Ep. 101 - When Faith Meets Film with Nathan and Meghan Leon

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Nathan and Meghan Leon share their journey as Christian filmmakers who have found creative ways to balance their family life with independent film production while maintaining creative control and authenticity in their storytelling.

• Started from creative backgrounds with Nathan in an Act One mentorship program and Meghan with a master's in creative writing
• Prioritize family by including their children on set and creating a familial environment for cast and crew
• Believe God blesses work when family comes first, even if it means fewer working hours
• Focus on creating authentic Christian stories that address real-life struggles rather than sanitized versions of faith
• Made "Grace by Night" for under $500,000 while competing with $5-10 million productions at festivals
• Hire small groups of talented people rather than overstaffing to maximize budget efficiency
• Find creative solutions for expensive-looking shots without breaking the bank
• Build relationships with potential investors through smaller projects and networking
• Remain independent to maintain creative control over their storytelling
• Create positive set environments where cast and crew feel respected and valued

Visionary Film Productions can be found at visionary-filmproductions.com 

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to the show Nathan and Megan Leon.

Speaker 2 (00:03):
Yeah, thanks for having us.
Thanks, guys.

Speaker 1 (00:05):
Absolutely so.
Quick introduction Nathan andMegan both come from creative
backgrounds.
They started out well.
Nathan started out in LA anddid an Act One mentorship
program for Christians inHollywood, trying to sort of
learn how to break into theindustry, if that's right.
Yep, in Hollywood, trying tosort of learn how to break into

(00:27):
the industry, if that's right.
And then that led to meetingMegan, who had a master's degree
in creative writing, and nowMegan sort of runs what they've
co-founded as the Visionary FilmProductions and she manages
most of the producerial side andNathan manages the creative
direction.

Speaker 4 (00:47):
Which is also a creative writer.

Speaker 1 (00:48):
Right?
Well, I'm sure that they'reboth very creative people and so
, yeah, welcome you guys.
We're so pleased to meet you.
We met you guys because we bothhave an upcoming um film
screenings at the same festivalin march and well, I guess,

(01:09):
technically, your guys is infebruary, the last day of
february, ours is march, the dayafter that, so congratulations
by the way on on getting inthere.
Yeah, thank you and that's umgrace by night.
So we really want to get intotalking about Grace by Night,
getting into some of thosegritty, nitty, gritty details
about that project specifically.
But I'd love to just get like alittle bit of background first.

(01:40):
How have you managed toapproach, or how do you guys
approach, familyresponsibilities with this crazy
entrepreneurial, creative,obsessive thing?

Speaker 2 (01:57):
that is independent filmmaking right.
Yeah, yeah, I like to say Ihave a secret weapon, which is
Megan.

Speaker 3 (02:21):
And I'm going to let her take that question yeah,
because she's the one who wetravel with our family, so, yeah
, so I would say, you know,really having the balance of
just all doing things together.
You know, our kids are on set.
We encourage, you know, thepeople who have children, have
families who are coming onto ourset to bring them during lunch
breaks, that sort of a thing.
So we really try to encourage afamilial sort of environment

(02:46):
because it's important to us.
We didn't want our kids to belocked away and not with us all
the time, because it's a hugepart of who we are.
So so, yeah, so I'd say thatthat's kind of like the basis of
how we manage it.
Now, the minutia of that looks alittle different every day.
We're up until one o'clock inthe morning having business
meetings with each other becauseit's been a crazy day, right.
But other times it's like we'rehaving breakfast and talking

(03:09):
about things and the kids arethere.
We're talking about budgets ordoing phone calls.
In between I'm working onthings on the computer, or you
know, some days we don't do anyof that stuff and totally just
lock ourselves away to familytime.
So we try to not really conformto this idea that it has to be
all or nothing with either sideand have a really good balance.

Speaker 1 (03:28):
Yeah, I can only imagine how much trial and error
has gone into that, because wewere also homeschooling for a
while.
We actually, when we startedfostering our two youngest kids
that are now adopted, it justexploded.
We had five kids, all under theage of seven or something seven

(03:50):
, that's busy.
It was too much to try tohomeschool for us at that point
luckily we lived in an area withreally good schools, so we were
actually really happy when weenrolled them in to public
schools, but like we were gonnadie, so I'm but we definitely
did the homeschool route and Iam such a a believer in in the
affordances.
Every, every site hasaffordances and limitations, but
I do think there are somespecial affordances to

(04:12):
homeschooling that I, I justadmire.
So I, I, I'm already like, wow,in awe, so impressed and just so
grateful.
There's awesome people um inthe world doing good stuff like
that, like really making familypriority in the midst of
something that can so easilyconsume our hearts, because,
because creativity is a work ofheart, you know, and it

(04:35):
sometimes I become obsessiveabout it.
And Anna and I have struggledfor ages to say, like how do we
put film in its place?
Like I watched my, I watched mybrother-in-law who's a CPA.
I mean, he's not a well, he'skind of comes from a CPA
background, but he's a financialguy and he just comes home and
like him and my sister don'ttalk about work, they just hang
out and I'm like, look at this,like home life that I recognize

(04:58):
from my childhood.
But I'm like I don't think I'vecreated that.
Like I'm just always thinkingabout film and we're talking
about it too much and so carvingthat out is such an intentional
effort, like I'm hearing thatFor sure.

Speaker 2 (05:09):
I think I'm the same way it's.
You know, work is constantly onmy mind, you know, because film
is so, you know you have to befully in it to make things
happen and so I have to shut itoff.
I've learned, you know, it tookme a lot of years to to, to
learn like I have to stopworking at a certain point and
give the time to the family.
Um, cause it can become just,you know, obsessive and uh, and

(05:32):
not having your prioritiesstraight I don't think really
helps projects, cause I used tojust work nonstop, you know.
I mean, even when I was withthe kids, I was thinking about
the movie and the scripts andlike, um, I don't think that's
really what God wants and Ithink it's it's hard to turn it
off, but I think, you know,family needs to be a priority,
even above the work, and I thinkthat God blesses that when

(05:52):
priorities are where they needto be.
You know, maybe I'd be doingfive more hours a day if I
wasn't dedicating the time tothe family, but that doesn't
necessarily mean it's going tobe blessed.
So I think, um, I think Godappreciates when we put things
in their place and make, youknow, work hard and do what we
can for them, uh, in the, in thecareer, but also know when to

(06:12):
turn it off, and so, like I said, that's something I've recently
been working on a lot.
Um, very hard when you'restarting a company and trying to
, you know, gain a foothold inthe industry, um, and I think
I'm slowly getting better at it.
I still got a lot of work to do, though, so work in progress,
but that's the goals is to makesure that I'm not only working
all the time.

Speaker 3 (06:30):
I will say I mean, I feel like what you're saying
with, you know, yourbrother-in-law and sister, like
I don't know, I couldn'tfunction like that.
Like if I'm not able to share,like the thing that I'm
passionate about, no matter whattime of day it is, if I'm on
nine to five or five to nine orwhatever, like that would drive
me crazy.
So I think, just being able tohave the same shared passion,

(06:53):
the same goal, the same interestin the way that it's like yes,
it's our career and we have toshut off like the career aspect
of it sometime, but still beingable to like get really excited
about what's coming next andlike share that with each other
constantly, I think that that'sa really big thing for us and
why we've had success in doingwhat we're doing because of the
open communication with that allthe time.

Speaker 4 (07:13):
I love that Like you can't just shut off a part of
who you are and be like okay,now I'm just a mom and and then
I'm just a filmmaker.

Speaker 1 (07:20):
It's like this is part of me and and our family
I'm letting it bleed in a waythat informs yeah, it's um.
Oh, go ahead.
I was gonna.
I was just thinking like, injust terms of like, um, so I
don't remember what I was gonnasay then it just blew it um it
will.
This is yeah.

Speaker 4 (07:39):
So this is a topic obviously we care about.
The podcast is called Film andFamily and it's fun to find
people who share that value.
I love what you said about thatfamily needs to come first,
because while we hope that noone has to choose between one or
the other film and family, likethat, they're not mutually
exclusive.
You can do both.

(08:00):
You do still have to chooseevery day between film and
family and small moments andpeople who I don't know tell me
your thoughts on this.
But this is something that'sbeen going through my head.
I see a lot of people who arelike let me just get my career
first and then start a familyonce I'm stable, once I've got
this taken care of.
And maybe they do.

(08:21):
Maybe they do get a career andthen get a family.
But I just think that kind ofshows an order of priorities and
if your career comes first,it's always going to come first
when push comes to shove and youhave to choose like, okay,
today do I work on this or do Ibe there for my family?
And obviously they both neednurturing.

