After years of collecting every writing craft book imaginable and studying with renowned editors, Neroli Lacey discovered that too much knowledge was actually keeping her stuck—until she learned to implement instead of accumulate.
Today I'm chatting with Neroli Lacey, author of The Perfumer's Secret (a Pulitzer Prize Finalist, International Book Awards Winner, and National Indie Excellence Award Winner), about how focusing on implementation over information finally helped her transform her messy manuscript into an award-winning Women’s Fiction novel.
In this episode, you'll hear us talk about things like:
- [05:55] Why owning "every craft book imaginable" and studying with top editors still left her with an unfinished novel (and the overwhelm that comes from trying to follow multiple systems at once)
- [07:30] The three foundational shifts that moved Neroli from scattered studying to focused execution—and finally finishing her first draft
- [10:55] Why she chose hybrid publishing over traditional (and what that two-year process actually looked like)
- [13:50] How a self-proclaimed introvert built a 3,000-person newsletter by focusing on book recommendations instead of writing updates
- [22:40] Neroli’s advice for aspiring authors who are working on finishing their first book—"You don't have to know what you're doing—you take the first step and the path appears."
If you've been collecting craft books but struggling to finish your novel, Neroli's story will resonate. Press play to discover why implementation beats accumulation every time!
🔗 Links mentioned in this episode:
- Neroli Lacey’s website
- Neroli Lacey on Instagram
- Grab a FREE copy of Neroli’s book here!
- Buy The Perfumer’s Secret by Neroli Lacey
- Sue Campbell for book marketing
- Join the Notes to Novel waitlist
⭐ Follow & Review
If you loved this episode, please take a moment to follow the show and leave a review on Apple Podcasts! Your review will help other writers find this podcast and get the insights they need to finish their books. Thanks for tuning in to The Fiction Writing Made Easy Podcast! See you next week!
Ready to stop overthinking and start writing? Join my LIVE 3-Day Writer Breakthrough Bootcamp and I'll help you go from stuck and overwhelmed to clear, confident, and ready to write your story. Click here to save your spot for just $27!
👉 Looking for a transcript? If you’re listening on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, scroll down below the episode player until you see the transcript.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
For so many years I had no idea what I was doing.
But you take the first step andthe path appears.
And I find that again and againand again in all aspects of the
writing, of the publishing, ofthe marketing.
You just set your goal and ifyou work hard enough at it, it
will come.
You'll find your pathdefinitely.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
Welcome to the Fiction Writing Made Easy
podcast.
My name is Savannah Gilbo andI'm here to help you write a
story that works.
I want to prove to you thatwriting a novel doesn't have to
be overwhelming, so each weekI'll bring you a brand new
episode with simple, actionableand step-by-step strategies that
you can implement in yourwriting right away.
So whether you're brand new towriting or more of a seasoned
(00:43):
author looking to improve yourcraft, this podcast is for you.
So pick up a pen and let's getstarted.
In today's episode, I'm sharinga conversation with Naralee
Lacey.
She's one of my past clients, astudent of my Notes to Novel
course and the author of awonderful novel called the
Perfumer's Secret.
In this episode, you're goingto hear Naralee talk about how
she owns and has studied everycraft book you could imagine,
(01:05):
but still struggled to finishher novel.
And it might surprise you tolearn that all of that knowledge
(01:28):
collecting and a National IndieExcellence Award winner in
women's fiction.
You're also going to hear how aself-proclaimed introvert built
a 3,000-person newsletter anddiscovered that she actually
loves marketing.
So if you've been buying bookafter book hoping that the next
one will finally unlock thesecrets to finishing your novel,
or if you're someone who'sdrowning in conflicting writing
(01:48):
advice.
This conversation will show youwhy sometimes less is really
more.
Now, before we get into all thedetails, I want to read you the
back cover copy of Naroli'snovel the Perfumer's Secret, so
you have a little context.
Here's what it says Zandy Watson, a 30-year-old documentary
maker from New York with ascumbag father and a broken past
, is a social justice warriorhell-bent on making movies that
(02:11):
will expose important truths.
Except she has to pay the billsand her boss insists she goes
to the south of France to makesome puff piece about a
300-year-old perfume house InGrass, the perfume capital of
the world, rich in delicateflowers.
Zandy is seduced by theperfumer's art and by Dominique
Severin, a secretive, debonairheir who is battling to preserve
(02:32):
his honor by keeping his familybusiness alive.
But behind the glamorous facade, zandy discovers a shameful
secret.
Holding a glittering chance todo what's right by telling the
truth, she faces a heartbreakingchoice.
Will she betray the lover whotrusted her with his secrets,
and will she destroy thousandsof innocent lives along the way?
All right, so that's on theback cover of Neroli's book the
(02:53):
Perfumer's Secret.
So, without further ado, let'sdive into my conversation with
Neroli Lacey.
Speaker 1 (02:59):
We were living in Minneapolis, minnesota, and we
had two small daughters.
It was extremely cold for sixmonths of the year, or maybe
nine months of the year.
We did this completely bonkersthing, which is we bought a
holiday home in the warmest partof France, in the southeast
corner of France, and the homeis between the mountains and the
(03:21):
sea.
I love the mountains, myhusband loves the sea, and we
hiked all over this land andfell in love with the slow pace
of life and the old stonevillage and with the local
tradition of pressing flowers tomake perfume.
And I just had to write a loveletter to these gorgeous
mountains, this beautifullandscape.
(03:43):
This is just an incredibleplace that has given us so much.
Years after we bought the home,I remembered that my mother, my
late mother, had taken me toGrasse as a child.
Grasse is the internationalcentre of perfume.
Because she was a trailblazingwoman who, in the 1950s and 60s,
used to sell essential oilsoils to grass, that's the
(04:05):
essence of plant flowers and infact she named me Neroli, after
a famous orange blossom calledNeroli or Le Bigard.
So I started to kind of developthis idea.
That was a sort of love letterto the region and a bit of a
love letter to my late mother,and then all sorts of amazing
(04:25):
things came together.
