June 23, 2025 • 72 mins
What happens when a decades-long dream project suddenly gains unstoppable momentum? For married filmmakers Lee and Katherine, their baseball-themed feature "Rally Caps" represents both the unpredictable magic and sobering business realities of modern independent filmmaking.
After 15 years of development, what began as a passion project during the pandemic transformed when former MLB player Curtis Pride joined with his children as cast members, Major League Baseball provided support, and stars Judd Hirsch and Amy Smart signed on. As Katherine reveals, "The universe was our executive producer" – whenever the production seemed doomed, last-minute miracles kept it alive.
The duo generously shares hard-earned wisdom that could save fellow filmmakers thousands of dollars and countless headaches. Katherine's marketing background proves crucial, emphasizing that marketing considerations should influence creative decisions from day one. "Put some kind of marketing budget in there," she urges, highlighting the importance of professional photo shoots, behind-the-scenes documentation, and strategic product placement. Their partnership with Phonak, a hearing aid company, exemplifies how sponsorships can organically enhance storytelling while providing crucial financing.
Perhaps their most valuable insight challenges the romantic notion of filmmaking as primarily creative work. "99% of making a film is business and logistics," Lee explains, detailing their harrowing experience navigating SAG requirements that nearly derailed production. They emphasize starting SAG paperwork 6-8 weeks before production and setting aside significant funds for bonds.
For directors seeking representation, Lee offers balanced perspective on working with managers: "It's a partnership... their job is not to go out and get stuff for you." Instead, his manager provides script feedback, creative dialogue, and occasional meeting opportunities – a realistic relationship that contrasts with unrealistic expectations many filmmakers hold.
Whether you're starting your first film or scaling up your productions, this conversation illuminates the path forward in an industry where traditional routes to success have disappeared. Check out "Rally Caps" on Peacock to see the fruits of their labor, and visit http://www.crystalrockentertainment.com to connect with these generous filmmakers who truly understand what it takes to bring an independent vision to life.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
awesome, hey.
Well, welcome lee and katherineto the film and family podcast.
We're so happy to have youthanks for having us.
Thank you yeah, so um, lee andkatherine are, um, a married
filmmaking duo, which soundsobnoxiously cheesy when I say it
like that, but no shame,because that's what we are.
(00:23):
And you guys are in Coloradoand they just released a film
that we became aware of becauseit was showing at the same
festival as us, called RallyCaps, and there's just so much
to dive into about Rally Caps.
But this is not your firstfeature film.
From what I've sleuthed onlineof you guys, this is like your
(00:44):
fourth, fifth.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
So it's my fourth film directing and it's our
second or third film as adirecting producing couple
Correct, kathy.
Speaker 3 (00:58):
Right.
Speaker 2 (00:59):
Okay, I think it's the third.
Yeah, it's hard to keep count,but yes, indeed.
Speaker 3 (01:07):
So it sounds like, catherine, you're the one who
got kind of pulled into this.
Is that right?
Speaker 4 (01:14):
Yes, a little bit, a little bit.
Yes, the first time he talkedto me about the project he had
another book that he wanted toum to adapt.
But I have a marketingbackground and when he brought
me that first book, I'm like Idon't know how to market this.
I mean, I know you love it.
(01:34):
Uh, he was holding likeexciting about it and I'm like I
don't know how to market this,so I would recommend not to
waste time on adapting a bookthat book.
So I would recommend not towaste time on adapting a book
that book.
Then he got this book and thenI said, before I read the book,
pitch it to me, give me anelevator pitch.
And he did.
(01:56):
And actually I said I know howto market this and definitely.
Then he started writing it andI got involved once production
started and and I saw somedifficulties in production that
he was facing because he wasdirector, writer, producer.
So he's like, no, I think thatyou need help.
So that's how.
Speaker 3 (02:15):
I got involved, okay, so was it a book first or was
it just he wrote the screenplay?
It was a book first yeah.
I didn't realize that it's abook yeah, it's a book, it's,
it's.
Speaker 4 (02:25):
It's a little different, I think, and leak,
you can talk about theadaptation of the book.
Um, it's a little different,but um, go ahead yeah, it's
based on a book by uh.
Speaker 2 (02:35):
It's a.
It's a daughter father, uhcombination writing team, steven
cutler and jody mich Cutler,and they wrote the book based on
their.
It's an amalgamation of theirown experiences.
So there's a lot of truestories Jodi's story, stephen's
story, essentially, and thenJodi's son who wears a cochlear
(02:56):
implant.
Lucas's character is based onher son, and so they amalgamated
the the storylines into a bookthat was released, I believe, in
2008.
So it's been out for a bit andStephen reached out to me back
when it was released, because itwas after my first couple of
films had come out throughLionsgate and he found me online
(03:19):
.
He sent me a bunch ofmemorabilia and he'd already
made shirts for the movie and hewas really excited and I
thought at that time I mean, Idefinitely always wanted to make
a baseball movie.
I love the Sandlot, field ofDreams, all of those iconic
films, america's Pastime Sliceof know.
(03:45):
Americana always wanted to sortof live in that space and work
in that space, and this was anopportunity to do that.
But it's also making a baseballmovie with kids.
Is is pretty expensive for aindependent micro budget feature
and that's really the theprojects that I was working on
at the time and so, you know, 10, 15 years past, I had pitched
(04:09):
the project to Disney.
When I worked there, theyactually they liked it.
So they said and but it wasjust, it's just hard to make
those types of movies, thatthose really are budgeted at 15,
20, 25 million dollars and, uh,it's, it's just hard to to
market and profit them in this,you know, in this new landscape
(04:34):
of distribution, and so I triedto to pitch the idea, uh, with
disney and several other youknow platforms, but we just
weren't getting anywhere.
And then, during the time of thepandemic, steven reached out
again.
Um, I call I always call it thequarterly report with him
(04:55):
because he would check in everyfew months.
Uh, he was very, very dedicatedand it was a big dream of his
and it, you know, beginning of2020, we everything shut down.
You guys know it, all theprojects that I was developing
with my manager, um, just justeverything shut down.
(05:17):
So it was an opportunity for meto work on something that I
wanted to do, and that's when II just thought I was going to
adapt the screenplay and thenthe screenplay would just sort
of sit in a drawer, so to speak,the digital, digital drawer of
my or digital folder of mylaptop, yeah, and.
But it was finally a projectwhere I could, you know, just
(05:38):
have some fun and and and workon a Sandlot-type kids' baseball
movie and see where it goesfrom there.
And, long story short, itstarted to pick up some traction
after the first couple ofdrafts.
People liked it.
My manager said it was one ofthe best things he's seen from
(06:00):
me.
This was all surprising.
And then, little by little, wegained traction.
We were going to just make itas a very small micro budget
project and then we gotinvestors and resources.
Curtis pride came on who's inthe movie, his kids are in the
movie playing lucas and nikkithose are his children and he
(06:22):
got major league baseball, uh,involved.
And suddenly just the, the, youknow the the status raised.
That really raised the bar.
And then we got additionalinvestors.
And then then here we are.
Speaker 4 (06:38):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (06:39):
That's awesome.
I really like this idea of likethe project kind of carrying
itself away, almost like becausethat was our last film, I feel
like our first film, we reallyfelt like a little more like we
were digging in the dirt withour fingernails.
Speaker 4 (06:54):
You know.
Speaker 1 (06:55):
And then the second one.
It was like we had like twokind of developing at the same
time One just kind of droppeddead, and then the other one
just kind of opened up and itjust and it just wouldn't stop.
It just, and it hasn't stopped,it just keeps going without us
and we're like, oh, this is niceof you to bring us along, you
know, but it doesn't really feellike this force of will, and so
that's kind of what you'resaying.
(07:16):
You're like, oh wow, the scriptwas received well, and then
people are coming on board andit's at least and it doesn't
feel like that every day, I'msure but like, but there's to
feel that wind in the sailssometimes.
Speaker 2 (07:26):
So well articulated and me and Kathy are both or
Kathy and I are both spiritualpeople and we do believe in the
laws of the universe, andespecially as it pertains to
this industry.
It feels like you can beworking on something and
dedicate all your time to it andfeel like this is the project
(07:47):
that's going to pick up and go,and it doesn't happen.
And so often, as filmmakers,we're spending so much of our
time and resources to getsomething off the ground and it
can be years and years and youknow, it's sort of a house of
cards and it just like, I feel,like other businesses.
You can work on something andit's more cards and it just like
I feel like other businesses.
You, you, you can work onsomething and it's more tangible
, and it might not succeed, butyou, you have something to show
(08:12):
for it.
But you can develop a project inthis industry for years and
just nothing like, just it justdissipates, and so that's years
of your life, um, and thensomething like you know, rally
caps, which is ironic to saybecause you know it was 15 years
in the.
Something like you know rallycaps, which is ironic to say
because you know it was 15 yearsin the making, you know,
especially with the writers whenthey reached out to me.
But honestly, when it cametogether, it came together very
(08:34):
fast and it was the pretty muchthe last project that I thought
was it that was going to happento, especially during the
pandemic when everyone wasmaking films about two people in
a cabin, like that's what youwere supposed to do giant camp.
It's full of like a covidcentral, like it's like yes you
know, 16 kids, their parents, acamp, like it's the last, like
(08:58):
kind of the last thing to do isa micro budget film at that
point, and of course that's theone that happens.
But, um, to your point, yeah,you, just you have to, you know,
ride the river downstreamsometimes and when it's meant to
be, it's meant to be and we, wefully believe in that,
especially because of all of thecheckpoints along the way, and
(09:21):
I'm not sure if we have the timeto get into all of it, but it
just really really crazy.
Things had to happen, smallmiracles, maybe even big
miracles.
You know, kathy, that we thathappened to keep this project
going because there was manypoints along the line that it
was about to shut down.
And it just something at thelast minute, bottom of the ninth
(09:43):
, as we joke like somethingwould happen and it would stay
alive.
Speaker 4 (09:48):
And so I always say to him I was like we have the
executive producer, was theuniverse, that's it.
I mean, there was alwayssomething that when he was ready
to like, ok, this is it,something happened.
Ok, we keep moving, but it waslike that at the end Something
happened and he's like, okay, wekeep moving, but it was like
that at the end, like I feelthat this last six months of the
movie I was already trustingthe universe so much that it's
(10:11):
like you know what Everything isgoing to work out.
I don't know how, but it will,because it was so many things
that happened through the moviethat it's like, okay, I'm going
to trust this, I'm going to domy job, and that's as much as I
can control.
Once you leave, let go.
Speaker 3 (10:28):
The control, I think, is when things start going to
happen, yeah, yeah, I think youhave to kind of let go of the
result, and just that's how it'sbeen for us too, where we just
have to have lots of irons inthe fire and we don't really
know what's going to happen when, um, the thing we're developing
next is one we wrote seven oreight years ago, and it it's
just like maybe now is the timeyou know, and you never really
know until it's it starts tocome together and it's weird
(10:50):
that it just it will stall aslong as it needs to, and then
all of a sudden, you're like Ineed, I need I need something
right now.
Speaker 1 (10:55):
And then something breaks and it's always, like you
guys said, one of our nights.
I so relate to that.
I really appreciate thatperspective.
It makes me feel less crazy.
Speaker 3 (11:05):
So can we rewind a little?
I just want to because you havea history of doing this for a
while kind of take us back tothe beginning of your career.
You said you worked at Disney,but now you're doing independent
film.
How did you get into this?
Is this what you guys are doing, full time to support your
family?
What did that look like for you?
Speaker 2 (11:28):
Yeah, in a nutshell, like I think it was David
Mammoth who said that every timehe approaches a screenplay it's
a completely different process,despite him being a master at
it at this point, rightConsidered a master at it at
(11:49):
this point, right Considered amaster.
And so it's so hard to, I guess, combine the entire experience
because, as you guys know, everytime you make a movie it's a
different process.
But I think what really got meinto it was just the power of
the medium.
The first time that I was ableto make a short film in high
school and it was just mybuddies and a couple of
classmates and, like the teachershut off the room, we showed it
(12:10):
in class and people weretouched by it, you know, and
laughed and you know and allthat.
So it's, it's a really powerfulmedium to get messages out, and
I think that also there's, ofcourse, the allure and as a
younger filmmaker, like you know, you love the awards and the
red carpet and everything andthat's exciting too, right,
(12:43):
toets?
And all that kind of stuffdoesn't hold a torch to the
power of being able tocontribute to society with
things that can really touchpeople and move people and move
audiences, and so that's why Iknow that I stuck with it and
all that other stuff is.
Can I curse?
Is that okay?
It's just PC.
Speaker 3 (13:03):
We won't stop it or edit it, it's okay.
Speaker 2 (13:06):
I'll clean it up for you guys, but it's BS.
Speaker 3 (13:10):
If people have their kids around, I guess yeah.
Speaker 2 (13:12):
So I'll just say it's BS.
All of this other.
You know you should feel proudof your work and you should feel
proud of awards and all of thatstuff.
But if you go into it like aself-fulfilling prophecy or you
know a rites of passage foryourself, I just don't think
(13:33):
you're going to get to the placeyou want to be At least that's
been the journey for me is thepower to get people to watch
something and learn somethingabout themselves or connect
something about it, because it,you know it does have the power
to save lives, and so that'swhat drives me I, I really
(13:57):
appreciate that perspectivebecause, um, you know, we're on
movie number two.
Speaker 1 (14:02):
Movie number one didn't didn't do a ton of awards
, in terms of that, you know,but it was really exciting to
watch it with people.
It was nerve-wracking too.
But movie number two it waslike just this blessing of like
working super hard on it andthere was, like you know,
saturday morning it showed andthen Saturday night it won a lot
of awards.
(14:22):
It did pretty well with youguys as well.
You guys did really well atZiff.
But, yeah, like the awards arestrange and conflicting and you
have these things that happen inyour head where you're like,
well, these are just like thatperson's opinion versus that
person's opinion and it's weirdwhat it does to you actually and
then like, but sitting in thatroom, like experiencing a story
that you've really put together,like to your point, with that
(14:43):
audience I remember StevenSpielberg talking about
recreating that and the fablemen's, like his early
experiences, like showing shortfilms in high school, basically,
and how he's hooked on thatfeeling, that feeling of showing
it to an audience and feelingthis feeling of like I can, I
can like create this, thismassive collective experience of
like fear or laughter or tearsor whatever, or inspiration and
(15:08):
like it's, like that's, that's,I'm not sure what it is that
makes that so amazing.
But we've often said that a filmis a medium of best suited for
connection, not conversion.
Like I really I don't know, Ijust I resonate a lot with that
perspective.
So I appreciate that.
How do you feel like your earlyfilms and early career really
(15:30):
prepared the way for this film?
