March 4, 2025 • 34 mins
Curious about what it’s like to make the switch from writing for TV to writing books? Or maybe you want to learn writing tips from a screenwriter with decades of experience?
Either way, you’re going to love this episode with Michael Jamin. Michael is a TV writer turned author who just published his collection of personal essays, A Paper Orchestra, in 2023. Since then, his book has won a Reedsy Discovery Editor’s Choice Award and has been named one of Vulture’s “Best Comedy Books of 2024.”
Michael’s many credits include writing for King of the Hill, Beavis and Butt-Head, Just Shoot Me, Wilfred, Maron, Rules of Engagement, Out of Practice, Brickleberry, and Tacoma FD. And in this episode, he’s sharing what it was like making the switch from writing for TV to writing his first book.
In the episode, you’ll hear us talk about things like:
- [03:53] What it was like making the switch from writing for TV to writing his debut memoir—including how Michael’s background in TV both helped and hindered his memoir-writing
- [12:13] The two main reasons Michael’s book died on submission—despite having an agent who loved his book (spoiler alert: it came down to not having a platform and his manuscript lacking a throughline)
- [14:52] Why Michael decided to self-publish, plus what he learned while researching the differences between traditional and indie publishing
- [18:08] How Michael built his audience on Instagram to almost 200k followers by being authentic and sharing his knowledge
- [24:17] Michael's two cents on writing comedy, including some of the most common mistakes writers make when trying to write comedy
Even if you can’t relate to Michael’s TV background, you’ll still get a ton of value from this episode. He knows what it’s like to struggle through your first book—and he’s a great example of what happens if you don’t give up!
🔗 Links mentioned in this episode:
- A Paper Orchestra by Michael Jamin
- Michael Jamin’s Website & Instagram
- How my self-published book became one of Vulture's "Best Comedy Books of 2024"
- What The Hell Is Michael Jamin Talking About?
- Unwritten by Michael Jamin
⭐ Rate + Review + Follow on Apple Podcasts
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👉 Looking for a transcript? If you’re listening on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, scroll down below the episo
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
The thing is that validation from a publisher
comes with a giant asteriskanyway.
If they buy a book, it doesn'tmean you're a great writer, and
if they turn down your book, itdoesn't mean you're not a great
writer.
It just means they don't thinkthey can sell it.
They're out for the money.
That's what they want.
It's a business and I knew it,which is why, like I said, this
is why a D-list celebrity cansell a memoir, but I can't.
It doesn't mean it's any good.
(00:21):
It just means people arecurious about their lives.
I just had to give myself thatvalidation, or at least let it
come from the people whoactually read the books.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
Welcome to the Fiction Writing Made Easy
podcast.
My name is Savannah Gilbo andI'm here to help you write a
story that works.
I want to prove to you thatwriting a novel doesn't have to
be overwhelming, so each week,I'll bring you a brand new
episode with simple, actionableand step-by-step strategies that
you can implement in yourwriting right away.
So, whether you're brand new towriting or more of a seasoned
(00:53):
author looking to improve yourcraft, this podcast is for you.
So pick up a pen and let's getstarted.
In today's episode, I'm sharinga conversation with Michael
Jammin, who is a screenwriterturned memoirist, and whose book
A Paper Orchestra not onlydebuted at number one in six
different categories on Amazon,but was also just named one of
(01:15):
Vulture's best comedy books of2024.
And you're in for a real treattoday, because Michael doesn't
hold anything back.
He shares both the highs andlows of writing this book,
including what it was like tohave his book die on submission,
why he chose to self-publish itdespite having an agent, and
how he made the transition fromwriting for TV to writing a book
(01:37):
.
He also talks about howdifficult it was to find his own
voice after so many years ofwriting for TV and shares his
unique approach to marketing andshowing up on social media in a
real and authentic way.
I know you're going to lovethis episode.
But real quick, before we divein, I want to read you the back
cover copy of Michael's book togive you some context for our
(01:57):
conversation.
So this is what it says on theback cover of A Paper Orchestra
by Michael Jammin.
It says In his debut collectionof personal essays,
emmy-nominated screenwriterMichael Jamin recounts the true
stories of a sensitive, anxiousman searching for the things
that are most important—identity, love, forgiveness and
(02:18):
redemption.
Across between David Sedaris andNeil Simon, michael discovers
his unlikeliest moments ofgrowth.
He fakes his way onto a collegefootball team to experience a
moment of grace, breaks up witha woman because she can't stop
saying just kidding, gets caughtlying during a Hollywood power
meeting and takes advantage ofthe pandemic lockdown to repair
(02:38):
his relationship with hisdaughters.
Audaciously funny, yet achinglypoignant, a Paper Orchestra
will have you rethinking thesmallest, almost forgotten
moments of your life, and wewill, of course, link to the
book and where you can findMichael around the internet.
But without further ado, let'sdive into my conversation with
Michael Jammin about his book APaper Orchestra.
(02:58):
Hi Michael, thank you so muchfor joining me on the Fiction
Writing Made Easy podcast today.
I'm so excited to have you here.
Speaker 1 (03:08):
Thank you for having me.
It's a pleasure.
Speaker 2 (03:10):
I introduced you in the beginning of this episode.
Butavis and Butthead, justShoot Me.
Speaker 1 (03:26):
Rules of Engagement Out of Practice.
Wilfred Marin Brickleberry,tacoma FD, I've sold a ton of
pilots and a couple of movies,but most recently now I have a
book out called the PaperOrchestra.
Speaker 2 (03:40):
Yes, which is what we're here to talk about today.
That's very exciting.
It just came out last year,right yeah, Congratulations on
that.
But I actually want to take youback in time and talk a bit
about your whole writing,editing and publishing journey.
So the first thing that I'mcurious about is what made you
want to make the shift fromwriting for TV to writing a book
a book.
Speaker 1 (04:01):
Well, first, people don't quite understand that, as
a TV writer, people always sayto me oh, you should do a show
about this, you should do aboutthat.
And I'm like you have no ideahow any of this works.
I don't write what I want towrite, I write what people pay
me to write, because this is howI make a living.
I don't decide what I writeabout, and so, which is great,
(04:34):
I'm not complaining, it's a goodway to make a living.
Speaker 2 (04:36):
But after a while I wanted to write what I wanted to
write, and that meant writing abook and writing whatever I
wanted to write, without networknotes, without listening to one
of David Sedaris' books, whichinspired you to tackle this
project, in a way, and you saidone of your first mistakes was
like I write for TV.
How hard can this be?
Do you want to talk about thata little more?
(04:56):
And just like, what was it likewhen you first started to
tackle this project?
Speaker 1 (05:01):
Well, I told my wife I was feeling kind of down about
just the industry as a wholeand just not being able to write
what I wanted to write.
And I told her one day I'mthinking of writing a collection
of personal essays.
But if I did, it would take meyears to write and even if I
sold it I'd barely make anymoney.
And she said, oh, you have to,because if you do you'll find
yourself.
So I was like, okay, so I hadher support and so, yeah, I'd
(05:25):
listened to all of David, ormany of his audio books, but I
hadn't read him yet.
So I went online and I orderedall his paperbacks and I'm
thinking, yeah, how hard is thisgoing to be.
I am a writer and I'm readingone of the first story and I'm
halfway through it.
I'm like, where's he going withthis about?
And he got to the end of thestory and it was such a
surprising and beautiful endingI almost threw the book across
(05:50):
the room.
I was like this is going to beso much harder than I thought,
and so that was then I reallygot to work.
First.
I read everything of his threetimes first to enjoy it, because
reading it is actuallydifferent experience than
listening to it.
And then, and then I read it,and then I read, reread it and
you it, and I just tried tolearn a new genre.
Speaker 2 (06:06):
Yeah, and I love that you did that, because I also
like that part about the articleyou wrote and you said you
really took the time to study itand see, like, how do I put
together this memoir, thiscollection of short stories or
essays, whatever you want tocall it, can you talk about?
Because this is something Itell writers to do as well, like
pick apart your favoritestories.
If there's a technique you like, a cliffhanger, you like
(06:26):
whatever it is, you can studythat and then make the practice
of using it in your own books.
