December 23, 2025 • 40 mins
Learn how a busy parent finished a novel by following a clear roadmap that made it possible to pause, return, and keep moving forward.
Between raising four kids, navigating pregnancy and newborn life, and juggling everything that comes with being a busy parent, Madi didn't exactly have ideal writing conditions. And yet, she finished her novel.
In today’s episode, I’m sitting down with Madi, a former Notes to Novel student, to talk about what it actually looked like to write a book in the middle of real life. She didn’t have unlimited time or perfect routines. What she had was a clear plan, realistic expectations, and a way to keep moving forward even when progress felt slow.
Madi shares the mindset shifts that helped her stop waiting for the right time, how outlining gave her momentum instead of boxing her in, and why having a process made it possible to pause without quitting when life demanded her attention.
If you’ve ever wanted to write and finish your novel but feel too busy right now, this conversation is for you.
Here’s what we cover:
[05:15] The mindset shift that helped Madi stop treating her novel like a hobby and start making real progress toward a finished draft
[09:00] How outlining gave Madi clarity and confidence without killing creativity or locking her into a rigid plot structure
[07:15] What writing a novel looked like during pregnancy, newborn life, and four kids—plus the simple routine that kept her moving forward
[14:50] The step-by-step editing process that turned Madi's first draft into a contest finalist manuscript without burnout
[24:15] How Madi went from querying literary agents to landing her dream agent at a top Christian Fiction agency
If you're craving proof that it's possible to write a novel alongside a full, busy life, Madi's story will show you exactly what that can look like.
🔗 Links mentioned in this episode:
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_01 (00:37):
I knew where I wanted to get and I didn't
necessarily have a time frame.
I gave myself tons of grace, butI knew I want to have a finished
book and I want to publish it,whatever that ended up looking
like.
And so these are the steps thatI have to take to get there.
And then I just worked backwardsand put that in there.
And I think absolutely anyonecan do that.
And I'm so excited with how myjourney has gone and I'm so
(00:58):
honored, but I'm not so muchbetter.
I'm not like a specifically justreally gifted and talented
writer, and it's amazing.
I mean, I had never written abook before this.
So I think just to be encouragedthat this time last year I
didn't even have a finisheddraft yet.
And now I have an agent, mydream agent.
SPEAKER_00 (01:17):
Welcome to the Fiction Writing Made Easy
podcast.
My name is Savannah Gilbo, andI'm here to help you write a
story that works.
I want to prove to you thatwriting a novel doesn't have to
be overwhelming.
So each week I'll bring you abrand new episode with simple,
actionable, and step-by-stepstrategies that you can
implement in your writing rightaway.
Whether you're brand new towriting or more of a seasoned
(01:38):
author looking to improve yourcraft, this podcast is for you.
So pick up a pen and let's getstarted.
In today's episode, we're goingbehind the scenes of One
Writer's Journey to hear how shewent from a 30,000-word draft
that didn't work to signing withher dream literary agent.
My guest name is Maddie Unruh,and she's a mama four, a
(01:59):
freelance copywriter, and afull-time volunteer at a local
youth ministry.
So to say Maddie is busy wouldbe a total understatement.
In this episode, she's going toshare what it was like to feel
completely overwhelmed by allthe writing advice out there.
She's going to share why herfirst attempt at drafting fell
apart, and what finally clickedthat helped her finish a
76,000-word draft in less thansix months, all while raising
(02:23):
four kids.
Maddie's also going to sharewhat it was like to pitch agents
at a writing conference, how itfelt when every single one of
them requested her fullmanuscript, and what happened
when she received three offersof representation.
So if you're a busy parent orsomeone who's tried to write a
novel before and it just didn'twork out, then this episode is
for you.
(02:43):
So without further ado, let'sdive right into my conversation
with Maddie Unru.
Hi, Maddie.
Welcome to the Fiction WritingMade Easy Podcast.
I'm so excited to have you heretoday.
Thank you so much.
I'm so honored and excited to beon.
Tell listeners a little bitabout who you are, what you do,
and things like that.
SPEAKER_01 (03:00):
Yeah, I'm Maddie.
I'm a contemporary romanceauthor, but I work full-time
with a youth-oriented ministryin Huntington Beach, which is so
much fun.
And then I am also a freelancecopywriter on the side.
And we have four kids.
Our oldest is seven.
We have twins who are five, andour youngest is two.
SPEAKER_00 (03:18):
And so you said you copyright.
What made you want to writefiction, or was this like a
lifelong thing for you?
SPEAKER_01 (03:23):
Yeah, writing fiction has always been a
lifelong dream for me for sure.
Um, I was really, I've alwaysloved to read, I think most of
us writers love to read, theHarry Potter series, Hunger
Games, a book called RedeemingLove.
Some books like that inspired mea lot, even in elementary school
and middle school.
I always knew I wanted to writefiction someday, but it always
(03:44):
felt like a someday kind ofdream.
And I always felt likeeventually I'll get around to
that.
So to actually be taking stepsin that direction is so
exciting.
SPEAKER_00 (03:51):
Yeah.
Talk to me about your firstcouple of times, like trying to
actually realize this dream.
Did you go out and research allthe things like most of us do?
Like, what did you do to makethis happen?
SPEAKER_01 (04:00):
No, I probably should have, but I just sat down
one day and was like, today'sthe day I write my book, um,
which was great.
But I wrote, I want to say like30,000 words, and then felt like
I don't know what's happening inthis story.
We're just kind of not reallydoing anything.
I have big long scenes of peoplejust sort of sitting and
thinking, and I think all thenormal things you do the first
(04:23):
time.
I thought I was gonna be apantser, probably just because
that sounded easier to me.
So I'm like, we'll just seewhere the story takes me.
But the story didn't take meanywhere.
And then somebody else hadrecommended that I dive into
podcasts and books and sort offigure that out.
So I paused my book for a while,found a few different podcasts,
found a few different um booksto read.
(04:43):
It's really overwhelming whenyou first start researching how
to write a book.
There was so much information.
But um, when I found yourpodcast, which I really just
came across at random, the waythat you were teaching was so
simple and clear.
And there was like clear stepsand expectations and frameworks,
but it wasn't super rigid.
(05:04):
And it just like made so muchsense to my brain.
So I paused my 30,000 draft ofnothing and binge listened to
literally all of your episodes.
It probably took a month to getthrough them all.
And then I started all the wayover and then started my whole
book over.
And it went a lot better thattime.
SPEAKER_00 (05:21):
That's so funny.
I love that.
And it's so funny you say about30,000 words because if we
listen to kind of all these paststudent spotlight episodes, it's
usually around 30,000, 35,000words that things start breaking
down.
SPEAKER_01 (05:32):
Yeah, I was like, because that got me through act
one where you have all the ideasand you're going, and then you
sort of, I mean, I didn't knowit was called act two, but
you're entering that, and I'mlike, um, I know what's gonna
happen at the climax.
SPEAKER_00 (05:43):
Yeah, you're like, but I don't know how to get
there.
So we'll see.
Yeah.
Um, okay, so that's awesome.
And then yeah, we met in I thinkJanuary of 2023 when you joined
Notes to Novel, and you're like,okay, I'm gonna take myself
seriously.
We had you on the podcast beforeyou submitted a little clip and
you were like, I decided to givemyself permission to take myself
seriously as a writer.
So talk about that a little bitbecause I know there are busy
(06:05):
moms and dads out there who werelike, should I spend the time?
Should I take time away from mykids?
Should I spend the money, right?
Should I invest in this?
How did you deal with that?
SPEAKER_01 (06:14):
Yeah, it was well, I mean, we have four little kids.
I think in January, right when Istarted Notes Novel, I found out
I was pregnant with my fourthbaby.
And so money's really tight.
It was a big undertaking to signup for that.
But I just had a goodconversation with my husband.
He's amazing, he's supersupportive.
And he's like, if this is whatGod's called you to do, if this
is what you were made for, ofcourse we're gonna figure that
(06:37):
out.
And so it just felt like thisshift from kind of a hobby of
like, I think I might write abook.
I think that would be somethingfun to do to for investing in
this financially, which was abig deal for us, as well as just
the time that it would take togo through the whole course.
And I already knew how long ithad taken me to write 30,000
words of nothing.
So to understand what I wasabout to sign up for when I'm
(06:59):
pregnant with our fourth baby,it felt like going ahead and
moving forward with that wasjust a big step in this is an
investment in something that Ibelieve I'm meant to do long
term.
And so it's worth investing in.
And if I'm going to invest init, I'm going to see it through.
SPEAKER_00 (07:14):
And I love that.
I think you have definitely havethat like tenacity that people
always ask me, like, whatseparates the writers who finish
from the ones that don't.
And I'm like, you just have tobe willing to make it work, no
matter the speed bumps.
And I'm sure there were speedbumps along the way.
One of them is ditching a30,000-word draft.
That was painful.
Yeah, it's always painful.
But I'm sure in hindsight,you're like, thank goodness I
(07:34):
did that because look at where Ilanded.
Um, which is spoiler alert,she's landed her dream agent.
We'll talk about that later.
Yes.
But what was it like goingthrough the course and talk
about like how did you managesetting aside time?
I'm sure it was great that yourfamily was very supportive.
But you know, did you have tolike block out time in your
calendar?
How'd you how'd you manage that?
SPEAKER_01 (07:55):
Yeah, my family is very supportive, but I was still
pregnant.
My twins were still two, and myoldest was still, gosh, he was
probably four.
So no one was even in schoolyet.
So as much as my husband's likeall in, I'm still home with the
kids uh 247, which is the best.
I love doing that, but itdoesn't super lend itself to
like quiet blocks of creativity.
(08:16):
Um I did most of the class onaudio form because um if you
sign up for the course, there isvideo and you can watch and go
along that way, but there's alsoum just like a podcast
basically.
So I would take all the kids tothe park and have my have one
AirPod in and be taking notes ona Word document on my phone.
So I listen to most of thecourse that way.
(08:37):
And then I also just get upearly.
That's how I've done all mywriting, and that's how I did
that course too.
So not every day, but at leastthree days a week, I would get
up at 4:30 or 5 a.m.
and just sit and do the stuffthat I had to be sitting to do.
And that worked really well forme.
I know some people are nightowls, and so it's better for
them if like after the kids arein bed to have that time.
(08:58):
But my brain is like uselessafter like 3 p.m.
every day.
So I found that just biting thebullet and getting up early
worked and um it was really fun.
I ended up really enjoying thosetimes.
It's quiet.
I'm like fresh and creative.
I would drink like three cups ofcoffee every morning, though.
By the time I'm done, I'm likegetting the kids up, my heart's
pounding.
I'm like, I'm afraid today, fullof anxiety.
