February 8, 2025 • 53 mins
Well, well, well, what do we have here? Why, our long teased new segment has arrived! And what better way to segue us from “Rust” to this other than with 1994 goth action classic“The Crow”. Today we are covering the tragic death of Brandon Lee on set. Join us as we discuss, what happened, what could’ve prevented it, and what it changed for the future of the entertainment industry. Zoe says, “Don’t be a crow show, and not listen!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Hello film friends, friends of film and everyone in between. Welcome to the Film Folklore Podcast.
(00:16):
I am Jed Props and I am joined today by Justin Sound.
Hello.
And Zoe Props.
Hello.
Chris could not be here. This is a totally different recording time from last week's
episode when Chris just once again couldn't make it. Where is Chris?
Chris has had a crazy like Falsie Towers series of events. He stubbed his toe and then he
(00:40):
fell onto a chair and then was catapulted out the window where he then fell into more
manure. Can you believe it?
Two weeks in a row.
He's got the full cast on his body. You know what I mean? Where all their arms are up and
they only have holes in their mouth, nose and eyes.
(01:00):
I can only hope that next week he doesn't complete the manure trifecta.
You never know. You never know.
We'll know if he doesn't make it.
So yeah, poor bastard.
Sorry, what were you going to say Justin?
Pray for Chris.
Is he getting in different kinds of manure?
I don't know. I don't know if this has just been like a big pile outside of his house
(01:20):
for the last week that has not been moved or different.
Right.
It's like a cow field.
Yeah.
Or there's technically just a pile of fertilizer.
Right.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I see.
It's kind of thing.
Just trying to find him.
Yeah.
So I'm excited because we're starting our new series today that we had alluded to at the
(01:43):
closing of Rust. I'm still not 100% satisfied with the title. Right now I'm just calling
it Safety On Set, but we'll try to come up with something better. I should have polled
y'all. That's what I should have done.
Yeah. You should have.
Yeah. Well, I don't know. If this releases and it's got something better, then you'll
know we figured it out.
(02:03):
It might be the acronym that's throwing it off.
Yeah.
Yeah, that's true. Why is everybody thinking I need help?
So I don't know a better way to make the segue happen than to cover what we're going to do
today. And that is the 1994 Brandon Lee tragedy. That is the Crow. And we talked a little bit
(02:30):
before we started the show, but have y'all seen the Crow?
No.
Not shocking. And Justin, you said you had seen it.
I have seen it. It's probably been at least 15 years.
Yeah. I just watched it yesterday while I was finishing up this episode. And it brought
(02:52):
back a lot of nostalgia. I was 15 when this movie came out. I loved the soundtrack at
the time. It was very of the era. And Brandon Lee was kind of an up and comer. There was
a movie called Ricochet. It was an action movie I remember enjoying. I don't know how
(03:14):
it holds up, but anything about the tragedy that occurred with the shooting of the movie?
Yeah, I know that happened. I think it was something like the gun wasn't cleaned and
there was still shit in there and he got shot in the face or something like that. Sorry,
this is like what I...
No, no, no. That's exactly what I wanted you to say because I want to go off of memory
(03:38):
and what we had heard before we get into the...
Yeah, I know that it's a goth cult classic and there wasn't a bullet in, but there was
pieces or something because it wasn't cleaned properly. It's what I know or what I believe
to be true.
Okay. And Justin?
Well, growing up, I always heard it was a murder. I always believed that too growing
(04:07):
up just because I didn't really hear anything else and I didn't know anything about how
something like that is supposed to go down. I think I did eventually when I get older,
probably more skeptically read or hear that it was more along the lines of a mistake made
(04:30):
with the actual process such as something not getting cleaned properly. Maybe I heard
something along the lines of it was a blank, but shrapnel still flew far enough to where
it...
Yeah. And I had heard similar as well because this, especially in props, this is one of
(04:55):
those almost like, I guess I would call it like a departmental bedtime story of sorts
where it's like a tale of morals kind of thing, like a cautionary tale. That's what I'm trying
to say. And I had always heard similar things. I had heard that the guns were being passed
(05:17):
off between units and they weren't getting properly cleaned and that there was some debris
that turned into a projectile that ended up killing him, I think is more or less the way
that I had heard it.
Yeah.
And that's what moves to all of this, which is why we all have heard similar things. And
kind of like anything else, the moment... I mean, this happens to me practically everything
(05:41):
I research on this is that I realize, oh, I was A, wrong, B, telling wrong information.
And that's kind of the game of telephone that a lot of this stuff becomes. And maybe it's
just a good lesson for anybody that maybe fact check yourself before you go rampantly
(06:02):
talking about something as fact.
Tricky check yourself.
Because we know...
Before you wreck yourself, yeah.
Thank you. So, wait, how old are you?
17.
So, we're going to get into it. And I wish Chris was here because again, this is not only
(06:30):
a good, you know, to have an 80s opinion, but there's so much that parallels from this
to almost 30 years later to the Russ tragedy. And you all will see it when we get into it.
But what better place to start than the beginning? So, we'll start there. So, a brief background
(06:50):
on The Crow. If you've never seen it, it's a sort of goth superhero R rated revenge story
set in Detroit beginning on Devil's Night, which I had never heard of Devil's Night until
I saw The Crow as a teenager. Did you all know or do you know what Devil's Night is?
(07:11):
October 1st or what is that? I have no idea.
It's basically, I believe it's the night before Halloween. And I don't know, and anyone feel
free to write or use our call in number we don't have. But it's either a Detroit specific
(07:32):
thing or there is some kind of specific holiday lore to it or something in the past. That
part I don't know and I didn't bother to look up. But Detroit specifically had a bad reputation
on Devil's Night of actually committing vandalism and arson and things like that. It was basically
an excuse for assholes to go fuck up the city. Cool. Yeah, great. Yeah. They were probably
(07:57):
all 16. But it's like the purge. Yeah, it's like the purge, but not directed towards people.
Yeah. Property. Yeah, exactly. So a little fun trivia on that later. So just put a pin
in it. But the idea is that Brandon Lee stars as a rocker musician named Eric Draven, who
(08:24):
returns to his apartment one evening, such as Devil's Night, to find his fiance brutally
attacked by a local gang and they are subsequently both murdered. A year later, he is summoned
from the dead, given powers, exacts revenge, hijinks and sue, Bob's your uncle. So that's
what The Crow is in a nutshell. It's originally based off of a comic book. Now is a franchise.
(08:50):
There's multiple iterations of it. I haven't seen the newest one, but if it's anything
like all the other sequels and revamps, they're not good. I do have a soft spot for the original,
but yeah, it was a diminishing return on the anyways. So producer Jeff Most is his name.
(09:13):
Producer Jeff Most discovered James O'Barr's comic, The Crow, and immediately was enamored
with the story. He got O'Barr on board and the project was underway. Brandon Lee, son
of martial arts legend Bruce Lee, if you all hadn't figured that one out, was tapped to
play the lead. You could say that Brandon was a bit of an up and comer because he was
(09:33):
starting to see a good momentum of success in the early nineties. I had mentioned Ricochet
was a action movie I remember enjoying that he was in. And he was only 28 years old when
he would go on to star in what is his biggest and most successful production to date. And
unfortunately he would not be alive to see it to fruition. So another thing I didn't
(09:58):
know, the production was in Wilmington, North Carolina, which we have talked about for its
nineties hay days. And interestingly, I mean, our department did a great job. I thought
it was in Detroit, so good job on them. We've mentioned it before, but Wilmington being
the hotbed of filming that was in the nineties, that's pre-incentive world. I kind of feel
(10:23):
like that's a, maybe I could do a whole episode on Wilmington maybe. You know, we'll look
into it, we'll see. But as far as the shoot goes, it had been a good shoot. They were
almost done. They were 52 days in on a 60 day shoot. And by all accounts I read Brandon
(10:44):
was a delight to work with. He was young, passionate, very dedicated to the shoot. He
was friendly with the crew. He was accommodating to production. You just, by everything I read
and have heard, he seemed like a genuinely good guy, which is why he had to die because
good people get killed anyway. I'm kidding. But as we all know, assholes don't die. But
(11:13):
if you would look, Zoe, in this next little thing, I found a snippet where the producer,
Jeff Moos, reflects on working with Brandon.
Okay. So this is what Moos says about Brandon. He exemplified all those beautiful qualities
in an individual. He was smart. He was intuitive. He was so masterful about understanding himself
(11:35):
in relation to this role and what he wanted to bring to it and literally throwing out
all of his training in martial arts, which was significant and tremendous. He wanted
to create his own language of movement because he understood this character. This was not
a martial artist. He's a musician. He's a guy who has never probably gotten into a fight
in his life. And yet he comes back with this tremendous power and a mission. Brandon tried
(11:55):
to envision a mental approach to how he could create this individual who at once has to
do these horrible things. And yet it's the furthest thing from anything that would have
been in the persona of the character while they were alive. It was an incredible, artful
and intentionally thought out performance. That's what is so resonant with people today.
(12:16):
Moos remembers Moos being, Jeff Moos remembers how each day Brandon Lee would wake up at
5.30 AM, starve himself and work out. Given the character, Lee insisted on learning how
to play the guitar. So Jeff Moos found a teacher for him in Wilmington. You couldn't throw
more things at the man and he took it all in like a sponge. Aw, Brandon Lee. I didn't
(12:40):
really say that was Bruce Lee's son. No idea. That's sad.
