February 11, 2025 • 44 mins
Discover how a debut author turned her first novel into an Amazon #1 bestseller using strategic marketing tactics instead of relying on social media.
Meet Margaret Mantor, a science-fantasy romance author from Denver whose novel Air And Ashes hit Amazon's bestseller list one month after launch. Tune in to hear us talk about why giving away books for free can lead to more sales, how to use BookBub promotions and newsletter features to skyrocket your Amazon rankings, and why using social media to promote your book doesn’t always work.
Episode Highlights
[03:45] Meet Margaret, a science-fantasy romance author from Denver
[05:03] Celebrating becoming an Amazon bestseller one month after launch
[05:51] How Margaret's high school story idea became an Amazon bestseller
[07:24] Working with a developmental editor and handling feedback
[13:35] The revision process: Beta readers, line editors, and proofreaders
[18:26] Why Margaret chose self-publishing vs. traditional publishing
[20:33] Book marketing strategies that actually worked without social media
[26:55] Key lessons learned and best advice for aspiring authors
[34:35] Looking ahead to book 2 and how it’s already better
If you’re an aspiring fiction author who wants to successfully self-publish your book (without using social media to market it), this episode is for you!
🔗 Links mentioned in this episode:
- Visit Margaret Mantor’s website
- Margaret Mantor on Instagram & TikTok
- Buy Air And Ashes by Margaret Mantor
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👉 Looking for a transcript? If you’re listening on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, scroll down below the episode player until you see the transcript.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Your writing journey is a marathon.
It's not a sprint.
Life happens.
You got to balance it and doyour best with it, trying to
develop a thick skin forself-publishing.
I think developing a thick skincomes when you actually publish
your book and market it andyou're so vulnerable in those
moments of putting somethingyou've worked your heart and
(00:21):
soul for out into the world andpeople can tear it to shreds.
So it's important to develop athick skin.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
Welcome to the Fiction Writing Made Easy
podcast.
My name is Savannah Gilbo andI'm here to help you write a
story that works.
I want to prove to you thatwriting a novel doesn't have to
be overwhelming, so each week,I'll bring you a brand new
episode with simple, actionableand step-by-step strategies that
you can implement in yourwriting right away.
So, whether you're brand new towriting or more of a seasoned
(00:53):
author looking to improve yourcraft, this podcast is for you.
So pick up a pen and let's getstarted.
In today's episode, we're goingto go behind the scenes of one
writer's journey to hear how shewrote, edited and published her
debut novel, air and Ashes.
My guest's name is MargaretMantor, and she's the author of
(01:14):
Air and Ashes, which shedescribes as a young adult
science fantasy romance, and inthis episode we're going to talk
about things like what it waslike to write the first draft of
her debut novel, a novel she'dbeen dreaming about since high
school, no less.
How she handled gettingfeedback from both a
developmental editor and betareaders, including when she
reached out to each, and how sheapproached incorporating their
(01:36):
feedback into her revisions.
And then you'll hear all aboutMargaret's marketing strategies
that made her book an Amazonbestseller upon its release,
marketing strategies that madeher book an Amazon bestseller
upon its release and, spoileralert, it was not social media
that did the trick for Margaret,so if you are a little social
media adverse, you will not wantto miss this part.
I personally found this part ofour discussion super
(01:56):
fascinating, and the strategiesMargaret employed during her
book release and even after itsrelease are something that every
author can implement.
So there is a lot to learnthere.
So Margaret's going to sharehow she found success through
book promotion sites, newsletterfeatures and being a guest on
various podcasts.
Plus, you'll hear her talkabout why she's focused on
(02:16):
getting her book in the hands ofas many readers as possible,
even if that means giving away abunch of free copies to build
her readership.
So this is a jam-packed episode, and before we get into the
conversation, I want to read theback cover copy of Margaret's
book, just so that you have somecontext.
So here's what it says After17-year-old Emma Cross learns
(02:39):
her mom didn't die of cancer butwas murdered, her life is
upended.
Forced from her home, emma isthrown into a world hidden
within our own, whereElementum's genetically
engineered super soldiers whocontrol the elements are caught
in a vicious war against theunstoppable clinic.
Emma is convinced she doesn'tbelong there until she herself
is targeted as a rare half-breed.
(03:00):
If she wants to survive anduncover the dark secrets of her
mom's past, she must train todefend herself against the
clinic while resisting thedistracting allure of the icy
Caden Hale, a powerful, drivenElementum with secrets of his
own.
When Emma discovers a highlyclassified project that somehow
involved her mom and couldchange the entire course of the
(03:21):
war, there's no turning back.
Only three options remain lifein the elementum world, death or
, worst of all, capture.
And with that being said, let'sdive into my conversation with
Margaret Mantor.
Hi, margaret, thank you so muchfor coming on the Fiction
(03:42):
Writing Made Easy podcast.
Speaker 1 (03:43):
I'm so excited to talk to you today.
How are you?
Thanks, savannah, I'm veryhonored to be here and doing
great.
Speaker 2 (03:48):
So before we get into everything, Margaret, can you
introduce yourself to mylisteners in your own words,
just who you are, where you live, what kind of stories you write
and things like that.
Speaker 1 (03:57):
Absolutely so.
My name is Margaret Mantour.
I'm a science fantasy romanceauthor, so if you don't know
what science fantasy is, it'sthe combination of science
fiction and fantasy.
It's where they meet the loveof it all and I am a author,
architect and an avid reader andI live in Denver, Colorado,
(04:22):
with my husband and my corgi,Carl.
He's my little burnt toast loveand he's my writing buddy and
he knows all my thought storiesand plot twists and everything.
Speaker 2 (04:37):
So yeah, I love that and congratulations on your
recent book launch so recent.
At the time of this recording,your book came out on October
8th, 2024, right, yes and yeah.
And I read a summary of yourbook in the intro.
It sounds amazing.
I've had the pleasure ofreading an early draft so I can
(04:58):
definitely say it's a great book.
But how are you feeling?
It's now like a month afteryour published date.
Speaker 1 (05:04):
How are you feeling?
Yeah, it's been a rollercoaster in ways, but truly it's
been an experience that Icouldn't have loved more
honestly.
It hit number one new releaseon Amazon in one of its
categories I've gotten the wordout there and people have
reviewed it and seem to love it,and so it's all the support
(05:28):
that comes in that has just madeit all worth it.
Speaker 2 (05:31):
Yeah, all those hard years and months of like really
digging in, doing the work andnow it's like, yeah, it's
finally out there.
Yes, so we're going to talkabout.
I want to definitely come backto like how you made it an
Amazon bestseller and what wentinto that, but I kind of want to
take you all the way back tothe very starting line.
So can you talk about wherethis idea came from and how you
(05:53):
knew you wanted to turn thisidea into a novel and things
like that?
Speaker 1 (05:57):
Absolutely so.
Actually, this story came to meback in high school and I was
always told you know, writing isa difficult career.
You won't ever make it Like,don't do it.
So I ended up going a wholedifferent career path and then
later in life I ended up havingan opportunity to actually
(06:20):
explore going about a writingcareer and pick the story back
up in my head.
And now we're here.
Speaker 2 (06:28):
That's so fun.
So, all the way back from, like, high school days to fast
forward, you went in the realworld, which I think so much of
us do.
I hate calling it the realworld, because I think writing
can be our real world too.
But you did the thing most ofus do we get the job.
We kind of put down writing fora while and come back to it.
And we actually met when youhad a draft.
(06:49):
So I'm going to kind of likejump ahead to you.
You wrote the draft, you had theidea, you wrote the draft and
then, in 2023 is when youreached out to me for a
developmental edit.
So I don't know if you canremember like where your head
was at that time, because it'snow two years ago right, more
than two years ago but when youhad written that draft and
(07:09):
you're kind of like okay, nowI'm finally ready to like take
this dream seriously, I'm readyto get it out in the world.
What made you know or what madeyou realize this is the time to
get feedback?
And then, how did you kind ofgo about that?
Speaker 1 (07:21):
Yeah, absolutely so.
Before I even wrote my firstdraft, I did a number of months
of researching the process ofhow to write a book, how to go
about it, and during thatresearch it was highly
recommended to hire adevelopmental editor, which I
fully agreed with.
If you're going to buildsomething, a solid foundation is
(07:44):
critical to that and Iconsidered the developmental
letter process as that criticalfoundation.
Moving forward, Picking thepoint, when I did send it to you
, I decided after edited versionof my first draft.
I knew I was at a point where Ihad explored the story enough,
(08:05):
but I knew I needed feedback tomake sure I was going in the
right direction or things Ineeded to cut in that process.
So it was yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:16):
And that's kind of how I think it happens for a lot
of people is they go out andthey're reading the articles,
they're getting the books andthey're listening to podcasts
and doing all the things.
So they know this is what I'maiming for.
And then they write a draft andthey're like my draft doesn't
quite match what I know itshould.
I just don't know how to get itthere.
And that's, like you said,exactly what a developmental
editor will do.
(08:36):
So I'm so glad you reached outand then I went back and looked
at kind of your draft and justsome of the notes I left you and
things like that, because we'regoing to go down memory lane
for a second.
But if I had to summarizebecause I know that listeners
find this really interestinglike well, we'll talk about this
.
So, like A, what was it?
(08:57):
Like B, what did you do withthe feedback and things like
that?
So first, I guess let me askyou as a person in general, how
are you with receiving feedback?