Because you were saying thatthe book, the author, he like,
reached out to you so he wasfamiliar with your work and and
that's kind of what we're allabout is trying to get people
like some momentum, like getthat first film made so you can
create momentum enough to have acareer.
But most people just sit around, they don't make anything.
Speaker 3 (15:52):
Well, and I think a lot of people feel like maybe
their first film they try tomake too big of a leap.
You know, it's like we've gotto make a million dollar film,
we've got to have name talent,we've got to do all these things
, and so we really try toencourage our audience to start
small.
You know, and typically what weteach is sort of getting
(16:12):
financing in whatever way youcan keep your day job, like
doing this, on the side untilyou can build it up Logistically
.
Was that kind of how your firstfilm looked, you know, or was
it independent from the verybeginning for you?
Speaker 2 (16:44):
no-transcript.
They naturally started small,and why we're I feel like we're
such a good uh, um, acollaboration of minds is that
we're both creative, um and butKathy's very organized with um,
(17:12):
you know, being able to lead oneside of the production and I
can lead the other side.
So it was always helpful in themicro budget space to have a
partner who could, you know,understand how the logistics of
it and I can go be a little bitmore creative.
So naturally, we did start fromvery small projects and I think
(17:32):
that is naturally good advicefor filmmakers that are starting
.
But I also would just say thatit really depends on the
situation.
Right, there's people who gettheir starts with selling a
great script.
They might have some fantasyhuge idea that they can.
It's free to write a script.
(17:53):
Right, it's not free in termsof time and effort and sweat and
blood and sweat and tears, butit's free.
You don't have to invest yourown money into it.
So if you write a really greatscript and go that way, that's
your path and you can get itmade.
But if you're looking to reallyget something off the ground, if
you don't have that big idea,if you don't have that big
script that's selling and you'retrying to make it on your own.
(18:15):
Yes, small and concentrated,but I would just also really
push the idea that what inspiresyou needs to be personal and so
whatever that takes right.
So just going out and sayingI'm going to make a film for I
don't know $5,000 because I can,you know, great, have at it.
(18:40):
But I think, circling back toour earlier point, where, if
it's really coming from withinand you have something to say,
whatever it takes to make thatthe right way, that's what you
got to go for.
And if it happens to be a smallbudget, great.
Speaker 4 (18:56):
But um, I would like to add something to go for me uh
, from a producer's perspectivebecause, uh, for example, my
background I started this careeras a line producer.
I started like, fromcoordinating to all the way to
line producer to UPM and one ofthe things is that when we moved
(19:17):
to LA, I ended up in marketing.
For some reason, life took meto marketing and I started
working in big studios inmarketing, in creative marketing
, in marketing, in creativemarketing.
And when I started learningabout marketing, I said anybody
should study marketing if youwant to be a producer.
(19:38):
I totally agree, and I thinkRiley Capps is a very good
example.
You can market a movie withheart.
If you really feel that themovie has a heart, that is a
passion of yours and all thatstuff perfect.
But at the same time let's berealistic it's a business.
If you want to stay in thisbusiness, you have to sell the
(19:58):
movie.
You have to know your audience,you have to know where the
market.
The cool thing that ishappening right now is that
there's so many genres and somany like you know that you can
concentrate on many things, thatthere's so many genres and so
many like you know that, uh, youcan concentrate on many things
and there's always going to be aa an audience for your movie,
but uh, but one of the biggestthings that I always say to
(20:21):
people is, like, before youreally go to the next project,
really think about marketing.
Think about who is my audience,who I can sell.
Honestly, if there's big actorsor not, that's not the thing.
Once you know that there's anaudience out there, okay, start
managing the story based on theaudience that you know and then
(20:44):
just put your heart in it.
But don't disregard that aspectof marketing.
But don't disregard that aspectof marketing.
And I think that's why it'slike every project that we have
done.
From the beginning I've beenalways picky with Lee of like,
how can I market this?
Who would watch this?
Because just making movies foryourself or your family, if you
want to stay in this business,that would be hard right.
(21:04):
So that aspect I wouldencourage every producer to
learn about marketing.
And it's not even aboutdistribution, it's more about
marketing how can you make yourmovie and put it out there?
That is with a great story, ofcourse.
Speaker 3 (21:21):
Yeah, yeah.
We're in the thick of that Ithink that's something we've
been learning is likedistributors, for the most part,
are going to put your movieplaces, but they're not going to
get people in the theater seatsor to go watch it on the
platform.
So marketing has to be donesomewhere, whether you're
working with a team or doing ityourself, like we do on indie
projects a lot.
Speaker 2 (21:42):
Yes, such a great point.
And distribution.
I think a lot of new filmmakerscome into it with the idea that
a distributor picks up theirfilm and that's it.
They're going to take it,they're going to put it out in,
you know, in the trades,everywhere they're going to.
You know, put out this amazingtrailer and they're going to
work 24 seven to just likepromote your film.
(22:05):
And, yeah, unless you're Marvel,like a Marvel movie, that sort
of effort's not going to happen.
It's impossible for them.
They don't have the bandwidth.
In fact it's pretty much and Ihate and I don't want to reduce
it to this.
But specifically on our levelof film, which you know, I'm
talking about independent filmsmade for under 5 million, let's
(22:27):
just put it in that category.
Made for under $5 million,let's just put it in that
category.
You're really going to get adistributor that has a Rolodex,
an index of a bunch of moviesthat they're taking out to all
the film markets and they've gotto come with volume and they're
not going to prioritize yourfilm.
Even if your film is thebiggest one with stars in it,
(22:51):
it's not going to get that sortof attention.
And even if you are prioritized, it's still not going to be the
attention that you know youwant.
So to Kathy's point and yourpoint, anna, like it's so
important that come in with you,know, with your own strategy,
with your own sense of marketing.
Know with your own strategy,with your own sense of marketing
(23:14):
.
And yes, we we rally caps hadthe advantage of kathy being in
the marketing world, havingworked for the studios and
everything, um, but coming inwith those pieces in place and a
game plan to bring to thedistributor and really be
extremely active, not dominatingand not having delusional
(23:35):
expectations, but coming to themwith ideas like so we brought,
you know, we brought resourcesto them when we, uh, when we got
our distribution deal, we camewith ideas, um, and we weren't
relying on them to to hit agrand slam or pull miracles out
(23:56):
of their pants, like that'sreally the mindset you should.
It's you make the film and youfinish it, don't just hand it
off to the distributor.
Distribution is probably whereyou should put most of your
resources and energy on thislevel and I know that's crazy to
say, because everyone you knowwho makes a film on this level
(24:18):
feels like they've sacrificedtheir entire life and their,
their, their, their wellbeing toget it made.
But really, distribution is soimportant, especially now,
because it's a game aboutgetting attention.
It's not anyone in the worldcan click one of our films and
watch it in a matter of seconds,like it's accessible to
(24:40):
everyone on Earth in a matter ofseconds.
It's about attention, and sothat's the big game.
That's the name of the game now.
Speaker 4 (24:49):
And I will recommend to any budget like, even if you
have a thousand dollars budget,just put a hundred bucks or any
kind of budget into marketing.
That has to be in your budgetand be smart about it on how to,
how to do it.
And there's a lot of cheapresources nowadays that you can
(25:09):
literally put ads out there inGoogle ads and social media.
Create the land, the landingpages and all that stuff to like
really really promote yourmovie.
You know, highly recommendeverybody to have behind the
scenes.
Behind the scenes is going tobe your major, major thing in
marketing because he's likeyou're going to have what is
(25:31):
happening, documenting thebehind the scenes.
Uh, amazing pictures when youare doing your movie.
Uh, have a photo shoot likebelieve it or not.
It's like sometimes peoplebelieve don't think about those
things.
Oh, I'm gonna take it from themovie.
No, no, no just one sheetanything to help you market the
(25:51):
movie um at the end.
So just just think about thatthat's a.
Speaker 2 (25:56):
One of the big tips we learned on this one was you
know, a lot of people don't takestills on set of their actors
and they, when they get todistribution, they don't have a
really refined looking posterbecause they don't have really
good images of their actors.
So they have to, you know,create one from scratch or they
have to do a reshoot and theactors are all older.
(26:17):
So, yeah, when you're on set,take your actors off to the side
and get stills for formarketing, and and think about
your one sheet, because that'swhat you're, and and think about
your one sheet, because that'swhat you're.
That's the first thing a lot ofthese distributors are seeing.
Is that poster before yourtrailer, before anything else?
So you've got to think about allthese things and you know not
(26:40):
to feel like I'm talking out ofboth sides of my mouth, because
earlier I was giving you knowthe advice to make a film from
your heart, and you should.
But once you got that story inplace, to Kathy's point, you've
got to start knocking down thestrategy of marketing and where
(27:01):
it's going to find its audience.
And you know, if you have aChristmas movie, then you know
what the audience is and youknow who you can approach and
you know who you can approachand you can.
You know how you can tweak thescript to sort of fit certain
platforms that put out Christmasmovies.
Because you want to put out,you might want to make the next,
(27:23):
the newest, freshest Christmasmovie idea that hasn't been done
before and it's going to be thecitizen Kane of Christmas
movies.
Speaker 4 (27:30):
That's all great, but you should have at least an
idea on a high platform thatyou're going to approach and and
again, yeah, if, for example,in this movie, lee wrote the
movie and when he gave it to me,I gave him not a creative, I
gave him marketing notes.
I said you would market itwould be marketing if you can
just tweak this.
And he was little tweaks, he.
(27:51):
I'm not one of the things, I'mnot sacrificing his story, I
just know that if you put someelements, hey, I know this.
The other thing is that peopledon't realize is product
placement is like okay, well, ifyou make this and make this
tweak, like okay, well, if youmake this and make this tweak, I
(28:13):
can go and ask somebody tosponsor it, our movie, and voila
, you get money or you get somekind of free stuff.
So those kind of thinking.
So you can write your movie andthe movie that you want to make
, but then go and talk tosomebody that has a marketing
experience, say, hey, how can wetweak and make this more
markable?
Speaker 2 (28:28):
yes, yeah, look, yeah , sorry, go ahead.
No, I've been talking a lot, soyou, you go for it fine.
Speaker 1 (28:35):
No, I love what you guys are both saying.
The bts marketing in theproduction budget and the stills
on set, um are all things thatI've recently heard from
distributors about, so I willjust add my testimony to what
you guys are saying and so thatit's something people ask about
and it is, it's valuable.
And then the other thing youwere saying was about
(28:58):
sponsorship.
I do want to ask about thatbecause as you evolve, you know,
from asking your uncle for$10,000 to make your first, you
know out of pocket movie tohaving larger budgets, something
we've started to learn is youhave to piecemeal those budgets
to reduce the equity financeportion of that budget as much
as possible, because equity isthe most expensive money you can
(29:20):
get.
And so you're mentioning thingslike product placement or even
just sponsorship.
You mentioned the mlb earlier.
This seems like a good seguefor me to just ask what did that
look like on this film?
How do you pursue thoserelationships?
Because I've recently read anarticle from a guy who works on
the brand side of like fundingcreative projects and he was
very like this is how I wouldapproach a brand, but don't do
(29:43):
it because it's rude and likebasically give up now.
Speaker 3 (29:55):
Like he give up now, like he was very pessimistic in
his article, even though it washad valuable information.
His his perspective was thebrand approaches the filmmaker,
not the other way around.
We actually have been trying tofigure out how to do
sponsorship and productplacement relationships
unsuccessfully, so I'd love tolearn how did that evolve for
you guys?
Speaker 2 (30:03):
on this one, so the, so sorry.
I the the brand approaches thefilm and not the other way
around.
Well, if that was, if that'sthe case, then we would have
never gotten any sponsors forour movie.
Uh, no, don't believe in that.
I don't think you do either.
Uh, yes, you definitely,especially because the movie
can't be made without thesponsorship.
You know that's part of thebudget, so like you're coming to
(30:25):
them to come on board.
Um, I have a lot to say in thisspace.
Kathy Knott knows a lot moreabout this, so I'm going to pass
this off to her in a second.
I'll just say for filmmakers, Ithink a lot of times they can
be a little precious and withtheir story and they're like,
well, it's a distraction.
(30:46):
It's like you know a characteris talking and also they drink a
Coca-Cola and my argument.
And you go and watch Netflixmovies right now.
You see it there.
They're all over in your face.
But you know what.
You forget about it in a coupleof seconds.
But you know not in terms oflike the sponsor.
They get there, you know liketheir audience might go grab a
(31:06):
Coke and that's what they wantand that's all they need.
But in terms of your story,people are not going to think
about the Coca-Cola within yourstory after a couple seconds,
let them be annoyed.
You move on and you get yourfilm made and, but you know,
find a way to get it into yourstory, your script, without it
compromising, but approachingsponsors and all of that stuff.
(31:27):
That's definitely got to bedone.
Really, at the script stage youstart having those
conversations.
It's really great.
In our case, one of our biggestsponsors was Phonak.
They're a hearing aid company.
Obviously, one of ourcharacters has a cochlear
implant, recent surgery, and soit was a really good fit because
(31:53):
it fit with the integrity ofthe story and that character is
a very strong character and soyou want to look for a really
good combination and not as muchrandom stuff.
Speaker 1 (32:05):
But let me just ask was that product placement, the
shot right before the swim testwhen he puts it, that's that
product placement, the shotright before the?
Speaker 4 (32:10):
swim test.
Speaker 1 (32:11):
There you go.
That's the product placement,zero distraction.
I just thought it was reallyinteresting because I thought
that's a nice detail that we seethe kid take it out and put it.
It just felt like the worldbuilding of one kid's got
anxiety.
This other kid's dealing withthis part of his life where he
he has to put these things inand out, and it helps, I think
(32:32):
children watching a movie kindof that adds to the value of the
film, in my opinion, because ithelps these children realize
like this kid can't swim withthese in.
There are people like this inthe world.
So when you meet one it's like,oh yeah, I kind of know about
that and it's not this weird,like I'm going to treat him
weirdly.
You know, I don't know, for meit was nice, so I never for once
was like, oh, what the like?
Speaker 2 (32:53):
you know hey buy this thing you know well that's a
perfect example of and thank youfor noticing that.
I think it you, you can weaveit into your store if you work
with the brand and they, ifyou're, on, aligned with the
integrity of what the story is,then you can, you can weave it
(33:14):
seamlessly in.
Um, it's not gonna always bethe case, but in that case of
you know, in in our situation,it was a perfect fit and, um, it
could, you could serve eachother.
But it also is about workingwith the brand and being
open-minded, right, right, like.
So.
That scene was not necessarilywritten with an emphasis on
(33:36):
seeing what he was wearing, butwe did want the audience to know
that he needed a differentdevice and a protection for the
hearing aid to swim, and that isimportant to his character
building.
Uh, and so we worked with thebrand to figure out a way that
works for both sides.
