Film Folk Lore Presents: Yo, Adrian! Joe Mesi, Boxer

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Hello film friends, friends of film and everyone in between.

(00:18):
Welcome to our tenth and final episode of our summer mini series, Yo Adrian.
I am here with Justin Sound, Heather Rae Costume and Tony Camera.
Yo Tony!
All things must pass and here we are with our bookend.
It's time for a Yo Adrian wrap up.

(00:38):
I like that.
We don't have a song here.
Let's go back to one.
Let's do Spill Can't See.
Hello.
So insert that.
Take it back.
Take it back.
Take it back.
All right.
So first of all, how is everyone feeling now that we're at the end of this journey?

(01:00):
Let's start with you, Heather Rae.
I feel great.
I feel pumped.
I'm ready to watch them all again.
Maybe not all of them.
Seven of nine.
Yes, seven of nine.
What about you, Tony?
I feel I need to rewatch The Rockies again because I need to flush out Creed 3.

(01:20):
I need to watch all of The Rockies to get over Creed 3.
But otherwise I'm great.
I would sort of just to kind of go with that thinking, I would be okay watching in the
future Creed 1 and 2, skipping 3 and then jumping into The Rockies series because I
still like Creed 1 and 2, but I would rather be ending on a high note overall, which we'll

(01:41):
get into our rankings later.
A little teaser teaser.
Justin now for you, this is your first journey through this.
How are you feeling now that you have watched nine crazy movies of a boxing franchise?
Yeah, exhausted.
No, I'm a trainer.
It's a long time to be in the ring, babe.

(02:02):
We went the distance.
Yeah, no, I really appreciate y'all bringing me into this and showing me the Rockyverse.
I feel like a changed man.
Are you a better person?
I am a better person because of it.
As our friend Libra for Justice.

(02:22):
Libra for Justice.
Shout out Libra for Justice.
It has made me a better person.
We are also better people for this.
Justin, for people like you.
Libra for Justice.
It's so true.
Justin, do you have a favorite character from the whole franchise if you had to pick one
person?
Oh my gosh.
All right, I'm saying you can't pick Rocky.
I mean, we all know Rocky is great.

(02:43):
But if you had to pick a second favorite, it's still hard.
I have you two.
Yeah, yeah.
I'm thinking.
That's a great question.
Now that we've gone through all and I'm including the Creeds in this decision, I'm going to
go ahead and say Ivan Drago.
Ivan.
Ivan, not Victor.

(03:03):
Ivan.
Okay.
Wow.
His transformation through the Creeds was and let's stop at a Cree too, but it was
kind of that.
From Creed 4 to Creed, I'm sorry, from Rocky 4 to Creed 2, there's quite a development

(03:23):
in character for sure.
That's interesting.
I like that.
I like that answer.
Me too.
That's only because I can't count the robot.
Oh, you could have.
Anyway, I know, joking.
Heather, right?
That's so hard.
It's so hard.
I mean, I love me some Mickey.
I love me some Mickey.
I love me some Apollo.
I love me some Duke.
One.

(03:44):
You know, I know that's what I'm saying.
It's so hard.
It's so hard.
I mean, I think.
Disqualified.
Knock out.
She flipped the table, guys.
You got two points.
Ref says two points.
Two points for each character.
One point for each character over the legal limit of one.
Finally, Ref.
I know, right?
It only took you 10 recordings to get there.

(04:07):
It's so hard.
Come back to me.
All right.
Jed.
I would say Polly, to be honest.
I like fucking Polly.
Well, you start missing him when he's not there.
You do.
You hate him when he's around.
You miss him when he's gone.
He's the lovable oaf type, you know, stereotype.
But I really like Burt Young.

(04:28):
I like what he brought to that character.
There's so many layers to Polly's complications, his abuse and his trauma.
And by the time you get all the way to Rocky Balboa, you now have seen some growth in a
weird Polly way.

(04:49):
But he has grown.
It's like he's still certainly Polly, no mistaking that.
But he's also shown growth as a character.
And there's something I really like in his emotional arc, especially when they're revisiting
the places and he has that whole breakdown where he's like, these are good memories for
you.
They're not good memories for me.
Because of what I did.

(05:10):
It's not because of what...
And he's finally taking responsibility for his own shit for the first time.
There's something really beautiful about that.
It's very broken way.
It's kind of like appreciating...
What is it?
I can't remember if it's Japanese, Chinese specific, but it's like appreciating a broken
teacup kind of thing, a flawed cup.
And that's kind of what Polly is and that illusion.

(05:33):
But I just, I don't know.
He's always been, I've always been happy when he shows up, even if he's doing bad stuff.
So yeah, Polly.
Yeah, that's a good answer too.
I mean, yeah, I was going to say Polly, but...
Oh, I thought for sure you were Mr. T.
Oh, yeah.
I mean...
Mr. T, of course.
I thought that was a given.

(05:54):
Yeah, like I love Polly.
I do.
I love Polly too.
I have to, I do have to pick Mr. T. I know he's only in one movie, but he's got such
a presence and he's just so cool.
I don't know.
I just love him and nobody will ever top him for me.
I was going to ask you if you didn't pick Mr. T. I was going to say if they had put

(06:17):
him in other movies, even as a ringside commentator, would they have changed your answer?
But you still went with him.
Oh yeah.
What is it?
Because Clubber Lang is so, I mean, he's so specific to one specific installment.
What is it about him for you that brings something that the others don't?

(06:41):
I don't know.
For him, it's just his rawness.
I love how angry he is and nothing fazes him.
He still is the same person through the whole movie from the beginning to the end and he
doesn't learn anything.
I don't care.
I just love him.
He's just great.
Yeah.
And I'm also, y'all help me think of the answer to this is is Carl Weathers the only opponent

(07:07):
that's an actual actor in this franchise?
I'm thinking for a second, like Dolph Langer becomes one, of course, but-
Tell you Shire.
Oh, sorry.
I mean the opponents.
Oh, okay.
Every other opponent is either a real boxer or a person found off the streets, essentially.
I think Burgess Meredith was real.
Well, he's a trainer.
Yeah, but he's still-
But he was a boxer.

(07:27):
Yeah, he was a boxer.
Bert Young was a boxer.
But these aren't the opponents.
Where was Hulk Hogan in his career when he did-
He was very early in his career.
He actually got kicked out of the WWF for a while.
Yes, he took that part.
The popularity of that movie-
But then he came back with Mr. T.
That's what kicked off Hulkamania and everything.
So it was his return is where he started peeking.
But before that, he wasn't-

(07:49):
You could thank Rocky III for Hulkamania.
Just letting you wrestlers know out there.
Yeah, don't put that on him.
Did you pick yours?
I was hoping you'd forget and not come back to me.
Honestly, it's so hard because as individual characters or in the relationship that they

(08:09):
have with Rocky, it's such-
I mean, Paulie, obviously.
Come on.
Can't help but love Paulie.
He's such a catalyst for so many things, too.
Exactly.
But we discussed that, how in the creeds, they are missing a Paulie character that-
For better or for worse.
For better or for worse, exactly.
Shit.

(08:30):
Apollo's pretty cool.
I mean, I've got to say Mickey, though.
I just love Mickey.
I love the interactions between how they just build each other up, the two of them.
He set the bar, too, is for the trainers.
Exactly.
Because Rocky is always trying to get back to what Mick told me.

(08:55):
Yes.
So real quick, I'm going to use that to say that that's kind of answering the first part
of this thing.
But I want us to now talk about maybe actually going with what you said, Tony.
Who's the least favorite character that you could have done without-
The redhead.
The redhead.
The Tommy gun.

(09:16):
Oh, the Tommy Morrison girlfriend?
The arm candy?
I was like, what?
I mean, I did call Brigitte Nielsen's character a word that I probably shouldn't have, but
it is one of my favorites.
Take it back.
I don't take it back.
I'm not going that far.
See you next Tuesday.
Take it back.
It's take you back.
Yeah.
No, it's not.
Take it back.

(09:36):
No, no.
Isn't that-
They're both correct.
Are we going to fight?
I believe from different incarnations of the song, they have used both, I believe.
Yeah.
I'm going to say I heard you in one of the movies.
Okay.
In fact, I just want to say I heard it both ways.
I think the name of the song is take you back.
I mentioned that a while ago, but I don't know what you're saying.

(09:58):
For you, it's the arm candy in Rocky V.
I mean, that was a knee jerk reaction.
I love that answer though.
She was definitely not needed.
She didn't do anything for the story.
You have to skip me.
I have to think for a minute.
What about you?
Yeah, I don't know.
I think Big Yank Ball is my second least favorite.
Just kidding.

(10:19):
I'm the opposite.
I need to know more about Big Yank Ball.
I know you do.
I had to bring it back.
I mean, is that a birth given name?
I have so many questions.
I think everybody has something important to do.
I hate Tommy Gunn.
I hate him.
I hate his hair.
I hate everything about him.
His 90s mullet.
But without him, where would that movie be not made?

(10:41):
So maybe Tommy Gunn's my answer.
I'm glad we could be here to help you work it out.
Thanks.
We're here for you.
Maybe those kids in Little Marie's bar that one night.
Yeah, they didn't really do much for the story.
Maybe that.
They did mirror how Little Marie was that little girl when Rocky, when she said, screw

(11:04):
you creepo to Rocky.
The bullies.
Yeah.
The bullies that fight Robert.
That's all the bullies.
That's actually, you took my answer.
Now we're even.
I hated the bullies.
They're so unnecessary.
The bully in Creed 3 as well.
The girl that tore the paper.
For no reason.
I think that was necessary.
Oh yeah.
They wanted to do something to show that Amara's got the fight in her.
But I mean, you could have shown that.
It was basically the same as the first Creed, the first scene in the first Creed.
You did that at the end when she was in the ring.

(11:25):
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah, or when he's training her.
I agree with that.
I mean, it shows.
It's a lot of fun.
I mean, it's a lot of fun.
The bully thing in Rocky V, which I did say in the episode, but it's not just that I don't

(11:49):
like the whole plot line of that, the subplot of that, but I really hate that they become
friends and they're hanging out.
There's something about that.
You had mentioned that.
Yeah, that's such an after school special kind of way to go about something like that.
I promise you any fight I've ever been in my whole life, I can name one person I'm friends
with.
If you get in a physical fight with somebody and they're a literal bully, you don't beat

(12:11):
them and then go, now we can be friends.
The only physical fight I ever got in was with my best friend at the time in high school.
That's the only person I've ever actually had a physical altercation with.
And so I don't know.
It happens.
People do need a fight sometimes.
Yeah.
Sometimes, yeah.
So all the answers is no punch in the face.