Like, was it scary to thinkabout getting it?
Were you looking forward to it?
Tell me about that.
Speaker 1 (09:08):
A mix of emotions.
So so yes and no on all that.
Personally, I think receivingespecially professional feedback
is absolutely important.
I highly recommend it toanybody going through the
process.
I highly recommend it toanybody going through the
process.
However, receiving the feedbackfor something that you've
(09:29):
poured your heart and soul intoand spent, you know, months over
, and everything it's so hard.
It's rough.
I will not lie.
I would highly recommend tryingto distance yourself as much as
you can before you receive thatfeedback so that way you can
take it positively, because anyeditor that you hire is only
(09:52):
trying to improve your story,how you tell it, and so that you
can get the best version of itout there into the world.
Speaker 2 (10:01):
Yeah, and I think it's so interesting because
sometimes writers think like ifI just become a better writer,
then getting feedback will beeasy, and most of the time I'm
like I don't think it ever getseasy.
I think you just kind of shiftyour mindset around it, because
even, like for me, when I getfeedback on my work, because
people always ask me like, well,you're an editor, do you need
an editor?
And I'm like, yeah, I do.
And every you know, every timeI get feedback, there's still
(10:30):
that like, oh, I wish I hadnailed it, you know, I wish I
had done better.
So I think it's very normal tofeel that way and I love to hear
you talk about it, just tonormalize that a little bit more
.
So for any listeners that arelike, yeah, I don't love it, but
I know it's necessary, that'spretty normal.
Speaker 1 (10:40):
Oh yeah, no.
Speaker 2 (10:41):
Yeah, yeah, so, okay.
So I kind of took some keypoints of like things I told you
in the editorial letter and ifI were to summarize it's, I
think the biggest thing thatyour draft needed was some work
on the antagonist.
Do you remember that from thatexperience?
Speaker 1 (11:02):
Yes, and hopefully in the final inspiration it came
out better.
However, I think I struggledthe most because I had planned
this as a three book series andI didn't want to give too much
away, I guess, and so hearingthat feedback was very important
to be able to say no, no, no.
It's needed for the reader tounderstand the world and go from
(11:24):
there.
Speaker 2 (11:25):
I'm sure I'm sure I haven't finished reading the new
version but I already washoping.
Through it I'm like, ooh, thisis so good, so I feel confident.
But a couple of the specificthings was like we need to
sharpen, like what does thisantagonist actually want?
Why do they want it?
I just needed to understandthat more and there are so many
benefits to doing that.
Because if we look at kind ofthe other feedback I gave, it
(11:46):
was like your main character isgreat, but she could use a
little more agency here andthere and all of that really
ties back to just how sheunderstands the stakes and like
what the antagonist is trying todo.
So you know and it's interestingthat you reminded me you're
writing a series because thishappens often we try to spread
things out and sometimes it'slike, yes, we want to spread
(12:07):
things out, obviously becausethe antagonist is the
overarching series antagonist,but we still need them to have a
clear goal, clear motivation,clear plan in book one, book two
and book three.
So I can't wait to see how youhandle that.
But I'd say that's the biggestthing.
That my notes said is justclarify that and it should kind
of shake out all the otherthings.
(12:28):
So why I bring this up is it'spretty cool that, given all the
things that could have gonewrong with your draft, that was
really one of the like thebiggest thing you needed to fix
and you did so much well, sothat's very cool.
Speaker 1 (12:42):
Yeah, it was inspiring when I got your
editorial letter, that all thepositives about it, because I
was terrified that like it wasgoing to be, like what are you
doing?
Why you should quit now?
Speaker 2 (12:55):
No, I know that's what everyone thinks, yeah, they
think they're going to get thisletter.
That's like you should justgive up on writing and it's like
, no, yes, there are going to bethings to improve, but there
are also a lot of things you dowell.
So, and that's what's greatabout editing right Is you fix
the things that need improvementand then you just get better at
the things that are alreadyworking.
So all of that's great and I,like I said, I can't wait to see
(13:18):
where the draft landed.
I got my copy at the timerecording this.
We just got home from vacation,so it was waiting for me when I
got home and I'm going to digin soon, okay.
So, after you got the feedback,I know like we had a phone call,
we brainstormed some things andthen, like I don't know what
happened after that.
So I would love for you to tellus, like, what did you do?
How did you kind of tackle youredits?
(13:39):
How many drafts, if youremember, did that take?
And then, did you work withother editors or beta readers?
Like what was that whole thinglike?
Speaker 1 (13:47):
Yeah, so I did have to take a little bit of time off
for personal issues,unfortunately, but you know life
happens during that process.
But overall, after taking thefeedback you gave me, I
organized it into kind of atracking list and really went
(14:08):
back and flushed out the plotpoints that in the agency and
everything that you pointed outand came up with a different
process of how I plotted thebook and actually has been a
lifesaver for book two and Ibelieve book two will be even
(14:30):
better, I'm like getting aboutit hopefully.
But it really did help thatkind of planning it out.
And so then, after figuring outand plotting out all those
revisions that I did want to do,went back in and revised the
actual draft.
Once I finished revising it, Idid a self-edit again and then
(14:54):
sent it to a line editor.
Oh, sorry, I did forget I didbeta readers.
Wow, I did my beta reading andmy developmental editing
concurrently together, so takingtheir feedback as well within
the developmental revisions.
So that was one process.
(15:14):
And then, after that was done,I sent it to a line editor, then
got their feedback back andkind of did this similar process
of creating a revision trackerand the notes I wanted and then
implementing them into the nextdraft.
Then after that it went to aproofreader.
(15:37):
So all in all I did threeeditors, a round of beta readers
, and that was the process forme that's awesome.
Speaker 2 (15:45):
And so a couple things I want to highlight is
you said like, yeah, getting thefeedback is not always super
fun and of course, there'sthings you're going to need to
work on.
But what you said about howdraft two or book two is already
like such an improvementbecause you got some feedback,
because you developed a newprocess, so it's like, yeah, it
kind of feels scary sometimes,but the benefits are so worth it
(16:06):
to go through that and honeyour process to avoid some of
the things that maybe you neededto do differently in book one,
so that's really cool.
And then you said you did betareading at the same time as
developmental editing.
I think that is really smart aswell, and that's not going to
be the process for every writer,because some writers will need
a developmental edit, adevelopmental edit first, or
(16:27):
they'll decide to do betareading first, depending on
their goals.
When you got the feedback fromthe developmental edit and the
beta reader, were there a lot ofoverlapping things To be honest
.
Speaker 1 (16:38):
Well, yes, yes and no , but more of.
I fully knew that the feedbackI was going to receive from you
was going to be more in-depthand, I guess, more critical to
the story overarching, versusfrom the beta readers.
I knew it was going to be moreof.
Did you actually?
Did things string alongcorrectly?
(17:00):
Were you confused at points?
It was more of a higher levelfeedback from them than I was
expecting, and that was true.
There were a few comments thatI got that actually like I was
surprised by, or like I was likeoh, that's a great point, like,
like, so it was well worth it.
But I would definitely toanybody who's looking to do beta
(17:24):
readers.
Speaker 2 (17:26):
It's just a different form of feedback you'll receive
, depending on how you go aboutit Right, and I love that point
because a lot of people thatdon't know how the process works
are kind of like, oh, I justneed one or I need the other,
and I always recommend both,because the developmental editor
or a book coach whoever you'reworking with they can help you
(17:46):
say okay in this case, margaret,I understand your vision for
the story.
Now how do I help you take thatdraft and make it match your
vision, where the beta readersare saying sometimes they can do
this too, but most timesthey're like this is the story
you're presenting me.
I'm going to share my reactionsand opinions as a reader would,
so it's totally two differentlenses most of the time, which
(18:07):
is really cool and reallyvaluable as a writer.
So, I love that you did that,and so I'm sure, at the same
time, all of this was happeningwith your editors and proof
readers and all this, you werealso working on producing the
book, so like finding coverdesigners and dealing with
formatting and all of that funstuff when, in the process, did
(18:28):
you decide you were going toself-publish?
Speaker 1 (18:30):
So actually it was shortly, shortly before I had my
final call with you, withgetting the feedback.
When I sent it in to you Ihadn't.
I wasn't sure.
But I did more research andkind of read blogs and again,
like you know, there's tons ofinformation out there for
(18:52):
anybody who's wanting to getinto this industry and
definitely take advantage of it.
And just doing the research,weighing the pros and cons, for
me personally, self-publishingcame out as the avenue that just
seemed to best align with myexpertise, my skills, what I
brought to the table.
(19:13):
So, but it's different foreverybody.
Speaker 2 (19:16):
It's totally different and it's you know
there's pros and cons.
Like you said, you're in chargeof everything when you
self-publish, which is great.
It also means there's more workto be done, and you know things
like that.
So I'm going to take you backto what you said earlier, where
you're like I don't regret asingle minute of it, even the
hiccups, and you got to Amazonnumber one bestseller.
(19:36):
So, like you know, these arethe things that when I hear
people say I want toself-publish, it's the things
that people want to achieve andit's you've done it.
So that's, it's just reallycool.
And so I really want to know,like, when you published so you
obviously picked a publisheddate, you did all the steps to
get up to that and we don't haveto go through all of those.
But, like, what did you do thatyou think had the biggest
(19:59):
impact on getting that numberone bestseller flag?