(33:57):
Um, but yeah, kathy, I don'tknow if you uh had anything to
add in terms of the businessside of it, but yeah, this is
this is a very extensive uhtopic actually mean we can do
just one podcast about marketingand sponsors.
Speaker 4 (34:13):
But I feel that this is the way to make independent
filmmaking.
But it's how you approach thebrands.
Like, there's two differentpaths.
One yes, you have to haveconnections.
You have to have people thatare sellers.
There's agencies there outthere that specialize in product
placement.
Basically, they are the onesthat work with brands.
(34:35):
They're agencies by themselves.
They work with brands andbasically the brand sometimes
says, hey, you know what I need?
I don't know, I need a moviewhere I can put my Toyota in
there, and then the agenciesstart looking for those kinds of
projects.
So, having those connections inthe agencies, with the agencies
(34:55):
, it would be.
It's amazing With sales people.
Sales people are the ones thatare always looking for projects
or something that will help youto like hey, let me take this
project and put it and take itto a brand.
There's many different things ofwhy they want to sponsor your
movie.
Number one we had Amy Smart andJudd Hurch, so that helped
(35:17):
because they give the okay, thisis legit, they have a budget.
Also, it depends on thesponsorship.
It's like okay, are you sellingthis per line.
Like, how many lines do youhave?
Do you create packages ofselling packages, like one
package is like if your productwill be on here, it would be
(35:39):
this much If you have lines plusproduct, is this much?
So you start creating marketingpackages, basically sponsorship
packages.
The biggest sponsor we had wasFonec, but we had other sponsors
where we're like just adding toa film, like, for example, it's
like Hot Dog Stand, it's like,okay, we had this big brand.
(36:01):
They knew that the movie waslegit because we had two big
actors, so they won the productthere.
But they didn't give us anykind of money.
They were just productplacement there.
But doesn't matter, becausethat give that raises the
product, um, the project, alittle bit more than just having
a hot uh, yeah, a hot, uh, hotdog stand.
(36:24):
A simple hot dog stand, yeah,then a really good brand,
exactly.
So that that makes a bigdifference.
What I would say for juststarting projects do the simple
things in your budget.
You're going to have catering.
You're going to have expensesin food.
You're going to have expensesin makeup.
(36:44):
You're going to have expenses,all that.
You can approach people thatliterally for restaurants.
You can approach restaurantsfor them to sponsor your food
every single day and all theywant probably would be just a
shot of the outside of therestaurant or just simple a
(37:06):
credit, or just when the posteris out there to put a sponsor by
and they have look for makeuppeople that wants to like I
don't know salons that wants topromote themselves.
It's free marketing for themand you can actually like
literally have a big audience.
So when you approach these kindof things, you can start
(37:28):
lowering your budget a lot.
That's a great point you don'thave to just think about getting
money back, like, oh, I'm goingto sell this package, I'm going
to get money so I can do this.
No, no, no, what in your budget?
You can start reducing thebudget and approach those people
that is like, oh, you know what?
They probably I don't knowwhoever makes cupcakes can.
(37:49):
Actually, I have cupcakes in myfilm, you know, it's like that
person would love it and a shotof the cupcakes and the picture
of their brand, that's it whatthey want.
So be creative in that aspect.
But I feel that this is thebest way to do it for
independent filmmaking, becausewe don't have to return the
money to do it for independentfilmmaking, because we don't
(38:10):
have to return the money.
Speaker 1 (38:10):
You guys didn't use a local salon to do the uh, the
broken nose makeup because thatwas really good.
Actually I was.
It was almost too good.
I was like, ah, this is likegraphic, man, this kid's nose
situation actually we hiredsomebody from vegas oh that was,
but that one actually was aconnection.
So they did a good job yeah.
Speaker 2 (38:29):
Yeah, especially, yeah, like she came in and
literally just did that for oneday, but yeah, it was obviously
worth the resources to like pulloff, like how realistic it is.
But going back a second.
So this is a conversation Kathyand I have had for our next
film, no-transcript.
(39:09):
But the money that you don'thave to make back is is is
really helpful, it, it umcertainly helps going to into
into distribution if you're onlynow only looking to get singles
and doubles out of it and nottrying to get a grand slam
because you think you have tomake all this money back um.
So I I think what I'm trying tosay is that, like this could be
(39:30):
, we're looking at it as that'sthe future of micro budget
filmmaking is trying to get itfully sponsored.
The riches are in the niches.
Try to, even if a brand it likefunds your entire movie and
let's say, like you know, Idon't know it's a construction
company, you can make yourentire movie around that
(39:51):
construction company.
The main character has that.
You know, like their job is,you know they're a construction
worker, an architect orsomething like that, and the
brand finances the whole movie.
Right, if you're making areally small, you know, that's
what we would try to propose andnot raise private equity, which
we did both of.
(40:12):
We've had private equity andsponsorship big chunks, but it
still is going to be a mountainto climb and we have stars and
all of these things that we didright.
And I'm not saying our movie isperfect by any means.
It is what it is.
It's got flaws.
But the actual making of it wefeel like we checked a lot of
(40:33):
boxes.
There was a ton of set, sweatequity, the movie production
value most people believe ismaybe two, three times the
amount that we actually spent.
But that was on the backs of somuch effort put on by main
people that took back end.
So we did all the things rightand we're still looking at a
(40:54):
really big uphill battle just tomake our money back.
So that's just the reality ofit.
So yeah, it's not just aboutconsolidizing the budget, it's
about if you can get sponsorshipand not have to make the money
back, that's great.
If you can get sponsorship andnot have to make the money back,
that's great.
(41:14):
And one last real quick point isI think even if you're making a
movie for $1,000 or $5,000, Ithink a lot of people go into it
and they're just like.
They just start and they juststart putting money into it and
they figure it out and at theend of the day, they spent they
think they spent more than theywanted to, or they didn't spend
money in the right areas andthey run out of money.
(41:35):
Do a budget.
Do you know consult with a lineproducer, who who is, or if you
have experience with budgets?
It's such an important thingLike get a program you can get
free trials.
Important thing Like get aprogram you can get free trials.
Look at the line items and lookat the reality of it.
(41:55):
Like if you have all of yourfriends working for you and all
the actors are putting it on theback end and they're not,
that's all great, you're savingmoney, but you want to feed your
crew and cast right.
Like you know finding a way toget decent food, whether by
sponsorship or whatever.
Like you know other otherequipment, do you really need
(42:15):
certain things or can you shootit a different way where you
don't need that?
I don't know.
Like that Fisher dolly that'sjust going to be sitting there
after the one you know fiveminutes that you used for that
one shot and then it's sittingthere, like that's happened to
me, like my DP wanted a Fisherdolly for this great dolly shot,
and if that shot looks great itdoes, it's a great piece of
(42:38):
equipment.
But then it sat there for therest of the day because we had
to make our day.
We didn't have time to to to,you know, develop shot design
for these, you know.
You know develop shot designfor these, you know, for the
Fisher Dolly, and so, yeah, it'sthose kinds of things like
really budgeted out, and so youcan see it from a bird's eye
(42:59):
view where you're going to spendyour money.
Because even at a low level, Isee people wasting so much money
on nonsense and none of it goeson screen.
Speaker 4 (43:08):
One thing that I wanted to add.
There is the contingency.
No, nobody.
What is contingency?
Contingency is the money thatyou just save in case of
something happens, and peoplenever think about this and then
at the end, and then you do allyour budget and all that stuff
and then you're like, oh, I runout of money, like no, no, no.
One of the things I'm going totell you is that put some kind
(43:31):
of money out there.
And my second advice please,please, please, try to find a
lawyer.
Don't try to do a contract withAI.
It's insane what happens yourbest friend like is like from my
whole career, that is what.
I'm already an expert readingcontracts because I had to learn
(43:53):
so much of like, um, just anadvice, or even just see a
sponsor of a lawyer.
They can't do that.
You know like, hey, can youlook at this, can you sponsor my
movie and can you help me?
And the contracts are feelingindependent.
Independence is not that big,but I will always advise
contingency on a budget,marketing budget, and then
(44:15):
something that is legal aspects,because when you go into
distribution, you're going tohave a lot of legal aspects and
there's things that you were notcounting on and that you need
somebody outside of you to seeif this is convenient for you or
not.
Speaker 1 (44:32):
That's really great advice.
We actually are, um have yet torelease an already recorded
podcast episode with PeterSalsich, who's a entertainment
lawyer, who who goes intoworking that into your budget,
kind of stuff.
So check that episode out, if,if that's of interest, which it
should be, to Catherine's point.
So I appreciate you mentioningsome of those things that are.
We all know people look overthem, because at least Anne and
(44:55):
I have done that looking overGuilty.
You guys.
This is so awesome.
I have a couple other thingsbefore we wrap up.
I wanted to ask.
You mentioned at the beginningabout having a manager, so talk
to me about um.
Managers aren't agentsnecessarily, but do you have an
agent?
Do you have a manager?
Speaker 3 (45:15):
Is this for writing or directing?
Speaker 1 (45:17):
Writing, directing, and has that been valuable for
you in your career?
Or do you feel like, I don'tknow, like for someone just
starting, versus someone kind ofin it a little bit?
Speaker 3 (45:25):
At what point do you need a manager?
Do you need a manager?
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (45:29):
Yeah, great question.
So I have a manager for writingand directing really all things
, but those are the twopositions that he's focused on
hustling to get work for me.
His name's James Smith fromAaron Kogan management, and I
will start with saying thatagain.
(45:52):
It's another situation where Ithink people get into and
they're like, oh, I have amanager, he's going to go get me
on an episode of, I don't know,stranger Things or something
like that, right, I don't knowwhy that's the next thing.
I'm just trying to think of thebiggest thing in Hollywood,
right Like that's where people'sminds are at Like oh, I can
(46:15):
direct an episode of thatbecause, you know, I don't know,
I love the Goonies, so I can dothat.
Speaker 1 (46:20):
That's the perfect fit.
Yeah, Right.
Speaker 2 (46:22):
So I'm entitled to that.
No, no, no, no and so, but justthe idea that, like they're
going to run around and hustleand they and and they do, but
the reality of trying to get youon a project or get you work,
um, it's the same thing likewith a distributor, it's it's a
partnership at the beginning.
Now, once you, you hit it big,it's a different story.
(46:45):
Right then you're kind of likefielding.
You might be fielding offers atthat point, but we're talking
that's like less than onepercent of what people are
dealing with.
Like you're going to be more inthat middle range where you
have some stuff to show, butyou're working with them to try
to find some sort of brandingfor yourself.
If you will, my right at thispoint, my biggest relationship
(47:09):
with him is us just dissectingscripts, reading scripts, you
know, starting a dialogue onideas, and it's a support system
too.
Like you know, it's I.
I find the script that I like,that someone else wrote, or I
have an idea, I can bounce itoff of him.
He's very personable that wayand that's that's where the
(47:33):
value is, is having anotherpartner that's helping you, but
you got to help him to help you,so or help her to help you, and
so that's you know.
Go into it with the rightmindset that you're building
something together and then it'sgoing to take off.
When it takes off, but they'renot.
(47:56):
Their job is not to go out andget stuff for you, because it's
just not realistic.
The best they can do isprobably get you some meetings
and but you got to build yourown career and they're there to
assist you.
Speaker 3 (48:08):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (48:09):
Yeah, I love that.
I think that, as we've beengoing down this road, that's
something I've been feelingwhich is just this like
sometimes I get this alonefeeling, even though we do this
together, even for two people.
Film is a big machine.
It's big, and sometimes youjust need to bring partners on
board, and sometimes we're.
(48:29):
It's a balance between being um, independent and thrifty and
wise, but then, on the flip side, being um, between being
independent and thrifty and wisebut then on the flip side,
being sort of abundantly mindedand collaborative and trusting,
bringing people into that circle, because when you find the
right people, they can add somuch value.
(48:50):
So I love that you're sayinglike look, this is just someone,
so that you're not doing thisalone all the time, like you
have someone to talk to aboutscripts or you might have
someone to help you managemeetings.
That alone is what that wouldbe very valuable.
So I can, I can see that value.
I appreciate that perspective.
Speaker 3 (49:07):
Financially, is it like a, like an agent, where
they take a percentage, or is itsomething that you pay him to
help you?
A?
Speaker 2 (49:14):
certain amount.
Yeah, depends on whateversituation that you work out with
your uh, you know, with yourrep, but, like with us, it's, it
is a percentage, but it'sessentially if he lands a
project, yeah, or you know, butit's, it's, it's up for debate
because he helped out withgetting us resources for rally
(49:38):
caps and so it's sort of thisunofficial hey, if we do well
with rally caps, we'll take careof you, that kind of thing.
But for the most part he'scontracted to get percentages of
work that he finds for me.
But it's loose, you know, it's,it's it, it.
It really depends on thesituation and there's a matter
(49:59):
of trust between us that, um,you know that, that, that we
know that doesn't have to belike written in the law, um, but
but yeah, man, film is theprobably the most, probably the
most collaborative art form,right, like events, that those
(50:21):
kind of things, like it takes avillage, and so if you, you have
to really bring in people intothe fold, that you trust.
I know we're also running outof time too and I was hoping
that we touch on a little bit on, um, uh, great questions, by
the way.
But yeah, kathy, and Idefinitely would love to talk to
(50:43):
them about SAG, if, if, there'stime if there's time after your
question.
that's a big one.
I'm just thinking about likethe biggest pitfall that we ran
into with this project.
Um, uh, and I don't I don'tknow if we want to jump into it
now or so I know that maybe alot of your audience is doing
(51:07):
micro project, micro, microbudget projects, but attaching a
star or attaching a star name,even for these small projects,
now you might get, uh, you know,a famous person to read your
script and be in it and that'stremendous.
And that's basically whathappened to us.
Like I had a producer friend,she, that I brought the script
(51:29):
to and she had for the mom andpop roles.
She was like, oh, I know thesepeople, I'm going to bring it to
them, mom and pop roles.
She was like, oh, I know thesepeople, I'm going to bring it to
them.
It didn't ultimately work out,but she came back to me and she
said make a wish list.
I went to IMDB.
The top of the list was JuddHirsch and Amy Smart.
This was also I know that we'renot getting A-lister, a-lister,
(51:57):
a-lister, but this was the topof my priority list based on the
resources that I think we couldget um, and also great fit for
the roles and luckily we got thescript to their manager, made
the offer and they both accepted.
And so we're talking about juddhirsch, who's an academy award
nominee um, he was working onthe spielberg film a week after
rally caps.
Amy smart is a legend in herown right and that's all great.
(52:17):
And I think that people think,oh, you make the offer, the
agent takes it to them.
And this is after we raised themoney already.
So we had them.
You have to have the money inplace to actually offer them.
Like, if you just come, ifyou're just trying to like get
someone attached, without money,it's not going to happen unless
that actor is like your bestfriend and and then they'll
attach themselves and allow youto use their name to raise money
(52:39):
.
