Sexual brokenness often begins with wounds we don't want to face. Dr. Carol Tanksley, OBGYN physician turned ordained minister, draws from 30 years of medical practice and her own journey to explore how our personal stories shape our sexual decisions. Dr. Carol directs our attention to what Jesus emphasized most - the condition of the heart. While behaviors certainly have consequences, lasting transformation begins with addressing the wounds, lies, and empty places in our souls that drive our choices. Your story matters, and God wants to meet you exactly where you are.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
There was a time I found myself alone in a hotel
room with a married man.
I knew why he was there, thatwas very quickly obvious.
But why was I there?
That experience rocked my world.
It kind of jerked me up.
I at that point found myself onthe verge of doing something I
(00:23):
had said I would never do and upuntil then had not done.
Why had I allowed myself to getinto that situation?
I had to look at the wounds Ihad, the lies I had believed and
the empty places in my soulthat led me to that vulnerable
place.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
Hi, friend, you're listening to Find Hope.
Here.
I'm your host, teresa Whiting.
Author, speaker, ministryleader, friend and fellow
struggler.
This is a podcast about themessy, complicated, painful
parts of life, but also thebeautiful, joy-filled hope that
(01:04):
Jesus promises.
Each week we dig deep intoGod's Word together and talk
about how His truth impacts oureveryday lives.
I'm not going to ask you to sitwith me and have coffee,
because I seem to have my bestconversations while I'm just
doing life, so I'd love to hangout with you as you walk or fold
laundry or drive to work.
(01:25):
You're invited to join me inpursuing the hope God promises,
no matter where you are or whereyou've been.
I pray you always find hopehere.
Let's jump in to today's episode.
Well, welcome friends.
I am excited to introduce youto my guests.
(01:47):
Today I have Dr CarolTanks-Leon, and Dr Carol is an
author, speaker, podcaster,licensed OBGYN physician and
ordained minister.
She's an expert on integratedwholeness for body, mind and
soul, and she founded Dr CarolMinistries to help people
experience wholeness, as Godintended.
(02:08):
I also want to let thelisteners know that I had the
opportunity to be on Dr Carol'spodcast, and so I'm going to put
a link to that in the shownotes so you can make sure you
go over and listen to that.
But while we begin, dr Carol,if you could just tell the
listeners a little bit moreabout yourself, who you are and
what you do.
Speaker 1 (02:29):
Well, thank you, Teresa, and it was such a
pleasure to have you on ourpodcast.
That conversation was sospecial to me and honored that
you want to share that with yourlisteners.
But as far as me yeah, I'm anOBGYN physician for about 30
years I would have never, everimagined that God would have me
(02:50):
doing what he has me doing now.
Maybe 10 years or so into mymedical practice I felt very
clearly from the Lord that hehad something a little unique
for me to do and so that throughsome wrestling, ended up going
to seminary and I got my Masterof Divinity and then Doctor of
(03:12):
Ministry and pursued that andfor a number of years was sort
of doing a dual track medicineand ministry and found that very
beautiful and fulfilling.
A couple of years ago theministry part of what I've been
doing had just continued to growand stopped actively seeing
(03:34):
patients in a medical setting,although I still have my license
.
But what I see God doing withme now is bringing the
theological and the scientific,medical and my own experience
with my own story and with theother people that I've been
privileged to work with, to someof the most tender and
(03:55):
important places that, first ofall, our culture is wrestling
with and then that we as humanswrestle with and that God wants
to bring the healing andtransformation that Jesus came
to bring us all.
And the area aroundrelationships, intimacy and
sexuality is such a big part ofthat and I know, Teresa, that is
(04:16):
, I would imagine, a surprisethat God has you speaking into
that.
But it's both a privilege and,in a sense, of weight to be
tasked and invited to helppeople as God is bringing them,
to deal with some of these mosttender, important places in our
(04:37):
souls.
Speaker 2 (04:38):
Yes, yes, absolutely.
I feel that same weight, as yousaid, because the
responsibility of when you feellike God is saying, okay, I want
you to speak into this, andyou're kind of resistant and
saying, god, is this really thearea you want me to speak into?
But you wrote a book recentlyentitled Sexpectations Reframing
(05:00):
your Good and Not so Goodstories about God, love and
relationships, and I'm going toshow it to anybody who's
watching the YouTube.
This is the cover, and I justfinished reading this book.
And, dr Carol, I just want totell you what I love about it.
First of all, I love that you'retalking about stories.
I think it is so important forus to get in touch with the
(05:23):
stories that we have lived andthe parts of our stories that we
don't want to face or maybetalk about or think about.
And you really help the readerto kind of be willing to go into
their story, especially as itpertains to their sexuality and
some of the things that theyhave experienced.
And then also, I love at theend of every chapter.
(05:46):
You have this beautiful what doyou call it?
It's like a narrative thatweaves all the way through the
book.
I couldn't wait to get to theend of every chapter so I could
read that next part of the story.
It was such a beautifuladdition to the book, but I'm
curious what led you to writethis book in the first place.
Speaker 1 (06:09):
Primarily because people were asking me for help
in this area of their lifearound sexuality and I realized
my story played into this and Iwas seeing in people's lives
that information was notadequately helping the troubles
(06:31):
that they had.
