Learn how to write authentic, diverse characters without over-explaining or fearing criticism.
Writing diverse characters can feel intimidating. You want to include different voices in your story, but worry about misrepresenting them. This leads many writers to either avoid diversity altogether or fall into the trap of over-explaining everything for a mainstream gaze, thereby diluting the power of their story.
In this episode, I sit down with Tiffany Grimes, founder of Burgeon Design and Editorial and an MFA-trained editor who specializes in amplifying marginalized voices. After recognizing areas for growth in her own feedback, Tiffany has spent years helping writers shed performative expectations and write with radical honesty.
Here's what we cover:
[05:40] Tiffany's vulnerable experience writing about a Vietnamese character and learning she wasn't the right person to tell that story.
[10:06] The core framework that separates writing "about" a community versus writing "to" your community from the inside.
[18:48] Why you should give yourself permission to write the stereotype first in early drafts.
[20:24] How Jesinia (a deaf character in the Fourth Wing) shows why trusting your audience creates better representation.
[21:20] The protection question that helps you identify when you're diluting your story for mainstream audiences.
[26:53] Understanding emotional clarity and how readers' experience goes deeper than just character representation.
Whether you're writing characters from your own experience or exploring different perspectives, this conversation offers compassionate guidance for creating authentic, powerful stories that honor both your characters and your readers.
🔗 Links mentioned in this episode:
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_01 (00:00):
So I want you to think about what you're writing
(00:01):
about versus who you're writingto.
There is a powerful differencebetween writing about a
community for outsiders andwriting to your community from
the inside.
The first one is going to centerthe explanation, and the second
one is going to center thetruth.
And I want you to really knowthat this is a big spectrum.
It's not a binary.
And you as the writer get tochoose what's intimate, what's
(00:22):
public, what's layered andcoded.
Not everything needs to belegible to everyone.
And everything about this isyour artistic choice.
SPEAKER_00 (00:33):
Welcome to the Fiction Writing Made Easy
Podcast.
My name is Savannah Gilbo, andI'm here to help you write a
story that works.
I want to prove to you thatwriting a novel doesn't have to
be overwhelming.
So each week I'll bring you abrand new episode with simple,
actionable, and step-by-stepstrategies that you can
implement in your writing rightaway.
So whether you're brand new towriting or more of a seasoned
(00:54):
author looking to improve yourcraft, this podcast is for you.
So pick up a pen and let's getstarted.
In today's episode, we're divinginto a topic that's as important
as it is nuanced, and that ishow to write stories that
resonate deeply with yourcommunity without diluting their
truth to fit a mainstream lens.
If you've ever worried aboutmisrepresentation,
(01:17):
overexplaining, or writing forthe wrong audience, then this
episode is for you.
Today I'm joined by TiffanyGrimes, a book coach, editor,
writer, and website designerwho's passionate about
supporting marginalized writersand helping all authors tell
stories that are authentic,intentional, and impactful.
Tiffany has spent yearsexploring how to navigate bias
(01:37):
in her feedback, how to writewith care, and how to center
emotional truth in storytelling.
And she's here to share herwisdom with us today.
So in this episode, we're goingto talk about what it means to
subvert the mainstream gaze andhow to write for your community
instead of through the lens ofwhat publishing often assumes is
the default.
We'll explore how to avoidoverexplaining, how to trust
(01:58):
your reader, and how to approachwriting characters of
experiences that are outside ofyour own identity with care and
intention.
Tiffany also shares practicalstrategies and frameworks to
help you navigate these choiceswith confidence.
This is such a layered andimportant conversation, and I
hope it leaves you feelingcurious, empowered, and ready to
write stories that truly matter.
(02:19):
Now, with all of that beingsaid, let's dive right into my
conversation with TiffanyGrimes.
SPEAKER_01 (02:23):
I'm Tiffany Grimes, and I am a book coach and editor
and writer and love sitedesigner.
I have spent the past five plusyears really exploring how to,
you know, know what my biasesare and how to actually give
someone feedback that is helpfuland going to help them grow
(02:44):
instead of make them want togive up completely.
SPEAKER_00 (02:47):
And so we are talking about how to write for
your communities instead of thatwhite slash neurotypical slash
mainstream lens.
So how do we define that, firstof all?
Like how do we define what we'retrying to not do, I guess?
SPEAKER_01 (03:01):
First, I want to say that this is a really big,
layered, nuanced conversation,one that we've been exploring
for a long time as writers andeditors in publishing,
especially those of usnavigating marginalization and
publishing.
And so this is a starting point,and we're going to be
simplifying some of these bigideas so we can open the door to
reflection and action.
And so I hope that our listenerswalk away feeling curious,
(03:24):
empowered, and maybe a littlebit more equipped to writing
stories on their own terms.
And I also think it's reallyimportant to acknowledge my own
proximity to privilege anddegree of marginalization.
I'm a non-binary able-bodiedEnglish speaker.
I'm white.
My identity is further shaped bymy neurodivergence, high
sensitivity, and bisexuality.
And I grew up in foster care andwas adopted at age 10.
(03:47):
And I navigate life with hellatons of anxiety and depression.
SPEAKER_00 (03:51):
Yeah.
And just so listeners know too,like I am also from that
privileged perspective.
So I'm I'm hoping, like yousaid, this conversation will be
something that can help.
And it's hopefully we open thatdoor.
So what does this mean if forlisteners who might not be
familiar with that concept?
What does gays mean?
What does the mainstream gazemean in this context?
SPEAKER_01 (04:10):
So when we talk about gays, we're talking about
the assumed audience a story iswritten for.
So whose comfort, understanding,and perspective the work
centers.
And in publishing, themainstream gays tends to be
white, straight, cis, andneurotypical.
Um, and so we've heard likewhite gays when the stories are
shaped for white readers, malegays, women are often reduced to
(04:31):
objects.
And then we have like Westerngays, is something I've been
exploring a lot, like Westernversus Eastern storytelling.
A lot of my Asian writers likehave a love-hate relationship
with publishing in the UnitedStates because the types of
stories that they grew up withand love and want to write don't
necessarily fit our publishing.
And I'm gonna put standards, I'mdoing air quotes because the
(04:55):
stuff changes every day.
And we see new books that comeout that do things that the
books haven't done before andwhatnot.
So, like at this moment in time,there have only been a handful,
maybe maybe more than a handful,of more Eastern storytellings.
It's that like perspective,mostly that I want writers to
think about.
Like, who am I telling the storyfor?
(05:17):
Am I telling the story forpeople who are like me?
Or am I like diluting the storydown into something that can
connect to everyone?
Which bluesplash, it can't,because that's not a thing.
You can't connect to everyone.
SPEAKER_00 (05:30):
And even like outside of this conversation of
the mainstream gaze, your storyshould not be for everyone
anyway.
So it's like this is justanother way to think about that.
And I'm curious about your ownexperience.
So, when did you recognize likeyou were kind of writing for
that white mainstream gaze?
And then what made you dosomething different about it?
SPEAKER_01 (05:50):
I have made a lot of mistakes.
So when I was in grad school,thankfully, we started to have
some conversation about this.
This was like 2013 to 2015.
I don't remember like what washappening in publishing, I don't
think it was publishing paid meyet or anything like that, but
we were starting to have a lotmore conversations about who is
allowed to tell what story.
(06:11):
And so I heard like, don't haveall your characters be white.
And then I decided, okay, I'llwrite a character from a
Vietnamese point of view.
She was adopted, so like I wasadopted.
I can connect to her.
And oh my gosh, everybody was sonice and sweet, and like really
helped me realize like I was notthe right person to be telling
(06:31):
that story.
My sweet baby Kate Tate was mycharacter's name.
There was no reason for her tobe Vietnamese, and I wasn't the
right person to have thatadoptee gaze because being
adopted in the United States isso much different.
Like, I was adopted in the samecounty that I was born in.
I did not have thattransatlantic experience or
anything like that.
(06:52):
And so I was definitely not theright person.
And I think people could haveeasily been like, hey, like, and
just I don't know, beat me upfor doing that.
But they were so sweet and niceand like guided me to that place
that I feel like I really neededthat.
Otherwise, I could see meimmediately being like, oh my
God, and like hiding undercovers.
I do that a little bit because Iam embarrassed, but like we
(07:15):
learn, we grow.
SPEAKER_00 (07:16):
Yeah.
Well, and I think it's soimportant.
I know it you feel embarrassedabout it, but it's so important
for other people to hear likeyou've made this mistake too.
And I know it's something likeyou said, don't include a cast
of all white people.
We hear that all the time.
Don't include, you know, a castof all males.
Don't include a cast of allneurotypical people.
And so then when we don't knowany better, we kind of just
(07:37):
shift to doing what you did,right?
So it's a very commonexperience.
And then we start to worry,well, what if I get it wrong?
What if I don't represent themwell enough?
What if, you know, what if, whatif, what if?
