April 17, 2024 • 28 mins
Where do I distribute the funds that I have procured for my film?
How much will each facet of making a movie cost me so that I know how to lay out the budget?
Once you have finished your film, you can receive laurels from festivals; even the small film festivals. These laurels help promote trailers and posters that are used to market your film to the masses.
Join us today as we dive into the subject of four walling and what it takes to do it.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Kent (00:24):
Hi, everyone.
Welcome this week to the podcasttoday, we're going to do an
episode a little bit, to teachbriefly about the concept of
four walling, which is like onesmall facet of
self-distribution.
It's an optional facet, butlet's get into what that means.
And why it's so valuable tounderstand.
some of these principles ofself-distribution.
(00:44):
so.
I think.
Before I get into that, I wantto talk about some perspectives
that, I've started to learn andthat I've been reading.
We're going to go back.
We're going to touch back on alot of the education right now
that we're getting through thepodcast and, and literature
that, is authored by AlexFerrari at the indie film hustle
podcast and his book.
Rise to the film preneur.
(01:04):
So once again, I'd recommend allof that learning, but you can
use this podcast episode is atouching.
kind of, springboard into thatmaterial.
And.
There's one key concept that ifyou get nothing else out of, I
think it's, it's reallyvaluable.
It's something I wish I'd knownfor making my first feature And
(01:26):
it's like, it's the most basicconcept.
It sounds super dumb when yousay it.
But I don't think 98% offilmmakers are doing it.
When they set out, set out tomake a project.
And.
It's this one.
Key fact, and.
It sounds ridiculous, but Ireally think that.
(01:47):
A large chunk of money forwhatever amount of money you're
raising, whether it's your ownmoney or somebody else's.
For your first feature or anyfeature film?
Should be set aside formarketing.
And that's going to deal withfour walling a little bit, but
this principle sounds so basicand obvious, and yet almost
(02:08):
nobody in the indie film worldis doing it.
No The typical story is that ifwe're lucky, we've set money
aside for post-production right?
Like we actually had enoughmoney to finish the edit and
color and sound and score.
maybe via effects if there areany, which.
Hopefully there aren't much, ifany.
It's like the,
Anna (02:28):
because it's the end of the line.
If you're going to run out ofmoney, it's by the end of the
line, you've done it.
And so I think that even if youhave set aside in your budget,
Some money for that purpose.
Yeah, something else comes upand it seems more important or
urgent or necessary.
And.
And so it's frequently the casethat you'll end up out of money
(02:50):
at this point.
I also think that.
Potentially people don't knowhow to spend that money.
Like what does it mean tomarket?
How much does it cost?
How do I budget for it?
Because I don't even know whatthat is.
I'm putting it in festivals.
Is that like, You know, I think,well, yeah.
We don't know what that is.
It's unlikely that we'll knowhow to set aside money for it,
(03:11):
but do
Kent (03:12):
And it's like all of the above, right?
I mean, what, what is marketingit?
Festivals check.
Social media ads check, youknow, creating a, a website,
creating posters.
if you need to set money asidefor trailers, if you're not
doing all that yourself.
you know, yeah.
That's marketing money, takingtime or putting money behind
traditional marketingbillboards, going to
(03:34):
conventions.
There's a ton of ideas and hegoes over this a lot in Phil
intrepreneur.
rise to the film entrepreneur.
but, but you know, it's nodifferent than any other
business, right?
There's a million different waysto market and there's a million
different places to try and putyour movie.
So that people get eyes on itand become aware of it.
Specifically, the people thatyou think are the best fit.
(03:55):
As an audience.
for your But I want to touch onwhat you just said.
And I like it's the end of theline.
Typically we're running themoney I mean, that goes back to
another thing that most of usdon't do, which is actually
budget contingency.
We shouldn't be eating ourpost-production budget during
production.
If we have a productioncontingency budget.
And if we also have contingencyfor post-production, we
shouldn't be eating into thateither.
(04:16):
Now some of us, you know, youmight be hearing this and
thinking, oh, well, that'd benice, but you know, I'm just
barely scraping enough moneyjust to, you know, like I don't
have any money for contingency.
Well, contingency is 10% ofwhatever it is you do have.
It's all proportional.
So if you only have 700 bucks,For production on your movie.
(04:37):
$70 is contingency, right?
So you're really only going tomake it for$630 now.
You might think that sounds likean absurdly cheap amount But I
mean, The Polish brothers made amovie black and white shot on a
DSLR in France.
With two actors one and both ofthem were basically volunteers.
One of them was mark Polish.
(04:59):
And.
And they made the movie for no.
They had a scriptment theydidn't have a script.
And they had no overhead costsat all.
There was no costuming.
There was no anything.
They literally just made it.
Now, I'm not saying that that'swhat you have to make movies.
I'm just saying if all you haveis I'm a hundred dollars.
You can make it.
(05:19):
If you have 7,000, if you have70,000, if you have 700,000, if
you have 7 million, right.
We can just keep adding zeros.
For some, at some point, you'regoing to say this isn't They
only made.
A quiet place, which was a smallfilm for 10 million.
That's seven millions of notenough.
And it's, you know, it's enough,you know, you have enough,
(05:40):
whatever it is.
Pull your resources together.
Whatever they're yours or youget some equity financing.
I'm a big believer in inequityfinancing.
I believe all of us havecontacts with enough work.
We can raise that money.
Set money aside, make surethere's contingency so you don't
run out.
And then.
Set aside as much for marketingas you can, minimum 20%.
(06:04):
I would recommend doing doubleyour budget.
So set, 50,000 aside, If you'reable to raise a hundred
thousand, 70,000 aside from thebeginning of half of half.
Half the budget.
For marketing and here's why.
It's obvious.
Well, because you'll have moneyto market your film, but it also
goes farther than that.
It goes into.
(06:25):
Most of our plan for how to makemoney on our feature films.
And it's not just making money.
It's how we all make thesemovies to be seen.
And we, and no one's gonna seeit.
If it gets done and it justdisappears, which is what
happens to a lot of our films.
They don't sell, they're notsuccessful.
