October 27, 2022 • 39 mins
How well do you know your characters? Can you anticipate how a person would act in a variety of situations?
In art, if you're drawing a person, you have to understand how bone structure works to be able to draw the figure accurately, but you're not going to actually see the bones necessarily in the finished product. The same is true for character development.
The benefits of knowing each character well will help you to write and/or direct more confidently. Tune into this episode to learn some practical techniques that you can use today to create rich, relatable characters.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:20):
Hi, welcome to the podcasttoday.
we've, we're going to start bytalking about creating
character.
And what that means.
So Kent and I had a discussionas we were on a walk with the
family today about.
How do you develop a character?
And that there are so manythings that come into play with
(00:43):
characters.
There's their history.
Their reactions to the thingsaround them.
Their occupations, theirpassions, their relationships.
There's so many ways that youcan develop a character.
but we want to talk about.
What that really is because in away, all of those things are.
Kind of external and charactermight be something deeper than
(01:06):
that.
Just like.
In art, if you're drawing.
person, you have to understandhow bone structure works.
To be able to draw the figureaccurately, but you're not going
to actually see the bonesnecessarily.
In the finished product.
And so there's something to thatwith character development as
well that we want to get into.
(01:26):
Yeah.
so welcome to Huddleston pond.
It's a little pond, a littleways from our house.
And if you close your eyes,you'll join us on our
conversation.
As we wrangled children and walkaround, Uh, cloudy day.
And there are ducks and.
A lot of.
Bird poop on the on ground.
(01:46):
And Anna and I aretroubleshooting a script that
Anna is currently writing andtalking about character.
And why do certain charactersdecide to do something?
And how do you motivate them andwhat makes a character change?
And these are sort of the thingswe were talking about.
And so.
We've had some thoughts aboutthat.
and like Anna talked about.
(02:08):
This, this sort of.
I don't know, a metaphorical wayof.
Of thinking about it.
We talked about.
There's all these ways that wecan reveal character.
But.
What is character?
You know, and so that's the, thebones, there's like this idea
that there's bones underneath.
Flesh, you know, But, but wenever really see that like a
(02:31):
movie's in capable of showing.
That you know, for what ittruly, truly is.
but it can show all sorts ofthings to suggest to the
audience.
To give them an idea of whatthat is.
And, and so I guess I'll startby asking.
what Ana.
Would you say his character?
I was just going to ask youthat.
(02:52):
I beat you to it.
You have ideas already.
no.
If you asked me, I would, mybrain would immediately start
searching for it, but I'm goingto make you do the work first.
I mean, I think character is.
Largely determined by ourreactions to the circumstances
around us, how we choose toreact internally with our
(03:14):
thoughts.
Feelings.
And then eventually the actionsthat are manifest on screen.
And so it's something that.
It's not so black and white orsimple as to say, oh, well, You
know, in all of these types ofsituations, this character
reacts.
Angrily.
(03:34):
And in these other situations,the characteristics.
Happily.
I think that it's, A very hardthing to put your finger on, but
essentially it's, the patterns.
In the ways that we respond to.
The things around Hm.
So there's patterns, Malik.
That's an interesting idea.
(03:55):
You know, it makes me think ofRobert.
a key.
Who wrote a book called story.
And I remember one thing thatstuck with me from when I read
that years ago, I was in highschool actually.
I grabbed a copy of it.
Off of like a Barnes and noblebookshelf, He, he said that a
lot of novice writers.
Or not novice writers for thatmatter will, will be like trying
(04:18):
to create more character in acharacter, you know?
And he says that what they'll dois they'll say, oh, he was in
prison and he's, dashinglyhandsome.
But now he's out of prison andhe's reformed his ways and he
plays the saxophone and he, youknow, and they just keep like
throwing stuff.
You know, information.
on, on this person as if that'sgoing to like somehow flesh out
(04:41):
the character, you know, and hesaid, This is characterization,
and we need to understand thedelineation.
Between character.
And characterization.
And so characterization or likeattributes.
Talents or skills or informationabout a character.
And maybe I need to go back andreread story, but I don't
(05:03):
remember him ever actually likeclearly defining what character
itself is.
And I think most people.
In like casual conversation, butsay something similar to what
you were alluding to Anna, whichis.
Character is like, What we do,you know, even Robert McKee
actually, that's basically whathe said is he said, we define
(05:24):
character by showing whatsomeone does in a high stress
situation.
And so he talks about why wehave stories that put a lot of
pressure on a character becausewhat they choose to do when the
pressure's really high.
Reveals who they are.
And, you know, that's, that's,that's reminds me of CS Lewis
who said.
(05:45):
Circumstances do not make theman.
They reveal him to himself.
Hmm.
so there's a lot there.
I think these are differentpeople trying to express what
his character, which is such ana theorial, it's almost a
concept.
Yeah.
I like where you're going withthat.
Like, That in a high stresssituation, how do you respond?
But I also think character is.
(06:05):
How do you respond when you'rereally happy?
Like, how do you respond?
In all sorts of situations.
When you're getting to knowsomeone when you're dating, for
example, You want to see thatperson could argue that that's
high stress.
Well, sometimes.
Do you want to see that personin a variety of circumstances?
And I remember my mom telling methis, like, what is, you know,
(06:28):
see what that person is likewhen they're angry, see what
they're like when they'restressed, see what they're like
when they're happy and kind of,or when they're with their
family or with kids.
Yeah, exactly.
And that gives you.
A well-rounded.
View of that person's character.
And so maybe.
That could be useful andcharacter development for me to
say, how does this character.
(06:50):
Act around these kinds of peopleor in these kinds of situations
and just take.
Some common ones, you know, likefor sure.
You want to know how they actwhen they're, when they're
tired, when they're stressed,when they're angry, those are
common.
You know, and something that youwere making me think of.
What does that word?
It starts with an L that's whenyou're falling in love with
someone.
(07:11):
Limerence limerence yeah, youwere reading about how like
limerence is the word thatdescribes the.
The state that we're in, whenwe're falling in love with
someone.
So.
It's that state where we onlysee the good.
And so even when you do put themin all those circumstances, it's
like, of course we're going tobe on our best behavior when
we're like dating someone.
And we're around kids.
We're going to be like thesweetest.
(07:31):
We can be around kids, or whenwe first meet their mom, we're
going to try and make the bestimpression we can.
And even if we don't do a greatjob of it, the other person's
probably going to be like, youknow, you just see past it.
Anyway, I bring that up becauseI feel like there's sort of an
anti limerence.
I'm sure there's a word Thataudience's experience and films.
When they're watching a movieand I feel like it's actually
(07:52):
interesting because I feel like.
We were talking about thisearlier this week.
And I'm where we feel like whenwe're honest, when we say,
though, this is kind ofrealistic, what we think that
maybe even this is what I woulddo in these circumstances when I
would get frustrated with mykids I do this thing.
We've, we've done this in a lotof scripts where we're like,
well, but this is, this is arealistic.
Behavior.
(08:13):
And then people read it and theysay, we hate this character.
And we're like, that hurts myfeelings because I feel like
this is a really a reflection ofmyself and it feels very
realistic.
And I think most of us have.
Lost our tempers horribly with,with our own And.
Behaved in ways that we wouldfeel so embarrassed about if we
(08:34):
could see that.
Played back for the same way wewould feel is if we could see
our childhood tantrums, youknow, and then that's not a
justification, but I do thinkthat it's common in the sense
that we're all trying.
And yet.
I'll show this to I'll show, youknow, we'll show scripts to
people.
And what we realized was thateven if we're being honest or
(08:54):
realistic, Is it going to auntielimerence, you know, like it's
like a high amount of judgmenttowards characters.