Speaker 1 (08:40):
Yeah, it's always going to be hard.

Speaker 4 (08:41):
They have to live together.
But I just think if familycomes first, then your yeah,

(09:06):
it's always going to be hard.
Stories that we see are notrelatable, I think, to people
who are parents.
I see like I can count on onehand the number of portrayals of
parenthood and motherhoodspecifically that I actually
relate to, because they're notbeing told by people who have
successful families or who areprioritizing their families, and
so I just think it's so greatto have people like you two
doing that and telling storiesthat matter from a place of real

(09:27):
lived experience.

Speaker 3 (09:29):
Yeah, I mean, I think too, like, especially for like
women as mothers and wives andalso working like there's such
this polarization that you knowyou have you can have it all,
but then you can't, and thenmaybe you're just the career
person, or maybe you're just themom, or maybe you're just this
or that.
I'm like, I think that that'sreally been a disservice to
women in general.
And saying that, like you canhave your priorities straight

(09:51):
and you can have a re-evaluationof your priorities as you go
forward, but you can be amulti-faceted person without
having to be an extremist, yeah,yeah.
So I think that, like, likeyou're saying seeing more of
those portrayals of likerealistic women instead of this
polarization of like, oh, I haveto be this or I have to be that
, and then same for men.
I mean, I feel like men have,especially in the last few

(10:13):
decades, like been put intothese boxes of like you're this
type of a dad or you're thistype of a husband or you're this
type of a career person, and Idon't think that that's really
being honest.
Like stereotypes are there fora reason.

Speaker 2 (10:31):
But I also think that we fall into all of those
stereotypes at different pointsin the day.

Speaker 3 (10:32):
You know, sometimes I'm like, oh, I'm on a call and
I'm on this like big budgetmeeting, and then I have to go
and make lunch for my childrenright after you know.
So it's this idea of like youcan hold both in your hands and
you don't have to have them beheavy at the same time.

Speaker 2 (10:44):
But yeah, and I think you're right, though I think
there are there's a lack ofstory I'll just call it
authentic storytellingespecially in the Christian
world, and that's what we are.
Our goal is to do that.
We, you know, I think thatthere's so much potential in the
Christian film world, but,sorry, that's our kids, Just so
you know.
Yeah, I think that there'sthere's a lack of authentic

(11:10):
stories out there, and I thinkand the problem is, it usually
comes down to money.
So I think people have who arestarting off in the Christian
film industry, they have thisidea that's this Pollyanna world
of like everything's going tobe great and it's not always
about money anymore.
But the truth is it isunfortunately uh, it can be just
as much as or worse sometimesin the secular world as far as

(11:30):
we have to have the movie fitinto this box, because that's
what's selling tickets At theend of the day.
Those are the conversations youhave, whether it's a faith film
or not, and so that can make itvery difficult, as independent
filmmakers, to push the storiesthat are true and honest about
the lives that we're living.
So that's what we're doingwe're taking projects to studios
and pitching, telling storiesthat audiences feel again like

(11:54):
wow, that is my life, Like I dobelieve, like that's true to how
my life is, versus just kind ofthis like fake version of life
which you know we don't reallybuy into.
And I think it's important thatwe're authentic in the stories
that we're telling or they'renot going to help anybody.
So that's what we've beenworking on.
You know, we're talking toAngel Studios about some
projects and we're talking toPinnacle Peak and Great American

(12:15):
Media and these companies, butat the end of the day, if they
don't want to tell the kinds ofstories that we're telling, we
take it to someone else.
So I think there's a lot of alot of space to grow as, as
faith filmmakers, and to and totell these kinds of stories that
are that are honest with, youknow, the troubles that we're
having.
So an example would be notevery movie is.

(12:37):
You know, the worst thing thathappens is that they didn't open
the Bible that day, becausethat's some people's life.
But there's a lot of people whothey have a lot bigger issues
than that that we need to takeon Right Cause, like we think of
it, like Christ went out to thebroken, he went into the
streets, he hung out with theprostitutes to try to help them,
Like there's people out therewho need help and we want to try
to evangelize with our storiesand reach those people.

Speaker 3 (12:58):
So that's a big reason why we've always stayed
independent, though.
I mean, we've had a lot ofopportunities to, you know, just
work with certain places ordifferent studios, and I feel
like our highest priority hasalways been to maintain creative
control and and we don't eversacrifice that.
So you know it's it's difficultto break two apart.

(13:18):
So we kind of come with, youknow, a bigger front than just,
let's say, someone who's comingwith a script to a studio on
their own.
They need to attach a directorand a producer and all those
things when we come in, becauseit's with our company and we've
built it up and we own the story, we own the ideas, we own the
LLCs from the ground up.
There's more leverage that youhave.

(13:41):
I've always wanted to encouragepeople that you don't have to
wait on someone else to startyour dreams, for you to start
your projects, for you Like, youcan go out there and do it for
a lot less than what they say,that you can and still make it
look good.
You just have to not sacrificeon all the other things and
believe the hype with like youhave to use this crane and use
that thing and you you must usea catering service.

(14:01):
It's like it's not always likethat.
Yeah, yeah.
So we really try to encouragepeople to think outside of the
box, because, I mean, we don'twant to just be the only ones in
this sphere like what you guysare doing, where it's you
staying independent and you'redoing things more authentically.
We want to encourage people todo it too where I'm like.

Speaker 1 (14:25):
You know, I would be absolutely fine making a film if
I felt like the film with thevalues and the ideas that I'm
trying to explore is picked upby a studio.
I'm like, if they give me finalcut I'll do it, but that's not
likely.
I mean, usually if you jumpinto that too fast and I won't
say names because they'refilmmakers I admire.
But some of these peoplethey'll come out of Sundance or

(14:46):
they'll win Oscars, even withthese independent films, and
then they'll get sucked intolike a Marvel deal and they'll
go from making a $1 millionmovie to a $150 million movie
and they get lost in the machineLike that movie tanks.
Their art history is vacant,like there's nothing there.

(15:06):
But I wanted to go back tosomething you said, megan, is
that you said, um, like we don'tneed necessarily to like you,
you expressed an inner demonthat I have, which is this like
voice, that's always like no,but if it's not shot on this or
shot this way or done that wayand I get that voice, that voice
changes depending on what likebehind-the-scenes videos I'm

(15:27):
watching, or what interviews orwhat movies.
Even Like I watch a movie and Igo, everything needs to be
storyboarded.
And then I watch like Tree ofLife and I should say there's no
script, like I shouldn't scriptanything, and I just I do,
learning how to be creative withthat voice in my head and how

(15:48):
to balance that.
But I do like this idea of likelook, there's no right way.
We need to learn to like, leaninto our, our specific
affordances, our specifictalents, our specific stories,
needs, our resources.
I want to ask you guys havedistribution lined up already
for grace, by night, right?

Speaker 3 (16:09):
Yeah it.
It was released in October Juststreaming platforms.
We decided to go that route.
We had explored partnering witha lot of different studios for
that film for its release.
At a certain point we were goingdown the theatrical route and I
have a lot of thoughts on thetheatrical route for different
types of films but we were verypassionate about not just doing

(16:34):
something because you think thatthat's what every film should
do, yeah.
So we realized after a certainpoint, like this isn't going to
be the smartest decision forthis film at this point in time.
So we went forward with astraight you know, streaming
release and you know we're happyabout that so far.
It's.
It's one of those things whereyou want to like shout to the

(16:54):
rooftops to people about yourfilm, but you also have to know
that it's not one film, is notthe end or beginning of your
career, that it has to be abouta breadth of work.
So, um, yeah, we're excitedthat it's released.
It's been receiving amazingfeedback and a lot of awards
which you know we're veryhonored to have been recognized
for and received.

(17:14):
Um, we just really hope that wecan kind of shake people up a
little bit about what theyexpect from a certain genre.

Speaker 2 (17:20):
Yeah, I think too.
You know, I think everyfilmmaker at some point goes I
just want to see my movie in atheater, like that's kind of the
.
I think everyone's had thatdream.
But you know, very, very fewrealize what that entails.
And then also it all comes downto money, of course.
So you know it's how much moneydo you have for marketing and
how much are the distributorsgoing to put in?
And once you realize that for meat least, once I realized how

(17:42):
it's all about the money thatyou have or don't have, and
that's I can't judge my filmbased on if it gets into a
theater or not.
It's a lot.
It's kind of liberating becauseif you always are pushing, you
know, trying to chase thatcarrot of a theater, the theater
is not the right move.
A lot of times and a lot ofmovies that have been in
theaters, they went there butthey lost a lot of money, so
meaning they also can't maketheir next movie.

