February 15, 2022 • 56 mins
Return to Monke. Reject modernity, embrace ape.
Jelli and Bekinney continue breaking down Akira Toriyama's worldwide manga and anime phenomenon by tackling episodes 12 and 13 of the anime, "A Wish to the Eternal Dragon" and "The Legend of Goku" then have a discussion about the Great Ape, Oozaru, and its inspirations from kaiju film and television
In this episode:
- Jelli and Bekinney find themselves trapped after an unfortunate encounter
- A call is placed for outside assistance
- Special Guest: Matt Parmely from the Kaiju Transmissions podcast joins our discussion
- Brief plot synopsis of episodes 12 and 13 of the Dragon Ball anime
- Brief discussion of favorite moments from the anime episodes
- Breaking down the most obvious influence of Oozaru, King Kong and his popularity in Japan, which bolstered that of Godzilla
- A debunking of the claim that Kong was Japan's first kaiju via an unearthing of some facts about the films King Kong Made in Japan and King Kong Appears in Edo
- What leads most people to claiming these are Japan's first kaiju films, and what we know to the contrary, despite the films being lost forever due to the bombing of Hiroshima
- A recommendation to check out the book, Kong Unmade, by John Lemay
- How King Kong influence Donkey Kong and Godzilla and Eiji Tsuburaya and Akira Toriyama
- The original name of Oozaru, kaibutsu-zaru, and its meaning
- How the Wolf Man (1941) influenced Oozaru
- Discussion of Sun Wukong's transformation abilities and how those literary roots influence Oozaru as well
- What Eastern mind-sets about one's consciousness and subconsciousness have to say about Goku's transformation
- Why cutting off the tail is the method of de-transformation
- A discussion of how the Oozaru form has ceased to be used in more recent years
- A bit of praise for Dragon Ball GT for bringing the form back to use
- A very brief discussion of what 'canon' is in the Dragon Ball franchise
- How the appearance of Oozaru affects all the characters, even the Pilaf gang, and makes them work together to survive
- What the most memorable moments of the Oozaru are
- How the form does some inversion of tropes and ideas, and potential ideas for how it could further be used for Toriyama's favorite idea of subverting expectations
- A plug for Kaiju Masterclass, an online convention, which includes interviews with Ryhuei Kitamura, Bear McCreary, Shusuke Kaneko, and more creators behind the Godzilla, Ultraman, Gamera, Evangelion, and other kaiju, tokusatsu, and related franchises.
- and more, including some general pop culture, kaiju trivia, and editorializing, as usual.
Join us, and Matt, as we continue to uncover the cultural meanings, publication facts, inspirations and more behind the wildly popular Dragon Ball franchise.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
It's over 9000.
(01:15):
Welcome super elite warriors to Final Forum, a podcast for the discussion of all four things.
Dragon Ball, I am your host, Jelly, an elite recruiting member of the Freezer Force on a mission to find the best warriors from across the Galaxy to join the greatest army of all time.
And I am joined, as always, by my new recruit, Cohost.
Yeah, this is the Bekinney.
Say Jelly, are you sure we're heading in the right direction? The Scouter picked up a reading of 6500 over this way.
(01:42):
Definitely over 6000.
That's not half bad.
It's not half great either considering where our power level is.
But the minimum consideration for the Freezer Force is only 1200 and anyone over 5000 gets strong consideration.
Whoever it was could at least be a peacekeeper on the low level planet.
(02:02):
Hey, nobody on my planet site for me is ever top 5000.
Yeah, and why do you think Lord Frieza didn't even bother to keep an infantry there to keep your people in line? You posed no threat.
I think we might pose some threat if you knew.
If we knew.
What about your legendary bathroom breaks? No.
Shut up and keep your eyes peeled.
(02:23):
Shut up.
You were the one that started this podcast.
While we're supposed to be looking for a warrior, I'm just trying to do the thing.
The banter thing.
Fair point recruit.
Yes, listeners were here on planet Earth up Terra as our long range scouters picked up a blip and then upon landing, our personal devices got us a bearing to follow.
(02:45):
All we've seen so far has been a lot of foliage and a few insects.
It's a marshy surface here.
We're slopping through muck and mud and waiting for shallow pools looking for this warrior.
Hey, I'm usually the one that describes the planet's topology.
Usually we've been on one other planet and I described the terrain.
(03:05):
Listen, you keep your eyes peeled.
With a power level like this around, it makes sense that larger animals would probably steer clear of the area.
Our fighter is probably nearby.
Any read on the Scouter? No, but did you say some fighters can suppress their power? Suppress or only harness when they transform? Yeah.
Hey, speaking of transformations, does it count if.
(03:28):
Do you hear that? Why did you start a podcast requiring us to speak? If you keep telling me to be quiet, would you just listen for 1 second? Okay.
Yeah, I definitely heard that.
It came from behind that ticket over there.
(03:49):
Now I'm picking something up.
Obviously I am too.
It's right where those noises are.
02:00.
Hello? Can anybody hear me over there? Reading is 7200 now and holding.
Okay, follow me.
Hello? Hey, we're with the freezer for us.
I'm not sure if you've heard of it, but I can see the warrior.
(04:11):
They look a lot bigger than either of us.
Light pink skin, long flowing bright red hair, muscles upon muscle.
This guy is bigger than the two of us put together.
You know, size matters very little.
Be ready to translate for me if needed.
Hello? Hey, listen, warrior, my name is Jelly.
I'm an elite recruiter working with Lord Frieza to gather fighters who can.
What the hell is that? Don't just stand there.
(04:35):
Run.
They're everywhere.
Listeners, that commotion must have attracted what appeared to be John giant insects.
Dammit.
Just run.
Click in there.
That cave there.
Dive in.
I'll glass the opening behind us while we're in.
(05:05):
Are we safe? Assuming there's nothing worse than giant crickets who bite off heads inside this cave, yes, we're safe for our listeners out there.
As I just alluded to, we were attacked by gigantic crickets.
For lack of a better word, they immediately decapitated the warrior who was out there for who knows what reason.
But in any event, it means whatever these creatures are, they're strong, though clearly antagonistic.
(05:31):
Now we've dived into a cave that have caused a cave in at the entrance to block those things from getting in here.
What the hell, man? What the hell? You never said anything about giant crickets.
It's a big Galaxy.
Not every planet is well charted.
Besides, it could be worse.
How could it possibly be worse? We could have a saying on the rampage in his great ape form outside.
(05:55):
And speaking of which, oh, please don't do it.
Oh, I'm doing it.
Let's take a minute to catch our breath and discuss this week's topic.
And to help us discuss this week's topic because we're going to be delving into a giant creature, we're going to reach out on our scouters.
(06:16):
We're going to dial someone up.
We're going to call one of our friends.
This is going to be our friend Matt.
Matt is with the Kaiju Transmissions podcast.
He has been doing that for a few years with his co-host Bird.
And they discuss all things Japanese, giant, monster, fantasy fiction, that kind of stuff.
Godzilla, Gamera, Ultraman.
(06:38):
We've talked about those few things a little bit here on this show already.
And so we're going to call Matt, we're going to dial him in and he's going to help us break down this week's topic of discussion.
Let me call him up.
(06:59):
So Matt, thank you for joining us.
Super stoked to be on actually.
And you've been on our show a ton, so I'm glad to be able to come on tonight.
Yes, under an alias.
I have been on that show.
So if you're a common listener to both shows, you have heard me on the Kaiju Transmissions podcast before.
(07:21):
But this is final forum.
This is our Dragon Ball podcast.
But like I said, we're going to be discussing a giant creature this time.
And I'm going to spin it back over to Bikini to recap the episode and get us kicked off on this topic of discussion for the day.
Alright, so I drew the good straw this week because there's not a whole lot to recap where we left off.
(07:47):
Our heroes were stuck in what we dubbed the solar oven, waiting for daybreak and their inevitable demise.
During the course of the episode Full Moon, Goku mentions that during Full Moons, there's a giant ape monster that shows up and destroys things and in fact, killed his grandfather, at which point people start piecing together based on his story that he might be the one responsible for the destruction.
(08:17):
And they warn Goku not to look at the moon.
And of course, what happens anytime you tell anybody not to do something, they immediately do it.
And it's sort of played off as a gag at first as he looks at the moon and then looks back at his friends and nothing really seems to happen.
There's almost like a little bit of relief that washes over them, only to immediately be cut short as he turns into the Ozaru, the giant ape monster.
(08:43):
So this has the positive side effect of busting everybody out of the solar oven that they've been stuck in.
But unfortunately, it causes a rampage and the Oozaru starts to essentially lay waste to Peel Off's Castle goes back and forth for a bit.
With Pilaf defending his Castle.
Our heroes trying to get away from the Oozaru to save their own lives.
(09:05):
They eventually come up with a plan on the fly to cut off the Ozaru's tail, which immediately reverts Goku back to his normal state.
Afterwards, he's passed out for a while.
Everybody takes solace in the fact that their troubles are now over.
And then our heroes decide to part ways.
(09:27):
With most of the group heading off towards.
They just call it the city.
I don't think an actual name for the city is ever given, but they, I guess, plan on getting an apartment together or something.
And Goku decides to fly off to go train with Master roshi.
And that's pretty much where the episode ends, tying this back into Journey to the west.
(09:52):
As we have been for the past few episodes, Sun Wu Kong has the ability to become as tall as heaven, which is a transformation ability that is basically synonymous with the character itself.
The appearance of the Ozaru harkens back to Sun Wukong’s appearance.
And Toriyama's initial Goku design, which was a lot more monkey themed than Goku actually is.
(10:15):
Toriyama also bases the idea to an extent on King Kong because Kong is incredibly popular in Japan, right? Talking about that, the King Kong part of it.
The original Kong was a smash hit in Japan.
And the rerelease of that original in the 1950s is a key factor in the creation and success of the Godzilla franchise.
(10:40):
That movie comes out.
Producers see it and see how much money it makes.
And the team that made Godzilla gets to go ahead to make a giant monster movie from Toho.
So Kong begets Godzilla.
Kong even crosses over with Godzilla in King Kong versus Godzilla.