We really want people who aregoing to be a little more
heroic.
But, I mean, maybe that'stangential, but like what makes
someone root for a character?
Because ironically, I rememberon the page, when you read the
script for, for example, toystory, the first one from 95.
(09:18):
would he just, he reads like anall out jerk.
and no one cares when they watchthat movie, man, the beginning
of that movie, he's sabotaginghe's selfish, he's insecure.
He's judgmental.
He's, he's scared that buzz isgoing to take his spot as like
the big cheese.
And he's.
You know, he's really.
(09:41):
He's kind of awful and yet.
He has some charisma and he is agood leader and Buzz's kind of a
dope anyway.
For rooting for him to get ridof this weird space toy.
And yet.
Like, he kind of deserveseverything he gets.
He, he, he does a lot of things.
Pretty selfishly.
And so.
(10:02):
What is it that makes.
Woody someone we root for.
And what is it that make somecharacters?
Maybe not as well written bypeople.
Like, I don't know me.
Hard to root for, even ifthey're quote unquote realistic.
You know, and.
And what does that have to sayabout this discussion we're
having about the definition ofcharacter?
(10:22):
And not just the definition, butthe podcast I hope is, you know,
leads to, how do we createcharacter or how do we
communicate character?
Yeah.
I mean, what comes to my mind isthe simple definition of a story
that it's someone who's tryingto do something and having a
hard time.
But what is it trying to.
(10:43):
Who wants something badly and ishaving a hard time getting it.
Like I said it wrong and thenmess it Just keep trying.
It's hard, but you'll get it.
and I think that that basicpremise is so relatable.
To me, everyone knows what it'slike to want something badly and
(11:04):
have a hard time getting And soI think that characters where
it's very clear that they havean objective.
They really want to win over thegirl or they really want.
You know, too.
Figure out their career.
I don't know, whatever.
They really want something and.
(11:25):
And I think if we can lock intothat, that helps me relate to
characters.
I think that it's hard to relateto them when they feel passive
and they feel like they're justkind of.
Reacting.
Hmm.
Well, that's true.
And you know, if a characterisn't.
Wanting and taking action towardsomething.
(11:46):
It's true that we sort of.
How can we root for them?
What are we rooting for?
Yeah.
And, and so, and it's, I.
I mean, I pushed back on myself.
Right?
I'm talking about this from theplace of like audience
engagement, you know, to helpthem.
Participate in the story.
(12:07):
But ultimately like, It's notlike the objective has to be
that we root for theprotagonist.
I am leaving space open for thatbecause I don't, that's not the
ends.
That's usually a means.
It's a means for engaging in.
Helping encourage audienceparticipation, but it's true.
how are they going to.
(12:29):
Care.
About a character.
If the character doesn't careabout anything, you know,
Someone might be able to answerthat, you know, maybe if I give
it enough thought I could thinkof an exception, but.
but for the most part, it's aquestion that I think leads us
to a decently.
universal conclusion in thewriting world, which is It's
hard.
You it's easier to.
(12:49):
Push a character, not push acharacter, Right.
A character that wants somethingdeeply and.
And usually that requires somevulnerability on the part of the
writer.
I think we usually have to thinkabout like, It doesn't have to
be personal.
Like what.
Do I want, but.
And that often works well, youknow?
Coming from a place of, ofdesire.
(13:10):
But I think that the characteralso needs to have an arc.
Right.
So they have to change somehowin the end.
It really doesn't matter if theyget what they want or not.
As long as they become who theyneed to be.
And so we need to get a senseof.
Where they're falling short.
How they overcome that orchange?
(13:32):
And I think that makes forcharacters that are.
I don't know that feel good.
Feel good.
You know, for some reason what'scoming to my mind and mean, and
you can plug in whatever movieyou want.
You can do this all day, right?
But for some reason, I think abeautiful example of this is the
protagonist in the films, thesound of metal.
(13:55):
He's such an.
Exquisite.
Example of a characters wants.
Which are desperately intense.
Versus a character.
Which are significant, right.
And so he's experiencing thesewants.
A lot.
Basically, he loses his hearingand he's a drummer and, his
(14:19):
world is gone.
It's like falling apart.
And it feels like his wholeworld is ripped away from him,
which is a standard first act intraditional Western three-act
structure.
Screenwriting.
Storytelling for that matter.
and so now it's, it's evidentthat when his girlfriend.
Leaves him to be in this.
(14:40):
Home for the deaf where he'sbasically going to go through.
some sort of a rehabilitationof, of some kind.
Because you don't learn.
ASL and form relationships andwhatever.
His whole mission is to get hishearing back.
So that he can get his lifeback.
That's it.
That is the bottom line.
(15:01):
And the only way he can see todo that is like scrape enough
money together to.
Get this operation, which isreally expensive to restore some
sense of hearing.
So that he doesn't have to.
Communicate with people throughASL.
And the end of that movie kindof.
I don't Without spoiling.
(15:22):
And I really want to encouragepeople to watch that film.
It's really wonderful.
But there's, there's this sortof like total loss and there's a
sense of, his needing What hewants is his hearing back.
He wants his old life back, butwhat he needs is to basically
look forward to a new life andfind some sense of peace.
Like let go of this yearningdesire.
(15:44):
And.
Embrace the silence, literalsilence in this case.
And, It's actually asignificantly spiritual film in
my opinion, by the end.
That character feels well To me.
And he's, he's pretty simple.
You imagine a musician.
(16:04):
Who loses his hearing and how.
You know, Earth shattering.
That is, and this is often thecase, right?
We think about.
What's the worst possible thingthat could happen to this
character.
Do that to them, you know?
we talk about that.
I feel like a lot inscreenwriting, right?
It's not, I, it's not like I'mthe first person to say this.
(16:27):
but why is that?
Because that will plunge theminto a fit of wanting something
badly.
You know, it's like, that willput them in a situation of deep
strain and desire and it'sgonna.
Review that's going to causetheir character to kind of spill
out.
Through all these.
Reactions and actions and wordsand deeds and, and the paths
(16:51):
they choose to take.
And.
All the changes that ensue intheir life are going to kind of
reveal that, not just tothemselves as CS Lewis said, but
to the audience.
Well in a way that's true foreveryone.
I think we all have to changethrough a series of rebirths,
you know, where you have to letgo of who you were to become
(17:12):
someone new.
And so that entails a loss ofsome sort or a sacrifice or.
A letting go.
In order to become somethingnew.
And so.
It makes sense that that wouldbe a catalyst.
Hm.
For change.
(17:32):
That's really thoughtful.
I wonder about, How Christ talksabout needing to become like a
little child and why childrenhave such an ability to let go
of things and forgive people.
And.
Change and adapt right there.
So malleable and fluid.
And I think part of that isbecause they don't have much to
(17:53):
hold on to.
First of all, they're not inmuch.
They don't have much powerright.
Over their own lives.
Adults, mostly direct theirlives for them.
And second of all, they don'thave much history, so they
haven't, they haven't built uplike hardened preferences and.
You know, a list of pretty bigdecisions for the most For most
(18:13):
children, life is.
It's just constantly fluid.
And so like that act of lettinggo of something and moving
forward and making it personalchange.
And.
Kind of going with the flow andeven growing.
It's very natural to a child.
Well, and I also think that whatthat refers to cause there's
also scriptures about, when Iwas a child.
(18:34):
I did things as a child and nowI've put away childish things,
right?
Like, He's not telling us to bechildish.
Right.
And I think that being like achild, the thing that most
defines someone who is childlikeis their dependence.
Dependence on an adult figure toprovide for them and to guide
(18:55):
And I think.