They don't make profit at thebox even if you get lucky and
you do do sell it to adistributor, sometimes those
(06:46):
distributors do nothing just todistribute the movie itself.
And then not only do you notmake money, but, No one sees it
and that's, that's not why wewere making these things is so
that they can just.
Kind of be a drop in the bucketthat disappears into the
massive.
Indie films that are being madetoday.
Anna (07:04):
Yeah.
So I think that's the simpledefinition of marketing is
anything that helps people knowthat your movie exists.
Yeah.
That's what marketing is.
But what about organicmarketing?
You know, just.
Sharing the word invoice thatare free on Facebook groups, on,
you know, your networks, like,is that an option as
Kent (07:27):
Well, of course it is.
Yeah.
I mean, you don't have to havemoney to market.
but I would still set asidemoney to market and.
Supplement that with as muchpowerful, organic marketing as
you possibly can.
and.
Part of that I think is sharingthe process of making your film,
sharing details about Withoutspoiling it, as much as you
(07:50):
possibly can throughout theentire process.
And as you do that, you willslowly grow your audience.
and then even if you do havemoney for marketing, when your
movie's done.
You'll have slowly.
Already been marketingorganically the whole time.
And there's lots and lots ofways to organically market, but.
I still recommend having budgetfor it.
(08:11):
And the main reason is.
Is because.
Even if we can only raise, like,let's say you only raised 10
grand for marketing.
That sounds like a pretty measlyamount when you think of like,
oh, but if Sony were todistribute my movie, how much
would they put behind marketing?
The sad truth is, is that unlessyour movie has a huge name actor
(08:32):
They're probably only going toput a few thousand bucks behind
the marketing, right?
Like the.
They're going to see if itsticks or if there's any
momentum behind it.
And if it doesn't seem like it'staking off.
Often.
It kind of just fizzles out andthey don't, they won't fight for
your movie the same way youwill.
I'm not trying to be doom andgloom.
I really do think there arestill some good distributors and
(08:54):
good distribution deals that canhappen.
But.
Or going for a traditionaldistribution sale of the movie.
We just want to do a one anddone sell it and at Principal
American distribution.
That's a great plan.
Okay.
Let's hope we leverage that tothe best it can give But if we
(09:14):
have marketing set aside, Uh,budget for it.
Then you're in a position to.
Actually walk into the meeting.
Without feeling any needwhatsoever to make a sale.
Like you don't have to sell themovie.
Because.
You have a whole plan in place.
To market it.
Yourself all by yourself and,you're confident that the, you
(09:37):
know, who your audience is andyou can reach them.
And so that that's a big thing.
To be able to walk in and that,that will actually increase your
ability to do it.
Maybe the more traditional wayof selling it to.
Um, distributors.
and making a profit.
For your investors in a bigsale.
And if not, once again, You'reprepared.
(09:58):
You're completely prepared.
And so to me, it's just obvious,good business.
Like no one would go into likeproduct development, unless they
said, what, how are we going tobring this thing to market?
Like, do we have a plan?
You know, And can worst casescenario, you could raise some
marketing money on the backend.
like mark Twila did with me, hehad money set aside to, but he
didn't even use it.
He, he ran an Indiegogo campaignfor his movie monsters of man.
(10:22):
Or monsters and Anyway.
robot movie that he made and heraised a big.
Chunk of cash.
An Indiegogo.
Basically pre-selling.
Licenses to To rent it and.
He raised like 25 K I think iswhat he said.
And they use that for theirFacebook.
(10:44):
Ad spend so they could splittest the trailer and.
that goes a long way on arelease, on an indie film.
And, that movie went on to makemillions.
I'm sure he spent way more thanthat in the long run, but in
their initial release, they.
They used to$25,000 to get thetrailer in front of 50 million
You know, So, These are alljust.
(11:07):
Anecdotal things.
But to get into the idea of fourwalling, four Rawlings, when you
use that marketing money to.
Self fund at theatricaldistribution.
And that could One premierescreening at your local movie
theater.
Or it could mean severalshowings at your local movie
theater on multiple screens ormultiple nights on one screen or
(11:28):
or it could mean that you'reactually.
showing it on several screensusing, some sort of a on demand
screening method where you'rereaching out to people and.
Seeing if they can garner enoughinterest, if they break a
threshold, oh, you know,whatever, 120 people in Chicago
said that they would like to seethe movie will that broke the
(11:49):
threshold for booking ascreening.
And they've all purchasedtickets.
Therefore the screening is nowhappening and they all go and
watch it.
If it's too low, then it doesn'tjustify the cost of the screen.
Right.
So you don't do it because you'dbe upside down.
I think that.
I want to talk about fourwalling, just because.
(12:09):
It's an interesting approach tobeing able to.
Risk-free distribute your movie.
In a way that lets you haveaccess to, they buy a ticket,
they give you their emailaddress.
Now you have the email addressesof everyone who watches the
movie in a theatrical setting.
And then you can later market,Hey, here's the DVD or the
(12:30):
Blu-ray or the digital release,or here's some news about it.
And you can share this on socialand that's just like good access
to your audience and, A good wayto continue to market, and
you're actually making moneywith your In a theatrical
setting, which is kind of adream for most of us as
filmmakers, I think, to think,wow, we're actually going to put
the movie up on a big, giantscreen.
Anna (12:50):
Now, are you renting the theater and putting it up or is
this.
Actually working with theatertoo.
List it and have the showtimesand people can buy tickets
through the theaters.
Kent (13:02):
So I think what we're doing is you're basically
renting the theater.
One way you do it is youbasically rent the theater and.
You just drive traffic straightthere.
And the advantage of that isthat if you're driving traffic
through your own platform, they,you get their email addresses.
They're paying you.
They're not paying.
Technically the theater.
The theater at that point, theydon't care if you make your
money back or not.
You're paying the theater forthe seats.
(13:25):
They care that you fill up theseats as a bonus for them.
Right?
Because then people are walkingthrough the doors and buying
overpriced popcorn and candy.
Right.
but either way that.
They're covered for the costnow.
By doing it.
strategically you can say, if weare able to sell X number of
tickets, Well, then it makesmore than it costs to rent said
(13:50):
theater.
