Ever wondered how a business can pivot and flourish despite a global pandemic? Our guest, Nick Collins, CEO of Cleverchefs and Epic Caterers, shows us exactly how it's done. From starting with a month's pay to running a business with over 600 staff members, Nick's journey is an inspiring tale of consistency, adaptability, and sheer determination.
Nick reveals how his catering business faced the biggest challenge when COVID hit. But did it stop him? No. Instead, he transformed it into an opportunity to create a new division in his business that not only increased sales but clinched several contracts. His nimble adaptability allowed his business to thrive, even as he and his team delivered over 800 orders on VE day. Prepare to be amazed by his remarkable story of resilience and innovation.
But running a successful business isn't just about the numbers. It's also about the balance between work and personal life. Listen in as Nick shares valuable insights on time management and the importance of taking breaks. He talks candidly about his ambitious goal to build a £50 million pound company in the next four years. With an unwavering focus on continual learning and development, Nick Collins' intriguing journey in the hospitality industry is a testament to his passion and dedication. Join us for an engrossing conversation that promises a wealth of insights for business owners and food enthusiasts alike.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
On today's exciting episode, we have the founder and
CEO of Cleversheps and EpicCaters, nick Collins.
His business over the lasteight years has grown from
strength to strength, with over600 staff and a multi-million
pound turnover business.
He talks about his journey andsome of the ups and downs of
running a business that we allknow about.
(00:20):
This was a great chat with Nick, so sit back and enjoy the
episode and don't forget tofollow and leave us a review, as
this helps us grow and reachmore people.
We asked you the morning howare we Good morning.
(00:42):
How are you Good, nick?
You well, very good.
Thank you, short hop for youfrom the office.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
I expected here, just round the corner, just in the
centre of town.
Speaker 3 (00:55):
It's nice having people in the office.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
We looked at the centre of town, didn't we?
The parking was a big thing forus.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
We're going to be moving next year.
It's a bit of a short termthing.
So instead of moving to town,how?
Speaker 3 (01:04):
long is that listening, is it?
Speaker 1 (01:06):
Instead of moving to town, we move 50 yards.
That's easy then, basically asa crow flies.
Speaker 3 (01:11):
We'll talk about that later.
It was not easy.
Speaker 1 (01:13):
We'll talk about that later.
So I guess just the list iskind of no Bit of an intro into
you.
Give us a rundown who you are,what you do.
We're all started.
Speaker 2 (01:28):
I'm the founder and CEO of Clevesheps Group, which
has two brands in thehospitality world.
We've got Clevesheps, which isa contract caterer, has
contracts with workplaces,education and leisure facilities
all across pretty much the UK.
It's got about 90 sites.
(01:48):
And then we've got EpicCaterers, which is our wedding
and event brand.
We do about six to sevenhundred events and weddings a
year, private dinners and reallyhigh-end sort of luxury event
catering.
Speaker 3 (02:05):
Six hundred.
Speaker 2 (02:07):
Yeah, we've got a really great team, is that?
Speaker 3 (02:09):
condensed into a certain period in the calendar
year, is there more in June toJuly, august and there is in
February.
Speaker 2 (02:18):
Absolutely.
It does peak in the summermonths, as you'd expect, but
over the years a lot in midweek,a lot in the winter, now making
a thing of winter weddings.
Speaker 1 (02:30):
You've seen a lot more midweek.
I went to a Monday weddingrecently.
I've done some Wednesday ones,Thursdays, but I actually did a
Monday one.
It was great actually.
It was kind of like.
Speaker 2 (02:40):
If you booked a time off work, why not?
Once you're in a wedding, itcan be any day.
Speaker 3 (02:44):
I always like to stay the night as well, yeah take a
couple of days off Does it makeit easier as a business person
then to have that segmented out.
So rather than having all ofthe work done every Friday,
saturday, sunday in August, ifyou're getting a Tuesday wedding
in February, at least you knowstaff wise and all that there is
continuity and it's easier tomanage that way than all bulked
(03:07):
into a certain shorter timeperiod.
Speaker 2 (03:10):
There's pros and cons to it.
It's nice to spread it out overthe year, definitely, but then
you don't get some of the staffthat you might get easier to get
staff on a weekend, usually incollege or uni or working in the
week and then you think thatspreading out maybe 10, 12
weddings over a week might be abetter idea, but actually you
(03:31):
need the team in the kitchenprepping it.
So there's pros and cons toeach way, really.
But it's good that we've got aconsistent sort of business
across the year.
The key to our success in thathas been consistency with our
team on the ground.
Epic Katers is called EpicKaters because our team are just
epic.
What they do is unbelievablehow they produce the high-end
(03:54):
food they do consistently.
Speaker 3 (03:57):
Do you get what they call the Bridesillers?
Is there strange requests everynow and again?
Speaker 2 (04:02):
Absolutely.
I mean, I miss I do the part ofmy job.
We've been going about eightyears now.
I do miss actually handling theBrides and Grooms myself.
It's funny we were actuallytalking about it yesterday.
We had a bit of a senior teammeeting in the Epic HQ and we
used to say we could write downwhat Brides and Grooms are going
to say before they come in thebuilding for our first
consultation, because they allsay the same thing.
(04:25):
But yeah, you do get the oddview that you want something.
But that's what we do, that'swhat we were about making dreams
happen really and making itdifferent.
Speaker 1 (04:35):
Yeah, it's because you tailor it to what someone
wants.
Speaker 2 (04:38):
Yeah it's got to be.
When I started doing theWeddings of Events, that was the
starting block for us and thatwas the rub.
Really.
It's your biggest day After ahouse, is probably the most
you're going to spend on any dayor anything, and it's emotional
.
They've both even the Grooms.
(04:59):
They've dreamed of this day fora long time and that's very
rare.
There's not many days you dreamof having.
Not everyone's like that, someis just a bit of a day, but some
people you can see in theireyes this is the day, their
hopes and dreams, what theywanted it to be.
So to live up to that isincredibly difficult, but we do
(05:21):
it time and time again.
But to deliver someone when thewedding's over and you look at
them and they've had a few todrink or they're having a laugh
and they're with all their dearones, there's nothing.
Speaker 1 (05:32):
There's no better feeling Amazing and the food
plays a huge part in a wedding,doesn't it?
Definitely?
Now, absolutely, it's thebuffet I look forward to with
the evening.
Usually, what I find is theactual main meals, a little bit
small on size for my liking, butthe buffies where I make my
money back, yeah, no, that'sfair point and that's kind of
(05:52):
like where you find me in thefront of the queue you're
normally.
If I'm not the front of queue,there's usually something wrong.
Speaker 2 (05:57):
Yeah Well, it's got to be an eating experience.
It's a long day, isn't it?
You know you need to have somehighlights.
Speaker 1 (06:03):
Yeah, exactly, it's a kind of big thing.
So eight years ago you startedthe business yeah, we're.
I guess we did all start priorto that and you know, I guess,
the love of food and cooking andI assume you've been in the
catering industry for a longtime.
Speaker 2 (06:18):
Yeah, so being a chef , well, since I was 16.
So yeah, like 24 years now orsomething.
So yeah, I'd been a chef for along time in some great places,
which in France, on some yachts,london Michelin Star Kitchens
and the contract catering worlditself and weddings and events.
And yeah, just just I've beenon Mars Chef the professionals
(06:42):
and real foodie, real, you know,really passionate about
creative foods, making it lookgood, making it taste good.
So, yeah, never really had amassive desire to sort of go out
on my own.
If I'm honest, I think everychef's got that burning desire
to sort of open a restaurant andI haven't had that all my
career.
I wanted to sort of I'd ratherhave been at the top of a big
(07:02):
company and sort of take thelead there as a chef and use my
food there.
But yeah, and a situationhappened, you know, an
opportunity arose and I justgrabbed it, really started, you
know, literally with a month'spay for my previous job, no
loans, no, nothing, wow, andyeah, just a few luck along the
(07:23):
way, right place, right time andhard work.
Speaker 3 (07:26):
No, as a business, as a business owner, there's no
such thing as luck.
It's it's predominantly hardwork.
I don't think luck.
Speaker 2 (07:33):
How do you work the luck you get?
Yeah, for like I think, yeah, Ithink I think a lot of people
work hard, yeah, and like theydon't make the break.
I think, yeah, you've got towork hard, there's got to be,
there's got to be.
I was talking about the otherday.
It's like a cauldron.
You've got to have quite a lotof things in there, yes, but I'm
quite conscious.
Yeah, you know, I'm good atwhat I do and I'm passionate and
(07:57):
I'm hardworking.
So they're definitely what youneed to succeed in any business.
But I know definitely there'ssnippets along the way where
I've either met the right personor had the right break.
That you know, if I hadn't beenin that position that time or
end up being that place, I mightnot be where I am now.
So I always hold that.
I always try and stay humblewith it, because you know, I'm
(08:18):
really, really proud of what wegot.
Yeah, sometimes you get a bitof imposter syndrome.
You like, hang on a minute,what might do?
What is what?
Have I grown in, grown thiscompany too?
But, um, yeah, you've got tosometimes sit back and go yeah,
it's good, I'm proud of it.
And then people you know take anotice of us.
Speaker 3 (08:34):
That's interesting, the imposter syndrome, because I
think a lot of people want toadmit that Maybe they're
starting to do that.
But is there times when you goyou know you have to?
Speaker 2 (08:45):
take a step back, and Massively.
I mean.
Clarice has been, you know, wewere a local catering company
doing well, growing really wellfrom 2015 till COVID.
So, yeah, doing quite well.
Um, before COVID, we managed toknow about just under 3 million
.
It was successful.
It was good Um, and we werecompeting against local
(09:08):
businesses, local caterers, andyou know, doing well against
them.
Um, the pivot has been, you know, we got through COVID, which is
another story on its own,obviously.
Um, you know, by doing somepivoting online, I'm very lucky
that I create all my own websiteso I could just change at the
drop of a hat Um, create a shop,create a.
You know, do little things likethat.
(09:28):
Um, we had a call once from um,the owners of um, well, the Wix
headquarters in Tel Aviv.
I thought it was a bit of a oneof them fake calls and they're
like we love the shop you've setup over COVID, can we come and
do a film on you?
So, yeah, so like they sent,because there was no films going
on in COVID, they sent a 15 mancrew, like film crew from like
(09:50):
London and you know it's a videowe can't really use.
It's all about Wix payments andhow fantastic it is, but it was
like an amazingly shot film andit was like two day shooting.
Um, so little things like that.
You know lovely little nuggets.
But um yeah, coming out ofCOVID, I decided to.
It gave me a real opportunity.
As business owners we are, weall have the ideas, we all have
(10:14):
the uh, the things we want to do.
But when you're in the business, it's hard to pause and stop
and get that done.
Absolutely so.
Covid, of course, terrible forbusiness and you know, but what
it gave me the opportunity to dois go right, okay, we're going
to do that, but actually I cantake myself away for two weeks
and create this new arm to thebusiness that I wanted to do.
(10:35):
So we were always called cleverchefs, but we, um, I wanted to
put clever chefs into thecontract catering world, where
it served me well as a in mycareer.
It's put me through.
I've been to culinary Olympics,I've been to, you know, done a
lot of things.
Contract catering world is anundervalued commodity, really,
and a thing because, you know,everyone just thinks of
(10:56):
restaurants and hotels and um,so I wanted to start it and it
was the perfect opportunity,really perfect timing, because I
knew that the big, uh, you know, equity owned caterers turning
over 100 billion, you know, 100million um in this world were
going and upsetting a lot ofclients because, you know,
renegotiating deals with COVIDbecause they, you know.