For me, it's, it's morerelational.
Being like a child.
Is relying on Christ.
And realizing that we depend onhim, which sometimes comes from.
Trying to do things ourselves,failing miserably.
Being humbled to the dust andrecognizing We can't do it
(19:18):
without him.
And.
And so we enter that childlikestate of dependence.
In our relationship to him.
So, what does that have to dowith character?
I'm not, I'm not getting, I'mnot getting I'm not getting
after you.
I think, well, I don't, I, it'snot a tangent.
I think it's all relevant.
I ask it because I think thatthere might be some
(19:40):
Realizations, you know, thatcould come from pulling these
things together because forexample, in.
That that's not just our ownpersonal religious worldview.
But I think that understandinghow human beings actually work
and what is the nature.
Of human beings.
Is a good way to, you know, themore knowledge we gain about
(20:01):
that, the more we canaccurately.
Build.
And interpret and anticipateactions of characters.
It makes us better writers, youknow, I think what you're
getting at is, I think somepeople might have the worldview
it's opposite.
They might believe no.
We need to take control of ourlives.
We need to.
And there might be some validityto that, right?
(20:23):
It's this balance between, Sortof grace and agency, right?
This ability and, andresponsibility to act and make
decisions versus this trusting.
That no matter what happens,we'll be okay.
Kind of a thing, you know, it'slike Just difficult almost at
odds.
something that we've listenedto, a guy named Jared Halverson,
talk about polarities, right?
(20:44):
Yeah.
Haydel's dialectical thinkingkind of stuff.
Yeah.
And I think at the core of allof this is sort of a question
about.
How do we change?
Is it that we are dependent andwe can only change.
Through Christ or is it that wetake hold of our life and.
(21:05):
And decide to make positivechange, or is it a combination
of who is it up to?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Ultimately.
Does that.
I mean, well, the reason I thinkwhat you're asking is so
important.
I mean, and you can toss it upand go, okay, these are
difficult philosophical orreligious questions.
But what do they have to do withscreenwriting?
(21:26):
The reason I think it's actuallyimportant to screenwriting.
Is because I think that thoseare probably the two big
worldviews on how do we change?
Does it depend on somethingoutside of ourselves or
something inside of ourselves?
If outside, what is it?
And if inside, what is it?
And, The answer to that questionhas a lot to do with the way we
(21:46):
write characters and the way wewrite stories.
And.
the way we tell stories and theway actors act.
Characters and stories, right.
And the way directors.
Make choices about.
When to do another take andwhich take to choose in the edit
like that, worldview will affectthe way you make movies.
And, and so I think those arevalid and important questions to
(22:10):
ask ourselves and to ponder onbecause it allows us to more
thoughtfully decide.
Which take to use.
You know, Or whatever characterwork, what to say to an actor,
what to ride on the page?
Yeah.
All these things.
And so.
Right now something I think youand I have talked a lot about is
that like the capacity to changeand to, even use our agency to
(22:34):
change.
is given to us by the grace ofGod and yet.
The decisions we make.
Our.
A result of our own wills.
Like we must choose.
To follow a path and, and so.
That's the religious side of it,but from like a S a writing side
(22:57):
of it, that means I'm going to,you know, I believe that
characters on the one hand arenot necessarily a product of
their circumstances.
And yet circumstances.
Have the by-product ofcharacter, you know, especially
high intensity circumstancesthat draw character out of
people, you know?
I don't know if I phrased thatin a way.
(23:18):
I made much sense.
Oh, they reveal the character, Isuppose, but I guess.
In my mind, I'm kind of thinkingof it right now is almost as
simple algorithm or like aamaze, you know, that.
We're presented with decisionsand we Choices.
And often I think when I've seencharacters and movies change,
(23:41):
you see them make the same sortof choice over and over again
and fail, fail, fail.
And then they have to have someenlightenment at some point,
some sort of a realization or abreakthrough.
That causes them to make adifferent choice.
And.
then even often that seems likeit fails, but ultimately it
(24:04):
doesn't.
And so there's sort of this,like, yeah, you're taking
action.
You're making decisions, but werely on Revelation or that, That
inspiration to know how to makea better choice or what to do
instead.
And maybe it's throughadditional information.
Like they get a little bit more.
(24:25):
A bigger view of the puzzle andthey finally go, oh, okay.
I'm going to change the way Iapproach this and going back to
sound of metal.
I think it's interesting becausehe, he fights and fights and
fights to, to reunite with hisgirlfriend and to reclaim his
old life.
And then he does reunite withthat girlfriend and can
(24:48):
immediately see by her behaviorthat.
Them separating, allowed her toexperience some growth that she
really needed.
And then coming back together,he realized was going to cause
her to revert back to the same.
Problems that she had beenstruggling with.
And that revelation, thatcontrast the experience that he
(25:08):
had had through act two of theEssentially.
Gave him the perspective in thatmoment to be able to see like,
We serve each other.
The relationship service to getus to a certain point in our
lives.
And now.
It's best that I let her go.
And walk away from this and hecouldn't see that in act one.
(25:30):
And he wasn't with her and hertwo and an X three.
He finally is in a position withthe necessary experience and
perspective to be able to seethat.
And that's when you realize thischaracter has grown, like he
never would've walked away fromher.
That was like world ending forhim and act one.
That was, it seemed like it wasgoing to destroy him, at least
(25:51):
in his mind.
And now that he's with heragain, he's, he's grown enough.
I learned enough, you know, seenenough that he, like you said,
It makes a different decision inthe S in a similar circumstance.
Yeah, and they do that verybeautifully.
And.
I'm not sure if you had thoughtsor, or examples that were in
(26:12):
your own mind, but I went backto the same one to illustrate
the point.
I think there's tons of examplesin my own life and in movies.
I mean, we just watched Lalaland, so that's fresh on my
mind.
I know.
I don't get tired of that one.
And that's another example whereshe's trying the same thing over
and over again.
(26:33):
Auditioning, auditioning.
Trying to make it as an actress,going to events like parties,
networking.
And it's failing every time.
It's not actually leading her tothe success she wants.
And then, Sebastian RyanGosling's character comes into
her life and he's sort of the.
The catalyst for a differentapproach saying like, well, why
(26:55):
don't you write something asinteresting as you And she, he
provides.
As our advice to everyonelistening to this podcast, but
we'll get to that later.
For sure.
He provides for her to be ableto quit her job and right.
one act play and do this play.
And it feels like even that hascompletely failed and the
(27:15):
relationship fails and no oneshows up to her play and she
can't pay back the theater andshe's all sad.
But ultimately there was someonethere who saw it and cast her in
something vague.
And that was.
A big break for her, but it'ssort of this, like, She was just
going to keep trying the samething.
Forever.
If it hadn't been for RyanGosling's character stepping in.
(27:38):
And.
Making some change there.
And that was sort of like whytheir relationship was
meaningful, even though theydidn't end up together.
She helped her to see what sheneeded to do.
To achieve what she was tryingto achieve.
And so sometimes I think.
God works through other people.
Sometimes he inspires usdirectly.
(28:00):
And sometimes it takes us sometime to actually like, Apply.
What, what keeps coming to usthat we need to to believe that
it will actually work.
Enough to do it.
And, you know, Let's just, I'mjust gonna throw this out here.
If you're listening and you'rethinking, well, what if I don't
have the same, like religiousperspectives as you, I don't
(28:20):
think it matters in the terms ofthe craft of screenwriting, that
you share our perspectives.
I mean, it matters in.
Whatever end goal you have forwhat you're communicating with
those films, but those goalsmight be different, you know?
