Ep. 96 - Self Distributing on Film Hub with Lenni Uitto

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Director of the post-apocalyptic film, Permafrost, Lenni Uitto takes us behind the scenes and shares his experiences making and ultimately self-distributing his first film with Film Hub. 

Join us as we unravel Lenni's journey from coding to creating post-apocalyptic films. From making camping videos on YouTube to experimenting with After Effects and even taking acting classes, Lenny's story is a testament to how following your passion can lead to unexpected and rewarding paths. We explore how his love for storytelling led him to create short films that have garnered impressive online viewership, followed by his first feature film.

Reflecting on his own experiences, Lenni shares the highs and lows of quitting a stable job to chase the dreams of acting and filmmaking. The importance of financial stability became evident as he navigated the challenges of an industry hit hard by the COVID-19 pandemic. With a touch of serendipity, a friend's intriguing story idea sparked the creation of his post-apocalyptic film, showcasing creativity and resilience to produce meaningful art amidst adversity.

Expect an in-depth look at the nitty-gritty of indie filmmaking, from budgeting and resourcefulness to the crucial role of collaboration. We discuss practical tips on managing costs, securing essential equipment, and feeding a cast and crew on a budget. We also dive into film distribution, marketing strategies, the process of audience targeting, and specifically Lenni's experience and results so far partnering with an aggregator, Film Hub, to release his movie.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 2 (00:02):
okay, all right lenny welcome to the welcome to the
podcast podcast.

Speaker 1 (00:08):
I like, at this, like moment of doubt, welcome, where
are we?
What is the name of thispodcast?
because I was at film and family, which is the name is the name,
but we have changed've changedthe name a couple times.
Well, now that we all areagreed that we are on the
podcast called by its name,which is Film and Family Welcome

(00:32):
, lenny, thanks.
So you're based out of Utah andyou directed a film recently
called Permafrost, which we'llget into and released it, and
we're going to talk about yourdistribution journey as well as
your filmmaking journey.
But first, before all that, I'dlove to get a little background

(00:54):
on your like early, earlyfilmmaking journey.
So so I didn't always want tomake movies.

Speaker 3 (01:10):
That's the funny part about it.
I went to college in computerscience so I was thinking I'm
going to make video games orsomething.
And then I was like I decided Ikind of strayed away from that
idea because I heard that videogame making was really time
consuming and I was like, oh, ifI ever do that, I'll never have
a family or this or that.
You hear about video gamemakers back then where they just

(01:32):
sleep at their office, anyhow.
So I was like, oh, yeah, videogames cool and stuff.
And so I got into that.
I got a degree in computerscience and then I started
working as a software engineer,which is completely different
than any path in filmmaking,right.
And then, yeah, you know likeit's, it's just different.
It's not, as, at least I don'tthink it's as creative as, uh,

(01:56):
filmmaking and telling stories.
Um, so I did that.
And then I started making theselittle videos in the forest.
This is like my whole story, Iguess.
Yeah, yeah, but um, so Istarted making these little
videos in the forest.
This is like my whole story, Iguess.
But um, so I started makingthese little like camping videos
and I post them on YouTube andthere's still a channel out
there, please don't look for it,but just me like camping in the

(02:17):
woods and just making a fireand and I do like I just like a
little GoPro or whatever.
It was really shoddy filmmaking, and trust me when I say that
it was shoddy, and so I wasdoing that for the longest, for
the little while, and I foundthat I really enjoyed it.
My editing was horrible backthen, though.

(02:38):
I'd have these really longtakes of like you're just like,
why would anyone watch this?
And then I started.
I was like, well, this isreally fun.
And I started playing withafter effects after that.
So it kind of was like medipping my feet into filmmaking
and then I started doing aftereffects, you know, lightsaber
effects and stuff, like funthings that people want to play

(03:00):
with when they're first, likeyou know, getting want to play
with when they're first, likeyou know, getting into that, and
they go right, yeah, you canmake a lightsaber, yeah, um, so
I did that and, like, none ofthose videos are online anymore.
I had some really, really, uh,ridiculous videos I made.
Uh, they're still on youtubebut they're all like private now

(03:22):
.
And so I did that and, um, Istarted taking an acting class
with a local, jim Stevens.
His class was like ActorsAnonymous, aa, which it was, you
know, aa for actors, and yeah.
So I started taking that and Ithink I like, I really like

(03:44):
acting, because it's a form ofstorytelling from the actor's
point of view, and I did thatfor a while.
And then I was like well, I wantto make a film.
And I had a friend who was anactor and so I was like there's
a little short film, you knowdirected this thing and that
kind of was, I guess, where Iwas like, okay, I really like

(04:04):
doing this and I felt like I waspretty good at it too.
I knew I wasn't making likereally horrible stuff at that
time and it was post-apocalypticand that's kind of like what I
really enjoy watching, and sothat's kind of a lot of my stuff
has been post-apocalyptic and Ihave done some stuff that's
like not so post-apocalyptic butum, it's just.

(04:27):
Yeah, I'm just drawn to thatgenre because it's the
storytelling I like doing.
I think also, having a worldwhere things aren't normal
allows you to take more extrememeasures on circumstances with
different characters and, um, ina normal world sometimes
there's logic that says thatdoesn't make sense and so from

(04:48):
that standpoint, I think, um, I,I enjoyed doing the
post-apocalyptic thing and sothat's kind of where I sort of
started doing these short films.
Um, I'm trying to like not belike super verbose and just say
so much that you're just likewow but that's kind of getting

(05:09):
into.
Sorry, do you have anyquestions?

Speaker 1 (05:11):
Oh, I was just saying that's kind of leading into
this like um like.
Does that lead straight intoyour first feature, or did you
do a lot more shorts after that?

Speaker 3 (05:21):
No, so I did a good amount of shorts.
There's actually a series ofvideos called W R O L the
channel, my youtube channel, andthat's where I kind of like was
making these shorts and uh, oneof them got like 300 000 views
and another one got like amillion.
It was almost to a millionviews now, but it was like it

(05:42):
was closer to 700 000 it got um.
So I had a little bit ofsuccess with those and it was
still me just like dabbling andtrying things and I'm still
trying things.
Honestly, like as a filmmaker,you're always learning.
Um, so, like, I just did twoshorts.
Uh, it was like january, likedecember january, I think.
I shot two things and Ireleased them.

(06:04):
Uh, what, like two months aftershooting them.
Uh, so just recently there wasone that was released as well.
Um, but I shot these two shortswith the idea of I want to try
out these new lenses.
You know, I just want to dosomething with, like some
choreographed fight scenes andI've done fight scenes before,
but it's like's like it's it'sso much to learn in that like

(06:26):
realm.
To go into a feature and startputting that out there, like
putting fight stuff in there, isreally complicated, I feel like
.
So I do short films more aslike a playground.
It's like let's test this outand um, I've kind of come to the
conclusion it's it's almostimpossible to make money off of
short films and so, like a lotof the conclusion, it's almost
impossible to make money off ofshort films and so, like a lot

(06:48):
of the time, it's friends ofmine from class I'll do an
acting class on Thursdays and alot of my friends will be there
that are actors, and so it'slike, hey, you want to make a
short film, let's go and do this.
And, like, a lot of them aretotally down to do it because
it's usually quality stuff andpeople can use it on their reels
and stuff like that.

(07:08):
So kind of saves me of havingto spend money to learn
something new and at the sametime they get some.
It's a trade, you know.
Yeah, I think at the phase thatyou're at as a filmmaker, you
kind of sometimes have to dothat.
Like you have to trade for youknow different things.
You can't always be paying, youknow, 100, 200 bucks a day
because you may not have thebudget for it, um, but you still

(07:31):
want to be able to be creativeand learn these things and so
like.
Why, why have that be the reasonthat you didn't do it?

Speaker 2 (07:37):
you know, yeah, yeah so I'm curious, this whole time
as you've been experimenting anddelving into acting and film,
are you working a day job?
You know how are you?

Speaker 3 (07:50):
Yeah, so I was working my day job, I took a
year off.
I was honestly like I was likeI really want to do this, I
really want to do this, and youknow me being naive.
I was like I'm going to do thisand do this full time and so I
stopped my day job.
I literally quit.
I was like I'm going to do thisand do this full time and so I
stopped my day job.
I literally quit.
I was like, hey guys, I'm done.
I quit my job, which is stupid,because it's like okay, you're

(08:14):
not going to get anyunemployment.
Like funding is cut offcompletely.
So and money is important to adegree when you want to do this
stuff, because you got to live,you got to have I mean, you have
bills, it's just part of life.
Yeah, so I did that for a yearand I kind of lived off my, my
savings and stuff.
And then I was like I'm gettingless done while I'm doing this

(08:39):
than when I was working my job.
So I was like no, I need towork a job so I can get more
done.
You know, just because I thinkthat like if you don't have that
funding, it slows you downquite a bit, but also you're
just I don't know what it is,but I for me, personally it just
slowed me down and so workingthe day job keeps me on the

(09:03):
hustle.

