September 2, 2025 • 53 mins
Discover the counterintuitive first draft editing approach that transforms messy manuscripts into page-turning novels readers love.
Most fiction writers struggle with novel revision because they jump straight into editing their manuscript after finishing their first draft. This approach leads to endless rewrites, overwhelming confusion, and stories that get stuck in endless Chapter 1 revisions, never reaching completion.
Developmental editor Alice Sudlow joins me to share her systematic approach to story editing, which helps writers overcome these revision challenges.
Her revision framework eliminates the guesswork from the editing process, so writers avoid common mistakes that can keep manuscripts stuck in development.
Here's what we cover:
[08:11] Why taking a 4-week break after finishing your first draft gives your mind the mental shift needed for effective manuscript revision.
[10:26] How to create an outline of your completed draft without making changes, yet (the crucial step that reveals your story's true structure.)
[14:38] The fundamental questions that uncover the hidden keys in your story and transform good ideas into compelling narratives that readers can't put down.
[17:46] Why developmental editing is where the real magic happens in fiction writing and how to fall in love with the revision process.
[38:01] How to escape the endless rewriting cycle that traps writers in Chapter 1 forever and finally complete your novel revisions.
Whether you're a first-time novelist struggling with how to edit your manuscript or an experienced writer looking for a better revision strategy, this episode provides the framework you need to turn your draft into a story that agents and readers will love.
Tune in now.
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If you loved this episode, please take a moment to follow the show and leave a review on Apple Podcasts! Your review will help other writers find this podcast and get the insights they need to finish their books. Thanks for tuning in to The Fiction Writing Made Easy Podcast! See you next week!
🔗 Links mentioned in this episode:
- Grab Alice’s FREE Roadmap to a Revision That Actually Works
- Your Next Draft Podcast (Hosted by Alice Sudlow)
- Alice Sudlow’s Website
👉 Looking for a transcript? If you’re listening on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, scroll down below the episode player until you see the transcript.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
If there's one fundamental thing I want to do,
I want to help.
Everybody love editing as muchas I do.
It's so, so, so fun.
To me, it's the best part ofthe whole entire writing process
, from idea generation all theway to.
You know, putting name isSavannah Gilbo and I'm here to
help you write a story thatworks.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
I want to prove to you that writing a novel doesn't
have to be overwhelming, soeach week, I'll bring you a
brand new episode with simple,actionable and step-by-step
strategies that you canimplement in your writing right
away.
So, whether you're brand new towriting or more of a seasoned
author looking to improve yourcraft, this podcast is for you.
So pick up a pen and let's getstarted.
In today's episode, I'm talkingwith Alice Sudlow, a
(00:53):
developmental editor and bookcoach who helps fiction writers
transform their rough draftsinto polished manuscripts.
Alice is an expert at helpingwriters craft powerful stories
by making every sceneunputdownable, and she's the
host of the your Next Draftpodcast.
If you've ever finished a firstdraft and then felt completely
overwhelmed about what to donext, or if you're stuck in what
(01:16):
Alice calls line-editingpurgatory, endlessly tweaking
sentences without actuallyimproving your story, then this
episode is for you.
Alice and I dive deep into whythe revision process feels so
overwhelming for most writersand, more importantly, she
shares her five-phase revisionframework that takes you from
(01:37):
messy first draft to amanuscript you can be proud of.
We talk about why you need tostep away from your words and
think big picture first, how tocreate different types of
outlines that actually help yousee what's working and what's
not, and why.
Separating the thinking fromthe execution is the key to
efficient, effective editing.
So, whether you're someone wholoves the editing process or
someone who absolutely dreads it, you're going to walk away from
(01:58):
this conversation with a clearroadmap for tackling your
revisions and maybe even someexcitement about diving back
into your draft as well.
So, without further ado, let'sdive right into my conversation
with Alice Sudlow.
Hi, alice, welcome to theFiction Writing Made Easy
podcast.
Hi, savannah, I'm so excited tobe here, I'm so excited to have
you and, for listeners whomight not know this, alice and I
(02:21):
got to know each other goshalmost 10 years ago, I think.
At this point, in a littleplace in Nashville, we were
training to be story grideditors together.
So we have a long history but,surprisingly, the first time
I've had her on the podcast,yeah, it's amazing.
Speaker 1 (02:35):
It feels like a long time coming.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
Yeah, long time coming, so I gave you a little
introduction already, but canyou tell my audience in your own
words who you are, what you doand things like that?
Little introduction already,but can you?
Speaker 1 (02:44):
tell my audience in your own words who you are, what
you do and things like that.
Absolutely so.
I am a developmental editor andbook coach and what I do is I
help writers who have already,you know, gotten about as far
along in their drafts in theirediting process as they can.
I help them turn those draftsthat they feel like have more
potential in them into reallyamazing stories.
(03:05):
So I come in.
I don't start at the verybeginning with writers.
I like to start in when thestory is already developed and
they have a really strong ideafor what they want the story to
be.
And then we get into thisrefining phase where we start
with the big picture, makingsure the story structure really
works, and then we go all theway down into the scene level
(03:29):
and that kind of late stagerefining to give it the last
polish so that they're ready toquery and pitch and or
self-publish.
I have writers who go both ways.
So I work with clientsone-on-one.
I have a course that I workwith people through scene
editing, scene revision, and Ihave a podcast called your Next
Draft.
That is all about the editingprocess, because I love editing.
Can't get enough of it.
Speaker 2 (03:45):
Yeah, and we will link to all that in the show
notes.
But I think what listeners aregoing to pick up on is that
you're very excited about thispart of the process and for most
people this is not an excitingtime.
So if it were me and I was awriter out there, I'd be like
wow, I can't believe someoneloves this as much as Alice does
.
Like I want to get that energyin my revisions.
So we will link to where youcan find Alice around the
(04:06):
internet in the show notes.
Speaker 1 (04:07):
My goal is to spread editing joy, like if there's one
fundamental thing I want to do.
I want to help everybody loveediting as much as I do.
It's so, so, so fun.
To me it's the best part of thewhole entire writing process,
from idea generation all the wayto you know, putting your book
(04:29):
in readers' hands.
Speaker 2 (04:29):
I'm like the editing process.
That's where it's at, that'swhere the good stuff happens.
And it's funny because Ipersonally agree with you it's
my favorite part of the process.
I love the time of making yourvision match what's on the page,
or vice versa.
So I think it's super fun.
But I know a lot of people arevery overwhelmed by it because
it does feel like aninsurmountable task.
I mean, sometimes you'reworking with over 100,000 words
and you're like what do I dowith this?
Speaker 1 (04:50):
And because no one really trains you how to turn a
first draft into a really greatstory.
There are a lot of resourcesout there that you can hunt down
, but I think it's reallyintuitive for people when they
have a story idea, even ifthey've never written anything
before, to sit down and go cool,I'm going to write a really
long document and then I'll havea book.
But after that the map is a lotless clear and so it kind of
(05:13):
feels like great.
Now I have a giant task aheadof me with no instructions, and
I don't know how to do this.
I don't know how to take thisfrom idea to a really polished
book, and I think that's part ofthe reason why people don't
love the process is just becauseit's very unclear coming into
it what you're actually tryingto do.
Speaker 2 (05:32):
Totally, and I think that's actually really
interesting, because you'reright that there are a lot of
resources on like how to craftcharacters, how to outline your
book, how to do X, Y, Z whenyou're trying to start, but then
, once you have that draft doneI mean, luckily we have your
podcast now and some other greatresources that have come out of
kind of this wave of coachesand editors coming on the scene
but before that it's almost likepeople needed to rely on
(05:54):
someone else to tell them how todo it or to do it for them
through like developmentalediting or whatever.
But now you know, people likeyou are making it easier to do
it ourselves ever.
Speaker 1 (06:04):
But now you know, people like you are making it
easier to do it ourselvesAbsolutely, and I've talked with
several writers who have saidthings like I had to invent this
process myself.
I had to, like, engineer anentire revision strategy and it
took me years to figure out theprocess that I would go through
to edit my book.
I had someone who reached outto me last week who said that
and she was like I love theprocess that you lay out because
(06:25):
it is the thing that I've hadto figure out myself over the
course of like five years andyou've just put it all out there
.
Speaker 2 (06:32):
Yeah, so no more reinventing the wheel.
Alice is going to give you herframework to use.
But I also think it'sinteresting Alice tell me if you
think this is true or falsethat we're going to talk about
using a lot of the same toolsthat we use for writing and
outlining a book, but it's justwe're kind of looking at them
and the manuscript through adifferent lens.
Would you agree or disagreewith that?
Speaker 1 (06:51):
Absolutely so.
A question that I hear a lotfrom writers who listen to my
podcast, which is all aboutediting, is can I use all of
this stuff in the first draftstage?
Can I use it to draft a story?
And the answer is yes because,honestly, a lot of the
fundamental principles andstrategies and everything that
I'm sharing on your next draftare the same kinds of things
(07:12):
that you're sharing here onFiction Writing Made Easy, that
you share in your course.
They're the same things thathelp you construct a story from
the ground up, because,ultimately, what we're doing is
creating the same, you know, endgoal.
We're trying to craft a goodstory which is going to have
cool characters and it's goingto have a great plot and it's
going to have different layersof meaning.
Like, all those things are thesame no matter what stage you're
(07:34):
starting at or what stageyou're using them.
But it's mostly a question ofhow do you like think about the
use of this tool at this stage?
What are you looking for?
What's of this tool at thisstage?
What are you looking for?
What's useful to apply at thisstage?
What helps you move forward atthis stage and what actually
gets you more stopped up,because you're thinking like
three steps ahead and trying tosolve a problem that's not the
(07:56):
problem of the moment.
I think that's probably thebiggest one in all of these
places.
When are you thinking threesteps ahead and you're like
trying to solve tomorrow'sproblem?
So they're all the sameprinciples Story hasn't changed
but it's a question of whatapplication of those principles
is going to be useful to you atany particular stage in your
process.
Speaker 2 (08:15):
Yeah, which I actually think is a little
encouraging, because it's notlike we're saying you have to
learn a whole new toolkit.
You're learning the same things, just applying them differently
.
So, alice, why don't you tellus, like imagine we're a writer
who's just finished this reallymessy first draft, what should
we do?
Like, where do we even startwith this?
Speaker 1 (08:33):
So the very first thing I recommend is to take a
break, because you need a littlebit of mental refreshment to
come back to your story withdifferent eyes.
We're switching hats here fromthe writer hat to the editor hat
and it's helpful to some degreeto even kind of forget what the
words are on the page.
Honestly, as a baselineprinciple for this entire
(08:56):
revision process that I use, thething I'm constantly
encouraging my writers to do isto forget the words on the page.
The words on the page are notthe point at this stage.
They were helpful so you couldget the idea down.
Now we want to zoom out andlook at things big picture.
So the first place I start istake a break.
Whether that's a day or a weekor three weeks or six weeks,
(09:17):
you're not aiming for like ayear here, but just enough of a
pause to give your mind a littlebit of a mental shift.
Speaker 2 (09:22):
And then, alice, if I could pause.
You people ask me all the time.
They say, ok, cool, I heard yougive a general timeline, but
what do you recommend?
What do you think I should do?
I'm curious, what's your answer?
And then I'll tell you myanswer.
It's a great question.
Speaker 1 (09:36):
So I personally would recommend probably I mean I say
two to six weeks.
That's broadly what I recommend.
I probably would say the sweetspot is around four weeks
because it's enough time for youto have a break without losing
momentum on the project.
That's the risk.
You don't want to lose momentum.
But I've also, you know, I readthe artful edit by Susan Bell
(09:59):
and she was like some peoplethey turn around, they have
processes to turn around andstart the revision the very next
day.
So for some people that breakjust ends up being too long and
they do lose momentum over thatperiod of time.
I would probably say four weeksIf I were pinned to the wall
and required to give a timeframe.
Speaker 2 (10:15):
Yeah, you are required today.
And it's funny because that'sthe exact same answer I would
give when people ask me.
They're like, just tell me whatto do and I'll do it.
And it's always like four weeks, just go four weeks.
And, like you said, there aredefinitely people who will want
to turn right around and do it.
So, if that's you, totally fine.
I have also worked with writerswho do that.
But you know, just know, thatwith longer breaks and shorter
breaks, there are pros and cons.
(10:36):
So, okay, so we've taken abreak.