(09:20):
But anyway, it was really fun.
SPEAKER_00 (09:22):
Oh no, yeah, anxiety is never good.
But I mean, look what came fromit, I guess.
Not that we're gonna recommendeveryone go drink three cups of
coffee.
Maybe chai tea.
Yeah, maybe chai tea or greentea or something.
But okay, so you set aside thetime, you made it work at the
park, you got up early, you didall the things.
When you were in the course, Iknow you kind of came at this as
I think I'm a pantser.
That sounds more comfortable forme.
(09:43):
And then I know that you kind ofdid a hard pivot and you started
loving outlining.
So talk about that or any otheraha moments that really like
helped you get to the end ofthat draft.
SPEAKER_01 (09:53):
Yeah, it's really your process just was so right
for my personality and my brain.
And so it felt like a clearroadmap without ever feeling
super rigid because I amdefinitely a rule follower.
So if someone had given me youneed to do all these things, I
would do them, but I feel likepanicked by them sometimes.
And so you're so great atreminding, you know, this
(10:15):
basically I would tell myself alot, this outline serves me.
I don't serve the outline.
So I change it at any time.
I'm not like a slave to thisthing, it's just part of the
process.
And I found it really fun to becreative on the outline and to
test drive different ideaswithout the pressure of, I mean,
because I had already written30,000 words.
(10:35):
So I know it happens, or Ialready knew it happened if I
just followed an idea whereverit led and then it didn't work.
So doing that on the outlinestarted to feel a lot safer.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (10:45):
Cause you're dealing with less words and pages and
all that.
SPEAKER_01 (10:49):
Yeah.
And then because my writingsessions were short and I had to
do them at the specific times,it I just didn't have the time
and space to sit there and tryto think up, what should I write
today?
Like it just needed to be, thisis the next scene.
I'm going to write it.
Um, yeah, which was great.
SPEAKER_00 (11:05):
Yeah.
And so what Maddie's talkingabout that we do in the course
is we we map out the outline andthen it changes how you show up
to your desk because instead ofsaying, well, I just wrote scene
seven and now I have to figureout for 30 minutes what happens
in scene eight, you already knowbecause of your outline.
So talk about like what was yourtimeline like because your baby
showed up somewhere in themiddle of your first draft.
SPEAKER_01 (11:27):
Yes, my baby showed up.
So I think that I was trying tolook over before we recorded
this so I'd have accuratenumbers.
I wrote act one, probably inlike February of that year.
And the act one was a lot thesame as I had done for the
original draft, but I had somenew subplots and things to weave
through.
So I wrote act one in a fewweeks and then just morning
sickness and you know, wasreally tired at the end of that
(11:50):
pregnancy.
So wasn't able to get up for mywork sessions, and then I had a
newborn.
I took like a year and a halfbreak away from my book.
But what was so helpful is Inever one time felt like I
didn't finish that or like I'veabandoned it.
I always knew it's there, it'swaiting for me.
I have the whole book plannedout.
I know how to make thatprogress.
I'm just gonna pop back in um assoon as he's sleeping through
(12:12):
the night.
And I did, and it was totallyfine.
It was funny because one day Ijust realized, hey, he's
sleeping 12 hours, I'm back.
And so I just opened my computerand started again.
And then I had finished my bookby um December.
SPEAKER_00 (12:25):
Yeah.
So I think you said it was likesix months of total writing
time, which is crazy.
SPEAKER_01 (12:29):
I think it was less when I went back and watched it.
SPEAKER_00 (12:31):
I think it was a little less of actual like days
that I sat at my computer.
That's amazing.
And I love, like, I'm sure thereare moms and dads out there that
are just listening to you,going, wow, the the idea that
you could have this outline thatyou still loved when you sat
back down, even though you mighthave had new ideas and things
like that, but your story didn'treally change in a fundamental
way.
And it was there waiting foryou.
(12:52):
And you picked up and you had abunch of steam, and then you
finished and you ended up withwhat was it like a 76,000-word,
pretty well fleshed out draft?
SPEAKER_01 (13:00):
Yeah, I think my first draft was 76,000.
SPEAKER_00 (13:03):
Yeah.
And so when I know you said whenyou dipped back in after your
baby came and you took that yearand a half off, I think you said
you re-listened to the course.
So pretty much the same way youlistened to it the first time.
Yeah.
And then you just kind ofrefamiliarized yourself and dug
back into the outline.
SPEAKER_01 (13:18):
Yeah.
And I think it also helped thatthroughout that break I took,
um, I continued listening toyour podcast episodes as they
came out.
And I can't remember, I think Ijoined the story lab once I got
back to my computer.
It was just kind of a fresh waveof telling myself I'm doing this
again, um, which really helped.
But continuing to listen helpedme feel like I hadn't ever
(13:39):
abandoned it.
I was like marinating on newideas and biting my time.
And I was listening to lots ofbooks in my genre during that
break.
So that helped a lot.
But yeah, then when I was ready,I re-listened to the course the
same way I had the first time.
And then I just started againand finished.
SPEAKER_00 (13:55):
And that's amazing.
And one thing, because you youmentioned genre.
Um, and I know you write closeddoor sweet romance with a
Christian angle to it.
Was there any challenge likeadapting the genre cheat sheets
and the guidance in the courseto your specific genre?
SPEAKER_01 (14:09):
Oh, no, not at all.
I feel like that's what I loveabout the way that you describe
genre is you you have yourromance genre outline, but that
could literally work for aChristian fiction romance, which
is what I wrote, or a romanticyor a spicy romance, or a
romantic sci-fi.
Like it's just so broad.
And you're good at usingdifferent examples, which really
(14:31):
helped because it's like I thinkyou had Twilight on there and
Pride and Prejudice, and thosecouldn't be any more different
books.
So it just helped to be likewhat's necessary in a romance
genre is gonna be necessary inany romance.
And then I get to add the faithelements because that's my
niche.
SPEAKER_00 (14:46):
Yeah, which is so cool.
And we'll talk about that alittle bit more in a second.
But let's go back to you had thefinished draft, and then you
were like, all right, now I needto edit this thing because I
know I want to pursuetraditional publishing, right?
That was your goal from day one.
SPEAKER_01 (15:00):
Yeah, I was really open to indie publishing.
I think because I had built apretty good following on
Bookstagram, I was like, hey,indie publishing could be, I
mean, any publishing can be avalid option for anyone, but um,
marketing didn't seem as scarybecause I had a an in with my
audience.
So I was very like, I wanted tobe prepared for traditional
(15:20):
publishing and I'm gonna queryagents I would be really excited
to work with.
And if something works out withthem, then that's amazing.
And if not, I can move forwardon my own, was kind of how I
felt.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (15:30):
Okay, so tell me what editing was like with that
in mind.
SPEAKER_01 (15:33):
Yes, I mean, I just followed, like I said, I love, I
love a rule to follow, I love abox to put myself in.
So I followed the exactframework.
I took my break, I reread mydraft, and that was like a
hilarious up and downexperience.
So I'd be sitting there like,this is just amazing.
I can't believe I wrote this inthe very next scene.
You're like, well, it's been funto pretend I was gonna be a
(15:56):
writer, and that's all.
Um, but I reread the wholething.
I kept, I printed it out, whichwas really fun.
That just made it feel real tohold all these pages I'd
written.
And I kept a document open andwrote down all my ideas and all
my thoughts because of theoutline um that I had pressure
tested pretty well, and becauseof all the work we had done in
(16:19):
your course on learning how towrite a scene.
The first draft was in prettygood shape.
So that was really fun.
The story level edit, which Idid first, uh, really only took
like maybe a month because thestory had worked pretty well.
There was a couple things thatas I reread it, was like, that's
kind of weak.
And can I think of a better wayto do that?
(16:40):
But it wasn't like a convolutedmess.
I it had followed a story arcalready.
That was really helpful.
So the story level edit wasn'ttoo bad.
And then I did a scene leveledit, which was more fun for me.
And then I got beta readers,which was um so helpful.
And the beta readers helped medo another story level edit
(17:01):
based off of their feedback,which I think made the draft
like a thousand times stronger.
And then I did a line leveledit, which is my favorite.
SPEAKER_00 (17:08):
Oh, interesting.
I wouldn't have guessed thatfrom you, but that's funny.
Okay, so you said, because Ithink there are people with that
their bells are probably goingoff right now listening to you
talk about this.
You said you wrote this draft inless than six months.
And it was actually like, yeah,there were parts where you're
like, oh my God, I can't believeI wrote this.
This is crazy.
But overall it worked.
And I think there's this mythout there that the faster you
(17:30):
go, the worse your draft isgoing to be.
But you're literally proof thatthat's not true.
So can you just talk about thata little bit?
SPEAKER_01 (17:37):
Yeah, totally.
Um yeah, I think that the fasterI went, the lower quality the
writing was.
And I had to be okay with that.
Is these aren't prettysentences.
I'm not like doing my bestmetaphors, which is probably why
I liked the line editing, isbecause then I got to be like, I
know the story is good, so Iknow I'm not wasting time making
this sense pretty.
Um, so I enjoyed that.
(17:57):
But the faster I went, the worsemaybe my writing quality was.
But the story, because I learnedso much about seeing the story
itself was solid.
So I knew um, because of theromance genre conventions and
all those things, what needed tohappen at certain points of the
story.
And so even if I decided lateron a different way to accomplish
(18:18):
that moment, it didn't changethe story arc because we still
had to have our all is lost.
So even if later, and I didlater I decided on a slightly
different all is lost, but thenI didn't have to go back and
change the rest of the book.
I just changed that scene andmaybe one or two around it kind
of thing.
SPEAKER_00 (18:34):
Yeah, which is I love hearing you talk about this
because I do think there's a wayto have this result for
everybody, right?
It's like it just because peoplesay write fast, do a fast draft,
it does not need to be a poorquality draft.
Like Maddie said, the sentencesmight need a little love, but
the story can actually work andread more like a third or fourth
draft in terms of the story.
(18:55):
And then, like you said, you cutdown on your editing time quite
a bit.
And was there anything that kindof stood out for the from the
beta reader feedback that's justworth mentioning?
SPEAKER_01 (19:04):
Yeah, my beta reader feedback was really fun.
So um they they really liked it.
And they weren't, because thesearen't writers, they weren't
necessarily saying, Oh, what agood understanding of scene that
you have, but they they wouldcomment on the pacing feeling
really good and um one thingleading to another.
And it always felt like they'rethey're commenting on narrative
(19:25):
drive, but they didn't have thatterminology.
But they felt like they couldn'tput it down and everything made
sense.
There wasn't random scenes, soit was super encouraging.
SPEAKER_00 (19:34):
That's so fun.
I love that.
And were your beta readerspeople you had met online or who
were they?