Speaker 1 (09:04):
I know it's a lot more work, but it just keeps you
way more active and like you'reworking for your dream and do
it and like and try harder to toto make it happen and actually

(09:29):
get like, get your dream ofmaking that as your career like
I want to dig into that a hairjust because I think it's really
interesting, like, do you feellike the the lack of
productivity was coming from aplace of, like you were spending
time trying to raise financesbecause you were worried about
money, or was it like adiscouragement, that kind of hit
now that it was your, now thatyou were doing film full-time

(09:50):
for a year?
Like what?

Speaker 3 (09:51):
I don't remember if my full focus was I want to do
acting or if I want to dofilmmaking at the time, and it
might have been like, oh, I wantto do the acting thing.
So I was auditioning, I wasdoing my stuff.
But, like anyone who's been anactor knows, it's like it's very
sparse.
When you hit like you get arole.
It's like you put in, I don'tknow, 100 auditions and maybe

(10:14):
like 10 of those will actuallylead to something or a callback
or whatever, and then five maybethat would be high.
Yeah, like it's really I forgetwhat the ratios are, but like,
the amount of bookings you getas an actor compared to the
amount of auditions you do iscrazy.

Speaker 1 (10:30):
I think it's like 60 to one or something.

Speaker 3 (10:32):
Is it 60 to one?
Okay?

Speaker 2 (10:34):
Big actor said it was like for every 64 auditions she
got a role or something.

Speaker 1 (10:38):
But yeah, he was a bigger act and those aren't even
like necessarily big roles.
It might even be like a decentgood commercial, you know it'd
be like you'd get like that dayplayer role.

Speaker 3 (10:48):
You know that like which, that can't float you.
So I mean like that's where thejob is really important because
, yeah, that's what floats you.
The the other stuff is yourpassion.
It's like what you want to doand as soon as you can do that
full time, then you you can saygoodbye to the job.
But I think until you're you'refunding like how much you're
making from that passion, youcan't just drop that day job and

(11:10):
say, hey, I'm going to do this.

Speaker 2 (11:12):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (11:12):
Otherwise, you're just going to be that starving
actor, starving filmmaker forthe longest time and you're
going to hate life because youcan't enjoy it without I don't
know, just the ability to livein society, which requires money
.

Speaker 2 (11:26):
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (11:28):
So how did we wake up one day and say permafrost.

Speaker 3 (11:37):
Well, covid had hit and I had a friend of mine, a
good friend, rochelle.
She was in class as well andshe was like I really I would
want to see you in this story.
And she had this idea which wasbasically this guy that saves
his little girl, and that waslike her idea for a story.

(11:58):
And then, you know, covid hitwhich was like okay, acting,
stuff's all frozen right nowbecause COVID's here, and I
think this was like before evenlike they started allowing
reshoot, like actually startingto shoot again, you know, with
restrictions and stuff.
And so I was like, well, it's,it's winter as well, like that's

(12:19):
another reason in Utah no one'sshooting things because it's
just snow everywhere, unlessyour film needs snow.
And so I was like, well, I wantto shoot something.
So I was like I'm going towrite this, start writing it.
And you know, post-apocalypticsort of just went into that.
My creativity of that I likekind of flowed into it, because

(12:41):
I think originally her idea waslike kind of more modern, float
into it.
Because I think originally heridea was like kind of more
modern.
It was like some guy saved,like a military guy saved this
kid, um some car wreck where herparents died or something, and
I forget exactly what thedetails of her original idea
were, but I was like I had likethis I had like some dream about
bounty hunters and stuff and Ihad probably been watching

(13:04):
mandalorian.
There's a lot of things thatI'm like my storytelling uh,
unconsciously or subconsciously,whatever you want to call it,
and so like I had some dream andit was uh, I put a part of it
in the film.
It's like put your chain up,son, and it's one of the things
the, the characters in the, thestory says to him and um, and so

(13:26):
the characters didn't have this, like the bounty hunters have
like a big old fat chain withthis hammer on it, and so that's
kind of what that was referringto.
But, um, yeah, so like now I'mlike going down a rabbit hole,
but like basically, a lot oflike ideas and things kind of
got put in that story, wrote it,and then we started shooting it

(13:47):
.
I think it was around Decemberor so I had some time off from
work and so I spent like a weekor two just shooting stuff that
only required myself, so I couldget a really small crew out to
shoot this.
So you just need your DP andthe sound person, and you know,
that's more or less all you need, uh, to shoot a lot of it.

(14:07):
So, um, when I could, I waslike, okay, I'm free, um, I can
get friends who are free as well, let's go shoot this.
And we'd go and shoot a bunchof different little things that
needed to be shot.
And then, uh, for the days thatwe needed more actors, we still
kept really small crew.

(14:28):
Most of the time people werepaid.
If it was a good friend orwhatever or whatnot, we would do
trade or it's like, oh, I oweyou one.
Most of the time it was payingthe DP, it was paying the AC, it
was paying an actor to come out, depending on the actor,
obviously, because some actors,like I said, they're just really

(14:49):
good friends and so they comeout and do it because they want
to, they want to help out andmake the film happen, um, which
always grateful for for that,you know, um, and that's like
from an indie uh place thatthat's coming from.
I know, if you a budget,obviously you want to pay
everyone on set, right.
When you don't have a budget,you kind of like have to do

(15:10):
something to to make your, yourdream project happen, and so
yeah.

Speaker 1 (15:16):
So so if we get into some logistics here, like what
did that look like from ideationto script, to green light?
Did you guys start with zeroand just kind of like trickle
the dollars in, or did you Likesave up some money or did you?

Speaker 3 (15:27):
raise.
So there was.
There was like okay, so I had I.
There's always a little bit ofmoney that I'd have and over the
time that we shot it it would.
It was enough to pay whoeverneeded to come on set and
perform.
Obviously, at the end of theyear you have your taxes and if
you get money back it's kind ofnice, you know, and so some of

(15:50):
the time that that money wasvery helpful to help finance it
as well.
Like that's just.

Speaker 2 (15:57):
Tax return yeah.

Speaker 3 (15:58):
Yeah, so like there'd be like that, like it was two
years when we were actually juststill shooting, so we kind of
like two tax returns, but it'swinters that we're shooting, so
those go over during tax seasonand get a little bit back.
So yeah, by no means do we havelike a huge budget.
We were, uh, we were under,I'll say we were under 50 000.

(16:21):
Let's just say conservativelywhich which just is a very indie
budget and and I think anyonecan kind of agree to that,
because people shoot short filmson the budget we had.

Speaker 2 (16:37):
Yeah, from way more Well and all the best filmmakers
start making a feature with asuper, super low budget Right.
There's very rare exceptions,but most of them are.
That's their history, if you goback and look.
They all made ChristopherNolanolan, made following for 6k
and six to nine.

Speaker 1 (16:57):
I hear the number floating differently and, like
rodriguez, is 7k well, andthey're trying to translate it
to today's and then none of ittranslates well, because it's
like what is that in today'sdollars, right?
The?
Point is it's super cheap, it'sout of their pocket, kind of
stuff yeah, lois jao is a goodexample of someone more recently
making two films for probablyboth under 50 K, like they were

(17:19):
very cheap.

Speaker 3 (17:21):
I and, yeah, that's kind of where a permafrost came
about.
We did not have any kind of bigbudget, it was kind of just a
lot of passionate people whocame together and, you know,
took words into an actual movie.
I will say my day job did helpa little bit in terms of, like

(17:42):
we shot on a Komodo red Komodoand I was able to purchase one
of those because of my day job.
And then lenses.
I picked up some iron glasslenses if you're familiar with
those and like at the time theywere still kind of like unknowns
, they hadn't been used bybatman.
uh, because I know there's likea couple scenes where batman
used the iron glass lenses yeah,yeah yeah, um, and then dune,

(18:04):
just recently uh used them aswell, but like at the time I I
just sort of heard about them.
I was like, oh cool, these,these sound really cool and they
look pretty cool.
I mean vintage lenses likethese it was like zeiss glass
from like the cold war kind oflike is what they uh advertised
it as, I think, and um, yeah, soI picked up a set of those and

(18:26):
then that's what we shot it on,and so, like, a lot of the
equipment I already had, so Ididn't have to spend money on
the equipment, renting it, um,and so a lot of the money went
to, like I said, it went to castand crew, um, and to wardrobe.
Like wardrobe was mostly, uh,army surplus stuff which is also
affordable because it's it'ssurplus, yeah yeah that's

(18:50):
awesome.