I'm sure many of your listeners,as are mine on our podcast
Teresa, are Christians andprobably have heard in church or
from other Christians orwhatever, that God says this is
what you're supposed to do withyour sex life and the standard
(06:52):
narrative of that kind ofinformation.
It doesn't fit with manypeople's stories.
So many people have done thingsthat were not what that church
narrative says you're air quotessupposed to do or maybe things
have happened to them what theylove, what they hate about their
(07:12):
bodies, about relationships,about intimacy, maybe abuse that
they happened or trauma, somekind of trauma and then acting
out of that things that theyhave done.
A common part of the story ofthose who have talked to me is
pornography, whether they wereexposed at a young age, men or
women and have wrestled withthat and simply saying do this
(07:35):
and don't do that.
It hasn't been very effective.
And so, as I was wrestling withthat in my own story and with
the people that were asking mefor input into their stories, it
just kind of came together thatJesus needs to come into the
middle of our story.
Thank you for noticing thatstory was such a big part of
(07:58):
this book.
I know that's a big part ofyour work, teresa helping people
look at that and stories withwomen in the Bible who have
struggled with sexual stuff.
In the book I bring in vignettesof a lot of people.
Some of them are individuals,some of them are composites from
people I have worked with whohave struggled with some area
(08:26):
around their sex life from alldifferent angles.
Because I think what Jesuswould say is it doesn't matter
the particulars of your story.
You can come, you can bring theparticulars of your story and
let's work with that, let's findtransformation.
And looking at thoseparticulars with honesty and
(08:50):
compassion is where we have togo with our story.
Just trying harder doesn't work.
Collapsing in shame doesn't getyou anywhere.
So what I found in my own storyand helping other people
wrestle with their story that'show this came to be.
Speaker 2 (09:11):
Yes, yes, and I love those two words honesty and
compassion so important tohonestly look at what we've
walked through and to look at itcompassionately.
I feel like we kind of tend tolean toward one or the other.
I can honestly tell you thethings that are wrong and the
things that I've done and thingshave been done to me without a
(09:32):
compassionate voice, orsometimes we can just be all
about compassion but not reallyhonest and facing the things
that we need to face.
So I love that you bring boththings that we need to face.
So I love that you bring both.
And one of the things that youtalk about is how often this is
a Christian podcast and most ofmy listeners are believers and
(09:54):
in the church there has been alot of focus on behavior, on
right and wrong.
This is sin, this is not sin.
So what's helpful about thatand what is not helpful about
that kind of an approach?
Speaker 1 (10:09):
There is a thing called sin.
You cannot read the Bible andfollow Jesus without saying that
there is a thing called sin.
But when we make sin primarilyabout behaviors, we miss so much
of the full story around it andI imagine some of our listeners
(10:33):
right now, teresa, have feltlike, well, I'm sinning, I just
better buck up, I better tryharder.
And I find myself not doingthat.
When we say that sin isbehavior, it is and behaviors
have consequences.
Things that we do, for example,with our bodies.
It makes a difference.
(10:53):
We're talking about sexuality.
You know, pregnancy, a sexuallytransmitted infection, impact
on the heart.
You know, if I go from onehookup to another, my heart gets
wounded.
All of our behaviors haveconsequences and there's
something deeper.
Jesus cares about behaviors.
They matter to him.
(11:15):
But if there's anything Jesuscares about more, it's about
matters of the heart and we mustget one level deeper and look
at the matters of the heart whenit particularly comes to
matters around sex and sexuality.
Jesus talked about this in theSermon on the Mount.
He said you've heard it saiddon't commit adultery.
(11:37):
But I say to you, if you lookat a woman to lust after her, in
your heart you have alreadycommitted adultery with her.
So there's a heart levelunderneath and for all the good
work that the Christian churchhas done in so many areas, I
think focusing on behaviorsaround sex often has missed the
(11:59):
matters of the heart.
And those matters of the heartmatter to God.
And I have found in myself andin others that when you bring in
the matters of the heart anddeal with that, then the
behaviors take on a wholedifferent level and in one sense
are a lot easier to deal with.
(12:20):
It's not that you don't have todo something about the
behaviors, but they lose theirhooks on you when you deal with
the matters of the heart.
Speaker 2 (12:30):
Yes, yes, I agree with that a hundred percent.
I think you know we, ourbehaviors, stem from our heart.
So unless we are dealing withour hearts first, the behaviors
are just a symptom of what'sgoing on deeper.
So I appreciate that so much.
Another thing that you talkabout in the book and I loved
this and I think that so many ofus miss it that sex and
(12:54):
intimacy are related but they'renot the same, and I really want
to dive into this concept.
I want you to talk about whatdo you mean by they're related
and they're not the same, andwhy is it so important for us to
understand this?
Because I think this might be anew concept for some people.
I'm not sure it definitely is anewly formed concept for me.
Speaker 1 (13:20):
The King James Version of the Bible often uses
a euphemism for sex, as we do,we often use euphemisms for sex.
The King James Version of theOld Testament often uses to know
.
No, and frankly, that is what'sin the Hebrew.
Adam knew Eve and they had ababy.
(13:42):
That connects sex and intimacy.