(12:35):
Well, sometimes it is.
Well, I just realized that every single person we named that we could do without was from
Rocky V.
Or Creed III.
Or Creed III.
Yeah.
Well, there you go.
Yeah, a lot of unnecessary characters.
I think that speaks volumes.
It really does.
Yeah.
So, I'm going to go back to the book.
I think that speaks volumes.

(13:00):
Yeah.
So, moving us along, we have a special guest today.
And thanks to Heather Ray, we are going to hear his interview now.
So let's welcome retired boxer Joe Messi.
Welcome Joe.
Yo, Joe.
Ding, ding.
Hi, Joe.
Welcome for being here.
Oh, thank you, Jed.

(13:24):
Appreciate it.
It's great to be with you guys.
Now am I reading this right?
I'm looking at 36 and 0 with 29 KOs.
Is that right?
Yeah.
Can you believe that?
That's my professional record.
Yeah.
And what was the title that you held?
Well, as a professional, I held a few.
Obviously, I came up first at like 12, 13 and 0.

(13:48):
I won the New York State Heavyweight Championship, which is pretty recognizable.
Muhammad Ali and Joe Frazier and those guys had the toes got up.
So it was kind of really, really cool.
As at that time in my career, I thought like, wow, I got this.
My career is probably over after this.
This is a great accolade.
But then I kept going.
And then I won a WBC United States title.

(14:09):
Then I won a North American Boxing Federation title of All North America, which put me number
one in the world.
So I won a bunch.
I got a handful of belts in place that are kind of fun to keep in the office.
Yeah.
How did you get that nickname there?
Oh, man.
That is just a family nickname since I was a baby.

(14:31):
OK.
What is it?
Baby and baby jimmies.
You know when you hear it so much growing up?
I was a small kid, underdeveloped, not athletic, pinch the cheeks kind of kid.
I had an older brother who is more good at everything he did, prom king kind of, you
know, that guy.
Like I wasn't that guy.

(14:54):
I had friends because I had an older brother, but I was tough because I had to stick with
them.
You know, I was tough.
I just wasn't athletic, but I was always baby Joe.
And I remember when I was coming up as an amateur, like nationally, and I'm like, man,
I might turn pro and I turn pro.
And I'm like, man, I got to find a great nickname.
And my parents are like, you're baby Joe.

(15:16):
You're a tough one.
I'm like, no.
I'm like, no, no, no, no, no.
I never even thought of it.
It's not tough.
They're like, why would you have a name?
Like, that's what we call you.
I'm like, no, please.
And I guess it stuck pretty good, but no one was scared of me.
As a youngest in my family.
It's false sense of security you're giving it to.
How dare you.

(15:37):
I actually have your accolades here.
I'm just going to go over them real quick.
1993, Empire State Games gold medalist.
1993, New York State Golden Gloves champion in the super heavyweight division.
1995, New York State Golden Gloves champion, super heavyweight division.
96, New York State Golden Gloves champion, super heavyweight division.
1996, United States Olympic alternate, super heavyweight division.

(16:00):
2009, New York State heavyweight champion.
2003, North American boxing federation heavyweight champion.
2007, World Boxing Council, USNBC heavyweight champion.
2011, you got into the Buffalo Boxing Hall of Fame.
And in 2018, New York State Boxing Hall of Fame and Greater Buffalo Sports Hall of Fame.
That is awesome.

(16:21):
That's pretty impressive there, Joe.
It was a fun, great ride.
It really was.
It was a great ride.
The tragic part of my story, there isn't really a tragic part because it's a happy ending,
but I worked so hard most of my life.
I was never really confident in myself, but the team around me was.

(16:44):
And I kept taking the next step in the ladder, next step in the ladder.
And I get disagreement with ESPN.
I get disagreement with HBO.
I was on HBO five times.
The very last fight at Mandalay Bay in HBO, very tough fight, but I won.
I become the number one heavyweight contender in the world.
My next shot is for a world title.
Similar to Rocky.

(17:07):
All I wanted was a shot.
I'm not Mike Tyson.
Let's be realistic.
I'm not a star heavyweight.
I know I would never be Lennox Lewis.
I'm realistic.
I had a good following in Buffalo and I'm a tough fighter.
Okay.
That's it.
But I want a shot at the title.
Four guys that I fought out of the 36 and beat, knocked out, all got shot to the title.

(17:30):
I never got a shot.
And it was because of a head injury, which we can get into.
And I got a head injury that fight.
I won the fight, but I was banned from the sport.
And any way you look at it, the timing was bad.
And like, yeah, I made a little money, but like the big money was like my money, the
opportunity.

(17:50):
I probably would have got my butt kicked.
All right.
I just wanted to do it.
I just want, I just wanted to fight for the title.
And it's kind of like Rocky, you know, it wasn't even about-
Did you have to sit in front of the boxing commission and like try to defend yourself
and stuff like that?
I mean, there was a whole lawsuit.
It was a whole-
Did you have to do that?
And that's kind of what I speak about.
I went through two or three years of going back and forth to Vegas, Nevada State Supreme

(18:12):
Court, and they can't take away my rights.
Now, I have become an advocate for safety because I've learned about head injuries.
And in the bigger picture is, look, that day might've changed my life for the better.
It might've saved my life.
Right.
What if I hadn't known about that head injury and I went right in the gym a month later

(18:34):
and started preparing for a world title fight?
I don't think I'd be here.
I couldn't, you can't get punched when you have a brain bleed, obviously.
So in a lot of ways, it took me years to realize, what the hell was I arguing for?
I didn't have a wife and family and didn't have this career.
I was younger and a little punkier.

(18:56):
I was so tunnel vision on boxing and this championship fight.
I don't even see that way anymore.
Now I'm like, I have children.
Now I see this way.
But like that, I'm like this.
Yeah.
I'm like, how could they stop me?
And I'm not going to get hurt.
And I worked so hard and my next fight's for 10 million.
It was just poor timing.

(19:17):
But at the end of the day, and that's what I speak on today when I'm speaking to high
school students or college students, the bigger picture of life.
And you don't need to be a celebrity to make a point or have a message.
I just tell them, look it, I was number one heavyweight in the contender of the world.
But look at the blessing that I was given.

(19:38):
Boxing was the tool God gave me.
It wasn't the gift.
So I thought it was my gift.
He gave me that tool.
So I now today can talk to kids.
So I now today can help raise money.
So I now today can make a difference in someone's life.
So I now today can have a family.

(20:00):
So boxing was not the goal.
I'm living the goal.
You know what I mean?
So I had to work.
You're like a real life Rocky, Joe.
Yeah, so I had to realize that.
And I don't know why I was given that gift.
But when I speak at schools and to this day, my wife and I were taking an Uber ride that
day and the guy was real quiet.

(20:20):
We jumped out and he goes, man, I just had to tell you, I didn't say anything because
it was your baby Joe.
And you came to my class 10 years ago and man, I was about to start a life of crime
and drugs.
He goes, this is one of three jobs that I have.
I have my own two bedroom apartment.
I do this.
I do that.
I have a rekindle my relationship with my father.
This guy was like in tears.
It's like 11 o'clock at night and I had three glasses of wine.

(20:40):
And I'm like getting out of this car.
I'm like, oh my God, I can't believe.
And my wife's like, man, you meet people every day that-
You've changed your life.
You're living it now.
You don't need to put gloves on.
Yeah.
So that's how I look at it.
It's kind of a corny way for me to accept it.
I don't think that's corny at all.
I think that's what it's really all about.

(21:01):
I mean, having an influence that you can use to make people's lives better, that's, I mean,
very real.
That's incredible.
I am forced to analyze life through what I'm speaking.
When I'm talking to my kids, when I'm at work, I'm in cell.
I analyze life through a fighter and that is what Rocky is.

(21:26):
Yeah.
It's a very Rocky mentality.
I don't know if they knew it in 1976 or five when he wrote it, the impact it was going
to make on society, but there is no better metaphor, no stronger metaphor than boxing
and life.
There's no better metaphor.
They go hand in hand.
You can't do it with the NFL.

(21:46):
You can't do it with NBA.
They all work hard.
There's no better metaphor.
Getting down, getting knocked up.
And that's how I analyze life.
And his famous quote is, it ain't how hard you get hit, it's about how hard you get hit.
That's Rocky series.
That's it.
Yep.
In a nutshell, that's the five, that's it.
It's not a boxing movie.
Yeah, the inspiration.

(22:06):
No, no.
And that's why boxing movies are the best movies.
They make the best movies.
I don't know if any could beat Rocky, but there's Mark Wahlberg in The Fighter because
I know Mickey Ward well, his life.
Raging Bull.
There's so many, they want to make this true story about Billy Misk in the twenties who
had kidney disease.

(22:28):
Boxing is not a collegiate sport.
You don't go to Yale and go to Ohio State and go to Boston College like these other
athletes do.
Not to say they don't have stories and work hard.
Boxing is a poor sport.
It's a ghetto sport.
No one wealthy goes into boxing.
Well, they touch upon that too in the series too.
It's like, you have an education.
Why would you go into boxing?

(22:48):
Their story of overcoming from age three to five and dodging bullets and their stories
are all movie worthy.
So it's easy to, and so, I mean, that's why I love talking about boxers, to boxers.
All athletes have interesting stories and have a message, but boxing, I find the most

(23:12):
interesting because their backgrounds are unique and all different.
I broke you guys in the NFL, I went to Ohio State and I don't feel bad for them at that
point.
You know, but, and then I'm not putting them down.
I respect them, but boxing, it just, it echoes life.
Well, and it's also like, it's also a very individual sport.

(23:33):
I mean, you talk about the team that's around you, which is real, you know, and they're
the ones that, but you're in there by yourself fighting, you know, so.
You know, there are times you can lie in life and times you can't, and you cannot lie in
the ring.
Your true self comes out and it is a very psychological, a very emotional sport.

(23:59):
It has nothing to do with size, stature, physique, who's stronger, has nothing to do with that.
And you can't hide and you can't lie and I could share stories with you, but like, obviously
I'm not even in shape.
I don't have a physique like a lot of these guys do.

(24:19):
And I beat 36 guys, all of which were bigger, stronger, definitely had better physiques,
definitely more experienced.
I started boxing at 18.
I mean, that has nothing to do with it, but when you're in the ring and you're inches
away eye to eye with somebody, I always, I made this quote like, you know, a brotherhood

(24:41):
kind of forms.
You know, I've said in the past, I wrote this down and I said it to a bunch of fighters
I was speaking to, you know, a unique relationship forms when you're going rounds with another
man, even though you're trying to knock him out and put them on a commission, often and
oddly enough at the same time, a development of respect and admiration and brotherhood is

(25:03):
evolving unavoidably.
And something, but you know, that doesn't change the fact that you're getting to know
this guy from his eyes.
Like by around five, you know him better than his mother knows him.
I'm telling you.
And then when you hit him and his knees buckle, he's not the same tough guy that came in the
gym 20 minutes earlier.