(18:02):
So I think you know filmmakersjust need to be smart about.
You know, if it's the rightproject, you have the right
backing to do it, great.
But don't feel like you didn'tmake it because your movie
doesn't go to a theater, becauseoften the ones that don't make
the most money.

Speaker 4 (18:14):
So you know, we all-.
And film festivals can be agreat way to get that theatrical
release and to you know, tourthe film and have a premiere
where everyone can come and havethat experience, without it
having to cost, you know, an armand a leg and more than your
production budget, I think it'sa liberating point that you're
bringing up, because what wereally want to do is get our
film where the audience is, andthe audience for our film might

(18:38):
not be in a theater, especiallyif I'm making a low budget
documentary or an indie drama.

Speaker 1 (18:45):
There might just not be enough spectacle to justify
my stereo mix going into anAtmos theater Like that just
doesn't make sense.
But that doesn't mean you can'thave a really successful
streaming run.
Like we know that, like somedocs do well in theaters when
there's big IP behind them, likeFred Rogers documentary in 2018
, I thought was superb.
I'm glad it went to theaters.

(19:06):
I went and saw it in theaters.
I love that film.
But other docs it's like I'mnever going to watch some of
these in a movie theater.
It's just not going to get outto that many screens.
I'd have to go drive up todowntown get a babysitter.
You're not just, it's going tobe hard and and then you look at
guys like a lot of people have,like the setup that's behind

(19:28):
you or that what we have.

Speaker 3 (19:29):
I mean people are either investing in larger
screen TVs and like surroundsound situations for their home
theaters or doing projectorsituations, so they're getting
that experience in their home ina way that people didn't maybe
five to 10 years ago.

Speaker 1 (19:43):
And there are some projects that it would be a good
fit for, like a theatrical runshould happen um.

Speaker 4 (19:48):
But I said like you know, we went and saw twisters
and I was like that's a good oneto see on the big screen
because it's, you know, it's gotthe scale and it there's a
reason to.
But our doc that's releasing atziff, I'm like it's cool to see
it on a big screen, but it itdoesn't have to be.

Speaker 1 (20:02):
But the festival run is that opportunity like you
said you have a question.

Speaker 4 (20:06):
Well, I just kind of want to get into what you talked
about.
So you said you know theproblem with not having good
Christian media is money, andI'm curious how you guys have
approached that as much asyou're willing to share.
I know numbers are, you know,sometimes.

Speaker 1 (20:20):
The movie's released, so we might be able to talk
some numbers.

Speaker 4 (20:25):
Is this your first feature?

Speaker 2 (20:26):
film.
This is our second, notincluding documentaries.
If you include documentaries,we've done like five, probably
feature length, and we'vedocumented a shorter version.

Speaker 1 (20:36):
many more, Let me tell you a spoiler I do count
documentaries as feature films.

Speaker 2 (20:42):
There you go.
Anyone on that?

Speaker 1 (20:44):
fence docs count.

Speaker 2 (20:46):
Especially if they're well-made.
But yeah, we're on.
I'd say this is probably numbersix, our next upcoming one.
But yeah, sorry, I lost trackof the question.
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (20:57):
I just no you're good .
Yeah, whatever you're willingto share.
As far as your approach tofinancing, how that has changed
from your first film to thisfilm over the years, you know.

Speaker 3 (21:09):
So one big thing I'm going to kind of preface this
with is that I think too fewpeople actually speak about this
kind of stuff.
I think that there's thisgatekeeping community of a
previous generation and itdrives us crazy.
Everywhere we go we say thestuff that everyone in the
audience that is older they'relike oh my gosh, I can't believe
.
She just said that percentage.
And I'm like yeah, cause ittook us years to find out that

(21:30):
information.
It's like we're, we're againstall of that.
So we like to talk aboutnumbers and how we do stuff
because at the end of the day,like we're unique individuals,
we're unique filmmakers.
If we don't share things withother people, like that means
that we're threatened and wedon't have a voice of our own
and that's.
I don't think that's good foranyone.
But yeah, so our approach forlike financing and all that kind

(21:50):
of stuff has always been kindof the same up until what we're
working on right now.
We've always done independentfinancing.
You know, we we started out along time ago before we kind of
went into the narrative anddocumentary stuff with, you know
, like freelance smaller videotype stuff, and I think that if
you build yourself up in anetwork with people that trust

(22:11):
you.
With smaller projects, you'regoing to meet people that can
finance your larger projects.
I really encourage people to dothat.
Don't think that a project istoo small or beneath you to work
with someone with, because ifthey're hiring you to do a job,
they probably have more moneythan just what they're paying
you.
So, you know, build thatrelationship, have it be
authentic, have it be genuine,like if somebody really gets
behind what you're doing.

(22:32):
You know, expand therelationship.
Talk more about financing, talkmore about, like, the projects
you want to do in the future.
That's always been really goodfor us and kind of how we
started out years and years ago.
You know, from that point on,you know it's always been
independent financing, but it'swith people that kind of work
outside of the industry.

(22:53):
I think that, especially withinChristian films, you had to do
that because either it's peoplewith diverse portfolios who want
to see better quality in acertain genre or they just want
the experience of being able tobe part of a film, and so we've
always done that.
You know people who are justreally passionate about the same

(23:13):
type of stories that we'reworking on, but we've met them
through lots of networkingthroughout the years.
You know, going to thefestivals, going to the galas,
working in your own community,volunteering, that kind of stuff
like being present in anauthentic way, not just to get
your film financed, so thatyou're building up who you are
as a company.

Speaker 2 (23:30):
But then also, you know, from a creative side of it
.
As far as budget goes, you know, obviously, making sure that
every dollar ends up on thescreen, not over staffing, make
sure you have.
What we do is we hire smallgroups of very talented people
who are very good at what theydo and eliminate the people who
will just be standing arounddrinking coffee that you don't
really need.

(23:50):
So that's one thing.
If I've worked in Hollywood,I've been on those sets, huge
sets, tons of people, lots ofmoney going in, and you're
wondering where all the money isgoing when you watch the movie.
So, like I learned from that,you know, put every dollar on
the screen, make sure that it's,you know, production value.
So a perfect example like onGrace by Night we have these
shots that are like on the carand it looks it looks basically
like a crane, is like riding onthe car right, like you have a

(24:13):
car rig.

Speaker 3 (24:13):
Okay, I need to interject here.
I would not necessarily suggestfor anyone to do what he's
about, to say that he did to getthose shots.

Speaker 2 (24:21):
Just a disclaimer.
I'll just leave it at this is,you can be creative in how you
do certain shots and get thesame look.
Um, you know, like you say youstoryboard and I do too.
Um, if you plan out properlyhow you're going to do it, and
then sometimes that's justhanging out with a gimbal on,
like with a small camp, you know, with a camera, with like they
make cameras like the reds.
You know the komodos are sosmall just figuring out creative

(24:43):
ways that you can get expensivelooking shots for nothing,
basically, and you just like,that's kind of the new way of
doing things.
I've talked to directors whohave been in the business for a
really long time and they don'teven know about the gear that's
out there nowadays.
So, because they're so used tothe way of doing it very
expensive for so long, and whenyou've been, when you've had to
make indie films, for so longyou can, you come up with, you

(25:04):
know, creative solutions on howto get things done for cheaper.
So that's what we do from abudget standpoint.
You know a lot of the money goesinto the actors and I will say,
um, I always get the right.
You know, I get a good camera,I get the alexa, we get the reds
, we get all the.
You know some things you can'tcheat like you have.
If you're going to compete withthese high quality movies, you
need movie cameras and you needa good grip package.

(25:25):
You need lights that are good,but, as far as you know, build
relationships.
If you meet people, you can getthings for free, like locations
.
That's places where you cansave on budget.
So we keep it as tight as wecan and how we shoot it, and
then a lot of the money will goto the actors, because those are
things you can't avoid and ifyou want to get faces that are
known, so um, but yeah, I meanI'll say this, the, the films

(25:48):
that were up against when I sayup against we are being
nominated with in these filmfestivals.
some of them, and most of them,are anywhere from five million
to like 10 million dollars, andwe're in the top five and our
budget, I'll say this, is verylow and it's I'll say it's way
under a million dollars, and Iwould say that when people watch

(26:10):
the film, they are shocked atthe cost that we make it for.
So my point is that you can becreative and you can make your
films look as good as these veryexpensive movies if you know
how to do it and you getcreative with how you do it.