Even later on, we went to anamazing little house, a
restaurant in a small house, andI realized that my mother had
taken me to this house as achild in the pouring rain at
night, and it was the home ofthe big perfume house that she
(04:45):
used to sell essential oils to.
I mean, that was just anextraordinary moment.
I'd already started writing thebook, and the terraces of this
house, of this beautifulrestaurant, used to grow jasmine
, and very shortly before I wentthere, they changed it to grow
narrowly.
So I think that writing a novelis pattern making.
It's about making meaning outof disparate things.
(05:08):
But as you can see, as you canhear, there was a lot of pattern
making in this Right.
Speaker 2 (05:12):
You also put some of your background in, because tell
us a little bit about, likeyour past careers and how you
got to Zandi being a journalist.
Speaker 1 (05:20):
Ah, yes, well, I used to be a journalist.
I wrote for many years for allthe great British newspapers the
Times, the Sunday Times, theIndependent, the Guardian.
I was a feature writer on theEvening Standard, I wrote for
Vogue and I wrote for all themagazines.
I've done a lot of things.
I've been an investment bankerand a commodity trader and I've
(05:41):
got two wildly spiriteddaughters and an adventurous
stepson.
I've traveled all over theworld and all this experience
adds up to living my dream,which is now writing delicious
fiction for clever women.
Speaker 2 (05:54):
I love that.
That's like the best taglineever.
So if I could take you all theway back in time to when we met
in 2020, it was early 2020.
What had you tried before westarted working on this together
, Savannah?
Speaker 1 (06:07):
I had tried everything.
I own every book on writing anovel.
I've done every class.
I've worked with some of thegreat teachers, I've worked with
many editors and it was step bystep by step for me.
And when I came to you, I hadsomething quite messy and a lot
of passion about it and I reallydidn't know how to tie the
(06:28):
thing together.
And you helped me bring itacross the finish line in so
many ways and I'm so grateful toyou.
It was just an absolute dreamto work with you and I'm one of
the lucky people because I thinkyou don't work one-on-one with
anybody anymore but I was one ofthe lucky people to work with
you and you were just theperfect coach, because you were
(06:48):
tough but not too tough.
It was soft but not too soft.
You were just right for mePerfect.
Speaker 2 (06:54):
Oh, that's so good to hear.
And I remember some of theconversations we had, just like
it was yesterday and I waslooking through our folder of
the work we shared and I waslike, oh my gosh, how funny you
have stuff from StoryGrid, stufffrom Save the Cat, stuff from
Lisa Krohn's Like she's notjoking when she said she studied
all the things and you weretrying to implement all the
things.
And I remember that's somethingwe had talked about is you were
(07:15):
so well-versed.
Do you think that that wasalmost like a hindrance in some
way, because there were so manythings you were trying to
include in that first draft?
Speaker 1 (07:25):
I do think.
I mean I'm not sure it was thefirst draft it was, I don't know
where it was at that point.
I think that's right.
I think I'm quite left brainlogical and I've had to learn in
writing a novel to let go andlet the story come through me.
And you really pushed metowards that.
And I think the things thatreally helped for me working
with you were the theory ofgenre as it comes from story
grid, where we really figuredout what kind of story this is.
(07:47):
I mean my book's verymulti-layered.
I've got three different genres, but I can remember the big
decisions about that yeah thenworking from that on the five
c's of scene construction wasincredibly helpful.
Um, those are things that andthe inside outline I mean
getting very nerdy here, butthings that were very valuable
(08:08):
to me in pulling together all myyears of experience and getting
a book that was ready topublish.
Speaker 2 (08:14):
Yeah, and so listeners are pretty well versed
in the story grid genres atthis point, because I talk about
them a lot.
Where did you land with yourthree yes?
Speaker 1 (08:23):
The external genre is crime journalism.
I needed that.
I have a love story and thegenre that appeals to me the
most is worldview.
I will always write worldviewand it is quite a multi-layered
book and I think part of that isthat I've got three different
genres.
But you helped me be verycareful in the construction.
(08:44):
The external story has got tobe there, yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:47):
Yeah, and I know that listeners are going to find
this part super interesting,because there were times when we
were like it's a love story, no, it's a society story, no, it's
a crime story.
And we could argue all thedifferent ways and it really
came down to like well, what doyou want this to be?
And then how do we make it fityour vision?
So I just love hearing likewhat was the mess that we were
in and where did we land?
That's so fun.
And then, commercially, youcall this women's fiction.
(09:09):
Right, I do upmarket women'sfiction.
Speaker 1 (09:12):
Yes, well, I think it's got a literary feel in
terms of the style and in termsof the subjects that I tackle
the theme, the complexity of themessage, but it's also a page
turn, definitely yeah, and so weworked together.
Speaker 2 (09:27):
we had to work through things like your
character arcs, your structureand all the things that you were
saying, and then we got it to apoint where you're like OK, I
think I have what I need for now, and so we kind of didn't talk
for a while.
What were you doing in all thattime?
Speaker 1 (09:39):
Well, I was working through all the things that you
taught me.
I had an inside outline andthen I just took it scene by
scene and I made sure I had thefive C's of every scene and, in
particular, I think the turningpoint crisis and resolution was
incredibly helpful for me.
So I pulled it all the waythrough that and then you came
up with a very, very smartsuggestion, which was that I put
(10:02):
it through a beta readingservice called the Spun Yarn,
which I'm a huge fan of, andthey were extremely helpful in
terms of just getting that lastdraft done.
Speaker 2 (10:12):
Yeah, so that's great for our listeners to know,
because I know like ourlisteners love hearing the story
behind everything.
So I'm sure they're wonderingOK, you had a draft that you
felt, from the work we've donetogether and all the hard work
you did on your own, you feltgood enough about it.
And then you're like butthere's probably things I don't
know, so I'm going to go use thespun yarn and see how the
(10:33):
readers react, what they'resaying.
Was there any kind of bigpattern in their feedback or any
big aha moments?
Speaker 1 (10:37):
Yeah, what I love about the Spun Yarn and I've
actually now put threemanuscripts through them is that
you get three differentreaders' views.
So I've been in endless writinggroups and you always get one
person who's got a very strongview.