So I'm glad that you offer anoutlet for people to talk about
this.
And it's very non-judgmental.
It's very like, let me help youinstead of you're doing
everything wrong.
So your experience is soimportant in that.
(07:58):
And so let's say that we're awriter and we're thinking, okay,
we do want to, you know, have amixture of people, mixture of
types, mixture of whatever we'regonna say in our books.
When choosing to write from adifferent lens than our own,
where do we even start withthat?
Because that's a bigconversation.
SPEAKER_01 (08:15):
Yeah.
I think that I want you to startwith the why.
Like, why do you think that youneed to do that?
Is there a hole in the market?
Is there a space for that?
I had an opportunity once to doa work for higher project that
was, it was kind of like doing abit of history on like trans
identities or something likethat.
(08:36):
And I was very new to myexplored my identity and my
gender and and all the things.
And I was like, I'm not theright person to tell that story.
And the person who ended uptelling that story was straight
and cis and like had norelationship with it.
So I was kind of like, okay, Ishould have done that because I
would have come from a place ofcare and love instead of a place
(08:58):
of like, I don't, I don't knowwhat place she was from.
I want to learn how to do that.
Yeah, that's really interesting.
SPEAKER_00 (09:02):
Yeah, that's really interesting.
SPEAKER_01 (09:04):
So I want you to think about what you're writing
about versus who you're writingto.
There is a powerful differencebetween writing about a
community for outsiders andwriting to your community from
the inside.
The first one is gonna centerthe explanation, and the second
one is gonna center the truth.
And I want you to really knowthat this is a big spectrum,
it's not a binary.
And you, as the writer, get tochoose what's intimate, what's
(09:27):
public, what's layered andcoded.
Not everything needs to belegible to everyone.
And everything about this isyour artistic choice.
And so when you are choosingyour lens and whose eyes you're
seeing the story through andyour audience and who you're
speaking to, this is part ofyour artistic creative autonomy.
And every choice, craft choiceyou make, your point of view,
(09:50):
tone, narrative, distance, it'sall gonna shift based on the
gaze that you're centering.
And basically, I want you tothink about how like a narrator
explaining a cultural ritual toan outsider is gonna feel so
much different than someonewho's just living inside of it.
SPEAKER_00 (10:04):
Totally.
And that's so interesting.
So talk about those twodifferent choices you said.
One is about the expectations,and the other one is about what
did you say?
It's centering the truth.
Centering the truth.
Okay, so talk about the firstone because I think this is
gonna be super helpful.
SPEAKER_01 (10:17):
Yeah.
So when you are like researchingsomething outside of your own
identity, uh, so for me with myVietnamese character, I did a
lot of that work, right?
I read books that were writtenby Vietnamese authors, I talked
to Vietnamese people, andeverybody, everything was kind
of saying, like, yeah, you'remaking all the right choices.
(10:39):
But the book wasn't where itneeded to be.
It didn't have that emotionaltruth that it needed to have.
Just because I had that adoptedgaze and knew what it was like
to be in foster care and hadthat truth, I did not have the
truth of what it is like to beVietnamese in a white household
in Florida.
SPEAKER_00 (10:59):
Yeah.
So yeah, so you're writing kindof for the expectation of what
we assume that experience mightbe like without having lists.
Yes.
And then the other one you saidis we're writing for the truth.
So that is, I'm assuming we havethat truth, we own it, and we're
sharing that with other people.
SPEAKER_01 (11:15):
And it's not a set thing, right?
Every single person has adifferent truth.
So that's where we get moresubjective.
Exactly.
That's where we get pushback inreviews, which is like, this is
not how a trans woman wouldexist.
And the person's like, this isliterally my identity.
SPEAKER_00 (11:31):
Right.
And I think that's going to bereally helpful for listeners
because a lot of people probablyare writing to that expectation
of, you know, here's kind ofwhat I assume, here's what I'm
reading about.
And that's kind of all theymaybe know how to do because
they don't understand thatthere's another layer to it.
So what would you suggest ifsomeone is they're like, I have
that Vietnamese character, Ihave that neurodivergent
(11:53):
character, whatever it is, andI'm totally doing what you just
said.
And let's pretend, because youalready said we can tap into our
why, like, why are we doing it?
What kind of what kind offraming do we want to have?
What would you then recommend islike their next step?
SPEAKER_01 (12:07):
Well, to give them a hug and like really have them
look within, right?
Why am I doing this?
And if the answer is like, thecharacter came to me.
Oh my gosh, I said that oncewhen one of my writing teachers
asked me why, I was like, Shejust came to me, Vietnamese,
what message?
Yeah.
I want you to just really thinkabout it.
I cannot tell you that youcannot write this person.
(12:29):
That's not my place.
You are the only person who getsto decide what you're going to
write and whatnot.
If you need to write that justfor yourself, that's totally
valid and fine.
It does not have to bepublished.
But if you do publish it, then Iwant you to be ready, uh,
especially in today's day andage, to deal with the
consequences of that.
SPEAKER_00 (12:49):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (12:49):
There's a big, huge, ginormous chance that you will
get canceled.
There's even people who areadjacent to that kind of thing
that they're writing about cansometimes get a lot of backlash,
which is really wild to me.
I know it's bigger in why thanadult, but we're still seeing it
a lot.
SPEAKER_00 (13:08):
So, how do we start to recognize that we're writing
maybe for what we think weshould do for this typical
mainstream gaze versus likewhat's true truly on our heart?
And I know you're gonna say partof it is tapping into that why.
Is there anything I actuallywasn't gonna say?
SPEAKER_01 (13:22):
Oh, you weren't?
Okay.
I want you should know your whyfor sure.
But I want you to ask yourselfwho is your imagined reader?
And then are you assuming theyshare your experience or are you
anticipating their confusion orjudgment?
And so some signs that you'reslipping into that like
translator mode, you might beover-explaining cultural
references or neurodivergentbehaviors.
(13:43):
I saw something recently wherean author had a foreword that
was talking about how she used alot of language from queer
culture in like the 80s and howthe word dike, for example, was
like a an identity and a term ofadherence.
Where now it's more a littlenegative.
Right.
People still use it, right?
It's so the community alone isso pocketed and nuanced, and
(14:07):
everybody feels differentlyabout everything.
So when you are writing aspecific character or identity,
or even more than one specificone, really hone in on what
their experience is and wherethey exist and live in the
world.
A lot of pushback with thatwriter having that forward was
that she didn't need to do that.
It was like distilling the artdown and like not trusting the
(14:30):
reader.
So I want you to trust yourreader way more than you think
you should.
SPEAKER_00 (14:35):
And that's that's interesting, that example too,
because it's almost like who wasthat ideal reader, right?
And for her, probably the if youasked her what's on her heart,
it would be people like her.
And people like her wouldn'tneed that explanation, right?
Exactly.
SPEAKER_01 (14:50):
And it is okay if as the reader, we don't know what's
going on right away.
We can be confused for a minute,it's not a big deal.
You know how many times readinglike Tolkien of we're confused
and we just like wait until itmakes sense?
We can trust the author to giveus the context.
SPEAKER_00 (15:08):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So I love that.
Okay, so you've given like mybrain latches onto frameworks
and you've given the two reallygood things I love, which is the
are you writing for theexpectation or from your truth?
And then you said, Are youwriting from a place of
explaining away confusion oravoiding judgment?
And I'm just gonna repeat thoseuntil the end of time because
they're so good.
I'm so glad.
So what a couple more I know youhave a couple more.
SPEAKER_01 (15:30):
Yeah.
So are you glossing overemotional complexity?
And I'm gonna talk a lot moreabout emotional complexity and
stuff later, but just is theemotional truth of your reader
and their experience just beingglossed over?
Are we just focusing on likemaking sure someone understands
this from an outsideperspective?
Are we adding background thatfeels like justification rather
(15:52):
than storytelling?
One of the common traps that wesee with feedback is well, well,
clarity, right?
Clarity is such a big thing.
We want to make sure that thescene is clear.
Uh, that can mean anything.
And sometimes, even as aneditor, we don't explain it well
enough.
And authors a lot of times willhear explain this for a white,
neurotypical or normativeaudience, even when that's not
(16:14):
what they're being asked to do.
Uh, so if you have any feedbackthat's like asking for clarity,
I want you to like break thatdown even more and think about
what you want that phrase orscene or or whatever it is to
actually do, and then decidewhat that clarity looks like for
you.
SPEAKER_00 (16:30):
Yeah.
That's interesting because I dosee that a lot.
I have a membership, and themembers in there will sometimes
share feedback that they'vegotten from beta readers or
editors or whoever.
And the comments that they'llget will say something like, I
don't know what you mean here.
Can you be a little more clear?
And sometimes that's the rightquestion to ask.
But what I prefer as an editoris I say, Is your reader going
(16:51):
to understand this?
And maybe I just don't, youknow?
So it's it's you're totallyright about what does that
question really mean?