Now what is our next?
Speaker 1 (10:40):
step.
So the next thing to do is tocome back to the manuscript and
read it with purpose, and thepurpose at this stage, in the
approach that I take, thepurpose at this stage is to make
an outline of what is on thepage.
So you're not reading themanuscript with the goal of
(11:00):
going in to make changesAbsolutely not.
That's the last thing Irecommend.
We're not trying to make anychanges to the manuscript right
now.
One more time for the people inthe back Alice, Do not make
changes to the manuscript atthis stage.
You're just going to be likeputting in energy in the least
efficient way.
You know things will bedifferent, but they won't be
holistically improving themanuscript on the whole.
(11:22):
Yeah, so we are not here tomake changes.
We're also not really here atthis stage to look for things to
change.
Those ideas are going to comeup, and so I recommend keeping a
list to the side where you'rewriting down all of the ideas
for things that are coming tomind as you're going through
this.
But you're not even necessarilygoing to look for those things.
(11:42):
All we're trying to do is to gointo the manuscript and create
an outline of what is there, andthere are a few different forms
that this outline can take.
It can be really really briefand short.
I've made outlines ofmanuscripts that are just
reminders for me of what eachscene basically is, where I just
write down like five words todescribe a scene.
But really at this stage, whatI think is most helpful is if
(12:05):
you challenge yourself tosummarize what is on the page
and capture both what ishappening, like what literally
the characters are doing, andalso why that matters to the
story, how it impacts the plotand how it impacts the
characters internally, and whatyou will do as you do that.
First off, you'll condense thestory down into a document.
(12:28):
That's way easier to manage.
You will no longer have to hold100,000 words in your head at a
time.
You will just have to hold5,000 words in your head, and
that's so much easier.
But also you're going to see ohwait, I can't figure out why
this scene matters.
There's no answer to that, andthat's going to be a really
illuminating thing that willjust start already sparking
(12:50):
ideas for noticing what'sworking really strong in the
story and where you've got someweak spots and, alice, can I
challenge you to tell listenerswhat that looks like for the
scene where Katniss volunteersas tribute?
Speaker 2 (13:04):
What would like describing the external and the
internal look like?
Speaker 1 (13:07):
That's a great question and I haven't read that
scene in a while, but I'm goingto imagine that I have.
So where I get plot thingswrong, we'll just I'll help fill
in the gaps.
Perfect, so I would.
In the shortest version it'sKatniss volunteers as tribute.
That's a really short, like keyhere.
But in the longer version Iwould probably write a paragraph
that ranges from about 50 wordsto 100 words, in which I would
(13:32):
say that Katniss goes to thereaping and she watches as
multiple people are selected andthat is stressful, but it's not
like directly harming her.
(13:54):
And then Prim is selected andshe realizes that if she doesn't
do anything then Prim is goingto die Like there's just no way
around that.
Then Prim is going to die Likethere's just no way around that,
and so she raises her hand andvolunteers for the reaping,
which puts her in the crosshairsto potentially die in this
story, but it will save Prim.
And then she is selected.
(14:16):
So now, at the end of that,katniss has been selected for
the Hunger Games, she is joiningthe Hunger Games and she has
saved Prim.
So that is rough and dirty, butit's got in there, what's
literally happening and how it'simpacting Katniss, and you can
break that out in different ways.
You can like describe theaction first and then say this
is how it impacts her, or youcan weave them in together, but
we've got both of those piecesthere.
Speaker 2 (14:38):
Right.
Great job on the fly there,Alice.
Thank you you got it all.
Speaker 1 (14:41):
Did I get the plot right?
You got it all right.
Yep, you're good.
Speaker 2 (14:46):
Okay, so we're creating this outline and we're
jotting down what happens in thescenes, why it matters to the
characters and, like you said,there are going to be places
where you know both parts arebroken.
One of the parts are broken,right.
So maybe we I see this happenwhere writers are like
describing a scene where it'slike these two sit down for
coffee and they're like I'm sobored with this summary and it's
(15:06):
like, yeah, that's probablywhat's happening to readers when
they read this page, right?
So we're just kind of, like yousaid, framing the story in a
shorter, more concise way.
And then what do we do?
Speaker 1 (15:17):
with it.
So the next thing is, I'massuming at this point, as you
have gone through that story andnoticed, oh, the scene with the
characters getting coffee isreally boring.
You've probably made note ofthat in your list of notes about
your story.
Now, what I recommend is to godown to base principles.
So when I'm working with awriter, I read this outline and
(15:40):
then we set it aside for a whileand we use it as reference when
we need to remember, okay, whatdid Katniss do in that scene?
But we don't actually even makeany changes to that outline at
this stage.
We go back down to baseprinciples and I recommend that
you ask yourself reallyfundamental questions.
So that would be, in fact, letme pull up my guide here that
(16:03):
I'm building out with the listof questions that I ask.
That would be why are youwriting this story at all?
Like, let's just start there.
What's the purpose of thisstory?
Like, let's just start there.
What's the purpose of this story?
What is the point of this story?
So what is kind of the meaningthat this story is carrying
underneath it?
Every story does have a point.
(16:25):
So we're not trying to be superdidactic here.
We're just trying toacknowledge what movement is
happening in this story, right?
What is your character's goal?
What are they trying toaccomplish in this story?
What are the stakes of thestory?
Do we have life or death stakes?
Do we have success or failurestakes?
What are the stakes in thisstory?
What's the character's arc ofchange?
This is kind of related to thestakes, but it's the stakes on
(16:47):
the inside of the character.
How are they going to bedifferent at the end of the
story than the beginning of thestory?
And what is the genre of thestory?
And I ask that one last at theend of that list, because all of
those other questions are goingto give you clues to the genre
and so the genre is kind of likedoubling down on.
Ok, now that we see all ofthese things, they point us here
.
I know that you, or I thinkthat you, encourage your writers
(17:09):
to go into their first draftprocess with some awareness of
what their genre is.
So some of these questionsagain, because we're using the
same tools at the same atdifferent stages, some of these
questions are going to be easierto answer because you've
already answered them, butsometimes those answers change,
you know, over the course ofyour drafting process.
Sometimes they shift, Sometimesyou discover new layers to them.
So now we're going back tothese questions and doubling
(17:30):
down, and then the last one inthat stage is what is the
story's point of view, which isI ask it at this stage.
I kind of hold it to the end,because that's really about how
we're presenting the informationto the reader.
All those other ones, though,they're about what information
are we trying to present.
So that's what I do at thisstage, is we ask a ton of
fundamental questions about whatthe story is.
Speaker 2 (17:50):
I love that and that's what I do too, and I'm
working with writers and I feellike sometimes there's this
instinct to want to skip it,because you're like I did this
already or, of course, I'mwriting a fantasy, there's magic
, you know, or whatever.
What would you say to thosepeople who are inclined to skip
this step?
Speaker 1 (18:06):
I would say, first off, I get it because it feels
like you've done this alreadyand it feels like the work is to
go into the manuscript andstart making things better.
But the reality is this is theheart of revision, this is the
heart of the editing process.
This is where the magic happensand your story will.
(18:32):
I honestly feel like I kind ofhave to like it's like a lobster
boiling in a pot situation,like convincing my writers in my
story clarity process that, yes, this is worth doing.
It's like around call two orcall three of a four call
engagement that they're like ohman, I get it, I see it.
I hadn't seen all of this herebefore, so we kind of have to
(18:54):
ease our way in.
But this is the heart ofrevision and you will discover
if you take this part of theprocess really seriously, if you
do it really intentionally, ifyou allow yourself the time to
have the deep thoughts in thisspace, you will find the keys,
the hidden keys that are likewoven in underneath everything
(19:16):
else that you've written.
You'll find the hidden keysthat make your story far more
rich, far more engaging, farmore exciting and that make the
actual making the changes to themanuscripts part way easier.
Like this is where we figureout how to make those changes.
This is absolutely worth it.
Speaker 2 (19:33):
And I think you know people, they tend to want to
skip it a because they'vealready they feel like they've
already done it.
But, like you said, thingschange.
I think we should almost alwayscount on things changing
between our plans and what wewrite.
But also, like you said, itmakes it so much easier once we
get into the actual editing onthe page and people tend to skip
it because they want to get tothat part sooner, but then they
(19:55):
end up spending like months andyears on the page.
You know that part of theprocess when it's like you could
have spent months there insteadof years if you spent time here
answering these fundamentalquestions and just kind of
getting that baseline of whatyour story is about, now that
you've seen it to the end.
So take it from two editors andbook coaches If you're inclined
(20:16):
to skip it, please don't.
Speaker 1 (20:19):
Absolutely.
I mean, the way I think of itis we're separating the thinking
stage and the execution stage.
The thinking stage is going tohappen Like you have to think
about how you're going to shapethe story.
At some point you have to dothe thinking.
But if you can separate it fromthe execution, you can focus on
just one side at a time.
(20:40):
You don't have to worry aboutwhat are the words on the page,
in the scenes, in the chapters,how is this actually working?
Which lines do we use?
When people go into their pages,it's really easy to get sucked
into line editing and the lineediting will keep you surface
level.
It will keep you away from thedeep thoughts about the story.
So if we separate the thinkingand the execution, then you can
(21:02):
put all your energy into justthe thinking, the planning, the
understanding, the vision forthe story first, and then when
you go into execution, it'sgoing to be so easy and so fast.
I mean not easy easy, you knowbut it'll be so much easier.
You'll roll through it becauseyou know exactly what changes to
make and how to make them andwhy they matter and you're just
going to see the story come tolife.
Speaker 2 (21:19):
Right, I totally agree.
Okay, so let's pretend we'vedone that.
We've answered thosefundamental questions that you
just went through.
What do we do next?
Speaker 1 (21:28):
So the next thing is I'll qualify this a little bit
I'll say we've answered thosequestions no-transcript, a
(22:08):
background where we were trainedto observe, observe information
about a story, and then we kindof had to figure out on our own
how do we apply the informationthat we observe.
But basically, once you havethat information that you have
observed, it is a matter ofapplying that to the story
itself.
And the way that I do that is Ipull out the outline again.
Actually, no, I'm jumping ahead.
(22:30):
I don't even pull out theoutline at this point, savannah,
I stay away from the outlinefor as long as possible.
What I do next is I actuallybuild up a teeny, tiny little
outline of the five commandmentsof the global story.
I'm like can we tell this storyin its tiniest little form?
We are building an outline here, but we're going to start
really, really, really small sothat we can see that our arc of
change is working from the veryfirst page to the very last page
(22:51):
in our tightest possible way,tightest possible way.
And even if you did that beforeyou wrote your first draft, I
recommend that you do thisthinking again fresh and put
your story through its pacesagain fresh, so that you can see
.
Okay, now, based on what I'vegot, does this work?
Does that story hold together?
What new ideas do I see when Itry to think through that again?
(23:13):
So that's where I go next.
Take all of those things thatwe established about the
fundamentals of the story andthen build them out into a teeny
tiny little.
Speaker 2 (23:20):
I call it a little six point outline of the heart
of the story arc there and canyou run us through that really
quick, what those commandmentsor those six points are?
Speaker 1 (23:29):
Absolutely so.
The inciting incidents is thefirst one.
It's going to kick the storyoff.
It's what starts the wholeconflict.
I don't list out everyprogressive complication in the
entire book because there aregoing to be so, so many of them,
but you do tend to notice, or Itend to notice, like two or
three major plot points thatreally move the story along.
Sometimes I'll even separateout the midpoint to be a
(23:51):
separate like bullet in thislittle outline, so it ends up
being more like seven points.
But that's one of theprogressive complications, a
really big one that pushes thestory forward in a major way.
And then there's the turningpoint, which is the place that
most greatly challenges theprotagonist on this arc of
change that leads them to acrisis, which is the big
(24:12):
question of the story.
What are they going to do?
Are they going to choose kindof the old way that they have
been solving problems, or arethey going to choose a new way
of solving problems?
Then there's the climax of thestory, the big event.
Honestly, sometimes I startthere when I'm building out this
little outline because a lot oftimes it's like the easiest
thing to spot in the story.
That's the big event, that'sthe climax.
(24:33):
That's where we're going.
And then there's the resolution, which is the new world order.
It is how does the world lookafter we've gone through this
arc of change?
What's different now?
So you know, at the beginningour two protag—our love
interests were not together.
At the end they are together.