Speaker 1 (20:02):
It was definitely planning out my marketing
strategy, the promotions.
I did as best as I could getthe word out there.
I do think I still have much tolearn and there's building that
audience and platform.
I wish I had done a little bitmore.
You hear that from every debutauthor and authors out there you
(20:25):
wish you had started sooner,that kind of stuff, and it's
true.
But I do think that the avenuesI took did help me do that and
achieve that.
Speaker 2 (20:35):
Yeah, and what are like the two?
If we were to think about allyour marketing efforts, are
there two to three things thateither you love the most or that
move the needle the most.
Speaker 1 (20:44):
So I would say as great as social media is, and
there are some statistics forTikTok of driving book sales.
That's true.
Actually, most of my sales didnot come from social media at
all, more from going topromoting sites and getting onto
(21:05):
their newsletters, doingpodcasts like this.
It's those connections andopportunities led to more sales.
Speaker 2 (21:14):
Right, and that's something in these student
spotlight issues or episodesthat we do.
We keep hearing that listenersright.
So it's like we can't rely onsocial media to sell our books.
We need to do all these otherthings, like build our email
list and use services like didyou use BookBub for the
promotions and NetGalley to getyour stuff in front of ARC
(21:36):
readers and did you do both ofthose?
Speaker 1 (21:38):
things was actually when I did a new release for
less feature with them, and thatwas actually what drove it to
be a bestseller.
So using sites like that anddoing your research of how far
in advance you need to apply forthings, and all that stuff
definitely made a difference forthat.
Speaker 2 (22:01):
And is your background in marketing?
Speaker 1 (22:03):
No, so, as much as I wish it was, no, I did a lot of
research and I learned a lot.
So again, still learning.
Speaker 2 (22:14):
I love that, because earlier you were like, you know,
self-publishing was moretowards my or was in line with
my experience and things likethat.
And some listeners might belike, oh, she must've had a
background in marketing, becauselook at all these amazing
things she did.
No, she didn't.
So you're hearing it fromMargaret no background in
marketing, and look at all thecool things she did.
And this is possible for any ofus listening as well.
(22:34):
So, so cool, Margaret.
And you know one thing that Ihear people talk about when they
think about BookBub and thingslike that, they're like well, if
I list my book for 99 cents orif I put it in this promotion,
I'm probably missing out onmoney, Did you like?
You probably seen that too onthe Internet, but how did you
think about it in a way that gotyou these results?
Speaker 1 (22:55):
Absolutely so.
One of the best advice that Idid find in my research was and
again, this is take this with agrain of salt I guess is forget
about the actual revenue thatyou're going to get for book one
.
Just place it out of your mind.
I know that is scary and itsucks because you're like I want
(23:18):
to make a living doing this.
But, to be honest, book one isnot about that.
It's about getting it out there, finding your audience, and
those readers who will love yourbook and will be giddy for book
two will absolutely buy bookthree and any series that you
write in the future, and doingthat is getting your book out
(23:40):
there by putting it on sale,giving it away for free, and
it's all about what you bring tothe table for those readers,
because anytime you're searchingfor something, it's like as a
customer.
What am I getting out of this?
So a great deal.
You're getting a book fornothing.
(24:01):
It's a great avenue.
Speaker 2 (24:04):
It's a great deal too , for you know you're a debut
author, so the reader doesn'tknow anything about you and they
can, of course, look on theinternet, but they don't have
any of that past experience withyour books.
So they're taking a chance onyou and you're giving it to them
for a good deal.
So it's really a win-win.
And I like how you think aboutit, because you're like look, if
I make money, that's great, butI really need to find my
(24:25):
readers.
And we can all go and look atMargaret's Amazon reviews,
because I was poking around themlast night and almost all of
them were like I can't wait forbook two.
So it's like the things she'sdoing are working and it's
helping her build that readerbase which is so important to
everything you're going to do inthe future.
So I just love, I love all that.
And then you said you're alsogoing on podcasts, which I think
(24:47):
is great, because there's atheme in all these things you're
doing it's exposure and it'strying to get your book in front
of the right readers and like,yes, social media can do that,
but it actually takes a lot morework to get the result.
Speaker 1 (24:59):
Yeah, so I, to be honest, I could be on social
media a lot more posting everyday, and it's a different.
It's another job.
It truly is, and as a writer, Iwant to focus on my writing.
So I do a schedule where I onlypost a certain amount of days.
I still build my platform, butI know it's not going to be
(25:23):
overnight and it's going to takeyears.
And that's okay with me,because I know that I'm also
building my audience in otherindustries and platforms and
everything that actually end upbringing more to the table for
me.
Speaker 2 (25:40):
Yeah, and I love that's how you're thinking about
it.
And there's a lot of writerswho they try to do things on
social media, like they try toget the results that you're
getting from these other avenues, and then they feel defeated
because they're like socialmedia doesn't work and it's like
I mean kind of, but also areyou doing all the other things
that actually move the needle?
And then what's your goal inthe first place?
(26:00):
Is it to make thousands ofdollars on your first book, and
is that realistic?
So I think you're just such agood example of like you've done
the research, you'reprioritizing the right things
and look at the results you'vehad so far, I mean that's great,
yeah.
And like you said earlier,you're like I don't regret a
thing, like yes, there arehiccups maybe along the way, but
you're having fun, you'reenjoying it and you don't regret
(26:22):
a thing, so I love it.
Speaker 1 (26:23):
Yeah, honestly, the lessons learned stick with you
more.
And if the my book had goneperfectly quote unquote like I
wouldn't have learned as muchand I wouldn't have grown like
like your protagonist, you'retrying to grow and, you know,
become better, and I honestly amthankful for the hiccups that I
(26:45):
had, because I wouldn't be whoI am today without them.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (26:49):
So I love that you have such a good mindset on
everything and so, speaking of,like, big lessons or kind of key
takeaways they don't all haveto be stumbling blocks or bad
things but if you were to likethink about Margaret before the
adult version of you went backand tackled this book, because
we know you started it when youwere younger, but what like were
there?
Is there anything you wouldhave said to yourself or any
(27:10):
lessons you would have like?
Would you like to impart onthat previous version of
Margaret if you had the chance?
Speaker 1 (27:18):
Yeah, absolutely.
There's definitely tons ofthings, but I think the more
important ones are your writingjourney is a marathon.
It's not a sprint.
You know life happens.
You got to balance it and doyour best with it.
Another one is trying todevelop a thick skin.
I think for traditionalpublishing, you definitely do
(27:41):
one if you're querying agents,but for self-publishing, I think
developing a thick skin comeswhen you actually publish your
book and market it.
Developing a thick skin comeswhen you actually publish your
book and market it and you're sovulnerable in those moments of
putting something you've workedyour heart and soul for out into
the world, and people can tearit to shreds.
(28:02):
So it's important to develop athick skin.
Speaker 2 (28:06):
And, if I can pause you there, because I want to ask
you if you're having a certainexperience that I've seen other
writers have.
I think it's exactly what yousaid, that traditionally, if you
traditionally publish, you'regoing to have that experience up
front when you're queering anddoing that.
And then if you self-publish,it's really when those reviews
start coming in and there are somany reasons why people will
leave weird or bad reviews.
(28:27):
Like another writer I work with, she got a review on her book,
which is a sci-fi, and it waslike I didn't like this book.
Everything about it wasterrible.
I don't really read sci-fi andit's like well then, why did you
pick this book up?
So sometimes it's like you haveto know that you need to parse
through that stuff.
But also there are so manythings to think about Because if
(28:49):
you're going to work withinfluencers or like anyone in an
ARC campaign, advanced readercopy campaign, those people tend
to be a little harsher or alittle like less giving of the
five-star reviews, even thoughthey might leave you a glowing
review in the text, right.
And then there's like thefriends and family that just
leave all positives becausethey're friends and family.
So it's like there's so manydifferent things and for other
(29:11):
writers that I've worked with,it seems like sometimes those
things come in waves.
So it's like you might get allthe family and friend five stars
and you feel really good fortwo days and then influencer
reviews start coming in and youfeel terrible for three days,
you know, and it's like kind ofa roller coaster, and you're
also so tired because you justwrote, edited and published an
(29:33):
entire book and you're focusingall these marketing efforts
right.
So it's kind of like, yes,thick skin, but also like
consider the context and alsotake care of yourself, because
if you're burnt out,everything's going to feel 40
times worse.
Speaker 1 (29:44):
Oh my gosh, you just like explained like your life,
but specifically like the twoweeks leading up to actually
publishing my book, because Iwas going through the ARC reader
process and like all that stuffand I vividly remember getting
it.
It was one of my first reviewsand my book is a young
(30:05):
adult-based book and the reviewwas like did not finish because
it was a YA.
That was too YA.
Speaker 2 (30:15):
And I was like if you're, Is that a compliment or
an insult?
Speaker 1 (30:18):
I was like if you're looking for, if you're reading a
YA, you should expect it'sgoing to be geared towards a YA
y a on it anyways.
Yeah, so it was um a littledefeating.
Speaker 2 (30:38):
But then other more positive and yeah, feedback came
through and other reviews andstuff, so like, yeah, it's
definitely a roller coasterthough it's hard too, because
when you're writing and doingall the like execution tasks,
it's like just take it day byday, you know, hour by hour, and
then when you get into thereviews, it's like you almost
need to step out of that andlook at it as a whole.