But I feel if you've got morethan one person saying the same
thing, then you better sit upand listen.
So that's what I reallyappreciated.
Speaker 2 (10:56):
Okay, and so then you did the beta reading and then
at some point you acted onwhatever feedback you got and
then I know you worked withother editors and people who
could kind of guide you throughthe publishing process.
So what was that like and whydid you decide to publish
through she Writes Press?
Speaker 1 (11:11):
It wasn't a strategic decision.
I started, I sent it out toabout five agents and a friend
had mentioned she Writes Pressand I wasn't thinking very
carefully about it.
I was just starting the processand I got some interest from
agents.
But it was very early on andshe Writes says we love this, we
want it.
(11:32):
Right now it's ready and it wasso unexpected compared to that
very long process that you gothrough with agents and it was a
pretty quick decision.
It was pretty instinctual.
It was more a kind of why not?
Than anything else and I'dspent a long time writing and it
was just time.
(11:52):
Yeah, I also thought that itwould be more collaborative than
traditional publishing andthat's what I thought.
What was that process like?
Well, that's been a hugelearning curve working with she
Writes Press.
Nobody can quite understandoutside the industry why it
takes two years from signing thecontract to publication.
But boy, there is a signing thecontract to publication.
(12:12):
But boy, there is a lot of workto do.
I mean, you've got to decidehow to position the book in the
market and that's where thecover comes in and the words
that describe it and how youposition it against other books.
And then there's the long sortof rather tedious process of the
copy edit and the brief readand first page.
You have to read the bookmultiple times until you're
ready to just about shootyourself.
(12:33):
So it's a long process but itwas fantastic to go through that
with a publisher in a rigorousway and learn what the standards
are.
I can't really imagine doingthat indie first, out of the
gate and doing.
I know some people do, but it'sa lot of work which I'm a
writer, I want to keep writing.
(12:54):
I don't really want to beimmersed in all of that and the
best thing about she Writes isthat we are very much encouraged
to collaborate with, get toknow the other writers who are
publishing in the same season.
So I led a Zoom group once amonth.
I think I led two actually forpeople publishing at the same
time as me and more recentlyI've hosted get-togethers in my
(13:17):
flat in New York.
Wow, and as you know, communityis everything in writing and
it's an extraordinary group ofpeople.
And we're still I'm stillrunning the Zoom groups, we're
still in contact, sometimes inreal life, and that's been an
(13:38):
absolute thrill.
Speaker 2 (13:39):
That's wonderful.
Yeah, community is so huge,especially because, like you
said, a lot of people don't getwhat a writer has to go through
whether it's writing the book,editing the book or getting the
book out in the world so it'snice to have people that do get
it.
So then, fast forward.
Now your book is out.
Have you done a lot of thingsin terms of marketing and, like?
I know you've been doingpodcast tours, but what else
(13:59):
have you been doing?
Speaker 1 (14:00):
Yes, I have done quite a lot and to my amazement
I found that actually I reallylove marketing.
So the story I started work atleast at the time when I signed
the contract with a brilliantmarketing coach called Sue
Campbell and she was such fun towork with.
I think I have like a dreamteam between you my book coach,
(14:23):
sue, my marketing coach, andCaroline Gilman, who helps me
with publicity.
I'm just over the moon to workwith such amazing, talented
people.
So Sue recommended that I starta newsletter, like a long time
ago, and I did what she told meand I'm amazed at what's come of
that.
I've got 3000 subscribers andmore important, or just as
(14:46):
important, is that I give bookreviews and I give some little
anecdotes about the Debbie Wterslife.
But I take the book reviewsextremely seriously.
Like it's a big job for me toscavenge for the next books to
recommend to you this month, andI don't watch TV anymore at all
.
All I do is read like voraciousand I'm loving and I'm loving
(15:08):
thinking about what makes a goodbook for my target audience and
the reading is just absolutelyincredible and I think that it
took me about three to sixmonths to find my voice, to find
being comfortable with it.
I am a journalist.
I was a journalist and I knewthat I would eventually find it.
(15:29):
But I think I've really hit mystride and it seems to resonate
with readers and I love it.
I absolutely love it.
It's an important part of mylife.
Speaker 2 (15:38):
Yeah, that's amazing.
Speaker 1 (15:39):
Yeah, another thing that I did was I was having a
chat with Sue about three monthsbefore the book was published
and she said, casually, do youwant to make money or sell books
?
And I was like I want to sellbooks because I'm not going to
make a lot of money with thefirst book.
I'm a career novelist and whenyou make those decisions in
(16:00):
marketing, as you know, they canhave a big impact because then
you're not wobbling all over theplace.
You've chosen path.
So I decided to really try hardto get reviews on Amazon in the
early days and I worked very,very hard at that.
I put my book up on BookFunneland I sent it out to about 450
people and I'm an introvert soit was hard work for me to ask
(16:26):
people to read the book and puta review on Amazon and ask them
again and again and again.
It was really good for me andyou know I've done things that
felt hard for me in themarketing and I feel really
strong and ready to tackleanything.
Speaker 2 (16:36):
That's awesome.
I love hearing that you're anintrovert, because so many
listeners are also introverts,and I love that you found a way
to make newsletters work for you, because I bet in a million
years you never imagined in thisscenario.
You probably thought it wouldbe like pulling teeth forever
and that's something I talk towriters about.
A lot is that a newsletterdoesn't have to be like.
Here's my writing update thisweek I logged 3000 words.
(16:58):
It can be that, or it can belike what you're doing, which is
sharing books that you knowthey're going to love, and that
also says okay, I read the typeof things you do.
That means I write the type ofthings you do and it's just like
.
I think that's so great thatyou kind of came at it
organically.
And then also asking forreviews.
It's so funny.
I always laugh when people arelike I had to ask again and
again and again.
(17:18):
And isn't that the truth aboutasking for reviews?
It's not just once.
Speaker 1 (17:22):
But it's quite an amazing process.
I went to see a doctoryesterday that I've only seen.
Once before in New York.
Nine months ago I saw him andaround the time I was starting
my review campaign.
Whenever I would go out intothe city I would say to a nurse
or whoever I was with what doyou do to relax?