So we've got our arc of changemapped out there and when we can
see that, you can see thatyou've got a story that really
(24:56):
does work on the highest biggestlevel.
Speaker 2 (25:03):
Yeah, and something I find when writers do exercises
like this is they'll usuallylook at it and be like, well,
that seems so basic, it seems soboring and it's kind of like it
is supposed to be that way toan extent, because if it's a
love story, what else are youwriting about?
You're writing about two peoplecoming together.
That's going to look the samefor every love story, but then
you flavor it and color in thelines with, like your own unique
story.
So I think if listeners, I'mjust kind of I'm feeling out in
(25:26):
the future what people are goingto be worried about, they're
worried about it seeming boringor like this sounds like every
other story.
I think that's a good sign.
Speaker 1 (25:37):
What do you say, alice?
I think so too.
I think that, on the one hand,archetypes are archetypes
because they work, becausethey're patterns that exist
throughout humanity.
And so if you discover, inbuilding out that little tiny
outline that you're establishing, you're kind of, you know,
falling into an archetype,that's great.
That's a tested framework thatworks, that makes for an
excellent story.
And also, exactly what you'resaying, you're going to color in
(26:02):
the lines, you're going to makeit your own, uniquely different
, with your setting, with yourcharacters, with all of the
details that you add in.
I think, particularly for me atthis stage, the thing that feels
to me like it's most unique andowned by the writer is the, the
crisis question.
What are the stakes that thatspecific protagonist is facing
in that specific question?
(26:24):
There's nuance, there's flavorthere, and what's the solution
that the writer sees to thatquestion?
That tends to be drawn from atleast the way that I approach
this I look for how can we drawthat out of the writer's own
personal experience.
So when I'm coaching a writerthrough all of those initial
questions about you know thepoints and the genres and
(26:47):
everything I'm going deep.
I'm like let's get some journalprompts about when you went
through this really bigexperience in your life and what
we find there is these layersof highly specific nuance that
then shape that crisis question.
So even if this is, you know,girl meets boy, boy gets girl at
the end, great, but that crisisthat is hyper specific to the
(27:08):
writer and it's based on whattheir experiences are, that
they're drawing from their ownlife to say cool, we've got this
big archetype that makes for agreat story.
But this is how it's personaland unique to me.
Speaker 2 (27:19):
Yeah, I think that's so true too.
And that ties back to theme,which is usually also more
specific.
Yes, it's about true lovewinning, or whatever.
But it's like how does truelove win, how do we get the boy
and girl together, or whatever?
So I think that is.
I totally agree.
Okay.
So now that we've done all that, let's pretend we're following
along with this process.
We've created our outline,We've created our five, six,
(27:42):
seven point little mini outline.
What's next?
Speaker 1 (27:46):
So then I take that little mini outline and I start
expanding it and I really lovethe five commandment framework.
I love it because it's fractal,so it works at every level of
story.
If you can figure out how touse it on one level of story,
congratulations, you've got akey to the entire thing.
So if we can use it on thatglobal story level for the
(28:09):
entire story from start tofinish, then we can use it again
for each of the acts.
So I look at the story in termsof four acts and you've got
your beginning, the very firstquarter of your story, and then
I split the middle into two actsthat are each 25%, and then
we've got the end, the very end,the last 25% and each one of
(28:30):
those.
I look for the fivecommandments for each of those
acts, and so then what happensis basically I pull up a
document and I list all of thosepoints out, with just blanks
beside them, so that I'm tryingto fill them out and I fill in
what I know.
And from that six point outlinenow we know the inciting
incident of the story, which isusually going to be.
(28:52):
I tend to find you can correctme on this Savannah if you find
it differently.
I'm still kind of experimentingwith this, to be honest, but I
tend to find you can correct meon this Savannah if you find it
differently.
I'm still kind of experimentingwith this, to be honest, but I
tend to find that that incitingincident either falls as the
inciting incident of the firstact or as the turning point of
the first act, Like it'ssomewhere in there.
It can flow around a little bit, but it's one of those major
points.
We know that the climax of ourlittle six point outline is
going to be the climax of ourfourth act.
(29:13):
So we've got some points thatwe can fill in, just based on
our little six point outline,and usually, usually, the
turning point of that six pointoutline is probably going to be
the turning point of act three.
That's the space where we'rehitting that crisis point for
the character.
Speaker 2 (29:31):
So just to clarify that's the second part of the
middle.
Speaker 1 (29:33):
When you say act three yes, so some people call
it middle build two, some peoplecall it like act two, part two.
I like the shorthand of fouracts one, two, three, four.
But it confuses people becausethere are so many ways in which
people number their acts.
So, yes, it's like around that65 to 70% mark in the story.
So I map out, you know, whatwe've got from our six point
(30:02):
outline into the full act by actoutline, and then we start
filling in the blanks and say,ok, what's the arc that's
happening within each of theseacts?
And if we had for the story as awhole, the stakes are, you know
, life or death, or the stakesare love or hate, then I'm
looking at for each of theseacts, what is, what's our
starting state and our endingstate on that point.
And we're mapping what's thatarc, what's the goal for the
character within this act, whatare they pursuing and how is
that challenged throughout thisact?
(30:23):
And we use the same globaltools, we use them on the act
level to map out what are theselittle arcs of change all the
way through.
Speaker 2 (30:30):
And what would you say to someone who's listening
and they're like I just hateoutlining, I hate structure.
This makes me feel like I justwant to like light everything on
fire.
Speaker 1 (30:39):
What would you say to those people?
I mean, I recently talked withauthor AS King, who's a
brilliant surrealist author ofYA novels and also novels for
(31:02):
middle grade and adults.
She's brilliant and she usesthe surrealist writing method,
which is just to sit down andwrite whatever comes to mind as
fast as possible, withoutquestioning it.
So it's very pantser heavy andthen when she goes into revise
she just like combs her waythrough, starts on page one and
combs her way down and shewrites brilliant novels that way
.
She's not approaching them fromlike let's map out every point
(31:26):
of our story structure, but shewrites brilliant novels.
But I will say also so there'sno like one right way to write
or to edit a novel.
But I will say, even if youstarted off pantsing your way
through the first draft, therevision process is the point
where story structure reallystarts coming into play, because
(31:49):
the goal of this whole revisionprocess I mean we're talking
specifically second drafts here,but we're also talking, I would
say, any story that hasn't yetgone through this fundamental
structuring of the story.
I've seen, you know, 10thdrafts that someone has worked
on for 10 years and the storyhasn't had this structure built
(32:11):
in.
They've got lots of beautifullanguage, but they've never put
the structure together.
At some point you've got tohave a story with structure to
it, otherwise you end up with anarrative that just rambles out
into the weeds, that doesn'thave an arc of change, that your
reader can't make heads ortails of.
And they go well.
I read a lot of words.
(32:31):
I don't know what those wordswere doing, but I read them.
So at some point your storyneeds structure and this process
.
You don't have to be asstructured as this in your
process.
You can also outsource this.
You can come work with me, youcan come work with another
editor who will do this kind ofanalytical thinking, really like
on the back end, while yourexperience is, I'm asking you a
(32:54):
ton of questions where I'msaying cool, what do you believe
about you know?
Love, about life, aboutfriendship, about anything.
And then, like I've had writerswho sit there going I don't
even know like how you did this.
It doesn't feel like we'reworking, we're just having a
conversation and suddenly Ifigured out the whole end of my
quartet here.
And you can feel like that onthe writer's side if you bring
(33:15):
in an editor who can do thisstrategy on the back end for you
and then kind of present to youwell, this is the structure
you've laid out.
Does that sound like what youwant to do?
But the structuring of thestory has to happen at some
point in order to create a storythat is going to engage your
readers.
So if you want to fast trackthat process a little bit, you
(33:38):
can use these structural toolsto give you some handholds in
that.
Otherwise, you can move throughit via intuition, and it's not
that that doesn't work.
It's just probably going totake you a while to end up at a
story that really, really clicks.
Speaker 2 (33:51):
And I think that piece about outsourcing is
really important, because a lotof people who are like the more
creative I don't want tostructure my story they're going
to maybe feel a littlehandcuffed by any kind of
structure and, like you said,that's my experience too,
working with writers at thisstage, where it's we just ask a
bunch of questions and then,like, let your editor kind of
(34:11):
carry that burden for you andyou get to still be that
creative brain.
So you know that is an option.
I think sometimes people forgetthat that's an option, so I
just want to remind everybody.
I think sometimes people forgetthat that's an option, so I
just want to remind everybody.
Okay, so, alice, what is upnext after that?
Speaker 1 (34:26):
So we've got our little six point outline and
we've got our act by act outline.
At this point I expand thatinto a scene by scene outline.
So my goal now is we've donethe hardest part of the work.
I'm just going to plant a flagthere and say we've done the
(34:47):
hardest part of the work.
We've figured out what thestory is, we figured out how
that story arc takes place andwe've figured out what each act
of the story is doing so we cansee the momentum all the way
through the story.
The hardest part is done.
So now we're trying to takethat outline and expand it into
a map.
That will make the actualrevision process on the page of
the manuscript as easy aspossible.
So what I do now is I expandthat act by act outline into a
(35:09):
scene by scene outline and atthis point we can come back to
that original scene outline thatyou created when you were first
finishing the draft and we canstart making changes directly
there.
Like we can start pulling out.
Okay, just move scenes around oradd a new scene here or cut the
scene.
It can be like you've got thismodular document where you're
(35:32):
moving your puzzle pieces aroundto fit your map, the larger
kind of vision you've created.
Or, you know, sometimes we moveit directly on that original
outline.
You know I love versioningcreate a new copy, so you've
always got the old version, butyou can move it directly on that
outline.
Or you can create a newdocument or just take that act
by act outline and startexpanding it into scenes and
(35:52):
referencing the old material.
So you know, you know you havethese things on the page.
You'll pull those into your newdocument as you like.
But basically our goal here isto create an outline that lists
out every scene so that when wego to the manuscript we know
what scenes are going to bethere and we know really easily
what material to cut.
And at this stage I like towrite down, you know, whatever
(36:13):
information you know about thosescenes.
So if you want to keep the samekind of format from that
original scene list where we'redescribing the external action
and also the internal world forthe character in the span of
about 100 words, like that'sgreat.
If you're like, hey, I don'twant to be restricted on this
one anymore, I want to, like putall the detail in so I really
understand what's happening inthe scene, I can see things in
(36:35):
my mind.
I've got ideas of particulardetails that need to go on the
page.
Great, get that down on theoutline and hold that there as
your kind of like guide so thatwhen you get to the manuscript
it's all there and all you'vegot to do is execute.
So that's our step.
There is turn that act by actoutline into the scene by scene
outline.
Speaker 2 (36:54):
Awesome.
And just for anyone listening,imagine having not done all that
big picture work and kind ofsaying what is my North Star,
where do I want this draft to go?
And sitting down and looking at100,000 words on paper, that's
really overwhelming.
No wonder so many people don'tlike the editing process, right?
Yes, I think all the stuffAlice covered already is super
important and like yes, it willtake time, it should take time.
(37:17):
It's valuable thinking thatyou're doing and then, once you
get to this stage, take time.
Speaker 1 (37:22):
It's valuable thinking that you're doing and
then, once you get to, thisstage you're kind of just
hitting the ground running,which is great, exactly.
You go back into thatmanuscript and you know I'm not
going to downplay the amount ofwork that this takes or ever say
that this process gets easy.
I don't think that that's everquite the right word to use for
this but it's so much easier.
It's so much more directed andtargeted.
You'll open up that manuscriptand you'll be like I already
(37:42):
know that pages 25 to 32, theyjust need to go.
I can just cut them right out.
It'll take me two minutes to dothat.
I already know that I need towrite this scene over here
halfway through the story andit's so clearly pictured in my
mind because I've spent all ofthis time thinking about how the
story arc goes together andwhat that scene does for the
story and why it's so important,that now it's just like already
(38:03):
in there.
All I have to do is transcribethe idea that's already been
built up.
So when you get to the actualchanging the words on the page
stage, it becomes so muchclearer what changes you
actually make and you get out ofline editing purgatory, which
is what I think about it.
When writers just open up theirdrafts.
(38:23):
This is like the bad way.
Not the bad way.
This is the inefficient way todo a structural edit of your
manuscript.
Open up the draft, start at thetop on page one and just start
working your way through.