(25:24):
They, I mean, some people fold and some people respond and react differently when they get
hit like that.
And that's who Rocky was.
Yeah.
Rocky was the ultimate, you know, awesome, full of heart.
And those are the kind of fighters I like.
Yeah.
Jed has a theory that like a video game, he gets strength from getting hit.

(25:46):
Rocky has to absorb hits to build a meter so that he can counter attack.
That seems to be a way a lot of his fights went where he just, he doesn't have much defense
as we all knew.
And he has to have some control.
You know, but that's how boxing is.
Like, let's look, I was on the Olympic team with Floyd Mayweather and that group of guys.
And I think he's the greatest fighter to walk the planet.

(26:10):
Having said that, he bores me and he's not a huge fan.
And if I'm going to spend my a hundred bucks somewhere, I'd rather watch Arturo Gatti.
I'd rather watch Evander Holyfield.
Look, he is definitely the best.
I like fighters.
I'm not patting myself like me.
My defense wasn't really the best.
But I got knocked down a lot, never lost.

(26:34):
You know, I like those types of fighters.
I like Arturo Gatti and Mickey Ward.
You know, even Oscar De La Hoya, man, in his era, he's got lots of losses.
He has like seven, eight losses.
He's still one of the greatest.
You know why?
He never said no to competition.
He fought everyone in their prime.
He's got knocked down so many times.
He's gotten back up.

(26:54):
And those are the guys I want to pay for.
Well, so much of, you know, Rocky is all about just having heart.
And I mean, like, how much does that really play into it?
Like you're saying it's not about like being the biggest or being the strongest.
But I mean, you're kind of saying the same thing that Rocky and all of his trainers say
to, you know.
When he's laying there with Adrian in the bed, cuddled up and he's scared and he says,

(27:17):
you know, all I want to do is go the distance.
Yep.
It's one of my favorite scenes in all of them.
Yep.
And you don't have to, you know, tragedy shapes us.
Loss shapes us.
Wins don't.
I've had the, everyone talks about these.
I have like three, a couple on ESPN, one on ESPN, like three 30 second knockouts.

(27:41):
Everyone gets them every now and then.
Everyone talks about them.
And I'm, I always remind them, like, I learned nothing from those.
I know they're your favorite fights and look, believe me, they're mine too.
I don't, like, I love getting out of there early.
I want you to know.
I want you to know.
And I never learned a thing out of those fights.
And people think, well, you're 36 and oh, that's great.
Let me also tell you this.

(28:02):
They don't know what I went through.
I got my ass handed to me in the gym day after day after day.
I mean, sparring for years, I've gotten knocked down.
I've gotten knocked out of the ring.
I've gotten broken everything.
I worked so hard.

(28:22):
I don't even, I don't even want to tell, my kids are 14.
I don't even expect them to understand.
I don't even expect them to understand.
I don't even want them to know.
Like I, it's the hardest thing I ever did.
And people see my hand get held up third round.
They don't, they'll never understand.
It's so difficult to prepare.
I had great coaches.

(28:42):
I had great team around me and that's all I had.
I had no talent.
I had only one option.
That was to work hard.
That's something, Joe, that's something I wanted you to speak to that we're kind of
dancing around is your community, your relationship with your trainer.
Because that's something that we've talked about earlier in this series is the special

(29:06):
relationship between boxer and trainer.
And if you could speak a little bit to your experience with the community around you when
it came to your training and preparation and everything.
Yeah.
Did you have a mickey?
Let's start from the beginning.
Rocky, one of the greatest characters in the history of acting is Burgess Meredith.

(29:27):
It's brilliant.
And that was in the seventies.
They didn't expect this to be nominated and win.
They didn't expect that.
He just wanted to get a movie film with $60,000 budget, which was nothing.
And like he just, the fact that he casted the people that he casted and they nailed
the roles, they nailed it.

(29:48):
They're more iconic than maybe Godfather.
And they depicted it great because my trainer, Juan de Leon, is my brother.
I have a brother I love and is the reason I'm here.
He was a great boxer, my brother, but Juan is my other brother and his children are my

(30:08):
godchildren.
Juan's in Puerto Rico right now.
Juan lives and dies by boxing.
He's training a couple of world champions right now.
Juan's brother was former four time cruiserweight champion of the world, Carlos Sugar de Leon.
He passed.
All they do is live and eat boxing.
I don't any longer live that life.
But nonetheless, a relationship, I get emotional.

(30:34):
Not many guys last their whole career with one trainer.
A lot do that relationship special.
But I mean, that guy, I don't mean to sound like he's bathed me.
He's cared for me.
He's cared for me.
And my dad, who's a cop, we're getting to know Juan in the early 90s.
And he's like, listen, you got to travel with this guy without me.
I kind of know him.

(30:54):
I don't know him.
Immediately a love began.
He protects me.
I mean, he has cried many days with me.
And when you're in the ring, his life is in your hands almost.
And he's almost thrown the towel many times on me.
And I mean, there's a relationship.

(31:14):
It's just unique.
I went to a boxing dinner.
That's what I do in my lives.
And I go to all these boxing dinners in like Belfast, New York here.
And a guy was being honored.
This guy was 68 years old.
And he got emotional.
His trainer happened to be in Florida.
And he's another old man.
And he hadn't had gloves on in how many years.
And he got emotional talking about his relationship with his trainer.

(31:37):
He's 68 years old.
That's how I get emotional talking about it.
The relationship is the most unique bond in the world that's not blood.
Well, it's kind of like you're going to war together.
You know?
Yeah.
It's like you're in the trenches.
Heather Ray and I worked on the Mike Tyson Hulu series.
And I had to do a lot of background research.

(31:59):
On Kusumato.
That's why I was going to say it.
Before doing the research, I had sort of a cursory knowledge of Kusumato and Tyson's
relationship.
But I didn't know a lot of detail.
And doing that deep dive, having to go do that research and everything, watching documentary
footage.
I came out of that going, oh my god, no wonder he had him in his house.
And he was doing these.

(32:19):
It all made sense when you started to listen to him talk about it.
And on paper, it might seem a little weird that this older guy is pseudo adopting a young
kid into his house to train him.
It doesn't sound like crazy left field.
But it is kind of odd on paper.
But then when you see the story, it all makes sense.
And you're like, oh my god, he really was like a father figure and everything.

(32:41):
And Tyson said it himself about that feeling.
Is that a usual thing, Joe, that the trainer would or the boxer would live with the trainer
when they were?
Look, I spent time at Juan's house a lot.
Juan had a place here in Buffalo.
He had a place in Puerto Rico.
So we trained a lot in Puerto Rico.
But during the 90s up to 2005, I spent more time with Juan than my dad, my brother.

(33:04):
I wasn't married.
So we would go three weeks, four weeks away and stay in a hotel room that started to smell
from my boxing equipment.
There was no air BB.
We rent these apartments in Puerto Rico and in Houston, Texas.
I didn't train a lot in Buffalo.
I did sometimes.
But in Buffalo, I'd stay at his house.

(33:25):
There's 60 days of this, no girls and no alcohol.
Women weaken legs.
And all I did was see Juan three times a day all day.
And he's right there next to me.
We took it that serious.
And yeah, so I could see how that rapport and that bond builds.

(33:47):
It's a true unique love.
That's awesome.
That's great.
When you were at- I'm messaging my trainer right now saying, happy birthday, by the way.
Fantastic.
Happy birthday.
Happy birthday, Juan.
That's something now you kind of got me curious.

(34:07):
Because you're active in the 90s and by this point, you have five Rocky movies out.
How often would you hear somebody saying a quote or something that's- I know it's cliche,
but it's also it's like this sort of like here's this franchise kind of staring you
down from the side.
Is that something that was sort of prevalent in the background even though it's a fictional

(34:31):
story but it's an inspiring story?
Or was it like, no, no, no, that's fiction.
This is reality.
Like focus over here.
I mean, Rocky was like brought up, but it's still, if I was out of town and my shitty
cable pack, if it was on, you watched it.
Every time.
It's on, you're going to watch it.

(34:51):
Look, it doesn't- You could rank them in your favorites.
This doesn't matter which one's on, they're all motivating.
And you don't have to be a boxer to be motivated.
Nope.
Motivates you to do anything.
Yep.
So- That speaks to what you're saying.
When you're training and you're away for six, when you're training and you're away for six
or eight weeks, you're exhausted.
You're tired.
And a little motivation always is good and helps.

(35:13):
So I always watched it.
I was never compared to it because I think people really understood the fiction is of
it, but it's so good, this series, you're able to put, it's so not realistic that no
one talks about it.
They put it aside.
It's so not realistic, but it's put aside because the true part of the movie is the

(35:39):
motivation.
The true part of the movie is the love story.
The true part of the story is the relationship with the trainer and Pauly.
The true part of the movie, it's not a boxing movie or series.
The true part of the movie is how to be a better person.
The true part of the movie is how to be better at your job.
The fiction part is just the excitement.
That's just- Yeah, we've talked about how it allows you,

(36:03):
it encourages you to suspend your disbelief in order to just see the message and see,
feel the feels of all of it.
Good writing.
We've said it before on the podcast, but even as film people where we will nitpick something
if you don't interest us story-wise, but a good story, we can suspend disbelief just

(36:24):
as easily still.
That's what a good story is.
Then I won't care about the weird dressing in the background or the color of the sheets
or something.
Or the robot.
Or the robot.
Yeah.
You're so very captivated by the verbiage, by the actual writing.
I don't think, I knew what he, I could picture when he's writing this, what he's trying to

(36:45):
get out of it.
Just think about, wouldn't you mind marrying me very much?
That's one of our favorite lines, by the way.
Those are things, Merge is very, your motivation.
We've mentioned that.
You're hitting all the spots.

(37:06):
Those letters were written and at the time he's writing those, to you it's Thanksgiving,
to me it's Thursday.
These stupid little quotes that he's just, they're brilliant today.
I don't know if he knew them.
That's brilliant and hilarious.
It's amazing how much Rocky infiltrates my real day-to-day life in a way that you would

(37:27):
just never suspect ever.
It happens way more often than it should maybe, but here we are.
I have a question about the team itself.
You the boxer, you have your trainer.
In the movie they show a cut man, they show a pad man, they show a corner man.
What are those positions?

(37:47):
I've always wondered.
Boxing is a team sport.
I see people that are these fighters.
I'm in here alone.
I credit everyone around me and I had a great team, but part of my team was family.
My father was my manager.
My brother played a lot of roles.

(38:07):
Again, my trainer was family.
So I had family around me and family and boxing and history don't typically mix well.
Many families have split most when it's a fighter-manager, fighter-trainer relationship.
They don't work well in history, but it happened to work.
It wasn't easy.

(38:28):
My legal team are my cousins.
In history, it does not work and I could see why it doesn't.
Listen, there were days tears were shed and I could have choked everyone, but in history
it doesn't work.