SPEAKER_01 (19:40):
Yeah, I found beta readers.
So I run like through myBookstarram a book club, and you
can tell at a book club who hasa really good understanding of
story because they always havegood ideas on like, or they're
pointing out the flaws and theholes in books, and they just
have a good.
So I asked like five or six ofthem if they would be willing to
um read mine.
So a couple were people that Iknew in person, but um, some
(20:01):
were not as well.
SPEAKER_00 (20:02):
That's so fun.
I love that.
Okay, so then let's fastforward.
You edited again um and yousharpened up that story level
edit again, and you went throughthe process.
And then at some point, youdecided to go to a conference
and you had won a contest inhere somewhere.
You also pitched agents.
Talk about this phase, kind ofpre getting the agent you're
with now.
SPEAKER_01 (20:22):
Yeah, so I finished my first draft, like I said, in
December.
And I got an email from like awriter's association that I'm in
about a Genesis contest, whichis for unpublished writers only.
And your book has to be written,but you only submit the first
15.
Pages.
So I'm like, I think I could dothat.
You know, like the book doesn'thave to be perfect.
The book just has to exist.
(20:43):
And the first 15 pages have tobe as perfect as I can make
them.
So I decided to enter thatmostly because you got agent and
publishing house feedback onyour first 15 pages.
So I'm like, that's just like ano later.
Yeah, no loose situation.
So I decided to enter that.
So I my first draft existed, andI took the first 15 pages
(21:05):
through the scene and line leveledit, but ignored the rest of my
book for then.
SPEAKER_00 (21:09):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (21:09):
Submitted to that contest and then just went back
to editing as normal.
And I found out in uh May, Ithink, that I was a
semifinalist, which was the topseven, which was super exciting.
Um, because there's hundreds ofpeople who enter that contest.
And so my genre was contemporaryromance, which is also a very
big genre.
So I was super honored andexcited about that.
(21:31):
And because I was asemifinalist, I got to go to the
conference where they wouldannounce the finalists and
winners.
And at the conference, you canpitch agents in person.
And so that was exciting andalso scary because I felt like I
really needed to finish my draftreally fast.
And I it pushed definitelypushed up the timeline I
probably would have given myselfto edit my book and be ready for
(21:52):
querying and all that.
But I'm glad it did.
So I went to that conference inSeptember and I ended up filing.
So I did it when, but I ended uptop three, which was exciting.
So cool.
And I pitched to four agents andone publishing house directly.
And they all asked for my fullmanuscript, which was so
affirming and so exciting.
SPEAKER_00 (22:12):
Yeah, that's so cool.
And it's I remember kind ofbecause you're in the story lab,
which for anyone who who'slistening who doesn't know what
that is, that is my membershipwhere notes to novel graduates
go once they're done with thecourse.
And I remember like Maddie wasupdating us in real time, like,
I think I'm gonna submit.
And then it was like, holy cow,I'm a semifinalist.
And then it was, I'm a finalistin real time.
So that was really exciting.
(22:33):
I'm sure people listening arewondering, like, what do you
think it was about your pagesthat made the biggest
difference?
Was it the scene writing?
Was it starting at the rightplace?
Is there what do you think likestood out the most?
SPEAKER_01 (22:44):
Yeah, it's so fun.
I got the feedback from thefirst round and then a second
round because I was a finalist.
And it seems like it was theunderstanding of scene which got
me the most uh kind of ahead ofother applicants.
Because there's so many good andbeautiful writers and there's so
many amazing story ideas outthere.
But learning how to write ascene is really like the
(23:06):
skeleton of your whole book,like you talk about all the
time, and it's that pacing andthat forward momentum and all of
that.
So I think that based off oftheir feedback, that is probably
what did the best.
I don't know exactly becauseit's so subjective.
I'm sure a lot of those bookswere beautiful and wonderfully
written.
SPEAKER_00 (23:22):
But um Yeah, but I'll validate you a little on
that because I also see a lot ofopenings and it's usually, you
know, a lot of info dumping, alot of the common mistakes that
people will make.
And it's like it takes a whileif to get to a scene, if there
even is a scene.
So I definitely would agree.
If if you asked me point blank,I would have said scenes as
well.
But what did it feel like tokind of get that validation on
(23:43):
your idea and your writing?
Because that's a huge deal.
SPEAKER_01 (23:46):
Yeah, it was a big deal.
I told my husband, I mean, justbeing a semifinalist was really
exciting.
But then to go to thatconference, there's hundreds of
other writers there.
And it's funny because um, I'mnot, I'm 30, so I'm not like
super young, but in the writingworld, that is kind of young.
I've realized most people tendto write their first books in
their 40s or their 50s just whenyou have a little more time and
(24:06):
space in your life.
Um, so to enter that room ofhundreds of writers, most of
them with way more experiencethan I was.
I was telling my head, I loveTaylor Swift, that it felt like
this, the Taylor Swift, You'reon your own kids song, where she
says something like, you know, Iget there just to find out my
dreams aren't rare.
I feel like it was thatexperience of you're the best
among your friends, or you'relike the only person with this
(24:28):
dream in your little crew.
And then to enter that world isscary.
And then to find out I didbelong there was just so
affirming and validating.
SPEAKER_00 (24:36):
Yeah, it's like a whole life-changing experience,
I feel like.
SPEAKER_01 (24:40):
It really was.
SPEAKER_00 (24:41):
Yeah, and it's such a payoff, too, to know that all
the time and the energy and themoney that you spent kind of
putting into this dream actuallypaid off.
SPEAKER_01 (24:49):
Yeah.
Huge.
Yeah, it was huge.
It was so exciting.
SPEAKER_00 (24:52):
Yeah, and it didn't stop there.
So then let's fast forward.
You have now landed who you sayis your dream agent.
How did we get from theconference to that?
SPEAKER_01 (25:02):
Yeah.
So at the conference, I had, asI said, four agents um request
my full draft, which was so fun.
And then so I went home and thendecided, well, I might as well
just start querying because I'mgonna have to query or at least
send my proposal and draft tothese agents.
So of the four I met, I thinkthat I sent it to two of them
(25:22):
because um two just kind of getthe vibes.
You're like, I'm not sure if wewould enjoy working together
based off of the ideas they hador um whatever it was.
So I sent it to two of those aswell as five others that I would
have been really excited to workwith, which I found these agents
just by looking up who some ofthe my favorite writers who are
(25:43):
doing what I want to be doing inthat space, who represents them.
So Christian fiction is its ownlittle niche, so there's pros
and cons to that because there'snot as many people writing in
that niche, of course, whichhelps with not having as much
competition.
But there's also not that manyagents who represent that niche.
So um pros and cons for sure.
But I queried seven and um threeI never heard back from, which I
(26:08):
think is normal.
One of them was someone I met atthe conference that invited me
to send it, but I never heardback from her.
And then of the other four, Igot an offer of representation
based off of just my proposal,which surprised me a lot.
So yeah, like we had a we had afun call.
And then I had an offer, justlike a straight offer based on
(26:29):
my full draft, which was soexciting.
And then, um, and that wasanother agent I met in person.
And then the agent I ended upsigning with, I had a revise and
resubmit request from her, whichshe basically said she loved my
story, she loved my writing, butshe wanted to see some
adjustment in how I hadpresented the faith elements,
which after rereading my draftand praying about it, I felt
(26:50):
really good about her direction.
So I went ahead and made thosechanges and submitted to her,
and then she offered, which wasso exciting.
And my fourth one came back withanother revise and resubmit, but
it was when I already had theother three offers.
So I um decided to move forwardwith one of the offers I already
had.
But so fun.
SPEAKER_00 (27:06):
And how did you decide?
Uh you have three offers, whichI'm sure people listening are
like, that is the dream.
SPEAKER_01 (27:11):
How did you then decide who to go with?
I got to have a call with eachof them, which was so fun.
And yeah, just asked a ton ofquestions about where they saw
my book fitting in the market,what edits they would want to
make, how they communicated withclients, where they would want
to submit it.
And um, just Jen, who is myagent, heard's lined up just
exactly with what I want for mycareer.
(27:32):
And she's with Books and SuchLarry Agency, which in the
Christian fiction world is oneof the top agencies.
So I was so honored.
I mean, I was honored by all ofthe agents who wanted to work
with me.
But yeah, it was reallyexciting.
SPEAKER_00 (27:44):
Yeah, that is so cool.
And I remember, I still rememberyour post in the Facebook group
and I saw your Instagram and Iwas like fangirling over here.
I was not surprised because Iknow I knew all your hard work
and I knew all the great resultsyou had, but it's such a great
feeling when you're like, I didit, I got the agent, and
everything you wanted happened.
SPEAKER_01 (28:01):
Yeah, I mean, I think it's still surprising
because so many people are sotalented and work really hard
and don't end up with thatresult.
So I was I was still surprised.
I was still so excited.
SPEAKER_00 (28:12):
Yeah, and I'm sure you still, some of it's like not
quite real yet.
SPEAKER_01 (28:16):
Yeah, I definitely, whenever I'm talking about Jen
or get an email or working onthe proposal, I definitely feel
like when you first get marriedand you're like my husband and
you feel like you're lying, I'mlike doing that with my agent.
I'm like, just have an emailfrom my agent.
No big deal.
SPEAKER_00 (28:29):
I love that so much.
Okay, well, we'll keep everyoneposted on like when Maddie's
book is gonna come out and allof that.
Um, but when you look back onkind of your whole journey from,
I think it was back in 2023 ofyou and your husband deciding,
okay, this is a serious dreamyou have, we're gonna take it
seriously.
You signed up to notes to novel,you um had your baby, you
finished your draft, you editedyour draft, you uh became a
(28:52):
semifinalist, then a finalist,and then you queried and got an
agent.
If you're talking to theaspiring authors who are
listening, what stands out toyou about your journey that you
want to impart on them?
SPEAKER_01 (29:03):
Oh my goodness.
It's a big question, I know.
Yes.
I think you said it in thebeginning, and some an author I
really respect said this to mewhen I was first getting started
as well.
But she basically said thedifference between aspiring
authors and successful authorsis just discipline and the
willingness to keep going andmake the time and do the thing.
And I feel like that probablysums up my entire journey with
(29:27):
trying to write this book andthen writing it and then
querying and then building um anewsletter and all the other
stuff that you have to dobecause it's so much work,
really, when you look at it thatit's so overwhelming.
But if you break it down, Idon't spend more than, I don't
know, four or five hours a weekon this particular dream.
And that's all the aspects thatincludes Bookstagram and
(29:49):
newsletter and all the stuffthat I'm doing now.
So it is a small chunk of yourlife, but it takes kind of the
intentionality and discipline tosegment that and when am I gonna
do it and make a plan and thenstick to that plan with like
tons of grace.