You'll probably end up with 18versions of chapter one because
you're just never satisfied withit, and the final chapter is
going to languish at the endgathering dust.
(38:44):
You'll never touch it and inthe middle you'll just have all
these beautifully polishedsentences, but you'll be like
the story still has plot holesand none of these sentences have
fixed the plot holes.
This is how you fix the plotholes.
Speaker 2 (38:54):
Yeah, and I'm sure we could create a list over a
hundred people of we've seen dothat just between us two as
editors.
Like people get stuck there andit it makes sense why it's the
first thing we go to, because wewrote these words, we want to
fix them, but you just get solost in the weeds that it's
super inefficient, not veryhelpful for you, and then you
end up with something thatdoesn't work.
Speaker 1 (39:16):
And because, again, no one was it was an intuitive
process to write the first draft, and so the only map that we
have after we've written thefirst draft if we've never gone
through the process of revisinga book before is to say, hey
well, I started on page one thefirst time, I'll just do that
again Start on page one and workmy way through.
And the revision process isjust a different beast.
(39:36):
Editing a book is a differentbeast from writing a book and it
needs a different process tosupport it.
So that's really it's like thekey here the tools that we use,
the questions that we're askingthey're the same questions at
any stage, but the process inwhich we use them is very, very
different.
Speaker 2 (39:49):
The revision process is not like the editing process
or the writing process, yeah,and it requires more of a
logical, analytical brain, atleast when you're kind of going
through those bigger questionsand then.
So it's kind of like you wrotethe book, you were in that
creative side, even if yououtlined, you're in that
creative side of your brain,then you pause and you go on
that logical side.
Then you can flip back becauseyou have your plan.
(40:10):
So it's like we all want to.
I think a lot of us want to getback to that creative side and
that creative process and it'slike this process and these
tools will help you get therequicker and also make it more
fun.
Speaker 1 (40:22):
Yes, and I think two things.
First, you're both the puzzlemaker and the puzzle solver.
I didn't make that up, Somebodyelse said it recently.
I forget who it was.
I wish I could credit them.
But you're the one who createdthe puzzle of the story and
you're also the person who getsto solve the puzzle of the story
.
And the creation of the puzzlewas when you wrote the first
draft and now we're in puzzlesolver mode, which is a
(40:46):
different hat to wear when we'retrying to put the pieces
together.
But also, I think that there'sso much creation hidden within
the revision steps of even thatearly big picture thinking.
Because when we're askingquestions like why does
friendship matter to you, that'screation kind of space.
And when you can outsource theanalytical pieces largely to an
(41:07):
editor, you get more freedom tostay in that creative space.
Because I'll ask you what doesfriendship mean to you?
You'll be in the creative spaceto think about that and then
I'll come back and say, great,here's what that means for your
story structurally andanalytically.
And then you can say like yayor nay, like that works or
doesn't work, but like I've donea lot of the analytical side of
(41:29):
it for you so you can stay in alittle bit more of the creative
space.
Speaker 2 (41:32):
Plus, I think sometimes too, we discount, like
we think that editing doesn'tequal creativity at all, and I
think you have to be supercreative to solve problems.
Like you know, you can't alwayslogic your way out of
everything.
So I don't know in my world.
I'm always like, how do we finda balance between the two?
Some people say like I alwayswant to be creative or I always
want to be logical, and I don'tthink that's always going to
(41:53):
work personally.
But I think this process is agreat way to just kind of
separate, like you said, thosebrains and then also make the
whole thing easier and moreefficient.
So, alice, I have a questionfor you, kind of on the back end
of that.
Well, I have two questions.
One is, let's say, so thisprocess carries you through that
second draft, right?
Yes, okay, and so then, intheory, you can kind of just
(42:16):
repeat if you want, right, youcan repeat the entire process
again, or what do you recommend,people?
Speaker 1 (42:21):
do so.
I just on principle here.
What I recommend is just aconstant back and forth between
draft to outline, manuscripts tooutline, manuscripts to outline
, and creating a new outlinethat matches the existing draft
every time, because you'll againyou'll see new things.
The first thing that I invitenew clients to do when they come
(42:43):
to work with me is to createthat outline, because I want
them to send it to me, and everysingle time they email me and
say I discovered so much when Iwas making this outline, like I
have so many ideas for my storynow and what I want to change.
So even just that act, even ifthat is the only thing that you
take from this entire processand you're like the rest of this
(43:07):
is trash, even if that's allyou take, that process of going
from manuscripts to outline tomanuscript is going to
illuminate so many things aboutyour story, every single draft
that you do it.
I do think that.
I mean I think that going downto the base principles every
single time is really helpful.
I've had clients who love theanalytical side of things and
they've done this analyticalwork themselves like three times
over and then they've workedwith another editor.
(43:29):
Sometimes they've gone to workwith you, savannah, and you've
done that analytical work withthem and they've done another
draft.
And then they come to me andI'm like, great, I can see, I
can so clearly see the fruits ofall of that labor.
And first thing I'm going to dois go back to those base
principles again and build upthe story for myself and we're
going to just vet at every stepand what we'll see is that more
(43:51):
and more things become solid andeasier to answer more quickly
every time.
You do that, which will open upthe next layer of discovery.
To say okay, like, for instance, just thinking about a.
The next layer of discovery.
To say okay, like, for instance, just thinking about a writer
that I've worked with recently.
They had worked with you,savannah, and when they came to
me they knew all of these thingsabout their story and I brought
us back to base principles andsome of the questions.
(44:12):
I was like I'm going to be justrepeating things you already
know.
So, just like, tell me whatthey are, because you know them.
And what we discovered was thenext layer that was needed in
the story was the character'sarc of change was already set up
(44:43):
because of all of the work thatthis writer had done in all of
those previous edits.
And when we did that work again, you know, for probably like
the fifth time, we found thatnext layer to say this is what's
going to really create emphasisand catharsis for the reader
here.
So every time it's worth doingAt some point.
You know we can't be doing thisfor 40 drafts, like there's no
(45:07):
need for that.
We do have to stop eventually.
And I would say that some of theart and the challenge, the
difficulty of revision, isknowing when to stop, knowing
when we've done enough.
So when you start finding thediminishing returns on that,
when you do that process again,when you do that process with
feedback, when you're talkingout your ideas with beta readers
(45:28):
or with critique partners orwith an editor, and you just
feel like it's so solid, it's sothere, everything's clicking,
everything's aligning.
There's nothing new that'scoming up from these
conversations.
You're hitting diminishingreturns and it's probably time
to really like zoom in on thedetails of the scenes, make sure
they're hitting every levelthat you want them to and then
call it done and ship it off andsay you finished.
(45:49):
But this is the process that Iwould use for all of those big
picture revisions.
You can do it one time or threetimes or five times, and do it
10 times and you'll find newthings, but you'll probably
start hitting diminishingreturns and diminishing energy
on the project.
Speaker 2 (46:05):
Yeah, and I think what you said is.
So it goes back to kind of whatyou said in the beginning about
editing is really when revisingis where that magic happens,
because, like you said, someonecame to you with a story that
worked and let's just go on thisexample we were using of a
romance earlier.
You could have, let's say, fivedifferent romance novels where
the character is learning abouthow to trust another person and
(46:25):
they have to trust the loveinterest in order to get there,
happily ever after.
It's through these multipleiterations of these questions,
these core questions that youfind well, what is my version of
learning truth, or what doestruth look like to me versus to
Alice, to another writer?
And so it's like you can writea really good first draft, but
(46:46):
then doing this deeper workequals the magic that we all
want coming out of our books andthat, those goosebumps that
readers feel and those glowingreviews and things like that.
So it is well worth theexercise and the multiple rounds
if that is your goal, to writea book like that.
Speaker 1 (47:03):
It's so fun.
I mean to see thetransformation from cool this is
a good idea with potential andit's fun.
You've got a lot of great setpieces here.
That's one of the things that Isay a lot.
You have a lot of great setpieces.
You have a lot of great momentsand action sequences or
whatever our external genre is.
So you know, like our lover'sfirst kiss moment, that's a cool
little plot element that you'vegot over here.
(47:24):
We're going to create so muchmeaning behind that.
We're going to make all thathang together so tightly.
We're going to make it feel soexciting to the reader.
It's going to go from that's alot of cool ideas that are all
together in a really longdocument to this is a brilliant
story that your readers can'tput down.
And I love seeing thattransformation.
(47:45):
And like I laugh because I'vegot, I think, three stories on
my desk right now that are allfriendship stories and so, like
the fundamental questions of whyis friendship important and how
do we keep and maintain andrepair and create new
friendships, like all of thosequestions, those are the same
kind of questions that I'masking multiple writers right
(48:05):
now, but the stories are sodifferent because every writer
is coming to that with a uniquetake on the friendships they've
experienced in their lives, thereasons why friendships are
important to them, the thingsthey want to say to a different
set of readers, whether thosereaders are, you know, 10 years
old or 40 years old, whetherthey're readers who love fantasy
(48:26):
worlds or they're readers whoare really struggling with
something in their work lives.
Like they're all stories aboutfriendship, but there's a
uniqueness from every singlewriter that makes every one of
those so fun to explore on theirown terms.
Speaker 2 (48:41):
And I think this is what people mean when they say
write what you know.
Yes, it could be true thatmaybe you were a nurse in a past
life and so you're writing amedical thriller or whatever.
That is one layer of it, butit's also like what is your
personal experience that makesyour story more you and more
unique.
Speaker 1 (48:58):
Yes, absolutely.
What human truths can you findwithin yourself, within your own
life, within your ownexperience, that you want to
share with the world?
I think that, fundamentally,stories are how humans
communicate.
It's how we share ourexperiences with other people,
(49:18):
how we share ideas with otherpeople.
I will be honest, I'm reallybad at reading nonfiction books.
Like the number of nonfictionbooks that I have not finished
is like shameful.
It's terrible.
You give me the ideas that arein a nonfiction book but you put
them in a story and I will eatit up.
Like that's how we engage withthe minds, the thought process,
(49:41):
the experiences of other humanbeings.
And so you know, whether yourbook is set now like just down
the street from your house or onanother planet, with dragons or
anything like, what you know isstill the heart of it your own
experiences, your own ideasabout the world.
And that's the work in thatrevision step that people want
to skip that early stage,figuring out what that is.
(50:04):
It's not just like what are thelogistics of?
How do I don't know dragons get, you know, materials for
saddles in our planet, in adifferent galaxy?
That's not the heart of thestory here.
The heart of the story is whatof you is going into this story?
And that's what I love touncover with writers.
Speaker 2 (50:23):
I love what you just said, too, about like the thing
that you don't want to do.
That's probably what you needto do to make the magic happen.
So if there's anyone listeningwho's avoiding a part of the
writing or editing process, it'sprobably because you need to
dig into it and do the work, andthat will be the magic that
comes out of it.
So, alice, I think we can justwrap up there.
(50:47):
I think that was amazing, and Iknow that you have a guide for
listeners.
Speaker 1 (50:49):
Do you want to tell them about that really quick?
Absolutely, so it is a guide toall of the things that I have
been talking about here.
I am currently, as we recordthis podcast, putting the
finishing touches on it, so I'mprobably going to change the
title, but right now the workingtitle is the Five-Phase Novel
Revision Process, even if you'veedited your manuscript a dozen
times already.
And the reason why I call it afive-phase revision process is
(51:12):
because it goes through all ofthese buckets of steps that
Savannah and I have been talkingabout here.
But I break down the stepswithin them because you know
figuring out what your point is,figuring out what your genre is
, figuring out what your pointof view is those are all very
different steps, so it's all onephase, but I list out a lot of
those questions that I ask here.
So it is a guide for if you arefeeling like you're stuck in
(51:37):
line, editing purgatory, if youare feeling like you made it
through to the end of your firstdraft but nobody taught you
what to do once you finish thatand how to turn that into a
great story, this guide is yourmap for that whole entire
process.
I wish that I could promise itwould make it easy.
It won't make it easy becausethere are still a lot of places
where you're going to have toask really big, challenging
(52:00):
questions that are probablygoing to be hard to answer and
hard to figure out how to applyto your story.
But it is going to make it muchmore clear how to walk through
that whole path from start tofinish.
Speaker 2 (52:10):
Yes, so we will put the link to that and to Alice's
website and her podcast and allthe things in the show notes.
But, alice, thank you so muchfor coming on the show.