What does that feedback reallymean?
And do you want to be moreclear?
Because maybe you don't,literally.
SPEAKER_01 (17:03):
Yeah.
Most of the time you actuallydon't.
Yeah.
But sometimes you do.
And I love that.
Is your reader going tounderstand?
I think it's funny because whenwe're giving feedback, even as
writers, we are thinking aboutour kind of experience in that
single place in time that we'rereading the story, right?
And so I will read a book a fewtimes when I'm giving feedback
(17:26):
to kind of see how somethingsits after I have the rest of
the book or how it sat beforeand like what the disparity is
between that and what the bookis actually trying to do.
And I think when writers aregetting feedback from editors or
beta readers or whatever, theykind of just say, that's gold.
I'm gonna take whatever that isinstead of holding the whole
(17:46):
story and what it's trying todo.
I know it's really hard.
This isn't easy.
SPEAKER_00 (17:51):
It's really hard.
That's also why likeprofessional developmental
editors and line editors and allthat are actually like really
worth investment, right?
But and yeah, I think like ifyou're someone who can't afford
that, that's totally fine too.
If you have beta readers, justknow kind of what we're both
saying is that sometimes thefeedback is asking you to put in
stuff that your ideal reader orwho you're writing for isn't
(18:13):
going to need or want.
So it all goes back to like whoyou're writing for, why you're
writing this, and I think umexactly what you said in those
two frameworks earlier, writingfor the expectation, the truth,
you know, all that.
SPEAKER_01 (18:24):
I just want to reiterate that you have to trust
your reader and trust yourselfwhen you're writing with your
community in mind.
SPEAKER_00 (18:32):
Yeah.
Plus, I think like the biggestthing to realize there is that
your reader wants to have thatexperience of who your character
is.
So give them that experience anddon't worry about like watering
it down or, you know, glossingover it or anything like that.
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah.
And so speaking of that, I knowyou have some practical
strategies to help us writersavoid overexplaining,
(18:54):
flattening, translating culturalexperiences or neurodivergent
experiences.
Talk to us about those becausewe love practical strategies.
SPEAKER_01 (19:01):
The first one is gonna shock you.
You're gonna be blown over.
Ready, everybody.
Literally.
I'm gonna give you permission towrite the stereotype first.
So back in grad school, I was ina workshop for graphic novels of
all places.
I don't even write graphicnovels, but I knew I wanted to
be in the room with Jean Yang.
He wrote American Born Chineseand and everything.
(19:23):
And he was like, write thestereotype first.
I do that in my first drafts.
He's like, I'm Chinese, I writeso many Chinese stereotypes.
Because when you're censoringyourself, you're not gonna get
that specificity and detail thatyou need to make the book good.
And you're also going to tieyourself in the knot to try to
get it right because you care somuch about getting it right.
So write the stereotype.
(19:44):
You can edit it later, but youhave to get something on the
page first.
And I want you can like callthis your for me draft if you
want.
You can call it whatever youwant, but it can be called a for
me draft if you choose.
And then once you get thatemotional truth on the page, you
can edit it with all of thatintention later on.
Yeah.
Love that.
Also, when we think about ourown identities, sometimes we
(20:05):
think about it throughstereotypes, like who exists in
this world too.
So just get it out and thendecide what's worth leaving on
the page.
So you might leave thestereotype and then have another
character confront it and callit out.
You might not.
It totally depends on whatyou're trying to do.
SPEAKER_00 (20:19):
Yeah, I love that.
Okay, so what's the secondpractical strategy?
SPEAKER_01 (20:23):
The second one is to trust your audience again.
So important, we're saying ittwice.
Some readers are gonna missthings um because they're
reading fast.
I don't know, they're busy.
They're gonna miss it.
The biggest one recently was thefourth wing deaf character.
Everybody was like, oh my god, Ididn't know she was deaf.
Right.
And I'm like, it's on the page.
It's totally on the page.
Yeah.
(20:43):
I like went back and I was like,it's right there on the page.
Right, just Cinia is her name.
Exactly.
And so we're not writing to theperson who's gonna miss the
thing.
We're writing to the person whodoesn't need us to explain it
17,000 times.
So trust your audience.
SPEAKER_00 (20:58):
Okay, let's pause there for a second because
imagine that you are someone whois deaf and you're reading that
and you're like, I feel seenbecause this person's existing
just as they are.
There's no over-explanation.
There's no like, hey, look atme, right?
There's no look at me, I'm theauthor putting in this deaf
character.
She's just a person in theworld, just like real life.
Right.
Exactly.
Yeah, I love that.
(21:19):
Okay.
SPEAKER_01 (21:19):
Yeah.
And then I want you to askyourself, who am I trying to
protect or appease with thisexplanation?
If the answer is a mainstreamaudience, I'm not actually
writing for, then that's a cue.
Right.
I love that question.
Can you say that one more time?
SPEAKER_00 (21:34):
Who am I trying to protect or appease with this
explanation?
I love that.
That's such a good filter too,because I I feel like with the
writers I work with, most of thetime that's what they're trying
to do protect or appease.
Yeah.
At some point, you're trying toprotect yourself.
Totally.
SPEAKER_01 (21:51):
Yeah, once you let go of that, you get to a deeper
truth, right?
Exactly.
And you write better.
So I love that.
Okay.
And then the last one is toread, read mentor text, read
authors who are doing whatyou're trying to do.
And then, you know, go fromthere.
A big book I want everybody toread.
It's not a big book.
A book I want everybody to readis Yellowface.
Yes.
(22:11):
I think that's a good thing.
That's a great example.
Yeah.
The biggest thing that you cando as a writer is read.
And I know so many writers, Iask them, like, what's a book
you've read recently?
And they're like, Oh, I don'tread.
And I'm like, oh my God, don'tread.
And so I get a lot of homeworkto go read, especially in your
genre, but also outside of yourgenre.
You have to read to write.
SPEAKER_00 (22:32):
Yeah, totally.
I love that.
And so I know a question I getasked a lot is like, okay, let's
say I want to write a characterwho's not like me, who is
marginalized in whatever way.
And the instinct is always like,I'm going to do the research.
Maybe I'm going to go onInstagram and I'm going to find
some people and get to know themor whatever.
And you're kind of adding one tothe list of read books that do
(22:53):
it well.
SPEAKER_01 (22:53):
Is there anything else you want to tell listeners
about like how to go aboutstarting this other than what we
I think there are probably abillion different touch points,
but one that I would recommendis the book Writing an Identity
Not Your Own.
It's a very thick book.
It's a this is a topic that wecould talk about for years and
years.
So that book, I think, was areally good.
(23:15):
We just read it in my my bookclub for the residency.
And it was interesting because Ithink you go into it being like,
all right, I'm ready for myguide of how to do this.
And the book was basicallysaying a lot of like what we're
we're saying today, right?
Like there is no guide.
You have to take likeaccountability for your art and
really think about it andanalyze it and come from a place
(23:37):
of intention and care and love.
And then remember your name ison the cover.
So like your editor is not goingto get the backlash, the
publisher is not going to getthe backlash, the author on the
books.
Even if you hire sensitivityreaders and do all of the
things, like it might have somepushback.
And what we do with thatpushback too, we don't say like,
(23:57):
oh my God, I did all the thingsI was supposed to do.
We just say like try harder nextyear.
SPEAKER_00 (24:03):
And I think, you know, I can imagine people
listening and they're like,Well, I don't want to try.
This sounds scary.
Why would you recommend notgoing with that mindset?
SPEAKER_01 (24:11):
So you could do that.
I know a lot of writers do.
Yeah.
Um, but you exist in this worldwith people who are not like
you.
And there are so many thingsthat have done that before that
I want you to just be better.
There's yeah, be a better human.
SPEAKER_00 (24:27):
Rise of the challenge, too, you know.
SPEAKER_01 (24:29):
Yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_00 (24:31):
Such a quality challenge, and it's such a, like
you said, a way to startthinking outside ourselves and
become better humans and havemore empathy.
And, you know.
So I like to get to the root oflike, don't let the fear stop
you.
It's a very worthwhile endeavor.
And a lot of the instincts ofwhy people want to write from a
different perspective or fordifferent gaze are very valid.
(24:51):
So it's like, you know, take thefear and do it anyway.
Do it anyway and do it withcare.
SPEAKER_01 (24:56):
And we're not telling you in this conversation
to like go write a characterwho's different from you as your
main character.
These are side characters,they're people who just exist in
the world happily.
Like Justinia was, I was gonnasay she's a small character,
she's kind of a large, importantcharacter in the book.
Exactly.
And like she is obviouslydifferent from Rebecca Yaros.
(25:18):
And so there are so manydifferent types of people in the
world, obviously.
You can't put all of them inyour book, but the ones you do
put in your book, I want them tobe intentional and to make sense
and to, you know, be from aplace of love and care.
SPEAKER_00 (25:33):
Right.
