September 16, 2025 • 35 mins
Want to write a Romantasy that readers obsess over? Here’s how to deliver the tropes, intimacy, and magic readers crave.
Romantasy is everywhere right now, and for good reason—it’s the perfect mix of swoony romance, epic fantasy, and unforgettable characters. But if you’ve ever thought, “How do I even start writing Romantasy?” you’re not alone. With so much hype around the genre, it’s easy to feel overwhelmed by all the tropes, rules, and expectations.
That’s why I sat down with Jenna Moreci, an award-winning and Amazon bestselling author, to break down her best tips from her upcoming book, How to Write Romantasy. Whether you’re plotting your first fantasy romance or trying to figure out how to balance magic and intimacy, this episode is packed with actionable advice to help you avoid the most common mistakes, create power couples readers can't stop rooting for, and write the Romantasy you’ve been dreaming of.
Here’s what we talk about:
[07:31] How to approach popular tropes like ‘shadow daddies’ in a way that feels unique to your story, rather than copying and pasting.
[11:42] The 3-part chemistry framework that helps your characters belong together and saves you from endless rewrites.
[17:00] Why emotional intimacy is the real secret weapon in Romantasy, plus the five types of scenes you can’t skip.
[22:25] Smut, spice, or sweet? The surprising truth about writing intimate scenes and why they don’t have to be “super steamy” to hook readers.
[32:28] Why writing Romantasy should be fun and the mindset shift that makes the whole process more enjoyable.
If you've been wondering how to write Romantasy or you're plotting your first fantasy romance, this episode is your ultimate guide to balancing fantasy, romance, reader expectations, and earning those five-star reviews.
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If you loved this episode, please take a moment to follow the show and leave a review on Apple Podcasts! Your review will help other writers find this podcast and get the insights they need to finish their books. Thanks for tuning in to The Fiction Writing Made Easy Podcast! See you next week!
🔗 Links mentioned in this episode:
- Pre-Order How to Write Romantasy
- Get a FREE Digital Workbook With Proof of Preorder Here
- YouTube: Writing With Jenna Moreci
- Ep. 182- Writing Romantasy: How to Balance Fantasy Elements and Romance in Your Novel
👉 Looking for a transcript? If you’re listening on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, scroll down below the episode player until you see the transcript.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
So romanticism is the big trending genre right now
and there are a lot of heavyhitters in the genre who are
doing really well and justabsolutely killing it with sales
and it's very tempting to copyand paste what they're doing and
it's totally fine if you wantto ride certain trends.
It's totally fine if you wantto write to market.
You know that's even preferredin many cases.
But you can put your own uniquespin on a trend.
(00:23):
Enemies to Lovers is huge rightnow.
You can write Enemies to Loversyour own way.
You don't have to regurgitatewhat someone else has already
done.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
Welcome to the Fiction Writing Made Easy
podcast.
My name is Savannah Gilbo andI'm here to help you write a
story that works.
I want to prove to you thatwriting a novel doesn't have to
be overwhelming, so each week,I'll bring you a brand new
episode with simple, actionableand step-by-step strategies that
you can implement in yourwriting right away.
So, whether you're brand new towriting or more of a seasoned
(00:55):
author looking to improve yourcraft, this podcast is for you.
So pick up a pen and let's getstarted.
If you've ever wondered how tobalance magic and romance in
your writing, or what exactlymakes a book romantic-y versus
just fantasy with a romanticsubplot, then this episode is
for you.
Today, I'm joined by JennaMaresi, an award-winning
(01:15):
romantic-y author, writing craftexpert and YouTube sensation.
Jenna's first book in the Saviorseries, the Savior's Champion,
was voted one of the best booksof all time by Book Depository,
and her writing craft book, shutUp and Write.
The Book has helped thousandsof writers take their stories to
the next level.
Now Jenna's back with hersecond writing craft book, how
(01:36):
to Write Romanticy, whichreleased this October, and trust
me, it's packed with everythingyou need to create
unforgettable characters,irresistible romantic pairings
and stories that readers willobsess over.
In this episode, jenna'sbreaking down her three-part
framework for crafting powercouples, aka those romantic
pairings that feel perfectlysuited for each other, and she's
(01:57):
sharing the five types ofscenes that you need to build
emotional intimacy between yourcharacters.
Plus, we talk about how to pacea romantic arc across an entire
series without writing yourselfinto a corner.
Whether you're writing clean andsweet romanticism or planning
to turn up the heat, thisepisode is full of practical
strategies and creativeinspiration.
So grab a notebook, because youwill want to take notes, and
(02:19):
let's dive right into myconversation with Jenna Maresi.
Hi, jenna, welcome to theFiction Writing Made Easy
podcast.
I would love for you, in yourown words, to tell my audience
who you are, what you do andthings like that.
Speaker 1 (02:30):
Thank you so much for having me.
It is a huge honor to be here.
My name is Jenna Maresi.
I am an award-winning andAmazon bestselling author of
Romantasy.
As well as writing craft books,I'm also a YouTuber over on the
channel writing with JennaMoreci.
So if you need any writingadvice and want a hefty dose of
sarcasm and humor alongside it,that's what I do over on my
(02:50):
channel.
Speaker 2 (02:51):
Yeah, I love that, and so we're here to celebrate
your new book that's coming out,which is called how to Write
Romanticy.
And so what inspired you tocreate a guide about this topic?
Speaker 1 (03:01):
Actually, this was something I, when it comes to
writing craft books, I basicallyhave a list of topics that I
want to cover, because I coverso much on my channel and after
years of, you know, having thisYouTube channel, people were
like when are you going torelease a book about it?
So first I really shut up andwrite the book, which is
basically just an overview, likea step-by-step guide, of the
overall writing process, and Ihad a list of other topics that
(03:22):
I wanted to cover eventually.
But what had happened wasactually an editor over at 10
Speed Press, which is an imprintof Penguin Random House,
reached out to me and they saidyou know, romantasy is really
huge right now and you know, wesee, you know, you give writing
advice.
You, you know, release, shut Upand Write the Book.
It was very successful.
You write Romantasy yourself.
You know, the Savior series,which is my Romantasy series, is
(03:44):
very successful.
We were wondering if you wantedto work with us on writing a
Romantasy guide.
So it had already been on mylist, but it wasn't like the
next topic I was going to coverand I was still deciding what
the next topic would be.
And then I got this email andI'm like, well, they decided for
me, you know.
So, you know, I ended upsigning with 10 Speed Press and
everything, and they kind ofmade the decision easy for me
(04:05):
because I didn't know where togo.
And I'm like, okay, well, thisopportunity fell in my lap.
Speaker 2 (04:09):
I'm gonna take it.
That's right.
The universe is like hint, hint, nudge, nudge.
We need to get this book, Ilove that, and so, okay, let's
back up to.
Let's pretend we're a brand newwriter or we're someone who's
like maybe I write fantasy,maybe I write romance, maybe I
want to start writing romantasy.
How do you define romantasy asa genre?
(04:30):
What are the differencesbetween just fantasy or just
romance?
Talk to me about that.
Speaker 1 (04:34):
This is a great question.
I see there's a lot ofconfusion online about it.
I see people saying thatromantasy is just fantasy with a
romantic subplot.
That is not true.
If you were to release afantasy novel with a romantic
subplot and call it romantasy,you will just get dive-bombed
with one-star reviews.
So just to clear the air,romantasy is just a book that's
(04:55):
half fantasy, half romance.
So it helps to understand whatconstitutes fantasy and romance.
Fantasy is a speculative fictionthat either takes place in a
fictional, fantastical world orit contains magic and magical
creatures, or both.
And then romance is a storythat follows two or more people
falling in love.
Something threatens their lovebut they defy you know the odds
(05:18):
and they end up living happilyever after or happy for now.
Just to clarify it is not aromance if they don't end up
happy together at the end.
That is a rule of the genre.
I'm sure people can think oflots of romantic stories that
end tragically, like, forexample, romeo and Juliet.
A story can be romantic and notbe a romance.
So Romeo and Juliet is actuallydefined as a tragedy, or
(05:42):
sometimes a romantic tragedy.
But if you want the book to belabeled a romance, it has to end
happily.
So Romanticy is just acombination of fantasy and
romance.
You've kind of got half andhalf within the genre and
basically what we have is two ormore people who are falling in
love, but something, usuallyfantastical, is threatening
(06:04):
their love.
So some kind of you know,monster or villain, or wars
between fantasy, you know worldsor realms is threatening their
love, but by the end they end upbeing happy together or, you
know, happily ever after.
Speaker 2 (06:18):
Yeah, and that could be correct me if I'm wrong but
for the end of a book or the endof a series.
Speaker 1 (06:21):
The end of a series.
It's totally fine, and this isanother question a lot of
writers have.
They're like well, I want themto be broken up at the end of
the first book.
That's totally fine.
You can have them estrangedmid-series, you could have one
of them thinking the other isdead.
It's totally fine if bookswithin the series end unhappily,
but by the end of the seriesthey need to be together and in
(06:42):
love and everything's justrainbows and sunshine.
Speaker 2 (06:45):
And I think that's so important to note because we do
want to deliver on those genreexpectations.
And you know, this is differentthan just straight up romance,
where we would expect that atthe end of a book, at each book,
there needs to be that happilyever after or happily for now,
and then in a fantasy with aromantic subplot.
That's very different too.
So I love that you're kind ofsaying it's 50-50.
(07:06):
And then the next obviousquestion is like well, how do we
balance that?