Thank you so much for having meSavannah.
Speaker 1 (52:20):
This is so fun.
I love sharing these ideas.
This revision process we'vebeen talking about is the things
that I think that every writershould know, and yet nobody
knows them.
So I'm really glad to get toshare them here and glad to get
to join you on Fiction WritingMade Easy.
So thank you.
Speaker 2 (52:38):
All right, so that's it for this episode of the
Fiction Writing Made Easypodcast.
So thank you, stage.
Whether you're just startingout, stuck somewhere in the
(52:59):
middle of a draft, drowning inrevisions or getting ready to
publish, take my free 30-secondquiz at savannahgilbocom forward
slash quiz.
You'll get a customized podcastplaylist that'll meet you right
where you're at and help youget to your next big milestone.
Last but not least, make sureto follow this podcast in your
podcast player of choice,because I'll be back next week
with another episode full ofactionable tips, tools and
(53:22):
strategies to help you become abetter writer.
Until then, happy writing.
If there's one fundamental thing I want to do,
I want to help.
Everybody love editing as muchas I do.
It's so, so, so fun.
To me, it's the best part ofthe whole entire writing process
, from idea generation all theway to.
You know, putting name isSavannah Gilbo and I'm here to
help you write a story thatworks.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
I want to prove to you that writing a novel doesn't
have to be overwhelming, soeach week, I'll bring you a
brand new episode with simple,actionable and step-by-step
strategies that you canimplement in your writing right
away.
So, whether you're brand new towriting or more of a seasoned
author looking to improve yourcraft, this podcast is for you.
So pick up a pen and let's getstarted.
In today's episode, I'm talkingwith Alice Sudlow, a
(00:53):
developmental editor and bookcoach who helps fiction writers
transform their rough draftsinto polished manuscripts.
Alice is an expert at helpingwriters craft powerful stories
by making every sceneunputdownable, and she's the
host of the your Next Draftpodcast.
If you've ever finished a firstdraft and then felt completely
overwhelmed about what to donext, or if you're stuck in what
(01:16):
Alice calls line-editingpurgatory, endlessly tweaking
sentences without actuallyimproving your story, then this
episode is for you.
Alice and I dive deep into whythe revision process feels so
overwhelming for most writersand, more importantly, she
shares her five-phase revisionframework that takes you from
(01:37):
messy first draft to amanuscript you can be proud of.
We talk about why you need tostep away from your words and
think big picture first, how tocreate different types of
outlines that actually help yousee what's working and what's
not, and why.
Separating the thinking fromthe execution is the key to
efficient, effective editing.
So, whether you're someone wholoves the editing process or
someone who absolutely dreads it, you're going to walk away from
(01:58):
this conversation with a clearroadmap for tackling your
revisions and maybe even someexcitement about diving back
into your draft as well.
So, without further ado, let'sdive right into my conversation
with Alice Sudlow.
Hi, alice, welcome to theFiction Writing Made Easy
podcast.
Hi, savannah, I'm so excited tobe here, I'm so excited to have
you and, for listeners whomight not know this, alice and I
(02:21):
got to know each other goshalmost 10 years ago, I think.
At this point, in a littleplace in Nashville, we were
training to be story grideditors together.
So we have a long history but,surprisingly, the first time
I've had her on the podcast,yeah, it's amazing.
Speaker 1 (02:35):
It feels like a long time coming.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
Yeah, long time coming, so I gave you a little
introduction already, but canyou tell my audience in your own
words who you are, what you doand things like that?
Little introduction already,but can you?
Speaker 1 (02:44):
tell my audience in your own words who you are, what
you do and things like that.
Absolutely so.
I am a developmental editor andbook coach and what I do is I
help writers who have already,you know, gotten about as far
along in their drafts in theirediting process as they can.
I help them turn those draftsthat they feel like have more
potential in them into reallyamazing stories.
(03:05):
So I come in.
I don't start at the verybeginning with writers.
I like to start in when thestory is already developed and
they have a really strong ideafor what they want the story to
be.
And then we get into thisrefining phase where we start
with the big picture, makingsure the story structure really
works, and then we go all theway down into the scene level
(03:29):
and that kind of late stagerefining to give it the last
polish so that they're ready toquery and pitch and or
self-publish.
I have writers who go both ways.
So I work with clientsone-on-one.
I have a course that I workwith people through scene
editing, scene revision, and Ihave a podcast called your Next
Draft.
That is all about the editingprocess, because I love editing.
Can't get enough of it.
Speaker 2 (03:45):
Yeah, and we will link to all that in the show
notes.
But I think what listeners aregoing to pick up on is that
you're very excited about thispart of the process and for most
people this is not an excitingtime.
So if it were me and I was awriter out there, I'd be like
wow, I can't believe someoneloves this as much as Alice does
.
Like I want to get that energyin my revisions.
So we will link to where youcan find Alice around the
(04:06):
internet in the show notes.
Speaker 1 (04:07):
My goal is to spread editing joy, like if there's one
fundamental thing I want to do.
I want to help everybody loveediting as much as I do.
It's so, so, so fun.
To me it's the best part of thewhole entire writing process,
from idea generation all the wayto you know, putting your book
(04:29):
in readers' hands.
Speaker 2 (04:29):
I'm like the editing process.
That's where it's at, that'swhere the good stuff happens.
And it's funny because Ipersonally agree with you it's
my favorite part of the process.
I love the time of making yourvision match what's on the page,
or vice versa.
So I think it's super fun.
But I know a lot of people arevery overwhelmed by it because
it does feel like aninsurmountable task.
I mean, sometimes you'reworking with over 100,000 words
and you're like what do I dowith this?
Speaker 1 (04:50):
And because no one really trains you how to turn a
first draft into a really greatstory.
There are a lot of resourcesout there that you can hunt down
, but I think it's reallyintuitive for people when they
have a story idea, even ifthey've never written anything
before, to sit down and go cool,I'm going to write a really
long document and then I'll havea book.
But after that the map is a lotless clear and so it kind of
(05:13):
feels like great.
Now I have a giant task aheadof me with no instructions, and
I don't know how to do this.
I don't know how to take thisfrom idea to a really polished
book, and I think that's part ofthe reason why people don't
love the process is just becauseit's very unclear coming into
it what you're actually tryingto do.
Speaker 2 (05:32):
Totally, and I think that's actually really
interesting, because you'reright that there are a lot of
resources on like how to craftcharacters, how to outline your
book, how to do X, Y, Z whenyou're trying to start, but then
, once you have that draft doneI mean, luckily we have your
podcast now and some other greatresources that have come out of
kind of this wave of coachesand editors coming on the scene
but before that it's almost likepeople needed to rely on
(05:54):
someone else to tell them how todo it or to do it for them
through like developmentalediting or whatever.
But now you know, people likeyou are making it easier to do
it ourselves ever.
Speaker 1 (06:04):
But now you know, people like you are making it
easier to do it ourselvesAbsolutely, and I've talked with
several writers who have saidthings like I had to invent this
process myself.
I had to, like, engineer anentire revision strategy and it
took me years to figure out theprocess that I would go through
to edit my book.
I had someone who reached outto me last week who said that
and she was like I love theprocess that you lay out because
(06:25):
it is the thing that I've hadto figure out myself over the
course of like five years andyou've just put it all out there
.
Speaker 2 (06:32):
Yeah, so no more reinventing the wheel.
Alice is going to give you herframework to use.
But I also think it'sinteresting Alice tell me if you
think this is true or falsethat we're going to talk about
using a lot of the same toolsthat we use for writing and
outlining a book, but it's justwe're kind of looking at them
and the manuscript through adifferent lens.
Would you agree or disagreewith that?
Speaker 1 (06:51):
Absolutely so.
A question that I hear a lotfrom writers who listen to my
podcast, which is all aboutediting, is can I use all of
this stuff in the first draftstage?
Can I use it to draft a story?
And the answer is yes because,honestly, a lot of the
fundamental principles andstrategies and everything that
I'm sharing on your next draftare the same kinds of things
(07:12):
that you're sharing here onFiction Writing Made Easy, that
you share in your course.
They're the same things thathelp you construct a story from
the ground up, because,ultimately, what we're doing is
creating the same, you know, endgoal.
We're trying to craft a goodstory which is going to have
cool characters and it's goingto have a great plot and it's
going to have different layersof meaning.
Like, all those things are thesame no matter what stage you're
(07:34):
starting at or what stageyou're using them.
But it's mostly a question ofhow do you like think about the
use of this tool at this stage?
What are you looking for?
What's of this tool at thisstage?
What are you looking for?
What's useful to apply at thisstage?
What helps you move forward atthis stage and what actually
gets you more stopped up,because you're thinking like
three steps ahead and trying tosolve a problem that's not the
(07:56):
problem of the moment.
I think that's probably thebiggest one in all of these
places.
When are you thinking threesteps ahead and you're like
trying to solve tomorrow'sproblem?
So they're all the sameprinciples Story hasn't changed
but it's a question of whatapplication of those principles
is going to be useful to you atany particular stage in your
process.
Speaker 2 (08:15):
Yeah, which I actually think is a little
encouraging, because it's notlike we're saying you have to
learn a whole new toolkit.
You're learning the same things, just applying them differently
.
So, alice, why don't you tellus, like imagine we're a writer
who's just finished this reallymessy first draft, what should
we do?
Like, where do we even startwith this?
Speaker 1 (08:33):
So the very first thing I recommend is to take a
break, because you need a littlebit of mental refreshment to
come back to your story withdifferent eyes.
We're switching hats here fromthe writer hat to the editor hat
and it's helpful to some degreeto even kind of forget what the
words are on the page.
Honestly, as a baselineprinciple for this entire
(08:56):
revision process that I use, thething I'm constantly
encouraging my writers to do isto forget the words on the page.
The words on the page are notthe point at this stage.
They were helpful so you couldget the idea down.
Now we want to zoom out andlook at things big picture.
So the first place I start istake a break.
Whether that's a day or a weekor three weeks or six weeks,
(09:17):
you're not aiming for like ayear here, but just enough of a
pause to give your mind a littlebit of a mental shift.
Speaker 2 (09:22):
And then, alice, if I could pause.
You people ask me all the time.
They say, ok, cool, I heard yougive a general timeline, but
what do you recommend?
What do you think I should do?
I'm curious, what's your answer?
And then I'll tell you myanswer.
It's a great question.
Speaker 1 (09:36):
So I personally would recommend probably I mean I say
two to six weeks.
That's broadly what I recommend.
I probably would say the sweetspot is around four weeks
because it's enough time for youto have a break without losing
momentum on the project.
That's the risk.
You don't want to lose momentum.
But I've also, you know, I readthe artful edit by Susan Bell
(09:59):
and she was like some peoplethey turn around, they have
processes to turn around andstart the revision the very next
day.
So for some people that breakjust ends up being too long and
they do lose momentum over thatperiod of time.
I would probably say four weeksIf I were pinned to the wall
and required to give a timeframe.
Speaker 2 (10:15):
Yeah, you are required today.
And it's funny because that'sthe exact same answer I would
give when people ask me.
They're like, just tell me whatto do and I'll do it.
And it's always like four weeks, just go four weeks.
And, like you said, there aredefinitely people who will want
to turn right around and do it.
So, if that's you, totally fine.
I have also worked with writerswho do that.
But you know, just know, thatwith longer breaks and shorter
breaks, there are pros and cons.
(10:36):
So, okay, so we've taken abreak.
Now what is our next?
Speaker 1 (10:40):
step.
So the next thing to do is tocome back to the manuscript and
read it with purpose, and thepurpose at this stage, in the
approach that I take, thepurpose at this stage is to make
an outline of what is on thepage.
So you're not reading themanuscript with the goal of
(11:00):
going in to make changesAbsolutely not.
That's the last thing Irecommend.
We're not trying to make anychanges to the manuscript right
now.
One more time for the people inthe back Alice, Do not make
changes to the manuscript atthis stage.
You're just going to be likeputting in energy in the least
efficient way.
You know things will bedifferent, but they won't be
holistically improving themanuscript on the whole.
(11:22):
Yeah, so we are not here tomake changes.
We're also not really here atthis stage to look for things to
change.
Those ideas are going to comeup, and so I recommend keeping a
list to the side where you'rewriting down all of the ideas
for things that are coming tomind as you're going through
this.
But you're not even necessarilygoing to look for those things.
