis up to you how, what you're
going to bring to that fact.
Speaker 1 (27:10):
And it is that word, fact and neutral has really
helped me yeah, and it's funnybecause I work with with a
therapist who says exactly thatas well.
So we're really working hard onthat.
And, yeah, one of the thingsshe also uses really in relation
to chronic illness and chronicpain is there is the pain of the
illness, both physical andemotional.
(27:31):
Yes, it's there, it's justphysical, it's there again, it's
a fact.
Yes, and then she what shecalls that clean pain.
That's the clean pain, and thenyou've got the dirty pain which
you add yourself, which isemotional, which is this pain
means that I can't do this, thatI can't do that, that I suck,
that I don't deserve good things, that everything I'm ever going
(27:55):
to do is going to end infailure.
That is all the dirty pain thatcomes with it.
Basically, just all thethoughts.
It's exactly kind of the sameidea, but very much attached to
the chronic illness and chronicpain.
Speaker 2 (28:07):
Um, yeah, terminology , yeah yeah, and it's such an
interesting way to look at itbecause, you know, sometimes
it's like I.
I just want to make it clearthat of course we're all going
to have these thoughts.
The thoughts aren't.
It's not like we can say you'rebad for having these thoughts,
right again, it's just like afact of life that we all spiral
from time to time and we allhave our emotions.
(28:28):
But it's just kind of knowinghow to recognize, like,
basically, fact from fiction,right?
Like, although our thoughts arevery real and our feelings and
thoughts are very real and valid, they're still kind of our
version of fiction, right?
Speaker 1 (28:41):
Like they're not that neutral fact and it's funny
because my my therapist oftensays to me you are not
chronically ill, you are aperson who has chronic illness
yes, and it's kind of the samething of going from facts to um,
distancing yourself fromsomething and not making it your
(29:02):
full identity, when that'ssomething that I also have to
constantly remind myself of.
I am more than that.
I am a writer and, yes, I usemy experiences, because I'm
human.
Of course I do.
Yeah, all again, use thecrosses that we've.
You know the traumas that we'vebeen through.
We all use them in our writingright but as long as you are
(29:22):
able to kind of you know, takethat step back and kind of go
okay.
Did this paragraph really suck?
Or is this just you know, myown trauma and low self-esteem
coming through?
Speaker 2 (29:34):
Right.
Speaker 1 (29:35):
Can I actually make this paragraph better?
Yeah, like, be a bit moreneutral about it.
Like, okay, I just want this tobe the best it can be.
Fine, it sucks, but let's makeit better than it is.
Speaker 2 (29:46):
Yeah, and I like something you said earlier that
like, specifically, right nowwe're talking about writers who
have chronic illnesses, buteveryone deals with their own
stuff, right, it could beparents, it could be, you know,
caring for someone elderly inyour life, or whatever like it,
and or it could just be like awhole heap of self self-doubt
because maybe you didn'tgraduate high school or whatever
(30:08):
, right, there could be so manydifferent things.
So I like what you said aboutyou're a writer.
You're a person with a chronicillness.
You're not.
However, you said it theopposite way, which was you're
chronically ill, right, yeah, itsounds.
Speaker 1 (30:21):
I'm Dutch, it sounds better in Dutch.
It really kind of is attachedto the identity of yourself.
Yeah, but yeah, it's basicallyabout taking that distance from
it's not all of me, right?
And again, I've been sick forover 20 years.
It's only the last five yearsthat I've been able to kind of
take that step back, so it'sbeen a very real work.
I mean, I got ill when I was ateenager, so it sticks to you
(30:46):
Like, yeah, I mean I got illwhen I was a teenager, so it
sticks to you like you know,that was the time that you
shaped your own identity.
So when you're ill and you can'tdo anything, that is your
identity yeah and it took me avery long time to shed that, but
once you realize okay, it'sexactly what you said.
I'm Savannah, I have depression, I have anxiety, but I also
have my amazing moments, right.
I love lots of people.
People love love me.
I am a bit coach, I'm an editor, I'm all these great things,
(31:09):
yeah.
And it's hard sometimes whenyour whole life is dictated from
the moment you wake up by.
How do I feel today, right,something that is not under your
control, and it's really,really hard.
And so being ill is more than afull-time job, because it's
constantly there and youconstantly have to remind
yourself of it, but you canstill be so many things inside
(31:31):
that illness.
Speaker 2 (31:36):
And I just love this too, as someone who's I'm coming
from it, from outside the world, of being a person with a
chronic illness, Because, again,I do not have a chronic illness
and I just like I'm imaginingthat if I was someone with a
chronic illness and I wasexperiencing all of this, I
might look at other people, like, let's say, a mom of three who
she published a book, and Imight feel jealous.
Your mind correct me if I'mwrong.
There's no reason why that momof three can write a book and
(32:09):
you can't, someone who has achronic illness, right?
It's just learning how to dealwith whatever your situation is
and learning strategies bothmental, physical, practical,
whatever to still accomplishyour dreams.