(11:18):
So it needed that.
I think it needs that littleindependent personal approach
and um, yeah, I built a littleteam around me and we went to
market and I took on um, a guyin the middle of COVID where
everyone else was being maderedundant and I just took a punt
at it and, um, we, yeah, wewent to market with it and you
know, in the last uh, two and ahalf years, we've increased the
(11:42):
revenue well sales revenue by10.5 million.
Speaker 3 (11:45):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (11:46):
Um, we've won 90 contracts and we've and you say
in a pinch, remember, that'sright, sorry, waffle it on, but
um, we are now up against and,like you know, going into sales
arenas and and, and looked at asa, as an established caterer by
these really big caterers.
Um, so, yeah, that's the momentI've sort of actually has
(12:07):
pinched me, moments Like I can'tbelieve I'm actually, uh, you
know, alongside them.
Obviously, we're not as big asthem, but we do as good a job.
Speaker 3 (12:15):
Can I ask there, cause you come out this tunnel
and we don't like using the wordbut you've mentioned a few
times Can we go back into the Cword of COVID and check out?
You know, especially for yourProfession.
Speaker 2 (12:30):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (12:31):
How did you feel?
What did you do?
What happened?
You know what?
What was it?
The Friday?
Was it, or was it March, the20th 20th of March and then we
closed down March 16th.
Speaker 2 (12:39):
For me, yeah, yeah, it was like I think you try and
bury these feelings, because itwas.
Speaker 3 (12:47):
It was a PTSD.
Now we're bringing this back.
It's a good job.
You're sitting on a sofa, doyou?
Speaker 2 (12:51):
know what, like, I think if I had any advice for
new business owners, you know,this is you've got to pivot.
I know that's a bit of a clicheword, but it's how you react to
situations in business is whatmakes you great.
And I'm not, I'm the last toback myself and I'm not here sat
with a big EU at all.
But yeah, we were, on anabsolute, you know, going gun
(13:12):
hoe, great weddings, award afteraward after award.
And then this coming, you know,a few few of my staff were like
, oh Nick, this, you know this,this might, like you know, they
say in this could do somethingto weddings.
Like who'd have ever thought,no, I don't be silly, I'd be
fine and blow over.
And then, like you know, acouple of venues on a phone, a
couple of venue owners phoned meand started chatting a bit and
(13:34):
I started to sit up a little bit.
I was like, okay, you know, youjust can't comprehend it, can't
you?
You know you couldn't.
Speaker 1 (13:41):
That was the thing, wasn't it?
You literally it just.
I'm not going to say that, calthe pace, didn't it?
I mean?
Speaker 2 (13:46):
yeah, and then yeah, so we got that called.
Say that you know we are nowallowed not allowed to do
weddings March the 16th and itwas just like unbelievable.
So, yeah, I mean you know wehad 520 weddings on our books,
we had a conference centersaround the country doing stuff.
We had so many things justcancel.
(14:09):
I think the saving grace for uswas like our brides were at a
good level where, you know, theyknew the venue owners worked
with us really well and wepostponed weddings and give them
new dates.
We only had about sixcancellations which could have
(14:29):
gone badly.
You know, if they'd have allcanceled, I mean I wouldn't be
sat here.
Yeah, running a business now,that's for sure.
So I mean it's all then bridesand grooms that believed in us
and looked at the bigger pictureand some canceled two, three
times, some four pushed it downthe line.
So when I say luck, that's whatI mean about luck in business.
(14:53):
If the luck's on the side venueowners being really, really
considerate for their own sakeas well, but working together
and bride and grooms actuallygoing wow, as a business, that's
an impact for them.
So, yeah, that was two weeksand for the first two weeks,
(15:13):
yeah, I was at home, crazy likedoing what everyone's doing
sculling around, looking forfood, you know, like something
out of a cave days.
But yeah, I'm not one to sit athome.
So, like one week at home, Iwas climbing the walls so
realized I could just do thisonline delivery.
So I was one of the first, forsure, to start these online, not
(15:36):
before delivering all that, butas a caterer, getting afternoon
tea boxes and yeah.
So what was the?
What were you?
Speaker 1 (15:42):
starting with afternoon tea and.
Speaker 2 (15:44):
Yeah, we come up with so many creative things.
So afternoon tea boxes start,and we had.
So I thought, right, well, I'lljust do this.
Everyone was furloughed and Iprinted off.
I set it up on the website andit looked fantastic and my phone
was pinging every time we goton order and I printed off the
70 orders we had and I went inand like you don't think
(16:05):
actually how much 70 bits ofpaper looks like when you're
printing the orders.
So I tried to look at them, putthem all out on the floor, and
I phoned my colleague, rox and Isaid I think you better come in
and help me because this we gota logistically.
You know we got seven or eightvans so I thought we could
deliver these, but logisticallyit sounds like a nightmare.
So I was a bit like, oh, whathave we done?
(16:26):
And then VE Day was the nextweek, I think I think it was and
I got 800 orders.
Speaker 1 (16:34):
Wow, because everyone's at home and I just go
.
Speaker 2 (16:37):
No, that looks good on Facebook Bang.
I bought it by that.
Speaker 1 (16:39):
And that's what was happening because, like, we did
a lot of that.
Like you know, I think weordered like one of those I
think might be beefy boysburgers, or something like that.
The whole thing came with thepotato.
That's it and like literallyeverything was bizarre and they
were some of those things withbonkers prices as well.
Speaker 2 (16:54):
Yeah, I mean, yeah, we did, we were delivering it.
Luckily we had a contract withAdnall and actually we were in
one of their main call centersin town, so they would just
phone us out and go hi, can youdeliver 300 afternoon teas for
us?
You're like, yeah, all right.
So, logistically different, Ifound myself as a delivery
driver in the middle of COVID,like you know, driving a van
(17:16):
dropping off doors.
Speaker 1 (17:17):
It's nice to be on a boat, though, really, when
everyone else was there it wasfun.
Speaker 2 (17:20):
Yeah, it was tough days when, like I mean it was
one of my first weeks when I waslike I googled how many
packages Amazon deliver a dayfor a driver and it was like 90
or something.
So I was like I'm a bit quickerthan that and I was like so I
took on 110 and we just yeah, wemissed a few deliveries towards
the end of the day, but youknow, that was our first
learning curve really.
But yeah, we had every box youcould imagine Bloke boxes for
(17:43):
Dad's day, mother's day.
We even done about 400Christmas dinners at Christmas
in December.
Wow, so it was fun.
Speaker 3 (17:51):
It's a different way of working.
I'm originally from the littlevillage in the west of Ireland
and it's about 3000 people, andone of my friends has set up a
bike shop many years ago and hegot into before it even became a
big thing online retail forbikes and when we were allowed
to travel again, when you saidthat, he thought when COVID
kicked in he'd be dead and allof a sudden he went up to the
(18:13):
shop and there was just bing,bing, bing, bing, bing, bing,
bing.
Speaker 1 (18:16):
Yeah, Loads of the bike.
People like you couldn't get abike Exactly.
Speaker 3 (18:19):
Loads of ordering stuff from America.
Wow, and he showed me hiswarehouse and it was X amount of
feet high and he had sevendifferent storage units for the
bikes.
He said they weren't evencoming in that quickly.
There was a DPD, were arrivingat four Trucks every day.
They were taking the stickeroff and they were basically
(18:41):
putting another sticker back on.
Yeah and that's how quick it was.
And you said, and our biggestSupplier, and everything was
coming from America and then hewas sending it back to America,
yeah, and making profit on that.
But he said the bike trade,just, he said he was doing
20-hour days in the bike shopfor about four months and he
said never again.
(19:01):
He said he nearly killed me,said good money, said money
became irrelevant.
I made so much money that itwas, it wasn't important.
I've suffered physically,mentally, emotionally, yeah, and
a bit like you said that theorders just spiraled out of
control and he had to fulfillthem, otherwise he'd get a
potentially a bad reputation.
He said I don't want ever to gothrough that again.
(19:22):
It was great.
I'm sorted for a while now.
Yeah, they said it wasn'tenjoyable, so I'm presuming
delivering 110 a day.
It kind of was a bit of fun.
Speaker 2 (19:30):
But yeah, I mean we used to hire.
We were used to hire incatering.
So you do an event for you knowa fair amount for that day
Considered, you know we would doyou know hundreds of stuff out
delivering you know 20.
Our days were just a regularoccurrence.
For half the things We'd havethe money we didn't for.
You know we managed to turnover a million in COVID and
(19:51):
throughout that year and it gotus by a pay the bills.
We didn't make anything out ofit and it you know.
But you know if we hadn't, wewould have a different story,
wouldn't it?
Speaker 1 (20:01):
Yeah, yeah, we were you trained out of then.
Speaker 2 (20:03):
So just we got, we've been around the corner from
here actually in Cardiff downthere in Cardiff Bay for seven.
I school your kitchen in thereand everything.
Yes, we got a few now dottedaround the country, got a nice
development kitchen in Bristoland then and some stuff around
the country.
Speaker 3 (20:18):
But yeah, cardiff's on main hub for epic, yeah, yeah
is there different Requirementsfrom different people based in
the different Geographical areasthat they're in?
Do you find it's not easier orharder to deal with people, but
it's?
You deal with different peoplein different ways based on where
they are based.
Speaker 2 (20:39):
Oh, I'm trying to put them the nicest the way.
Yeah, and absolutely I mean yeah, you know it is very
interesting even now when we'rein schools.
You know we've got, like I said, we've got, you know, close on
86 schools and we do a primarymenu, a secondary, a further
education and the differences inthe area is crazy, like you
(21:00):
know.
You'll get a what the schoolsay we don't want roast dinner
because the kids don't reallylike it, and then you'll do a
menu without it and then you geta school say you can't it roast
it.
North kids will cry.
You get that with.
You know, when we see weddingsand brides and grooms and all
walks of life is the eatinghabits that are very
regionalised.
You know, I think Cardiff theylove the Familiar comfort food.
(21:21):
You know they're pushingthrough.
We got, I think we've got areally great for Cardiff food
scene coming through at theminute.
It's really nice and Bristol'salways had a bit more of an edge
Going forward.
I think you know.
I think people in Bristol knowwhat they like, know what they
want and what they want and knowhow to eat and obviously a big
(21:44):
Part of our epic of you know,customers custom base.
They usually, before COVID,were London professionals that
were from this area or Bristolor whatever, coming back being
eating, you know, top-end foodfor whilst they're working there
and they come back to mum anddad and get married and they
actually want to bring theirvibe and their, their cool
things they found, or whatever,bow buns or whatever it was you
(22:05):
know.
Speaker 1 (22:08):
Yeah, yeah, the kind of seems interested food at the
moment.
I'll get your take on this.
I think there's too many chainsin Cardiff now.
Yeah, do you think?
There's a reason for that.
You go to other areas maybethey're bigger and stuff but I
generally find Cardiff is justchain after chain after chain.
I'd like to see more local typeof stuff going on.
Speaker 2 (22:31):
Absolutely.
I think it's always been thesame.
I think an independent isalways a better Bet.
I actually I actually gotadmiration for chains and that's
that's probably chefs are goingto turn their grave.
Listen to this.
Well, you know the processes.
What you need to make a greathospitality business is to have
(22:54):
really great training processes,purchasing deals and structure.
The sad thing you know where.
You know.
I would like to see somesupporter independence from the
Welsh government or whatever,for more you know, more guidance
and help, because you know, ascreators, as chefs, we start
these businesses and then weforget about all the stuff
(23:16):
behind the scenes or they'remaking all the.
You know.