(11:42):
All we're trying to do is to gointo the manuscript and create
an outline of what is there, andthere are a few different forms
that this outline can take.
It can be really really briefand short.
I've made outlines ofmanuscripts that are just
reminders for me of what eachscene basically is, where I just
write down like five words todescribe a scene.
But really at this stage, whatI think is most helpful is if
(12:05):
you challenge yourself tosummarize what is on the page
and capture both what ishappening, like what literally
the characters are doing, andalso why that matters to the
story, how it impacts the plotand how it impacts the
characters internally, and whatyou will do as you do that.
First off, you'll condense thestory down into a document.
(12:28):
That's way easier to manage.
You will no longer have to hold100,000 words in your head at a
time.
You will just have to hold5,000 words in your head, and
that's so much easier.
But also you're going to see ohwait, I can't figure out why
this scene matters.
There's no answer to that, andthat's going to be a really
illuminating thing that willjust start already sparking
(12:50):
ideas for noticing what'sworking really strong in the
story and where you've got someweak spots and, alice, can I
challenge you to tell listenerswhat that looks like for the
scene where Katniss volunteersas tribute?
Speaker 2 (13:04):
What would like describing the external and the
internal look like?
Speaker 1 (13:07):
That's a great question and I haven't read that
scene in a while, but I'm goingto imagine that I have.
So where I get plot thingswrong, we'll just I'll help fill
in the gaps.
Perfect, so I would.
In the shortest version it'sKatniss volunteers as tribute.
That's a really short, like keyhere.
But in the longer version Iwould probably write a paragraph
that ranges from about 50 wordsto 100 words, in which I would
(13:32):
say that Katniss goes to thereaping and she watches as
multiple people are selected andthat is stressful, but it's not
like directly harming her.
(13:54):
And then Prim is selected andshe realizes that if she doesn't
do anything then Prim is goingto die Like there's just no way
around that.
Then Prim is going to die Likethere's just no way around that,
and so she raises her hand andvolunteers for the reaping,
which puts her in the crosshairsto potentially die in this
story, but it will save Prim.
And then she is selected.
(14:16):
So now, at the end of that,katniss has been selected for
the Hunger Games, she is joiningthe Hunger Games and she has
saved Prim.
So that is rough and dirty, butit's got in there, what's
literally happening and how it'simpacting Katniss, and you can
break that out in different ways.
You can like describe theaction first and then say this
is how it impacts her, or youcan weave them in together, but
we've got both of those piecesthere.
Speaker 2 (14:38):
Right.
Great job on the fly there,Alice.
Thank you you got it all.
Speaker 1 (14:41):
Did I get the plot right?
You got it all right.
Yep, you're good.
Speaker 2 (14:46):
Okay, so we're creating this outline and we're
jotting down what happens in thescenes, why it matters to the
characters and, like you said,there are going to be places
where you know both parts arebroken.
One of the parts are broken,right.
So maybe we I see this happenwhere writers are like
describing a scene where it'slike these two sit down for
coffee and they're like I'm sobored with this summary and it's
(15:06):
like, yeah, that's probablywhat's happening to readers when
they read this page, right?
So we're just kind of, like yousaid, framing the story in a
shorter, more concise way.
And then what do we do?
Speaker 1 (15:17):
with it.
So the next thing is, I'massuming at this point, as you
have gone through that story andnoticed, oh, the scene with the
characters getting coffee isreally boring.
You've probably made note ofthat in your list of notes about
your story.
Now, what I recommend is to godown to base principles.
So when I'm working with awriter, I read this outline and
(15:40):
then we set it aside for a whileand we use it as reference when
we need to remember, okay, whatdid Katniss do in that scene?
But we don't actually even makeany changes to that outline at
this stage.
We go back down to baseprinciples and I recommend that
you ask yourself reallyfundamental questions.
So that would be, in fact, letme pull up my guide here that
(16:03):
I'm building out with the listof questions that I ask.
That would be why are youwriting this story at all?
Like, let's just start there.
What's the purpose of thisstory?
Like, let's just start there.
What's the purpose of this story?
What is the point of this story?
So what is kind of the meaningthat this story is carrying
underneath it?
Every story does have a point.
(16:25):
So we're not trying to be superdidactic here.
We're just trying toacknowledge what movement is
happening in this story, right?
What is your character's goal?
What are they trying toaccomplish in this story?
What are the stakes of thestory?
Do we have life or death stakes?
Do we have success or failurestakes?
What are the stakes in thisstory?
What's the character's arc ofchange?
This is kind of related to thestakes, but it's the stakes on
(16:47):
the inside of the character.
How are they going to bedifferent at the end of the
story than the beginning of thestory?
And what is the genre of thestory?
And I ask that one last at theend of that list, because all of
those other questions are goingto give you clues to the genre
and so the genre is kind of likedoubling down on.
Ok, now that we see all ofthese things, they point us here
.
I know that you, or I thinkthat you, encourage your writers
(17:09):
to go into their first draftprocess with some awareness of
what their genre is.
So some of these questionsagain, because we're using the
same tools at the same atdifferent stages, some of these
questions are going to be easierto answer because you've
already answered them, butsometimes those answers change,
you know, over the course ofyour drafting process.
Sometimes they shift, Sometimesyou discover new layers to them.
So now we're going back tothese questions and doubling
(17:30):
down, and then the last one inthat stage is what is the
story's point of view, which isI ask it at this stage.
I kind of hold it to the end,because that's really about how
we're presenting the informationto the reader.
All those other ones, though,they're about what information
are we trying to present.
So that's what I do at thisstage, is we ask a ton of
fundamental questions about whatthe story is.
Speaker 2 (17:50):
I love that and that's what I do too, and I'm
working with writers and I feellike sometimes there's this
instinct to want to skip it,because you're like I did this
already or, of course, I'mwriting a fantasy, there's magic
, you know, or whatever.
What would you say to thosepeople who are inclined to skip
this step?
Speaker 1 (18:06):
I would say, first off, I get it because it feels
like you've done this alreadyand it feels like the work is to
go into the manuscript andstart making things better.
But the reality is this is theheart of revision, this is the
heart of the editing process.
This is where the magic happensand your story will.
(18:32):
I honestly feel like I kind ofhave to like it's like a lobster
boiling in a pot situation,like convincing my writers in my
story clarity process that, yes, this is worth doing.
It's like around call two orcall three of a four call
engagement that they're like ohman, I get it, I see it.
I hadn't seen all of this herebefore, so we kind of have to
(18:54):
ease our way in.
But this is the heart ofrevision and you will discover
if you take this part of theprocess really seriously, if you
do it really intentionally, ifyou allow yourself the time to
have the deep thoughts in thisspace, you will find the keys,
the hidden keys that are likewoven in underneath everything
(19:16):
else that you've written.
You'll find the hidden keysthat make your story far more
rich, far more engaging, farmore exciting and that make the
actual making the changes to themanuscripts part way easier.
Like this is where we figureout how to make those changes.
This is absolutely worth it.
Speaker 2 (19:33):
And I think you know people, they tend to want to
skip it a because they'vealready they feel like they've
already done it.
But, like you said, thingschange.
I think we should almost alwayscount on things changing
between our plans and what wewrite.
But also, like you said, itmakes it so much easier once we
get into the actual editing onthe page and people tend to skip
it because they want to get tothat part sooner, but then they
(19:55):
end up spending like months andyears on the page.
You know that part of theprocess when it's like you could
have spent months there insteadof years if you spent time here
answering these fundamentalquestions and just kind of
getting that baseline of whatyour story is about, now that
you've seen it to the end.
So take it from two editors andbook coaches If you're inclined
(20:16):
to skip it, please don't.
Speaker 1 (20:19):
Absolutely.
I mean, the way I think of itis we're separating the thinking
stage and the execution stage.
The thinking stage is going tohappen Like you have to think
about how you're going to shapethe story.
At some point you have to dothe thinking.
But if you can separate it fromthe execution, you can focus on
just one side at a time.
(20:40):
You don't have to worry aboutwhat are the words on the page,
in the scenes, in the chapters,how is this actually working?
Which lines do we use?
When people go into their pages,it's really easy to get sucked
into line editing and the lineediting will keep you surface
level.
It will keep you away from thedeep thoughts about the story.
So if we separate the thinkingand the execution, then you can
(21:02):
put all your energy into justthe thinking, the planning, the
understanding, the vision forthe story first, and then when
you go into execution, it'sgoing to be so easy and so fast.
I mean not easy easy, you knowbut it'll be so much easier.
You'll roll through it becauseyou know exactly what changes to
make and how to make them andwhy they matter and you're just
going to see the story come tolife.
Speaker 2 (21:19):
Right, I totally agree.
Okay, so let's pretend we'vedone that.
We've answered thosefundamental questions that you
just went through.
What do we do next?
Speaker 1 (21:28):
So the next thing is I'll qualify this a little bit
I'll say we've answered thosequestions no-transcript, a
(22:08):
background where we were trainedto observe, observe information
about a story, and then we kindof had to figure out on our own
how do we apply the informationthat we observe.
But basically, once you havethat information that you have
observed, it is a matter ofapplying that to the story
itself.
And the way that I do that is Ipull out the outline again.
Actually, no, I'm jumping ahead.
(22:30):
I don't even pull out theoutline at this point, savannah,
I stay away from the outlinefor as long as possible.
What I do next is I actuallybuild up a teeny, tiny little
outline of the five commandmentsof the global story.
I'm like can we tell this storyin its tiniest little form?
We are building an outline here, but we're going to start
really, really, really small sothat we can see that our arc of
change is working from the veryfirst page to the very last page
(22:51):
in our tightest possible way,tightest possible way.
And even if you did that beforeyou wrote your first draft, I
recommend that you do thisthinking again fresh and put
your story through its pacesagain fresh, so that you can see
.
Okay, now, based on what I'vegot, does this work?
Does that story hold together?
What new ideas do I see when Itry to think through that again?
(23:13):
So that's where I go next.
Take all of those things thatwe established about the
fundamentals of the story andthen build them out into a teeny
tiny little.
Speaker 2 (23:20):
I call it a little six point outline of the heart
of the story arc there and canyou run us through that really
quick, what those commandmentsor those six points are?
Speaker 1 (23:29):
Absolutely so.
The inciting incidents is thefirst one.
It's going to kick the storyoff.
It's what starts the wholeconflict.
I don't list out everyprogressive complication in the
entire book because there aregoing to be so, so many of them,
but you do tend to notice, or Itend to notice, like two or
three major plot points thatreally move the story along.
Sometimes I'll even separateout the midpoint to be a
(23:51):
separate like bullet in thislittle outline, so it ends up
being more like seven points.
But that's one of theprogressive complications, a
really big one that pushes thestory forward in a major way.
And then there's the turningpoint, which is the place that
most greatly challenges theprotagonist on this arc of
change that leads them to acrisis, which is the big
(24:12):
question of the story.
What are they going to do?
Are they going to choose kindof the old way that they have
been solving problems, or arethey going to choose a new way
of solving problems?
Then there's the climax of thestory, the big event.
Honestly, sometimes I startthere when I'm building out this
little outline because a lot oftimes it's like the easiest
thing to spot in the story.
That's the big event, that'sthe climax.
(24:33):
That's where we're going.
And then there's the resolution, which is the new world order.
It is how does the world lookafter we've gone through this
arc of change?
What's different now?
So you know, at the beginningour two protag—our love
interests were not together.
At the end they are together.
So we've got our arc of changemapped out there and when we can
see that, you can see thatyou've got a story that really
(24:56):
does work on the highest biggestlevel.
Speaker 2 (25:03):
Yeah, and something I find when writers do exercises
like this is they'll usuallylook at it and be like, well,
that seems so basic, it seems soboring and it's kind of like it
is supposed to be that way toan extent, because if it's a
love story, what else are youwriting about?
You're writing about two peoplecoming together.
That's going to look the samefor every love story, but then
you flavor it and color in thelines with, like your own unique
story.
So I think if listeners, I'mjust kind of I'm feeling out in
(25:26):
the future what people are goingto be worried about, they're
worried about it seeming boringor like this sounds like every
other story.
I think that's a good sign.
Speaker 1 (25:37):
What do you say, alice?
I think so too.
I think that, on the one hand,archetypes are archetypes
because they work, becausethey're patterns that exist
throughout humanity.