They're always gonna bedifferent for different people.
We're all different humanbeings.
But, But I guess my point is, isthat I really believe that it's
not a date of six.
Maquina kind of a situationwhether God's completely in
(28:43):
control or not.
I think that life itself.
was designed and set up in away.
And I think we kind of have tobelieve this whether we're
religious or not, if we'rescreenwriters that the nature of
this world.
Will always drive us to a point.
Where, what we hold dear is atstake and we have to make
(29:04):
decisions in the midst of thosestakes.
Like it is just the way of life.
It's why great stories work.
The way they do.
And that's why I think thoseprinciples.
Our universal.
Yeah.
And it's been the same since.
You know, Sir gallon and thegreen Knight and Hansel and
Gretel.
And.
Something Star wars andwhatever, you know, Plug it in,
(29:27):
but like people, you know, lifeis about.
This journey that we're all on,where we're having to make these
choices.
And.
And at the end of many choices.
We learned something.
I mean, an example of a verysmall character arc is a.
Exquisite film like Manchesterby the sea.
I mean, it's not like he's like.
(29:48):
Totally healed and made thishuge arc by the end of And yet
you yearn for him and he'sdealing with a big, difficult
circumstance, and he's trying tofigure something and by the end,
like his Teeny tiny.
I mean, It's not like, you know,he pulls the sword out of the
(30:09):
stone or anything.
And yet the experience ofwatching that film still sucks
you in, you know?
Yeah.
It's that whole, something willalways force us to face.
Ourselves our own weaknesses,our own.
Fears.
And.
And even though we may try torun or hide from those, they
keep appearing in differentplaces until eventually.
(30:32):
We have to face that we have to.
Confront them in some sort ofdifferent way, because there is
no escaping.
Yeah.
I've really enjoyed thisconversation so far with you,
and I'm not sure.
If you want to keep pushing itfarther.
And see where we go.
The, some things to recap, Iguess what we've learned so We
(30:53):
talk about what his character.
Let's let's it presents,presents similar circumstances
that we began with in the firstact of this podcast.
And present them at the end ofthe podcast by asking, how would
you define character?
Well, did I ever ask you.
I mean, I think I talked to thatpoint, but ask me.
(31:15):
Well, how would you definecharacter?
I defined it.
Well, I quoted Robert McKee isdefining it as what someone does
in high stress circumstance.
All.
And I would say.
Y.
I would ask, why do they do.
That.
Why do they make that choice inthe high stress circumstance?
(31:39):
And the answer to that, why Ithink is closer to what actually
defines character.
We define character for theaudience by showing them what
that character does in thehigh-stress circumstance, but
that's not necessarily whatcharacter is.
What it is, is the reason whythey make that choice.
And the reason why they makethose choices might be.
circumstantial, which you canshow the audience like, oh, well
(32:01):
it's clear that he did thatbecause.
His mortgage depended on it, orwho's the life of so-and-so was
on the line or whatever.
But, But that, just reveals, Ithink.
Their beliefs.
So if anything, I would definecharacter as I won't say
thoughts, I guess.
The word beliefs means thoughtsthat we believe are true.
(32:23):
And so it has to be more thanjust an idea that the character
has.
It's the actual beliefs that thecharacter holds, you know, and I
think that defines And.
Before I forget.
I'd like to tie that into whatsomething you actually set on
our conversation for thepodcast.
Which you mentioned will Smithwho had an acting.
(32:44):
seminar lecture.
And masterclass.
Yeah, he, he talked about howcharacter is a construct and how
he realized this because hecheating And he found himself.
Becoming in real life, thatperson.
And he said, that's kind of, itwas kind of scary for him.
And, and he realized at thatmoment, Character and movies as
a construct, but in real life,it's a construct.
(33:05):
It's something we decide tocreate.
And so.
It's interesting.
And I won't go deep into theacting part of it, but just this
idea that like, In reality andin screenwriting, in the art of
creating characters.
The beliefs we have when weunderstand that that is what we,
what is driving our decisions.
We can.
(33:25):
We can analyze and reconstructthose beliefs.
That can be hard work sometimes.
And sometimes life forces us toreconsider our beliefs for
better and for worse.
But those beliefs that we.
Choose.
And sometimes.
Maybe you don't realize wechose, you know, maybe we don't
realize some of the beliefs thatwe have developed.
(33:48):
You know, especially the oneswe've developed from childhood.
But whatever those beliefs are,they exist.
And, those are what are driving.
Our choices and they beliefs arespecially manifest in high
stress circumstances or highstakes circumstances.
Yeah.
I love that.
And I think that that doesapply, especially in filmmaking,
(34:08):
just because filmmaking is asimplification of real life.
It's a microcosm of, you know, awhole person and.
And so it could almost be assimple as.
One particular thing that thecharacter believes.
Or one particular aspect oftheir character.
M one trait.
(34:30):
That.
And in real life, that's how wechange is one.
Thing at a time, you know,little, little changes at a time
to little aspects of ourcharacter.
It's not usually an, an overhaulof all of our attributes at
once.
We kind of Realizations.
Slowly we grow into them andchange them.
(34:51):
but.
It makes me think that if I wereto write a character and try to
develop them, I might focus onone particular aspect.
an example that came to mindwas.
The secret life of Walter Mitty.
And how does he react in a highstress situation?
He imagined something.
Like magical and adventurous.
(35:12):
He imagines himself the way hewishes he was or the way he
wishes he could be in thatsituation and actually zones
out.
It's like a protective, Way ofescaping what is his reality and
trying to run from his reality,which he eventually.
Can no longer do.
Yeah.
He starts to like his arc.
Is sort of catalyzed by adecision to embrace the
(35:34):
situation as it is.
And.
And confront.
Reality.
Which I think is reallyinteresting.
I think about it makes me thinkabout, The beginning when he's
trying to reach out to a woman.
On a dating website when heactually has like, like, And in
the flesh sort of likerelationship with this person at
(35:56):
work, which, they've neveractually spoken to each other,
but he's, he's hoping that thiswas a better way somehow to
connect with this person.
And.
ultimately he realizes that thebest way to connect with that
person is like, And in theactual literal word world.
and so.
Once again, that's, that's anexample of displaying arc.
(36:19):
but those decisions, what arehis beliefs?
What are, I mean, you don'tspell them out in the
screenplay, right?
And that would kind of ruin theart.
Right.
But my point is that it justfocuses in on that one aspect of
his personality.
And we get some of the otheraspects as we see it play out.
But they're not They're not thefulcrum of the story.
(36:41):
Which everything there is asimplification of.
One aspect of his personality.
And maybe that's the delineationbetween character and
characterization.
Character The beliefs or the.
You know, the beliefs thatmanifest themselves in the
attribute that.
Defines the arc of the story.
Yeah.
Whereas characterization is allthe other thoughts and details
(37:05):
about this character that are.
Periphery.
Per referral.
To that, That story.
But they still, they still helpus flesh out the character.
It's important to kind ofexplore those things, but.
the most important part of thatis that, that fulcrum, that core
belief, which, which leads tothat core.
Change or arc.
(37:26):
Perhaps this podcast is asimplification of the craft of,
character writing, but I thinkit's a, it's been.
A helpful reminder to me, thediscussion of the key principles
that help us to, Think about andapproach and write and create
characters.
And if we can't do that, then wecan't really tell stories in my
opinion.
Yeah.
I've enjoyed it.
(37:46):
I feel like I.
Have some takeaways.
I want to go.
Work on.
And this story now, and thankyou so much for listening with
us.
If you have thoughts, we'd loveto hear them.
We love hearing from ourlisteners.
Feel free to send us an email orreach out if there are podcasts.
