September 19, 2022 • 23 mins
Which crew members are most essential for your film, and which ones can you do without for your first feature? Who can manage multiple roles without being overwhelmed? If you're creating a film with a low/no budget range, then this podcast episode is for you.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Anna (00:27):
Hi, and welcome to the podcast today.
Today.
We want to talk about curing afeature film.
On a no or low budget productionnow.
People talk about no budgetproductions.
And that doesn't meannecessarily that it doesn't have
any money behind it.
But really low budgetproductions will often be called
(00:48):
a no budget production.
And that's basically just downto the bare basics skeleton of
what To make And when you watchmovies and you see all the
credits and you see tons andtons of people, or maybe you've
helped out on a big set.
For Netflix or paramount or someother big company.
(01:08):
And How many people there are onset and each department doing so
many different It can feelreally overwhelming.
And I get a lot of people.
Entering into the program andfeeling like, where am I going
to get all these people and allthis help and what do I actually
need?
What role do I want to play?
What is even the differencebetween a producer and a
(01:30):
director.
So we're just going to break itdown in the simplest way we can
today
Kent (01:34):
for you.
So I think that most of us go tohigh school believing myths.
And I'm going to step away fromfilm for a second.
And there's all these like weirdmyths that happen, which is
like, everyone is doing drugs.
You know what I mean?
Like, it feels like everyone isdoing something or whatever, and
it's just super not true.
In fact, usually the majority ofpeople are not doing the things
we think.
(01:55):
Quote, unquote, everyone isdoing.
And I think that that's reallytrue in film.
And so.
you know, Anna mentioned beingon set for like big motion
pictures.
Now, some of you.
I may have had that experience.
And some of you may have not hadthat experience, but we're
coming from this from like a.
You know, you may have extra ona set or like PA on a set and a
lot of us in Georgia and LA andNew York.
(02:16):
well, we'll pick up gigs likethat.
Right.
So it's pretty normal that we'dwalk on a big movie, but it's
not like we have a big job andit's not like those movies are
going to get us in a positionto.
Direct a film or, or make a filmin whatever capacity.
You know, Equals your dream.
But, I say that right up front,because it can be really
deceptive to think that allthese people have loads of money
(02:37):
and oodles of cash.
And what I've realized is thateven movies that are like full
on union with A-listers.
Sometimes, especially art films.
I look very different from.
Even like a, like a Nickelodeonshow or something like that, you
know, where you might see tonsand tons of trucks for like a
straight to TV release, kind 60minute sort of quote, unquote
(03:01):
feature films made for kids.
And you're like, wow, they'rejust dumping money on this.
And that's the kind offilmmaking that happens.
That's more of like a.
Like it's a job for everyonethat you can just tell when
you're on set that there's not abig load of passion behind this
project and that's okay.
I mean, it's good work foreveryone involved and I'm not
saying anything bad about Butthere's other filmmaking that's
(03:23):
like deeply passionate.
And usually it's these peoplethat are.
trying to make something happenbecause they're just have their
heart in it.
And I'm thinking of films.
I think Denzel Washington, forexample, is an a list actor
who's really big and he's onmovies that are unionized
through the roof.
Right?
Sag.
you know, the DP is going to beASC and the director is going to
(03:44):
be DGA.
And yet.
when you get on set, I guaranteeyou that, that film.
set on fences felt like an indiefilm.
I mean, in some ways it mightmeet that indie definition, but
that's a very ambiguous term.
But my point is, it probablyfelt like a very small team and
they shot on film, but they shothim like this tiny shotgun
(04:05):
Americana house that was like,period.
And.
They didn't even have room forlights to really fit between the
houses because the houses werebuilt so close together and they
weren't willing to just build aset, you know, As you can
imagine.
There's not that many peoplethat could fit in that house.
And there's not that many lightsthat could Between the houses.
And so it's going to feel alittle tight and small and maybe
not that crazy.
(04:25):
Like we would imagine being onthe set of like a Marvel movie,
for example, And that's just oneexample and we might give some
more examples from films we'vemade, worked on, or even just
studied and looked at.
But there's, There's crew thatis absolutely essential.
And there's crew that isn'tessential.
And that all just comes down towhat kind of movie you're
making.
(04:46):
And, there are people makingmovies out of their own basement
with green screens and there'speople making movies in their
backyards and.
In their hometowns and there'speople flying to destinations
with crews of three, you know,Every story is different.
So it's just going to demanddifferent logistics.
But.
If you're trying to make a firstfeature and you're trying to do
(05:06):
a resource filmmaking style.
You can do an incredible.
Amount of storytelling.
Beautiful imagery.
You can execute.
Hollywood level imagery andHollywood level sound.
And excellent acting that canhold up to almost anyone else's.
And it can definitely punchmillions of dollars above its
(05:27):
weight class.
For little to no money.