Obviously, I had a whole babyand yeah, stopped writing for a
ton of time, or I would start mywriting thing and then one of
them would wake up and whatever.
Like there was tons of grace forthe process, but then to not
(30:13):
just be like, oh, this week isshot, but to show up to my next
writing session and see whathappened.
SPEAKER_00 (30:18):
Yeah.
And I know that people listeningare gonna be like, Maddie, you
make it sound so easy becausewe're doing the highlight reel.
And I know, like you were justsaying, there's life stuff that
comes in the way.
But was there anything likesignificant as far as a
roadblock or a speed bump thatyou had to deal with?
SPEAKER_01 (30:33):
That's a good question.
Um, I mean, I feel like therewasn't like a huge other than
obviously I had a baby, butthat's like an exciting, an
exciting roadblock.
But everyday life.
Yeah.
But um, like I don't have healthissues, no, no tragedies
happened during those two years,thankfully.
But it was just like daily speedbumps.
I mean, I've got four littlekids.
(30:54):
So someone's always growing upor someone's didn't finish their
homework or whatever.
There's tons.
And we're we work full-time withthe ministry, which is so
involved.
There's always people over atour house, we're always like
meeting needs, which I lovedoing, but lots of daily speed
bumps and lots of writingsessions that I would really
intend to do a lot on and end upmostly on Instagram.
(31:15):
So it's like it was real lifetoo.
But I think that that's why it'sthe discipline that gets you
there and not the bursts ofenergy, because the discipline
had me, even if Tuesday'swriting session was nothing, it
just had me there again onThursday.
And eventually that all adds upto a taking it day by day,
session by session.
SPEAKER_00 (31:33):
And then, of course, like I think you're a great
example of making use of everysingle tool out there to help
you accomplish your dream andbeing open to doing new things,
like outlining as someone whothought you were a pancer.
SPEAKER_01 (31:44):
Yeah.
And I would say, did I think Iwas a pantser or did I just want
to be a pantser?
Because then I could just startwriting my book.
Probably that one.
But yeah, I mean, the wholething is learning new things
because once you have a book,you have to edit a book and then
you have to market a book, andquerying is terrifying.
And meeting with those agents, Idon't think my heart has ever
been pounding so hard.
(32:05):
It's just scary.
It's like offering somebody thisdream you've worked years on,
and then they can say whateverthey want in those 15 months.
So they can say a very quick andeasy no.
SPEAKER_00 (32:13):
That is scary.
SPEAKER_01 (32:15):
It's scary.
SPEAKER_00 (32:16):
Yeah, and I think also like you're willing to kind
of be uncomfortable with thelearning and the doing because
the dream means so much to you.
You know, if it didn't mean thatmuch, you would probably let
your writing times go a littlebit more and not show up to the
page every week and things likethat.
Totally.
SPEAKER_01 (32:32):
I feel like it just had to underscores I believe I'm
made to do this.
So if I believe that, then asmuch as I wish I could just
write a little book and send itout and it does amazing, there's
a million things I have to dothat I'm not necessarily made to
do.
Like marketing, who's I mean, Ijust don't, I think most writers
are introverts.
We don't want to do that, but itis part of it.
And so just accepting that to dothe thing I want to do, there
(32:54):
will be lots of things I have todo.
SPEAKER_00 (32:56):
Yeah.
And you'd rather face thediscomfort of doing those things
than the discomfort of notliving your purpose.
Exactly.
Yeah.
And so speaking of things thatwe don't love doing, let's talk
about marketing because I knowthat was a selling point almost
either way you look at it.
So if you were to self-publish,you would have had that built-in
platform, like you said.
I know it also came up withagents.
(33:17):
So do you want to talk, liketell everyone what your platform
is?
You said Bookstagram, but whatdo you do on there?
When did you start building it?
Just give us the, you know, theoverview of that.
SPEAKER_01 (33:26):
Yeah.
So I I have 17,000 onBookstagram, which isn't like a
huge platform in the Bookstagramspace, but in the Christian
niche, it is.
I started that based off of a umstory lab training that was
talking about marketing and wastalking about thinking, I think
whoever was on was talking aboutInstagram and they were talking
(33:47):
about newsletters.
And I just like my path of leastresistance at that time was
Instagram.
I'm like, that sounds easier.
At least I have a, you know,normal Instagram.
At least I understand thatplatform a little more.
Newsletters seem really scary atthe time.
So I started it because I thinkon that training, they talked
about starting whatever platformyou're gonna do way before you
need it so that there's notpressure.
(34:09):
So I finished my first draft.
And in the like two or three orfour-week break that you take
before reading it, I was like,I'll just start one.
And so I started a Bookstagramaccount and it's really bad.
If you scroll back to my firstpost, it's just I'm like, I
don't know, I'm just puttingsomething out there.
I was just trying differentthings.
But um it's ended up being oneof my favorite parts of the
(34:30):
whole process because I'veconnected with so many readers
who love to read the samethings.
It feels like having a ton oflike friends who love to read
now.
Didn't feel like that at first.
And sometimes it's still reallyhard or I didn't want to make
stuff or whatever.
But yeah, so I ended up, Ididn't know exactly what it was
gonna be when I started, butjust made a ton of videos and um
(34:51):
well, I think I started withstill posts because I didn't
want to talk in front of acamera at first.
But just got used to making aton of things and then I started
to figure out what people wereresponding to or what things I
enjoyed making.
And so now it's a Christianbookstogram, but I review um no
and low spice regular, likegeneral market, usually romance
or romantic, because that's whatI like to read, as well as um
(35:13):
specifically Christian fiction.
SPEAKER_00 (35:15):
Yeah, and I will link to that in the show notes.
You guys can go check outMaddie's Instagram, but it's
very interesting because I'msure people are wondering like,
do you talk about your writing?
Your book's not even out, how doyou deal with this?
And then and what's cool is youit's really about what you read
and your reviews, like you said,but you're also building an
audience who will be ready foryour book when it comes out,
(35:36):
even though you're not talkingabout it too much.
SPEAKER_01 (35:38):
Yeah, I would say like I post every day something,
and of those like say 14 postsin two weeks, maybe one will
touch on the fact that I'mwriting.
And rarely is it about my bookbecause now that I'm going the
traditional publishing route,we're probably a year and a half
away from ever having that tooffer.
So I can't for a year and a halfbe like, and it's still coming,
I promise.
So I talk a little bit aboutlike the writing process or
(36:00):
whatever, um, whenever I havesomething to say.
But because I'm recommending andreviewing books that I love, I
found other people who love toread what I'm reading.
And so I'm building, I've builtso much authority with that
group of people because theytrust what I recommend.
And so a lot of people arereally excited to read my book.
So hopefully, and you're justdoing what you love.
SPEAKER_00 (36:20):
So you're sharing what you love, which is makes it
so much easier.
SPEAKER_01 (36:23):
Yeah, and that helps because every time I buy a book,
I'm like, this is like basicallya write-off to my this is for
work.
SPEAKER_00 (36:30):
Yeah, but you're like, let's go back to the
bookstore.
SPEAKER_01 (36:33):
Yeah, we have to.
SPEAKER_00 (36:34):
I love that.
I love that.
Okay, so we'll link to that soyou guys can check out Maddie's
Instagram and follow her.
But let's like kind of zoom outand just say for the author who
wants to be where you are nextyear, what advice would you give
them?
SPEAKER_01 (36:48):
Yes, I feel like it's just make a plan and do the
plan.
Like that was my whole advicewas I knew where I wanted to
get.
And I didn't necessarily have atime frame.
I gave myself tons of grace, butI knew I want to have a finished
book and I want to publish it,whatever that ended up looking
like.
And so these are the steps thatI have to take to get there.
(37:09):
And then I just worked backwardsand put that in there.
And I think anyone, absolutelyanyone, can do that.
And I'm so excited with how myjourney has gone and I'm so
honored, but I'm not um, I'm notso much better.
I'm not like a specifically justreally gifted and talented
writer, and it's amazing.
I mean, I had never written abook before this.
So I think just to be encouragedthat this time last year I
(37:29):
didn't even have a finisheddraft yet.
And now I have an agent.
SPEAKER_00 (37:33):
My dream agent.
Your dream agent's so fun.
And people might think, well,you're a copywriter, so you're
good with words.
They're two totally differentskills, right?
Oh, they don't even overlap atall.
Yeah.
So when she says she is, and I II love and I hate using the word
average because I I love averagepeople and I am an average
person.
Yes.
Um, but I say average with love.
(37:54):
You are an average person withfour kids who has no prior
experience, and look what you'vedone in just a few short years.
So if Maddie can do it, you guyscan do it.
SPEAKER_01 (38:03):
And I think it's so fun because we're in a day and
age where there's so muchinformation that could be bad
too.
But yeah, you can learn how todo anything.
You don't, I mean, I actuallydid go to school with an English
degree, but I think in all thosefour years, I took one creative
writing class ever and it was onpoetry.
So it it didn't, that didn'thelp.
I I have I haven't learned howto write a book from my college
(38:24):
experience or anything likethat.
All of it has just been inself-directed, like online
opportunities.
Mostly at this point, I'm likepretty loyal to your way of
doing it.
Not even because, oh, it's thebest way.
I mean, it is for me, but Ithink once you find something
that works, you should probablystick to it.
But stick with it, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (38:40):
Yeah.
I agree.
So for anyone listening,whatever that method is for you,
it doesn't have to be mine, butany method that works for you,
stick with it.
Because that'll get you fartherthan researching until you're
blue in the face.
But Maddie, what is next foryou?
Are you working on book two now?
Yeah, so we are um making edits.
SPEAKER_01 (38:57):
It's really fun because my agent had so few
edits, which is so encouraging.
I was ready to dive in.
She's like, what if we changethis name?
I'm like, yeah, no problem.
Yeah.
So I'm finishing up edits.
I expect to be done with thosein a week or so.
We are working on my proposal,and then my book will likely go
on submission in January.
And then yeah, I'll start booktwo.
I have a few different ideas,but now um I have to run them by
(39:20):
my agent and get them greenlighted.
So I love that.
SPEAKER_00 (39:23):
Well, we'll have to do a follow-up with you so we
can see like you already wentreally fast through all this.
What will book two look like nowthat you've kind of finished
book one, made the mistakes,gone through the process, and
all that.
So we'll have to have you back.
But Maddie, thank you so muchfor sharing your story.
And we will link to all thethings Maddie mentioned today in
the show notes.
But thank you so much.
SPEAKER_01 (39:45):
Thank you so much for having me.
It was so much fun.
SPEAKER_00 (39:48):
All right, so that's it for this episode of the
Fiction Writing Made EasyPodcast.