So, can you talk about, like howyou found that valuable or how
studying someone else's workallowed you to kind of live in
that process and create your ownbook?
Speaker 1 (06:40):
Yeah Well, at first I would think, like, what do I
like about his writing?
What does he have anytechniques that I could maybe
incorporate?
And it like I wasn't able tolearn too much from reading him.
I was like it didn't reallyunfold, the like when I read a
script, I can take it apart andI can make better sense of it,
but his writing is a littledifferent and so it wasn't like.
Anyway, I started writingbecause, as a TV writer, I'm a
(07:03):
mimic, so my job is to get thevoice of the show or the voice
of the characters, and I'm goodat that.
But I didn't know what my voicewas, and I didn't need to,
because I set them aside for acouple of weeks and I read them
with fresh eyes and I hated themand to me it sounded like I was
trying to sound like DavidSedaris.
It felt like a pale imitationof what he does.
(07:33):
And then I said, all right, wegot to throw this all out.
And then it really became awhole questioning process of
like.
But everyone acknowledges thathe's like the gold standard.
Who am I to write differentlywhen this is how it's supposed
to be done?
Well, but that's the problem.
Like that's your obligation asa writer, or else you're just
being a knockoff or, you know,no one wants to be a knockoff,
(07:55):
and so first I had to givemyself permission that it was
okay to have my voice, and thenmy voice really went back on.
I really returned to mytraining as a screenwriter in
terms of how I structuredstories.
I structure them very similarto the way I would make a TV
show novel that has like 40scenes.
Speaker 2 (08:25):
Whatever it is treating each of your scenes or
each of your short stories oressays like, it has its own
little structure and it createsthat arc of change from
beginning to end can make a waymore powerful story.
So it's interesting to hear youtalk about that as well.
Well, the thing is, he writesessays and as I was writing mine
, I'm realizing, you know, I'mnot really writing personal
essays, I'm really writing shortstories, that are true, so
(08:45):
there's that difference as well,yeah, which is kind of a big
deal to you know, as you'relooking at something that you're
doing and something thatsomeone else has done.
Sometimes it's also aboutunderstanding what are the
differences and how can I uselike that difference or that
realizing something's differentto my advantage, instead of
saying like I have to do it,just like this person did,
Speaking of voice.
So this is something that a lotof people just find to be this
(09:07):
super nebulous thing.
They're like I don't know whatmy voice is.
I don't even know how to findmy voice.
What did you do to get to thatpoint where you're like this
feels like me.
Speaker 1 (09:16):
First I was writing and then I'd get to a point I
would write a line or a momentin a story and I go, that
doesn't feel real.
That feels like the TV versionof what happened.
What's the true version?
Dive deeper into myself.
What was I really thinking whenI said this?
Because this was so interesting, the stories are true.
And I think back like, well,why would a 10-year-old me have
(09:37):
said or done that?
And I have to think about thesame way I write for a character
on TV.
Why would this character saythat?
Well, why would I have saidthat?
And then I had to really goinside and get to the truth of
how I felt.
And by speaking truthfully youget to your voice and then by
amping it up, maybe like 10%.
Speaker 2 (09:55):
Yeah, I think that's so cool and it's funny because
for you having you're writingabout yourself, it's almost like
you had to dig into theworldview of what was your
worldview at 10 or at 20 or at30, whatever and that's what we
have to do with fictionalcharacters as well.
So super interesting.
I think people are going tolike hearing you say that the
first version I wrote was kindof like a pale imitation of
(10:17):
David Sedaris, or it was likesomething that felt more like me
writing for TV, Because peopledo that.
People ask me all the time Iwrote something and it's so
cheesy or it's so on the noseand it's like that's okay, it's
your first draft and then it'sjust doing the work and figuring
out how to make it better.
Speaker 1 (10:31):
Right.
Speaker 2 (10:32):
They're going to love hearing that you said that, oh,
the first draft not showingyour first draft to anybody.
No one should think that yourfirst draft is good enough to
show to anybody, like that's howyou get better, right yeah, you
have to get it out to make itbetter.
And so the other thing I thinkthey're going to like hearing is
(10:52):
you said when you got to theend of your book, you had to go
back to the beginning, to yournot your first job, but a draft
further along.
You had to go back to thebeginning because you noticed
that your writing had improved,your style had changed.
I find this to be really trueas well, for the writers I work
with is that in the beginningit's kind of like 1.0 of their
voice, their style, theirstructure, whatever, and then by
the end they've reached likethis is what we want it to be.
So they go back to thebeginning and they have a lot
(11:13):
more editing to do on thebeginning typically than the end
.
So do you want to talk aboutthat a little bit?
Speaker 1 (11:18):
Well, and that I totally agree, and that's why
it's so important.
People say I wrote a screenplayor I wrote a book or whatever.
And then what do I do?
I'm like write another one andthen write another one, another
one, write five, Because whenyou finish your fifth book or a
screenplay, then go back andrevisit your first one and
you'll see how much you've grownas a writer, instead of
spending 10 years of lifepolishing this one.
(11:39):
Work right.
Five different works.
Work right, Five differentworks.
Speaker 2 (11:43):
Yeah, totally, I'm on that same page and it's, you
know, the first thing we produce.
A lot of the times it's likeour book baby, or a script baby.
It's the thing that we reallylove, and people will waste 10
years on that same thing insteadof coming back to it with fresh
eyes and then making thatversion match what's in their
head.
So I love that.
You just said that and I thinkpeople are going to latch onto
that.
So then let's fast forward alittle bit.
(12:05):
You're done with the book andyou're like okay, so at this
point I need to do somethingwith it.
What were your publishing goals?
Like right, when you finishedit?
Speaker 1 (12:13):
Well, I wanted to get it traditionally published
because I just thought like, Ithought like that's the feather
in the cap, that's the stamp ofapproval from somebody who, from
a decision maker.
Right we do.
(12:37):
They're in new york, and so Itold him what I was doing.
He goes, let me arrange a phonecall.
So he set up a phone call withthis book agent in new york, now
that he didn't have to sign meas a writer, but he did have to
take the call because I am aclient, right.
So I told him what I was doing.
He goes well, send me somepieces, okay, great.
So I emailed him.
I maybe like three or fourstories and uh, I didn't hear
back from for months, likeeasily six months, and I didn't
even back from him for monthslike easily six months, and I
didn't even care.
I'm still writing this thing.
(12:58):
I had to finish the rest of thebook.
So what difference does it make?
I'm not ready anyway.
Six months later he calls me.
He's like out of the blue.
He's like I'm so sorry, it tookme this long.
If I had known, do you have anymore?
I go yeah, I'm almost done,here's the rest of the, here's
the book.
And at that point he was likelet's do it, I love it, let's
sell it, let's just take it out.
And I was like you don't havenotes, like nope, let's sell it.
(13:19):
So we took it out to publishersand I got you know.
Within a couple of weeks I wasrejected by all of them.
No-transcript can sell a memoireven though they didn't even
(14:04):
write the damn thing, becausethey have that following.
They probably even read theirmemoir and we know this is true.
So I started going on socialmedia and just talking about my
experiences as a TV writer andby doing that I built up a
really very large followingpretty fast on Instagram and
TikTok and Facebook and allthose platforms.
And then at that point I waslike, well, why do I need a
(14:26):
publisher?
Like, what did they bring tothe table?
Well, they'll help you.
You know they'll get you inBarnes and Noble.
Okay, but no one goes to Barnesand Noble anymore.
You know people buy their booksonline.
You know they can do that.
What else can they do?
Well, though, that's kind of it.
They don't really help youmarket the book.
They expect you to market thebook, which is why they say
platform drives acquisition.
They don't sell the book, theyexpect the author to sell the
(14:48):
book.
I'm like, okay, but you'regetting most of the money for
the.
I just know it.
It would have been very low.
So I was like I didn't.
I didn't see the benefit, otherthan like they make a lot of
publishers make a lot ofdecisions.
The title they can influencethe title, they can influence
the cover of the book, and thoseare things I didn't want to
actually compromise, cause I allalong I was talking to people
(15:12):
in the publishing industry andthey'd say well, this is what I
would change, this is how Iwould do it differently to sell
more books.
