March 18, 2025 • 39 mins
Curious about writing books in more than one genre? Angela Haas shares a behind-the-scenes look at writing science fiction and romantic comedy!
In today’s episode, we’re going behind the scenes of Angela Haas’s journey to hear how she self-published not one but two books in the last six months—one’s that’s a really fun space opera and the other that’s a romantic comedy. You’ll hear about her experience working with book editors, how she approaches the writing process as a die-hard pantser, and what made her choose self-publishing for all three of her books.
In the episode, you’ll hear us talk about things like:
- [06:50] What happened when Angela submitted her outline for feedback in an online writing course (it wasn’t mine!) and got negative feedback from the instructor who called her space opera story “spoofy”
- [13:45] How understanding this one writing technique (spoiler alert: it’s “show, don’t tell") helped improve the quality of Angela’s manuscripts, and what exactly made this tricky concept finally make sense
- [15:05] What made Angela (a die-hard pantser) finally embrace outlining—and what her unique approach to outlining looks like (spoiler alert: it’s flexible and creative, something all pantsers would love!)
- [17:45] What happened when Angela hired an editor who started re-writing passages from her story (and why this almost made her give up on writing altogether)
- [20:10] Why Angela decided to self-publish both of her books—including what she learned from researching traditional publishing and indie publishing and the factors that made her choose self-publishing
If you’re an aspiring author who dreams of self-publishing a novel to have more control over the creative process, you’re going to love this episode!
🔗 Links mentioned in this episode:
⭐ Rate + Review + Follow on Apple Podcasts
"I love the Fiction Writing Made Easy podcast!" ← If that sounds like you, please consider rating and reviewing this show! Your rating and review will help other writers find this podcast, and they're also super fun for me to read. Just click here, scroll all the way to the bottom, tap five stars to rate the show, and then select "Write a Review." Be sure to let me know your favorite episodes, too!
Also, if you haven't done so already, make sure you're following the podcast! I'll be adding a bunch of bonus episodes to the feed, and if you're not following the show, there's a good chance you'll miss them. Click here to follow now!
Click here to register for my FREE training: 3 Things You Need to Write Your Novel in 2025.
👉 Looking for a transcript? If you’re listening on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, scroll down below the episode player until you see the
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Angela Haas (00:00):
Everyone's style works for everyone, but for me,
I need just like bullet pointsRight and I wanted to do better.
I wanted the framework.
I wanted to learn how to writea better book, to organize it
and to get it together, insteadof just at first, I just had
fiends floating around, I didn'treally know what I was doing
and so, taking that course, Iwas able to go step by step and
(00:25):
start from the beginning,instead of just floundering.
Savannah Gilbo (00:31):
Welcome to the Fiction Writing Made Easy
podcast.
My name is Savannah Gilbo andI'm here to help you write a
story that works.
I want to prove to you thatwriting a novel doesn't have to
be overwhelming, so each week,I'll bring you a brand new
episode with simple, actionableand step-by-step strategies that
you can implement in yourwriting right away.
So whether you're brand new towriting or more of a seasoned
(00:52):
author looking to improve yourcraft, this podcast is for you.
So pick up a pen and let's getstarted.
In today's episode, we're goingbehind the scenes of one
writer's journey to hear how shepublished not one, but two
books in the last six months.
One's a really fun space operathat's the second book in a
series and the other is aromantic comedy.
(01:15):
My guest's name is Angela Haas,and she is a small business
owner turned author of threepublished books.
You'll hear about what it waslike to switch from writing
science fiction to writingromantic comedy.
What happened when Angela hadnot one, but two terrible
experiences with book editorsone who called her book spoofy
and the other who randomlyrewrote passages of her story
(01:37):
and how, despite how devastatingboth experiences were, angela
did not give up.
Also, angela shares what madethe tricky advice to show, don't
tell finally stick, and how sheapproaches outlining as a
diehard pantser and why sheultimately decided that
self-publishing was the rightpath for her.
But before we dive into all ofthat, I want to read you the
(01:58):
back cover copy of the two booksthat we're going to talk about
today.
So the first is called Secondsto Oblivion and it's the second
book in Angela's Keepers of theUniverse series.
So this is her sci-fi spaceopera book, and the back cover
says In a battle for the galaxy,love and duty collide.
To escape the pain of her past,marlene Mason settles into a
(02:19):
mundane life Work, sleep, repeat, nothing to challenge her, no
decisions to be made.
When a harrowing trafficaccident awakens powers that
shatter her safe place, she ispropelled into an adventure
forcing her to confront theghosts that haunt her, while the
(02:39):
vengeful Zuldari commander,pharaoh, starts playing
dangerous games with otherpeople's lives In war.
Love is complicated.
Commander Callahan Merritt hasa mission, and it doesn't
include fully surrendering tohis feelings for Marlene.
For Cal, it's easier to be asoldier than a lover.
As Pharaoh's malevolent griptightens on Marlene and her
allies, the line between friendand foe blurs.
Cal must learn to put love overduty and Marlene must trust in
(03:01):
her newfound strength to saveher homeworld from annihilation.
In the second installment of theCaptivating Keepers of the
Universe series, join Marlene ona heart-pounding journey from
the depths of alien oceans tothe scorching deserts of Nevada.
With the fate of the Sentinelsand the galaxy hanging in the
balance, can Marlene unlock hertrue power to ensure a future
(03:21):
worth fighting for?
Okay, so that is Angela's bookcalled Seconds to Oblivion and
again, it's the second book inher Keepers of the Universe
series.
It's a space opera, sci-fi book, and now we're going to totally
shift gears and talk about herromantic comedy.
So this one is called my PlusOne Equals you.
And here's what the back coversays they're just trying to
(03:43):
survive wedding season untillove crashes the party.
It's wedding season inScottsdale, the perfect backdrop
for love, unless you're Rachelor Cameron.
For Rachel, wedding fever isdifficult to escape, especially
since she's a 34-year-oldperpetual bridesmaid.
For Cam, who invests more inhis bakery than his heart,
weddings are just another eventto survive.
(04:04):
Desperate to avoid the endlessparade of I do's alone, rachel
and Cam make a pact Be eachother's plus one for the
season's weddings.
The rules are simple Don'tovercomplicate things, be there
for each other and, mostimportantly, don't fall in love
Easy right.
When their exes reappear,stirring up old emotions, their
resolve is tested.
(04:25):
Amid the swirl of confetti andwedding vows, they confront
their growing feelings andlingering past.
Will the irresistible pull oflove force them to break the
rules?
Dive into a steamy, humorousand heartfelt story where love
may be the wedding guest thatneither Rachel nor Cameron saw
coming?
Now we will, of course, link toboth books in the show notes,
(04:46):
but let's go ahead and diveright into my conversation with
Angela Haas.
Hi, angela, welcome to theFiction Writing Made Easy
podcast.
Angela Haas (04:56):
Hi, thank you so much for having me.
My name is Angela Haas and Iactually started listening to
Fiction Writing Made Easy a longtime ago.
It was one of the very firstpodcasts I ever listened to when
I was just starting out, and Iloved it because it was so
helpful for me.
So it really started to guideme.
(05:17):
But previously I'm actually asmall business owner.
My husband and I own eightretail brick and mortars and
that's.
I've been doing that for 30years and in the business a
while ago I was an art buyer,book buyer and just merchandiser
(05:37):
.
So have that experience andthen less that, just because
it's hard to work with yourhusband.
So I went on to get my master'sin communication and started
teaching college classes justcollege, public speaking, mass
media and business classes.
And then during COVID, thought,hey, I've always been a writer,
(06:00):
I've always loved writing sinceI was a kid.
Maybe I'll pull out this thingI started in high school and
dust it off and see what I cando with it.
Savannah Gilbo (06:09):
And now here we are One of the cool things that
came from COVID, right is?
You became a published author.
Yes, talk about really coolfull circle moments.
You were a listener of thepodcast we're going to talk
about.
You came into the Notes tonovel course and then look at
all the things you've done since, which is so cool.
So I want to rewind you likeall the way back to, if you can
(06:30):
remember, in COVID times, whenyou pulled out that book from
high school and you're like,maybe I'm going to give it
another shot.
What happened?
I'm sure you were like most ofus.
You went to the internet andyou were Googling how to do the
various things.
Angela Haas (06:51):
But did you make progress with that Like just
talk me through, kind of thatfirst attempt?
Well, it actually was.
I almost quit right before Istarted because we're so
connected.
We're so much more connectednow because there's writer
groups with Slack and Discordand we have circles now.