Ideas topics that you want us tocover or comments that you have
(38:07):
based on what we've shared.
We love that kind of interactionwith you guys.
So thanks for listening.
Thanks.
We'll see ya.
Bye.
Hi, welcome to the podcasttoday.
we've, we're going to start bytalking about creating
character.
And what that means.
So Kent and I had a discussionas we were on a walk with the
family today about.
How do you develop a character?
And that there are so manythings that come into play with
(00:43):
characters.
There's their history.
Their reactions to the thingsaround them.
Their occupations, theirpassions, their relationships.
There's so many ways that youcan develop a character.
but we want to talk about.
What that really is because in away, all of those things are.
Kind of external and charactermight be something deeper than
(01:06):
that.
Just like.
In art, if you're drawing.
person, you have to understandhow bone structure works.
To be able to draw the figureaccurately, but you're not going
to actually see the bonesnecessarily.
In the finished product.
And so there's something to thatwith character development as
well that we want to get into.
(01:26):
Yeah.
so welcome to Huddleston pond.
It's a little pond, a littleways from our house.
And if you close your eyes,you'll join us on our
conversation.
As we wrangled children and walkaround, Uh, cloudy day.
And there are ducks and.
A lot of.
Bird poop on the on ground.
(01:46):
And Anna and I aretroubleshooting a script that
Anna is currently writing andtalking about character.
And why do certain charactersdecide to do something?
And how do you motivate them andwhat makes a character change?
And these are sort of the thingswe were talking about.
And so.
We've had some thoughts aboutthat.
and like Anna talked about.
(02:08):
This, this sort of.
I don't know, a metaphorical wayof.
Of thinking about it.
We talked about.
There's all these ways that wecan reveal character.
But.
What is character?
You know, and so that's the, thebones, there's like this idea
that there's bones underneath.
Flesh, you know, But, but wenever really see that like a
(02:31):
movie's in capable of showing.
That you know, for what ittruly, truly is.
but it can show all sorts ofthings to suggest to the
audience.
To give them an idea of whatthat is.
And, and so I guess I'll startby asking.
what Ana.
Would you say his character?
I was just going to ask youthat.
(02:52):
I beat you to it.
You have ideas already.
no.
If you asked me, I would, mybrain would immediately start
searching for it, but I'm goingto make you do the work first.
I mean, I think character is.
Largely determined by ourreactions to the circumstances
around us, how we choose toreact internally with our
(03:14):
thoughts.
Feelings.
And then eventually the actionsthat are manifest on screen.
And so it's something that.
It's not so black and white orsimple as to say, oh, well, You
know, in all of these types ofsituations, this character
reacts.
Angrily.
(03:34):
And in these other situations,the characteristics.
Happily.
I think that it's, A very hardthing to put your finger on, but
essentially it's, the patterns.
In the ways that we respond to.
The things around Hm.
So there's patterns, Malik.
That's an interesting idea.
(03:55):
You know, it makes me think ofRobert.
a key.
Who wrote a book called story.
And I remember one thing thatstuck with me from when I read
that years ago, I was in highschool actually.
I grabbed a copy of it.
Off of like a Barnes and noblebookshelf, He, he said that a
lot of novice writers.
Or not novice writers for thatmatter will, will be like trying
(04:18):
to create more character in acharacter, you know?
And he says that what they'll dois they'll say, oh, he was in
prison and he's, dashinglyhandsome.
But now he's out of prison andhe's reformed his ways and he
plays the saxophone and he, youknow, and they just keep like
throwing stuff.
You know, information.
on, on this person as if that'sgoing to like somehow flesh out
(04:41):
the character, you know, and hesaid, This is characterization,
and we need to understand thedelineation.
Between character.
And characterization.
And so characterization or likeattributes.
Talents or skills or informationabout a character.
And maybe I need to go back andreread story, but I don't
(05:03):
remember him ever actually likeclearly defining what character
itself is.
And I think most people.
In like casual conversation, butsay something similar to what
you were alluding to Anna, whichis.
Character is like, What we do,you know, even Robert McKee
actually, that's basically whathe said is he said, we define
(05:24):
character by showing whatsomeone does in a high stress
situation.
And so he talks about why wehave stories that put a lot of
pressure on a character becausewhat they choose to do when the
pressure's really high.
Reveals who they are.
And, you know, that's, that's,that's reminds me of CS Lewis
who said.
(05:45):
Circumstances do not make theman.
They reveal him to himself.
Hmm.
so there's a lot there.
I think these are differentpeople trying to express what
his character, which is such ana theorial, it's almost a
concept.
Yeah.
I like where you're going withthat.
Like, That in a high stresssituation, how do you respond?
But I also think character is.
(06:05):
How do you respond when you'rereally happy?
Like, how do you respond?
In all sorts of situations.
When you're getting to knowsomeone when you're dating, for
example, You want to see thatperson could argue that that's
high stress.
Well, sometimes.
Do you want to see that personin a variety of circumstances?
And I remember my mom telling methis, like, what is, you know,
(06:28):
see what that person is likewhen they're angry, see what
they're like when they'restressed, see what they're like
when they're happy and kind of,or when they're with their
family or with kids.
Yeah, exactly.
And that gives you.
A well-rounded.
View of that person's character.
And so maybe.
That could be useful andcharacter development for me to
say, how does this character.
(06:50):
Act around these kinds of peopleor in these kinds of situations
and just take.
Some common ones, you know, likefor sure.
You want to know how they actwhen they're, when they're
tired, when they're stressed,when they're angry, those are
common.
You know, and something that youwere making me think of.
What does that word?
It starts with an L that's whenyou're falling in love with
someone.
(07:11):
Limerence limerence yeah, youwere reading about how like
limerence is the word thatdescribes the.
The state that we're in, whenwe're falling in love with
someone.
So.
It's that state where we onlysee the good.
And so even when you do put themin all those circumstances, it's
like, of course we're going tobe on our best behavior when
we're like dating someone.
And we're around kids.
We're going to be like thesweetest.
(07:31):
We can be around kids, or whenwe first meet their mom, we're
going to try and make the bestimpression we can.
And even if we don't do a greatjob of it, the other person's
probably going to be like, youknow, you just see past it.
Anyway, I bring that up becauseI feel like there's sort of an
anti limerence.
I'm sure there's a word Thataudience's experience and films.
When they're watching a movieand I feel like it's actually
(07:52):
interesting because I feel like.
We were talking about thisearlier this week.
And I'm where we feel like whenwe're honest, when we say,
though, this is kind ofrealistic, what we think that
maybe even this is what I woulddo in these circumstances when I
would get frustrated with mykids I do this thing.
We've, we've done this in a lotof scripts where we're like,
well, but this is, this is arealistic.
Behavior.
(08:13):
And then people read it and theysay, we hate this character.
And we're like, that hurts myfeelings because I feel like
this is a really a reflection ofmyself and it feels very
realistic.
And I think most of us have.
Lost our tempers horribly with,with our own And.
Behaved in ways that we wouldfeel so embarrassed about if we
(08:34):
could see that.
Played back for the same way wewould feel is if we could see
our childhood tantrums, youknow, and then that's not a
justification, but I do thinkthat it's common in the sense
that we're all trying.
And yet.
I'll show this to I'll show, youknow, we'll show scripts to
people.
And what we realized was thateven if we're being honest or
(08:54):
realistic, Is it going to auntielimerence, you know, like it's
like a high amount of judgmenttowards characters.
We really want people who aregoing to be a little more
heroic.
But, I mean, maybe that'stangential, but like what makes
someone root for a character?