And often enough they say Ilike to read.
And then I'd say, oh, my debutnovel is coming out and people
(17:45):
are always very excited to meetan author.
So with this particular doctor,we got into a little chat about
books and he signed up for mynewsletter, even though it's
really targeted at women.
Well, I went to see himyesterday.
I've only met this man oncebefore.
And we're sitting talking andI'm saying what are you reading?
Have you read anything goodrecently?
And we're chatting about thisand that and whatever vitamins I
(18:07):
meant to be taking.
And then he said, yeah, I havegot something I want to read
this summer.
And he walked over to hisbackpack and he pulled out a
copy of my book.
Speaker 2 (18:16):
Oh, my God.
Speaker 1 (18:17):
It's just such an amazing thing.
So you see, you have to beconstantly just asking people.
You've just got to keep makingthe ask all the time and it's
amazing what comes back at you.
Speaker 2 (18:27):
That's a great story and, just so listeners know, I
told Nerily that my mom had readher book and she's like ask
your mom to leave a review.
So she's really out thereasking to get all those reviews
and it's paying off.
I mean, 3000 people on yourlist is so great, Like I can
imagine listeners being likeyou're an introvert and you
started with no subscribers andnow you're at 3000.
That's amazing.
Speaker 1 (18:47):
When I got to 300, I said to Sue, this is making me
really nervous for 300 people.
And she said just wait, it'sonly going to get worse.
Well, honestly, now I'm at3,000.
I'm like 3,000?
.
Speaker 2 (18:59):
What about 10,000?
Yeah, you're like I'll benervous when I hit 30,000.
That's so funny.
Well, that's great, and I knowyou said that sales are coming
in well and you're happy withthe results.
But if you kind of looked backon your journey and let's say
that you were talking toyourself 10, 15 years ago, what
(19:23):
are some like pieces of adviceor like were there any
roadblocks, whether craft, wise,emotional, mental that came up
that you would want to talk toyour past self about?
Speaker 1 (19:40):
just do it.
You know you don't have to knowwhat you're doing.
For so many years I had no ideawhat I was doing, but you take
the first step and the pathappears.
And I find that again and againand again in all aspects of the
writing, of the publishing, ofthe marketing.
You just set your goal and ifyou work hard enough at it, it
will come.
You'll find your path.
Definitely.
I'm sitting down now to writemy fourth novel and I've got
(20:02):
your voice in my ear aboutimposter syndrome and I know a
lot of people you know willthink, wow, fourth novel.
You know it must feel easy.
I have incredible impostersyndrome every day, but now I
know it's just part of the workwe've chosen.
Speaker 2 (20:16):
And sometimes people will say that the more you feel
imposter syndrome or that fearit's like, the more that this is
the story you're meant to write, you know.
So maybe that's true for you,which I'm sure it is and I like
to say you hit a new level andyou get a new devil.
So like this is your devil inthe fourth book.
And a lot of people will saythat the first book was hard
because you're learning aboutcraft and like how to do this
(20:38):
thing right, and then the futurebooks are hard because now you
know how to do it, can you do itwell and can you increase your
skills and things like that.
So pretty funny.
Speaker 1 (20:48):
I also think that I'm learning now with my fourth
book to just let go and let thestory come through me.
I think I've had so muchresistance to that.
I think I've tried to write abook by learning how to do it
instead of just really trustingmy intuition and that the story
is inside.
That's what I'm learning nowwith this book and I think for
me it comes down to three C's.
(21:09):
It's craft.
You've got to be constantlylearning and reaching higher for
the next level of craft.
I work all the time at buildingcommunity, at finding writers
to connect with, to collaboratewith, to share work with, and
then courage, because youconstantly feel like you're not
it.
Speaker 2 (21:28):
Yeah, yeah.
A lot of people will chaseanother C, which is confidence.
They think if I just like showup at my desk, I need to fake it
till I make it, and it's likeno use the courage to then build
the confidence you know,because it'll come, but you have
to have the courage first.
So I love that.
And just I'm curious about thisAre all your stories kind of in
the same content genre, likethe same mix of those three?
Speaker 1 (21:49):
The story I'm working on now which is a sequel to the
Perfumer's Secret.
It's called the Vineyarder'sSecret.
Love it.
It's got a slightly differentexternal story.
It's going to be performance, Ithink, and then I will have a
love story and I will haveworldview.
I'm always going to write loveand worldview but I'm never
going to write romance.
But that's kind of the.
But I need the external to keepthe pages turning.
Speaker 2 (22:11):
And then they're all going to probably be women's
fiction because, like you said,you're not writing a romance,
but there will be romance as apiece of it.
So I think that's fun, because alot of writers listening are
probably they probably wonderthat about themselves Am I going
to stick to the same thing?
Am I going to branch out?
And I think it's a prettyhealthy mix of what people tend
to do.
They either stay in their laneor they're like I want to write
a little bit of everything, andboth are great.
(22:31):
But I'm so excited for you andI'm, you know, just thinking of
all your big dreams you havewith your books, and to hear
that you have three more in thepipeline and one is a sequel is
super exciting.
So congratulations on gettingto this point.
And is there anything any likelast minute pieces of advice you
would give to anybody?
Speaker 1 (22:49):
work with savannah.
It's just.
It's been an amazing ride,savannah, to watch you as well
and you're just.
You put such incredible workinto the world and it's of such
value to all of us laboring onour own and you've got such an
incredible body of knowledge.
It's just fantastic.
And to see you grow too intoyour voice and into your special
(23:10):
you know what's the specialtalents has just been amazing.
And I would just say to anybodykeep going, believe you know,
even if you don't believe inyourself, keep going because
it's you can definitely do it.
You've just got to put themiles in.
Speaker 2 (23:24):
Yeah, I love that and thank you so much for those
kind words.
We will link to your book andwhere we can find you around the
internet and things like that.
But is there anything else youwant to share with the audience
in terms of like freebies orfree chapters?
Speaker 1 (23:37):
I am delighted for your special audience, Savannah,
to offer a free version of thee-book.
We'll put a link in the shownotes.