(11:01):
Which to this day remains the most highly attended Godzilla film in Japan.
It also created a lot of the conventions of the genre itself.
In terms of usually you kind of introduced the two monsters kind of separately.
They have their first fight.
They go off with somewhat of a draw.
Or maybe one of them having an upper hand.
(11:21):
And then they have another little mini adventure, each on their own.
And then they come back for a final conflict at the end.
That's a big kind of convention and trope and structure of the genre.
And that's created in this movie, King Kong vs.
Godzilla.
And the two would cross paths again in 2021.
Godzilla versus Kong, which is one of 2020 one's highest grossing films.
(11:44):
There's even a lot of claims.
As I was doing a lot of my research.
I came across this being repeated over and over and over.
As I was either reading books.
Or clicking through some links or watching some YouTube videos.
I came across a lot of claims that Kong was actually Japan's very first kaiju.
And one of the reasons I brought Matt in was to talk a little bit more about that.
(12:06):
Because it's not maybe as entirely true as a lot of those claims say.
Yeah, there's two films that most people to claim that Kong was Japan's first guide you.
The first is King Kong made in Japan.
And then you have King Kong appears in Edo.
And the first King Kong made in Japan.
(12:27):
Is actually, like, not at all a traditional kaiju film in the way that we think of it.
The movie's plot is actually about a struggling and homeless man.
Who is in love with a woman.
But he can't be with her due to his lack of livelihood.
And so he creates this vaudeville show.
And he basically wears his concealed, destroys miniatures to try to make money.
And then to be able to marry his love.
(12:48):
This is actually a short film made by the studio shoot.
And that was actually the same company.
That dubbed the original American 1933 Kong film into Japanese for a theatrical release.
This film actually was specifically designed to be shown before the screenings of the American King Kong film.
It was not a kaiju film by any stretch of the imagination.
(13:11):
And actually, probably the most interesting thing I think about the film.
Is that it's believed to be lost forever.
Because it was destroyed in the atomic bombing of Hiroshima.
And then you have the second of these films, the King lost film, which is the 138 King Kong appears in Edo.
And it's got a bit more uncertainty swirling around it.
The movie definitely isn't about the King Kong that we know as a giant ape from Sky Island.
(13:35):
Just appearing in cheaper Japan and wreaking havoc.
Rather, it's the name of a pet ape of the film's main antagonist.
Who kidnaps the daughter of a feudal Lord.
There's some publicity stills and they've shown this Cong as both giant and human size, which is kind of adding to some of the confusion.
And the suit actor, he actually wants to use the word giant to describe the ape, but that could easily just be a reference to the size of an ape as being able to kill a human.
(14:01):
So though not certain, it's pretty unlikely that this was a true Kaiju film.
And again, unfortunately, like the previous film was actually forever lost due to the bombing of Hiroshima.
Interesting.
Yeah.
And for even more on those movies and a whole bunch of other King Kong movies, some made, some unmade, some concepts of ones that eventually wound up being made.
(14:25):
And where those concepts permutated from, you can refer to the book Kong Unmade, the Lost Films of Skull Island by John LeMay that actually has input, Matt from your co-host at Kaiju Transmissions, Kyle Bird.
But yeah, with all that cleared up, really, the most important piece to take away from all of this is that Kong is wildly popular worldwide and in Japan in particular.
(14:51):
And this inspires a great many Japanese content creators.
Take, for instance, just offhand Donkey Kong that's named Donkey Kong a due to, like they said, he was stubborn like a donkey.
But then the Kong part of it is his resemblance to King Kong.
So this inspiration of King Kong, like we said, and we'll probably say again and again, he watches movies and TV while he works.
(15:20):
It extends to Toriyama as well.
Now, originally, Toriyama called this ape form Kaibutsu Zaru, which just means ape monster.
And he used Kaibutzu rather than kaiju to denote that there's a difference between this monster.
And like the giant monster from monster movies, though, Kibutuzaro is a giant, to be sure, it's not meant to be like a city smashing giant like Godzilla.
(15:48):
So it's like not quite the same scale.
It's later that he coined the term Ozaru, and he sticks with that moving forward, kind of as we've seen before, he forgets what he names things or he changes his mind as time goes on.
The o in front of a word in Japanese usually means great or large and is also a hominem for King.
(16:09):
So it's another way to play on words for Toriyama denoting it as large ape or like King of the apes.
Yeah.
And it's also an uncommon or not uncommon, excuse me, a common naming convention for unnamed kaiju that appear immediate.
So, like specifically the Godzilla franchise, one particular example would be the Oodaku, which is from the King Congress of Godzilla film Daku, meaning octopus and Japanese.
(16:37):
So there's some blurring of the lines between the older uzaru and traditional kaiju.
And then Furthermore, in the show Altar Cue, which, by the way, I can't recommend that show enough.
If you ever want to check out something Ultraman related, Ultra Queue is a great place to start.
That's two recommendations.
It's magnificent and it's cheap.
(16:59):
It's like $11 for Ultra Q and like $9 for Neo Ultra Q.
Yes, they're both wonderful, but the second episode of Ultra Queue features a pet monkey who winds up growing huge and edgy.
Tsuburaya reused a Kong suit from King Kong vs Godzilla, but he actually added big ears and a tail, and at one point in the episode it is referred to as Ozaru, right? You can see when you start stacking these things on top of each other, it's pretty clear where Toyama's drawing his influences from with the big ears and the tail and the more human stature.
(17:35):
And we've shown over and over how influenced by TV and movies he is, whether unconsciously or consciously, and whether he admits it or not.
And speaking of admitting things, Toriyama openly admits he wanted a transformation in his manga, and he says he originally intended for the transformation to be more human sized and similar to a Wolf Man because he's a big fan of the 1941 Universal Studios Wolfman movie, which duh, so am I.
(18:06):
There's another one I can't recommend highly enough if for some reason you've never checked it out.
But however, when Toriyama kind of realizes the situation he's put our characters in and he needs the transformation to be bigger to get them out of their jam, he utilizes causing the Full Moon to cause the transformation to retain that homage to the Wolf Man.
(18:28):
So even the congee that Toriyama chooses to use for Full Moon, those are more traditional and they actually specifically denote a reflection of the moon in one's eyes.
So there is where you kind of get your whole Toriyama blending this tradition of Sun Wukong with the more modern Kong and obviously the even more modern than Kong Ultra queue, as well as this Western monster movie in this fusion of cultures, and he creates something new with it.
(18:59):
Additionally, with regards to the moon aspect, the use of the moon as a counter agent to Peel offs plan to Bake our heroes in the sun is sort of like a Yin Yang opposition.
In Kanji, the symbols for Yin and Yang even contain the symbols for Moon and sun respectively.
So it's likely that Toriyama is aware of this Yin Yang aspect, and he's playing on it by having the murderous rage fuelled Ozaroo of Yin energy burst forth from the innocent kind observable Yang of Goku.
(19:27):
The Ozaroo being unknown to Goku is part of an ancient Chinese belief that within each Shishen or Knowing self there exists potentially several foul Yuan Shen, or Assistant Spirit elves that can assist or influence the conscious self in difficult times or just in general as a sleepwalker.
Kind of like calling on your ancestors type thing, if you will.
(19:51):
So while these Assistant spirits are fully aware of the Knowing Self, it is only those with highly adapted skills and intense training who can consciously tap into and communicate with their Fuyuan Shen.
Yeah, and that'll kind of Interestingly come into play much later when we get into Z and talking more about Vegeta, I think.
(20:12):
But as for why the tale needs to be cut off to end the transformation, that's pretty simple.
Toriyama just hated drawing it.
And again, he's notoriously kind of lazy and so he even said he was just trying to think of a way from the outset and a reason to get rid of the tail almost as soon as he started working on Dragon Ball and he was like, this will be a good opportunity and he has the tail just get cut off.
(20:37):
Obviously there's a running theme in this show or in this manga of the creator just being like, I don't want to do that.
That's too much work.
That's where a lot of transformations end up coming from, too.
I don't want to explain how they get that strong.
We'll just make it a transformation.
It's fine.
(20:58):
Yeah.
The whole reason Super Saiyan looks the way it does is because Toriyama got tired of coloring in Goku's hair.
That's perfect.
Let's just talk about this form a little bit more.
It's hard now to separate it from what we know about Goku as a Saiyan and an alien and this being intrinsically tied to his race.
(21:27):
For me, it was always linked to that alien nature.
I never thought of it as more of a mystical thing like it is during its initial appearance.
I totally get it now, and I think it works just as well either way.
I don't know about you guys, but like, just me, for instance, when you're watching this show very often throughout, especially in the very early goings, and this is kind of one of those things where it's almost better that it gets dropped.
(21:58):
Maybe after the second or third episode, I forget when it is.
But very early on, Bulma makes a big to do about the tale, and then she even is shocked when Goku can kind of use it like it's prehensile and then the whole element to his character gets dropped and I feel like you mostly forget about it, except for the one point where Chichi grabs his tail and it makes him weak.
(22:23):
It kind of then works, then it makes it feel like it was really well set up.
That, oh, there's something weird about this kid.
He's not 100% just a normal human being.
So it works on that mystical level.
But for me, it's hard to separate it from the alien nature.
I had the exact same experience because you always tied back to what the Saiyans can transform, and they use this as a way to conquer planets, which is what kind of the intent is in the and then when you watch it in this and you would never have that inclination other than Goku just isn't fully human.
(22:59):
But I agree with you, it does work both ways.
And I actually think I've watched Dragon Ball in a very long time.
But I actually rewatched the first 13 episodes in preparation for coming on tonight.
They set it up really well.
They set the story up for him and the relation to what happens to his grandfather.
But you never kind of piece together anything until this episode.
(23:21):
I think the story is told in a way that it's believable.
It's a lot of fun.
And also they don't make a big deal of the tale.
But also like, Dragon Ball has a bunch of weird talking animals too.
So like, it doesn't really throw you for a loop the way that it could maybe in other shows.