Because ironically, I rememberon the page, when you read the
script for, for example, toystory, the first one from 95.
(09:18):
would he just, he reads like anall out jerk.
and no one cares when they watchthat movie, man, the beginning
of that movie, he's sabotaginghe's selfish, he's insecure.
He's judgmental.
He's, he's scared that buzz isgoing to take his spot as like
the big cheese.
And he's.
You know, he's really.
(09:41):
He's kind of awful and yet.
He has some charisma and he is agood leader and Buzz's kind of a
dope anyway.
For rooting for him to get ridof this weird space toy.
And yet.
Like, he kind of deserveseverything he gets.
He, he, he does a lot of things.
Pretty selfishly.
And so.
(10:02):
What is it that makes.
Woody someone we root for.
And what is it that make somecharacters?
Maybe not as well written bypeople.
Like, I don't know me.
Hard to root for, even ifthey're quote unquote realistic.
You know, and.
And what does that have to sayabout this discussion we're
having about the definition ofcharacter?
(10:22):
And not just the definition, butthe podcast I hope is, you know,
leads to, how do we createcharacter or how do we
communicate character?
Yeah.
I mean, what comes to my mind isthe simple definition of a story
that it's someone who's tryingto do something and having a
hard time.
But what is it trying to.
(10:43):
Who wants something badly and ishaving a hard time getting it.
Like I said it wrong and thenmess it Just keep trying.
It's hard, but you'll get it.
and I think that that basicpremise is so relatable.
To me, everyone knows what it'slike to want something badly and
(11:04):
have a hard time getting And soI think that characters where
it's very clear that they havean objective.
They really want to win over thegirl or they really want.
You know, too.
Figure out their career.
I don't know, whatever.
They really want something and.
(11:25):
And I think if we can lock intothat, that helps me relate to
characters.
I think that it's hard to relateto them when they feel passive
and they feel like they're justkind of.
Reacting.
Hmm.
Well, that's true.
And you know, if a characterisn't.
Wanting and taking action towardsomething.
(11:46):
It's true that we sort of.
How can we root for them?
What are we rooting for?
Yeah.
And, and so, and it's, I.
I mean, I pushed back on myself.
Right?
I'm talking about this from theplace of like audience
engagement, you know, to helpthem.
Participate in the story.
(12:07):
But ultimately like, It's notlike the objective has to be
that we root for theprotagonist.
I am leaving space open for thatbecause I don't, that's not the
ends.
That's usually a means.
It's a means for engaging in.
Helping encourage audienceparticipation, but it's true.
how are they going to.
(12:29):
Care.
About a character.
If the character doesn't careabout anything, you know,
Someone might be able to answerthat, you know, maybe if I give
it enough thought I could thinkof an exception, but.
but for the most part, it's aquestion that I think leads us
to a decently.
universal conclusion in thewriting world, which is It's
hard.
You it's easier to.
(12:49):
Push a character, not push acharacter, Right.
A character that wants somethingdeeply and.
And usually that requires somevulnerability on the part of the
writer.
I think we usually have to thinkabout like, It doesn't have to
be personal.
Like what.
Do I want, but.
And that often works well, youknow?
Coming from a place of, ofdesire.
(13:10):
But I think that the characteralso needs to have an arc.
Right.
So they have to change somehowin the end.
It really doesn't matter if theyget what they want or not.
As long as they become who theyneed to be.
And so we need to get a senseof.
Where they're falling short.
How they overcome that orchange?
(13:32):
And I think that makes forcharacters that are.
I don't know that feel good.
Feel good.
You know, for some reason what'scoming to my mind and mean, and
you can plug in whatever movieyou want.
You can do this all day, right?
But for some reason, I think abeautiful example of this is the
protagonist in the films, thesound of metal.
(13:55):
He's such an.
Exquisite.
Example of a characters wants.
Which are desperately intense.
Versus a character.
Which are significant, right.
And so he's experiencing thesewants.
A lot.
Basically, he loses his hearingand he's a drummer and, his
(14:19):
world is gone.
It's like falling apart.
And it feels like his wholeworld is ripped away from him,
which is a standard first act intraditional Western three-act
structure.
Screenwriting.
Storytelling for that matter.
and so now it's, it's evidentthat when his girlfriend.
Leaves him to be in this.
(14:40):
Home for the deaf where he'sbasically going to go through.
some sort of a rehabilitationof, of some kind.
Because you don't learn.
ASL and form relationships andwhatever.
His whole mission is to get hishearing back.
So that he can get his lifeback.
That's it.
That is the bottom line.
(15:01):
And the only way he can see todo that is like scrape enough
money together to.
Get this operation, which isreally expensive to restore some
sense of hearing.
So that he doesn't have to.
Communicate with people throughASL.
And the end of that movie kindof.
I don't Without spoiling.
(15:22):
And I really want to encouragepeople to watch that film.
It's really wonderful.
But there's, there's this sortof like total loss and there's a
sense of, his needing What hewants is his hearing back.
He wants his old life back, butwhat he needs is to basically
look forward to a new life andfind some sense of peace.
Like let go of this yearningdesire.
(15:44):
And.
Embrace the silence, literalsilence in this case.
And, It's actually asignificantly spiritual film in
my opinion, by the end.
That character feels well To me.
And he's, he's pretty simple.
You imagine a musician.
(16:04):
Who loses his hearing and how.
You know, Earth shattering.
That is, and this is often thecase, right?
We think about.
What's the worst possible thingthat could happen to this
character.
Do that to them, you know?
we talk about that.
I feel like a lot inscreenwriting, right?
It's not, I, it's not like I'mthe first person to say this.
(16:27):
but why is that?
Because that will plunge theminto a fit of wanting something
badly.
You know, it's like, that willput them in a situation of deep
strain and desire and it'sgonna.
Review that's going to causetheir character to kind of spill
out.
Through all these.
Reactions and actions and wordsand deeds and, and the paths
(16:51):
they choose to take.
And.
All the changes that ensue intheir life are going to kind of
reveal that, not just tothemselves as CS Lewis said, but
to the audience.
Well in a way that's true foreveryone.
I think we all have to changethrough a series of rebirths,
you know, where you have to letgo of who you were to become
(17:12):
someone new.
And so that entails a loss ofsome sort or a sacrifice or.
A letting go.
In order to become somethingnew.
And so.
It makes sense that that wouldbe a catalyst.
Hm.
For change.
(17:32):
That's really thoughtful.
I wonder about, How Christ talksabout needing to become like a
little child and why childrenhave such an ability to let go
of things and forgive people.
And.
Change and adapt right there.
So malleable and fluid.
And I think part of that isbecause they don't have much to
(17:53):
hold on to.
First of all, they're not inmuch.
They don't have much powerright.
Over their own lives.
Adults, mostly direct theirlives for them.
And second of all, they don'thave much history, so they
haven't, they haven't built uplike hardened preferences and.
You know, a list of pretty bigdecisions for the most For most
(18:13):
children, life is.
It's just constantly fluid.
And so like that act of lettinggo of something and moving
forward and making it personalchange.
And.
Kind of going with the flow andeven growing.
It's very natural to a child.
Well, and I also think that whatthat refers to cause there's
also scriptures about, when Iwas a child.
(18:34):
I did things as a child and nowI've put away childish things,
right?
Like, He's not telling us to bechildish.
Right.
And I think that being like achild, the thing that most
defines someone who is childlikeis their dependence.
Dependence on an adult figure toprovide for them and to guide
(18:55):
And I think.
For me, it's, it's morerelational.
Being like a child.
Is relying on Christ.
And realizing that we depend onhim, which sometimes comes from.
Trying to do things ourselves,failing miserably.