Because that feels a littlehard right, it's different than
just saying like I'm writing,let's say, a crime story with a
romance subplot or whatever.
It's like no, these need tocarry equal weight.
How do we do that?
Speaker 1 (07:20):
Well, I think a lot of it comes down to the fantasy
is usually represented in theworld that the characters are
living in.
Even if you're writing acontemporary romanticist that
takes place in like SanFrancisco or Italy, there's
usually San Francisco is nowfilled with, you know, magicians
or unicorns or things like that.
So that would be right, exactly.
So that would be what we wouldconsider like world building
(07:41):
elements.
So usually the world and theactual dangers that the
characters are facing are thefantasy elements.
So usually the world and theactual dangers that the
characters are facing are thefantasy elements.
And then when it comes to theinternal conflicts, those are
usually of the romantic variety.
So that's a good way to balancethings.
The easiest way for me is, whileI'm writing, I look at every
single chapter and I make suredid the plot get moved forward?
And when I say the plot, Iusually mean the romance between
(08:04):
the characters.
So if you have a chapter wherenothing is happening to move the
romantic story forward, even ifit's just the tiniest thing,
because sometimes the loveinterests aren't even in the
same chapter together butsomething might happen to
character A that we know willhave a direct effect on the
romance later on in the story.
So, taking a look at everychapter and thinking, how did
(08:27):
this move the romance forward?
Because usually fantasy isgoing to be in every chapter.
It's because you're writing ina fantastical world, you know,
and people are sword fighting oryou know fighting with, you
know magic and wands.
So I like to look at theromance element and think, okay,
did this move the romanceforward in any way?
Even if they're not in thechapter together, consequences
(08:47):
will happen that will affect thelove story as a whole.
Speaker 2 (08:49):
Yes, and I think that's so important to kind of
think about balance that way.
And how does the romantic pieceof it affect the you know, the
fantasy aspect?
How does the fantasy aspect inthose stakes affect the romantic
stakes and really like theyshould all play together and
affect each other?
Right, that's how we get that50-50.
Exactly, and so just real quick, I wasn't planning to ask you
(09:10):
this, but is there like one ortwo big mistakes that people
make when they try to blendthese two things together?
Speaker 1 (09:16):
Well, the biggest mistake is writing a romantic
subplot and then calling itromantic.
That's one that I see a lot andit's also tough because some
writers they're just trying tomarket their book and they know
it's a subplot, but they seethat Romantasy is so big they're
like I'm going to call it aRomantasy and I'll reach more
readers and they're justshooting themselves in the foot.
So, honestly, that is thebiggest mistake.
Also, another big mistake andI'm trying to think of a tactful
(09:39):
way towards this Romantasy isthe big trending genre right now
and there are a lot of heavyhitters in the genre who are
doing really well and justabsolutely killing it with sales
.
And it's very tempting to copyand paste what they're doing.
And it's totally fine if youwant to ride certain trends.
It's totally fine if you wantto write to market.
You know that's even preferredin many cases.
(10:01):
But you can put your own uniquespin on a trend.
Enemies to Lovers is huge rightnow.
You can write Enemies to Loversyour own way.
You don't have to regurgitatewhat someone else has already
done.
And another big popular trendright now is Shadow Daddies,
which is basically like amorally gray guy who's got dark
hair and is kind of broody.
There's a certain blueprintthat is very specific that we
(10:23):
see being churned out over andover again with shadow daddies,
and I was actually just speakingwith another Romantasy author
recently who she writes shadowdaddies but hers are unique to
her.
She's able to put her own spinon them.
If you want to write a shadowdaddy, you totally can, but do
that.
Make it unique, your own uniquecharacter.
You don't have to copy andpaste what has already been done
in order to be popular.
(10:44):
You can still write a trend,but give it your own unique
voice.
Speaker 2 (10:47):
Right.
I think that's so important too, because it's easy to get hung
up on things like that and say,shadow daddy or enemies to
lovers equals romanticism.
It's like, no, that's just kindof the way the characters are
showing up and you can includethat, but we still need to know
what's their purpose.
What are they doing here, howdo they add to your story and
how are they yours Exactly?
I think those are two greatthings to highlight of.
Let's just be careful we don'tdo these things.
Speaker 1 (11:09):
Right, and I think it's also important to note.
You know, I have a successfulromantic series.
It's not enemies to lovers.
In the main male characterisn't a shadow daddy, if
anything.
I did kind of a reverse wherewe see a lot of bad boy and good
girl.
So I did a bad girl and a goodboy, you know.
So just saying like sometimespeople see these trends and
they're like, oh crap, that'snot what I'm writing.
(11:30):
It's fine, you don't.
You don't have to follow thetrends to be successful, and if
you do want to follow the trends, that's fine too.
Speaker 2 (11:37):
Just add your own unique spin to it, yeah, and I
think what a fun opportunity forus creative people right Like
how do we add our own spin tosomething like that and how do
we rise to that challenge?
Speaker 1 (11:50):
So right, very cool, but for me that's that's the fun
part, you know making it yourown.
So yeah, I don't.
I don't see the appeal and justregurgitating what's already
been done.
Speaker 2 (11:55):
Yeah, I think so too, and I think a lot of listeners
will probably agree like okay,challenge accepted, how do I do
this?
But speaking of characters, Iknow we're going to talk about
this a lot today, because thatis really what's at the heart of
romantasy, right?
It's like we want to see thatromantic relationship unfold.
So where would we start?
Like, what are the first couplethings we need to think about?
Speaker 1 (12:19):
Okay.
Well, when it comes tocharacters, one of the biggest
mistakes I see, not just inromanticism, but people writing
any kind of romance where twocharacters specifically not only
need to fall in love but end uptogether and be happy together
is you'll see a lot of people belike well, I wrote this.
You know the princess.
She's supposed to fall in lovewith the prince from the
neighboring kingdom, but she hasway more chemistry with a thief
.
So now I'm going to, you know,redo my whole outline so that
(12:44):
she falls in love with the thiefand make it make sense.
And these can be happyaccidents and everything.
And there's nothing wrong withyou as a writer if this happens.
But it makes the writingprocess way longer because now
you have to redo your outline,you have to go back to the
drawing board.
Typically, when this happens,it's just because you didn't
craft your characters with theintention of them being well
suited together.
And if you do that from thebeginning, then you don't have
to re-outline and, you know, re-plan and create a whole new
love interest.
(13:05):
So you know, character creationis my favorite part, but if I'm
creating love interest, I addan extra step, so it's not just.
You know what do they look like, you know what's their history,
you know what's their familylife.
I add extra steps of how can Imake them well-suited to be
together.
I have three things that Irecommend people take into
consideration at a minimum, andone is to make them compliments
(13:25):
to one another.
This is especially helpful ifyou want to write opposites
attract, which is typically whatwe see a lot in romance in
general, you know, like thegrumpy sunshine or the golden
retriever and the black cat.
This is where that kind youknow kind of falls in you know
to place.
So basically, what I thinkabout is how could I make them
like two puzzle pieces that fitseamlessly together?
(13:47):
And the goal is to make themmore entertaining as characters
when they're on the pagetogether.
They don't necessarily have tomake each other better people,
especially if you're writing,you know, a villain romance or
something like that.
They just need to be the mostentertaining when they're on the
page together.
That's where sort of theemotional chemistry will come
from and also it'll make readerswant to see them together
(14:07):
because they're fun to readabout on the page.
So I like to think about maybeone character's an extrovert,
the other one's an introvert.
So the extrovert kind of bringsthe introvert out of their
shell and gets them having funand enjoying life, whereas the
introvert provides a calm, youknow, place for the extrovert,
you know, allows them to bevulnerable and have some peace
Just thinking about things likethat.
(14:27):
The next thing that I like toconsider is making them equal,
and a lot of people freak outwhen I say that because they're
like well, it's supposed to be agoddess falling in love with a
farm boy or something like that.
I'm not saying they need to bethe same or they need to be a
goddess falling in love with afarm boy or something like that.
I'm not saying they need to bethe same or they need to be
equally hot or equallyintelligent or equally powerful.
The idea is they need to bringan equal amount of strengths and
(14:49):
an equal amount of weaknessesto the relationship, or I
usually say an equal amount ofbenefits and baggage.
We see a lot of romance stories.
I'm trying not to name specificbooks.
I'm sure people can think ofsome off the top of their head
where one half of the pairing islike you know, god's gift to
the world, and then the otherhalf is just kind of lame, you
(15:11):
know, like just like a dishragof a human being, and writers
sometimes do this so that theycan imagine like.
The reader can imaginethemselves like I'm an average,
average person and I could getthis wonderful babe.
But really readers are justlike what do they see in them?
Like what's right?
Why are they attracted to eachother?
So that's what I mean aboutequality Make sure that they're
both bringing an equal amount ofstrengths and weaknesses to the
(15:32):
relationship of.
This will make the relationshipa lot more believable and it
will make readers you know ableto root for them Exactly.
And then the last thing is togive them common ground.
I talked about opposites.
You know how opposites attract.
That's totally fine.
Characters can be opposites onthe surface, but when it comes
to, like their deep you knowintegrity or their morals or
(15:53):
beliefs, they need to be thesame.
So you typically need to givethem some kind of moment of
vulnerability where they share,you know, a problem in their
life or they share somethingthat they're really passionate
about and the other person'slike oh, I get that, it doesn't.
They don't have to be dealingwith the same thing, but they
need to be able to bond oversomething deeper than just the
surface level stuff.