Speaker 1 (18:51):
I I mean.
I know this is a randomquestion, but it's something we
always forget about when we'remaking like these in our minds
and we're like zero dollars, howdo I do this for no money?
What did you guys do for food?
Oh, so food?
Just foraged it in the winter.

Speaker 3 (19:04):
We do like okay.
So chili works really well.
I mean, if you bring out astove into the woods and like
propane and you cook chili orhot dogs, like that's one way
you can really, uh, decrease thecosts that you have to spend on
food.
Um, recently, on the last fewshorts I shot, I just like went
to Costco, bought a thing ofchili.
Like they have those tubs ofchili at Costco, I don't know at

(19:25):
least in Utah they do um whereyou buy, like I don't know, it's
like 20 bucks for a thing ofchili, and so you can buy like
two of those and then just getsome vegetables, cut them up,
throw them in it as well, andyou can kind of make a little
bit more gourmet, just with alittle bit of extra effort and,
um, it's affordable, uh did youmake the chili like the chili,
it's just a tub of chili butlike did you?

Speaker 1 (19:46):
did you prep it, like you brought it to say?

Speaker 3 (19:48):
I mean we just throw it in the slow cooker or on the
like a what's it called, one ofthose dutch ovens or whatever
you know, cook it over a stoveum so I mean that's mad props
because I feel like I love it.

Speaker 1 (20:00):
Even just like picking up pizza sometimes if
I'm in the middle of productionfeels like the straw that will
break the camel's back likethat's too much for you.
You're just like yeah, man, Ijust brought the food myself and
you make that sound like pizza?

Speaker 3 (20:12):
is that like everyone's like?
Oh, they're bringing littlescissors, it's always like a
negative connotation to it.
It's kind of funny.
But like you get like a tub ofchili from costco and all of a
sudden it's like people are like, oh yeah, meat, that's if
they're not vegan, obviously,but yeah, yeah, I mean costco, I
think could be.

(20:32):
If you do it right, you can getsomething for cheap food-wise.

Speaker 2 (20:37):
So you did provide food for your actors on set.

Speaker 3 (20:41):
And it was chili most days.
I'm trying to remember we hadhot dogs one day.
I think we did burgers anotherday.
It was just like you get thingsthat you can cook over a
barbecue that's hooked up to apropane and you can take that
wherever you.
You can cook over a barbecuethat's hooked up to a propane
and, like you can take thatwherever you need it.
And we show a lot of stuff injust the middle of the woods.

Speaker 1 (21:00):
So it's like I love bathrooms honestly Well those
are things to consider whenyou're right, Cause we had, we,
we worked on a movie that neveractually happened, but it was.
It hadn't happened yet, butit's a post-apocalyptic in the
woods kind of thing, but that islike where are people going to
go to the bathroom?

Speaker 2 (21:19):
Where are they going to park If you have to?

Speaker 1 (21:20):
do overnights.
How do you sleep?
You know where do you sleep.
How do you eat?
We had to get to the locationon four wheelers.

Speaker 2 (21:26):
So we're like how are we going to coordinate, like
getting everyone over there?
It gets crazy.

Speaker 3 (21:44):
It does fast.
So that's why I'm like, youknow, you kind of say like we're
just going to spend on thesevery few things, and so that's
why I'm asking, like, what'd youdo for food?
You know, because like when youhave a lot of money, it's like
you hire someone and they figureit out.
You know it's like, yeah, foodwasn't too bad.
Bathrooms so like we had abathroom right there.
Um, we tried doing the tentporta potty.
I don't know if you've everseen or used one of those.
A lot of people just never usedit.
People are not down with goingin there and doing their

(22:07):
business.
But uh, yeah, the most of thetimes we had the actual bathroom
there.
It was it.
It was nice Cause it was coldoutside.
So yeah those are an actualbuilding, so it's like somewhat
warmer.

Speaker 1 (22:21):
Yeah, but that's awesome.
It's true, I love it.
You have to rent a porta pottyas well.

Speaker 3 (22:26):
I've done that before as well, Renting porta potties.
It's like I forget if it's likeyou if you rented it for a
month it'd be 300 bucks, but fora day it's just the same price,
because they don't really rentit or they have to, like go and
clean it out and prep it andeverything.

Speaker 1 (22:42):
So I think they charge you the same amount for a
month or for a day, I don'tknow more than I thought it
would be.

Speaker 2 (22:48):
It's like dang, that's but if that's how much it
is for a month, that's yeah,yeah for a month.

Speaker 3 (22:52):
It's not bad at all, like, yeah, then two, three
hundred bucks and you got aport-a-potty for the whole month
yeah, yeah, yeah one of ourlocations required it because
they were like, oh, we don'thave a bathroom on the grounds.
We had like a there's like acave in one of the scenes and it
was on this uh haunted uh houseum location and the location

(23:13):
was cheap, like they didn'tcharge as much to shoot there
but to get the port-a-potty itcost more like oh, we need that,
so okay, that's good, butthat's funny.

Speaker 1 (23:23):
That's funny.
Um so, so this is your firstfeature, permafrost, and so I'm
I'm curious to know, like whatwere your goals with this?
Was it just like I going tohave made a movie, or was it
like I really want to make mymoney back on this?
Or was it like I don't know, Iwant to get discovered with this
, like what was?

Speaker 3 (23:43):
your.
It was mostly I want to tellthe story.
That was like my drive.
It was not thoughts of I'mgoing to make big bucks on this.
There's always that thoughtlike maybe you can, but like
maybe you can, but likerealistically, there was no
expectation of that for me.
It was mostly I want to tellthis story and the acting part.

(24:03):
I kind of looked at a fewdifferent actors.
It wasn't like, oh, I'm goingto make this so I can be the
lead.
And it was not that, becausewhen it came down to it, I was
like I'm fully available and ifI get a different actor, I don't
know how their availability andthat's also a really big
problem with, uh, shooting withactors is what's their
availability?
And some actors you're like, oh, this person's perfect for the

(24:27):
role and then you find out thatthey're just not available ever
and you're like, well, whatgives?
Like you know, it kind of sucks.
So, having myself in the leadrole, like the person who needs
to be most available, I'mavailable.
And, um, the little girl whowas the second person that's
needing to be most available,rochelle was the mother and she

(24:49):
was totally excited for herdaughter to be in that and she
was available whenever we neededher.
So, um, yeah, when you'reshooting something that's low
budget, you know you have tokind of get people who are
passionate, that they're likeyeah, I'm, I'm in this, let's do
this, because otherwise you'regoing to take like probably

(25:10):
would have taken us longer thanthree years to do this thing.

Speaker 1 (25:13):
But yeah yeah so that was the other thing I was gonna
ask was like you shot over twowinters and then how long did
post take?

Speaker 3 (25:19):
post was a year because I was working and I I
want to say that that probablywas kind of.
The negative is that whenyou're working you get exhausted
and then it's like you got tocome home and do some editing.
I'm at a computer all day andit's like come home to a
computer and do more, it's like,oh man, not my, not the most

(25:40):
exciting thing to do, at least.
If you're like going out andshooting, then it's different.
You know, you're on set, you'rewith people, you're having fun
computer it's just I don't know.
So if that's like, if all I didwas edit and I didn't have the
day job, it would be easier, butthere's like a little bit I did
was edit and I didn't have theday job, it would be easier, but
there's like a little bit ofthat.
I think, um, what is it?
Attrition, or are you get tiredof just being at a computer all

(26:03):
day?
And it's like come home andhave to do that more?

Speaker 1 (26:04):
It's like, uh, but no , I feel you there.

Speaker 2 (26:17):
I mean than ours.
But the uh oh was it?
Oh, ours.
Ours took three years almost.
It was so quick that we filmedit and that kind of shot we shot
ourselves in the foot with thatand then it took yeah like
three years to edit we did, wewere script fast, green light
fast shot was it uh you guysediting, or was it someone else?

Speaker 1 (26:30):
um we brought.
So danielle thompson bova didum a lot of editing with us, but
we started and finished theediting process ourselves, and
so it was a lot of weeks of usjust looking at it.