Yeah, I love that.
And also like thinking of FourthWing, too.
That's uh the main character hasum EDS.
And that's like a I've heardseen a lot on the internet about
people who are reallyappreciative and they're like,
wow, I could see myself in that.
And it's so cool to see a girlriding dragons with EDS, you
know?
And like that's the pathway.
Yes, and that's the power oflike putting yourself in your
(25:55):
vulnerability, and what a greatexperience to have at your
disposal to reach other people,I think.
SPEAKER_01 (26:02):
And I think too, if you're not what you would call
marginalized, I like to sayoutdoor recognized, yeah,
personally.
But if you're not, you havethings about you that are
different from other people.
You're not a cookie cuttergingerbread man, right?
Like you have a history and alife and emotions and things
(26:22):
that you care about andobsessions and all of that
stuff.
So I don't want you to limityourself to your, I was gonna
say boring, your boring lightstrength escape.
SPEAKER_00 (26:31):
Yeah.
I mean, because that's whatmakes fiction so cool too, is
when we read that trueexperience, no matter what that
experience looks like.
So yeah, I love that.
And that's people always um citethat quote of like, write what
you know, and they're like,Well, I'm not a neuroscientist.
And it's like, okay, not that.
It's more about your experienceand emotionality and all that
stuff.
Exactly.
Um, but you also talk about soemotional clarity and like the
(26:54):
structural intention of thingsbeing more important or like
more than just marketabilitywhen writing stories that can't
just be simplified to thatstraight white male case.
SPEAKER_01 (27:06):
This one is probably a little bit more complicated,
but I want you to think aboutemotional clarity as twofold.
It's both how the characterfeels, and we have things like
the emotional thesaurus to helpus with this, which is a super
great tool, but it's also howthe reader feels as they move
through the story.
So I want you to ask, what isthis story emotionally doing to
(27:28):
the reader?
Is it offering catharsis,solidarity, discomfort, urgency,
hope?
Who is the emotional arcactually for?
And um, an example about this isI had a client who is writing a
memoir about infant loss.
And it's gonna read verydifferently, right?
Depending on the audience.
Is it a hand reaching out toother grieving parents, or is it
(27:48):
bearing witness for those whohave never known this pain?
Because when you're bearingwitness, you get to go to those
really dark, horrible emotionalplaces.
And when it's a hand reachingout to other grieving parents,
you need to really center thathope and like we're gonna get
through this kind of angle.
Yeah, different.
Very, very different.
And so think about that when youare centering your story, right?
(28:11):
So when we talk about queerbooks, a lot of the reasons that
we're like, you can't kill yourqueer character is because when
queer characters startedappearing in books, they were
killed off.
It was either a coming outstory, a conversion story, or
they had to die at the end.
Yeah.
And so it doesn't mean you can'tkill your queer character.
I have like queer characters diein my book, but like every
(28:33):
character is queer in my book.
So someone's gonna die.
It's a gauntlet novel.
Um, and so I really want you tothink about where you're like
the history of it almost, andlike why we feel the way we feel
as a reader.
Not which character is importanttoo, but as the reader.
SPEAKER_00 (28:52):
Yeah.
That's super interesting becausejust tying it back to Fourth
Wing, we could have had a verydifferent reading experience if
we felt really bad for Violet.
And instead, by the end, thereader journey is we're inspired
by her.
We're like, look how powerfulshe is, despite this physical,
you know, limitation or whateveryou want to call it.
So yeah, it's very interestingto think about it that way.
SPEAKER_01 (29:11):
Yeah.
And each genre, right, is goingto have a different entry way
into that.
Because this is a fantasy bookwhere she gets the hot, awesome
guy.
It's like we're gonna feel androot for her and and yeah, have
all of that.
But if this was, I don't know,without the hot guy, um, maybe
he actually does try to kill herthe whole time.
SPEAKER_00 (29:33):
It'd be a very different book.
Totally.
Yeah, that's so interesting tothink about.
And you could almost think aboutthat in terms of any story that
we're saying, like Yellow Face,that is a great mentor text.
Like if you just think aboutdifferent ways the lens could
have been presented and how theaudience feels, very
interesting.
Right.
And Yellowface, yeah, is such agood example.
I don't want to spoil anythingfor anyone who hasn't read it,
(29:55):
but holy moly, you feel like youare that character and the
immersion is so good.
And I can't imagine a differentlens on that.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (30:04):
And I that's the thing too.
You are the only person who canwrite the book the way that you
write it.
And you will have that lens.
So I want you to like go hard.
Own it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Own it.
And really think about theimpact of it.
And I know it's like, I don'twant to have impact and I don't
want to change the world.
I'm just a person writing mysilly little books.
But also books, when I wasyounger, I was like, I'm gonna
(30:26):
write a book because I wantsomething to live longer than
me.
And I'm like, wow,seven-year-old Tiffany, that's
wow, wow.
But like it's true, right?
They they last long, a longtime.
Today, less so.
They might last a blip becauseso many books are being
published.
But yeah, just think about thatimpact.
And you don't have to be like,okay, the weight of the world is
on my shoulders and andeverything, but come from your
(30:49):
place and intention.
I keep saying intention.
Um, but like really think aboutget that one reader you're
writing for, that one person andhow you want them to feel.
Do you want them to feel held?
Do you want them to feel seen?
And what does that look like?
We have all of these crafttools, right?
Like the order that what theevents are in the story, the
pacing, the narrative frame.
(31:10):
We already talked about POV,talked about all these things.
These are all tools that aregonna guide how a reader feels,
thinks, and metabolizes thestory.
And so I want you to kind ofapproach it from a less linear
way, because when we are writingthese characters with these
complicated lives, we can't havethat simplified storyline.
(31:32):
It's gonna be messy layered,deeply specific and whatnot.
But that is still accessible.
And back to that marketabilityterm we mentioned.
Right.
The more specific and messy andlayered and emotional truths
that we have, the more it'smarketable.
It's like wild how that happens.
SPEAKER_00 (31:52):
Yeah, and it's interesting because you know,
again, we're kind of back tothat point of well, we want to
write books for everybody.
And it's like, that's not theway to go, right?
We want to be specific, we wantto get the emotions in, and it
will find its people.
And then that's how the word ofmouse starts.
And it's like, you're not gonnaget that if you're on the
surface, if you're, you know,not going quite deep into it.
So I think that's a great point.
SPEAKER_01 (32:13):
The stats are kind of wild with how many people
actually read.
I feel like it was like twopercent or something really
depressing.
Yeah, it's six billion people.
That's a lot of people.
Yes.
And then when a book hits abestseller list, that's only
only hundreds of thousands or ormillions or whatever, which is a
small pool of that six billionpeople.
So, what I'm trying to say isyour community is out there,
(32:36):
they want to read books withpeople who are like them in it
and see themselves existing onthe page and not getting killed
off and whatnot for the sake ofthat's what we do.
So, yeah, when we're writing abook, we tend to get really
stuck, especially when we'refacing both personal and
systemic barriers.
(32:56):
So the world right now is stillon fire.
It has been the whole time I'veowned my business, which is
funny.
So we have outside forces,homophobia, transphobia, racism,
ableism among many more.
And these obstacles are shapingin like how we view ourselves
and our work.
And so I created a workbook tohelp you uncover mindset blocks
(33:18):
and explore the beliefs thatmight be standing in your way.
It could be more systemic or itcould be personal, it could be
just not having the time towrite, which is the biggest one.
It's so funny how when you havewriting as your full-time job,
you still don't have time towrite because you find the
excuses because it's notactually the problem.
Um, and so this workbook isgonna help you with exercises
(33:41):
and reflective prompts andwhatnot to help you reconnect
with the heart of your creativejourney and like honor your
goals and your process becauseyour process is gonna look
completely different from minebecause we have completely
different lives.
SPEAKER_00 (33:54):
Right.
And to clarify, is this forevery single writer listening?
Do you or is it just for peoplewho are experiencing the
challenges you mentioned?
SPEAKER_01 (34:02):
It is for every single writer.
SPEAKER_00 (34:04):
Good.
All right, and so we let's see,we have a link for that uh that
we will put in the show notes,but also where can people find
you around the internet?
SPEAKER_01 (34:12):
I am on Instagram, mostly at Virgin Design and
Editorial.
That's the main one.
If you would like to join mywriting community, the
residency, we have a free trackas well as different paid
levels.
Um, so you could come as avisitor and check it out and see
what's up.
We're all really nice in there.
And those are the main places Ihang out.
SPEAKER_00 (34:34):
Awesome.
Well, we will link to all thatin the show notes.
And thank you so much, Tippany,for sharing your wisdom, your
experience.
I think this is gonna be alistener favorite episode.
So thank you so much.
Thank you for having me.
All right, so that's it for thisepisode of the Fiction Writing
Made Easy Podcast.