And so if you discover, inbuilding out that little tiny
outline that you're establishing, you're kind of, you know,
falling into an archetype,that's great.
That's a tested framework thatworks, that makes for an
excellent story.
And also, exactly what you'resaying, you're going to color in
(26:02):
the lines, you're going to makeit your own, uniquely different
, with your setting, with yourcharacters, with all of the
details that you add in.
I think, particularly for me atthis stage, the thing that feels
to me like it's most unique andowned by the writer is the, the
crisis question.
What are the stakes that thatspecific protagonist is facing
in that specific question?
(26:24):
There's nuance, there's flavorthere, and what's the solution
that the writer sees to thatquestion?
That tends to be drawn from atleast the way that I approach
this I look for how can we drawthat out of the writer's own
personal experience.
So when I'm coaching a writerthrough all of those initial
questions about you know thepoints and the genres and
(26:47):
everything I'm going deep.
I'm like let's get some journalprompts about when you went
through this really bigexperience in your life and what
we find there is these layersof highly specific nuance that
then shape that crisis question.
So even if this is, you know,girl meets boy, boy gets girl at
the end, great, but that crisisthat is hyper specific to the
(27:08):
writer and it's based on whattheir experiences are, that
they're drawing from their ownlife to say cool, we've got this
big archetype that makes for agreat story.
But this is how it's personaland unique to me.
Speaker 2 (27:19):
Yeah, I think that's so true too.
And that ties back to theme,which is usually also more
specific.
Yes, it's about true lovewinning, or whatever.
But it's like how does truelove win, how do we get the boy
and girl together, or whatever?
So I think that is.
I totally agree.
Okay.
So now that we've done all that, let's pretend we're following
along with this process.
We've created our outline,We've created our five, six,
(27:42):
seven point little mini outline.
What's next?
Speaker 1 (27:46):
So then I take that little mini outline and I start
expanding it and I really lovethe five commandment framework.
I love it because it's fractal,so it works at every level of
story.
If you can figure out how touse it on one level of story,
congratulations, you've got akey to the entire thing.
So if we can use it on thatglobal story level for the
(28:09):
entire story from start tofinish, then we can use it again
for each of the acts.
So I look at the story in termsof four acts and you've got
your beginning, the very firstquarter of your story, and then
I split the middle into two actsthat are each 25%, and then
we've got the end, the very end,the last 25% and each one of
(28:30):
those.
I look for the fivecommandments for each of those
acts, and so then what happensis basically I pull up a
document and I list all of thosepoints out, with just blanks
beside them, so that I'm tryingto fill them out and I fill in
what I know.
And from that six point outlinenow we know the inciting
incident of the story, which isusually going to be.
(28:52):
I tend to find you can correctme on this Savannah if you find
it differently.
I'm still kind of experimentingwith this, to be honest, but I
tend to find you can correct meon this Savannah if you find it
differently.
I'm still kind of experimentingwith this, to be honest, but I
tend to find that that incitingincident either falls as the
inciting incident of the firstact or as the turning point of
the first act, Like it'ssomewhere in there.
It can flow around a little bit, but it's one of those major
points.
We know that the climax of ourlittle six point outline is
going to be the climax of ourfourth act.
(29:13):
So we've got some points thatwe can fill in, just based on
our little six point outline,and usually, usually, the
turning point of that six pointoutline is probably going to be
the turning point of act three.
That's the space where we'rehitting that crisis point for
the character.
Speaker 2 (29:31):
So just to clarify that's the second part of the
middle.
Speaker 1 (29:33):
When you say act three yes, so some people call
it middle build two, some peoplecall it like act two, part two.
I like the shorthand of fouracts one, two, three, four.
But it confuses people becausethere are so many ways in which
people number their acts.
So, yes, it's like around that65 to 70% mark in the story.
So I map out, you know, whatwe've got from our six point
(30:02):
outline into the full act by actoutline, and then we start
filling in the blanks and say,ok, what's the arc that's
happening within each of theseacts?
And if we had for the story as awhole, the stakes are, you know
, life or death, or the stakesare love or hate, then I'm
looking at for each of theseacts, what is, what's our
starting state and our endingstate on that point.
And we're mapping what's thatarc, what's the goal for the
character within this act, whatare they pursuing and how is
that challenged throughout thisact?
(30:23):
And we use the same globaltools, we use them on the act
level to map out what are theselittle arcs of change all the
way through.
Speaker 2 (30:30):
And what would you say to someone who's listening
and they're like I just hateoutlining, I hate structure.
This makes me feel like I justwant to like light everything on
fire.
Speaker 1 (30:39):
What would you say to those people?
I mean, I recently talked withauthor AS King, who's a
brilliant surrealist author ofYA novels and also novels for
(31:02):
middle grade and adults.
She's brilliant and she usesthe surrealist writing method,
which is just to sit down andwrite whatever comes to mind as
fast as possible, withoutquestioning it.
So it's very pantser heavy andthen when she goes into revise
she just like combs her waythrough, starts on page one and
combs her way down and shewrites brilliant novels that way
.
She's not approaching them fromlike let's map out every point
(31:26):
of our story structure, but shewrites brilliant novels.
But I will say also so there'sno like one right way to write
or to edit a novel.
But I will say, even if youstarted off pantsing your way
through the first draft, therevision process is the point
where story structure reallystarts coming into play, because
(31:49):
the goal of this whole revisionprocess I mean we're talking
specifically second drafts here,but we're also talking, I would
say, any story that hasn't yetgone through this fundamental
structuring of the story.
I've seen, you know, 10thdrafts that someone has worked
on for 10 years and the storyhasn't had this structure built
(32:11):
in.
They've got lots of beautifullanguage, but they've never put
the structure together.
At some point you've got tohave a story with structure to
it, otherwise you end up with anarrative that just rambles out
into the weeds, that doesn'thave an arc of change, that your
reader can't make heads ortails of.
And they go well.
I read a lot of words.
(32:31):
I don't know what those wordswere doing, but I read them.
So at some point your storyneeds structure and this process
.
You don't have to be asstructured as this in your
process.
You can also outsource this.
You can come work with me, youcan come work with another
editor who will do this kind ofanalytical thinking, really like
on the back end, while yourexperience is, I'm asking you a
(32:54):
ton of questions where I'msaying cool, what do you believe
about you know?
Love, about life, aboutfriendship, about anything.
And then, like I've had writerswho sit there going I don't
even know like how you did this.
It doesn't feel like we'reworking, we're just having a
conversation and suddenly Ifigured out the whole end of my
quartet here.
And you can feel like that onthe writer's side if you bring
(33:15):
in an editor who can do thisstrategy on the back end for you
and then kind of present to youwell, this is the structure
you've laid out.
Does that sound like what youwant to do?
But the structuring of thestory has to happen at some
point in order to create a storythat is going to engage your
readers.
So if you want to fast trackthat process a little bit, you
(33:38):
can use these structural toolsto give you some handholds in
that.
Otherwise, you can move throughit via intuition, and it's not
that that doesn't work.
It's just probably going totake you a while to end up at a
story that really, really clicks.
Speaker 2 (33:51):
And I think that piece about outsourcing is
really important, because a lotof people who are like the more
creative I don't want tostructure my story they're going
to maybe feel a littlehandcuffed by any kind of
structure and, like you said,that's my experience too,
working with writers at thisstage, where it's we just ask a
bunch of questions and then,like, let your editor kind of
(34:11):
carry that burden for you andyou get to still be that
creative brain.
So you know that is an option.
I think sometimes people forgetthat that's an option, so I
just want to remind everybody.
I think sometimes people forgetthat that's an option, so I
just want to remind everybody.
Okay, so, alice, what is upnext after that?
Speaker 1 (34:26):
So we've got our little six point outline and
we've got our act by act outline.
At this point I expand thatinto a scene by scene outline.
So my goal now is we've donethe hardest part of the work.
I'm just going to plant a flagthere and say we've done the
(34:47):
hardest part of the work.
We've figured out what thestory is, we figured out how
that story arc takes place andwe've figured out what each act
of the story is doing so we cansee the momentum all the way
through the story.
The hardest part is done.
So now we're trying to takethat outline and expand it into
a map.
That will make the actualrevision process on the page of
the manuscript as easy aspossible.
So what I do now is I expandthat act by act outline into a
(35:09):
scene by scene outline and atthis point we can come back to
that original scene outline thatyou created when you were first
finishing the draft and we canstart making changes directly
there.
Like we can start pulling out.
Okay, just move scenes around oradd a new scene here or cut the
scene.
It can be like you've got thismodular document where you're
(35:32):
moving your puzzle pieces aroundto fit your map, the larger
kind of vision you've created.
Or, you know, sometimes we moveit directly on that original
outline.
You know I love versioningcreate a new copy, so you've
always got the old version, butyou can move it directly on that
outline.
Or you can create a newdocument or just take that act
by act outline and startexpanding it into scenes and
(35:52):
referencing the old material.
So you know, you know you havethese things on the page.
You'll pull those into your newdocument as you like.
But basically our goal here isto create an outline that lists
out every scene so that when wego to the manuscript we know
what scenes are going to bethere and we know really easily
what material to cut.
And at this stage I like towrite down, you know, whatever
(36:13):
information you know about thosescenes.
So if you want to keep the samekind of format from that
original scene list where we'redescribing the external action
and also the internal world forthe character in the span of
about 100 words, like that'sgreat.
If you're like, hey, I don'twant to be restricted on this
one anymore, I want to, like putall the detail in so I really
understand what's happening inthe scene, I can see things in
(36:35):
my mind.
I've got ideas of particulardetails that need to go on the
page.
Great, get that down on theoutline and hold that there as
your kind of like guide so thatwhen you get to the manuscript
it's all there and all you'vegot to do is execute.
So that's our step.
There is turn that act by actoutline into the scene by scene
outline.
Speaker 2 (36:54):
Awesome.
And just for anyone listening,imagine having not done all that
big picture work and kind ofsaying what is my North Star,
where do I want this draft to go?
And sitting down and looking at100,000 words on paper, that's
really overwhelming.
No wonder so many people don'tlike the editing process, right?
Yes, I think all the stuffAlice covered already is super
important and like yes, it willtake time, it should take time.
(37:17):
It's valuable thinking thatyou're doing and then, once you
get to this stage, take time.
Speaker 1 (37:22):
It's valuable thinking that you're doing and
then, once you get to, thisstage you're kind of just
hitting the ground running,which is great, exactly.
You go back into thatmanuscript and you know I'm not
going to downplay the amount ofwork that this takes or ever say
that this process gets easy.
I don't think that that's everquite the right word to use for
this but it's so much easier.
It's so much more directed andtargeted.
You'll open up that manuscriptand you'll be like I already
(37:42):
know that pages 25 to 32, theyjust need to go.
I can just cut them right out.
It'll take me two minutes to dothat.
I already know that I need towrite this scene over here
halfway through the story andit's so clearly pictured in my
mind because I've spent all ofthis time thinking about how the
story arc goes together andwhat that scene does for the
story and why it's so important,that now it's just like already
(38:03):
in there.
All I have to do is transcribethe idea that's already been
built up.
So when you get to the actualchanging the words on the page
stage, it becomes so muchclearer what changes you
actually make and you get out ofline editing purgatory, which
is what I think about it.
When writers just open up theirdrafts.
(38:23):
This is like the bad way.
Not the bad way.
This is the inefficient way todo a structural edit of your
manuscript.
Open up the draft, start at thetop on page one and just start
working your way through.
You'll probably end up with 18versions of chapter one because
you're just never satisfied withit, and the final chapter is
going to languish at the endgathering dust.
(38:44):
You'll never touch it and inthe middle you'll just have all
these beautifully polishedsentences, but you'll be like
the story still has plot holesand none of these sentences have
fixed the plot holes.
This is how you fix the plotholes.
Speaker 2 (38:54):
Yeah, and I'm sure we could create a list over a
hundred people of we've seen dothat just between us two as
editors.
Like people get stuck there andit it makes sense why it's the
first thing we go to, because wewrote these words, we want to
fix them, but you just get solost in the weeds that it's
super inefficient, not veryhelpful for you, and then you
end up with something thatdoesn't work.
Speaker 1 (39:16):
And because, again, no one was it was an intuitive
process to write the first draft, and so the only map that we
have after we've written thefirst draft if we've never gone
through the process of revisinga book before is to say, hey
well, I started on page one thefirst time, I'll just do that
again Start on page one and workmy way through.