And I really believe Yeah,
Anna (05:32):
and I think.
The basic thing you'll want tounderstand is that there are
many jobs to be done.
And as you start to break downyour script and look Okay.
Someone has to be in charge ofgetting this prop here and
someone has to make sure thatthis location is secured.
You're going to want to dividethat up among you and your
fellow teammates.
(05:54):
And so it can be helpful tounderstand departments and what
each department does.
So that you could divide it upnow that's not essential.
It could just be that you'relike Peter Jackson and his
friends and they just, you know,assign it out.
And who cares?
What you call.
The role, it's just, Hey, canyou do that?
And I'll do this.
And we just split up the work.
You can do it that informally.
(06:15):
but it is helpful to understanddepartments and maybe have
someone who's in charge of art.
For example, that may includecostume makeup props.
Set dressing.
It could be all of those thingsand on a super low budget.
First feature film.
Typically.
You'll want at least one personper department at least.
(06:38):
And it'd be really nice if youcan get some extra help, like an
assistant or a PA.
Per each department.
I'd say there's some essentialdepartments.
Camera.
Directorial.
Sound.
And art are probably the oneswhere it'd be really nice to
have a PA maybe dedicated toeach of those departments to be
(06:59):
able to run errands and helpbring stuff.
And just, And if you're adirector.
And you need a D, but again, Isay that and yet you don't
really need it.
And with our first film, Idirected and IAD.
And we didn't have an ID and Ididn't have any assistance.
And I was also a producer.
And my husband was deeping andhe had one PA helping him out.
(07:21):
And Claire white was our artproduction designer and she did
all of it.
She did.
Costume makeup set, dressing,running errands on her own,
borrowing her car.
You know, she just covered allof that.
Props.
So it can be a very small teamand you can make it work.
(07:41):
It just requires a lot morepreparation.
And coordination.
To be able to pull that
Kent (07:47):
off.
Yeah.
And we've in past episodes goneover like named off our crew and
explained what they did, but itranged from day to day from
anywhere between my wife and I.
Right.
Anna and I, and the actors andwhichever actors were there,
which some days were one of ourkids.
There were days that that was,that was it.
It was Anna Kenton, one kid, youknow, and, and then there were
(08:10):
days where it was, you Clairewas there on And chastity was
either acting or doing somethingto do with locations or casting
or payroll, or she was kind ofthis line producer sort of thing
hybrid.
Anna (08:24):
Prior to serial department, but
Kent (08:26):
yeah, but you can see how, like it got fluid and you kind
of just knew what work needed toget done.
And we don't.
Recommend doing everything theway we've done it in all of our
films, especially our firstfilm, because.
It was very, very stressful, butI don't think it was stressful
because of the number of crew wehad.
I actually think that if we wentback and did that film.
(08:47):
Let's say the same story withthe same logistical weight with
that exact same crew.
I think we would know exactlywhat we would need to do
differently.
And so the knowledge is reallymore valuable than.
Pumping or injecting the crewwas just bodies, you know?
but I would say also that,talent goes a lot farther than
(09:07):
just bodies as well.
So you can get extras or you canget PAs and you can just load
the set with people withuntrained people, with students,
with high schoolers or collegekids, like, you know, like
freshmen in college, people whoare totally willing to work for
free, who.
Our blessed by the opportunity.
I'm not talking about likepushing people to do stuff
against their wills for no moneyand underpaying people, but
(09:29):
there are people who want.
To be on a set.
That's an artistic, intimate.
passion-driven experience wherethey get lots of experience and
they get to be close with thedirector.
That's very valuable for peoplewho are still learning.
And so I think it's totally.
A good idea to be Frank, toreach out on whatever Facebook
(09:50):
or other groups and say, Hey,we've got this film going on.
We need PA's.
And to get a few bodies on set,but a few very competent,
talented, passionate people on ateam can go.
Really really far.
And I, and I want to use anexample.
Of, a movie that actually had a$5 million Which you might
think, why would you do that?
(10:10):
Why would you bring that up asan example?
And I'm just going to show youwhere that budget went.
the movie I'm talking about isno man land.
which was 20, 21 best picturewon.
Best director won best actress.
I thought it was exquisite.
And, And you might look at itand think, well, that actually
is kind of a bigger crew.
Well, when you get back, whenyou get to the bottom on HMDB of
their extremely long credits forcast.
(10:33):
Which are really long becausethey, they credit every extra
it's actually a decently smallMost of them.
We're social actors.
They were portraying themselves.
They weren't professionalactors.
and then there's this producerlist, which we'll skip.
There's a few names on there,including the director of PR and
actress.
Frances McDormand enclosure.
(10:54):
but I'm skipping the producercredits because those people
could have been added asproducers on the backend.
There was definitely some,production company and studios
supporting this film.
those names could be coming froma lot of different places.
but as far as who did the workof producing this movie was
probably a majority.