Before that I didn't really haveanyone, I was only reading
Writer's Digest, I didn't knowanything else, and they had a
contest in there where if youpaid for this course, you could
(07:12):
pitch your outline for your bookto an agent and they'd give you
feedback and maybe take you on.
So I'm thinking, okay, I'vealways loved my story, it's just
about superheroes in space.
I've always loved my story.
It's just about superheroes inspace.
So I went to the course,pitched the outline and she
ripped it to shreds and it washard because it wasn't like a
(07:33):
cold call to someone.
I was following the courseinstructions and I was thinking
you'd get some feedback and shewas like this sounds spoofy,
it's not good.
And so I went to Facebook cryingin this one writer's group I
was in like is this normal, doesthis happen?
And this lady saw my post andsaid no, join my group, find
(07:55):
Savannah Gilbo's podcast, findthese other podcasts and keep
going.
And so from that I was like youknow what I'm determined but
I'm going to take that feedback,even though it hurts so bad,
and I'm going to start writingthis over from scratch and
reading and learning, takingnotes to novel course and
starting to learn how toactually put a novel together.
(08:17):
And so out of that rising fromthose ashes of just feeling her,
it just turned out really well.
Savannah Gilbo (08:26):
Yeah, and it's such a hard experience to go
through something like that.
I know a lot of writers whohave similar stories and it's
unfortunate because I think,after kind of seeing all these
different writers go through it,that person probably meant well
, I would hope, but the way thatthey're delivering what they're
trying to say isn't always thebest or the most constructive,
and I kind of wish that we allknew how to give feedback in a
(08:49):
positive, constructive way andthings like that, just so we
would never have to hear storieslike this, because it kills me,
it makes me, so upset to hearyou be like, I almost quit.
And now look at you.
You're like publishing yourthird book, yeah.
I'm so glad for that woman inthe Facebook group that was like
no, no, this is not good, thisis not normal, and also for you,
(09:10):
you know, having the tenacityto get back into it.
Angela Haas (09:14):
Yeah, and I think it was hard because it was my
first real attempt to put myselfout there.
I think that's as authors we'realways like do I really want
people to read this?
It's so intimate for you, it'slike been in your head and now
you put it out for people tojudge.
But it put me through thatright away, and so it was easier
(09:34):
for me to accept other feedbackor criticism, because it's
going to happen.
Savannah Gilbo (09:39):
It's going to happen, and it's hard because
you never know what people arebringing to your feedback.
So sometimes that's the hardpart about writers groups or
critique groups is maybe someonejust had an experience like
that and so they're going topick on you because they don't
know how else to do thingsExactly.
So it's so hard.
Getting feedback is so hard,which is why I always recommend
to people like, if you canafford, to hire someone to help
(10:02):
you with it, or to you know adevelopmental editor, even paid
beta readers like the spun yarn,whoever that they're trained to
give you feedback in thatconstructive way.
It's just so much better.
But I know not everyone can dothat.
So you have to be conscious ofwho you're asking into your
world to read your story and togive you their thoughts.
Angela Haas (10:22):
Yeah, exactly, and you still have to be open to
feedback too.
I mean, sometimes it does hurt,but sometimes it can open you
up to being like you know what?
I can make this so much better.
Thank you, Even the bad stuff.
And you have to kind of knowour reviews that were hard, but,
yes, I took it and it made mebetter.
Savannah Gilbo (10:43):
So yeah, and those are hard too.
Right, it's like you wish youcould know.
A does this person read sci-fi?
B do they like humor in theirsci-fi?
Right, Like you wish you couldget context.
But unfortunately all we get isthat text and we all get the
one, two star, three starreviews and they all hurt.
It is just a part of it.
But for personally and for thewriters I work with, I'm like
(11:04):
every time you read one of those, go read like three of your
good reviews, because, yes, youneed to feel those just as much
and they're there too.
We just sometimes discount thema little.
Angela Haas (11:16):
Yeah, exactly, we focus on the bad ones, and yeah
that I've had a lot of goodreviews too yeah, but okay.
Savannah Gilbo (11:23):
So you're a little phoenix rising out of the
ashes of that feedback, and soyou found this woman and she
said hey, that's not normal.
You started listening to thepodcast and then what made you
sign up for the Notes to Novelcourse?
Angela Haas (11:36):
Well, I actually went through StoryGrid and then
saw that you're a StoryGrideditor.
There's so much that comes atyou when you're a story grid
editor.
There's so much that comes atyou when you're trying to decide
what to sign up for.
The reason I took the plungewith the Notes to Novel course
is because of your podcast,because the way that you present
information is so clear andconcise and it's so organized
(12:01):
that it's easy for me to listen.
Learn.
Just your style for me is justso much easier because sometimes
and there's no criticismEveryone's style works for
everyone.
But for me, I need just likebullet points Right, and I
wanted to do better.
I wanted the framework.
I wanted to learn how to writea better book, to organize it
(12:24):
and to get it together insteadof just at first I just had
fiends floating around, I didn'treally know what I was doing,
and so, taking that course, Iwas able to go step by step and
start from the beginning insteadof just floundering.
Savannah Gilbo (12:41):
Yeah, which is great.
Angela Haas (12:42):
Yeah.
Savannah Gilbo (12:43):
Because you wanted to write more than one
book too.
I know the sci-fi book was.
You always talked about itbecoming a series, and then also
I knew you had other ideasbeyond just that series.
So that process is reallyimportant.
Again, wherever you get yourprocess from, whoever's
listening, whatever process youlike, whatever makes sense,
having that process to come toevery time you have an idea is
(13:03):
huge, yes, and so I love thatthat helped.
And was there anything I alwayslike to ask people?
Was there anything you wereworried about before you signed
up?
Because, like you said, there'sso many things out there.
So if it were me, I might belike gosh, there's so many
things.
What if this is just anotherthing that doesn't work?
Or you know, was there anythinglike that?
Angela Haas (13:28):
doesn't work, or you know, was there anything
like that?
I know because I had listenedto so many of your podcasts so I
knew it was going to be good.
I just I didn't have a concern,that's good.
There's some things where, butI I I knew your style.
Even your website is clear.
It just I knew it was going tobe good from signing up, so yeah
no problems, that's good andI'm glad it paid off.
Savannah Gilbo (13:48):
So when you were in the course, if you were to
think back and I was to say whatis the one thing that made the
biggest difference, is thereanything that stands out when I
ask that question?
Angela Haas (14:09):
don't tell part and for me, the ways that you
taught how to do that.
I was looking it up and it justwasn't clicking for me.
But it was something that I wasstruggling with because I had
so much passive voice and then Ithink, being a teacher, I felt
like I over had to explaineverything, like telling you
know, like I'm writing asyllabus, or instructing here's
how a fight scene works, punch A, punch B.
(14:31):
But when I was listening toShow Don't Tell, just the way
that you presented it, it madeso much more of an impact.
I remember that I need to.
I don't know if I can get intothe specifics, because I took it
like a few years ago but I willremember that because it
clicked and now I get it,Whereas I just wasn't getting it
(14:54):
before.
But that section specifically,it all was great, but that
section was really helpfulbecause I felt like there was
stuff in there that you don'tsee everywhere else.
Savannah Gilbo (15:04):
Yeah, and for listeners who don't have that
behind the scenes, look at thatlesson.
In the course we talk aboutdifferent levels of show and
tell.
So, yes, we show and tell onthe sentence level and that's
the common advice of themoonlight glinted on the knife
or whatever.
But it's also about showing howyour character reacts to things
, how they're processing theexternal events around them and
(15:25):
things like that.
But it tends to be a favoritelesson, so I'm glad it impacted
you.
And then I'm super curious nowbecause you said your first
outline that you submitted tothat contest slash for feedback
didn't work and you got somenegative feedback.
You also did an outline inNotes to Novel.
Do you remember if there was?
I know it was so long ago, butdo you remember if there was
(15:45):
anything significant about howyou did the two outlines?
Angela Haas (15:50):
You know, the notes to novel outline was obviously
so much better because I'm sucha pantser and so I'm like
starting at the end, writing arandom scene there, working
backward, filling in somethingwith the middle and then trying
to connect them, which there's alot of people do that and
(16:11):
they're really successful.
There's a lot of people do thatand they're really successful.
I started to learn that thatwas making my job harder,
because then I ended up likeworking so hard on this final
scene, ending up cutting itbecause it started over.
So with the notes to noveloutline book that truly was I
started from point A and went toB and actually did an outline
(16:32):
and I got learning from you.
It wasn't as attached to likejust do kind of a brief
framework.
I didn't have to like have thatwhole scene nailed down and
just the flow and that outline.