Therefore, we will proceed.
If it doesn't.
We won't proceed and Hey, noskin off anyone's back.
Right.
So you
Anna (13:58):
say a date and have people purchase their tickets in
advance before us.
And before you actually reservethe theater for that.
Kent (14:06):
Yeah, and you've got to have enough advance so that
like, if it goes through,there's still time to get to
book theater.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And, and if it doesn't go thetheater isn't.
you know, upset or whatever.
so there's a system for that.
And there are websites andservices, even that will help
you.
To do that, but, The point is,is that there are ways to do it.
(14:30):
And mitigate that risk.
And so.
I think.
Even if you break even.
Let's say it's a premiere,there's still advantages to
screening.
Even if it doesn't make a lot ofmoney, because let's say your,
your main strategy is todistribute.
Via.
transactional video on demand.
(14:51):
They're just going to pay for iton Amazon for five bucks to
watch your movie.
On the computer.
And.
And you're saying, okay, well,what we'll do is we'll fill up a
theater.
Maybe we break even.
All the people in the theater,we encourage them to.
Share it on social media, weshoot a bunch of.
You know, footage of everyonepacking the theater and getting
(15:11):
all excited and show reactionsand do little interviews outside
of the door and ask people fortheir impressions.
And then you've got a ton ofsocial media content for that
traditional indie onlinedistribution model, which you're
doing as like a transactionalvideo on demand.
Approach.
So either way, the screen isactually still really beneficial
(15:32):
for your marketing strategy,even if it only breaks even.
So for me, it's just somethingI've been pondering is something
that's really valuable.
It's valuable, it builds hype.
It could actually make you a lotof money and it, and in some
cases, You might even be able toshow the movie in several cities
across America, if you'restrategic about the movie and
(15:54):
how you're reaching youraudience online and how well
you're able to target them andeither grassroots or paid
marketing, Phillip theaterseats.
Anna (16:02):
It's possible.
If you're marketing on Facebook,you could actually market to
that particular city.
And limit the ads to people whoare nearby.
who'd be local to, and also topeople who you think are the
audience that would enjoy thefilm the most.
It's interesting.
Cause when you were saying that.
(16:22):
It made me think about thedifference between.
Applying like submitting to filmfestivals versus just holding a
screening yourself.
And how that's almost the sameas.
Auditioning for small roles infilms versus making something
yourself.
Kent (16:40):
Yeah, that's a good parallel.
Anna (16:42):
Whereas like you could audition and hundreds of people
audition for the same role.
And a lot of times.
The competition is high.
And you may or may not get arole and it may or may not be a
role that you really like thatmuch.
Even though you're getting paid.
If you get selected.
Most people.
Are.
Spending time and not gettingselected, right?
(17:05):
Yeah.
Of the hundred people whoapplied 99 of them do not get
selected.
And so.
In the same way with the filmfestival, you're paying money to
submit.
It's competitive.
Kent (17:17):
You might not get picked.
I might not get
Anna (17:18):
picked.
And then you don't make moneyoff of it, even though it is
still good marketing.
I don't make ticket sales.
The festival Yeah, it'sinteresting.
Kent (17:30):
And most films that are even decent can get into
festivals.
They won't necessarily get intothe best festivals.
But I still think And I say thatas a marketing thing, because
like you get laurels and youcan, it just helps for trailers
and posters and things, butyou're right.
that as a distribution planneris like a big, like, this is my
break.
You can audition all day andit's such a slow grind and you
(17:55):
can OD you can submit it.
A thousand festivals and getinto five, you I'm not.
Preaching doom and gloom.
You'll actually probably getinto a lot more than five
because most festivals.
They're all different tiers.
Tears and the, and the low tierones will take a lot you know,
some are high competition insome art Sundance that's way
high.
(18:15):
You know, statistically, you'renot probably going to get in.
But there are a lot offestivals.
You can get your movie no matterhow bad it is in the most
festivals.
And not getting into Sundance.
It doesn't mean you have a badmovie by the way.
They have their own brand, justlike anybody else, but, To quote
Sebastian from Lala land, right?
You should stop auditioning and.
You won't have to do all thispushy.
(18:37):
Whenever he says.
He says and make
Anna (18:39):
history.
She's.
Kent (18:41):
You should make Yeah, stop auditioning.
And you're a child prodigyplaywright.
It's basically make something.
I go back to this all the time,make stuff, share stuff.
That's just what all the greatsuccessful filmmakers in the
world have done.
They make stuff and they sharestuff.
And like you're saying youcould.
Submit to a place where youcould screen your film or you
could create an opportunity toscreen your film.
(19:03):
You can audition or you cancreate the role and write it for
yourself.
You can.
Lobby studios to make your movieand fund your movie and
distribute your movie, or youcan.
Right.
Your movie and create your movieand fund your movie.
And I mean, maybe not with yourown money, but you can go do it,
you know?
(19:23):
And distribute your movie.
You can do that If you don'tlike distribution, that's being
handed to you.
Then create the distribution youwish was handed to Look, I'd
love to put my movie on Wheatiesboxes and McDonald's toys and
get like a massive merchandisingdeal and put it out there for
millions of dollars.
But frankly, I don't really haveany movies that would justify
(19:44):
that.
I mainly want to reach peoplethat will value the film and the
story.
And I value the film.
You know, I'm, I'm spending allthis time.
I'm just talking about the movieI'm making right now.
I am spending all this timemaking it.
I don't want to just sell it tosomeone, even if they pay okay.
Money.
Who's just gonna like throw iton a shelf.
And watch it disappear.
I don't think that would even doas much good, even if it takes
(20:05):
more time and effort to get thesame financial ROI.
If I can reach more people andlearn more.
And that's been RMO hasn't.
I mean, we even paid a companyto help us make a pitch deck,
and then we made it ourselveswhen we really were paying them
to do it.
And this was a professionalcompany that did this for a lot
of big movies.
We did that because we wanted tobe able to make pitch decks.
(20:29):
Ourselves.
And we've been told over andover again that our decks are
some of the best anyone has everseen.