Closure and Frances McDormandand there might be one or two
(11:15):
others.
And then cinematography was byJoshua James Richards.
He had.
I think one, a C.
If I'm not mistaken.
Yeah.
He had one AC and a gaffer.
And there was a few other peoplewho I think it looks like they
may be de played.
Oh no.
He had a second AC I'm justreading this off.
(11:38):
I looked over it before and then
Anna (11:39):
we'll and I know we've seen them talk about.
The making of this film behindthe scenes footage, where close
out, talks about her team.
And how small it was.
And that it was surprising tosome of them that this was a big
budget film with a big actress,because I mean, big budget, it
Kent (11:56):
felt.
For an indie person.
Low low budget
Anna (12:00):
figure budget than any of us are going to have on our
first
Kent (12:02):
film.
Cohen's and the that's a verylow budget yet.
Anna (12:06):
Yeah.
But for a$5 million film.
It was a very small team.
And it's a passionate project.
And I think that works well withpassion projects, where there's
a very strong vision.
That's easier to communicate toa smaller team when you have
tons and tons of people.
That can get lost.
(12:26):
And a lot of things can fallbetween the cracks or.
Get lost in translation becauseyou're going to relay.
What you're hoping for is ifyou're a director.
For the film and then eachdepartment, head's going to
relay that to their team.
And then they're going tointerpret that how they will and
find a way to make it happen.
And it can get kind of watereddown in all of that.
(12:47):
Lost in translation stuff.
And so I think really smallteams are good for people who
have a really strong vision andare trying to communicate
something very specific and wantto be very involved in the
creative process.
And that's something I want totouch on today too, is just the
difference between a producerand a director.
(13:07):
And what role you're going toplay.
In your first feature film,because a lot of people come
into our feature filmmakeracademy.
And they know they want to becreatively involved in the
project.
They know they want someownership on this project.
They're probably not a good fit.
For our program, if they don'tfeel that way.
But they might not know exactlyhow or where they fit in.
(13:29):
And sometimes you do, sometimesyou come in and, you know, I
want to be an actor.
I want to be a DP.
And I'm just going to make ithappen for myself by making a
feature film.
And that's fine if you knowexactly what your position is,
you want to do.
Great.
Add producer to.
calm a producer to that list andyou're ready to go.
And that can work really well.
(13:49):
But the producer is the one whohas the creative ownership.
Is kind of at the top of thepyramid.
Who makes the film happen?
Who secures the financing, whodecides who to hire in all the
other positions, securing the
Kent (14:03):
financing.
To Anna's point is definitelyusually the producer's job, but
that can also be.
anybody right?
Anna (14:11):
Often.
You'll see a director produceror an actor producer, someone
who yeah.
Maybe is involved in thatprocess, but that's just a
matter of a means to an end.
Like I want to produce to getthis to happen so that I can DP
it because I really want to do Pfor example.
But definitely.
If you're going through theprogram.
You're going to be a producer ina F in a way on this film,
(14:34):
you're going to be picking yourteam and putting this together
And so you don't have to knoweverything about filmmaking to
do this, to find team memberswho do, who are experienced, who
can do their jobs.
And even they don't have to benecessarily super experienced.
They might be just friends andfamily who are willing to help
out and want to some positionswill matter more than others.
(14:56):
Um, how much experience theyhave.
But.
Or is hired by the producer, forexample.
So if you are producing aproject.
And you don't want to direct it.
You want to do a different role.
Then you're going to be hiringout a director.
But you still are the top of thepyramid, so to speak, you can
decide to fire that tractor, ifyou don't like where they're
(15:16):
going with the vision.
Hopefully.
You try to figure that out earlyon and work together.
And.
And get clear on it.
But then the director is the onewho's going to work with all the
other department heads.
To create a unity of vision andmake sure that everyone's on the
same page, everyone's workingtowards the same vision and not
detracting from that.
Kent (15:36):
Yeah.
And so.
There are different kinds ofpeople making these films.
So Anna is describing someonewho maybe let's say that you
have a script or an idea.
And you're materializing thatand you just want it to exist.
You may or may not want todirect it.
And by that, I mean, you may, oryou may not, right?
Like, I'm not saying that tolike deter you from directing,
(15:58):
you might just want to.
jump on that you might havesomeone, you know, who's willing
to do that.
You may or may not have skillsin camera.
You know, that you feelconfident I'll be honest I think
it's really interesting to lookat the people who.
There are some filmmakers whojust.
They take everything seriouslyenough that they can reduce the
crew size by a significantamount because they, and the
(16:20):
very few people working withthem do almost everything.
And.
And there's people who producethe right.
They DP it, they edit it.
So I'll point out again.
The editor on nomad land was thedirector, the production
designer.
Was the DP.
Like those are rare to see thosejobs.