That book started to cometogether much easier than the
first one before I took thecourse.
Savannah Gilbo (16:50):
Yeah, and I think what you said is really
important, because a lot ofpantsers will hear the word
outline and they're just kind oflike, don't talk to me about
that.
Outlines can be anything youwant.
It's the goal is to help you,the writer, see the big sweep of
your story, and you can takethat as high level or as
granular as you want.
So it's just like Angela said,the goal is to not waste your
(17:10):
time later or to not throw awaythings later when you can kind
of work out some of that stuffin the outline.
So I'm glad that that worked aswell.
So, okay, now here's where Ikind of left you and I didn't
know what happened to you for awhile.
I, you know, I saw you, I gotyour email, saw you around the
internet and things like that,but I didn't know what you were
doing from leaving notes tonovel to one day I got an email
(17:32):
in my inbox that said a writeryou follow published a new book
and I was like, oh my gosh, shepublished this book.
So what did you do betweenleaving notes to novel and
publishing your book, which?
This is the book two of yourKeepers in the Universe series
called Seconds to Bliss.
Angela Haas (17:48):
So tell me about that time in between I was like
raring to go and I reallyfinished like that first draft
came together really quickly.
But then I struggled finding aneditor.
The person that I worked beforewas Asa Radar.
I found a new editor that wasrewriting things without track
(18:11):
changes on and which is adangerous place to be, because I
really lost my voice in thebook.
And I remember I submittedanother scene for a coaching
session with you where we did anonline coaching session and
that was really helpful and itended up completely rewriting it
based on the feedback I got inthat coaching scene.
(18:32):
But what I learned to do waseven I only did one coaching
scene with you and I took thatadvice and I was able to apply
it to the whole novel.
So even though again I had toface adversity and start over
and rewrite the whole thing theway I wanted, I still had those
lessons in the back of my mind.
So the second rewrite cametogether faster, found another
(18:55):
great editor.
It all just kind of cametogether at a successful book
launch sold 40 books at my booklaunch, yeah.
So it was kind of up in air.
There was a few times I wantedto just quit, like you, just get
to this point, like it's not.
I can't do this you know this isso hard and they just keep
going because now, seeing thatit's done, that is so worth it.
(19:19):
Everything I went through, it'sso worth it.
Savannah Gilbo (19:22):
Well, and it's so hard again too, because, like
, not only is, let's say,everything goes right, it's
still a marathon, right, likeit's still hard and tiring and
it's you get all these emotionswhen you're writing the book,
editing the book and publishingthe book and all that, but also
you did have some pretty severehiccups, like you said, with
even at the starting gate, whereyou're like I don't know if I
want to continue and I want togo back to what you said,
(19:43):
because I'm sure listeners theirears were like pinged, like oh
my God, someone was rewritingyour draft.
Angela told me the other day,when we were chatting, that an
editor, like she said, wasbasically rewriting pieces of
her story without track changeson, so she couldn't find where
her story was and where theirwriting was, which became a big
(20:03):
nightmare.
And you were like again, is itworth going on?
This is so hard.
So you had some pretty severeroad bumps or roadblocks to go
up across and you still pushedthrough it because I think it
meant so much to you.
Angela Haas (20:18):
To finish, yes, and I worked so hard on it.
I really believed in the story.
I really wanted people to meetthe new keeper because my series
is more like Avengers, wherethere's each one is like an
origin story in a connecteduniverse.
And she was so different thanthe first Keeper that I was like
I've got to get her out thereand I just I loved the book and
(20:40):
I just invested so much.
You don't want to give up.
If you can keep going, the wayout is through.
Savannah Gilbo (20:47):
That's for sure.
And it's so funny because everytime you bring up the like the
getting the scene feedback onthat one scene, I still a
hundred percent remember thatwhole scene because I love your
story.
It's a quirky space opera.
It showcases women that arestrong and, like you said,
there's a new keeper every bookand who doesn't love like a fun
(21:07):
little trip to Vegas in a spaceopera?
So it was just so fun.
But okay, so that that'samazing.
We're going to link to thatbook Again.
That is Seconds to Oblivion,it's book two in your Keepers of
the Universe series and that'syour sci fi series.
Now let's shift gears and Iwant to hear about what made you
(21:28):
start trying to write a romance, or writing a romance, because
at the time we're recording it'sactually out available for
pre-order.
Yes, what was that shift like?
Because a lot of writers willask me like is it weird to write
in multiple genres?
Is it way harder, is it?
Angela Haas (21:42):
they're just it's enough writing one book, right,
and then you're going to switchgenres.
What's that like?
Yeah, and I actually I wasdoing that at the same time, so
I was waiting for edits to comeback.
I've got this story in my brainthat just popped up and I'm
just going to put it down.
And I just started writing it.
It just started coming to meand it was so weird because I
(22:03):
always have romantic subplotsand I'd been doing a lot of
research.
Romance is obviously the numberone selling genre and I was like
, oh I can, I love romance.
I've been doing romance andwatching romance and devouring
romance my whole life.
No, it's so different,especially coming from like a
(22:24):
sci-fi, fantasy world whereyou're making up magic systems,
superhero systems.
In sci-fi.
You have to get all thistheoretical, non-existent
weapons and world stuff down.
If you don't, even though it'sfake and imaginary, it doesn't
work.
So the slog of really worldbuilding is intense.
(22:49):
I thought it was going to beeasier to write the romance.
However, you have to follow therules still.
There's still so much to learnabout tropes and emotional
wounds.
And are you doing romanticcomedy and what does that look
like?
The hardest thing was likenailing like where, what's my
lane as far as like intimatescenes?
(23:09):
Where am I going with that?
I decided, since my mother'sreading it, I'm going to be
lower spice but not closed door.
So I mean you have to do a lotof research.
I started just reading romancenovels and then learning from
them and then just writing thesetwo people and realizing you
know what.
I was a bridesmaid five timesin the year 2000.
(23:31):
Once a weekend I had a majorwedding.
One was in a barn, one wasGreek Orthodox, one was a giant
$200,000 blowout in Denver,colorado.
I have all these weddingstories so I drew upon those and
I just started writing thisromance.
And now it's there.
(23:52):
That's amazing this romance andnow it's there.
That's amazing.
Yeah, it was the only lastthing I'll say.
It was easier from a standpointlike I was writing from a world
that exists.
It's based in Scottsdale.
I lived part-time in Scottsdale, I know what the restaurants
are, what the weather's like,and that was so much easier than
coming up with the sci-fifantasy world.
(24:13):
Right.
But, that was fun yeah.
Savannah Gilbo (24:14):
Yeah, that's so cool and I love like you hit on.
What I love about genre fictionis that, yes, it's all fiction,
but each genre is its ownlittle world and its own little
bubble and there's rules andthere's really good things that
we all love about books of thatgenre, and then there's things
that make it challenging.
And you tell me if this iscorrect.
(24:37):
But I would imagine that bothof your genres are going to be
stronger, having written in twogenres now, because it's like
you just learned more tools foryour toolbox.
Angela Haas (24:43):
Yes, yes, and there's things I can apply to
both, because ultimately, itcomes down to how strong your
characters are.
For me, I feel like that's whatreaders love, because I learned
a lot actually just going onand reading one-star reviews
from trad pub authors to indieauthors Not that all of them,
some of them are just people whoare cranky, but some are like.
(25:05):
You can learn a lot by whatreaders don't like, and that
taught me a lot about what tomaybe avoid in the romance genre
, and so, yeah, each one is itsvery own, but I can apply things
to both now, yeah, and do youhave an example off the top of
your head of like what you mighthave learned from a one-star
review?
(25:26):
A lot of people don't.
In romance, specifically thethird act breakup.
I'm learning that that'sbecoming a problem, or anything
that can be really solved bysimple communication, like a
misunderstanding that gets blownout of proportion leads to a
breakup when all the otherperson had to do was maybe pick
(25:47):
up the phone and just talk aboutit.
Readers don't like that andthey don't like whiny love
interests on either side.
Savannah Gilbo (25:59):
It's so funny because the way you know, I look
at things like that and I'mlike what would I imagine is the
root of why they don't like it?
And it's probably because it'sjust not done well.
So like a third act breakupwhen it works, and it's really
gut-wrenching and you're justlike, oh my God, how are they
going to fix this?
That's like you're a master ofyour craft.
When you can do something likethat, like hit that key scene,
(26:19):
you can also, of course, like,do something totally different.
So maybe they don't break up,maybe they separate for whatever
reason, physically oremotionally, or there's so many
ways you can play with it.
