May 30, 2024 • 28 mins
In this episode we explore why thinking like a hobbyist filmmaker may be the fastest way to eventually transition into a professional career. Learn how starting with passion projects and investing in your hobby can lead to professional growth and financial sustainability. We delve into the concept of building filmmaking assets, illustrating how every project, no matter its immediate success, contributes to a lucrative portfolio over time.
It's not just about the career milestones. We also explore the intrinsic joy of creative pursuits, drawing a parallel with our son's newfound passion for baseball. His love for the game, regardless of professional equipment or formal training, serves as a poignant reminder of why we started filmmaking in the first place. Drawing inspiration from industry legends, we invite you to embrace a fearless, joyful approach to filmmaking. Whether you consider yourself a seasoned filmmaker or a passionate hobbyist, we hope this episode offers valuable insights and inspiration to fuel your creative journey.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
Hi, welcome to the podcast Today.
We're going to keep it prettyshort, but we want to talk about
what the process looks like ofgoing from making films as a
hobby and why that mentality ofdoing it as a hobby is important
early on to, eventually, whereyou've built up assets that you
can live off of and have acareer, if that's what you want.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
Yeah, for me this was kind of a paradigm shift, even
just somewhat recently, wherewe've kind of grown from film
students and film lovers to filmwedding filmmakers and like
video makers and then commercialfilmmakers and music video make
.
You know it's like and thenyou're just doing whatever you
(00:47):
can to just get paid to do it,because you're kind of pursuing
it as a career.
But then eventually we startedto try and focus on passion
projects as a way out and thenrecently made the shift to
full-time feature narrativefilmmaking, feature length, and
so that's kind of quote-unquotethe dream.
(01:08):
But it's still like a littlescary, right, because we haven't
made like retirement levelmoney from a movie or anything
like that.
It's not like our deal-makingabilities as producers are
secure, that we have like afirst look deal with paramount.
So a lot of people are like whatdoes that look like?
What does it mean when you'vemade it?
What is that whatever?
And I think so.
I think the paradigm shifted alittle bit for me when I kind of
(01:31):
realized that no single moviehas to like explode your
financial fortunes in order foryou to become a full-time
feature filmmaker.
It also doesn't need to do thatto.
You don't need to have anymovies that are like massive
blockbusters or get paid like adirector's fee or a writer's fee
(01:53):
of like seven plus figures toto make that happen either.
Um, but rather this idea oflike building assets as a
paradigm in terms of likesomething you can focus on doing
habitually and over a long term, so that you don't get burnt
out and feel like you have togive up because you still
haven't made that movie that'sgrossed $100 million.
Speaker 1 (02:15):
Yeah, absolutely, and every movie that you make
contributes to your progress andcontinues to contribute to that
significantly over time as youbuild this collection of films.
Some of them will keep makingmoney, some of them won't make
any money, some of them willmaybe make a lot of money, who
knows.
And then eventually I mean wehaven't made any money yet off
(02:39):
of our film because it isn'tdistributed yet it's not
publicly released.
But we are getting paid to makethe next films that we're making
.
So we have that that we'reliving off of too.
So that's the assets.
Eventually we realize we'll bebringing in money that we can.
You know it, it adds up.
Even if it's just a fewthousand or ten thousand a year
(03:00):
if you get a few films doingthat, eventually that's like an
average salary for some peopleyeah, well, it depends on.
Speaker 2 (03:07):
Yeah, but like one of the things that kind of made me
think this way and it wasn'tsomething like I'd never heard
of this happening.
I mean, we know this happenswith all pretty much any movie
is that it's an asset that lastsway longer than its theatrical
box office run, if it has atheatrical run at all.
It generates a certain amountof money every year, and some
(03:28):
movies I really think that thedefinition of a hit shouldn't
really be did it multiply on itsbudget within the first few
weeks of being in theaters.
I really think that we need tostart thinking of a hit as
something that generates revenueyear after year after year and
from that that definition likeit doesn't have to be like a
(03:48):
massive classic.
Not that I'm saying weshouldn't aspire to make the
greatest movies we possibly canor the goodest movies you don't
need to confine that window ofsuccess to the first few weeks
of its release.
Yes, and so we were talking tosomeone who I won't mention the
names just for the sake ofanonymity, but he mentioned a
film that is called mom's nightout, which is a movie I was
(04:14):
somewhat familiar with, I thinkin terms of I'd seen a trailer.
I I was aware of the existenceof this film, but I've I've
never watched it.
I don't really want to watch it.
I probably will never watch it.
Um, that's just because I don't.
There's a bazillion movies outin the world and I'm not going
to watch them all.
That's just my preference.
But that movie apparently, isstill bringing in for the person
(04:35):
that I've spoken, with sixfigures every year, a six-figure
check every year, a six-figurecheck every year, and I'm really
surprised just to hear that.
But it wasn't mind-blowing.
But as I've thought about it inthe subsequent weeks, it kind
(04:57):
of helped me realize that if youmake a movie, and maybe it just
wasn't everything you dreamedit could be, that doesn't mean
that it wasn't worth making.
It's going to inform your nextfilms, it's going to help you
grow, like Anna said, but thenit also helps you build a
portfolio of assets, and I'm youknow this isn't just becoming
financially shrewd in the termsof like oh, just make movies,
(05:22):
and you'll make movies withoutworrying too much about the
money.
Because in my opinion, whenyou've got assets that are
bringing in that kind of revenue, then you just make the movie
the best you can.
You could make no budget filmsIf you don't want to raise money
.
You could make lower budgetfilms If you do want to raise
some money.
You could make higher budgetfilms If you want to take the
(05:43):
time to really work your wayinto Hollywood and get millions
of dollars to make a movie.