I'm saying as you guys, I think it works both ways, but I wouldn't mind talking to somebody who was introduced this through Dragon Ball first and going through the whole thing chronologically as to how it hit them when it's revealed in Z that he's an alien because it would just hit differently for somebody who was introduced to Goku when he was still a kid.
(24:03):
It is weird, right? I mean, that's the big reason why there's a delineation between Dragon Ball and Z.
It's not the age difference of Goku, because towards the end of Dragon Ball, you get a fairly significant time jump and you get Goku as a I don't want to say full adult yet, but he's in his very early adulthood, right.
(24:29):
When you get the final tournament arc that's in Dragon Ball, but that is still Dragon Ball.
We don't consider that time jump to be part of a different show.
And I think really the key difference is Dragon Ball is more mystical and more these things are happening because of traditions and because of Japanese and Chinese traditions, and it's all springing forth from this journey to the west, whereas Z then gives some of these things more practical explanations.
(25:04):
Matt and I are both tied into the Kaiju world a little bit when people always want an explanation for how King Kong got so big or something.
It's sort of like Toriyama is giving that answer, but at least he's doing some fun and interesting things with it.
Yeah.
There's a group of like, I'm just going to call it kind of idiotic fans and they're always upset.
(25:29):
How did Khan grow from 100ft tall to 400ft or whatever he is in the next movie? And it's like, I don't think that question is actually worth asking, let alone answering.
But you're right, Tom.
That's exactly what that is.
Don't question it.
Just enjoy the movie.
So I'm going to ask Matt a question and it's going to blow his brains, but I'm going to try to qualify the question afterwards and maybe make it not as triggering for him.
(26:08):
I'm triggered.
I think what I really kind of mean by that is can you see those influences in this form? Feel free to use other appearances of it as well.
(26:29):
But can you see the influences of Kong and that episode of Ultra Q.
I forget what the monkey's actual name in it? Is it Goro or Godo or something? Gogo or something like that? Yeah, it starts with a G.
We know that for $11 you could find out at home.
(26:55):
Man, Mill Creek needs to give me a job.
But no, I mean, you think that stuff kind of shows its face in this? I do, yeah.
I'm trying to think of how to answer this without like going on a kaiju tangent here.
That's why I brought you on, though.
(27:18):
Okay, so there's this whole thing on Twitter where somebody was like, hey, is Clifford the Big Red Dog a kaiju? And all they're saying is he's a big dog and if the monster is big, they must then also be a kaiju.
That's their very loose definition of what a kaiju is.
But kaiju is supposed to be more of like strange beast.
(27:40):
And then you add the giant component, later on it becomes die kaiju.
I would say that the influences of Kong, the size of the beast, the fact that later on they actually give him like this beam that he can shoot from his mouth.
Yeah, it's absolutely a kaiju, but like, is that a Hill that I want to die on? No, it's not.
(28:00):
But I think the answer would be, yeah, like the influences of Congress and they're obvious and they're intentional.
And then you have him, he's as big as a Castle, he's ripping things apart.
And then later in the you have like, Gohan destroying everything in front of Piccolo.
You find out that the Sands are actually using this form as a way to conquer planets because they go into these unstoppable rage Fest and they start shooting this beam that like basically creates atomic bomb explosions.
(28:30):
So like, they're definitely monsters and they're definitely kaiju.
But I don't know that I'd argue with somebody over it if they thought differently, right? Yeah, I think because they'd obviously be wrong.
Right.
I think you can see the influences of it throughout too.
Right.
This isn't one of those things where the first time we see it, it's just very like kaiju.
(28:54):
It's destroying a city type of thing.
And then the next time we see it, granted, the next couple of times we see it, it's not destroying cities, it's in like just barren, Rocky wastelands.
Actually one exception because the very next time we see it actually is at a world martial arts tournament.
(29:14):
But even there, it's not like destroying cities.
So where it kind of comes into play more in these later episodes is when the Ozaru is interacting with people and crushing them and stepping on them and things like that, which are all things that you could see in Kong, specifically in the 1933 original, is really the only one that has like an extended sequence where Kong runs amok in the village, not just in New York City, but in the village when he first breaks out of the gate on Skull Island and he's kind of stamping the dude into the muck and all that kind of stuff.
(29:57):
Those images are somewhat similar.
So one other thing that's happened is we see this pop up, this transformation spoiler alert pops up again in the very near future, like somewhere in the next 20 or 30 episodes for sure.
(30:19):
And then it does pop up again later in Z when Vegeta uses it and Gohan gets accidentally triggered before.
But since then in Dragon Ball Cannon, it has been largely forgotten about.
I don't know.
Does that bother you guys at all? Do you feel like it's been forgotten, ignored, disrespected? Would you like to see it come back? Any thoughts on that? I'm a little disappointed that the only time they ever tried to do anything with it was in GT with the Super Saiyan four transformation, which was just a pretty neat idea though.
(31:05):
I like that idea at its core in GT.
I don't know about you guys, but the idea that cutting off your tail does limit your full potential.
Yeah, I do like that idea and I do like the idea of GT.
I don't love as a whole, but they actually took something that had basically been forgotten about and they tried to bring it to the forefront.
(31:29):
And I think there were a lot of stories that they could have told using the Ozaroo.
There's just a bunch of stuff you could have done with it.
And I don't know if it was just like, not interesting because honestly, the fight between Goku and Vegeta and the great ape form is actually pretty fun to watch.
And you have this, like the Bardock movie has some of it as well.
(31:52):
So there's some stuff they could have done.
Would you sit down and watch a movie with a bunch of say it's conquering a planet and transforming? Like, of course you would.
I think there's things that were left on the table, but I also understand the focus is going to be on the smaller, the humanoid sized characters and them fighting, but I think they left a lot of potential stories on the table by basically just throwing this away and forgetting about it.
(32:17):
I think I would have really liked to have seen two Ozarus fight each other.
Now you're talking Matt's language.
I think that would have been interesting.
Or another example would be like Lord Slug how he makes himself gigantic.
It would be interesting if they countered that with one of the Saiyans using their roof form to fight him.
(32:40):
I think that would be pretty cool too.
That would be fun.
Yeah, that would have been pretty cool.
Yeah.
Massive spoiler alert.
Because I don't know if either of you have kept up at all with where the manga is as of right now, and I don't even talk about where it is as of right now.
While we're recording.
But beyond the end of the super anime, there's a character named Moro.
(33:04):
And again, I only know like little bits and pieces because I plan on reading the manga and stuff as we're going through this show.
So now I'm like, oh, that's something for me to look forward to.
I only know what I know from what I've seen of little things.
But he, I guess becomes, does he become gigantic or he becomes part of a planet or something to that effect.
(33:27):
And that would be a perfect opportunity to bring this form back in some way.
But they don't do that.
Have either of you kept up with heroes at all? Dragon Ball heroes? No.
So it does come back sort of in that.
But like, I guess Dragon Ball is the extended multiverse thing or whatever because they're just bringing in different timelines of these Dragon Ball characters.
(33:56):
Listen, there's no plot, it's just people show up and fight.
But it's fun to watch if you have a few minutes.
It's like every episode is maybe 1012 minutes long.
So it's also pretty short.
Definitely worth checking out.
Yeah, I'm familiar with the show's existence.
I know it's not considered Canon for whatever Canon means.
(34:22):
That's like a whole other kind of discussion even.
Because even within Canon there can be your own interpretations of it.
And the extent to which any of it there's a billion timelines and Dragon Ball.
Yeah.
And the extent to which any of it actually matters at the end of the day really is up to you.
I mean, think about what is Canon and how many people have never experienced.
(34:46):
There are so many people who have never experienced the Dragon Ball portion of Dragon Ball, they're missing out.
Oh, I know for sure.
But yeah, it's not at all uncommon.
Probably the first like ten years I was into the franchise, I had only seen Z and possibly GT.
(35:10):
I never had seen the original.
For however much Canon matters, you can pick and choose your own Cannon in something as vast and sprawling as the world of Dragon Ball.
But yeah, again, that's kind of another one of those things.
I've never checked out heroes, but that's like another Avenue for us to explore eventually on this show.
(35:34):
It's on.
That's what makes this show so great.
We can go anywhere.
So would you say the consensus here is that the Ozaroo is the vestigial tale of Dragon Ball that gets cut off and forgotten about? Yes.
I mean, it is.
(35:59):
This is another one of those things where we could have a much longer discussion and I kind of don't know how much I want to because we could even have this whole discussion another time of power levels and power multipliers and things like that.
Because in Dragon Ball it has been so much more.
(36:20):
This is even just my understanding.
Right.
I'm not even 100% sure what all the power levels are.
But my understanding is that it has been fairly outlined along the way.
Like this person's power level at this point is 600 and at this point it's 6 million and then it's 6 billion and then it's six decadlian.
(36:42):
You know, one of the reasons I guess you could argue that this form has been forgotten is that it's a ten X multiplier to your strength, which like, okay, Goku can kaioken times 20.
Yeah.
But giant red monkey, though, that would be awesome.
(37:05):
Again.
Yes.
I do think there's a place for it and it's just been forgotten and I don't know if it's been forgotten.
I'm not sure why, because if this was something that was only in Dragon Ball and not in Z, I could very much say, oh, it's because it's in that more mystical part of the show.
(37:31):
And then it was just dumped.
But one of the franchise's most popular characters has one of his most iconic early moments, some of his most iconic early moments in this form.
And it's never seen again.
(37:52):
So I'm not sure why it's been dropped, because there are opportunities, I think, to bring it back in some form.
Yeah.
I'd like to see it come back.
I think it'd be awesome.
And I don't know if it's because the show just is kind of, I don't want to say devolved that's such a nasty word to use, but shifted its focus more to being a more interpersonal battle driven thing.
(38:23):
Because one of the things Dragon Ball and I keep saying we're going to talk about this another time, but we will talk about this another time.
One of the things Dragon Ball really revolutionized and kind of perfected, too, in manga and storytelling and anime is fighting and the interpersonal fight and these fights are yet the fights themselves are glorious and gorgeous, especially in the anime.
(38:49):
A lot of times there's just some fights where the animation and everything is just beautiful to look at and so much fun and so entertaining.
And that's always an entertaining thing.
