November 4, 2022 • 37 mins
Do you think that you need to give up everything in your life to get your feature film off of the ground? The opposite may actually be true.
Sacrificing your lifestyle will only deplete your store of creativity and contacts that can lead to the very connections and resources you need.
Keeping your day job can provide a safety net that allows you more creative freedom.
Tune into this episode to learn about why a practical self-paced approach can lead to a better feature film career.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Anna (00:21):
All right.
Welcome to the podcast.
This is take two of episode 89.
So we actually recorded thewhole podcast episode and we
always check our mic.
Before we record, we do like atesting 1, 2, 3, make sure it
sounds good.
And today we forgot to do that.
And of course, when we finishedthe whole recording.
(00:41):
Really good episode, by the way.
Hopefully we can match it.
We went to listen to the audioand my mic was slightly
unplugged and it just soundedterrible.
I don't even know.
What happened?
But it wasn't a good connection.
So this is take two and maybewe'll be even better and more
succinct this time.
(01:02):
But we want to talk about howyou support yourself financially
while making feature films.
And a few other things alongthose lines.
Especially getting your careeroff the ground for the first
time.
before Before you eventually aremaking money.
As a feature filmmakerexclusively.
And
Kent (01:21):
as an added benefit to you, it'll be about 10 to 20
minutes shorter than the lastepisode.
Because.
I don't have the patients torecord this again.
So Anna, I want to talk to you alittle bit about, Why is it?
Why aren't we talking aboutthis?
Why.
Is this a struggle?
To make the first feature filmfinancially, not just like
(01:41):
raising money, but especiallybecause.
The first features are oftenunder, if not completely
unfunded.
And yet they can be reallywonderful and they're super,
super productive.
In terms of, you know, Our film,critters and whatnot.
So because so few of us can get.
(02:04):
True.
Living wages are first features.
It's not like something weshould expect to get a lot of
money from at least on the frontend.
cause we can't command.
Day rates in what are some ofthe obstacles in your mind?
that you've heard from clientsand that we've experienced
ourselves to financiallysupporting yourself through your
first feature.
Anna (02:24):
Yeah.
So, first of all, before we evenget to that, I do want to
emphasize that 100%.
We believe that you can make acareer making feature films,
where that's all you do andthat's paying your bills.
And that is the whole point ofthe feature filmmaker academies
to get to, to that point.
It's just the bridging the gapin between that becomes kind of
(02:44):
difficult because you can't.
Usually make that big of a leap.
Right right away.
You have to start with smallersteps and honestly, That is
still the biggest obstacle.
I think that people face is justin your mind, this mentality of
trying to make too big of astep.
(03:04):
On your first film, trying tomake that leap.
Immediately into the end resultthat you want to And so you're
going to fall short.
You're going to stumble.
You're going to fall if you'retrying to jump too far, but if
you just take steps at a time,you can go far.
And you can do all of thosethings in the end.
It's just a matter of how do youget there?
(03:25):
How do you bridge that gap?
And so I think.
The biggest thing I see ispeople coming in and saying,
I've got this great idea.
I've done tons of work on it.
I've written a screenplay.
I've got a team I've got shotlists, whatever they've done.
Tons of preparation.
And all I need is$5 million.
And then we're ready to go.
I can totally do this.
(03:47):
And that's
Kent (03:48):
great.
I think that's rare by the waythat anyone's gone.
It's actually rare that anyonetakes the project to that far.
Usually they're waiting for the$5 million way before they need
it.
But for the sake of discussion,let's assume that they've got
everything done short of raise$5million.
Sure.
Anna (04:01):
And most people have varying degrees of progress that
they've made, whatever thatlooks like.
So they bring what they've doneso far and they feel confident
up until that point of, ofgetting the funding.
And so.
Yeah, they teach us a way to getmoney in film school that does
work once you're an establishedfilmmaker.
So yeah.
Get a name, actor attached andthen a studio can.
(04:24):
They come with a minimumguarantee and you can take that
to the bank and there's there'smethods that you can use that
will work, but they don't.
Typically work.
If you're a first time filmmakername actors don't want to work
with first time directors.
Almost ever.
Now it doesn't mean you can'treach out and try, you can.
But first get some funding, andbe prepared to make the movie
(04:48):
for a smaller budget.
And then if, if a name actorcomes on and you can raise more
funds.
Great.
You just can't plan on that.
And so I think mentally first weneed to take that first film and
just like, I don't want to be adream crusher here.
You absolutely can make a firstfilm.
It's just.
(05:08):
People are trying to get to thispoint so fast.
and so.
Expensively.
That they actually don't getthere at all.
Yeah, they
Kent (05:17):
want to get to this point.
What you're saying is like tothe point where they're making
money.
Off of feature filmmaking in away that they can pay off their
mortgage kind of thing.
But, but.
Even 5 million is kind ofconsidered a lower budget when
you're working like with unionsand stuff, you know?
And so the, The first featurefilm is totally make-able, but
(05:39):
you know, something that we'veseen a lot is that because the
first feature film has to have Xdollars behind its budget.
it's not dream crushing.
It's not.
Like we're telling you to slowdown.
You're actually slowing yourselfdown.
'cause a lot of people will siton a movie for five years and
(05:59):
say, all I need is the money.
As soon, any day now.
You know, and they'll sit thereand work it and work it and work
the phones and email and networkand put stuff out and make
shorts all day.
And shorts are great.
I think I recommend making shortcontent.
But.
until you've made a featurepeople aren't going to give you
(06:20):
that kind of money.
95% of the time.
And there's no way to know ifyou're an exception.
There's no secret formula.
unless you've built up a hugeaudience, another way, which you
can do, that'll also take fiveyears, you
Anna (06:34):
And even, yeah, even if have this belief that if I just
meet the right person withenough money, who believes in me
enough.
Even though I've never madeanother film to show for myself.
Then I could make this as thisamazing debut film.
Let's say that you do that forfive years and it works.
And you eventually find someonewith that much money who's
willing to invest in you.
(06:56):
You'll still be a betterfilmmaker.
Five years later, if you'dactually been practicing, making
feature films that whole time,and the way you met
Kent (07:03):
that person was making two small indie feature films, as
opposed to.
Networking and emailing, like toyour point and
Anna (07:09):
your chances of meeting someone who will invest in you
go way up as soon as you've madesomething.
And often they don't even seewhat you make.
It's just the fact that you'reable to make a feature film from
start to end.
And that you're competent enoughto handle that.
And honestly, It's I think that,that mental gap that we're
(07:30):
trying to, to bridge.
Is where most people get stuck.
And so if you can lean heavieron the side of like, I could
make a feature film tomorrow.
Literally you could, you couldgo today and roll.
Your phone camera.
For an hour and a half.
And make a 90 minute movie.
You don't even have to edit it.
(07:51):
If you don't To be short.
Yeah.
That's easy.
Yeah.
And there you go.
You're a feature filmmaker.
That alone.
It's something that most peoplecan't say, and then you could
Kent (08:01):
sell your iPhone and you would actually have made a
profit already.
You'd be a profitableprofessional feature
Anna (08:08):
filmmaker.
And then tomorrow we can scalefrom there.
Right?
I bet you could
Kent (08:12):
even convince people.
To buy that
Anna (08:16):
I'm sure you could get a few people to
Kent (08:18):
watch If you actually just vlogged it the whole time, like
a 90 minute vlog and walkedaround your house, recording Or
you didn't like necessarily vlogit.
Like you just, you got like oneof those Insta 360 cameras or
something, they kind of autopaints out the pole or
something.
And you just walked around intothat for 90 minutes and Rummage
around your house.
Oh man.
It'd be like a, it'd be like a,you could sell that to a museum.
(08:39):
It's like an art installation.
You could make thousands, youknow what we're going to do it.
That's a good idea.
Anyway.
Anna (08:50):
The point is that there is.