But it enables you to do thatbecause you're you're
financially growing.
But in the meantime, you know,and I have about one and a half
movies feature length done and athird one hot on its heels, and
(06:04):
none of these are like starringa-list actors or major major.
You know Hollywood studio dealsinvolved and yet I'm realizing
that we can sustain a lifecontinuing to make movies that
cost next to nothing or moderatebudgets compared to what their
(06:27):
expected returns are and whattheir relative value is compared
to that budget, and justcontinue to grow those assets
and learn, grow the scope ofwhat we're able to create, as
well as hone our skills asstorytellers and artists yeah
and I just just viewing it fromthat perspective of and that's
(06:49):
just kind of where we'restarting to get to, but
everyone's different.
You might still be in that phasewhere you're like I'm just
happy to be paying rent and makeanything at all.
Or I just barely bought myfirst camera, you know like, and
it's like this tiny littlehybrid mirrorless thing with
like I don't have all the gear Ineed or whatever, and it's like
, well, it doesn't really matter, like you just keep pushing
forward and scrounging yourresources and making long form
(07:12):
content or short form content.
If you're at that phase, youcan create sort of a habitual
approach to your filmmakingwhere it's like I just make
movies and as you keep doingthat, you'll survive because of
your creative output and yourfaith that that will turn into
financial input.
Speaker 1 (07:33):
Yeah, I think that the reason I think it's so nice
to start out as a hobbyist, evenif you know you want to be a
professional in this industry,is that the mindset's very
different and I think thatpeople who go in knowing that
they want to be professionalfilmmakers and make a living off
of their films might beexpecting too much at the
(07:55):
beginning to really makesomething good that's actually
going to move them forward.
For example, when you engage ina hobby, you know that you're
doing it because you love it,because it's fun.
You will pay money often toengage in your hobby, to get the
materials you need toparticipate in that hobby.
(08:16):
Like if your hobby is paintingyou believe there are other
people out there who also lovedoing it just for the love of it
or music whatever, yeah, someof these things cost money or no
money?
Speaker 2 (08:26):
yeah, running sports like you'll pay money for your
equipment, for your team, butit's not expensive, it's mostly
for fun and it's for your soul,your body, you know, your, your
relationships and there's notexpensive, it's mostly for fun
and it's for your soul, ifanything to my life.
Speaker 1 (08:43):
But I have a day job, I have a stable way of
providing for myself and I'm notgoing to quit everything and
(09:04):
just try to make money as aprofessional.
I don't know basketball playerwhen I'm brand new at basketball
, or maybe I have a little bitof experience at basketball.
Speaker 2 (09:14):
And you know, what's so funny is that, like so many
people play sports or basketballor go running, even because of
its intrinsic value, they justwant to be in the act of doing
that thing.
It has intrinsic reward.
And so few people think that'spossible with film, because
everyone says that film is anexpensive medium.
But really, in 2024, is filmthat expensive of a medium?
(09:37):
If a smartphone is tooexpensive for you, then maybe
you're right, but most of ushave smartphones and most of us
have brains and most of us havelike a word processor, right,
like we have Google docs or pensand paper, and so, if you have
those tools can shoot, you canedit and you can more more
(09:59):
important than any of that,right, and I think so many of us
like.
But I need huge crews, I needso many resources.
I want to make these bigfantasy films.
Um, you know, there are a lot ofpeople telling even high
concept fantasy stories forlittle to no money, because
they're either 2d animating orstop motion animating.
Um, and you might think I don'thave those skills.
(10:21):
Well, most stop motionanimators start as hobbyists,
because every little boy orlittle girl has a box of legos
or a pile of clay.
That's how I started.
I bought clay from hobbylobbyby as a preteen.
It was not financiallyrestrictive and so, like you can
tell these stories, but that'sonly if you have stories to tell
(10:44):
.
And I think that's the partthat we all forget is that we
want to be directing, we want tobe, we want to be shooting and
editing and working with actors.
It's so romantic, and yet doany of us want to come up with
great ideas anymore?
That costs nothing and that'sjoyful.
Writing to me is as soulfeeding as running or eating
good food or having deepconversations with people I love
(11:06):
.
Speaker 1 (11:06):
Well, and the people who become best at something are
doing it from that place oflove and they don't forget that.
I think that my son is ourson's a good example.
He's really into baseball rightnow.
He's never played on a team wehaven't.
I mean, we may get him that forhis birthday this fall, but he
just took an interest in it.
He's not like I want to be aprofessional baseball player
(11:28):
when I grow up, he just likesbaseball.
He plays with his friends atrecess.
He picked up a glove and abaseball at a yard sale and a
hat for some random team, Idon't even know what, and he
plays it with his sister out onour back deck and with his
friends when he can at recessand it's just like he is finding
(11:49):
what he's looking for becausehe just loves it.
So at the yard sale that'sgoing to stand out to him oh, a
baseball.
I don't have like a realbaseball.
He was using like a littleplastic, some other kind of ball
for a while and now he has areal baseball and you know and a
real glove, for that matter.
Yep and so, and he could holdhimself back and say, well, I
(12:09):
don't have like a professionaljersey, I can't play baseball
without the right clothes, or Idon't have like a team or the
right ball, or enough people, orwhatever.
Speaker 2 (12:21):
Or a sponsorship deal .
You know it's like.
You know you can just goendlessly, and yet he's like I
will find a sphere and hit itwith a stick and I will play by
myself if I have to.
He will throw the ball in theair and swing at it and miss all
day.
And yet he just romanticizesabout baseball and he doesn't
watch baseball on tv, he doesn'tromanticize on it, like like
(12:45):
stats or like baseball cards.