Is why I guess we technically weren't recording when Justin said that, but that's where the,
or wait, no, we were on there with the conspiracy part of it. Because when Bruce Lee died, there
(13:04):
was a lot of conspiracy theory that it wasn't an accident that someone had had foul play
was involved. So part of Brandon's tragic death on set kind of reignited that whole
conspiracy theory world, which is why you get sort of around two of it. Or if it, if
(13:27):
not conspiracy, just curse talk, you know, that the Lee family is cursed. So all of that,
I love a good curse. Yeah, who doesn't?
The Lees don't.
Fair enough. Very fair. Very fair point. Yeah, it just brought all that back up to the surface
(13:53):
20 whatever years later. So what happened? Let's get into it. The most important thing,
and again, why it would have been great to have Chris with us. The most important fact
about this tragedy is what it changed in our industry all the way to the present, essentially,
and Russ specifically, which is fascinating, as you're going to see. So as I had already
(14:19):
said, 52 days into shooting on March 31 1993, they were shooting the flashback assault scenes.
Michael Massey, I hope I'm pronouncing that correctly, Massey. He's the actor who played
the character Fun Boy, one of the gang members, he was given the prop gun for the scene. I'm
(14:42):
not sure what the original plan was for the scene. Like, basically, I was finding out
from a few different sources that they had something different planned. And for whatever
reason it got changed. Like Fun Boy wasn't supposed to be one of the shooters originally.
So what's kind of interesting is that whatever led them to make the change or whatever, and
(15:06):
then having the conversation with the actor and saying, like, are you comfortable doing
this thing? He's like, yeah, I'm sure you said something along the lines of what do
you need me to do? Something like that. And then for this to end the way it did, it's
like, oh my God, the poor guy, or what about the other guy that was supposed to be the...
So a lot of happenstance in there. But he was given the gun. When Eric Draven, Brandon's
(15:37):
character, when he comes into the apartment, he's holding a bag of groceries. And the effects
department had put a squib in the prop bag of groceries. And Justin, do you want to talk
about a squib for a second? Sure. I mean, as much as I can. It's, I mean...
(15:59):
Well, part of it ties into sound if you're talking wires and stuff, right? Yeah. Yeah.
So there's a little crossover there. Yeah. I mean, it's a device that essentially explodes.
I mean, that's a strong word, I guess. It's a pop, I guess. Yeah. It pops open. And sometimes
(16:20):
excretes blood-like liquid. So if you, to your point, if you are, maybe you're doing
an action movie and a classic eighties action, and you think of like a guy's got a machine
gun and he shoots multiple people, you see that blood coming off of all the people getting
(16:41):
shot. Those are squibs popping off. And with the little charge, it will be like a little
bag of blood. So when the charge goes off, it's making that blood come out being the
liquid that you were just referring to for that. But squibs by effects have multiple
purposes and it's a very useful item that can do different things. But a lot of times
(17:01):
it's simulating that projectile of a gun that's not there. And so in this case, it's the bag
of groceries is popping off to give the simulation as if the bullet went through the bag of groceries
to hit him. So that's the idea at least. And yes, we don't like when our microphones are
(17:25):
close to these things. I would imagine not. Because it's loud. Because it's loud. Because
it's loud. I guess it'd be kind of situational, but do you try, if they're switching to squib,
do y'all go like, well, maybe we want to boom this if we can or something. Yeah. Just to
(17:45):
try to get the wires away from. Oh yeah. Yeah. A lot of times. And you know, I mean, if it's
a squib that's not close to a wire, then we'll just, we'll keep it on and just turn it down.
Turn it. Right. Exactly. So I didn't realize that dummy rounds didn't officially exist
(18:07):
yet in 1994. That was one of the things I learned on this. So, which I'm now curious
what they were doing before this. And I don't think it was necessarily what they did to
make the dummy rounds. But essentially it is a little shocking when I was reading this.
But as just a quick refresher, dummy rounds are the bullet rounds that look exactly like
(18:35):
real ammo, but they're hollow on the inside. They just put a couple of BBs inside. So when
we shake them, we hear the rattle. That's how we know it's a dummy round. But otherwise
the primer has been spent on the back. They look like a real bullet in every other way.
And we use those for purposes of when we need to see ammo on set. But, you know, let's say,
(19:00):
for example, maybe someone's wearing a bandolier, you know, so you can put a bunch of dummy
rounds in it. So, you know, it's safe, but it also looks like they got an ammo belt.
Or maybe they're loading or unloading a magazine. You know, there's situations where you want
to have these dummy rounds, but also be safe and keep anything that has actual gunpowder
in it far away from the actor. So what they did on this show, which is interesting, there's
(19:29):
an effects technician named Bruce Merlin, and he was assisted by Daniel Kuttner, who
is the prop master. They were dismantling live rounds, removing the bullet. So it's
just like the shell casing, dumping the gunpowder, hitting the primer, you know, spinning it,
and then reassembling it back together. So basically a homemade dummy is what they were
(19:53):
putting together.
And you know, I would need to talk to somebody a little older than me that was in the industry
in the early 90s and before that maybe could speak a little better to it. But I was just
surprised that, I mean, already at this point in the 90s, you would think something like
(20:16):
this would already exist or be standard, but apparently not. Because why else would they
be doing it? So this is where these episodes for us are a little bit like crime junkies,
if anyone ever listens to crime junkies. I'm just going off of what I can find on the internet.
(20:40):
So we talked a little bit about how we had heard different versions of the stories. I
had heard that they were shooting in two different units, which I wasn't able to find anything
that confirmed that. All I could find was that the gun was used earlier in the day in
a different scene. And in whatever scene they were doing earlier in the day, they were putting
(21:06):
dummy rounds into the gun. And at some point, while that weapon had the homemade dummy rounds
in it, a trigger must have been pulled or something because the determination was that
(21:26):
one of these homemade rounds, the primer maybe wasn't, the primer was still active and there
was enough residual gunpowder to push the bullet forward a little bit. So basically
it got into the barrel of the gun. Now, for example, when you were mentioning shrapnel
(21:47):
and things like that, there is a little bit of confusion as far as what was lodged in
the barrel. So it might have been remnants of that, or it could have been the whole thing.
There's not a lot of clarity on that. But what's interesting about this period of time
in our industry, we didn't do weapon clearance at this time. So this movie is the reason
(22:12):
why we put flashlights in barrels to show that the barrel's clear and what all of our
protocols come from this movie, which I sort of knew, but kind of deep diving into this,
it was more of a confirmation. So what's interesting is that if you want to say something positive
from this tragedy, it's that our safety protocols sort of got cemented and how can I say, they
(22:35):
got streamlined across the industry. So didn't matter what show you're on and what state
or whatever, you're still going through the same safety protocols. And when this gun gets
to set, it is now being loaded with our regular flash ammo, our flash bangs, or not flash
(22:59):
bangs, what am I talking about? Anyway, but I'm assuming because it was an interior shot
in kind of a tight space, they probably were using a quarter load. They might've been using
a half load at most. And that normally harmless round, it's harmless because it doesn't have
(23:24):
a projectile. The bullets been removed, the tips are crimped and it's just for the purpose
of the bang or the flash of the muzzle flash coming out. So what happens in this situation
is that that normally harmless load became the catalyst to fire what's now a projectile
(23:47):
of what was lodged in the barrel of the gun. So when the actor, Michael Massey, when he
fires what's emitting from the gun is more or less a projectile. And so it hits him in
his right abdomen and the squib goes off on the grocery bag and they say cut and everything
(24:14):
seems like it went really well because he went to the ground like he's supposed to and
the squib goes off. They look great. He acted like he got shot. Yeah. It was the stunt coordinator
who was the first to say, Hey, something's not right. When he realizes A is not getting
up and B he's noticing he had labored breathing. And at first they couldn't see anything obvious
(24:40):
and there was no blood that was obvious. So they're like, maybe the squib did something
because it's right next to them. They're not thinking that the gun did something because
that was like 20 feet away. So they're trying to figure out like what's going on, what's
going on as they are kind of getting the costume off and everything. Now they're seeing the
(25:00):
blood. Now they're realizing, Oh shit, you know, so ambulance is coming, you know, he's
going to the hospital. They worked on him throughout the night, I believe. And I want
to say around one something in the afternoon, the next day he passed. The, the projectile
(25:21):
had done a way more damage than what was originally assumed. It went in his side, it spun a loop,
like a, like a loop de loop. And then eventually it lodges in his spine and that's after it
had cut two arteries and it had hit some major organs. So I'm not sure even if, even if the
(25:48):
accident happened in a hospital next to an operating table, if it would have, you know,
if they would have been able to save him. And, and it's a, you know, there's no other
way to say it than it's a tragedy. It's, it's something that, you know, obviously we make
movies, we're meant to entertain. You don't want these kinds of things to happen. And
(26:10):
tragedies are just a reality that happens sometimes. With this particular case, because
it was sort of unprecedented, it's why we now had all these safety protocols and things
put into place. It's not going to be shocking to anyone, but it also was sort of the end
(26:37):
for a lot of people that worked on it, including the actor, Michael Massey barely acted again
after this. And he, there was an interview with, he actually passed away in 2015. He
was only 61. But he, in an interview reflecting on this, he said, you know, it's not really
(26:57):
something you ever get over. And it's like, no, I imagine not. He probably had gotten
friendly with Brandon and everything like that. And I mean, you can only imagine.
Sure. Yeah. It's not like he's a cop or something like sees this all the time as an actor.