And I think that's what'sreally cool is you're doing the
work to understand, like, whatdo people not like?
What do they like?
And then how do I make it me?
Yeah, I think that's sofascinating.
Angela Haas (26:40):
Yeah, and I'm older than you.
I was writing I'm almost 50.
So I'm a little more thanNicole as far as love goes
sometimes, although I'm marriedto a wonderful husband.
But I was so thinking back onmy younger 20-something single
dating life, I'm like ugh.
(27:00):
No, I'm not putting this inthere, it's a different mindset
it is.
It's totally different.
I was applying at first toomuch logic to the romance and
that's one thing.
I did have to learn that thereis a fantasy piece Like it's not
that.
I'm like well, if they justtalk this over, it's fine.
(27:20):
So I guess that's not an issue.
But I had to be like don't beso logical.
There is fantasy and romance.
Savannah Gilbo (27:27):
Yeah, and different worldviews and
different ways of interpretingthings, and I think that's one
of the key things that I see alot of drafts that don't work,
and it's like you have to buildin the internal logic for who
these people are in order forthe overall logic to make sense.
With that mix of fantasy andthat hope that we're going to
get the HEA and all that stuff.
(27:48):
So it's like if you do the work,like you said, the character
work, if you understand, likewhy certain conventions and key
scenes or tropes could play intothis and you understand that
deeper, why.
I think it's like you just haveso many things to work with and
so much to play with, so muchyou can make unique to your
story.
But yeah, it's pretty fun.
Angela Haas (28:09):
Yes, yeah, it was really fun, and I actually have
three more romances outlinedbecause I'm going to make them
duologies.
That's another one that a lotof people are doing like taking
one character from and carryingthat person over to being a love
interest, where they were kindof a side character.
So that's the new challenge andI've heard that readers really
(28:31):
are liking duology.
So it's not like investing inan entire series but just having
those two where you get alittle bit more of that world
but you're not like okay,there's six books in this.
Savannah Gilbo (28:43):
Well, it's so fun too, because usually in the
second book the couple from thefirst book will make a little
cameo and you get those feelingsof like everything's good for
them, so yeah, that's so cool.
And so this book is called myPlus One Equals you, and we will
link to that in the show notesas well.
So I wanna also ask you why youdecided to self-publish,
(29:04):
because you have self-publishedthe Keepers of the Universe
series and my Plus One Equalsyou.
Angela Haas (29:10):
Yes, and I was on the fence about my Plus One
Equals you because a few peoplereading it said you should try
to pitch this because it's goodand I'm saying that's they read
the better draft.
So I think they didn't read theawful first draft.
But I just decided there's prosand cons with each and I think
(29:31):
tread publishing if you can geta deal it's fantastic and
there's rewards.
But the more research I did forme I think the road to tread
publishing is the long game.
It doesn't happen instantly.
Even if you get an agent andthen your book goes back to
editing, maybe back to coverdesign, it takes a little bit of
(29:51):
the control out from you andthere's just no guarantees.
Where, for me, I was so excitedabout my romance and my keepers
books that I just wanted to doit my way and get it out there.
It is more tiring doingmarketing and things like that,
but I wanted to.
It is back to trusting myselfin that.
(30:13):
I feel strongly about thecovers.
I had really good peopleworking on them, book brush and
yummy covers.
They're great to work with andI wanted to do it my way and get
it out there.
So I'm not waiting for possiblyyears getting you get rejected.
Maybe you get something, maybeyou don't, and then that's time
ticking where my story could beout there, right?
(30:33):
So that was the biggest part ofthat decision.
Savannah Gilbo (30:36):
Yeah, I love that and you're right, because
not only does it take a longtime, but then it's like I've
seen some people get close tothe finish line and something
bad happens and it all fallsapart.
So you just really never knowand it takes so long.
But now, being on the opposite,like the other side of the
fence, do you have any regretsabout choosing that route?
Angela Haas (30:55):
No, I think the only regret I have is I'd like
to try pitching once.
I just like to try it.
I want to have that experience.
I want to know what it's liketo actually try to find an agent
query pitch.
That's another skill and so Imay do it down the road, just
(31:15):
because, at the point to have aromance that I could do it with,
I have nothing to lose If itdoesn't happen, I can
self-publish.
But I think maybe just notgetting that chance to try it
and see, and yeah, I don't know.
Savannah Gilbo (31:29):
Plus, you're such a learner like you probably
just want the experience too.
You know, I do.
Angela Haas (31:33):
I like to have all experience.
I'm a sponge, I just want toabsorb everything.
Savannah Gilbo (31:38):
So, yeah, maybe someday the good news that I
know about you is you're doing alot to build your audience
already.
So you, not only do you havefree books out, but you're
starting a podcast and you'redoing you're, you're doing a lot
to build your audience already.
So not only do you have freebooks out, but you're starting a
podcast and you're doing you're, you're coming on podcasts.
You're doing a lot of things tobuild your readership and
that's going to be appealing forthe day when you ever happen to
query agents.
So all good things, but you'llhave to keep me posted.
(32:00):
If you have any big learningsthat way, or if any success is
that way, we'll have to have youback and hear about some of
that I definitely will,definitely.
So, Angela, I'm going to takeyou back to that day that you
pulled out the manuscript andyou were like this is something
I want to do.
If you could tell yourselfanything back then, what would
you say?
I?
Angela Haas (32:22):
would say trust yourself.
And I had to really go throughthis because I went through with
I had compare itis.
I had my book is never going tobe good enough itis.
And I gave away a lot of likemy power and my storytelling
because I was feeling soinsecure that I wasn't good
(32:42):
enough.
You are good enough and peopleare waiting for your story.
And I needed to, like trustmyself more so that I wouldn't
have gone down all these routeslike saying, oh, I need this
help and I need to sign up forthis and I need to follow this
person's advice and I think Ishould do this, but this
person's telling me different.
(33:03):
I guess they're the expert.
I'll go with them and a lot oftimes that works.
Trusting you, that workedbeautifully.
But when you do it too much andnot say you know what, I really
feel strongly that this shouldbe in my story.
Yeah, and trust yourself.
That's where you can avoid alot of heartache because you're
(33:25):
not going to give your voiceaway so much.
You need to be open to feedback.
You need to be willing to killyour darlings, even though
you're in love with them, ifthree alpha readers are saying
this doesn't work, you got tolet it go, but trust yourself
more than you think you do, andthat's what I would have told my
previous self.
Savannah Gilbo (33:45):
Yeah, I love that and it makes so much sense
based on everything you've beenthrough and something that I do
in.
I have a business world whereI'm running my business, and
then I have my writing worldwhere I have mentors on each
side, you know, and there'speople I love for things on each
side and what I do, because Ican really fall into overwhelm
quick and I can get, like yousaid, all the voices in my head
(34:06):
of I should do this, but I feellike I should do that and
there's so many opinions onthings right, and what I've seen
on both sides of the fence isthat everyone's advice is
basically trying to get you tothe same point.
So, instead of if we takeplotting methods, for example,
it's the perfect example.
There's save the cat.
There's snowflake method,there's story grid there's the
(34:26):
perfect example.
There's save the cat, there'ssnowflake method, there's story
grid, there's three actstructure, there's all these
different things and hero'sjourney.
We're never going to have ourstory like check off each box
perfectly, because it's eachperson's interpretation of like
this is how you write a story.
However, they're all trying toget you to the same spot, so
it's like whatever one resonateswith you go with that.
I always say I'm limited tothree mentors, that I'm gonna
(34:47):
really stick to their advice.
One of those mentors is me, solike I get a seat at the table
too, so me.
And then I'm gonna pick twoother people.
That's like all right if I losteveryone else.
These are the people that makesense, and so for anyone, I feel
like someone out therelistening needed to hear
something like that.
So you're hearing it from meand Angela like blinders and
also, trust your gut.
Angela Haas (35:08):
Yes, trust your gut Absolutely.
Savannah Gilbo (35:15):
I love that so much.
Okay, well, angela, is thereanything else you would love to
impart on listeners?
Angela Haas (35:19):
before I let you go .
No, maybe just you can't seetoo far down the road right and
doing being a self-publishedauthor.
It's full of potholes.
That road is full of potholes.
But I never thought I'd besitting here on Savannah Gilbo's
podcast.
I mean, you're my idol,honestly, and I was a listener,
(35:39):
listening in my car, withnothing, and now I have three
books out Due to your guidance,like I seriously acknowledge you
in every novel, because itmeant so much to me to have you
as that guide and to be in yourclass, to be on that coaching
session.
You just never know where thoseconnections are going to take
you.
So it'll happen.