Head over to savannagilbo.comforward slash podcast for the
complete show notes, includingthe resources I mentioned today,
as well as bonus materials tohelp you implement what you've
learned.
And if you're ready to get morepersonalized guidance for your
specific writing stage, whetheryou're just starting out, stuck
(40:09):
somewhere in the middle of adraft, drowning in revisions, or
getting ready to publish, takemy free 30-second quiz at
savannagilbo.com forward slashquiz.
You'll get a customized podcastplaylist that'll meet you right
where you're at and help you getto your next big milestone.
Last but not least, make sure tofollow this podcast in your
podcast player of choice becauseI'll be back next week with
(40:29):
another episode full ofactionable tips, tools, and
strategies to help you become abetter writer.
Until then, happy writing.
unknown (40:37):
Yeah.
I knew where I wanted to get and I didn't
necessarily have a time frame.
I gave myself tons of grace, butI knew I want to have a finished
book and I want to publish it,whatever that ended up looking
like.
And so these are the steps thatI have to take to get there.
And then I just worked backwardsand put that in there.
And I think absolutely anyonecan do that.
And I'm so excited with how myjourney has gone and I'm so
(00:58):
honored, but I'm not so muchbetter.
I'm not like a specifically justreally gifted and talented
writer, and it's amazing.
I mean, I had never written abook before this.
So I think just to be encouragedthat this time last year I
didn't even have a finisheddraft yet.
And now I have an agent, mydream agent.
SPEAKER_00 (01:17):
Welcome to the Fiction Writing Made Easy
podcast.
My name is Savannah Gilbo, andI'm here to help you write a
story that works.
I want to prove to you thatwriting a novel doesn't have to
be overwhelming.
So each week I'll bring you abrand new episode with simple,
actionable, and step-by-stepstrategies that you can
implement in your writing rightaway.
Whether you're brand new towriting or more of a seasoned
(01:38):
author looking to improve yourcraft, this podcast is for you.
So pick up a pen and let's getstarted.
In today's episode, we're goingbehind the scenes of One
Writer's Journey to hear how shewent from a 30,000-word draft
that didn't work to signing withher dream literary agent.
My guest name is Maddie Unruh,and she's a mama four, a
(01:59):
freelance copywriter, and afull-time volunteer at a local
youth ministry.
So to say Maddie is busy wouldbe a total understatement.
In this episode, she's going toshare what it was like to feel
completely overwhelmed by allthe writing advice out there.
She's going to share why herfirst attempt at drafting fell
apart, and what finally clickedthat helped her finish a
76,000-word draft in less thansix months, all while raising
(02:23):
four kids.
Maddie's also going to sharewhat it was like to pitch agents
at a writing conference, how itfelt when every single one of
them requested her fullmanuscript, and what happened
when she received three offersof representation.
So if you're a busy parent orsomeone who's tried to write a
novel before and it just didn'twork out, then this episode is
for you.
(02:43):
So without further ado, let'sdive right into my conversation
with Maddie Unru.
Hi, Maddie.
Welcome to the Fiction WritingMade Easy Podcast.
I'm so excited to have you heretoday.
Thank you so much.
I'm so honored and excited to beon.
Tell listeners a little bitabout who you are, what you do,
and things like that.
SPEAKER_01 (03:00):
Yeah, I'm Maddie.
I'm a contemporary romanceauthor, but I work full-time
with a youth-oriented ministryin Huntington Beach, which is so
much fun.
And then I am also a freelancecopywriter on the side.
And we have four kids.
Our oldest is seven.
We have twins who are five, andour youngest is two.
SPEAKER_00 (03:18):
And so you said you copyright.
What made you want to writefiction, or was this like a
lifelong thing for you?
SPEAKER_01 (03:23):
Yeah, writing fiction has always been a
lifelong dream for me for sure.
Um, I was really, I've alwaysloved to read, I think most of
us writers love to read, theHarry Potter series, Hunger
Games, a book called RedeemingLove.
Some books like that inspired mea lot, even in elementary school
and middle school.
I always knew I wanted to writefiction someday, but it always
(03:44):
felt like a someday kind ofdream.
And I always felt likeeventually I'll get around to
that.
So to actually be taking stepsin that direction is so
exciting.
SPEAKER_00 (03:51):
Yeah.
Talk to me about your firstcouple of times, like trying to
actually realize this dream.
Did you go out and research allthe things like most of us do?
Like, what did you do to makethis happen?
SPEAKER_01 (04:00):
No, I probably should have, but I just sat down
one day and was like, today'sthe day I write my book, um,
which was great.
But I wrote, I want to say like30,000 words, and then felt like
I don't know what's happening inthis story.
We're just kind of not reallydoing anything.
I have big long scenes of peoplejust sort of sitting and
thinking, and I think all thenormal things you do the first
(04:23):
time.
I thought I was gonna be apantser, probably just because
that sounded easier to me.
So I'm like, we'll just seewhere the story takes me.
But the story didn't take meanywhere.
And then somebody else hadrecommended that I dive into
podcasts and books and sort offigure that out.
So I paused my book for a while,found a few different podcasts,
found a few different um booksto read.
(04:43):
It's really overwhelming whenyou first start researching how
to write a book.
There was so much information.
But um, when I found yourpodcast, which I really just
came across at random, the waythat you were teaching was so
simple and clear.
And there was like clear stepsand expectations and frameworks,
but it wasn't super rigid.
(05:04):
And it just like made so muchsense to my brain.
So I paused my 30,000 draft ofnothing and binge listened to
literally all of your episodes.
It probably took a month to getthrough them all.
And then I started all the wayover and then started my whole
book over.
And it went a lot better thattime.
SPEAKER_00 (05:21):
That's so funny.
I love that.
And it's so funny you say about30,000 words because if we
listen to kind of all these paststudent spotlight episodes, it's
usually around 30,000, 35,000words that things start breaking
down.
SPEAKER_01 (05:32):
Yeah, I was like, because that got me through act
one where you have all the ideasand you're going, and then you
sort of, I mean, I didn't knowit was called act two, but
you're entering that, and I'mlike, um, I know what's gonna
happen at the climax.
SPEAKER_00 (05:43):
Yeah, you're like, but I don't know how to get
there.
So we'll see.
Yeah.
Um, okay, so that's awesome.
And then yeah, we met in I thinkJanuary of 2023 when you joined
Notes to Novel, and you're like,okay, I'm gonna take myself
seriously.
We had you on the podcast beforeyou submitted a little clip and
you were like, I decided to givemyself permission to take myself
seriously as a writer.
So talk about that a little bitbecause I know there are busy
(06:05):
moms and dads out there who werelike, should I spend the time?
Should I take time away from mykids?
Should I spend the money, right?
Should I invest in this?
How did you deal with that?
SPEAKER_01 (06:14):
Yeah, it was well, I mean, we have four little kids.
I think in January, right when Istarted Notes Novel, I found out
I was pregnant with my fourthbaby.
And so money's really tight.
It was a big undertaking to signup for that.
But I just had a goodconversation with my husband.
He's amazing, he's supersupportive.
And he's like, if this is whatGod's called you to do, if this
is what you were made for, ofcourse we're gonna figure that
(06:37):
out.
And so it just felt like thisshift from kind of a hobby of
like, I think I might write abook.
I think that would be somethingfun to do to for investing in
this financially, which was abig deal for us, as well as just
the time that it would take togo through the whole course.
And I already knew how long ithad taken me to write 30,000
words of nothing.
So to understand what I wasabout to sign up for when I'm
(06:59):
pregnant with our fourth baby,it felt like going ahead and
moving forward with that wasjust a big step in this is an
investment in something that Ibelieve I'm meant to do long
term.
And so it's worth investing in.
And if I'm going to invest init, I'm going to see it through.
SPEAKER_00 (07:14):
And I love that.
I think you have definitely havethat like tenacity that people
always ask me, like, whatseparates the writers who finish
from the ones that don't.
And I'm like, you just have tobe willing to make it work, no
matter the speed bumps.
And I'm sure there were speedbumps along the way.
One of them is ditching a30,000-word draft.
That was painful.
Yeah, it's always painful.
But I'm sure in hindsight,you're like, thank goodness I
(07:34):
did that because look at where Ilanded.
Um, which is spoiler alert,she's landed her dream agent.
We'll talk about that later.
Yes.
But what was it like goingthrough the course and talk
about like how did you managesetting aside time?
I'm sure it was great that yourfamily was very supportive.
But you know, did you have tolike block out time in your
calendar?
How'd you how'd you manage that?
SPEAKER_01 (07:55):
Yeah, my family is very supportive, but I was still
pregnant.
My twins were still two, and myoldest was still, gosh, he was
probably four.
So no one was even in schoolyet.
So as much as my husband's likeall in, I'm still home with the
kids uh 247, which is the best.
I love doing that, but itdoesn't super lend itself to
like quiet blocks of creativity.
(08:16):
Um I did most of the class onaudio form because um if you
sign up for the course, there isvideo and you can watch and go
along that way, but there's alsoum just like a podcast
basically.
So I would take all the kids tothe park and have my have one
AirPod in and be taking notes ona Word document on my phone.
So I listen to most of thecourse that way.
(08:37):
And then I also just get upearly.
That's how I've done all mywriting, and that's how I did
that course too.
So not every day, but at leastthree days a week, I would get
up at 4:30 or 5 a.m.
and just sit and do the stuffthat I had to be sitting to do.
And that worked really well forme.
I know some people are nightowls, and so it's better for
them if like after the kids arein bed to have that time.
(08:58):
But my brain is like uselessafter like 3 p.m.
every day.
So I found that just biting thebullet and getting up early
worked and um it was really fun.
I ended up really enjoying thosetimes.
It's quiet.
I'm like fresh and creative.
I would drink like three cups ofcoffee every morning, though.
By the time I'm done, I'm likegetting the kids up, my heart's
pounding.
I'm like, I'm afraid today, fullof anxiety.
(09:20):
But anyway, it was really fun.
SPEAKER_00 (09:22):
Oh no, yeah, anxiety is never good.
But I mean, look what came fromit, I guess.
Not that we're gonna recommendeveryone go drink three cups of
coffee.
Maybe chai tea.
Yeah, maybe chai tea or greentea or something.
But okay, so you set aside thetime, you made it work at the
park, you got up early, you didall the things.
When you were in the course, Iknow you kind of came at this as
I think I'm a pantser.
That sounds more comfortable forme.
(09:43):
And then I know that you kind ofdid a hard pivot and you started
loving outlining.
So talk about that or any otheraha moments that really like
helped you get to the end ofthat draft.
SPEAKER_01 (09:53):
Yeah, it's really your process just was so right
for my personality and my brain.