Because if you look at it hourby hour and then when you get
into the reviews, it's like youalmost need to step out of that
and look at it as a whole,because if you look at it hour
by hour, you're going to feelvery like manic, right, because
one hour things are great andyou're getting all these good
(30:59):
reviews, and then the next hourit's like you get that one that
just punches you in the gut forwhatever reason, and then maybe
you go to sleep with thatfeeling and the next day is
totally different.
So it is a roller coaster.
But I love asking people aboutthis particular experience,
because the more we all talkabout it, the more we realize
it's not us, it's just theprocess, right?
Absolutely.
(31:20):
Thank you for sharing that.
And then did you want to talkabout you?
Speaker 1 (31:23):
I know you had some other lessons feeds into what we
were just talking about iswhich really, really helped me
through this process wascelebrating your wins and
accomplishments, no matter howsmall they are, from just
finishing your first draft tobooking your first book
(31:44):
promotion and doing itsuccessfully, and getting
through that process likecelebrate them all because this
industry and this writing careerit can be isolating and it can
be defeating and there aremoments where you'll be like,
why am I doing this?
And celebrating those momentswill help lift you back up and
(32:08):
really remind you why you'redoing this and why you're so
passionate about it.
Speaker 2 (32:14):
Yeah, Something another writer I work with does
is she keeps a folder on hercomputer and it I can't remember
what she calls it, but it'slike a cute name.
That's basically like shescreenshots all the good things,
whether it's like an email, areview, a text message, whatever
and if she's having a bad dayshe just opens that folder and
she kind of scrolls throughthings and sometimes it's really
(32:35):
easy to ignore, like you know,so-and-so's text message that
says, like I read your book, I'mso impressed, you know, because
you forget that and then youremember the one bad review.
So if you know people listeningever struggle with this, you
could also implement that writerstrategy and keep your little
wins folder just to remind youof good stuff.
Speaker 1 (32:52):
It definitely.
It makes it easier to havethose days, because you're going
to have those days where you'rejust you feel defeated or like
you just struggle with writing,you have that mental block or
something, and it'll help you.
It's okay to feel that way, butthen let it pass you through
you and get back up and keepgoing, yeah, keep going, yeah.
Speaker 2 (33:17):
And was there any more on your list?
Speaker 1 (33:19):
I guess two other ones would be do your research,
it helps and then another.
The last one I would say are inany industry, connections are
key.
So, like today, I'm on yourpodcast because it's your
connection, and so it'simportant to be mindful of the
(33:42):
people you meet, and you neverknow where they'll lead you to
too, and it's also about whatyou bring to the table for them
and how you contribute to themor the world in general.
Speaker 2 (33:59):
Yeah, and it's so fun thinking about connections too,
because you just never knowwhere they're going to come from
.
I was already thinking, as youwere talking through some of the
stuff earlier, I'm like I wantyou to meet this other writer
that I work with, because youguys are similar vibes, you have
similar goals, you're doingsimilar things and just thinking
of all the knowledge and likesupport you guys could share.
So and then like imagine youguys connect and who knows what
(34:19):
will come out of that.
So, yes, the writing communitycan feel like you write in the
silo, but there are so manypeople and you just never know
like which connections are goingto lead to amazing things.
So I think that's a wonderfullittle piece of advice.
But okay, so, margaret, I knowyou're working on book two and
you said that the process youlearned some stuff from book one
(34:41):
and like you are looking atkind of the outlining and
planning in a different way.
How are you feeling about yourabilities to tackle book two?
Because there's kind of twoways to look at that.
One is like it's a continuationof a series, which makes it
hard sometimes, but also you'vegrown in skill set.
So like, how are things feeling?
Speaker 1 (35:00):
Again.
Giddy, I guess, is the bestword for me right now.
That'll probably go up and downas I continue the process Again
, I know there'll be otherchallenges and lessons to learn
and I'm kind of looking forwardto that because then again I'm
growing.
But I definitely feel likegoing through the process of
(35:20):
getting one book out in theworld, going fully through the
process, has helped meanticipate what it's going to
take to get book two out thereas well, take to get book two
out there as well, and it feelslike roughly, things have gone
smoother.
I say that with hesitationbecause there are other
(35:45):
challenges, but I definitelythink that it has helped me
better flesh out how to approachbook two and better connect
storylines and fun things.
Speaker 2 (35:54):
And you probably have like a base layer of confidence
just because you did it withbook one.
Like you published it, even if,like, we're all going to have
little doubts, like I could havedone this better or I could
have made this more perfect youknow we all have that but you
did it.
So now you've proven you can doit.
And it's like sometimes, likeyou know, you hear the advice
out there just publish it, justfinish the draft, and I think
(36:15):
people you can't understand howyou're going to feel once you do
that.
Until you're in that.
You know that position.
Speaker 1 (36:21):
So is that?
Speaker 2 (36:22):
I can imagine like that's how you're feeling.
Like I did it.
Now I can do it again.
Speaker 1 (36:26):
Yeah, I definitely feel a lot more confidence.
I do.
I struggled a lot with impostersyndrome in book one and
definitely another negative ofsocial media.
If you follow all the big nameauthors and everything and you
see all this amazing stuff, it'sso hard not to compare yourself
(36:47):
to them yourself, to them orother authors who are even just
slightly ahead of you ofpublishing a book or anything
like that.
It's hard not to compare, but Iwould highly encourage you to
not and instead support thoseauthors because they've been in
your shoes, whether you've seenit or anything like that, so
(37:10):
they've been where you are.
And I would also say don'thesitate, be brave, to reach out
and give them support oranything like that, because I
think, surprisingly, I foundwhen in the writing community,
when you reach out to someoneand want to engage with them
genuinely and everything, theywill pour back the support and
(37:35):
tips and tricks because theyjust want to support you as well
, yeah, because they, like yousaid they were in your shoes,
they wanted that, and so nowthey're paying it forward.
Speaker 2 (37:44):
I have actually found that to be true too, and a lot
of the writers I've talked tothey're like all I had to do was
like ask out or reach out andbe a normal human, a normal
human, a normal, nice, normalhuman, and people were really
nice to me in response.
So, like, don't stay in yourisolation bubble.
If anyone's listening andyou're like I need to do this
more, just do it.
Speaker 1 (38:02):
The first time is always the hardest, but the
payoff is way worth it oh yeah,especially like I know I'm more
geared towards being anintrovert, so it it hard to
again vulnerability and puttingyourself out there.
It takes a lot.
So you know, try to be braveand do it.
Speaker 2 (38:22):
Yeah, do it, it pays off, and I think most of us
writers probably identify asintroverts.
So it's kind of like you know,really, at the end of the day,
if you're an introvert reachingout to an introvert, they
understand you, so they're goingto be nice about it anyway.
But I love that and so okay.
So we're going to put a link towhere people can find your book
(38:43):
.
We're going to put a link toyour social media, your website,
but can you just tell everyonewhere to find you like on the
internet, real quick.
Speaker 1 (38:48):
You can find me on my website it's
wwwmargaretmantorcom, and thenfrom there it has links to my
social media.
I'm on Instagram, tiktok.
It has all the links to whereyou can buy my book if you would
want to.
I'd be honored if you wouldread it, and it also has a
contact page.
If you're a writer, you want toconnect about writing, please
(39:12):
feel free to reach out to me.
I I'll give you whatever tipsand tricks I have.
Hopefully they work for you.
You got to find your ownprocess, but you know I'm here,
all right.
Speaker 2 (39:23):
Well, you'll put all the links to that in the show
notes so people can easily findyou and get in touch.
You've shared a lot of wisdomand great tips with us, but any
like final parting words youwant to give to everyone?
No pressure, yeah, no pressure.
Speaker 1 (39:36):
I would say another great avenue of approaching this
industry, this career, thiswriting world.
That is amazing.
Look for genuine connections,meaning whether it's on social
media, doing podcasts, reachingout in the writing community.
Don't go out there just beinglike buy my book, buy my book,
(40:00):
buy my book.
Look for genuine connectionsand how you can contribute to
other people and they'llcontribute right back to you.
It's about a balancedconnection and genuine exchange.
And it's the support you getback.
It fuels you.
Let me just say it fuels you tokeep going and you find the
(40:22):
people that you connect with themost and you can nerd out about
books and the writing processand everything, and it just
makes it all worthwhile.
Speaker 2 (40:36):
Yeah, and not only is that just a wonderful thing in
general, but we're all a littlebit iffy about marketing
sometimes and I know a lot oflisteners are like I don't know
about marketing, I don't want todo it.
The connections make it easierand they're just great to be a
part of, and it makes the wholething more fun and better.
So there's, you know, otherthan the awkwardness at first,
there's really nothing you haveto lose and it just takes some
of that, that isolation, out ofthe process.
(40:57):
So I love that.
I love that.
That's your final parting tipfor us, margaret, but thank you
so much for coming on andsharing all this with us.
I know that listeners are goingto love it.
So I expect you're going to getsome DMs and some messages and,
yeah, just thank you so much.
We'll have to have you comeback on either when you publish
book two or if you ever want toshare an update of how like
promotions for book one went.
(41:18):
We would love to have you back.
Speaker 1 (41:19):
Yes, I would love to do that.
My hope is to publish book twoin the late, late 2025.
So yeah, you heard it herefirst.
Speaker 2 (41:34):
Yeah, I know I love it.
So that's it for today'sepisode.