(16:13):
So that's what I like to dowhen I'm creating what I call a
power couple, a couple thatreaders are going to root for,
to end up together, yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:20):
I love that, and especially because it's not like
you just need to do thesethings because I said so.
It's like there are actualreasons why, if you do these
things, they result in a powercouple that we root for, like
you said.
So just to be clear, because Iknow someone is probably
thinking this do we need to doall three of those things or is
it a pick?
Speaker 1 (16:36):
and choose, I recommend doing all three of
those things, or is it a pickand choose?
I recommend doing all three ofthose things because it's great
if the characters complementeach other, but if one of them
is just amazing and perfect andthe other one's kind of a turd,
readers aren't going to be ableto be like.
Well, at least they're betterwhen they're together.
Because I definitely recommendhaving all three of these things
, yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:56):
Okay, great, Perfect.
So let's pretend we've madethis like really great power.
Couple readers are shippingthem, we're rooting for them.
What's next?
Speaker 1 (17:07):
Well, I mean oh my gosh, this is yeah, you're like,
don't get me started, there's alot of stuff.
I know I'm like how do I reignthis in?
And you know, obviously, in howto Write Romanticy.
I list all the step-by-stepprocess.
But if we're looking at theromance specifically, say that
we've already outlined the story, we've already figured out the
structure.
I like to focus on emotionalintimacy and physical intimacy
(17:29):
and figuring out where.
You know we want to go in thosetwo directions.
A lot of people make the mistakeof only focusing on physical
intimacy, which is great.
If you're writing erotica,that's what erotica is for.
It's all about the sexy times.
But this is romanticism, sothey need to actually fall in
love too.
So you don't want to strictlyfocus on the physical stuff.
(17:49):
The emotional intimacy is whatgets romance readers invested in
the ship, so that's where Ilike to put most of my attention
.
And then, when it's time forspice, then it's like okay, then
I'll dive into that.
But I like to say that there arefive things that you want to
focus on, five types of scenesthat you want to include in the
story in order to breedemotional intimacy.
(18:10):
I won't go into all five ofthem because we will be here for
hours, but the five types ofscenes are friendship, respect,
vulnerability, trust and unity.
My two favorite ones arevulnerability and trust, so I'll
cover those.
Vulnerability is kind of likewhat we already covered.
You need to give yourcharacters a moment where
they're vulnerable together.
I recommend giving eachcharacter their own vulnerable
(18:33):
moment, but basically it'susually the character is sharing
something that they're ashamedabout, sharing something dark
from their past, or sharingsomething that you know they're
struggling with, and the othercharacter needs to be there and
actually you know, empathize andsort of lift them up and you
know, hear them, and usuallythis moment has them thinking
like changing their opinion ofthem, or it breeds sort of an
(18:55):
emotional connection betweenthem.
If they're enemies to lovers,this might be a moment where
they're like, oh, he's not asbad as I thought he was, or
something like that.
And the trust moment this isanother point that sometimes
worries writers, because theyhear trust and they're like well
, my character is a villain andthey're lying and stuff.
I don't mean that they need tobe 100% honest with each other,
because sometimes that doesn'twork in romanticism.
(19:17):
For trust, I like to write whatI call a save-a-life moment.
It could be that one characterliterally saves the other's life
.
It doesn't have to be thatextreme.
Not all books have life ordeath stakes, but ultimately,
what a save-a-life moment is isthat one character needs to put
themselves at risk for the other.
So if you're writing a bookwith low stakes, it could be
(19:41):
that you know, if one characteris up to get in trouble at work
and they think they're going toget fired, their love interest
steps up and takes the blameinstead.
You know, so they're puttingtheir job at risk for the other
person and again it could justbe that one of them literally
saves the other's life and theyput themselves in, you know, in
danger in order to do so.
But having that kind of momentin the book, it really changes
the dynamic between thecharacters, especially in
Romanticy.
Speaker 2 (20:01):
Yeah, and that's such a great way to think about it.
So you said there are fivetypes of scenes you recommend
each character has each type ofscene, and I'm just hearing
listeners thinking like, okay,so that's 10 scenes, and then I
also have to balance the fantasyelements.
So does that mean that thesetype of scenes need to be built
around this trust building, oris it more of, like the trust
building happens in a momentwithin the scene, like how do
(20:23):
you think about that?
Speaker 1 (20:24):
Well, these scenes can overlap.
For example, in my book, theSavior's Champion, the moment of
friendship is the moment ofrespect.
They're one in the same.
So you don't have to have 10types of scenes, you can also
have as many of these as youwant.
If you want to have a millionmoments of friendship, you can
totally do that.
And friendship just essentiallymeans, you know, flirting,
laughing together, bonding, youknow that's.
Another problem we see a lot inromanticism is that the
(20:46):
characters don't seem to likeeach other, and I understand
that if they're enemies first,they're not going to like each
other, but at some point theyneed to like each other and you
just need to show that.
You just need to show them,maybe like poking fun at each
other.
You know that sort of thing.
And and these scenes could be,you know, really small, like a
moment of friendship could justbe a couple lines of dialogue,
(21:06):
yeah, so there's no need to beoverwhelmed by the number of
these because, again, they canoverlap.
They could be really, reallyshort.
But what I like to do is, whileI'm outlining my novel I know
there are pancers out there, sosome people are going to go with
the flow I like to outline.
While I'm outlining, I justlike to, you know, take a look
at the different scenes that Ihave in the different chapters
and make sure that I'm able topinpoint those moments
(21:29):
throughout the book.
And if you're not finding themwithin the outline, then take a
look at the scenes that you'vealready crafted you know scenes
that are, you know, fantasyspecific and see if you can sort
of wedge a little moment inthere.
And most of these moments thatI'm covering, you know,
friendship, respect,vulnerability, trust and unity.
Most of them are dialoguerelated.
So it's usually really easy tokind of wedge a bit of dialogue
(21:51):
into a scene.
Speaker 2 (21:51):
Yeah, I love what you said, too, about it could be a
few sentences, because I know aswriters, we overthink a lot of
stuff, right?
So what I think will be helpfulfor people listening is no, you
don't need to build an entirescene around each of these
things.
You can, if that suits you andyour story, but it can be as
simple as one or two lines, likeJenna just said.
So don't overthink it.
Speaker 1 (22:10):
Right.
And also there are certainscenes that, especially in
fantasy, that just lendthemselves to these types of you
know situations alreadyhappening.
So, for example, in theSavior's Champion, there's a
scene where my main character,tobias, saves another man's life
, which there's nothing romanticabout that.
The other man is not his loveinterest, you know.
He's just saving this dude'slife, but his love interest
(22:33):
witnesses it and that for her isher moment of respect.
She witnesses it and she's like, oh wow, he risked his life to
save someone else.
That's super sexy, you know.
I really respect him for that.
So that was a scene that I hadto include in the story for
non-romantic purposes, but ittotally served a dual purpose
and ended up, you know, being ascene where the main female
(22:54):
character develops respect forTobias.
So yeah, you can have a scenein your book that doesn't seem
romantic at all but it'll servetoward furthering the romance
between the characters.
Speaker 2 (23:03):
Yeah, I love that you said that, because that could
happen when you're outlining,when you're drafting, when
you're editing, and it's justkind of like, how do you use all
the pieces?
You have to give readers whatthey want, which is that
developing chemistry and youknow emotional connection and
things like that Right, but sothat's the intimate part of
their chemistry.
Do you have any tips forwriting like the physical growth
or like the physical?
(23:24):
What do we want to call it arc?
Speaker 1 (23:27):
Yes, I think the very first thing that writers need
to determine is how far they'rewilling to take the physical
element, because some writersthey want to write clean or
sweet fiction and, especially inrom romanticism.
A lot of people think thatmeans their book is not going to
sell.
Your book can still sell if youwrite clean or sweet.
It's totally fine.
I read clean and sweetromanticism all the time.
(23:48):
I see it selling like crazy allthe time.
So don't feel like you have towrite smut and spice in order to
sell a romanticism book.
Just stop freaking out about it.
People are always freaking outabout them.
Like, calm down, it's fine.
Speaker 2 (24:01):
Yeah, I'm going to pause you because I want to say
that again Smut and spice do notequal Romantasy, although
Romantasy can include that, justlike romance can include that.
Speaker 1 (24:11):
So keep going Exactly , and so that's just something.
I emphasize it in the book.
I emphasize it all the time.
It's like, if you don't want towrite that stuff, it's fine,
don't worry about it, but if youdo want to write that stuff,
that's fine too.
You know, you've got todetermine what you're
comfortable with and also whatis best suited for your audience
.
So, for example, if you'rewriting young adult romanticism,
(24:32):
maybe not so much smut, not somuch spice I refer to.
If you do want to include spicein a young adult book, I spice,
I refer to it.
If you do want to include spicein a young adult book, I like to
call it an emotional sex scene,which basically means that
you're not talking about theparts, you're just saying like
their bodies, you know, andtwined, and they, you know, they
felt this deep connection withone another, and you're talking
(24:53):
about how they feel and how thismoment is progressing, the
relationship, and not so muchdescribing genitals.
So that's something that youhave the option for a young
adult, but we don't want to gotoo smutty with that.
But if you're writing adult,you're welcome to smut things up
as much as you want, or you canwrite clean and sweet.
But basically, like I wassaying, you want to make sure
that you pinpoint exactly howfar you're willing to take
(25:16):
things and once you have thatdestination, I like to make sure
I show every little bit ofphysicality that leads up to
that.