You know you need a member ofstaff.
You just hire them.
You're like, yeah, come on,then let's go.
You know a chain like Wagamama,yeah, wagamama.
Speaker 1 (23:26):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (23:28):
You're six weeks training before you're allowed
to touch food.
Yeah, if you're an independent,you need that chef to start
because you haven't got a chefsat there night, exactly that's.
You're not sending anyoneanywhere for six weeks.
So that's the the little bit.
But you know, we can all safelysay you go to a chain, you know
what you're going to get mostof the time depends what chain.
But yeah, we all haveindependence, of course, because
(23:48):
we want to see.
You know food is about love,passion, creativity.
We want to see that.
We want to see someone's flairon a plate.
I couldn't imagine ever being achef in a restaurant being told
what to cook.
That I would have never done it, you know.
It just wouldn't have been me.
You know I put on the platewhat I want to put and that's
what I want to eat.
Speaker 1 (24:06):
I want someone's interpretation and I think
that's probably coming from mypoint of view is that I want
that flair in food and that'swhy I?
quite like going to you know therestaurant like James summer in
place of that, because thisheart and soul of flair has gone
into that type of food where Ithink I get a little bit
disenchanted by the, by thechain, because it's the same old
(24:28):
, same old, jim.
Yeah, generally you do.
The service is differentbecause it's regimented and this
is how they kind of do it.
Don't get wrong, there's somechains their service is terrible
and I think that's just the waythey train them.
But yeah, I think that's that'sa big thing.
For me is the kind of the flairof the chef themselves.
Because I came from I saw thatin Whitbread.
Oh, nice, okay, when I was inuniversity, when I before I
(24:52):
started university, I worked inpubs and restaurants.
I worked with bread and thenbecame one of the youngest area
managers to ever be in Whitbreadwhen I graduated.
But I worked in the kitchen.
I one of the big things I didwherever I kind of went was I
used to go to some of the oneswho needed to turn in around me.
I used to go to some of theones who needed to turn in
(25:13):
around, so I went up and tornturn when you know, sort of Down
Swansea way, all over the kindof country, trying to help turn
some of the not so great onesaround.
But I always used to.
As soon as I went in there, I'dwork with the chambermaids, I'd
work in the kitchen just to seewhat was going wrong with that.
You were told exactly what wenton the plate and you had a spec
sheet which said the steak goesat like sort of 11 o'clock on
(25:35):
the plate, chips go over there,peas go over there.
And it was exactly.
Everything was to that kind ofspec.
Speaker 2 (25:41):
Well, there's different, every bit there's no,
flater cooking.
Speaker 1 (25:43):
You're just as always , you say a microwave technician
.
Speaker 2 (25:46):
Exactly, and I mean there's different.
You know hospitality Igenuinely like, love it.
I can't think of anyone lovingit more than I love it.
Right.
But you know you've got to seedifferent areas of it.
You know if someone's stayingaway for business, then they
just want to eat.
You know they're just eating,they're not bothered, they don't
need to.
You know their taste budstingle that evening.
It's just a, you know.
(26:07):
So there's a time and a placefor everything and I think
there's room for everything.
But of course, you know, forfoodies like ourselves, you know
we want to go and eat in themnice places, like James
Summermans and people who have.
We know that before we gotthere they've been stressing,
rushing, you know.
And technically, you know, ifyou want to eat out Now with all
the, you know the stuff you canget in marxies and waitrose and
(26:27):
we could do nice things at home, right.
So, like you know cooking, eveneasy, easy food, you want stuff
that you can't do at home.
So like that's what you want togo out.
You want to a thing that howdid they just do that?
Or you know the flavor onthat's amazing.
Speaker 3 (26:41):
So that's what you want to see can I go back to the
wagamama thing and just bearwith me.
You said you know there is aprocess to follow, and all that
as a business owner and you'vementioned the word I'm going to
say half a dozen times as atleast creative.
So you need time and space Togo away and come up with ideas
(27:04):
as as the your main role.
However, as a business owner,you have to wear many hats, and
we've noticed it here about ourcarpet laying a few weeks ago.
We can go into that later.
But how do you do that as abusiness owner?
And I know you know when yousaid earlier you've got 600 and
you'll have a management teamand all that.
(27:25):
But even when you start withRunning a business on your own
and it's you, and then you climbup and you have three people
and five people and all that,how, as a business owner, do you
cope with Having all those hats?
Because, fine, you mightdelegate the hats to other
people over time, but as yougrow and grow, you still have,
(27:46):
you still have hats and youstill probably have many, many
hats.
How was?
How do you deal with all ofthat?
Because that's, the employedperson probably doesn't see all
the hats you.
You wear as a business.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (27:57):
You.
There's no way around it.
And it's a great questionbecause you've got to live it.
You, if you, if you're gonna doso, whatever I've done for all
my life, if I'm gonna do so, Icommit to it and you have got to
live and go.
Right, I am doing this andyou've got to have a drive.
So you know, I've got manythings that you know driver, got
, reputation.
I want to keep my reputation.
Well, um, but mainly like I'vegot a.
(28:20):
You know I've left great payingjobs to come and do this, so I
had to.
So at the start, it was aboutright after when as much money
as I owned then and I got twogirls you know to look after,
and so, um, you know, I thinkyou've got to live it.
You've got a lot of businessowners.
I see them.
I hear people and I'd like to,you know, eventually move into
helping businesses once I'vedone my thing.
(28:41):
But, like a Lot of people that,right, yeah, I'm gonna get this
and get this person to do thatwebsite and they get this person
to do that and and, and I'llhave more time because I work
for myself, I think you're gonnalast no time at all, mate,
because you have got.
So my idea is you're right,you've got to have down time.
So I probably until I literallysleep.
(29:02):
I'm constantly thinking aboutthe next idea because, yeah,
you're right, in the day I'vegot things happening all the
time and that's been for thelength of running this business.
So I'm all you know, you've gotout that down time.
Sometimes I get an hour in theday.
I grab some lunch, walk aroundsome.
John Lewis is like my haven,just chill, it's calming and you
(29:22):
can think of things.
Then you, you think of an idea,rush back to the office and get
it down on paper.
But yeah, I have some weekswhere I'm like I haven't thought
of anything new for a minuteand I'm just firefighting and
that can bring you down as abusiness owner, totally take you
to a different place.
So that's really difficult.
You've got a.
You know I'm not one for havinglong breaks, or you know you
(29:45):
know a bit away, but some daysyou do need to just sit there
and go right what we're doingand that.
I think that's the biggestchallenge we all face as
business owners, isn't it?
Speaker 1 (29:54):
Yeah, I think, I think we're very poor at
shutting off from the business.
Oh yeah, I mean, and I Don'tthink it's, and only it's always
healthy.
No, don't go wrong, it's goodto kind of keep doing, but it is
good to and we and we try to doit more and more now is Just
take a little bit of time of dayand if it just go from, wander
(30:14):
around the block here, yeah, orthat little bit time out like we
will now, that's a little bitlike we cut the pool tip of the
tarsif, yeah, like you, you'llbe suddenly go right, I've been
out this now for an hour and ahalf, so I'm a game of pool.
Get the pool tip of bang.
Speaker 3 (30:29):
Just.
Speaker 1 (30:33):
But it's not, though.
Is it like?
Literally like I think it was aFriday.
We were, we were flat-headeddoing something.
Both of us and you were likeright, I can't do anymore, let's
take a break from it, andInstead of going for that, walk
around the block, we kind of dothat.
I mean, and I think you kind ofdo that I'm.
I'm somebody you like.
I Don't take a huge amount ofbreaks.
You know, we do go away, andI'm trying to do more of it now.
Yeah, because I think it's goodand is healthy, and you know, I
(30:58):
went away for a week this year,but we had stuff going on the
business that I had to becontacted, didn't I?
when normally, I can shut downevery day I was have to do.
Something was on calls now,which is not normal, and I Like
kind of felt that I didn't givea hundred percent of my family
when I was away.
Then Jimmy, because of it whichwe've said needs to change,
like next year, I don't want tobe doing that.
(31:18):
I want to like I'll pick upsome messages, but you know
generally, you know clear here,takes care of all my emails
Generally, don't take the answerany my emails generally, and
I'll just pick one stuff.
But it is good to take a stepaway sometimes, like absolutely,
and I'm I'm guilty.
Speaker 2 (31:33):
I need to do it more.
I think you know there'sdifferent types of businesses.
If you're running, you know, alifestyle business, you know you
know depends where your goalsare, where your ambitions are.
I've got a big dream, bigambitions.
I've always been the same.
I want to grow this to over a50 million pound company within
the next four years and we're ontarget to do that.
I'm a superb nice yeah hugenumbers.
(31:57):
But if you know, if I'mcommitted to doing that, then I
got to do it and but you can'thave everything.
You've got to sacrificeSomething along the way and it's
just trying to keep thatbalance of not dying before
getting ill or not seeing yourfamily or whatever.
So, yeah, you know, if I you'vegot to just do what you've got
(32:17):
to do really and you've got toenjoy what you're doing and just
try your best really.
Speaker 3 (32:21):
And as much as we say about all the hats that we wear
, they're all the plates thatyou have to spin as well and
that's difficult and it takes aspecial person.
Not that we're better thananyone else as a business owner,
but you have to have probably adifferent mindset to be able to
continue to spin all thoseplates, because the moment one
of those plates stops spinningand falls has an impact on the
(32:45):
rest of them itself.
But for me maybe I'm a bitstrange I love the speed of
something and getting thingsdone last minute and having the.
Speaker 1 (32:55):
I'm not going to say the stress.
Speaker 3 (32:56):
Yeah, the rush, the adrenaline of getting things
done.
I like being busy all the time.
I don't like downtime.
Speaker 2 (33:01):
And.
Speaker 3 (33:01):
I know Garth will message me, you know, late at
night and something.
They come up with an idea andwe're lucky enough as business
owners and we said this tonumerous people that we can
bounce ideas off each other andstuff like that.
Whereas a singular businessowner may think this is a great
idea and run with it and it'llcost both time and money and
(33:22):
maybe have a negative impact.
And that's that's what we'veseen lately and over time is
that the business owners don'tthey need to speak to other
business owners.
There needs to be a, not not anetworking of oh, I need you to
do my website, but they're to tobitch about having a bad day
and and throw ideas out atpeople and kind of go, you don't
(33:44):
want to be doing that, yeah,and also the thing of like you,
you can say something tosomebody and they'd be like,
yeah, I had the same problem.
Speaker 1 (33:51):
Do you know what?
This is how I dealt with it,and you're like I didn't think
of that Exactly.
And I think and that's somethingwe want to develop, especially
in South Wales to start with isthat kind of safe haven, because
there's a lot of kind ofnetworking type groups that they
would bring business ownerstogether.
But they generally now run bybusiness owners who've actually
really run businesses and beenin, like you know, like I've run
(34:14):
online retail companies, like Iactually an online retail
company in COVID.
I've run a few different ones.
Some of them have failed, someare still running, which I have
equity in.
I've had property.
You know we, we've run.
You know we, you know you'vebeen 70, 80 years self employed.
Now Some of those are probablyyeah.
(34:36):
Me something similar to me, andit's tough out there and people
don't kind of realize and andwe're lucky, like I said,
because we can bounce ideas Ifwe're like, yes, they, we had a
win just day when we came in.
Do you know what I mean?
Yeah, Wasn't particularly aboutbusiness.
I think it was just generallifewinds, wasn't he yesterday?
We had to get over our system.
When you're starting out, asyou probably knew, I mean, you
(34:57):
didn't have that, did you?