And so it felt like a clearroadmap without ever feeling
super rigid because I amdefinitely a rule follower.
So if someone had given me youneed to do all these things, I
would do them, but I feel likepanicked by them sometimes.
And so you're so great atreminding, you know, this
(10:15):
basically I would tell myself alot, this outline serves me.
I don't serve the outline.
So I change it at any time.
I'm not like a slave to thisthing, it's just part of the
process.
And I found it really fun to becreative on the outline and to
test drive different ideaswithout the pressure of, I mean,
because I had already written30,000 words.
(10:35):
So I know it happens, or Ialready knew it happened if I
just followed an idea whereverit led and then it didn't work.
So doing that on the outlinestarted to feel a lot safer.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (10:45):
Cause you're dealing with less words and pages and
all that.
SPEAKER_01 (10:49):
Yeah.
And then because my writingsessions were short and I had to
do them at the specific times,it I just didn't have the time
and space to sit there and tryto think up, what should I write
today?
Like it just needed to be, thisis the next scene.
I'm going to write it.
Um, yeah, which was great.
SPEAKER_00 (11:05):
Yeah.
And so what Maddie's talkingabout that we do in the course
is we we map out the outline andthen it changes how you show up
to your desk because instead ofsaying, well, I just wrote scene
seven and now I have to figureout for 30 minutes what happens
in scene eight, you already knowbecause of your outline.
So talk about like what was yourtimeline like because your baby
showed up somewhere in themiddle of your first draft.
SPEAKER_01 (11:27):
Yes, my baby showed up.
So I think that I was trying tolook over before we recorded
this so I'd have accuratenumbers.
I wrote act one, probably inlike February of that year.
And the act one was a lot thesame as I had done for the
original draft, but I had somenew subplots and things to weave
through.
So I wrote act one in a fewweeks and then just morning
sickness and you know, wasreally tired at the end of that
(11:50):
pregnancy.
So wasn't able to get up for mywork sessions, and then I had a
newborn.
I took like a year and a halfbreak away from my book.
But what was so helpful is Inever one time felt like I
didn't finish that or like I'veabandoned it.
I always knew it's there, it'swaiting for me.
I have the whole book plannedout.
I know how to make thatprogress.
I'm just gonna pop back in um assoon as he's sleeping through
(12:12):
the night.
And I did, and it was totallyfine.
It was funny because one day Ijust realized, hey, he's
sleeping 12 hours, I'm back.
And so I just opened my computerand started again.
And then I had finished my bookby um December.
SPEAKER_00 (12:25):
Yeah.
So I think you said it was likesix months of total writing
time, which is crazy.
SPEAKER_01 (12:29):
I think it was less when I went back and watched it.
SPEAKER_00 (12:31):
I think it was a little less of actual like days
that I sat at my computer.
That's amazing.
And I love, like, I'm sure thereare moms and dads out there that
are just listening to you,going, wow, the the idea that
you could have this outline thatyou still loved when you sat
back down, even though you mighthave had new ideas and things
like that, but your story didn'treally change in a fundamental
way.
And it was there waiting foryou.
(12:52):
And you picked up and you had abunch of steam, and then you
finished and you ended up withwhat was it like a 76,000-word,
pretty well fleshed out draft?
SPEAKER_01 (13:00):
Yeah, I think my first draft was 76,000.
SPEAKER_00 (13:03):
Yeah.
And so when I know you said whenyou dipped back in after your
baby came and you took that yearand a half off, I think you said
you re-listened to the course.
So pretty much the same way youlistened to it the first time.
Yeah.
And then you just kind ofrefamiliarized yourself and dug
back into the outline.
SPEAKER_01 (13:18):
Yeah.
And I think it also helped thatthroughout that break I took,
um, I continued listening toyour podcast episodes as they
came out.
And I can't remember, I think Ijoined the story lab once I got
back to my computer.
It was just kind of a fresh waveof telling myself I'm doing this
again, um, which really helped.
But continuing to listen helpedme feel like I hadn't ever
(13:39):
abandoned it.
I was like marinating on newideas and biting my time.
And I was listening to lots ofbooks in my genre during that
break.
So that helped a lot.
But yeah, then when I was ready,I re-listened to the course the
same way I had the first time.
And then I just started againand finished.
SPEAKER_00 (13:55):
And that's amazing.
And one thing, because you youmentioned genre.
Um, and I know you write closeddoor sweet romance with a
Christian angle to it.
Was there any challenge likeadapting the genre cheat sheets
and the guidance in the courseto your specific genre?
SPEAKER_01 (14:09):
Oh, no, not at all.
I feel like that's what I loveabout the way that you describe
genre is you you have yourromance genre outline, but that
could literally work for aChristian fiction romance, which
is what I wrote, or a romanticyor a spicy romance, or a
romantic sci-fi.
Like it's just so broad.
And you're good at usingdifferent examples, which really
(14:31):
helped because it's like I thinkyou had Twilight on there and
Pride and Prejudice, and thosecouldn't be any more different
books.
So it just helped to be likewhat's necessary in a romance
genre is gonna be necessary inany romance.
And then I get to add the faithelements because that's my
niche.
SPEAKER_00 (14:46):
Yeah, which is so cool.
And we'll talk about that alittle bit more in a second.
But let's go back to you had thefinished draft, and then you
were like, all right, now I needto edit this thing because I
know I want to pursuetraditional publishing, right?
That was your goal from day one.
SPEAKER_01 (15:00):
Yeah, I was really open to indie publishing.
I think because I had built apretty good following on
Bookstagram, I was like, hey,indie publishing could be, I
mean, any publishing can be avalid option for anyone, but um,
marketing didn't seem as scarybecause I had a an in with my
audience.
So I was very like, I wanted tobe prepared for traditional
(15:20):
publishing and I'm gonna queryagents I would be really excited
to work with.
And if something works out withthem, then that's amazing.
And if not, I can move forwardon my own, was kind of how I
felt.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (15:30):
Okay, so tell me what editing was like with that
in mind.
SPEAKER_01 (15:33):
Yes, I mean, I just followed, like I said, I love, I
love a rule to follow, I love abox to put myself in.
So I followed the exactframework.
I took my break, I reread mydraft, and that was like a
hilarious up and downexperience.
So I'd be sitting there like,this is just amazing.
I can't believe I wrote this inthe very next scene.
You're like, well, it's been funto pretend I was gonna be a
(15:56):
writer, and that's all.
Um, but I reread the wholething.
I kept, I printed it out, whichwas really fun.
That just made it feel real tohold all these pages I'd
written.
And I kept a document open andwrote down all my ideas and all
my thoughts because of theoutline um that I had pressure
tested pretty well, and becauseof all the work we had done in
(16:19):
your course on learning how towrite a scene.
The first draft was in prettygood shape.
So that was really fun.
The story level edit, which Idid first, uh, really only took
like maybe a month because thestory had worked pretty well.
There was a couple things thatas I reread it, was like, that's
kind of weak.
And can I think of a better wayto do that?
(16:40):
But it wasn't like a convolutedmess.
I it had followed a story arcalready.
That was really helpful.
So the story level edit wasn'ttoo bad.
And then I did a scene leveledit, which was more fun for me.
And then I got beta readers,which was um so helpful.
And the beta readers helped medo another story level edit
(17:01):
based off of their feedback,which I think made the draft
like a thousand times stronger.
And then I did a line leveledit, which is my favorite.
SPEAKER_00 (17:08):
Oh, interesting.
I wouldn't have guessed thatfrom you, but that's funny.
Okay, so you said, because Ithink there are people with that
their bells are probably goingoff right now listening to you
talk about this.
You said you wrote this draft inless than six months.
And it was actually like, yeah,there were parts where you're
like, oh my God, I can't believeI wrote this.
This is crazy.
But overall it worked.
And I think there's this mythout there that the faster you
(17:30):
go, the worse your draft isgoing to be.
But you're literally proof thatthat's not true.
So can you just talk about thata little bit?
SPEAKER_01 (17:37):
Yeah, totally.
Um yeah, I think that the fasterI went, the lower quality the
writing was.
And I had to be okay with that.
Is these aren't prettysentences.
I'm not like doing my bestmetaphors, which is probably why
I liked the line editing, isbecause then I got to be like, I
know the story is good, so Iknow I'm not wasting time making
this sense pretty.
Um, so I enjoyed that.
(17:57):
But the faster I went, the worsemaybe my writing quality was.
But the story, because I learnedso much about seeing the story
itself was solid.
So I knew um, because of theromance genre conventions and
all those things, what needed tohappen at certain points of the
story.
And so even if I decided lateron a different way to accomplish
(18:18):
that moment, it didn't changethe story arc because we still
had to have our all is lost.
So even if later, and I didlater I decided on a slightly
different all is lost, but thenI didn't have to go back and
change the rest of the book.
I just changed that scene andmaybe one or two around it kind
of thing.
SPEAKER_00 (18:34):
Yeah, which is I love hearing you talk about this
because I do think there's a wayto have this result for
everybody, right?
It's like it just because peoplesay write fast, do a fast draft,
it does not need to be a poorquality draft.
Like Maddie said, the sentencesmight need a little love, but
the story can actually work andread more like a third or fourth
draft in terms of the story.
(18:55):
And then, like you said, you cutdown on your editing time quite
a bit.
And was there anything that kindof stood out for the from the
beta reader feedback that's justworth mentioning?
SPEAKER_01 (19:04):
Yeah, my beta reader feedback was really fun.
So um they they really liked it.
And they weren't, because thesearen't writers, they weren't
necessarily saying, Oh, what agood understanding of scene that
you have, but they they wouldcomment on the pacing feeling
really good and um one thingleading to another.
And it always felt like they'rethey're commenting on narrative
(19:25):
drive, but they didn't have thatterminology.
But they felt like they couldn'tput it down and everything made
sense.
There wasn't random scenes, soit was super encouraging.
SPEAKER_00 (19:34):
That's so fun.
I love that.
And were your beta readerspeople you had met online or who
were they?
SPEAKER_01 (19:40):
Yeah, I found beta readers.
So I run like through myBookstarram a book club, and you
can tell at a book club who hasa really good understanding of
story because they always havegood ideas on like, or they're
pointing out the flaws and theholes in books, and they just
have a good.
So I asked like five or six ofthem if they would be willing to
um read mine.
So a couple were people that Iknew in person, but um, some
(20:01):
were not as well.
SPEAKER_00 (20:02):
That's so fun.
I love that.
Okay, so then let's fastforward.
You edited again um and yousharpened up that story level
edit again, and you went throughthe process.
And then at some point, youdecided to go to a conference
and you had won a contest inhere somewhere.
You also pitched agents.
Talk about this phase, kind ofpre getting the agent you're
with now.