That is the way God intended itto be.
God intended intimacy and sexto be connected within covenant
marriage in an absolutelyglorious and beautiful way.
The very first picture of this,I would say Genesis 2.25,.
(14:06):
The man and the woman werenaked and they knew no shame, no
clothes on their bodies andunashamed and they knew no shame
, no clothes on their bodies andunashamed.
Have you and I ever experiencedthat I certainly haven't Right,
but the point is there also wereno coverings over their minds
and hearts and souls Also,that's the sense of the original
(14:26):
Hebrew.
So you cannot experienceintimacy just by taking the
clothes off your bodies.
I think our listeners willrecognize that If you have gone
from hookup to hookup to hookupoutside of marriage.
Is that really intimacy?
Is that part of your soul thatis longing for connection,
getting satisfied?
(14:47):
I believe this also appliesinside marriage.
There are plenty of marriageswhere little or no intimacy is
happening, whether or not sex ishappening.
So when you think, if I takethe clothes off my body, am I
really experiencing intimacy?
You can within marriage, butthey don't necessarily have to
(15:10):
be connected.
There can be plenty of sexwithout intimacy, regardless of
relationship status.
And, as Jesus himselfdemonstrated, you can and we
need intimacy even if you're nothaving sex or if you're not
married, regardless again ofrelationship status.
(15:30):
When you think of Jesus, themost fully alive human being
ever to walk this earth, yet henever was married and he never
had sex, but he needed intimacy,just like every one of us human
beings do.
Intimacy, I would say, is thesense of seeing and being seen,
(15:52):
knowing and being known.
I think our hearts all hungerfor that, if we just pause long
enough to recognize it.
Jesus, also in human form, hadthat honest need.
How did he deal with that?
First of all, it was 24 7connection with his heavenly
(16:14):
father.
Intimacy with his heavenlyfather was the air jesus
breathed.
He lived in that every moment.
But there is also a sense inwhich that wasn't air quotes
enough for jesus.
He also needed people anddeeply sought intimacy with a
few others.
He needed Peter, james and John.
(16:37):
So for those like myself who arenot married, my husband passed
away.
I am now living single again.
For those like myself who arenot married, I need that kind of
connection with a few otherhumans.
That doesn't mean I take theclothes off my body, but I need
to find the places where I cantake the coverings off my heart
(17:01):
and experience knowing and beingknown For married people.
That is part of what you mustpursue with your spouse.
Pursue taking the coverings offyour heart also.
And in marriage, bringing thattogether with the physical union
in sex, there's something thatis kind of in fact it is
(17:25):
exhilarating when that happenswithin marriage and when it
includes the physical componentof sex.
That, I believe, is what Godintended when he created sex as
an object.
Lesson of the intimacy heexperiences in himself, god, the
Father, god the Son and God theHoly Spirit, so intimate we are
(17:46):
told to think of him as one God, and he is.
And sex within marriage was aphysical object.
Lesson of that.
And yet, as human beings we all, regardless of relationship
status, still need that sense ofconnection and being known and
seen.
Speaker 2 (18:03):
Yes, I love what you said about take the covering off
of my heart, like that.
That is something I I thinkthat many people have done that
at one time or another and theywere wounded, and so now I'm not
taking that covering off myheart.
(18:23):
What would you say to theperson?
Because, because intimacy isscary, it's risky, it's
vulnerable and and if you'vebeen hurt and you've been
wounded, that's a scary thing todo.
What do you say to that personwho's listening and saying, yeah
, I did that once, or maybeseveral times, and this is the
(18:45):
result and no thanks, I'm notdoing that again absolutely
understandable.
Speaker 1 (18:53):
I can see why you would say no thanks, I'm never
doing that again.
That was part of my story in mygrowing up in a dysfunctional
family, with all the sexualdysfunction I mean, there was
just a whole bunch of stuff.
I had thick walls around myheart and it was no thank you,
even though I knew there wassome hunger there, but no way
(19:17):
was I going to go there.
How would Jesus look at someonewho felt that way?
I think he would likely saysomething similar to what he
said to the woman in John 4.
We often call her the woman atthe well, for we often call her
(19:39):
the woman at the.
Well, he would say I see you andlet's deal with this, the
invitation to a safe place tolook at the walls, to look at
what happened to you.
It's not first, what have youdone, although that matters but
even more deeply behind that,what happened to you?
(20:01):
You didn't wake up one day anddecide to have issues, sexual
issues or otherwise.
You didn't wake up one day anddecide I'm going to close off my
heart, I'm going to close offmy body or I'm going to use my
body to get something, becauseit's the only way I can get
anything.
You came to that from somewhereand I believe Jesus would
(20:21):
invite us to ask that questiondeeply, not to the exclusion of
the behaviors, but to look atthose matters of the heart, at
where have you been wounded,what are the wounds you have
accumulated, what are the liesthat you have been led to
(20:43):
believe, what are the emptyplaces in your soul that you are
still trying to fill in someways, maybe sort of okay, in
some ways, perhaps veryillegitimately, and to look at
those things.
So it's not okay.
You better get your acttogether, let the walls down
(21:03):
around your heart and findintimacy.
It's the process of finding thehealing so that you can let the
walls down around your heart.