Being humbled to the dust andrecognizing We can't do it
(19:18):
without him.
And.
And so we enter that childlikestate of dependence.
In our relationship to him.
So, what does that have to dowith character?
I'm not, I'm not getting, I'mnot getting I'm not getting
after you.
I think, well, I don't, I, it'snot a tangent.
I think it's all relevant.
I ask it because I think thatthere might be some
(19:40):
Realizations, you know, thatcould come from pulling these
things together because forexample, in.
That that's not just our ownpersonal religious worldview.
But I think that understandinghow human beings actually work
and what is the nature.
Of human beings.
Is a good way to, you know, themore knowledge we gain about
(20:01):
that, the more we canaccurately.
Build.
And interpret and anticipateactions of characters.
It makes us better writers, youknow, I think what you're
getting at is, I think somepeople might have the worldview
it's opposite.
They might believe no.
We need to take control of ourlives.
We need to.
And there might be some validityto that, right?
(20:23):
It's this balance between, Sortof grace and agency, right?
This ability and, andresponsibility to act and make
decisions versus this trusting.
That no matter what happens,we'll be okay.
Kind of a thing, you know, it'slike Just difficult almost at
odds.
something that we've listenedto, a guy named Jared Halverson,
talk about polarities, right?
(20:44):
Yeah.
Haydel's dialectical thinkingkind of stuff.
Yeah.
And I think at the core of allof this is sort of a question
about.
How do we change?
Is it that we are dependent andwe can only change.
Through Christ or is it that wetake hold of our life and.
(21:05):
And decide to make positivechange, or is it a combination
of who is it up to?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Ultimately.
Does that.
I mean, well, the reason I thinkwhat you're asking is so
important.
I mean, and you can toss it upand go, okay, these are
difficult philosophical orreligious questions.
But what do they have to do withscreenwriting?
(21:26):
The reason I think it's actuallyimportant to screenwriting.
Is because I think that thoseare probably the two big
worldviews on how do we change?
Does it depend on somethingoutside of ourselves or
something inside of ourselves?
If outside, what is it?
And if inside, what is it?
And, The answer to that questionhas a lot to do with the way we
(21:46):
write characters and the way wewrite stories.
And.
the way we tell stories and theway actors act.
Characters and stories, right.
And the way directors.
Make choices about.
When to do another take andwhich take to choose in the edit
like that, worldview will affectthe way you make movies.
And, and so I think those arevalid and important questions to
(22:10):
ask ourselves and to ponder onbecause it allows us to more
thoughtfully decide.
Which take to use.
You know, Or whatever characterwork, what to say to an actor,
what to ride on the page?
Yeah.
All these things.
And so.
Right now something I think youand I have talked a lot about is
that like the capacity to changeand to, even use our agency to
(22:34):
change.
is given to us by the grace ofGod and yet.
The decisions we make.
Our.
A result of our own wills.
Like we must choose.
To follow a path and, and so.
That's the religious side of it,but from like a S a writing side
(22:57):
of it, that means I'm going to,you know, I believe that
characters on the one hand arenot necessarily a product of
their circumstances.
And yet circumstances.
Have the by-product ofcharacter, you know, especially
high intensity circumstancesthat draw character out of
people, you know?
I don't know if I phrased thatin a way.
(23:18):
I made much sense.
Oh, they reveal the character, Isuppose, but I guess.
In my mind, I'm kind of thinkingof it right now is almost as
simple algorithm or like aamaze, you know, that.
We're presented with decisionsand we Choices.
And often I think when I've seencharacters and movies change,
(23:41):
you see them make the same sortof choice over and over again
and fail, fail, fail.
And then they have to have someenlightenment at some point,
some sort of a realization or abreakthrough.
That causes them to make adifferent choice.
And.
then even often that seems likeit fails, but ultimately it
(24:04):
doesn't.
And so there's sort of this,like, yeah, you're taking
action.
You're making decisions, but werely on Revelation or that, That
inspiration to know how to makea better choice or what to do
instead.
And maybe it's throughadditional information.
Like they get a little bit more.
(24:25):
A bigger view of the puzzle andthey finally go, oh, okay.
I'm going to change the way Iapproach this and going back to
sound of metal.
I think it's interesting becausehe, he fights and fights and
fights to, to reunite with hisgirlfriend and to reclaim his
old life.
And then he does reunite withthat girlfriend and can
(24:48):
immediately see by her behaviorthat.
Them separating, allowed her toexperience some growth that she
really needed.
And then coming back together,he realized was going to cause
her to revert back to the same.
Problems that she had beenstruggling with.
And that revelation, thatcontrast the experience that he
(25:08):
had had through act two of theEssentially.
Gave him the perspective in thatmoment to be able to see like,
We serve each other.
The relationship service to getus to a certain point in our
lives.
And now.
It's best that I let her go.
And walk away from this and hecouldn't see that in act one.
(25:30):
And he wasn't with her and hertwo and an X three.
He finally is in a position withthe necessary experience and
perspective to be able to seethat.
And that's when you realize thischaracter has grown, like he
never would've walked away fromher.
That was like world ending forhim and act one.
That was, it seemed like it wasgoing to destroy him, at least
(25:51):
in his mind.
And now that he's with heragain, he's, he's grown enough.
I learned enough, you know, seenenough that he, like you said,
It makes a different decision inthe S in a similar circumstance.
Yeah, and they do that verybeautifully.
And.
I'm not sure if you had thoughtsor, or examples that were in
(26:12):
your own mind, but I went backto the same one to illustrate
the point.
I think there's tons of examplesin my own life and in movies.
I mean, we just watched Lalaland, so that's fresh on my
mind.
I know.
I don't get tired of that one.
And that's another example whereshe's trying the same thing over
and over again.
(26:33):
Auditioning, auditioning.
Trying to make it as an actress,going to events like parties,
networking.
And it's failing every time.
It's not actually leading her tothe success she wants.
And then, Sebastian RyanGosling's character comes into
her life and he's sort of the.
The catalyst for a differentapproach saying like, well, why
(26:55):
don't you write something asinteresting as you And she, he
provides.
As our advice to everyonelistening to this podcast, but
we'll get to that later.
For sure.
He provides for her to be ableto quit her job and right.
one act play and do this play.
And it feels like even that hascompletely failed and the
(27:15):
relationship fails and no oneshows up to her play and she
can't pay back the theater andshe's all sad.
But ultimately there was someonethere who saw it and cast her in
something vague.
And that was.
A big break for her, but it'ssort of this, like, She was just
going to keep trying the samething.
Forever.
If it hadn't been for RyanGosling's character stepping in.
(27:38):
And.
Making some change there.
And that was sort of like whytheir relationship was
meaningful, even though theydidn't end up together.
She helped her to see what sheneeded to do.
To achieve what she was tryingto achieve.
And so sometimes I think.
God works through other people.
Sometimes he inspires usdirectly.
(28:00):
And sometimes it takes us sometime to actually like, Apply.
What, what keeps coming to usthat we need to to believe that
it will actually work.
Enough to do it.
And, you know, Let's just, I'mjust gonna throw this out here.
If you're listening and you'rethinking, well, what if I don't
have the same, like religiousperspectives as you, I don't
(28:20):
think it matters in the terms ofthe craft of screenwriting, that
you share our perspectives.
I mean, it matters in.
Whatever end goal you have forwhat you're communicating with
those films, but those goalsmight be different, you know?
They're always gonna bedifferent for different people.
We're all different humanbeings.
But, But I guess my point is, isthat I really believe that it's
not a date of six.
Maquina kind of a situationwhether God's completely in
(28:43):
control or not.