There are movies you can makeright now.
And that you have the resourcesright now to make something and
to practice, and that you'regoing to grow more as a
filmmaker by doing that.
Sorry.
Why are you
Kent (09:03):
asking me ideas about this?
90 minute movie that you make inone take.
What if it's a hike?
Just a 90 minute hike.
People do that all Fascinating.
There's all sorts of characterNo, don't steal my idea.
Listeners
Anna (09:20):
You can do it.
It's fine.
But here's the thing.
Most of us want to makesomething that's a little more
thoughtful than that.
And that's okay.
But I'm just saying lean alittle more towards this side of
what can I make right now withthe resources that I have.
And scale from there.
I want to be a featurefilmmaker.
I'm going to become one bypracticing making feature films.
(09:42):
That's what feature filmmakersdo.
So, if you want to be a featurefilmmaker, you make feature
films.
That's how you become one.
And no, that sounds Maybe kindof obvious.
And yet most of us aren't doingit.
We're trying to become one bytrying to get money.
That's not how you become afeature filmmaker.
And so.
scale back, I mean, or just keepyour idea as big as it is and
(10:06):
just wait and say, I'm going tomake a few other things.
First.
I'm going to make a proof ofconcept.
I'm going to make something thatshows what I can do right now.
And then I grow from there andthat's kind of the process that
we teach.
So.
That was a bit of a tangent,honestly.
But I think it's important toknow that first of all, it's
possible.
(10:27):
It's possible for you right now,where you are.
There are people who don't haveas much access to resources as
you are not as smart as you whomaybe don't have.
As many ideas as you who've madefeature films.
So, or they made them 10
Kent (10:42):
or 20 or 30 years ago when they had way less technological
democratization and resourcesavailable Once again, way more
limitations.
In maternity alone, we have.
We can shoot 4k pro Rez imageryout of our new iPhone.
And you can get those on paymentplans from T-Mobile or whatever.
(11:03):
With your phone bill, you know,it's like so democratized and
you can actually get decentimagery.
Out of the camera that fits inyour pocket.
Anna (11:14):
I mean, yeah.
I mean, that's how they shotTangerine, which is what it's
known for is, the same directorwho did the Florida project and
other bigger films later.
Kent (11:22):
So I haven't actually seen that movie.
but I've seen the trailer.
It was shot on a cell phone.
Honestly to me, it doesn't lookgreat.
Maybe it is.
I haven't.
Given it a try, but the point ismost feature filmmakers.
First films don't look thatgreat.
And most people don't see themor even know that they exist.
(11:44):
Do you mean visually or justlike overall?
Both.
Some look nice.
But like visually.
But yeah, most.
Most have.
Core struggles.
In some department, whethertechnical or usually narrative.
or performative or something,there's something that's.
(12:06):
But ultimately they all do theirown.
They do their job.
They don't have to be perfect.
And I think that that'ssomething we've talked about a
lot, is this idea of like, Notneeding.
To make Amazingly good.
Because we have to be bad atthings before we're good at
things, but the first featurealways puts us in the next.
It always uplevels our careersand puts us closer to.
(12:30):
making a career out of it wherewe're actually paying our bills
and supporting ourselvesfinancially.
But until then, the firstfeature itself.
What are some ways that you feellike.
Some things that make itfiscally feasible.
to actually complete it whenwe're not getting.
(12:50):
A ton of money or usually anymoney to, to make the thing in
the first place.
Yeah.
I mean, we can teach you toraise some financing, but it's
not going to be enough to liveoff of.
You're going to need.
All of it to make the best filmthat you can, which I assume
you'll want to do.
so we always recommend that youkeep.
Anna (13:10):
your day job, you know, keep something, that's a support
system, how you're supportingyourself.
Now you can continue to supportyourself that way.
And make a feature film.
On the side.
And there's this idea of like,what does it mean to go all I
think that some people mean thatthink that going all in means
that you let go of everythingelse.
(13:30):
And so you stopped doing yourday job.
You.
Give up on every other area ofyour life.
And sacrifice it all for makingthis one project.
But actually I think that thatputs you in a bad spot where
you're not able to take risksfinancially.
Or otherwise take creative risksbecause.
(13:51):
The stakes are so high.
So.
At the example that comes tomind for me as someone on a
tight rope, you know, if you'reon a tight rope and there's a
safety net or a trampoline orsomething below you to catch
you, if you fall.
Then you're going to be a lotmore free to try something
expressive, to do a trick, todo.
Something scary because if youfall.
(14:14):
You'll be okay.
And you don't want to fall, but.
But if you do.
You're still going to be okay.
So you're not.
Selling your house and beinghomeless, you know, to make this
happen or, taking risks whereyou can't afford.
To, you know, getting tons ofcredit card debt.
I don't recommend methods likethat can be.
(14:35):
Pretty dangerous.
But if you keep a day job, ifyou keep your life, then that's
going to inspire more creativityand take the pressure off so
that you're able to take thosecreative risks and actually make
something better.
And usually what happens is.
Sometimes people who dosacrifice everything on the
altar of the first film and ofthe film gods in general.
Kent (14:57):
usually their first and second films are really
successful.
but then they've nothing else tomake movies about because
they've, they've severed offtheir lives and their
livelihoods, not just theirlivelihoods, but their.
Their lives The relationshipsthere.
They're higher values.
And then all of a sudden.
They start to burn And there'sreally nothing to make films
about, or they just have tons ofmoney and they hire scripts from
(15:19):
screenwriters who do have.
Which sometimes that works outjust fine.
So maybe you can try that routeif you'd like, but, But I feel
like.
You know, This is aboutfinancially supporting yourself
emotionally and almostspiritually supporting yourself
throughout.
the first film sets a patternfor, and sort of an emo for
(15:41):
subsequent films in that youwill be able to continue to make
films that are actuallythoughtful and really
meaningful.
like you, said.
It's not.
about going all in it's aboutputting it all in, like you put
what you're learning throughlife and what it's like working,
you know, I don't know.
Maybe you're freelancing as afilmmaker, or maybe you're
(16:01):
working a day job.
Maybe you don't have anyfilmmaking experience.
Maybe you're going throughdifficult breakup.
Maybe you have.
A spouse and tons of littlekids, whatever that is.
It's like, you can put all thatperspective into really unique
storytelling and whatevercombination of.
Circumstances and experiencesthat you have.
That's going to feel greatcreativity, and it's going to be
(16:24):
really meaningful to people.
And that, that can also manifestitself in John or films.
I'm not saying that all of thathas to be domestic drama.
It can be, Whatever you find tobe energizing and creative.
But the point is, is that youcan do that over and over and
over again.
If you keep things together.
as opposed to throwing it allout, eh, Like you said, Maybe
(16:45):
you have a day job, but youmight have other means of
supporting yourself like we'refreelancers, where we have a
production company.
And, that has its advantages anddisadvantages, right?
Cause like when we're notworking, we're forgotten
earning.
We don't get quote-unquote paidtime off.
Right.
so there's pros and cons, butregardless.
Feature filmmaking as possiblewith any of those circumstances.
Anna (17:07):
Yeah.
What do you think, what wouldyou say to people who are trying
to get there through kind of aroundabout way?
Like, oh, I'll just make reallybig commercials and then become
a feature film director or I'llmake.
I'll make it as a weddingvideographer and then I'll move
into feature films.
Do you think that's productive?
Yes and no.
I think that all of those routescan work.
Kent (17:30):
I have two thoughts, the word then I think you could
replace with Andy.
Like, oh, I'll do this.
And then, I mean, that couldwork.
And honestly, there's peoplelike mark toy, for example, who,
who made it really big and incommercials.
And then he made his own filmand funded it for like a million
bucks.
so is he an exception kind Imean.
(17:52):
But at the same time, Not reallybecause he took decades building
that So once again, it's like,or you could do it at the same
time.