(38:49):
Every state has a different rule as far as the corner goes.
Boxing is my favorite sport in the world.
The business of boxing is a different topic.
I don't want to use the word corrupt, but there's no organization like the National

(39:10):
Hockey League, the NBA.
There isn't an organization, a union, a board, a league, a leadership.
There's no one that runs this sport.
The promoters run it, right?
The promoters and as far as the US goes, the states.
Every state has a different rule and the state athletic commissions, they kind of make their

(39:31):
rules up as they go.
But every state has a different rule.
Might be a lot of two guys, might be a lot of three guys.
You always want a cut man.
You always want a second man.
Maybe one guy could speak during the fight, during the actual round.
I had that in my notes.
I was like, is it true that you could only say like when you're boxing, tell you what

(39:52):
to do.
During the round, yes.
You could yell something.
If it's really aggressive, the ref will say, listen, I'm going to take a point away from
this round.
If you're not the lead, you're not the main guy.
I would always position my brother front row so I could hear him more.

(40:13):
Juan barely spoke English.
I spoke Spanish.
I mean, I learned Spanish through Juan.
He would give me directions in Spanish.
That's cool.
But my Spanish wasn't great and chances are I was fighting another Spanish guy.
So that didn't work out that well.
So I put my brother, anyway, everyone has their own little strategy.
But yeah, but commissions are tough.

(40:36):
Now there's things that they don't know and they rightfully so because I'm an advocate
for safety that I mentioned.
Suppose you're in the back getting ready and they're always brand new gloves.
So brand new gloves are hard as a rock.
You have to stretch them.
We're heavyweights.
My hands are huge.
You're getting them in.
You're going to put them in.
Your hands are taped up like cast.
So you put your hand in and I'll say to who was my cousin, he's a huge guy and strong.

(41:00):
He'd lift me up.
He'd get the glove so tight and then I'd have to pull it out.
It's not right.
It's not right.
So you're talking about a commissioner that's standing there has to put his hand in.
He has to be safe just in case something was put in there.
Like Mickey.
They stand there and watch you tape.
Like a razor blade or something?
Guys have been jailed for life for cutting padding out.

(41:23):
So your hands, they stand there.
How many rolls of gauze?
You only get a roll and a half.
How much tape?
You can't put tape on the knuckles.
You can put it behind.
They stand there and they sign off on it.
Another guy from the other team will typically stand there.
They'll switch locker rooms.
I used to always send a guy over like my brother to watch them because you're putting a cast
on underneath is what you're essentially doing.

(41:45):
And I know on TV those gloves look cushy.
They're not.
Okay.
They're, I spar as a heavy with 18 ounce gloves.
They're big and you could still get hurt.
You could still, they're big gloves and head gear and all 36 fights, not one.
I was not reminded when I went to the venue because you have these 18 ounce gloves on

(42:06):
sparring for eight, 10 weeks before the fight.
And then you get this eight or 10 ounce glove on, it's brand new, it's rock hard.
And you're like, what the frig?
Oh my God.
I can't.
And you're thinking 18, like it's a mitten.
It looks like a mitten and the TV makes it look like they're so cushy, but they hurt.
And it's stiff and it's hard.

(42:27):
But yeah.
So the commissions do a good job.
But depending on the corner, it would depend on what state you're in.
You know, one guy can talk and then it's very, there's always a commission guy in the corner
for those 60 seconds.
They're looking and they're looking at water bottles.
They've checked water bottles.
They're looking at the amount of Vaseline's being put on your face.
You can't put too much Vaseline.

(42:51):
You're allowed a certain amount, but it can't be clunky.
And there's a cut man there with the end swell, which I always hated because he's always pushing.
I would swell up here.
He's always pushing it down, pushing it down.
A good cut man is essential.
And I want to add a question about the cut man.
What kind of medical expertise does this person have?
Usually he's a janitor of some kind.

(43:13):
Clean up.
He knows that a filet of fish.
As long as he's good with the fryer.
There's no medical.
I don't think there's any.
I had a physician many times in my corner.
It happened to work out.

(43:33):
I had a guy named Pat Kelly from Niagara Falls, Ontario, who would travel with me sometimes.
Oftentimes you would simply go to my first 10, 14 fights, kind of community center type
fights.
They're just small.
And you would just go there and be like, we'll just give a guy a hundred bucks.

(43:55):
I'm sure there's one in the building.
But as we got more ESPN level, regional TV and Canadians, then you probably wanted to
bring your own.
Medical background?
Zero.
Good answer.
Very clear.
That's kind of what we assume.
But they will have access to these pharmaceutical medicines that are legal.

(44:18):
It's kind of like, there's a couple of things that limit the bleeding and they know how
to maybe close the tissue a little bit.
I mean, I've been sewn up probably like three or four times after the fight, but I never
had any stoppages come close to it.
So my guys did a good job.
Too much blood, certainly in the amateurs, no matter where it comes from, even a nose,

(44:43):
they'll stop it, even if you're winning.
The pros, I remember Klitschko, Lennox Lewis, that was the most grotesque cut.
His eyelid was not on.
It was hanging.
But it was a heavyweight world title fight.
And I remember the announcer was like Lampley and Larry, and they're like, it's the heavyweight.

(45:06):
I mean, the guy wants to fight.
You got to let him fight.
I mean, so he doesn't have an eyelid.
Big deal.
I mean, I don't know how I'd react.
I kind of want an eyelid.
You want the title more.
Well, for people listening, I think we should point out that you look really great.
So I would say your team did do a good job, all things considered.

(45:28):
So kudos to your team.
Give all your teeth everything.
I broke my orbital.
I broke my mandible, not to mention the brain bleeds.
I had a lot of injuries, but not many too bad to the face, I don't think.
That's maybe a good segue, because I have been sort of fascinated by the Rocky injuries

(45:49):
post fights throughout the series, where I'm pretty sure in real life that man would have
no orbitals left.
But I'm not a doctor either.
You're a janitor though.
I am a janitor though, and a dishwasher.
But I want you to speak to us about your opinion on the way the boxing is shown throughout

(46:12):
the franchise, that maybe some things that you think are more realistic, some things
that are more far-fetched and imaginary.
The example I would use is, I pointed out before how everyone's tossing each other around,
these are grown men tossing 200-something pound men around as if they're all stuffed
animals.
But what are some things that you remember from the series that you maybe think are,

(46:36):
they stand out to you as maybe a more realistic...
You know, it's interesting.
I lived the sport in the ring, I know the rules.
They've done such a good job with that movie.
Even to this day, if I watch the first Rocky, for example, and he gets knocked down and
he doesn't even get an eight count.
Do you know what I mean?
When you get knocked down and you're knee...

(46:58):
This has been going on since probably, I'd say 1980.
Look, you got knocked down, the referee stands up and you get an eight count.
That never even happens.
They just get knocked down and he gets back up.
They don't even wipe his gloves off.
And even I don't care because I'm like...
Even I excuse that because the excitement that they created and built up is magical.

(47:24):
So it's overlooked.
It's not realistic.
Even the first three, one, two, and three, are so unrealistic.
It's a joke for me to sit here and say it's comical.
But guess what?
It's awesome.
It's actually comical.
You should have been with us this whole time, Joe.
As a professional, I could dissect 100 things that would never happen in real life.

(47:49):
Even the sound.
I mean, you have to do that for the purpose of the movie and to create excitement and
the knockdowns and the blood.
You have to do that.
But as a fighter, I don't care.
Now if you get into, I don't know what, Rocky V and Antonio Tarver, they changed the choreography

(48:13):
a bit.
They went with real...
They were at Mandalay Bay.
They had a real fight night and they had the crowd come early so they didn't pay for extras.
At Harold Letterman and Larry Merchant.
And they said, before the fight shows, we need this place for a couple hours.
Like, thank you for coming.
You're going to be in the movie.
And they rehearsed their already choreographed fight.
And it was with real commentators.

(48:34):
I love Harold Letterman and Jim Lampley and George Foreman.
And then they didn't really use as much fake punching sound.
It was a little bit more...
Of course, they were using Tarver.
And it was much more realistic because it was a more realistic setting.
And I liked it.
They pulled it off pretty good.

(48:56):
They pulled it off pretty good.
It was a little more real punching and combinations and not as wild as the first few movies were.
Yeah, they totally piggybacked off of...
There was an actual fight that was happening and they piggybacked off the whole thing.
And we can say, from a film perspective, pulling those things off is no easy task.

(49:18):
Because a lot of times you're going into that live event going, we have one, if we're lucky,
two takes tops, kind of thing.
This is your window.
This is what we got.
There's so much pre-planning.
And there's been jobs for me, at least, that it's gone really well and there's ones that
it's gone really badly.
Yeah.
And also they had the crowd...
The crowd started yelling for Rocky.

(49:39):
The personal...
They weren't even supposed to.
They just started to.
I don't think they knew.
Did they know that they were also going to be involved in the movie?
They were there for the actual fight.
No, they didn't know until they got there.
Until they got there, right?
Yeah.
And then they had the monster Stallone come out and they start chanting Rocky without
anybody telling them to do so.
I mean, why would you not?

(49:59):
Of course you're going to chant for Rocky.
He was great.
He was at my fight.
I had one of my fights at Mandalay Bay and he came in the locker room and...
Fly?
At MGM.
Yeah, at MGM in Mandalay Bay.
He can do whatever he wants.
He's filmed there.
But he was wonderful.
He was great.
But that...
It was great because I was on that floor and I was in that ring.

(50:22):
So when I watch that, I'm like, I'm a little familiar.
So I really liked that movie.
And I liked Tarver.
Tarver, we got to know each other and he did a great job filling in and doing a great job
in that role.
It starts to get a little...
His age there starts to get a little crazy and that's why the rest of the series kind

(50:43):
of melts a little bit.
But I love Tommy Morrison too.
I knew Tommy Morrison.
He and I shared the same promoter and I spent a lot of time with Tommy Morrison.
And that story even itself as outlandish as it is, awesome story.

(51:03):
And it's just a story about family and loyalty.
Little boxing in it, little street fighting.
But the story behind it is family and loyalty and the relationship with his son and they
do a good job.
Can you speak, because we only know Tommy Morrison character, Rocky Five.
Can you speak briefly to Tommy Gunn?

(51:25):
Wait, I have him backwards.
Yeah, we know of Tommy Gunn.
We only know Tommy Gunn.
We don't know Morrison.
But we don't know much about Tommy Morrison as far as a person character.
Can you speak to that briefly?
Yeah, we kept saying, I'm sure he's a lovely person, but in this movie...
Yeah.