He has like one baseball card,I think, and so like.
Yeah, it just shows you thatlike baseball right now for him
and this might change as he getsolder has just completely
intrinsic value.
It has no extrinsic value.
This idea of like this willmake people like me or like it's
for him, it's I, like it, it'sfun yeah it's something I want
(13:09):
to keep doing, and then, as soonas that's gone, it does.
It just becomes a chore.
Or it becomes something youwish you weren't stuck in but
it's always going to be betterto or it becomes something you
wish you weren't stuck in.
Speaker 1 (13:18):
But it's always going to be better to pursue it from
that place of love and notbelieving that it has to be
professional, that it has to bea certain way, than for him to
just sit and dream about it andnot do anything with the
resources he has.
Like hitting a sphere with astick is always going to be
better than like sitting anddreaming about being a
professional baseball player.
the stick is always going to bebetter than like sitting and
dreaming about being aprofessional baseball player.
(13:38):
So, in the same way, if youwant to make movies for a career
or just because you love it,moving forward with what you
have to make, what you can rightnow, is always going to be
better than sitting and dreamingabout someday when I have tons
of money and someday when I haveall the resources and all the
skills and all the people.
Then I'm going to make thisexcellent film, and you never
actually do take action thatmoves you towards that future.
(14:02):
And so I think starting from aplace of hobby is really nice
because it's just like for fun.
When I have time I work on thisand I do it with what I have
because I love it, andeventually, if you keep doing a
thing that you love, eventuallyit starts, you start to get good
(14:24):
at it and that starts to becomevaluable and you share it with
people and they start to engageand eventually you'll make
something, or you'll be goodenough at making things that
people will pay you to makethings, and maybe it's just that
you make your first feature forreally cheap with money.
You can scrounge here and therewith your friends.
However you get it made.
You make it this is how all thebest do it and then you put it
(14:46):
out there and maybe you make ahuge profit.
Maybe you don't, but you'vemade a film.
And then you make another oneand eventually you make ones
that start to bring in money,and you can get to the point
where you are making enoughmoney off of this hobby that you
could quit your day job andjust do the hobby if you want to
.
Speaker 2 (15:07):
But it could also just be a hobby right, well, and
does it lose any of its valueif it is just a hobby?
And does it lose any of itsvalue if it is just a hobby?
It shouldn't right, because thevalue is intrinsic.
The value is sort ofexperiential or emotional or
spiritual.
It's not monetary necessarilywhen you're doing it for the
(15:35):
love of it, which is kind ofwhat you know.
I learned the definition of theword amateur, uh, from francis
or coppola, who talked about therainmaker being his last film
that he made for hollywood as ahighly paid hollywood director.
And he said as opposed to anamateur, which is someone who
does it for the love of it yeahspeaking of which he's releasing
a new movie that he spent 120million of his own dollars on,
which you know.
(15:55):
Why don't you just go spend$120 million on your own movie?
You know, I guess, um, not allof us are Francis Ford Coppola,
but and I hope it all works outfor the best and that his movie
is good the um, um.
But I mean, if you wantdesperately to quit, whatever
your current source of income is, um, this is still the best way
(16:19):
is to just keep finding asustainable, repetitive,
habitual way to make film, and Ithink we might be, maybe Ann
and I've been guilty of this inthe past.
But I think that I reallyappreciate a lot of Noam Kroll's
thoughts on this topic in thathe says, first of all, almost
(16:41):
nobody who graduates from filmschool actually makes a feature
film.
Almost nobody who makes afeature film, even less make a
second feature film.
And he's like but right now I'mreading a book called Atomic
Habits.
The more you do something, themore it informs a certain sense
of identity in you, and so whenyou make a film, you start to
(17:04):
say maybe I'm a filmmaker.
And then you make another filmand another, and then pretty
soon you're like this is justwho I am, this is what I do, and
because you believe that aboutyourself, you just keep making
movies.
So thus the hobby, thus, thusthe habit, thus this mentality
(17:27):
of creating an identity foryourself of making films.
Um, I think is really helpfulto just take out that
self-sabotage that's in yourbrain, that's keeping you from
making films because you don'thave enough experience, money,
equipment, whatever it's likejust or do, or to prevent doing
(17:49):
something impulsive or rash ordesperate, like people who
actually do need to make money,who quit their day jobs and say
I'm going to make feature films.
Speaker 1 (18:01):
And then you become kind of desperate, like, oh, I
need money because I have to eat, I have to make something good
because I have to eat, and thatpressure actually doesn't help
your work.
Instead of being motivated andfueled by love and passion,
you're fueled by fear andpressure, and that desperation
usually leads to bad decisionsand people lose their homes and
(18:21):
they lose their relationshipsand sometimes make really bad
choices from that place.
Speaker 2 (18:26):
Well, and everything you fear.
If you operate out of that fear, you almost always guarantee
that what you fear is going toeventually happen.
Like I'm so scared I'm going tomake a really bad movie and
that no one's going to like it,and then you're going to make a
movie out of that fear.
Speaker 1 (18:40):
Well, what you focus on is what you create.
Speaker 2 (18:42):
Yeah, exactly, and so it's.
It's so inevitable, and socreating a system in which you
can make movies fearlessly isgoing to be way better for you.
Now we are sort of financiallydependent on our working as
feature-length filmmakers, andyet I still don't have to
operate out of fear.
I can.
(19:03):
I still have the same job thatthat, you know, some of us who
are still not full-time at thishave, which is to make films out
of a place of creativity and aplace of love as opposed to a
place of fear, and so I justhave to have faith that I'm
(19:23):
going to make another one, andI'm going to make another one
after that, and if this onedoesn't quite turn out, the next
one might, and I'm just goingto keep making movies, and
that's fine.