Just don't make a roboticexplosive.
Action film.
For a million dollars withinlike a semi name actor in it.
Just make.
(18:13):
Something.
Simpler.
But better even, you know, liketry and make a great story.
I'm not saying his movies.
A great story.
I have not even seen monsters ofman.
You can check it out and tellme, But.
you can.
You know, strong concepts don'thave to be expensive.
Great screenplays.
Don't have to be expensive toproduce.
(18:34):
And I guess the second thought Ihave on that is no matter what
point in your career, you decideto start making films.
You're either going to have todo it concurrently with what
you're doing right now, oryou're going to have to make a
hard right.
And pivot.
And what pivoting does is itcuts off all the money you're
making.
And so if you're like, I'm goingto make.
Commercials or I'm going to OrI'm going to work this day job.
(18:57):
That's really great.
I'm going to do this otherthing.
And then at some point I'm goingto stop.
And start making features.
You're going to watch yourincome plummet.
Now you can build that back upas you build your feature film
career.
But feature films.
Take a very long time to finish,especially if you don't have a
lot of money.
and even if you have a lot ofmoney, sometimes it still takes
(19:17):
a decent amount of And so.
you can do it.
Then.
You know, do something else,then make feature films or you
can do something else and makefeature films.
And I.
I feel like it's a smarter thingto make the film you're not
getting paid for while you'regetting paid to do something
else.
And it takes a long time, butwhen you're done.
(19:37):
You're in a much better positionto pivot.
Because now you have someportfolio.
And I know that sounds sillybecause portfolio is kind of
overrated sometimes, but there'salso, you have a ton of
education.
You know, you have a ton ofknowledge, you have
qualification and you have a tonof mistakes under your belt that
you know, okay.
On the next film, I know exactlyhow to get funded.
(19:57):
I'll get it funded twice asfast.
I know how to write a betterscript.
I know how to shoot better.
Edit better.
I mean, if you're doing thosejobs or if you're not, you know
how to get the better peoplebecause you know what you're
looking for now, you're, you'vemade all these mistakes and
you'll be able to combine theminto this huge core, some
feature filmmaking you're goingto bring with you in your mind.
On your, on your next project.
And then if you pivot.
(20:18):
You might be able to raise moremoney.
You might be able to raiseenough money to pay yourself.
You might be able to sell themovie in a way or distributed
herself distributed or findbuyers or have contacts with
sales agents or festivalcurators because you, you worked
and fought and failed on thisfirst one, but you built up your
network and your experience inyour education.
Now if you pivoted, you couldactually potentially survive
financially.
(20:39):
that's rarely the case on thefirst feature.
Yeah.
So it really doesn't matter whatwork you're doing to support
yourself while you make yourfilm.
In some ways, like you said, itmay be beneficial.
If you have a job that'ssomewhat related to film.
So you get to practice.
Anna (20:55):
But regardless, you can be practicing in your spare time
and you can be making a featurefilm with that spare time and
with the resources you have, andyou could be doing a day job,
that's completely different.
That's fine too.
Sometimes that's really nicebecause it makes it very easy to
separate work and passion.
and to kind of direct all yourcreative energy into the passion
(21:18):
projects and not be exhausted bythe end of the day of, of doing
film or doing creative stuff.
So.
There's affordances andlimitations to both.
But yeah, I would just say keepit all and keep moving forward.
And.
A little bit a day.
Adds up really fast, faster thanAnd As soon as you can start
(21:43):
making a feature film, it isdifferent than making shorts.
Shorts are good practice.
They are good to do.
But a feature film is if that'swhat you want to do.
And you practice that is goingto give you the best film
education you could ever get.
Now we're all for film andeducation.
Sorry at film school andeducation and learning as much
(22:04):
as you can, but learning allthat stuff in your head and
never applying it is not goingto be useful to And so go out
there and, and apply it.
And a lot of the case studieswe've studied of big directors
and how they get their start.
Is exactly this.
They are working day jobs.
They're doing this on weekends.
(22:25):
They're doing it in their sparetime with their friends.
With whatever they have accessto.
As far as equipment, as far as,people to help out in hands and.
Locations, things like that.
And you can make something goodwithin those creative
restraints.
And that can actually be part ofwhat makes your work so
interesting.
and part of the freedom of it.
(22:46):
Something, we, we also thought alot about is.
how creativity best functions.
I think that a certain amount ofconstraint is healthy for
creativity.
There's nothing.
To be creative about if youdon't have any problems to
solve, if you have endless moneyand endless resources.
It's actually very hard to becreative.
(23:08):
At the same time.
If you are expecting too much.
Out of the creativity and you'reputting tons of constraints and
tons of pressure on yourself,which by having, trying to take
too big of a step at first, youare doing that.
You're giving yourself moreconstraints.
The first time around.
(23:29):
You could actually crushcreativity that way too.
By saying, this has to supportme.
This has to make millions ofdollars.
This has to be a perfectproduction.
My debut film has to be amazing.
I think that's reallyinteresting to you to call those
constraints.
But they are.
It's like, I won't make ituntil.
Kent (23:47):
The circumstances exist.
But you're right.
Like that is.
Sabotaging your currentunnecessary constraints.
Putting on yourself.
That's like, that's like someonegoing into the corporate world
and saying, I will not have toaccept a job for under$200,000 a
year.
And it's like, or you could workjobs and work your way up to
that.
But on what planet do you expectto get paid out on your first
(24:09):
job?
You know, So, yeah, it's, it's,We do this for some reason as
filmmakers.
We're like, I have very littleexperience in this, but I want a
million dollar budget That'sjust what this requires and I
dream big enough.
I can make it happen.
Sometimes dreaming big enough isworking hard enough and working
hard enough is make it featuretoo.
Before that one.
(24:30):
You know, so yeah, I, It's.
That is dreaming.
You know, that is.
Sort of the undauntedperspective, not just sitting
there and demanding it of theworld.
Yeah, the universe, Well, andit's, Aye.
Helped out at a church girlscamp this last summer.
(24:51):
And we were talking about in thescriptures when it says With
faith, you can move a mountain.
And.
Kind of like what you wouldimagine moving a mountain to
look like.
And I think that for me, whatcomes to mind is like,
Anna (25:06):
They you say.
Lift up in the mountain, liftsand moves all on its own.
When actually it may be, get ashovel.
And start moving that mountainone scoop at a time and in the
same way with a film career, ifyou're trying to do something
grandiose and huge.
It may actually be impossible.
But if you're trying to do it astep at a time, And move closer
(25:28):
to it every day.
It is possible, and it might bebigger than you realize.
And at the end of it, you mightgo, whoa.
We made this thing for not verymuch money and it's pretty good.
It might be significantlyimpressive.
And that's, what's going to leadto numbers two and three and
four.
Kent (25:43):
Et cetera.
In terms of feature films and itdoesn't matter where you start,
even if it doesn't turn outgood, you.
You know, and it turns out to begarbage and, and maybe only a
few people like it, and it onlymakes a little bit of money.
If, if any.
But you scale each time it'sgoing to get better each time.
Cause you learned and you canapply what you learned the next
time
Anna (26:02):
Something interesting to talk about too, is.
Is something.
It's the idea that if you're ina hurry to get there, It's
probably because you think yourlife will be better.
Once you have that result, thiscan apply to feature films.
It can apply to when you havemoney, any goal, any goal that
you have.
We have a tendency to assume.
(26:23):
That once I reach a certaingoal, once I have a certain
result.
I'll be happier.
I'll be more confident and Ilike my life And in some ways,
It may be true that you'll growas a person and you may learn to
be more confident, for example.
But.
For most people.
that I see who do I reach thesegoals, and now I'm starting to
(26:46):
have been on this earth longenough to see people become
millionaires, to see people,reach their dreams and have
everything that they.
Thought that they ever wanted.