I pretend to kill.
Yeah. Yeah. You know, I'm not, but, you know, I mean, just really shocking, I think for,
(27:19):
for those involved and getting into a little bit about, you know, and well, actually, first
I'll say that the Wilmington police did an investigation and even though no charges were
filed, it was ultimately declared an accident due to negligence. And they just kind of left
it at that. One thing that's interesting about that is you fast forward all the way to rust
(27:43):
and the same determination has happened, but they are out for, for culpability. They want
a guilty party where in this situation they're going, it's a horrible tragedy. It's nobody's
fault specifically.
Do better.
Do better. But to put a little bit of onus on something, it's, I'm going to put it on
(28:08):
the production itself because we encountered this more often than we should, but you know,
we can get swept up in the demands of the project. It can be combined that those demands
can be combined with a lack of maybe time, maybe pressure to be ready by a certain time.
(28:28):
And now you're rushing to get to that readiness. There could be a lack of safety protocols,
but all these things are what led to that accident. It's not that anyone was neglecting
their own job as so much as it was, this is going at a fast pace. Every time I've ever
heard this story, it was, it was very go, go, go. It was very fast pace. Guns are exchanging
(28:53):
hands. You know, you need communication, you need safety things. One thing that was interesting
about this, I couldn't find where there was like a specifically an armorer. And I did
find that there was, I think his name was James. I put it further down. It was, where
(29:15):
is he at? They had a, yeah, here it is. The company had hired a freelance firearms consultant
which I've never heard of that like consulting title. But maybe that's an older world of
safety rules that have altered because of this show. I mean, nowadays the armor is always
(29:37):
present when there's gunplay. It's just a mandatory thing. And if you're ever on a show
that they're trying to say, no, we don't need it. You always argue. Yes, we do. And unfortunately
slash fortunately we can point to things like this and say, this is why we need this. But
(29:57):
one thing that's just a random aside about that guy, the freelance firearms consultant,
he had been dismissed earlier that day on that particular day of the shooting because
they had declared it a routine gun scene. So we won't need you. Now, what did he do
exactly as a consultant? I don't know. Could he have done something differently? I don't
(30:23):
know.
Yeah, looked in the gun, I guess.
A lot of speculation. So the studio and the producers found creative ways to ultimately
finish the movie. They, you know, they, after the tragedy, they, they went down for several
days while they kind of regrouped and, and kind of reassessed everything, but they did
(30:45):
ultimately finish the movie and it was a success. It's not something we're going to go into,
but it is worth going into if you're, if you're curious, it is very interesting what they
did with the technology at the time to complete the movie. Another fun random aside is his
stunt man, Chad Stalewski. I'll see it when I read it. Anyway, that stunt man or his stunt
(31:14):
double, I mean, he is who went on to finish the movie basically as Eric Dravens. They
were cheating with him. They were using certain repeating shots, flipping images, you know,
cutting and pasting essentially with 1990s tech. But that, that stunt double, he goes
(31:36):
on to eventually be the director of the John Wick movies. So I thought that was kind of
an interesting, and they're very, the John Wick movies are very clear about not having
real weapons on the set. You know, they, they work around it. They use the fake VF, VFX
muzzle flashes and stuff. And eventually everything looks great in those. Yeah. John Wick rules.
(31:57):
And I'm glad you said that because I was just about to say, as technology improves, using
real guns will eventually be a moot point. And where we are right now, kind of to the
point of what Justin just said, John Wick has a lot of money. So with a lot of money,
(32:21):
you can afford good VFX where you see the need for live fire is where maybe you don't
have money for VFX and you don't want it to look cheesy. Yeah. I always think of the,
like a TV show where they, they say it's a house fire, but it's very clear that the flames
(32:42):
have been superimposed onto a very okay house. It looks so bad, but, but this is a thing
as technology improves, it'll sort of solve the safety issue altogether on its own. Now
in the case of rust, you still have the mystery of how real ammo got on a film set to begin
with. That's a whole other can of worms. But with this, we are heading in that direction.
(33:06):
So I think it is a good thing and eventually it will be, you know, where maybe a TV series
or a lower budget movie will be able to have the capability to replicate like a bigger
budget show, like a John Wick could. So the safety protocols that were put into place
(33:31):
after this have had almost 30 years of more or less being successful in preventing accidents.
There's very few accidents that are this level of tragedy. And, and again, it's because some
protocol wasn't followed or some kind of stuff. And, and those are, some of those we'll get
(33:52):
into on future episodes. But for this, I mean, that's just, again, why the rush shooting
was so avoidable because, you know, I mean, you had to violate so many things to get to
that tragedy. And kind of getting us into a wrap up here. I know that, that we and other
(34:13):
people have described the rush shooting as a perfect storm. Do you all feel that this
was a perfect storm or do you feel that, you know, this is truly just an accident at its
core? I mean, there's certainly ways to go about looking at it.
I mean, the rust thing is a totally different thing. This sounds like 14 violations in one.
(34:36):
Yeah. I mean, also rust, you know, that happened, what, just a few years ago, maybe, maybe between
2020, 23, something like that. I can't really remember.
It's been longer than we think. It was like 21 now.
Okay. Yeah. So it's been a few years, all the right protocols were in place. This it's
(34:56):
like, okay, 1993. That sounds like that's just how they did it. And yeah, it was, you
know, it was an accident. It doesn't sound like there was a protocol of like, I mean,
gosh, you know, we work, we'll have this fake ass gun that can't shoot a gun and crew asks
us to look down the barrel or, you know, whatever. It doesn't sound like any of that was in place.
(35:22):
No. You know, that I'm like, yeah, it just sounds
like a kind of horrible fucked up thing that-
Because there weren't rampant accidents. Yeah. There weren't rampant accidents happening
before this even. Yeah.
It's not like you go to the 80s, 70s or 60s or something like that and you're hearing
about like widespread- Sure. It's like a common thing. That just
happens. Yeah. So, you know, it really does feel like
(35:45):
it was just a very unfortunate accident. And, you know, until we can actually interview
somebody that was there, you know, I think this is as close as we can get to try to see,
you know, what was avoidable and what wasn't for the time period. You know, and I say that
in the sense of like, if the protocols aren't there, then it's not necessarily avoidable.
(36:08):
Yeah. You know, it happened because this wasn't there.
So I would be curious, like what was considered the safety of the time. That would be kind
of interesting. Yeah.
I'm wondering what this this firearms consultant was.
Yeah. What do they do? I mean, I'd be willing to bet that, you know, I mean, he might have
(36:32):
been blowing some whistles and they were like, yeah, you can go home for today.
Which wouldn't be the first time I've seen a-
Oh, sure. You know what I mean?
Especially whenever you hear the term tech consultant, which is not exactly what this
person may have been, but oftentimes a tech consultant like Zoe on NCIS, we always had
like a military, you know, it was a Coast Guard or Navy. Yeah. And so that's our tech
(36:56):
consultant and using NCIS actually as an example, you know, that person doing their job, their
job is to say, the Navy wouldn't do this in this situation. And then-
Right. It's really more about like lingo and how they stand or greet each other. There's
kind of just like-
The consultant is supposed to be helping you bring the realism to you. The problem is,
(37:20):
that you're on a network procedural like NCIS New Orleans and they don't care that much.
And so I always felt bad for the consultants because a lot of times they'd be like, yeah,
that's great. Okay, let's do what we're going to do anyway. And then you're like, well,
wait, why do you have the consultant here? Because now you're making him look bad.
(37:41):
You're still here. You can go home, man.
Yeah. Whatever. He's getting paid for the day.
We got the notes. We got the notes. Boats have things on them. Great. Okay.
That boat should be in water.
Yeah. Boats are on the water, not land. Got it.
Yeah. Clean the gun. I got it.
So I mean, that's a fair question to ask. I mean, I don't know if freelance firearms
(38:05):
consultant is the term for armor before we were saying armor, you know, or is this a
guy sitting at Village in a chair just going like, yep, that's a gun.
Yeah. Yeah. I'll be in the bathroom.
But no, you're holding it upside down.
Yeah. Yeah. It's a fair question. So Justin, I had a thing here for you to read because
(38:32):
I thought this was interesting as well. This is another aside as far as now the only account
I could find was from his co-star as Chris, as I'm sorry, as Justin's about to read. But
I mean, there's no reason for her to lie. So I'm just curious how this whole thing played
(38:54):
out. But go ahead and read Justin.
Sure. According to Lee's co-star, Sophia Shinus told most that Lee had rejected advice to
wear a flak jacket because he thought it would be visible on camera. She turned to him and
said, you have got to wear the flak jacket. And he said, no, look, I'm not worried. If
it's my time to go, it's my time to go home. Of course, had he worn the flak jacket, it
(39:20):
probably would have prevented the fatal wound.
Oh, whack dude.
So the people with that attitude though are kind of like, why do you have that? If it's
my time to go, it's my time to go.
Like I said, she doesn't have any reason to lie. There is some oddness.
(39:40):
Oh, sorry.
Oh. That was...
Justin's got a gun now.
Justin, a gun just fell out of... Okay. So there's a couple of things that are odd here.
I don't know of flak jackets being common to put underneath costumes on sets. I guess
(40:08):
that's more of a stunts question. Maybe they do for certain situations and I just haven't
paid attention over the years. And I could be wrong, but it does feel a little bit odd
that he was offered a flak jacket. And then to continue, and he actually quotes, or he
is quoted as saying, if it's my time to go, it's my time to go. And it's like, well, that's
(40:31):
ominous.