And you can mone your friends,but if they don't run a business
, they don't understand.
Speaker 2 (35:01):
It's again.
We are in this conversationwith the team yesterday, as we
were talking about.
You should only mone upwardsVery true, and we're trying to
get them to not mone.
So we're all guilty of it.
We can, all you know, becausethat has been one of my biggest
challenges as a sole businessowner.
It's all very well getting yoursenior team and I've had some
super senior people from someamazing experience in my team,
(35:25):
you know, over the last fewyears.
But even them, you know yourbank's an idea.
You know they will disagree,they will challenge you, but it
doesn't feel, as you know,they're not making the decision
with the head of their business.
So yeah, I do miss.
You know.
I wish sometimes I'd started asa bit of a duo.
A lot of catering companies areduos.
(35:46):
In the big world it is.
There's only a very slim fewthere on their own.
So it's very, very niche whatwe do.
But that duo does create thatsort of you know there's usually
one that excels in differentdepartments.
Speaker 1 (35:58):
I can imagine one's a chef, one's a BDM.
Yeah, Generally probably sothat that isn't it.
One's been on the floor infront of you, know the clients
the others in the backgrounddoing all the development.
All the chefs are like.
I kind of get that.
Speaker 2 (36:10):
So yeah, super lonely place sometimes.
Speaker 3 (36:12):
Can I go back to you, said there the morning upwards,
only what or how do you keep,or do you?
You know we all have the shitdays and we are moments in time
how do you keep the happiness orthe happy face in front of the
staff and I know they're allremote and that's why I know
(36:32):
it's not 600.
But how do you, you know, keepthat positivity or happiness
going?
Or do you let it down?
Do people kind of see you it'sa bad day, leave me alone?
Or, as a business owner, how doyou manage that?
Speaker 2 (36:46):
Yeah, it's a tough one.
Our industry is very emotional,so like I'm a bit of a
perfectionist, so I don't likethings being wrong, especially
food service.
So that is I'm trying to grow,like every time growing.
You never stop learning in anywalk of life.
But as a business owner I'mtrying to, you know, do things,
go to meetings, go to you knowother things, to grow my sort of
(37:10):
way, because you know I alwaysgo back to I'm a chef, so I'm a
bit of a pain sometimes.
You know, back in the.
You know I'm far removed fromwhere I was in the kitchen.
You know, chucking somethingaround or being mad that there
was a smudge on a plate and notthat person anymore.
But I've still got a long wayto go and I've worked with even
colleagues I've had recently inthe last few years, their way
(37:31):
they handle situations.
I've learned a lot from takethe emotion out of it, think,
look at the situation, look atthe problem.
And I'm not always best at that.
I'm aware of my heart on mysleeve, I'm passionate, but I'm
getting there.
You know I'm getting better.
So just keeping you know I needto, I do keep.
Hopefully my team would say Ikeep a good face in front of
(37:51):
them.
They can tell when I'm happywith something, but they know
it's always just through thelove of food.
There's no ego, there's no,there's no ulterior motive.
I don't need to be the big.
You know, we're trying to do aflat line structure.
We try and say you know, anyonecan phone anyone.
I think that's the importantthing.
I think if you can get carriedaway in your head of like
(38:12):
unapproachable or, you know,sitting in your ivory tower and
then your team just lose respectfor you.
But massive, really greatquestions.
Because you know, when I wasrunning the business and I was
in on, the tools and my teamwere very different.
You know we always really addeach other's backs and you know
when I grow to the, you know,like I said, nearly 600 staff.
(38:33):
Now I have a mat, some teammembers.
That's scary.
So, like you know, sometimes Igo to the kitchen.
I don't know who a couplepeople are.
That's new world for me.
It's pretty scary.
And they look at me like, andthen you know someone might say
oh, that's.
Nick, and it's like, don't saythat, like we're all just, you
know.
And then they get a bit Likeenspeople.
Yeah, I mean, it gets a littlebit, but I hate that.
(38:54):
That's the biggest thing.
Everyone who joins Clevrshass Iwant them to feel like they can
just ring you or be at ease,because I love history and you
know, I think back to like itmust have come from the
workhouses, the big, tall hatsand the cane of the bosses who
created this culture of don'ttalk to the owner, like he'll
(39:14):
hit you or whatever, because Idon't understand.
You know, I really needeveryone to be able to be fluent
.
I think every business owner ifwe're all honest, in every
business, whatever size, youwant your team to be able to say
oh, you're an idiot, that wasstupid and it not be.
You know, of course it could berespectful, but it not be a
problem Because we don't haveall the answers.
(39:36):
We're not perfect.
You know.
We own the business, but wedon't all make right decisions
every day.
I love it.
My marketing team sends me aposter and I just like, oh my
God, I wouldn't even change anyof that, that's the main.
I mean like it's the happiest,it makes me the happiest ever.
Or, you know, we win a job andI wasn't involved in it.
It's the best feeling.
Speaker 1 (39:58):
Yeah, it is it's, but yeah, there's some really
interesting points about it.
I think the big one I'd like tosee you're always learning and
I always kind of see if you'renot learning, you're dying.
Yeah, I think as soon as youstop Learning in a business,
you're arrogant enough to thinkyou know it everything.
(40:19):
Yeah, that is the end of yourbusiness, probably.
Speaker 2 (40:22):
I think so.
Yeah, you know, there's a lotof people out there.
Speaker 1 (40:24):
I think we think they know it all, but we're
constantly learning.
I mean, all the time we'retrying to evolve.
You know, we're trying to be abit different in in our industry
, because it's a veryold-fashioned industry average
age is still, I think, 56, 57 inour industry okay.
We've got a few years yet tothen, but not many, not your few
(40:44):
over 10 years.
But I think.
I think you've got to evolve inbusiness, haven't?
You absolutely got to change.
You've got to keep movingbecause otherwise Nothing's
gonna kind of change.
Speaker 2 (40:58):
It's just life in general.
You know, talking about thefood sitting card, if it's like
it, you know we're talking.
I was talking to some of myfriends the other day.
We think that every restaurantgot a shelf life, you know, I
think, five years.
I think you've got to change.
You got a you know, redevelopNew offer.
The world moves fast now,doesn't it, yeah, so you know
you've got to be with it.
Speaker 1 (41:16):
No, it doesn't.
And you do see some kind ofSome of the chains who don't
redevelop.
Actually, I see a good exampleof that and I'll see it on you.
It's TJ Friday's drumming.
Like I always loved each other,I kind of grew up with that
kind of brand, but the One ofthe ones in Cardiff just gets it
wrong every time, like yougoing back there.
Speaker 3 (41:37):
Yeah they're gonna get it right yeah they get wrong
every time?
Speaker 1 (41:40):
Yeah, but nothing changes in the deck or doesn't
change the way everyone I kindof customers who is what?
Speaker 2 (41:46):
doesn't change in there.
That's the bits of business Ilove Delving into why businesses
work, what they do and how,because you look at TJ Friday's
and like actually their menuspretty good.
Yes, if they.
I always think you know,because this time I'm good.
I hope there's no cave andpeople listening because they're
gonna shoot me down, but I loveto harvest a brand right.
Speaker 1 (42:09):
I always think, I always think so card.
Speaker 2 (42:11):
Well, I always think right, I think the process, the
idea, the menu, the salabar, Ithink loads of people love it,
but the food's rubbish most ofthe time.
It is right.
I Always think about thesechains.
If they, if we stuck likereally great, passionate chefs
in there, you would have arecipe for luck success.
Excuse the pun, but I imagineharvest have run by the best
(42:33):
chef in Cardiff.
I mean you'd be killing itbecause it's amazing, the, the
actual, the ideas from probablyhead office development.
When I read the menu, I'm like,yeah, I could be good.
I know it's not gonna be that,I know it's not gonna be the
tenderest chicken or I know theMixed grill isn't gonna be the
best steak from a farming escort, but imagine it was exactly
(42:53):
love to have done that, like I'dlove to have done.
You know, walked up to thesalabar and I've got Otterlinge
style salads and I've got freshsalabar and I've got and you
know it would be amazing.
So, yeah, that sort of excitesme.
So, tgis, I think it's a shamebecause it has got potential.
Oh, 100%.
But it's just all about Scale,scalability, processes.
(43:13):
You know, wrong products on thetip, they're always sticky, the
tables are always sticky, andso I Associated with it, yeah
and we always have the sameproblem with break wheels.
Speaker 1 (43:21):
at the same time they were part I don't whether you
saw part of it, but they werebefore and it all came down to
using the cleaning fluid onthose tables and we were told by
the guys who's come in from thecleaning Come and say that this
, this would literally take thelacquer off the table.
So they're gonna get sticky.
No one ever did anything aboutit.
No like well, we still keepusing that cleanest solution.
(43:42):
Yeah, why yeah?
Speaker 2 (43:43):
I.
Speaker 1 (43:44):
Brought it up once to me.
I was like why are we doingthat?
Why are we not changing that?
Speaker 2 (43:47):
I Think the massive part of it in hospitality is the
people we have in hospitality,you know, no, you know there's
some absolute superstars.
But in other countries you know, america, france is seen as a
career and you know, in Britainit seemed as a job if you
haven't got another job, andthat's the sad thing really, and
(44:09):
it's got better over the years,I think, you know.
But there are still people whojust, you know, just do that
work because they're not doinganything else.
And I Can't think of a moreskill.
Well, of course there is, butit's a skilled, you know,
intuitive, really service ledjob which you need to be Really
tactile to be in, and sometimeswe just put people in the wrong
(44:31):
places, absolutely.
You know, we talk about it allthe time in clever chef, we
Strategically position our teamis no, I did it.
One of my favorite films is thefounder.
I love that film.
It's just brilliant, perfect,Absolutely perfect, how they
draw out the kitchen in thetennis courts.
But it's they hit the nail onthe head.
If you've got the wrong personon the wrong place, the wrong
(44:53):
host, the wrong person on thetail, the wrong person making
cocktails, you've got a recipefor disaster.
But if you mix it around, itcould work.
Speaker 1 (45:01):
So yeah.
I think, you apply that tovirtually all business,
absolutely, yeah.
Yeah, you know if, if you'vegot the person who should be
customer facing not customerfacing the person customers
facing should actually be theone doing the admin.
Yeah, because that's wheretheir strength is, that's where
it's a recipe for disaster,isn't it?
Speaker 2 (45:20):
People get bored.
So if you're doing a role, youknow if you've got a role is
boring, like need to, you know,check that out and like mix them
up, do something different.
Speaker 1 (45:29):
Yeah, because I was something that One of the bread
I brought in was.
When a new starter starts Atany sort of management level,
they have to work in every areaof the business.
Yeah, they have to work withthe chambermaids, they have to
be changing rooms, they have towork on reception, they have to
work in the kitchen, they haveto do a night porter one as well
, yeah, yeah, because you needto understand every facet of the
(45:50):
job and actually understandwhat the people who are doing
those jobs for you Feel, likeI'm what it's like for them to
do it.
Speaker 2 (45:55):
Of course there's everyone thinks they're rules
the hardest and they everyonethinks they're also most
important.
But, um, yeah, if youdefinitely, if you understand it
, um, definitely, it's a reallygood idea.
Speaker 3 (46:04):
Yeah, we usually finish up by saying you know
what's next.
But so when you get to 50million, you're exiting, you're
buying into Harvester and you'regonna change all the chains.
Speaker 2 (46:12):
I yeah, well, I probably know if, if you know,
in the future I got out of thisbusiness, I'm probably do
something different to be fair,probably.
Speaker 1 (46:21):
Yeah, do you think?