So, hands brushing against oneanother, you know, the first
time they embrace, the firsttime they hug, the first time
that they almost kiss, and thensomeone walks into the room and
ruin it, I like to make surethat I show everything leading
(25:36):
up to that, because that's goingto get readers frothing at the
mouth for like, finally, like,let them finally kiss, or
whatever, whatever destinationyou've created, let them finally
have sex.
You know, just make sure thatyou're showing every piece of
intimacy up until that so thatwhen they finally bang, it's
like the big bang, it's veryright, it's very exciting.
Or if you're just leading up toa kiss, when they finally kiss
(25:58):
it's super exciting.
Speaker 2 (25:59):
Yeah, and like.
That's what readers love too.
You know we love the buildingemotional intimacy and physical
intimacy, regardless of how farwe're taking it at the end of
the line.
So I think that's super smartand I know that a lot of writers
sometimes they'll be like Ijust feel like I'm showing the
hands too much or the huggingtoo much, and it's like I don't
(26:20):
know that there's a too much.
Speaker 1 (26:21):
You know, this is what readers like.
Right, If anything, there mightbe a too little, and that's
exactly.
And that's what.
When, like clean and sweetromance writers get a little
nervous, like, oh, I feel likethere's too little physical
intimacy, Again, just handsbrushing against each other is
very exciting for readers, sodon't it's again.
It's fine if you don't want towrite.
You know the sexy times, butyou can't have too much kissing
(26:43):
or too much caressing or toomuch holding.
That like that's what readerswant to read.
Speaker 2 (26:47):
Yeah, and I love the term you said readers are like
frothing for it.
That's exactly how it feels.
Right, right Enough, let's getus to the end.
But okay, so that's great.
So we talked about kind of howto think about the romantic
pairing.
We talked about how to thenhave that romantic pairing go
through this emotional andphysical connection building in
this arc.
Any other things that are liketop of mind before we talk about
(27:09):
series.
Speaker 1 (27:10):
Going back to both physical and emotional intimacy,
I recommend that everyonecreate what I call an intimacy
destination, and this isbasically the biggest moment of
either emotional or physicalintimacy within a book.
So, for example, usually aroundthe climax there's some kind of
grand gesture where the mainrelationship you know reaches a
(27:31):
new level.
That's the intimacy destination.
And typically an intimacydestination.
It doesn't have to be one ofthese things, but it's usually
either a first kiss, a firsttime having sex, a first time
saying I love you or some kindof proposal or something like
that.
So I like to recommend thateveryone create some sort of
intimacy destination, know thatit's going to happen either
(27:53):
right before, during or afterthe climax of the book.
And then everything needs tokind of lead up to that.
And writers who are writing youknow more smutty and spicy kinds
of books that makes themnervous because they're like
well, I don't want to wait untilthe end for them to have sex.
This book is going to be filledwith sex.
That's totally fine.
The intimacy destination couldbe them finally saying I love
(28:14):
you.
They could be, you know,knocking boots, the whole you
know book, and then at theintimacy destination they
realize I'm in love with thisperson.
It's more than just a physicalthing.
Or it could be that they werejust sort of having like, very
like, dirty, raunchy sex thewhole book, and then now, at the
intimacy destination, it'stheir first time making love or
something like that.
Or, you know, it could be amarriage proposal.
So don't think that you have tocut down on the smut if that's
(28:36):
the route you're going.
The intimacy destination isjust a new level of physical or
emotional intimacy between thecharacters.
Speaker 2 (28:43):
Yeah, it's kind of like the stakes have been raised
and maybe slightly changed,right, and, as you were saying,
all that I just kept thinking ofvolume dials, because it's like
you have the emotional layer toplay with, you have the
physical layer to play with andthen how you combine those two
things creates a lot ofdifferent results.
So I think that's super cool,and I know that when listeners
are hearing you talk about this,they're going to be like, oh my
(29:03):
gosh, we need to get this bookto hear all these little
shortcuts and things.
So we'll talk about that later.
But I know the other thing youwanted to mention was how to
pace this over a series, becausethat's a common question, right
?
Speaker 1 (29:21):
Exactly, I think.
When it comes to pacing, thefirst thing I like to mention is
every single book within theseries needs to have a new
intimacy destination, and thatmakes a lot of readers or a lot
of writers nervous becausethey're like well, where else is
there to go?
That's why you kind of want tosort of spread out the different
levels of intimacy.
So maybe their first kiss isthe intimacy destination in book
one.
The first time they say I loveyou is the intimacy destination
(29:41):
in book two.
The first time they have sex isthe intimacy destination in
book three.
You can pace it out however youplease, but be thinking about
that while you're writing bookone, Because if you have them,
you know, hit every single baseand get married in book one.
You don't have a lot of room togrow in book two, three, four.
So be thinking about that rightfrom the start.
(30:02):
Additionally, we have to takeinto consideration the fact that
in different books in a series,you know they might not be
happy together.
They might end book one hatingeach other.
You know we see a lot ofromanticist books where one
character betrays the other inthe first book, so they hate
each other by the end.
And the character who did thebad thing is going to try and
win their partner back in booktwo.
(30:23):
So it could be that, you know,book one ends kind of tragically
or sadly, and the intimacydestination in book two is them
getting back together, you know,and them reestablishing their
connection.
So that's definitely somethingto take into consideration.
It's also worth noting that wesee a lot of romanticist books
where we sort of have the loveinterest fake out, where the
(30:44):
main character is in love with,you know, person A, and then
they meet person B in book twoand it, you know, and we have a
little bit of a love triangle.
Who will they choose?
And then maybe person A in bookthree betrays them, and so now
it's very obvious we're going togo with person B, something
like that.
So again, this is somethingthat I would recommend figuring
(31:04):
out before you write book one orwhile you're writing book one,
because you don't want to writeyourself into a corner and now
you have nowhere to go.
Speaker 2 (31:14):
Yeah, and I already can imagine you're going to say
like it doesn't have to beperfect, it's just a guideline
of you know where do you wantthis to go, and it can change,
but it's better than ending upin a corner, like you said, and
it's hard, exactly.
Speaker 1 (31:23):
Exactly Everything is open to change.
That's another thing peopleworry about.
They're what if I veer from myoutline?
I'm like everyone veers fromtheir outline.
Yeah, that's very normal.
That's just a part of thewriting process.
It's fine.
It's a guide.
It's not set in stone.
So it's fine if you veer.
It's just here to kind of helpgive you a direction.
Speaker 2 (31:42):
Yeah, I love that so much.
Okay, so we talked about againcharacters, we talked about
writing in a series, and we can,of course, go into more detail
if listeners get your book.
So let's talk about where do weget that?
I know you have a pre-orderbonus.
Tell us about that.
Give us all the juicy details.
Speaker 1 (31:58):
So right now it's available for pre-order all over
the place.
I have a link that you canshare.
But, yeah, you can pre-order itpretty much everywhere.
And, in terms of the pre-orderbonus, if you pre-order the book
, you have the opportunity toreceive a free digital workbook.
That is sort of thestep-by-step process of creating
the power couple.
So everything we discussedabout compliments and common
ground and things like that,it's a little guidebook that
(32:21):
helps you create that, so youcan build the character profile
but also, you know, build thesecharacters side by side.
We've got extra pages just incase you're writing a thruple or
a polycule.
So, yeah, as soon as youdownload the digital workbook,
you can start working in it.
You don't have to wait untilOctober 21st for you to be able
to use it, and I've already hada lot of people talk to me
saying I really love thisworkbook.
I've already figured out mycharacter, so it's really
(32:42):
exciting.
Speaker 2 (32:42):
Yeah, I love it and I love thinking about each
character individually andcouple together.
I think that's a super smartway to go about it, so we will
put all the links to that in theshow notes, as well as where to
find you on your YouTube andall the fun things like that.
Any last like parting words ofwisdom, parting advice,
inspiration that you want toshare with listeners.
Speaker 1 (33:02):
Yeah, sure, I know we covered a lot of rules and
stuff like that in this episode.
I think the number one thing tokeep in mind is, first of all,
these rules are just to kind of.
They're not actual rules.
You can ultimately do whateveryou want.
This is just to try and helpyou, you know, secure an
audience who will really beobsessed with these characters,
obsessed with this book.
(33:22):
That's the idea is just tryingto create a really loyal
audience who they're just inlove with the romance that
you've created.
But the number one thing I liketo remind people is this is
supposed to be fun.
You know we write romanticybecause it's fun and it's
exciting.
It's the best of both worlds.
You have the magic and you knowcreatures of fantasy, but then
you also have like the swoonystuff of romance.
(33:44):
Like, just remind yourself,this is supposed to be fun.
So try not to stress out toomuch.
At the end of the day, it's abook about, like, dragons and
kissing.
Okay, it's not that deep and Idon't mean that in, you know,
like a diminishing way.
Obviously, I write the genre.
I love the genre.
There's depth to the charactersand everything like that.
But I just mean the process issupposed to be fun.
So if you're not enjoying it, Imean obviously there will be
(34:05):
moments where you know that areless fun to write.
There are going to be lulls inthe process, but ultimately the
idea is to write something thatyou're excited about.
Okay, so if you're taking ittoo seriously, you're doing it
wrong.
Speaker 2 (34:17):
Yeah, and that's what tools like Jenna's book and her
YouTube channel and thispodcast ideally help you have
more fun while doing it.