It's a step-by-step thing.
Some people who have beenwounded look at trust or letting
the walls down around theirheart or something like that, as
an all-or-nothing phenomenon.
(21:24):
Okay, I've got walls down.
Okay, that's not serving mewell, so now I'll let them all
down and no boundaries, andthat's no healthier.
And so for the person who hasbeen wounded, it's often I stick
one toe in the water and I findwhere I can be accepted with a
(21:47):
little bit of safety.
I learned to trust my gut, so tospeak.
Not that my gut is all knowing.
Learned to trust my gut, so tospeak.
Not that my gut is all knowingthat.
I learned to listen to the partof me the God given sensitivity
that this is safe or not safe.
Now, that can get distorted too.
That's only part of theequation.
But I learned to listen to thatand I learned to trust the part
(22:13):
of me that can make a decision,that has agency in managing
relationships.
I learned that there are somerisks worth taking and I gather
the courage to take a small riskand practice.
And when I get a little better,I can risk a little bit more
(22:36):
and practice a little bit more.
That's the process.
Not all at once.
Yes, a little bit at a time,and that is worth the struggle
to learn that.
Speaker 2 (22:51):
I love that you call it a process.
I think that's so true, and itgives people permission to not
feel like they just have to dothis big thing all at once, but
it gives them permission to takeit slow and to be sensitive and
to, like you said, dip your toein the water, and so I think
that's a great, that's greatadvice.
(23:11):
You've alluded to your story acouple of times and I know
you've shared it publicly.
Would you be willing to sharejust as much as you're
comfortable about your ownpersonal story with the
listeners?
Speaker 1 (23:35):
I was born and reading the Bible, but I also
grew up in an extremelydysfunctional household.
There was a lot of dysfunctionthere, including sexual
dysfunction.
By the time I became a youngwoman, I was in deep distress
and God had a lot of things toteach me, as he did, and I
started to become functional.
I felt like my heart needed andwas ready to pursue intimacy.
(24:00):
This was in my 30s.
I wanted to be married.
I never had been married and Iwas wanting and hungering for
relationships.
And in that process there was atime I found myself alone in a
hotel room with a married man.
I knew why he was there.
(24:21):
That was very quickly obvious.
But why was I there?
That experience rocked my world.
It kind of jerked me up.
I at that point found myself onthe verge of doing something I
had said I would never do and upuntil then had not done.
Why had I allowed myself to getinto that situation?
(24:42):
I had to look at the wounds Ihad, the lies I had believed and
the empty places in my soulthat led me to that vulnerable
place me to that vulnerableplace In my particular story, as
God would have it.
Out of my mouth came the words.
I can't do this.
I must be about my father'sbusiness.
It was God's rescue.
My clothes did not come off, heleft.
That was a miracle in mysituation, but it did push me to
(25:09):
have to deal with these placesin my heart.
I did.
It was not easy work but I'm sograteful that I did In my story
.
A period of time after that, godbrought my husband into my life
and that process of having todeal with those places in my
(25:31):
heart allowed me to be open whenGod did bring a loving husband
into my world.
My wedding night was beautifuland we were able to experience a
very happy, intimate, sexuallyintimate marriage until he
passed away.
But that process of having tolook at those places in my heart
(25:51):
help me understand both howdifficult it is, the time and
effort that it takes, but alsothe true and honest healing that
Jesus can bring.
Although I remember the partsof my dysfunctional past in that
hotel room with the, you know,it's not that I have forgotten
(26:15):
those things, but those thingsare healed scars.
They are not open wounds in me.
God truly brought me a degree ofhealing so that those scars can
become demonstrations of hisgrace and that I don't have to.
I don't have to try and hidethem.
(26:35):
It's not that I parade badthings I did or that happened to
me, but they are examples ofhis grace and I can make them
available as an invitation forothers.
My scars aren't going to beidentical to your scars, but
just the fact that we are allare all scarred.
I can make that available toothers to say, yeah, if God can
(26:59):
do that for me, he can do thatfor you too.
Let's walk this together.
Speaker 2 (27:02):
You are speaking my language.
I love that illustration aboutthe scars because I really I
feel so strongly that God wantsus to bear our scars as a
testimony to his grace.
I think about Jesus rising fromthe dead and keeping his scars
as a symbol of victory.
(27:23):
He said here touch them, lookat them, put your hands in them.
This is the power of God thathe could raise me from the dead.
And that's what your story hasbecome.
It's become this testimony oflook at what God has done, and
so somebody else who is outthere bleeding out can look at
(27:43):
you and say God has done thatfor her and so he can do this
for me.
So, so beautiful.
I'm gonna break in and interruptthis conversation right here,
but make sure you come back nextweek, where Dr Carol will talk
to us about sexuality andsingleness, about the spiritual
(28:04):
and biological and emotionalfactors that contribute to our
sexual decisions, and also shegives clear pathways to healing.
In the meanwhile, you want togo and check out all of her
amazing resources.
I will have links to her book,to a free resource that she has
created and to all the ways thatyou can connect with Dr Carol.
(28:26):
If you enjoyed this podcast.
Would you be willing to taketwo minutes, get on Apple
Podcasts and leave a five-starrating and review?
That is one way you can partnerwith me to spread the word
about Find Hope here.