To sell more books and I'm likeyou all have a valid point Like
the title of my book is a paperorchestra.
What does that really mean?
Well, when you read the bookyou'll understand what it means.
But the title they wanted me tohave was like something wacky
because I'm a sitcom writersomething jokity McJoke joke.
(15:33):
And I was like but that's notthe book I want to put out.
I don't want to write that book.
This is the book I wanted towrite.
So every step of the way I waslike because none of this was a
money-making venture for me.
They wanted it to be money.
I get why they wanted to makemoney, but it wasn't for me.
To me, it was just aboutwriting something good.
And so at the end I was like,well, I have to put it out
myself.
There's really no reason Ican't sell it to them.
Speaker 2 (15:56):
Yeah, and I think this is a common thing a lot of
authors these days are facing isthey think that if they sign
with a traditional publisher andthey get an agent and all these
things, that the marketing isgoing to be taken care of and
they'll skyrocket to success.
And that's just not true.
And so then it becomes okay.
Well, what are my other options?
And it's indie publishing,which I think personally is a
great option.
(16:16):
I'm with you.
I would love creative controlover my own stuff and you know
we all have the power toskyrocket ourselves to success.
But something you said in thatSubstack piece which we're going
to link to in the show notes,is that even after realizing all
of this and coming to thatdecision of traditional
publishing is not for me.
You had that little glimmer oflike.
I still crave that approval andthis is super common.
(16:40):
Like all the writers I talk to,they do the research you've
done, they've weighed the prosand cons and they still want
that validation.
So can you talk about that alittle more and maybe offer
aspiring authors who arelistening to this podcast any
words of wisdom on dealing withthose feelings?
Speaker 1 (16:56):
The thing is that validation from a publisher
comes with a giant asterisk.
Anyway, it doesn't mean you'rea great writer.
If they buy a book, it doesn'tmean you're a great writer.
And if they turn down your book, it doesn't mean you're not a
great writer.
It just means they don't thinkthey can sell it.
They're out for the money.
That's what they want.
Speaker 2 (17:11):
It's a business, yeah no-transcript won some awards,
(17:42):
which we'll talk about in asecond.
But let's go back to where youwere like okay, I needed to
build this platform either waybecause I was going to be
responsible for marketing mybook and finding readers.
I feel like some listenersmight be thinking well, okay,
this guy like has connections inTV, he's written for TV.
How can I build a platform when, like, I don't feel the same as
this guy?
Speaker 1 (18:08):
Do you have any thoughts on that?
Absolutely so.
When I go on Instagram orTikTok and I talk about writing,
sometimes I talk about how Iprocess and you know, and that
is valuable because I'm a writer, a TV writer, so I can share
stuff that maybe they don't know.
But if I were like a 22 yearold woman just out of college,
she can talk about on socialmedia what it's like to be a 22
year old woman and the strugglesthat she has on a daily basis
way more authentically than Ican from her point of view.
(18:30):
And so that's what you shareabout.
You share authentically, fromyour perspective, of all the
hard stuff you're going through,like I think your early
twenties is like the hardesttime of your life.
So share all that stuff andyour struggles and that's
interesting, it's interestingfor anyone.
If you can, if you can do itwell, and if you can't do it
well, then then you might not bea good writer, you know.
(18:51):
That's the problem.
Speaker 2 (18:52):
So yeah, and it's interesting too, because
sometimes, like you've talkedabout this struggle and we'll
dig into this a little bit morebut you've talked about the
struggle of people see you oneway and you kind of want them to
see you as I'm an artist, I'man author, and so you had to
shift a little bit of yourtactics on how you approach
social media and building yourplatform and stuff like that.
As true, with the authors Iwork with, where they'll
(19:18):
approach it by sharing writingtips or a peek behind the
process, whatever, and then theyattract other writers, not
necessarily the readers.
So I tend to tell people okay,well, how do we give potential
followers, readers whatever, thesame vibe that your book is
giving them?
If you're writing romance, howdo we give them those happily
ever after feelings?
Or if you're writing a thriller, what can we share?
That kind of gives the readerthat experience and attracts
(19:39):
them.
And I think that's somethinglike we could say about your
platform.
Maybe is that the vibe of yourbook, which is it's funny, but
it's also like poignant, right,and there's a niceness to it,
like an I'm an every man kind ofvibe.
That's how you show up onsocial media, so the energy is
matching.
Have you thought about it thatway?
Speaker 1 (20:00):
Originally, this is a problem.
You know that.
My daughter pointed out Because, like I said, I don't want to
be seen as a screenwriting guruor as a writing expert.
So I did create a podcast it'scalled Unwritten, by Michael
Jammin, and I post once a week.
And so this week I posted abouthey, I'm working on a story.
And.
And so this week I posted abouthey, I'm working on a story.
And this is the problem I'mgoing through creating, writing
this story.
So they think of me not as ateacher, but I'm a writer.
(20:21):
I'm just like you.
This is the problem I'm facing.
On my website, I describe allmy work.
My neighbor helped me with thisbecause she's in marketing, or
she was.
She said if you had to describeyourself three words, what
would it be in your work?
I said, well, clever,vulnerable.
And what was the other?
one, I don't know, it might'vebeen introspective maybe, or
something like that.
Speaker 2 (20:42):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:42):
And so all of my work is that.
So when I'm sharing my, whenI'm talking on, I'm trying to be
funny, I'm trying to make youlaugh, I'm trying to give you a
laugh, or I'm trying to, and allof it is authentic.
And people sometimes people say, oh, he's so humble.
No, I'm just telling you thetruth, man, I'm not going to be
something, I'm not.
Speaker 2 (20:58):
that's the difference and I think almost that takes a
layer of stress out of it, in away like if you could just show
up and be yourself and peopleresonate with it.
It doesn't mean you're likepushing your book every day or
being sales or marketing, andthat's what I think a lot of
writers feel like.
If I have to build thisplatform, I have to be a
marketing genius or salesy orwhatever, and it's like not
really.
That's not really what's goingto work.
Speaker 1 (21:19):
Yeah, it's not, you know, but I have to say, like
when I first started pushing thebook, when I came out and I was
talking about it and then Idon't talk about all the time I
you know maybe one out of everyfive posts or 10 or whatever
like that and then some guy waslike, hey, I about it.
Now I said, well, I could seewhy you'd be tired and I did a
post about this.
I could see why that would turnyou off.
(21:40):
That's getting old I go.
But just so you know me, beingon this platform is the only
reason why I'm on here.
Speaker 2 (21:47):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (21:47):
So if I'm not selling books, like then forget it,
I'll go away and do somethingelse, because that's the
literally why I'm here and I'mjust being honest with everybody
.
And then people bought books,yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:56):
It's so funny.
Yeah, just a little honest peekbehind the scenes.
Speaker 1 (21:59):
Yeah, I'm not here because I love posting every day
.
Speaker 2 (22:03):
Yeah, I think a lot of the fellow writers who are
listening to this will be likeyeah, us too.
We don't love being glued toInstagram.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:09):
Right.
Speaker 2 (22:22):
But so, as a result of kind of all this marketing
effort, I know you've built theplatform, you've guested on
podcasts and done all thesethings, but I know that your
book Paper Orchestra debuted atnumber one on Amazon Bestseller
in multiple categories and thenrecently it won the Readsie
Discovery Editor's Choice Awardand Vulture named it as one of
the best comedy books of 2024,which is amazing.
Speaker 1 (22:34):
Yeah, that was really cool because I don't have the
weight of a publisher behind me.
It's because someone one of myfollowers started, you know,
read my book and loved it and hewrote he writes for a vulture.
And I was like, damn, that's,that's really cool.
Speaker 2 (22:47):
Yeah, it's so cool and I love that.
It just shows how your effortsworked out, because if you had
not been showing up and being,you know, your humble, honest
and authentic self, thoseresults might not have happened.
Right, if you'd been too scaredto start the platform, too
scared to talk about your book,which a lot of people are, where
(23:09):
a lot of us artists areintroverts.