So we both hope you're havingso much fun, and thank you,
jenna, for coming on the show.
I'm so excited to get a copy ofyour new book and share it with
everybody.
Speaker 1 (34:31):
Thank you so much for having me.
It was an absolute blast.
Speaker 2 (34:34):
All right, so that's it for this episode of the
Fiction Writing Made Easypodcast.
Head over to savannagilbocomforward slash podcast for the
complete show notes, includingthe resources I mentioned today,
as well as bonus materials tohelp you implement what you've
learned, and if you're ready toget more personalized guidance
for your specific writing stage,whether you're just starting
(34:55):
out, stuck somewhere in themiddle of a draft, drowning in
revisions, or getting ready topublish, take my free 30-second
quiz at savannahgilbocom forwardslash quiz.
You'll get a customized podcastplaylist that'll meet you right
where you're at and help youget to your next big milestone.
Last but not least, at and helpyou get to your next big
milestone.
Last but not least, make sureto follow this podcast in your
podcast player of choice,because I'll be back next week
(35:15):
with another episode full ofactionable tips, tools and
strategies to help you become abetter writer.
Until then, happy writing.
So romanticism is the big trending genre right now
and there are a lot of heavyhitters in the genre who are
doing really well and justabsolutely killing it with sales
and it's very tempting to copyand paste what they're doing and
it's totally fine if you wantto ride certain trends.
It's totally fine if you wantto write to market.
You know that's even preferredin many cases.
But you can put your own uniquespin on a trend.
(00:23):
Enemies to Lovers is huge rightnow.
You can write Enemies to Loversyour own way.
You don't have to regurgitatewhat someone else has already
done.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
Welcome to the Fiction Writing Made Easy
podcast.
My name is Savannah Gilbo andI'm here to help you write a
story that works.
I want to prove to you thatwriting a novel doesn't have to
be overwhelming, so each week,I'll bring you a brand new
episode with simple, actionableand step-by-step strategies that
you can implement in yourwriting right away.
So, whether you're brand new towriting or more of a seasoned
(00:55):
author looking to improve yourcraft, this podcast is for you.
So pick up a pen and let's getstarted.
If you've ever wondered how tobalance magic and romance in
your writing, or what exactlymakes a book romantic-y versus
just fantasy with a romanticsubplot, then this episode is
for you.
Today, I'm joined by JennaMaresi, an award-winning
(01:15):
romantic-y author, writing craftexpert and YouTube sensation.
Jenna's first book in the Saviorseries, the Savior's Champion,
was voted one of the best booksof all time by Book Depository,
and her writing craft book, shutUp and Write.
The Book has helped thousandsof writers take their stories to
the next level.
Now Jenna's back with hersecond writing craft book, how
(01:36):
to Write Romanticy, whichreleased this October, and trust
me, it's packed with everythingyou need to create
unforgettable characters,irresistible romantic pairings
and stories that readers willobsess over.
In this episode, jenna'sbreaking down her three-part
framework for crafting powercouples, aka those romantic
pairings that feel perfectlysuited for each other, and she's
(01:57):
sharing the five types ofscenes that you need to build
emotional intimacy between yourcharacters.
Plus, we talk about how to pacea romantic arc across an entire
series without writing yourselfinto a corner.
Whether you're writing clean andsweet romanticism or planning
to turn up the heat, thisepisode is full of practical
strategies and creativeinspiration.
So grab a notebook, because youwill want to take notes, and
(02:19):
let's dive right into myconversation with Jenna Maresi.
Hi, jenna, welcome to theFiction Writing Made Easy
podcast.
I would love for you, in yourown words, to tell my audience
who you are, what you do andthings like that.
Speaker 1 (02:30):
Thank you so much for having me.
It is a huge honor to be here.
My name is Jenna Maresi.
I am an award-winning andAmazon bestselling author of
Romantasy.
As well as writing craft books,I'm also a YouTuber over on the
channel writing with JennaMoreci.
So if you need any writingadvice and want a hefty dose of
sarcasm and humor alongside it,that's what I do over on my
(02:50):
channel.
Speaker 2 (02:51):
Yeah, I love that, and so we're here to celebrate
your new book that's coming out,which is called how to Write
Romanticy.
And so what inspired you tocreate a guide about this topic?
Speaker 1 (03:01):
Actually, this was something I, when it comes to
writing craft books, I basicallyhave a list of topics that I
want to cover, because I coverso much on my channel and after
years of, you know, having thisYouTube channel, people were
like when are you going torelease a book about it?
So first I really shut up andwrite the book, which is
basically just an overview, likea step-by-step guide, of the
overall writing process, and Ihad a list of other topics that
(03:22):
I wanted to cover eventually.
But what had happened wasactually an editor over at 10
Speed Press, which is an imprintof Penguin Random House,
reached out to me and they saidyou know, romantasy is really
huge right now and you know, wesee, you know, you give writing
advice.
You, you know, release, shut Upand Write the Book.
It was very successful.
You write Romantasy yourself.
You know, the Savior series,which is my Romantasy series, is
(03:44):
very successful.
We were wondering if you wantedto work with us on writing a
Romantasy guide.
So it had already been on mylist, but it wasn't like the
next topic I was going to coverand I was still deciding what
the next topic would be.
And then I got this email andI'm like, well, they decided for
me, you know.
So, you know, I ended upsigning with 10 Speed Press and
everything, and they kind ofmade the decision easy for me
(04:05):
because I didn't know where togo.
And I'm like, okay, well, thisopportunity fell in my lap.
Speaker 2 (04:09):
I'm gonna take it.
That's right.
The universe is like hint, hint, nudge, nudge.
We need to get this book, Ilove that, and so, okay, let's
back up to.
Let's pretend we're a brand newwriter or we're someone who's
like maybe I write fantasy,maybe I write romance, maybe I
want to start writing romantasy.
How do you define romantasy asa genre?
(04:30):
What are the differencesbetween just fantasy or just
romance?
Talk to me about that.
Speaker 1 (04:34):
This is a great question.
I see there's a lot ofconfusion online about it.
I see people saying thatromantasy is just fantasy with a
romantic subplot.
That is not true.
If you were to release afantasy novel with a romantic
subplot and call it romantasy,you will just get dive-bombed
with one-star reviews.
So just to clear the air,romantasy is just a book that's
(04:55):
half fantasy, half romance.
So it helps to understand whatconstitutes fantasy and romance.
Fantasy is a speculative fictionthat either takes place in a
fictional, fantastical world orit contains magic and magical
creatures, or both.
And then romance is a storythat follows two or more people
falling in love.
Something threatens their lovebut they defy you know the odds
(05:18):
and they end up living happilyever after or happy for now.
Just to clarify it is not aromance if they don't end up
happy together at the end.
That is a rule of the genre.
I'm sure people can think oflots of romantic stories that
end tragically, like, forexample, romeo and Juliet.
A story can be romantic and notbe a romance.
So Romeo and Juliet is actuallydefined as a tragedy, or
(05:42):
sometimes a romantic tragedy.
But if you want the book to belabeled a romance, it has to end
happily.
So Romanticy is just acombination of fantasy and
romance.
You've kind of got half andhalf within the genre and
basically what we have is two ormore people who are falling in
love, but something, usuallyfantastical, is threatening
(06:04):
their love.
So some kind of you know,monster or villain, or wars
between fantasy, you know worldsor realms is threatening their
love, but by the end they end upbeing happy together or, you
know, happily ever after.
Speaker 2 (06:18):
Yeah, and that could be correct me if I'm wrong but
for the end of a book or the endof a series.
Speaker 1 (06:21):
The end of a series.
It's totally fine, and this isanother question a lot of
writers have.
They're like well, I want themto be broken up at the end of
the first book.
That's totally fine.
You can have them estrangedmid-series, you could have one
of them thinking the other isdead.
It's totally fine if bookswithin the series end unhappily,
but by the end of the seriesthey need to be together and in
(06:42):
love and everything's justrainbows and sunshine.
Speaker 2 (06:45):
And I think that's so important to note because we do
want to deliver on those genreexpectations.
And you know, this is differentthan just straight up romance,
where we would expect that atthe end of a book, at each book,
there needs to be that happilyever after or happily for now,
and then in a fantasy with aromantic subplot.
That's very different too.
So I love that you're kind ofsaying it's 50-50.
(07:06):
And then the next obviousquestion is like well, how do we
balance that?
Because that feels a littlehard right, it's different than
just saying like I'm writing,let's say, a crime story with a
romance subplot or whatever.
It's like no, these need tocarry equal weight.
How do we do that?
Speaker 1 (07:20):
Well, I think a lot of it comes down to the fantasy
is usually represented in theworld that the characters are
living in.
Even if you're writing acontemporary romanticist that
takes place in like SanFrancisco or Italy, there's
usually San Francisco is nowfilled with, you know, magicians
or unicorns or things like that.
So that would be right, exactly.
So that would be what we wouldconsider like world building
(07:41):
elements.
So usually the world and theactual dangers that the
characters are facing are thefantasy elements.
So usually the world and theactual dangers that the
characters are facing are thefantasy elements.
And then when it comes to theinternal conflicts, those are
usually of the romantic variety.
So that's a good way to balancethings.
The easiest way for me is, whileI'm writing, I look at every
single chapter and I make suredid the plot get moved forward?
And when I say the plot, Iusually mean the romance between
(08:04):
the characters.