I think Love it, and if youwould be so kind to help out
this debut author and put me anhonest review on Amazon, I will
be really grateful.
Thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (23:53):
Yes, and what a great example of always asking for
reviews.
I love it.
So, yes, you heard it here.
You're getting a free ebook andplease read it.
Please leave her a review and Ilook forward to having you back
on for the next book that youpublish.
Speaker 1 (24:06):
Fantastic.
Thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (24:09):
All right.
So that's it for this episodeof the Fiction Writing Made Easy
podcast.
Head over to savannahgilbocomforward slash podcast for the
complete show notes, includingthe resources I mentioned today,
as well as bonus materials tohelp you implement what you've
learned.
And if you're ready to get morepersonalized guidance for your
specific writing stage whetheryou're just starting out, stuck
(24:30):
somewhere in the middle of adraft, drowning in revisions, or
getting ready to publish, takemy free 30-second quiz at
savannahgilbocom forward slashquiz.
You'll get a customized podcastplaylist that'll meet you right
where you're at and help youget to your next big milestone.
Last but not least, make sureto follow this podcast in your
podcast player of choice,because I'll be back next week
(24:50):
with another episode full ofactionable tips, tools and
strategies to help you become abetter writer.
Until then, happy writing.
For so many years I had no idea what I was doing.
But you take the first step andthe path appears.
And I find that again and againand again in all aspects of the
writing, of the publishing, ofthe marketing.
You just set your goal and ifyou work hard enough at it, it
will come.
You'll find your pathdefinitely.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
Welcome to the Fiction Writing Made Easy
podcast.
My name is Savannah Gilbo andI'm here to help you write a
story that works.
I want to prove to you thatwriting a novel doesn't have to
be overwhelming, so each weekI'll bring you a brand new
episode with simple, actionableand step-by-step strategies that
you can implement in yourwriting right away.
So whether you're brand new towriting or more of a seasoned
(00:43):
author looking to improve yourcraft, this podcast is for you.
So pick up a pen and let's getstarted.
In today's episode, I'm sharinga conversation with Naralee
Lacey.
She's one of my past clients, astudent of my Notes to Novel
course and the author of awonderful novel called the
Perfumer's Secret.
In this episode, you're goingto hear Naralee talk about how
she owns and has studied everycraft book you could imagine,
(01:05):
but still struggled to finishher novel.
And it might surprise you tolearn that all of that knowledge
(01:28):
collecting and a National IndieExcellence Award winner in
women's fiction.
You're also going to hear how aself-proclaimed introvert built
a 3,000-person newsletter anddiscovered that she actually
loves marketing.
So if you've been buying bookafter book hoping that the next
one will finally unlock thesecrets to finishing your novel,
or if you're someone who'sdrowning in conflicting writing
(01:48):
advice.
This conversation will show youwhy sometimes less is really
more.
Now, before we get into all thedetails, I want to read you the
back cover copy of Naroli'snovel the Perfumer's Secret, so
you have a little context.
Here's what it says Zandy Watson, a 30-year-old documentary
maker from New York with ascumbag father and a broken past
, is a social justice warriorhell-bent on making movies that
(02:11):
will expose important truths.
Except she has to pay the billsand her boss insists she goes
to the south of France to makesome puff piece about a
300-year-old perfume house InGrass, the perfume capital of
the world, rich in delicateflowers.
Zandy is seduced by theperfumer's art and by Dominique
Severin, a secretive, debonairheir who is battling to preserve
(02:32):
his honor by keeping his familybusiness alive.
But behind the glamorous facade, zandy discovers a shameful
secret.
Holding a glittering chance todo what's right by telling the
truth, she faces a heartbreakingchoice.
Will she betray the lover whotrusted her with his secrets,
and will she destroy thousandsof innocent lives along the way?
All right, so that's on theback cover of Neroli's book the
(02:53):
Perfumer's Secret.
So, without further ado, let'sdive into my conversation with
Neroli Lacey.
Speaker 1 (02:59):
We were living in Minneapolis, minnesota, and we
had two small daughters.
It was extremely cold for sixmonths of the year, or maybe
nine months of the year.
We did this completely bonkersthing, which is we bought a
holiday home in the warmest partof France, in the southeast
corner of France, and the homeis between the mountains and the
(03:21):
sea.
I love the mountains, myhusband loves the sea, and we
hiked all over this land andfell in love with the slow pace
of life and the old stonevillage and with the local
tradition of pressing flowers tomake perfume.
And I just had to write a loveletter to these gorgeous
mountains, this beautifullandscape.
(03:43):
This is just an incredibleplace that has given us so much.
Years after we bought the home,I remembered that my mother, my
late mother, had taken me toGrasse as a child.
Grasse is the internationalcentre of perfume.
Because she was a trailblazingwoman who, in the 1950s and 60s,
used to sell essential oilsoils to grass, that's the
(04:05):
essence of plant flowers and infact she named me Neroli, after
a famous orange blossom calledNeroli or Le Bigard.
So I started to kind of developthis idea.
That was a sort of love letterto the region and a bit of a
love letter to my late mother,and then all sorts of amazing
(04:25):
things came together.
Even later on, we went to anamazing little house, a
restaurant in a small house, andI realized that my mother had
taken me to this house as achild in the pouring rain at
night, and it was the home ofthe big perfume house that she
(04:45):
used to sell essential oils to.
I mean, that was just anextraordinary moment.
I'd already started writing thebook, and the terraces of this
house, of this beautifulrestaurant, used to grow jasmine
, and very shortly before I wentthere, they changed it to grow
narrowly.
So I think that writing a novelis pattern making.
It's about making meaning outof disparate things.
(05:08):
But as you can see, as you canhear, there was a lot of pattern
making in this Right.
Speaker 2 (05:12):
You also put some of your background in, because tell
us a little bit about, likeyour past careers and how you
got to Zandi being a journalist.
Speaker 1 (05:20):
Ah, yes, well, I used to be a journalist.
I wrote for many years for allthe great British newspapers the
Times, the Sunday Times, theIndependent, the Guardian.
I was a feature writer on theEvening Standard, I wrote for
Vogue and I wrote for all themagazines.