Speaker 1 (23:09):
So I think that's super cool.
Yeah, I'm introvert as well.
I don't like.
Yeah, none of this is I'dprefer not to talk on.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (23:17):
Yeah, but it's important to getting your story
out there.
So, before I pivot cause I dowant to pivot and ask you some
questions about actually writingwriting a book or a screenplay
or whatever Is there anythingelse you want to share, just
about like your book or theirjourney from unpublished to
published?
Speaker 1 (23:33):
Well, one of the things that I love about David
Sedaris is that he tours and heperforms.
He goes from city to city I'veseen him a number of times and
then afterwards he signs andsells books and all that I go.
Yeah, that's part of what Iwanted to do, and so now that's
what I get to do.
So we're touring as a one-manshow.
I have shows in Seattle comingup in February four shows and
(23:54):
then one show in Berkeley,california, and then we're doing
the Hollywood Fringe Festivalin June and then maybe Edinburgh
Fringe Festival in June.
So, yeah, but that's part ofthe fun is that I get to turn it
into a one-man show and performit, because I've been behind
that camera for 28 years.
So it's like now.
I can, and it's a wholedifferent skill set that I have
to learn.
Speaker 2 (24:15):
That's awesome and probably a little scary.
I know you just said you're anintrovert, so does that come
into play?
Like how do you manage that?
Or is it all just about restingafterwards?
Speaker 1 (24:30):
Yeah, it's about like afterwards people want to talk
to me, Some people want to hugme and I'll take pictures,
that's sure.
And then like hey, come out fordrinks with me.
That's the no.
I want to go home and sit in aroom in the dark, Like it's just
too much for stimulation for me.
Speaker 2 (24:39):
Yeah, I know that's how I am too.
I'm fine doing the publicthings, but then I need to rest
and balance myself out.
Speaker 1 (24:45):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (24:46):
So, okay, I want to pivot this a little bit, because
originally I did plan ontalking to you about more like
how do we write for screenplaysversus TV or versus books,
things like that.
But then I read on your substack that you're like I don't
want to be viewed always as thishow-to person, but I also can't
I can't really not ask youabout writing a little bit of
(25:07):
comedy, because this is aquestion I get asked.
A lot is like how do we add alayer of comedy into our books?
How do we write characters thatare funny?
Do you have any tips on that?
Speaker 1 (25:16):
because this I'm not well versed in how to help
people with that well, the thingis, if someone's not funny, if
they're not naturally funny,it's like it's not something you
can just do, and the problemproblem is when people get into
it.
If they're not naturally funnyperson don't write comedy, it's
okay.
Write drama, there's a hugeaudience for that.
The problem is when people whoare not funny try to write
comedy and then they they putwhat we call in the business
(25:39):
clams.
They put jokes in the scriptthat are not theirs.
Said no one ever.
That's a clam.
I didn't have that on my 2025bingo card.
That's a clamp.
These are jokes that we hear onthe internet that are not our
own, and we just hear them andso we feel like we can put them
into our writing.
But you can't.
You cannot do that.
It's the job of the writer tofind new ways to say old things,
(26:03):
not to rip off the internet andput into it.
No one's going to laugh at it,they're just going to think
you're unoriginal.
You know, uh, I'm switching youto.
Decaf said no one ever likethese are all clams and you just
cannot put it in your work.
Speaker 2 (26:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (26:18):
But if you think you have the funny bone and people
say, hey, you're funny, then theway strong attitudes are always
funny.
So if you talk about the souphow was the soup?
It was okay that's not funny.
No, if the soup was the mostglorious soup you've ever had,
that can be funny, becausethat's an extreme.
This was the worst soup I'veever tasted like dog shit, right
(26:39):
.
Speaker 2 (26:44):
That's going to be funny because it's an extreme.
But when the soup is okay, it'snot funny, right?
And it's kind of same withcharacters.
When they're bland and boring,they're not interesting.
They don't even have thecapability of being funny or
dramatic because they're justblah.
But you also, I know on I thinkit was on your Instagram you
talked about how, like thecomedy in a character comes from
who that character is too.
So you have to do the work todevelop them, and it's not just
like giving this person jokes orchoosing to give this other
(27:06):
person jokes.
It's like it has to come fromwho they are, their worldview,
how they approach things, whatthey believe and how that either
complements or contrasts whatother characters believe and do.
Right, yes, exactly.
Speaker 1 (27:19):
Yeah, it's not, they're not trying it.
A character is never trying tobe funny and when you see that
it's always cringy, thecharacter is just being
themselves.
And when you see that it'salways cringy, the character is
just being themselves.
And you know, when LarryDavid's funny on Curb your
Enthusiasm, it's because he'ssaying exactly what he's
thinking and he's like youshouldn't be saying any of that
and he's judgmental and he's notforgiving and that's all funny.
Speaker 2 (27:40):
Yeah, and I think it is hard to write comedy.
Speaker 1 (28:00):
I don't know if you would agree.
But I think for the writers Iwork with it's one of the
harderliner has to be funny inorder for the story to be funny.
So if you pitch the logline andit's not funny, then the story
won't be funny.
You just can't make it funny.
You can put all the jokes youwant into it, but the core of it
is not a funny idea.
Speaker 2 (28:17):
Right, and we talk about writing loglines a lot on
this podcast and how they'rebeneficial for so many reasons.
But you just added a new layerto it that if you can't see the
comedy or the whatever feelingright, the drama, the romance,
whatever, it's not going to work.
Right right, okay, so thanks forindulging me with that.
And then I guess my lastquestion for you is if you were
(28:42):
to just give advice either toyour younger self, before you
started writing this book, orany other aspiring author who is
either about to start theirwriting journey or is maybe in
the middle of the messy middleof their first book, what advice
would you give them?
Speaker 1 (28:53):
Well, I would say it's supposed to take a long
time.
So when I was in college, I wasrejected from the creative
writing program twice and I wasdevastated.
I was like it felt like at theage of 19 or 20, whatever it was
that they were saying no, youdon't get to be a writer.
And I wanted to be a writer andI felt like they were just
ruling out my future.
Fortunately, I didn't listen tothem and so moved to LA,
(29:14):
studied screenwriting, became aTV writer and then when I
finished this book and my agentcalled and say he loved it right
, is this before we submitted itto publishers?
He loved it and I took a walkaround the block and I was
almost choked up with tearsbecause it occurred to me at
that moment, even though I'vebeen I've had a successful
career as a TV writer.
This is the book that I wantedto write when I was in college.
(29:36):
These are the stories I wantedto tell, but I didn't know how
to, and so it took people and Ifelt like I was honoring that 20
year old kid I was.
That was his dream.
That was his dream.
My dream turned into somethingelse, but at least I realized
his dream as well.
Speaker 2 (29:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (29:51):
It took me whatever two and a half years to write
the book, but it really took me26 years to learn how to write
the book.
Speaker 2 (29:58):
Yeah, Well, and I mean, you put all your life
experience into it, right?
So totally yeah yeah.
I love that.
So, yeah, don't give up.
And it's proof in the puddingtoo.
On this book, Paper Orchestra,you said it died in the
acquisition phase.
Right, Nobody wanted it, itdied on submission.
And you didn't give up.
And look what's happened since.
Speaker 1 (30:17):
So very cool.
Speaker 2 (30:19):
Thank you so much, michael, for coming on the show.
We will link to all the thingsyou talked about your Substack
article, your tour.
We'll put some links to yourwebsite and everything and your
book in the show notes.
But anything else you want tosay to the audience before we
let you go, that's it.
Speaker 1 (30:32):
You're doing a wonderful service to people.
You're really helping them withtheir words, and that's
important, because everyonewants to feel seen and heard,
and that's what you help them do.
Speaker 2 (30:41):
Well, thank you for saying that, that's the goal.
We want everyone to feel seenand heard and we want everyone
to feel like writing their bookis that possible dream that they
can achieve if they don't havecollege degrees, if they don't
have any other artistic proofI'm using air quotes, you can't
see me but artistic proof thatthey can.
We want everyone to feel likethey can do it.
So I appreciate you coming onand sharing your story and we'll
(31:03):
have to maybe have you comeback and talk more about typical
screenwriting stuff someday.