(36:00):
Just be patient and you'll getthere.
Savannah Gilbo (36:03):
Yeah, listeners won't be able to see me, but
I've got some tears in my eyesbecause that means so much to me
.
Angela Haas (36:07):
Thank you for that.
Savannah Gilbo (36:08):
Angela, we're going to link to all your where
we can find you on the internetyour books and all that good
stuff in the show notes.
But thank you so much forcoming on the show and for
sharing everything withlisteners.
I know they're going to lovethis episode.
Thank you so much.
Angela Haas (36:22):
Thanks for having me.
Savannah Gilbo (36:30):
So that's it for today's episode.
As always, thank you so muchfor tuning in and for showing
your support.
If you want to check out any ofthe links I mentioned in this
episode, you can find them inthe show notes listed in the
description of each episodeinside your podcast player or at
savannahgilbocom forward slashpodcast.
If you're an Apple user, I'dreally appreciate it if you took
(37:00):
a few seconds to leave a ratingand a review.
Your ratings and I'll seeepisode next week full of
actionable tips, tools andstrategies to help you become a
better writer.
So I'll see you next week anduntil then, happy writing.
Everyone's style works for everyone, but for me,
I need just like bullet pointsRight and I wanted to do better.
I wanted the framework.
I wanted to learn how to writea better book, to organize it
and to get it together, insteadof just at first, I just had
fiends floating around, I didn'treally know what I was doing
and so, taking that course, Iwas able to go step by step and
(00:25):
start from the beginning,instead of just floundering.
Savannah Gilbo (00:31):
Welcome to the Fiction Writing Made Easy
podcast.
My name is Savannah Gilbo andI'm here to help you write a
story that works.
I want to prove to you thatwriting a novel doesn't have to
be overwhelming, so each week,I'll bring you a brand new
episode with simple, actionableand step-by-step strategies that
you can implement in yourwriting right away.
So whether you're brand new towriting or more of a seasoned
(00:52):
author looking to improve yourcraft, this podcast is for you.
So pick up a pen and let's getstarted.
In today's episode, we're goingbehind the scenes of one
writer's journey to hear how shepublished not one, but two
books in the last six months.
One's a really fun space operathat's the second book in a
series and the other is aromantic comedy.
(01:15):
My guest's name is Angela Haas,and she is a small business
owner turned author of threepublished books.
You'll hear about what it waslike to switch from writing
science fiction to writingromantic comedy.
What happened when Angela hadnot one, but two terrible
experiences with book editorsone who called her book spoofy
and the other who randomlyrewrote passages of her story
(01:37):
and how, despite how devastatingboth experiences were, angela
did not give up.
Also, angela shares what madethe tricky advice to show, don't
tell finally stick, and how sheapproaches outlining as a
diehard pantser and why sheultimately decided that
self-publishing was the rightpath for her.
But before we dive into all ofthat, I want to read you the
(01:58):
back cover copy of the two booksthat we're going to talk about
today.
So the first is called Secondsto Oblivion and it's the second
book in Angela's Keepers of theUniverse series.
So this is her sci-fi spaceopera book, and the back cover
says In a battle for the galaxy,love and duty collide.
To escape the pain of her past,marlene Mason settles into a
(02:19):
mundane life Work, sleep, repeat, nothing to challenge her, no
decisions to be made.
When a harrowing trafficaccident awakens powers that
shatter her safe place, she ispropelled into an adventure
forcing her to confront theghosts that haunt her, while the
(02:39):
vengeful Zuldari commander,pharaoh, starts playing
dangerous games with otherpeople's lives In war.
Love is complicated.
Commander Callahan Merritt hasa mission, and it doesn't
include fully surrendering tohis feelings for Marlene.
For Cal, it's easier to be asoldier than a lover.
As Pharaoh's malevolent griptightens on Marlene and her
allies, the line between friendand foe blurs.
Cal must learn to put love overduty and Marlene must trust in
(03:01):
her newfound strength to saveher homeworld from annihilation.
In the second installment of theCaptivating Keepers of the
Universe series, join Marlene ona heart-pounding journey from
the depths of alien oceans tothe scorching deserts of Nevada.
With the fate of the Sentinelsand the galaxy hanging in the
balance, can Marlene unlock hertrue power to ensure a future
(03:21):
worth fighting for?
Okay, so that is Angela's bookcalled Seconds to Oblivion and
again, it's the second book inher Keepers of the Universe
series.
It's a space opera, sci-fi book, and now we're going to totally
shift gears and talk about herromantic comedy.
So this one is called my PlusOne Equals you.
And here's what the back coversays they're just trying to
(03:43):
survive wedding season untillove crashes the party.
It's wedding season inScottsdale, the perfect backdrop
for love, unless you're Rachelor Cameron.
For Rachel, wedding fever isdifficult to escape, especially
since she's a 34-year-oldperpetual bridesmaid.
For Cam, who invests more inhis bakery than his heart,
weddings are just another eventto survive.
(04:04):
Desperate to avoid the endlessparade of I do's alone, rachel
and Cam make a pact Be eachother's plus one for the
season's weddings.
The rules are simple Don'tovercomplicate things, be there
for each other and, mostimportantly, don't fall in love
Easy right.
When their exes reappear,stirring up old emotions, their
resolve is tested.
(04:25):
Amid the swirl of confetti andwedding vows, they confront
their growing feelings andlingering past.
Will the irresistible pull oflove force them to break the
rules?
Dive into a steamy, humorousand heartfelt story where love
may be the wedding guest thatneither Rachel nor Cameron saw
coming?
Now we will, of course, link toboth books in the show notes,
(04:46):
but let's go ahead and diveright into my conversation with
Angela Haas.
Hi, angela, welcome to theFiction Writing Made Easy
podcast.
Angela Haas (04:56):
Hi, thank you so much for having me.
My name is Angela Haas and Iactually started listening to
Fiction Writing Made Easy a longtime ago.
It was one of the very firstpodcasts I ever listened to when
I was just starting out, and Iloved it because it was so
helpful for me.
So it really started to guideme.
(05:17):
But previously I'm actually asmall business owner.
My husband and I own eightretail brick and mortars and
that's.
I've been doing that for 30years and in the business a
while ago I was an art buyer,book buyer and just merchandiser
(05:37):
.
So have that experience andthen less that, just because
it's hard to work with yourhusband.
So I went on to get my master'sin communication and started
teaching college classes justcollege, public speaking, mass
media and business classes.
And then during COVID, thought,hey, I've always been a writer,
(06:00):
I've always loved writing sinceI was a kid.
Maybe I'll pull out this thingI started in high school and
dust it off and see what I cando with it.
Savannah Gilbo (06:09):
And now here we are One of the cool things that
came from COVID, right is?
You became a published author.
Yes, talk about really coolfull circle moments.
You were a listener of thepodcast we're going to talk
about.
You came into the Notes tonovel course and then look at
all the things you've done since, which is so cool.
So I want to rewind you likeall the way back to, if you can
(06:30):
remember, in COVID times, whenyou pulled out that book from
high school and you're like,maybe I'm going to give it
another shot.
What happened?
I'm sure you were like most ofus.
You went to the internet andyou were Googling how to do the
various things.
Angela Haas (06:51):
But did you make progress with that Like just
talk me through, kind of thatfirst attempt?
Well, it actually was.
I almost quit right before Istarted because we're so
connected.
We're so much more connectednow because there's writer
groups with Slack and Discordand we have circles now.
Before that I didn't really haveanyone, I was only reading
Writer's Digest, I didn't knowanything else, and they had a
contest in there where if youpaid for this course, you could
(07:12):
pitch your outline for your bookto an agent and they'd give you
feedback and maybe take you on.
So I'm thinking, okay, I'vealways loved my story, it's just
about superheroes in space.
I've always loved my story.
It's just about superheroes inspace.
So I went to the course,pitched the outline and she
ripped it to shreds and it washard because it wasn't like a
(07:33):
cold call to someone.
I was following the courseinstructions and I was thinking
you'd get some feedback and shewas like this sounds spoofy,
it's not good.
And so I went to Facebook cryingin this one writer's group I
was in like is this normal, doesthis happen?
And this lady saw my post andsaid no, join my group, find
(07:55):
Savannah Gilbo's podcast, findthese other podcasts and keep
going.
And so from that I was like youknow what I'm determined but
I'm going to take that feedback,even though it hurts so bad,
and I'm going to start writingthis over from scratch and
reading and learning, takingnotes to novel course and
starting to learn how toactually put a novel together.
(08:17):
And so out of that rising fromthose ashes of just feeling her,
it just turned out really well.