Head over to savannaGilbo.comforward slash podcast for the
(34:54):
complete show notes, includingthe resources I mentioned today,
as well as bonus materials tohelp you implement what you've
learned.
And if you're ready to get morepersonalized guidance for your
specific writing stage, whetheryou're just starting out, stuck
somewhere in the middle of adraft, drowning in revisions, or
getting ready to publish, takemy free 30-second quiz at
savannaGilbo.com forward slashquiz.
(35:16):
You'll get a customized podcastplaylist that'll meet you right
where you're at and help you getto your next big milestone.
Last but not least, make sure tofollow this podcast in your
podcast player of choice becauseI'll be back next week with
another episode full ofactionable tips, tools, and
strategies to help you become abetter writer.
Until then, happy writing.
So I want you to think about what you're writing
(00:01):
about versus who you're writingto.
There is a powerful differencebetween writing about a
community for outsiders andwriting to your community from
the inside.
The first one is going to centerthe explanation, and the second
one is going to center thetruth.
And I want you to really knowthat this is a big spectrum.
It's not a binary.
And you as the writer get tochoose what's intimate, what's
(00:22):
public, what's layered andcoded.
Not everything needs to belegible to everyone.
And everything about this isyour artistic choice.
SPEAKER_00 (00:33):
Welcome to the Fiction Writing Made Easy
Podcast.
My name is Savannah Gilbo, andI'm here to help you write a
story that works.
I want to prove to you thatwriting a novel doesn't have to
be overwhelming.
So each week I'll bring you abrand new episode with simple,
actionable, and step-by-stepstrategies that you can
implement in your writing rightaway.
So whether you're brand new towriting or more of a seasoned
(00:54):
author looking to improve yourcraft, this podcast is for you.
So pick up a pen and let's getstarted.
In today's episode, we're divinginto a topic that's as important
as it is nuanced, and that ishow to write stories that
resonate deeply with yourcommunity without diluting their
truth to fit a mainstream lens.
If you've ever worried aboutmisrepresentation,
(01:17):
overexplaining, or writing forthe wrong audience, then this
episode is for you.
Today I'm joined by TiffanyGrimes, a book coach, editor,
writer, and website designerwho's passionate about
supporting marginalized writersand helping all authors tell
stories that are authentic,intentional, and impactful.
Tiffany has spent yearsexploring how to navigate bias
(01:37):
in her feedback, how to writewith care, and how to center
emotional truth in storytelling.
And she's here to share herwisdom with us today.
So in this episode, we're goingto talk about what it means to
subvert the mainstream gaze andhow to write for your community
instead of through the lens ofwhat publishing often assumes is
the default.
We'll explore how to avoidoverexplaining, how to trust
(01:58):
your reader, and how to approachwriting characters of
experiences that are outside ofyour own identity with care and
intention.
Tiffany also shares practicalstrategies and frameworks to
help you navigate these choiceswith confidence.
This is such a layered andimportant conversation, and I
hope it leaves you feelingcurious, empowered, and ready to
write stories that truly matter.
(02:19):
Now, with all of that beingsaid, let's dive right into my
conversation with TiffanyGrimes.
SPEAKER_01 (02:23):
I'm Tiffany Grimes, and I am a book coach and editor
and writer and love sitedesigner.
I have spent the past five plusyears really exploring how to,
you know, know what my biasesare and how to actually give
someone feedback that is helpfuland going to help them grow
(02:44):
instead of make them want togive up completely.
SPEAKER_00 (02:47):
And so we are talking about how to write for
your communities instead of thatwhite slash neurotypical slash
mainstream lens.
So how do we define that, firstof all?
Like how do we define what we'retrying to not do, I guess?
SPEAKER_01 (03:01):
First, I want to say that this is a really big,
layered, nuanced conversation,one that we've been exploring
for a long time as writers andeditors in publishing,
especially those of usnavigating marginalization and
publishing.
And so this is a starting point,and we're going to be
simplifying some of these bigideas so we can open the door to
reflection and action.
And so I hope that our listenerswalk away feeling curious,
(03:24):
empowered, and maybe a littlebit more equipped to writing
stories on their own terms.
And I also think it's reallyimportant to acknowledge my own
proximity to privilege anddegree of marginalization.
I'm a non-binary able-bodiedEnglish speaker.
I'm white.
My identity is further shaped bymy neurodivergence, high
sensitivity, and bisexuality.
And I grew up in foster care andwas adopted at age 10.
(03:47):
And I navigate life with hellatons of anxiety and depression.
SPEAKER_00 (03:51):
Yeah.
And just so listeners know too,like I am also from that
privileged perspective.
So I'm I'm hoping, like yousaid, this conversation will be
something that can help.
And it's hopefully we open thatdoor.
So what does this mean if forlisteners who might not be
familiar with that concept?
What does gays mean?
What does the mainstream gazemean in this context?
SPEAKER_01 (04:10):
So when we talk about gays, we're talking about
the assumed audience a story iswritten for.
So whose comfort, understanding,and perspective the work
centers.
And in publishing, themainstream gays tends to be
white, straight, cis, andneurotypical.
Um, and so we've heard likewhite gays when the stories are
shaped for white readers, malegays, women are often reduced to
(04:31):
objects.
And then we have like Westerngays, is something I've been
exploring a lot, like Westernversus Eastern storytelling.
A lot of my Asian writers likehave a love-hate relationship
with publishing in the UnitedStates because the types of
stories that they grew up withand love and want to write don't
necessarily fit our publishing.
And I'm gonna put standards, I'mdoing air quotes because the
(04:55):
stuff changes every day.
And we see new books that comeout that do things that the
books haven't done before andwhatnot.
So, like at this moment in time,there have only been a handful,
maybe maybe more than a handful,of more Eastern storytellings.
It's that like perspective,mostly that I want writers to
think about.
Like, who am I telling the storyfor?
(05:17):
Am I telling the story forpeople who are like me?
Or am I like diluting the storydown into something that can
connect to everyone?
Which bluesplash, it can't,because that's not a thing.
You can't connect to everyone.
SPEAKER_00 (05:30):
And even like outside of this conversation of
the mainstream gaze, your storyshould not be for everyone
anyway.
So it's like this is justanother way to think about that.
And I'm curious about your ownexperience.
So, when did you recognize likeyou were kind of writing for
that white mainstream gaze?
And then what made you dosomething different about it?
SPEAKER_01 (05:50):
I have made a lot of mistakes.
So when I was in grad school,thankfully, we started to have
some conversation about this.
This was like 2013 to 2015.
I don't remember like what washappening in publishing, I don't
think it was publishing paid meyet or anything like that, but
we were starting to have a lotmore conversations about who is
allowed to tell what story.
(06:11):
And so I heard like, don't haveall your characters be white.
And then I decided, okay, I'llwrite a character from a
Vietnamese point of view.
She was adopted, so like I wasadopted.
I can connect to her.
And oh my gosh, everybody was sonice and sweet, and like really
helped me realize like I was notthe right person to be telling
(06:31):
that story.
My sweet baby Kate Tate was mycharacter's name.
There was no reason for her tobe Vietnamese, and I wasn't the
right person to have thatadoptee gaze because being
adopted in the United States isso much different.
Like, I was adopted in the samecounty that I was born in.
I did not have thattransatlantic experience or
anything like that.
(06:52):
And so I was definitely not theright person.
And I think people could haveeasily been like, hey, like, and
just I don't know, beat me upfor doing that.
But they were so sweet and niceand like guided me to that place
that I feel like I really neededthat.
Otherwise, I could see meimmediately being like, oh my
God, and like hiding undercovers.
I do that a little bit because Iam embarrassed, but like we
(07:15):
learn, we grow.
SPEAKER_00 (07:16):
Yeah.
Well, and I think it's soimportant.
I know it you feel embarrassedabout it, but it's so important
for other people to hear likeyou've made this mistake too.
And I know it's something likeyou said, don't include a cast
of all white people.
We hear that all the time.
Don't include, you know, a castof all males.
Don't include a cast of allneurotypical people.
And so then when we don't knowany better, we kind of just
(07:37):
shift to doing what you did,right?
So it's a very commonexperience.
And then we start to worry,well, what if I get it wrong?
What if I don't represent themwell enough?
What if, you know, what if, whatif, what if?
So I'm glad that you offer anoutlet for people to talk about
this.
And it's very non-judgmental.
It's very like, let me help youinstead of you're doing
everything wrong.
So your experience is soimportant in that.
(07:58):
And so let's say that we're awriter and we're thinking, okay,
we do want to, you know, have amixture of people, mixture of
types, mixture of whatever we'regonna say in our books.
When choosing to write from adifferent lens than our own,
where do we even start withthat?
Because that's a bigconversation.
SPEAKER_01 (08:15):
Yeah.
I think that I want you to startwith the why.
Like, why do you think that youneed to do that?
Is there a hole in the market?
Is there a space for that?
I had an opportunity once to doa work for higher project that
was, it was kind of like doing abit of history on like trans
identities or something likethat.