Speaker 1 (31:07):
Anytime you want, anytime you want.
Speaker 2 (31:09):
All right, thank you.
Speaker 1 (31:10):
Thank you again.
Speaker 2 (31:13):
So that's it for today's episode.
As always, thank you so muchfor tuning in and for showing
your support.
If you want to check out any ofthe links I mentioned in this
episode, you can find them inthe show notes listed in the
description of each episodeinside your podcast player or at
savannahgilbocom forward slashpodcast.
If you're an Apple user, I'dreally appreciate it if you took
(31:34):
a few seconds to leave a ratingand a review.
Your ratings and reviews tellApple that this is a podcast
that's worth listening to and,in turn, your reviews will help
this podcast get in front ofmore fiction writers just like
you.
And while you're there, goahead and hit that follow button
, because there's going to beanother brand new episode next
week, full of actionable tips,tools and strategies to help you
(31:54):
become a better writer.
So I'll see you next week anduntil then, happy writing.
The thing is that validation from a publisher
comes with a giant asteriskanyway.
If they buy a book, it doesn'tmean you're a great writer, and
if they turn down your book, itdoesn't mean you're not a great
writer.
It just means they don't thinkthey can sell it.
They're out for the money.
That's what they want.
It's a business and I knew it,which is why, like I said, this
is why a D-list celebrity cansell a memoir, but I can't.
It doesn't mean it's any good.
(00:21):
It just means people arecurious about their lives.
I just had to give myself thatvalidation, or at least let it
come from the people whoactually read the books.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
Welcome to the Fiction Writing Made Easy
podcast.
My name is Savannah Gilbo andI'm here to help you write a
story that works.
I want to prove to you thatwriting a novel doesn't have to
be overwhelming, so each week,I'll bring you a brand new
episode with simple, actionableand step-by-step strategies that
you can implement in yourwriting right away.
So, whether you're brand new towriting or more of a seasoned
(00:53):
author looking to improve yourcraft, this podcast is for you.
So pick up a pen and let's getstarted.
In today's episode, I'm sharinga conversation with Michael
Jammin, who is a screenwriterturned memoirist, and whose book
A Paper Orchestra not onlydebuted at number one in six
different categories on Amazon,but was also just named one of
(01:15):
Vulture's best comedy books of2024.
And you're in for a real treattoday, because Michael doesn't
hold anything back.
He shares both the highs andlows of writing this book,
including what it was like tohave his book die on submission,
why he chose to self-publish itdespite having an agent, and
how he made the transition fromwriting for TV to writing a book
(01:37):
.
He also talks about howdifficult it was to find his own
voice after so many years ofwriting for TV and shares his
unique approach to marketing andshowing up on social media in a
real and authentic way.
I know you're going to lovethis episode.
But real quick, before we divein, I want to read you the back
cover copy of Michael's book togive you some context for our
(01:57):
conversation.
So this is what it says on theback cover of A Paper Orchestra
by Michael Jammin.
It says In his debut collectionof personal essays,
emmy-nominated screenwriterMichael Jamin recounts the true
stories of a sensitive, anxiousman searching for the things
that are most important—identity, love, forgiveness and
(02:18):
redemption.
Across between David Sedaris andNeil Simon, michael discovers
his unlikeliest moments ofgrowth.
He fakes his way onto a collegefootball team to experience a
moment of grace, breaks up witha woman because she can't stop
saying just kidding, gets caughtlying during a Hollywood power
meeting and takes advantage ofthe pandemic lockdown to repair
(02:38):
his relationship with hisdaughters.
Audaciously funny, yet achinglypoignant, a Paper Orchestra
will have you rethinking thesmallest, almost forgotten
moments of your life, and wewill, of course, link to the
book and where you can findMichael around the internet.
But without further ado, let'sdive into my conversation with
Michael Jammin about his book APaper Orchestra.
(02:58):
Hi Michael, thank you so muchfor joining me on the Fiction
Writing Made Easy podcast today.
I'm so excited to have you here.
Speaker 1 (03:08):
Thank you for having me.
It's a pleasure.
Speaker 2 (03:10):
I introduced you in the beginning of this episode.
Butavis and Butthead, justShoot Me.
Speaker 1 (03:26):
Rules of Engagement Out of Practice.
Wilfred Marin Brickleberry,tacoma FD, I've sold a ton of
pilots and a couple of movies,but most recently now I have a
book out called the PaperOrchestra.
Speaker 2 (03:40):
Yes, which is what we're here to talk about today.
That's very exciting.
It just came out last year,right yeah, Congratulations on
that.
But I actually want to take youback in time and talk a bit
about your whole writing,editing and publishing journey.
So the first thing that I'mcurious about is what made you
want to make the shift fromwriting for TV to writing a book
a book.
Speaker 1 (04:01):
Well, first, people don't quite understand that, as
a TV writer, people always sayto me oh, you should do a show
about this, you should do aboutthat.
And I'm like you have no ideahow any of this works.
I don't write what I want towrite, I write what people pay
me to write, because this is howI make a living.
I don't decide what I writeabout, and so, which is great,
(04:34):
I'm not complaining, it's a goodway to make a living.
Speaker 2 (04:36):
But after a while I wanted to write what I wanted to
write, and that meant writing abook and writing whatever I
wanted to write, without networknotes, without listening to one
of David Sedaris' books, whichinspired you to tackle this
project, in a way, and you saidone of your first mistakes was
like I write for TV.
How hard can this be?
Do you want to talk about thata little more?
(04:56):
And just like, what was it likewhen you first started to
tackle this project?
Speaker 1 (05:01):
Well, I told my wife I was feeling kind of down about
just the industry as a wholeand just not being able to write
what I wanted to write.
And I told her one day I'mthinking of writing a collection
of personal essays.
But if I did, it would take meyears to write and even if I
sold it I'd barely make anymoney.
And she said, oh, you have to,because if you do you'll find
yourself.
So I was like, okay, so I hadher support and so, yeah, I'd
(05:25):
listened to all of David, ormany of his audio books, but I
hadn't read him yet.
So I went online and I orderedall his paperbacks and I'm
thinking, yeah, how hard is thisgoing to be.
I am a writer and I'm readingone of the first story and I'm
halfway through it.
I'm like, where's he going withthis about?
And he got to the end of thestory and it was such a
surprising and beautiful endingI almost threw the book across
(05:50):
the room.
I was like this is going to beso much harder than I thought,
and so that was then I reallygot to work.
First.
I read everything of his threetimes first to enjoy it, because
reading it is actuallydifferent experience than
listening to it.
And then, and then I read it,and then I read, reread it and
you it, and I just tried tolearn a new genre.
Speaker 2 (06:06):
Yeah, and I love that you did that, because I also
like that part about the articleyou wrote and you said you
really took the time to study itand see, like, how do I put
together this memoir, thiscollection of short stories or
essays, whatever you want tocall it, can you talk about?
Because this is something Itell writers to do as well, like
pick apart your favoritestories.
If there's a technique you like, a cliffhanger, you like
(06:26):
whatever it is, you can studythat and then make the practice
of using it in your own books.
So, can you talk about, like howyou found that valuable or how
studying someone else's workallowed you to kind of live in
that process and create your ownbook?
Speaker 1 (06:40):
Yeah Well, at first I would think, like, what do I
like about his writing?
What does he have anytechniques that I could maybe
incorporate?
And it like I wasn't able tolearn too much from reading him.
I was like it didn't reallyunfold, the like when I read a
script, I can take it apart andI can make better sense of it,
but his writing is a littledifferent and so it wasn't like.
Anyway, I started writingbecause, as a TV writer, I'm a
(07:03):
mimic, so my job is to get thevoice of the show or the voice
of the characters, and I'm goodat that.
But I didn't know what my voicewas, and I didn't need to,
because I set them aside for acouple of weeks and I read them
with fresh eyes and I hated themand to me it sounded like I was
trying to sound like DavidSedaris.
It felt like a pale imitationof what he does.
(07:33):
And then I said, all right, wegot to throw this all out.
And then it really became awhole questioning process of
like.