Speaker 3 (26:43):
It's not easy.
And I think the other thing islike when you watch it so much,
like at some point it makes ithard also to see what needs to
change.
And I did bring in other fellowfilmmakers that are friends of
mine.
So I'd be like, hey, can youcome over, come watch?
You know the edit.
And they were super helpful andnice and came out and like

(27:07):
participated and gave goodfeedback that like went into the
final product.
Yeah, and I think that'simportant, um, kind of just
having that open mind andcollaborating with other
filmmakers.
Uh, and I also hear that, likeyou know a lot of these big

(27:27):
hollywood studio guys.
They do the same thing with um,friends of theirs, oh yeah,
like big directors who we knowor we watch their films, and
it's like they're they'recollaborating with other
directors to hey, check out myfilm, what do you guys think?

Speaker 1 (27:41):
and then they get feedback and they make changes
and improve the film, so I hadthis yeah, I said this thing for
a while where I kept hearingfilmmakers talk about like when.
When steven spielberg watchedone of the early cuts, he gave
us this feedback and I was likeright we're getting steven
spielberg damn movies and then Ikind of realized that all those
people actually had spielbergas an executive producer on the
movie, because it was like anamblin movie or like a movie

(28:01):
like, oh, that's why spielbergwas watching all these cuts.
But at first I was like, is hejust watching everyone's movies?

Speaker 3 (28:07):
like you get to like a certain level and he has like
this I don't know I was likefrustrated, because I was like I
don't have know, I think ifthey're friends too, like I
think there's that.
Hey, can you check this out,make sure it's like good, and I
think that a lot of those guysare all very like connected,
like right, this was like ayoung guy that was like first
man spielberg was watching likeearly cuts on first man, but I

(28:29):
think it's because first thedreamworks film.

Speaker 1 (28:31):
I think well, and I love that for all the people I
went to film school with whoalso wanted to be directors,
like I did and it's like well,we're never going to work on the
same project together becausewe want to do the same role
right and then I realized thatwe can still work together
actually a lot, because we'retrading feedback on each other's
screenplays and edits and thereis that collaboration still and

(28:54):
ann and I are huge believers intesting, testing, testing,
testing and what we got reallygood at on the loved and lost,
our first feature was testingthe edit, but what we wish we'd
gotten that good at, what we'velearned is test the script like
that, like have everyone youknow trust read that script and
test it, and test it, and testit until you feel yeah, I think

(29:14):
after you make your firstfeature, you realize the
importance of the script yeah,like that's the same thing I
like I kind of realized withmine is I'm like, yeah, I need
to come up with a story.

Speaker 3 (29:25):
that's like I think permafrost is fun, it's I.
I look back at it and I'm likeit's's very character-driven the
story.
There isn't a whole lot of plotthere, other than like this guy
saves this girl.
That's like the plot.
But like now I look at my next,like I'm working on other

(29:45):
stories in my head as well aslike writing these little shorts
, and I'm like I want these tobe, you know, at a level that
you know it's just better.
The script needs to be there,though, for that to happen, and
like that's like where I think Ifailed, if I was to point it

(30:07):
out?

Speaker 1 (30:08):
Yeah, no, and I appreciate you saying that.

Speaker 3 (30:09):
Still, it's a really good film, but like I know that
that's like where I failed inturn, like I didn't fail, I
think it could have been better.
That's the better way to put it.
Like that's where I could havemade this film better is had I,
like, done a lot more work withthat script and made it like
that much better there.

Speaker 1 (30:28):
And that's, I think, how first features do Like you
can't skip it, you couldn't havelike just known that stuff you
know, everyone's told me thattoo.

Speaker 3 (30:38):
They tell me the script is king.
You know, you hear all thesethings about the script, the
script, the script, and I makemy feature film and then I'm
like man the script yeah, right,like everyone was telling me
that, but like I didn't get itin my head, like until I did it
myself and learned, like youknow, put it all together.

Speaker 1 (30:56):
So I guess, what about the script?
You know, that's also what youlearn.
You kind of go oh, these arethe things that I could do,
strengthen this and, and youknow, whatever, once you've done
it, all the principles landdifferent when you hear them,
you know, and you start to learnthose principles so much faster
because you have some contextin your life to to give it some

(31:18):
meaning.
And so like, yeah, my producingclasses in college, I was like
man, this just sounds likeoverkill.
And then when I started makingstuff, I was like oh, over and
over again, plans do fallthrough.
Now I know why we do thatpaperwork and why we write those
things and why we hire thatperson and, like all this stuff
started to make sense where Iwas like before it was like I

(31:38):
don't know.
But then I've also been able tosee like, well then, here's how
you can save money, here's howyou can break some rules.
But like.
Sometimes it's not necessary toget done and why and what is it?
Yeah, so I want to talk.
Let's pivot into um.
So when did you release thefilm and how did you approach
releasing it?
Because you have this movie,it's done now.
Did you have like a plan on theforefront where you were like I

(31:59):
know how I'm going to releasethis, or did you kind of finish
the movie and say, okay, now Ineed to figure out what to do
with this thing?

Speaker 3 (32:05):
Um, I think before I finished it I was.
I was trying to figure out thebest um plan for distribution,
trying to get it out there.
Um, I knew I know how to get itonto amazon.
I'm pretty sure, like mostpeople who get to that point of
making their feature film, theyknow how to get it onto amazon
with, uh, amazon direct.

(32:26):
Um, not necessarily the bestway to do it, but like everyone
can do that, it's, it's.
It's there.
You know, it's just a processand making sure you upload the
right stuff and right sizes ofposters or whatever.
But, um, I, I think I had hearda film hub from a friend and I
had told a friend about it whohad already done some feature

(32:48):
films.
He had put his on there and hehad an a good experience with it
and he, he was like, hey, thisis actually not that, but like
this is pretty good.
So I heard from him and so Iwas kind of like, ok, this is my
backup plan, this is where I'mgoing with this if I can't find
any other place to put it outthere and get distribution.

(33:10):
So I think I had talked to afew distributors, but I, I, I
just didn't get the rightresponse with them.
I don't know what the reasonwas.
Um, anyhow it came down to okay,film up is the way I want to do
it.
Like I said that my friend hadgiven me a lot of good advice

(33:31):
and I felt like I wasn't goingto get like cheated out of money
or any of that.
Because you hear all thesestories about like going with a
distributor and then, like theydon't, they end up making you
pay for stuff that you knowinstead of getting any money for
your film, so they're the onesthat make money off of it.
And so I was like, okay, well,let's do this.
And uh, we did it.

(33:52):
Um, any any other questionsabout that?
Before I start going into filmhub and stuff, I guess uh, I
don't think so.

Speaker 1 (34:00):
I think yeah.
I'm just curious to know, like,um, maybe for those who don't
know, like, what is film hub andhow do you manage?
How did you manage your film?

Speaker 3 (34:10):
and basically, what was, yeah, so they're like an
aggregate uh is what they callit.
I think an aggregator.
An aggregator, yeah, and Ithink they're, but they're
different.
They're also like a distributor.
So it's like a distributorslash aggregator, because they
kind of have a sales team thatpitches your film to various

(34:31):
platforms.
They get new platforms on thereas well that want to start up a
streaming service, and a lot oftimes you get licensed
immediately by those um and so Ithink there's like just pop
this up real quick.
So like right now we have 17different um channels is what

(34:53):
they're called for distributionwhere actually 16 where
permafrost is at and some ofthem are just I don't know some
random one, random one here andthere, like called autumn titus
popped up on the 28th, that I golook it up and I'm like I have
no idea, I've never heard ofthis.
So, so, some of them are likethat.

(35:14):
But then then there's like Imean you could you get on
YouTube movies and TV free withads, which is like YouTube's
channel has 181 millionsubscribers, and so you get onto
a platform like that and, um,it's, it's eyes on your film.
You know, when you have thatmany subscribers, um, amazon is
honestly one of the coolest, Ithink, so far, like in terms of,

(35:35):
uh, earning some money back.
Okay, so, so, before I go, butfilm hub is like, yeah, it's
like an aggregator.
Uh, my experience with them hasbeen positive.
You kind of have you can't takea proactive approach with them,
though I feel like you're kindof you're one fish of many as

(35:57):
part of FilmHub.
So I know, when you put it outthere, you're like it's your
baby and you want to like putall this effort towards, you
know, getting it to everychannel possible and you want to
like tell the person who's incharge, like your manager to, to
, to send it to all the people.
What, why is it not on here?
Why is it not on here and like,um, I think with film hub, you

(36:19):
kind of just have to put itthere and you have to trust in
the process, and if you have aproduct that is good, uh, it
should float on its own.
That's not to say that you'renot going to put any effort.
The effort you're going to haveto put in is more like marketing
, which is nothing that has todo with film hub, and we can

(36:39):
talk about marketing after filmhub, though, but yeah, yeah yeah
, so film hub, like I, I thinkthey're cool and there's not
like there's not a whole lot ofgreat places to go, like there's
uh indie I think it's indierights, is it, or indie
something yeah, indie film.