(51:46):
You know something, my interactions with him were always at the boxing gym.
We ran in the mornings, we trained together.
He worked hard.
I could dissect him as having one of the best left hooks in heavyweight history, top three.
He hit hard.
He was good.
He was a good fighter.
He caught a couple bad breaks.
As a person, I didn't get to know him outside that relationship.

(52:10):
I heard he was difficult.
I can't judge him because I know he had an upbringing like no other, like a Mike Tyson
like upbringing.
Nothing as poor as it comes in Oklahoma.
So I don't put to place judgment on anyone.
Look, I didn't have that upbringing.
Both my parents worked.

(52:31):
I'm from Amherst, the safest city in America.
I don't have that kind of story upbringing and challenges.
Yeah, I overcame a lot, but not like that as a childhood.
He had HIV.
Now I'm hearing he didn't.
I don't care.
I'm going to tell you a funny story.
After my injury in 2004, I spent a couple of years in this legal battle.

(52:55):
The long story short is I guess I won the legal battle.
They said, listen, your license is expired.
We can't suspend an unlicensed person.
Look, you're free to apply in any state you want to box, Joe.
And I go, wow, that's great.
Well guess what?
The states of Nevada are the only money making states.

(53:15):
They're in cahoots with each other and those are the only states Joe from Buffalo makes
money.
I can make money in Nevada on HBO and my money was really made downtown Buffalo.
I was realistic with my career.
Well those two states are going to let me fight.
What good is baby Joe Maisy?
Let's be honest.
Okay.
So we're like my trainers and I were like, listen, we'll go to these smaller states and

(53:37):
we'll show them your health.
Let's go to Texas and New Mexico and Puerto Rico.
No license my son, no license anybody.
You know, no license.
And I'm like, okay, but we'll gather a couple of wins.
We'll show them I'm healthy.
I'm back.
And I remember my first fight back.
I had to get back in shape again.
I think it was in West Virginia.

(53:57):
Okay.
Not a lot of boxing happens there.
I don't even know if they have an athletic commission.
I think it was some lady like, yeah, you can fight.
I don't know, but they let me.
So I get there.
It was a great fight.
It was like on this regional TV and I get there and I get off this bus and who do I
see Tommy Morris?
And now he hadn't fought in years too.
And he's going, Joe, I can't believe it.

(54:18):
He goes, they let me fight here too.
Oh my God.
I'm going, I'm trying to like make a statement that a West Virginia is letting baby Joe box.
You don't care.
You have AIDS and I don't know all this other try.
They let you fight too on the same show.
I'm like, this makes it.
Not only does it make it me look bad.

(54:39):
It makes West Virginia look bad.
And we were kind of like, man, anyway, it worked out great.
I had a great win.
I think he had a win too.
And I think he fizzled off after that, but it was like, it looked like a boxing show
full of like demented damage.
And I mean, I don't know.
I think they had Joe Frazier fight one round.
It was like the Paralympics.

(55:04):
So West Virginia people, that's where you go.
Can you just, you can imagine that sort of like, but anyway, so I always had like good
interactions with him.
He's got an incredible story and he's got incredible fight footage.
So I'm a huge fan of his.
And again, we shared the same promoter.
We've got that little white hope story behind us.

(55:24):
And I don't know.
I liked him.
But in the, in throughout the series, because we've obviously been deep diving now for nine
episodes.
What are some things, some highlights for you of favorite moments from the series that

(55:45):
that you cherish the most?
You know, as I'm sitting there scrolling, that most popular one is because of the relationship
with the trainer.
And I've had moments just like this and I get emotional.
And my wife has even seen it.
Like, you know, when Mickey holds him and gives him the ring and he's passed away, but

(56:05):
he goes to the old abandoned gym and he's talking to Mickey and he's like, get up you
son of a bitch.
You know, I'm always going to be there and I'm not here.
I'm teaching you.
I want you to be ready for life, you know, and not just boxing and like, I'm going to
be here for you.
And then when he screams, I mean, Mickey's one of my favorite characters ever.
And that's that bond I had with Juan.

(56:27):
Juan has told me many more times.
He's like, Joe, you know, Juan had a hell of an upbringing in Puerto Rico.
He's like, this is this is bigger than boxing.
What I'm teaching you, you're going to be able to take this when you're not boxing,
you know, and he always taught me that.
And that's what Mickey's little speech there.
So the trainer boxer relationship throughout the boxing series probably hits me the most

(56:49):
because I understand it the best.
The love story is kind of cool.
I can't imagine a lot of boxers do it.
They have families, you know, and it's hard to leave a family and train and be sack face
and watch your kid.
I didn't experience that.
My family came later and it's kind of funny.

(57:10):
I don't know if I have what it takes anymore to find that person.
So we had people at my house a few months ago and why on the big screen TV, someone
pulls up a fight of mine in YouTube.
And my wife's in the kitchen and she's watching it and I'm coming down and I'm walking to
the ring and I have this face and like 30,000 people and they're screaming.

(57:33):
And my wife whispers to me as we're prepping some food for the guests.
And she goes, I haven't seen that face in a long time.
And I just kept going on.
I'm like about and I'm like later on, I'm like, what do you mean?
Like, dude, I'll kick ass.
What are you talking about?
I haven't seen that face.
I'm 50 years old and super out of shape.
And she's like, no, you don't understand you.

(57:55):
I don't think that person, I don't think you can even go there anymore.
She's like, I knew that guy.
She's like, you that type of focus, you had no kids, you had no job.
Like you had no, that was your job.
You when I tell you, you were so, you can't get that.
That's a special person right there.
And it kind of resonated with me after a few days and weeks.

(58:16):
I'm like, maybe she's right.
I think it's hard to have all of those peripheral distractions.
And I give people credit that do.
That was my life.
That's all I had cared about.
Well, Mickey says the worst thing, the worst thing that happened to you that could happen
to any fighter, you got civilized.
You got normalized, right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's very, very true.
And I credit to those that have that and have your kids there.

(58:40):
And I look at those are the time.
I love the background story.
I love the background story of a fighter.
That's what not even more than the fight.
That's what gets me.
I want to get to know the fighter.
And I'm with you.
I love it.
I love the exposition of a story for sure.
We'll see how people got there.
Once you're there, it's got to get boring.

(59:01):
I love movies.
And my wife's always making fun.
And I love the background story of the movie that you guys probably get the things that
were said, things that were done, things that were ad libbed, stories behind the scene,
how this part was no one even expected it to be adjusted, but was just like those.
I love I'm always like YouTubing those stories and have background.

(59:22):
I just saw like a special on the Bee Gees.
I don't know.
But they were it was like a talking they're all dead now, but it was old.
And they're like how they came up with the music.
And the guy's like I was on an airplane.
I heard the engine and there was a way the engine was going.
And like, I love hearing those stories and Aerosmith on Howard Stern last week.

(59:44):
He's like an instrument broke.
So I took a bag a thing of TikToks.
When you hear the beginning of it, I was just he's like, we're recording live.
I need this.
We have no more tape.
And he's like, I do the TikToks.
And like and that's the beginning of a song like those little stories like that that people
don't know.
You really need to watch the Wu Tang Saga on Hulu, by the way, the Wu Tang Saga.

(01:00:05):
If you're interested in that, yeah, you're you definitely need to check that out.
I will.
Yeah, I will.
Well, I want to welcome Hulu plugging that for you.
I wanted to ask you when you were talking about how your wife said she doesn't see that
face like that and, you know, in a long time, that made me think of a question I had when
you're actually fighting.

(01:00:26):
Is it like when you get those first couple of punches, you realize you're you're you're
boxing.
But do you go through like a euphoria or like some sort of like high once you start once
you start getting into the fight?
Does that happen like with runners?
Is it just adrenaline or is it?
Yeah, I'm explaining that to you because, you know, running is a big portion of my career.

(01:00:47):
That's what boxers do.
Right.
And there's no better feeling than that runner's high.
I mean, I had it maybe 10 times in my life.
Now, it's not often where you just get in your flying.
But like that happens in the ring, too.
I can reflect back more to sparring.
Again, you guys remember me in the fights and stuff, but I did thousands upon thousands

(01:01:10):
of rounds sparring.
Some days are good and some days are bad.
But I remember like being there and I'm like today.
I don't know why, but these guys can't touch me.
And I'm just like, let's just keep going.
And like you're in this kind of you're in this mode.
But with real fights is different.
You always like I'm not going to be as nervous as fight.
I don't know why beforehand.

(01:01:32):
The anticipation this goes for a lot of things is worse than the actual.
Why do we anticipate and worry and worry and worry about so much?
Because whenever we get in anticipation of death is worse than death itself.
You know, for sure.
But the anticipation of the fight is worse than the actual fight.
Win or lose is like so why do we get ourselves worked up?

(01:01:53):
But we do.
And I know I pee a hundred times before each fight.
When I was still acting before I went on stage, I would be like, I'm going to pee my pants
right now.
I am definitely going to pee my pants before.
And then as soon as you get on stage, you're like, here we are.
Yeah, I did.
I didn't be blocked up.
I just become that person, you know, I'm going to pull my shorts down because I have gloves
on.
That sounds like, yeah, like Creed.

(01:02:17):
There's one part in Creed when he's like, cut him off, cut him off.
Unless you want to wipe my ass.
It's the it's the locker room stories that are great.
And the, you know, the stories afterwards, you know, my brother was known and he did.
He would you'd wonder like, but who's throwing up in the stall and be my brother.

(01:02:40):
My brother threw up before every fight and just fun, unequal memories.
And watching the Rocky movies, you know, I reflect back to because you see him in the
ring and you see those conversations with Apollo and that, you know, you obviously make
comparisons, you know.
So they're wonderful, wonderful memories, you know, as we start to wind this down, because

(01:03:06):
I again, thanking you for your time today, Joe, I'm going to condense a little bit of
this into a technical question.
There is a user review that was very upset with Creed three, and it involves a lot of
skipping over technical related things.

(01:03:26):
And something that we get into in the latter parts of this entire franchise is a little
bit of gray area on weight classes.
We get into like at one point we were hearing cruiser weight that had never popped up in
the series before.
And Adonis is a light heavyweight champion, which was new to us.

(01:03:48):
So real quick, could you speak to how those those weight classes or at least the the heavyweight
and around the heavyweight, like we don't necessarily have to go all the way to feather.
But how does that break down in a normal rational boxing?
Well, that is something to the Rocky series that is also excused.

(01:04:09):
How do you really feel, Joe?
And it's excused brilliantly because again, it's you're seeing you're seeing the bigger
picture and you're not looking at that stuff.
But like, you know, meeting Stallone, he's like, guys, one hundred eighty five pounds
a bus, you know.
And so him and Ivan Drago, even Mr. T, it doesn't add up.

(01:04:32):
It doesn't make sense.
Last week, as I'm falling asleep and my wife's like, what's this like?
Let's Creed 2, the one I'd already seen the last 20 minutes in the fight.
And I brought up the podcast.
Let me just finish it.
And Michael Jordan was so much smaller than that other guy they got to play that role.
I mean, so much smaller.