You know, if you're on tour,not every single night is going
to be your best night, butyou're going to do your best.
Speaker 1 (19:47):
And it's super fun because, hey, hey, you're
playing music and you love musicbecause music is good for your
soul and you love connectingwith people.
It's the same with movies.
Well, and it was that way forus, even though it's hard to
differentiate because we werefreelancers.
Doing film work, commercialfilm and event film, videography
was not the dream, that was ourday job, and so we did passion
projects on the side, in our ownfree time.
After we put our kids to bed,we would meet with our friends,
we would write, we would planthese films and then eventually,
(20:11):
we were able to set aside acouple of weeks and make our
first feature.
That took years to edit becausewe were doing the edit in our
free time.
And now we're finally at a placewhere we can actually give it
all our time to work on thefeatures that we're doing, which
is kind of the dream and we'renot like big names or anything,
but this is a dream for us to beable to do it we've figured out
(20:35):
a system that creates enoughvalue to keep our bills paid you
know, know, yeah, it's justenough.
Just enough to take care of ourfamily and move forward.
Speaker 2 (20:45):
Without a lot of surety.
But the one piece of suretyI've learned is that it's not a
simple technique or a way toraise money or a certain network
connection that helps me have aguy in my back pocket who keeps
funding all my stuff.
None of those things are thekey.
The key is to stay creative andto make this a habit so that
I'm not scared.
(21:07):
You know, like, just if I keepcreating, the money will just
come, but if I keep thinking Idon't have enough, then I'm
actually going to spend moremoney.
Like I'm going to always thinkI need to spend more and buy
more to be able to make, whenreally I need to make more to be
(21:29):
able to spend.
Speaker 1 (21:33):
I feel like consistency is maybe the highest
indicator of success that I canthink of.
Even with practicing piano,practicing for a whole hour
before my lesson once a week isnot going to be nearly as
effective as practicing for twominutes every single day leading
up to that lesson.
Speaker 2 (21:51):
Two minutes might be an extremely short amount of
time, but even the same amountof time.
Speaker 1 (21:55):
Let's say I did an hour total, but it was spread
out across a week versus in onechunk, and doing it spread out
is more effective.
Speaker 2 (22:06):
And to your point.
Some people might say well, youcan't just make movies for an
hour or two a day.
And I will beg to differ,because we have made a feature
film, for the most part about anhour or two a day, like I mean,
some days it was a lot morehours than that, some weeks it
was zero hours, it wasn't hyperconsistent, but we never gave up
(22:27):
and we just kept shipping awayat it.
And that first feature I reallydo do.
I do think it helped crack thatsort of door of opportunity,
yeah, sort of door ofopportunity.
Yeah, sort of cracking that walldown, that barrier down, in
terms of just helping investorsfeel like they can buy shares in
(22:50):
the projects that we aredeveloping, and the selling of
those shares is what'ssupporting us financially.
And then you start to getscared and think what if I can't
make my investors money back?
The only answer to that is tonot feel fear and to keep
creating, and that's the bestchance you and your investors
have of survival.
(23:12):
Right, it's like just keepmaking the best thing you can
and make it from a place ofhonesty.
Like Craig Mazin and JohnAugust say on script notes notes
all the time.
The best script to write is theone you want to see get made.
do not try and write to what youthink other people want to make
you know like, don't try andmake movies what you think
(23:32):
people are going to like or wantto watch.
Just create and keep creatingand honing and learning and
refining and everything's goingto be fine if you are creative
and you are contributing.
Speaker 1 (23:45):
It affects the final product.
It definitely is If you'recoming from a place of love and
passion for what you do.
I feel like I tell this story alot, but when I was in high
school I remember watching atalent show and seeing side by
side one person get up and singwho was actually a really good
singer but super nervous, and Ijust felt like stress the whole
(24:09):
performance because I wasnervous for this person, because
they were nervous.
And then someone else gettingup who was not nearly as
talented at singing and justhave a grand old time performing
and singing this song andbecause he was having so much
fun, everyone loved it and hadso much fun watching it, and so
in the end the attitude matteredso much more than the talent,
(24:33):
even because your experience ofmaking what you make has an
effect on those who watch whatyou make.
And so if you're approaching itfrom a place of love and fun
and you can find that andsometimes I lose that and I have
to kind of go back to like, howdid I fall in love with films
in the first place, or watchthose movies that bring back
(24:54):
that love for me then that willtranslate into your work.
And also there's no guarantees.
You know, and if you're aspiritual person I am, we are
and maybe you aren't butdefinitely we have been
prayerful about our decisionwhen to switch over into doing
(25:15):
this as a full-time career, andthat also gives me a lot of sure
.
I guess like, yeah, confidencemoving forward, I feel like the
time is right and I trust in Godand he's always provided for us
and our family.
So I'd invite you to beprayerful about your decision,
but also to not be rushed aboutgetting to that point, because
(25:36):
if it is a hobby and it'ssomething you love, just love
doing it when you're able to doit.
But if it feels right, trustyourself you'll know yeah,
you'll know, when that timecomes that it's time that you
can.
You can take that leap, andit's always going to be a leap.
It's not usually like here yougo, you're all set for the next
few years.
Do it if you want to yeah, it'snever gonna.
Speaker 2 (25:58):
Yeah, exactly, it's never like.
Here's all the money that willwipe away all your fears.
Speaker 1 (26:03):
You're all set.
You made a million dollars onyour film.
Speaker 2 (26:05):
If someone paid you a million dollars and gave you a
hundred million dollar budget tomake a movie you'd still have
plenty to fear and be scared andstressed about, because you'd
be so scared that the project isgoing to fall apart and this is
going to be your last movie youever get to make because it's
so high budget.