That knowledge was more valuableto us than them doing the job
for us.
and that's kind of been our emoand that's kind of what we
teach, why we created thefeature filmmaker academy.
Cause we're like, Trying toequip people with really high
class.
(20:50):
Knowledge.
super high value knowledge to beable to create.
The career and the filmmakingand the infrastructure that they
wish people were giving them.
And we all just keep walkingaround, just wishing people
would give us theseopportunities.
And it.
It's kind of a silly way to livelife.
It's kind of an exhausting,disappointing way to live life
(21:11):
and try and make a career infilmmaking.
So, That was a long way to getaround to four walling, but
that's some context and, andhopefully I've described the
term for walling is basically.
self distribution throughtheatrical means, Whether that's
one screen or a thousand.
It's really buying out That's afour walling is.
Anna (21:31):
It's definitely worth considering, especially because
you can do pre-sales and notlose any money.
You know, you can know if thetheater's sold out before you
pay them.
Yeah.
Kent (21:41):
So that's smart or you could go the Kickstarter method
and just say, all right,theater, here's the money.
And I got to fill up thoseseats.
I mean, that makes sense.
In our case, for example, it'slocal, let's say I did a local
theater and I said, all right,here's the day.
Here's the time.
And I just put posters and, and,you know, Facebook ads or
(22:02):
billboards or whatever I had todo to like fill up the seats and
kind of made it like a speciallocal screening.
But if I was going to try andreach across the United States,
I would definitely not do that.
I would just, I would just say.
Kind of a grassroots, Screeningson demand, sort of a thing where
it's like, if we break thethreshold, We'll hold the
(22:23):
screening.
And on
Anna (22:24):
big movies, we'll do that too.
LA LA land did that too.
They did limited release in afew cities and then it performed
well.
So they released in a few more.
And they just grew as itperformed.
Well, not
Kent (22:36):
quite the same grassroots But they had a testing phase,
like you said, like a lot ofmovies will do that.
Yeah.
That's very common.
Yeah, this is more like we'llonly hold the screening.
If the tickets are already sold.
But, I mean, like, even to yourpoint star wars, you know,
they'll, pre-sale.
So many tickets and that mightaffect the number of screens
(22:56):
that it plays on.
Yeah.
I mean, to be honest, it's everyvariable screen United States,
usually with movies that big,but like
Anna (23:03):
top gun is still playing in some places.
Oh, yeah.
And
Kent (23:07):
so it's and you know, that's another thing I'm glad
you mentioned, because top gunis a good example.
I found a place.
I'm really interested in worldwar II history in aviation
history in Georgia.
And there are museums here inGeorgia that are still showing
top gun Maverick.
On private screens in themuseum.
And I think that's actuallyrelevant to this conversation
(23:29):
because there are so manybotique.
Venues that are not movietheaters, where you could show
your film.
Like, museums or educationalinstitutions or schools, or, you
know, places where that filmsspecific audience might gather.
(23:49):
To hold or enjoy a screening.
Our film.
Was involved to make the movie.
We had to have the involvementof so many local businesses
where we live in, in Georgia andPeachtree city, Georgia,
specifically.
So many different businesseswere involved.
And we actually have such a goodrelationship with.
Even like the visitors bureauhere, because we've made video
(24:11):
for them.
That it would actually makereally a lot of sense for us to
have a.
Some sort of a private localscreening because.
The relationships surroundingthe production of the movie
span.
So many entities in our citythat it would actually be really
easy.
I think to grassroots market.
screening for our film once it'sdone.
(24:31):
Is that something to consider aslike, who are your people?
And would it play well at aschool or at a university or at
a museum or at a town hall or,you know, whatever, like, could
you hold a screening in agrassroots kind of way?
And if you haven't budgeted,let's say you're already into it
and you haven't budgetedmarketing money.
(24:52):
That might be a really good wayto budget some marketing money.
Is you just, I had a friend Ashort film.
He for Walder theater.
For a short film.
He premiered And I think he madetwo grand and that was all the
money he needed to put thatshort film through festivals.
Which was brilliant.
He did a great job on that andthat movie.
(25:12):
Ran a lot of festivals and, andthat was a short and if he could
do that for the short and I wasthere, I went to that screening
and I both went.
It was packed.
Which one.
bear Bergen's the next door.
Oh.
It was a pack It was a brand newtheater built out in the middle
of Oram and a field.
(25:33):
Or I'm Utah.
And so, he filled up a theater.
This is a kid who is in hisfirst year of film school.
We've interviewed him on thispodcast.
He actually finished his firstfeature and just got
distribution and sold it.
And he's selling it to multipleterritories through a sales
agent right now he's havinggreat success.
So.
If he can do that with a shortfilm.
(25:53):
Then you can do it with afeature.
People are actually wanting tosit down for a couple hours of
entertainment.
Or even 75 minutes ofentertainment, if that's how
long your feature is.
Anna (26:01):
So especially if they know you and know you've been working
on it for years and they want tosee what yeah.
Yeah, we've been up to this
Kent (26:08):
whole time or even, you know, three months, let's say
you made a real cheap, quick,fast, dirty feature.
They're
Anna (26:13):
involved in, in some way, like you
Kent (26:15):
said, So, yeah.
If, if, if we screen our filmhere, With just all the people
involved, we could almost fillup a theater.
So like, you know, just how manyfavors we call it and everyone's
curious about it.
So, hopefully this hasstimulated some ideas for you
and Whether you are stillwriting your movie or whether
you're about to distribute it.
Or sell it or I hope that thishas given you some realistic
(26:38):
expectations and hasn't beendiscouraging, but encouraging
for new ways to look at.
Getting your movie to people.
And the more people it gets to,the more people that can help,
right.
Because we make movies to shareperspectives.
And to help ourselves.
And the more successful ourcareers are, the more we can
help.
Our collaborators careers.
And so it's all good.
You know, we're trying to creategoodness in this industry.
(27:00):
And we hope that this podcastepisode is done that in the form
of dissemination of knowledge.
Right.
So yeah, just
Anna (27:08):
more ideas and possibilities to open up your
mind So those are some of
Kent (27:11):
the things joining us.