Speaker 1 (32:24):
It's one of the really hard things when you're
chronically ill and it's such ahuge, humongous part of your
life is to kind of go, but it'snot all.
That is me.
Yes, as you kind of go like Ican do this, which is really
hard, because now I can't run amarathon.
Yeah, well, I could, but itwouldn't be a good idea.
Yeah, you know, it's one ofthose things like is it worth
(32:48):
the effort?
Yeah, worth it to you to dothose things?
Yes, I could, you know, enter adancing competition.
I could totally do that.
Would it be worth it?
Maybe, because I love dancing?
I would be sick for threemonths, but it might be worth it
because I haven't danced in waytoo long.
Is it worth writing a book, evenif it takes three years?
Yep, that's the question youneed to answer.
(33:10):
And you know you can writenovellas.
You can write short stories,right.
It doesn't all have to looklike a 800 page novel, obviously
, right, I've written so manyshort stories because my energy
and my brain fog was so that Ineeded to finish a story in a
month.
Yeah, otherwise my brain wouldjust kind of go you know, yeah,
(33:32):
that worked really well for mefor a period.
And now I'm writing a novel andI know that it's going to take
me probably three years to writeit and I'm okay with that.
Yeah, it's taken me a long timeto be okay with that and to
commit to that and to know thatI have the perseverance to do it
.
Yeah, and it is.
It is sometimes hard to kind ofgo and I don't want to say
(33:54):
victim mode, because I have sucha negative connotation, even
though it's a really naturalstate to be in right.
So I don't mean it in anynegative way, but it's easy to
go.
You can't do that.
Well, actually you can, but youhave to decide whether or not
it's worth the effort for youand the consequences of doing
the thing, because, yes, right,if it will come with pain
(34:16):
because you can't write as muchas you want, write as fast as
you want, it's going to take alonger time.
If that is a problem for you,then yeah, you shouldn't do it.
But most writers will say I'm awriter I write.
It's worth it yeah.
Speaker 2 (34:30):
And there's like, I think, three things I want to
say about that.
So of course, it comes back toself-compassion, which we've all
we've talked about already.
But the other thing is like wecan reframe, like, if I can only
write a short story or onlywrite a novella, talk about some
great practice you know of likehoning your skills with each
new short story or even witheach like new scene that you
(34:50):
write.
Speaker 1 (34:51):
If that's all you have the energy for, what a
great way to hone your craft yes, you know, I learned so much
from writing those short stories, because short stories are
actually.
It sounds easy, they're not.
Speaker 2 (35:03):
They're actually they're hard because you have to
dig into you.
Speaker 1 (35:06):
Like you have to build a world, you have to build
a character that people careabout in a very short amount of
words, yeah, and so they'reextremely good practice and at
the same time, especially inthis really fast world of
scrolling and swiping, it's agreat way to get readers.
I got my first readers throughmy short story.
Then.
I still remember those reviewsoh, that's awesome.
(35:28):
And to this day they get megoing on bad days Like, yeah, I
did that, then they enjoyed it.
Speaker 2 (35:34):
I might not be a bad as far as I think, yeah, and all
that comes from the compassion,self-compassion, of allowing
yourself to do something that'snot a full length novel and to
kind of work with the time andenergy you have.
So I think that's very cool.
Speaker 1 (35:48):
I really treat my novel now as every chapter is a
short story.
Yeah, it helps because, youknow, knowing that it's going to
take me three years, it helpsmy brain right.
This is a practice that I'vediscovered for myself that for
me it works to kind of see it asone whole thing, because then I
can really, you know, put myeffort into that chapter it's
(36:08):
going to take this amount oftime and you know, put my effort
into that chapter it's gonnatake this amount of time and you
know everyone has a thread.
Through writing short storiesin a village, you can really
kind of discover what works foryou, what doesn't right, before
you attack that whole 400 pageyeah best of a novel you can
play with genres too, like writea mystery one day and a fantasy
the other day, and who knowsright?
Speaker 2 (36:28):
that's really fun.
I security my brain, yeahthat's exactly what I did.
Speaker 1 (36:33):
Yeah, I love it.
I'm discovering what I lovedand what was gonna happen.
Speaker 2 (36:36):
Yeah, I think that's so cool and working with how you
feel mentally and physically.
So I think that's the importantpiece is.
It's like we can all explore,right, but we need to allow
ourselves that compassion to beable to explore and do these
kind of things.
I'm kind of going to bring usto the end of our episode here,
and I'm imagining that throughthe work you do because this is
(36:57):
something I do with writers andyou probably have to ask them
like why are you writing thisbook, why is it so important to
you?
And things like that and Ithink, based on what you're
saying, it sounds like if youdon't know that why and your why
is not strong enough you mightfeel a little what do I want to
say?
Like off balance, not asgrounded in what motivates you.
(37:18):
So can you talk about that alittle?
Speaker 1 (37:21):
Yeah, absolutely.