Speaker 2 (36:54):
Yeah, indie Film Rights.

Speaker 3 (36:55):
Indie Film.
There's another one that'ssupposedly decent in terms of
you're actually going to makesome money off your film, I
think I don't know too.
I haven't got anything on there, so I won't say anything.
But FilmHub.
You have a performance.
Basically, there's differentschedules for each platform

(37:16):
you're on, and so you end upgetting earnings back, um,
sometimes weekly or sometimesevery 30 days, and so you see
the earnings, but then, like,you don't get paid out until
sometimes 90 days, and so, yeah,it's pretty visible.
Um, I think, uh, in terms ofvisibility, like seeing how much

(37:39):
your film is making is reallyit's really hard, honestly,
depending on some platforms,because, like Tubi, they're
really consistent.
Every week you see your numbercome back, Boom, boom, boom,
like, oh, I made 400 bucks thisweek, oh, I made 200 bucks this
week.
I made 200 bucks this week, youknow, they're always there
every week, amazon, for somereason.

(38:01):
Um, and I'm like going intodetails on this already,
hopefully, everyone knows it'sgreat, this is really good okay
so amazon, like sometimes you'llgo three weeks with no, no
report, even though they're,they're expected, their
expectations is to have oneevery week.
And so how do you market yourfilm when you don't get a number

(38:24):
to back up the market spending?
And that's like one of thehardest things that I I've been
trying to, like my.
I think that's where I made themistake with Permafrost.
I put it out there.
It was doing super well, it wasmaking $1,300 a week, which to

(38:45):
some people is like, oh, it'sreally good, especially with the
amount we were spending.
We still haven't made back ourmoney for the film.
We're still red.
And that's because, like, atsome point Amazon I don't know
if it's the algorithm or what itis or if, like, there's a reset
that happens every single monthor something, but like it's

(39:10):
like it was doing really greatand then all of a sudden, boom,
you drop and you're like whoa,why did it drop so much?
Or you don't get a report backfrom Amazon.
So you kind of pull back onmarketing because you're like,
oh, this didn't do so well andI'm spending this much or that
much.
So Amazon can be finicky, butlike, I think consistently, like

(39:30):
I'm spending five bucks a daymarketing on Amazon, which is
like 35 bucks a week.
So, but I still won't sometimesget to see um a number which
can be frustrating becauseyou're like, is it working?
Especially with your first one,like, is this helping it?
And there's other platformslike apple.
I put I don't know 200something bucks into it and it

(39:53):
didn't do anything to it.
So, like the algorithm there isjust I don't know 200 something
bucks into it and it didn't doanything to it.
So, like the algorithm there isjust I don't know if, like, it
doesn't get help from uh, orjust people don't want to buy
Apple who are on Facebook, causeall you do Facebook.
See this gets crazy Like.
I don't want to lose everyone,but, like, there's Facebook ads,

(40:13):
uh, there's Google ads, there'sAmazon ads, which's google ads.
There's amazon ads, which arelike on their own app and, um, I
tried all three of those and Ithink amazon, uh, the amazon,
like app ads can help, butthey're really expensive and and

(40:34):
the reason they can help isbecause, in a way is like when
someone's on the app and it hasa banner that has your film, it
gives you credibility in a waythat, like people are like oh,
what's that?
You know?
So that way, if the thumbnailpops up or is suggested to them,
they saw that big ad and Ithink, in a way, it gave it
credibility, so that they'relike Oh's, check that out.

(40:55):
So you get a, you're, you'regonna get an easier click from
it, I think.
But again, this is just mebasing it off of, like I don't
have like solid evidence to sayit does help, but it like the
cheapest you can spend on Amazonads is like 100 bucks, bucks, I
think, a week or a hundred,something like that a week, and

(41:17):
that gets expensive, especiallyfor an indie filmmaker, you know
.

Speaker 2 (41:20):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (41:21):
But I know Facebook ads.
I'm pretty sure that's like oneof the solidest places you can
spend money.
The results with Amazon andFacebook for me have been good.
I'm still waiting on numbersfor this whole month because I
started like playing with a.
I was throwing a hundred buckson Saturdays at it to see what
would happen and I was seeinglike pretty good changes in my

(41:44):
numbers and then, like Amazonreports stopped coming in and I
was like what do I do?
And the last time that happenedI kind of stopped spending on it
and then the thing just sort offizzled out.
So I'm still spending fivebucks a day and doing the
hundred bucks on Saturdays inhopes that the next number that
comes in is, you know, apositive, like a really good

(42:04):
number, because I've beenconsistent with it.
But again it's it's it's justkind of like, I don't know,
marketing is expensive but it'snecessary and it's kind of what
gets your film in front of eyes.
Yeah, if you didn't do it, thenyou're just kind of letting your
all that time and money andeverything you spent, like if

(42:27):
you want people to see yourstory, it's like sometimes you
pay for it rather than them yeahyeah, but the hope is that
it'll, you know, do well, thatsomeone will see it and then
another person will see it,another like hopefully it'll
snowball a little bit so youdon't have to so about how much

(42:49):
were you putting into ad spendin the beginning, when you were
making 1300 a week?

Speaker 2 (42:54):
were you.

Speaker 3 (42:56):
I want to say I spent two.
I can literally pull up adshere and look at that.
I don't mind discussing thisstuff.
A lot of people I feel like alot of people are kind of
hush-hush on all the.

Speaker 1 (43:11):
Especially when you're still in the deal-making
process.
You're pretty tight-lipped, butit's interesting because you're
like I'm just putting, you'repretty tight lipped, but it's
interesting because you're like,I'm just putting it out there
you're doing it yourself andhopefully some listeners check
out yeah, that's true.

Speaker 3 (43:22):
Like yeah, if you were involved with a lot more
money, you probably couldn't goand discuss the numbers as
easily, but I feel like, as a,it helps everyone else who's
doing this to get a little bitof insight yeah, I appreciate it
.

Speaker 2 (43:35):
Yeah, so I spent how much?

Speaker 3 (43:35):
else who's doing this to get a little bit of insight.
Yeah, I appreciate it.
Yeah, yeah, um, so I spent howmuch is this?
I think I tested a few.
So you have to target audiencesand stuff through facebook.
If you've ever done a facebookad, um, and so you kind of need
to do some research and figureout what audiences you want to
target, like so, for perafrostit's post-apocalyptic.
I was like Walking Dead Last ofUs.

(43:58):
I kind of targeted a prepperaudience because I think
preppers are probably the mostlikely to enjoy the
post-apocalyptic genre.
So I targeted those and Itested around a little bit with
them.
I want to say it was like closeto so.

(44:21):
On the us, I was spending.
Like in the first month I spent271 bucks, which was about 7
300 clicks.
Uh, four cents a click, and aclick is basically.
They clicked your ad which wasa link to amazon's page with
permafrost.

Speaker 2 (44:40):
Okay, so just direct sale and the trailer.

Speaker 1 (44:44):
That Amazon's page?
Did you have like a TVOD thatphased into AVOD and then phased
into streaming, or what wasthat like?
Or was it like streaming, or?

Speaker 3 (44:56):
So right now it's only transaction for Amazon, so
this is purely Amazon that I'mdiscussing with you.
Yes, yeah uh, I did do a 2bcampaign for a little bit too.
Um, I I don't think I did thatone correctly, but I also think
2b is harder to influence withads and also 2b is just like
they were purchased, I think, byfox or something.

(45:18):
Oh, really, go on to 2b.
Now they've got like the newbatman, they've got aquaman
they've got big films on therewhich is, in a way, going to
take away from all the indiefilmmakers that they had a
platform that was um, heavilywatching all their films.
Now, all of a sudden, likethese, hollywood films are being

(45:38):
shoved in front of everyone, so, like the, the indie filmmaker
kind of is getting a back seatin a way on that platform.
It used to be different.
I think you'd still make somedecent money there.
It's one of the better moneymakers is to be Amazon and
supposedly, youtube.
The YouTube movies and TV isalso a good platform for making

(46:03):
some money.
Yeah, there's 181 millionsubscribers on it.

Speaker 1 (46:08):
And then you said the YouTube was a VOD that was free
with ads.
Yeah, so two.
That's how they're generated.

Speaker 3 (46:14):
Right, amazon's the TVOD and it's, I think there's a
possibility of getting ontoprime through through a film hub
.
They used to have it.
There was the possibility ofgetting onto prime through uh
through uh film hub.
They used to have it.
There was the possibility ofgetting on freebie, but it seems
like freebies kind of uhphasing out because uh, amazon
started showing ads on prime andfreebie was basically advod and

(46:36):
they're like why do we need twoadvods now?
So I think they're phasing outfreebie, supposedly.