Speaker 1 (26:24):
Okay.
So I'm really impressed by evenknowing that it's under a
million, because I would have.
I would.

Speaker 2 (26:30):
I'll say that it's under 500 000.

Speaker 1 (26:32):
Wow okay, I would have confidently guessed 1.5
million on the trailer so that'sthe goal.
We try to do, we try to mainlybecause of production value and
cast, because I mean, if it wasjust production value I would
have said easily under a million.
But with the cast you guys got,I was like they had to have

(26:53):
made concessions, and then youget SAG stuff happening and then
all of a sudden you're at 1.5million and you blinked.

Speaker 2 (26:58):
You know easy For sure All the money went to the
actors.

Speaker 3 (27:02):
I will say to people don't be afraid to negotiate
with agents, like I mean,sometimes, if you just ask and
say, hey, this is what I have towork with, like how can we
offset things, how can we kindof negotiate to make this happen
, if they really want to be apart of this?

Speaker 2 (27:17):
film If they believe in the script, if you wrote a
good script or you have one thatcan get their fees down.
Actors may not like that.
I'm saying this, but we're, thefilmmakers, got to look out for
each other.
If your story is really goodand it's something that they
haven't made, which again goesback to break, you know, be
outside the box.
Otherwise you just if you'reblending in, nobody's going to
see anything new to it.
They're not even going to wantto do it, or they'll be like

(27:38):
I've already done this movie bymaking something that's unique
and using your voice and going adifferent direction.
They're like wow, I've neverread anything like this.
I'll do it, and I'll do it forcheaper.
So if your story is good, youcan negotiate prices down.

Speaker 1 (27:49):
Okay.
So I got to interrupt, nathan,I got to chastise you.
You didn't finish your story.
What did you do?
What did you do with the carshots?
Oh yeah, I have a.
Um, I have a buddy.

Speaker 2 (28:02):
So here's a perfect example.
You can build relationships andsave some money.
Um, I have a buddy who's a copand we basically I got in the
car with him and he drove, andso that if we were speeding
because I need him to go fast,no, the cops aren't going to
stop us.
He knows all the cops.
So, yeah, I put a camera on agimbal and literally like hung

(28:22):
out the car as far as I possiblycould and put the camera like
on the ground, while he hungonto my belt loop to like keep
me in the car, which is reallynot safe.
That's what she was saying, andI'm hanging out and I'm getting
as many shots as I can.

Speaker 3 (28:41):
So you, uh, again, I don't recommend necessarily
going that far, but it's alsowith our camera too.
So, like we invested, we'veinvested in some equipment and
you know for b-roll b camerasand things like that.
Um, and I'm like don't you dropthat camera?

Speaker 2 (28:48):
I'm like, don't you do it, but you know there's a
lot of there's a lot of filming.
You'll find ways to get theshots you want and, um, you know
soderbergh's like known fordoing it.
He'll just go gorilla style andpick up shots wherever you can.
So just you know you can findways to get it done for cheap
and that would.
That's.
These are shots that would havelooked like a whole crew was
there and you know, no, I justthose kinds of things, uh, to
keep the budget down, or like Iwould.

(29:08):
Even we had night scenes wherewe're chasing a car and I would
just I was literally had themonitor in my car and I'm just
chasing the guy down the roadmyself.
So you get your shots with youractors when they're expensive
and then do some second unitstuff and there's some amazing.

Speaker 1 (29:22):
It's amazing what you can get second unit just with
like very few people and thenpeek it in and make it look uh,
like there's, you know, it's allwell and I just want to like
sort of like validate that, thatthat idea, because you're right
that, like I look at um behindthe scenes on like even lord of
the rings, yeah, there's shotsof like the producer going into
the woods and like getting shotsof orcs jumping over the camera

(29:45):
and he's just sticking a camerainto the leaves and they're
just jumping over it.
It's like that shots in themovie.
Like I saw him doing that it'sliterally a crew of one with
like all these awesome costumesand stuff, but they just ran off
and said we need to get morestuff.

Speaker 4 (29:58):
So, yeah, you always go back to that route of, at the
end of the day, we get thisdone and do our best that's
where, if you can find peoplewho can wear multiple hats like
that, I feel like that's wherewe save a lot of money, because
we've developed between the twoof us a lot of skills, we can
all wear lots of hats, and whenwe get a small team that's very

(30:19):
talented like that, you can do alot with a little.

Speaker 1 (30:22):
So can I verify Nathan, you shot Grace by night.

Speaker 2 (30:26):
I wasn't the DP.
Oh, okay, I have a partner thatI work with.

Speaker 3 (30:30):
He did second unit.

Speaker 2 (30:31):
I shoot second unit though, so yeah, I sometimes
will go out and shoot my ownstuff.

Speaker 1 (30:34):
Who was your DP on Grace by night?

Speaker 2 (30:36):
His name's Ben Grant.
By night.
His name's Ben Grant.
He's a really, really talenteddude.
That's how we would do it.
We would break it up and youknow, on the days with the
actors when you're spending alot of money, the whole crew's
there and then I don't even knowI probably shot like 15, 20
minutes just on my own that we,you know, you, piece in.
So but yeah, I think you'reright and you're the kind of

(30:57):
people who get the movies made.
In this kind of climate we livein with the movie business, and
how crazy it is, you have to bewilling to wear a lot of hats
and you have to be willing tothink of creative ways to get
the stuff you need.
And if you want it bad enough,you'll get the movie made.

Speaker 4 (31:11):
Yes, and it's more fun anyway, because I've also
been.
I do acting as well and when Iact on a big you know, disney
set or some big studio, no one'spassionate.
I mean, maybe there'sexceptions, but what I've seen
is that everyone's there becauseit's a job.
They're there to do their joband there's not the like, the
passion and the teamwork and theexcitement of indie filmmaking.

(31:31):
That that I love.

Speaker 2 (31:34):
We heard that a lot on our set.
Many people who work on bigmovies came to ours and they
were like the feeling of this isso much nicer, like it's nice
how everybody actually believesin the project we're making.
It like it reminded me of likethe film school days, you know,
and yeah, and then you kind ofget lost in the shuffle.
On the big movies, on the bigones, it's like they're just
kind of getting the job done andthen moving on to the next one,

(31:56):
so there's never even time toreally care that much, it's just
like checking it off the boxand move to the next movie.
So yeah, I think, keeping atight crew, you know of people,
and being careful in who youhire like you know, hire, hire
people that are very experiencedand good but also have good
personalities and you want tonot just their skill, hire them
for the who they are as a person.

(32:16):
That's really important too, Ithink.

Speaker 3 (32:24):
Yeah, taking time and doing a lot of interviews, a
lot of like walkthroughs withpeople to really see, like, how
they're going to be on set,because you know you can we
never ask anybody to work harderthan us.
But people are much more willingto work really hard when
they're on set if they'retreated with dignity, when
they're taken care of, when it'spositive environment, when
there's not toxicity, likethat's really important.
And I think some people thinklike, oh, a low budget means
that you have to treat people ina certain way and it's not like

(32:46):
that, like you can stillprovide really great experiences
for people and get them goodfood and it doesn't, you know,
make relationships in yourcommunity.
I always come back to the foodthing because I really believe
like we have a lot ofrelationships with very unique
type of vendors here too, whereyou can get like poke bowls.
People are like, oh, my gosh, Iget to make my own thing.
Be like, yeah, and it's stillunder budget.

(33:06):
It's like I'm still matchingwhat I would do with a catering
service or coming in below andit's just a better experience
for others.

Speaker 4 (33:15):
Yeah, Did you do that just by reaching out to
restaurants and seeing if theywould like?

Speaker 3 (33:21):
yeah, I mean it just it would be able for a credit or
something, or yeah, I meansometimes it's like a sponsor,
sponsor thing, like we can haveshout outs on social media.
You know, you can reallyencourage, like your cast, to be
like.
Oh my gosh, this is the best X,y and Z that I've had in
Birmingham.

Speaker 1 (33:41):
That's really smart.

Speaker 2 (33:41):
Especially if you have like name any degree of
talent that that's smart.
I never thought that's a greatidea.
Food can really bankrupt you ifyou're not careful.
I mean like if you do it youcan save a lot of money though
if you do it right, like a lotof money, like she gave gave me
a lot of money to do creativestuff that I wouldn't have had
if she hadn't done the foodright.

Speaker 3 (33:55):
So yeah, and you know and taking on those
responsibilities, that thensometimes maybe you'd have to
hire on someone else to do andhave their own position to do
those things.
If you do them with anassistant, with an intern that
you're helping to kind of teachand guide along the way, you can
get a lot more done withouthaving to sacrifice with the
budget Again, having anotherline item with another person.