Right.
That's why Kung Fu films are so popular, because watching two people Duke it out and test their abilities against each other, even in an animated form is just really entertaining.
And so maybe the shows become more focused on that piece of it and less focused on monsters.
(39:17):
Really.
It's become more focused on the stories you can tell.
But I still think you could tell stories of an interpersonal nature through kaiju media.
And there's plenty of movies out there that show that that's possible.
Yeah.
And I think Matt is going to agree with me on a couple of these that I'm about to list off and maybe he's got some others.
(39:42):
But even recent movies like Colossal or a recent show like Godzilla singular point shows that you can have something that got kaiju in it and lots of kaiju in it, even at times, but tells a personal story.
Yeah.
(40:02):
In Monster Zero, which is one of my favorite Godzilla films, you have these characters that are very much at the forefront with the monsters kind of in the background, and the monsters are dictating where the story goes.
But it's not until the end of the film that the monsters really come out and shine.
But by the time that you get there, your characters have been so established in this very.
(40:23):
I mean, it's a very personal story, and it's about, like, I'm trying to not give a toss analysis here, but the way it plays out is very personal, heartfelt meaningful with these characters.
And when the monsters show up, the stakes have been raised, because now you care about the people in front of you versus some what you consider, like, Bmovie monsters, where you don't care about what's on screen, you just want to see monsters kill things.
(40:46):
Monster Zero is the opposite of that.
You care about the people.
You're there to see the people first.
And that's not something you can say about every monster movie, but it's those kinds of stories that if you adapt into, like, Dragon Ball or even like Dragon Ball Z, you could do a lot of really awesome stuff with.
Yeah.
And I think one of the reasons that potentially arguably the most popular usage of this form is when Vegeta uses it is because, A, he's more antagonistic, but B, he's more aware of himself when he's in his Ozaroo form.
(41:21):
And so you get a very personal story that's going on within it.
Yes.
The Ozaroo in its initial appearance is just crazy WTF moment.
Like Bikini said, I really wish you could go back and experience this without knowing that's coming for the first time, because it's a huge WTF.
(41:49):
It comes out of nowhere.
It's a major left turn and a major curveball.
And not only that, but it doesn't just solely rely on the twist, because there's also that deeper layer to it.
Right.
Of learning something about Goku and learning something tragic about his past.
(42:11):
He is the one who unknowingly killed his own grandfather.
That I think the reason I even forgot about briefly appearing in the Budokai Tenkaichi, or whatever it's called the World Martial Arts Tournament, is that that has a less personal, driven focus to it.
(42:33):
Right.
It's just a kind of fun actiony moment.
And then later you get the thing with Vegeta.
I think you could very easily bring it back again and have it hit that more personal level.
And that's really the roots of the kaiju genre as a whole, too, because, yes, King Kong is the granddaddy of them all and everything, but the genre really becomes a genre with the Godzilla franchise before that.
(43:06):
You've got your outliers, you got your King Kong, The Lost World.
There's a few others, but the roots of this go back to Godzilla.
And even in probably the first five, maybe six, maybe seven Kaiju movies in general, that Toho make they're all very human driven stories.
(43:27):
And to kind of expand on your thought here about having those sort of interpersonal moments sort of punctuate what's going on with this monster.
We also do kind of have that in this episode where we've got Peel off working with his underlings instead of like constantly berating them to try and escape the Castle and defend it against this giant ape.
(43:49):
You've got Yamcha momentarily getting over his fear of women to help Bulma escape danger.
You've got Oolong putting someone else's well being before his own, but also trying to help Bulma escape.
You have Bulma being a little bit more Proactive in looking after herself as opposed to trying to get somebody else to do what needs to be done all the time.
(44:11):
And I think it ties in really well with that theme that you guys are talking about of having these more personal level stories with this giant monster rampaging as a backdrop.
Yeah.
I wonder, this is like almost like a chicken or an egg type of thing.
Did Toriyama kind of lose interest in Kaiju movies? And so he just kind of lost interest in bringing this form back and using it to tell these stories? Or did the idea of what a Kaiju movie is because if you talk to most people, even people who claim to be fans of the genre, they'll say, I'm just here to see the monsters fight, and that's not at all a dissimilar thing from what you hear in Dragon Ball, a lot of times I'm just here for the fights.
(44:58):
Did he lose interest in the genre because he just kind of lost interest in it and so it just kind of faded away, or did he become so aware of it being all about the fights and losing its focus on the human element of it that it's just that kind of influenced him? Like, I don't like where that genre is going anymore, and if I have to bring that into my art, then I have to bring those tropes in and I don't want to.
(45:25):
It's kind of an interesting question and thought it's tough to say, and given Toriyama's behavior, we'll probably never know.
I was going to say you kind of get the sort of the inverse right with the Saiyans attacking the planet earlier where Napa fights the giant grasshopper thing.
In that particular little story, which I think might be a filler episode, I'm not actually sure, but you have the giant creature of Arlia defending the planet and he actually fights Napa and he gets obliterated.
(45:57):
But that's actually kind of a cooler moment which shows me like, you could have done that in a meaningful way with characters that we care about.
You could have continued the tradition of like, I think you're right.
Probably the most memorable appearance of the Oozaru is actually Vegeta's appearance because he's self aware, he can speak he's like insulting Goku as he's basically torturing him and things.
(46:21):
But imagine that story retold from again, like planet being dominated by Sands and the people having to cope with it.
Or like maybe it's the inverse where Sane gets left behind on the planet, decides not to destroy it, and then becomes an Ozaru to save them from a different conquering alien force or something.
I mean there's a bunch of stuff you can do with it.
Yeah.
(46:42):
I think the most interesting potential future for this, if they ever brought it back would be to have either.
I would say Goku.
Most likely he's Goku to have him turn into the Oozaru and have to learn how to Vegeta has to somehow reach him in his mind to be able to get him to use it.
(47:07):
And then you could also tell a story about it being a complete force for good.
Right.
Because we've only ever seen it as an antagonistic force in Dragon Ball.
True.
And so it'd be an interesting inversion, which I was surprised a little bit then that Toriyama never brought it back because he loves inverting things.
(47:30):
Right.
He loves subverting expectations and things and to have him end up bringing it back later and everyone thinks it's going to be like this like rampaging wild beast.
And to have it be like a protector would be a really interesting play and inversion, but it just hasn't happened yet.
Maybe it will come back eventually.
And like Matt said, it even has kind of appeared again in Dragon Ball Heroes.
(47:54):
So you know, there's potential and there's never no hope with a franchise as long running and gigantic as this.
Well, plus you have the Saints from other universes now so they could have benevolent who's or who's for all we know.
Correct.
I think that's it.
(48:15):
I don't know if anyone else has anything to add.
I do have one small thing I wanted to bring up has absolutely nothing to do with Kaiju.
Okay.
I thought it was adorable that Peel off shares a bedroom with Mayan Shoe.
I did watch that.
I was like oh, that's an interesting choice.
(48:38):
It made me chuckle because he's got this huge Castle.
Yeah.
And he shares his bedroom with two other people.
Great.
Yeah.
It's a good episode.
I mentioned this is a good I think I mentioned it last episode.
Like this is a very good final episode for a season one or arc one or whatever because it does leave things open for a sequel for sure.
(49:07):
But if we never saw these characters again after this point, that would also be okay.
Like the arc and everything.
Their stories are very kind of completed at this point.
And I know people who know all the adventures that have we've gone on since and all the growth and drastic increases in power level that Goku still has yet to do are going to be like what he's going off to train.
(49:33):
That's such a tease.
But when we talk about as we've been for the last several episodes of the show, talking about Goku as a character, he's the flat character.
He knows his truth already.
He doesn't have anything really to learn left about himself and all the characters that he has interacted with in this first arc.
(49:56):
Their stories are at least for what they've built up to this point completed.
Yeah.
With that said, thanks, Matt, for joining us.
Do you got a plug or something you want to throw in? Yeah, actually.
So you can find our show Kaiju Transmissions.
We are on Facebook.
(50:18):
We have our Twitter account, which is KT_Podcast.
And then we also have and I don't know when this episode is going to drop, but we have Kaiju Masterclass that we're part of.
We're actually putting on an online convention with several Japanese actors, directors, and that's going to be online through YouTube.
And that's Kaiju Masterclass.
(50:40):
Yeah.
And I'll chime in here and say that this will probably not air before that goes live.
But whether you're coming to this before or after Kaiju Masterclass goes live, those interviews and those things will be on YouTube forever, or at least until YouTube takes them down or something, or until the heat death of the universe.
(51:07):
So you can go back and watch any of them.
And just speaking from past experience, there's been some really good if you're interested in this stuff at all, some extremely good interviews with some of the filmmakers of Godzilla and Gamora movies, people involved with the Ultraman series.
(51:28):
There's been one of the interviews because this is not the math, but this is not the first Kaiju Masterclass that has happened.
So you can go back and watch the old ones, too.
There's an interview with Bear McCreary, who did the score on the Godzilla King of the Monsters movie.
So there's a lot of very varied takes from different content creators who are officially or semi officially involved with this Kaiju genre as a whole.
(52:01):
So feel free to just go over to YouTube and search for Kaiju Masterclass and peruse at your leisure, because there's some really cool stuff in there.
And again, you can check out the podcast as well.
Kaiju Transmissions.
We will talk all kinds of craziness giant monsters, and it's a lot of fun.
And you get to hear Jelly self come on and join us from time to time.
(52:26):
Yes.
I'm a mainstay in October there.
You set up residence in October every single year.
Yes.
Thanks for joining us, Matt.
We'll let you get going now.
Thanks for having me.
Hey, I've been meaning to ask you earlier, you said, oh, my roots.
(52:47):
What was that about your people part plant or something more on the or something side, but sure, it's just a common exclamation of surprise.
Well, my breath is fully caught.
How about yours? I guess.
But aren't those things still outside? It doesn't sound like it.
Why don't I push this rock out of the way and you take a peek? Oh, man, do I have to we could venture into this cave instead.
(53:32):
What was that noise? Which mystery would you rather solve? Whether the crickets are out there or whatever is back in there.