In closing, I want to leave youwith this prayer from Romans 15
, 13.
May the God of hope fill youwith all joy and peace in
(28:50):
believing so that, by the powerof the Holy Spirit, you may
abound in hope.
There was a time I found myself alone in a hotel
room with a married man.
I knew why he was there, thatwas very quickly obvious.
But why was I there?
That experience rocked my world.
It kind of jerked me up.
I at that point found myself onthe verge of doing something I
(00:23):
had said I would never do and upuntil then had not done.
Why had I allowed myself to getinto that situation?
I had to look at the wounds Ihad, the lies I had believed and
the empty places in my soulthat led me to that vulnerable
place.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
Hi, friend, you're listening to Find Hope.
Here.
I'm your host, teresa Whiting.
Author, speaker, ministryleader, friend and fellow
struggler.
This is a podcast about themessy, complicated, painful
parts of life, but also thebeautiful, joy-filled hope that
(01:04):
Jesus promises.
Each week we dig deep intoGod's Word together and talk
about how His truth impacts oureveryday lives.
I'm not going to ask you to sitwith me and have coffee,
because I seem to have my bestconversations while I'm just
doing life, so I'd love to hangout with you as you walk or fold
laundry or drive to work.
(01:25):
You're invited to join me inpursuing the hope God promises,
no matter where you are or whereyou've been.
I pray you always find hopehere.
Let's jump in to today's episode.
Well, welcome friends.
I am excited to introduce youto my guests.
(01:47):
Today I have Dr CarolTanks-Leon, and Dr Carol is an
author, speaker, podcaster,licensed OBGYN physician and
ordained minister.
She's an expert on integratedwholeness for body, mind and
soul, and she founded Dr CarolMinistries to help people
experience wholeness, as Godintended.
(02:08):
I also want to let thelisteners know that I had the
opportunity to be on Dr Carol'spodcast, and so I'm going to put
a link to that in the shownotes so you can make sure you
go over and listen to that.
But while we begin, dr Carol,if you could just tell the
listeners a little bit moreabout yourself, who you are and
what you do.
Speaker 1 (02:29):
Well, thank you, Teresa, and it was such a
pleasure to have you on ourpodcast.
That conversation was sospecial to me and honored that
you want to share that with yourlisteners.
But as far as me yeah, I'm anOBGYN physician for about 30
years I would have never, everimagined that God would have me
(02:50):
doing what he has me doing now.
Maybe 10 years or so into mymedical practice I felt very
clearly from the Lord that hehad something a little unique
for me to do and so that throughsome wrestling, ended up going
to seminary and I got my Masterof Divinity and then Doctor of
(03:12):
Ministry and pursued that andfor a number of years was sort
of doing a dual track medicineand ministry and found that very
beautiful and fulfilling.
A couple of years ago theministry part of what I've been
doing had just continued to growand stopped actively seeing
(03:34):
patients in a medical setting,although I still have my license
.
But what I see God doing withme now is bringing the
theological and the scientific,medical and my own experience
with my own story and with theother people that I've been
privileged to work with, to someof the most tender and
(03:55):
important places that, first ofall, our culture is wrestling
with and then that we as humanswrestle with and that God wants
to bring the healing andtransformation that Jesus came
to bring us all.
And the area aroundrelationships, intimacy and
sexuality is such a big part ofthat and I know, Teresa, that is
(04:16):
, I would imagine, a surprisethat God has you speaking into
that.
But it's both a privilege and,in a sense, of weight to be
tasked and invited to helppeople as God is bringing them,
to deal with some of these mosttender, important places in our
(04:37):
souls.
Speaker 2 (04:38):
Yes, yes, absolutely.
I feel that same weight, as yousaid, because the
responsibility of when you feellike God is saying, okay, I want
you to speak into this, andyou're kind of resistant and
saying, god, is this really thearea you want me to speak into?
But you wrote a book recentlyentitled Sexpectations Reframing
(05:00):
your Good and Not so Goodstories about God, love and
relationships, and I'm going toshow it to anybody who's
watching the YouTube.
This is the cover, and I justfinished reading this book.
And, dr Carol, I just want totell you what I love about it.
First of all, I love that you'retalking about stories.
I think it is so important forus to get in touch with the
(05:23):
stories that we have lived andthe parts of our stories that we
don't want to face or maybetalk about or think about.
And you really help the readerto kind of be willing to go into
their story, especially as itpertains to their sexuality and
some of the things that theyhave experienced.
And then also, I love at theend of every chapter.
(05:46):
You have this beautiful what doyou call it?
It's like a narrative thatweaves all the way through the
book.
I couldn't wait to get to theend of every chapter so I could
read that next part of the story.
It was such a beautifuladdition to the book, but I'm
curious what led you to writethis book in the first place.
Speaker 1 (06:09):
Primarily because people were asking me for help
in this area of their lifearound sexuality and I realized
my story played into this and Iwas seeing in people's lives
that information was notadequately helping the troubles
(06:31):
that they had.
I'm sure many of your listeners,as are mine on our podcast
Teresa, are Christians andprobably have heard in church or
from other Christians orwhatever, that God says this is
what you're supposed to do withyour sex life and the standard
(06:52):
narrative of that kind ofinformation.