Yeah.
Some of the things on our minds.
So.
Thanks for joining us.
Anna (27:17):
All right, we'll see you next time.
Bye.
Bye.
Hi, everyone.
Welcome this week to the podcasttoday, we're going to do an
episode a little bit, to teachbriefly about the concept of
four walling, which is like onesmall facet of
self-distribution.
It's an optional facet, butlet's get into what that means.
And why it's so valuable tounderstand.
some of these principles ofself-distribution.
(00:44):
so.
I think.
Before I get into that, I wantto talk about some perspectives
that, I've started to learn andthat I've been reading.
We're going to go back.
We're going to touch back on alot of the education right now
that we're getting through thepodcast and, and literature
that, is authored by AlexFerrari at the indie film hustle
podcast and his book.
Rise to the film preneur.
(01:04):
So once again, I'd recommend allof that learning, but you can
use this podcast episode is atouching.
kind of, springboard into thatmaterial.
And.
There's one key concept that ifyou get nothing else out of, I
think it's, it's reallyvaluable.
It's something I wish I'd knownfor making my first feature And
(01:26):
it's like, it's the most basicconcept.
It sounds super dumb when yousay it.
But I don't think 98% offilmmakers are doing it.
When they set out, set out tomake a project.
And.
It's this one.
Key fact, and.
It sounds ridiculous, but Ireally think that.
(01:47):
A large chunk of money forwhatever amount of money you're
raising, whether it's your ownmoney or somebody else's.
For your first feature or anyfeature film?
Should be set aside formarketing.
And that's going to deal withfour walling a little bit, but
this principle sounds so basicand obvious, and yet almost
(02:08):
nobody in the indie film worldis doing it.
No The typical story is that ifwe're lucky, we've set money
aside for post-production right?
Like we actually had enoughmoney to finish the edit and
color and sound and score.
maybe via effects if there areany, which.
Hopefully there aren't much, ifany.
It's like the,
Anna (02:28):
because it's the end of the line.
If you're going to run out ofmoney, it's by the end of the
line, you've done it.
And so I think that even if youhave set aside in your budget,
Some money for that purpose.
Yeah, something else comes upand it seems more important or
urgent or necessary.
And.
And so it's frequently the casethat you'll end up out of money
(02:50):
at this point.
I also think that.
Potentially people don't knowhow to spend that money.
Like what does it mean tomarket?
How much does it cost?
How do I budget for it?
Because I don't even know whatthat is.
I'm putting it in festivals.
Is that like, You know, I think,well, yeah.
We don't know what that is.
It's unlikely that we'll knowhow to set aside money for it,
(03:11):
but do
Kent (03:12):
And it's like all of the above, right?
I mean, what, what is marketingit?
Festivals check.
Social media ads check, youknow, creating a, a website,
creating posters.
if you need to set money asidefor trailers, if you're not
doing all that yourself.
you know, yeah.
That's marketing money, takingtime or putting money behind
traditional marketingbillboards, going to
(03:34):
conventions.
There's a ton of ideas and hegoes over this a lot in Phil
intrepreneur.
rise to the film entrepreneur.
but, but you know, it's nodifferent than any other
business, right?
There's a million different waysto market and there's a million
different places to try and putyour movie.
So that people get eyes on itand become aware of it.
Specifically, the people thatyou think are the best fit.
(03:55):
As an audience.
for your But I want to touch onwhat you just said.
And I like it's the end of theline.
Typically we're running themoney I mean, that goes back to
another thing that most of usdon't do, which is actually
budget contingency.
We shouldn't be eating ourpost-production budget during
production.
If we have a productioncontingency budget.
And if we also have contingencyfor post-production, we
shouldn't be eating into thateither.
(04:16):
Now some of us, you know, youmight be hearing this and
thinking, oh, well, that'd benice, but you know, I'm just
barely scraping enough moneyjust to, you know, like I don't
have any money for contingency.
Well, contingency is 10% ofwhatever it is you do have.
It's all proportional.
So if you only have 700 bucks,For production on your movie.
(04:37):
$70 is contingency, right?
So you're really only going tomake it for$630 now.
You might think that sounds likean absurdly cheap amount But I
mean, The Polish brothers made amovie black and white shot on a
DSLR in France.
With two actors one and both ofthem were basically volunteers.
One of them was mark Polish.
(04:59):
And.
And they made the movie for no.
They had a scriptment theydidn't have a script.
And they had no overhead costsat all.
There was no costuming.
There was no anything.
They literally just made it.
Now, I'm not saying that that'swhat you have to make movies.
I'm just saying if all you haveis I'm a hundred dollars.
You can make it.
(05:19):
If you have 7,000, if you have70,000, if you have 700,000, if
you have 7 million, right.
We can just keep adding zeros.
For some, at some point, you'regoing to say this isn't They
only made.
A quiet place, which was a smallfilm for 10 million.
That's seven millions of notenough.
And it's, you know, it's enough,you know, you have enough,
(05:40):
whatever it is.
Pull your resources together.
Whatever they're yours or youget some equity financing.
I'm a big believer in inequityfinancing.
I believe all of us havecontacts with enough work.
We can raise that money.
Set money aside, make surethere's contingency so you don't
run out.
And then.
Set aside as much for marketingas you can, minimum 20%.
(06:04):
I would recommend doing doubleyour budget.
So set, 50,000 aside, If you'reable to raise a hundred
thousand, 70,000 aside from thebeginning of half of half.
Half the budget.
For marketing and here's why.
It's obvious.
Well, because you'll have moneyto market your film, but it also
goes farther than that.
It goes into.
(06:25):
Most of our plan for how to makemoney on our feature films.
And it's not just making money.
It's how we all make thesemovies to be seen.
And we, and no one's gonna seeit.
If it gets done and it justdisappears, which is what
happens to a lot of our films.
They don't sell, they're notsuccessful.
They don't make profit at thebox even if you get lucky and
you do do sell it to adistributor, sometimes those
(06:46):
distributors do nothing just todistribute the movie itself.
And then not only do you notmake money, but, No one sees it
and that's, that's not why wewere making these things is so
that they can just.