(08:36):
And I was very new to myexplored my identity and my
gender and and all the things.
And I was like, I'm not theright person to tell that story.
And the person who ended uptelling that story was straight
and cis and like had norelationship with it.
So I was kind of like, okay, Ishould have done that because I
would have come from a place ofcare and love instead of a place
(08:58):
of like, I don't, I don't knowwhat place she was from.
I want to learn how to do that.
Yeah, that's really interesting.
SPEAKER_00 (09:02):
Yeah, that's really interesting.
SPEAKER_01 (09:04):
So I want you to think about what you're writing
about versus who you're writingto.
There is a powerful differencebetween writing about a
community for outsiders andwriting to your community from
the inside.
The first one is gonna centerthe explanation, and the second
one is gonna center the truth.
And I want you to really knowthat this is a big spectrum,
it's not a binary.
And you, as the writer, get tochoose what's intimate, what's
(09:27):
public, what's layered andcoded.
Not everything needs to belegible to everyone.
And everything about this isyour artistic choice.
And so when you are choosingyour lens and whose eyes you're
seeing the story through andyour audience and who you're
speaking to, this is part ofyour artistic creative autonomy.
And every choice, craft choiceyou make, your point of view,
(09:50):
tone, narrative, distance, it'sall gonna shift based on the
gaze that you're centering.
And basically, I want you tothink about how like a narrator
explaining a cultural ritual toan outsider is gonna feel so
much different than someonewho's just living inside of it.
SPEAKER_00 (10:04):
Totally.
And that's so interesting.
So talk about those twodifferent choices you said.
One is about the expectations,and the other one is about what
did you say?
It's centering the truth.
Centering the truth.
Okay, so talk about the firstone because I think this is
gonna be super helpful.
SPEAKER_01 (10:17):
Yeah.
So when you are like researchingsomething outside of your own
identity, uh, so for me with myVietnamese character, I did a
lot of that work, right?
I read books that were writtenby Vietnamese authors, I talked
to Vietnamese people, andeverybody, everything was kind
of saying, like, yeah, you'remaking all the right choices.
(10:39):
But the book wasn't where itneeded to be.
It didn't have that emotionaltruth that it needed to have.
Just because I had that adoptedgaze and knew what it was like
to be in foster care and hadthat truth, I did not have the
truth of what it is like to beVietnamese in a white household
in Florida.
SPEAKER_00 (10:59):
Yeah.
So yeah, so you're writing kindof for the expectation of what
we assume that experience mightbe like without having lists.
Yes.
And then the other one you saidis we're writing for the truth.
So that is, I'm assuming we havethat truth, we own it, and we're
sharing that with other people.
SPEAKER_01 (11:15):
And it's not a set thing, right?
Every single person has adifferent truth.
So that's where we get moresubjective.
Exactly.
That's where we get pushback inreviews, which is like, this is
not how a trans woman wouldexist.
And the person's like, this isliterally my identity.
SPEAKER_00 (11:31):
Right.
And I think that's going to bereally helpful for listeners
because a lot of people probablyare writing to that expectation
of, you know, here's kind ofwhat I assume, here's what I'm
reading about.
And that's kind of all theymaybe know how to do because
they don't understand thatthere's another layer to it.
So what would you suggest ifsomeone is they're like, I have
that Vietnamese character, Ihave that neurodivergent
(11:53):
character, whatever it is, andI'm totally doing what you just
said.
And let's pretend, because youalready said we can tap into our
why, like, why are we doing it?
What kind of what kind offraming do we want to have?
What would you then recommend islike their next step?
SPEAKER_01 (12:07):
Well, to give them a hug and like really have them
look within, right?
Why am I doing this?
And if the answer is like, thecharacter came to me.
Oh my gosh, I said that oncewhen one of my writing teachers
asked me why, I was like, Shejust came to me, Vietnamese,
what message?
Yeah.
I want you to just really thinkabout it.
I cannot tell you that youcannot write this person.
(12:29):
That's not my place.
You are the only person who getsto decide what you're going to
write and whatnot.
If you need to write that justfor yourself, that's totally
valid and fine.
It does not have to bepublished.
But if you do publish it, then Iwant you to be ready, uh,
especially in today's day andage, to deal with the
consequences of that.
SPEAKER_00 (12:49):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (12:49):
There's a big, huge, ginormous chance that you will
get canceled.
There's even people who areadjacent to that kind of thing
that they're writing about cansometimes get a lot of backlash,
which is really wild to me.
I know it's bigger in why thanadult, but we're still seeing it
a lot.
SPEAKER_00 (13:08):
So, how do we start to recognize that we're writing
maybe for what we think weshould do for this typical
mainstream gaze versus likewhat's true truly on our heart?
And I know you're gonna say partof it is tapping into that why.
Is there anything I actuallywasn't gonna say?
SPEAKER_01 (13:22):
Oh, you weren't?
Okay.
I want you should know your whyfor sure.
But I want you to ask yourselfwho is your imagined reader?
And then are you assuming theyshare your experience or are you
anticipating their confusion orjudgment?
And so some signs that you'reslipping into that like
translator mode, you might beover-explaining cultural
references or neurodivergentbehaviors.
(13:43):
I saw something recently wherean author had a foreword that
was talking about how she used alot of language from queer
culture in like the 80s and howthe word dike, for example, was
like a an identity and a term ofadherence.
Where now it's more a littlenegative.
Right.
People still use it, right?
It's so the community alone isso pocketed and nuanced, and
(14:07):
everybody feels differentlyabout everything.
So when you are writing aspecific character or identity,
or even more than one specificone, really hone in on what
their experience is and wherethey exist and live in the
world.
A lot of pushback with thatwriter having that forward was
that she didn't need to do that.
It was like distilling the artdown and like not trusting the
(14:30):
reader.
So I want you to trust yourreader way more than you think
you should.
SPEAKER_00 (14:35):
And that's that's interesting, that example too,
because it's almost like who wasthat ideal reader, right?
And for her, probably the if youasked her what's on her heart,
it would be people like her.
And people like her wouldn'tneed that explanation, right?
Exactly.
SPEAKER_01 (14:50):
And it is okay if as the reader, we don't know what's
going on right away.
We can be confused for a minute,it's not a big deal.
You know how many times readinglike Tolkien of we're confused
and we just like wait until itmakes sense?
We can trust the author to giveus the context.
SPEAKER_00 (15:08):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So I love that.
Okay, so you've given like mybrain latches onto frameworks
and you've given the two reallygood things I love, which is the
are you writing for theexpectation or from your truth?
And then you said, Are youwriting from a place of
explaining away confusion oravoiding judgment?
And I'm just gonna repeat thoseuntil the end of time because
they're so good.
I'm so glad.
So what a couple more I know youhave a couple more.
SPEAKER_01 (15:30):
Yeah.
So are you glossing overemotional complexity?
And I'm gonna talk a lot moreabout emotional complexity and
stuff later, but just is theemotional truth of your reader
and their experience just beingglossed over?
Are we just focusing on likemaking sure someone understands
this from an outsideperspective?
Are we adding background thatfeels like justification rather
(15:52):
than storytelling?
One of the common traps that wesee with feedback is well, well,
clarity, right?
Clarity is such a big thing.
We want to make sure that thescene is clear.
Uh, that can mean anything.
And sometimes, even as aneditor, we don't explain it well
enough.
And authors a lot of times willhear explain this for a white,
neurotypical or normativeaudience, even when that's not
(16:14):
what they're being asked to do.
Uh, so if you have any feedbackthat's like asking for clarity,
I want you to like break thatdown even more and think about
what you want that phrase orscene or or whatever it is to
actually do, and then decidewhat that clarity looks like for
you.
SPEAKER_00 (16:30):
Yeah.
That's interesting because I dosee that a lot.
I have a membership, and themembers in there will sometimes
share feedback that they'vegotten from beta readers or
editors or whoever.
And the comments that they'llget will say something like, I
don't know what you mean here.
Can you be a little more clear?
And sometimes that's the rightquestion to ask.
But what I prefer as an editoris I say, Is your reader going
(16:51):
to understand this?
And maybe I just don't, youknow?
So it's it's you're totallyright about what does that
question really mean?
What does that feedback reallymean?
And do you want to be moreclear?
Because maybe you don't,literally.
SPEAKER_01 (17:03):
Yeah.
Most of the time you actuallydon't.
Yeah.
But sometimes you do.
And I love that.
Is your reader going tounderstand?
I think it's funny because whenwe're giving feedback, even as
writers, we are thinking aboutour kind of experience in that
single place in time that we'rereading the story, right?
And so I will read a book a fewtimes when I'm giving feedback
(17:26):
to kind of see how somethingsits after I have the rest of
the book or how it sat beforeand like what the disparity is
between that and what the bookis actually trying to do.
And I think when writers aregetting feedback from editors or
beta readers or whatever, theykind of just say, that's gold.