Pass.
Just get out there and take a look.
Okay.
But if I get killed I'm not going to be happy.
Neither will I.
I guess I quit stalling.
(53:58):
Okay.
Let me just take a minute.
Nope.
Oh, you son of a.
Hey, everything actually looks okay out here.
You sure? Yeah.
Wait.
(54:24):
Well, listeners, I guess I'll take my leave of you here.
I probably shouldn't have simulated that roar and forced bikini to go outside but I thought it would be faster to take the direct route than fumbling around in this cave.
Will Bekinney manage to escape the giant crickets bearing down on him? Will I find my way through this cave back to my ship? Will you be able to reach your final form find out next time and help us achieve our final forum.
(55:17):
Final form is written and produced by Tom Gueli.
It is performed by Dan Kinney and Tom Gueli.
Our webmaster is Dan Kinney.
Our theme music is provided by YouTube content creator GVGKid.
Want to learn more about the Dragon Ball universe including concept art, behind the scenes interviews and recommendations from Jelly and beginning? Connect with us on social media like us on Facebook follow us on Twitter at finalforum pod make sure to subscribe, rate and review wherever you receive your podcast and of course make sure to share with your friends and family and help us spread the word of the glory of Lord Frieza the freezer force.
(55:56):
Thanks you for your listenership.
(56:19):
You.
It's over 9000.
(01:15):
Welcome super elite warriors to Final Forum, a podcast for the discussion of all four things.
Dragon Ball, I am your host, Jelly, an elite recruiting member of the Freezer Force on a mission to find the best warriors from across the Galaxy to join the greatest army of all time.
And I am joined, as always, by my new recruit, Cohost.
Yeah, this is the Bekinney.
Say Jelly, are you sure we're heading in the right direction? The Scouter picked up a reading of 6500 over this way.
(01:42):
Definitely over 6000.
That's not half bad.
It's not half great either considering where our power level is.
But the minimum consideration for the Freezer Force is only 1200 and anyone over 5000 gets strong consideration.
Whoever it was could at least be a peacekeeper on the low level planet.
(02:02):
Hey, nobody on my planet site for me is ever top 5000.
Yeah, and why do you think Lord Frieza didn't even bother to keep an infantry there to keep your people in line? You posed no threat.
I think we might pose some threat if you knew.
If we knew.
What about your legendary bathroom breaks? No.
Shut up and keep your eyes peeled.
(02:23):
Shut up.
You were the one that started this podcast.
While we're supposed to be looking for a warrior, I'm just trying to do the thing.
The banter thing.
Fair point recruit.
Yes, listeners were here on planet Earth up Terra as our long range scouters picked up a blip and then upon landing, our personal devices got us a bearing to follow.
(02:45):
All we've seen so far has been a lot of foliage and a few insects.
It's a marshy surface here.
We're slopping through muck and mud and waiting for shallow pools looking for this warrior.
Hey, I'm usually the one that describes the planet's topology.
Usually we've been on one other planet and I described the terrain.
(03:05):
Listen, you keep your eyes peeled.
With a power level like this around, it makes sense that larger animals would probably steer clear of the area.
Our fighter is probably nearby.
Any read on the Scouter? No, but did you say some fighters can suppress their power? Suppress or only harness when they transform? Yeah.
Hey, speaking of transformations, does it count if.
(03:28):
Do you hear that? Why did you start a podcast requiring us to speak? If you keep telling me to be quiet, would you just listen for 1 second? Okay.
Yeah, I definitely heard that.
It came from behind that ticket over there.
(03:49):
Now I'm picking something up.
Obviously I am too.
It's right where those noises are.
02:00.
Hello? Can anybody hear me over there? Reading is 7200 now and holding.
Okay, follow me.
Hello? Hey, we're with the freezer for us.
I'm not sure if you've heard of it, but I can see the warrior.
(04:11):
They look a lot bigger than either of us.
Light pink skin, long flowing bright red hair, muscles upon muscle.
This guy is bigger than the two of us put together.
You know, size matters very little.
Be ready to translate for me if needed.
Hello? Hey, listen, warrior, my name is Jelly.
I'm an elite recruiter working with Lord Frieza to gather fighters who can.
What the hell is that? Don't just stand there.
(04:35):
Run.
They're everywhere.
Listeners, that commotion must have attracted what appeared to be John giant insects.
Dammit.
Just run.
Click in there.
That cave there.
Dive in.
I'll glass the opening behind us while we're in.
(05:05):
Are we safe? Assuming there's nothing worse than giant crickets who bite off heads inside this cave, yes, we're safe for our listeners out there.
As I just alluded to, we were attacked by gigantic crickets.
For lack of a better word, they immediately decapitated the warrior who was out there for who knows what reason.
But in any event, it means whatever these creatures are, they're strong, though clearly antagonistic.
(05:31):
Now we've dived into a cave that have caused a cave in at the entrance to block those things from getting in here.
What the hell, man? What the hell? You never said anything about giant crickets.
It's a big Galaxy.
Not every planet is well charted.
Besides, it could be worse.
How could it possibly be worse? We could have a saying on the rampage in his great ape form outside.
(05:55):
And speaking of which, oh, please don't do it.
Oh, I'm doing it.
Let's take a minute to catch our breath and discuss this week's topic.
And to help us discuss this week's topic because we're going to be delving into a giant creature, we're going to reach out on our scouters.
(06:16):
We're going to dial someone up.
We're going to call one of our friends.
This is going to be our friend Matt.
Matt is with the Kaiju Transmissions podcast.
He has been doing that for a few years with his co-host Bird.
And they discuss all things Japanese, giant, monster, fantasy fiction, that kind of stuff.
Godzilla, Gamera, Ultraman.
(06:38):
We've talked about those few things a little bit here on this show already.
And so we're going to call Matt, we're going to dial him in and he's going to help us break down this week's topic of discussion.
Let me call him up.
(06:59):
So Matt, thank you for joining us.
Super stoked to be on actually.
And you've been on our show a ton, so I'm glad to be able to come on tonight.
Yes, under an alias.
I have been on that show.
So if you're a common listener to both shows, you have heard me on the Kaiju Transmissions podcast before.
(07:21):
But this is final forum.
This is our Dragon Ball podcast.
But like I said, we're going to be discussing a giant creature this time.
And I'm going to spin it back over to Bikini to recap the episode and get us kicked off on this topic of discussion for the day.
Alright, so I drew the good straw this week because there's not a whole lot to recap where we left off.
(07:47):
Our heroes were stuck in what we dubbed the solar oven, waiting for daybreak and their inevitable demise.
During the course of the episode Full Moon, Goku mentions that during Full Moons, there's a giant ape monster that shows up and destroys things and in fact, killed his grandfather, at which point people start piecing together based on his story that he might be the one responsible for the destruction.
(08:17):
And they warn Goku not to look at the moon.
And of course, what happens anytime you tell anybody not to do something, they immediately do it.
And it's sort of played off as a gag at first as he looks at the moon and then looks back at his friends and nothing really seems to happen.
There's almost like a little bit of relief that washes over them, only to immediately be cut short as he turns into the Ozaru, the giant ape monster.
(08:43):
So this has the positive side effect of busting everybody out of the solar oven that they've been stuck in.
But unfortunately, it causes a rampage and the Oozaru starts to essentially lay waste to Peel Off's Castle goes back and forth for a bit.
With Pilaf defending his Castle.
Our heroes trying to get away from the Oozaru to save their own lives.
(09:05):
They eventually come up with a plan on the fly to cut off the Ozaru's tail, which immediately reverts Goku back to his normal state.
Afterwards, he's passed out for a while.
Everybody takes solace in the fact that their troubles are now over.
And then our heroes decide to part ways.
(09:27):
With most of the group heading off towards.
They just call it the city.
I don't think an actual name for the city is ever given, but they, I guess, plan on getting an apartment together or something.
And Goku decides to fly off to go train with Master roshi.
And that's pretty much where the episode ends, tying this back into Journey to the west.
(09:52):
As we have been for the past few episodes, Sun Wu Kong has the ability to become as tall as heaven, which is a transformation ability that is basically synonymous with the character itself.
The appearance of the Ozaru harkens back to Sun Wukong’s appearance.
And Toriyama's initial Goku design, which was a lot more monkey themed than Goku actually is.
(10:15):
Toriyama also bases the idea to an extent on King Kong because Kong is incredibly popular in Japan, right? Talking about that, the King Kong part of it.
The original Kong was a smash hit in Japan.
And the rerelease of that original in the 1950s is a key factor in the creation and success of the Godzilla franchise.
(10:40):
That movie comes out.
Producers see it and see how much money it makes.
And the team that made Godzilla gets to go ahead to make a giant monster movie from Toho.
So Kong begets Godzilla.
Kong even crosses over with Godzilla in King Kong versus Godzilla.
(11:01):
Which to this day remains the most highly attended Godzilla film in Japan.
It also created a lot of the conventions of the genre itself.
In terms of usually you kind of introduced the two monsters kind of separately.
They have their first fight.
They go off with somewhat of a draw.
Or maybe one of them having an upper hand.
(11:21):
And then they have another little mini adventure, each on their own.
And then they come back for a final conflict at the end.
That's a big kind of convention and trope and structure of the genre.
And that's created in this movie, King Kong vs.
Godzilla.
And the two would cross paths again in 2021.
Godzilla versus Kong, which is one of 2020 one's highest grossing films.
(11:44):
There's even a lot of claims.
As I was doing a lot of my research.
I came across this being repeated over and over and over.
As I was either reading books.
Or clicking through some links or watching some YouTube videos.
I came across a lot of claims that Kong was actually Japan's very first kaiju.
And one of the reasons I brought Matt in was to talk a little bit more about that.
(12:06):
Because it's not maybe as entirely true as a lot of those claims say.
Yeah, there's two films that most people to claim that Kong was Japan's first guide you.
The first is King Kong made in Japan.
And then you have King Kong appears in Edo.
And the first King Kong made in Japan.
(12:27):
Is actually, like, not at all a traditional kaiju film in the way that we think of it.
The movie's plot is actually about a struggling and homeless man.