So if you have a chapter wherenothing is happening to move the
romantic story forward, even ifit's just the tiniest thing,
because sometimes the loveinterests aren't even in the
same chapter together butsomething might happen to
character A that we know willhave a direct effect on the
romance later on in the story.
So, taking a look at everychapter and thinking, how did
(08:27):
this move the romance forward?
Because usually fantasy isgoing to be in every chapter.
It's because you're writing ina fantastical world, you know,
and people are sword fighting oryou know fighting with, you
know magic and wands.
So I like to look at theromance element and think, okay,
did this move the romanceforward in any way?
Even if they're not in thechapter together, consequences
(08:47):
will happen that will affect thelove story as a whole.
Speaker 2 (08:49):
Yes, and I think that's so important to kind of
think about balance that way.
And how does the romantic pieceof it affect the you know, the
fantasy aspect?
How does the fantasy aspect inthose stakes affect the romantic
stakes and really like theyshould all play together and
affect each other?
Right, that's how we get that50-50.
Exactly, and so just real quick, I wasn't planning to ask you
(09:10):
this, but is there like one ortwo big mistakes that people
make when they try to blendthese two things together?
Speaker 1 (09:16):
Well, the biggest mistake is writing a romantic
subplot and then calling itromantic.
That's one that I see a lot andit's also tough because some
writers they're just trying tomarket their book and they know
it's a subplot, but they seethat Romantasy is so big they're
like I'm going to call it aRomantasy and I'll reach more
readers and they're justshooting themselves in the foot.
So, honestly, that is thebiggest mistake.
Also, another big mistake andI'm trying to think of a tactful
(09:39):
way towards this Romantasy isthe big trending genre right now
and there are a lot of heavyhitters in the genre who are
doing really well and justabsolutely killing it with sales
.
And it's very tempting to copyand paste what they're doing.
And it's totally fine if youwant to ride certain trends.
It's totally fine if you wantto write to market.
You know that's even preferredin many cases.
(10:01):
But you can put your own uniquespin on a trend.
Enemies to Lovers is huge rightnow.
You can write Enemies to Loversyour own way.
You don't have to regurgitatewhat someone else has already
done.
And another big popular trendright now is Shadow Daddies,
which is basically like amorally gray guy who's got dark
hair and is kind of broody.
There's a certain blueprintthat is very specific that we
(10:23):
see being churned out over andover again with shadow daddies,
and I was actually just speakingwith another Romantasy author
recently who she writes shadowdaddies but hers are unique to
her.
She's able to put her own spinon them.
If you want to write a shadowdaddy, you totally can, but do
that.
Make it unique, your own uniquecharacter.
You don't have to copy andpaste what has already been done
in order to be popular.
(10:44):
You can still write a trend,but give it your own unique
voice.
Speaker 2 (10:47):
Right.
I think that's so important too, because it's easy to get hung
up on things like that and say,shadow daddy or enemies to
lovers equals romanticism.
It's like, no, that's just kindof the way the characters are
showing up and you can includethat, but we still need to know
what's their purpose.
What are they doing here, howdo they add to your story and
how are they yours Exactly?
I think those are two greatthings to highlight of.
Let's just be careful we don'tdo these things.
Speaker 1 (11:09):
Right, and I think it's also important to note.
You know, I have a successfulromantic series.
It's not enemies to lovers.
In the main male characterisn't a shadow daddy, if
anything.
I did kind of a reverse wherewe see a lot of bad boy and good
girl.
So I did a bad girl and a goodboy, you know.
So just saying like sometimespeople see these trends and
they're like, oh crap, that'snot what I'm writing.
(11:30):
It's fine, you don't.
You don't have to follow thetrends to be successful, and if
you do want to follow the trends, that's fine too.
Speaker 2 (11:37):
Just add your own unique spin to it, yeah, and I
think what a fun opportunity forus creative people right Like
how do we add our own spin tosomething like that and how do
we rise to that challenge?
Speaker 1 (11:50):
So right, very cool, but for me that's that's the fun
part, you know making it yourown.
So yeah, I don't.
I don't see the appeal and justregurgitating what's already
been done.
Speaker 2 (11:55):
Yeah, I think so too, and I think a lot of listeners
will probably agree like okay,challenge accepted, how do I do
this?
But speaking of characters, Iknow we're going to talk about
this a lot today, because thatis really what's at the heart of
romantasy, right?
It's like we want to see thatromantic relationship unfold.
So where would we start?
Like, what are the first couplethings we need to think about?
Speaker 1 (12:19):
Okay.
Well, when it comes tocharacters, one of the biggest
mistakes I see, not just inromanticism, but people writing
any kind of romance where twocharacters specifically not only
need to fall in love but end uptogether and be happy together
is you'll see a lot of people belike well, I wrote this.
You know the princess.
She's supposed to fall in lovewith the prince from the
neighboring kingdom, but she hasway more chemistry with a thief
.
So now I'm going to, you know,redo my whole outline so that
(12:44):
she falls in love with the thiefand make it make sense.
And these can be happyaccidents and everything.
And there's nothing wrong withyou as a writer if this happens.
But it makes the writingprocess way longer because now
you have to redo your outline,you have to go back to the
drawing board.
Typically, when this happens,it's just because you didn't
craft your characters with theintention of them being well
suited together.
And if you do that from thebeginning, then you don't have
to re-outline and, you know, re-plan and create a whole new
love interest.
(13:05):
So you know, character creationis my favorite part, but if I'm
creating love interest, I addan extra step, so it's not just.
You know what do they look like, you know what's their history,
you know what's their familylife.
I add extra steps of how can Imake them well-suited to be
together.
I have three things that Irecommend people take into
consideration at a minimum, andone is to make them compliments
(13:25):
to one another.
This is especially helpful ifyou want to write opposites
attract, which is typically whatwe see a lot in romance in
general, you know, like thegrumpy sunshine or the golden
retriever and the black cat.
This is where that kind youknow kind of falls in you know
to place.
So basically, what I thinkabout is how could I make them
like two puzzle pieces that fitseamlessly together?
(13:47):
And the goal is to make themmore entertaining as characters
when they're on the pagetogether.
They don't necessarily have tomake each other better people,
especially if you're writing,you know, a villain romance or
something like that.
They just need to be the mostentertaining when they're on the
page together.
That's where sort of theemotional chemistry will come
from and also it'll make readerswant to see them together
(14:07):
because they're fun to readabout on the page.
So I like to think about maybeone character's an extrovert,
the other one's an introvert.
So the extrovert kind of bringsthe introvert out of their
shell and gets them having funand enjoying life, whereas the
introvert provides a calm, youknow, place for the extrovert,
you know, allows them to bevulnerable and have some peace
Just thinking about things likethat.
(14:27):
The next thing that I like toconsider is making them equal,
and a lot of people freak outwhen I say that because they're
like well, it's supposed to be agoddess falling in love with a
farm boy or something like that.
I'm not saying they need to bethe same or they need to be a
goddess falling in love with afarm boy or something like that.
I'm not saying they need to bethe same or they need to be
equally hot or equallyintelligent or equally powerful.
The idea is they need to bringan equal amount of strengths and
(14:49):
an equal amount of weaknessesto the relationship, or I
usually say an equal amount ofbenefits and baggage.
We see a lot of romance stories.
I'm trying not to name specificbooks.
I'm sure people can think ofsome off the top of their head
where one half of the pairing islike you know, god's gift to
the world, and then the otherhalf is just kind of lame, you
(15:11):
know, like just like a dishragof a human being, and writers
sometimes do this so that theycan imagine like.
The reader can imaginethemselves like I'm an average,
average person and I could getthis wonderful babe.
But really readers are justlike what do they see in them?
Like what's right?
Why are they attracted to eachother?
So that's what I mean aboutequality Make sure that they're
both bringing an equal amount ofstrengths and weaknesses to the
(15:32):
relationship of.
This will make the relationshipa lot more believable and it
will make readers you know ableto root for them Exactly.
And then the last thing is togive them common ground.
I talked about opposites.
You know how opposites attract.
That's totally fine.
Characters can be opposites onthe surface, but when it comes
to, like their deep you knowintegrity or their morals or
(15:53):
beliefs, they need to be thesame.
So you typically need to givethem some kind of moment of
vulnerability where they share,you know, a problem in their
life or they share somethingthat they're really passionate
about and the other person'slike oh, I get that, it doesn't.
They don't have to be dealingwith the same thing, but they
need to be able to bond oversomething deeper than just the
surface level stuff.
(16:13):
So that's what I like to dowhen I'm creating what I call a
power couple, a couple thatreaders are going to root for,
to end up together, yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:20):
I love that, and especially because it's not like
you just need to do thesethings because I said so.
It's like there are actualreasons why, if you do these
things, they result in a powercouple that we root for, like
you said.
So just to be clear, because Iknow someone is probably
thinking this do we need to doall three of those things or is
it a pick?
Speaker 1 (16:36):
and choose, I recommend doing all three of
those things, or is it a pickand choose?
I recommend doing all three ofthose things because it's great
if the characters complementeach other, but if one of them
is just amazing and perfect andthe other one's kind of a turd,
readers aren't going to be ableto be like.
Well, at least they're betterwhen they're together.
Because I definitely recommendhaving all three of these things
, yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:56):
Okay, great, Perfect.
So let's pretend we've madethis like really great power.
Couple readers are shippingthem, we're rooting for them.
What's next?
Speaker 1 (17:07):
Well, I mean oh my gosh, this is yeah, you're like,
don't get me started, there's alot of stuff.