And the revision process isjust a different beast.
(39:36):
Editing a book is a differentbeast from writing a book and it
needs a different process tosupport it.
So that's really it's like thekey here the tools that we use,
the questions that we're askingthey're the same questions at
any stage, but the process inwhich we use them is very, very
different.
Speaker 2 (39:49):
The revision process is not like the editing process
or the writing process, yeah,and it requires more of a
logical, analytical brain, atleast when you're kind of going
through those bigger questionsand then.
So it's kind of like you wrotethe book, you were in that
creative side, even if yououtlined, you're in that
creative side of your brain,then you pause and you go on
that logical side.
Then you can flip back becauseyou have your plan.
(40:10):
So it's like we all want to.
I think a lot of us want to getback to that creative side and
that creative process and it'slike this process and these
tools will help you get therequicker and also make it more
fun.
Speaker 1 (40:22):
Yes, and I think two things.
First, you're both the puzzlemaker and the puzzle solver.
I didn't make that up, Somebodyelse said it recently.
I forget who it was.
I wish I could credit them.
But you're the one who createdthe puzzle of the story and
you're also the person who getsto solve the puzzle of the story
.
And the creation of the puzzlewas when you wrote the first
draft and now we're in puzzlesolver mode, which is a
(40:46):
different hat to wear when we'retrying to put the pieces
together.
But also, I think that there'sso much creation hidden within
the revision steps of even thatearly big picture thinking.
Because when we're askingquestions like why does
friendship matter to you, that'screation kind of space.
And when you can outsource theanalytical pieces largely to an
(41:07):
editor, you get more freedom tostay in that creative space.
Because I'll ask you what doesfriendship mean to you?
You'll be in the creative spaceto think about that and then
I'll come back and say, great,here's what that means for your
story structurally andanalytically.
And then you can say like yayor nay, like that works or
doesn't work, but like I've donea lot of the analytical side of
(41:29):
it for you so you can stay in alittle bit more of the creative
space.
Speaker 2 (41:32):
Plus, I think sometimes too, we discount, like
we think that editing doesn'tequal creativity at all, and I
think you have to be supercreative to solve problems.
Like you know, you can't alwayslogic your way out of
everything.
So I don't know in my world.
I'm always like, how do we finda balance between the two?
Some people say like I alwayswant to be creative or I always
want to be logical, and I don'tthink that's always going to
(41:53):
work personally.
But I think this process is agreat way to just kind of
separate, like you said, thosebrains and then also make the
whole thing easier and moreefficient.
So, alice, I have a questionfor you, kind of on the back end
of that.
Well, I have two questions.
One is, let's say, so thisprocess carries you through that
second draft, right?
Yes, okay, and so then, intheory, you can kind of just
(42:16):
repeat if you want, right, youcan repeat the entire process
again, or what do you recommend,people?
Speaker 1 (42:21):
do so.
I just on principle here.
What I recommend is just aconstant back and forth between
draft to outline, manuscripts tooutline, manuscripts to outline
, and creating a new outlinethat matches the existing draft
every time, because you'll againyou'll see new things.
The first thing that I invitenew clients to do when they come
(42:43):
to work with me is to createthat outline, because I want
them to send it to me, and everysingle time they email me and
say I discovered so much when Iwas making this outline, like I
have so many ideas for my storynow and what I want to change.
So even just that act, even ifthat is the only thing that you
take from this entire processand you're like the rest of this
(43:07):
is trash, even if that's allyou take, that process of going
from manuscripts to outline tomanuscript is going to
illuminate so many things aboutyour story, every single draft
that you do it.
I do think that.
I mean I think that going downto the base principles every
single time is really helpful.
I've had clients who love theanalytical side of things and
they've done this analyticalwork themselves like three times
over and then they've workedwith another editor.
(43:29):
Sometimes they've gone to workwith you, savannah, and you've
done that analytical work withthem and they've done another
draft.
And then they come to me andI'm like, great, I can see, I
can so clearly see the fruits ofall of that labor.
And first thing I'm going to dois go back to those base
principles again and build upthe story for myself and we're
going to just vet at every stepand what we'll see is that more
(43:51):
and more things become solid andeasier to answer more quickly
every time.
You do that, which will open upthe next layer of discovery.
To say okay, like, for instance, just thinking about a.
The next layer of discovery.
To say okay, like, for instance, just thinking about a writer
that I've worked with recently.
They had worked with you,savannah, and when they came to
me they knew all of these thingsabout their story and I brought
us back to base principles andsome of the questions.
(44:12):
I was like I'm going to be justrepeating things you already
know.
So, just like, tell me whatthey are, because you know them.
And what we discovered was thenext layer that was needed in
the story was the character'sarc of change was already set up
(44:43):
because of all of the work thatthis writer had done in all of
those previous edits.
And when we did that work again, you know, for probably like
the fifth time, we found thatnext layer to say this is what's
going to really create emphasisand catharsis for the reader
here.
So every time it's worth doingAt some point.
You know we can't be doing thisfor 40 drafts, like there's no
(45:07):
need for that.
We do have to stop eventually.
And I would say that some of theart and the challenge, the
difficulty of revision, isknowing when to stop, knowing
when we've done enough.
So when you start finding thediminishing returns on that,
when you do that process again,when you do that process with
feedback, when you're talkingout your ideas with beta readers
(45:28):
or with critique partners orwith an editor, and you just
feel like it's so solid, it's sothere, everything's clicking,
everything's aligning.
There's nothing new that'scoming up from these
conversations.
You're hitting diminishingreturns and it's probably time
to really like zoom in on thedetails of the scenes, make sure
they're hitting every levelthat you want them to and then
call it done and ship it off andsay you finished.
(45:49):
But this is the process that Iwould use for all of those big
picture revisions.
You can do it one time or threetimes or five times, and do it
10 times and you'll find newthings, but you'll probably
start hitting diminishingreturns and diminishing energy
on the project.
Speaker 2 (46:05):
Yeah, and I think what you said is.
So it goes back to kind of whatyou said in the beginning about
editing is really when revisingis where that magic happens,
because, like you said, someonecame to you with a story that
worked and let's just go on thisexample we were using of a
romance earlier.
You could have, let's say, fivedifferent romance novels where
the character is learning abouthow to trust another person and
(46:25):
they have to trust the loveinterest in order to get there,
happily ever after.
It's through these multipleiterations of these questions,
these core questions that youfind well, what is my version of
learning truth, or what doestruth look like to me versus to
Alice, to another writer?
And so it's like you can writea really good first draft, but
(46:46):
then doing this deeper workequals the magic that we all
want coming out of our books andthat, those goosebumps that
readers feel and those glowingreviews and things like that.
So it is well worth theexercise and the multiple rounds
if that is your goal, to writea book like that.
Speaker 1 (47:03):
It's so fun.
I mean to see thetransformation from cool this is
a good idea with potential andit's fun.
You've got a lot of great setpieces here.
That's one of the things that Isay a lot.
You have a lot of great setpieces.
You have a lot of great momentsand action sequences or
whatever our external genre is.
So you know, like our lover'sfirst kiss moment, that's a cool
little plot element that you'vegot over here.
(47:24):
We're going to create so muchmeaning behind that.
We're going to make all thathang together so tightly.
We're going to make it feel soexciting to the reader.
It's going to go from that's alot of cool ideas that are all
together in a really longdocument to this is a brilliant
story that your readers can'tput down.
And I love seeing thattransformation.
(47:45):
And like I laugh because I'vegot, I think, three stories on
my desk right now that are allfriendship stories and so, like
the fundamental questions of whyis friendship important and how
do we keep and maintain andrepair and create new
friendships, like all of thosequestions, those are the same
kind of questions that I'masking multiple writers right
(48:05):
now, but the stories are sodifferent because every writer
is coming to that with a uniquetake on the friendships they've
experienced in their lives, thereasons why friendships are
important to them, the thingsthey want to say to a different
set of readers, whether thosereaders are, you know, 10 years
old or 40 years old, whetherthey're readers who love fantasy
(48:26):
worlds or they're readers whoare really struggling with
something in their work lives.
Like they're all stories aboutfriendship, but there's a
uniqueness from every singlewriter that makes every one of
those so fun to explore on theirown terms.
Speaker 2 (48:41):
And I think this is what people mean when they say
write what you know.
Yes, it could be true thatmaybe you were a nurse in a past
life and so you're writing amedical thriller or whatever.
That is one layer of it, butit's also like what is your
personal experience that makesyour story more you and more
unique.
Speaker 1 (48:58):
Yes, absolutely.
What human truths can you findwithin yourself, within your own
life, within your ownexperience, that you want to
share with the world?
I think that, fundamentally,stories are how humans
communicate.
It's how we share ourexperiences with other people,
(49:18):
how we share ideas with otherpeople.
I will be honest, I'm reallybad at reading nonfiction books.
Like the number of nonfictionbooks that I have not finished
is like shameful.
It's terrible.
You give me the ideas that arein a nonfiction book but you put
them in a story and I will eatit up.
Like that's how we engage withthe minds, the thought process,
(49:41):
the experiences of other humanbeings.
And so you know, whether yourbook is set now like just down
the street from your house or onanother planet, with dragons or
anything like, what you know isstill the heart of it your own
experiences, your own ideasabout the world.
And that's the work in thatrevision step that people want
to skip that early stage,figuring out what that is.
(50:04):
It's not just like what are thelogistics of?
How do I don't know dragons get, you know, materials for
saddles in our planet, in adifferent galaxy?
That's not the heart of thestory here.
The heart of the story is whatof you is going into this story?
And that's what I love touncover with writers.
Speaker 2 (50:23):
I love what you just said, too, about like the thing
that you don't want to do.
That's probably what you needto do to make the magic happen.
So if there's anyone listeningwho's avoiding a part of the
writing or editing process, it'sprobably because you need to
dig into it and do the work, andthat will be the magic that
comes out of it.
So, alice, I think we can justwrap up there.
(50:47):
I think that was amazing, and Iknow that you have a guide for
listeners.
Speaker 1 (50:49):
Do you want to tell them about that really quick?
Absolutely, so it is a guide toall of the things that I have
been talking about here.
I am currently, as we recordthis podcast, putting the
finishing touches on it, so I'mprobably going to change the
title, but right now the workingtitle is the Five-Phase Novel
Revision Process, even if you'veedited your manuscript a dozen
times already.
And the reason why I call it afive-phase revision process is
(51:12):
because it goes through all ofthese buckets of steps that
Savannah and I have been talkingabout here.
But I break down the stepswithin them because you know
figuring out what your point is,figuring out what your genre is
, figuring out what your pointof view is those are all very
different steps, so it's all onephase, but I list out a lot of
those questions that I ask here.
So it is a guide for if you arefeeling like you're stuck in
(51:37):
line, editing purgatory, if youare feeling like you made it
through to the end of your firstdraft but nobody taught you
what to do once you finish thatand how to turn that into a
great story, this guide is yourmap for that whole entire
process.
I wish that I could promise itwould make it easy.
It won't make it easy becausethere are still a lot of places
where you're going to have toask really big, challenging
(52:00):
questions that are probablygoing to be hard to answer and
hard to figure out how to applyto your story.
But it is going to make it muchmore clear how to walk through
that whole path from start tofinish.
Speaker 2 (52:10):
Yes, so we will put the link to that and to Alice's
website and her podcast and allthe things in the show notes.
But, alice, thank you so muchfor coming on the show.
Thank you so much for having meSavannah.
Speaker 1 (52:20):
This is so fun.
I love sharing these ideas.
This revision process we'vebeen talking about is the things
that I think that every writershould know, and yet nobody
knows them.
So I'm really glad to get toshare them here and glad to get
to join you on Fiction WritingMade Easy.
So thank you.
Speaker 2 (52:38):
All right, so that's it for this episode of the
Fiction Writing Made Easypodcast.
So thank you, stage.
Whether you're just startingout, stuck somewhere in the
(52:59):
middle of a draft, drowning inrevisions or getting ready to
publish, take my free 30-secondquiz at savannahgilbocom forward
slash quiz.
You'll get a customized podcastplaylist that'll meet you right
where you're at and help youget to your next big milestone.
Last but not least, make sureto follow this podcast in your
podcast player of choice,because I'll be back next week
with another episode full ofactionable tips, tools and
(53:22):
strategies to help you become abetter writer.
Until then, happy writing.
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