Who is in love with a woman.
But he can't be with her due to his lack of livelihood.
And so he creates this vaudeville show.
And he basically wears his concealed, destroys miniatures to try to make money.
And then to be able to marry his love.
(12:48):
This is actually a short film made by the studio shoot.
And that was actually the same company.
That dubbed the original American 1933 Kong film into Japanese for a theatrical release.
This film actually was specifically designed to be shown before the screenings of the American King Kong film.
It was not a kaiju film by any stretch of the imagination.
(13:11):
And actually, probably the most interesting thing I think about the film.
Is that it's believed to be lost forever.
Because it was destroyed in the atomic bombing of Hiroshima.
And then you have the second of these films, the King lost film, which is the 138 King Kong appears in Edo.
And it's got a bit more uncertainty swirling around it.
The movie definitely isn't about the King Kong that we know as a giant ape from Sky Island.
(13:35):
Just appearing in cheaper Japan and wreaking havoc.
Rather, it's the name of a pet ape of the film's main antagonist.
Who kidnaps the daughter of a feudal Lord.
There's some publicity stills and they've shown this Cong as both giant and human size, which is kind of adding to some of the confusion.
And the suit actor, he actually wants to use the word giant to describe the ape, but that could easily just be a reference to the size of an ape as being able to kill a human.
(14:01):
So though not certain, it's pretty unlikely that this was a true Kaiju film.
And again, unfortunately, like the previous film was actually forever lost due to the bombing of Hiroshima.
Interesting.
Yeah.
And for even more on those movies and a whole bunch of other King Kong movies, some made, some unmade, some concepts of ones that eventually wound up being made.
(14:25):
And where those concepts permutated from, you can refer to the book Kong Unmade, the Lost Films of Skull Island by John LeMay that actually has input, Matt from your co-host at Kaiju Transmissions, Kyle Bird.
But yeah, with all that cleared up, really, the most important piece to take away from all of this is that Kong is wildly popular worldwide and in Japan in particular.
(14:51):
And this inspires a great many Japanese content creators.
Take, for instance, just offhand Donkey Kong that's named Donkey Kong a due to, like they said, he was stubborn like a donkey.
But then the Kong part of it is his resemblance to King Kong.
So this inspiration of King Kong, like we said, and we'll probably say again and again, he watches movies and TV while he works.
(15:20):
It extends to Toriyama as well.
Now, originally, Toriyama called this ape form Kaibutsu Zaru, which just means ape monster.
And he used Kaibutzu rather than kaiju to denote that there's a difference between this monster.
And like the giant monster from monster movies, though, Kibutuzaro is a giant, to be sure, it's not meant to be like a city smashing giant like Godzilla.
(15:48):
So it's like not quite the same scale.
It's later that he coined the term Ozaru, and he sticks with that moving forward, kind of as we've seen before, he forgets what he names things or he changes his mind as time goes on.
The o in front of a word in Japanese usually means great or large and is also a hominem for King.
(16:09):
So it's another way to play on words for Toriyama denoting it as large ape or like King of the apes.
Yeah.
And it's also an uncommon or not uncommon, excuse me, a common naming convention for unnamed kaiju that appear immediate.
So, like specifically the Godzilla franchise, one particular example would be the Oodaku, which is from the King Congress of Godzilla film Daku, meaning octopus and Japanese.
(16:37):
So there's some blurring of the lines between the older uzaru and traditional kaiju.
And then Furthermore, in the show Altar Cue, which, by the way, I can't recommend that show enough.
If you ever want to check out something Ultraman related, Ultra Queue is a great place to start.
That's two recommendations.
It's magnificent and it's cheap.
(16:59):
It's like $11 for Ultra Q and like $9 for Neo Ultra Q.
Yes, they're both wonderful, but the second episode of Ultra Queue features a pet monkey who winds up growing huge and edgy.
Tsuburaya reused a Kong suit from King Kong vs Godzilla, but he actually added big ears and a tail, and at one point in the episode it is referred to as Ozaru, right? You can see when you start stacking these things on top of each other, it's pretty clear where Toyama's drawing his influences from with the big ears and the tail and the more human stature.
(17:35):
And we've shown over and over how influenced by TV and movies he is, whether unconsciously or consciously, and whether he admits it or not.
And speaking of admitting things, Toriyama openly admits he wanted a transformation in his manga, and he says he originally intended for the transformation to be more human sized and similar to a Wolf Man because he's a big fan of the 1941 Universal Studios Wolfman movie, which duh, so am I.
(18:06):
There's another one I can't recommend highly enough if for some reason you've never checked it out.
But however, when Toriyama kind of realizes the situation he's put our characters in and he needs the transformation to be bigger to get them out of their jam, he utilizes causing the Full Moon to cause the transformation to retain that homage to the Wolf Man.
(18:28):
So even the congee that Toriyama chooses to use for Full Moon, those are more traditional and they actually specifically denote a reflection of the moon in one's eyes.
So there is where you kind of get your whole Toriyama blending this tradition of Sun Wukong with the more modern Kong and obviously the even more modern than Kong Ultra queue, as well as this Western monster movie in this fusion of cultures, and he creates something new with it.
(18:59):
Additionally, with regards to the moon aspect, the use of the moon as a counter agent to Peel offs plan to Bake our heroes in the sun is sort of like a Yin Yang opposition.
In Kanji, the symbols for Yin and Yang even contain the symbols for Moon and sun respectively.
So it's likely that Toriyama is aware of this Yin Yang aspect, and he's playing on it by having the murderous rage fuelled Ozaroo of Yin energy burst forth from the innocent kind observable Yang of Goku.
(19:27):
The Ozaroo being unknown to Goku is part of an ancient Chinese belief that within each Shishen or Knowing self there exists potentially several foul Yuan Shen, or Assistant Spirit elves that can assist or influence the conscious self in difficult times or just in general as a sleepwalker.
Kind of like calling on your ancestors type thing, if you will.
(19:51):
So while these Assistant spirits are fully aware of the Knowing Self, it is only those with highly adapted skills and intense training who can consciously tap into and communicate with their Fuyuan Shen.
Yeah, and that'll kind of Interestingly come into play much later when we get into Z and talking more about Vegeta, I think.
(20:12):
But as for why the tale needs to be cut off to end the transformation, that's pretty simple.
Toriyama just hated drawing it.
And again, he's notoriously kind of lazy and so he even said he was just trying to think of a way from the outset and a reason to get rid of the tail almost as soon as he started working on Dragon Ball and he was like, this will be a good opportunity and he has the tail just get cut off.
(20:37):
Obviously there's a running theme in this show or in this manga of the creator just being like, I don't want to do that.
That's too much work.
That's where a lot of transformations end up coming from, too.
I don't want to explain how they get that strong.
We'll just make it a transformation.
It's fine.
(20:58):
Yeah.
The whole reason Super Saiyan looks the way it does is because Toriyama got tired of coloring in Goku's hair.
That's perfect.
Let's just talk about this form a little bit more.
It's hard now to separate it from what we know about Goku as a Saiyan and an alien and this being intrinsically tied to his race.
(21:27):
For me, it was always linked to that alien nature.
I never thought of it as more of a mystical thing like it is during its initial appearance.
I totally get it now, and I think it works just as well either way.
I don't know about you guys, but like, just me, for instance, when you're watching this show very often throughout, especially in the very early goings, and this is kind of one of those things where it's almost better that it gets dropped.
(21:58):
Maybe after the second or third episode, I forget when it is.
But very early on, Bulma makes a big to do about the tale, and then she even is shocked when Goku can kind of use it like it's prehensile and then the whole element to his character gets dropped and I feel like you mostly forget about it, except for the one point where Chichi grabs his tail and it makes him weak.
(22:23):
It kind of then works, then it makes it feel like it was really well set up.
That, oh, there's something weird about this kid.
He's not 100% just a normal human being.
So it works on that mystical level.
But for me, it's hard to separate it from the alien nature.
I had the exact same experience because you always tied back to what the Saiyans can transform, and they use this as a way to conquer planets, which is what kind of the intent is in the and then when you watch it in this and you would never have that inclination other than Goku just isn't fully human.
(22:59):
But I agree with you, it does work both ways.
And I actually think I've watched Dragon Ball in a very long time.
But I actually rewatched the first 13 episodes in preparation for coming on tonight.
They set it up really well.
They set the story up for him and the relation to what happens to his grandfather.
But you never kind of piece together anything until this episode.
(23:21):
I think the story is told in a way that it's believable.
It's a lot of fun.
And also they don't make a big deal of the tale.
But also like, Dragon Ball has a bunch of weird talking animals too.
So like, it doesn't really throw you for a loop the way that it could maybe in other shows.
I'm saying as you guys, I think it works both ways, but I wouldn't mind talking to somebody who was introduced this through Dragon Ball first and going through the whole thing chronologically as to how it hit them when it's revealed in Z that he's an alien because it would just hit differently for somebody who was introduced to Goku when he was still a kid.
(24:03):
It is weird, right? I mean, that's the big reason why there's a delineation between Dragon Ball and Z.
It's not the age difference of Goku, because towards the end of Dragon Ball, you get a fairly significant time jump and you get Goku as a I don't want to say full adult yet, but he's in his very early adulthood, right.
(24:29):
When you get the final tournament arc that's in Dragon Ball, but that is still Dragon Ball.
We don't consider that time jump to be part of a different show.
And I think really the key difference is Dragon Ball is more mystical and more these things are happening because of traditions and because of Japanese and Chinese traditions, and it's all springing forth from this journey to the west, whereas Z then gives some of these things more practical explanations.
(25:04):
Matt and I are both tied into the Kaiju world a little bit when people always want an explanation for how King Kong got so big or something.
It's sort of like Toriyama is giving that answer, but at least he's doing some fun and interesting things with it.
Yeah.
There's a group of like, I'm just going to call it kind of idiotic fans and they're always upset.
(25:29):
How did Khan grow from 100ft tall to 400ft or whatever he is in the next movie? And it's like, I don't think that question is actually worth asking, let alone answering.
But you're right, Tom.
That's exactly what that is.