As always, thank you so muchfor tuning in and for showing
your support.
If you want to check out any ofthe links I mentioned in this
episode, you can find them inthe show notes listed in the
description of each episodeinside your podcast player or at
(41:55):
savannahgilbocom forward slashpodcast.
If you're an Apple user, I'dreally appreciate it if you took
a few seconds to leave a ratingand a review.
Your ratings and reviews tellApple that this is a podcast
that's worth listening to and,in turn, your reviews will help
this podcast get in front ofmore fiction writers just like
you.
And while you're there, goahead and hit that follow button
(42:16):
, because there's going to beanother brand new episode next
week, full of actionable tips,tools and strategies to help you
become a better writer.
So I'll see you next week anduntil then, happy writing.
Your writing journey is a marathon.
It's not a sprint.
Life happens.
You got to balance it and doyour best with it, trying to
develop a thick skin forself-publishing.
I think developing a thick skincomes when you actually publish
your book and market it andyou're so vulnerable in those
moments of putting somethingyou've worked your heart and
(00:21):
soul for out into the world andpeople can tear it to shreds.
So it's important to develop athick skin.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
Welcome to the Fiction Writing Made Easy
podcast.
My name is Savannah Gilbo andI'm here to help you write a
story that works.
I want to prove to you thatwriting a novel doesn't have to
be overwhelming, so each week,I'll bring you a brand new
episode with simple, actionableand step-by-step strategies that
you can implement in yourwriting right away.
So, whether you're brand new towriting or more of a seasoned
(00:53):
author looking to improve yourcraft, this podcast is for you.
So pick up a pen and let's getstarted.
In today's episode, we're goingto go behind the scenes of one
writer's journey to hear how shewrote, edited and published her
debut novel, air and Ashes.
My guest's name is MargaretMantor, and she's the author of
(01:14):
Air and Ashes, which shedescribes as a young adult
science fantasy romance, and inthis episode we're going to talk
about things like what it waslike to write the first draft of
her debut novel, a novel she'dbeen dreaming about since high
school, no less.
How she handled gettingfeedback from both a
developmental editor and betareaders, including when she
reached out to each, and how sheapproached incorporating their
(01:36):
feedback into her revisions.
And then you'll hear all aboutMargaret's marketing strategies
that made her book an Amazonbestseller upon its release,
marketing strategies that madeher book an Amazon bestseller
upon its release and, spoileralert, it was not social media
that did the trick for Margaret,so if you are a little social
media adverse, you will not wantto miss this part.
I personally found this part ofour discussion super
(01:56):
fascinating, and the strategiesMargaret employed during her
book release and even after itsrelease are something that every
author can implement.
So there is a lot to learnthere.
So Margaret's going to sharehow she found success through
book promotion sites, newsletterfeatures and being a guest on
various podcasts.
Plus, you'll hear her talkabout why she's focused on
(02:16):
getting her book in the hands ofas many readers as possible,
even if that means giving away abunch of free copies to build
her readership.
So this is a jam-packed episode, and before we get into the
conversation, I want to read theback cover copy of Margaret's
book, just so that you have somecontext.
So here's what it says After17-year-old Emma Cross learns
(02:39):
her mom didn't die of cancer butwas murdered, her life is
upended.
Forced from her home, emma isthrown into a world hidden
within our own, whereElementum's genetically
engineered super soldiers whocontrol the elements are caught
in a vicious war against theunstoppable clinic.
Emma is convinced she doesn'tbelong there until she herself
is targeted as a rare half-breed.
(03:00):
If she wants to survive anduncover the dark secrets of her
mom's past, she must train todefend herself against the
clinic while resisting thedistracting allure of the icy
Caden Hale, a powerful, drivenElementum with secrets of his
own.
When Emma discovers a highlyclassified project that somehow
involved her mom and couldchange the entire course of the
(03:21):
war, there's no turning back.
Only three options remain lifein the elementum world, death or
, worst of all, capture.
And with that being said, let'sdive into my conversation with
Margaret Mantor.
Hi, margaret, thank you so muchfor coming on the Fiction
(03:42):
Writing Made Easy podcast.
Speaker 1 (03:43):
I'm so excited to talk to you today.
How are you?
Thanks, savannah, I'm veryhonored to be here and doing
great.
Speaker 2 (03:48):
So before we get into everything, Margaret, can you
introduce yourself to mylisteners in your own words,
just who you are, where you live, what kind of stories you write
and things like that.
Speaker 1 (03:57):
Absolutely so.
My name is Margaret Mantour.
I'm a science fantasy romanceauthor, so if you don't know
what science fantasy is, it'sthe combination of science
fiction and fantasy.
It's where they meet the loveof it all and I am a author,
architect and an avid reader andI live in Denver, Colorado,
(04:22):
with my husband and my corgi,Carl.
He's my little burnt toast loveand he's my writing buddy and
he knows all my thought storiesand plot twists and everything.
Speaker 2 (04:37):
So yeah, I love that and congratulations on your
recent book launch so recent.
At the time of this recording,your book came out on October
8th, 2024, right, yes and yeah.
And I read a summary of yourbook in the intro.
It sounds amazing.
I've had the pleasure ofreading an early draft so I can
(04:58):
definitely say it's a great book.
But how are you feeling?
It's now like a month afteryour published date.
Speaker 1 (05:04):
How are you feeling?
Yeah, it's been a rollercoaster in ways, but truly it's
been an experience that Icouldn't have loved more
honestly.
It hit number one new releaseon Amazon in one of its
categories I've gotten the wordout there and people have
reviewed it and seem to love it,and so it's all the support
(05:28):
that comes in that has just madeit all worth it.
Speaker 2 (05:31):
Yeah, all those hard years and months of like really
digging in, doing the work andnow it's like, yeah, it's
finally out there.
Yes, so we're going to talkabout.
I want to definitely come backto like how you made it an
Amazon bestseller and what wentinto that, but I kind of want to
take you all the way back tothe very starting line.
So can you talk about wherethis idea came from and how you
(05:53):
knew you wanted to turn thisidea into a novel and things
like that?
Speaker 1 (05:57):
Absolutely so.
Actually, this story came to meback in high school and I was
always told you know, writing isa difficult career.
You won't ever make it Like,don't do it.
So I ended up going a wholedifferent career path and then
later in life I ended up havingan opportunity to actually
(06:20):
explore going about a writingcareer and pick the story back
up in my head.
And now we're here.
Speaker 2 (06:28):
That's so fun.
So, all the way back from, like, high school days to fast
forward, you went in the realworld, which I think so much of
us do.
I hate calling it the realworld, because I think writing
can be our real world too.
But you did the thing most ofus do we get the job.
We kind of put down writing fora while and come back to it.
And we actually met when youhad a draft.
(06:49):
So I'm going to kind of likejump ahead to you.
You wrote the draft, you had theidea, you wrote the draft and
then, in 2023 is when youreached out to me for a
developmental edit.
So I don't know if you canremember like where your head
was at that time, because it'snow two years ago right, more
than two years ago but when youhad written that draft and
(07:09):
you're kind of like okay, nowI'm finally ready to like take
this dream seriously, I'm readyto get it out in the world.
What made you know or what madeyou realize this is the time to
get feedback?
And then, how did you kind ofgo about that?
Speaker 1 (07:21):
Yeah, absolutely so.
Before I even wrote my firstdraft, I did a number of months
of researching the process ofhow to write a book, how to go
about it, and during thatresearch it was highly
recommended to hire adevelopmental editor, which I
fully agreed with.
If you're going to buildsomething, a solid foundation is
(07:44):
critical to that and Iconsidered the developmental
letter process as that criticalfoundation.
Moving forward, Picking thepoint, when I did send it to you
, I decided after edited versionof my first draft.
I knew I was at a point where Ihad explored the story enough,
(08:05):
but I knew I needed feedback tomake sure I was going in the
right direction or things Ineeded to cut in that process.
So it was yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:16):
And that's kind of how I think it happens for a lot
of people is they go out andthey're reading the articles,
they're getting the books andthey're listening to podcasts
and doing all the things.
So they know this is what I'maiming for.
And then they write a draft andthey're like my draft doesn't
quite match what I know itshould.
I just don't know how to get itthere.
And that's, like you said,exactly what a developmental
editor will do.
(08:36):
So I'm so glad you reached outand then I went back and looked
at kind of your draft and justsome of the notes I left you and
things like that, because we'regoing to go down memory lane
for a second.
But if I had to summarizebecause I know that listeners
find this really interestinglike well, we'll talk about this
.
So, like A, what was it?
(08:57):
Like B, what did you do withthe feedback and things like
that?
So first, I guess let me askyou as a person in general, how
are you with receiving feedback?
Like, was it scary to thinkabout getting it?
Were you looking forward to it?
Tell me about that.
Speaker 1 (09:08):
A mix of emotions.
So so yes and no on all that.
Personally, I think receivingespecially professional feedback
is absolutely important.
I highly recommend it toanybody going through the
process.
I highly recommend it toanybody going through the
process.
However, receiving the feedbackfor something that you've
(09:29):
poured your heart and soul intoand spent, you know, months over
, and everything it's so hard.
It's rough.
I will not lie.
I would highly recommend tryingto distance yourself as much as
you can before you receive thatfeedback so that way you can
take it positively, because anyeditor that you hire is only
(09:52):
trying to improve your story,how you tell it, and so that you
can get the best version of itout there into the world.