(16:42):
Smushed together, directoreditor, not as rare, but those
are big jobs to.
Those are big hats to wear.
You know, to put on the sameperson.
And, and yet, you know, you willget even big directors that will
do that, but those big directorswill often like these writer,
director, actors, for example,Sometimes those movies are so
(17:02):
well-funded that they have a tonof But I've also seen low budget
films.
DP writer, producer, director,actor.
Editor, like did everything, youknow, and they look good, acting
solid and.
You know, thunder road is agreat, case study, which was a
short film that went to Sundanceadapted into a feature film,
(17:25):
which won south by Southwest, afew years afterwards.
And.
I'm the director of thunderroad.
Said when you realize, or whenyou're willing to do everything
yourself.
You know that you're ready tomake your first feature.
he said something along thoselines.
I would push back against thatbecause I don't think it's
necessary that you do everythingyourself and it is possible to
(17:48):
find and get It's okay to hirehelp, and it doesn't have to
cost very much But, but I likethe attitude that like, You
know, Aye.
Felt confident in my ability onour first feature to shoot it to
DP.
It.
I don't think I'm the greatestDP in the planet.
I'm not, I'm no deacons, youknow?
(18:10):
but I knew I could do.
I could do it justice and Icould do much better than anyone
else I could afford to hire.
With the money I had.
And, and I knew people who wereway better than me personally,
but they would all cost more.
You know, and so I just did itmyself and I'm really glad that
I did.
Now.
I also produced.
(18:31):
On that side of things I neverproduced.
I hadn't produced a short film.
I guess I technically had, but Imean, not really.
I hadn't really taken a personalproject and grabbed the bull by
its horns.
And so there's sometimes roleswhere we have to say, can I step
into this and do it myself?
that's something you're going tohave to judge for yourself.
What are you willing to take on?
What are you willing to try forthe first time?
(18:53):
And.
That's it, no disrespect to themedium, you know, sometimes I
think we treat the medium, likeit's too holy, like, oh no, you
have no right to act or you haveno right to direct.
Or you have, you haven't donethat before.
That's a real craft and you haveto hone it.
And, it just depends on yourconfidence and how much work
you're really you're willing todo.
In the preparation phase.
And I think that maybe laststatement is the most important
(19:15):
is that.
If I could go back, we've talkedabout this many times.
The prep is the most important.
So if I'm going to produce, I'mgoing to produce.
The whole thing deeply preparedbeforehand.
If i'm going to dp for the firsttime i'm going to really
practice and prepare and test.
So I feel like.
Deep preparation on the frontend is really, what's going to
(19:37):
enable you to do roles that youmight not otherwise be qualified
And any of us can do that.
We can all prepare and put a lotof time into something,
especially a low to no budget,passion project.
So I think that that.
It's something we might need tobe willing to do is roll up our
sleeves, learn new things and,get passionate, you know, and,
(20:00):
and passion fuels a lot oflearning.
And I, and I, and it's justpossible.
I don't, I don't think weshould.
Anna (20:06):
Give ourselves that negative self-talk that tells us
that we can't do it.
Yeah.
And especially if this is a rolethat you really want to pursue
in your life.
You're going to have to learn itby doing it at some point.
So go Do it.
The worst thing that can happenis that the movie fails and you
learn a ton.
And the next time, you know, somuch better.
So it's still completely worthit to pursue the role that you
(20:29):
want to do as a career andpractice that.
and don't think that becauseother films have so many credits
and seem like there's so manypeople.
That it has to be that waybecause most big directors
started out with just theirfriends and family and a few key
positions.
And you can definitely make thatwork.
Kent (20:49):
I also would just push back against the phrase itself
of the film could fail or.
What does that even mean?
You know, it's like failure.
I mean, you can give up on Butjust decide not to do that, run
with it all the way through theentire process of pre production
production, post production.
Marketing getting a sales agent,putting it through festivals.
(21:11):
If that doesn't go very well,try some other way to sell I use
it as a calling card, push itout there.
You know, there's alwayssomething.
Out of it at least.
Yeah.
There's always something you cando to just mine.
As much out of the film.
As an asset for your career andfor, and for your bank account
and pocket book and an ROI is,there's a lot you can And just
(21:35):
keep with it.
And the longer you keep with it,the more you're going to learn
from it, which further.
Increases the value of the filmfor you, you know, as learning
experience, if nothing else.
but it's very unlikely that itwould be quote unquote, nothing
else.
Then the learning experience, inmy opinion, if you put good
passion Take your time and doyour very best work.
someone's gonna like it.
(21:56):
And that someone might help youget representation at the end of
your first film, it might beenough that people earn, you
know, the film runs a profit, oreven if no one gets easy
distribution, the fact thatyou've made a feature film will
make a difference for yourcareer.
Absolutely.
Worth And good luck.