Yeah.
Like...
By flak... So I'm... Flak jacket is bulletproof vest?
Essentially it's a bulletproof vest. Yeah. It's a jacket that has particular material
inside that is...
Yeah, like tuffel on it or something.
(40:52):
Yeah. And they have metal plates sometimes.
That sucks though, too. I think an older actor might have, but it sounds like this dude was
pretty young. 28.
28? He's like, if it's my time to go...
Never gonna die. Yeah. He wanted to do the best in the scene. Like, ah, we'll see. It'll
look bad. Don't let... No, nothing... What could happen to me?
I just learned to play guitar. What could go wrong?
Literally feeling invincible.
(41:13):
Yeah. Yeah.
I mean, no one dies right before they're 30. Anyway.
Especially actors.
Especially actors.
Yeah. Yeah.
Actors and musicians. Chad Stahelsky, now that I'm looking at his name again.
I think Stahlsky.
Stahlsky. Sure. Chad, will you write us? Tell us how to say your name. So... Which I actually
(41:41):
have seen him in a John Wick interview talking about decision on guns and stuff and everything.
He does seem like a really cool guy. And talk about Pivotal in his career to have been here
for this entire thing. And then almost three decades later, you're now directing a franchise
that's amazing in play. So interesting. So the last thing, and maybe Justin, if you'd
(42:09):
read this as well, we're back to our producer, Jeff Most. He actually knew Helena Hutchins
and he spoke to the Rust tragedy as someone who knew her and also having been producer
for The Crow. I thought he had a really interesting take on his opinion on the aftermath of Rust,
(42:34):
which clearly was not shared by the prosecution. But Justin, do you want to read that?
Yeah. Most reflects unbroken hearted at the loss of Helena. She was a friend to me as
well as my wife, who was a cinematographer. We met Helena shortly after she was out of
AFI. That's American Film Institute. She was a dear, wonderful woman, somebody we very
(42:58):
much had designs on working with. You want to look at the silver linings of what can
be learned in situations. And certainly what was learned in the loss of Brandon was a routine
formula of checking the barrel of a gun to make sure that there is no bullet, no protrusion
of any sort, that the barrel is clean and clear and is held to the light. And a practice
(43:18):
in which the first assistant director, oftentimes the key grip and the prop master are all involved
with the actor in making a certain weapon is cold when it's cold, is hot when it's
hot and there is nothing in the barrel or chamber that could be ejected. To see that
in the almost 30 years between the movies we hadn't improved upon that was certainly
(43:43):
devastating. I will say that I find it tragic and beyond belief that Alec Baldwin has been
held any bit responsible for this. As a producer with more than 30 years experience and numerous
action films under his belt, I can assure you that there is no place in the world in
which an actor is responsible for the weapon they're handling. Most concludes, there's
(44:06):
no place for anything but absolute safety on a set and it all brought back memories
of the terrible tragedy with the loss of Brandon. It should not have been repeated and I hope
it won't ever be again.
And I mean, just my opinion, but I think he's absolutely right. I mean, we've sort of said
it more or less in the rust coverage, but by that time that weapons getting to the actor,
(44:29):
I don't think it's the actor's fault. They got a lot of stuff going on in their head
that they're thinking about right before the camera rolls, their dialogue, their actions,
you know, movement, what they're doing with the prop if that's involved. And they rely
on those safety protocols and the crew to do their job to deliver that thing safely
(44:52):
to them so that they can carry out their end of the deal as it is.
That's the whole thing with actors too. There's a process. You don't want to weigh them down
to too much stuff. You don't want them thinking too hard besides the thing they need to be.
You can load us down with whatever you want.
Yeah, but like with actors, I mean, that's the whole thing too. Like that's why, you
(45:13):
know, you shouldn't be talking to an actor too much, especially if they have like a serious
scene they're doing there.
Can you imagine if one of us like, you know, let's say Justin's mixing and like I'm a producer
and I come to him like, hey, you know, next take we need it. And then Justin just cuts
off going like, I got too much on my plate right now. You're in my eyeline, by the way.
This is not a part of my process. I have a process and I'm getting there.
(45:35):
I have a process and you're fucking with it right now.
I know some mixers who will do that.
Well, that's true.
I love when sound gets mad.
Yeah, it happens.
They're scary.
Sound needs to get mad sometimes, rightfully so. I will defend part of that.
(45:56):
Justin's got a gun right now.
Yeah, Justin, as we just established. And he keeps dropping it, which is obviously not.
I tell you what's not a safety protocol is dropping guns.
So hold this thing.
(46:17):
I've gotten in the habit of because of post rust world and there's a lot of, you know,
and it's justified. It's just annoying on our end. But, you know, when we're clearing
weapons and stuff, there's a lot more attention than ever to it.
So you get a lot of kind of going all the way back to our first episode on rust.
And I alluded to a certain crew member that always asked for a weapon safety check after
(46:42):
we've done it multiple times. And it's very annoying.
But it's like, I get it. I get it. I get it.
And at the same time, there's a reality of things where, you know, like for me, I've
found over the years, if you do like a lighthearted joke and a couple of reassuring things, that's
(47:04):
usually enough to get yourself out of this conversation and move on with what you actually
need to do. So you in this situation, maybe you say like, you know, there is no ammo of
any kind, whether you want to say real live, fake dummy, this is just an expensive paperweight.
(47:24):
That's what this is. It can't do anything unless I hit you with it. So there's absolutely
no form of ammo anywhere to be found. This is simply a cold weapon as we have checked,
and there is no chance of it doing anything beyond that. And that should be enough to
satisfy that. So now I can go and do actual work.
Yeah, go around pistol whipping people. Yeah. And then I show you like, see, it hurts.
(47:49):
This is why you don't use it as a hammer. But yeah, I think, you know, if you want to
talk about positives from this, you know, you got up until Rust, you know, like we said,
almost 30 years of more or less safety. There's a couple of, and we'll get into them, like
(48:11):
I said on future episodes, but I do know of a couple of specific instances. And interestingly,
there are things that were told to me by, you know, my mentors or predecessors, whatever
you want to say. And again, like that game of telephone, when I started looking into
(48:32):
them, I'm like, oh, this has to be what he was talking about, but it is different from
the way I was, you know, it was explained to me, you know, but it'd be things like I
was told it was on the set of a soap opera, but it was actually a TV action series. It's
like, I mean, they're both TV. So there's that, but they really are few and far between.
(48:54):
So I think the protocols that got put in place, as long as you're following them, they're
doing their job. And as we have beat that dead horse, that's what they didn't do on
Rust. I also just worked, I'm going to tell you all this, I just worked with an actor
that had worked with the AD from Rust. Not on Rust, but on a different show before Rust.
(49:21):
And they were polite, but they just said that that was just that dude's thing. He was-
Not cool.
Yeah, issues followed that dude.
Yeah.
As we have kind of tiptoed around. But anywho, let's get out of here on this. Any final thoughts
to The Crow? I know this is a little different from our legendary lores that actually explained
(49:50):
the movie synopsis, which is not something I do often on these. But I mean, does this
pique your interest, Zoe, that you're curious to go check it out?
The Crow?
Yeah.
Yeah, The Crow's on the list. It's been on the list.
You know what? I didn't even factor this in. She's not there time-wise.
Yeah, far from it.
Oh God, why did I even ask?
Yeah, so-
(50:11):
Are you in the 40s right now? 50s?
Yes.
I'm in the dickity. That's all you need to know.
But no, The Crow's been on the list for a while.
(50:31):
The leader of the, I can't think of the actor's name offhand, but the leader of the gang,
he's been in so many things. But I mean, in The Warriors, he's clinking the bottles like,
Warriors, come out and play. That guy. He's got that unique voice that's sort of southern
sounding and it's got that twang to it. And I don't know, anytime he shows up, I'm always
(50:56):
like, Ooh, I like that guy. He's solely in commando. You remember when I said I'd kill
you last solely. That's right, Matrix. I like-
I was trying to look him up.
Anyway, but you got this really cool cast. You got this interesting movie and it's just,
it's unfortunate. I do wonder, Brandon Lee's career, had this not happened, would he have
(51:22):
blown up into major action star like his dad or-
Would he have just done some things that we know?
Maybe this would have been his peak. He certainly had the foundation though. I mean, not just
the pedigree, I guess you could say, but I mean, he was being groomed to do what he was
(51:43):
doing. I mean, like in that quote that you all read, he had been studying martial arts
his whole life. It's like, you're the child of Bruce Lee. You're going to be taking martial
arts classes.
You're also going to be taking theater classes. You're also going to be doing, so he was basically
being groomed to be an action star in kind of a weird sense of it.
(52:07):
Was his dad alive when he passed?
He was eight years old, I believe, when his dad died. So I mean, he knew him.
Interesting. I guess we'll never know. We'll never crow.
There we go.
Smells like a fart in this room.
(52:30):
Give me the gun. Give me the gun.
That's a big plate of cheese you're holding there.
All right, Justin, any thoughts?
No, I can't top that one.
Okay. Well, in that case, Zoe, I think you only got one other thing to say.
(52:51):
Yeah, I got something to say.
Do you like what we're doing here? Do you have thoughts, comments, questions? Maybe you have
an idea or suggestion for topics you want to hear about? Well, you can find us on the
intrawebs. You can email us at filmfolklorepodcast at gmail.com. You can find us on the social
(53:11):
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Twitter X, whatever you want to call it, at the Film Folk. And yeah, thanks for joining
us today.