I know I'm like how do I reignthis in?
And you know, obviously, in howto Write Romanticy.
I list all the step-by-stepprocess.
But if we're looking at theromance specifically, say that
we've already outlined the story, we've already figured out the
structure.
I like to focus on emotionalintimacy and physical intimacy
(17:29):
and figuring out where.
You know we want to go in thosetwo directions.
A lot of people make the mistakeof only focusing on physical
intimacy, which is great.
If you're writing erotica,that's what erotica is for.
It's all about the sexy times.
But this is romanticism, sothey need to actually fall in
love too.
So you don't want to strictlyfocus on the physical stuff.
(17:49):
The emotional intimacy is whatgets romance readers invested in
the ship, so that's where Ilike to put most of my attention
.
And then, when it's time forspice, then it's like okay, then
I'll dive into that.
But I like to say that there arefive things that you want to
focus on, five types of scenesthat you want to include in the
story in order to breedemotional intimacy.
(18:10):
I won't go into all five ofthem because we will be here for
hours, but the five types ofscenes are friendship, respect,
vulnerability, trust and unity.
My two favorite ones arevulnerability and trust, so I'll
cover those.
Vulnerability is kind of likewhat we already covered.
You need to give yourcharacters a moment where
they're vulnerable together.
I recommend giving eachcharacter their own vulnerable
(18:33):
moment, but basically it'susually the character is sharing
something that they're ashamedabout, sharing something dark
from their past, or sharingsomething that you know they're
struggling with, and the othercharacter needs to be there and
actually you know, empathize andsort of lift them up and you
know, hear them, and usuallythis moment has them thinking
like changing their opinion ofthem, or it breeds sort of an
(18:55):
emotional connection betweenthem.
If they're enemies to lovers,this might be a moment where
they're like, oh, he's not asbad as I thought he was, or
something like that.
And the trust moment this isanother point that sometimes
worries writers, because theyhear trust and they're like well
, my character is a villain andthey're lying and stuff.
I don't mean that they need tobe 100% honest with each other,
because sometimes that doesn'twork in romanticism.
(19:17):
For trust, I like to write whatI call a save-a-life moment.
It could be that one characterliterally saves the other's life
.
It doesn't have to be thatextreme.
Not all books have life ordeath stakes, but ultimately,
what a save-a-life moment is isthat one character needs to put
themselves at risk for the other.
So if you're writing a bookwith low stakes, it could be
(19:41):
that you know, if one characteris up to get in trouble at work
and they think they're going toget fired, their love interest
steps up and takes the blameinstead.
You know, so they're puttingtheir job at risk for the other
person and again it could justbe that one of them literally
saves the other's life and theyput themselves in, you know, in
danger in order to do so.
But having that kind of momentin the book, it really changes
the dynamic between thecharacters, especially in
Romanticy.
Speaker 2 (20:01):
Yeah, and that's such a great way to think about it.
So you said there are fivetypes of scenes you recommend
each character has each type ofscene, and I'm just hearing
listeners thinking like, okay,so that's 10 scenes, and then I
also have to balance the fantasyelements.
So does that mean that thesetype of scenes need to be built
around this trust building, oris it more of, like the trust
building happens in a momentwithin the scene, like how do
(20:23):
you think about that?
Speaker 1 (20:24):
Well, these scenes can overlap.
For example, in my book, theSavior's Champion, the moment of
friendship is the moment ofrespect.
They're one in the same.
So you don't have to have 10types of scenes, you can also
have as many of these as youwant.
If you want to have a millionmoments of friendship, you can
totally do that.
And friendship just essentiallymeans, you know, flirting,
laughing together, bonding, youknow that's.
Another problem we see a lot inromanticism is that the
(20:46):
characters don't seem to likeeach other, and I understand
that if they're enemies first,they're not going to like each
other, but at some point theyneed to like each other and you
just need to show that.
You just need to show them,maybe like poking fun at each
other.
You know that sort of thing.
And and these scenes could be,you know, really small, like a
moment of friendship could justbe a couple lines of dialogue,
(21:06):
yeah, so there's no need to beoverwhelmed by the number of
these because, again, they canoverlap.
They could be really, reallyshort.
But what I like to do is, whileI'm outlining my novel I know
there are pancers out there, sosome people are going to go with
the flow I like to outline.
While I'm outlining, I justlike to, you know, take a look
at the different scenes that Ihave in the different chapters
and make sure that I'm able topinpoint those moments
(21:29):
throughout the book.
And if you're not finding themwithin the outline, then take a
look at the scenes that you'vealready crafted you know scenes
that are, you know, fantasyspecific and see if you can sort
of wedge a little moment inthere.
And most of these moments thatI'm covering, you know,
friendship, respect,vulnerability, trust and unity.
Most of them are dialoguerelated.
So it's usually really easy tokind of wedge a bit of dialogue
(21:51):
into a scene.
Speaker 2 (21:51):
Yeah, I love what you said, too, about it could be a
few sentences, because I know aswriters, we overthink a lot of
stuff, right?
So what I think will be helpfulfor people listening is no, you
don't need to build an entirescene around each of these
things.
You can, if that suits you andyour story, but it can be as
simple as one or two lines, likeJenna just said.
So don't overthink it.
Speaker 1 (22:10):
Right.
And also there are certainscenes that, especially in
fantasy, that just lendthemselves to these types of you
know situations alreadyhappening.
So, for example, in theSavior's Champion, there's a
scene where my main character,tobias, saves another man's life
, which there's nothing romanticabout that.
The other man is not his loveinterest, you know.
He's just saving this dude'slife, but his love interest
(22:33):
witnesses it and that for her isher moment of respect.
She witnesses it and she's like, oh wow, he risked his life to
save someone else.
That's super sexy, you know.
I really respect him for that.
So that was a scene that I hadto include in the story for
non-romantic purposes, but ittotally served a dual purpose
and ended up, you know, being ascene where the main female
(22:54):
character develops respect forTobias.
So yeah, you can have a scenein your book that doesn't seem
romantic at all but it'll servetoward furthering the romance
between the characters.
Speaker 2 (23:03):
Yeah, I love that you said that, because that could
happen when you're outlining,when you're drafting, when
you're editing, and it's justkind of like, how do you use all
the pieces?
You have to give readers whatthey want, which is that
developing chemistry and youknow emotional connection and
things like that Right, but sothat's the intimate part of
their chemistry.
Do you have any tips forwriting like the physical growth
or like the physical?
(23:24):
What do we want to call it arc?
Speaker 1 (23:27):
Yes, I think the very first thing that writers need
to determine is how far they'rewilling to take the physical
element, because some writersthey want to write clean or
sweet fiction and, especially inrom romanticism.
A lot of people think thatmeans their book is not going to
sell.
Your book can still sell if youwrite clean or sweet.
It's totally fine.
I read clean and sweetromanticism all the time.
(23:48):
I see it selling like crazy allthe time.
So don't feel like you have towrite smut and spice in order to
sell a romanticism book.
Just stop freaking out about it.
People are always freaking outabout them.
Like, calm down, it's fine.
Speaker 2 (24:01):
Yeah, I'm going to pause you because I want to say
that again Smut and spice do notequal Romantasy, although
Romantasy can include that, justlike romance can include that.
Speaker 1 (24:11):
So keep going Exactly , and so that's just something.
I emphasize it in the book.
I emphasize it all the time.
It's like, if you don't want towrite that stuff, it's fine,
don't worry about it, but if youdo want to write that stuff,
that's fine too.
You know, you've got todetermine what you're
comfortable with and also whatis best suited for your audience
.
So, for example, if you'rewriting young adult romanticism,
(24:32):
maybe not so much smut, not somuch spice I refer to.
If you do want to include spicein a young adult book, I spice,
I refer to it.
If you do want to include spicein a young adult book, I like to
call it an emotional sex scene,which basically means that
you're not talking about theparts, you're just saying like
their bodies, you know, andtwined, and they, you know, they
felt this deep connection withone another, and you're talking
(24:53):
about how they feel and how thismoment is progressing, the
relationship, and not so muchdescribing genitals.
So that's something that youhave the option for a young
adult, but we don't want to gotoo smutty with that.
But if you're writing adult,you're welcome to smut things up
as much as you want, or you canwrite clean and sweet.
But basically, like I wassaying, you want to make sure
that you pinpoint exactly howfar you're willing to take
(25:16):
things and once you have thatdestination, I like to make sure
I show every little bit ofphysicality that leads up to
that.
So, hands brushing against oneanother, you know, the first
time they embrace, the firsttime they hug, the first time
that they almost kiss, and thensomeone walks into the room and
ruin it, I like to make surethat I show everything leading
(25:36):
up to that, because that's goingto get readers frothing at the
mouth for like, finally, like,let them finally kiss, or
whatever, whatever destinationyou've created, let them finally
have sex.
You know, just make sure thatyou're showing every piece of
intimacy up until that so thatwhen they finally bang, it's
like the big bang, it's veryright, it's very exciting.
Or if you're just leading up toa kiss, when they finally kiss
(25:58):
it's super exciting.
Speaker 2 (25:59):
Yeah, and like.
That's what readers love too.
You know we love the buildingemotional intimacy and physical
intimacy, regardless of how farwe're taking it at the end of
the line.
So I think that's super smartand I know that a lot of writers
sometimes they'll be like Ijust feel like I'm showing the
hands too much or the huggingtoo much, and it's like I don't
(26:20):
know that there's a too much.
Speaker 1 (26:21):
You know, this is what readers like.