There's tons to be scared of.
So just choose now not to bescared of your limited resources
and you'll have practiced notfeeling scared of unlimited
(26:29):
resources right?
So you know, fear just neverhelps and consistency, habit,
love, bell always helps.
So, anyway, hopefully that washelpful have a a good one.
Speaker 1 (26:45):
We'll see you next time bye.
Hi, welcome to the podcast Today.
We're going to keep it prettyshort, but we want to talk about
what the process looks like ofgoing from making films as a
hobby and why that mentality ofdoing it as a hobby is important
early on to, eventually, whereyou've built up assets that you
can live off of and have acareer, if that's what you want.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
Yeah, for me this was kind of a paradigm shift, even
just somewhat recently, wherewe've kind of grown from film
students and film lovers to filmwedding filmmakers and like
video makers and then commercialfilmmakers and music video make
.
You know it's like and thenyou're just doing whatever you
(00:47):
can to just get paid to do it,because you're kind of pursuing
it as a career.
But then eventually we startedto try and focus on passion
projects as a way out and thenrecently made the shift to
full-time feature narrativefilmmaking, feature length, and
so that's kind of quote-unquotethe dream.
(01:08):
But it's still like a littlescary, right, because we haven't
made like retirement levelmoney from a movie or anything
like that.
It's not like our deal-makingabilities as producers are
secure, that we have like afirst look deal with paramount.
So a lot of people are like whatdoes that look like?
What does it mean when you'vemade it?
What is that whatever?
And I think so.
I think the paradigm shifted alittle bit for me when I kind of
(01:31):
realized that no single moviehas to like explode your
financial fortunes in order foryou to become a full-time
feature filmmaker.
It also doesn't need to do thatto.
You don't need to have anymovies that are like massive
blockbusters or get paid like adirector's fee or a writer's fee
(01:53):
of like seven plus figures toto make that happen either.
Um, but rather this idea oflike building assets as a
paradigm in terms of likesomething you can focus on doing
habitually and over a long term, so that you don't get burnt
out and feel like you have togive up because you still
haven't made that movie that'sgrossed $100 million.
Speaker 1 (02:15):
Yeah, absolutely, and every movie that you make
contributes to your progress andcontinues to contribute to that
significantly over time as youbuild this collection of films.
Some of them will keep makingmoney, some of them won't make
any money, some of them willmaybe make a lot of money, who
knows.
And then eventually I mean wehaven't made any money yet off
(02:39):
of our film because it isn'tdistributed yet it's not
publicly released.
But we are getting paid to makethe next films that we're making
.
So we have that that we'reliving off of too.
So that's the assets.
Eventually we realize we'll bebringing in money that we can.
You know it, it adds up.
Even if it's just a fewthousand or ten thousand a year
(03:00):
if you get a few films doingthat, eventually that's like an
average salary for some peopleyeah, well, it depends on.
Speaker 2 (03:07):
Yeah, but like one of the things that kind of made me
think this way and it wasn'tsomething like I'd never heard
of this happening.
I mean, we know this happenswith all pretty much any movie
is that it's an asset that lastsway longer than its theatrical
box office run, if it has atheatrical run at all.
It generates a certain amountof money every year, and some
(03:28):
movies I really think that thedefinition of a hit shouldn't
really be did it multiply on itsbudget within the first few
weeks of being in theaters.
I really think that we need tostart thinking of a hit as
something that generates revenueyear after year after year and
from that that definition likeit doesn't have to be like a
(03:48):
massive classic.
Not that I'm saying weshouldn't aspire to make the
greatest movies we possibly canor the goodest movies you don't
need to confine that window ofsuccess to the first few weeks
of its release.
Yes, and so we were talking tosomeone who I won't mention the
names just for the sake ofanonymity, but he mentioned a
film that is called mom's nightout, which is a movie I was
(04:14):
somewhat familiar with, I thinkin terms of I'd seen a trailer.
I I was aware of the existenceof this film, but I've I've
never watched it.
I don't really want to watch it.
I probably will never watch it.
Um, that's just because I don't.
There's a bazillion movies outin the world and I'm not going
to watch them all.
That's just my preference.
But that movie apparently, isstill bringing in for the person
(04:35):
that I've spoken, with sixfigures every year, a six-figure
check every year, a six-figurecheck every year, and I'm really
surprised just to hear that.
But it wasn't mind-blowing.
But as I've thought about it inthe subsequent weeks, it kind
(04:57):
of helped me realize that if youmake a movie, and maybe it just
wasn't everything you dreamedit could be, that doesn't mean
that it wasn't worth making.
It's going to inform your nextfilms, it's going to help you
grow, like Anna said, but thenit also helps you build a
portfolio of assets, and I'm youknow this isn't just becoming
financially shrewd in the termsof like oh, just make movies,
(05:22):
and you'll make movies withoutworrying too much about the
money.
Because in my opinion, whenyou've got assets that are
bringing in that kind of revenue, then you just make the movie
the best you can.
You could make no budget filmsIf you don't want to raise money
.
You could make lower budgetfilms If you do want to raise
some money.
You could make higher budgetfilms If you want to take the
(05:43):
time to really work your wayinto Hollywood and get millions
of dollars to make a movie.
But it enables you to do thatbecause you're you're
financially growing.
But in the meantime, you know,and I have about one and a half
movies feature length done and athird one hot on its heels, and
(06:04):
none of these are like starringa-list actors or major major.