Thanks, everyone.
Bye.
Hello film friends, friends of film and everyone in between. Welcome to the Film Folklore Podcast.
(00:16):
I am Jed Props and I am joined today by Justin Sound.
Hello.
And Zoe Props.
Hello.
Chris could not be here. This is a totally different recording time from last week's
episode when Chris just once again couldn't make it. Where is Chris?
Chris has had a crazy like Falsie Towers series of events. He stubbed his toe and then he
(00:40):
fell onto a chair and then was catapulted out the window where he then fell into more
manure. Can you believe it?
Two weeks in a row.
He's got the full cast on his body. You know what I mean? Where all their arms are up and
they only have holes in their mouth, nose and eyes.
(01:00):
I can only hope that next week he doesn't complete the manure trifecta.
You never know. You never know.
We'll know if he doesn't make it.
So yeah, poor bastard.
Sorry, what were you going to say Justin?
Pray for Chris.
Is he getting in different kinds of manure?
I don't know. I don't know if this has just been like a big pile outside of his house
(01:20):
for the last week that has not been moved or different.
Right.
It's like a cow field.
Yeah.
Or there's technically just a pile of fertilizer.
Right.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I see.
It's kind of thing.
Just trying to find him.
Yeah.
So I'm excited because we're starting our new series today that we had alluded to at the
(01:43):
closing of Rust. I'm still not 100% satisfied with the title. Right now I'm just calling
it Safety On Set, but we'll try to come up with something better. I should have polled
y'all. That's what I should have done.
Yeah. You should have.
Yeah. Well, I don't know. If this releases and it's got something better, then you'll
know we figured it out.
(02:03):
It might be the acronym that's throwing it off.
Yeah.
Yeah, that's true. Why is everybody thinking I need help?
So I don't know a better way to make the segue happen than to cover what we're going to do
today. And that is the 1994 Brandon Lee tragedy. That is the Crow. And we talked a little bit
(02:30):
before we started the show, but have y'all seen the Crow?
No.
Not shocking. And Justin, you said you had seen it.
I have seen it. It's probably been at least 15 years.
Yeah. I just watched it yesterday while I was finishing up this episode. And it brought
(02:52):
back a lot of nostalgia. I was 15 when this movie came out. I loved the soundtrack at
the time. It was very of the era. And Brandon Lee was kind of an up and comer. There was
a movie called Ricochet. It was an action movie I remember enjoying. I don't know how
(03:14):
it holds up, but anything about the tragedy that occurred with the shooting of the movie?
Yeah, I know that happened. I think it was something like the gun wasn't cleaned and
there was still shit in there and he got shot in the face or something like that. Sorry,
this is like what I...
No, no, no. That's exactly what I wanted you to say because I want to go off of memory
(03:38):
and what we had heard before we get into the...
Yeah, I know that it's a goth cult classic and there wasn't a bullet in, but there was
pieces or something because it wasn't cleaned properly. It's what I know or what I believe
to be true.
Okay. And Justin?
Well, growing up, I always heard it was a murder. I always believed that too growing
(04:07):
up just because I didn't really hear anything else and I didn't know anything about how
something like that is supposed to go down. I think I did eventually when I get older,
probably more skeptically read or hear that it was more along the lines of a mistake made
(04:30):
with the actual process such as something not getting cleaned properly. Maybe I heard
something along the lines of it was a blank, but shrapnel still flew far enough to where
it...
Yeah. And I had heard similar as well because this, especially in props, this is one of
(04:55):
those almost like, I guess I would call it like a departmental bedtime story of sorts
where it's like a tale of morals kind of thing, like a cautionary tale. That's what I'm trying
to say. And I had always heard similar things. I had heard that the guns were being passed
(05:17):
off between units and they weren't getting properly cleaned and that there was some debris
that turned into a projectile that ended up killing him, I think is more or less the way
that I had heard it.
Yeah.
And that's what moves to all of this, which is why we all have heard similar things. And
kind of like anything else, the moment... I mean, this happens to me practically everything
(05:41):
I research on this is that I realize, oh, I was A, wrong, B, telling wrong information.
And that's kind of the game of telephone that a lot of this stuff becomes. And maybe it's
just a good lesson for anybody that maybe fact check yourself before you go rampantly
(06:02):
talking about something as fact.
Tricky check yourself.
Because we know...
Before you wreck yourself, yeah.
Thank you. So, wait, how old are you?
17.
So, we're going to get into it. And I wish Chris was here because again, this is not only
(06:30):
a good, you know, to have an 80s opinion, but there's so much that parallels from this
to almost 30 years later to the Russ tragedy. And you all will see it when we get into it.
But what better place to start than the beginning? So, we'll start there. So, a brief background
(06:50):
on The Crow. If you've never seen it, it's a sort of goth superhero R rated revenge story
set in Detroit beginning on Devil's Night, which I had never heard of Devil's Night until
I saw The Crow as a teenager. Did you all know or do you know what Devil's Night is?
(07:11):
October 1st or what is that? I have no idea.
It's basically, I believe it's the night before Halloween. And I don't know, and anyone feel
free to write or use our call in number we don't have. But it's either a Detroit specific
(07:32):
thing or there is some kind of specific holiday lore to it or something in the past. That
part I don't know and I didn't bother to look up. But Detroit specifically had a bad reputation
on Devil's Night of actually committing vandalism and arson and things like that. It was basically
an excuse for assholes to go fuck up the city. Cool. Yeah, great. Yeah. They were probably
(07:57):
all 16. But it's like the purge. Yeah, it's like the purge, but not directed towards people.
Yeah. Property. Yeah, exactly. So a little fun trivia on that later. So just put a pin
in it. But the idea is that Brandon Lee stars as a rocker musician named Eric Draven, who
(08:24):
returns to his apartment one evening, such as Devil's Night, to find his fiance brutally
attacked by a local gang and they are subsequently both murdered. A year later, he is summoned
from the dead, given powers, exacts revenge, hijinks and sue, Bob's your uncle. So that's
what The Crow is in a nutshell. It's originally based off of a comic book. Now is a franchise.
(08:50):
There's multiple iterations of it. I haven't seen the newest one, but if it's anything
like all the other sequels and revamps, they're not good. I do have a soft spot for the original,
but yeah, it was a diminishing return on the anyways. So producer Jeff Most is his name.
(09:13):
Producer Jeff Most discovered James O'Barr's comic, The Crow, and immediately was enamored
with the story. He got O'Barr on board and the project was underway. Brandon Lee, son
of martial arts legend Bruce Lee, if you all hadn't figured that one out, was tapped to
play the lead. You could say that Brandon was a bit of an up and comer because he was
(09:33):
starting to see a good momentum of success in the early nineties. I had mentioned Ricochet
was a action movie I remember enjoying that he was in. And he was only 28 years old when
he would go on to star in what is his biggest and most successful production to date. And
unfortunately he would not be alive to see it to fruition. So another thing I didn't
(09:58):
know, the production was in Wilmington, North Carolina, which we have talked about for its
nineties hay days. And interestingly, I mean, our department did a great job. I thought
it was in Detroit, so good job on them. We've mentioned it before, but Wilmington being
the hotbed of filming that was in the nineties, that's pre-incentive world. I kind of feel
(10:23):
like that's a, maybe I could do a whole episode on Wilmington maybe. You know, we'll look
into it, we'll see. But as far as the shoot goes, it had been a good shoot. They were
almost done. They were 52 days in on a 60 day shoot. And by all accounts I read Brandon
(10:44):
was a delight to work with. He was young, passionate, very dedicated to the shoot. He
was friendly with the crew. He was accommodating to production. You just, by everything I read
and have heard, he seemed like a genuinely good guy, which is why he had to die because
good people get killed anyway. I'm kidding. But as we all know, assholes don't die. But
(11:13):
if you would look, Zoe, in this next little thing, I found a snippet where the producer,
Jeff Moos, reflects on working with Brandon.
Okay. So this is what Moos says about Brandon. He exemplified all those beautiful qualities
in an individual. He was smart. He was intuitive. He was so masterful about understanding himself
(11:35):
in relation to this role and what he wanted to bring to it and literally throwing out
all of his training in martial arts, which was significant and tremendous. He wanted
to create his own language of movement because he understood this character. This was not
a martial artist. He's a musician. He's a guy who has never probably gotten into a fight
in his life. And yet he comes back with this tremendous power and a mission. Brandon tried
(11:55):
to envision a mental approach to how he could create this individual who at once has to
do these horrible things. And yet it's the furthest thing from anything that would have
been in the persona of the character while they were alive. It was an incredible, artful
and intentionally thought out performance. That's what is so resonant with people today.
(12:16):
Moos remembers Moos being, Jeff Moos remembers how each day Brandon Lee would wake up at
5.30 AM, starve himself and work out. Given the character, Lee insisted on learning how
to play the guitar. So Jeff Moos found a teacher for him in Wilmington. You couldn't throw
more things at the man and he took it all in like a sponge. Aw, Brandon Lee. I didn't
(12:40):
really say that was Bruce Lee's son. No idea. That's sad.
Is why I guess we technically weren't recording when Justin said that, but that's where the,
or wait, no, we were on there with the conspiracy part of it. Because when Bruce Lee died, there
(13:04):
was a lot of conspiracy theory that it wasn't an accident that someone had had foul play
was involved. So part of Brandon's tragic death on set kind of reignited that whole
conspiracy theory world, which is why you get sort of around two of it. Or if it, if
(13:27):
not conspiracy, just curse talk, you know, that the Lee family is cursed. So all of that,
I love a good curse. Yeah, who doesn't?