I think that life itself.
was designed and set up in away.
And I think we kind of have tobelieve this whether we're
religious or not, if we'rescreenwriters that the nature of
this world.
Will always drive us to a point.
Where, what we hold dear is atstake and we have to make
(29:04):
decisions in the midst of thosestakes.
Like it is just the way of life.
It's why great stories work.
The way they do.
And that's why I think thoseprinciples.
Our universal.
Yeah.
And it's been the same since.
You know, Sir gallon and thegreen Knight and Hansel and
Gretel.
And.
Something Star wars andwhatever, you know, Plug it in,
(29:27):
but like people, you know, lifeis about.
This journey that we're all on,where we're having to make these
choices.
And.
And at the end of many choices.
We learned something.
I mean, an example of a verysmall character arc is a.
Exquisite film like Manchesterby the sea.
I mean, it's not like he's like.
(29:48):
Totally healed and made thishuge arc by the end of And yet
you yearn for him and he'sdealing with a big, difficult
circumstance, and he's trying tofigure something and by the end,
like his Teeny tiny.
I mean, It's not like, you know,he pulls the sword out of the
(30:09):
stone or anything.
And yet the experience ofwatching that film still sucks
you in, you know?
Yeah.
It's that whole, something willalways force us to face.
Ourselves our own weaknesses,our own.
Fears.
And.
And even though we may try torun or hide from those, they
keep appearing in differentplaces until eventually.
(30:32):
We have to face that we have to.
Confront them in some sort ofdifferent way, because there is
no escaping.
Yeah.
I've really enjoyed thisconversation so far with you,
and I'm not sure.
If you want to keep pushing itfarther.
And see where we go.
The, some things to recap, Iguess what we've learned so We
(30:53):
talk about what his character.
Let's let's it presents,presents similar circumstances
that we began with in the firstact of this podcast.
And present them at the end ofthe podcast by asking, how would
you define character?
Well, did I ever ask you.
I mean, I think I talked to thatpoint, but ask me.
(31:15):
Well, how would you definecharacter?
I defined it.
Well, I quoted Robert McKee isdefining it as what someone does
in high stress circumstance.
All.
And I would say.
Y.
I would ask, why do they do.
That.
Why do they make that choice inthe high stress circumstance?
(31:39):
And the answer to that, why Ithink is closer to what actually
defines character.
We define character for theaudience by showing them what
that character does in thehigh-stress circumstance, but
that's not necessarily whatcharacter is.
What it is, is the reason whythey make that choice.
And the reason why they makethose choices might be.
circumstantial, which you canshow the audience like, oh, well
(32:01):
it's clear that he did thatbecause.
His mortgage depended on it, orwho's the life of so-and-so was
on the line or whatever.
But, But that, just reveals, Ithink.
Their beliefs.
So if anything, I would definecharacter as I won't say
thoughts, I guess.
The word beliefs means thoughtsthat we believe are true.
(32:23):
And so it has to be more thanjust an idea that the character
has.
It's the actual beliefs that thecharacter holds, you know, and I
think that defines And.
Before I forget.
I'd like to tie that into whatsomething you actually set on
our conversation for thepodcast.
Which you mentioned will Smithwho had an acting.
(32:44):
seminar lecture.
And masterclass.
Yeah, he, he talked about howcharacter is a construct and how
he realized this because hecheating And he found himself.
Becoming in real life, thatperson.
And he said, that's kind of, itwas kind of scary for him.
And, and he realized at thatmoment, Character and movies as
a construct, but in real life,it's a construct.
(33:05):
It's something we decide tocreate.
And so.
It's interesting.
And I won't go deep into theacting part of it, but just this
idea that like, In reality andin screenwriting, in the art of
creating characters.
The beliefs we have when weunderstand that that is what we,
what is driving our decisions.
We can.
(33:25):
We can analyze and reconstructthose beliefs.
That can be hard work sometimes.
And sometimes life forces us toreconsider our beliefs for
better and for worse.
But those beliefs that we.
Choose.
And sometimes.
Maybe you don't realize wechose, you know, maybe we don't
realize some of the beliefs thatwe have developed.
(33:48):
You know, especially the oneswe've developed from childhood.
But whatever those beliefs are,they exist.
And, those are what are driving.
Our choices and they beliefs arespecially manifest in high
stress circumstances or highstakes circumstances.
Yeah.
I love that.
And I think that that doesapply, especially in filmmaking,
(34:08):
just because filmmaking is asimplification of real life.
It's a microcosm of, you know, awhole person and.
And so it could almost be assimple as.
One particular thing that thecharacter believes.
Or one particular aspect oftheir character.
M one trait.
(34:30):
That.
And in real life, that's how wechange is one.
Thing at a time, you know,little, little changes at a time
to little aspects of ourcharacter.
It's not usually an, an overhaulof all of our attributes at
once.
We kind of Realizations.
Slowly we grow into them andchange them.
(34:51):
but.
It makes me think that if I wereto write a character and try to
develop them, I might focus onone particular aspect.
an example that came to mindwas.
The secret life of Walter Mitty.
And how does he react in a highstress situation?
He imagined something.
Like magical and adventurous.
(35:12):
He imagines himself the way hewishes he was or the way he
wishes he could be in thatsituation and actually zones
out.
It's like a protective, Way ofescaping what is his reality and
trying to run from his reality,which he eventually.
Can no longer do.
Yeah.
He starts to like his arc.
Is sort of catalyzed by adecision to embrace the
(35:34):
situation as it is.
And.
And confront.
Reality.
Which I think is reallyinteresting.
I think about it makes me thinkabout, The beginning when he's
trying to reach out to a woman.
On a dating website when heactually has like, like, And in
the flesh sort of likerelationship with this person at
(35:56):
work, which, they've neveractually spoken to each other,
but he's, he's hoping that thiswas a better way somehow to
connect with this person.
And.
ultimately he realizes that thebest way to connect with that
person is like, And in theactual literal word world.
and so.
Once again, that's, that's anexample of displaying arc.
(36:19):
but those decisions, what arehis beliefs?
What are, I mean, you don'tspell them out in the
screenplay, right?
And that would kind of ruin theart.
Right.
But my point is that it justfocuses in on that one aspect of
his personality.
And we get some of the otheraspects as we see it play out.
But they're not They're not thefulcrum of the story.
(36:41):
Which everything there is asimplification of.
One aspect of his personality.
And maybe that's the delineationbetween character and
characterization.
Character The beliefs or the.
You know, the beliefs thatmanifest themselves in the
attribute that.
Defines the arc of the story.
Yeah.
Whereas characterization is allthe other thoughts and details
(37:05):
about this character that are.
Periphery.
Per referral.
To that, That story.
But they still, they still helpus flesh out the character.
It's important to kind ofexplore those things, but.
the most important part of thatis that, that fulcrum, that core
belief, which, which leads tothat core.
Change or arc.
(37:26):
Perhaps this podcast is asimplification of the craft of,
character writing, but I thinkit's a, it's been.
A helpful reminder to me, thediscussion of the key principles
that help us to, Think about andapproach and write and create
characters.
And if we can't do that, then wecan't really tell stories in my
opinion.
Yeah.
I've enjoyed it.
(37:46):
I feel like I.
Have some takeaways.
I want to go.
Work on.
And this story now, and thankyou so much for listening with
us.
If you have thoughts, we'd loveto hear them.
We love hearing from ourlisteners.
Feel free to send us an email orreach out if there are podcasts.
Ideas topics that you want us tocover or comments that you have
(38:07):
based on what we've shared.
We love that kind of interactionwith you guys.
So thanks for listening.
Thanks.
We'll see ya.
Bye.
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