Speaker 2 (46:22):
you can come back to build consultancy stuff and yeah
, probably I want to have alittle bit of a dabble in
property.
Maybe or just don't knowsomething I like I could, you
know, use your creativity inother ways and interior design
someone like that.
I don't know, might neverhappen.
I do love the food industry andservice too much, but uh, we'll
see.
It's a tough gig.
Speaker 1 (46:43):
Yeah, it is Great.
Thanks, Nick no way.
Speaker 3 (46:47):
Thanks very much.
It was really very good.
Speaker 1 (46:49):
See you next time.
On today's exciting episode, we have the founder and
CEO of Cleversheps and EpicCaters, nick Collins.
His business over the lasteight years has grown from
strength to strength, with over600 staff and a multi-million
pound turnover business.
He talks about his journey andsome of the ups and downs of
running a business that we allknow about.
(00:20):
This was a great chat with Nick, so sit back and enjoy the
episode and don't forget tofollow and leave us a review, as
this helps us grow and reachmore people.
We asked you the morning howare we Good morning.
(00:42):
How are you Good, nick?
You well, very good.
Thank you, short hop for youfrom the office.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
I expected here, just round the corner, just in the
centre of town.
Speaker 3 (00:55):
It's nice having people in the office.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
We looked at the centre of town, didn't we?
The parking was a big thing forus.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
We're going to be moving next year.
It's a bit of a short termthing.
So instead of moving to town,how?
Speaker 3 (01:04):
long is that listening, is it?
Speaker 1 (01:06):
Instead of moving to town, we move 50 yards.
That's easy then, basically asa crow flies.
Speaker 3 (01:11):
We'll talk about that later.
It was not easy.
Speaker 1 (01:13):
We'll talk about that later.
So I guess just the list iskind of no Bit of an intro into
you.
Give us a rundown who you are,what you do.
We're all started.
Speaker 2 (01:28):
I'm the founder and CEO of Clevesheps Group, which
has two brands in thehospitality world.
We've got Clevesheps, which isa contract caterer, has
contracts with workplaces,education and leisure facilities
all across pretty much the UK.
It's got about 90 sites.
(01:48):
And then we've got EpicCaterers, which is our wedding
and event brand.
We do about six to sevenhundred events and weddings a
year, private dinners and reallyhigh-end sort of luxury event
catering.
Speaker 3 (02:05):
Six hundred.
Speaker 2 (02:07):
Yeah, we've got a really great team, is that?
Speaker 3 (02:09):
condensed into a certain period in the calendar
year, is there more in June toJuly, august and there is in
February.
Speaker 2 (02:18):
Absolutely.
It does peak in the summermonths, as you'd expect, but
over the years a lot in midweek,a lot in the winter, now making
a thing of winter weddings.
Speaker 1 (02:30):
You've seen a lot more midweek.
I went to a Monday weddingrecently.
I've done some Wednesday ones,Thursdays, but I actually did a
Monday one.
It was great actually.
It was kind of like.
Speaker 2 (02:40):
If you booked a time off work, why not?
Once you're in a wedding, itcan be any day.
Speaker 3 (02:44):
I always like to stay the night as well, yeah take a
couple of days off Does it makeit easier as a business person
then to have that segmented out.
So rather than having all ofthe work done every Friday,
saturday, sunday in August, ifyou're getting a Tuesday wedding
in February, at least you knowstaff wise and all that there is
continuity and it's easier tomanage that way than all bulked
(03:07):
into a certain shorter timeperiod.
Speaker 2 (03:10):
There's pros and cons to it.
It's nice to spread it out overthe year, definitely, but then
you don't get some of the staffthat you might get easier to get
staff on a weekend, usually incollege or uni or working in the
week and then you think thatspreading out maybe 10, 12
weddings over a week might be abetter idea, but actually you
(03:31):
need the team in the kitchenprepping it.
So there's pros and cons toeach way, really.
But it's good that we've got aconsistent sort of business
across the year.
The key to our success in thathas been consistency with our
team on the ground.
Epic Katers is called EpicKaters because our team are just
epic.
What they do is unbelievablehow they produce the high-end
(03:54):
food they do consistently.
Speaker 3 (03:57):
Do you get what they call the Bridesillers?
Is there strange requests everynow and again?
Speaker 2 (04:02):
Absolutely.
I mean, I miss I do the part ofmy job.
We've been going about eightyears now.
I do miss actually handling theBrides and Grooms myself.
It's funny we were actuallytalking about it yesterday.
We had a bit of a senior teammeeting in the Epic HQ and we
used to say we could write downwhat Brides and Grooms are going
to say before they come in thebuilding for our first
consultation, because they allsay the same thing.
(04:25):
But yeah, you do get the oddview that you want something.
But that's what we do, that'swhat we were about making dreams
happen really and making itdifferent.
Speaker 1 (04:35):
Yeah, it's because you tailor it to what someone
wants.
Speaker 2 (04:38):
Yeah it's got to be.
When I started doing theWeddings of Events, that was the
starting block for us and thatwas the rub.
Really.
It's your biggest day After ahouse, is probably the most
you're going to spend on any dayor anything, and it's emotional
.
They've both even the Grooms.
(04:59):
They've dreamed of this day fora long time and that's very
rare.
There's not many days you dreamof having.
Not everyone's like that, someis just a bit of a day, but some
people you can see in theireyes this is the day, their
hopes and dreams, what theywanted it to be.
So to live up to that isincredibly difficult, but we do
(05:21):
it time and time again.
But to deliver someone when thewedding's over and you look at
them and they've had a few todrink or they're having a laugh
and they're with all their dearones, there's nothing.
Speaker 1 (05:32):
There's no better feeling Amazing and the food
plays a huge part in a wedding,doesn't it?
Definitely?
Now, absolutely, it's thebuffet I look forward to with
the evening.
Usually, what I find is theactual main meals, a little bit
small on size for my liking, butthe buffies where I make my
money back, yeah, no, that'sfair point and that's kind of
(05:52):
like where you find me in thefront of the queue you're
normally.
If I'm not the front of queue,there's usually something wrong.
Speaker 2 (05:57):
Yeah Well, it's got to be an eating experience.
It's a long day, isn't it?
You know you need to have somehighlights.
Speaker 1 (06:03):
Yeah, exactly, it's a kind of big thing.
So eight years ago you startedthe business yeah, we're.
I guess we did all start priorto that and you know, I guess,
the love of food and cooking andI assume you've been in the
catering industry for a longtime.
Speaker 2 (06:18):
Yeah, so being a chef , well, since I was 16.
So yeah, like 24 years now orsomething.
So yeah, I'd been a chef for along time in some great places,
which in France, on some yachts,london Michelin Star Kitchens
and the contract catering worlditself and weddings and events.
And yeah, just just I've beenon Mars Chef the professionals
(06:42):
and real foodie, real, you know,really passionate about
creative foods, making it lookgood, making it taste good.
So, yeah, never really had amassive desire to sort of go out
on my own.
If I'm honest, I think everychef's got that burning desire
to sort of open a restaurant andI haven't had that all my
career.
I wanted to sort of I'd ratherhave been at the top of a big
(07:02):
company and sort of take thelead there as a chef and use my
food there.
But yeah, and a situationhappened, you know, an
opportunity arose and I justgrabbed it, really started, you
know, literally with a month'spay for my previous job, no
loans, no, nothing, wow, andyeah, just a few luck along the
(07:23):
way, right place, right time andhard work.
Speaker 3 (07:26):
No, as a business, as a business owner, there's no
such thing as luck.
It's it's predominantly hardwork.
I don't think luck.
Speaker 2 (07:33):
How do you work the luck you get?
Yeah, for like I think, yeah, Ithink I think a lot of people
work hard, yeah, and like theydon't make the break.
I think, yeah, you've got towork hard, there's got to be,
there's got to be.
I was talking about the otherday.
It's like a cauldron.
You've got to have quite a lotof things in there, yes, but I'm
quite conscious.
Yeah, you know, I'm good atwhat I do and I'm passionate and
(07:57):
I'm hardworking.
So they're definitely what youneed to succeed in any business.
But I know definitely there'ssnippets along the way where
I've either met the right personor had the right break.
That you know, if I hadn't beenin that position that time or
end up being that place, I mightnot be where I am now.
So I always hold that.
I always try and stay humblewith it, because you know, I'm
(08:18):
really, really proud of what wegot.
Yeah, sometimes you get a bitof imposter syndrome.
You like, hang on a minute,what might do?
What is what?
Have I grown in, grown thiscompany too?
But, um, yeah, you've got tosometimes sit back and go yeah,
it's good, I'm proud of it.
And then people you know take anotice of us.
Speaker 3 (08:34):
That's interesting, the imposter syndrome, because I
think a lot of people want toadmit that Maybe they're
starting to do that.
But is there times when you goyou know you have to?
Speaker 2 (08:45):
take a step back, and Massively.
I mean.
Clarice has been, you know, wewere a local catering company
doing well, growing really wellfrom 2015 till COVID.
So, yeah, doing quite well.
Um, before COVID, we managed toknow about just under 3 million
.
It was successful.
It was good Um, and we werecompeting against local
(09:08):
businesses, local caterers, andyou know, doing well against
them.
Um, the pivot has been, you know, we got through COVID, which is
another story on its own,obviously.
Um, you know, by doing somepivoting online, I'm very lucky
that I create all my own websiteso I could just change at the
drop of a hat Um, create a shop,create a.
You know, do little things likethat.
(09:28):
Um, we had a call once from um,the owners of um, well, the Wix
headquarters in Tel Aviv.
I thought it was a bit of a oneof them fake calls and they're
like we love the shop you've setup over COVID, can we come and
do a film on you?
So, yeah, so like they sent,because there was no films going
on in COVID, they sent a 15 mancrew, like film crew from like
(09:50):
London and you know it's a videowe can't really use.
It's all about Wix payments andhow fantastic it is, but it was
like an amazingly shot film andit was like two day shooting.
Um, so little things like that.
You know lovely little nuggets.
But um yeah, coming out ofCOVID, I decided to.
It gave me a real opportunity.
As business owners we are, weall have the ideas, we all have
(10:14):
the uh, the things we want to do.
But when you're in the business, it's hard to pause and stop
and get that done.
Absolutely so.
Covid, of course, terrible forbusiness and you know, but what
it gave me the opportunity to dois go right, okay, we're going
to do that, but actually I cantake myself away for two weeks
and create this new arm to thebusiness that I wanted to do.
(10:35):
So we were always called cleverchefs, but we, um, I wanted to
put clever chefs into thecontract catering world, where
it served me well as a in mycareer.
It's put me through.
I've been to culinary Olympics,I've been to, you know, done a
lot of things.
Contract catering world is anundervalued commodity, really,
and a thing because, you know,everyone just thinks of
(10:56):
restaurants and hotels and um,so I wanted to start it and it
was the perfect opportunity,really perfect timing, because I
knew that the big, uh, you know, equity owned caterers turning
over 100 billion, you know, 100million um in this world were
going and upsetting a lot ofclients because, you know,
renegotiating deals with COVIDbecause they, you know.
(11:18):
So it needed that.
I think it needs that littleindependent personal approach
and um, yeah, I built a littleteam around me and we went to
market and I took on um, a guyin the middle of COVID where
everyone else was being maderedundant and I just took a punt
at it and, um, we, yeah, wewent to market with it and you
know, in the last uh, two and ahalf years, we've increased the
(11:42):
revenue well sales revenue by10.5 million.