I've done a lot of things.
I've been an investment bankerand a commodity trader and I've
(05:41):
got two wildly spiriteddaughters and an adventurous
stepson.
I've traveled all over theworld and all this experience
adds up to living my dream,which is now writing delicious
fiction for clever women.
Speaker 2 (05:54):
I love that.
That's like the best taglineever.
So if I could take you all theway back in time to when we met
in 2020, it was early 2020.
What had you tried before westarted working on this together
, Savannah?
Speaker 1 (06:07):
I had tried everything.
I own every book on writing anovel.
I've done every class.
I've worked with some of thegreat teachers, I've worked with
many editors and it was step bystep by step for me.
And when I came to you, I hadsomething quite messy and a lot
of passion about it and I reallydidn't know how to tie the
(06:28):
thing together.
And you helped me bring itacross the finish line in so
many ways and I'm so grateful toyou.
It was just an absolute dreamto work with you and I'm one of
the lucky people because I thinkyou don't work one-on-one with
anybody anymore but I was one ofthe lucky people to work with
you and you were just theperfect coach, because you were
(06:48):
tough but not too tough.
It was soft but not too soft.
You were just right for mePerfect.
Speaker 2 (06:54):
Oh, that's so good to hear.
And I remember some of theconversations we had, just like
it was yesterday and I waslooking through our folder of
the work we shared and I waslike, oh my gosh, how funny you
have stuff from StoryGrid, stufffrom Save the Cat, stuff from
Lisa Krohn's Like she's notjoking when she said she studied
all the things and you weretrying to implement all the
things.
And I remember that's somethingwe had talked about is you were
(07:15):
so well-versed.
Do you think that that wasalmost like a hindrance in some
way, because there were so manythings you were trying to
include in that first draft?
Speaker 1 (07:25):
I do think.
I mean I'm not sure it was thefirst draft it was, I don't know
where it was at that point.
I think that's right.
I think I'm quite left brainlogical and I've had to learn in
writing a novel to let go andlet the story come through me.
And you really pushed metowards that.
And I think the things thatreally helped for me working
with you were the theory ofgenre as it comes from story
grid, where we really figuredout what kind of story this is.
(07:47):
I mean my book's verymulti-layered.
I've got three different genres, but I can remember the big
decisions about that yeah thenworking from that on the five
c's of scene construction wasincredibly helpful.
Um, those are things that andthe inside outline I mean
getting very nerdy here, butthings that were very valuable
(08:08):
to me in pulling together all myyears of experience and getting
a book that was ready topublish.
Speaker 2 (08:14):
Yeah, and so listeners are pretty well versed
in the story grid genres atthis point, because I talk about
them a lot.
Where did you land with yourthree yes?
Speaker 1 (08:23):
The external genre is crime journalism.
I needed that.
I have a love story and thegenre that appeals to me the
most is worldview.
I will always write worldviewand it is quite a multi-layered
book and I think part of that isthat I've got three different
genres.
But you helped me be verycareful in the construction.
(08:44):
The external story has got tobe there, yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:47):
Yeah, and I know that listeners are going to find
this part super interesting,because there were times when we
were like it's a love story, no, it's a society story, no, it's
a crime story.
And we could argue all thedifferent ways and it really
came down to like well, what doyou want this to be?
And then how do we make it fityour vision?
So I just love hearing likewhat was the mess that we were
in and where did we land?
That's so fun.
And then, commercially, youcall this women's fiction.
(09:09):
Right, I do upmarket women'sfiction.
Speaker 1 (09:12):
Yes, well, I think it's got a literary feel in
terms of the style and in termsof the subjects that I tackle
the theme, the complexity of themessage, but it's also a page
turn, definitely yeah, and so weworked together.
Speaker 2 (09:27):
we had to work through things like your
character arcs, your structureand all the things that you were
saying, and then we got it to apoint where you're like OK, I
think I have what I need for now, and so we kind of didn't talk
for a while.
What were you doing in all thattime?
Speaker 1 (09:39):
Well, I was working through all the things that you
taught me.
I had an inside outline andthen I just took it scene by
scene and I made sure I had thefive C's of every scene and, in
particular, I think the turningpoint crisis and resolution was
incredibly helpful for me.
So I pulled it all the waythrough that and then you came
up with a very, very smartsuggestion, which was that I put
(10:02):
it through a beta readingservice called the Spun Yarn,
which I'm a huge fan of, andthey were extremely helpful in
terms of just getting that lastdraft done.
Speaker 2 (10:12):
Yeah, so that's great for our listeners to know,
because I know like ourlisteners love hearing the story
behind everything.
So I'm sure they're wonderingOK, you had a draft that you
felt, from the work we've donetogether and all the hard work
you did on your own, you feltgood enough about it.
And then you're like butthere's probably things I don't
know, so I'm going to go use thespun yarn and see how the
(10:33):
readers react, what they'resaying.
Was there any kind of bigpattern in their feedback or any
big aha moments?
Speaker 1 (10:37):
Yeah, what I love about the Spun Yarn and I've
actually now put threemanuscripts through them is that
you get three differentreaders' views.
So I've been in endless writinggroups and you always get one
person who's got a very strongview.
But I feel if you've got morethan one person saying the same
thing, then you better sit upand listen.
So that's what I reallyappreciated.
Speaker 2 (10:56):
Okay, and so then you did the beta reading and then
at some point you acted onwhatever feedback you got and
then I know you worked withother editors and people who
could kind of guide you throughthe publishing process.
So what was that like and whydid you decide to publish
through she Writes Press?
Speaker 1 (11:11):
It wasn't a strategic decision.
I started, I sent it out toabout five agents and a friend
had mentioned she Writes Pressand I wasn't thinking very
carefully about it.
I was just starting the processand I got some interest from
agents.
But it was very early on andshe Writes says we love this, we
want it.
(11:32):
Right now it's ready and it wasso unexpected compared to that
very long process that you gothrough with agents and it was a
pretty quick decision.
It was pretty instinctual.
It was more a kind of why not?
Than anything else and I'dspent a long time writing and it
was just time.