Don't question it.
Just enjoy the movie.
So I'm going to ask Matt a question and it's going to blow his brains, but I'm going to try to qualify the question afterwards and maybe make it not as triggering for him.
(26:08):
I'm triggered.
I think what I really kind of mean by that is can you see those influences in this form? Feel free to use other appearances of it as well.
(26:29):
But can you see the influences of Kong and that episode of Ultra Q.
I forget what the monkey's actual name in it? Is it Goro or Godo or something? Gogo or something like that? Yeah, it starts with a G.
We know that for $11 you could find out at home.
(26:55):
Man, Mill Creek needs to give me a job.
But no, I mean, you think that stuff kind of shows its face in this? I do, yeah.
I'm trying to think of how to answer this without like going on a kaiju tangent here.
That's why I brought you on, though.
(27:18):
Okay, so there's this whole thing on Twitter where somebody was like, hey, is Clifford the Big Red Dog a kaiju? And all they're saying is he's a big dog and if the monster is big, they must then also be a kaiju.
That's their very loose definition of what a kaiju is.
But kaiju is supposed to be more of like strange beast.
(27:40):
And then you add the giant component, later on it becomes die kaiju.
I would say that the influences of Kong, the size of the beast, the fact that later on they actually give him like this beam that he can shoot from his mouth.
Yeah, it's absolutely a kaiju, but like, is that a Hill that I want to die on? No, it's not.
(28:00):
But I think the answer would be, yeah, like the influences of Congress and they're obvious and they're intentional.
And then you have him, he's as big as a Castle, he's ripping things apart.
And then later in the you have like, Gohan destroying everything in front of Piccolo.
You find out that the Sands are actually using this form as a way to conquer planets because they go into these unstoppable rage Fest and they start shooting this beam that like basically creates atomic bomb explosions.
(28:30):
So like, they're definitely monsters and they're definitely kaiju.
But I don't know that I'd argue with somebody over it if they thought differently, right? Yeah, I think because they'd obviously be wrong.
Right.
I think you can see the influences of it throughout too.
Right.
This isn't one of those things where the first time we see it, it's just very like kaiju.
(28:54):
It's destroying a city type of thing.
And then the next time we see it, granted, the next couple of times we see it, it's not destroying cities, it's in like just barren, Rocky wastelands.
Actually one exception because the very next time we see it actually is at a world martial arts tournament.
(29:14):
But even there, it's not like destroying cities.
So where it kind of comes into play more in these later episodes is when the Ozaru is interacting with people and crushing them and stepping on them and things like that, which are all things that you could see in Kong, specifically in the 1933 original, is really the only one that has like an extended sequence where Kong runs amok in the village, not just in New York City, but in the village when he first breaks out of the gate on Skull Island and he's kind of stamping the dude into the muck and all that kind of stuff.
(29:57):
Those images are somewhat similar.
So one other thing that's happened is we see this pop up, this transformation spoiler alert pops up again in the very near future, like somewhere in the next 20 or 30 episodes for sure.
(30:19):
And then it does pop up again later in Z when Vegeta uses it and Gohan gets accidentally triggered before.
But since then in Dragon Ball Cannon, it has been largely forgotten about.
I don't know.
Does that bother you guys at all? Do you feel like it's been forgotten, ignored, disrespected? Would you like to see it come back? Any thoughts on that? I'm a little disappointed that the only time they ever tried to do anything with it was in GT with the Super Saiyan four transformation, which was just a pretty neat idea though.
(31:05):
I like that idea at its core in GT.
I don't know about you guys, but the idea that cutting off your tail does limit your full potential.
Yeah, I do like that idea and I do like the idea of GT.
I don't love as a whole, but they actually took something that had basically been forgotten about and they tried to bring it to the forefront.
(31:29):
And I think there were a lot of stories that they could have told using the Ozaroo.
There's just a bunch of stuff you could have done with it.
And I don't know if it was just like, not interesting because honestly, the fight between Goku and Vegeta and the great ape form is actually pretty fun to watch.
And you have this, like the Bardock movie has some of it as well.
(31:52):
So there's some stuff they could have done.
Would you sit down and watch a movie with a bunch of say it's conquering a planet and transforming? Like, of course you would.
I think there's things that were left on the table, but I also understand the focus is going to be on the smaller, the humanoid sized characters and them fighting, but I think they left a lot of potential stories on the table by basically just throwing this away and forgetting about it.
(32:17):
I think I would have really liked to have seen two Ozarus fight each other.
Now you're talking Matt's language.
I think that would have been interesting.
Or another example would be like Lord Slug how he makes himself gigantic.
It would be interesting if they countered that with one of the Saiyans using their roof form to fight him.
(32:40):
I think that would be pretty cool too.
That would be fun.
Yeah, that would have been pretty cool.
Yeah.
Massive spoiler alert.
Because I don't know if either of you have kept up at all with where the manga is as of right now, and I don't even talk about where it is as of right now.
While we're recording.
But beyond the end of the super anime, there's a character named Moro.
(33:04):
And again, I only know like little bits and pieces because I plan on reading the manga and stuff as we're going through this show.
So now I'm like, oh, that's something for me to look forward to.
I only know what I know from what I've seen of little things.
But he, I guess becomes, does he become gigantic or he becomes part of a planet or something to that effect.
(33:27):
And that would be a perfect opportunity to bring this form back in some way.
But they don't do that.
Have either of you kept up with heroes at all? Dragon Ball heroes? No.
So it does come back sort of in that.
But like, I guess Dragon Ball is the extended multiverse thing or whatever because they're just bringing in different timelines of these Dragon Ball characters.
(33:56):
Listen, there's no plot, it's just people show up and fight.
But it's fun to watch if you have a few minutes.
It's like every episode is maybe 1012 minutes long.
So it's also pretty short.
Definitely worth checking out.
Yeah, I'm familiar with the show's existence.
I know it's not considered Canon for whatever Canon means.
(34:22):
That's like a whole other kind of discussion even.
Because even within Canon there can be your own interpretations of it.
And the extent to which any of it there's a billion timelines and Dragon Ball.
Yeah.
And the extent to which any of it actually matters at the end of the day really is up to you.
I mean, think about what is Canon and how many people have never experienced.
(34:46):
There are so many people who have never experienced the Dragon Ball portion of Dragon Ball, they're missing out.
Oh, I know for sure.
But yeah, it's not at all uncommon.
Probably the first like ten years I was into the franchise, I had only seen Z and possibly GT.
(35:10):
I never had seen the original.
For however much Canon matters, you can pick and choose your own Cannon in something as vast and sprawling as the world of Dragon Ball.
But yeah, again, that's kind of another one of those things.
I've never checked out heroes, but that's like another Avenue for us to explore eventually on this show.
(35:34):
It's on.
That's what makes this show so great.
We can go anywhere.
So would you say the consensus here is that the Ozaroo is the vestigial tale of Dragon Ball that gets cut off and forgotten about? Yes.
I mean, it is.
(35:59):
This is another one of those things where we could have a much longer discussion and I kind of don't know how much I want to because we could even have this whole discussion another time of power levels and power multipliers and things like that.
Because in Dragon Ball it has been so much more.
(36:20):
This is even just my understanding.
Right.
I'm not even 100% sure what all the power levels are.
But my understanding is that it has been fairly outlined along the way.
Like this person's power level at this point is 600 and at this point it's 6 million and then it's 6 billion and then it's six decadlian.
(36:42):
You know, one of the reasons I guess you could argue that this form has been forgotten is that it's a ten X multiplier to your strength, which like, okay, Goku can kaioken times 20.
Yeah.
But giant red monkey, though, that would be awesome.
(37:05):
Again.
Yes.
I do think there's a place for it and it's just been forgotten and I don't know if it's been forgotten.
I'm not sure why, because if this was something that was only in Dragon Ball and not in Z, I could very much say, oh, it's because it's in that more mystical part of the show.
(37:31):
And then it was just dumped.
But one of the franchise's most popular characters has one of his most iconic early moments, some of his most iconic early moments in this form.
And it's never seen again.
(37:52):
So I'm not sure why it's been dropped, because there are opportunities, I think, to bring it back in some form.
Yeah.
I'd like to see it come back.
I think it'd be awesome.
And I don't know if it's because the show just is kind of, I don't want to say devolved that's such a nasty word to use, but shifted its focus more to being a more interpersonal battle driven thing.
(38:23):
Because one of the things Dragon Ball and I keep saying we're going to talk about this another time, but we will talk about this another time.
One of the things Dragon Ball really revolutionized and kind of perfected, too, in manga and storytelling and anime is fighting and the interpersonal fight and these fights are yet the fights themselves are glorious and gorgeous, especially in the anime.
(38:49):
A lot of times there's just some fights where the animation and everything is just beautiful to look at and so much fun and so entertaining.
And that's always an entertaining thing.
Right.
That's why Kung Fu films are so popular, because watching two people Duke it out and test their abilities against each other, even in an animated form is just really entertaining.
And so maybe the shows become more focused on that piece of it and less focused on monsters.
(39:17):
Really.
It's become more focused on the stories you can tell.
But I still think you could tell stories of an interpersonal nature through kaiju media.
And there's plenty of movies out there that show that that's possible.
Yeah.
And I think Matt is going to agree with me on a couple of these that I'm about to list off and maybe he's got some others.
(39:42):
But even recent movies like Colossal or a recent show like Godzilla singular point shows that you can have something that got kaiju in it and lots of kaiju in it, even at times, but tells a personal story.
Yeah.
(40:02):
In Monster Zero, which is one of my favorite Godzilla films, you have these characters that are very much at the forefront with the monsters kind of in the background, and the monsters are dictating where the story goes.
But it's not until the end of the film that the monsters really come out and shine.
But by the time that you get there, your characters have been so established in this very.
(40:23):
I mean, it's a very personal story, and it's about, like, I'm trying to not give a toss analysis here, but the way it plays out is very personal, heartfelt meaningful with these characters.
And when the monsters show up, the stakes have been raised, because now you care about the people in front of you versus some what you consider, like, Bmovie monsters, where you don't care about what's on screen, you just want to see monsters kill things.