Speaker 1 (46:42):
I just noticed that I started watching an amazon
original and it showed me an adat the beginning.
Yeah, I was like watching withmy son and I was like why are
there ads?
And I was looking and I waslike it didn't even say free
with ads, it just said free withprime.
Yeah, and I was like, wait, sonow I'm paying my prime
membership to have an ad infront of.
So you, you're right.
Just recently I feel likethey're starting to put ads.

(47:03):
They started putting ads.

Speaker 3 (47:05):
They can pay a little extra to remove those ads on
prime.
But I think they're justrealizing why do we need this
other you know freebie that theypurchased?
I'm pretty sure they bought itthinking like, oh, let's get on
the ad bodude.
Um, you know platform as well.
And then and they're like whydon't we just put it on prime?

Speaker 1 (47:26):
right, well, but free .
It was like a lot of ads, Imean it would you use?
Always a lot of ads sometimesyou'd have like two whole
minutes of ads, whereas this onewas like 30 seconds at the
beginning of the movie for likea different movie, and then it
was pretty much ad free from.
I haven't finished the movieyet so I'll see if they're jump,
if ads jump back in.
But but, like my son and Iwatched a great escape, long

(47:47):
movie, right like three hours,and it took us forever because
there was an ad for 10 minutesand it was like two more minutes
and I'm like you just addedlike 20 of the watch, the length
you know, to that movie and sowe I felt like I was watching
you know like tv again with myfamily growing up in the early
2000s where, like you'dliterally mute the commercials

(48:08):
and just hang out talk, whichactually made for like a
nostalgic viewing experience youknow you're talking to right
like we're watching this worldwar ii movie and we have to mute
the commercials and like, Idon't know, there's something
about burger king now and yeah

Speaker 3 (48:19):
muted it's kind of you have a reason to get up and
go use the bathroom or go getsome popcorn or something.

Speaker 1 (48:26):
Yeah, yeah, but you win an ad but you lose that like
yeah, like, uh, literally, uh.

Speaker 3 (48:33):
So I released that uh short film and on youtube you
can choose where you want yourads and I I was like there was
an ad right in the middle and Iwas like I don't want that there
, cause like it breaks up thatthe whole uh like fill and
everything you bring them tolike buy into.
If you throw an ad right in themiddle, you're going to cause

(48:55):
like a uh I don't know like acut in that, like yeah.
Like they lose that and all of asudden they're coming back and
then like if it's a superemotional scene or something, if
the ad pops in there, you'rejust like people are going to be
totally really knocked off withlike yep, knocked off kilter.
When they go from like oh, it'slike super emotional, and then

(49:15):
all of a sudden, oh, buy this,the whatever pharmaceutical
product or whatever and theycome back in and it's like oh
someone crying.
Like okay.
I don't think they're going tobe in the emotional mood for
this now after that ad.
So I just was like out at thebeginning and end Boom, like

(49:36):
yeah, the ads.
In a way I think they do that.
They kind of ruin your film alittle bit.

Speaker 1 (49:42):
It's interesting.

Speaker 2 (49:43):
So I know a lot of people are worried about when
they're releasing their film andit comes out on Avod, or how do
you say it?

Speaker 1 (49:51):
AVOD or Avod.

Speaker 2 (49:52):
AVOD or Avod.

Speaker 1 (49:53):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (49:54):
And it's still transactional in some places.
Did you feel like that, thatless people were buying it
because it was available?

Speaker 3 (50:02):
No, a lot of people have that thought and, uh, the?
So there's a lot of.
There's actually some Facebookgroups I don't know if you guys
are part of them.
There's like distribution onesand stuff like that, where they
talk about the stuff, Cause somepeople are like, oh, I don't
want my film on YouTube, Likethen then it's just going to
take away from all these otherplatforms, and most people

(50:25):
believe is that each platform isalmost like its own ecosystem.
So people who are on Amazonbuying their films and watching
their films there, they will buyand watch their films there
even if it's on YouTube, Becausethey're not like.
I mean, some people may go andGoogle it and look up the film
and be like, oh, can I watch itfor free?

(50:45):
Which that's fine.
And then there's also people whodon't want to watch ads, which
those people exist and theydon't want to have to like to
see any kind of like ads, and Ikind of prefer it that way too.
And then they'll buy it onamazon because they don't want
to have to experience that.
Um, amazon is also like atleast hd.

(51:07):
All right, yeah, the leastamount I think is hd on amazon
don't quote me on that.
So, like you usually get it,you can get like 1080 quality or
4k or whatever.

Speaker 1 (51:17):
But like um 2b is 720 , so your quality degrades a
little bit being on an ad vaudebecause they're just not looking
to well, and I know I'm I'm arare person, but I literally
like if I really want to see amovie, I will go see in theaters
and if I really passionatelylove that movie, I will buy it
on blu-ray.
And everyone says discs aredead.

Speaker 3 (51:37):
Maybe they are for all economic and like intense,
you know yeah well, I I stillbuy them and nolan is still
pushing yeah phase, you know soyeah, discs, like I feel like,
um, there's probably become aresurgence in people wanting to
buy discs because on streamingplatforms, people pull them down
and they put up a new one.
Quite often too.

(51:58):
I think you're still that, youstill have it in your purchases,
but I don't know at some point,like, what if they just decide,
oh, we can take it downwhenever we want, even if you
bought it?
Then it's like now my discs aregold because, like, you can't
take my disc away from me.

Speaker 1 (52:12):
Well, and we?
We lost the sound of music forlike a few months.

Speaker 2 (52:15):
It was gone buy it and it wasn't streaming it
wasn't streaming on disney plusanymore.

Speaker 1 (52:21):
you couldn't buy it on it.
You couldn't even buy a disc onAmazon.
Hardly we had to find a usedcopy.
Was it used?

Speaker 2 (52:28):
Yeah, they were only selling you.
Sometimes they're new, but theywere like yeah, basically like
sold yeah.

Speaker 1 (52:34):
But it was in the plastic.
Still, we found a copy onAmazon somewhere and we had it,
but it was like not through aretailer, it was through like
some random thing.
And we got our hands on thatbecause we were like, oh my gosh
what's happening?

Speaker 3 (52:46):
silencing their sensory sound of music out of
the culture, removed.
It's weird like, uh, I had thesame experience with a movie
called the grand canyon withdanny glover in it.
I remember, when I was younger,like I really liked that movie.
It was cool, like it had likesome really cool moments in it
and I couldn't find it onstreaming and I was like what
the heck?
So I had to like find it onAmazon, purchase the DVD, you

(53:08):
know, and so like yeah, some ofthe stuff isn't available and
what the reason is.

Speaker 1 (53:13):
maybe they just don't want to distribute it, or Well
and like, and so they startedediting movies on Criterion,
which is like antithetical tothe whole idea of what Criterion
does, which is preserves moviesthe exact way they were, and so
now people are like buyingthose discs too, because they're
like you can't edit the Frenchconnection, but they're editing

(53:34):
scenes out of the Frenchconnection when you stream on
Criterion.
And so there are disc lovers andI am I'm still one of them.
The only way you can can getthe Atmos mix of the Creator,
which is a brand new movie, isto get the 4K Blu-ray.
So we bought the 4K Blu-ray sothat we could get the Atmos mix,
because you can't get itanywhere else, like streaming or

(53:54):
otherwise.

Speaker 3 (53:55):
That's the other thing with streaming.
How do you get the versionsthat are for surround and like
these different theater systemswhen it's like a streaming?
I?

Speaker 1 (54:06):
mean amazon will tell you for like a very limited,
usually amazon originals.
They'll say, like this is anhdr atmos like super great,
right, and it'll look prettygood if you have good internet.
But like, I've always justfeared that, like, like.
But what if I want, like thebest version of this movie from

(54:27):
the 50s, like, yeah, amazon'snot going to take care of that,
so I'm gonna buy, like thecriterion version, because they
remastered it in 4k or whateverand you've got, like the 70s the
black stallion that thedirector helped criteria
remaster and put it on blu-rayand so anyway, that was a huge
tank and I apologize.

Speaker 3 (54:46):
Yeah, no, you're fine .
Uh, where were we at?

Speaker 2 (54:49):
so I just wanted to ask a few more questions about
your experience.
Do you feel like because I knowyou said you were considering
doing amazon direct and then youdecided to go with filmhub um?