(01:04:53):
It's got to be 40 pounds.
In boxing, heavyweight is 205 and heavier.
And it's so funny how these all are weight classes.
They're super middleweight, junior lightweight.
They're over five pound difference.
Welterweight 147, 56.
That's probably the most competitive and most talented, in my opinion.

(01:05:13):
But and then there's cruiserweight, you know, in the 187 and higher to 205.
It gets to be a bigger gap.
Heavyweight is 205 and over.
They talk about making a super heavyweight division in the pros like there is in the
amateurs.
In the amateurs, every weight class just bumps down one and they added a super heavyweight.

(01:05:35):
I don't know why they do that.
But I'm against it.
Heavyweights are getting bigger and bigger since Lennox Lewis.
They're all over 250, you know.
I think it would ruin the sport of a heavyweight and a super heavyweight.
I think once you're over 200 pounds, if you're 220 and you're fighting a guy 250, so be it.

(01:05:56):
You both punch hard.
And the way I looked at it, the bigger and stronger, the easier the fight was for me.
That doesn't worry me at all.
I always did worse when I sparred cruiserweights.
I hated when my wand was like, we got a couple of cruiserweights coming in like, son, they're
so fast, like speed wins.
I don't like sparring small.
I'd rather spar big, dumb, slow muscle.

(01:06:17):
So I don't care like the galatas, all those big guys, they never worried me.
The leaner, fast boxing guy worried me.
So it's to each his own, but I don't think adding a super heavyweight division would
be worth it.
I don't think adding head gear they've talked about would be worth it.
But yeah, in the Rocky series, again, it's overlooked.

(01:06:39):
Michael Jordan would get his butt kicked by that guy that they got to play that role.
Drago's son.
It totally mirrors Rocky and Von Drago as well.
You know, I mean, same kind of weight difference it seems.
You know, then the little things, because we're so ingrained in this Rocky series, what
I thought, you know, when the end and Drago is sitting there with his defeated son in

(01:07:06):
the locker room, I don't know if this is like the first one, I think, and Rocky just comes
out and catches Drago's eye.
And Drago just gives him a nod, like, I accepted it.
And it's like that because we're so ingrained in that Drago series from the late 80s, like
and like that relationship that they had and he just gave him a nod.

(01:07:29):
Like, yeah.
You know, yeah, there's all that coming back, the whole Sins of the Father thing, you know?
I mean, it's really and he there's a moment in there, too, where Drago is watching the
fight of Von Drago.
And it's like, oh, is that a tinge of guilt or regret for what happened to Creed?

(01:07:49):
I mean, it's really.
Those are little things, Heather.
Those are little things.
Now, if my kids saw it, yeah, it's exciting.
They can't appreciate that.
They don't bring that.
They don't bring that 80s, 90s nostalgia.
There's little things that are said in the movie, little moments, little actions and
little nods like that.
That, oh, man, my kids would never understand that nod.

(01:08:10):
Like, you know, like you're you're you're incredible.
Like you're, you know, like, you know, so they wouldn't they don't get that.
You know, that's stuff that we brought with us.
And that's what the Rocky series is.
There's little things we all take different from this movie that they get if my kids watch
it, I don't think my one thing they've ever seen, Rocky, I'm going to have to make sure

(01:08:30):
they.
I mean, how is that possible?
I mean, they've they understand it.
It's been out in the background.
But will they like it?
Sure.
They'll take from it what we do because our era?
No, you can't.
I mean, I was talking I had mentioned this in one of the previous podcasts is that I
and an ex of mine has a son who is 16 years old and he grew up watching the Rocky movies,

(01:08:53):
but he still prefers the Creed movies, you know.
So and I wonder how much of it is just, you know, a change in sensibilities of how people
watch movies and how much of it is due to the fact that the nostalgia of it is so heavy.
And I mean, heavy in a good way.
It's so thick, I guess, you know, that maybe the kids today.

(01:09:19):
Imagine they're watching Rocky one or two recognize the fact that the crowd doesn't
look real.
The noises don't sound like real because of technology and the way they make films today
and the way they use extras today and the budgets today and how they watch movies.
So maybe we didn't know any different in the 70s.
That crowd look great to me.
All the cardboard cutouts.
That cardboard cutouts are great to me.

(01:09:43):
The poor lighting look great to me.
You know, they're holding up flashlights and stuff.
The poor lighting, the bad sound effects sounded good to me.
Yeah, they don't get that.
There's one part in Rocky three where you could see it over Apollo's shoulder.
You know, the video village in the audience with like director chair that says Mr. T in

(01:10:04):
a director chair.
That's a sly.
I'm telling you, next time you watch it, look for it.
It is so hilarious.
When you watch the behind the scenes.
I had a DVD once and it's it stuck with me and it was really where I learned like the
small budget and how he lived in his car and how he sold it.
And all his one filmmaker made this camera.

(01:10:25):
It was the first camera that was tied around the belt and was able to run with it.
And it looked homemade.
But now the cameras today are like steady cams.
But they invented this.
And I don't know.
It's just listen, I go to Philly.
I brought my kids to Philly and showed them the stairs.
I remember that kind of, you know, there's landmarks and sites due to that movie.

(01:10:48):
And it's awesome.
It's incredible.
Well, you're invited to go along to our Philly road trip.
We're going to take a little field trip and I'll hit all the spots.
Eat in the Victor Cafe, which Max's and Max's get cheese steaks and visit.
Visit Adrian's grave.
I run up the stairs.
Apparently, yes.

(01:11:08):
There is a real grave that says Adrian Balboa.
Yeah.
Oh, my God.
Yeah, they left it.
We theorize that the robots buried in there.
Yeah, I think I think the robot is really buried the robot.
That's excellent.
Robot never dies.
Last question, Joe, and we'll get you out of here.
Now you don't have to rank all eight that you've seen.

(01:11:31):
But if you had to say maybe your your favorite or two of your favorite Rocky movies or top
three, how about top three?
And then and then which one would you put at the bottom of what you've seen?
You know, that's so hard.
It depends on my mood.
It depends.
Totally.
I'm a gay.
Yep.
I'm a gay.

(01:11:53):
It's the one that's on.
You know, look at all homage to the original Rocky.
That's there.
There is no.
You think like you try to make a sequel to something and they're usually some are good.
Very few are they.
But Rocky 2 is really good.

(01:12:14):
And I love that because there's a little more boxing in Rocky 2 and they fight twice.
And when they both fall back then and he's counting the 10 because the ref counted that
fight and he gets up first like the first Rocky and there is no Rocky without that one.
So you have to say that.
But then it's whatever Rocky's on.

(01:12:35):
I'm watching.
I don't know.
I don't know.
I love that answer.
Yeah, I really don't know how to rank them.
Yeah, that we're we're going to get into that later.
So that's why we wanted to hear you.
But that's also I think you gave the perfect answer.
Yeah, I've always I've often said, you know, like ranking them is so hard because it's
just a matter of how it hits on that day.
You know, sometimes like certain things hit harder than, you know, other days and other

(01:13:01):
movies.
It's wild.
You're exactly right.
They all offer different message and all you combat.
You leave with something where you are in your life to how Rocky applies to it because
it always does.
Well, Joe, we want to thank you so much for your time today.
And this has been awesome.
We've been looking forward to it for several weeks now.

(01:13:22):
So thank you.
Thank you so much.
Thanks so much.
It's fun, man.
I think I'm going to go put it on for the kids.
Awesome.
Yeah, you can do like a clockwork orange and just keep their eyes open.
You'll watch until you learn.
We're watching it in the dark.
I'm tying you down.
No, I'm just kidding.

(01:13:43):
Geez.
It is great.
It's great.
It's metaphorical.
It has so much to do more than boxing.
It's just life in general.
I hope my kids will take from it what I took from it, you know?
Yeah, for sure.
So much insight.
Thank you so much, Joe.
Thanks, Joe.
It's so nice meeting you.
Yeah, I'll see you next time.

(01:14:03):
Great meeting you.
Great meeting you.
Thank you, guys.
Yes, sir.
Take care.
Bye-bye.
Bye-bye.
All right.
Baby Joe Macy, everyone.
That was fantastic.
Again, we want to thank him for coming on.

(01:14:25):
Any thoughts real quick about talking to Joe?
I mean, it's almost like he'd been listening to our podcast all the time.
Right?
Because, I mean, like he really made, you know, condensed everything.
He made great points.
He drove it all in.
Yeah, exactly.
He couldn't have had-
We're going to delete our entire content and just play his interview.
Yeah, just half hour and we're just going to, that's the wrap up, wrap up.

(01:14:46):
I also liked that he liked Five.
He mentioned a lot of Five.
He did mention a lot of Five.
But what he said about Five, I actually agree with.
He was bringing up basically the good points of Five because, like we've talked about it
obviously already, but the problems of Five are more in the-
Execution.
The execution of it, like on paper, in theory, it's not a bad story or it wasn't, it's not

(01:15:12):
that it was a bad idea.
It's the execution, like you said.
Well, even as we were watching it, we were like, you know, it had the possibility to
like really, you know-
We really were trying to, it was like trying to justify your child that kept getting in
trouble.
And there, no, I mean, on the rewatch-
You're a good kid.
I mean, they mean well.
On the rewatch, I mean, I did see some more and, you know, and we'll talk about it in
rankings.

(01:15:33):
It's still not one of my favorites, but still.
Rocky is gonna be Rocky.
Yeah.
In a Rocky.
In every movie.
The only thing that made me mad was his relationship with Robert, and that's why it ranked so low
for me, you know?
Well, again, that was kind of real life shit.
I know.
So, but-
I think we had to be reminded that it's not a boxing movie.
Yeah.

(01:15:54):
It's not a boxing movie.
And Joe reminded us of that.
So I want to move us on to our ranking world, which is going to wind us down for the series.
But before we get into it, to get to ours last, I wanted to bring up a couple of other
things first.
One, I was slow to see the email, but we got a question from friend of the podcast, Peter

(01:16:17):
Camera.
Shout out, Peter.
He had asked if we could basically go back and reveal how Siskel and Ebert, that's Gene
Siskel and Roger Ebert for young people listening.
They used to be the premier movie critics.
They had a show called At the Movies.
But basically, and then Gene Siskel eventually passes, and then they tried to keep the show

(01:16:41):
going with a different guy named Roper, and so was Ebert and Roper.
So anyway.
So he was asking if we could shed light on what they thought as these movies came out
in those moments, how they were feeling about it.
And so I went down the well, Peter, and I did look all this up.
And again, for young people, they used to sum it all up with a thumbs up, thumbs down.