Speaker 2 (10:01):
Yeah, and I think it's so interesting because
sometimes writers think like ifI just become a better writer,
then getting feedback will beeasy, and most of the time I'm
like I don't think it ever getseasy.
I think you just kind of shiftyour mindset around it, because
even, like for me, when I getfeedback on my work, because
people always ask me like, well,you're an editor, do you need
an editor?
And I'm like, yeah, I do.
And every you know, every timeI get feedback, there's still
(10:30):
that like, oh, I wish I hadnailed it, you know, I wish I
had done better.
So I think it's very normal tofeel that way and I love to hear
you talk about it, just tonormalize that a little bit more
.
So for any listeners that arelike, yeah, I don't love it, but
I know it's necessary, that'spretty normal.
Speaker 1 (10:40):
Oh yeah, no.
Speaker 2 (10:41):
Yeah, yeah, so, okay.
So I kind of took some keypoints of like things I told you
in the editorial letter and ifI were to summarize it's, I
think the biggest thing thatyour draft needed was some work
on the antagonist.
Do you remember that from thatexperience?
Speaker 1 (11:02):
Yes, and hopefully in the final inspiration it came
out better.
However, I think I struggledthe most because I had planned
this as a three book series andI didn't want to give too much
away, I guess, and so hearingthat feedback was very important
to be able to say no, no, no.
It's needed for the reader tounderstand the world and go from
(11:24):
there.
Speaker 2 (11:25):
I'm sure I'm sure I haven't finished reading the new
version but I already washoping.
Through it I'm like, ooh, thisis so good, so I feel confident.
But a couple of the specificthings was like we need to
sharpen, like what does thisantagonist actually want?
Why do they want it?
I just needed to understandthat more and there are so many
benefits to doing that.
Because if we look at kind ofthe other feedback I gave, it
(11:46):
was like your main character isgreat, but she could use a
little more agency here andthere and all of that really
ties back to just how sheunderstands the stakes and like
what the antagonist is trying todo.
So you know and it's interestingthat you reminded me you're
writing a series because thishappens often we try to spread
things out and sometimes it'slike, yes, we want to spread
(12:07):
things out, obviously becausethe antagonist is the
overarching series antagonist,but we still need them to have a
clear goal, clear motivation,clear plan in book one, book two
and book three.
So I can't wait to see how youhandle that.
But I'd say that's the biggestthing.
That my notes said is justclarify that and it should kind
of shake out all the otherthings.
(12:28):
So why I bring this up is it'spretty cool that, given all the
things that could have gonewrong with your draft, that was
really one of the like thebiggest thing you needed to fix
and you did so much well, sothat's very cool.
Speaker 1 (12:42):
Yeah, it was inspiring when I got your
editorial letter, that all thepositives about it, because I
was terrified that like it wasgoing to be, like what are you
doing?
Why you should quit now?
Speaker 2 (12:55):
No, I know that's what everyone thinks, yeah, they
think they're going to get thisletter.
That's like you should justgive up on writing and it's like
, no, yes, there are going to bethings to improve, but there
are also a lot of things you dowell.
So, and that's what's greatabout editing right Is you fix
the things that need improvementand then you just get better at
the things that are alreadyworking.
So all of that's great and I,like I said, I can't wait to see
(13:18):
where the draft landed.
I got my copy at the timerecording this.
We just got home from vacation,so it was waiting for me when I
got home and I'm going to digin soon, okay.
So, after you got the feedback,I know like we had a phone call,
we brainstormed some things andthen, like I don't know what
happened after that.
So I would love for you to tellus, like, what did you do?
How did you kind of tackle youredits?
(13:39):
How many drafts, if youremember, did that take?
And then, did you work withother editors or beta readers?
Like what was that whole thinglike?
Speaker 1 (13:47):
Yeah, so I did have to take a little bit of time off
for personal issues,unfortunately, but you know life
happens during that process.
But overall, after taking thefeedback you gave me, I
organized it into kind of atracking list and really went
(14:08):
back and flushed out the plotpoints that in the agency and
everything that you pointed outand came up with a different
process of how I plotted thebook and actually has been a
lifesaver for book two and Ibelieve book two will be even
(14:30):
better, I'm like getting aboutit hopefully.
But it really did help thatkind of planning it out.
And so then, after figuring outand plotting out all those
revisions that I did want to do,went back in and revised the
actual draft.
Once I finished revising it, Idid a self-edit again and then
(14:54):
sent it to a line editor.
Oh, sorry, I did forget I didbeta readers.
Wow, I did my beta reading andmy developmental editing
concurrently together, so takingtheir feedback as well within
the developmental revisions.
So that was one process.
(15:14):
And then, after that was done,I sent it to a line editor, then
got their feedback back andkind of did this similar process
of creating a revision trackerand the notes I wanted and then
implementing them into the nextdraft.
Then after that it went to aproofreader.
(15:37):
So all in all I did threeeditors, a round of beta readers
, and that was the process forme that's awesome.
Speaker 2 (15:45):
And so a couple things I want to highlight is
you said like, yeah, getting thefeedback is not always super
fun and of course, there'sthings you're going to need to
work on.
But what you said about howdraft two or book two is already
like such an improvementbecause you got some feedback,
because you developed a newprocess, so it's like, yeah, it
kind of feels scary sometimes,but the benefits are so worth it
(16:06):
to go through that and honeyour process to avoid some of
the things that maybe you neededto do differently in book one,
so that's really cool.
And then you said you did betareading at the same time as
developmental editing.
I think that is really smart aswell, and that's not going to
be the process for every writer,because some writers will need
a developmental edit, adevelopmental edit first, or
(16:27):
they'll decide to do betareading first, depending on
their goals.
When you got the feedback fromthe developmental edit and the
beta reader, were there a lot ofoverlapping things To be honest
.
Speaker 1 (16:38):
Well, yes, yes and no , but more of.
I fully knew that the feedbackI was going to receive from you
was going to be more in-depthand, I guess, more critical to
the story overarching, versusfrom the beta readers.
I knew it was going to be moreof.
Did you actually?
Did things string alongcorrectly?
(17:00):
Were you confused at points?
It was more of a higher levelfeedback from them than I was
expecting, and that was true.
There were a few comments thatI got that actually like I was
surprised by, or like I was likeoh, that's a great point, like,
like, so it was well worth it.
But I would definitely toanybody who's looking to do beta
(17:24):
readers.
Speaker 2 (17:26):
It's just a different form of feedback you'll receive
, depending on how you go aboutit Right, and I love that point
because a lot of people thatdon't know how the process works
are kind of like, oh, I justneed one or I need the other,
and I always recommend both,because the developmental editor
or a book coach whoever you'reworking with they can help you
(17:46):
say okay in this case, margaret,I understand your vision for
the story.
Now how do I help you take thatdraft and make it match your
vision, where the beta readersare saying sometimes they can do
this too, but most timesthey're like this is the story
you're presenting me.
I'm going to share my reactionsand opinions as a reader would,
so it's totally two differentlenses most of the time, which
(18:07):
is really cool and reallyvaluable as a writer.
So, I love that you did that,and so I'm sure, at the same
time, all of this was happeningwith your editors and proof
readers and all this, you werealso working on producing the
book, so like finding coverdesigners and dealing with
formatting and all of that funstuff when, in the process, did
(18:28):
you decide you were going toself-publish?
Speaker 1 (18:30):
So actually it was shortly, shortly before I had my
final call with you, withgetting the feedback.
When I sent it in to you Ihadn't.
I wasn't sure.
But I did more research andkind of read blogs and again,
like you know, there's tons ofinformation out there for
(18:52):
anybody who's wanting to getinto this industry and
definitely take advantage of it.
And just doing the research,weighing the pros and cons, for
me personally, self-publishingcame out as the avenue that just
seemed to best align with myexpertise, my skills, what I
brought to the table.
(19:13):
So, but it's different foreverybody.
Speaker 2 (19:16):
It's totally different and it's you know
there's pros and cons.
Like you said, you're in chargeof everything when you
self-publish, which is great.
It also means there's more workto be done, and you know things
like that.
So I'm going to take you backto what you said earlier, where
you're like I don't regret asingle minute of it, even the
hiccups, and you got to Amazonnumber one bestseller.
(19:36):
So, like you know, these arethe things that when I hear
people say I want toself-publish, it's the things
that people want to achieve andit's you've done it.
So that's, it's just reallycool.
And so I really want to know,like, when you published so you
obviously picked a publisheddate, you did all the steps to
get up to that and we don't haveto go through all of those.
But, like, what did you do thatyou think had the biggest
(19:59):
impact on getting that numberone bestseller flag?
Speaker 1 (20:02):
It was definitely planning out my marketing
strategy, the promotions.
I did as best as I could getthe word out there.
I do think I still have much tolearn and there's building that
audience and platform.
I wish I had done a little bitmore.
You hear that from every debutauthor and authors out there you
(20:25):
wish you had started sooner,that kind of stuff, and it's
true.
But I do think that the avenuesI took did help me do that and
achieve that.
Speaker 2 (20:35):
Yeah, and what are like the two?
If we were to think about allyour marketing efforts, are
there two to three things thateither you love the most or that
move the needle the most.
Speaker 1 (20:44):
So I would say as great as social media is, and
there are some statistics forTikTok of driving book sales.
That's true.