Speaker 3 (11:45):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (11:46):
Um, we've won 90 contracts and we've and you say
in a pinch, remember, that'sright, sorry, waffle it on, but
um, we are now up against and,like you know, going into sales
arenas and and, and looked at asa, as an established caterer by
these really big caterers.
Um, so, yeah, that's the momentI've sort of actually has
(12:07):
pinched me, moments Like I can'tbelieve I'm actually, uh, you
know, alongside them.
Obviously, we're not as big asthem, but we do as good a job.
Speaker 3 (12:15):
Can I ask there, cause you come out this tunnel
and we don't like using the wordbut you've mentioned a few
times Can we go back into the Cword of COVID and check out?
You know, especially for yourProfession.
Speaker 2 (12:30):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (12:31):
How did you feel?
What did you do?
What happened?
You know what?
What was it?
The Friday?
Was it, or was it March, the20th 20th of March and then we
closed down March 16th.
Speaker 2 (12:39):
For me, yeah, yeah, it was like I think you try and
bury these feelings, because itwas.
Speaker 3 (12:47):
It was a PTSD.
Now we're bringing this back.
It's a good job.
You're sitting on a sofa, doyou?
Speaker 2 (12:51):
know what, like, I think if I had any advice for
new business owners, you know,this is you've got to pivot.
I know that's a bit of a clicheword, but it's how you react to
situations in business is whatmakes you great.
And I'm not, I'm the last toback myself and I'm not here sat
with a big EU at all.
But yeah, we were, on anabsolute, you know, going gun
(13:12):
hoe, great weddings, award afteraward after award.
And then this coming, you know,a few few of my staff were like
, oh Nick, this, you know this,this might, like you know, they
say in this could do somethingto weddings.
Like who'd have ever thought,no, I don't be silly, I'd be
fine and blow over.
And then, like you know, acouple of venues on a phone, a
couple of venue owners phoned meand started chatting a bit and
(13:34):
I started to sit up a little bit.
I was like, okay, you know, youjust can't comprehend it, can't
you?
You know you couldn't.
Speaker 1 (13:41):
That was the thing, wasn't it?
You literally it just.
I'm not going to say that, calthe pace, didn't it?
I mean?
Speaker 2 (13:46):
yeah, and then yeah, so we got that called.
Say that you know we are nowallowed not allowed to do
weddings March the 16th and itwas just like unbelievable.
So, yeah, I mean you know wehad 520 weddings on our books,
we had a conference centersaround the country doing stuff.
We had so many things justcancel.
(14:09):
I think the saving grace for uswas like our brides were at a
good level where, you know, theyknew the venue owners worked
with us really well and wepostponed weddings and give them
new dates.
We only had about sixcancellations which could have
(14:29):
gone badly.
You know, if they'd have allcanceled, I mean I wouldn't be
sat here.
Yeah, running a business now,that's for sure.
So I mean it's all then bridesand grooms that believed in us
and looked at the bigger pictureand some canceled two, three
times, some four pushed it downthe line.
So when I say luck, that's whatI mean about luck in business.
(14:53):
If the luck's on the side venueowners being really, really
considerate for their own sakeas well, but working together
and bride and grooms actuallygoing wow, as a business, that's
an impact for them.
So, yeah, that was two weeksand for the first two weeks,
(15:13):
yeah, I was at home, crazy likedoing what everyone's doing
sculling around, looking forfood, you know, like something
out of a cave days.
But yeah, I'm not one to sit athome.
So, like one week at home, Iwas climbing the walls so
realized I could just do thisonline delivery.
So I was one of the first, forsure, to start these online, not
(15:36):
before delivering all that, butas a caterer, getting afternoon
tea boxes and yeah.
So what was the?
What were you?
Speaker 1 (15:42):
starting with afternoon tea and.
Speaker 2 (15:44):
Yeah, we come up with so many creative things.
So afternoon tea boxes start,and we had.
So I thought, right, well, I'lljust do this.
Everyone was furloughed and Iprinted off.
I set it up on the website andit looked fantastic and my phone
was pinging every time we goton order and I printed off the
70 orders we had and I went inand like you don't think
(16:05):
actually how much 70 bits ofpaper looks like when you're
printing the orders.
So I tried to look at them, putthem all out on the floor, and
I phoned my colleague, rox and Isaid I think you better come in
and help me because this we gota logistically.
You know we got seven or eightvans so I thought we could
deliver these, but logisticallyit sounds like a nightmare.
So I was a bit like, oh, whathave we done?
(16:26):
And then VE Day was the nextweek, I think I think it was and
I got 800 orders.
Speaker 1 (16:34):
Wow, because everyone's at home and I just go
.
Speaker 2 (16:37):
No, that looks good on Facebook Bang.
I bought it by that.
Speaker 1 (16:39):
And that's what was happening because, like, we did
a lot of that.
Like you know, I think weordered like one of those I
think might be beefy boysburgers, or something like that.
The whole thing came with thepotato.
That's it and like literallyeverything was bizarre and they
were some of those things withbonkers prices as well.
Speaker 2 (16:54):
Yeah, I mean, yeah, we did, we were delivering it.
Luckily we had a contract withAdnall and actually we were in
one of their main call centersin town, so they would just
phone us out and go hi, can youdeliver 300 afternoon teas for
us?
You're like, yeah, all right.
So, logistically different, Ifound myself as a delivery
driver in the middle of COVID,like you know, driving a van
(17:16):
dropping off doors.
Speaker 1 (17:17):
It's nice to be on a boat, though, really, when
everyone else was there it wasfun.
Speaker 2 (17:20):
Yeah, it was tough days when, like I mean it was
one of my first weeks when I waslike I googled how many
packages Amazon deliver a dayfor a driver and it was like 90
or something.
So I was like I'm a bit quickerthan that and I was like so I
took on 110 and we just yeah, wemissed a few deliveries towards
the end of the day, but youknow, that was our first
learning curve really.
But yeah, we had every box youcould imagine Bloke boxes for
(17:43):
Dad's day, mother's day.
We even done about 400Christmas dinners at Christmas
in December.
Wow, so it was fun.
Speaker 3 (17:51):
It's a different way of working.
I'm originally from the littlevillage in the west of Ireland
and it's about 3000 people, andone of my friends has set up a
bike shop many years ago and hegot into before it even became a
big thing online retail forbikes and when we were allowed
to travel again, when you saidthat, he thought when COVID
kicked in he'd be dead and allof a sudden he went up to the
(18:13):
shop and there was just bing,bing, bing, bing, bing, bing,
bing.
Speaker 1 (18:16):
Yeah, Loads of the bike.
People like you couldn't get abike Exactly.
Speaker 3 (18:19):
Loads of ordering stuff from America.
Wow, and he showed me hiswarehouse and it was X amount of
feet high and he had sevendifferent storage units for the
bikes.
He said they weren't evencoming in that quickly.
There was a DPD, were arrivingat four Trucks every day.
They were taking the stickeroff and they were basically
(18:41):
putting another sticker back on.
Yeah and that's how quick it was.
And you said, and our biggestSupplier, and everything was
coming from America and then hewas sending it back to America,
yeah, and making profit on that.
But he said the bike trade,just, he said he was doing
20-hour days in the bike shopfor about four months and he
said never again.
(19:01):
He said he nearly killed me,said good money, said money
became irrelevant.
I made so much money that itwas, it wasn't important.
I've suffered physically,mentally, emotionally, yeah, and
a bit like you said that theorders just spiraled out of
control and he had to fulfillthem, otherwise he'd get a
potentially a bad reputation.
He said I don't want ever to gothrough that again.
(19:22):
It was great.
I'm sorted for a while now.
Yeah, they said it wasn'tenjoyable, so I'm presuming
delivering 110 a day.
It kind of was a bit of fun.
Speaker 2 (19:30):
But yeah, I mean we used to hire.
We were used to hire incatering.
So you do an event for you knowa fair amount for that day
Considered, you know we would doyou know hundreds of stuff out
delivering you know 20.
Our days were just a regularoccurrence.
For half the things We'd havethe money we didn't for.
You know we managed to turnover a million in COVID and
(19:51):
throughout that year and it gotus by a pay the bills.
We didn't make anything out ofit and it you know.
But you know if we hadn't, wewould have a different story,
wouldn't it?
Speaker 1 (20:01):
Yeah, yeah, we were you trained out of then.
Speaker 2 (20:03):
So just we got, we've been around the corner from
here actually in Cardiff downthere in Cardiff Bay for seven.
I school your kitchen in thereand everything.
Yes, we got a few now dottedaround the country, got a nice
development kitchen in Bristoland then and some stuff around
the country.
Speaker 3 (20:18):
But yeah, cardiff's on main hub for epic, yeah, yeah
is there different Requirementsfrom different people based in
the different Geographical areasthat they're in?
Do you find it's not easier orharder to deal with people, but
it's?
You deal with different peoplein different ways based on where
they are based.
Speaker 2 (20:39):
Oh, I'm trying to put them the nicest the way.
Yeah, and absolutely I mean yeah, you know it is very
interesting even now when we'rein schools.
You know we've got, like I said, we've got, you know, close on
86 schools and we do a primarymenu, a secondary, a further
education and the differences inthe area is crazy, like you
(21:00):
know.
You'll get a what the schoolsay we don't want roast dinner
because the kids don't reallylike it, and then you'll do a
menu without it and then you geta school say you can't it roast
it.
North kids will cry.
You get that with.
You know, when we see weddingsand brides and grooms and all
walks of life is the eatinghabits that are very
regionalised.
You know, I think Cardiff theylove the Familiar comfort food.
(21:21):
You know they're pushingthrough.
We got, I think we've got areally great for Cardiff food
scene coming through at theminute.
It's really nice and Bristol'salways had a bit more of an edge
Going forward.
I think you know.
I think people in Bristol knowwhat they like, know what they
want and what they want and knowhow to eat and obviously a big
(21:44):
Part of our epic of you know,customers custom base.
They usually, before COVID,were London professionals that
were from this area or Bristolor whatever, coming back being
eating, you know, top-end foodfor whilst they're working there
and they come back to mum anddad and get married and they
actually want to bring theirvibe and their, their cool
things they found, or whatever,bow buns or whatever it was you
(22:05):
know.
Speaker 1 (22:08):
Yeah, yeah, the kind of seems interested food at the
moment.
I'll get your take on this.
I think there's too many chainsin Cardiff now.
Yeah, do you think?
There's a reason for that.
You go to other areas maybethey're bigger and stuff but I
generally find Cardiff is justchain after chain after chain.
I'd like to see more local typeof stuff going on.
Speaker 2 (22:31):
Absolutely.
I think it's always been thesame.
I think an independent isalways a better Bet.
I actually I actually gotadmiration for chains and that's
that's probably chefs are goingto turn their grave.
Listen to this.
Well, you know the processes.
What you need to make a greathospitality business is to have
(22:54):
really great training processes,purchasing deals and structure.
The sad thing you know where.
You know.
I would like to see somesupporter independence from the
Welsh government or whatever,for more you know, more guidance
and help, because you know, ascreators, as chefs, we start
these businesses and then weforget about all the stuff
(23:16):
behind the scenes or they'remaking all the.
You know.
You know you need a member ofstaff.
You just hire them.
You're like, yeah, come on,then let's go.
You know a chain like Wagamama,yeah, wagamama.
Speaker 1 (23:26):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (23:28):
You're six weeks training before you're allowed
to touch food.
Yeah, if you're an independent,you need that chef to start
because you haven't got a chefsat there night, exactly that's.
You're not sending anyoneanywhere for six weeks.
So that's the the little bit.
But you know, we can all safelysay you go to a chain, you know
what you're going to get mostof the time depends what chain.