Kind of be a drop in the bucketthat disappears into the
massive.
Indie films that are being madetoday.
Anna (07:04):
Yeah.
So I think that's the simpledefinition of marketing is
anything that helps people knowthat your movie exists.
Yeah.
That's what marketing is.
But what about organicmarketing?
You know, just.
Sharing the word invoice thatare free on Facebook groups, on,
you know, your networks, like,is that an option as
Kent (07:27):
Well, of course it is.
Yeah.
I mean, you don't have to havemoney to market.
but I would still set asidemoney to market and.
Supplement that with as muchpowerful, organic marketing as
you possibly can.
and.
Part of that I think is sharingthe process of making your film,
sharing details about Withoutspoiling it, as much as you
(07:50):
possibly can throughout theentire process.
And as you do that, you willslowly grow your audience.
and then even if you do havemoney for marketing, when your
movie's done.
You'll have slowly.
Already been marketingorganically the whole time.
And there's lots and lots ofways to organically market, but.
I still recommend having budgetfor it.
(08:11):
And the main reason is.
Is because.
Even if we can only raise, like,let's say you only raised 10
grand for marketing.
That sounds like a pretty measlyamount when you think of like,
oh, but if Sony were todistribute my movie, how much
would they put behind marketing?
The sad truth is, is that unlessyour movie has a huge name actor
(08:32):
They're probably only going toput a few thousand bucks behind
the marketing, right?
Like the.
They're going to see if itsticks or if there's any
momentum behind it.
And if it doesn't seem like it'staking off.
Often.
It kind of just fizzles out andthey don't, they won't fight for
your movie the same way youwill.
I'm not trying to be doom andgloom.
I really do think there arestill some good distributors and
(08:54):
good distribution deals that canhappen.
But.
Or going for a traditionaldistribution sale of the movie.
We just want to do a one anddone sell it and at Principal
American distribution.
That's a great plan.
Okay.
Let's hope we leverage that tothe best it can give But if we
(09:14):
have marketing set aside, Uh,budget for it.
Then you're in a position to.
Actually walk into the meeting.
Without feeling any needwhatsoever to make a sale.
Like you don't have to sell themovie.
Because.
You have a whole plan in place.
To market it.
Yourself all by yourself and,you're confident that the, you
(09:37):
know, who your audience is andyou can reach them.
And so that that's a big thing.
To be able to walk in and that,that will actually increase your
ability to do it.
Maybe the more traditional wayof selling it to.
Um, distributors.
and making a profit.
For your investors in a bigsale.
And if not, once again, You'reprepared.
(09:58):
You're completely prepared.
And so to me, it's just obvious,good business.
Like no one would go into likeproduct development, unless they
said, what, how are we going tobring this thing to market?
Like, do we have a plan?
You know, And can worst casescenario, you could raise some
marketing money on the backend.
like mark Twila did with me, hehad money set aside to, but he
didn't even use it.
He, he ran an Indiegogo campaignfor his movie monsters of man.
(10:22):
Or monsters and Anyway.
robot movie that he made and heraised a big.
Chunk of cash.
An Indiegogo.
Basically pre-selling.
Licenses to To rent it and.
He raised like 25 K I think iswhat he said.
And they use that for theirFacebook.
(10:44):
Ad spend so they could splittest the trailer and.
that goes a long way on arelease, on an indie film.
And, that movie went on to makemillions.
I'm sure he spent way more thanthat in the long run, but in
their initial release, they.
They used to$25,000 to get thetrailer in front of 50 million
You know, So, These are alljust.
(11:07):
Anecdotal things.
But to get into the idea of fourwalling, four Rawlings, when you
use that marketing money to.
Self fund at theatricaldistribution.
And that could One premierescreening at your local movie
theater.
Or it could mean severalshowings at your local movie
theater on multiple screens ormultiple nights on one screen or
(11:28):
or it could mean that you'reactually.
showing it on several screensusing, some sort of a on demand
screening method where you'rereaching out to people and.
Seeing if they can garner enoughinterest, if they break a
threshold, oh, you know,whatever, 120 people in Chicago
said that they would like to seethe movie will that broke the
(11:49):
threshold for booking ascreening.
And they've all purchasedtickets.
Therefore the screening is nowhappening and they all go and
watch it.
If it's too low, then it doesn'tjustify the cost of the screen.
Right.
So you don't do it because you'dbe upside down.
I think that.
I want to talk about fourwalling, just because.
(12:09):
It's an interesting approach tobeing able to.
Risk-free distribute your movie.
In a way that lets you haveaccess to, they buy a ticket,
they give you their emailaddress.
Now you have the email addressesof everyone who watches the
movie in a theatrical setting.
And then you can later market,Hey, here's the DVD or the
(12:30):
Blu-ray or the digital release,or here's some news about it.
And you can share this on socialand that's just like good access
to your audience and, A good wayto continue to market, and
you're actually making moneywith your In a theatrical
setting, which is kind of adream for most of us as
filmmakers, I think, to think,wow, we're actually going to put
the movie up on a big, giantscreen.
Anna (12:50):
Now, are you renting the theater and putting it up or is
this.
Actually working with theatertoo.
List it and have the showtimesand people can buy tickets
through the theaters.
Kent (13:02):
So I think what we're doing is you're basically
renting the theater.
One way you do it is youbasically rent the theater and.
You just drive traffic straightthere.
And the advantage of that isthat if you're driving traffic
through your own platform, they,you get their email addresses.
They're paying you.
They're not paying.
Technically the theater.
The theater at that point, theydon't care if you make your
money back or not.
You're paying the theater forthe seats.
(13:25):
They care that you fill up theseats as a bonus for them.
Right?
Because then people are walkingthrough the doors and buying
overpriced popcorn and candy.
Right.
but either way that.
They're covered for the costnow.
By doing it.
strategically you can say, if weare able to sell X number of
tickets, Well, then it makesmore than it costs to rent said
(13:50):
theater.
Therefore, we will proceed.
If it doesn't.
We won't proceed and Hey, noskin off anyone's back.
Right.