Actually, most of my sales didnot come from social media at
all, more from going topromoting sites and getting onto
(21:05):
their newsletters, doingpodcasts like this.
It's those connections andopportunities led to more sales.
Speaker 2 (21:14):
Right, and that's something in these student
spotlight issues or episodesthat we do.
We keep hearing that listenersright.
So it's like we can't rely onsocial media to sell our books.
We need to do all these otherthings, like build our email
list and use services like didyou use BookBub for the
promotions and NetGalley to getyour stuff in front of ARC
(21:36):
readers and did you do both ofthose?
Speaker 1 (21:38):
things was actually when I did a new release for
less feature with them, and thatwas actually what drove it to
be a bestseller.
So using sites like that anddoing your research of how far
in advance you need to apply forthings, and all that stuff
definitely made a difference forthat.
Speaker 2 (22:01):
And is your background in marketing?
Speaker 1 (22:03):
No, so, as much as I wish it was, no, I did a lot of
research and I learned a lot.
So again, still learning.
Speaker 2 (22:14):
I love that, because earlier you were like, you know,
self-publishing was moretowards my or was in line with
my experience and things likethat.
And some listeners might belike, oh, she must've had a
background in marketing, becauselook at all these amazing
things she did.
No, she didn't.
So you're hearing it fromMargaret no background in
marketing, and look at all thecool things she did.
And this is possible for any ofus listening as well.
(22:34):
So, so cool, Margaret.
And you know one thing that Ihear people talk about when they
think about BookBub and thingslike that, they're like well, if
I list my book for 99 cents orif I put it in this promotion,
I'm probably missing out onmoney, Did you like?
You probably seen that too onthe Internet, but how did you
think about it in a way that gotyou these results?
Speaker 1 (22:55):
Absolutely so.
One of the best advice that Idid find in my research was and
again, this is take this with agrain of salt I guess is forget
about the actual revenue thatyou're going to get for book one
.
Just place it out of your mind.
I know that is scary and itsucks because you're like I want
(23:18):
to make a living doing this.
But, to be honest, book one isnot about that.
It's about getting it out there, finding your audience, and
those readers who will love yourbook and will be giddy for book
two will absolutely buy bookthree and any series that you
write in the future, and doingthat is getting your book out
(23:40):
there by putting it on sale,giving it away for free, and
it's all about what you bring tothe table for those readers,
because anytime you're searchingfor something, it's like as a
customer.
What am I getting out of this?
So a great deal.
You're getting a book fornothing.
(24:01):
It's a great avenue.
Speaker 2 (24:04):
It's a great deal too , for you know you're a debut
author, so the reader doesn'tknow anything about you and they
can, of course, look on theinternet, but they don't have
any of that past experience withyour books.
So they're taking a chance onyou and you're giving it to them
for a good deal.
So it's really a win-win.
And I like how you think aboutit, because you're like look, if
I make money, that's great, butI really need to find my
(24:25):
readers.
And we can all go and look atMargaret's Amazon reviews,
because I was poking around themlast night and almost all of
them were like I can't wait forbook two.
So it's like the things she'sdoing are working and it's
helping her build that readerbase which is so important to
everything you're going to do inthe future.
So I just love, I love all that.
And then you said you're alsogoing on podcasts, which I think
(24:47):
is great, because there's atheme in all these things you're
doing it's exposure and it'strying to get your book in front
of the right readers and like,yes, social media can do that,
but it actually takes a lot morework to get the result.
Speaker 1 (24:59):
Yeah, so I, to be honest, I could be on social
media a lot more posting everyday, and it's a different.
It's another job.
It truly is, and as a writer, Iwant to focus on my writing.
So I do a schedule where I onlypost a certain amount of days.
I still build my platform, butI know it's not going to be
(25:23):
overnight and it's going to takeyears.
And that's okay with me,because I know that I'm also
building my audience in otherindustries and platforms and
everything that actually end upbringing more to the table for
me.
Speaker 2 (25:40):
Yeah, and I love that's how you're thinking about
it.
And there's a lot of writerswho they try to do things on
social media, like they try toget the results that you're
getting from these other avenues, and then they feel defeated
because they're like socialmedia doesn't work and it's like
I mean kind of, but also areyou doing all the other things
that actually move the needle?
And then what's your goal inthe first place?
(26:00):
Is it to make thousands ofdollars on your first book, and
is that realistic?
So I think you're just such agood example of like you've done
the research, you'reprioritizing the right things
and look at the results you'vehad so far, I mean that's great,
yeah.
And like you said earlier,you're like I don't regret a
thing, like yes, there arehiccups maybe along the way, but
you're having fun, you'reenjoying it and you don't regret
(26:22):
a thing, so I love it.
Speaker 1 (26:23):
Yeah, honestly, the lessons learned stick with you
more.
And if the my book had goneperfectly quote unquote like I
wouldn't have learned as muchand I wouldn't have grown like
like your protagonist, you'retrying to grow and, you know,
become better, and I honestly amthankful for the hiccups that I
(26:45):
had, because I wouldn't be whoI am today without them.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (26:49):
So I love that you have such a good mindset on
everything and so, speaking of,like, big lessons or kind of key
takeaways they don't all haveto be stumbling blocks or bad
things but if you were to likethink about Margaret before the
adult version of you went backand tackled this book, because
we know you started it when youwere younger, but what like were
there?
Is there anything you wouldhave said to yourself or any
(27:10):
lessons you would have like?
Would you like to impart onthat previous version of
Margaret if you had the chance?
Speaker 1 (27:18):
Yeah, absolutely.
There's definitely tons ofthings, but I think the more
important ones are your writingjourney is a marathon.
It's not a sprint.
You know life happens.
You got to balance it and doyour best with it.
Another one is trying todevelop a thick skin.
I think for traditionalpublishing, you definitely do
(27:41):
one if you're querying agents,but for self-publishing, I think
developing a thick skin comeswhen you actually publish your
book and market it.
Developing a thick skin comeswhen you actually publish your
book and market it and you're sovulnerable in those moments of
putting something you've workedyour heart and soul for out into
the world, and people can tearit to shreds.
(28:02):
So it's important to develop athick skin.
Speaker 2 (28:06):
And, if I can pause you there, because I want to ask
you if you're having a certainexperience that I've seen other
writers have.
I think it's exactly what yousaid, that traditionally, if you
traditionally publish, you'regoing to have that experience up
front when you're queering anddoing that.
And then if you self-publish,it's really when those reviews
start coming in and there are somany reasons why people will
leave weird or bad reviews.
(28:27):
Like another writer I work with, she got a review on her book,
which is a sci-fi, and it waslike I didn't like this book.
Everything about it wasterrible.
I don't really read sci-fi andit's like well then, why did you
pick this book up?
So sometimes it's like you haveto know that you need to parse
through that stuff.
But also there are so manythings to think about Because if
(28:49):
you're going to work withinfluencers or like anyone in an
ARC campaign, advanced readercopy campaign, those people tend
to be a little harsher or alittle like less giving of the
five-star reviews, even thoughthey might leave you a glowing
review in the text, right.
And then there's like thefriends and family that just
leave all positives becausethey're friends and family.
So it's like there's so manydifferent things and for other
(29:11):
writers that I've worked with,it seems like sometimes those
things come in waves.
So it's like you might get allthe family and friend five stars
and you feel really good fortwo days and then influencer
reviews start coming in and youfeel terrible for three days,
you know, and it's like kind ofa roller coaster, and you're
also so tired because you justwrote, edited and published an
(29:33):
entire book and you're focusingall these marketing efforts
right.
So it's kind of like, yes,thick skin, but also like
consider the context and alsotake care of yourself, because
if you're burnt out,everything's going to feel 40
times worse.
Speaker 1 (29:44):
Oh my gosh, you just like explained like your life,
but specifically like the twoweeks leading up to actually
publishing my book, because Iwas going through the ARC reader
process and like all that stuffand I vividly remember getting
it.
It was one of my first reviewsand my book is a young
(30:05):
adult-based book and the reviewwas like did not finish because
it was a YA.
That was too YA.
Speaker 2 (30:15):
And I was like if you're, Is that a compliment or
an insult?
Speaker 1 (30:18):
I was like if you're looking for, if you're reading a
YA, you should expect it'sgoing to be geared towards a YA
y a on it anyways.
Yeah, so it was um a littledefeating.
Speaker 2 (30:38):
But then other more positive and yeah, feedback came
through and other reviews andstuff, so like, yeah, it's
definitely a roller coasterthough it's hard too, because
when you're writing and doingall the like execution tasks,
it's like just take it day byday, you know, hour by hour, and
then when you get into thereviews, it's like you almost
need to step out of that andlook at it as a whole.
Because if you look at it hourby hour and then when you get
into the reviews, it's like youalmost need to step out of that
and look at it as a whole,because if you look at it hour
by hour, you're going to feelvery like manic, right, because
one hour things are great andyou're getting all these good
(30:59):
reviews, and then the next hourit's like you get that one that
just punches you in the gut forwhatever reason, and then maybe
you go to sleep with thatfeeling and the next day is
totally different.
So it is a roller coaster.
But I love asking people aboutthis particular experience,
because the more we all talkabout it, the more we realize
it's not us, it's just theprocess, right?
Absolutely.
(31:20):
Thank you for sharing that.
And then did you want to talkabout you?