(40:46):
Monster Zero is the opposite of that.
You care about the people.
You're there to see the people first.
And that's not something you can say about every monster movie, but it's those kinds of stories that if you adapt into, like, Dragon Ball or even like Dragon Ball Z, you could do a lot of really awesome stuff with.
Yeah.
And I think one of the reasons that potentially arguably the most popular usage of this form is when Vegeta uses it is because, A, he's more antagonistic, but B, he's more aware of himself when he's in his Ozaroo form.
(41:21):
And so you get a very personal story that's going on within it.
Yes.
The Ozaroo in its initial appearance is just crazy WTF moment.
Like Bikini said, I really wish you could go back and experience this without knowing that's coming for the first time, because it's a huge WTF.
(41:49):
It comes out of nowhere.
It's a major left turn and a major curveball.
And not only that, but it doesn't just solely rely on the twist, because there's also that deeper layer to it.
Right.
Of learning something about Goku and learning something tragic about his past.
(42:11):
He is the one who unknowingly killed his own grandfather.
That I think the reason I even forgot about briefly appearing in the Budokai Tenkaichi, or whatever it's called the World Martial Arts Tournament, is that that has a less personal, driven focus to it.
(42:33):
Right.
It's just a kind of fun actiony moment.
And then later you get the thing with Vegeta.
I think you could very easily bring it back again and have it hit that more personal level.
And that's really the roots of the kaiju genre as a whole, too, because, yes, King Kong is the granddaddy of them all and everything, but the genre really becomes a genre with the Godzilla franchise before that.
(43:06):
You've got your outliers, you got your King Kong, The Lost World.
There's a few others, but the roots of this go back to Godzilla.
And even in probably the first five, maybe six, maybe seven Kaiju movies in general, that Toho make they're all very human driven stories.
(43:27):
And to kind of expand on your thought here about having those sort of interpersonal moments sort of punctuate what's going on with this monster.
We also do kind of have that in this episode where we've got Peel off working with his underlings instead of like constantly berating them to try and escape the Castle and defend it against this giant ape.
(43:49):
You've got Yamcha momentarily getting over his fear of women to help Bulma escape danger.
You've got Oolong putting someone else's well being before his own, but also trying to help Bulma escape.
You have Bulma being a little bit more Proactive in looking after herself as opposed to trying to get somebody else to do what needs to be done all the time.
(44:11):
And I think it ties in really well with that theme that you guys are talking about of having these more personal level stories with this giant monster rampaging as a backdrop.
Yeah.
I wonder, this is like almost like a chicken or an egg type of thing.
Did Toriyama kind of lose interest in Kaiju movies? And so he just kind of lost interest in bringing this form back and using it to tell these stories? Or did the idea of what a Kaiju movie is because if you talk to most people, even people who claim to be fans of the genre, they'll say, I'm just here to see the monsters fight, and that's not at all a dissimilar thing from what you hear in Dragon Ball, a lot of times I'm just here for the fights.
(44:58):
Did he lose interest in the genre because he just kind of lost interest in it and so it just kind of faded away, or did he become so aware of it being all about the fights and losing its focus on the human element of it that it's just that kind of influenced him? Like, I don't like where that genre is going anymore, and if I have to bring that into my art, then I have to bring those tropes in and I don't want to.
(45:25):
It's kind of an interesting question and thought it's tough to say, and given Toriyama's behavior, we'll probably never know.
I was going to say you kind of get the sort of the inverse right with the Saiyans attacking the planet earlier where Napa fights the giant grasshopper thing.
In that particular little story, which I think might be a filler episode, I'm not actually sure, but you have the giant creature of Arlia defending the planet and he actually fights Napa and he gets obliterated.
(45:57):
But that's actually kind of a cooler moment which shows me like, you could have done that in a meaningful way with characters that we care about.
You could have continued the tradition of like, I think you're right.
Probably the most memorable appearance of the Oozaru is actually Vegeta's appearance because he's self aware, he can speak he's like insulting Goku as he's basically torturing him and things.
(46:21):
But imagine that story retold from again, like planet being dominated by Sands and the people having to cope with it.
Or like maybe it's the inverse where Sane gets left behind on the planet, decides not to destroy it, and then becomes an Ozaru to save them from a different conquering alien force or something.
I mean there's a bunch of stuff you can do with it.
Yeah.
(46:42):
I think the most interesting potential future for this, if they ever brought it back would be to have either.
I would say Goku.
Most likely he's Goku to have him turn into the Oozaru and have to learn how to Vegeta has to somehow reach him in his mind to be able to get him to use it.
(47:07):
And then you could also tell a story about it being a complete force for good.
Right.
Because we've only ever seen it as an antagonistic force in Dragon Ball.
True.
And so it'd be an interesting inversion, which I was surprised a little bit then that Toriyama never brought it back because he loves inverting things.
(47:30):
Right.
He loves subverting expectations and things and to have him end up bringing it back later and everyone thinks it's going to be like this like rampaging wild beast.
And to have it be like a protector would be a really interesting play and inversion, but it just hasn't happened yet.
Maybe it will come back eventually.
And like Matt said, it even has kind of appeared again in Dragon Ball Heroes.
(47:54):
So you know, there's potential and there's never no hope with a franchise as long running and gigantic as this.
Well, plus you have the Saints from other universes now so they could have benevolent who's or who's for all we know.
Correct.
I think that's it.
(48:15):
I don't know if anyone else has anything to add.
I do have one small thing I wanted to bring up has absolutely nothing to do with Kaiju.
Okay.
I thought it was adorable that Peel off shares a bedroom with Mayan Shoe.
I did watch that.
I was like oh, that's an interesting choice.
(48:38):
It made me chuckle because he's got this huge Castle.
Yeah.
And he shares his bedroom with two other people.
Great.
Yeah.
It's a good episode.
I mentioned this is a good I think I mentioned it last episode.
Like this is a very good final episode for a season one or arc one or whatever because it does leave things open for a sequel for sure.
(49:07):
But if we never saw these characters again after this point, that would also be okay.
Like the arc and everything.
Their stories are very kind of completed at this point.
And I know people who know all the adventures that have we've gone on since and all the growth and drastic increases in power level that Goku still has yet to do are going to be like what he's going off to train.
(49:33):
That's such a tease.
But when we talk about as we've been for the last several episodes of the show, talking about Goku as a character, he's the flat character.
He knows his truth already.
He doesn't have anything really to learn left about himself and all the characters that he has interacted with in this first arc.
(49:56):
Their stories are at least for what they've built up to this point completed.
Yeah.
With that said, thanks, Matt, for joining us.
Do you got a plug or something you want to throw in? Yeah, actually.
So you can find our show Kaiju Transmissions.
We are on Facebook.
(50:18):
We have our Twitter account, which is KT_Podcast.
And then we also have and I don't know when this episode is going to drop, but we have Kaiju Masterclass that we're part of.
We're actually putting on an online convention with several Japanese actors, directors, and that's going to be online through YouTube.
And that's Kaiju Masterclass.
(50:40):
Yeah.
And I'll chime in here and say that this will probably not air before that goes live.
But whether you're coming to this before or after Kaiju Masterclass goes live, those interviews and those things will be on YouTube forever, or at least until YouTube takes them down or something, or until the heat death of the universe.
(51:07):
So you can go back and watch any of them.
And just speaking from past experience, there's been some really good if you're interested in this stuff at all, some extremely good interviews with some of the filmmakers of Godzilla and Gamora movies, people involved with the Ultraman series.
(51:28):
There's been one of the interviews because this is not the math, but this is not the first Kaiju Masterclass that has happened.
So you can go back and watch the old ones, too.
There's an interview with Bear McCreary, who did the score on the Godzilla King of the Monsters movie.
So there's a lot of very varied takes from different content creators who are officially or semi officially involved with this Kaiju genre as a whole.
(52:01):
So feel free to just go over to YouTube and search for Kaiju Masterclass and peruse at your leisure, because there's some really cool stuff in there.
And again, you can check out the podcast as well.
Kaiju Transmissions.
We will talk all kinds of craziness giant monsters, and it's a lot of fun.
And you get to hear Jelly self come on and join us from time to time.
(52:26):
Yes.
I'm a mainstay in October there.
You set up residence in October every single year.
Yes.
Thanks for joining us, Matt.
We'll let you get going now.
Thanks for having me.
Hey, I've been meaning to ask you earlier, you said, oh, my roots.
(52:47):
What was that about your people part plant or something more on the or something side, but sure, it's just a common exclamation of surprise.
Well, my breath is fully caught.
How about yours? I guess.
But aren't those things still outside? It doesn't sound like it.
Why don't I push this rock out of the way and you take a peek? Oh, man, do I have to we could venture into this cave instead.
(53:32):
What was that noise? Which mystery would you rather solve? Whether the crickets are out there or whatever is back in there.
Pass.
Just get out there and take a look.
Okay.
But if I get killed I'm not going to be happy.
Neither will I.
I guess I quit stalling.
(53:58):
Okay.
Let me just take a minute.
Nope.
Oh, you son of a.
Hey, everything actually looks okay out here.
You sure? Yeah.
Wait.
(54:24):
Well, listeners, I guess I'll take my leave of you here.
I probably shouldn't have simulated that roar and forced bikini to go outside but I thought it would be faster to take the direct route than fumbling around in this cave.
Will Bekinney manage to escape the giant crickets bearing down on him? Will I find my way through this cave back to my ship? Will you be able to reach your final form find out next time and help us achieve our final forum.
(55:17):
Final form is written and produced by Tom Gueli.
It is performed by Dan Kinney and Tom Gueli.
Our webmaster is Dan Kinney.
Our theme music is provided by YouTube content creator GVGKid.
Want to learn more about the Dragon Ball universe including concept art, behind the scenes interviews and recommendations from Jelly and beginning? Connect with us on social media like us on Facebook follow us on Twitter at finalforum pod make sure to subscribe, rate and review wherever you receive your podcast and of course make sure to share with your friends and family and help us spread the word of the glory of Lord Frieza the freezer force.
(55:56):
Thanks you for your listenership.
(56:19):
You.
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