(11:52):
Yeah, I also thought that itwould be more collaborative than
traditional publishing andthat's what I thought.
What was that process like?
Well, that's been a hugelearning curve working with she
Writes Press.
Nobody can quite understandoutside the industry why it
takes two years from signing thecontract to publication.
But boy, there is a signing thecontract to publication.
(12:12):
But boy, there is a lot of workto do.
I mean, you've got to decidehow to position the book in the
market and that's where thecover comes in and the words
that describe it and how youposition it against other books.
And then there's the long sortof rather tedious process of the
copy edit and the brief readand first page.
You have to read the bookmultiple times until you're
ready to just about shootyourself.
(12:33):
So it's a long process but itwas fantastic to go through that
with a publisher in a rigorousway and learn what the standards
are.
I can't really imagine doingthat indie first, out of the
gate and doing.
I know some people do, but it'sa lot of work which I'm a
writer, I want to keep writing.
(12:54):
I don't really want to beimmersed in all of that and the
best thing about she Writes isthat we are very much encouraged
to collaborate with, get toknow the other writers who are
publishing in the same season.
So I led a Zoom group once amonth.
I think I led two actually forpeople publishing at the same
time as me and more recentlyI've hosted get-togethers in my
(13:17):
flat in New York.
Wow, and as you know, communityis everything in writing and
it's an extraordinary group ofpeople.
And we're still I'm stillrunning the Zoom groups, we're
still in contact, sometimes inreal life, and that's been an
(13:38):
absolute thrill.
Speaker 2 (13:39):
That's wonderful.
Yeah, community is so huge,especially because, like you
said, a lot of people don't getwhat a writer has to go through
whether it's writing the book,editing the book or getting the
book out in the world so it'snice to have people that do get
it.
So then, fast forward.
Now your book is out.
Have you done a lot of thingsin terms of marketing and, like?
I know you've been doingpodcast tours, but what else
(13:59):
have you been doing?
Speaker 1 (14:00):
Yes, I have done quite a lot and to my amazement
I found that actually I reallylove marketing.
So the story I started work atleast at the time when I signed
the contract with a brilliantmarketing coach called Sue
Campbell and she was such fun towork with.
I think I have like a dreamteam between you my book coach,
(14:23):
sue, my marketing coach, andCaroline Gilman, who helps me
with publicity.
I'm just over the moon to workwith such amazing, talented
people.
So Sue recommended that I starta newsletter, like a long time
ago, and I did what she told meand I'm amazed at what's come of
that.
I've got 3000 subscribers andmore important, or just as
(14:46):
important, is that I give bookreviews and I give some little
anecdotes about the Debbie Wterslife.
But I take the book reviewsextremely seriously.
Like it's a big job for me toscavenge for the next books to
recommend to you this month, andI don't watch TV anymore at all
.
All I do is read like voraciousand I'm loving and I'm loving
(15:08):
thinking about what makes a goodbook for my target audience and
the reading is just absolutelyincredible and I think that it
took me about three to sixmonths to find my voice, to find
being comfortable with it.
I am a journalist.
I was a journalist and I knewthat I would eventually find it.
(15:29):
But I think I've really hit mystride and it seems to resonate
with readers and I love it.
I absolutely love it.
It's an important part of mylife.
Speaker 2 (15:38):
Yeah, that's amazing.
Speaker 1 (15:39):
Yeah, another thing that I did was I was having a
chat with Sue about three monthsbefore the book was published
and she said, casually, do youwant to make money or sell books
?
And I was like I want to sellbooks because I'm not going to
make a lot of money with thefirst book.
I'm a career novelist and whenyou make those decisions in
(16:00):
marketing, as you know, they canhave a big impact because then
you're not wobbling all over theplace.
You've chosen path.
So I decided to really try hardto get reviews on Amazon in the
early days and I worked very,very hard at that.
I put my book up on BookFunneland I sent it out to about 450
people and I'm an introvert soit was hard work for me to ask
(16:26):
people to read the book and puta review on Amazon and ask them
again and again and again.
It was really good for me andyou know I've done things that
felt hard for me in themarketing and I feel really
strong and ready to tackleanything.
Speaker 2 (16:36):
That's awesome.
I love hearing that you're anintrovert, because so many
listeners are also introverts,and I love that you found a way
to make newsletters work for you, because I bet in a million
years you never imagined in thisscenario.
You probably thought it wouldbe like pulling teeth forever
and that's something I talk towriters about.
A lot is that a newsletterdoesn't have to be like.
Here's my writing update thisweek I logged 3000 words.
(16:58):
It can be that, or it can belike what you're doing, which is
sharing books that you knowthey're going to love, and that
also says okay, I read the typeof things you do.
That means I write the type ofthings you do and it's just like
.
I think that's so great thatyou kind of came at it
organically.
And then also asking forreviews.
It's so funny.
I always laugh when people arelike I had to ask again and
again and again.
(17:18):
And isn't that the truth aboutasking for reviews?
It's not just once.
Speaker 1 (17:22):
But it's quite an amazing process.
I went to see a doctoryesterday that I've only seen.
Once before in New York.
Nine months ago I saw him andaround the time I was starting
my review campaign.
Whenever I would go out intothe city I would say to a nurse
or whoever I was with what doyou do to relax?
And often enough they say Ilike to read.
And then I'd say, oh, my debutnovel is coming out and people
(17:45):
are always very excited to meetan author.
So with this particular doctor,we got into a little chat about
books and he signed up for mynewsletter, even though it's
really targeted at women.
Well, I went to see himyesterday.
I've only met this man oncebefore.
And we're sitting talking andI'm saying what are you reading?
Have you read anything goodrecently?
And we're chatting about thisand that and whatever vitamins I
(18:07):
meant to be taking.
And then he said, yeah, I havegot something I want to read
this summer.
And he walked over to hisbackpack and he pulled out a
copy of my book.
Speaker 2 (18:16):
Oh, my God.
Speaker 1 (18:17):
It's just such an amazing thing.
So you see, you have to beconstantly just asking people.
You've just got to keep makingthe ask all the time and it's
amazing what comes back at you.