But yeah, we all haveindependence, of course, because
(23:48):
we want to see.
You know food is about love,passion, creativity.
We want to see that.
We want to see someone's flairon a plate.
I couldn't imagine ever being achef in a restaurant being told
what to cook.
That I would have never done it, you know.
It just wouldn't have been me.
You know I put on the platewhat I want to put and that's
what I want to eat.
Speaker 1 (24:06):
I want someone's interpretation and I think
that's probably coming from mypoint of view is that I want
that flair in food and that'swhy I?
quite like going to you know therestaurant like James summer in
place of that, because thisheart and soul of flair has gone
into that type of food where Ithink I get a little bit
disenchanted by the, by thechain, because it's the same old
(24:28):
, same old, jim.
Yeah, generally you do.
The service is differentbecause it's regimented and this
is how they kind of do it.
Don't get wrong, there's somechains their service is terrible
and I think that's just the waythey train them.
But yeah, I think that's that'sa big thing.
For me is the kind of the flairof the chef themselves.
Because I came from I saw thatin Whitbread.
Oh, nice, okay, when I was inuniversity, when I before I
(24:52):
started university, I worked inpubs and restaurants.
I worked with bread and thenbecame one of the youngest area
managers to ever be in Whitbreadwhen I graduated.
But I worked in the kitchen.
I one of the big things I didwherever I kind of went was I
used to go to some of the oneswho needed to turn in around me.
I used to go to some of theones who needed to turn in
(25:13):
around, so I went up and tornturn when you know, sort of Down
Swansea way, all over the kindof country, trying to help turn
some of the not so great onesaround.
But I always used to.
As soon as I went in there, I'dwork with the chambermaids, I'd
work in the kitchen just to seewhat was going wrong with that.
You were told exactly what wenton the plate and you had a spec
sheet which said the steak goesat like sort of 11 o'clock on
(25:35):
the plate, chips go over there,peas go over there.
And it was exactly.
Everything was to that kind ofspec.
Speaker 2 (25:41):
Well, there's different, every bit there's no,
flater cooking.
Speaker 1 (25:43):
You're just as always , you say a microwave technician
.
Speaker 2 (25:46):
Exactly, and I mean there's different.
You know hospitality Igenuinely like, love it.
I can't think of anyone lovingit more than I love it.
Right.
But you know you've got to seedifferent areas of it.
You know if someone's stayingaway for business, then they
just want to eat.
You know they're just eating,they're not bothered, they don't
need to.
You know their taste budstingle that evening.
It's just a, you know.
(26:07):
So there's a time and a placefor everything and I think
there's room for everything.
But of course, you know, forfoodies like ourselves, you know
we want to go and eat in themnice places, like James
Summermans and people who have.
We know that before we gotthere they've been stressing,
rushing, you know.
And technically, you know, ifyou want to eat out Now with all
the, you know the stuff you canget in marxies and waitrose and
(26:27):
we could do nice things at home, right.
So, like you know cooking, eveneasy, easy food, you want stuff
that you can't do at home.
So like that's what you want togo out.
You want to a thing that howdid they just do that?
Or you know the flavor onthat's amazing.
Speaker 3 (26:41):
So that's what you want to see can I go back to the
wagamama thing and just bearwith me.
You said you know there is aprocess to follow, and all that
as a business owner and you'vementioned the word I'm going to
say half a dozen times as atleast creative.
So you need time and space Togo away and come up with ideas
(27:04):
as as the your main role.
However, as a business owner,you have to wear many hats, and
we've noticed it here about ourcarpet laying a few weeks ago.
We can go into that later.
But how do you do that as abusiness owner?
And I know you know when yousaid earlier you've got 600 and
you'll have a management teamand all that.
(27:25):
But even when you start withRunning a business on your own
and it's you, and then you climbup and you have three people
and five people and all that,how, as a business owner, do you
cope with Having all those hats?
Because, fine, you mightdelegate the hats to other
people over time, but as yougrow and grow, you still have,
(27:46):
you still have hats and youstill probably have many, many
hats.
How was?
How do you deal with all ofthat?
Because that's, the employedperson probably doesn't see all
the hats you.
You wear as a business.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (27:57):
You.
There's no way around it.
And it's a great questionbecause you've got to live it.
You, if you, if you're gonna doso, whatever I've done for all
my life, if I'm gonna do so, Icommit to it and you have got to
live and go.
Right, I am doing this andyou've got to have a drive.
So you know, I've got manythings that you know driver, got
, reputation.
I want to keep my reputation.
Well, um, but mainly like I'vegot a.
(28:20):
You know I've left great payingjobs to come and do this, so I
had to.
So at the start, it was aboutright after when as much money
as I owned then and I got twogirls you know to look after,
and so, um, you know, I thinkyou've got to live it.
You've got a lot of businessowners.
I see them.
I hear people and I'd like to,you know, eventually move into
helping businesses once I'vedone my thing.
(28:41):
But, like a Lot of people that,right, yeah, I'm gonna get this
and get this person to do thatwebsite and they get this person
to do that and and, and I'llhave more time because I work
for myself, I think you're gonnalast no time at all, mate,
because you have got.
So my idea is you're right,you've got to have down time.
So I probably until I literallysleep.
(29:02):
I'm constantly thinking aboutthe next idea because, yeah,
you're right, in the day I'vegot things happening all the
time and that's been for thelength of running this business.
So I'm all you know, you've gotout that down time.
Sometimes I get an hour in theday.
I grab some lunch, walk aroundsome.
John Lewis is like my haven,just chill, it's calming and you
(29:22):
can think of things.
Then you, you think of an idea,rush back to the office and get
it down on paper.
But yeah, I have some weekswhere I'm like I haven't thought
of anything new for a minuteand I'm just firefighting and
that can bring you down as abusiness owner, totally take you
to a different place.
So that's really difficult.
You've got a.
You know I'm not one for havinglong breaks, or you know you
(29:45):
know a bit away, but some daysyou do need to just sit there
and go right what we're doingand that.
I think that's the biggestchallenge we all face as
business owners, isn't it?
Speaker 1 (29:54):
Yeah, I think, I think we're very poor at
shutting off from the business.
Oh yeah, I mean, and I Don'tthink it's, and only it's always
healthy.
No, don't go wrong, it's goodto kind of keep doing, but it is
good to and we and we try to doit more and more now is Just
take a little bit of time of dayand if it just go from, wander
(30:14):
around the block here, yeah, orthat little bit time out like we
will now, that's a little bitlike we cut the pool tip of the
tarsif, yeah, like you, you'llbe suddenly go right, I've been
out this now for an hour and ahalf, so I'm a game of pool.
Get the pool tip of bang.
Speaker 3 (30:29):
Just.
Speaker 1 (30:33):
But it's not, though.
Is it like?
Literally like I think it was aFriday.
We were, we were flat-headeddoing something.
Both of us and you were likeright, I can't do anymore, let's
take a break from it, andInstead of going for that, walk
around the block, we kind of dothat.
I mean, and I think you kind ofdo that I'm.
I'm somebody you like.
I Don't take a huge amount ofbreaks.
You know, we do go away, andI'm trying to do more of it now.
Yeah, because I think it's goodand is healthy, and you know, I
(30:58):
went away for a week this year,but we had stuff going on the
business that I had to becontacted, didn't I?
when normally, I can shut downevery day I was have to do.
Something was on calls now,which is not normal, and I Like
kind of felt that I didn't givea hundred percent of my family
when I was away.
Then Jimmy, because of it whichwe've said needs to change,
like next year, I don't want tobe doing that.
(31:18):
I want to like I'll pick upsome messages, but you know
generally, you know clear here,takes care of all my emails
Generally, don't take the answerany my emails generally, and
I'll just pick one stuff.
But it is good to take a stepaway sometimes, like absolutely,
and I'm I'm guilty.
Speaker 2 (31:33):
I need to do it more.
I think you know there'sdifferent types of businesses.
If you're running, you know, alifestyle business, you know you
know depends where your goalsare, where your ambitions are.
I've got a big dream, bigambitions.
I've always been the same.
I want to grow this to over a50 million pound company within
the next four years and we're ontarget to do that.
I'm a superb nice yeah hugenumbers.
(31:57):
But if you know, if I'mcommitted to doing that, then I
got to do it and but you can'thave everything.
You've got to sacrificeSomething along the way and it's
just trying to keep thatbalance of not dying before
getting ill or not seeing yourfamily or whatever.
So, yeah, you know, if I you'vegot to just do what you've got
(32:17):
to do really and you've got toenjoy what you're doing and just
try your best really.
Speaker 3 (32:21):
And as much as we say about all the hats that we wear
, they're all the plates thatyou have to spin as well and
that's difficult and it takes aspecial person.
Not that we're better thananyone else as a business owner,
but you have to have probably adifferent mindset to be able to
continue to spin all thoseplates, because the moment one
of those plates stops spinningand falls has an impact on the
(32:45):
rest of them itself.
But for me maybe I'm a bitstrange I love the speed of
something and getting thingsdone last minute and having the.
Speaker 1 (32:55):
I'm not going to say the stress.
Speaker 3 (32:56):
Yeah, the rush, the adrenaline of getting things
done.
I like being busy all the time.
I don't like downtime.
Speaker 2 (33:01):
And.
Speaker 3 (33:01):
I know Garth will message me, you know, late at
night and something.
They come up with an idea andwe're lucky enough as business
owners and we said this tonumerous people that we can
bounce ideas off each other andstuff like that.
Whereas a singular businessowner may think this is a great
idea and run with it and it'llcost both time and money and
(33:22):
maybe have a negative impact.
And that's that's what we'veseen lately and over time is
that the business owners don'tthey need to speak to other
business owners.
There needs to be a, not not anetworking of oh, I need you to
do my website, but they're to tobitch about having a bad day
and and throw ideas out atpeople and kind of go, you don't
(33:44):
want to be doing that, yeah,and also the thing of like you,
you can say something tosomebody and they'd be like,
yeah, I had the same problem.
Speaker 1 (33:51):
Do you know what?
This is how I dealt with it,and you're like I didn't think
of that Exactly.
And I think and that's somethingwe want to develop, especially
in South Wales to start with isthat kind of safe haven, because
there's a lot of kind ofnetworking type groups that they
would bring business ownerstogether.
But they generally now run bybusiness owners who've actually
really run businesses and beenin, like you know, like I've run
(34:14):
online retail companies, like Iactually an online retail
company in COVID.
I've run a few different ones.
Some of them have failed, someare still running, which I have
equity in.
I've had property.
You know we, we've run.
You know we, you know you'vebeen 70, 80 years self employed.
Now Some of those are probablyyeah.
(34:36):
Me something similar to me, andit's tough out there and people
don't kind of realize and andwe're lucky, like I said,
because we can bounce ideas Ifwe're like, yes, they, we had a
win just day when we came in.
Do you know what I mean?
Yeah, Wasn't particularly aboutbusiness.
I think it was just generallifewinds, wasn't he yesterday?
We had to get over our system.
When you're starting out, asyou probably knew, I mean, you
(34:57):
didn't have that, did you?
And you can mone your friends,but if they don't run a business
, they don't understand.
Speaker 2 (35:01):
It's again.
We are in this conversationwith the team yesterday, as we
were talking about.
You should only mone upwardsVery true, and we're trying to
get them to not mone.
So we're all guilty of it.
We can, all you know, becausethat has been one of my biggest
challenges as a sole businessowner.
It's all very well getting yoursenior team and I've had some
super senior people from someamazing experience in my team,
(35:25):
you know, over the last fewyears.
But even them, you know yourbank's an idea.