You know Hollywood studio dealsinvolved and yet I'm realizing
that we can sustain a lifecontinuing to make movies that
cost next to nothing or moderatebudgets compared to what their
(06:27):
expected returns are and whattheir relative value is compared
to that budget, and justcontinue to grow those assets
and learn, grow the scope ofwhat we're able to create, as
well as hone our skills asstorytellers and artists yeah
and I just just viewing it fromthat perspective of and that's
(06:49):
just kind of where we'restarting to get to, but
everyone's different.
You might still be in that phasewhere you're like I'm just
happy to be paying rent and makeanything at all.
Or I just barely bought myfirst camera, you know like, and
it's like this tiny littlehybrid mirrorless thing with
like I don't have all the gear Ineed or whatever, and it's like
, well, it doesn't really matter, like you just keep pushing
forward and scrounging yourresources and making long form
(07:12):
content or short form content.
If you're at that phase, youcan create sort of a habitual
approach to your filmmakingwhere it's like I just make
movies and as you keep doingthat, you'll survive because of
your creative output and yourfaith that that will turn into
financial input.
Speaker 1 (07:33):
Yeah, I think that the reason I think it's so nice
to start out as a hobbyist, evenif you know you want to be a
professional in this industry,is that the mindset's very
different and I think thatpeople who go in knowing that
they want to be professionalfilmmakers and make a living off
of their films might beexpecting too much at the
(07:55):
beginning to really makesomething good that's actually
going to move them forward.
For example, when you engage ina hobby, you know that you're
doing it because you love it,because it's fun.
You will pay money often toengage in your hobby, to get the
materials you need toparticipate in that hobby.
(08:16):
Like if your hobby is paintingyou believe there are other
people out there who also lovedoing it just for the love of it
or music whatever, yeah, someof these things cost money or no
money?
Speaker 2 (08:26):
yeah, running sports like you'll pay money for your
equipment, for your team, butit's not expensive, it's mostly
for fun and it's for your soul,your body, you know, your, your
relationships and there's notexpensive, it's mostly for fun
and it's for your soul, ifanything to my life.
Speaker 1 (08:43):
But I have a day job, I have a stable way of
providing for myself and I'm notgoing to quit everything and
(09:04):
just try to make money as aprofessional.
I don't know basketball playerwhen I'm brand new at basketball
, or maybe I have a little bitof experience at basketball.
Speaker 2 (09:14):
And you know, what's so funny is that, like so many
people play sports or basketballor go running, even because of
its intrinsic value, they justwant to be in the act of doing
that thing.
It has intrinsic reward.
And so few people think that'spossible with film, because
everyone says that film is anexpensive medium.
But really, in 2024, is filmthat expensive of a medium?
(09:37):
If a smartphone is tooexpensive for you, then maybe
you're right, but most of ushave smartphones and most of us
have brains and most of us havelike a word processor, right,
like we have Google docs or pensand paper, and so, if you have
those tools can shoot, you canedit and you can more more
(09:59):
important than any of that,right, and I think so many of us
like.
But I need huge crews, I needso many resources.
I want to make these bigfantasy films.
Um, you know, there are a lot ofpeople telling even high
concept fantasy stories forlittle to no money, because
they're either 2d animating orstop motion animating.
Um, and you might think I don'thave those skills.
(10:21):
Well, most stop motionanimators start as hobbyists,
because every little boy orlittle girl has a box of legos
or a pile of clay.
That's how I started.
I bought clay from hobbylobbyby as a preteen.
It was not financiallyrestrictive and so, like you can
tell these stories, but that'sonly if you have stories to tell
(10:44):
.
And I think that's the partthat we all forget is that we
want to be directing, we want tobe, we want to be shooting and
editing and working with actors.
It's so romantic, and yet doany of us want to come up with
great ideas anymore?
That costs nothing and that'sjoyful.
Writing to me is as soulfeeding as running or eating
good food or having deepconversations with people I love
(11:06):
.
Speaker 1 (11:06):
Well, and the people who become best at something are
doing it from that place oflove and they don't forget that.
I think that my son is ourson's a good example.
He's really into baseball rightnow.
He's never played on a team wehaven't.
I mean, we may get him that forhis birthday this fall, but he
just took an interest in it.
He's not like I want to be aprofessional baseball player
(11:28):
when I grow up, he just likesbaseball.
He plays with his friends atrecess.
He picked up a glove and abaseball at a yard sale and a
hat for some random team, Idon't even know what, and he
plays it with his sister out onour back deck and with his
friends when he can at recessand it's just like he is finding
(11:49):
what he's looking for becausehe just loves it.
So at the yard sale that'sgoing to stand out to him oh, a
baseball.
I don't have like a realbaseball.
He was using like a littleplastic, some other kind of ball
for a while and now he has areal baseball and you know and a
real glove, for that matter.
Yep and so, and he could holdhimself back and say, well, I
(12:09):
don't have like a professionaljersey, I can't play baseball
without the right clothes, or Idon't have like a team or the
right ball, or enough people, orwhatever.
Speaker 2 (12:21):
Or a sponsorship deal .
You know it's like.
You know you can just goendlessly, and yet he's like I
will find a sphere and hit itwith a stick and I will play by
myself if I have to.
He will throw the ball in theair and swing at it and miss all
day.
And yet he just romanticizesabout baseball and he doesn't
watch baseball on tv, he doesn'tromanticize on it, like like
(12:45):
stats or like baseball cards.
He has like one baseball card,I think, and so like.
Yeah, it just shows you thatlike baseball right now for him
and this might change as he getsolder has just completely
intrinsic value.
It has no extrinsic value.
This idea of like this willmake people like me or like it's
for him, it's I, like it, it'sfun yeah it's something I want
(13:09):
to keep doing, and then, as soonas that's gone, it does.
It just becomes a chore.