And they still aren't happy allthe time.
Really still there.
Life is 50, 50, 50% challenging,50% good.
And those challenges change.
(27:08):
But they're always there.
And so.
I think that sometimes that ideais sort of discouraging if you
think, well, why even bother ifmy life's not going to be any
better when I make a featurefilm and I'm really not going to
be happier because I've become afeature filmmaker.
Then why even do And I would saythat like the main reason why is
(27:29):
because you're going to grow somuch as a person.
And I think that's a huge partof why we're here is to to see
what we're capable of and toface new challenges and to
become more capable because welearn And we need to learn, you
know, it makes me also thinklike, you know, some people, for
example, if you could be handedthose circumstances, for
(27:49):
example,
Kent (27:50):
it could all just be given to you.
Lots of money to make yourfeatures with enough money to
provide for yourself.
And your debts are gone andyou're making movies for a
living.
And maybe even like, they'regetting good reviews and people
love you.
But.
That could all be gone.
And if that's where yourconfidence and security and joy
is built on.
(28:11):
Then it's all going to be gone.
And to your point, if you canlearn confidence and joy, And
perspective.
Before you reach those things.
And you move forward.
Then when you do accomplishsomething like that in your
life, you don't.
You actually have security, youwon't have any security.
(28:33):
If, if that's where it's derivedfrom.
Cause you always secretly fear.
That it could be taken away fromyou.
You're actually dependent onLike a child.
Exactly.
And so I feel like, when you'reallowed to grow into it, then
you realize that it can all betaken away.
And that doesn't diminish me asa person.
(28:54):
Because I had this before I hadthe favorable circumstances or
the.
Goal achievement or theaccomplishments or the money in
the bank or whatever, whateverit is, fill in the And.
And also like when you getthere, you won't be devastated
by the fact that, getting alongwith family is still hard and
getting along with coworkers,even though those coworkers are
(29:14):
helping you make really coolmovies is still sometimes
challenging.
And like sometimes the samethings
Anna (29:19):
It's still challenging.
And sometimes the challenge isjust change.
Yeah.
And it's like maybe beingconfident in yourself as a
filmmaker.
Isn't a challenge anymore, butsomething else is.
And so there's just always goingto be that next level challenge
for you and having a lot ofmoney or a lot of like a big
budget on a film is also verychallenging.
Kent (29:38):
It's high pressure and like Jason at Blumhouse talks
about.
Keeping his movies,$5 millionand under.
Gives them total autonomy andfreedom.
He's like we can afford to besuper creative and take big
risks and we can give.
Our artists final cut.
Which like is very rare inHollywood that anyone ever gets
final cut, unless they're hugehitters.
(29:59):
But he's like we have to givethem final cut.
He says, I don't think it'smoral not to give the director
final cut when they have skin inthe game and they're working for
scale.
And so I think that's reallyinteresting because, It's this
idea of, like he said, in, inHollywood, there's so much ego
where it's like, oh, the nextone has to be more money, more
money, more money.
And he said, no, we will stay inthis budget range.
(30:20):
We will not work with a listactress.
Like they were making thrillersfor 5 million and under with
studio backing.
It's a unique deal.
He's got that little corner ofthe market figured out, but the
point is, is that it'd be soeasy, so easy to say, well, what
about 15 million?
What about 30?
I mean, our last movie made 200million.
What if we made one for 50million, we're still way in the
(30:41):
black.
But he won't go there.
He doesn't want to go therebecause then the pressure's too
high.
There's no creativity.
And frankly, Your ROI is not.
200 X it's four X.
You know what I mean?
Like, and so he likes to be ableto play in this totally
different.
way.
And it's proven extremelyeffective for, for him.
(31:02):
A hundred movies later incounting.
That's a big, that's a crazycareer, but.
it's a principle.
Yeah.
I like the way that my, coachJody Moore talks about this, she
says when you're starting a newbusiness, it's like having a
brand new baby.
And.
You know, sometimes we expecttoo much.
(31:23):
Of our film, careers too early.
It's like expecting the baby tohelp with the dishes and to
help.
Anna (31:29):
Bring in some money to pay for the food and.
And it's still just a baby.
And so when your dream is young,And your career is young.
It requires a lot of investmentin nature.
It needs you to take care of ituntil it can grow to be able to
function on its own and eventake care of you.
And so trying to expect too muchof a baby career.
(31:52):
We'll crush it and it willdisappoint you.
But I think you're absolutelycapable of making a career and
it's not, when, when I getenough money, when I get enough
time, when I can quit my job.
It's now you can make a featurefilm right now.
And I think that once you canreally believe that.
And do it and feel it in yourbones.
(32:14):
I am a feature filmmaker.
That's what I do.
That's what I'm doing every Youwill not be able to become one
until you can get to that point.
And it's really starting in yourmind and starting in.
Just that it's possible.
I think that I probably wastedseven years of my life.
(32:35):
Waiting for something to fallinto place for it to be
possible, waiting for someone togive me an opportunity.
Wondering when I would be ableto save up enough money, be able
to have enough time.
To be able to make a movie.
Before I just realized that Icould, I could Right then with
the time that I have.
Though it was little, you know,though, I have little kids, even
(32:59):
I don't have extra money.
Not very much to put into this.
I can save what I have.
I can put it together and it, itadds up and.
Eventually.
You just keep moving forwardlittle step.
By little step until.
You look back and you're like,whoa.
I am a feature filmmaker I'vemade it's, you know, just, it
(33:20):
became inevitable.
If you keep moving towards it,it's just like, Like a map, you
know, if you know where you'regoing and you keep moving
towards it, you'll get there.
If you're trying to make somebig leap, you may not.
But.
But as long as you keep pivotingand focusing where you want to
go and taking small steps to getcloser and closer You'll
eventually get there.
Kent (33:39):
You know, and it's, it's relevant to this idea of how do
you support yourself during yourfirst feature film?
Because.
If you're expecting it to dothat.
you're obviously.
Potentially going to be reallylet down, but if you're not
expecting it to take care of youlike a baby, That would be an
unreasonable expectation.
then you say you support Andthen you recognize, okay, I
(34:01):
better go to work.
And provide for this child.
You know?
Yeah.
And it's the same with like thisfilm.
It's like, okay.
I have to have some way ofsupporting this and that might
be a day job.
It might be, leveraging otherskills.
in a freelance capacity.
So.
doesn't really matter how thepoint is that you recognize
mentally that it needs someother form of support.
and nurture.
(34:21):
You know?
Yeah.
It's almost the difference, likeas simple, a difference as.
If I'm trying to get toCalifornia from here in Georgia.
And I think I need to like, getit on one tank of gas and.
One drive without stopping.
That's impossible.
Right?
I mean, I can't have a belly.
(34:42):
I can't make it on one tank ofgas.
I can't make it.
Anna (34:46):
Without stopping at all to rest.
But I can make it.
I can make it there.
It's just that.
You need support as you go, youneed to be able to stop and fill
up and stop and sleep.
And sometimes you get held backby construction or traffic or
car problems or whatever, andthings slow you down, but you
just stop for as long as youneed to get things fixed up.
(35:08):
Keep moving forward and you willget there eventually.
And so I think.
We've probably drilled the pointpretty sufficiently, but.
I think that's the biggestobstacle for a lot of people is.
Is trying to make a jump that'stoo big, too soon.
When really you can get startedright now.
And keep your day job.
(35:29):
Keep your family.
Keep everything that you'redoing already.
That keeps you alive.
So thanks for joining us on thisepisode.
We hope that's been reallyhelpful and feel free to reach
out tous@filmsandinvisiblemansion.com.
If you have any questions and,or thoughts.
if you do want some helpapplying this here, unique
(35:52):
situation and circumstances.
I would encourage you to sign upfor our free Greenlight call,
where I can help you apply theprocess that we teach to your
circumstance, because there's notwo cases that look the same.