The Lees don't.
Fair enough. Very fair. Very fair point. Yeah, it just brought all that back up to the surface
(13:53):
20 whatever years later. So what happened? Let's get into it. The most important thing,
and again, why it would have been great to have Chris with us. The most important fact
about this tragedy is what it changed in our industry all the way to the present, essentially,
and Russ specifically, which is fascinating, as you're going to see. So as I had already
(14:19):
said, 52 days into shooting on March 31 1993, they were shooting the flashback assault scenes.
Michael Massey, I hope I'm pronouncing that correctly, Massey. He's the actor who played
the character Fun Boy, one of the gang members, he was given the prop gun for the scene. I'm
(14:42):
not sure what the original plan was for the scene. Like, basically, I was finding out
from a few different sources that they had something different planned. And for whatever
reason it got changed. Like Fun Boy wasn't supposed to be one of the shooters originally.
So what's kind of interesting is that whatever led them to make the change or whatever, and
(15:06):
then having the conversation with the actor and saying, like, are you comfortable doing
this thing? He's like, yeah, I'm sure you said something along the lines of what do
you need me to do? Something like that. And then for this to end the way it did, it's
like, oh my God, the poor guy, or what about the other guy that was supposed to be the...
So a lot of happenstance in there. But he was given the gun. When Eric Draven, Brandon's
(15:37):
character, when he comes into the apartment, he's holding a bag of groceries. And the effects
department had put a squib in the prop bag of groceries. And Justin, do you want to talk
about a squib for a second? Sure. I mean, as much as I can. It's, I mean...
(15:59):
Well, part of it ties into sound if you're talking wires and stuff, right? Yeah. Yeah.
So there's a little crossover there. Yeah. I mean, it's a device that essentially explodes.
I mean, that's a strong word, I guess. It's a pop, I guess. Yeah. It pops open. And sometimes
(16:20):
excretes blood-like liquid. So if you, to your point, if you are, maybe you're doing
an action movie and a classic eighties action, and you think of like a guy's got a machine
gun and he shoots multiple people, you see that blood coming off of all the people getting
(16:41):
shot. Those are squibs popping off. And with the little charge, it will be like a little
bag of blood. So when the charge goes off, it's making that blood come out being the
liquid that you were just referring to for that. But squibs by effects have multiple
purposes and it's a very useful item that can do different things. But a lot of times
(17:01):
it's simulating that projectile of a gun that's not there. And so in this case, it's the bag
of groceries is popping off to give the simulation as if the bullet went through the bag of groceries
to hit him. So that's the idea at least. And yes, we don't like when our microphones are
(17:25):
close to these things. I would imagine not. Because it's loud. Because it's loud. Because
it's loud. I guess it'd be kind of situational, but do you try, if they're switching to squib,
do y'all go like, well, maybe we want to boom this if we can or something. Yeah. Just to
(17:45):
try to get the wires away from. Oh yeah. Yeah. A lot of times. And you know, I mean, if it's
a squib that's not close to a wire, then we'll just, we'll keep it on and just turn it down.
Turn it. Right. Exactly. So I didn't realize that dummy rounds didn't officially exist
(18:07):
yet in 1994. That was one of the things I learned on this. So, which I'm now curious
what they were doing before this. And I don't think it was necessarily what they did to
make the dummy rounds. But essentially it is a little shocking when I was reading this.
But as just a quick refresher, dummy rounds are the bullet rounds that look exactly like
(18:35):
real ammo, but they're hollow on the inside. They just put a couple of BBs inside. So when
we shake them, we hear the rattle. That's how we know it's a dummy round. But otherwise
the primer has been spent on the back. They look like a real bullet in every other way.
And we use those for purposes of when we need to see ammo on set. But, you know, let's say,
(19:00):
for example, maybe someone's wearing a bandolier, you know, so you can put a bunch of dummy
rounds in it. So, you know, it's safe, but it also looks like they got an ammo belt.
Or maybe they're loading or unloading a magazine. You know, there's situations where you want
to have these dummy rounds, but also be safe and keep anything that has actual gunpowder
in it far away from the actor. So what they did on this show, which is interesting, there's
(19:29):
an effects technician named Bruce Merlin, and he was assisted by Daniel Kuttner, who
is the prop master. They were dismantling live rounds, removing the bullet. So it's
just like the shell casing, dumping the gunpowder, hitting the primer, you know, spinning it,
and then reassembling it back together. So basically a homemade dummy is what they were
(19:53):
putting together.
And you know, I would need to talk to somebody a little older than me that was in the industry
in the early 90s and before that maybe could speak a little better to it. But I was just
surprised that, I mean, already at this point in the 90s, you would think something like
(20:16):
this would already exist or be standard, but apparently not. Because why else would they
be doing it? So this is where these episodes for us are a little bit like crime junkies,
if anyone ever listens to crime junkies. I'm just going off of what I can find on the internet.
(20:40):
So we talked a little bit about how we had heard different versions of the stories. I
had heard that they were shooting in two different units, which I wasn't able to find anything
that confirmed that. All I could find was that the gun was used earlier in the day in
a different scene. And in whatever scene they were doing earlier in the day, they were putting
(21:06):
dummy rounds into the gun. And at some point, while that weapon had the homemade dummy rounds
in it, a trigger must have been pulled or something because the determination was that
(21:26):
one of these homemade rounds, the primer maybe wasn't, the primer was still active and there
was enough residual gunpowder to push the bullet forward a little bit. So basically
it got into the barrel of the gun. Now, for example, when you were mentioning shrapnel
(21:47):
and things like that, there is a little bit of confusion as far as what was lodged in
the barrel. So it might have been remnants of that, or it could have been the whole thing.
There's not a lot of clarity on that. But what's interesting about this period of time
in our industry, we didn't do weapon clearance at this time. So this movie is the reason
(22:12):
why we put flashlights in barrels to show that the barrel's clear and what all of our
protocols come from this movie, which I sort of knew, but kind of deep diving into this,
it was more of a confirmation. So what's interesting is that if you want to say something positive
from this tragedy, it's that our safety protocols sort of got cemented and how can I say, they
(22:35):
got streamlined across the industry. So didn't matter what show you're on and what state
or whatever, you're still going through the same safety protocols. And when this gun gets
to set, it is now being loaded with our regular flash ammo, our flash bangs, or not flash
(22:59):
bangs, what am I talking about? Anyway, but I'm assuming because it was an interior shot
in kind of a tight space, they probably were using a quarter load. They might've been using
a half load at most. And that normally harmless round, it's harmless because it doesn't have
(23:24):
a projectile. The bullets been removed, the tips are crimped and it's just for the purpose
of the bang or the flash of the muzzle flash coming out. So what happens in this situation
is that that normally harmless load became the catalyst to fire what's now a projectile
(23:47):
of what was lodged in the barrel of the gun. So when the actor, Michael Massey, when he
fires what's emitting from the gun is more or less a projectile. And so it hits him in
his right abdomen and the squib goes off on the grocery bag and they say cut and everything
(24:14):
seems like it went really well because he went to the ground like he's supposed to and
the squib goes off. They look great. He acted like he got shot. Yeah. It was the stunt coordinator
who was the first to say, Hey, something's not right. When he realizes A is not getting
up and B he's noticing he had labored breathing. And at first they couldn't see anything obvious
(24:40):
and there was no blood that was obvious. So they're like, maybe the squib did something
because it's right next to them. They're not thinking that the gun did something because
that was like 20 feet away. So they're trying to figure out like what's going on, what's
going on as they are kind of getting the costume off and everything. Now they're seeing the
(25:00):
blood. Now they're realizing, Oh shit, you know, so ambulance is coming, you know, he's
going to the hospital. They worked on him throughout the night, I believe. And I want
to say around one something in the afternoon, the next day he passed. The, the projectile
(25:21):
had done a way more damage than what was originally assumed. It went in his side, it spun a loop,
like a, like a loop de loop. And then eventually it lodges in his spine and that's after it
had cut two arteries and it had hit some major organs. So I'm not sure even if, even if the
(25:48):
accident happened in a hospital next to an operating table, if it would have, you know,
if they would have been able to save him. And, and it's a, you know, there's no other
way to say it than it's a tragedy. It's, it's something that, you know, obviously we make
movies, we're meant to entertain. You don't want these kinds of things to happen. And
(26:10):
tragedies are just a reality that happens sometimes. With this particular case, because
it was sort of unprecedented, it's why we now had all these safety protocols and things
put into place. It's not going to be shocking to anyone, but it also was sort of the end
(26:37):
for a lot of people that worked on it, including the actor, Michael Massey barely acted again
after this. And he, there was an interview with, he actually passed away in 2015. He
was only 61. But he, in an interview reflecting on this, he said, you know, it's not really
(26:57):
something you ever get over. And it's like, no, I imagine not. He probably had gotten
friendly with Brandon and everything like that. And I mean, you can only imagine.
Sure. Yeah. It's not like he's a cop or something like sees this all the time as an actor.
I pretend to kill.