SPEAKER_01 (20:22):
Yeah, so I finished my first draft, like I said, in
December.
And I got an email from like awriter's association that I'm in
about a Genesis contest, whichis for unpublished writers only.
And your book has to be written,but you only submit the first
15.
Pages.
So I'm like, I think I could dothat.
You know, like the book doesn'thave to be perfect.
The book just has to exist.
(20:43):
And the first 15 pages have tobe as perfect as I can make
them.
So I decided to enter thatmostly because you got agent and
publishing house feedback onyour first 15 pages.
So I'm like, that's just like ano later.
Yeah, no loose situation.
So I decided to enter that.
So I my first draft existed, andI took the first 15 pages
(21:05):
through the scene and line leveledit, but ignored the rest of my
book for then.
SPEAKER_00 (21:09):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (21:09):
Submitted to that contest and then just went back
to editing as normal.
And I found out in uh May, Ithink, that I was a
semifinalist, which was the topseven, which was super exciting.
Um, because there's hundreds ofpeople who enter that contest.
And so my genre was contemporaryromance, which is also a very
big genre.
So I was super honored andexcited about that.
(21:31):
And because I was asemifinalist, I got to go to the
conference where they wouldannounce the finalists and
winners.
And at the conference, you canpitch agents in person.
And so that was exciting andalso scary because I felt like I
really needed to finish my draftreally fast.
And I it pushed definitelypushed up the timeline I
probably would have given myselfto edit my book and be ready for
(21:52):
querying and all that.
But I'm glad it did.
So I went to that conference inSeptember and I ended up filing.
So I did it when, but I ended uptop three, which was exciting.
So cool.
And I pitched to four agents andone publishing house directly.
And they all asked for my fullmanuscript, which was so
affirming and so exciting.
SPEAKER_00 (22:12):
Yeah, that's so cool.
And it's I remember kind ofbecause you're in the story lab,
which for anyone who who'slistening who doesn't know what
that is, that is my membershipwhere notes to novel graduates
go once they're done with thecourse.
And I remember like Maddie wasupdating us in real time, like,
I think I'm gonna submit.
And then it was like, holy cow,I'm a semifinalist.
And then it was, I'm a finalistin real time.
So that was really exciting.
(22:33):
I'm sure people listening arewondering, like, what do you
think it was about your pagesthat made the biggest
difference?
Was it the scene writing?
Was it starting at the rightplace?
Is there what do you think likestood out the most?
SPEAKER_01 (22:44):
Yeah, it's so fun.
I got the feedback from thefirst round and then a second
round because I was a finalist.
And it seems like it was theunderstanding of scene which got
me the most uh kind of ahead ofother applicants.
Because there's so many good andbeautiful writers and there's so
many amazing story ideas outthere.
But learning how to write ascene is really like the
(23:06):
skeleton of your whole book,like you talk about all the
time, and it's that pacing andthat forward momentum and all of
that.
So I think that based off oftheir feedback, that is probably
what did the best.
I don't know exactly becauseit's so subjective.
I'm sure a lot of those bookswere beautiful and wonderfully
written.
SPEAKER_00 (23:22):
But um Yeah, but I'll validate you a little on
that because I also see a lot ofopenings and it's usually, you
know, a lot of info dumping, alot of the common mistakes that
people will make.
And it's like it takes a whileif to get to a scene, if there
even is a scene.
So I definitely would agree.
If if you asked me point blank,I would have said scenes as
well.
But what did it feel like tokind of get that validation on
(23:43):
your idea and your writing?
Because that's a huge deal.
SPEAKER_01 (23:46):
Yeah, it was a big deal.
I told my husband, I mean, justbeing a semifinalist was really
exciting.
But then to go to thatconference, there's hundreds of
other writers there.
And it's funny because um, I'mnot, I'm 30, so I'm not like
super young, but in the writingworld, that is kind of young.
I've realized most people tendto write their first books in
their 40s or their 50s just whenyou have a little more time and
(24:06):
space in your life.
Um, so to enter that room ofhundreds of writers, most of
them with way more experiencethan I was.
I was telling my head, I loveTaylor Swift, that it felt like
this, the Taylor Swift, You'reon your own kids song, where she
says something like, you know, Iget there just to find out my
dreams aren't rare.
I feel like it was thatexperience of you're the best
among your friends, or you'relike the only person with this
(24:28):
dream in your little crew.
And then to enter that world isscary.
And then to find out I didbelong there was just so
affirming and validating.
SPEAKER_00 (24:36):
Yeah, it's like a whole life-changing experience,
I feel like.
SPEAKER_01 (24:40):
It really was.
SPEAKER_00 (24:41):
Yeah, and it's such a payoff, too, to know that all
the time and the energy and themoney that you spent kind of
putting into this dream actuallypaid off.
SPEAKER_01 (24:49):
Yeah.
Huge.
Yeah, it was huge.
It was so exciting.
SPEAKER_00 (24:52):
Yeah, and it didn't stop there.
So then let's fast forward.
You have now landed who you sayis your dream agent.
How did we get from theconference to that?
SPEAKER_01 (25:02):
Yeah.
So at the conference, I had, asI said, four agents um request
my full draft, which was so fun.
And then so I went home and thendecided, well, I might as well
just start querying because I'mgonna have to query or at least
send my proposal and draft tothese agents.
So of the four I met, I thinkthat I sent it to two of them
(25:22):
because um two just kind of getthe vibes.
You're like, I'm not sure if wewould enjoy working together
based off of the ideas they hador um whatever it was.
So I sent it to two of those aswell as five others that I would
have been really excited to workwith, which I found these agents
just by looking up who some ofthe my favorite writers who are
(25:43):
doing what I want to be doing inthat space, who represents them.
So Christian fiction is its ownlittle niche, so there's pros
and cons to that because there'snot as many people writing in
that niche, of course, whichhelps with not having as much
competition.
But there's also not that manyagents who represent that niche.
So um pros and cons for sure.
But I queried seven and um threeI never heard back from, which I
(26:08):
think is normal.
One of them was someone I met atthe conference that invited me
to send it, but I never heardback from her.
And then of the other four, Igot an offer of representation
based off of just my proposal,which surprised me a lot.
So yeah, like we had a we had afun call.
And then I had an offer, justlike a straight offer based on
(26:29):
my full draft, which was soexciting.
And then, um, and that wasanother agent I met in person.
And then the agent I ended upsigning with, I had a revise and
resubmit request from her, whichshe basically said she loved my
story, she loved my writing, butshe wanted to see some
adjustment in how I hadpresented the faith elements,
which after rereading my draftand praying about it, I felt
(26:50):
really good about her direction.
So I went ahead and made thosechanges and submitted to her,
and then she offered, which wasso exciting.
And my fourth one came back withanother revise and resubmit, but
it was when I already had theother three offers.
So I um decided to move forwardwith one of the offers I already
had.
But so fun.
SPEAKER_00 (27:06):
And how did you decide?
Uh you have three offers, whichI'm sure people listening are
like, that is the dream.
SPEAKER_01 (27:11):
How did you then decide who to go with?
I got to have a call with eachof them, which was so fun.
And yeah, just asked a ton ofquestions about where they saw
my book fitting in the market,what edits they would want to
make, how they communicated withclients, where they would want
to submit it.
And um, just Jen, who is myagent, heard's lined up just
exactly with what I want for mycareer.
(27:32):
And she's with Books and SuchLarry Agency, which in the
Christian fiction world is oneof the top agencies.
So I was so honored.
I mean, I was honored by all ofthe agents who wanted to work
with me.
But yeah, it was reallyexciting.
SPEAKER_00 (27:44):
Yeah, that is so cool.
And I remember, I still rememberyour post in the Facebook group
and I saw your Instagram and Iwas like fangirling over here.
I was not surprised because Iknow I knew all your hard work
and I knew all the great resultsyou had, but it's such a great
feeling when you're like, I didit, I got the agent, and
everything you wanted happened.
SPEAKER_01 (28:01):
Yeah, I mean, I think it's still surprising
because so many people are sotalented and work really hard
and don't end up with thatresult.
So I was I was still surprised.
I was still so excited.
SPEAKER_00 (28:12):
Yeah, and I'm sure you still, some of it's like not
quite real yet.
SPEAKER_01 (28:16):
Yeah, I definitely, whenever I'm talking about Jen
or get an email or working onthe proposal, I definitely feel
like when you first get marriedand you're like my husband and
you feel like you're lying, I'mlike doing that with my agent.
I'm like, just have an emailfrom my agent.
No big deal.
SPEAKER_00 (28:29):
I love that so much.
Okay, well, we'll keep everyoneposted on like when Maddie's
book is gonna come out and allof that.
Um, but when you look back onkind of your whole journey from,
I think it was back in 2023 ofyou and your husband deciding,
okay, this is a serious dreamyou have, we're gonna take it
seriously.
You signed up to notes to novel,you um had your baby, you
finished your draft, you editedyour draft, you uh became a
(28:52):
semifinalist, then a finalist,and then you queried and got an
agent.
If you're talking to theaspiring authors who are
listening, what stands out toyou about your journey that you
want to impart on them?
SPEAKER_01 (29:03):
Oh my goodness.
It's a big question, I know.
Yes.
I think you said it in thebeginning, and some an author I
really respect said this to mewhen I was first getting started
as well.
But she basically said thedifference between aspiring
authors and successful authorsis just discipline and the
willingness to keep going andmake the time and do the thing.
And I feel like that probablysums up my entire journey with
(29:27):
trying to write this book andthen writing it and then
querying and then building um anewsletter and all the other
stuff that you have to dobecause it's so much work,
really, when you look at it thatit's so overwhelming.
But if you break it down, Idon't spend more than, I don't
know, four or five hours a weekon this particular dream.
And that's all the aspects thatincludes Bookstagram and
(29:49):
newsletter and all the stuffthat I'm doing now.
So it is a small chunk of yourlife, but it takes kind of the
intentionality and discipline tosegment that and when am I gonna
do it and make a plan and thenstick to that plan with like
tons of grace.
Obviously, I had a whole babyand yeah, stopped writing for a
ton of time, or I would start mywriting thing and then one of
them would wake up and whatever.
Like there was tons of grace forthe process, but then to not
(30:13):
just be like, oh, this week isshot, but to show up to my next
writing session and see whathappened.
SPEAKER_00 (30:18):
Yeah.
And I know that people listeningare gonna be like, Maddie, you
make it sound so easy becausewe're doing the highlight reel.
And I know, like you were justsaying, there's life stuff that
comes in the way.
But was there anything likesignificant as far as a
roadblock or a speed bump thatyou had to deal with?
SPEAKER_01 (30:33):
That's a good question.
Um, I mean, I feel like therewasn't like a huge other than
obviously I had a baby, butthat's like an exciting, an
exciting roadblock.