Speaker 4 (34:16):
I love that when I produced a short film when I was
in high school and called abunch of local restaurants and
there were buffets and bakeriesthat have to throw away their
food at the end of the day, itwas mutually beneficial for them
to donate their food that theyweren't going to use otherwise
and get credit anywayno-transcript is like yeah, how

(35:04):
much of this can I actually domyself?
You can save a lot of moneywith time.

Speaker 1 (35:10):
It's a tricky balance .
It's a tricky balance, but itjust depends on where you're at
in your career.

Speaker 4 (35:15):
Sometimes that time is more valuable and sometimes
it's worth it to save the timeor take the time I should say
whatever your resources are thatyou can put in and most of us
go ahead.

Speaker 3 (35:27):
Oh, I was just saying most of us they both want to
talk, so the idea of, like,having a good balance with
family though, too, andrecognizing like, hey, if I take
on this other job, is it goingto be a sacrifice to what I have
to do with my family at thismoment?
Like, do I have enough hours inthe day to really do that, or
is it better for everyone, evenif it costs a little bit more,
to have someone else do that job?

(35:48):
Yeah, there are exceptions,definitely.

Speaker 1 (35:51):
Yeah, because you can't do everything.
I wanted to go back to family,since you brought it up.
You mentioned at the beginningthat you sometimes have your
family on set with you.
You mentioned at the beginningthat you sometimes have your
family on set with you.
Our first film was like thescrappiest indie film you've
ever seen, and we had all threeof our kids in the film.

Speaker 2 (36:10):
And we do that too.

Speaker 1 (36:16):
What's the?
Tycho, itt and Hemsworth weredoing an interview and he was
like, yeah, my, my kids in inthe film, and so is, uh, chris's
kid was in the film.
It's um, it's cheaper it's true.

Speaker 2 (36:31):
I mean, no, yeah, we, we put them in the film, um and
uh, have them on set.
You know they love it.
You know for kids it's like uh,it's like summer camp to be on
a movie.
You know they have fun at leastours do.
Yeah and um.
But yeah, I mean I think all mykids have been in all of our
films, uh, since we started.
You know they're not always bigparts, but it helps them, you
know, feel like they're a partof the team.

(36:52):
They understand how movies workand things like that.

Speaker 3 (36:54):
So within a grace by night.
I don't know if you guys havewatched it yet or had.

Speaker 1 (36:58):
Anyway, I didn't realize.
I didn't realize it was, it wasreleased, I was thinking it was
.

Speaker 3 (37:02):
No, no, no, you're fine, but we needed a screaming
baby and we just happened tohave a 15 month old who at any
time I put her down and not haveher on me, she would cry.
So it works really well and youdon't have to handle with the
parents, but I already know whatthe mom's going to be like.

(37:25):
So, um, you know stuff likethat where you can kind of fit
the situation to work well andthen she's able to be with us on
set like all day, which wasreally fun too.
Um, just to have her around andlike everybody gets to meet
your kids too, and then it'sthat that work family
environment.
They grow up knowing the peoplethat you're working with.
So it's not this like oh, it'sa foreign world when mom and dad
leave and go on set.
I love that.

Speaker 1 (37:42):
So two questions following up with that how?
This is just pure logisticscuriosity how, how do you don't
have your kids on set every day?

Speaker 2 (37:53):
No, no, no, no, no, couldn't do that.
Okay, now we pick, we pick outwhich days that they can be
there.

Speaker 3 (37:59):
So uh, we usually have family come in.
We have really supportivefamily members, either, you know
, like grandparent typesituations, or you know I have a
really close cousin who's comein like stayed with the or you
budget in your babysitting.
You know it's.
And that's where you kind ofhave to say like okay, it's a

(38:19):
really big day.
It wouldn't be fair to anyoneLike I need to make sure that
all of my attention is on thishuge effects driven day and you
can't have anybody showing up.
Like not at all.
Like I need to leave beforethey're awake and I need to come
home after they're in bed.
So, but balancing that out too,you know, gives them an
opportunity to haverelationships with other people

(38:39):
that they might not spend awhole lot of time with
consecutively in their life,like cousins, like grandparents,
stuff like that well, and whenit's only a few weeks out of the
year, you know, becauseproduction's such a small part
of making the whole movie, it'sreally like, especially for you
guys.

Speaker 4 (38:54):
You're homeschooling.
They're getting so much moretime with you than most kids do
with their parents.

Speaker 3 (38:58):
The rest, of the year yeah like you try to remind
them of that.
But then they're like why doyou work so much?
Be like well, you don't knowhow good you have it, kid yes,
no.

Speaker 1 (39:07):
so I, I definitely want to push back on any parent
guilt that comes with this,because even people with normal
jobs sometimes have to work verylate very frequently.
So you do your best and I thinkthat sometimes it's like how do
I make the the?
It does come down to quantitysometimes, and then sometimes it
does come down to quality andit's just balancing that.
Um, so yeah, and I appreciateyou guys.

(39:29):
My follow-up question was goingto be how do you, if you do
keep them on set every day?
How the heck what if youactually need them to be quiet,
like we've done it before?

Speaker 3 (39:36):
And I mean there are times where I mean they have to
be a certain age to reallyunderstand.
Like, hey, we're filming, butthen that goes back to the more
that they're around it, the morethey understand.
Like this is for acompartmentalized amount of time
during this take, you cannotsay a word or you're not going

(39:57):
to be allowed to be here for amoment.
I mean, I feel like that's justboundaries, Just like in any
other situation, it's manners,it's being a good person, it's
following.
You know, a rule for everyoneon set.
It's not just that they have tobehave that way, everyone there
.

Speaker 2 (40:09):
But they get one chance.
If they blow a take and it wasa good one, then they're going
to be taken outside.

Speaker 3 (40:15):
But I also usually have kept them enough distance
away where it's not an issue.
You know, being in a green roomor you know craft services area
kind of tends to help a littlebit.

Speaker 1 (40:28):
Well, and that, and that goes to what you said about
age, because there's an,there's an inappropriate
expectation to have of a of atwo or three year old to be like
, can't you just sit still forsix hours and not say anything
Like ridiculous right Like andwe've experienced that on our
first film, where we were likeoh yeah, Anna's supposed to be
directing this movie and ourchildren are here and they're

(40:51):
completely dependent.
Still, why did we notlogistically foresee this?
You know, that's, that's.

Speaker 4 (40:55):
We flew his mom out to watch the kids, but then when
they were on set, she was withthe other kids at home and we
had some kids on set and we werelike, oh, we should have hired
someone else on set.
Anyway, we had a very similarsituation.

Speaker 2 (41:08):
And then also, you know, grandma's not always ready
to, she's not used to havingthe kids for so long, you know,
and for so many days.
And so, yeah, adapting, adaptor die.

Speaker 1 (41:19):
Yes, yes, I just hope I never forget, but I think
maybe we all just will when weget older.

Speaker 3 (41:26):
Yeah.
I think that's probably youknow why people end up Isn't
that what they say that the nextgeneration always thinks that
they can do it better than theone before, which is why we're
all still having children andgoing forward thinking that we
can like.
Conquer the world, yes, andthen still having children and
going forward, thinking that wecan like the world, and then
everybody else forgets.

Speaker 4 (41:43):
And you know, it's all just rose-colored glasses,
right, and then we forget, andthen, and then we're like judge
again, and then we judge again.

Speaker 1 (41:47):
We say, you know, grandparents are like why?
Why are you guys so stressedout all the time?

Speaker 2 (41:52):
it's nicer like you, forgot what it's like having
kids.

Speaker 4 (41:56):
Yes, exactly exactly come watch them for a little bit
, so you can remember yeah ourfirst film, people said doesn't
it give you p of being a youngparent?

Speaker 1 (42:03):
We're like good.

Speaker 3 (42:07):
You know I'm suffering.

Speaker 4 (42:11):
So I loved, megan, what you shared a little tip
about like don't be afraid tonegotiate with an agent.
And, nathan, you said youprioritize actors with your
budget and putting it all on thescreen and acting.
So I'm just curious about howyou guys approach that.
Like, do you work with thecasting director?
Do you call the agents directlyyourself?
Um, and then and then, alsobecause you said you want to

(42:35):
work with people who are reallygreat to work with great
personalities as well astalented, how do you navigate
that with bigger actors?

Speaker 1 (42:42):
um, because they all have terrible personalities.
What?