It doesn't fit with manypeople's stories.
So many people have done thingsthat were not what that church
narrative says you're air quotessupposed to do or maybe things
have happened to them what theylove, what they hate about their
(07:12):
bodies, about relationships,about intimacy, maybe abuse that
they happened or trauma, somekind of trauma and then acting
out of that things that theyhave done.
A common part of the story ofthose who have talked to me is
pornography, whether they wereexposed at a young age, men or
women and have wrestled withthat and simply saying do this
(07:35):
and don't do that.
It hasn't been very effective.
And so, as I was wrestling withthat in my own story and with
the people that were asking mefor input into their stories, it
just kind of came together thatJesus needs to come into the
middle of our story.
Thank you for noticing thatstory was such a big part of
(07:58):
this book.
I know that's a big part ofyour work, teresa helping people
look at that and stories withwomen in the Bible who have
struggled with sexual stuff.
In the book I bring in vignettesof a lot of people.
Some of them are individuals,some of them are composites from
people I have worked with whohave struggled with some area
(08:26):
around their sex life from alldifferent angles.
Because I think what Jesuswould say is it doesn't matter
the particulars of your story.
You can come, you can bring theparticulars of your story and
let's work with that, let's findtransformation.
And looking at thoseparticulars with honesty and
(08:50):
compassion is where we have togo with our story.
Just trying harder doesn't work.
Collapsing in shame doesn't getyou anywhere.
So what I found in my own storyand helping other people
wrestle with their story that'show this came to be.
Speaker 2 (09:11):
Yes, yes, and I love those two words honesty and
compassion so important tohonestly look at what we've
walked through and to look at itcompassionately.
I feel like we kind of tend tolean toward one or the other.
I can honestly tell you thethings that are wrong and the
things that I've done and thingshave been done to me without a
(09:32):
compassionate voice, orsometimes we can just be all
about compassion but not reallyhonest and facing the things
that we need to face.
So I love that you bring boththings that we need to face.
So I love that you bring both.
And one of the things that youtalk about is how often this is
a Christian podcast and most ofmy listeners are believers and
(09:54):
in the church there has been alot of focus on behavior, on
right and wrong.
This is sin, this is not sin.
So what's helpful about thatand what is not helpful about
that kind of an approach?
Speaker 1 (10:09):
There is a thing called sin.
You cannot read the Bible andfollow Jesus without saying that
there is a thing called sin.
But when we make sin primarilyabout behaviors, we miss so much
of the full story around it andI imagine some of our listeners
(10:33):
right now, teresa, have feltlike, well, I'm sinning, I just
better buck up, I better tryharder.
And I find myself not doingthat.
When we say that sin isbehavior, it is and behaviors
have consequences.
Things that we do, for example,with our bodies.
It makes a difference.
(10:53):
We're talking about sexuality.
You know, pregnancy, a sexuallytransmitted infection, impact
on the heart.
You know, if I go from onehookup to another, my heart gets
wounded.
All of our behaviors haveconsequences and there's
something deeper.
Jesus cares about behaviors.
They matter to him.
(11:15):
But if there's anything Jesuscares about more, it's about
matters of the heart and we mustget one level deeper and look
at the matters of the heart whenit particularly comes to
matters around sex and sexuality.
Jesus talked about this in theSermon on the Mount.
He said you've heard it saiddon't commit adultery.
(11:37):
But I say to you, if you lookat a woman to lust after her, in
your heart you have alreadycommitted adultery with her.
So there's a heart levelunderneath and for all the good
work that the Christian churchhas done in so many areas, I
think focusing on behaviorsaround sex often has missed the
(11:59):
matters of the heart.
And those matters of the heartmatter to God.
And I have found in myself andin others that when you bring in
the matters of the heart anddeal with that, then the
behaviors take on a wholedifferent level and in one sense
are a lot easier to deal with.
(12:20):
It's not that you don't have todo something about the
behaviors, but they lose theirhooks on you when you deal with
the matters of the heart.
Speaker 2 (12:30):
Yes, yes, I agree with that a hundred percent.
I think you know we, ourbehaviors, stem from our heart.
So unless we are dealing withour hearts first, the behaviors
are just a symptom of what'sgoing on deeper.
So I appreciate that so much.
Another thing that you talkabout in the book and I loved
this and I think that so many ofus miss it that sex and
(12:54):
intimacy are related but they'renot the same, and I really want
to dive into this concept.
I want you to talk about whatdo you mean by they're related
and they're not the same, andwhy is it so important for us to
understand this?
Because I think this might be anew concept for some people.
I'm not sure it definitely is anewly formed concept for me.
Speaker 1 (13:20):
The King James Version of the Bible often uses
a euphemism for sex, as we do,we often use euphemisms for sex.
The King James Version of theOld Testament often uses to know
.
No, and frankly, that is what'sin the Hebrew.
Adam knew Eve and they had ababy.
(13:42):
That connects sex and intimacy.
That is the way God intended itto be.
God intended intimacy and sexto be connected within covenant
marriage in an absolutelyglorious and beautiful way.
The very first picture of this,I would say Genesis 2.25,.