So you
Anna (13:58):
say a date and have people purchase their tickets in
advance before us.
And before you actually reservethe theater for that.
Kent (14:06):
Yeah, and you've got to have enough advance so that
like, if it goes through,there's still time to get to
book theater.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And, and if it doesn't go thetheater isn't.
you know, upset or whatever.
so there's a system for that.
And there are websites andservices, even that will help
you.
To do that, but, The point is,is that there are ways to do it.
(14:30):
And mitigate that risk.
And so.
I think.
Even if you break even.
Let's say it's a premiere,there's still advantages to
screening.
Even if it doesn't make a lot ofmoney, because let's say your,
your main strategy is todistribute.
Via.
transactional video on demand.
(14:51):
They're just going to pay for iton Amazon for five bucks to
watch your movie.
On the computer.
And.
And you're saying, okay, well,what we'll do is we'll fill up a
theater.
Maybe we break even.
All the people in the theater,we encourage them to.
Share it on social media, weshoot a bunch of.
You know, footage of everyonepacking the theater and getting
(15:11):
all excited and show reactionsand do little interviews outside
of the door and ask people fortheir impressions.
And then you've got a ton ofsocial media content for that
traditional indie onlinedistribution model, which you're
doing as like a transactionalvideo on demand.
Approach.
So either way, the screen isactually still really beneficial
(15:32):
for your marketing strategy,even if it only breaks even.
So for me, it's just somethingI've been pondering is something
that's really valuable.
It's valuable, it builds hype.
It could actually make you a lotof money and it, and in some
cases, You might even be able toshow the movie in several cities
across America, if you'restrategic about the movie and
(15:54):
how you're reaching youraudience online and how well
you're able to target them andeither grassroots or paid
marketing, Phillip theaterseats.
Anna (16:02):
It's possible.
If you're marketing on Facebook,you could actually market to
that particular city.
And limit the ads to people whoare nearby.
who'd be local to, and also topeople who you think are the
audience that would enjoy thefilm the most.
It's interesting.
Cause when you were saying that.
(16:22):
It made me think about thedifference between.
Applying like submitting to filmfestivals versus just holding a
screening yourself.
And how that's almost the sameas.
Auditioning for small roles infilms versus making something
yourself.
Kent (16:40):
Yeah, that's a good parallel.
Anna (16:42):
Whereas like you could audition and hundreds of people
audition for the same role.
And a lot of times.
The competition is high.
And you may or may not get arole and it may or may not be a
role that you really like thatmuch.
Even though you're getting paid.
If you get selected.
Most people.
Are.
Spending time and not gettingselected, right?
(17:05):
Yeah.
Of the hundred people whoapplied 99 of them do not get
selected.
And so.
In the same way with the filmfestival, you're paying money to
submit.
It's competitive.
Kent (17:17):
You might not get picked.
I might not get
Anna (17:18):
picked.
And then you don't make moneyoff of it, even though it is
still good marketing.
I don't make ticket sales.
The festival Yeah, it'sinteresting.
Kent (17:30):
And most films that are even decent can get into
festivals.
They won't necessarily get intothe best festivals.
But I still think And I say thatas a marketing thing, because
like you get laurels and youcan, it just helps for trailers
and posters and things, butyou're right.
that as a distribution planneris like a big, like, this is my
break.
You can audition all day andit's such a slow grind and you
(17:55):
can OD you can submit it.
A thousand festivals and getinto five, you I'm not.
Preaching doom and gloom.
You'll actually probably getinto a lot more than five
because most festivals.
They're all different tiers.
Tears and the, and the low tierones will take a lot you know,
some are high competition insome art Sundance that's way
high.
(18:15):
You know, statistically, you'renot probably going to get in.
But there are a lot offestivals.
You can get your movie no matterhow bad it is in the most
festivals.
And not getting into Sundance.
It doesn't mean you have a badmovie by the way.
They have their own brand, justlike anybody else, but, To quote
Sebastian from Lala land, right?
You should stop auditioning and.
You won't have to do all thispushy.
(18:37):
Whenever he says.
He says and make
Anna (18:39):
history.
She's.
Kent (18:41):
You should make Yeah, stop auditioning.
And you're a child prodigyplaywright.
It's basically make something.
I go back to this all the time,make stuff, share stuff.
That's just what all the greatsuccessful filmmakers in the
world have done.
They make stuff and they sharestuff.
And like you're saying youcould.
Submit to a place where youcould screen your film or you
could create an opportunity toscreen your film.
(19:03):
You can audition or you cancreate the role and write it for
yourself.
You can.
Lobby studios to make your movieand fund your movie and
distribute your movie, or youcan.
Right.
Your movie and create your movieand fund your movie.
And I mean, maybe not with yourown money, but you can go do it,
you know?
(19:23):
And distribute your movie.
You can do that If you don'tlike distribution, that's being
handed to you.
Then create the distribution youwish was handed to Look, I'd
love to put my movie on Wheatiesboxes and McDonald's toys and
get like a massive merchandisingdeal and put it out there for
millions of dollars.
But frankly, I don't really haveany movies that would justify
(19:44):
that.
I mainly want to reach peoplethat will value the film and the
story.
And I value the film.
You know, I'm, I'm spending allthis time.
I'm just talking about the movieI'm making right now.
I am spending all this timemaking it.
I don't want to just sell it tosomeone, even if they pay okay.
Money.
Who's just gonna like throw iton a shelf.
And watch it disappear.
I don't think that would even doas much good, even if it takes
(20:05):
more time and effort to get thesame financial ROI.
If I can reach more people andlearn more.
And that's been RMO hasn't.
I mean, we even paid a companyto help us make a pitch deck,
and then we made it ourselveswhen we really were paying them
to do it.
And this was a professionalcompany that did this for a lot
of big movies.
We did that because we wanted tobe able to make pitch decks.
(20:29):
Ourselves.
And we've been told over andover again that our decks are
some of the best anyone has everseen.
That knowledge was more valuableto us than them doing the job
for us.
and that's kind of been our emoand that's kind of what we
teach, why we created thefeature filmmaker academy.
Cause we're like, Trying toequip people with really high
class.