It's going to be different foreveryone.
But we have lots of techniquesand ideas, to help you figure
out what that looks like for youin your life talk to you soon.
(36:13):
Bye bye.
All right.
Welcome to the podcast.
This is take two of episode 89.
So we actually recorded thewhole podcast episode and we
always check our mic.
Before we record, we do like atesting 1, 2, 3, make sure it
sounds good.
And today we forgot to do that.
And of course, when we finishedthe whole recording.
(00:41):
Really good episode, by the way.
Hopefully we can match it.
We went to listen to the audioand my mic was slightly
unplugged and it just soundedterrible.
I don't even know.
What happened?
But it wasn't a good connection.
So this is take two and maybewe'll be even better and more
succinct this time.
(01:02):
But we want to talk about howyou support yourself financially
while making feature films.
And a few other things alongthose lines.
Especially getting your careeroff the ground for the first
time.
before Before you eventually aremaking money.
As a feature filmmakerexclusively.
And
Kent (01:21):
as an added benefit to you, it'll be about 10 to 20
minutes shorter than the lastepisode.
Because.
I don't have the patients torecord this again.
So Anna, I want to talk to you alittle bit about, Why is it?
Why aren't we talking aboutthis?
Why.
Is this a struggle?
To make the first feature filmfinancially, not just like
(01:41):
raising money, but especiallybecause.
The first features are oftenunder, if not completely
unfunded.
And yet they can be reallywonderful and they're super,
super productive.
In terms of, you know, Our film,critters and whatnot.
So because so few of us can get.
(02:04):
True.
Living wages are first features.
It's not like something weshould expect to get a lot of
money from at least on the frontend.
cause we can't command.
Day rates in what are some ofthe obstacles in your mind?
that you've heard from clientsand that we've experienced
ourselves to financiallysupporting yourself through your
first feature.
Anna (02:24):
Yeah.
So, first of all, before we evenget to that, I do want to
emphasize that 100%.
We believe that you can make acareer making feature films,
where that's all you do andthat's paying your bills.
And that is the whole point ofthe feature filmmaker academies
to get to, to that point.
It's just the bridging the gapin between that becomes kind of
(02:44):
difficult because you can't.
Usually make that big of a leap.
Right right away.
You have to start with smallersteps and honestly, That is
still the biggest obstacle.
I think that people face is justin your mind, this mentality of
trying to make too big of astep.
(03:04):
On your first film, trying tomake that leap.
Immediately into the end resultthat you want to And so you're
going to fall short.
You're going to stumble.
You're going to fall if you'retrying to jump too far, but if
you just take steps at a time,you can go far.
And you can do all of thosethings in the end.
It's just a matter of how do youget there?
(03:25):
How do you bridge that gap?
And so I think.
The biggest thing I see ispeople coming in and saying,
I've got this great idea.
I've done tons of work on it.
I've written a screenplay.
I've got a team I've got shotlists, whatever they've done.
Tons of preparation.
And all I need is$5 million.
And then we're ready to go.
I can totally do this.
(03:47):
And that's
Kent (03:48):
great.
I think that's rare by the waythat anyone's gone.
It's actually rare that anyonetakes the project to that far.
Usually they're waiting for the$5 million way before they need
it.
But for the sake of discussion,let's assume that they've got
everything done short of raise$5million.
Sure.
Anna (04:01):
And most people have varying degrees of progress that
they've made, whatever thatlooks like.
So they bring what they've doneso far and they feel confident
up until that point of, ofgetting the funding.
And so.
Yeah, they teach us a way to getmoney in film school that does
work once you're an establishedfilmmaker.
So yeah.
Get a name, actor attached andthen a studio can.
(04:24):
They come with a minimumguarantee and you can take that
to the bank and there's there'smethods that you can use that
will work, but they don't.
Typically work.
If you're a first time filmmakername actors don't want to work
with first time directors.
Almost ever.
Now it doesn't mean you can'treach out and try, you can.
But first get some funding, andbe prepared to make the movie
(04:48):
for a smaller budget.
And then if, if a name actorcomes on and you can raise more
funds.
Great.
You just can't plan on that.
And so I think mentally first weneed to take that first film and
just like, I don't want to be adream crusher here.
You absolutely can make a firstfilm.
It's just.
(05:08):
People are trying to get to thispoint so fast.
and so.
Expensively.
That they actually don't getthere at all.
Yeah, they
Kent (05:17):
want to get to this point.
What you're saying is like tothe point where they're making
money.
Off of feature filmmaking in away that they can pay off their
mortgage kind of thing.
But, but.
Even 5 million is kind ofconsidered a lower budget when
you're working like with unionsand stuff, you know?
And so the, The first featurefilm is totally make-able, but
(05:39):
you know, something that we'veseen a lot is that because the
first feature film has to have Xdollars behind its budget.
it's not dream crushing.
It's not.
Like we're telling you to slowdown.
You're actually slowing yourselfdown.
'cause a lot of people will siton a movie for five years and
(05:59):
say, all I need is the money.
As soon, any day now.
You know, and they'll sit thereand work it and work it and work
the phones and email and networkand put stuff out and make
shorts all day.
And shorts are great.
I think I recommend making shortcontent.
But.
until you've made a featurepeople aren't going to give you
(06:20):
that kind of money.
95% of the time.
And there's no way to know ifyou're an exception.
There's no secret formula.
unless you've built up a hugeaudience, another way, which you
can do, that'll also take fiveyears, you
Anna (06:34):
And even, yeah, even if have this belief that if I just
meet the right person withenough money, who believes in me
enough.
Even though I've never madeanother film to show for myself.
Then I could make this as thisamazing debut film.
Let's say that you do that forfive years and it works.
And you eventually find someonewith that much money who's
willing to invest in you.
(06:56):
You'll still be a betterfilmmaker.
Five years later, if you'dactually been practicing, making
feature films that whole time,and the way you met
Kent (07:03):
that person was making two small indie feature films, as
opposed to.
Networking and emailing, like toyour point and
Anna (07:09):
your chances of meeting someone who will invest in you
go way up as soon as you've madesomething.
And often they don't even seewhat you make.
It's just the fact that you'reable to make a feature film from
start to end.
And that you're competent enoughto handle that.
And honestly, It's I think that,that mental gap that we're
(07:30):
trying to, to bridge.
Is where most people get stuck.
And so if you can lean heavieron the side of like, I could
make a feature film tomorrow.
Literally you could, you couldgo today and roll.
Your phone camera.
For an hour and a half.
And make a 90 minute movie.
You don't even have to edit it.
(07:51):
If you don't To be short.
Yeah.
That's easy.
Yeah.
And there you go.
You're a feature filmmaker.
That alone.
It's something that most peoplecan't say, and then you could
Kent (08:01):
sell your iPhone and you would actually have made a
profit already.
You'd be a profitableprofessional feature
Anna (08:08):
filmmaker.
And then tomorrow we can scalefrom there.
Right?
I bet you could
Kent (08:12):
even convince people.
To buy that
Anna (08:16):
I'm sure you could get a few people to
Kent (08:18):
watch If you actually just vlogged it the whole time, like
a 90 minute vlog and walkedaround your house, recording Or
you didn't like necessarily vlogit.
Like you just, you got like oneof those Insta 360 cameras or
something, they kind of autopaints out the pole or
something.
And you just walked around intothat for 90 minutes and Rummage
around your house.
Oh man.
It'd be like a, it'd be like a,you could sell that to a museum.
(08:39):
It's like an art installation.
You could make thousands, youknow what we're going to do it.
That's a good idea.
Anyway.
Anna (08:50):
The point is that there is.
There are movies you can makeright now.
And that you have the resourcesright now to make something and
to practice, and that you'regoing to grow more as a
filmmaker by doing that.
Sorry.
Why are you
Kent (09:03):
asking me ideas about this?