Savannah Gilbo (08:26):
Yeah, and it's such a hard experience to go
through something like that.
I know a lot of writers whohave similar stories and it's
unfortunate because I think,after kind of seeing all these
different writers go through it,that person probably meant well
, I would hope, but the way thatthey're delivering what they're
trying to say isn't always thebest or the most constructive,
and I kind of wish that we allknew how to give feedback in a
(08:49):
positive, constructive way andthings like that, just so we
would never have to hear storieslike this, because it kills me,
it makes me, so upset to hearyou be like, I almost quit.
And now look at you.
You're like publishing yourthird book, yeah.
I'm so glad for that woman inthe Facebook group that was like
no, no, this is not good, thisis not normal, and also for you,
(09:10):
you know, having the tenacityto get back into it.
Angela Haas (09:14):
Yeah, and I think it was hard because it was my
first real attempt to put myselfout there.
I think that's as authors we'realways like do I really want
people to read this?
It's so intimate for you, it'slike been in your head and now
you put it out for people tojudge.
But it put me through thatright away, and so it was easier
(09:34):
for me to accept other feedbackor criticism, because it's
going to happen.
Savannah Gilbo (09:39):
It's going to happen, and it's hard because
you never know what people arebringing to your feedback.
So sometimes that's the hardpart about writers groups or
critique groups is maybe someonejust had an experience like
that and so they're going topick on you because they don't
know how else to do thingsExactly.
So it's so hard.
Getting feedback is so hard,which is why I always recommend
to people like, if you canafford, to hire someone to help
(10:02):
you with it, or to you know adevelopmental editor, even paid
beta readers like the spun yarn,whoever that they're trained to
give you feedback in thatconstructive way.
It's just so much better.
But I know not everyone can dothat.
So you have to be conscious ofwho you're asking into your
world to read your story and togive you their thoughts.
Angela Haas (10:22):
Yeah, exactly, and you still have to be open to
feedback too.
I mean, sometimes it does hurt,but sometimes it can open you
up to being like you know what?
I can make this so much better.
Thank you, Even the bad stuff.
And you have to kind of knowour reviews that were hard, but,
yes, I took it and it made mebetter.
Savannah Gilbo (10:43):
So yeah, and those are hard too.
Right, it's like you wish youcould know.
A does this person read sci-fi?
B do they like humor in theirsci-fi?
Right, Like you wish you couldget context.
But unfortunately all we get isthat text and we all get the
one, two star, three starreviews and they all hurt.
It is just a part of it.
But for personally and for thewriters I work with, I'm like
(11:04):
every time you read one of those, go read like three of your
good reviews, because, yes, youneed to feel those just as much
and they're there too.
We just sometimes discount thema little.
Angela Haas (11:16):
Yeah, exactly, we focus on the bad ones, and yeah
that I've had a lot of goodreviews too yeah, but okay.
Savannah Gilbo (11:23):
So you're a little phoenix rising out of the
ashes of that feedback, and soyou found this woman and she
said hey, that's not normal.
You started listening to thepodcast and then what made you
sign up for the Notes to Novelcourse?
Angela Haas (11:36):
Well, I actually went through StoryGrid and then
saw that you're a StoryGrideditor.
There's so much that comes atyou when you're a story grid
editor.
There's so much that comes atyou when you're trying to decide
what to sign up for.
The reason I took the plungewith the Notes to Novel course
is because of your podcast,because the way that you present
information is so clear andconcise and it's so organized
(12:01):
that it's easy for me to listen.
Learn.
Just your style for me is justso much easier because sometimes
and there's no criticismEveryone's style works for
everyone.
But for me, I need just likebullet points Right, and I
wanted to do better.
I wanted the framework.
I wanted to learn how to writea better book, to organize it
(12:24):
and to get it together insteadof just at first I just had
fiends floating around, I didn'treally know what I was doing,
and so, taking that course, Iwas able to go step by step and
start from the beginning insteadof just floundering.
Savannah Gilbo (12:41):
Yeah, which is great.
Angela Haas (12:42):
Yeah.
Savannah Gilbo (12:43):
Because you wanted to write more than one
book too.
I know the sci-fi book was.
You always talked about itbecoming a series, and then also
I knew you had other ideasbeyond just that series.
So that process is reallyimportant.
Again, wherever you get yourprocess from, whoever's
listening, whatever process youlike, whatever makes sense,
having that process to come toevery time you have an idea is
(13:03):
huge, yes, and so I love thatthat helped.
And was there anything I alwayslike to ask people?
Was there anything you wereworried about before you signed
up?
Because, like you said, there'sso many things out there.
So if it were me, I might belike gosh, there's so many
things.
What if this is just anotherthing that doesn't work?
Or you know, was there anythinglike that?
Angela Haas (13:28):
doesn't work, or you know, was there anything
like that?
I know because I had listenedto so many of your podcasts so I
knew it was going to be good.
I just I didn't have a concern,that's good.
There's some things where, butI I I knew your style.
Even your website is clear.
It just I knew it was going tobe good from signing up, so yeah
no problems, that's good andI'm glad it paid off.
Savannah Gilbo (13:48):
So when you were in the course, if you were to
think back and I was to say whatis the one thing that made the
biggest difference, is thereanything that stands out when I
ask that question?
Angela Haas (14:09):
don't tell part and for me, the ways that you
taught how to do that.
I was looking it up and it justwasn't clicking for me.
But it was something that I wasstruggling with because I had
so much passive voice and then Ithink, being a teacher, I felt
like I over had to explaineverything, like telling you
know, like I'm writing asyllabus, or instructing here's
how a fight scene works, punch A, punch B.
(14:31):
But when I was listening toShow Don't Tell, just the way
that you presented it, it madeso much more of an impact.
I remember that I need to.
I don't know if I can get intothe specifics, because I took it
like a few years ago but I willremember that because it
clicked and now I get it,Whereas I just wasn't getting it
(14:54):
before.
But that section specifically,it all was great, but that
section was really helpfulbecause I felt like there was
stuff in there that you don'tsee everywhere else.
Savannah Gilbo (15:04):
Yeah, and for listeners who don't have that
behind the scenes, look at thatlesson.
In the course we talk aboutdifferent levels of show and
tell.
So, yes, we show and tell onthe sentence level and that's
the common advice of themoonlight glinted on the knife
or whatever.
But it's also about showing howyour character reacts to things
, how they're processing theexternal events around them and
(15:25):
things like that.
But it tends to be a favoritelesson, so I'm glad it impacted
you.
And then I'm super curious nowbecause you said your first
outline that you submitted tothat contest slash for feedback
didn't work and you got somenegative feedback.
You also did an outline inNotes to Novel.
Do you remember if there was?
I know it was so long ago, butdo you remember if there was
(15:45):
anything significant about howyou did the two outlines?
Angela Haas (15:50):
You know, the notes to novel outline was obviously
so much better because I'm sucha pantser and so I'm like
starting at the end, writing arandom scene there, working
backward, filling in somethingwith the middle and then trying
to connect them, which there's alot of people do that and
(16:11):
they're really successful.
There's a lot of people do thatand they're really successful.
I started to learn that thatwas making my job harder,
because then I ended up likeworking so hard on this final
scene, ending up cutting itbecause it started over.
So with the notes to noveloutline book that truly was I
started from point A and went toB and actually did an outline
(16:32):
and I got learning from you.
It wasn't as attached to likejust do kind of a brief
framework.
I didn't have to like have thatwhole scene nailed down and
just the flow and that outline.
That book started to cometogether much easier than the
first one before I took thecourse.
Savannah Gilbo (16:50):
Yeah, and I think what you said is really
important, because a lot ofpantsers will hear the word
outline and they're just kind oflike, don't talk to me about
that.
Outlines can be anything youwant.
It's the goal is to help you,the writer, see the big sweep of
your story, and you can takethat as high level or as
granular as you want.
So it's just like Angela said,the goal is to not waste your
(17:10):
time later or to not throw awaythings later when you can kind
of work out some of that stuffin the outline.
So I'm glad that that worked aswell.
So, okay, now here's where Ikind of left you and I didn't
know what happened to you for awhile.
I, you know, I saw you, I gotyour email, saw you around the
internet and things like that,but I didn't know what you were
doing from leaving notes tonovel to one day I got an email
(17:32):
in my inbox that said a writeryou follow published a new book
and I was like, oh my gosh, shepublished this book.
So what did you do betweenleaving notes to novel and
publishing your book, which?
This is the book two of yourKeepers in the Universe series
called Seconds to Bliss.