Speaker 4 (42:48):
do you do to kind of?

Speaker 1 (42:50):
vet.
Yeah, how do you vet that?

Speaker 2 (42:52):
yeah.
So, um, I'll say that itdepends on the actor.
I've done both and I do both.
So I do have a couple agenciesthat, um, they'll send me people
, but, at the end of the day, Ialways end up doing so much of
the work that I I actuallyhaven't often used a casting
director specifically just to godo the job, because I end up
having to watch all the tapes.

(43:13):
I know exactly what I'm lookingfor, um, and I, oftentimes, you
know, I I have to go find them.
And because I'm doing so muchof that work, I was like, okay,
well, you know, I have to gofind them.
And because I'm doing so muchof that work, I was like, ok,
well, you know, we can save onthe budget here.
I'm not saying everyone shoulddo this, yeah.
What I typically do have,though, is a casting director
will send me maybe 10 people fora role, and they'll say, hey,

(43:34):
take a look at these people, andI'll pinpoint maybe there's
three, and I'll ask her to havethem send tape.
So I'll kind of get, like,assistance, but I'll take the
lead role of doing the casting,kind of the reverse of what it
usually is, where it's usually,you know, the director's kicking
it and they're sendingeverything.
I usually take the the jobmyself, but, yeah, I just found
that watching so many tapes andthen the casting director

(43:58):
understanding exactly what I'mvery specific about, what I'm
looking for, is difficult.
And yeah, I mean, if you havethe budget for it, though, down
the down the line, as your filmsget bigger and bigger, I will
probably lean into using themmore than I do right now.
On the films we've done so far,though, I've had success just
casting myself and then allother.

(44:19):
You know, when the actors getbigger and bigger, then they'll,
at the end of the day, theydon't care who they're getting
the offer from, they care aboutthe money's on the table.
So they're going to say what'sthe offer?
That's the question you'regoing to get.
They're not going to even askabout your script.
They're going to say how muchso, for better or worse.
That's what the business is,and if you're the person with
the money and you can give themthe money, then they'll do your

(44:40):
movie, and if you can't, thenthey'll say bye, I don't even I
don't have time to, you're notgoing to read it.
So it doesn't really anybodycan do it if you have the money
in the bank at the end of theday.

Speaker 4 (44:55):
What I've heard and this is maybe the myth is that
you, you know, anyone can getIMDb Pro and find their agent
and reach out to their agent andmake an offer and if there is
money on the table, their agentis required to pass it along to
the actor.

Speaker 2 (45:09):
That is right.
Yep, oh, that's true.
So yeah, I mean and obviouslythe bigger your budgets get, you
would want someone answeringthe phone for you so you don't
have to do it all.
I mean, that's the whole idea.
So, yeah, answering the phonefor you so you don't have to do
it all.
I mean, that's the whole idea.

Speaker 3 (45:22):
So yeah, I think on our next films we will be using
a casting director a lot moreFor streamlining, I think, when
you're looking to add a certainnumber of cast that you're
trying to fulfill roles for, andmaybe some are a little bit
more vague, you know, not evensupporting roles, but just like
tertiary roles, that's where acasting director can really be
implemented.
Well, I think that, like forthe very, I think too it's

(45:44):
personality of the director, um,and when you are very specific
with a vision, I mean Nathan isdefinitely like that, he's a
very like I want this angle, Iwant this lighting, I want the
color scheme to be this likeit's all done prior to in his
mind as he's writing.
So you already know who you'relooking for, yeah, at for the,

(46:04):
the casting experience.
So, yeah, um, I think that too,it's almost like if it takes
longer to relay something thanit than it does just to do it
yourself, um, for the specific,the higher roles, um, that's
where we've done.

Speaker 2 (46:17):
Often that happens where it becomes longer and
harder to work with the otherpeople than to just go get it
done yourself.
But that's been our experiencein general of making a movie.
It's like sometimes you end upwearing a lot of hats because
it's just faster to just go doit.

Speaker 1 (46:31):
I think it's a natural progression as well,
though as you scale up, youstart to have to delegate, you
start to get better, and youstart to find the people who can
catch the vision quickly.

Speaker 4 (46:39):
Yes, you start to have to delegate, you start to
get better and you start to findthe people who can catch the
vision quickly and kind of.

Speaker 1 (46:42):
Yes, you start to develop shorthands with certain
people and so you can kind ofexpand out and say like I don't
have to manage you anymore, so Ican bring on another person and
it just grows.
Let me ask you guys aboutunions, because that's another
thing that we don't talk about alot, but that changes your
budget rapidly, right?

Speaker 4 (47:00):
Like if you're working with SAG?

Speaker 3 (47:02):
Is Alabama a right to work state?
So, to be honest, we don't.
We don't tend to work withinunion structures.

Speaker 2 (47:09):
Not that we are now.

Speaker 3 (47:11):
We follow all of the standards, but we we've worked
outside of it for the majorityof our career.

Speaker 2 (47:21):
So yeah, so yeah, I think it depends on you, know
your actors that you're lookingto get and I think that a lot of
actors that people think willonly do union projects.
They're wrong.
Now, again, this isn'tsomething that actors are going
to want me necessarily to talkabout but, like I said, they
believe in the project.
There are actors even who youknow.
With FICOR you can, you cansign that and you can do both

(47:41):
union and non-union.
Not all actors will do it, butthere are quite a few that will.
Um, because they need work andhonestly, like there's there's
they know, if it's a, if it's adirector that they like and
there's a story that they like,they can do that.
Um, but you get up into the likethe bigger actors very few.
If we're talking like a list,obviously those guys probably
aren't going to do non-unionprojects.

(48:03):
But, um, I don't working in thefaith space and we're kind of
branching now into both kind ofmix of secular and faith.
But in the faith space there'sI don't feel like there's a lot
of actors that are so big and soyou know I won't do that.
Um, there are probably.
There are some, but most ofthem, if it's a good role and

(48:23):
they like who they're workingwith.

Speaker 4 (48:25):
They can do it, they can work out of that and you
said that thing earlier about,like you know, we gotta look out
for other filmmakers and actorswon't like me saying this, but
like I'm an actor, not a bigactor, but I'm an actor and I'm
like.
No, I think actually actorswant to do great work, like they
want lots of options peoplearen't offering them the roles
because they're scared takingthe roles that pay.
That aren't great because theypay, and they would much rather

(48:48):
do something, even if it's notpaid as much, that they're
passionate about, and I justthink.
I don't think that ever changes, even for bigger actors.

Speaker 1 (48:56):
Offer the role and for someone, for someone, it's
going to be a great opportunity.
They're going to love that youoffered.
I wanted to ask you just toclarify for our listeners' sake.
You were saying something aboutlike uh, ficor, could you
explain like?

Speaker 4 (49:12):
what that is, union versus non-union SAG FICOR.

Speaker 3 (49:16):
Yeah, I mean, I think it's like one of those things
that people are like oh, don'ttalk about it, like, but it's
you know being a SAG right.
And you know there's a littlebit of fear mongering behind it
too, which isn't real.
But it's people who are withinthe SAG union can basically,
like, sign off to be able to donon-union projects, but they

(49:38):
don't have the same SAGaffiliation.
They're allowed to do SAG andnon-union, but there's a certain
part of their membership thatisn't quite the same.
It's not pension, because Iknow that it's all still covered
, but it's some sort of fee oracknowledgement or something
like that.
But I just know that somepeople are willing to not worry

(50:03):
about what other people in theindustry think about their SAG
membership.
Other people are a little bitmore concerned about it.
Now, I do get, if you're at acertain level and you're trying
to build your SAG credibility,wanting to maintain that.
But I think that too, it's justkind of been this unfortunately

(50:24):
, unions have turned into morecontrolling of the people within
them than supporting the peoplewithin, and so we really try to
encourage people to look intoit, to do their own research
about it, and so that it's notlike oh I think that you should
do this for our project, andthen they feel uncomfortable
later, like do your research,find out, like if it's something

(50:45):
that they want to be interestedin um and then move forward
from there because, like I saidthat there's just a lot of
misconceptions, uh, about whatit means, like that you're
lowering yourself on what youcan and cannot accept for work.

Speaker 2 (50:59):
But that's not the case.
I also think even a lot ofactors aren't even understand
what five core is.

Speaker 4 (51:04):
I think I don't like.
I'm SAG eligible but I'vechosen not to join because I
don't want to like be a burdenon productions and say like you
have to meet all these standardsand unless I got a really great
offer on a SAG project that Icouldn't take unless I joined,
otherwise there's no reason forme to join in my mind Right and
like you said, I mean itradically changes your budget,

(51:25):
so like and a lot of it's goingto the union.