I'm gonna take whatever that isinstead of holding the whole
(17:46):
story and what it's trying todo.
I know it's really hard.
This isn't easy.
SPEAKER_00 (17:51):
It's really hard.
That's also why likeprofessional developmental
editors and line editors and allthat are actually like really
worth investment, right?
But and yeah, I think like ifyou're someone who can't afford
that, that's totally fine too.
If you have beta readers, justknow kind of what we're both
saying is that sometimes thefeedback is asking you to put in
stuff that your ideal reader orwho you're writing for isn't
(18:13):
going to need or want.
So it all goes back to like whoyou're writing for, why you're
writing this, and I think umexactly what you said in those
two frameworks earlier, writingfor the expectation, the truth,
you know, all that.
SPEAKER_01 (18:24):
I just want to reiterate that you have to trust
your reader and trust yourselfwhen you're writing with your
community in mind.
SPEAKER_00 (18:32):
Yeah.
Plus, I think like the biggestthing to realize there is that
your reader wants to have thatexperience of who your character
is.
So give them that experience anddon't worry about like watering
it down or, you know, glossingover it or anything like that.
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah.
And so speaking of that, I knowyou have some practical
strategies to help us writersavoid overexplaining,
(18:54):
flattening, translating culturalexperiences or neurodivergent
experiences.
Talk to us about those becausewe love practical strategies.
SPEAKER_01 (19:01):
The first one is gonna shock you.
You're gonna be blown over.
Ready, everybody.
Literally.
I'm gonna give you permission towrite the stereotype first.
So back in grad school, I was ina workshop for graphic novels of
all places.
I don't even write graphicnovels, but I knew I wanted to
be in the room with Jean Yang.
He wrote American Born Chineseand and everything.
(19:23):
And he was like, write thestereotype first.
I do that in my first drafts.
He's like, I'm Chinese, I writeso many Chinese stereotypes.
Because when you're censoringyourself, you're not gonna get
that specificity and detail thatyou need to make the book good.
And you're also going to tieyourself in the knot to try to
get it right because you care somuch about getting it right.
So write the stereotype.
(19:44):
You can edit it later, but youhave to get something on the
page first.
And I want you can like callthis your for me draft if you
want.
You can call it whatever youwant, but it can be called a for
me draft if you choose.
And then once you get thatemotional truth on the page, you
can edit it with all of thatintention later on.
Yeah.
Love that.
Also, when we think about ourown identities, sometimes we
(20:05):
think about it throughstereotypes, like who exists in
this world too.
So just get it out and thendecide what's worth leaving on
the page.
So you might leave thestereotype and then have another
character confront it and callit out.
You might not.
It totally depends on whatyou're trying to do.
SPEAKER_00 (20:19):
Yeah, I love that.
Okay, so what's the secondpractical strategy?
SPEAKER_01 (20:23):
The second one is to trust your audience again.
So important, we're saying ittwice.
Some readers are gonna missthings um because they're
reading fast.
I don't know, they're busy.
They're gonna miss it.
The biggest one recently was thefourth wing deaf character.
Everybody was like, oh my god, Ididn't know she was deaf.
Right.
And I'm like, it's on the page.
It's totally on the page.
Yeah.
(20:43):
I like went back and I was like,it's right there on the page.
Right, just Cinia is her name.
Exactly.
And so we're not writing to theperson who's gonna miss the
thing.
We're writing to the person whodoesn't need us to explain it
17,000 times.
So trust your audience.
SPEAKER_00 (20:58):
Okay, let's pause there for a second because
imagine that you are someone whois deaf and you're reading that
and you're like, I feel seenbecause this person's existing
just as they are.
There's no over-explanation.
There's no like, hey, look atme, right?
There's no look at me, I'm theauthor putting in this deaf
character.
She's just a person in theworld, just like real life.
Right.
Exactly.
Yeah, I love that.
(21:19):
Okay.
SPEAKER_01 (21:19):
Yeah.
And then I want you to askyourself, who am I trying to
protect or appease with thisexplanation?
If the answer is a mainstreamaudience, I'm not actually
writing for, then that's a cue.
Right.
I love that question.
Can you say that one more time?
SPEAKER_00 (21:34):
Who am I trying to protect or appease with this
explanation?
I love that.
That's such a good filter too,because I I feel like with the
writers I work with, most of thetime that's what they're trying
to do protect or appease.
Yeah.
At some point, you're trying toprotect yourself.
Totally.
SPEAKER_01 (21:51):
Yeah, once you let go of that, you get to a deeper
truth, right?
Exactly.
And you write better.
So I love that.
Okay.
And then the last one is toread, read mentor text, read
authors who are doing whatyou're trying to do.
And then, you know, go fromthere.
A big book I want everybody toread.
It's not a big book.
A book I want everybody to readis Yellowface.
Yes.
(22:11):
I think that's a good thing.
That's a great example.
Yeah.
The biggest thing that you cando as a writer is read.
And I know so many writers, Iask them, like, what's a book
you've read recently?
And they're like, Oh, I don'tread.
And I'm like, oh my God, don'tread.
And so I get a lot of homeworkto go read, especially in your
genre, but also outside of yourgenre.
You have to read to write.
SPEAKER_00 (22:32):
Yeah, totally.
I love that.
And so I know a question I getasked a lot is like, okay, let's
say I want to write a characterwho's not like me, who is
marginalized in whatever way.
And the instinct is always like,I'm going to do the research.
Maybe I'm going to go onInstagram and I'm going to find
some people and get to know themor whatever.
And you're kind of adding one tothe list of read books that do
(22:53):
it well.
SPEAKER_01 (22:53):
Is there anything else you want to tell listeners
about like how to go aboutstarting this other than what we
I think there are probably abillion different touch points,
but one that I would recommendis the book Writing an Identity
Not Your Own.
It's a very thick book.
It's a this is a topic that wecould talk about for years and
years.
So that book, I think, was areally good.
(23:15):
We just read it in my my bookclub for the residency.
And it was interesting because Ithink you go into it being like,
all right, I'm ready for myguide of how to do this.
And the book was basicallysaying a lot of like what we're
we're saying today, right?
Like there is no guide.
You have to take likeaccountability for your art and
really think about it andanalyze it and come from a place
(23:37):
of intention and care and love.
And then remember your name ison the cover.
So like your editor is not goingto get the backlash, the
publisher is not going to getthe backlash, the author on the
books.
Even if you hire sensitivityreaders and do all of the
things, like it might have somepushback.
And what we do with thatpushback too, we don't say like,
(23:57):
oh my God, I did all the thingsI was supposed to do.
We just say like try harder nextyear.
SPEAKER_00 (24:03):
And I think, you know, I can imagine people
listening and they're like,Well, I don't want to try.
This sounds scary.
Why would you recommend notgoing with that mindset?
SPEAKER_01 (24:11):
So you could do that.
I know a lot of writers do.
Yeah.
Um, but you exist in this worldwith people who are not like
you.
And there are so many thingsthat have done that before that
I want you to just be better.
There's yeah, be a better human.
SPEAKER_00 (24:27):
Rise of the challenge, too, you know.
SPEAKER_01 (24:29):
Yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_00 (24:31):
Such a quality challenge, and it's such a, like
you said, a way to startthinking outside ourselves and
become better humans and havemore empathy.
And, you know.
So I like to get to the root oflike, don't let the fear stop
you.
It's a very worthwhile endeavor.
And a lot of the instincts ofwhy people want to write from a
different perspective or fordifferent gaze are very valid.
(24:51):
So it's like, you know, take thefear and do it anyway.
Do it anyway and do it withcare.
SPEAKER_01 (24:56):
And we're not telling you in this conversation
to like go write a characterwho's different from you as your
main character.
These are side characters,they're people who just exist in
the world happily.
Like Justinia was, I was gonnasay she's a small character,
she's kind of a large, importantcharacter in the book.
Exactly.
And like she is obviouslydifferent from Rebecca Yaros.
(25:18):
And so there are so manydifferent types of people in the
world, obviously.
You can't put all of them inyour book, but the ones you do
put in your book, I want them tobe intentional and to make sense
and to, you know, be from aplace of love and care.
SPEAKER_00 (25:33):
Right.
Yeah, I love that.
And also like thinking of FourthWing, too.
That's uh the main character hasum EDS.
And that's like a I've heardseen a lot on the internet about
people who are reallyappreciative and they're like,
wow, I could see myself in that.
And it's so cool to see a girlriding dragons with EDS, you
know?
And like that's the pathway.
Yes, and that's the power oflike putting yourself in your
(25:55):
vulnerability, and what a greatexperience to have at your
disposal to reach other people,I think.
SPEAKER_01 (26:02):
And I think too, if you're not what you would call
marginalized, I like to sayoutdoor recognized, yeah,
personally.
But if you're not, you havethings about you that are
different from other people.
You're not a cookie cuttergingerbread man, right?