(14:06):
The man and the woman werenaked and they knew no shame, no
clothes on their bodies andunashamed and they knew no shame
, no clothes on their bodies andunashamed.
Have you and I ever experiencedthat I certainly haven't Right,
but the point is there also wereno coverings over their minds
and hearts and souls Also,that's the sense of the original
(14:26):
Hebrew.
So you cannot experienceintimacy just by taking the
clothes off your bodies.
I think our listeners willrecognize that If you have gone
from hookup to hookup to hookupoutside of marriage.
Is that really intimacy?
Is that part of your soul thatis longing for connection,
getting satisfied?
(14:47):
I believe this also appliesinside marriage.
There are plenty of marriageswhere little or no intimacy is
happening, whether or not sex ishappening.
So when you think, if I takethe clothes off my body, am I
really experiencing intimacy?
You can within marriage, butthey don't necessarily have to
(15:10):
be connected.
There can be plenty of sexwithout intimacy, regardless of
relationship status.
And, as Jesus himselfdemonstrated, you can and we
need intimacy even if you're nothaving sex or if you're not
married, regardless again ofrelationship status.
(15:30):
When you think of Jesus, themost fully alive human being
ever to walk this earth, yet henever was married and he never
had sex, but he needed intimacy,just like every one of us human
beings do.
Intimacy, I would say, is thesense of seeing and being seen,
(15:52):
knowing and being known.
I think our hearts all hungerfor that, if we just pause long
enough to recognize it.
Jesus, also in human form, hadthat honest need.
How did he deal with that?
First of all, it was 24 7connection with his heavenly
(16:14):
father.
Intimacy with his heavenlyfather was the air jesus
breathed.
He lived in that every moment.
But there is also a sense inwhich that wasn't air quotes
enough for jesus.
He also needed people anddeeply sought intimacy with a
few others.
He needed Peter, james and John.
(16:37):
So for those like myself who arenot married, my husband passed
away.
I am now living single again.
For those like myself who arenot married, I need that kind of
connection with a few otherhumans.
That doesn't mean I take theclothes off my body, but I need
to find the places where I cantake the coverings off my heart
(17:01):
and experience knowing and beingknown For married people.
That is part of what you mustpursue with your spouse.
Pursue taking the coverings offyour heart also.
And in marriage, bringing thattogether with the physical union
in sex, there's something thatis kind of in fact it is
(17:25):
exhilarating when that happenswithin marriage and when it
includes the physical componentof sex.
That, I believe, is what Godintended when he created sex as
an object.
Lesson of the intimacy heexperiences in himself, god, the
Father, god the Son and God theHoly Spirit, so intimate we are
(17:46):
told to think of him as one God, and he is.
And sex within marriage was aphysical object.
Lesson of that.
And yet, as human beings we all, regardless of relationship
status, still need that sense ofconnection and being known and
seen.
Speaker 2 (18:03):
Yes, I love what you said about take the covering off
of my heart, like that.
That is something I I thinkthat many people have done that
at one time or another and theywere wounded, and so now I'm not
taking that covering off myheart.
(18:23):
What would you say to theperson?
Because, because intimacy isscary, it's risky, it's
vulnerable and and if you'vebeen hurt and you've been
wounded, that's a scary thing todo.
What do you say to that personwho's listening and saying, yeah
, I did that once, or maybeseveral times, and this is the
(18:45):
result and no thanks, I'm notdoing that again absolutely
understandable.
Speaker 1 (18:53):
I can see why you would say no thanks, I'm never
doing that again.
That was part of my story in mygrowing up in a dysfunctional
family, with all the sexualdysfunction I mean, there was
just a whole bunch of stuff.
I had thick walls around myheart and it was no thank you,
even though I knew there wassome hunger there, but no way
(19:17):
was I going to go there.
How would Jesus look at someonewho felt that way?
I think he would likely saysomething similar to what he
said to the woman in John 4.
We often call her the woman atthe well, for we often call her
(19:39):
the woman at the.
Well, he would say I see you andlet's deal with this, the
invitation to a safe place tolook at the walls, to look at
what happened to you.
It's not first, what have youdone, although that matters but
even more deeply behind that,what happened to you?
(20:01):
You didn't wake up one day anddecide to have issues, sexual
issues or otherwise.
You didn't wake up one day anddecide I'm going to close off my
heart, I'm going to close offmy body or I'm going to use my
body to get something, becauseit's the only way I can get
anything.
You came to that from somewhereand I believe Jesus would
(20:21):
invite us to ask that questiondeeply, not to the exclusion of
the behaviors, but to look atthose matters of the heart, at
where have you been wounded,what are the wounds you have
accumulated, what are the liesthat you have been led to
(20:43):
believe, what are the emptyplaces in your soul that you are
still trying to fill in someways, maybe sort of okay, in
some ways, perhaps veryillegitimately, and to look at
those things.
So it's not okay.
You better get your acttogether, let the walls down
(21:03):
around your heart and findintimacy.
It's the process of finding thehealing so that you can let the
walls down around your heart.
It's a step-by-step thing.
Some people who have beenwounded look at trust or letting
the walls down around theirheart or something like that, as
an all-or-nothing phenomenon.
(21:24):
Okay, I've got walls down.