Thanks for joining us tonightand send us your questions so we
(22:18):
can address them on the nextone.
Thanks.
Bye.
Hi, and welcome to the podcast today.
Today.
We want to talk about curing afeature film.
On a no or low budget productionnow.
People talk about no budgetproductions.
And that doesn't meannecessarily that it doesn't have
any money behind it.
But really low budgetproductions will often be called
(00:48):
a no budget production.
And that's basically just downto the bare basics skeleton of
what To make And when you watchmovies and you see all the
credits and you see tons andtons of people, or maybe you've
helped out on a big set.
For Netflix or paramount or someother big company.
(01:08):
And How many people there are onset and each department doing so
many different It can feelreally overwhelming.
And I get a lot of people.
Entering into the program andfeeling like, where am I going
to get all these people and allthis help and what do I actually
need?
What role do I want to play?
What is even the differencebetween a producer and a
(01:30):
director.
So we're just going to break itdown in the simplest way we can
today
Kent (01:34):
for you.
So I think that most of us go tohigh school believing myths.
And I'm going to step away fromfilm for a second.
And there's all these like weirdmyths that happen, which is
like, everyone is doing drugs.
You know what I mean?
Like, it feels like everyone isdoing something or whatever, and
it's just super not true.
In fact, usually the majority ofpeople are not doing the things
we think.
(01:55):
Quote, unquote, everyone isdoing.
And I think that that's reallytrue in film.
And so.
you know, Anna mentioned beingon set for like big motion
pictures.
Now, some of you.
I may have had that experience.
And some of you may have not hadthat experience, but we're
coming from this from like a.
You know, you may have extra ona set or like PA on a set and a
lot of us in Georgia and LA andNew York.
(02:16):
well, we'll pick up gigs likethat.
Right.
So it's pretty normal that we'dwalk on a big movie, but it's
not like we have a big job andit's not like those movies are
going to get us in a positionto.
Direct a film or, or make a filmin whatever capacity.
You know, Equals your dream.
But, I say that right up front,because it can be really
deceptive to think that allthese people have loads of money
(02:37):
and oodles of cash.
And what I've realized is thateven movies that are like full
on union with A-listers.
Sometimes, especially art films.
I look very different from.
Even like a, like a Nickelodeonshow or something like that, you
know, where you might see tonsand tons of trucks for like a
straight to TV release, kind 60minute sort of quote, unquote
(03:01):
feature films made for kids.
And you're like, wow, they'rejust dumping money on this.
And that's the kind offilmmaking that happens.
That's more of like a.
Like it's a job for everyonethat you can just tell when
you're on set that there's not abig load of passion behind this
project and that's okay.
I mean, it's good work foreveryone involved and I'm not
saying anything bad about Butthere's other filmmaking that's
(03:23):
like deeply passionate.
And usually it's these peoplethat are.
trying to make something happenbecause they're just have their
heart in it.
And I'm thinking of films.
I think Denzel Washington, forexample, is an a list actor
who's really big and he's onmovies that are unionized
through the roof.
Right?
Sag.
you know, the DP is going to beASC and the director is going to
(03:44):
be DGA.
And yet.
when you get on set, I guaranteeyou that, that film.
set on fences felt like an indiefilm.
I mean, in some ways it mightmeet that indie definition, but
that's a very ambiguous term.
But my point is, it probablyfelt like a very small team and
they shot on film, but they shothim like this tiny shotgun
(04:05):
Americana house that was like,period.
And.
They didn't even have room forlights to really fit between the
houses because the houses werebuilt so close together and they
weren't willing to just build aset, you know, As you can
imagine.
There's not that many peoplethat could fit in that house.
And there's not that many lightsthat could Between the houses.
And so it's going to feel alittle tight and small and maybe
not that crazy.
(04:25):
Like we would imagine being onthe set of like a Marvel movie,
for example, And that's just oneexample and we might give some
more examples from films we'vemade, worked on, or even just
studied and looked at.
But there's, There's crew thatis absolutely essential.
And there's crew that isn'tessential.
And that all just comes down towhat kind of movie you're
making.
(04:46):
And, there are people makingmovies out of their own basement
with green screens and there'speople making movies in their
backyards and.
In their hometowns and there'speople flying to destinations
with crews of three, you know,Every story is different.
So it's just going to demanddifferent logistics.
But.
If you're trying to make a firstfeature and you're trying to do
(05:06):
a resource filmmaking style.
You can do an incredible.
Amount of storytelling.
Beautiful imagery.
You can execute.
Hollywood level imagery andHollywood level sound.
And excellent acting that canhold up to almost anyone else's.
And it can definitely punchmillions of dollars above its
(05:27):
weight class.
For little to no money.
And I really believe Yeah,
Anna (05:32):
and I think.
The basic thing you'll want tounderstand is that there are
many jobs to be done.