Angela Haas (17:48):
So tell me about that time in between I was like
raring to go and I reallyfinished like that first draft
came together really quickly.
But then I struggled finding aneditor.
The person that I worked beforewas Asa Radar.
I found a new editor that wasrewriting things without track
(18:11):
changes on and which is adangerous place to be, because I
really lost my voice in thebook.
And I remember I submittedanother scene for a coaching
session with you where we did anonline coaching session and
that was really helpful and itended up completely rewriting it
based on the feedback I got inthat coaching scene.
(18:32):
But what I learned to do waseven I only did one coaching
scene with you and I took thatadvice and I was able to apply
it to the whole novel.
So even though again I had toface adversity and start over
and rewrite the whole thing theway I wanted, I still had those
lessons in the back of my mind.
So the second rewrite cametogether faster, found another
(18:55):
great editor.
It all just kind of cametogether at a successful book
launch sold 40 books at my booklaunch, yeah.
So it was kind of up in air.
There was a few times I wantedto just quit, like you, just get
to this point, like it's not.
I can't do this you know this isso hard and they just keep
going because now, seeing thatit's done, that is so worth it.
(19:19):
Everything I went through, it'sso worth it.
Savannah Gilbo (19:22):
Well, and it's so hard again too, because, like
, not only is, let's say,everything goes right, it's
still a marathon, right, likeit's still hard and tiring and
it's you get all these emotionswhen you're writing the book,
editing the book and publishingthe book and all that, but also
you did have some pretty severehiccups, like you said, with
even at the starting gate, whereyou're like I don't know if I
want to continue and I want togo back to what you said,
(19:43):
because I'm sure listeners theirears were like pinged, like oh
my God, someone was rewritingyour draft.
Angela told me the other day,when we were chatting, that an
editor, like she said, wasbasically rewriting pieces of
her story without track changeson, so she couldn't find where
her story was and where theirwriting was, which became a big
(20:03):
nightmare.
And you were like again, is itworth going on?
This is so hard.
So you had some pretty severeroad bumps or roadblocks to go
up across and you still pushedthrough it because I think it
meant so much to you.
Angela Haas (20:18):
To finish, yes, and I worked so hard on it.
I really believed in the story.
I really wanted people to meetthe new keeper because my series
is more like Avengers, wherethere's each one is like an
origin story in a connecteduniverse.
And she was so different thanthe first Keeper that I was like
I've got to get her out thereand I just I loved the book and
(20:40):
I just invested so much.
You don't want to give up.
If you can keep going, the wayout is through.
Savannah Gilbo (20:47):
That's for sure.
And it's so funny because everytime you bring up the like the
getting the scene feedback onthat one scene, I still a
hundred percent remember thatwhole scene because I love your
story.
It's a quirky space opera.
It showcases women that arestrong and, like you said,
there's a new keeper every bookand who doesn't love like a fun
(21:07):
little trip to Vegas in a spaceopera?
So it was just so fun.
But okay, so that that'samazing.
We're going to link to thatbook Again.
That is Seconds to Oblivion,it's book two in your Keepers of
the Universe series and that'syour sci fi series.
Now let's shift gears and Iwant to hear about what made you
(21:28):
start trying to write a romance, or writing a romance, because
at the time we're recording it'sactually out available for
pre-order.
Yes, what was that shift like?
Because a lot of writers willask me like is it weird to write
in multiple genres?
Is it way harder, is it?
Angela Haas (21:42):
they're just it's enough writing one book, right,
and then you're going to switchgenres.
What's that like?
Yeah, and I actually I wasdoing that at the same time, so
I was waiting for edits to comeback.
I've got this story in my brainthat just popped up and I'm
just going to put it down.
And I just started writing it.
It just started coming to meand it was so weird because I
(22:03):
always have romantic subplotsand I'd been doing a lot of
research.
Romance is obviously the numberone selling genre and I was like
, oh I can, I love romance.
I've been doing romance andwatching romance and devouring
romance my whole life.
No, it's so different,especially coming from like a
(22:24):
sci-fi, fantasy world whereyou're making up magic systems,
superhero systems.
In sci-fi.
You have to get all thistheoretical, non-existent
weapons and world stuff down.
If you don't, even though it'sfake and imaginary, it doesn't
work.
So the slog of really worldbuilding is intense.
(22:49):
I thought it was going to beeasier to write the romance.
However, you have to follow therules still.
There's still so much to learnabout tropes and emotional
wounds.
And are you doing romanticcomedy and what does that look
like?
The hardest thing was likenailing like where, what's my
lane as far as like intimatescenes?
(23:09):
Where am I going with that?
I decided, since my mother'sreading it, I'm going to be
lower spice but not closed door.
So I mean you have to do a lotof research.
I started just reading romancenovels and then learning from
them and then just writing thesetwo people and realizing you
know what.
I was a bridesmaid five timesin the year 2000.
(23:31):
Once a weekend I had a majorwedding.
One was in a barn, one wasGreek Orthodox, one was a giant
$200,000 blowout in Denver,colorado.
I have all these weddingstories so I drew upon those and
I just started writing thisromance.
And now it's there.
(23:52):
That's amazing this romance andnow it's there.
That's amazing.
Yeah, it was the only lastthing I'll say.
It was easier from a standpointlike I was writing from a world
that exists.
It's based in Scottsdale.
I lived part-time in Scottsdale, I know what the restaurants
are, what the weather's like,and that was so much easier than
coming up with the sci-fifantasy world.
(24:13):
Right.
But, that was fun yeah.
Savannah Gilbo (24:14):
Yeah, that's so cool and I love like you hit on.
What I love about genre fictionis that, yes, it's all fiction,
but each genre is its ownlittle world and its own little
bubble and there's rules andthere's really good things that
we all love about books of thatgenre, and then there's things
that make it challenging.
And you tell me if this iscorrect.
(24:37):
But I would imagine that bothof your genres are going to be
stronger, having written in twogenres now, because it's like
you just learned more tools foryour toolbox.
Angela Haas (24:43):
Yes, yes, and there's things I can apply to
both, because ultimately, itcomes down to how strong your
characters are.
For me, I feel like that's whatreaders love, because I learned
a lot actually just going onand reading one-star reviews
from trad pub authors to indieauthors Not that all of them,
some of them are just people whoare cranky, but some are like.
(25:05):
You can learn a lot by whatreaders don't like, and that
taught me a lot about what tomaybe avoid in the romance genre
, and so, yeah, each one is itsvery own, but I can apply things
to both now, yeah, and do youhave an example off the top of
your head of like what you mighthave learned from a one-star
review?
(25:26):
A lot of people don't.
In romance, specifically thethird act breakup.
I'm learning that that'sbecoming a problem, or anything
that can be really solved bysimple communication, like a
misunderstanding that gets blownout of proportion leads to a
breakup when all the otherperson had to do was maybe pick
(25:47):
up the phone and just talk aboutit.
Readers don't like that andthey don't like whiny love
interests on either side.
Savannah Gilbo (25:59):
It's so funny because the way you know, I look
at things like that and I'mlike what would I imagine is the
root of why they don't like it?
And it's probably because it'sjust not done well.
So like a third act breakupwhen it works, and it's really
gut-wrenching and you're justlike, oh my God, how are they
going to fix this?
That's like you're a master ofyour craft.
When you can do something likethat, like hit that key scene,
(26:19):
you can also, of course, like,do something totally different.
So maybe they don't break up,maybe they separate for whatever
reason, physically oremotionally, or there's so many
ways you can play with it.
And I think that's what'sreally cool is you're doing the
work to understand, like, whatdo people not like?
What do they like?
And then how do I make it me?
Yeah, I think that's sofascinating.
Angela Haas (26:40):
Yeah, and I'm older than you.
I was writing I'm almost 50.
So I'm a little more thanNicole as far as love goes
sometimes, although I'm marriedto a wonderful husband.
But I was so thinking back onmy younger 20-something single
dating life, I'm like ugh.
(27:00):
No, I'm not putting this inthere, it's a different mindset
it is.
It's totally different.
I was applying at first toomuch logic to the romance and
that's one thing.
I did have to learn that thereis a fantasy piece Like it's not
that.
I'm like well, if they justtalk this over, it's fine.
(27:20):
So I guess that's not an issue.
But I had to be like don't beso logical.
There is fantasy and romance.
Savannah Gilbo (27:27):
Yeah, and different worldviews and
different ways of interpretingthings, and I think that's one
of the key things that I see alot of drafts that don't work,
and it's like you have to buildin the internal logic for who
these people are in order forthe overall logic to make sense.
With that mix of fantasy andthat hope that we're going to
get the HEA and all that stuff.