Speaker 2 (51:28):
Obviously so it's.
You know there's no way wewould have made race by night
for what we did.
If it had been union it wouldhave been impossible.

Speaker 3 (51:34):
But every time that we, you know, we talked to
anyone who either is FICOR orwho has considered it or is
thinking about, you know,joining SAG.
We're like you know.
We want you to understand thatyou're still going to be
compensated appropriately, likewe still.
We still pay for the SAG.

Speaker 2 (51:49):
You know rates so you know, depending on who the
actor is, some get more, someget less, but like we'll never
go below the minimum SAG rate.
So it's not like they'regetting treated poorly.
In fact they, like I've saidthey they always say they get
treated better on our sets thananywhere else.
That are union.
So I know the union, you know,is out there and a lot of times
they say, well, it's to makesure that the filmmakers treat
the crew correctly, but inreality it actually kind of goes

(52:12):
the other way.
We found and we've had manypeople say oh yeah, we just get
beat up on those sets and likeyou guys aren't union, but we're
actually getting treated like10 times better and they love it
.
So it's all about who you areas a person, right?
Not the paperwork that saysyou're going to do this or that.
It's about who you are andwhether you hold to the way
you're supposed to treat people.

Speaker 1 (52:30):
Yeah, if we haven't learned anything from everything
that becomes somewhat systemicor political, it's that we
cannot systematize characterright.
We cannot force people to begood people and regulations and
laws and everything that wecreate like, at the end of the
day, people have to choose, evenon film sets, to like treat

(52:50):
people with dignity, like yousaid.
So that's a really greatreminder.

Speaker 4 (52:53):
Yeah, well, and what?
And this is just to go back tothe other question I still want
to know how you vet cast or crewor anyone you're working with,
just because I know that, likein the early stages, when
everything's good, it's supereasy to be amicable and for
everyone to get along.
And then, when the pressure'son and you're in the heat of the
moment, some people struggle tobe kind and that one toxic

(53:18):
person can really bring down awhole set.

Speaker 1 (53:21):
And maybe because of budgetary concerns, we don't
usually get to spend a lot ofrehearsal time with actors.
Actors usually come in day one,hit the ground shooting, and
then it's like, oh, now I'mgetting to know this person and
there's just not a lot of liketrust built up yet.
So how do you guys manage that?

Speaker 2 (53:38):
Yeah.
So I will say this Like when Iwas like in high school making
films, you know, trying to learnthe crafts of filmmaking, I was
horrible, like I had a creativevision, but I was horrible at
managing people Right, andthat's something that I think
comes with time and practice,cause I would be like a wreck.
I'd be like I just got to getthis shot and I'd be running
like what you see, actually,sadly, professionals who are
supposed to be professionalsdoing all the time.

(53:59):
I mean, I've heard lots ofscreaming on on big movies and
that's the opposite.
They should have learned.
But anyway, so over time Ifigured it out if you, as the
director, producer, whatever yougive to the crew is what
they're gonna feed off of, right?
So if you're calm and collected, even if you're not in your
head, you have to keep that onthe set.
You got to keep things calm yeah, it's doesn't help anybody, uh,

(54:23):
to get people running aroundand angry.
And then, like you said,there's that one person who will
start spreading I can't standthis, and that goes to the next
person.
So that's like a priority in mymind, like I'm always thinking
how am I talking to this personand how, even if I'm in a hurry,
I'm calm and I'm collectedabout it, because if you're not,
it can ruin the entire movieand it's your job to do that.

(54:45):
You're leading them, so they'regoing to follow the example
that you set.
And, like I said, I've been onsets where everybody's screaming
directors that I know who.
They think that people feed offdrama better and they work
better like that.
But that's to me.
I've never found that to betrue.
So I think it's just aconscious effort and if you're
like panicking in your mindwhich hopefully you've done
enough pre-planning to where youdon't have it, things always go

(55:06):
wrong.
But if you've planned itproperly, you've thought about
those things that are going togo wrong, and sometimes you
haven't, but you have an idea ofwhat to do instead.
So proper planning helps keepthings, you know, in a place
where you've kind of foreseensome of the problems and and
even if things aren't going well.
Just you got to keep a levelhead, or like it can be.

Speaker 3 (55:28):
It just has to be a conscious thing that you do.
As far as like vetting goes, Ithink what's been really
important to us is havingmultiple conversations with
people prior to and, like you'resaying, then eventually
everyone's on set andpersonalities are there and
maybe you didn't anticipate, oh,this personality and this
personality that's not going towork well.
But maybe they're in differentdepartments and you can kind of
just be that mom and kind of pateverybody's head every once in

(55:48):
a while and be like it's goingto be okay, go and have a soda
and we'll be.
We'll talk about this later, umyeah, managing personality, I
mean I also really believe in.
You know, talking to people,being very transparent with them
as you're going through thehiring process, as you're going
through the casting process.
We do a lot of I don't knowlike test screening type.

(56:10):
You know interviews, stuff withour cast where we'll have them
read with us multiple times andwe'll have them read against
each other, like over, zoom,just like over and over and over
again, to see like not just howthey're doing the lines, but
how are they interacting, priorto even beginning you know that
scene.
How are they able to like jokearound a little bit?
Are they able to be nice toeach other and ask, hey, how are

(56:32):
you doing?
You know?
Things like that kind of tellsyou a lot about character.

Speaker 2 (56:36):
They're basically Zoom rehearsals.
Yeah, so you're kind of youknow because we were doing this
kind of stuff during COVID but Irecommend doing that.

Speaker 3 (56:51):
That anyway, I mean before you fly somebody out, you
don't?
I think you can find out a loton a couple of zoom calls, yeah,
so, but also you know whenyou're on set and it's if those
things are kind of flaring, um,pulling people aside and showing
them um respect instead ofhumiliating people in front of
an entire group.
I think that oftentimes peoplethink like, oh, I'm just going
to handle this immediately infront of everybody, right now
and make my point known.
And it's like, oh, I'm justgoing to handle this immediately
in front of everybody, rightnow and make my point known, and
it's like that's just shaming,like it's not.

Speaker 2 (57:10):
Yeah, I mean, I'm very conscious.
Even when I'm giving directionto an actor, I go over to them
and I'm talking in a quiet voice.
I'm not.
Hey, that was horrible.

Speaker 4 (57:17):
Do it again.

Speaker 2 (57:18):
You know, like you got it, you got to be conscious.
These guys are like doingthey're very vulnerable, so you
can't.
And you're an actress, youunderstand.
I always walk over.
I don't live in Video Village.
I always got to be right thereand I talk to them quietly where
I can give direction that way.

Speaker 3 (57:48):
And that those kinds of things make a difference,
especially if it's an actor whoyou know is very jumpy and like
and doesn't like to be critiquedor anything like that.
You got to be respectful ofthat.
You know method acting not likerehearsing a lot, not
rehearsing like there's just alot of different ways to get to
that character, but beingrespectful of those things and
also knowing what comes witheach one one, so that you are
prepared as the producer, as thedirector of like okay, this

(58:11):
person is going to be goingthrough a lot emotionally over
these days, you know, and reallykind of anticipating how can I
best prepare everyone forhandling that?

Speaker 2 (58:17):
And treating each person according to who that
person is.
It's not an across the boardthing.
I'm sure you guys understandthat.
You know each person deals withthings in a completely
different way, so being able toswitch when you need to to give
them the direction they need.

Speaker 4 (58:30):
And I think also just prioritizing the time if
something does flare up, ifthings are happening on set.
I know on our first film therewas some of that and I felt
worried about like taking thetime to like let's just every
morning start together anddiscuss things before we get
going, but we had to do it Likewe had to start taking more time
to communicate.

(58:50):
Yeah, communicate and beunified before we could make
something together and it's justworth it to do that.

Speaker 1 (58:57):
I also like how I slanted that question towards
like aren't actors the worst?
And you immediately were likeactually, the responsibility is
completely ours.
Right, like they will followthe example you set, right.
Like no, that's really true,though.
It's like, as a directorproducer, like our first film.
I was producer DP.

Speaker 2 (59:17):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (59:18):
And I had like my AC was a high schooler at the time,
yeah, he was volunteering,greatest kid ever.
I had the day where I literallychucked a tripod into a grass in
the grass, it wasn't like on aset or anything, because we like
missed it.