And as you start to break downyour script and look Okay.
Someone has to be in charge ofgetting this prop here and
someone has to make sure thatthis location is secured.
You're going to want to dividethat up among you and your
fellow teammates.
(05:54):
And so it can be helpful tounderstand departments and what
each department does.
So that you could divide it upnow that's not essential.
It could just be that you'relike Peter Jackson and his
friends and they just, you know,assign it out.
And who cares?
What you call.
The role, it's just, Hey, canyou do that?
And I'll do this.
And we just split up the work.
You can do it that informally.
(06:15):
but it is helpful to understanddepartments and maybe have
someone who's in charge of art.
For example, that may includecostume makeup props.
Set dressing.
It could be all of those thingsand on a super low budget.
First feature film.
Typically.
You'll want at least one personper department at least.
(06:38):
And it'd be really nice if youcan get some extra help, like an
assistant or a PA.
Per each department.
I'd say there's some essentialdepartments.
Camera.
Directorial.
Sound.
And art are probably the oneswhere it'd be really nice to
have a PA maybe dedicated toeach of those departments to be
(06:59):
able to run errands and helpbring stuff.
And just, And if you're adirector.
And you need a D, but again, Isay that and yet you don't
really need it.
And with our first film, Idirected and IAD.
And we didn't have an ID and Ididn't have any assistance.
And I was also a producer.
And my husband was deeping andhe had one PA helping him out.
(07:21):
And Claire white was our artproduction designer and she did
all of it.
She did.
Costume makeup set, dressing,running errands on her own,
borrowing her car.
You know, she just covered allof that.
Props.
So it can be a very small teamand you can make it work.
(07:41):
It just requires a lot morepreparation.
And coordination.
To be able to pull that
Kent (07:47):
off.
Yeah.
And we've in past episodes goneover like named off our crew and
explained what they did, but itranged from day to day from
anywhere between my wife and I.
Right.
Anna and I, and the actors andwhichever actors were there,
which some days were one of ourkids.
There were days that that was,that was it.
It was Anna Kenton, one kid, youknow, and, and then there were
(08:10):
days where it was, you Clairewas there on And chastity was
either acting or doing somethingto do with locations or casting
or payroll, or she was kind ofthis line producer sort of thing
hybrid.
Anna (08:24):
Prior to serial department, but
Kent (08:26):
yeah, but you can see how, like it got fluid and you kind
of just knew what work needed toget done.
And we don't.
Recommend doing everything theway we've done it in all of our
films, especially our firstfilm, because.
It was very, very stressful, butI don't think it was stressful
because of the number of crew wehad.
I actually think that if we wentback and did that film.
(08:47):
Let's say the same story withthe same logistical weight with
that exact same crew.
I think we would know exactlywhat we would need to do
differently.
And so the knowledge is reallymore valuable than.
Pumping or injecting the crewwas just bodies, you know?
but I would say also that,talent goes a lot farther than
(09:07):
just bodies as well.
So you can get extras or you canget PAs and you can just load
the set with people withuntrained people, with students,
with high schoolers or collegekids, like, you know, like
freshmen in college, people whoare totally willing to work for
free, who.
Our blessed by the opportunity.
I'm not talking about likepushing people to do stuff
against their wills for no moneyand underpaying people, but
(09:29):
there are people who want.
To be on a set.
That's an artistic, intimate.
passion-driven experience wherethey get lots of experience and
they get to be close with thedirector.
That's very valuable for peoplewho are still learning.
And so I think it's totally.
A good idea to be Frank, toreach out on whatever Facebook
(09:50):
or other groups and say, Hey,we've got this film going on.
We need PA's.
And to get a few bodies on set,but a few very competent,
talented, passionate people on ateam can go.
Really really far.
And I, and I want to use anexample.
Of, a movie that actually had a$5 million Which you might
think, why would you do that?
(10:10):
Why would you bring that up asan example?
And I'm just going to show youwhere that budget went.
the movie I'm talking about isno man land.
which was 20, 21 best picturewon.
Best director won best actress.
I thought it was exquisite.
And, And you might look at itand think, well, that actually
is kind of a bigger crew.
Well, when you get back, whenyou get to the bottom on HMDB of
their extremely long credits forcast.
(10:33):
Which are really long becausethey, they credit every extra
it's actually a decently smallMost of them.
We're social actors.
They were portraying themselves.
They weren't professionalactors.
and then there's this producerlist, which we'll skip.
There's a few names on there,including the director of PR and
actress.
Frances McDormand enclosure.
(10:54):
but I'm skipping the producercredits because those people
could have been added asproducers on the backend.
There was definitely some,production company and studios
supporting this film.
those names could be coming froma lot of different places.
but as far as who did the workof producing this movie was
probably a majority.
Closure and Frances McDormandand there might be one or two
(11:15):
others.