But you can't do that age.
Yeah, you're going to run intoa wall if you're just trying to
uh, cold email the agent.
They're just going to ask youhow much you're offering and
what are the dates, and then youhave to put that money in
escrow and prove that you haveit.
So we did have that money and wedid offer it to them and we
thought we were golden or likeokay, we got, we got these
(53:00):
actors and and essentially thatwas true.
But the biggest pitfall that weran into was not registering the
movie with screen actors guildand they will have the power to
stop your film.
Yeah, don't have your you knowwhat together.
And at that point Kathy was noton the project, that she was
(53:22):
not planning to produce this,but she had to come on board at
that point and thank God and wealso had we got a line producer
that they knew what they weredoing and they pulled it all
together.
But we we had basically madethe offer with the budget and
all the our entire budget wentto them and we didn't think
about registering this, themovie, with Screen Actors Guild.
(53:45):
And we came within like a weekof of shooting the movie and
they were like this is not goingto be a go project and what
that means is like all thatmoney you put into escrow for
the actors, like that's going togo to them and they can take
that money if they want, whetheryou get your project or not.
Speaker 4 (54:06):
So you have to be depending on the contract.
But yes, yeah, so is it like a?
Speaker 1 (54:10):
was it like a pay or play deal, kind of thing?
Speaker 2 (54:14):
Yeah, you're only going to get pretty much player
pay.
Speaker 4 (54:19):
Yeah, I mean, that's one, that's pretty much one of
the challenges that you're goingto face with talent.
That, unfortunately, isbusiness for them.
It's not like oh, I love yourproject.
Speaker 2 (54:30):
For their representatives.
Speaker 4 (54:31):
For the representative, because the
actors are completely different.
No, no no, they're yeah, butyes, I mean and and one thing
that I want to emphasize a lotwhen you deal with SAG, it's so
much paperwork Like it's insanepaperwork that literally I mean
they've asked months in advanceto start doing the paperwork.
Speaker 2 (54:53):
Six to eight weeks is when you should start the
paperwork for SAG.
Wow, we started us, we, and wegot lucky.
So I don't want to put this outthere.
Like you know, you can come inthe 11th hour and it'll happen
Like, don't live on that becauseyou'll lose everything.
But we started like two weeksahead and we we lucked out.
But we also did have ourpaperwork and for the most part,
(55:16):
together too.
We got people to sign contractsand all that stuff.
But yes, six to eight weeks outis when you should start
registering with Screen ActorsGuild and also be prepared to
pay what they call a bond, whichdon't quote me on this, because
this is not exactly how itworks.
You'd have to talk to a SAGaffiliate, but it's.
(55:39):
It's essentially works like adeposit, where they take a
portion of your budget to makesure that their actors don't get
screwed over, cause you could,like promise the world to their
actors, and this is whathappened in the past and why
there's guilds in the firstplace.
You know filmmakers andproducers will promise something
to the actor and they never getpaid.
So that that bond, that deposit, is a big chunk of your budget
(56:03):
and you have to pay that.
Speaker 3 (56:04):
you have to put it into escrow right away and
that's on top of what you'vealready put in the escrow for
the actor.
Speaker 2 (56:11):
Yeah, exactly so in our case, right?
So I don't want to give you theexact numbers that we gave, but
I'm just going to give anarbitrary number just for the
sake of this conversation, allright.
So let's say you, your budgetis one hundred thousand dollars,
yeah, and you've got a majorstar, that's like I want to be
(56:33):
in it.
I, I'm not going to do it forless than 75 000.
I just can't.
My agents won't let me do it,right, so that 75 000 goes into
escrow, right, and that is gone,and so, like this is sort of
what we were dealing with.
We're like, oh, we got themoney to pay them, we're good.
But once that money went andlike we have 25 000 left over
(56:58):
and sag is like looking at ourbudget and they're like, okay,
well, our bond is 50 000 for forthis movie.
Right again, these are notnumbers that would actually work
out the way.
Speaker 4 (57:09):
Again, I'm just giving you like a simplified
yeah yeah, yeah, but justremember that as soon as, as
soon as you have sag actors,everybody else becomes sag even
if they're not in your past whatif it's a right?
Speaker 1 (57:24):
to work state does that make a difference?
Speaker 3 (57:26):
because then technically you can work on a
sag production.
If you're non-union, does thatmean you still?
Speaker 4 (57:31):
yes, you can, but you have a limited amount of people
that you can bring to a project.
Speaker 2 (57:38):
But a lot of our kids were not SAG and they have to
pay them SAG minimum and that'severyone who has a speaking line
, even if it's like someone inthe crowd that's like, yeah, go,
team right, or hey, good job,or like just hey, right, if
they're speaking something, theyare automatically sag,
(58:00):
automatically sag, um, so yeah,so yeah.
Anyway, going back to what I wassaying, like you know, we, you
know 25 000 left in the budgetand sag asked you know, for this
you have to put that in escrow,you have to to start raising
money, and that's what happenedwith us.
We were like, oh, my goodness,but it was much more than that,
(58:24):
and so we were in this holewhere we had to, like, raise the
money just to get it shot andwe shot out our stars in a
couple of days and then we hadto raise money to make the rest
of the film.
So everything you see with juddand amy, we shot in like a
three-day span.
Um, we consolidated to just thehouse scenes, but it still is
(58:46):
27 pages of script in three days, which is a lot yeah, that
blows my flipping mind.
Speaker 1 (58:54):
You guys got 27, 27 pages of script in three days.
Speaker 2 (58:59):
Yes, and we were not.
We were not like a runninggunning type where it's just,
like you know, we're runningaround outside with just one
camera and we can just usenatural lighting.
It was all indoors.
You're dealing with two starsthat would and let me just make
it clear, they're phenomenalBoth Amy and Judd and their
attitudes were great um,literally never really an issue
(59:22):
at all.
They were.
They knew the kind of projectwe were making and they were
just there to compliment, so wegot extremely lucky.
That being said, you can't just,like you know, throw juddd
Hirsch on set and start rolling,and it's not like he's not your
brother or your uncle whoagreed to be in the film.
(59:43):
You can kind of like, use themas a pawn piece and no actor,
even if they are your uncle andbrother.
You should not treat them likea pawn piece.
But there's not.
You know they need to have,like their honey you know what
we call honey wagons, which arejust their trailers and all of
that stuff.
Like, they need, you know, theyneed time, they need to work
(01:00:05):
with them, they need to get intotheir roles and so, yeah, it
was crazy, very crazy, but thereason we're talking about it
now is to help people beprepared.
Um, if you are prepared andthere's a lot of like,
especially with directors, thatthey show up on set and they're
super nervous and they're likeyou know, there's, uh, a lot of
(01:00:29):
anxiety and that's going tohappen anyway.
But if you come prepared,there's really nothing to worry
about.
You should be able to go outthere and play in your sandbox,
watch everything.
But you've got to do the workbeforehand to set the stage, um,
because if not, you're puttingyour, you're throwing yourself
out through the wolves and thatis where I feel that bring,
(01:00:50):
building a team is so important.
Speaker 4 (01:00:52):
Like everybody wants to be the director, the producer
, the writer, the blah, blah,like you know what.
Uh, I came on board because Isaw that I wanted lee to be the
creative.
I didn't want him to deal withpaperwork, I didn't want him to
be just he, although he's aproducer in the film, I didn't
want him to be a producer hatlike no, I mean, bring people
(01:01:12):
that you trust, that likeliterally delegate.
The learning how to delegate isimportant, but at the same time
, I know it's kind of scarybecause you need to build a team
that you trust and that is thebiggest challenge in this
industry Building a team thatyou can literally say I trust
you.
There's a lot of opencommunication, there's no egos
(01:01:33):
and unfortunately we're in afield, in an industry, where
egos are everywhere and dealingwith personalities.
Learning how to deal withpersonalities as a producer,
that is your job.
You need to.
Sometimes you're going to be atherapist, sometimes you're
going to be a mom, sometimesyou're going to be the I don't
know makeup person.
Like you know, it's like youwill have to be there for people
(01:01:54):
that sometimes you're like Iwas not expecting to be that.
But as a producer,unfortunately, we need to learn
how to deal with personalitiesand when.
Sometimes you have theopportunity to build your team
which is good for filmindependent, but when we started
doing these kind of projects,sometimes you bring people on
board that you were not meant toto bring, and there's
(01:02:17):
personalities that you need tolearn how to deal with and
sometimes it's not your bestfriend and you're not going to
be happy about it, and sometimesyou're going to be a bad cop
because you have to say no toeverything and they're going to
yell at you.
So it's learning as a producer,building that skill of
communication with differentkinds of personalities, and also
(01:02:39):
learning that it's not yourfault, learning that this is
business, not taking it sopersonal like building a thick
skin.
Basically and I alwaysrecommend open communication Try
to be as honest and say, hey,can we talk about this?
And if there's a lot ofroughness, just like, cool down
(01:03:02):
and just come back when you guyscan.
But that is the biggest thingthat I would recommend everybody
Just make sure that if you havea small team, build something
you love, speak with people,that that empowers you not to
put you down and if you can'tbuild a team, and it's just that
(01:03:23):
it happened learn how to, tolearn with um, deal with
personalities yeah, yeah, I willsay too as a on the creative
end.
Speaker 2 (01:03:35):
Uh, I think the the optics of this business is and I
will call it a business becauseit is a freaking business show
business Business is two moresyllables or another syllable
than show, so it's more businessthan it is showtime.
The optics are people look at,you know, filmmakers as artists,
(01:03:56):
right, that they're just likehaving fun, they're on set and,
like you know, wearing somehippie gown and just being
creative.
Well, look, let me tell youthis like and you guys know it's
like there is creativity.
A lot of that is involved, butthe stream of consciousness
should be for your writing.
A lot of that is involved, butthe stream of consciousness
(01:04:19):
should be for your writing.
But 99% of making a film isbusiness and logistics.
Even when you're doingsomething that's entirely small,
because you're figuring outwhat the location is, you're
figuring out what time theactors have to come.
So to Kathy's point definitelybuild a team that focuses on
this and understand that this is.
You know, I don't care whatyour judgmental uncle or aunt
(01:04:41):
are saying about your career.
You are doing as much businessin this art form than they're
doing in their business,probably more right, because you
are organizing a collective andyou have to be prepared and you
have to have a team and youhave to have people that are on
top of their stuff.
And, yes, the creative is anaspect of it and that's what
(01:05:04):
you're going to see on screen,but to get that stuff on screen
is, it's mostly business.
So start learning that aspectas soon as you can.
Speaker 3 (01:05:13):
We're essentially serial entrepreneurs because
you're starting, with each movie, a new business from the ground
up you know.
Speaker 1 (01:05:19):
So it's just non-stop all product and brand and sales
and distribution.
Speaker 3 (01:05:25):
It's so much mention managing the ones you already
started are everything onestartup company after an x right
?
Speaker 2 (01:05:31):
yeah, it is yeah yeah it's wild.
Speaker 1 (01:05:33):
Well, you guys, this has, like I got kind of quiet
there because I just felt like Iwas learning so much.
You guys have a great depth ofknowledge and experience and,
honestly, I'm just supergrateful for your transparency
and getting into some of thenitty gritty.
This it's like a nitty grittythat people don't want to get
into for some reason or another,but especially as independent
(01:05:56):
artists don't want to get intofor some reason or another, but
especially as independentartists, being that transparent
with each other I think is goingto help us to survive in what
is becoming the new movieindustry, which is this intense
democratization which I feellike is going to lead to the
downfall of the way thingspeople are used to doing things.
It really is the downfall of theway things people are used to
(01:06:16):
doing things.
It really is the downfall ofwhat people expect.
We hear old timers telling usyou know, just do X, y and Z,
and then people give you a checkand then you make this movie
and then it goes out and thenthis is the person who takes it
away for you and it's like well,actually, because we have the
luxury of needing very fewpeople's permission to make
movies.
Now it comes with this massiveresponsibility of having to do
(01:06:40):
all the jobs that you guys wentinto detail on in this episode,
and so getting into the grittydetails of how to do those jobs
is essential, so I really amjust grateful for that.
Speaker 3 (01:06:48):
Yeah, thank you so much.
You've been so generous withyour time and your knowledge and
I just want to finish by askingwhere can we send people to see
your work and what's next onthe horizon?
Speaker 2 (01:07:01):
the rally caps is on peacock, so just go there and if
you don't have, if you,obviously, if you have peacock,
you can watch it for free.
Uh, if you don't, you can stillwatch it for free.
Get a free trial and watch onthat.
We're really, we're directeverybody and for some reason
you can't.
It is on Apple TV and Amazonand for rent.
(01:07:23):
But I would guess, go toPeacock, go to Peacock yeah, but
for to contact us it'scrystalrockentertainmentcom.
Speaker 4 (01:07:32):
okay.
Speaker 3 (01:07:33):
so crystalrockentertainmentcom okay
we'll put that in the shownotes and get the spelling for
you, peacock and Crystal RockEntertainment dot com.
Go check out Rally Caps.
Speaker 1 (01:07:42):
Check out Rally Caps.
Some great performances.
I wish we could go more intodetail and to cast honestly than
we did, but I will just saythat not just your two names,
Judd and Amy, which were great,the whole cast.
I was really impressed by thework that had to have gone in to
cast that many people and thatmany children.
So just a lot to be proud ofyou guys.
(01:08:03):
So thanks so much for being onthe show and thanks for making
Rally Camps.
Speaker 4 (01:08:07):
Thank you.
Thank you for your time and yes, and if you have any questions,
we're here for you guys.
I mean, the idea is to help thecommunity somehow somewhere too
late, you know, um, and it'svice versa we learn from you
guys, you learn from us.
It's not just that because wemade it uh, we made more movies
than you guys.
You guys have also yourknowledge that probably
(01:08:29):
sometimes we can't like talkabout it and say like, oh, I
learned from that, you know, soshe's learning from each other.
Speaker 2 (01:08:37):
It's a community and, uh, we thank you guys, uh, for
your contribution, for gettingthis knowledge out there.
Um, because it's superimportant, because there's a
really weird dichotomy going onwith filmmakers right now, where
it's like I feel like what youjust said a second ago, ken,
about how accessible and, youknow, not easy it is to make,
(01:09:02):
but it's available everythingthat we need to make a film.
But it's never been harder,right, like than 10, 15 years
ago when you really needed to,even 20 years ago, like more.
So you needed a lot ofresources to get a movie made,
you had to shoot on film orwhatever it was.
It's accessible, but I stillthink filmmakers come with the
(01:09:26):
mentality of like the 1995Sundance Film Festival method,
where you're going to make yourbig film, it's going to get
picked up by some huge company,you're going to get a three
picture deal, and it's so weirdbecause that, like that, is gone
.