(20:50):
Knowledge.
super high value knowledge to beable to create.
The career and the filmmakingand the infrastructure that they
wish people were giving them.
And we all just keep walkingaround, just wishing people
would give us theseopportunities.
And it.
It's kind of a silly way to livelife.
It's kind of an exhausting,disappointing way to live life
(21:11):
and try and make a career infilmmaking.
So, That was a long way to getaround to four walling, but
that's some context and, andhopefully I've described the
term for walling is basically.
self distribution throughtheatrical means, Whether that's
one screen or a thousand.
It's really buying out That's afour walling is.
Anna (21:31):
It's definitely worth considering, especially because
you can do pre-sales and notlose any money.
You know, you can know if thetheater's sold out before you
pay them.
Yeah.
Kent (21:41):
So that's smart or you could go the Kickstarter method
and just say, all right,theater, here's the money.
And I got to fill up thoseseats.
I mean, that makes sense.
In our case, for example, it'slocal, let's say I did a local
theater and I said, all right,here's the day.
Here's the time.
And I just put posters and, and,you know, Facebook ads or
(22:02):
billboards or whatever I had todo to like fill up the seats and
kind of made it like a speciallocal screening.
But if I was going to try andreach across the United States,
I would definitely not do that.
I would just, I would just say.
Kind of a grassroots, Screeningson demand, sort of a thing where
it's like, if we break thethreshold, We'll hold the
(22:23):
screening.
And on
Anna (22:24):
big movies, we'll do that too.
LA LA land did that too.
They did limited release in afew cities and then it performed
well.
So they released in a few more.
And they just grew as itperformed.
Well, not
Kent (22:36):
quite the same grassroots But they had a testing phase,
like you said, like a lot ofmovies will do that.
Yeah.
That's very common.
Yeah, this is more like we'llonly hold the screening.
If the tickets are already sold.
But, I mean, like, even to yourpoint star wars, you know,
they'll, pre-sale.
So many tickets and that mightaffect the number of screens
(22:56):
that it plays on.
Yeah.
I mean, to be honest, it's everyvariable screen United States,
usually with movies that big,but like
Anna (23:03):
top gun is still playing in some places.
Oh, yeah.
And
Kent (23:07):
so it's and you know, that's another thing I'm glad
you mentioned, because top gunis a good example.
I found a place.
I'm really interested in worldwar II history in aviation
history in Georgia.
And there are museums here inGeorgia that are still showing
top gun Maverick.
On private screens in themuseum.
And I think that's actuallyrelevant to this conversation
(23:29):
because there are so manybotique.
Venues that are not movietheaters, where you could show
your film.
Like, museums or educationalinstitutions or schools, or, you
know, places where that filmsspecific audience might gather.
(23:49):
To hold or enjoy a screening.
Our film.
Was involved to make the movie.
We had to have the involvementof so many local businesses
where we live in, in Georgia andPeachtree city, Georgia,
specifically.
So many different businesseswere involved.
And we actually have such a goodrelationship with.
Even like the visitors bureauhere, because we've made video
(24:11):
for them.
That it would actually makereally a lot of sense for us to
have a.
Some sort of a private localscreening because.
The relationships surroundingthe production of the movie
span.
So many entities in our citythat it would actually be really
easy.
I think to grassroots market.
screening for our film once it'sdone.
(24:31):
Is that something to consider aslike, who are your people?
And would it play well at aschool or at a university or at
a museum or at a town hall or,you know, whatever, like, could
you hold a screening in agrassroots kind of way?
And if you haven't budgeted,let's say you're already into it
and you haven't budgetedmarketing money.
(24:52):
That might be a really good wayto budget some marketing money.
Is you just, I had a friend Ashort film.
He for Walder theater.
For a short film.
He premiered And I think he madetwo grand and that was all the
money he needed to put thatshort film through festivals.
Which was brilliant.
He did a great job on that andthat movie.
(25:12):
Ran a lot of festivals and, andthat was a short and if he could
do that for the short and I wasthere, I went to that screening
and I both went.
It was packed.
Which one.
bear Bergen's the next door.
Oh.
It was a pack It was a brand newtheater built out in the middle
of Oram and a field.
(25:33):
Or I'm Utah.
And so, he filled up a theater.
This is a kid who is in hisfirst year of film school.
We've interviewed him on thispodcast.
He actually finished his firstfeature and just got
distribution and sold it.
And he's selling it to multipleterritories through a sales
agent right now he's havinggreat success.
So.
If he can do that with a shortfilm.
(25:53):
Then you can do it with afeature.
People are actually wanting tosit down for a couple hours of
entertainment.
Or even 75 minutes ofentertainment, if that's how
long your feature is.
Anna (26:01):
So especially if they know you and know you've been working
on it for years and they want tosee what yeah.
Yeah, we've been up to this
Kent (26:08):
whole time or even, you know, three months, let's say
you made a real cheap, quick,fast, dirty feature.
They're
Anna (26:13):
involved in, in some way, like you
Kent (26:15):
said, So, yeah.
If, if, if we screen our filmhere, With just all the people
involved, we could almost fillup a theater.
So like, you know, just how manyfavors we call it and everyone's
curious about it.
So, hopefully this hasstimulated some ideas for you
and Whether you are stillwriting your movie or whether
you're about to distribute it.
Or sell it or I hope that thishas given you some realistic
(26:38):
expectations and hasn't beendiscouraging, but encouraging
for new ways to look at.
Getting your movie to people.
And the more people it gets to,the more people that can help,
right.
Because we make movies to shareperspectives.
And to help ourselves.
And the more successful ourcareers are, the more we can
help.
Our collaborators careers.
And so it's all good.
You know, we're trying to creategoodness in this industry.
(27:00):
And we hope that this podcastepisode is done that in the form
of dissemination of knowledge.
Right.
So yeah, just
Anna (27:08):
more ideas and possibilities to open up your
mind So those are some of
Kent (27:11):
the things joining us.
Yeah.
Some of the things on our minds.
So.
Thanks for joining us.
Anna (27:17):
All right, we'll see you next time.
Bye.
Bye.
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