Speaker 3 (54:58):
I feel like it's worth it.
Direct was available, but I Iwas already in my.
I was thinking I'm gonnadefinitely go film hub.
I wasn't sure, I guess foramazon, if I was doing director
or film hub for it, because I'dheard two things.

Speaker 2 (55:11):
But yeah, I kind of decided let's do film hub so
film hub has been worth it toyou, even though they take a a
cut yeah, they take a cut.

Speaker 3 (55:20):
I think it's.
What is it?
20 or something is it 20 or 30?
I forget.
I think it's 20 okay yeah,amazon's still taking 50 from
there so I was gonna say theplatform probably takes it do
you see, that on your numberstoo, you can see you don't get
to see that the visibilitythat's the biggest thing I'd
complain about is visibility onlike your numbers.

(55:41):
It just you don't get that fromstreaming platforms.
They don't give it to you.
It's not film hubs fault, it'slike I said, amazon sometimes
doesn't report for a month ortwo and you're just like like
the movie's out there, but howdo I, how do I know if it's like
performing?

Speaker 1 (55:56):
do you have any way of knowing how many people
approximately have seenpermafrost like?
Do you know like, oh, at least10 000, or maybe a million or 12
, you know?

Speaker 3 (56:07):
there is like I mean you could take your number and
like calculate dollars, becauselike it's, I think it's the
rental.

Speaker 1 (56:14):
Well, I mean, even that doesn't even work.
Avod, is there any way ofknowing like they don't give?

Speaker 3 (56:20):
you those either?
Yeah, tubi did not give me anynumbers on that and like, and
the amount that you get per viewis really hard to figure out as
well, because, like, how muchis that ad worth versus this ad?
Like, clients are payingdifferent amounts, I think, for
some ads, and so so are yourunning separate ads for each
platform, like some adstargeting?

(56:41):
because, like I did, I did atthe point that I'm at right now.
Um, my 2b is like reallythrottled down and I think it's
partially due to the fact that2b is kind of converting to more
of a hollywood you know placeto watch hollywood films.
It used to be like mostly indiefilms, it was just every film

(57:02):
got on there.
But like where that's at now?
Like I think it was like 20bucks the last thing I made for
the last week and so I kind ofwas like well, it's not even
worth running much of an ad forit.
So I've kind of just removed myads for that.
I was trying to see if I couldget some Plex ads running, but
that didn't really do anythingthis last week.

(57:25):
I'm just I test things here andthere.
Most, most, like I said, is theAmazon.
That's like the most successI've had with ads week that

(57:47):
their film gets onto Amazon.

Speaker 2 (57:48):
I would say like spend any word anywhere from 500
to a thousand uh, on your ad iswhat I'd say.
Um, just because when it's anew release it's kind of it's
new release.

Speaker 3 (57:55):
Uh, I think the algorithm gives it preference,
um, and then you're giving itpeople who, if you, if you're
targeting the right audience andyou have a good thumbnail and
like, and those people onfacebook are the real audience
like.
That's why it's important youchoose like.
Okay, so, walking dead people,they like post-apocalyptic like.
You feed those people over toamazon and they go and watch it

(58:17):
and if they have an amazonaccount, they it knows what
they've watched previously,right?
So so if they watch a lot oflike you know, post-apocalyptic
stuff, then it's going to gookay, this is, this is similar
to what this film needs, and sothat way I'll grow.
The algorithm knows how toshare it.
But, yeah, you have to feed itthose people and that's what the
ads are going to do, so thealgorithm can do something other

(58:41):
than just go.
I wonder if this person wantsto watch this and if all those
like don't get likes or ratingsor whatever, then decide that's
not the right audience.
Well, if I go and give it athousand people who are both
watching the walking dead orsomething and like let's say,

(59:02):
700 like it the algorithm isgoing to know okay, this is
probably the audience for it.
So then I don't have to put asmuch money towards it.
So that first week I I haven'ttested this, so like technically
my advice may be wrong, but Ispent 271, 71 bucks and it
worked pretty well.
Just off of that, um, and I hada friend he he's, he didn't uh

(59:27):
he had two films he released andthey were.
They went to Amazon but hedidn't do any spending on them
and they didn't really performall that well.
So if you just put it out thereand don't spend a lot of money
on it, you're probably not goingto get much.
But if you're going to like, ifyou want to uh, in a way it
feels like a gamble, but I meanlike you put a lot of time to

(59:48):
make the film like, you might aswell do that like see if it
applies, you know if peopledon't know it exists, like the
chances of them seeing it arevery low.

Speaker 2 (59:58):
So by marketing you give them that choice so that's
that.

Speaker 3 (01:00:02):
That's where my number comes from, the 500 to a
thousand that if I did anotherfilm I'd probably spend a
thousand just on the first weekof marketing because, I know
that amazon's going to dosomething with that and yeah,
given you do that through amazonads or through facebook ads,
sending them to the amazon.
I I personally think I'd putthe amazon ads to the least

(01:00:22):
amount possible, because you getto choose a bid amount and
that's where the cost comes from.
If you're a higher bid, youstart showing up more on the
banners.
But if you do a low bid, thenyou show up once in a while, but
at least it will give a littlebit of, like you know, like I
said, some clout.

Speaker 2 (01:00:40):
For the right people, yeah yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:00:42):
So I think, if you, if that first month running the
amazon ad is probably reallybeneficial, but after that it
might slow down because, I don'tknow, people maybe have seen it
enough, or or something to thateffect but yeah, I guess I'm
just wondering too, like as timehas passed, have you seen that
like gradually, the amountcoming in is going down?

Speaker 2 (01:01:02):
is the amount you're spending on ads going down?
Do you feel like it's going tomake its money back in the end?
How long do you think that'lltake if it does?

Speaker 1 (01:01:13):
That's seven questions.

Speaker 2 (01:01:14):
I know, I know, I know you're asking.

Speaker 3 (01:01:18):
It's basically like are you going to make your money
back?

Speaker 2 (01:01:20):
Are you hopeful?
Yeah, what do you think?

Speaker 3 (01:01:22):
Well, at the moment, my Amazon reporting is broken.
Right, that's hard I'd love tohave visibility into all this,
like YouTube has.
If you have a YouTube account,you can see everything, like all
these details.
I would love if Amazon had thatas well, but I don't think
they'd ever give that to us,just because maybe they don't

(01:01:44):
want us to be able to see thatmuch detail, especially if, like
, let's say, the reporting's offor something and they have to
like recalculate.
They don't want to be like ohyeah, you made ten thousand
dollars.
Oh, never mind, it's only fivethousand.
You know that would causelawsuits or something you know
from people who are like I sawmy report, so I was making a lot
.
So I don't think they'd evergive us that visibility, um, but

(01:02:07):
I'd love it if we did have it,because then you could advertise
appropriately like oh, thefilm's taken off right now and I
spent this much, okay, let'stry and spend more, it's taken
off even more.
Like you'd have numbers to backup everything you spend on
marketing.
But at the moment, um, I'm kindof just being consistent and,
like I said, I'm spending about100 bucks on saturday and then

(01:02:29):
during the week, I spend fivebucks, um daily and that's on
facebook ads facebook ads yeah,and it's the same ad, so it kind
of builds up itself as well,because people will like it,
they'll share it, and so thosewill show up.
So, like you got 500, 600 likes,other people see it.
They go oh, what's this, youknow?

(01:02:50):
Rather than if it's got onelike or something, then they're
like eh, scroll past.
I also think Saturdays arebetter, just because, if you're
advertising during the week,people are at work, they might
be scrolling Facebook and sothey see your ad, but are they
going to go watch your movie?
They're probably going to,maybe click it, you know what's
this and then they'll probablygo back.

(01:03:10):
But on Saturdays it's likepeople are free, they, you know,
they're probably looking towatch a movie.
It's like, oh, what's this?

Speaker 2 (01:03:17):
Okay, let's go watch it, you know that's smart to
boost it when people arewatching movies more.

Speaker 3 (01:03:22):
Yeah, so I've slowly been just learning these little
things and trying differentthings.
That's, I think, the marketingjourney, or whatever.
It's like test things, butyou're testing with money which
is not fun to test with becauseyou might be like just throwing
money into thin air and itdisappears.

Speaker 1 (01:03:41):
But it's education, no matter what.

Speaker 3 (01:03:43):
Oh yeah, it's education, yeah, especially with
the first film.

Speaker 1 (01:03:45):
Like you're learning this business and gaining
valuable experience.

Speaker 2 (01:03:49):
So I love that about your approach, that you're kind
of like, let's try this, let'stry these ads.

Speaker 1 (01:03:53):
Let's just figure out what works, and then on your
next one, you'll know a littlebetter how to go into it and
that's the value of making aliving while you're doing this
is that you're not like, yeah,that's where the job is, or I
could buy this ad.