But everyone acknowledges thathe's like the gold standard.
Who am I to write differentlywhen this is how it's supposed
to be done?
Well, but that's the problem.
Like that's your obligation asa writer, or else you're just
being a knockoff or, you know,no one wants to be a knockoff,
(07:55):
and so first I had to givemyself permission that it was
okay to have my voice, and thenmy voice really went back on.
I really returned to mytraining as a screenwriter in
terms of how I structuredstories.
I structure them very similarto the way I would make a TV
show novel that has like 40scenes.
Speaker 2 (08:25):
Whatever it is treating each of your scenes or
each of your short stories oressays like, it has its own
little structure and it createsthat arc of change from
beginning to end can make a waymore powerful story.
So it's interesting to hear youtalk about that as well.
Well, the thing is, he writesessays and as I was writing mine
, I'm realizing, you know, I'mnot really writing personal
essays, I'm really writing shortstories, that are true, so
(08:45):
there's that difference as well,yeah, which is kind of a big
deal to you know, as you'relooking at something that you're
doing and something thatsomeone else has done.
Sometimes it's also aboutunderstanding what are the
differences and how can I uselike that difference or that
realizing something's differentto my advantage, instead of
saying like I have to do it,just like this person did,
Speaking of voice.
So this is something that a lotof people just find to be this
(09:07):
super nebulous thing.
They're like I don't know whatmy voice is.
I don't even know how to findmy voice.
What did you do to get to thatpoint where you're like this
feels like me.
Speaker 1 (09:16):
First I was writing and then I'd get to a point I
would write a line or a momentin a story and I go, that
doesn't feel real.
That feels like the TV versionof what happened.
What's the true version?
Dive deeper into myself.
What was I really thinking whenI said this?
Because this was so interesting, the stories are true.
And I think back like, well,why would a 10-year-old me have
(09:37):
said or done that?
And I have to think about thesame way I write for a character
on TV.
Why would this character saythat?
Well, why would I have saidthat?
And then I had to really goinside and get to the truth of
how I felt.
And by speaking truthfully youget to your voice and then by
amping it up, maybe like 10%.
Speaker 2 (09:55):
Yeah, I think that's so cool and it's funny because
for you having you're writingabout yourself, it's almost like
you had to dig into theworldview of what was your
worldview at 10 or at 20 or at30, whatever and that's what we
have to do with fictionalcharacters as well.
So super interesting.
I think people are going tolike hearing you say that the
first version I wrote was kindof like a pale imitation of
(10:17):
David Sedaris, or it was likesomething that felt more like me
writing for TV, Because peopledo that.
People ask me all the time Iwrote something and it's so
cheesy or it's so on the noseand it's like that's okay, it's
your first draft and then it'sjust doing the work and figuring
out how to make it better.
Speaker 1 (10:31):
Right.
Speaker 2 (10:32):
They're going to love hearing that you said that, oh,
the first draft not showingyour first draft to anybody.
No one should think that yourfirst draft is good enough to
show to anybody, like that's howyou get better, right yeah, you
have to get it out to make itbetter.
And so the other thing I thinkthey're going to like hearing is
(10:52):
you said when you got to theend of your book, you had to go
back to the beginning, to yournot your first job, but a draft
further along.
You had to go back to thebeginning because you noticed
that your writing had improved,your style had changed.
I find this to be really trueas well, for the writers I work
with is that in the beginningit's kind of like 1.0 of their
voice, their style, theirstructure, whatever, and then by
the end they've reached likethis is what we want it to be.
So they go back to thebeginning and they have a lot
(11:13):
more editing to do on thebeginning typically than the end
.
So do you want to talk aboutthat a little bit?
Speaker 1 (11:18):
Well, and that I totally agree, and that's why
it's so important.
People say I wrote a screenplayor I wrote a book or whatever.
And then what do I do?
I'm like write another one andthen write another one, another
one, write five, Because whenyou finish your fifth book or a
screenplay, then go back andrevisit your first one and
you'll see how much you've grownas a writer, instead of
spending 10 years of lifepolishing this one.
(11:39):
Work right.
Five different works.
Work right, Five differentworks.
Speaker 2 (11:43):
Yeah, totally, I'm on that same page and it's, you
know, the first thing we produce.
A lot of the times it's likeour book baby, or a script baby.
It's the thing that we reallylove, and people will waste 10
years on that same thing insteadof coming back to it with fresh
eyes and then making thatversion match what's in their
head.
So I love that.
You just said that and I thinkpeople are going to latch onto
that.
So then let's fast forward alittle bit.
(12:05):
You're done with the book andyou're like okay, so at this
point I need to do somethingwith it.
What were your publishing goals?
Like right, when you finishedit?
Speaker 1 (12:13):
Well, I wanted to get it traditionally published
because I just thought like, Ithought like that's the feather
in the cap, that's the stamp ofapproval from somebody who, from
a decision maker.
Right we do.
(12:37):
They're in new york, and so Itold him what I was doing.
He goes, let me arrange a phonecall.
So he set up a phone call withthis book agent in new york, now
that he didn't have to sign meas a writer, but he did have to
take the call because I am aclient, right.
So I told him what I was doing.
He goes well, send me somepieces, okay, great.
So I emailed him.
I maybe like three or fourstories and uh, I didn't hear
back from for months, likeeasily six months, and I didn't
even back from him for monthslike easily six months, and I
didn't even care.
I'm still writing this thing.
(12:58):
I had to finish the rest of thebook.
So what difference does it make?
I'm not ready anyway.
Six months later he calls me.
He's like out of the blue.
He's like I'm so sorry, it tookme this long.
If I had known, do you have anymore?
I go yeah, I'm almost done,here's the rest of the, here's
the book.
And at that point he was likelet's do it, I love it, let's
sell it, let's just take it out.
And I was like you don't havenotes, like nope, let's sell it.
(13:19):
So we took it out to publishersand I got you know.
Within a couple of weeks I wasrejected by all of them.
No-transcript can sell a memoireven though they didn't even
(14:04):
write the damn thing, becausethey have that following.
They probably even read theirmemoir and we know this is true.
So I started going on socialmedia and just talking about my
experiences as a TV writer andby doing that I built up a
really very large followingpretty fast on Instagram and
TikTok and Facebook and allthose platforms.
And then at that point I waslike, well, why do I need a
(14:26):
publisher?
Like, what did they bring tothe table?
Well, they'll help you.
You know they'll get you inBarnes and Noble.
Okay, but no one goes to Barnesand Noble anymore.
You know people buy their booksonline.
You know they can do that.
What else can they do?
Well, though, that's kind of it.
They don't really help youmarket the book.
They expect you to market thebook, which is why they say
platform drives acquisition.
They don't sell the book, theyexpect the author to sell the
(14:48):
book.
I'm like, okay, but you'regetting most of the money for
the.
I just know it.
It would have been very low.
So I was like I didn't.
I didn't see the benefit, otherthan like they make a lot of
publishers make a lot ofdecisions.
The title they can influencethe title, they can influence
the cover of the book, and thoseare things I didn't want to
actually compromise, cause I allalong I was talking to people
(15:12):
in the publishing industry andthey'd say well, this is what I
would change, this is how Iwould do it differently to sell
more books.
To sell more books and I'm likeyou all have a valid point Like
the title of my book is a paperorchestra.
What does that really mean?
Well, when you read the bookyou'll understand what it means.
But the title they wanted me tohave was like something wacky
because I'm a sitcom writersomething jokity McJoke joke.
(15:33):
And I was like but that's notthe book I want to put out.
I don't want to write that book.
This is the book I wanted towrite.
So every step of the way I waslike because none of this was a
money-making venture for me.
They wanted it to be money.
I get why they wanted to makemoney, but it wasn't for me.
To me, it was just aboutwriting something good.
And so at the end I was like,well, I have to put it out
myself.
There's really no reason Ican't sell it to them.
Speaker 2 (15:56):
Yeah, and I think this is a common thing a lot of
authors these days are facing isthey think that if they sign
with a traditional publisher andthey get an agent and all these
things, that the marketing isgoing to be taken care of and
they'll skyrocket to success.