Or it becomes something youwish you weren't stuck in but
it's always going to be betterto or it becomes something you
wish you weren't stuck in.
Speaker 1 (13:18):
But it's always going to be better to pursue it from
that place of love and notbelieving that it has to be
professional, that it has to bea certain way, than for him to
just sit and dream about it andnot do anything with the
resources he has.
Like hitting a sphere with astick is always going to be
better than like sitting anddreaming about being a
professional baseball player.
the stick is always going to bebetter than like sitting and
dreaming about being aprofessional baseball player.
(13:38):
So, in the same way, if youwant to make movies for a career
or just because you love it,moving forward with what you
have to make, what you can rightnow, is always going to be
better than sitting and dreamingabout someday when I have tons
of money and someday when I haveall the resources and all the
skills and all the people.
Then I'm going to make thisexcellent film, and you never
actually do take action thatmoves you towards that future.
(14:02):
And so I think starting from aplace of hobby is really nice
because it's just like for fun.
When I have time I work on thisand I do it with what I have
because I love it, andeventually, if you keep doing a
thing that you love, eventuallyit starts, you start to get good
(14:24):
at it and that starts to becomevaluable and you share it with
people and they start to engageand eventually you'll make
something, or you'll be goodenough at making things that
people will pay you to makethings, and maybe it's just that
you make your first feature forreally cheap with money.
You can scrounge here and therewith your friends.
However you get it made.
You make it this is how all thebest do it and then you put it
(14:46):
out there and maybe you make ahuge profit.
Maybe you don't, but you'vemade a film.
And then you make another oneand eventually you make ones
that start to bring in money,and you can get to the point
where you are making enoughmoney off of this hobby that you
could quit your day job andjust do the hobby if you want to
.
Speaker 2 (15:07):
But it could also just be a hobby right, well, and
does it lose any of its valueif it is just a hobby?
And does it lose any of itsvalue if it is just a hobby?
It shouldn't right, because thevalue is intrinsic.
The value is sort ofexperiential or emotional or
spiritual.
It's not monetary necessarilywhen you're doing it for the
(15:35):
love of it, which is kind ofwhat you know.
I learned the definition of theword amateur, uh, from francis
or coppola, who talked about therainmaker being his last film
that he made for hollywood as ahighly paid hollywood director.
And he said as opposed to anamateur, which is someone who
does it for the love of it yeahspeaking of which he's releasing
a new movie that he spent 120million of his own dollars on,
which you know.
(15:55):
Why don't you just go spend$120 million on your own movie?
You know, I guess, um, not allof us are Francis Ford Coppola,
but and I hope it all works outfor the best and that his movie
is good the um, um.
But I mean, if you wantdesperately to quit, whatever
your current source of income is, um, this is still the best way
(16:19):
is to just keep finding asustainable, repetitive,
habitual way to make film, and Ithink we might be, maybe Ann
and I've been guilty of this inthe past.
But I think that I reallyappreciate a lot of Noam Kroll's
thoughts on this topic in thathe says, first of all, almost
(16:41):
nobody who graduates from filmschool actually makes a feature
film.
Almost nobody who makes afeature film, even less make a
second feature film.
And he's like but right now I'mreading a book called Atomic
Habits.
The more you do something, themore it informs a certain sense
of identity in you, and so whenyou make a film, you start to
(17:04):
say maybe I'm a filmmaker.
And then you make another filmand another, and then pretty
soon you're like this is justwho I am, this is what I do, and
because you believe that aboutyourself, you just keep making
movies.
So thus the hobby, thus, thusthe habit, thus this mentality
(17:27):
of creating an identity foryourself of making films.
Um, I think is really helpfulto just take out that
self-sabotage that's in yourbrain, that's keeping you from
making films because you don'thave enough experience, money,
equipment, whatever it's likejust or do, or to prevent doing
(17:49):
something impulsive or rash ordesperate, like people who
actually do need to make money,who quit their day jobs and say
I'm going to make feature films.
Speaker 1 (18:01):
And then you become kind of desperate, like, oh, I
need money because I have to eat, I have to make something good
because I have to eat, and thatpressure actually doesn't help
your work.
Instead of being motivated andfueled by love and passion,
you're fueled by fear andpressure, and that desperation
usually leads to bad decisionsand people lose their homes and
(18:21):
they lose their relationshipsand sometimes make really bad
choices from that place.
Speaker 2 (18:26):
Well, and everything you fear.
If you operate out of that fear, you almost always guarantee
that what you fear is going toeventually happen.
Like I'm so scared I'm going tomake a really bad movie and
that no one's going to like it,and then you're going to make a
movie out of that fear.
Speaker 1 (18:40):
Well, what you focus on is what you create.
Speaker 2 (18:42):
Yeah, exactly, and so it's.
It's so inevitable, and socreating a system in which you
can make movies fearlessly isgoing to be way better for you.
Now we are sort of financiallydependent on our working as
feature-length filmmakers, andyet I still don't have to
operate out of fear.
I can.
(19:03):
I still have the same job thatthat, you know, some of us who
are still not full-time at thishave, which is to make films out
of a place of creativity and aplace of love as opposed to a
place of fear, and so I justhave to have faith that I'm
(19:23):
going to make another one, andI'm going to make another one
after that, and if this onedoesn't quite turn out, the next
one might, and I'm just goingto keep making movies, and
that's fine.
You know, if you're on tour,not every single night is going
to be your best night, butyou're going to do your best.
Speaker 1 (19:47):
And it's super fun because, hey, hey, you're
playing music and you love musicbecause music is good for your
soul and you love connectingwith people.
It's the same with movies.
Well, and it was that way forus, even though it's hard to
differentiate because we werefreelancers.