Speaker 1 (31:23):
I know you had some other lessons feeds into what we
were just talking about iswhich really, really helped me
through this process wascelebrating your wins and
accomplishments, no matter howsmall they are, from just
finishing your first draft tobooking your first book
(31:44):
promotion and doing itsuccessfully, and getting
through that process likecelebrate them all because this
industry and this writing careerit can be isolating and it can
be defeating and there aremoments where you'll be like,
why am I doing this?
And celebrating those momentswill help lift you back up and
(32:08):
really remind you why you'redoing this and why you're so
passionate about it.
Speaker 2 (32:14):
Yeah, Something another writer I work with does
is she keeps a folder on hercomputer and it I can't remember
what she calls it, but it'slike a cute name.
That's basically like shescreenshots all the good things,
whether it's like an email, areview, a text message, whatever
and if she's having a bad dayshe just opens that folder and
she kind of scrolls throughthings and sometimes it's really
(32:35):
easy to ignore, like you know,so-and-so's text message that
says, like I read your book, I'mso impressed, you know, because
you forget that and then youremember the one bad review.
So if you know people listeningever struggle with this, you
could also implement that writerstrategy and keep your little
wins folder just to remind youof good stuff.
Speaker 1 (32:52):
It definitely.
It makes it easier to havethose days, because you're going
to have those days where you'rejust you feel defeated or like
you just struggle with writing,you have that mental block or
something, and it'll help you.
It's okay to feel that way, butthen let it pass you through
you and get back up and keepgoing, yeah, keep going, yeah.
Speaker 2 (33:17):
And was there any more on your list?
Speaker 1 (33:19):
I guess two other ones would be do your research,
it helps and then another.
The last one I would say are inany industry, connections are
key.
So, like today, I'm on yourpodcast because it's your
connection, and so it'simportant to be mindful of the
(33:42):
people you meet, and you neverknow where they'll lead you to
too, and it's also about whatyou bring to the table for them
and how you contribute to themor the world in general.
Speaker 2 (33:59):
Yeah, and it's so fun thinking about connections too,
because you just never knowwhere they're going to come from
.
I was already thinking, as youwere talking through some of the
stuff earlier, I'm like I wantyou to meet this other writer
that I work with, because youguys are similar vibes, you have
similar goals, you're doingsimilar things and just thinking
of all the knowledge and likesupport you guys could share.
So and then like imagine youguys connect and who knows what
(34:19):
will come out of that.
So, yes, the writing communitycan feel like you write in the
silo, but there are so manypeople and you just never know
like which connections are goingto lead to amazing things.
So I think that's a wonderfullittle piece of advice.
But okay, so, margaret, I knowyou're working on book two and
you said that the process youlearned some stuff from book one
(34:41):
and like you are looking atkind of the outlining and
planning in a different way.
How are you feeling about yourabilities to tackle book two?
Because there's kind of twoways to look at that.
One is like it's a continuationof a series, which makes it
hard sometimes, but also you'vegrown in skill set.
So like, how are things feeling?
Speaker 1 (35:00):
Again.
Giddy, I guess, is the bestword for me right now.
That'll probably go up and downas I continue the process Again
, I know there'll be otherchallenges and lessons to learn
and I'm kind of looking forwardto that because then again I'm
growing.
But I definitely feel likegoing through the process of
(35:20):
getting one book out in theworld, going fully through the
process, has helped meanticipate what it's going to
take to get book two out thereas well, take to get book two
out there as well, and it feelslike roughly, things have gone
smoother.
I say that with hesitationbecause there are other
(35:45):
challenges, but I definitelythink that it has helped me
better flesh out how to approachbook two and better connect
storylines and fun things.
Speaker 2 (35:54):
And you probably have like a base layer of confidence
just because you did it withbook one.
Like you published it, even if,like, we're all going to have
little doubts, like I could havedone this better or I could
have made this more perfect youknow we all have that but you
did it.
So now you've proven you can doit.
And it's like sometimes, likeyou know, you hear the advice
out there just publish it, justfinish the draft, and I think
(36:15):
people you can't understand howyou're going to feel once you do
that.
Until you're in that.
You know that position.
Speaker 1 (36:21):
So is that?
Speaker 2 (36:22):
I can imagine like that's how you're feeling.
Like I did it.
Now I can do it again.
Speaker 1 (36:26):
Yeah, I definitely feel a lot more confidence.
I do.
I struggled a lot with impostersyndrome in book one and
definitely another negative ofsocial media.
If you follow all the big nameauthors and everything and you
see all this amazing stuff, it'sso hard not to compare yourself
(36:47):
to them yourself, to them orother authors who are even just
slightly ahead of you ofpublishing a book or anything
like that.
It's hard not to compare, but Iwould highly encourage you to
not and instead support thoseauthors because they've been in
your shoes, whether you've seenit or anything like that, so
(37:10):
they've been where you are.
And I would also say don'thesitate, be brave, to reach out
and give them support oranything like that, because I
think, surprisingly, I foundwhen in the writing community,
when you reach out to someoneand want to engage with them
genuinely and everything, theywill pour back the support and
(37:35):
tips and tricks because theyjust want to support you as well
, yeah, because they, like yousaid they were in your shoes,
they wanted that, and so nowthey're paying it forward.
Speaker 2 (37:44):
I have actually found that to be true too, and a lot
of the writers I've talked tothey're like all I had to do was
like ask out or reach out andbe a normal human, a normal
human, a normal, nice, normalhuman, and people were really
nice to me in response.
So, like, don't stay in yourisolation bubble.
If anyone's listening andyou're like I need to do this
more, just do it.
Speaker 1 (38:02):
The first time is always the hardest, but the
payoff is way worth it oh yeah,especially like I know I'm more
geared towards being anintrovert, so it it hard to
again vulnerability and puttingyourself out there.
It takes a lot.
So you know, try to be braveand do it.
Speaker 2 (38:22):
Yeah, do it, it pays off, and I think most of us
writers probably identify asintroverts.
So it's kind of like you know,really, at the end of the day,
if you're an introvert reachingout to an introvert, they
understand you, so they're goingto be nice about it anyway.
But I love that and so okay.
So we're going to put a link towhere people can find your book
(38:43):
.
We're going to put a link toyour social media, your website,
but can you just tell everyonewhere to find you like on the
internet, real quick.
Speaker 1 (38:48):
You can find me on my website it's
wwwmargaretmantorcom, and thenfrom there it has links to my
social media.
I'm on Instagram, tiktok.
It has all the links to whereyou can buy my book if you would
want to.
I'd be honored if you wouldread it, and it also has a
contact page.
If you're a writer, you want toconnect about writing, please
(39:12):
feel free to reach out to me.
I I'll give you whatever tipsand tricks I have.
Hopefully they work for you.
You got to find your ownprocess, but you know I'm here,
all right.
Speaker 2 (39:23):
Well, you'll put all the links to that in the show
notes so people can easily findyou and get in touch.
You've shared a lot of wisdomand great tips with us, but any
like final parting words youwant to give to everyone?
No pressure, yeah, no pressure.
Speaker 1 (39:36):
I would say another great avenue of approaching this
industry, this career, thiswriting world.
That is amazing.
Look for genuine connections,meaning whether it's on social
media, doing podcasts, reachingout in the writing community.
Don't go out there just beinglike buy my book, buy my book,
(40:00):
buy my book.
Look for genuine connectionsand how you can contribute to
other people and they'llcontribute right back to you.
It's about a balancedconnection and genuine exchange.
And it's the support you getback.
It fuels you.
Let me just say it fuels you tokeep going and you find the
(40:22):
people that you connect with themost and you can nerd out about
books and the writing processand everything, and it just
makes it all worthwhile.
Speaker 2 (40:36):
Yeah, and not only is that just a wonderful thing in
general, but we're all a littlebit iffy about marketing
sometimes and I know a lot oflisteners are like I don't know
about marketing, I don't want todo it.
The connections make it easierand they're just great to be a
part of, and it makes the wholething more fun and better.
So there's, you know, otherthan the awkwardness at first,
there's really nothing you haveto lose and it just takes some
of that, that isolation, out ofthe process.
(40:57):
So I love that.
I love that.
That's your final parting tipfor us, margaret, but thank you
so much for coming on andsharing all this with us.
I know that listeners are goingto love it.
So I expect you're going to getsome DMs and some messages and,
yeah, just thank you so much.
We'll have to have you comeback on either when you publish
book two or if you ever want toshare an update of how like
promotions for book one went.
(41:18):
We would love to have you back.
Speaker 1 (41:19):
Yes, I would love to do that.
My hope is to publish book twoin the late, late 2025.
So yeah, you heard it herefirst.
Speaker 2 (41:34):
Yeah, I know I love it.
So that's it for today'sepisode.
As always, thank you so muchfor tuning in and for showing
your support.
If you want to check out any ofthe links I mentioned in this
episode, you can find them inthe show notes listed in the
description of each episodeinside your podcast player or at
(41:55):
savannahgilbocom forward slashpodcast.
If you're an Apple user, I'dreally appreciate it if you took
a few seconds to leave a ratingand a review.
Your ratings and reviews tellApple that this is a podcast
that's worth listening to and,in turn, your reviews will help
this podcast get in front ofmore fiction writers just like
you.
And while you're there, goahead and hit that follow button
(42:16):
, because there's going to beanother brand new episode next
week, full of actionable tips,tools and strategies to help you
become a better writer.
So I'll see you next week anduntil then, happy writing.
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