Right, If anything, there mightbe a too little, and that's
exactly.
And that's what.
When, like clean and sweetromance writers get a little
nervous, like, oh, I feel likethere's too little physical
intimacy, Again, just handsbrushing against each other is
very exciting for readers, sodon't it's again.
It's fine if you don't want towrite.
You know the sexy times, butyou can't have too much kissing
(26:43):
or too much caressing or toomuch holding.
That like that's what readerswant to read.
Speaker 2 (26:47):
Yeah, and I love the term you said readers are like
frothing for it.
That's exactly how it feels.
Right, right Enough, let's getus to the end.
But okay, so that's great.
So we talked about kind of howto think about the romantic
pairing.
We talked about how to thenhave that romantic pairing go
through this emotional andphysical connection building in
this arc.
Any other things that are liketop of mind before we talk about
(27:09):
series.
Speaker 1 (27:10):
Going back to both physical and emotional intimacy,
I recommend that everyonecreate what I call an intimacy
destination, and this isbasically the biggest moment of
either emotional or physicalintimacy within a book.
So, for example, usually aroundthe climax there's some kind of
grand gesture where the mainrelationship you know reaches a
(27:31):
new level.
That's the intimacy destination.
And typically an intimacydestination.
It doesn't have to be one ofthese things, but it's usually
either a first kiss, a firsttime having sex, a first time
saying I love you or some kindof proposal or something like
that.
So I like to recommend thateveryone create some sort of
intimacy destination, know thatit's going to happen either
(27:53):
right before, during or afterthe climax of the book.
And then everything needs tokind of lead up to that.
And writers who are writing youknow more smutty and spicy kinds
of books that makes themnervous because they're like
well, I don't want to wait untilthe end for them to have sex.
This book is going to be filledwith sex.
That's totally fine.
The intimacy destination couldbe them finally saying I love
(28:14):
you.
They could be, you know,knocking boots, the whole you
know book, and then at theintimacy destination they
realize I'm in love with thisperson.
It's more than just a physicalthing.
Or it could be that they werejust sort of having like, very
like, dirty, raunchy sex thewhole book, and then now, at the
intimacy destination, it'stheir first time making love or
something like that.
Or, you know, it could be amarriage proposal.
So don't think that you have tocut down on the smut if that's
(28:36):
the route you're going.
The intimacy destination isjust a new level of physical or
emotional intimacy between thecharacters.
Speaker 2 (28:43):
Yeah, it's kind of like the stakes have been raised
and maybe slightly changed,right, and, as you were saying,
all that I just kept thinking ofvolume dials, because it's like
you have the emotional layer toplay with, you have the
physical layer to play with andthen how you combine those two
things creates a lot ofdifferent results.
So I think that's super cool,and I know that when listeners
are hearing you talk about this,they're going to be like, oh my
(29:03):
gosh, we need to get this bookto hear all these little
shortcuts and things.
So we'll talk about that later.
But I know the other thing youwanted to mention was how to
pace this over a series, becausethat's a common question, right
?
Speaker 1 (29:21):
Exactly, I think.
When it comes to pacing, thefirst thing I like to mention is
every single book within theseries needs to have a new
intimacy destination, and thatmakes a lot of readers or a lot
of writers nervous becausethey're like well, where else is
there to go?
That's why you kind of want tosort of spread out the different
levels of intimacy.
So maybe their first kiss isthe intimacy destination in book
one.
The first time they say I loveyou is the intimacy destination
(29:41):
in book two.
The first time they have sex isthe intimacy destination in
book three.
You can pace it out however youplease, but be thinking about
that while you're writing bookone, Because if you have them,
you know, hit every single baseand get married in book one.
You don't have a lot of room togrow in book two, three, four.
So be thinking about that rightfrom the start.
(30:02):
Additionally, we have to takeinto consideration the fact that
in different books in a series,you know they might not be
happy together.
They might end book one hatingeach other.
You know we see a lot ofromanticist books where one
character betrays the other inthe first book, so they hate
each other by the end.
And the character who did thebad thing is going to try and
win their partner back in booktwo.
(30:23):
So it could be that, you know,book one ends kind of tragically
or sadly, and the intimacydestination in book two is them
getting back together, you know,and them reestablishing their
connection.
So that's definitely somethingto take into consideration.
It's also worth noting that wesee a lot of romanticist books
where we sort of have the loveinterest fake out, where the
(30:44):
main character is in love with,you know, person A, and then
they meet person B in book twoand it, you know, and we have a
little bit of a love triangle.
Who will they choose?
And then maybe person A in bookthree betrays them, and so now
it's very obvious we're going togo with person B, something
like that.
So again, this is somethingthat I would recommend figuring
(31:04):
out before you write book one orwhile you're writing book one,
because you don't want to writeyourself into a corner and now
you have nowhere to go.
Speaker 2 (31:14):
Yeah, and I already can imagine you're going to say
like it doesn't have to beperfect, it's just a guideline
of you know where do you wantthis to go, and it can change,
but it's better than ending upin a corner, like you said, and
it's hard, exactly.
Speaker 1 (31:23):
Exactly Everything is open to change.
That's another thing peopleworry about.
They're what if I veer from myoutline?
I'm like everyone veers fromtheir outline.
Yeah, that's very normal.
That's just a part of thewriting process.
It's fine.
It's a guide.
It's not set in stone.
So it's fine if you veer.
It's just here to kind of helpgive you a direction.
Speaker 2 (31:42):
Yeah, I love that so much.
Okay, so we talked about againcharacters, we talked about
writing in a series, and we can,of course, go into more detail
if listeners get your book.
So let's talk about where do weget that?
I know you have a pre-orderbonus.
Tell us about that.
Give us all the juicy details.
Speaker 1 (31:58):
So right now it's available for pre-order all over
the place.
I have a link that you canshare.
But, yeah, you can pre-order itpretty much everywhere.
And, in terms of the pre-orderbonus, if you pre-order the book
, you have the opportunity toreceive a free digital workbook.
That is sort of thestep-by-step process of creating
the power couple.
So everything we discussedabout compliments and common
ground and things like that,it's a little guidebook that
(32:21):
helps you create that, so youcan build the character profile
but also, you know, build thesecharacters side by side.
We've got extra pages just incase you're writing a thruple or
a polycule.
So, yeah, as soon as youdownload the digital workbook,
you can start working in it.
You don't have to wait untilOctober 21st for you to be able
to use it, and I've already hada lot of people talk to me
saying I really love thisworkbook.
I've already figured out mycharacter, so it's really
(32:42):
exciting.
Speaker 2 (32:42):
Yeah, I love it and I love thinking about each
character individually andcouple together.
I think that's a super smartway to go about it, so we will
put all the links to that in theshow notes, as well as where to
find you on your YouTube andall the fun things like that.
Any last like parting words ofwisdom, parting advice,
inspiration that you want toshare with listeners.
Speaker 1 (33:02):
Yeah, sure, I know we covered a lot of rules and
stuff like that in this episode.
I think the number one thing tokeep in mind is, first of all,
these rules are just to kind of.
They're not actual rules.
You can ultimately do whateveryou want.
This is just to try and helpyou, you know, secure an
audience who will really beobsessed with these characters,
obsessed with this book.
(33:22):
That's the idea is just tryingto create a really loyal
audience who they're just inlove with the romance that
you've created.
But the number one thing I liketo remind people is this is
supposed to be fun.
You know we write romanticybecause it's fun and it's
exciting.
It's the best of both worlds.
You have the magic and you knowcreatures of fantasy, but then
you also have like the swoonystuff of romance.
(33:44):
Like, just remind yourself,this is supposed to be fun.
So try not to stress out toomuch.
At the end of the day, it's abook about, like, dragons and
kissing.
Okay, it's not that deep and Idon't mean that in, you know,
like a diminishing way.
Obviously, I write the genre.
I love the genre.
There's depth to the charactersand everything like that.
But I just mean the process issupposed to be fun.
So if you're not enjoying it, Imean obviously there will be
(34:05):
moments where you know that areless fun to write.
There are going to be lulls inthe process, but ultimately the
idea is to write something thatyou're excited about.
Okay, so if you're taking ittoo seriously, you're doing it
wrong.
Speaker 2 (34:17):
Yeah, and that's what tools like Jenna's book and her
YouTube channel and thispodcast ideally help you have
more fun while doing it.
So we both hope you're havingso much fun, and thank you,
jenna, for coming on the show.
I'm so excited to get a copy ofyour new book and share it with
everybody.
Speaker 1 (34:31):
Thank you so much for having me.
It was an absolute blast.
Speaker 2 (34:34):
All right, so that's it for this episode of the
Fiction Writing Made Easypodcast.
Head over to savannagilbocomforward slash podcast for the
complete show notes, includingthe resources I mentioned today,
as well as bonus materials tohelp you implement what you've
learned, and if you're ready toget more personalized guidance
for your specific writing stage,whether you're just starting
(34:55):
out, stuck somewhere in themiddle of a draft, drowning in
revisions, or getting ready topublish, take my free 30-second
quiz at savannahgilbocom forwardslash quiz.
You'll get a customized podcastplaylist that'll meet you right
where you're at and help youget to your next big milestone.
Last but not least, at and helpyou get to your next big
milestone.
Last but not least, make sureto follow this podcast in your
podcast player of choice,because I'll be back next week
(35:15):
with another episode full ofactionable tips, tools and
strategies to help you become abetter writer.
Until then, happy writing.
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