Like I don't even know.
I guess Sundance still has somebig payouts.
But that's what everyone'sfilmmaker dream is Like.
(01:09:47):
They go to film school and Idon't know what they're teaching
there, but like, but it's.
It's very strange, but it's acompletely new world.
And you know, kathy and I are,you know we usually watch the
Academy Awards.
We actually didn't watch themthis year.
Like I haven't watched any ofthe big films, and that's not to
say that like that's not stillbig and epic.
(01:10:10):
It's just how we're consuming.
Content is completely different.
Movies are different than theywere 15 years ago.
And so, yeah, get with theprogram.
Right, there's a lot moreopportunities.
It's just a lot different thanit was.
So you got to get over thisidea of being like the next
Tarantino and stuff, becauseTarantino did it in a different
(01:10:32):
era.
So, no, thank you, you guys,and I also congratulate you guys
on your success at science.
It was so nice to to connectand hey, like kathy said,
anytime we're here for you guyswould love to do it again.
awesome, hey.
Well, welcome lee and katherineto the film and family podcast.
We're so happy to have youthanks for having us.
Thank you yeah, so um, lee andkatherine are, um, a married
filmmaking duo, which soundsobnoxiously cheesy when I say it
like that, but no shame,because that's what we are.
(00:23):
And you guys are in Coloradoand they just released a film
that we became aware of becauseit was showing at the same
festival as us, called RallyCaps, and there's just so much
to dive into about Rally Caps.
But this is not your firstfeature film.
From what I've sleuthed onlineof you guys, this is like your
(00:44):
fourth, fifth.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
So it's my fourth film directing and it's our
second or third film as adirecting producing couple
Correct, kathy.
Speaker 3 (00:58):
Right.
Speaker 2 (00:59):
Okay, I think it's the third.
Yeah, it's hard to keep count,but yes, indeed.
Speaker 3 (01:07):
So it sounds like, catherine, you're the one who
got kind of pulled into this.
Is that right?
Speaker 4 (01:14):
Yes, a little bit, a little bit.
Yes, the first time he talkedto me about the project he had
another book that he wanted toum to adapt.
But I have a marketingbackground and when he brought
me that first book, I'm like Idon't know how to market this.
I mean, I know you love it.
(01:34):
Uh, he was holding likeexciting about it and I'm like I
don't know how to market this,so I would recommend not to
waste time on adapting a bookthat book.
So I would recommend not towaste time on adapting a book
that book.
Then he got this book and thenI said, before I read the book,
pitch it to me, give me anelevator pitch.
And he did.
(01:56):
And actually I said I know howto market this and definitely.
Then he started writing it andI got involved once production
started and and I saw somedifficulties in production that
he was facing because he wasdirector, writer, producer.
So he's like, no, I think thatyou need help.
So that's how.
Speaker 3 (02:15):
I got involved, okay, so was it a book first or was
it just he wrote the screenplay?
It was a book first yeah.
I didn't realize that it's abook yeah, it's a book, it's,
it's.
Speaker 4 (02:25):
It's a little different, I think, and leak,
you can talk about theadaptation of the book.
Um, it's a little different,but um, go ahead yeah, it's
based on a book by uh.
Speaker 2 (02:35):
It's a.
It's a daughter father, uhcombination writing team, steven
cutler and jody mich Cutler,and they wrote the book based on
their.
It's an amalgamation of theirown experiences.
So there's a lot of truestories Jodi's story, stephen's
story, essentially, and thenJodi's son who wears a cochlear
(02:56):
implant.
Lucas's character is based onher son, and so they amalgamated
the the storylines into a bookthat was released, I believe, in
2008.
So it's been out for a bit andStephen reached out to me back
when it was released, because itwas after my first couple of
films had come out throughLionsgate and he found me online
(03:19):
.
He sent me a bunch ofmemorabilia and he'd already
made shirts for the movie and hewas really excited and I
thought at that time I mean, Idefinitely always wanted to make
a baseball movie.
I love the Sandlot, field ofDreams, all of those iconic
films, america's Pastime Sliceof know.
(03:45):
Americana always wanted to sortof live in that space and work
in that space, and this was anopportunity to do that.
But it's also making a baseballmovie with kids.
Is is pretty expensive for aindependent micro budget feature
and that's really the theprojects that I was working on
at the time and so, you know, 10, 15 years past, I had pitched
(04:09):
the project to Disney.
When I worked there, theyactually they liked it.
So they said and but it wasjust, it's just hard to make
those types of movies, thatthose really are budgeted at 15,
20, 25 million dollars and, uh,it's, it's just hard to to
market and profit them in this,you know, in this new landscape
(04:34):
of distribution, and so I triedto to pitch the idea, uh, with
disney and several other youknow platforms, but we just
weren't getting anywhere.
And then, during the time of thepandemic, steven reached out
again.
Um, I call I always call it thequarterly report with him
(04:55):
because he would check in everyfew months.
Uh, he was very, very dedicatedand it was a big dream of his
and it, you know, beginning of2020, we everything shut down.
You guys know it, all theprojects that I was developing
with my manager, um, just justeverything shut down.
(05:17):
So it was an opportunity for meto work on something that I
wanted to do, and that's when II just thought I was going to
adapt the screenplay and thenthe screenplay would just sort
of sit in a drawer, so to speak,the digital, digital drawer of
my or digital folder of mylaptop, yeah, and.
But it was finally a projectwhere I could, you know, just
(05:38):
have some fun and and and workon a Sandlot-type kids' baseball
movie and see where it goesfrom there.
And, long story short, itstarted to pick up some traction
after the first couple ofdrafts.
People liked it.
My manager said it was one ofthe best things he's seen from
(06:00):
me.
This was all surprising.
And then, little by little, wegained traction.
We were going to just make itas a very small micro budget
project and then we gotinvestors and resources.
Curtis pride came on who's inthe movie, his kids are in the
movie playing lucas and nikkithose are his children and he
(06:22):
got major league baseball, uh,involved.
And suddenly just the, the, youknow the the status raised.
That really raised the bar.
And then we got additionalinvestors.
And then then here we are.
Speaker 4 (06:38):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (06:39):
That's awesome.
I really like this idea of likethe project kind of carrying
itself away, almost like becausethat was our last film, I feel
like our first film, we reallyfelt like a little more like we
were digging in the dirt withour fingernails.
Speaker 4 (06:54):
You know.
Speaker 1 (06:55):
And then the second one.
It was like we had like twokind of developing at the same
time One just kind of droppeddead, and then the other one
just kind of opened up and itjust and it just wouldn't stop.
It just, and it hasn't stopped,it just keeps going without us
and we're like, oh, this is niceof you to bring us along, you
know, but it doesn't really feellike this force of will, and so
that's kind of what you'resaying.
(07:16):
You're like, oh wow, the scriptwas received well, and then
people are coming on board andit's at least and it doesn't
feel like that every day, I'msure but like, but there's to
feel that wind in the sailssometimes.
Speaker 2 (07:26):
So well articulated and me and Kathy are both or
Kathy and I are both spiritualpeople and we do believe in the
laws of the universe, andespecially as it pertains to
this industry.
It feels like you can beworking on something and
dedicate all your time to it andfeel like this is the project
(07:47):
that's going to pick up and go,and it doesn't happen.
And so often, as filmmakers,we're spending so much of our
time and resources to getsomething off the ground and it
can be years and years and youknow, it's sort of a house of
cards and it just like, I feel,like other businesses.
You can work on something andit's more cards and it just like
I feel like other businesses.
You, you, you can work onsomething and it's more tangible
, and it might not succeed, butyou, you have something to show
(08:12):
for it.
But you can develop a project inthis industry for years and
just nothing like, just it justdissipates, and so that's years
of your life, um, and thensomething like you know, rally
caps, which is ironic to saybecause you know it was 15 years
in the.
Something like you know rallycaps, which is ironic to say
because you know it was 15 yearsin the making, you know,
especially with the writers whenthey reached out to me.
But honestly, when it cametogether, it came together very
(08:34):
fast and it was the pretty muchthe last project that I thought
was it that was going to happento, especially during the
pandemic when everyone wasmaking films about two people in
a cabin, like that's what youwere supposed to do giant camp.
It's full of like a covidcentral, like it's like yes you
know, 16 kids, their parents, acamp, like it's the last, like
(08:58):
kind of the last thing to do isa micro budget film at that
point, and of course that's theone that happens.
But, um, to your point, yeah,you, just you have to, you know,
ride the river downstreamsometimes and when it's meant to
be, it's meant to be and we, wefully believe in that,
especially because of all of thecheckpoints along the way, and
(09:21):
I'm not sure if we have the timeto get into all of it, but it
just really really crazy.
Things had to happen, smallmiracles, maybe even big
miracles.
You know, kathy, that we thathappened to keep this project
going because there was manypoints along the line that it
was about to shut down.
And it just something at thelast minute, bottom of the ninth
(09:43):
, as we joke like somethingwould happen and it would stay
alive.
Speaker 4 (09:48):
And so I always say to him I was like we have the
executive producer, was theuniverse, that's it.
I mean, there was alwayssomething that when he was ready
to like, ok, this is it,something happened.
Ok, we keep moving, but it waslike that at the end Something
happened and he's like, okay, wekeep moving, but it was like
that at the end, like I feelthat this last six months of the
movie I was already trustingthe universe so much that it's
(10:11):
like you know what Everything isgoing to work out.
I don't know how, but it will,because it was so many things
that happened through the moviethat it's like, okay, I'm going
to trust this, I'm going to domy job, and that's as much as I
can control.
Once you leave, let go.
Speaker 3 (10:28):
The control, I think, is when things start going to
happen, yeah, yeah, I think youhave to kind of let go of the
result, and just that's how it'sbeen for us too, where we just
have to have lots of irons inthe fire and we don't really
know what's going to happen when, um, the thing we're developing
next is one we wrote seven oreight years ago, and it it's
just like maybe now is the timeyou know, and you never really
know until it's it starts tocome together and it's weird
(10:50):
that it just it will stall aslong as it needs to, and then
all of a sudden, you're like Ineed, I need I need something
right now.
Speaker 1 (10:55):
And then something breaks and it's always, like you
guys said, one of our nights.
I so relate to that.
I really appreciate thatperspective.
It makes me feel less crazy.
Speaker 3 (11:05):
So can we rewind a little?
I just want to because you havea history of doing this for a
while kind of take us back tothe beginning of your career.
You said you worked at Disney,but now you're doing independent
film.
How did you get into this?
Is this what you guys are doing, full time to support your
family?
What did that look like for you?
Speaker 2 (11:28):
Yeah, in a nutshell, like I think it was David
Mammoth who said that every timehe approaches a screenplay it's
a completely different process,despite him being a master at
it at this point, rightConsidered a master at it at
(11:49):
this point, right Considered amaster.
And so it's so hard to, I guess, combine the entire experience
because, as you guys know, everytime you make a movie it's a
different process.
But I think what really got meinto it was just the power of
the medium.
The first time that I was ableto make a short film in high
school and it was just mybuddies and a couple of
classmates and, like the teachershut off the room, we showed it
(12:10):
in class and people weretouched by it, you know, and
laughed and you know and allthat.
So it's, it's a really powerfulmedium to get messages out, and
I think that also there's, ofcourse, the allure and as a
younger filmmaker, like you know, you love the awards and the
red carpet and everything andthat's exciting too, right,
(12:43):
toets?
And all that kind of stuffdoesn't hold a torch to the
power of being able tocontribute to society with
things that can really touchpeople and move people and move
audiences, and so that's why Iknow that I stuck with it and
all that other stuff is.
Can I curse?
Is that okay?
It's just PC.
Speaker 3 (13:03):
We won't stop it or edit it, it's okay.
Speaker 2 (13:06):
I'll clean it up for you guys, but it's BS.
Speaker 3 (13:10):
If people have their kids around, I guess yeah.
Speaker 2 (13:12):
So I'll just say it's BS.
All of this other.
You know you should feel proudof your work and you should feel
proud of awards and all of thatstuff.
But if you go into it like aself-fulfilling prophecy or you
know a rites of passage foryourself, I just don't think
(13:33):
you're going to get to the placeyou want to be At least that's
been the journey for me is thepower to get people to watch
something and learn somethingabout themselves or connect
something about it, because it,you know it does have the power
to save lives, and so that'swhat drives me I, I really
(13:57):
appreciate that perspectivebecause, um, you know, we're on
movie number two.
Speaker 1 (14:02):
Movie number one didn't didn't do a ton of awards
, in terms of that, you know,but it was really exciting to
watch it with people.
It was nerve-wracking too.
But movie number two it waslike just this blessing of like
working super hard on it andthere was, like you know,
saturday morning it showed andthen Saturday night it won a lot
of awards.
(14:22):
It did pretty well with youguys as well.
You guys did really well atZiff.
But, yeah, like the awards arestrange and conflicting and you
have these things that happen inyour head where you're like,
well, these are just like thatperson's opinion versus that
person's opinion and it's weirdwhat it does to you actually and
then like, but sitting in thatroom, like experiencing a story
that you've really put together,like to your point, with that
(14:43):
audience I remember StevenSpielberg talking about
recreating that and the fablemen's, like his early
experiences, like showing shortfilms in high school, basically,
and how he's hooked on thatfeeling, that feeling of showing
it to an audience and feelingthis feeling of like I can, I
can like create this, thismassive collective experience of
like fear or laughter or tearsor whatever, or inspiration and
(15:08):
like it's, like that's, that's,I'm not sure what it is that
makes that so amazing.
But we've often said that a filmis a medium of best suited for
connection, not conversion.
Like I really I don't know, Ijust I resonate a lot with that
perspective.
So I appreciate that.
How do you feel like your earlyfilms and early career really
(15:30):
prepared the way for this film?
Because you were saying thatthe book, the author, he like,
reached out to you so he wasfamiliar with your work and and
that's kind of what we're allabout is trying to get people
like some momentum, like getthat first film made so you can
create momentum enough to have acareer.
But most people just sit around, they don't make anything.
Speaker 3 (15:52):
Well, and I think a lot of people feel like maybe
their first film they try tomake too big of a leap.
You know, it's like we've gotto make a million dollar film,
we've got to have name talent,we've got to do all these things
, and so we really try toencourage our audience to start
small.
You know, and typically what weteach is sort of getting
(16:12):
financing in whatever way youcan keep your day job, like
doing this, on the side untilyou can build it up Logistically
.
Was that kind of how your firstfilm looked, you know, or was
it independent from the verybeginning for you?
Speaker 2 (16:44):
no-transcript.
They naturally started small,and why we're I feel like we're
such a good uh, um, acollaboration of minds is that
we're both creative, um and butKathy's very organized with um,
(17:12):
you know, being able to lead oneside of the production and I
can lead the other side.