And then cinematography was byJoshua James Richards.
He had.
I think one, a C.
If I'm not mistaken.
Yeah.
He had one AC and a gaffer.
And there was a few other peoplewho I think it looks like they
may be de played.
Oh no.
He had a second AC I'm justreading this off.
(11:38):
I looked over it before and then
Anna (11:39):
we'll and I know we've seen them talk about.
The making of this film behindthe scenes footage, where close
out, talks about her team.
And how small it was.
And that it was surprising tosome of them that this was a big
budget film with a big actress,because I mean, big budget, it
Kent (11:56):
felt.
For an indie person.
Low low budget
Anna (12:00):
figure budget than any of us are going to have on our
first
Kent (12:02):
film.
Cohen's and the that's a verylow budget yet.
Anna (12:06):
Yeah.
But for a$5 million film.
It was a very small team.
And it's a passionate project.
And I think that works well withpassion projects, where there's
a very strong vision.
That's easier to communicate toa smaller team when you have
tons and tons of people.
That can get lost.
(12:26):
And a lot of things can fallbetween the cracks or.
Get lost in translation becauseyou're going to relay.
What you're hoping for is ifyou're a director.
For the film and then eachdepartment, head's going to
relay that to their team.
And then they're going tointerpret that how they will and
find a way to make it happen.
And it can get kind of watereddown in all of that.
(12:47):
Lost in translation stuff.
And so I think really smallteams are good for people who
have a really strong vision andare trying to communicate
something very specific and wantto be very involved in the
creative process.
And that's something I want totouch on today too, is just the
difference between a producerand a director.
(13:07):
And what role you're going toplay.
In your first feature film,because a lot of people come
into our feature filmmakeracademy.
And they know they want to becreatively involved in the
project.
They know they want someownership on this project.
They're probably not a good fit.
For our program, if they don'tfeel that way.
But they might not know exactlyhow or where they fit in.
(13:29):
And sometimes you do, sometimesyou come in and, you know, I
want to be an actor.
I want to be a DP.
And I'm just going to make ithappen for myself by making a
feature film.
And that's fine if you knowexactly what your position is,
you want to do.
Great.
Add producer to.
calm a producer to that list andyou're ready to go.
And that can work really well.
(13:49):
But the producer is the one whohas the creative ownership.
Is kind of at the top of thepyramid.
Who makes the film happen?
Who secures the financing, whodecides who to hire in all the
other positions, securing the
Kent (14:03):
financing.
To Anna's point is definitelyusually the producer's job, but
that can also be.
anybody right?
Anna (14:11):
Often.
You'll see a director produceror an actor producer, someone
who yeah.
Maybe is involved in thatprocess, but that's just a
matter of a means to an end.
Like I want to produce to getthis to happen so that I can DP
it because I really want to do Pfor example.
But definitely.
If you're going through theprogram.
You're going to be a producer ina F in a way on this film,
(14:34):
you're going to be picking yourteam and putting this together
And so you don't have to knoweverything about filmmaking to
do this, to find team memberswho do, who are experienced, who
can do their jobs.
And even they don't have to benecessarily super experienced.
They might be just friends andfamily who are willing to help
out and want to some positionswill matter more than others.
(14:56):
Um, how much experience theyhave.
But.
Or is hired by the producer, forexample.
So if you are producing aproject.
And you don't want to direct it.
You want to do a different role.
Then you're going to be hiringout a director.
But you still are the top of thepyramid, so to speak, you can
decide to fire that tractor, ifyou don't like where they're
(15:16):
going with the vision.
Hopefully.
You try to figure that out earlyon and work together.
And.
And get clear on it.
But then the director is the onewho's going to work with all the
other department heads.
To create a unity of vision andmake sure that everyone's on the
same page, everyone's workingtowards the same vision and not
detracting from that.
Kent (15:36):
Yeah.
And so.
There are different kinds ofpeople making these films.
So Anna is describing someonewho maybe let's say that you
have a script or an idea.
And you're materializing thatand you just want it to exist.
You may or may not want todirect it.
And by that, I mean, you may, oryou may not, right?
Like, I'm not saying that tolike deter you from directing,
(15:58):
you might just want to.
jump on that you might havesomeone, you know, who's willing
to do that.
You may or may not have skillsin camera.
You know, that you feelconfident I'll be honest I think
it's really interesting to lookat the people who.
There are some filmmakers whojust.
They take everything seriouslyenough that they can reduce the
crew size by a significantamount because they, and the
(16:20):
very few people working withthem do almost everything.
And.
And there's people who producethe right.
They DP it, they edit it.
So I'll point out again.
The editor on nomad land was thedirector, the production
designer.
Was the DP.
Like those are rare to see thosejobs.
(16:42):
Smushed together, directoreditor, not as rare, but those
are big jobs to.
Those are big hats to wear.