Speaker 2 (18:27):
That's a great story and, just so listeners know, I
told Nerily that my mom had readher book and she's like ask
your mom to leave a review.
So she's really out thereasking to get all those reviews
and it's paying off.
I mean, 3000 people on yourlist is so great, Like I can
imagine listeners being likeyou're an introvert and you
started with no subscribers andnow you're at 3000.
That's amazing.
Speaker 1 (18:47):
When I got to 300, I said to Sue, this is making me
really nervous for 300 people.
And she said just wait, it'sonly going to get worse.
Well, honestly, now I'm at3,000.
I'm like 3,000?
.
Speaker 2 (18:59):
What about 10,000?
Yeah, you're like I'll benervous when I hit 30,000.
That's so funny.
Well, that's great, and I knowyou said that sales are coming
in well and you're happy withthe results.
But if you kind of looked backon your journey and let's say
that you were talking toyourself 10, 15 years ago, what
(19:23):
are some like pieces of adviceor like were there any
roadblocks, whether craft, wise,emotional, mental that came up
that you would want to talk toyour past self about?
Speaker 1 (19:40):
just do it.
You know you don't have to knowwhat you're doing.
For so many years I had no ideawhat I was doing, but you take
the first step and the pathappears.
And I find that again and againand again in all aspects of the
writing, of the publishing, ofthe marketing.
You just set your goal and ifyou work hard enough at it, it
will come.
You'll find your path.
Definitely.
I'm sitting down now to writemy fourth novel and I've got
(20:02):
your voice in my ear aboutimposter syndrome and I know a
lot of people you know willthink, wow, fourth novel.
You know it must feel easy.
I have incredible impostersyndrome every day, but now I
know it's just part of the workwe've chosen.
Speaker 2 (20:16):
And sometimes people will say that the more you feel
imposter syndrome or that fearit's like, the more that this is
the story you're meant to write, you know.
So maybe that's true for you,which I'm sure it is and I like
to say you hit a new level andyou get a new devil.
So like this is your devil inthe fourth book.
And a lot of people will saythat the first book was hard
because you're learning aboutcraft and like how to do this
(20:38):
thing right, and then the futurebooks are hard because now you
know how to do it, can you do itwell and can you increase your
skills and things like that.
So pretty funny.
Speaker 1 (20:48):
I also think that I'm learning now with my fourth
book to just let go and let thestory come through me.
I think I've had so muchresistance to that.
I think I've tried to write abook by learning how to do it
instead of just really trustingmy intuition and that the story
is inside.
That's what I'm learning nowwith this book and I think for
me it comes down to three C's.
(21:09):
It's craft.
You've got to be constantlylearning and reaching higher for
the next level of craft.
I work all the time at buildingcommunity, at finding writers
to connect with, to collaboratewith, to share work with, and
then courage, because youconstantly feel like you're not
it.
Speaker 2 (21:28):
Yeah, yeah.
A lot of people will chaseanother C, which is confidence.
They think if I just like showup at my desk, I need to fake it
till I make it, and it's likeno use the courage to then build
the confidence you know,because it'll come, but you have
to have the courage first.
So I love that.
And just I'm curious about thisAre all your stories kind of in
the same content genre, likethe same mix of those three?
Speaker 1 (21:49):
The story I'm working on now which is a sequel to the
Perfumer's Secret.
It's called the Vineyarder'sSecret.
Love it.
It's got a slightly differentexternal story.
It's going to be performance, Ithink, and then I will have a
love story and I will haveworldview.
I'm always going to write loveand worldview but I'm never
going to write romance.
But that's kind of the.
But I need the external to keepthe pages turning.
Speaker 2 (22:11):
And then they're all going to probably be women's
fiction because, like you said,you're not writing a romance,
but there will be romance as apiece of it.
So I think that's fun, because alot of writers listening are
probably they probably wonderthat about themselves Am I going
to stick to the same thing?
Am I going to branch out?
And I think it's a prettyhealthy mix of what people tend
to do.
They either stay in their laneor they're like I want to write
a little bit of everything, andboth are great.
(22:31):
But I'm so excited for you andI'm, you know, just thinking of
all your big dreams you havewith your books, and to hear
that you have three more in thepipeline and one is a sequel is
super exciting.
So congratulations on gettingto this point.
And is there anything any likelast minute pieces of advice you
would give to anybody?
Speaker 1 (22:49):
work with savannah.
It's just.
It's been an amazing ride,savannah, to watch you as well
and you're just.
You put such incredible workinto the world and it's of such
value to all of us laboring onour own and you've got such an
incredible body of knowledge.
It's just fantastic.
And to see you grow too intoyour voice and into your special
(23:10):
you know what's the specialtalents has just been amazing.
And I would just say to anybodykeep going, believe you know,
even if you don't believe inyourself, keep going because
it's you can definitely do it.
You've just got to put themiles in.
Speaker 2 (23:24):
Yeah, I love that and thank you so much for those
kind words.
We will link to your book andwhere we can find you around the
internet and things like that.
But is there anything else youwant to share with the audience
in terms of like freebies orfree chapters?
Speaker 1 (23:37):
I am delighted for your special audience, Savannah,
to offer a free version of thee-book.
We'll put a link in the shownotes.
I think Love it, and if youwould be so kind to help out
this debut author and put me anhonest review on Amazon, I will
be really grateful.
Thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (23:53):
Yes, and what a great example of always asking for
reviews.
I love it.
So, yes, you heard it here.
You're getting a free ebook andplease read it.
Please leave her a review and Ilook forward to having you back
on for the next book that youpublish.
Speaker 1 (24:06):
Fantastic.
Thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (24:09):
All right.
So that's it for this episodeof the Fiction Writing Made Easy
podcast.
Head over to savannahgilbocomforward slash podcast for the
complete show notes, includingthe resources I mentioned today,
as well as bonus materials tohelp you implement what you've
learned.
And if you're ready to get morepersonalized guidance for your
specific writing stage whetheryou're just starting out, stuck
(24:30):
somewhere in the middle of adraft, drowning in revisions, or
getting ready to publish, takemy free 30-second quiz at
savannahgilbocom forward slashquiz.
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