You know they will disagree,they will challenge you, but it
doesn't feel, as you know,they're not making the decision
with the head of their business.
So yeah, I do miss.
You know.
I wish sometimes I'd started asa bit of a duo.
A lot of catering companies areduos.
(35:46):
In the big world it is.
There's only a very slim fewthere on their own.
So it's very, very niche whatwe do.
But that duo does create thatsort of you know there's usually
one that excels in differentdepartments.
Speaker 1 (35:58):
I can imagine one's a chef, one's a BDM.
Yeah, Generally probably sothat that isn't it.
One's been on the floor infront of you, know the clients
the others in the backgrounddoing all the development.
All the chefs are like.
I kind of get that.
Speaker 2 (36:10):
So yeah, super lonely place sometimes.
Speaker 3 (36:12):
Can I go back to you, said there the morning upwards,
only what or how do you keep,or do you?
You know we all have the shitdays and we are moments in time
how do you keep the happiness orthe happy face in front of the
staff and I know they're allremote and that's why I know
(36:32):
it's not 600.
But how do you, you know, keepthat positivity or happiness
going?
Or do you let it down?
Do people kind of see you it'sa bad day, leave me alone?
Or, as a business owner, how doyou manage that?
Speaker 2 (36:46):
Yeah, it's a tough one.
Our industry is very emotional,so like I'm a bit of a
perfectionist, so I don't likethings being wrong, especially
food service.
So that is I'm trying to grow,like every time growing.
You never stop learning in anywalk of life.
But as a business owner I'mtrying to, you know, do things,
go to meetings, go to you knowother things, to grow my sort of
(37:10):
way, because you know I alwaysgo back to I'm a chef, so I'm a
bit of a pain sometimes.
You know, back in the.
You know I'm far removed fromwhere I was in the kitchen.
You know, chucking somethingaround or being mad that there
was a smudge on a plate and notthat person anymore.
But I've still got a long wayto go and I've worked with even
colleagues I've had recently inthe last few years, their way
(37:31):
they handle situations.
I've learned a lot from takethe emotion out of it, think,
look at the situation, look atthe problem.
And I'm not always best at that.
I'm aware of my heart on mysleeve, I'm passionate, but I'm
getting there.
You know I'm getting better.
So just keeping you know I needto, I do keep.
Hopefully my team would say Ikeep a good face in front of
(37:51):
them.
They can tell when I'm happywith something, but they know
it's always just through thelove of food.
There's no ego, there's no,there's no ulterior motive.
I don't need to be the big.
You know, we're trying to do aflat line structure.
We try and say you know, anyonecan phone anyone.
I think that's the importantthing.
I think if you can get carriedaway in your head of like
(38:12):
unapproachable or, you know,sitting in your ivory tower and
then your team just lose respectfor you.
But massive, really greatquestions.
Because you know, when I wasrunning the business and I was
in on, the tools and my teamwere very different.
You know we always really addeach other's backs and you know
when I grow to the, you know,like I said, nearly 600 staff.
(38:33):
Now I have a mat, some teammembers.
That's scary.
So, like you know, sometimes Igo to the kitchen.
I don't know who a couplepeople are.
That's new world for me.
It's pretty scary.
And they look at me like, andthen you know someone might say
oh, that's.
Nick, and it's like, don't saythat, like we're all just, you
know.
And then they get a bit Likeenspeople.
Yeah, I mean, it gets a littlebit, but I hate that.
(38:54):
That's the biggest thing.
Everyone who joins Clevrshass Iwant them to feel like they can
just ring you or be at ease,because I love history and you
know, I think back to like itmust have come from the
workhouses, the big, tall hatsand the cane of the bosses who
created this culture of don'ttalk to the owner, like he'll
(39:14):
hit you or whatever, because Idon't understand.
You know, I really needeveryone to be able to be fluent
.
I think every business owner ifwe're all honest, in every
business, whatever size, youwant your team to be able to say
oh, you're an idiot, that wasstupid and it not be.
You know, of course it could berespectful, but it not be a
problem Because we don't haveall the answers.
(39:36):
We're not perfect.
You know.
We own the business, but wedon't all make right decisions
every day.
I love it.
My marketing team sends me aposter and I just like, oh my
God, I wouldn't even change anyof that, that's the main.
I mean like it's the happiest,it makes me the happiest ever.
Or, you know, we win a job andI wasn't involved in it.
It's the best feeling.
Speaker 1 (39:58):
Yeah, it is it's, but yeah, there's some really
interesting points about it.
I think the big one I'd like tosee you're always learning and
I always kind of see if you'renot learning, you're dying.
Yeah, I think as soon as youstop Learning in a business,
you're arrogant enough to thinkyou know it everything.
(40:19):
Yeah, that is the end of yourbusiness, probably.
Speaker 2 (40:22):
I think so.
Yeah, you know, there's a lotof people out there.
Speaker 1 (40:24):
I think we think they know it all, but we're
constantly learning.
I mean, all the time we'retrying to evolve.
You know, we're trying to be abit different in in our industry
, because it's a veryold-fashioned industry average
age is still, I think, 56, 57 inour industry okay.
We've got a few years yet tothen, but not many, not your few
(40:44):
over 10 years.
But I think.
I think you've got to evolve inbusiness, haven't?
You absolutely got to change.
You've got to keep movingbecause otherwise Nothing's
gonna kind of change.
Speaker 2 (40:58):
It's just life in general.
You know, talking about thefood sitting card, if it's like
it, you know we're talking.
I was talking to some of myfriends the other day.
We think that every restaurantgot a shelf life, you know, I
think, five years.
I think you've got to change.
You got a you know, redevelopNew offer.
The world moves fast now,doesn't it, yeah, so you know
you've got to be with it.
Speaker 1 (41:16):
No, it doesn't.
And you do see some kind ofSome of the chains who don't
redevelop.
Actually, I see a good exampleof that and I'll see it on you.
It's TJ Friday's drumming.
Like I always loved each other,I kind of grew up with that
kind of brand, but the One ofthe ones in Cardiff just gets it
wrong every time, like yougoing back there.
Speaker 3 (41:37):
Yeah they're gonna get it right yeah they get wrong
every time?
Speaker 1 (41:40):
Yeah, but nothing changes in the deck or doesn't
change the way everyone I kindof customers who is what?
Speaker 2 (41:46):
doesn't change in there.
That's the bits of business Ilove Delving into why businesses
work, what they do and how,because you look at TJ Friday's
and like actually their menuspretty good.
Yes, if they.
I always think you know,because this time I'm good.
I hope there's no cave andpeople listening because they're
gonna shoot me down, but I loveto harvest a brand right.
Speaker 1 (42:09):
I always think, I always think so card.
Speaker 2 (42:11):
Well, I always think right, I think the process, the
idea, the menu, the salabar, Ithink loads of people love it,
but the food's rubbish most ofthe time.
It is right.
I Always think about thesechains.
If they, if we stuck likereally great, passionate chefs
in there, you would have arecipe for luck success.
Excuse the pun, but I imagineharvest have run by the best
(42:33):
chef in Cardiff.
I mean you'd be killing itbecause it's amazing, the, the
actual, the ideas from probablyhead office development.
When I read the menu, I'm like,yeah, I could be good.
I know it's not gonna be that,I know it's not gonna be the
tenderest chicken or I know theMixed grill isn't gonna be the
best steak from a farming escort, but imagine it was exactly
(42:53):
love to have done that, like I'dlove to have done.
You know, walked up to thesalabar and I've got Otterlinge
style salads and I've got freshsalabar and I've got and you
know it would be amazing.
So, yeah, that sort of excitesme.
So, tgis, I think it's a shamebecause it has got potential.
Oh, 100%.
But it's just all about Scale,scalability, processes.
(43:13):
You know, wrong products on thetip, they're always sticky, the
tables are always sticky, andso I Associated with it, yeah
and we always have the sameproblem with break wheels.
Speaker 1 (43:21):
at the same time they were part I don't whether you
saw part of it, but they werebefore and it all came down to
using the cleaning fluid onthose tables and we were told by
the guys who's come in from thecleaning Come and say that this
, this would literally take thelacquer off the table.
So they're gonna get sticky.
No one ever did anything aboutit.
No like well, we still keepusing that cleanest solution.
(43:42):
Yeah, why yeah?
Speaker 2 (43:43):
I.
Speaker 1 (43:44):
Brought it up once to me.
I was like why are we doingthat?
Why are we not changing that?
Speaker 2 (43:47):
I Think the massive part of it in hospitality is the
people we have in hospitality,you know, no, you know there's
some absolute superstars.
But in other countries you know, america, france is seen as a
career and you know, in Britainit seemed as a job if you
haven't got another job, andthat's the sad thing really, and
(44:09):
it's got better over the years,I think, you know.
But there are still people whojust, you know, just do that
work because they're not doinganything else.
And I Can't think of a moreskill.
Well, of course there is, butit's a skilled, you know,
intuitive, really service ledjob which you need to be Really
tactile to be in, and sometimeswe just put people in the wrong
(44:31):
places, absolutely.
You know, we talk about it allthe time in clever chef, we
Strategically position our teamis no, I did it.
One of my favorite films is thefounder.
I love that film.
It's just brilliant, perfect,Absolutely perfect, how they
draw out the kitchen in thetennis courts.
But it's they hit the nail onthe head.
If you've got the wrong personon the wrong place, the wrong
(44:53):
host, the wrong person on thetail, the wrong person making
cocktails, you've got a recipefor disaster.
But if you mix it around, itcould work.
Speaker 1 (45:01):
So yeah.
I think, you apply that tovirtually all business,
absolutely, yeah.
Yeah, you know if, if you'vegot the person who should be
customer facing not customerfacing the person customers
facing should actually be theone doing the admin.
Yeah, because that's wheretheir strength is, that's where
it's a recipe for disaster,isn't it?
Speaker 2 (45:20):
People get bored.
So if you're doing a role, youknow if you've got a role is
boring, like need to, you know,check that out and like mix them
up, do something different.
Speaker 1 (45:29):
Yeah, because I was something that One of the bread
I brought in was.
When a new starter starts Atany sort of management level,
they have to work in every areaof the business.
Yeah, they have to work withthe chambermaids, they have to
be changing rooms, they have towork on reception, they have to
work in the kitchen, they haveto do a night porter one as well
, yeah, yeah, because you needto understand every facet of the
(45:50):
job and actually understandwhat the people who are doing
those jobs for you Feel, likeI'm what it's like for them to
do it.
Speaker 2 (45:55):
Of course there's everyone thinks they're rules
the hardest and they everyonethinks they're also most
important.
But, um, yeah, if youdefinitely, if you understand it
, um, definitely, it's a reallygood idea.
Speaker 3 (46:04):
Yeah, we usually finish up by saying you know
what's next.
But so when you get to 50million, you're exiting, you're
buying into Harvester and you'regonna change all the chains.
Speaker 2 (46:12):
I yeah, well, I probably know if, if you know,
in the future I got out of thisbusiness, I'm probably do
something different to be fair,probably.
Speaker 1 (46:21):
Yeah, do you think?
Speaker 2 (46:22):
you can come back to build consultancy stuff and yeah
, probably I want to have alittle bit of a dabble in
property.
Maybe or just don't knowsomething I like I could, you
know, use your creativity inother ways and interior design
someone like that.
I don't know, might neverhappen.
I do love the food industry andservice too much, but uh, we'll
see.
It's a tough gig.
Speaker 1 (46:43):
Yeah, it is Great.
Thanks, Nick no way.
Speaker 3 (46:47):
Thanks very much.
It was really very good.
Speaker 1 (46:49):
See you next time.
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