You know, to put on the sameperson.
And, and yet, you know, you willget even big directors that will
do that, but those big directorswill often like these writer,
director, actors, for example,Sometimes those movies are so
(17:02):
well-funded that they have a tonof But I've also seen low budget
films.
DP writer, producer, director,actor.
Editor, like did everything, youknow, and they look good, acting
solid and.
You know, thunder road is agreat, case study, which was a
short film that went to Sundanceadapted into a feature film,
(17:25):
which won south by Southwest, afew years afterwards.
And.
I'm the director of thunderroad.
Said when you realize, or whenyou're willing to do everything
yourself.
You know that you're ready tomake your first feature.
he said something along thoselines.
I would push back against thatbecause I don't think it's
necessary that you do everythingyourself and it is possible to
(17:48):
find and get It's okay to hirehelp, and it doesn't have to
cost very much But, but I likethe attitude that like, You
know, Aye.
Felt confident in my ability onour first feature to shoot it to
DP.
It.
I don't think I'm the greatestDP in the planet.
I'm not, I'm no deacons, youknow?
(18:10):
but I knew I could do.
I could do it justice and Icould do much better than anyone
else I could afford to hire.
With the money I had.
And, and I knew people who wereway better than me personally,
but they would all cost more.
You know, and so I just did itmyself and I'm really glad that
I did.
Now.
I also produced.
(18:31):
On that side of things I neverproduced.
I hadn't produced a short film.
I guess I technically had, but Imean, not really.
I hadn't really taken a personalproject and grabbed the bull by
its horns.
And so there's sometimes roleswhere we have to say, can I step
into this and do it myself?
that's something you're going tohave to judge for yourself.
What are you willing to take on?
What are you willing to try forthe first time?
(18:53):
And.
That's it, no disrespect to themedium, you know, sometimes I
think we treat the medium, likeit's too holy, like, oh no, you
have no right to act or you haveno right to direct.
Or you have, you haven't donethat before.
That's a real craft and you haveto hone it.
And, it just depends on yourconfidence and how much work
you're really you're willing todo.
In the preparation phase.
And I think that maybe laststatement is the most important
(19:15):
is that.
If I could go back, we've talkedabout this many times.
The prep is the most important.
So if I'm going to produce, I'mgoing to produce.
The whole thing deeply preparedbeforehand.
If i'm going to dp for the firsttime i'm going to really
practice and prepare and test.
So I feel like.
Deep preparation on the frontend is really, what's going to
(19:37):
enable you to do roles that youmight not otherwise be qualified
And any of us can do that.
We can all prepare and put a lotof time into something,
especially a low to no budget,passion project.
So I think that that.
It's something we might need tobe willing to do is roll up our
sleeves, learn new things and,get passionate, you know, and,
(20:00):
and passion fuels a lot oflearning.
And I, and I, and it's justpossible.
I don't, I don't think weshould.
Anna (20:06):
Give ourselves that negative self-talk that tells us
that we can't do it.
Yeah.
And especially if this is a rolethat you really want to pursue
in your life.
You're going to have to learn itby doing it at some point.
So go Do it.
The worst thing that can happenis that the movie fails and you
learn a ton.
And the next time, you know, somuch better.
So it's still completely worthit to pursue the role that you
(20:29):
want to do as a career andpractice that.
and don't think that becauseother films have so many credits
and seem like there's so manypeople.
That it has to be that waybecause most big directors
started out with just theirfriends and family and a few key
positions.
And you can definitely make thatwork.
Kent (20:49):
I also would just push back against the phrase itself
of the film could fail or.
What does that even mean?
You know, it's like failure.
I mean, you can give up on Butjust decide not to do that, run
with it all the way through theentire process of pre production
production, post production.
Marketing getting a sales agent,putting it through festivals.
(21:11):
If that doesn't go very well,try some other way to sell I use
it as a calling card, push itout there.
You know, there's alwayssomething.
Out of it at least.
Yeah.
There's always something you cando to just mine.
As much out of the film.
As an asset for your career andfor, and for your bank account
and pocket book and an ROI is,there's a lot you can And just
(21:35):
keep with it.
And the longer you keep with it,the more you're going to learn
from it, which further.
Increases the value of the filmfor you, you know, as learning
experience, if nothing else.
but it's very unlikely that itwould be quote unquote, nothing
else.
Then the learning experience, inmy opinion, if you put good
passion Take your time and doyour very best work.
someone's gonna like it.
(21:56):
And that someone might help youget representation at the end of
your first film, it might beenough that people earn, you
know, the film runs a profit, oreven if no one gets easy
distribution, the fact thatyou've made a feature film will
make a difference for yourcareer.
Absolutely.
Worth And good luck.
Thanks for joining us tonightand send us your questions so we
(22:18):
can address them on the nextone.
Thanks.
Bye.
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