Like you have a history and alife and emotions and things
(26:22):
that you care about andobsessions and all of that
stuff.
So I don't want you to limityourself to your, I was gonna
say boring, your boring lightstrength escape.
SPEAKER_00 (26:31):
Yeah.
I mean, because that's whatmakes fiction so cool too, is
when we read that trueexperience, no matter what that
experience looks like.
So yeah, I love that.
And that's people always um citethat quote of like, write what
you know, and they're like,Well, I'm not a neuroscientist.
And it's like, okay, not that.
It's more about your experienceand emotionality and all that
stuff.
Exactly.
Um, but you also talk about soemotional clarity and like the
(26:54):
structural intention of thingsbeing more important or like
more than just marketabilitywhen writing stories that can't
just be simplified to thatstraight white male case.
SPEAKER_01 (27:06):
This one is probably a little bit more complicated,
but I want you to think aboutemotional clarity as twofold.
It's both how the characterfeels, and we have things like
the emotional thesaurus to helpus with this, which is a super
great tool, but it's also howthe reader feels as they move
through the story.
So I want you to ask, what isthis story emotionally doing to
(27:28):
the reader?
Is it offering catharsis,solidarity, discomfort, urgency,
hope?
Who is the emotional arcactually for?
And um, an example about this isI had a client who is writing a
memoir about infant loss.
And it's gonna read verydifferently, right?
Depending on the audience.
Is it a hand reaching out toother grieving parents, or is it
(27:48):
bearing witness for those whohave never known this pain?
Because when you're bearingwitness, you get to go to those
really dark, horrible emotionalplaces.
And when it's a hand reachingout to other grieving parents,
you need to really center thathope and like we're gonna get
through this kind of angle.
Yeah, different.
Very, very different.
And so think about that when youare centering your story, right?
(28:11):
So when we talk about queerbooks, a lot of the reasons that
we're like, you can't kill yourqueer character is because when
queer characters startedappearing in books, they were
killed off.
It was either a coming outstory, a conversion story, or
they had to die at the end.
Yeah.
And so it doesn't mean you can'tkill your queer character.
I have like queer characters diein my book, but like every
(28:33):
character is queer in my book.
So someone's gonna die.
It's a gauntlet novel.
Um, and so I really want you tothink about where you're like
the history of it almost, andlike why we feel the way we feel
as a reader.
Not which character is importanttoo, but as the reader.
SPEAKER_00 (28:52):
Yeah.
That's super interesting becausejust tying it back to Fourth
Wing, we could have had a verydifferent reading experience if
we felt really bad for Violet.
And instead, by the end, thereader journey is we're inspired
by her.
We're like, look how powerfulshe is, despite this physical,
you know, limitation or whateveryou want to call it.
So yeah, it's very interestingto think about it that way.
SPEAKER_01 (29:11):
Yeah.
And each genre, right, is goingto have a different entry way
into that.
Because this is a fantasy bookwhere she gets the hot, awesome
guy.
It's like we're gonna feel androot for her and and yeah, have
all of that.
But if this was, I don't know,without the hot guy, um, maybe
he actually does try to kill herthe whole time.
SPEAKER_00 (29:33):
It'd be a very different book.
Totally.
Yeah, that's so interesting tothink about.
And you could almost think aboutthat in terms of any story that
we're saying, like Yellow Face,that is a great mentor text.
Like if you just think aboutdifferent ways the lens could
have been presented and how theaudience feels, very
interesting.
Right.
And Yellowface, yeah, is such agood example.
I don't want to spoil anythingfor anyone who hasn't read it,
(29:55):
but holy moly, you feel like youare that character and the
immersion is so good.
And I can't imagine a differentlens on that.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (30:04):
And I that's the thing too.
You are the only person who canwrite the book the way that you
write it.
And you will have that lens.
So I want you to like go hard.
Own it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Own it.
And really think about theimpact of it.
And I know it's like, I don'twant to have impact and I don't
want to change the world.
I'm just a person writing mysilly little books.
But also books, when I wasyounger, I was like, I'm gonna
(30:26):
write a book because I wantsomething to live longer than
me.
And I'm like, wow,seven-year-old Tiffany, that's
wow, wow.
But like it's true, right?
They they last long, a longtime.
Today, less so.
They might last a blip becauseso many books are being
published.
But yeah, just think about thatimpact.
And you don't have to be like,okay, the weight of the world is
on my shoulders and andeverything, but come from your
(30:49):
place and intention.
I keep saying intention.
Um, but like really think aboutget that one reader you're
writing for, that one person andhow you want them to feel.
Do you want them to feel held?
Do you want them to feel seen?
And what does that look like?
We have all of these crafttools, right?
Like the order that what theevents are in the story, the
pacing, the narrative frame.
(31:10):
We already talked about POV,talked about all these things.
These are all tools that aregonna guide how a reader feels,
thinks, and metabolizes thestory.
And so I want you to kind ofapproach it from a less linear
way, because when we are writingthese characters with these
complicated lives, we can't havethat simplified storyline.
(31:32):
It's gonna be messy layered,deeply specific and whatnot.
But that is still accessible.
And back to that marketabilityterm we mentioned.
Right.
The more specific and messy andlayered and emotional truths
that we have, the more it'smarketable.
It's like wild how that happens.
SPEAKER_00 (31:52):
Yeah, and it's interesting because you know,
again, we're kind of back tothat point of well, we want to
write books for everybody.
And it's like, that's not theway to go, right?
We want to be specific, we wantto get the emotions in, and it
will find its people.
And then that's how the word ofmouse starts.
And it's like, you're not gonnaget that if you're on the
surface, if you're, you know,not going quite deep into it.
So I think that's a great point.
SPEAKER_01 (32:13):
The stats are kind of wild with how many people
actually read.
I feel like it was like twopercent or something really
depressing.
Yeah, it's six billion people.
That's a lot of people.
Yes.
And then when a book hits abestseller list, that's only
only hundreds of thousands or ormillions or whatever, which is a
small pool of that six billionpeople.
So, what I'm trying to say isyour community is out there,
(32:36):
they want to read books withpeople who are like them in it
and see themselves existing onthe page and not getting killed
off and whatnot for the sake ofthat's what we do.
So, yeah, when we're writing abook, we tend to get really
stuck, especially when we'refacing both personal and
systemic barriers.
(32:56):
So the world right now is stillon fire.
It has been the whole time I'veowned my business, which is
funny.
So we have outside forces,homophobia, transphobia, racism,
ableism among many more.
And these obstacles are shapingin like how we view ourselves
and our work.
And so I created a workbook tohelp you uncover mindset blocks
(33:18):
and explore the beliefs thatmight be standing in your way.
It could be more systemic or itcould be personal, it could be
just not having the time towrite, which is the biggest one.
It's so funny how when you havewriting as your full-time job,
you still don't have time towrite because you find the
excuses because it's notactually the problem.
Um, and so this workbook isgonna help you with exercises
(33:41):
and reflective prompts andwhatnot to help you reconnect
with the heart of your creativejourney and like honor your
goals and your process becauseyour process is gonna look
completely different from minebecause we have completely
different lives.
SPEAKER_00 (33:54):
Right.
And to clarify, is this forevery single writer listening?
Do you or is it just for peoplewho are experiencing the
challenges you mentioned?
SPEAKER_01 (34:02):
It is for every single writer.
SPEAKER_00 (34:04):
Good.
All right, and so we let's see,we have a link for that uh that
we will put in the show notes,but also where can people find
you around the internet?
SPEAKER_01 (34:12):
I am on Instagram, mostly at Virgin Design and
Editorial.
That's the main one.
If you would like to join mywriting community, the
residency, we have a free trackas well as different paid
levels.
Um, so you could come as avisitor and check it out and see
what's up.
We're all really nice in there.
And those are the main places Ihang out.
SPEAKER_00 (34:34):
Awesome.
Well, we will link to all thatin the show notes.
And thank you so much, Tippany,for sharing your wisdom, your
experience.
I think this is gonna be alistener favorite episode.
So thank you so much.
Thank you for having me.
All right, so that's it for thisepisode of the Fiction Writing
Made Easy Podcast.
Head over to savannaGilbo.comforward slash podcast for the
(34:54):
complete show notes, includingthe resources I mentioned today,
as well as bonus materials tohelp you implement what you've
learned.
And if you're ready to get morepersonalized guidance for your
specific writing stage, whetheryou're just starting out, stuck
somewhere in the middle of adraft, drowning in revisions, or
getting ready to publish, takemy free 30-second quiz at
savannaGilbo.com forward slashquiz.
(35:16):
You'll get a customized podcastplaylist that'll meet you right
where you're at and help you getto your next big milestone.
Last but not least, make sure tofollow this podcast in your
podcast player of choice becauseI'll be back next week with
another episode full ofactionable tips, tools, and
strategies to help you become abetter writer.
Until then, happy writing.
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Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com