Yeah. Yeah. You know, I'm not, but, you know, I mean, just really shocking, I think for,
(27:19):
for those involved and getting into a little bit about, you know, and well, actually, first
I'll say that the Wilmington police did an investigation and even though no charges were
filed, it was ultimately declared an accident due to negligence. And they just kind of left
it at that. One thing that's interesting about that is you fast forward all the way to rust
(27:43):
and the same determination has happened, but they are out for, for culpability. They want
a guilty party where in this situation they're going, it's a horrible tragedy. It's nobody's
fault specifically.
Do better.
Do better. But to put a little bit of onus on something, it's, I'm going to put it on
(28:08):
the production itself because we encountered this more often than we should, but you know,
we can get swept up in the demands of the project. It can be combined that those demands
can be combined with a lack of maybe time, maybe pressure to be ready by a certain time.
(28:28):
And now you're rushing to get to that readiness. There could be a lack of safety protocols,
but all these things are what led to that accident. It's not that anyone was neglecting
their own job as so much as it was, this is going at a fast pace. Every time I've ever
heard this story, it was, it was very go, go, go. It was very fast pace. Guns are exchanging
(28:53):
hands. You know, you need communication, you need safety things. One thing that was interesting
about this, I couldn't find where there was like a specifically an armorer. And I did
find that there was, I think his name was James. I put it further down. It was, where
(29:15):
is he at? They had a, yeah, here it is. The company had hired a freelance firearms consultant
which I've never heard of that like consulting title. But maybe that's an older world of
safety rules that have altered because of this show. I mean, nowadays the armor is always
(29:37):
present when there's gunplay. It's just a mandatory thing. And if you're ever on a show
that they're trying to say, no, we don't need it. You always argue. Yes, we do. And unfortunately
slash fortunately we can point to things like this and say, this is why we need this. But
(29:57):
one thing that's just a random aside about that guy, the freelance firearms consultant,
he had been dismissed earlier that day on that particular day of the shooting because
they had declared it a routine gun scene. So we won't need you. Now, what did he do
exactly as a consultant? I don't know. Could he have done something differently? I don't
(30:23):
know.
Yeah, looked in the gun, I guess.
A lot of speculation. So the studio and the producers found creative ways to ultimately
finish the movie. They, you know, they, after the tragedy, they, they went down for several
days while they kind of regrouped and, and kind of reassessed everything, but they did
(30:45):
ultimately finish the movie and it was a success. It's not something we're going to go into,
but it is worth going into if you're, if you're curious, it is very interesting what they
did with the technology at the time to complete the movie. Another fun random aside is his
stunt man, Chad Stalewski. I'll see it when I read it. Anyway, that stunt man or his stunt
(31:14):
double, I mean, he is who went on to finish the movie basically as Eric Dravens. They
were cheating with him. They were using certain repeating shots, flipping images, you know,
cutting and pasting essentially with 1990s tech. But that, that stunt double, he goes
(31:36):
on to eventually be the director of the John Wick movies. So I thought that was kind of
an interesting, and they're very, the John Wick movies are very clear about not having
real weapons on the set. You know, they, they work around it. They use the fake VF, VFX
muzzle flashes and stuff. And eventually everything looks great in those. Yeah. John Wick rules.
(31:57):
And I'm glad you said that because I was just about to say, as technology improves, using
real guns will eventually be a moot point. And where we are right now, kind of to the
point of what Justin just said, John Wick has a lot of money. So with a lot of money,
(32:21):
you can afford good VFX where you see the need for live fire is where maybe you don't
have money for VFX and you don't want it to look cheesy. Yeah. I always think of the,
like a TV show where they, they say it's a house fire, but it's very clear that the flames
(32:42):
have been superimposed onto a very okay house. It looks so bad, but, but this is a thing
as technology improves, it'll sort of solve the safety issue altogether on its own. Now
in the case of rust, you still have the mystery of how real ammo got on a film set to begin
with. That's a whole other can of worms. But with this, we are heading in that direction.
(33:06):
So I think it is a good thing and eventually it will be, you know, where maybe a TV series
or a lower budget movie will be able to have the capability to replicate like a bigger
budget show, like a John Wick could. So the safety protocols that were put into place
(33:31):
after this have had almost 30 years of more or less being successful in preventing accidents.
There's very few accidents that are this level of tragedy. And, and again, it's because some
protocol wasn't followed or some kind of stuff. And, and those are, some of those we'll get
(33:52):
into on future episodes. But for this, I mean, that's just, again, why the rush shooting
was so avoidable because, you know, I mean, you had to violate so many things to get to
that tragedy. And kind of getting us into a wrap up here. I know that, that we and other
(34:13):
people have described the rush shooting as a perfect storm. Do you all feel that this
was a perfect storm or do you feel that, you know, this is truly just an accident at its
core? I mean, there's certainly ways to go about looking at it.
I mean, the rust thing is a totally different thing. This sounds like 14 violations in one.
(34:36):
Yeah. I mean, also rust, you know, that happened, what, just a few years ago, maybe, maybe between
2020, 23, something like that. I can't really remember.
It's been longer than we think. It was like 21 now.
Okay. Yeah. So it's been a few years, all the right protocols were in place. This it's
(34:56):
like, okay, 1993. That sounds like that's just how they did it. And yeah, it was, you
know, it was an accident. It doesn't sound like there was a protocol of like, I mean,
gosh, you know, we work, we'll have this fake ass gun that can't shoot a gun and crew asks
us to look down the barrel or, you know, whatever. It doesn't sound like any of that was in place.
(35:22):
No. You know, that I'm like, yeah, it just sounds
like a kind of horrible fucked up thing that-
Because there weren't rampant accidents. Yeah. There weren't rampant accidents happening
before this even. Yeah.
It's not like you go to the 80s, 70s or 60s or something like that and you're hearing
about like widespread- Sure. It's like a common thing. That just
happens. Yeah. So, you know, it really does feel like
(35:45):
it was just a very unfortunate accident. And, you know, until we can actually interview
somebody that was there, you know, I think this is as close as we can get to try to see,
you know, what was avoidable and what wasn't for the time period. You know, and I say that
in the sense of like, if the protocols aren't there, then it's not necessarily avoidable.
(36:08):
Yeah. You know, it happened because this wasn't there.
So I would be curious, like what was considered the safety of the time. That would be kind
of interesting. Yeah.
I'm wondering what this this firearms consultant was.
Yeah. What do they do? I mean, I'd be willing to bet that, you know, I mean, he might have
(36:32):
been blowing some whistles and they were like, yeah, you can go home for today.
Which wouldn't be the first time I've seen a-
Oh, sure. You know what I mean?
Especially whenever you hear the term tech consultant, which is not exactly what this
person may have been, but oftentimes a tech consultant like Zoe on NCIS, we always had
like a military, you know, it was a Coast Guard or Navy. Yeah. And so that's our tech
(36:56):
consultant and using NCIS actually as an example, you know, that person doing their job, their
job is to say, the Navy wouldn't do this in this situation. And then-
Right. It's really more about like lingo and how they stand or greet each other. There's
kind of just like-
The consultant is supposed to be helping you bring the realism to you. The problem is,
(37:20):
that you're on a network procedural like NCIS New Orleans and they don't care that much.
And so I always felt bad for the consultants because a lot of times they'd be like, yeah,
that's great. Okay, let's do what we're going to do anyway. And then you're like, well,
wait, why do you have the consultant here? Because now you're making him look bad.
(37:41):
You're still here. You can go home, man.
Yeah. Whatever. He's getting paid for the day.
We got the notes. We got the notes. Boats have things on them. Great. Okay.
That boat should be in water.
Yeah. Boats are on the water, not land. Got it.
Yeah. Clean the gun. I got it.
So I mean, that's a fair question to ask. I mean, I don't know if freelance firearms
(38:05):
consultant is the term for armor before we were saying armor, you know, or is this a
guy sitting at Village in a chair just going like, yep, that's a gun.
Yeah. Yeah. I'll be in the bathroom.
But no, you're holding it upside down.
Yeah. Yeah. It's a fair question. So Justin, I had a thing here for you to read because
(38:32):
I thought this was interesting as well. This is another aside as far as now the only account
I could find was from his co-star as Chris, as I'm sorry, as Justin's about to read. But
I mean, there's no reason for her to lie. So I'm just curious how this whole thing played
(38:54):
out. But go ahead and read Justin.
Sure. According to Lee's co-star, Sophia Shinus told most that Lee had rejected advice to
wear a flak jacket because he thought it would be visible on camera. She turned to him and
said, you have got to wear the flak jacket. And he said, no, look, I'm not worried. If
it's my time to go, it's my time to go home. Of course, had he worn the flak jacket, it
(39:20):
probably would have prevented the fatal wound.
Oh, whack dude.
So the people with that attitude though are kind of like, why do you have that? If it's
my time to go, it's my time to go.
Like I said, she doesn't have any reason to lie. There is some oddness.
(39:40):
Oh, sorry.
Oh. That was...
Justin's got a gun now.
Justin, a gun just fell out of... Okay. So there's a couple of things that are odd here.
I don't know of flak jackets being common to put underneath costumes on sets. I guess
(40:08):
that's more of a stunts question. Maybe they do for certain situations and I just haven't
paid attention over the years. And I could be wrong, but it does feel a little bit odd
that he was offered a flak jacket. And then to continue, and he actually quotes, or he
is quoted as saying, if it's my time to go, it's my time to go. And it's like, well, that's
(40:31):
ominous.
Yeah.
Like...
By flak... So I'm... Flak jacket is bulletproof vest?
Essentially it's a bulletproof vest. Yeah. It's a jacket that has particular material
inside that is...