90 minute movie that you make inone take.
What if it's a hike?
Just a 90 minute hike.
People do that all Fascinating.
There's all sorts of characterNo, don't steal my idea.
Listeners
Anna (09:20):
You can do it.
It's fine.
But here's the thing.
Most of us want to makesomething that's a little more
thoughtful than that.
And that's okay.
But I'm just saying lean alittle more towards this side of
what can I make right now withthe resources that I have.
And scale from there.
I want to be a featurefilmmaker.
I'm going to become one bypracticing making feature films.
(09:42):
That's what feature filmmakersdo.
So, if you want to be a featurefilmmaker, you make feature
films.
That's how you become one.
And no, that sounds Maybe kindof obvious.
And yet most of us aren't doingit.
We're trying to become one bytrying to get money.
That's not how you become afeature filmmaker.
And so.
scale back, I mean, or just keepyour idea as big as it is and
(10:06):
just wait and say, I'm going tomake a few other things.
First.
I'm going to make a proof ofconcept.
I'm going to make something thatshows what I can do right now.
And then I grow from there andthat's kind of the process that
we teach.
So.
That was a bit of a tangent,honestly.
But I think it's important toknow that first of all, it's
possible.
(10:27):
It's possible for you right now,where you are.
There are people who don't haveas much access to resources as
you are not as smart as you whomaybe don't have.
As many ideas as you who've madefeature films.
So, or they made them 10
Kent (10:42):
or 20 or 30 years ago when they had way less technological
democratization and resourcesavailable Once again, way more
limitations.
In maternity alone, we have.
We can shoot 4k pro Rez imageryout of our new iPhone.
And you can get those on paymentplans from T-Mobile or whatever.
(11:03):
With your phone bill, you know,it's like so democratized and
you can actually get decentimagery.
Out of the camera that fits inyour pocket.
Anna (11:14):
I mean, yeah.
I mean, that's how they shotTangerine, which is what it's
known for is, the same directorwho did the Florida project and
other bigger films later.
Kent (11:22):
So I haven't actually seen that movie.
but I've seen the trailer.
It was shot on a cell phone.
Honestly to me, it doesn't lookgreat.
Maybe it is.
I haven't.
Given it a try, but the point ismost feature filmmakers.
First films don't look thatgreat.
And most people don't see themor even know that they exist.
(11:44):
Do you mean visually or justlike overall?
Both.
Some look nice.
But like visually.
But yeah, most.
Most have.
Core struggles.
In some department, whethertechnical or usually narrative.
or performative or something,there's something that's.
(12:06):
But ultimately they all do theirown.
They do their job.
They don't have to be perfect.
And I think that that'ssomething we've talked about a
lot, is this idea of like, Notneeding.
To make Amazingly good.
Because we have to be bad atthings before we're good at
things, but the first featurealways puts us in the next.
It always uplevels our careersand puts us closer to.
(12:30):
making a career out of it wherewe're actually paying our bills
and supporting ourselvesfinancially.
But until then, the firstfeature itself.
What are some ways that you feellike.
Some things that make itfiscally feasible.
to actually complete it whenwe're not getting.
(12:50):
A ton of money or usually anymoney to, to make the thing in
the first place.
Yeah.
I mean, we can teach you toraise some financing, but it's
not going to be enough to liveoff of.
You're going to need.
All of it to make the best filmthat you can, which I assume
you'll want to do.
so we always recommend that youkeep.
Anna (13:10):
your day job, you know, keep something, that's a support
system, how you're supportingyourself.
Now you can continue to supportyourself that way.
And make a feature film.
On the side.
And there's this idea of like,what does it mean to go all I
think that some people mean thatthink that going all in means
that you let go of everythingelse.
(13:30):
And so you stopped doing yourday job.
You.
Give up on every other area ofyour life.
And sacrifice it all for makingthis one project.
But actually I think that thatputs you in a bad spot where
you're not able to take risksfinancially.
Or otherwise take creative risksbecause.
(13:51):
The stakes are so high.
So.
At the example that comes tomind for me as someone on a
tight rope, you know, if you'reon a tight rope and there's a
safety net or a trampoline orsomething below you to catch
you, if you fall.
Then you're going to be a lotmore free to try something
expressive, to do a trick, todo.
Something scary because if youfall.
(14:14):
You'll be okay.
And you don't want to fall, but.
But if you do.
You're still going to be okay.
So you're not.
Selling your house and beinghomeless, you know, to make this
happen or, taking risks whereyou can't afford.
To, you know, getting tons ofcredit card debt.
I don't recommend methods likethat can be.
(14:35):
Pretty dangerous.
But if you keep a day job, ifyou keep your life, then that's
going to inspire more creativityand take the pressure off so
that you're able to take thosecreative risks and actually make
something better.
And usually what happens is.
Sometimes people who dosacrifice everything on the
altar of the first film and ofthe film gods in general.
Kent (14:57):
usually their first and second films are really
successful.
but then they've nothing else tomake movies about because
they've, they've severed offtheir lives and their
livelihoods, not just theirlivelihoods, but their.
Their lives The relationshipsthere.
They're higher values.
And then all of a sudden.
They start to burn And there'sreally nothing to make films
about, or they just have tons ofmoney and they hire scripts from
(15:19):
screenwriters who do have.
Which sometimes that works outjust fine.
So maybe you can try that routeif you'd like, but, But I feel
like.
You know, This is aboutfinancially supporting yourself
emotionally and almostspiritually supporting yourself
throughout.
the first film sets a patternfor, and sort of an emo for
(15:41):
subsequent films in that youwill be able to continue to make
films that are actuallythoughtful and really
meaningful.
like you, said.
It's not.
about going all in it's aboutputting it all in, like you put
what you're learning throughlife and what it's like working,
you know, I don't know.
Maybe you're freelancing as afilmmaker, or maybe you're
(16:01):
working a day job.
Maybe you don't have anyfilmmaking experience.
Maybe you're going throughdifficult breakup.
Maybe you have.
A spouse and tons of littlekids, whatever that is.
It's like, you can put all thatperspective into really unique
storytelling and whatevercombination of.
Circumstances and experiencesthat you have.
That's going to feel greatcreativity, and it's going to be
(16:24):
really meaningful to people.
And that, that can also manifestitself in John or films.
I'm not saying that all of thathas to be domestic drama.
It can be, Whatever you find tobe energizing and creative.
But the point is, is that youcan do that over and over and
over again.
If you keep things together.
as opposed to throwing it allout, eh, Like you said, Maybe
(16:45):
you have a day job, but youmight have other means of
supporting yourself like we'refreelancers, where we have a
production company.
And, that has its advantages anddisadvantages, right?
Cause like when we're notworking, we're forgotten
earning.
We don't get quote-unquote paidtime off.
Right.
so there's pros and cons, butregardless.
Feature filmmaking as possiblewith any of those circumstances.
Anna (17:07):
Yeah.
What do you think, what wouldyou say to people who are trying
to get there through kind of aroundabout way?
Like, oh, I'll just make reallybig commercials and then become
a feature film director or I'llmake.
I'll make it as a weddingvideographer and then I'll move
into feature films.
Do you think that's productive?
Yes and no.
I think that all of those routescan work.
Kent (17:30):
I have two thoughts, the word then I think you could
replace with Andy.
Like, oh, I'll do this.
And then, I mean, that couldwork.
And honestly, there's peoplelike mark toy, for example, who,
who made it really big and incommercials.
And then he made his own filmand funded it for like a million
bucks.
so is he an exception kind Imean.
(17:52):
But at the same time, Not reallybecause he took decades building
that So once again, it's like,or you could do it at the same
time.
Just don't make a roboticexplosive.
Action film.
For a million dollars withinlike a semi name actor in it.
Just make.
(18:13):
Something.
Simpler.
But better even, you know, liketry and make a great story.