But everyday life.
Yeah.
But um, like I don't have healthissues, no, no tragedies
happened during those two years,thankfully.
But it was just like daily speedbumps.
I mean, I've got four littlekids.
(30:54):
So someone's always growing upor someone's didn't finish their
homework or whatever.
There's tons.
And we're we work full-time withthe ministry, which is so
involved.
There's always people over atour house, we're always like
meeting needs, which I lovedoing, but lots of daily speed
bumps and lots of writingsessions that I would really
intend to do a lot on and end upmostly on Instagram.
(31:15):
So it's like it was real lifetoo.
But I think that that's why it'sthe discipline that gets you
there and not the bursts ofenergy, because the discipline
had me, even if Tuesday'swriting session was nothing, it
just had me there again onThursday.
And eventually that all adds upto a taking it day by day,
session by session.
SPEAKER_00 (31:33):
And then, of course, like I think you're a great
example of making use of everysingle tool out there to help
you accomplish your dream andbeing open to doing new things,
like outlining as someone whothought you were a pancer.
SPEAKER_01 (31:44):
Yeah.
And I would say, did I think Iwas a pantser or did I just want
to be a pantser?
Because then I could just startwriting my book.
Probably that one.
But yeah, I mean, the wholething is learning new things
because once you have a book,you have to edit a book and then
you have to market a book, andquerying is terrifying.
And meeting with those agents, Idon't think my heart has ever
been pounding so hard.
(32:05):
It's just scary.
It's like offering somebody thisdream you've worked years on,
and then they can say whateverthey want in those 15 months.
So they can say a very quick andeasy no.
SPEAKER_00 (32:13):
That is scary.
SPEAKER_01 (32:15):
It's scary.
SPEAKER_00 (32:16):
Yeah, and I think also like you're willing to kind
of be uncomfortable with thelearning and the doing because
the dream means so much to you.
You know, if it didn't mean thatmuch, you would probably let
your writing times go a littlebit more and not show up to the
page every week and things likethat.
Totally.
SPEAKER_01 (32:32):
I feel like it just had to underscores I believe I'm
made to do this.
So if I believe that, then asmuch as I wish I could just
write a little book and send itout and it does amazing, there's
a million things I have to dothat I'm not necessarily made to
do.
Like marketing, who's I mean, Ijust don't, I think most writers
are introverts.
We don't want to do that, but itis part of it.
And so just accepting that to dothe thing I want to do, there
(32:54):
will be lots of things I have todo.
SPEAKER_00 (32:56):
Yeah.
And you'd rather face thediscomfort of doing those things
than the discomfort of notliving your purpose.
Exactly.
Yeah.
And so speaking of things thatwe don't love doing, let's talk
about marketing because I knowthat was a selling point almost
either way you look at it.
So if you were to self-publish,you would have had that built-in
platform, like you said.
I know it also came up withagents.
(33:17):
So do you want to talk, liketell everyone what your platform
is?
You said Bookstagram, but whatdo you do on there?
When did you start building it?
Just give us the, you know, theoverview of that.
SPEAKER_01 (33:26):
Yeah.
So I I have 17,000 onBookstagram, which isn't like a
huge platform in the Bookstagramspace, but in the Christian
niche, it is.
I started that based off of a umstory lab training that was
talking about marketing and wastalking about thinking, I think
whoever was on was talking aboutInstagram and they were talking
(33:47):
about newsletters.
And I just like my path of leastresistance at that time was
Instagram.
I'm like, that sounds easier.
At least I have a, you know,normal Instagram.
At least I understand thatplatform a little more.
Newsletters seem really scary atthe time.
So I started it because I thinkon that training, they talked
about starting whatever platformyou're gonna do way before you
need it so that there's notpressure.
(34:09):
So I finished my first draft.
And in the like two or three orfour-week break that you take
before reading it, I was like,I'll just start one.
And so I started a Bookstagramaccount and it's really bad.
If you scroll back to my firstpost, it's just I'm like, I
don't know, I'm just puttingsomething out there.
I was just trying differentthings.
But um it's ended up being oneof my favorite parts of the
(34:30):
whole process because I'veconnected with so many readers
who love to read the samethings.
It feels like having a ton oflike friends who love to read
now.
Didn't feel like that at first.
And sometimes it's still reallyhard or I didn't want to make
stuff or whatever.
But yeah, so I ended up, Ididn't know exactly what it was
gonna be when I started, butjust made a ton of videos and um
(34:51):
well, I think I started withstill posts because I didn't
want to talk in front of acamera at first.
But just got used to making aton of things and then I started
to figure out what people wereresponding to or what things I
enjoyed making.
And so now it's a Christianbookstogram, but I review um no
and low spice regular, likegeneral market, usually romance
or romantic, because that's whatI like to read, as well as um
(35:13):
specifically Christian fiction.
SPEAKER_00 (35:15):
Yeah, and I will link to that in the show notes.
You guys can go check outMaddie's Instagram, but it's
very interesting because I'msure people are wondering like,
do you talk about your writing?
Your book's not even out, how doyou deal with this?
And then and what's cool is youit's really about what you read
and your reviews, like you said,but you're also building an
audience who will be ready foryour book when it comes out,
(35:36):
even though you're not talkingabout it too much.
SPEAKER_01 (35:38):
Yeah, I would say like I post every day something,
and of those like say 14 postsin two weeks, maybe one will
touch on the fact that I'mwriting.
And rarely is it about my bookbecause now that I'm going the
traditional publishing route,we're probably a year and a half
away from ever having that tooffer.
So I can't for a year and a halfbe like, and it's still coming,
I promise.
So I talk a little bit aboutlike the writing process or
(36:00):
whatever, um, whenever I havesomething to say.
But because I'm recommending andreviewing books that I love, I
found other people who love toread what I'm reading.
And so I'm building, I've builtso much authority with that
group of people because theytrust what I recommend.
And so a lot of people arereally excited to read my book.
So hopefully, and you're justdoing what you love.
SPEAKER_00 (36:20):
So you're sharing what you love, which is makes it
so much easier.
SPEAKER_01 (36:23):
Yeah, and that helps because every time I buy a book,
I'm like, this is like basicallya write-off to my this is for
work.
SPEAKER_00 (36:30):
Yeah, but you're like, let's go back to the
bookstore.
SPEAKER_01 (36:33):
Yeah, we have to.
SPEAKER_00 (36:34):
I love that.
I love that.
Okay, so we'll link to that soyou guys can check out Maddie's
Instagram and follow her.
But let's like kind of zoom outand just say for the author who
wants to be where you are nextyear, what advice would you give
them?
SPEAKER_01 (36:48):
Yes, I feel like it's just make a plan and do the
plan.
Like that was my whole advicewas I knew where I wanted to
get.
And I didn't necessarily have atime frame.
I gave myself tons of grace, butI knew I want to have a finished
book and I want to publish it,whatever that ended up looking
like.
And so these are the steps thatI have to take to get there.
(37:09):
And then I just worked backwardsand put that in there.
And I think anyone, absolutelyanyone, can do that.
And I'm so excited with how myjourney has gone and I'm so
honored, but I'm not um, I'm notso much better.
I'm not like a specifically justreally gifted and talented
writer, and it's amazing.
I mean, I had never written abook before this.
So I think just to be encouragedthat this time last year I
(37:29):
didn't even have a finisheddraft yet.
And now I have an agent.
SPEAKER_00 (37:33):
My dream agent.
Your dream agent's so fun.
And people might think, well,you're a copywriter, so you're
good with words.
They're two totally differentskills, right?
Oh, they don't even overlap atall.
Yeah.
So when she says she is, and I II love and I hate using the word
average because I I love averagepeople and I am an average
person.
Yes.
Um, but I say average with love.
(37:54):
You are an average person withfour kids who has no prior
experience, and look what you'vedone in just a few short years.
So if Maddie can do it, you guyscan do it.
SPEAKER_01 (38:03):
And I think it's so fun because we're in a day and
age where there's so muchinformation that could be bad
too.
But yeah, you can learn how todo anything.
You don't, I mean, I actuallydid go to school with an English
degree, but I think in all thosefour years, I took one creative
writing class ever and it was onpoetry.
So it it didn't, that didn'thelp.
I I have I haven't learned howto write a book from my college
(38:24):
experience or anything likethat.
All of it has just been inself-directed, like online
opportunities.
Mostly at this point, I'm likepretty loyal to your way of
doing it.
Not even because, oh, it's thebest way.
I mean, it is for me, but Ithink once you find something
that works, you should probablystick to it.
But stick with it, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (38:40):
Yeah.
I agree.
So for anyone listening,whatever that method is for you,
it doesn't have to be mine, butany method that works for you,
stick with it.
Because that'll get you fartherthan researching until you're
blue in the face.
But Maddie, what is next foryou?
Are you working on book two now?
Yeah, so we are um making edits.
SPEAKER_01 (38:57):
It's really fun because my agent had so few
edits, which is so encouraging.
I was ready to dive in.
She's like, what if we changethis name?
I'm like, yeah, no problem.
Yeah.
So I'm finishing up edits.
I expect to be done with thosein a week or so.
We are working on my proposal,and then my book will likely go
on submission in January.
And then yeah, I'll start booktwo.
I have a few different ideas,but now um I have to run them by
(39:20):
my agent and get them greenlighted.
So I love that.
SPEAKER_00 (39:23):
Well, we'll have to do a follow-up with you so we
can see like you already wentreally fast through all this.
What will book two look like nowthat you've kind of finished
book one, made the mistakes,gone through the process, and
all that.
So we'll have to have you back.
But Maddie, thank you so muchfor sharing your story.
And we will link to all thethings Maddie mentioned today in
the show notes.
But thank you so much.
SPEAKER_01 (39:45):
Thank you so much for having me.
It was so much fun.
SPEAKER_00 (39:48):
All right, so that's it for this episode of the
Fiction Writing Made EasyPodcast.
Head over to savannagilbo.comforward slash podcast for the
complete show notes, includingthe resources I mentioned today,
as well as bonus materials tohelp you implement what you've
learned.
And if you're ready to get morepersonalized guidance for your
specific writing stage, whetheryou're just starting out, stuck
(40:09):
somewhere in the middle of adraft, drowning in revisions, or
getting ready to publish, takemy free 30-second quiz at
savannagilbo.com forward slashquiz.
You'll get a customized podcastplaylist that'll meet you right
where you're at and help you getto your next big milestone.
Last but not least, make sure tofollow this podcast in your
podcast player of choice becauseI'll be back next week with
(40:29):
another episode full ofactionable tips, tools, and
strategies to help you become abetter writer.
Until then, happy writing.
unknown (40:37):
Yeah.
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