So it was always helpful in themicro budget space to have a
partner who could, you know,understand how the logistics of
it and I can go be a little bitmore creative.
So naturally, we did start fromvery small projects and I think
(17:32):
that is naturally good advicefor filmmakers that are starting
.
But I also would just say thatit really depends on the
situation.
Right, there's people who gettheir starts with selling a
great script.
They might have some fantasyhuge idea that they can.
It's free to write a script.
(17:53):
Right, it's not free in termsof time and effort and sweat and
blood and sweat and tears, butit's free.
You don't have to invest yourown money into it.
So if you write a really greatscript and go that way, that's
your path and you can get itmade.
But if you're looking to reallyget something off the ground, if
you don't have that big idea,if you don't have that big
script that's selling and you'retrying to make it on your own.
(18:15):
Yes, small and concentrated,but I would just also really
push the idea that what inspiresyou needs to be personal and so
whatever that takes right.
So just going out and sayingI'm going to make a film for I
don't know $5,000 because I can,you know, great, have at it.
(18:40):
But I think, circling back toour earlier point, where, if
it's really coming from withinand you have something to say,
whatever it takes to make thatthe right way, that's what you
got to go for.
And if it happens to be a smallbudget, great.
Speaker 4 (18:56):
But um, I would like to add something to go for me uh
, from a producer's perspectivebecause, uh, for example, my
background I started this careeras a line producer.
I started like, fromcoordinating to all the way to
line producer to UPM and one ofthe things is that when we moved
(19:17):
to LA, I ended up in marketing.
For some reason, life took meto marketing and I started
working in big studios inmarketing, in creative marketing
, in marketing, in creativemarketing.
And when I started learningabout marketing, I said anybody
should study marketing if youwant to be a producer.
(19:38):
I totally agree, and I thinkRiley Capps is a very good
example.
You can market a movie withheart.
If you really feel that themovie has a heart, that is a
passion of yours and all thatstuff perfect.
But at the same time let's berealistic it's a business.
If you want to stay in thisbusiness, you have to sell the
(19:58):
movie.
You have to know your audience,you have to know where the
market.
The cool thing that ishappening right now is that
there's so many genres and somany like you know that you can
concentrate on many things, thatthere's so many genres and so
many like you know that, uh, youcan concentrate on many things
and there's always going to be aa an audience for your movie,
but uh, but one of the biggestthings that I always say to
(20:21):
people is, like, before youreally go to the next project,
really think about marketing.
Think about who is my audience,who I can sell.
Honestly, if there's big actorsor not, that's not the thing.
Once you know that there's anaudience out there, okay, start
managing the story based on theaudience that you know and then
(20:44):
just put your heart in it.
But don't disregard that aspectof marketing.
But don't disregard that aspectof marketing.
And I think that's why it'slike every project that we have
done.
From the beginning I've beenalways picky with Lee of like,
how can I market this?
Who would watch this?
Because just making movies foryourself or your family, if you
want to stay in this business,that would be hard right.
(21:04):
So that aspect I wouldencourage every producer to
learn about marketing.
And it's not even aboutdistribution, it's more about
marketing how can you make yourmovie and put it out there?
That is with a great story, ofcourse.
Speaker 3 (21:21):
Yeah, yeah.
We're in the thick of that Ithink that's something we've
been learning is likedistributors, for the most part,
are going to put your movieplaces, but they're not going to
get people in the theater seatsor to go watch it on the
platform.
So marketing has to be donesomewhere, whether you're
working with a team or doing ityourself, like we do on indie
projects a lot.
Speaker 2 (21:42):
Yes, such a great point.
And distribution.
I think a lot of new filmmakerscome into it with the idea that
a distributor picks up theirfilm and that's it.
They're going to take it,they're going to put it out in,
you know, in the trades,everywhere they're going to.
You know, put out this amazingtrailer and they're going to
work 24 seven to just likepromote your film.
(22:05):
And, yeah, unless you're Marvel,like a Marvel movie, that sort
of effort's not going to happen.
It's impossible for them.
They don't have the bandwidth.
In fact it's pretty much and Ihate and I don't want to reduce
it to this.
But specifically on our levelof film, which you know, I'm
talking about independent filmsmade for under 5 million, let's
(22:27):
just put it in that category.
Made for under $5 million,let's just put it in that
category.
You're really going to get adistributor that has a Rolodex,
an index of a bunch of moviesthat they're taking out to all
the film markets and they've gotto come with volume and they're
not going to prioritize yourfilm.
Even if your film is thebiggest one with stars in it,
(22:51):
it's not going to get that sortof attention.
And even if you are prioritized, it's still not going to be the
attention that you know youwant.
So to Kathy's point and yourpoint, anna, like it's so
important that come in with you,know, with your own strategy,
with your own sense of marketing.
Know with your own strategy,with your own sense of marketing
(23:14):
.
And yes, we we rally caps hadthe advantage of kathy being in
the marketing world, havingworked for the studios and
everything, um, but coming inwith those pieces in place and a
game plan to bring to thedistributor and really be
extremely active, not dominatingand not having delusional
(23:35):
expectations, but coming to themwith ideas like so we brought,
you know, we brought resourcesto them when we, uh, when we got
our distribution deal, we camewith ideas, um, and we weren't
relying on them to to hit agrand slam or pull miracles out
(23:56):
of their pants, like that'sreally the mindset you should.
It's you make the film and youfinish it, don't just hand it
off to the distributor.
Distribution is probably whereyou should put most of your
resources and energy on thislevel and I know that's crazy to
say, because everyone you knowwho makes a film on this level
(24:18):
feels like they've sacrificedtheir entire life and their,
their, their, their wellbeing toget it made.
But really, distribution is soimportant, especially now,
because it's a game aboutgetting attention.
It's not anyone in the worldcan click one of our films and
watch it in a matter of seconds,like it's accessible to
(24:40):
everyone on Earth in a matter ofseconds.
It's about attention, and sothat's the big game.
That's the name of the game now.
Speaker 4 (24:49):
And I will recommend to any budget like, even if you
have a thousand dollars budget,just put a hundred bucks or any
kind of budget into marketing.
That has to be in your budgetand be smart about it on how to,
how to do it.
And there's a lot of cheapresources nowadays that you can
(25:09):
literally put ads out there inGoogle ads and social media.
Create the land, the landingpages and all that stuff to like
really really promote yourmovie.
You know, highly recommendeverybody to have behind the
scenes.
Behind the scenes is going tobe your major, major thing in
marketing because he's likeyou're going to have what is
(25:31):
happening, documenting thebehind the scenes.
Uh, amazing pictures when youare doing your movie.
Uh, have a photo shoot likebelieve it or not.
It's like sometimes peoplebelieve don't think about those
things.
Oh, I'm gonna take it from themovie.
No, no, no just one sheetanything to help you market the
(25:51):
movie um at the end.
So just just think about thatthat's a.
Speaker 2 (25:56):
One of the big tips we learned on this one was you
know, a lot of people don't takestills on set of their actors
and they, when they get todistribution, they don't have a
really refined looking posterbecause they don't have really
good images of their actors.
So they have to, you know,create one from scratch or they
have to do a reshoot and theactors are all older.
(26:17):
So, yeah, when you're on set,take your actors off to the side
and get stills for formarketing, and and think about
your one sheet, because that'swhat you're, and and think about
your one sheet, because that'swhat you're.
That's the first thing a lot ofthese distributors are seeing.
Is that poster before yourtrailer, before anything else?
So you've got to think about allthese things and you know not
(26:40):
to feel like I'm talking out ofboth sides of my mouth, because
earlier I was giving you knowthe advice to make a film from
your heart, and you should.
But once you got that story inplace, to Kathy's point, you've
got to start knocking down thestrategy of marketing and where
(27:01):
it's going to find its audience.
And you know, if you have aChristmas movie, then you know
what the audience is and youknow who you can approach and
you know who you can approachand you can.
You know how you can tweak thescript to sort of fit certain
platforms that put out Christmasmovies.
Because you want to put out,you might want to make the next,
(27:23):
the newest, freshest Christmasmovie idea that hasn't been done
before and it's going to be thecitizen Kane of Christmas
movies.
Speaker 4 (27:30):
That's all great, but you should have at least an
idea on a high platform thatyou're going to approach and and
again, yeah, if, for example,in this movie, lee wrote the
movie and when he gave it to me,I gave him not a creative, I
gave him marketing notes.
I said you would market itwould be marketing if you can
just tweak this.
And he was little tweaks, he.
(27:51):
I'm not one of the things, I'mnot sacrificing his story, I
just know that if you put someelements, hey, I know this.
The other thing is that peopledon't realize is product
placement is like okay, well, ifyou make this and make this
tweak, like okay, well, if youmake this and make this tweak, I
(28:13):
can go and ask somebody tosponsor it, our movie, and voila
, you get money or you get somekind of free stuff.
So those kind of thinking.
So you can write your movie andthe movie that you want to make
, but then go and talk tosomebody that has a marketing
experience, say, hey, how can wetweak and make this more
markable?
Speaker 2 (28:28):
yes, yeah, look, yeah , sorry, go ahead.
No, I've been talking a lot, soyou, you go for it fine.
Speaker 1 (28:35):
No, I love what you guys are both saying.
The bts marketing in theproduction budget and the stills
on set, um are all things thatI've recently heard from
distributors about, so I willjust add my testimony to what
you guys are saying and so thatit's something people ask about
and it is, it's valuable.
And then the other thing youwere saying was about
(28:58):
sponsorship.
I do want to ask about thatbecause as you evolve, you know,
from asking your uncle for$10,000 to make your first, you
know out of pocket movie tohaving larger budgets, something
we've started to learn is youhave to piecemeal those budgets
to reduce the equity financeportion of that budget as much
as possible, because equity isthe most expensive money you can
(29:20):
get.
And so you're mentioning thingslike product placement or even
just sponsorship.
You mentioned the mlb earlier.
This seems like a good seguefor me to just ask what did that
look like on this film?
How do you pursue thoserelationships?
Because I've recently read anarticle from a guy who works on
the brand side of like fundingcreative projects and he was
very like this is how I wouldapproach a brand, but don't do
(29:43):
it because it's rude and likebasically give up now.
Speaker 3 (29:55):
Like he give up now, like he was very pessimistic in
his article, even though it washad valuable information.
His his perspective was thebrand approaches the filmmaker,
not the other way around.
We actually have been trying tofigure out how to do
sponsorship and productplacement relationships
unsuccessfully, so I'd love tolearn how did that evolve for
you guys?
Speaker 2 (30:03):
on this one, so the, so sorry.
I the the brand approaches thefilm and not the other way
around.
Well, if that was, if that'sthe case, then we would have
never gotten any sponsors forour movie.
Uh, no, don't believe in that.
I don't think you do either.
Uh, yes, you definitely,especially because the movie
can't be made without thesponsorship.
You know that's part of thebudget, so like you're coming to
(30:25):
them to come on board.
Um, I have a lot to say in thisspace.
Kathy Knott knows a lot moreabout this, so I'm going to pass
this off to her in a second.
I'll just say for filmmakers, Ithink a lot of times they can
be a little precious and withtheir story and they're like,
well, it's a distraction.
(30:46):
It's like you know a characteris talking and also they drink a
Coca-Cola and my argument.
And you go and watch Netflixmovies right now.
You see it there.
They're all over in your face.
But you know what.
You forget about it in a coupleof seconds.
But you know not in terms oflike the sponsor.
They get there, you know liketheir audience might go grab a
(31:06):
Coke and that's what they wantand that's all they need.
But in terms of your story,people are not going to think
about the Coca-Cola within yourstory after a couple seconds,
let them be annoyed.
You move on and you get yourfilm made and, but you know,
find a way to get it into yourstory, your script, without it
compromising, but approachingsponsors and all of that stuff.
(31:27):
That's definitely got to bedone.
Really, at the script stage youstart having those
conversations.
It's really great.
In our case, one of our biggestsponsors was Phonak.
They're a hearing aid company.
Obviously, one of ourcharacters has a cochlear
implant, recent surgery, and soit was a really good fit because
(31:53):
it fit with the integrity ofthe story and that character is
a very strong character and soyou want to look for a really
good combination and not as muchrandom stuff.
Speaker 1 (32:05):
But let me just ask was that product placement, the
shot right before the swim testwhen he puts it, that's that
product placement, the shotright before the?
Speaker 4 (32:10):
swim test.
Speaker 1 (32:11):
There you go.
That's the product placement,zero distraction.
I just thought it was reallyinteresting because I thought
that's a nice detail that we seethe kid take it out and put it.
It just felt like the worldbuilding of one kid's got
anxiety.
This other kid's dealing withthis part of his life where he
he has to put these things inand out, and it helps, I think
(32:32):
children watching a movie kindof that adds to the value of the
film, in my opinion, because ithelps these children realize
like this kid can't swim withthese in.
There are people like this inthe world.
So when you meet one it's like,oh yeah, I kind of know about
that and it's not this weird,like I'm going to treat him
weirdly.
You know, I don't know, for meit was nice, so I never for once
was like, oh, what the like?
Speaker 2 (32:53):
you know hey buy this thing you know well that's a
perfect example of and thank youfor noticing that.
I think it you, you can weaveit into your store if you work
with the brand and they, ifyou're, on, aligned with the
integrity of what the story is,then you can, you can weave it
(33:14):
seamlessly in.
Um, it's not gonna always bethe case, but in that case of
you know, in in our situation,it was a perfect fit and, um, it
could, you could serve eachother.
But it also is about workingwith the brand and being
open-minded, right, right, like.
So.
That scene was not necessarilywritten with an emphasis on
(33:36):
seeing what he was wearing, butwe did want the audience to know
that he needed a differentdevice and a protection for the
hearing aid to swim, and that isimportant to his character
building.
Uh, and so we worked with thebrand to figure out a way that
works for both sides.
(33:57):
Um, but yeah, kathy, I don'tknow if you uh had anything to
add in terms of the businessside of it, but yeah, this is
this is a very extensive uhtopic actually mean we can do
just one podcast about marketingand sponsors.
Speaker 4 (34:13):
But I feel that this is the way to make independent
filmmaking.
But it's how you approach thebrands.
Like, there's two differentpaths.
One yes, you have to haveconnections.
You have to have people thatare sellers.
There's agencies there outthere that specialize in product
placement.
Basically, they are the onesthat work with brands.
(34:35):
They're agencies by themselves.
They work with brands andbasically the brand sometimes
says, hey, you know what I need?
I don't know, I need a moviewhere I can put my Toyota in
there, and then the agenciesstart looking for those kinds of
projects.
So, having those connections inthe agencies, with the agencies
(34:55):
, it would be.
It's amazing With sales people.
Sales people are the ones thatare always looking for projects
or something that will help youto like hey, let me take this
project and put it and take itto a brand.
There's many different things ofwhy they want to sponsor your
movie.