I'm not saying his movies.
A great story.
I have not even seen monsters ofman.
You can check it out and tellme, But.
you can.
You know, strong concepts don'thave to be expensive.
Great screenplays.
Don't have to be expensive toproduce.
(18:34):
And I guess the second thought Ihave on that is no matter what
point in your career, you decideto start making films.
You're either going to have todo it concurrently with what
you're doing right now, oryou're going to have to make a
hard right.
And pivot.
And what pivoting does is itcuts off all the money you're
making.
And so if you're like, I'm goingto make.
Commercials or I'm going to OrI'm going to work this day job.
(18:57):
That's really great.
I'm going to do this otherthing.
And then at some point I'm goingto stop.
And start making features.
You're going to watch yourincome plummet.
Now you can build that back upas you build your feature film
career.
But feature films.
Take a very long time to finish,especially if you don't have a
lot of money.
and even if you have a lot ofmoney, sometimes it still takes
(19:17):
a decent amount of And so.
you can do it.
Then.
You know, do something else,then make feature films or you
can do something else and makefeature films.
And I.
I feel like it's a smarter thingto make the film you're not
getting paid for while you'regetting paid to do something
else.
And it takes a long time, butwhen you're done.
(19:37):
You're in a much better positionto pivot.
Because now you have someportfolio.
And I know that sounds sillybecause portfolio is kind of
overrated sometimes, but there'salso, you have a ton of
education.
You know, you have a ton ofknowledge, you have
qualification and you have a tonof mistakes under your belt that
you know, okay.
On the next film, I know exactlyhow to get funded.
(19:57):
I'll get it funded twice asfast.
I know how to write a betterscript.
I know how to shoot better.
Edit better.
I mean, if you're doing thosejobs or if you're not, you know
how to get the better peoplebecause you know what you're
looking for now, you're, you'vemade all these mistakes and
you'll be able to combine theminto this huge core, some
feature filmmaking you're goingto bring with you in your mind.
On your, on your next project.
And then if you pivot.
(20:18):
You might be able to raise moremoney.
You might be able to raiseenough money to pay yourself.
You might be able to sell themovie in a way or distributed
herself distributed or findbuyers or have contacts with
sales agents or festivalcurators because you, you worked
and fought and failed on thisfirst one, but you built up your
network and your experience inyour education.
Now if you pivoted, you couldactually potentially survive
financially.
(20:39):
that's rarely the case on thefirst feature.
Yeah.
So it really doesn't matter whatwork you're doing to support
yourself while you make yourfilm.
In some ways, like you said, itmay be beneficial.
If you have a job that'ssomewhat related to film.
So you get to practice.
Anna (20:55):
But regardless, you can be practicing in your spare time
and you can be making a featurefilm with that spare time and
with the resources you have, andyou could be doing a day job,
that's completely different.
That's fine too.
Sometimes that's really nicebecause it makes it very easy to
separate work and passion.
and to kind of direct all yourcreative energy into the passion
(21:18):
projects and not be exhausted bythe end of the day of, of doing
film or doing creative stuff.
So.
There's affordances andlimitations to both.
But yeah, I would just say keepit all and keep moving forward.
And.
A little bit a day.
Adds up really fast, faster thanAnd As soon as you can start
(21:43):
making a feature film, it isdifferent than making shorts.
Shorts are good practice.
They are good to do.
But a feature film is if that'swhat you want to do.
And you practice that is goingto give you the best film
education you could ever get.
Now we're all for film andeducation.
Sorry at film school andeducation and learning as much
(22:04):
as you can, but learning allthat stuff in your head and
never applying it is not goingto be useful to And so go out
there and, and apply it.
And a lot of the case studieswe've studied of big directors
and how they get their start.
Is exactly this.
They are working day jobs.
They're doing this on weekends.
(22:25):
They're doing it in their sparetime with their friends.
With whatever they have accessto.
As far as equipment, as far as,people to help out in hands and.
Locations, things like that.
And you can make something goodwithin those creative
restraints.
And that can actually be part ofwhat makes your work so
interesting.
and part of the freedom of it.
(22:46):
Something, we, we also thought alot about is.
how creativity best functions.
I think that a certain amount ofconstraint is healthy for
creativity.
There's nothing.
To be creative about if youdon't have any problems to
solve, if you have endless moneyand endless resources.
It's actually very hard to becreative.
(23:08):
At the same time.
If you are expecting too much.
Out of the creativity and you'reputting tons of constraints and
tons of pressure on yourself,which by having, trying to take
too big of a step at first, youare doing that.
You're giving yourself moreconstraints.
The first time around.
(23:29):
You could actually crushcreativity that way too.
By saying, this has to supportme.
This has to make millions ofdollars.
This has to be a perfectproduction.
My debut film has to be amazing.
I think that's reallyinteresting to you to call those
constraints.
But they are.
It's like, I won't make ituntil.
Kent (23:47):
The circumstances exist.
But you're right.
Like that is.
Sabotaging your currentunnecessary constraints.
Putting on yourself.
That's like, that's like someonegoing into the corporate world
and saying, I will not have toaccept a job for under$200,000 a
year.
And it's like, or you could workjobs and work your way up to
that.
But on what planet do you expectto get paid out on your first
(24:09):
job?
You know, So, yeah, it's, it's,We do this for some reason as
filmmakers.
We're like, I have very littleexperience in this, but I want a
million dollar budget That'sjust what this requires and I
dream big enough.
I can make it happen.
Sometimes dreaming big enough isworking hard enough and working
hard enough is make it featuretoo.
Before that one.
(24:30):
You know, so yeah, I, It's.
That is dreaming.
You know, that is.
Sort of the undauntedperspective, not just sitting
there and demanding it of theworld.
Yeah, the universe, Well, andit's, Aye.
Helped out at a church girlscamp this last summer.
(24:51):
And we were talking about in thescriptures when it says With
faith, you can move a mountain.
And.
Kind of like what you wouldimagine moving a mountain to
look like.
And I think that for me, whatcomes to mind is like,
Anna (25:06):
They you say.
Lift up in the mountain, liftsand moves all on its own.
When actually it may be, get ashovel.
And start moving that mountainone scoop at a time and in the
same way with a film career, ifyou're trying to do something
grandiose and huge.
It may actually be impossible.
But if you're trying to do it astep at a time, And move closer
(25:28):
to it every day.
It is possible, and it might bebigger than you realize.
And at the end of it, you mightgo, whoa.
We made this thing for not verymuch money and it's pretty good.
It might be significantlyimpressive.
And that's, what's going to leadto numbers two and three and
four.
Kent (25:43):
Et cetera.
In terms of feature films and itdoesn't matter where you start,
even if it doesn't turn outgood, you.
You know, and it turns out to begarbage and, and maybe only a
few people like it, and it onlymakes a little bit of money.
If, if any.
But you scale each time it'sgoing to get better each time.
Cause you learned and you canapply what you learned the next
time
Anna (26:02):
Something interesting to talk about too, is.
Is something.
It's the idea that if you're ina hurry to get there, It's
probably because you think yourlife will be better.
Once you have that result, thiscan apply to feature films.
It can apply to when you havemoney, any goal, any goal that
you have.
We have a tendency to assume.
(26:23):
That once I reach a certaingoal, once I have a certain
result.
I'll be happier.
I'll be more confident and Ilike my life And in some ways,
It may be true that you'll growas a person and you may learn to
be more confident, for example.
But.
For most people.
that I see who do I reach thesegoals, and now I'm starting to
(26:46):
have been on this earth longenough to see people become
millionaires, to see people,reach their dreams and have
everything that they.
Thought that they ever wanted.
And they still aren't happy allthe time.
Really still there.
Life is 50, 50, 50% challenging,50% good.
And those challenges change.
(27:08):
But they're always there.
And so.