(01:17:06):
So they only technically got to the Rockies.
Roger Ebert had passed before the first Creed movie.
So I just kind of got the gist of their thumbs up, thumbs down.
And then if there's something kind of an interest that they had brought up, then I mentioned
that as well.
Didn't they eventually move to like two thumbs up as well?

(01:17:27):
I mean, no, it was a thumbs up for each.
Yeah, sorry.
So yeah, specify Siskel.
Each one of them got one thumb.
Right.
So you could have one thumb up, one thumb down.
Correct.
Now we got two thumbs.
Normally it was a one thumb up, one thumb down.
They always disagreed with each other.
And one was a good cop, one was a bad cop.

(01:17:48):
I don't remember which one I liked.
You might get reminded.
I think I liked Siskel more than you.
Yeah, original Rocky, two thumbs up.
They both like Rocky as well.
They should have.
Gene Siskel was not as enthusiastic as Roger was saying he didn't think the characters
of Adrian and Polly were believable enough.
Now keep in mind, this is in like 76.

(01:18:10):
So ironically, while reviewing the sequels, he claimed the success of the first film was
because of the love story between Rocky and Adrian.
So he sort of had a change later on.
But in that moment of that first Rocky, that's what he had said.
Rocky two, two thumbs up again.
Ebert documented many of Muhammad Ali's thoughts regarding several of the scenes that stand

(01:18:31):
out.
And of course, being Ali, his thoughts are classic.
And here's some of my favorite Muhammad Ali reactions as he watched Rocky two for the
first time.
So this is what's crazy.
I don't think I wrote it down to illustrate enough.
They watched this together.
Muhammad Ali and Roger Ebert watched Rocky two together.

(01:18:55):
Oh, wow.
So this is all Muhammad Ali commentary.
When Apollo Creed first appears, that's me all right.
Apollo sounds like me insulting the opponent in the press to get him psyched out.
That's me exactly.
When Rocky's trainer Mickey makes Rocky chase chickens to improve his footwork.
That one goes back to the days of Jack Johnson and Joe Lewis chasing chickens.

(01:19:16):
You don't see chickens at a training camp anymore except on the table.
When Rocky's wife slips into a coma following complications from childbirth.
Now he don't feel like fighting because his wife is sick.
That's absolutely the truth.
The same thing happened to me when I was in training camp during one of my divorces.
I didn't look up how many divorces he had.

(01:19:37):
He just says it so casually.
You can't keep your mind on fighting when you're thinking about a woman.
You can't keep your concentration.
You feel like you feel like sleeping all the time.
When Rocky runs through the streets and ends up at the steps of the Philadelphia Museum
of Art, this time with a crowd of children following and cheering on.
Now that's one thing that some people will say is artificial.

(01:19:59):
All the crowds running after him, but that's real.
I had the same kind of crowds follow me in New York.
When Rocky was praying right before his rematch with Apollo Creed.
The most scary moment in a fighter's life is right now.
The moment before the fight in your dressing room, all the training is behind you.
All the advice in the world don't mean a thing.
In the moment you'll be in the ring.

(01:20:19):
Everyone is on the line and you are scared.
So what did Muhammad Ali think of the movie?
Great movie.
Big hit.
The audience, love, violence, emotion, the excitement never dulled.
As far as how the fight turned out.
For the black man to come out superior would be against America's teachings.
I have been so great in boxing.
They have to create an image like Rocky, a white image on the screen to counteract my

(01:20:43):
image in the ring.
America has to have its white images no matter where it gets them.
Jesus, Wonder Woman, Tarzan and Rocky.
What?
I mean, he's not wrong.
I love all his comparisons.
That's my favorite.
That is something that has come up.
There is that whole race thing.

(01:21:06):
It's more blatant than the earlier ones for obvious cultural reasons.
Like Joe said in his interview, he was saying it's a poor man's sport, it's a ghetto sport.
What we didn't talk about is how less accessible it used to be.
There was a time that boxing was still available in high school and things, but it's no longer
there.

(01:21:26):
Now, literally the one way you can go into boxing is through a gym that you force your
way into.
I'm sure all the cliches and tropes are there of like, you ain't got a kid, get out of here.
Then you're hanging around until they're like, all right, can't get rid of this guy.
It's a lost puppy.
Exactly.
Rocky III, two thumbs up still, but now there's more reluctance.

(01:21:48):
They felt the back end of the movie wasn't as strong as the front end.
Gene also felt that the character change in Creed from the first movie wasn't needed and
he could have stayed the same.
Basically he went from his brash, you know, loud spoken thing to this noble character
and Gene was like, eh about it, but they still gave it two thumbs up.

(01:22:09):
They better.
Rocky IV, now we're starting to get into some change.
Siskel, thumbs up.
Loved it even though we all knew how it was going to end.
His only complaint was that he would have liked to have seen more windows into the relationships
of the people around Rocky.
Roger Ebert, thumbs down, hated it.
Thought it was the bottom of the barrel of the Rocky movies.

(01:22:31):
By this point, Rocky V had been announced and he said he would rather watch a Halloween
V than a Rocky V.
How dare you Ebert.
Well I've never liked Ebert.
That was the one.
I had a feeling it would come back to you as we're.
Yeah, yeah.
He had the one, he had the little lips.
Yes, tiny lips, larger man.
And they were like little.
Until he lost all that weight.

(01:22:52):
Little fish lips.
Near the end.
Yeah.
He is a great author though.
I do like his books.
But yeah, his reviews.
So Rocky V, Siskel, thumbs up.

(01:23:12):
Wow.
He found it predictable but enjoyable.
How dare you Siskel.
Oh well, Roger Ebert, thumbs down.
He also found it predictable and he's tired of the repetitiveness that the series has
become.
Hilariously, he also said he was happy the series was done.
And then the last one is kind of weird.

(01:23:34):
So when Rocky Balboa came out in 2006, by this point Gene Siskel had passed, RIP Gene
Siskel, and now they'd moved on to Ebert and Roper.
But what's interesting is that this particular episode of Ebert and Roper, Ebert was absent
from the episode and there was a guest in.
Who was a guest?
About as random as it possibly could have been.

(01:23:56):
Wonder Woman?
Aisha Tyler.
Oh wow.
And I forgot how much I love her.
So I'm watching this little YouTube clip and I mean that woman could be 80 and she's still
amazing.
She's beautiful inside and out.
But anyway, so I should be calling this Tyler and Roper.
But both of them, two thumbs up.

(01:24:19):
They loved it for all the reasons that everyone except Tony and 10 reviewers loved.
I didn't say I hated it.
I had to.
You're the worst.
We'll see where it lands in your rankings.
So Roger Ebert.
You'll see too.
You'll see.
Oh, I'm going to see.
Are you editing?
No, I'm just covering it so you don't see it.

(01:24:41):
So Roger Ebert passed in 2013 and thus he was spared from having to see a Creed movie.
RIP to Ebert as well.
So I want to thank you Peter Cameron for bringing that idea to us because that was a fun little
well to go down.
Especially the Muhammad Ali thing.
So now before we get to our rankings, the one other thing I wanted to go over is I teased

(01:25:03):
it in an earlier episode.
Couldn't tell you which one.
But now I want to share how Stallone ranks his own Rocky series.
So are you all ready for this?
I'm ready.
Totally ready.
It's probably the same as my rankings.
I'm going to give you the order.
I'm going to give the order.
And also he gives an out of 10 for each one.
So he ranks as follows.

(01:25:24):
Rocky 10 out of 10.
Rocky 2, 10 out of 10.
Rocky Balboa, 9 out of 10.
Rocky 3, 9 out of 10.
It was barely edged out.
Rocky 4, 8.5 out of 10.
And last, Rocky 5, 6 out of 10.
6.
I thought you would give it a 1 on it.
Yeah, I'm surprised you gave him 6.

(01:25:44):
I think he's being kind to his own.
And he didn't rank the Creeds and you know, whatever.
So I guess anyone want to comment on Rocky's, I mean, in Stallone's take on his rankings?
No, I think that's fair.
I kind of figured that's where he would go.
So we are almost to the finish line, y'all.

(01:26:08):
It's time for us to reveal our rankings, including the Creed movies, which at least for me, this
is a first.
I never had to put the Creed movies into my prior rankings.
So this is a bit of a challenge.
I was surprised at how much I gave.
Well, you know, it's challenging because it depends how you're thinking about it.

(01:26:28):
And Joe's point, the one that's on TV.
The one that's on TV is the one that's your favorite at the time.
But like, it also is like, well, is it out of how it makes it?
Mine are purely how they make me feel like it's a visceral reaction for me.
It is a visceral ranking.
It's not so much the craft of the movie or anything like that.

(01:26:50):
That came into play for me.
I mean, I had to pick one.
I had to pick a way because there was only I'm on the same page as you.
Yeah.
How it makes me feel.
I don't.
I don't give a shit about anything else.
What I feel inside.
So, I mean, there is a lot of nostalgia being the age that I am that we mostly are like

(01:27:14):
and having had grown up with the Rocky movies.
And I mean, I have definitely seen all of the Rocky movies way more than the Creed movies,
just because I've had more time to watch them.
You know?
So, I mean, I just want to preface that for like how I was looking at it anyway.

(01:27:37):
I mean, like if you were doing the math without knowing details, then it should be in a declining
order of viewing, you know, just because we were around pretty much from the beginning
to the end.
So, of course, you're most likely to have seen it in that order, more or less.
But obviously, the longer it's been around, the more likely we've seen it extra times.

(01:27:59):
For this exercise, like how we've usually been doing, I'd like Justin to go last because
this was his first journey through it all.
I'd actually like Justin to go first.
You want him to go first?
I kind of do.
We can.
Before we go, I just want to do, I was just thinking about the Rocky movies, you know,
because we've been watching them so much.
There's one part in Eddie Murphy's stand up when I think it's raw or something.

(01:28:22):
He's like he's outside the movie theater and this little Italian man comes up to him.
And he's like, oh, you must have been watching the Rocky movies, huh?
Oh, he was a Rocky movie.
He just came out that Rocky movie.
Oh, okay.
Okay, little man.
Oh, it's so funny.
I just think about that all the time.
It just lives in my head.
Oh, you've been watching those Rocky movies.
That's how I've been feeling lately.

(01:28:44):
I'm all spunky.
I'm pretty sure it's raw.
So anyway, Justin, without any further ado.
Pressure's on.
Sure.
I mean, so are we giving any kind of explanation with these?
Let's do the list and then we'll fight after.
Yeah.
Ding.

(01:29:04):
The reason I ask is because I have very simple explanations and the ranking was really easy
for me because I've only seen all of these.
I want to hear your explanations.
Let's do it that way then.
All of these movies only once.
We'll model off of him.
Sounds great.
So it's just one word explanations.
Oh, okay, great.
Even better.

(01:29:25):
All right.
So in order, I have Rocky II music.
Rocky I classic.
Balboa nostalgia.
Rocky III action.
Rocky IV absurdity.