Yeah, like tuffel on it or something.
(40:52):
Yeah. And they have metal plates sometimes.
That sucks though, too. I think an older actor might have, but it sounds like this dude was
pretty young. 28.
28? He's like, if it's my time to go...
Never gonna die. Yeah. He wanted to do the best in the scene. Like, ah, we'll see. It'll
look bad. Don't let... No, nothing... What could happen to me?
I just learned to play guitar. What could go wrong?
Literally feeling invincible.
(41:13):
Yeah. Yeah.
I mean, no one dies right before they're 30. Anyway.
Especially actors.
Especially actors.
Yeah. Yeah.
Actors and musicians. Chad Stahelsky, now that I'm looking at his name again.
I think Stahlsky.
Stahlsky. Sure. Chad, will you write us? Tell us how to say your name. So... Which I actually
(41:41):
have seen him in a John Wick interview talking about decision on guns and stuff and everything.
He does seem like a really cool guy. And talk about Pivotal in his career to have been here
for this entire thing. And then almost three decades later, you're now directing a franchise
that's amazing in play. So interesting. So the last thing, and maybe Justin, if you'd
(42:09):
read this as well, we're back to our producer, Jeff Most. He actually knew Helena Hutchins
and he spoke to the Rust tragedy as someone who knew her and also having been producer
for The Crow. I thought he had a really interesting take on his opinion on the aftermath of Rust,
(42:34):
which clearly was not shared by the prosecution. But Justin, do you want to read that?
Yeah. Most reflects unbroken hearted at the loss of Helena. She was a friend to me as
well as my wife, who was a cinematographer. We met Helena shortly after she was out of
AFI. That's American Film Institute. She was a dear, wonderful woman, somebody we very
(42:58):
much had designs on working with. You want to look at the silver linings of what can
be learned in situations. And certainly what was learned in the loss of Brandon was a routine
formula of checking the barrel of a gun to make sure that there is no bullet, no protrusion
of any sort, that the barrel is clean and clear and is held to the light. And a practice
(43:18):
in which the first assistant director, oftentimes the key grip and the prop master are all involved
with the actor in making a certain weapon is cold when it's cold, is hot when it's
hot and there is nothing in the barrel or chamber that could be ejected. To see that
in the almost 30 years between the movies we hadn't improved upon that was certainly
(43:43):
devastating. I will say that I find it tragic and beyond belief that Alec Baldwin has been
held any bit responsible for this. As a producer with more than 30 years experience and numerous
action films under his belt, I can assure you that there is no place in the world in
which an actor is responsible for the weapon they're handling. Most concludes, there's
(44:06):
no place for anything but absolute safety on a set and it all brought back memories
of the terrible tragedy with the loss of Brandon. It should not have been repeated and I hope
it won't ever be again.
And I mean, just my opinion, but I think he's absolutely right. I mean, we've sort of said
it more or less in the rust coverage, but by that time that weapons getting to the actor,
(44:29):
I don't think it's the actor's fault. They got a lot of stuff going on in their head
that they're thinking about right before the camera rolls, their dialogue, their actions,
you know, movement, what they're doing with the prop if that's involved. And they rely
on those safety protocols and the crew to do their job to deliver that thing safely
(44:52):
to them so that they can carry out their end of the deal as it is.
That's the whole thing with actors too. There's a process. You don't want to weigh them down
to too much stuff. You don't want them thinking too hard besides the thing they need to be.
You can load us down with whatever you want.
Yeah, but like with actors, I mean, that's the whole thing too. Like that's why, you
(45:13):
know, you shouldn't be talking to an actor too much, especially if they have like a serious
scene they're doing there.
Can you imagine if one of us like, you know, let's say Justin's mixing and like I'm a producer
and I come to him like, hey, you know, next take we need it. And then Justin just cuts
off going like, I got too much on my plate right now. You're in my eyeline, by the way.
This is not a part of my process. I have a process and I'm getting there.
(45:35):
I have a process and you're fucking with it right now.
I know some mixers who will do that.
Well, that's true.
I love when sound gets mad.
Yeah, it happens.
They're scary.
Sound needs to get mad sometimes, rightfully so. I will defend part of that.
(45:56):
Justin's got a gun right now.
Yeah, Justin, as we just established. And he keeps dropping it, which is obviously not.
I tell you what's not a safety protocol is dropping guns.
So hold this thing.
(46:17):
I've gotten in the habit of because of post rust world and there's a lot of, you know,
and it's justified. It's just annoying on our end. But, you know, when we're clearing
weapons and stuff, there's a lot more attention than ever to it.
So you get a lot of kind of going all the way back to our first episode on rust.
And I alluded to a certain crew member that always asked for a weapon safety check after
(46:42):
we've done it multiple times. And it's very annoying.
But it's like, I get it. I get it. I get it.
And at the same time, there's a reality of things where, you know, like for me, I've
found over the years, if you do like a lighthearted joke and a couple of reassuring things, that's
(47:04):
usually enough to get yourself out of this conversation and move on with what you actually
need to do. So you in this situation, maybe you say like, you know, there is no ammo of
any kind, whether you want to say real live, fake dummy, this is just an expensive paperweight.
(47:24):
That's what this is. It can't do anything unless I hit you with it. So there's absolutely
no form of ammo anywhere to be found. This is simply a cold weapon as we have checked,
and there is no chance of it doing anything beyond that. And that should be enough to
satisfy that. So now I can go and do actual work.
Yeah, go around pistol whipping people. Yeah. And then I show you like, see, it hurts.
(47:49):
This is why you don't use it as a hammer. But yeah, I think, you know, if you want to
talk about positives from this, you know, you got up until Rust, you know, like we said,
almost 30 years of more or less safety. There's a couple of, and we'll get into them, like
(48:11):
I said on future episodes, but I do know of a couple of specific instances. And interestingly,
there are things that were told to me by, you know, my mentors or predecessors, whatever
you want to say. And again, like that game of telephone, when I started looking into
(48:32):
them, I'm like, oh, this has to be what he was talking about, but it is different from
the way I was, you know, it was explained to me, you know, but it'd be things like I
was told it was on the set of a soap opera, but it was actually a TV action series. It's
like, I mean, they're both TV. So there's that, but they really are few and far between.
(48:54):
So I think the protocols that got put in place, as long as you're following them, they're
doing their job. And as we have beat that dead horse, that's what they didn't do on
Rust. I also just worked, I'm going to tell you all this, I just worked with an actor
that had worked with the AD from Rust. Not on Rust, but on a different show before Rust.
(49:21):
And they were polite, but they just said that that was just that dude's thing. He was-
Not cool.
Yeah, issues followed that dude.
Yeah.
As we have kind of tiptoed around. But anywho, let's get out of here on this. Any final thoughts
to The Crow? I know this is a little different from our legendary lores that actually explained
(49:50):
the movie synopsis, which is not something I do often on these. But I mean, does this
pique your interest, Zoe, that you're curious to go check it out?
The Crow?
Yeah.
Yeah, The Crow's on the list. It's been on the list.
You know what? I didn't even factor this in. She's not there time-wise.
Yeah, far from it.
Oh God, why did I even ask?
Yeah, so-
(50:11):
Are you in the 40s right now? 50s?
Yes.
I'm in the dickity. That's all you need to know.
But no, The Crow's been on the list for a while.
(50:31):
The leader of the, I can't think of the actor's name offhand, but the leader of the gang,
he's been in so many things. But I mean, in The Warriors, he's clinking the bottles like,
Warriors, come out and play. That guy. He's got that unique voice that's sort of southern
sounding and it's got that twang to it. And I don't know, anytime he shows up, I'm always
(50:56):
like, Ooh, I like that guy. He's solely in commando. You remember when I said I'd kill
you last solely. That's right, Matrix. I like-
I was trying to look him up.
Anyway, but you got this really cool cast. You got this interesting movie and it's just,
it's unfortunate. I do wonder, Brandon Lee's career, had this not happened, would he have
(51:22):
blown up into major action star like his dad or-
Would he have just done some things that we know?
Maybe this would have been his peak. He certainly had the foundation though. I mean, not just
the pedigree, I guess you could say, but I mean, he was being groomed to do what he was
(51:43):
doing. I mean, like in that quote that you all read, he had been studying martial arts
his whole life. It's like, you're the child of Bruce Lee. You're going to be taking martial
arts classes.
You're also going to be taking theater classes. You're also going to be doing, so he was basically
being groomed to be an action star in kind of a weird sense of it.
(52:07):
Was his dad alive when he passed?
He was eight years old, I believe, when his dad died. So I mean, he knew him.
Interesting. I guess we'll never know. We'll never crow.
There we go.
Smells like a fart in this room.
(52:30):
Give me the gun. Give me the gun.
That's a big plate of cheese you're holding there.
All right, Justin, any thoughts?
No, I can't top that one.
Okay. Well, in that case, Zoe, I think you only got one other thing to say.
(52:51):
Yeah, I got something to say.
Do you like what we're doing here? Do you have thoughts, comments, questions? Maybe you have
an idea or suggestion for topics you want to hear about? Well, you can find us on the
intrawebs. You can email us at filmfolklorepodcast at gmail.com. You can find us on the social
(53:11):
medias, Instagram, and Film Folklore Podcast. We have a Facebook group called Film Folklore,
Twitter X, whatever you want to call it, at the Film Folk. And yeah, thanks for joining
us today.
Thanks, everyone.
Bye.
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