Number one we had Amy Smart andJudd Hurch, so that helped
(35:17):
because they give the okay, thisis legit, they have a budget.
Also, it depends on thesponsorship.
It's like okay, are you sellingthis per line.
Like, how many lines do youhave?
Do you create packages ofselling packages, like one
package is like if your productwill be on here, it would be
(35:39):
this much If you have lines plusproduct, is this much?
So you start creating marketingpackages, basically sponsorship
packages.
The biggest sponsor we had wasFonec, but we had other sponsors
where we're like just adding toa film, like, for example, it's
like Hot Dog Stand, it's like,okay, we had this big brand.
(36:01):
They knew that the movie waslegit because we had two big
actors, so they won the productthere.
But they didn't give us anykind of money.
They were just productplacement there.
But doesn't matter, becausethat give that raises the
product, um, the project, alittle bit more than just having
a hot uh, yeah, a hot, uh, hotdog stand.
(36:24):
A simple hot dog stand, yeah,then a really good brand,
exactly.
So that that makes a bigdifference.
What I would say for juststarting projects do the simple
things in your budget.
You're going to have catering.
You're going to have expensesin food.
You're going to have expensesin makeup.
(36:44):
You're going to have expenses,all that.
You can approach people thatliterally for restaurants.
You can approach restaurantsfor them to sponsor your food
every single day and all theywant probably would be just a
shot of the outside of therestaurant or just simple a
(37:06):
credit, or just when the posteris out there to put a sponsor by
and they have look for makeuppeople that wants to like I
don't know salons that wants topromote themselves.
It's free marketing for themand you can actually like
literally have a big audience.
So when you approach these kindof things, you can start
(37:28):
lowering your budget a lot.
That's a great point you don'thave to just think about getting
money back, like, oh, I'm goingto sell this package, I'm going
to get money so I can do this.
No, no, no, what in your budget?
You can start reducing thebudget and approach those people
that is like, oh, you know what?
They probably I don't knowwhoever makes cupcakes can.
(37:49):
Actually, I have cupcakes in myfilm, you know, it's like that
person would love it and a shotof the cupcakes and the picture
of their brand, that's it whatthey want.
So be creative in that aspect.
But I feel that this is thebest way to do it for
independent filmmaking, becausewe don't have to return the
money to do it for independentfilmmaking, because we don't
(38:10):
have to return the money.
Speaker 1 (38:10):
You guys didn't use a local salon to do the uh, the
broken nose makeup because thatwas really good.
Actually I was.
It was almost too good.
I was like, ah, this is likegraphic, man, this kid's nose
situation actually we hiredsomebody from vegas oh that was,
but that one actually was aconnection.
So they did a good job yeah.
Speaker 2 (38:29):
Yeah, especially, yeah, like she came in and
literally just did that for oneday, but yeah, it was obviously
worth the resources to like pulloff, like how realistic it is.
But going back a second.
So this is a conversation Kathyand I have had for our next
film, no-transcript.
(39:09):
But the money that you don'thave to make back is is is
really helpful, it, it umcertainly helps going to into
into distribution if you're onlynow only looking to get singles
and doubles out of it and nottrying to get a grand slam
because you think you have tomake all this money back um.
So I I think what I'm trying tosay is that, like this could be
(39:30):
, we're looking at it as that'sthe future of micro budget
filmmaking is trying to get itfully sponsored.
The riches are in the niches.
Try to, even if a brand it likefunds your entire movie and
let's say, like you know, Idon't know it's a construction
company, you can make yourentire movie around that
(39:51):
construction company.
The main character has that.
You know, like their job is,you know they're a construction
worker, an architect orsomething like that, and the
brand finances the whole movie.
Right, if you're making areally small, you know, that's
what we would try to propose andnot raise private equity, which
we did both of.
(40:12):
We've had private equity andsponsorship big chunks, but it
still is going to be a mountainto climb and we have stars and
all of these things that we didright.
And I'm not saying our movie isperfect by any means.
It is what it is.
It's got flaws.
But the actual making of it wefeel like we checked a lot of
(40:33):
boxes.
There was a ton of set, sweatequity, the movie production
value most people believe ismaybe two, three times the
amount that we actually spent.
But that was on the backs of somuch effort put on by main
people that took back end.
So we did all the things rightand we're still looking at a
(40:54):
really big uphill battle just tomake our money back.
So that's just the reality ofit.
So yeah, it's not just aboutconsolidizing the budget, it's
about if you can get sponsorshipand not have to make the money
back, that's great.
If you can get sponsorship andnot have to make the money back,
that's great.
(41:14):
And one last real quick point isI think even if you're making a
movie for $1,000 or $5,000, Ithink a lot of people go into it
and they're just like.
They just start and they juststart putting money into it and
they figure it out and at theend of the day, they spent they
think they spent more than theywanted to, or they didn't spend
money in the right areas andthey run out of money.
(41:35):
Do a budget.
Do you know consult with a lineproducer, who who is, or if you
have experience with budgets?
It's such an important thingLike get a program you can get
free trials.
Important thing Like get aprogram you can get free trials.
Look at the line items and lookat the reality of it.
(41:55):
Like if you have all of yourfriends working for you and all
the actors are putting it on theback end and they're not,
that's all great, you're savingmoney, but you want to feed your
crew and cast right.
Like you know finding a way toget decent food, whether by
sponsorship or whatever.
Like you know other otherequipment, do you really need
(42:15):
certain things or can you shootit a different way where you
don't need that?
I don't know.
Like that Fisher dolly that'sjust going to be sitting there
after the one you know fiveminutes that you used for that
one shot and then it's sittingthere, like that's happened to
me, like my DP wanted a Fisherdolly for this great dolly shot,
and if that shot looks great itdoes, it's a great piece of
(42:38):
equipment.
But then it sat there for therest of the day because we had
to make our day.
We didn't have time to to to,you know, develop shot design
for these, you know.
You know develop shot designfor these, you know, for the
Fisher Dolly, and so, yeah, it'sthose kinds of things like
really budgeted out, and so youcan see it from a bird's eye
(42:59):
view where you're going to spendyour money.
Because even at a low level, Isee people wasting so much money
on nonsense and none of it goeson screen.
Speaker 4 (43:08):
One thing that I wanted to add.
There is the contingency.
No, nobody.
What is contingency?
Contingency is the money thatyou just save in case of
something happens, and peoplenever think about this and then
at the end, and then you do allyour budget and all that stuff
and then you're like, oh, I runout of money, like no, no, no.
One of the things I'm going totell you is that put some kind
(43:31):
of money out there.
And my second advice please,please, please, try to find a
lawyer.
Don't try to do a contract withAI.
It's insane what happens yourbest friend like is like from my
whole career, that is what.
I'm already an expert readingcontracts because I had to learn
(43:53):
so much of like, um, just anadvice, or even just see a
sponsor of a lawyer.
They can't do that.
You know like, hey, can youlook at this, can you sponsor my
movie and can you help me?
And the contracts are feelingindependent.
Independence is not that big,but I will always advise
contingency on a budget,marketing budget, and then
(44:15):
something that is legal aspects,because when you go into
distribution, you're going tohave a lot of legal aspects and
there's things that you were notcounting on and that you need
somebody outside of you to seeif this is convenient for you or
not.
Speaker 1 (44:32):
That's really great advice.
We actually are, um have yet torelease an already recorded
podcast episode with PeterSalsich, who's a entertainment
lawyer, who who goes intoworking that into your budget,
kind of stuff.
So check that episode out, if,if that's of interest, which it
should be, to Catherine's point.
So I appreciate you mentioningsome of those things that are.
We all know people look overthem, because at least Anne and
(44:55):
I have done that looking overGuilty.
You guys.
This is so awesome.
I have a couple other thingsbefore we wrap up.
I wanted to ask.
You mentioned at the beginningabout having a manager, so talk
to me about um.
Managers aren't agentsnecessarily, but do you have an
agent?
Do you have a manager?
Speaker 3 (45:15):
Is this for writing or directing?
Speaker 1 (45:17):
Writing, directing, and has that been valuable for
you in your career?
Or do you feel like, I don'tknow, like for someone just
starting, versus someone kind ofin it a little bit?
Speaker 3 (45:25):
At what point do you need a manager?
Do you need a manager?
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (45:29):
Yeah, great question.
So I have a manager for writingand directing really all things
, but those are the twopositions that he's focused on
hustling to get work for me.
His name's James Smith fromAaron Kogan management, and I
will start with saying thatagain.
(45:52):
It's another situation where Ithink people get into and
they're like, oh, I have amanager, he's going to go get me
on an episode of, I don't know,stranger Things or something
like that, right, I don't knowwhy that's the next thing.
I'm just trying to think of thebiggest thing in Hollywood,
right Like that's where people'sminds are at Like oh, I can
(46:15):
direct an episode of thatbecause, you know, I don't know,
I love the Goonies, so I can dothat.
Speaker 1 (46:20):
That's the perfect fit.
Yeah, Right.
Speaker 2 (46:22):
So I'm entitled to that.
No, no, no, no and so, but justthe idea that, like they're
going to run around and hustleand they and and they do, but
the reality of trying to get youon a project or get you work,
um, it's the same thing likewith a distributor, it's it's a
partnership at the beginning.
Now, once you, you hit it big,it's a different story.
(46:45):
Right then you're kind of likefielding.
You might be fielding offers atthat point, but we're talking
that's like less than onepercent of what people are
dealing with.
Like you're going to be more inthat middle range where you
have some stuff to show, butyou're working with them to try
to find some sort of brandingfor yourself.
If you will, my right at thispoint, my biggest relationship
(47:09):
with him is us just dissectingscripts, reading scripts, you
know, starting a dialogue onideas, and it's a support system
too.
Like you know, it's I.
I find the script that I like,that someone else wrote, or I
have an idea, I can bounce itoff of him.
He's very personable that wayand that's that's where the
(47:33):
value is, is having anotherpartner that's helping you, but
you got to help him to help you,so or help her to help you, and
so that's you know.
Go into it with the rightmindset that you're building
something together and then it'sgoing to take off.
When it takes off, but they'renot.
(47:56):
Their job is not to go out andget stuff for you, because it's
just not realistic.
The best they can do isprobably get you some meetings
and but you got to build yourown career and they're there to
assist you.
Speaker 3 (48:08):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (48:09):
Yeah, I love that.
I think that, as we've beengoing down this road, that's
something I've been feelingwhich is just this like
sometimes I get this alonefeeling, even though we do this
together, even for two people.
Film is a big machine.
It's big, and sometimes youjust need to bring partners on
board, and sometimes we're.
(48:29):
It's a balance between being um, independent and thrifty and
wise, but then, on the flip side, being um, between being
independent and thrifty and wisebut then on the flip side,
being sort of abundantly mindedand collaborative and trusting,
bringing people into that circle, because when you find the
right people, they can add somuch value.
(48:50):
So I love that you're sayinglike look, this is just someone,
so that you're not doing thisalone all the time, like you
have someone to talk to aboutscripts or you might have
someone to help you managemeetings.
That alone is what that wouldbe very valuable.
So I can, I can see that value.
I appreciate that perspective.
Speaker 3 (49:07):
Financially, is it like a, like an agent, where
they take a percentage, or is itsomething that you pay him to
help you?
A?
Speaker 2 (49:14):
certain amount.
Yeah, depends on whateversituation that you work out with
your uh, you know, with yourrep, but, like with us, it's, it
is a percentage, but it'sessentially if he lands a
project, yeah, or you know, butit's, it's, it's up for debate
because he helped out withgetting us resources for rally
(49:38):
caps and so it's sort of thisunofficial hey, if we do well
with rally caps, we'll take careof you, that kind of thing.
But for the most part he'scontracted to get percentages of
work that he finds for me.
But it's loose, you know, it's,it's it, it.
It really depends on thesituation and there's a matter
(49:59):
of trust between us that, um,you know that, that, that we
know that doesn't have to belike written in the law, um, but
but yeah, man, film is theprobably the most, probably the
most collaborative art form,right, like events, that those
(50:21):
kind of things, like it takes avillage, and so if you, you have
to really bring in people intothe fold, that you trust.
I know we're also running outof time too and I was hoping
that we touch on a little bit on, um, uh, great questions, by
the way.
But yeah, kathy, and Idefinitely would love to talk to
(50:43):
them about SAG, if, if, there'stime if there's time after your
question.
that's a big one.
I'm just thinking about likethe biggest pitfall that we ran
into with this project.
Um, uh, and I don't I don'tknow if we want to jump into it
now or so I know that maybe alot of your audience is doing
(51:07):
micro project, micro, microbudget projects, but attaching a
star or attaching a star name,even for these small projects,
now you might get, uh, you know,a famous person to read your
script and be in it and that'stremendous.
And that's basically whathappened to us.
Like I had a producer friend,she, that I brought the script
(51:29):
to and she had for the mom andpop roles.
She was like, oh, I know thesepeople, I'm going to bring it to
them, mom and pop roles.
She was like, oh, I know thesepeople, I'm going to bring it to
them.
It didn't ultimately work out,but she came back to me and she
said make a wish list.
I went to IMDB.
The top of the list was JuddHirsch and Amy Smart.
This was also I know that we'renot getting A-lister, a-lister,
(51:57):
a-lister, but this was the topof my priority list based on the
resources that I think we couldget um, and also great fit for
the roles and luckily we got thescript to their manager, made
the offer and they both accepted.
And so we're talking about juddhirsch, who's an academy award
nominee um, he was working onthe spielberg film a week after
rally caps.
Amy smart is a legend in herown right and that's all great.
(52:17):
And I think that people think,oh, you make the offer, the
agent takes it to them.
And this is after we raised themoney already.
So we had them.
You have to have the money inplace to actually offer them.
Like, if you just come, ifyou're just trying to like get
someone attached, without money,it's not going to happen unless
that actor is like your bestfriend and and then they'll
attach themselves and allow youto use their name to raise money
(52:39):
.
But you can't do that age.
Yeah, you're going to run intoa wall if you're just trying to
uh, cold email the agent.
They're just going to ask youhow much you're offering and
what are the dates, and then youhave to put that money in
escrow and prove that you haveit.
So we did have that money and wedid offer it to them and we
thought we were golden or likeokay, we got, we got these
(53:00):
actors and and essentially thatwas true.
But the biggest pitfall that weran into was not registering the
movie with screen actors guildand they will have the power to
stop your film.
Yeah, don't have your you knowwhat together.
And at that point Kathy was noton the project, that she was
(53:22):
not planning to produce this,but she had to come on board at
that point and thank God and wealso had we got a line producer
that they knew what they weredoing and they pulled it all
together.
But we we had basically madethe offer with the budget and
all the our entire budget wentto them and we didn't think
about registering this, themovie, with Screen Actors Guild.