Okay, that's not serving mewell, so now I'll let them all
down and no boundaries, andthat's no healthier.
And so for the person who hasbeen wounded, it's often I stick
one toe in the water and I findwhere I can be accepted with a
(21:47):
little bit of safety.
I learned to trust my gut, so tospeak.
Not that my gut is all knowing.
Learned to trust my gut, so tospeak.
Not that my gut is all knowingthat.
I learned to listen to the partof me the God given sensitivity
that this is safe or not safe.
Now, that can get distorted too.
That's only part of theequation.
But I learned to listen to thatand I learned to trust the part
(22:13):
of me that can make a decision,that has agency in managing
relationships.
I learned that there are somerisks worth taking and I gather
the courage to take a small riskand practice.
And when I get a little better,I can risk a little bit more
(22:36):
and practice a little bit more.
That's the process.
Not all at once.
Yes, a little bit at a time,and that is worth the struggle
to learn that.
Speaker 2 (22:51):
I love that you call it a process.
I think that's so true, and itgives people permission to not
feel like they just have to dothis big thing all at once, but
it gives them permission to takeit slow and to be sensitive and
to, like you said, dip your toein the water, and so I think
that's a great, that's greatadvice.
(23:11):
You've alluded to your story acouple of times and I know
you've shared it publicly.
Would you be willing to sharejust as much as you're
comfortable about your ownpersonal story with the
listeners?
Speaker 1 (23:35):
I was born and reading the Bible, but I also
grew up in an extremelydysfunctional household.
There was a lot of dysfunctionthere, including sexual
dysfunction.
By the time I became a youngwoman, I was in deep distress
and God had a lot of things toteach me, as he did, and I
started to become functional.
I felt like my heart needed andwas ready to pursue intimacy.
(24:00):
This was in my 30s.
I wanted to be married.
I never had been married and Iwas wanting and hungering for
relationships.
And in that process there was atime I found myself alone in a
hotel room with a married man.
I knew why he was there.
(24:21):
That was very quickly obvious.
But why was I there?
That experience rocked my world.
It kind of jerked me up.
I at that point found myself onthe verge of doing something I
had said I would never do and upuntil then had not done.
Why had I allowed myself to getinto that situation?
(24:42):
I had to look at the wounds Ihad, the lies I had believed and
the empty places in my soulthat led me to that vulnerable
place me to that vulnerableplace In my particular story, as
God would have it.
Out of my mouth came the words.
I can't do this.
I must be about my father'sbusiness.
It was God's rescue.
My clothes did not come off, heleft.
That was a miracle in mysituation, but it did push me to
(25:09):
have to deal with these placesin my heart.
I did.
It was not easy work but I'm sograteful that I did In my story
.
A period of time after that, godbrought my husband into my life
and that process of having todeal with those places in my
(25:31):
heart allowed me to be open whenGod did bring a loving husband
into my world.
My wedding night was beautifuland we were able to experience a
very happy, intimate, sexuallyintimate marriage until he
passed away.
But that process of having tolook at those places in my heart
(25:51):
help me understand both howdifficult it is, the time and
effort that it takes, but alsothe true and honest healing that
Jesus can bring.
Although I remember the partsof my dysfunctional past in that
hotel room with the, you know,it's not that I have forgotten
(26:15):
those things, but those thingsare healed scars.
They are not open wounds in me.
God truly brought me a degree ofhealing so that those scars can
become demonstrations of hisgrace and that I don't have to.
I don't have to try and hidethem.
(26:35):
It's not that I parade badthings I did or that happened to
me, but they are examples ofhis grace and I can make them
available as an invitation forothers.
My scars aren't going to beidentical to your scars, but
just the fact that we are allare all scarred.
I can make that available toothers to say, yeah, if God can
(26:59):
do that for me, he can do thatfor you too.
Let's walk this together.
Speaker 2 (27:02):
You are speaking my language.
I love that illustration aboutthe scars because I really I
feel so strongly that God wantsus to bear our scars as a
testimony to his grace.
I think about Jesus rising fromthe dead and keeping his scars
as a symbol of victory.
(27:23):
He said here touch them, lookat them, put your hands in them.
This is the power of God thathe could raise me from the dead.
And that's what your story hasbecome.
It's become this testimony oflook at what God has done, and
so somebody else who is outthere bleeding out can look at
(27:43):
you and say God has done thatfor her and so he can do this
for me.
So, so beautiful.
I'm gonna break in and interruptthis conversation right here,
but make sure you come back nextweek, where Dr Carol will talk
to us about sexuality andsingleness, about the spiritual
(28:04):
and biological and emotionalfactors that contribute to our
sexual decisions, and also shegives clear pathways to healing.
In the meanwhile, you want togo and check out all of her
amazing resources.
I will have links to her book,to a free resource that she has
created and to all the ways thatyou can connect with Dr Carol.
(28:26):
If you enjoyed this podcast.
Would you be willing to taketwo minutes, get on Apple
Podcasts and leave a five-starrating and review?
That is one way you can partnerwith me to spread the word
about Find Hope here.
In closing, I want to leave youwith this prayer from Romans 15
, 13.
May the God of hope fill youwith all joy and peace in
(28:50):
believing so that, by the powerof the Holy Spirit, you may
abound in hope.
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