(27:48):
So it's like if you do the work,like you said, the character
work, if you understand, likewhy certain conventions and key
scenes or tropes could play intothis and you understand that
deeper, why.
I think it's like you just haveso many things to work with and
so much to play with, so muchyou can make unique to your
story.
But yeah, it's pretty fun.
Angela Haas (28:09):
Yes, yeah, it was really fun, and I actually have
three more romances outlinedbecause I'm going to make them
duologies.
That's another one that a lotof people are doing like taking
one character from and carryingthat person over to being a love
interest, where they were kindof a side character.
So that's the new challenge andI've heard that readers really
(28:31):
are liking duology.
So it's not like investing inan entire series but just having
those two where you get alittle bit more of that world
but you're not like okay,there's six books in this.
Savannah Gilbo (28:43):
Well, it's so fun too, because usually in the
second book the couple from thefirst book will make a little
cameo and you get those feelingsof like everything's good for
them, so yeah, that's so cool.
And so this book is called myPlus One Equals you, and we will
link to that in the show notesas well.
So I wanna also ask you why youdecided to self-publish,
(29:04):
because you have self-publishedthe Keepers of the Universe
series and my Plus One Equalsyou.
Angela Haas (29:10):
Yes, and I was on the fence about my Plus One
Equals you because a few peoplereading it said you should try
to pitch this because it's goodand I'm saying that's they read
the better draft.
So I think they didn't read theawful first draft.
But I just decided there's prosand cons with each and I think
(29:31):
tread publishing if you can geta deal it's fantastic and
there's rewards.
But the more research I did forme I think the road to tread
publishing is the long game.
It doesn't happen instantly.
Even if you get an agent andthen your book goes back to
editing, maybe back to coverdesign, it takes a little bit of
(29:51):
the control out from you andthere's just no guarantees.
Where, for me, I was so excitedabout my romance and my keepers
books that I just wanted to doit my way and get it out there.
It is more tiring doingmarketing and things like that,
but I wanted to.
It is back to trusting myselfin that.
(30:13):
I feel strongly about thecovers.
I had really good peopleworking on them, book brush and
yummy covers.
They're great to work with andI wanted to do it my way and get
it out there.
So I'm not waiting for possiblyyears getting you get rejected.
Maybe you get something, maybeyou don't, and then that's time
ticking where my story could beout there, right?
(30:33):
So that was the biggest part ofthat decision.
Savannah Gilbo (30:36):
Yeah, I love that and you're right, because
not only does it take a longtime, but then it's like I've
seen some people get close tothe finish line and something
bad happens and it all fallsapart.
So you just really never knowand it takes so long.
But now, being on the opposite,like the other side of the
fence, do you have any regretsabout choosing that route?
Angela Haas (30:55):
No, I think the only regret I have is I'd like
to try pitching once.
I just like to try it.
I want to have that experience.
I want to know what it's liketo actually try to find an agent
query pitch.
That's another skill and so Imay do it down the road, just
(31:15):
because, at the point to have aromance that I could do it with,
I have nothing to lose If itdoesn't happen, I can
self-publish.
But I think maybe just notgetting that chance to try it
and see, and yeah, I don't know.
Savannah Gilbo (31:29):
Plus, you're such a learner like you probably
just want the experience too.
You know, I do.
Angela Haas (31:33):
I like to have all experience.
I'm a sponge, I just want toabsorb everything.
Savannah Gilbo (31:38):
So, yeah, maybe someday the good news that I
know about you is you're doing alot to build your audience
already.
So you, not only do you havefree books out, but you're
starting a podcast and you'redoing you're, you're doing a lot
to build your audience already.
So not only do you have freebooks out, but you're starting a
podcast and you're doing you're, you're coming on podcasts.
You're doing a lot of things tobuild your readership and
that's going to be appealing forthe day when you ever happen to
query agents.
So all good things, but you'llhave to keep me posted.
(32:00):
If you have any big learningsthat way, or if any success is
that way, we'll have to have youback and hear about some of
that I definitely will,definitely.
So, Angela, I'm going to takeyou back to that day that you
pulled out the manuscript andyou were like this is something
I want to do.
If you could tell yourselfanything back then, what would
you say?
I?
Angela Haas (32:22):
would say trust yourself.
And I had to really go throughthis because I went through with
I had compare itis.
I had my book is never going tobe good enough itis.
And I gave away a lot of likemy power and my storytelling
because I was feeling soinsecure that I wasn't good
(32:42):
enough.
You are good enough and peopleare waiting for your story.
And I needed to, like trustmyself more so that I wouldn't
have gone down all these routeslike saying, oh, I need this
help and I need to sign up forthis and I need to follow this
person's advice and I think Ishould do this, but this
person's telling me different.
(33:03):
I guess they're the expert.
I'll go with them and a lot oftimes that works.
Trusting you, that workedbeautifully.
But when you do it too much andnot say you know what, I really
feel strongly that this shouldbe in my story.
Yeah, and trust yourself.
That's where you can avoid alot of heartache because you're
(33:25):
not going to give your voiceaway so much.
You need to be open to feedback.
You need to be willing to killyour darlings, even though
you're in love with them, ifthree alpha readers are saying
this doesn't work, you got tolet it go, but trust yourself
more than you think you do, andthat's what I would have told my
previous self.
Savannah Gilbo (33:45):
Yeah, I love that and it makes so much sense
based on everything you've beenthrough and something that I do
in.
I have a business world whereI'm running my business, and
then I have my writing worldwhere I have mentors on each
side, you know, and there'speople I love for things on each
side and what I do, because Ican really fall into overwhelm
quick and I can get, like yousaid, all the voices in my head
(34:06):
of I should do this, but I feellike I should do that and
there's so many opinions onthings right, and what I've seen
on both sides of the fence isthat everyone's advice is
basically trying to get you tothe same point.
So, instead of if we takeplotting methods, for example,
it's the perfect example.
There's save the cat.
There's snowflake method,there's story grid there's the
(34:26):
perfect example.
There's save the cat, there'ssnowflake method, there's story
grid, there's three actstructure, there's all these
different things and hero'sjourney.
We're never going to have ourstory like check off each box
perfectly, because it's eachperson's interpretation of like
this is how you write a story.
However, they're all trying toget you to the same spot, so
it's like whatever one resonateswith you go with that.
I always say I'm limited tothree mentors, that I'm gonna
(34:47):
really stick to their advice.
One of those mentors is me, solike I get a seat at the table
too, so me.
And then I'm gonna pick twoother people.
That's like all right if I losteveryone else.
These are the people that makesense, and so for anyone, I feel
like someone out therelistening needed to hear
something like that.
So you're hearing it from meand Angela like blinders and
also, trust your gut.
Angela Haas (35:08):
Yes, trust your gut Absolutely.
Savannah Gilbo (35:15):
I love that so much.
Okay, well, angela, is thereanything else you would love to
impart on listeners?
Angela Haas (35:19):
before I let you go .
No, maybe just you can't seetoo far down the road right and
doing being a self-publishedauthor.
It's full of potholes.
That road is full of potholes.
But I never thought I'd besitting here on Savannah Gilbo's
podcast.
I mean, you're my idol,honestly, and I was a listener,
(35:39):
listening in my car, withnothing, and now I have three
books out Due to your guidance,like I seriously acknowledge you
in every novel, because itmeant so much to me to have you
as that guide and to be in yourclass, to be on that coaching
session.
You just never know where thoseconnections are going to take
you.
So it'll happen.
(36:00):
Just be patient and you'll getthere.
Savannah Gilbo (36:03):
Yeah, listeners won't be able to see me, but
I've got some tears in my eyesbecause that means so much to me
.
Angela Haas (36:07):
Thank you for that.
Savannah Gilbo (36:08):
Angela, we're going to link to all your where
we can find you on the internetyour books and all that good
stuff in the show notes.
But thank you so much forcoming on the show and for
sharing everything withlisteners.
I know they're going to lovethis episode.
Thank you so much.
Angela Haas (36:22):
Thanks for having me.
Savannah Gilbo (36:30):
So that's it for today's episode.
As always, thank you so muchfor tuning in and for showing
your support.
If you want to check out any ofthe links I mentioned in this
episode, you can find them inthe show notes listed in the
description of each episodeinside your podcast player or at
savannahgilbocom forward slashpodcast.
If you're an Apple user, I'dreally appreciate it if you took
(37:00):
a few seconds to leave a ratingand a review.
Your ratings and I'll seeepisode next week full of
actionable tips, tools andstrategies to help you become a
better writer.
So I'll see you next week anduntil then, happy writing.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!