(53:45):
And we came within like a weekof of shooting the movie and
they were like this is not goingto be a go project and what
that means is like all thatmoney you put into escrow for
the actors, like that's going togo to them and they can take
that money if they want, whetheryou get your project or not.
Speaker 4 (54:06):
So you have to be depending on the contract.
But yes, yeah, so is it like a?
Speaker 1 (54:10):
was it like a pay or play deal, kind of thing?
Speaker 2 (54:14):
Yeah, you're only going to get pretty much player
pay.
Speaker 4 (54:19):
Yeah, I mean, that's one, that's pretty much one of
the challenges that you're goingto face with talent.
That, unfortunately, isbusiness for them.
It's not like oh, I love yourproject.
Speaker 2 (54:30):
For their representatives.
Speaker 4 (54:31):
For the representative, because the
actors are completely different.
No, no no, they're yeah, butyes, I mean and and one thing
that I want to emphasize a lotwhen you deal with SAG, it's so
much paperwork Like it's insanepaperwork that literally I mean
they've asked months in advanceto start doing the paperwork.
Speaker 2 (54:53):
Six to eight weeks is when you should start the
paperwork for SAG.
Wow, we started us, we, and wegot lucky.
So I don't want to put this outthere.
Like you know, you can come inthe 11th hour and it'll happen
Like, don't live on that becauseyou'll lose everything.
But we started like two weeksahead and we we lucked out.
But we also did have ourpaperwork and for the most part,
(55:16):
together too.
We got people to sign contractsand all that stuff.
But yes, six to eight weeks outis when you should start
registering with Screen ActorsGuild and also be prepared to
pay what they call a bond, whichdon't quote me on this, because
this is not exactly how itworks.
You'd have to talk to a SAGaffiliate, but it's.
(55:39):
It's essentially works like adeposit, where they take a
portion of your budget to makesure that their actors don't get
screwed over, cause you could,like promise the world to their
actors, and this is whathappened in the past and why
there's guilds in the firstplace.
You know filmmakers andproducers will promise something
to the actor and they never getpaid.
So that that bond, that deposit, is a big chunk of your budget
(56:03):
and you have to pay that.
Speaker 3 (56:04):
you have to put it into escrow right away and
that's on top of what you'vealready put in the escrow for
the actor.
Speaker 2 (56:11):
Yeah, exactly so in our case, right?
So I don't want to give you theexact numbers that we gave, but
I'm just going to give anarbitrary number just for the
sake of this conversation, allright.
So let's say you, your budgetis one hundred thousand dollars,
yeah, and you've got a majorstar, that's like I want to be
(56:33):
in it.
I, I'm not going to do it forless than 75 000.
I just can't.
My agents won't let me do it,right, so that 75 000 goes into
escrow, right, and that is gone,and so, like this is sort of
what we were dealing with.
We're like, oh, we got themoney to pay them, we're good.
But once that money went andlike we have 25 000 left over
(56:58):
and sag is like looking at ourbudget and they're like, okay,
well, our bond is 50 000 for forthis movie.
Right again, these are notnumbers that would actually work
out the way.
Speaker 4 (57:09):
Again, I'm just giving you like a simplified
yeah yeah, yeah, but justremember that as soon as, as
soon as you have sag actors,everybody else becomes sag even
if they're not in your past whatif it's a right?
Speaker 1 (57:24):
to work state does that make a difference?
Speaker 3 (57:26):
because then technically you can work on a
sag production.
If you're non-union, does thatmean you still?
Speaker 4 (57:31):
yes, you can, but you have a limited amount of people
that you can bring to a project.
Speaker 2 (57:38):
But a lot of our kids were not SAG and they have to
pay them SAG minimum and that'severyone who has a speaking line
, even if it's like someone inthe crowd that's like, yeah, go,
team right, or hey, good job,or like just hey, right, if
they're speaking something, theyare automatically sag,
(58:00):
automatically sag, um, so yeah,so yeah.
Anyway, going back to what I wassaying, like you know, we, you
know 25 000 left in the budgetand sag asked you know, for this
you have to put that in escrow,you have to to start raising
money, and that's what happenedwith us.
We were like, oh, my goodness,but it was much more than that,
(58:24):
and so we were in this holewhere we had to, like, raise the
money just to get it shot andwe shot out our stars in a
couple of days and then we hadto raise money to make the rest
of the film.
So everything you see with juddand amy, we shot in like a
three-day span.
Um, we consolidated to just thehouse scenes, but it still is
(58:46):
27 pages of script in three days, which is a lot yeah, that
blows my flipping mind.
Speaker 1 (58:54):
You guys got 27, 27 pages of script in three days.
Speaker 2 (58:59):
Yes, and we were not.
We were not like a runninggunning type where it's just,
like you know, we're runningaround outside with just one
camera and we can just usenatural lighting.
It was all indoors.
You're dealing with two starsthat would and let me just make
it clear, they're phenomenalBoth Amy and Judd and their
attitudes were great um,literally never really an issue
(59:22):
at all.
They were.
They knew the kind of projectwe were making and they were
just there to compliment, so wegot extremely lucky.
That being said, you can't just,like you know, throw juddd
Hirsch on set and start rolling,and it's not like he's not your
brother or your uncle whoagreed to be in the film.
(59:43):
You can kind of like, use themas a pawn piece and no actor,
even if they are your uncle andbrother.
You should not treat them likea pawn piece.
But there's not.
You know they need to have,like their honey you know what
we call honey wagons, which arejust their trailers and all of
that stuff.
Like, they need, you know, theyneed time, they need to work
(01:00:05):
with them, they need to get intotheir roles and so, yeah, it
was crazy, very crazy, but thereason we're talking about it
now is to help people beprepared.
Um, if you are prepared andthere's a lot of like,
especially with directors, thatthey show up on set and they're
super nervous and they're likeyou know, there's, uh, a lot of
(01:00:29):
anxiety and that's going tohappen anyway.
But if you come prepared,there's really nothing to worry
about.
You should be able to go outthere and play in your sandbox,
watch everything.
But you've got to do the workbeforehand to set the stage, um,
because if not, you're puttingyour, you're throwing yourself
out through the wolves and thatis where I feel that bring,
(01:00:50):
building a team is so important.
Speaker 4 (01:00:52):
Like everybody wants to be the director, the producer
, the writer, the blah, blah,like you know what.
Uh, I came on board because Isaw that I wanted lee to be the
creative.
I didn't want him to deal withpaperwork, I didn't want him to
be just he, although he's aproducer in the film, I didn't
want him to be a producer hatlike no, I mean, bring people
(01:01:12):
that you trust, that likeliterally delegate.
The learning how to delegate isimportant, but at the same time
, I know it's kind of scarybecause you need to build a team
that you trust and that is thebiggest challenge in this
industry Building a team thatyou can literally say I trust
you.
There's a lot of opencommunication, there's no egos
(01:01:33):
and unfortunately we're in afield, in an industry, where
egos are everywhere and dealingwith personalities.
Learning how to deal withpersonalities as a producer,
that is your job.
You need to.
Sometimes you're going to be atherapist, sometimes you're
going to be a mom, sometimesyou're going to be the I don't
know makeup person.
Like you know, it's like youwill have to be there for people
(01:01:54):
that sometimes you're like Iwas not expecting to be that.
But as a producer,unfortunately, we need to learn
how to deal with personalitiesand when.
Sometimes you have theopportunity to build your team
which is good for filmindependent, but when we started
doing these kind of projects,sometimes you bring people on
board that you were not meant toto bring, and there's
(01:02:17):
personalities that you need tolearn how to deal with and
sometimes it's not your bestfriend and you're not going to
be happy about it, and sometimesyou're going to be a bad cop
because you have to say no toeverything and they're going to
yell at you.
So it's learning as a producer,building that skill of
communication with differentkinds of personalities, and also
(01:02:39):
learning that it's not yourfault, learning that this is
business, not taking it sopersonal like building a thick
skin.
Basically and I alwaysrecommend open communication Try
to be as honest and say, hey,can we talk about this?
And if there's a lot ofroughness, just like, cool down
(01:03:02):
and just come back when you guyscan.
But that is the biggest thingthat I would recommend everybody
Just make sure that if you havea small team, build something
you love, speak with people,that that empowers you not to
put you down and if you can'tbuild a team, and it's just that
(01:03:23):
it happened learn how to, tolearn with um, deal with
personalities yeah, yeah, I willsay too as a on the creative
end.
Speaker 2 (01:03:35):
Uh, I think the the optics of this business is and I
will call it a business becauseit is a freaking business show
business Business is two moresyllables or another syllable
than show, so it's more businessthan it is showtime.
The optics are people look at,you know, filmmakers as artists,
(01:03:56):
right, that they're just likehaving fun, they're on set and,
like you know, wearing somehippie gown and just being
creative.
Well, look, let me tell youthis like and you guys know it's
like there is creativity.
A lot of that is involved, butthe stream of consciousness
should be for your writing.
A lot of that is involved, butthe stream of consciousness
(01:04:19):
should be for your writing.
But 99% of making a film isbusiness and logistics.
Even when you're doingsomething that's entirely small,
because you're figuring outwhat the location is, you're
figuring out what time theactors have to come.
So to Kathy's point definitelybuild a team that focuses on
this and understand that this is.
You know, I don't care whatyour judgmental uncle or aunt
(01:04:41):
are saying about your career.
You are doing as much businessin this art form than they're
doing in their business,probably more right, because you
are organizing a collective andyou have to be prepared and you
have to have a team and youhave to have people that are on
top of their stuff.
And, yes, the creative is anaspect of it and that's what
(01:05:04):
you're going to see on screen,but to get that stuff on screen
is, it's mostly business.
So start learning that aspectas soon as you can.
Speaker 3 (01:05:13):
We're essentially serial entrepreneurs because
you're starting, with each movie, a new business from the ground
up you know.
Speaker 1 (01:05:19):
So it's just non-stop all product and brand and sales
and distribution.
Speaker 3 (01:05:25):
It's so much mention managing the ones you already
started are everything onestartup company after an x right
?
Speaker 2 (01:05:31):
yeah, it is yeah yeah it's wild.
Speaker 1 (01:05:33):
Well, you guys, this has, like I got kind of quiet
there because I just felt like Iwas learning so much.
You guys have a great depth ofknowledge and experience and,
honestly, I'm just supergrateful for your transparency
and getting into some of thenitty gritty.
This it's like a nitty grittythat people don't want to get
into for some reason or another,but especially as independent
(01:05:56):
artists don't want to get intofor some reason or another, but
especially as independentartists, being that transparent
with each other I think is goingto help us to survive in what
is becoming the new movieindustry, which is this intense
democratization which I feellike is going to lead to the
downfall of the way thingspeople are used to doing things.
It really is the downfall of theway things people are used to
(01:06:16):
doing things.
It really is the downfall ofwhat people expect.
We hear old timers telling usyou know, just do X, y and Z,
and then people give you a checkand then you make this movie
and then it goes out and thenthis is the person who takes it
away for you and it's like well,actually, because we have the
luxury of needing very fewpeople's permission to make
movies.
Now it comes with this massiveresponsibility of having to do
(01:06:40):
all the jobs that you guys wentinto detail on in this episode,
and so getting into the grittydetails of how to do those jobs
is essential, so I really amjust grateful for that.
Speaker 3 (01:06:48):
Yeah, thank you so much.
You've been so generous withyour time and your knowledge and
I just want to finish by askingwhere can we send people to see
your work and what's next onthe horizon?
Speaker 2 (01:07:01):
the rally caps is on peacock, so just go there and if
you don't have, if you,obviously, if you have peacock,
you can watch it for free.
Uh, if you don't, you can stillwatch it for free.
Get a free trial and watch onthat.
We're really, we're directeverybody and for some reason
you can't.
It is on Apple TV and Amazonand for rent.
(01:07:23):
But I would guess, go toPeacock, go to Peacock yeah, but
for to contact us it'scrystalrockentertainmentcom.
Speaker 4 (01:07:32):
okay.
Speaker 3 (01:07:33):
so crystalrockentertainmentcom okay
we'll put that in the shownotes and get the spelling for
you, peacock and Crystal RockEntertainment dot com.
Go check out Rally Caps.
Speaker 1 (01:07:42):
Check out Rally Caps.
Some great performances.
I wish we could go more intodetail and to cast honestly than
we did, but I will just saythat not just your two names,
Judd and Amy, which were great,the whole cast.
I was really impressed by thework that had to have gone in to
cast that many people and thatmany children.
So just a lot to be proud ofyou guys.
(01:08:03):
So thanks so much for being onthe show and thanks for making
Rally Camps.
Speaker 4 (01:08:07):
Thank you.
Thank you for your time and yes, and if you have any questions,
we're here for you guys.
I mean, the idea is to help thecommunity somehow somewhere too
late, you know, um, and it'svice versa we learn from you
guys, you learn from us.
It's not just that because wemade it uh, we made more movies
than you guys.
You guys have also yourknowledge that probably
(01:08:29):
sometimes we can't like talkabout it and say like, oh, I
learned from that, you know, soshe's learning from each other.
Speaker 2 (01:08:37):
It's a community and, uh, we thank you guys, uh, for
your contribution, for gettingthis knowledge out there.
Um, because it's superimportant, because there's a
really weird dichotomy going onwith filmmakers right now, where
it's like I feel like what youjust said a second ago, ken,
about how accessible and, youknow, not easy it is to make,
(01:09:02):
but it's available everythingthat we need to make a film.
But it's never been harder,right, like than 10, 15 years
ago when you really needed to,even 20 years ago, like more.
So you needed a lot ofresources to get a movie made,
you had to shoot on film orwhatever it was.
It's accessible, but I stillthink filmmakers come with the
(01:09:26):
mentality of like the 1995Sundance Film Festival method,
where you're going to make yourbig film, it's going to get
picked up by some huge company,you're going to get a three
picture deal, and it's so weirdbecause that, like that, is gone
.
Like I don't even know.
I guess Sundance still has somebig payouts.
But that's what everyone'sfilmmaker dream is Like.
(01:09:47):
They go to film school and Idon't know what they're teaching
there, but like, but it's.
It's very strange, but it's acompletely new world.
And you know, kathy and I are,you know we usually watch the
Academy Awards.
We actually didn't watch themthis year.
Like I haven't watched any ofthe big films, and that's not to
say that like that's not stillbig and epic.
(01:10:10):
It's just how we're consuming.
Content is completely different.
Movies are different than theywere 15 years ago.
And so, yeah, get with theprogram.
Right, there's a lot moreopportunities.
It's just a lot different thanit was.
So you got to get over thisidea of being like the next
Tarantino and stuff, becauseTarantino did it in a different
(01:10:32):
era.
So, no, thank you, you guys,and I also congratulate you guys
on your success at science.
It was so nice to to connectand hey, like kathy said,
anytime we're here for you guyswould love to do it again.
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