And that's just not true.
And so then it becomes okay.
Well, what are my other options?
And it's indie publishing,which I think personally is a
great option.
(16:16):
I'm with you.
I would love creative controlover my own stuff and you know
we all have the power toskyrocket ourselves to success.
But something you said in thatSubstack piece which we're going
to link to in the show notes,is that even after realizing all
of this and coming to thatdecision of traditional
publishing is not for me.
You had that little glimmer oflike.
I still crave that approval andthis is super common.
(16:40):
Like all the writers I talk to,they do the research you've
done, they've weighed the prosand cons and they still want
that validation.
So can you talk about that alittle more and maybe offer
aspiring authors who arelistening to this podcast any
words of wisdom on dealing withthose feelings?
Speaker 1 (16:56):
The thing is that validation from a publisher
comes with a giant asterisk.
Anyway, it doesn't mean you'rea great writer.
If they buy a book, it doesn'tmean you're a great writer.
And if they turn down your book, it doesn't mean you're not a
great writer.
It just means they don't thinkthey can sell it.
They're out for the money.
That's what they want.
Speaker 2 (17:11):
It's a business, yeah no-transcript won some awards,
(17:42):
which we'll talk about in asecond.
But let's go back to where youwere like okay, I needed to
build this platform either waybecause I was going to be
responsible for marketing mybook and finding readers.
I feel like some listenersmight be thinking well, okay,
this guy like has connections inTV, he's written for TV.
How can I build a platform when, like, I don't feel the same as
this guy?
Speaker 1 (18:08):
Do you have any thoughts on that?
Absolutely so.
When I go on Instagram orTikTok and I talk about writing,
sometimes I talk about how Iprocess and you know, and that
is valuable because I'm a writer, a TV writer, so I can share
stuff that maybe they don't know.
But if I were like a 22 yearold woman just out of college,
she can talk about on socialmedia what it's like to be a 22
year old woman and the strugglesthat she has on a daily basis
way more authentically than Ican from her point of view.
(18:30):
And so that's what you shareabout.
You share authentically, fromyour perspective, of all the
hard stuff you're going through,like I think your early
twenties is like the hardesttime of your life.
So share all that stuff andyour struggles and that's
interesting, it's interestingfor anyone.
If you can, if you can do itwell, and if you can't do it
well, then then you might not bea good writer, you know.
(18:51):
That's the problem.
Speaker 2 (18:52):
So yeah, and it's interesting too, because
sometimes, like you've talkedabout this struggle and we'll
dig into this a little bit morebut you've talked about the
struggle of people see you oneway and you kind of want them to
see you as I'm an artist, I'man author, and so you had to
shift a little bit of yourtactics on how you approach
social media and building yourplatform and stuff like that.
As true, with the authors Iwork with, where they'll
(19:18):
approach it by sharing writingtips or a peek behind the
process, whatever, and then theyattract other writers, not
necessarily the readers.
So I tend to tell people okay,well, how do we give potential
followers, readers whatever, thesame vibe that your book is
giving them?
If you're writing romance, howdo we give them those happily
ever after feelings?
Or if you're writing a thriller, what can we share?
That kind of gives the readerthat experience and attracts
(19:39):
them.
And I think that's somethinglike we could say about your
platform.
Maybe is that the vibe of yourbook, which is it's funny, but
it's also like poignant, right,and there's a niceness to it,
like an I'm an every man kind ofvibe.
That's how you show up onsocial media, so the energy is
matching.
Have you thought about it thatway?
Speaker 1 (20:00):
Originally, this is a problem.
You know that.
My daughter pointed out Because, like I said, I don't want to
be seen as a screenwriting guruor as a writing expert.
So I did create a podcast it'scalled Unwritten, by Michael
Jammin, and I post once a week.
And so this week I posted abouthey, I'm working on a story.
And.
And so this week I posted abouthey, I'm working on a story.
And this is the problem I'mgoing through creating, writing
this story.
So they think of me not as ateacher, but I'm a writer.
(20:21):
I'm just like you.
This is the problem I'm facing.
On my website, I describe allmy work.
My neighbor helped me with thisbecause she's in marketing, or
she was.
She said if you had to describeyourself three words, what
would it be in your work?
I said, well, clever,vulnerable.
And what was the other?
one, I don't know, it might'vebeen introspective maybe, or
something like that.
Speaker 2 (20:42):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:42):
And so all of my work is that.
So when I'm sharing my, whenI'm talking on, I'm trying to be
funny, I'm trying to make youlaugh, I'm trying to give you a
laugh, or I'm trying to, and allof it is authentic.
And people sometimes people say, oh, he's so humble.
No, I'm just telling you thetruth, man, I'm not going to be
something, I'm not.
Speaker 2 (20:58):
that's the difference and I think almost that takes a
layer of stress out of it, in away like if you could just show
up and be yourself and peopleresonate with it.
It doesn't mean you're likepushing your book every day or
being sales or marketing, andthat's what I think a lot of
writers feel like.
If I have to build thisplatform, I have to be a
marketing genius or salesy orwhatever, and it's like not
really.
That's not really what's goingto work.
Speaker 1 (21:19):
Yeah, it's not, you know, but I have to say, like
when I first started pushing thebook, when I came out and I was
talking about it and then Idon't talk about all the time I
you know maybe one out of everyfive posts or 10 or whatever
like that and then some guy waslike, hey, I about it.
Now I said, well, I could seewhy you'd be tired and I did a
post about this.
I could see why that would turnyou off.
(21:40):
That's getting old I go.
But just so you know me, beingon this platform is the only
reason why I'm on here.
Speaker 2 (21:47):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (21:47):
So if I'm not selling books, like then forget it,
I'll go away and do somethingelse, because that's the
literally why I'm here and I'mjust being honest with everybody
.
And then people bought books,yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:56):
It's so funny.
Yeah, just a little honest peekbehind the scenes.
Speaker 1 (21:59):
Yeah, I'm not here because I love posting every day
.
Speaker 2 (22:03):
Yeah, I think a lot of the fellow writers who are
listening to this will be likeyeah, us too.
We don't love being glued toInstagram.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:09):
Right.
Speaker 2 (22:22):
But so, as a result of kind of all this marketing
effort, I know you've built theplatform, you've guested on
podcasts and done all thesethings, but I know that your
book Paper Orchestra debuted atnumber one on Amazon Bestseller
in multiple categories and thenrecently it won the Readsie
Discovery Editor's Choice Awardand Vulture named it as one of
the best comedy books of 2024,which is amazing.
Speaker 1 (22:34):
Yeah, that was really cool because I don't have the
weight of a publisher behind me.
It's because someone one of myfollowers started, you know,
read my book and loved it and hewrote he writes for a vulture.
And I was like, damn, that's,that's really cool.
Speaker 2 (22:47):
Yeah, it's so cool and I love that.
It just shows how your effortsworked out, because if you had
not been showing up and being,you know, your humble, honest
and authentic self, thoseresults might not have happened.
Right, if you'd been too scaredto start the platform, too
scared to talk about your book,which a lot of people are, where
(23:09):
a lot of us artists areintroverts.
Speaker 1 (23:09):
So I think that's super cool.
Yeah, I'm introvert as well.
I don't like.
Yeah, none of this is I'dprefer not to talk on.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (23:17):
Yeah, but it's important to getting your story
out there.
So, before I pivot cause I dowant to pivot and ask you some
questions about actually writingwriting a book or a screenplay
or whatever Is there anythingelse you want to share, just
about like your book or theirjourney from unpublished to
published?
Speaker 1 (23:33):
Well, one of the things that I love about David
Sedaris is that he tours and heperforms.
He goes from city to city I'veseen him a number of times and
then afterwards he signs andsells books and all that I go.
Yeah, that's part of what Iwanted to do, and so now that's
what I get to do.
So we're touring as a one-manshow.
I have shows in Seattle comingup in February four shows and
(23:54):
then one show in Berkeley,california, and then we're doing
the Hollywood Fringe Festivalin June and then maybe Edinburgh
Fringe Festival in June.
So, yeah, but that's part ofthe fun is that I get to turn it
into a one-man show and performit, because I've been behind
that camera for 28 years.