(59:38):
We literally missed a train.
Yeah, and and um, and I wasjust so mad.
I just was like I'm so sick ofmaking this movie where nothing
is prepared.
We miss everything by twominutes and then the moment we
missed the light, we missed thetrain, we missed the moment, we
and everything just keepsfalling through.
And I was so mad, and and it'slike, and he was so emotionally

(01:00:03):
centered that that kid, he wasjust like well, what do you want
to do next?
You know, like.

Speaker 4 (01:00:08):
Can I help?
You know, and I, just we neededhim for that we needed him.

Speaker 1 (01:00:13):
We also need to grow up and become emotionally more
mature ourselves.
From project to project, welearn how to do that, so I love
that focus on like sometimes wejust have to learn to.
Be the one Be the one to keepthat centered.
That's our responsibility, nomatter what an actor or a crew
member does.

Speaker 3 (01:00:30):
So yeah, I mean being a parent helps with that.
Being a parent helps.

Speaker 2 (01:00:34):
I will say, you know, yeah, just learning about
personalities, and, like yousaid, it comes with time and
practice, but it's never easy.
I mean, movies are like themost hectic, crazy.
You know you got money on theline and every minute counts,
and so it's.
It's easy to fall into the trap, but I do think this is why we
take so long in pre-pro.
That's what I always keep goingback to.
It's like the more you've donethat like I'm sure there are

(01:00:54):
things that you could haveavoided and some you can't.
Um on your last films right,and you learn how much oh I, I
thought I needed this much time.
I need more to prep, um so, so,but yeah there'll always be
problems and there'll always bethings falling apart, and so
it's just you gotta be able tokeep your head on, you know,
while you're, while you're doingit, cause I've been in your
shoes, I I've been, uh, like Isaid, in high school, I was like

(01:01:15):
going crazy, I was like yankingout all my hair, I was going so
nuts about not getting theshots I wanted.
And then you have to remember,these are just humans, humans,
human beings who need you tohelp guide them to your vision.
I couldn't understand why can'tthey get my vision?
And I like gotta, you gottaunderstand how to manage all
that.

Speaker 1 (01:01:30):
So it's interesting.
You know, I've heard jamescameron talk about I think it
was james cameron who said thathe was.
He was kind of known for beinga curse and yell person and he
was on set of like a ron howardfilm and was like he engenders
like so much respect from histeam and it's just so decent to

(01:01:50):
everybody and he's like I thinkI want to be more like that,
like it's kind of like that waslike his like I guess his come
to Jesus moment where he wasjust like I could be nice to
people you know like and maybethat'd be good.

Speaker 2 (01:02:03):
And they're both great filmmakers just a
different approach to how theyget what they need.

Speaker 1 (01:02:06):
Well, good and and they're both great filmmakers
just a different approach to howthey get what they need.
Well, you know, it just showsthat, like the yelling and and
the cursing isn't necessary togetting movies, uh, out of the
gate, because if he has changedat all, I've never been on any
of his sets so I can't tell you,but I like to assume that he
has, because reports say thatit's not so bad.
Um, making avatar he's gettingolder.

Speaker 2 (01:02:23):
Now it's hard to be screaming that much at 80 or 70
or whatever.

Speaker 1 (01:02:26):
But you know, you watch, you watch, you watch
those movies and they're stillpretty great.
I actually thought, oh, hemakes amazing movies.
No, he's a genius.

Speaker 2 (01:02:34):
That's part of the issue.
I think you know when you'rethat good, it's hard to remind
you.
Know yourself.
I need to.
I need to help them see whatI'm seeing in my head, and I
think that that was his.
You know what was hard for himas he was younger, right.

Speaker 3 (01:02:50):
I think you know we've been talking about how you
know you need to listen toother people and you really need
to be sensitive to like what'sgoing on in a situation.
I think there's also on theflip side of that there are very
definite times where you haveto step in and be like nope,
this is what's happening.
Everyone, everyone, needs tostop doing this.
We are changing directions andbeing firm with it, like you
don't have to be a jerk about it, but being firm, because if
people don't have leadership,it's all just going to go crazy,

(01:03:17):
and if you've treated peoplewell up to those moments that
are probably more infrequent,they're going to be a lot more
apt to be like all right, let'sgo, let's do this Like changing
direction.
Everyone's going to stop doinganything else that they're doing
and we're going to focus onthis one task right now.

Speaker 2 (01:03:27):
Yeah, if a fire needs to be put out, you've got to
put it out, and otherwise itspreads.

Speaker 3 (01:03:31):
So we had kind of a situation like that where we had
a location that on one of ourlast shoots where I called to
check in and be like hey, we'regoing to be there in about half
an hour.
Like things went a little long.
He's like well, I'm closing theshop in 45 minutes.
I'm like what.
No we had it like for threehours.
We're supposed to be there.
He's like nope, I'm closing inso.

Speaker 2 (01:03:51):
I was like everyone.

Speaker 3 (01:03:53):
I'm like we're leaving everything here, we're
going to come back and clean upafterwards, send a skeleton crew
like just go and do X, y and Zto get this done.
And we did.
We didn't get everything thatwe wanted, but we got what we
needed.
But it's moments like thatwhere you have to have people's
respect and like you have tobuild up the environment well
enough so that people canactually react.

Speaker 2 (01:04:12):
If they like you, you know the crew will jump to it.
If they, if you've created abad atmosphere from the
beginning.
Like I said, the people areyelling at everybody.
They're not going to, they'regoing to drag.
They're not in a hurry to getover there, you know, but
because they respect the way youtreat them, they'll work hard
and they'll actually feel likethey're part of a team trying to
get it done.

Speaker 1 (01:04:27):
So, yeah, I'll always remember Glenn Anderson, my
first supervisor when I wasemployed, back in those days
when he was so decent toeveryone, and I remember one day
he just told us all, like youknow, like having some personal
drama in my life right now, Ijust need everyone to step up

(01:04:48):
and everyone just was like, okay, what do you need?
Like it was just instantaneous,like the whole.
Everyone was like we have allceased side conversations.
We have like everything hasstopped and everything is.
We are completely present now.
And I just remember it was hejust asked, like it was instant,
and we just responded and Iremember thinking how how does

(01:05:09):
one develop, develop such such arespect yeah, like um, from
people?
And I think what you guys aresaying is it well, I mean, if
we're going to be open with ourChristianity, uh, christ, we
love him because he first lovedus, right, like we.
He did it first, you know, andso that's our job as leaders is
like you have to do it first.

(01:05:30):
You have to treat people, evenif they're not super respectful
at first, like you set thatstandard and then and then it
comes back.

Speaker 2 (01:05:37):
So yeah, no, I think you're right.
You make a good point.
I think remembering you knowthat if we're going to be
calling ourselves Christians,and how we act matters and it's
more important than the movieand um, I think you know I I was
almost became a paramedic atone point in my life and we're
not saving lives.
It's not that kind of job, youknow what I mean.
So it is still.
There's a lot of money involved, but it is not saving lives.

(01:05:59):
We're making movies, so there'sno reason to be going
completely crazy.
You know, and and keep, keep itin perspective.
That's what I'd say.

Speaker 1 (01:06:07):
Yeah, well, and that actually just makes the movie
better.
Yeah, Like losing our mindsdoesn't actually make movies
better, even though panic, sothat's great.
Well, that's a good note.
Nathan and Megan, we're justthank you so much, super
grateful for your time, you guys.
I wish we had way more time tokeep going into stuff, because I

(01:06:29):
can tell that you guys aredoing it.
You're making films and you'remaking a life out of that.
We're super excited to continueto investigate your filmography
and stay up to date with it asyou guys continue to do stuff,
because I can just tell thatit's going to be going on the up
and up from here.

Speaker 4 (01:06:48):
What's the best way for our audience to engage with
your work?
Where can we send them in the?
You know the notes.

Speaker 3 (01:06:55):
Yeah, I mean, I think our website usually is where I
tend to, you know, shoo peopleto, because you know you can
subscribe.
You can find all of our socials.
They are, like you know,contact information.

Speaker 2 (01:07:04):
that's it visionary-filmproductionscom um
you can do either, oh, and bothwork okay either way but, yeah,
it's been a pleasure talking toyou guys and, um, you know, it's
really great, great podcast totalk about family and film and
and it reminds people to makesure they prioritize properly.

(01:07:25):
So I think it great that youguys are doing this.
But, yeah, let's definitelystay in touch.
I think it's exciting to seewhat you guys are going to be
doing too, so we should stay intouch.

Speaker 1 (01:07:34):
Yeah, Awesome.
Well, thanks you guys.
We'll have you back on the show, maybe next movie.

Speaker 2 (01:07:39):
So sounds good, we're working on it.