Doing film work, commercialfilm and event film, videography
was not the dream, that was ourday job, and so we did passion
projects on the side, in our ownfree time.
After we put our kids to bed,we would meet with our friends,
we would write, we would planthese films and then eventually,
(20:11):
we were able to set aside acouple of weeks and make our
first feature.
That took years to edit becausewe were doing the edit in our
free time.
And now we're finally at a placewhere we can actually give it
all our time to work on thefeatures that we're doing, which
is kind of the dream and we'renot like big names or anything,
but this is a dream for us to beable to do it we've figured out
(20:35):
a system that creates enoughvalue to keep our bills paid you
know, know, yeah, it's justenough.
Just enough to take care of ourfamily and move forward.
Speaker 2 (20:45):
Without a lot of surety.
But the one piece of suretyI've learned is that it's not a
simple technique or a way toraise money or a certain network
connection that helps me have aguy in my back pocket who keeps
funding all my stuff.
None of those things are thekey.
The key is to stay creative andto make this a habit so that
I'm not scared.
(21:07):
You know, like, just if I keepcreating, the money will just
come, but if I keep thinking Idon't have enough, then I'm
actually going to spend moremoney.
Like I'm going to always thinkI need to spend more and buy
more to be able to make, whenreally I need to make more to be
(21:29):
able to spend.
Speaker 1 (21:33):
I feel like consistency is maybe the highest
indicator of success that I canthink of.
Even with practicing piano,practicing for a whole hour
before my lesson once a week isnot going to be nearly as
effective as practicing for twominutes every single day leading
up to that lesson.
Speaker 2 (21:51):
Two minutes might be an extremely short amount of
time, but even the same amountof time.
Speaker 1 (21:55):
Let's say I did an hour total, but it was spread
out across a week versus in onechunk, and doing it spread out
is more effective.
Speaker 2 (22:06):
And to your point.
Some people might say well, youcan't just make movies for an
hour or two a day.
And I will beg to differ,because we have made a feature
film, for the most part about anhour or two a day, like I mean,
some days it was a lot morehours than that, some weeks it
was zero hours, it wasn't hyperconsistent, but we never gave up
(22:27):
and we just kept shipping awayat it.
And that first feature I reallydo do.
I do think it helped crack thatsort of door of opportunity,
yeah, sort of door ofopportunity.
Yeah, sort of cracking that walldown, that barrier down, in
terms of just helping investorsfeel like they can buy shares in
(22:50):
the projects that we aredeveloping, and the selling of
those shares is what'ssupporting us financially.
And then you start to getscared and think what if I can't
make my investors money back?
The only answer to that is tonot feel fear and to keep
creating, and that's the bestchance you and your investors
have of survival.
(23:12):
Right, it's like just keepmaking the best thing you can
and make it from a place ofhonesty.
Like Craig Mazin and JohnAugust say on script notes notes
all the time.
The best script to write is theone you want to see get made.
do not try and write to what youthink other people want to make
you know like, don't try andmake movies what you think
(23:32):
people are going to like or wantto watch.
Just create and keep creatingand honing and learning and
refining and everything's goingto be fine if you are creative
and you are contributing.
Speaker 1 (23:45):
It affects the final product.
It definitely is If you'recoming from a place of love and
passion for what you do.
I feel like I tell this story alot, but when I was in high
school I remember watching atalent show and seeing side by
side one person get up and singwho was actually a really good
singer but super nervous, and Ijust felt like stress the whole
(24:09):
performance because I wasnervous for this person, because
they were nervous.
And then someone else gettingup who was not nearly as
talented at singing and justhave a grand old time performing
and singing this song andbecause he was having so much
fun, everyone loved it and hadso much fun watching it, and so
in the end the attitude matteredso much more than the talent,
(24:33):
even because your experience ofmaking what you make has an
effect on those who watch whatyou make.
And so if you're approaching itfrom a place of love and fun
and you can find that andsometimes I lose that and I have
to kind of go back to like, howdid I fall in love with films
in the first place, or watchthose movies that bring back
(24:54):
that love for me then that willtranslate into your work.
And also there's no guarantees.
You know, and if you're aspiritual person I am, we are
and maybe you aren't butdefinitely we have been
prayerful about our decisionwhen to switch over into doing
(25:15):
this as a full-time career, andthat also gives me a lot of sure
.
I guess like, yeah, confidencemoving forward, I feel like the
time is right and I trust in Godand he's always provided for us
and our family.
So I'd invite you to beprayerful about your decision,
but also to not be rushed aboutgetting to that point, because
(25:36):
if it is a hobby and it'ssomething you love, just love
doing it when you're able to doit.
But if it feels right, trustyourself you'll know yeah,
you'll know, when that timecomes that it's time that you
can.
You can take that leap, andit's always going to be a leap.
It's not usually like here yougo, you're all set for the next
few years.
Do it if you want to yeah, it'snever gonna.
Speaker 2 (25:58):
Yeah, exactly, it's never like.
Here's all the money that willwipe away all your fears.
Speaker 1 (26:03):
You're all set.
You made a million dollars onyour film.
Speaker 2 (26:05):
If someone paid you a million dollars and gave you a
hundred million dollar budget tomake a movie you'd still have
plenty to fear and be scared andstressed about, because you'd
be so scared that the project isgoing to fall apart and this is
going to be your last movie youever get to make because it's
so high budget.
There's tons to be scared of.
So just choose now not to bescared of your limited resources
and you'll have practiced notfeeling scared of unlimited
(26:29):
resources right?
So you know, fear just neverhelps and consistency, habit,
love, bell always helps.
So, anyway, hopefully that washelpful have a a good one.
Speaker 1 (26:45):
We'll see you next time bye.
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