(01:29:49):
Creed I more nostalgia.
Creed II continuing a legacy.
V and III.
You get nothing.
But I do like your one word summations.
Not necessarily the order, but I do agree with boiling it down how you did.

(01:30:10):
I agree with all that.
He's had time to think of his one words.
I can't think of just one word right now.
We don't have to carve it out.
Okay, thank you.
Oh my God, panic.
But if there's a reason that you feel you need to justify why you move something up,
move something down or something like that, I think that's worth.

(01:30:31):
So you want to go next, Toni or Heather?
I'll go.
First is Rocky.
I mean, because like Joe said, nothing ever happens without it.
So I mean, and it's just fantastic movie.
My second is Rocky Balboa.
And mostly, I mean, it really the monologues in it.

(01:30:55):
It's so inspiring.
It just is such a great end cap or what we thought would be an end cap to and kind of
still is a Rocky Rocky Balboa end cap anyway, before we get into the Creeds.
Rocky III is number three for me.
And it was really hard.
Rocky Balboa and Rocky III really flip flop a lot, depending on the day.

(01:31:21):
But yeah, I mean, the relationship between Apollo and Rocky and of course, Mr. T and
I mean, fantastic.
But most of this all boils down to inspiration for me, like, which one made me how it made
me feel and the feeling that I want to come out is just being inspired to just like kick

(01:31:42):
ass in life, you know, like, so anyway.
Rocky IV, it has a lot to do with nostalgia for me.
I mean, that was I was probably not quite a teenager at that point.
And I remember seeing that in the movie theater.
And you know, I mean, again, inspiration.

(01:32:02):
Amazing.
This is where y'all are going to start to get mad at me probably.
After Rocky IV is Creed II.
I love the Drago story.
I want more of that.
I really love the way we got to see the behind the scenes of that.

(01:32:22):
That end arc for Ivan Drago is so much better than the theoretical aids.
Oh, God.
Yeah, no, I mean, I really feel like Creed II, like they that there's no way that they
would have been able to end that movie any other way or that fight at least and any other
way.
It was perfectly done.
I thought it was amazing.

(01:32:43):
Creed I comes after that.
And I mean, I like how they introduced the whole thing.
I mean, again, I kind of want more of what we just talked about the whole Creed series.
Like I want, you know, the characterizations get more complex.
But like we said, they kind of muddy it up a little bit.

(01:33:04):
Little more clarification.
Then I have Rocky II.
Great movie, great sequel.
I get it, but still not up in my top.
I guess he kind of he kind of had to win that second fight with Apollo.
So I mean, you kind of expected that.
Yeah.
Then we have Rocky V and I'm sorry, but Creed III, my least favorite.

(01:33:28):
And you ended the same, right?
Five then three.
I said five then three.
Yeah.
You want me to go next, Tony?
Or you want to go?
You can go.
All right.
Rochambeau.
So I'm realizing as we're revealing these, I think because I'm going to agree with y'all
as far as like the first seven that it's when I rank these, a lot of these, this is like

(01:33:53):
ranking a seven out of ten and across to a ten out of ten.
Like they're all very relative, like, you know, for these seven.
So I have the original Rocky at one.
I moved up Rocky Balboa to my two spot.
That was a tough, tough decision.
Rocky IV still held the child nostalgia in for me as we talked about that, you know,

(01:34:19):
the slight difference in our ages, I think is y3 and y4.
But then after that, I do love Rocky II as a sequel, even though it's predictable, it
was kind of just it's your natural sequel that you see.
And there's comfort in that for me.
Rocky III, I put after that.

(01:34:40):
And again, this is all relative because I like all those movies.
And then I put Creed II because I do think it's the strongest of the three Creeds.
Creed I, I still like it did establish a new era, even though as we've talked about, I
wish it could have been a little bit more better constructed.
And then I end the same.

(01:35:00):
Rocky V, Creed III, last.
We were almost exactly the same in our rankings today.
I know.
Did you do Rocky V, Creed III?
Yes.
Yeah.
Okay.
So everybody's doing Rocky V, Creed III.
Okay, cool.
That's why I'm realizing after they had said theirs, I was like, oh, I'm noticing that
like we're agreeing on the bottom, but the other seven, it's kind of what's the inner

(01:35:23):
child.
That's how you're feeling.
Because they're good.
I mean, seven out of nine is not a bad record on anything.
You know?
No.
I guess mine, mine, no secret.
Rocky III is my number one.
Fair.
It's something about that movie.
It's the music.
It's the eye of the tiger.
It's Apollo training Rocky.

(01:35:44):
It's that relationship.
It's like what I said in that podcast.
It's the Thighs.
Huh?
Mighty man thighs.
Mighty man thighs.
Other than that, it's the Empire Strikes Back of the, of the Rocky movies.
All this happens.
Mickey dies.
Mr. T talks shit to Adrian.
Like, I mean, all the Apollo and Rocky become best friends forever.

(01:36:08):
That development is the best part of the movie for sure.
It's so good.
It's just so good.
All right.
Well, the next is Rocky IV for me.
I just love Rocky IV.
Those two, it's hard.
Those two, I kind of put them in the same line.
Rocky III, Rocky IV.
It's interesting because that's the peak camp of it too, that you have.
I love the camp.
The camp's my favorite.
Right.

(01:36:28):
I'm mad at the camp.
Rocky is my third favorite.
It's original.
Rocky Balboa is my fourth favorite.
Right.
Suckers.
Because it's sweet.
Yes.
And I got to say, it's one of the best fights in the whole franchise at the very end.
I really enjoyed that fight, watching it again.

(01:36:49):
Yeah.
Crazy D.
After that, I think we're all kind of the same with Creed II.
I think Creed II over Rocky II for myself.
Same.
I really like that training montage in New Mexico, in the desert.
I don't know.
That's right.
That's really hot.
It's really cool.
It's just a really nice take on it.

(01:37:09):
It reminds me of Rocky IV and kind of Rocky III.
Then Rocky II, Apollo Strong.
He's not as much of the lovable Apollo that we see in Rocky III.
He is a very determined Apollo.
Very determined Apollo.
Then after Rocky II is Creed.
Like you said, Jed, start of the new era.

(01:37:30):
Then Rocky V and Creed III.
I think we all ended on the same.
What I take from that is that there's seven movies worth watching, no matter which way
you want to put them.
There's two that just sort of have to be there to carry other things on.
I still think they're worth watching.
They are worth watching.

(01:37:51):
I did not.
Even though Creed III is at the bottom of my list, I did not hate the movie.
I did not enjoy watching it.
I did hate it the first time and I had to rewatch it to calm myself down and look for
positives.
You really did have a very intense reaction.
Next time just watch an Eden edible, enjoy yourself.
Yeah, settle down.
Guys, I don't know why you all are such a flurry of hate.

(01:38:13):
I was so wrong.
I need to re-change my ranking.
It is amazing.
Creed III is number one in my book.
I like when he goes, mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
So that brings us now to our close.
It's been a lovely, lovely journey.
I just want to thank you all, you three, and also listeners for coming along on this journey.

(01:38:35):
Thanks to Baby Joe Macy and Justin specifically.
Is your life forever changed now?
Oh yeah.
Oh yeah.
I'm going to be, this is a, be at least a once a year watch for me, the entire series.
Oh, I love it.
I love it.
Ding, ding.
One thing I really do want to say that anybody who has joined us for this podcast listening,

(01:39:01):
they are, everybody that I've talked to is like, it makes me want to go back and watch
the Rocky movies.
And yeah, we highly suggest that.
Please do.
And we hope you can love them and find inspiration in them as much as we have.
Yeah, if you need motivation, go watch a Rocky movie.
Make Bill Conti be your alarm clock in the morning.

(01:39:24):
It will change your life.
It does change your life.
Anything new to coming up with you, Jed?
What do you mean?
I don't know anything new.
Well, I am cautiously optimistic about Creed 4 just because Rocky Balboa exists so I can

(01:39:44):
always have hope.
You know, that's exactly what I said.
I'm like, it's gotta be.
It's gotta be.
But yeah, any final thoughts before we get out of here?
And other than that, I just have a programming note about our...
No, but I'm gonna just watch some Rocky movies just for fun now.
I mean, I don't know if I can really go too long without doing it anymore.

(01:40:07):
I'm not tired of them.
Put it that way.
I kind of want to go back and watch Rocky again today.
I don't know.
I'm sad that it's over.
I know, I'm sad.
I don't have...
Now I, you know, I had an excuse to watch them over and over and now I don't have that
excuse anymore.
If you haven't done it, and this is for anyone listening as well, you can go on YouTube and

(01:40:28):
you can watch all the training montages in order.
Oh my.
And sometimes, if you don't have time to watch a whole movie, it's not a bad thing to turn
on.
Oh, I like it.
Start your morning with the montage.
Make your coffee, turn on the montage, go to work.
I mean, sounds like a plan.
Full circle from Team America.

(01:40:49):
Every Rocky has a montage.
Well, are we going to reconvene after watching Creed 4 when it comes out?
We should, huh?
Yeah, we could do that as like a one-off callback.
Reunion.
Yeah, a one-off callback.
Reunion.
Pretend we haven't seen each other in that entire time.
Oh my God, like you have a beard now.
You're so long.
You cut your hair shorter.

(01:41:12):
So thank you everyone.
And just a little program note, we will be taking a little hiatus before returning to
season two of the regular show.
But don't go too far because season two of the Film Folklore podcast is right around
the corner.
And if you get bored in the meantime, Zoe here has some ideas for you.
One, two, better not soup.
We want to hear from you, the audience.

(01:41:34):
Do you have a behind the scenes story?
Maybe you work in the industry or maybe you had a run in with production.
You know, you live in New Orleans, New York, whatever, and some PA stopped you on the
way to work and it was annoying.
We want to hear about it.
We want to hear about all of it.
We love all the stories.
You can text us and maybe we'll read it on the show.
Or maybe you just want to tell us that you love us or you really hate us and you want
to fact check us because we're wrong about a lot of things.

(01:41:57):
You can troll us.
Whatever you want to do.
You might even want to guess where Joe or Chris are on any given day of the week.
You can do that by emailing us at filmfolklorepodcast.gmail.com.
Film Folklore Podcast at gmail.com.
We do indeed want to hear from you.
You can also find us on the social media.
Instagram is Film Folklore Podcast.

(01:42:20):
Facebook group is Film Folklore.
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And don't forget to subscribe, rate, and review us.
We really want to hear from you.
It's very important to us.
Again, we work in the entertainment business, so we need a lot of validation.
We're very pathetic, sad people and we just, we really want to be reviewed.

(01:42:40):
We want to know your honest opinion.
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(01:43:00):
Money helps us do more fun things and we want to entertain you.
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