So it's like now.
I can, and it's a wholedifferent skill set that I have
to learn.
Speaker 2 (24:15):
That's awesome and probably a little scary.
I know you just said you're anintrovert, so does that come
into play?
Like how do you manage that?
Or is it all just about restingafterwards?
Speaker 1 (24:30):
Yeah, it's about like afterwards people want to talk
to me, Some people want to hugme and I'll take pictures,
that's sure.
And then like hey, come out fordrinks with me.
That's the no.
I want to go home and sit in aroom in the dark, Like it's just
too much for stimulation for me.
Speaker 2 (24:39):
Yeah, I know that's how I am too.
I'm fine doing the publicthings, but then I need to rest
and balance myself out.
Speaker 1 (24:45):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (24:46):
So, okay, I want to pivot this a little bit, because
originally I did plan ontalking to you about more like
how do we write for screenplaysversus TV or versus books,
things like that.
But then I read on your substack that you're like I don't
want to be viewed always as thishow-to person, but I also can't
I can't really not ask youabout writing a little bit of
(25:07):
comedy, because this is aquestion I get asked.
A lot is like how do we add alayer of comedy into our books?
How do we write characters thatare funny?
Do you have any tips on that?
Speaker 1 (25:16):
because this I'm not well versed in how to help
people with that well, the thingis, if someone's not funny, if
they're not naturally funny,it's like it's not something you
can just do, and the problemproblem is when people get into
it.
If they're not naturally funnyperson don't write comedy, it's
okay.
Write drama, there's a hugeaudience for that.
The problem is when people whoare not funny try to write
comedy and then they they putwhat we call in the business
(25:39):
clams.
They put jokes in the scriptthat are not theirs.
Said no one ever.
That's a clam.
I didn't have that on my 2025bingo card.
That's a clamp.
These are jokes that we hear onthe internet that are not our
own, and we just hear them andso we feel like we can put them
into our writing.
But you can't.
You cannot do that.
It's the job of the writer tofind new ways to say old things,
(26:03):
not to rip off the internet andput into it.
No one's going to laugh at it,they're just going to think
you're unoriginal.
You know, uh, I'm switching youto.
Decaf said no one ever likethese are all clams and you just
cannot put it in your work.
Speaker 2 (26:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (26:18):
But if you think you have the funny bone and people
say, hey, you're funny, then theway strong attitudes are always
funny.
So if you talk about the souphow was the soup?
It was okay that's not funny.
No, if the soup was the mostglorious soup you've ever had,
that can be funny, becausethat's an extreme.
This was the worst soup I'veever tasted like dog shit, right
(26:39):
.
Speaker 2 (26:44):
That's going to be funny because it's an extreme.
But when the soup is okay, it'snot funny, right?
And it's kind of same withcharacters.
When they're bland and boring,they're not interesting.
They don't even have thecapability of being funny or
dramatic because they're justblah.
But you also, I know on I thinkit was on your Instagram you
talked about how, like thecomedy in a character comes from
who that character is too.
So you have to do the work todevelop them, and it's not just
like giving this person jokes orchoosing to give this other
(27:06):
person jokes.
It's like it has to come fromwho they are, their worldview,
how they approach things, whatthey believe and how that either
complements or contrasts whatother characters believe and do.
Right, yes, exactly.
Speaker 1 (27:19):
Yeah, it's not, they're not trying it.
A character is never trying tobe funny and when you see that
it's always cringy, thecharacter is just being
themselves.
And when you see that it'salways cringy, the character is
just being themselves.
And you know, when LarryDavid's funny on Curb your
Enthusiasm, it's because he'ssaying exactly what he's
thinking and he's like youshouldn't be saying any of that
and he's judgmental and he's notforgiving and that's all funny.
Speaker 2 (27:40):
Yeah, and I think it is hard to write comedy.
Speaker 1 (28:00):
I don't know if you would agree.
But I think for the writers Iwork with it's one of the
harderliner has to be funny inorder for the story to be funny.
So if you pitch the logline andit's not funny, then the story
won't be funny.
You just can't make it funny.
You can put all the jokes youwant into it, but the core of it
is not a funny idea.
Speaker 2 (28:17):
Right, and we talk about writing loglines a lot on
this podcast and how they'rebeneficial for so many reasons.
But you just added a new layerto it that if you can't see the
comedy or the whatever feelingright, the drama, the romance,
whatever, it's not going to work.
Right right, okay, so thanks forindulging me with that.
And then I guess my lastquestion for you is if you were
(28:42):
to just give advice either toyour younger self, before you
started writing this book, orany other aspiring author who is
either about to start theirwriting journey or is maybe in
the middle of the messy middleof their first book, what advice
would you give them?
Speaker 1 (28:53):
Well, I would say it's supposed to take a long
time.
So when I was in college, I wasrejected from the creative
writing program twice and I wasdevastated.
I was like it felt like at theage of 19 or 20, whatever it was
that they were saying no, youdon't get to be a writer.
And I wanted to be a writer andI felt like they were just
ruling out my future.
Fortunately, I didn't listen tothem and so moved to LA,
(29:14):
studied screenwriting, became aTV writer and then when I
finished this book and my agentcalled and say he loved it right
, is this before we submitted itto publishers?
He loved it and I took a walkaround the block and I was
almost choked up with tearsbecause it occurred to me at
that moment, even though I'vebeen I've had a successful
career as a TV writer.
This is the book that I wantedto write when I was in college.
(29:36):
These are the stories I wantedto tell, but I didn't know how
to, and so it took people and Ifelt like I was honoring that 20
year old kid I was.
That was his dream.
That was his dream.
My dream turned into somethingelse, but at least I realized
his dream as well.
Speaker 2 (29:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (29:51):
It took me whatever two and a half years to write
the book, but it really took me26 years to learn how to write
the book.
Speaker 2 (29:58):
Yeah, Well, and I mean, you put all your life
experience into it, right?
So totally yeah yeah.
I love that.
So, yeah, don't give up.
And it's proof in the puddingtoo.
On this book, Paper Orchestra,you said it died in the
acquisition phase.
Right, Nobody wanted it, itdied on submission.
And you didn't give up.
And look what's happened since.
Speaker 1 (30:17):
So very cool.
Speaker 2 (30:19):
Thank you so much, michael, for coming on the show.
We will link to all the thingsyou talked about your Substack
article, your tour.
We'll put some links to yourwebsite and everything and your
book in the show notes.
But anything else you want tosay to the audience before we
let you go, that's it.
Speaker 1 (30:32):
You're doing a wonderful service to people.
You're really helping them withtheir words, and that's
important, because everyonewants to feel seen and heard,
and that's what you help them do.
Speaker 2 (30:41):
Well, thank you for saying that, that's the goal.
We want everyone to feel seenand heard and we want everyone
to feel like writing their bookis that possible dream that they
can achieve if they don't havecollege degrees, if they don't
have any other artistic proofI'm using air quotes, you can't
see me but artistic proof thatthey can.
We want everyone to feel likethey can do it.
So I appreciate you coming onand sharing your story and we'll
(31:03):
have to maybe have you comeback and talk more about typical
screenwriting stuff someday.
Speaker 1 (31:07):
Anytime you want, anytime you want.
Speaker 2 (31:09):
All right, thank you.
Speaker 1 (31:10):
Thank you again.
Speaker 2 (31:13):
So that's it for today's episode.
As always, thank you so muchfor tuning in and for showing
your support.
If you want to check out any ofthe links I mentioned in this
episode, you can find them inthe show notes listed in the
description of each episodeinside your podcast player or at
savannahgilbocom forward slashpodcast.
If you're an Apple user, I'dreally appreciate it if you took
(31:34):
a few seconds to leave a ratingand a review.
Your ratings and reviews tellApple that this is a podcast
that's worth listening to and,in turn, your reviews will help
this podcast get in front ofmore fiction writers just like
you.
And while you're there, goahead and hit that follow button
, because there's going to beanother brand new episode next
week, full of actionable tips,tools and strategies to help you
(31:54):
become a better writer.
So I'll see you next week anduntil then, happy writing.
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