The interesting thing aboutworking with people who have a
chronic illness is that theyoften don't realize how much
their story is actually aboutthemselves.
Yeah, because they often.
I mean, I, I work with everygenre, but I have a large point
of fantasy writers and they cometo me with stories about
(37:42):
dragons, yeah, stories aboutspace adventures and they come
to me and they're like I need toescape, I need to escape.
and then we go down to the whyand they're like I need to
escape, I need to escape.
And then we go down to the whyand they're like, yes, I want to
escape.
And then I put, I pointedsomething in their like plot and
I'm like how is that?
Is that?
Is that really escaping?
And you kind of really gently godeeper and deeper and then they
(38:04):
realize that actually they'rehealing, yeah, through this
story, and they didn't realizethat.
Or they're healing through thisstory and they didn't realize
it.
Or they're not healing that youmentioned it before but
actually changing what happenedto them, but through like a
sci-fi lens or a fantasy lens,right, and they're trying to not
(38:24):
live a different life butexplore the possibilities of
what it would have been like ifRight.
And only when they reach thatpoint are they like, yeah, now I
understand the story and so,yeah, you're absolutely right,
it's the why that often getsoverlooked.
And then you go back to it andit's like, oh my gosh, yeah, and
(38:46):
it's also a very good way offinding themselves in their
story.
Just especially when you'repolitically ill, you want to get
away from it when you writeright, uh.
And then when they find outthat actually it is about that,
at first it might kind ofretreat, like I don't, like I
want this.
Speaker 2 (39:01):
and then the next week they come back to me like
yes, this is what the storyneeds to be yeah, and so like,
as, as an example, we saidearlier that sometimes if you're
a writer with a chronic illness, you might not feel seen, you
might feel invisible.
So imagine Sandra's coaching meand I'm writing a story where
the protagonist feels invisibleand they don't feel seen, and
(39:23):
and it's like, yeah, you, youmight retreat from that Cause.
You're like I just wanted towrite a story about dragons,
right, or whatever.
And then, because I see thishappen too, where they retreat,
and then they're like, oh, butwait, this is what I know, I
know how to do this and, yeah,it feels good actually to
explore a character who feelsthe same things as I do and take
(39:44):
them on that emotional journeyof the story Exactly that, yeah,
and it's kind of a nice thingwhen you see that transformation
in them, kind of go.
Speaker 1 (39:53):
I don't know really what, just what I want to say
with this.
So I'm coming to you, pleasehelp me, like I want this story.
It's something inside me says Ineed to tell this, but I, and
then you get to it and they'relike oh, yeah, that's gold, yes,
absolutely.
Speaker 2 (40:08):
Yeah, yeah, that's gold.
Yes, absolutely, yeah, I lovethat.
So, okay, I know you have afree guide for listeners.
Speaker 1 (40:16):
Do you want to talk about that a little bit?
Yes, any writer here whoidentifies with being
chronically ill or dealing withdaily symptoms, whether or not
mental, physical disabilities.
I have a quite dense guide onhow to write when you have a
chronic illness and it comeswith practical tips, mindset
tips.
It explains a bit more aboutthe superpower of being ill but
(40:37):
also a writer, and it has lotsof examples of what to do when
you really really want to writeand you can't, because there are
definitely options for you tothat you can do different things
that are still writing, even ifit's not worked on the page
yeah, it's a great little guideand we will link to that in the
show notes.
Speaker 2 (40:53):
And then where can people find you on the internet?
Speaker 1 (40:57):
I am.
My business is called yourstory mentor, so you can go to
yourstorymentorcom slashresources, which is also where
you can find the guide and otherresources, and I'm on instagram
a lot, which is atyourstorymental as well.
Speaker 2 (41:11):
Yeah, and we will link to both of those in the
show notes as well.
But, sandra, thank you so muchfor coming on today.
I think a lot of listeners whoare chronically ill, who have a
chronic illness, are going tolove this episode, but I also
think that people who have justdaily struggles of writing a
novel are also going to take alot from this episode.
So I just appreciate everythingyou shared and just coming on
(41:32):
the show.
So, thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (41:34):
Oh, thank you so much for having me Savannah.
Speaker 2 (41:40):
So that's it for today's episode.
As always, thank you so muchfor tuning in and for showing
your support.
If you want to check out any ofthe links I mentioned in this
episode, you can find them inthe show notes listed in the
description of each episodeinside your podcast player or at
savannahgilbocom forward slashpodcast.
If you're an Apple user, I'dreally appreciate it if you took
(42:01):
a few seconds to leave a ratingand a review.
Your ratings and reviews tellApple that this is a podcast
that's worth listening to and,in turn, your reviews will help
this podcast get in front ofmore fiction writers just like
you.
And while you're there, goahead and hit that follow button
, because there's going to beanother brand new episode next
week, full of actionable tips,tools and strategies to help you
(42:22):
become a better writer.
So I'll see you next week anduntil then, happy writing.
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