Speaker 3 (01:04:06):
You know that's the other thing if you have a job
and you're producing a film,it's like, oh, now I have an
income to throw at marketing onon this film.
If you're an indie filmmaker,you know.
So it's like you cancontinuously advertise your film
and try and put it out there sothat hopefully it takes off.

Speaker 1 (01:04:25):
But so I want to wrap this up because I think we need
to wrap up, but really quickmaybe.
Maybe two things that you woulddo differently.
I know we've talked a lot abouteverything you've learned, but
two things that pop up in yourmind that you do differently,
and then after that, your threefavorite movies right now.

Speaker 3 (01:04:46):
So first the things you do differently and then
after that, your three favoritemovies right now.
So first the things you'd dodifferently and then your three.
Okay, so first of all, script.
I think that's like one thing Itotally do better if I was to
do another one, which I am goingto do, another one, um.
And then marketing would be theother thing.
I feel like I know how to shoota film and I know how to create

(01:05:06):
a filling and convey that tothe audience really well.
If I was to redo or do anotherfilm, I'd work on the script and
get that to be at a place thatI know this is going to have an
overall.
I don't know it has meaningbehind it and all this like
better plot and all that stuff.
I try and get a perfect scriptthat, like I know, is going to

(01:05:30):
do well.
And then, uh, marketing wise,I'd market better.
That first month honestly, likethat's the way.
That's my biggest regret is notmarketing enough, even though
when I was like doing this, I'mlike I'm gonna do this right.
Like I had that attitude likeI'm gonna spend a bunch of money
and this and that, but likeeven after I did that, I feel
like I didn't spend enough.

(01:05:51):
So that's why I'm like 500 to athousand, like first week,
because I feel like that wouldbe a solid guess as to if it
would help or not interesting.

Speaker 1 (01:06:02):
Yeah, all right, so top three favorite movies right
now right now no it alwayschanges probably yeah, it does
always change.

Speaker 3 (01:06:11):
Um.
I really enjoyed um.
I don't know if you guys seenthat film, uh, prospect no uh,
pedro pascal's in it.
No, it was kind of this indiefilm.
Uh, give it a watch.
That's one of my favorites.
It's a sci-fi.
Um, it's done really well.
I just I loved how thedirectors there's two directors

(01:06:31):
for it um, they're both friendsand I loved how they like for
their approach for thespaceships and stuff was a lot
of analog controls.
It wasn't digital, you know.
It was like you see all thesenew sci-fis and everything's
like a either like some pop-upscreen, you know, or this or
that like super futuristic.
Theirs were like analog littleclick, click, click and like I
don't know.

(01:06:52):
They did a lot of work withthat and a lot of their stuff
was done in camera, like I thinkthey had.
I think one of them are.
Some of their people havemechanical engineering degrees,
so they'd like make a lot oftheir stuff.
Oh, but that's one of myfavorites Prospect.
I don't know.
Heat's really cool.

Speaker 1 (01:07:13):
It's on criterion right now.
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:07:16):
I guess he too's in pre-production or something.

Speaker 1 (01:07:19):
I also heard that.

Speaker 3 (01:07:20):
Yeah, yeah, I saw, I saw that on IMdb.
I was like, oh cool, um, Ireally like post-apocalyptic
stuff, so like, ah, fury roadwas really cool.
Um, I watched furiosa as well.
I really enjoyed furiosa, but Ifeel like fury road was I like
that better.

Speaker 1 (01:07:39):
I think everyone's like saying that I feel like
everyone's saying Furiosa wasreally great, but like Fury Road
is like the gold standard, it'smaybe, it's, maybe his best.

Speaker 3 (01:07:49):
Yeah, yeah, that Fury Road was just like wow.
I think that one's better.
For me, furiosa is more like a.
It's got like a story to it ina way Like it.
Just Furiosa or Fury Road islike this three-hour event of
cars exploding and stuff, whichis very entertaining too, but it

(01:08:12):
doesn't have like the same kindof storytelling that Furiosa
has.
But I preferred Fury Road.

Speaker 1 (01:08:18):
I don't know.
I get it though the time framecreated with this three days and
two nights thing.
I think probably added a lot ofvelocity to that movie.
That yeah, the odyssey offuriosa was totally different.

Speaker 3 (01:08:31):
Approach you know, I really like the beginning of
furiosa.
I don't know if you guys haveseen it.

Speaker 1 (01:08:35):
I mean, I have not seen either of them oh, you
haven't seen either oh man.

Speaker 3 (01:08:41):
I just loved how george miller told that story.
It made me want to see a filmabout her mother.
Because they made that like Ifelt like her.
Her character was such a strongcharacter, like a female
strongly like, like strong womangoing to save her daughter from
these biker dudes.
Like that, like I was like sowell, since I had made my film

(01:09:03):
about this guy saving this girl,I was like, dude, you could
totally make a movie about somemom saving her daughter and it
would like be it's.
It's one of those.
Uh, it's like mandalorian, youknow, he's saving the little.
Uh, yoda, yeah, and like um,what is it?

Speaker 2 (01:09:19):
lone wolf and pup basic well, and we love george
Miller, so we should see it.

Speaker 1 (01:09:23):
Yeah, I'm just kidding.
My favorite George Miller isprobably like Babe.
Babe Lorenzo's Oil is so goodit's such a beautiful film.

Speaker 2 (01:09:36):
Very different.
But yeah, I'll go and bringthat up to people.

Speaker 3 (01:09:38):
I'll be like, hey, you know that he did Happy Feet
and Happy Feet 2?
Yeah, those guys that out topeople.
I'll be like, hey, you knowthat he did happy feet and happy
feet too, yeah yeah, those guysthe honest trailers were like
from the director of babe pig inthe big city.

Speaker 1 (01:09:49):
And happy feet comes this year's hard, our event of
the summer, right respect anyway.
Well, thank you so much, lenny,for being on and for sharing.

Speaker 3 (01:10:03):
Sorry if I just rambled way too much.

Speaker 1 (01:10:05):
No, no, it's helpful because those are the things
that everyone acts like.
I made this piece of art andthe world accepted it and loved
it and it's like no, like I was.
People put a ton of effort anda ton of time and learning and
money to get this thing out intothe world.
That you don't know about amovie unless a team of people
brought it to you, you know.

Speaker 3 (01:10:25):
And permafrost had a team Like it wasn't just me.

Speaker 1 (01:10:28):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:10:29):
Like there was a whole crew.
I mean, if you look at the cast, there was like 39 people in
the cast.
I mean the crew there was.
We had like how many DPs,because you know they weren't
was.
We had like how many dpsbecause you know they weren't
always available.
Yeah, we had one that was likekind of the main one, yvonne,
and then, uh, there was otherbackup ones when she wasn't

(01:10:50):
available.
So we had like four, five maybedps throughout the whole thing,
which is kind of not normal.
Usually you got one person, butfor the most part the
cinematography I felt stayedconsistent along the whole thing
.
That's kind of more of my jobas a director, you know, is to
make sure that my vision'shappening here and that

(01:11:12):
everything's consistent.

Speaker 1 (01:11:15):
So I think I did my job and the DP did their job and
I kept them along what neededto be, and they had two DPs on
the creator and that wassomething that greg really did?
greg frazier dp'd likeeverything in pre-production,
where, like he, preppedeverything oh, that's right,
okay, yeah, so he, he pre andthen oran software was on set
kind of managing as dp and theyco-dp'd in the end and, like

(01:11:39):
frazier was a huge fan of it.
He was like I really hope thatmore studios recognize the value
of having multiple DPs andbeing able to like trust that
that can actually still producelike a consistent result Right,
which I thought was fascinating.
I still am curious about howexactly they executed that, but
I think what you did was similarto like what Chris Nolan did on
his first feature, which wasShoestring, and he said if they

(01:12:01):
were in town they were on theywere on that weekend.

Speaker 2 (01:12:04):
You know, we shot weekend.
We saved enough money to buy alot of our shoots for weekends.

Speaker 1 (01:12:08):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, we're huge fans of weekend
filmmaking.
We can.

Speaker 2 (01:12:13):
he financed it as he went, so it was just like most
people have jobs is the thingand that's the other thing, I
think what gets in the way, whenyou're like I'm gonna do this
full time, it's like oh, I'mworking I'm working.

Speaker 3 (01:12:31):
Okay, I guess we gotta shoot in the weekend.
So now it's like why are younot working?
Yeah, yeah, do the weekend,weekend, uh filmmaker yeah, you
know, well, it's awesome, well,awesome.
Thanks so much yeah, thanks forhaving me.