I think that sometimes that ideais sort of discouraging if you
think, well, why even bother ifmy life's not going to be any
better when I make a featurefilm and I'm really not going to
be happier because I've become afeature filmmaker.
Then why even do And I would saythat like the main reason why is
(27:29):
because you're going to grow somuch as a person.
And I think that's a huge partof why we're here is to to see
what we're capable of and toface new challenges and to
become more capable because welearn And we need to learn, you
know, it makes me also thinklike, you know, some people, for
example, if you could be handedthose circumstances, for
(27:49):
example,
Kent (27:50):
it could all just be given to you.
Lots of money to make yourfeatures with enough money to
provide for yourself.
And your debts are gone andyou're making movies for a
living.
And maybe even like, they'regetting good reviews and people
love you.
But.
That could all be gone.
And if that's where yourconfidence and security and joy
is built on.
(28:11):
Then it's all going to be gone.
And to your point, if you canlearn confidence and joy, And
perspective.
Before you reach those things.
And you move forward.
Then when you do accomplishsomething like that in your
life, you don't.
You actually have security, youwon't have any security.
(28:33):
If, if that's where it's derivedfrom.
Cause you always secretly fear.
That it could be taken away fromyou.
You're actually dependent onLike a child.
Exactly.
And so I feel like, when you'reallowed to grow into it, then
you realize that it can all betaken away.
And that doesn't diminish me asa person.
(28:54):
Because I had this before I hadthe favorable circumstances or
the.
Goal achievement or theaccomplishments or the money in
the bank or whatever, whateverit is, fill in the And.
And also like when you getthere, you won't be devastated
by the fact that, getting alongwith family is still hard and
getting along with coworkers,even though those coworkers are
(29:14):
helping you make really coolmovies is still sometimes
challenging.
And like sometimes the samethings
Anna (29:19):
It's still challenging.
And sometimes the challenge isjust change.
Yeah.
And it's like maybe beingconfident in yourself as a
filmmaker.
Isn't a challenge anymore, butsomething else is.
And so there's just always goingto be that next level challenge
for you and having a lot ofmoney or a lot of like a big
budget on a film is also verychallenging.
Kent (29:38):
It's high pressure and like Jason at Blumhouse talks
about.
Keeping his movies,$5 millionand under.
Gives them total autonomy andfreedom.
He's like we can afford to besuper creative and take big
risks and we can give.
Our artists final cut.
Which like is very rare inHollywood that anyone ever gets
final cut, unless they're hugehitters.
(29:59):
But he's like we have to givethem final cut.
He says, I don't think it'smoral not to give the director
final cut when they have skin inthe game and they're working for
scale.
And so I think that's reallyinteresting because, It's this
idea of, like he said, in, inHollywood, there's so much ego
where it's like, oh, the nextone has to be more money, more
money, more money.
And he said, no, we will stay inthis budget range.
(30:20):
We will not work with a listactress.
Like they were making thrillersfor 5 million and under with
studio backing.
It's a unique deal.
He's got that little corner ofthe market figured out, but the
point is, is that it'd be soeasy, so easy to say, well, what
about 15 million?
What about 30?
I mean, our last movie made 200million.
What if we made one for 50million, we're still way in the
(30:41):
black.
But he won't go there.
He doesn't want to go therebecause then the pressure's too
high.
There's no creativity.
And frankly, Your ROI is not.
200 X it's four X.
You know what I mean?
Like, and so he likes to be ableto play in this totally
different.
way.
And it's proven extremelyeffective for, for him.
(31:02):
A hundred movies later incounting.
That's a big, that's a crazycareer, but.
it's a principle.
Yeah.
I like the way that my, coachJody Moore talks about this, she
says when you're starting a newbusiness, it's like having a
brand new baby.
And.
You know, sometimes we expecttoo much.
(31:23):
Of our film, careers too early.
It's like expecting the baby tohelp with the dishes and to
help.
Anna (31:29):
Bring in some money to pay for the food and.
And it's still just a baby.
And so when your dream is young,And your career is young.
It requires a lot of investmentin nature.
It needs you to take care of ituntil it can grow to be able to
function on its own and eventake care of you.
And so trying to expect too muchof a baby career.
(31:52):
We'll crush it and it willdisappoint you.
But I think you're absolutelycapable of making a career and
it's not, when, when I getenough money, when I get enough
time, when I can quit my job.
It's now you can make a featurefilm right now.
And I think that once you canreally believe that.
And do it and feel it in yourbones.
(32:14):
I am a feature filmmaker.
That's what I do.
That's what I'm doing every Youwill not be able to become one
until you can get to that point.
And it's really starting in yourmind and starting in.
Just that it's possible.
I think that I probably wastedseven years of my life.
(32:35):
Waiting for something to fallinto place for it to be
possible, waiting for someone togive me an opportunity.
Wondering when I would be ableto save up enough money, be able
to have enough time.
To be able to make a movie.
Before I just realized that Icould, I could Right then with
the time that I have.
Though it was little, you know,though, I have little kids, even
(32:59):
I don't have extra money.
Not very much to put into this.
I can save what I have.
I can put it together and it, itadds up and.
Eventually.
You just keep moving forwardlittle step.
By little step until.
You look back and you're like,whoa.
I am a feature filmmaker I'vemade it's, you know, just, it
(33:20):
became inevitable.
If you keep moving towards it,it's just like, Like a map, you
know, if you know where you'regoing and you keep moving
towards it, you'll get there.
If you're trying to make somebig leap, you may not.
But.
But as long as you keep pivotingand focusing where you want to
go and taking small steps to getcloser and closer You'll
eventually get there.
Kent (33:39):
You know, and it's, it's relevant to this idea of how do
you support yourself during yourfirst feature film?
Because.
If you're expecting it to dothat.
you're obviously.
Potentially going to be reallylet down, but if you're not
expecting it to take care of youlike a baby, That would be an
unreasonable expectation.
then you say you support Andthen you recognize, okay, I
(34:01):
better go to work.
And provide for this child.
You know?
Yeah.
And it's the same with like thisfilm.
It's like, okay.
I have to have some way ofsupporting this and that might
be a day job.
It might be, leveraging otherskills.
in a freelance capacity.
So.
doesn't really matter how thepoint is that you recognize
mentally that it needs someother form of support.
and nurture.
(34:21):
You know?
Yeah.
It's almost the difference, likeas simple, a difference as.
If I'm trying to get toCalifornia from here in Georgia.
And I think I need to like, getit on one tank of gas and.
One drive without stopping.
That's impossible.
Right?
I mean, I can't have a belly.
(34:42):
I can't make it on one tank ofgas.
I can't make it.
Anna (34:46):
Without stopping at all to rest.
But I can make it.
I can make it there.
It's just that.
You need support as you go, youneed to be able to stop and fill
up and stop and sleep.
And sometimes you get held backby construction or traffic or
car problems or whatever, andthings slow you down, but you
just stop for as long as youneed to get things fixed up.
(35:08):
Keep moving forward and you willget there eventually.
And so I think.
We've probably drilled the pointpretty sufficiently, but.
I think that's the biggestobstacle for a lot of people is.
Is trying to make a jump that'stoo big, too soon.
When really you can get startedright now.
And keep your day job.
(35:29):
Keep your family.
Keep everything that you'redoing already.
That keeps you alive.
So thanks for joining us on thisepisode.
We hope that's been reallyhelpful and feel free to reach
out tous@filmsandinvisiblemansion.com.
If you have any questions and,or thoughts.
if you do want some helpapplying this here, unique
(35:52):
situation and circumstances.
I would encourage you to sign upfor our free Greenlight call,
where I can help you apply theprocess that we teach to your
circumstance, because there's notwo cases that look the same.
It's going to be different foreveryone.
But we have lots of techniquesand ideas, to help you figure
out what that looks like for youin your life talk to you soon.
(36:13):
Bye bye.
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