In this episode, I speak with Dr. Juli Slattery about the growing issue of pornography addiction among women. We discuss how the porn industry has intentionally targeted women, the shame that keeps many trapped in silence, and the neurological and emotional factors that make it difficult to break free. Dr. Slattery shares insights from her book Her Freedom Journey, co-authored with Dr. Joy Skarka, which provides practical and biblical guidance for women seeking freedom from pornography. The conversation highlights the importance of surrendering to God's grace rather than simply trying harder and encourages women to find hope, healing, and community in their journey toward sexual wholeness.
Click here for show notes
Thanks for listening! If you like the podcast, you will love Teresa's weekly podcast update. Sign up here.
Order Graced: How God Redeems and Restores the Broken
Book Teresa to speak at an upcoming event!
Music: Home (Inspirational And Uplifting Acoustic Guitar) by Daniel Carrizalez
Any Amazon links on this page are affiliate links. To learn more about what that means, click here.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dr Juli Slattery (00:00):
The porn industry has intentionally gone
after creating porn that hookswomen, and so you know, people
say well, aren't men visual andwomen are not.
You know, women can be visuallyaroused too, and they tend to
want more of a storylineattached to that.
But the pornography industrybrings in more money than the
(00:23):
NBA, the Major League Baseballand NFL combined annually.
So you're talking about amulti-multi-billion dollar
industry that is very motivatedto get consumers hooked young,
male and female and so they'veaggressively gone after the
female market, gone after thefemale market.
Teresa Whiting (00:45):
Hi, friend, you're listening to Find Hope
here.
I'm your host, teresa Whiting.
Author, speaker, ministryleader, friend and fellow
struggler.
This is a podcast about themessy, complicated, painful
parts of life, but also thebeautiful, joy-filled hope that
(01:06):
Jesus promises.
Each week we dig deep intoGod's Word together and talk
about how His truth impacts oureveryday lives.
I'm not going to ask you to sitwith me and have coffee,
because I seem to have my bestconversations while I'm just
doing life.
So I'd love to hang out withyou as you walk or fold laundry
or drive to work.
(01:27):
You're invited to join me inpursuing the hope God promises,
no matter where you are or whereyou've been.
I pray you always find hopehere.
Let's jump in to today'sepisode.
Well, welcome friends.
I am so excited to introduceyou today to our guest.
(01:51):
Dr Julie Slattery is a clinicalpsychologist, author, speaker
and the president and co-founderof Authentic Intimacy, that's a
ministry devoted to reclaimingGod's design for sexuality.
She's the author of 12 booksand host of the weekly podcast
Java.
With Julie.
She and her husband, mike, arethe parents of three sons and
(02:13):
they live in Akron, ohio.
So, julie, welcome to Find Hopehere.
Oh, so good to be with you.
Thanks, teresa.
I'm just I can't tell you howexcited I am for this, for this
opportunity.
So, as we begin, why don't youjust tell the listeners a little
bit more about who you are andwhat you do?
Dr Juli Slattery (02:34):
Yeah, boy, the last 12 years God has called me
into this space of biblicalsexuality and before that I, as
you mentioned, I'm a clinicalpsychologist.
I was more kind of focused on,just like marriage and family
issues, women's issues kind ofmore generically.
(02:54):
And since 2012, like, this isthe space that I've inhabited
that God has called me to and Ihonestly have just been on a
learning journey with everybodyelse of searching the scriptures
, integrating biblical truthinto the real life, questions
(03:15):
and issues that we're grapplingwith and experiencing around
sexuality.
So everything from sex andmarriage to singleness, to
pornography and addiction,sexual abuse, recovery,
questions around gender identityand sexual identity.
So really discipling Christianson those topics and also, I'd
(03:38):
say, within the last four orfive years, spending a lot of
time equipping pastors andchurch leaders to do that work
within their own ministries.
Teresa Whiting (03:47):
Yes, yes, I have been actually following your
work for many, many years and Iam a huge fan.
But also I just so appreciatehow you step into this space,
which can be reallyuncomfortable for a lot of
people.
There's not a lot of people outthere talking about biblical
sexuality and I appreciate howyou come at it with practical
(04:09):
tools and biblical truth, Likeit's such a beautiful
integration and I'm just curious, like what made you step into
this space?
Dr Juli Slattery (04:19):
It was nothing short of God.
So, at the time, I was workingfor Focus on the Family, and
that was sort of my dream jobjust doing their daily broadcast
and communicating and learningall that and God just took me
through a season of about a yearof really seeking Him
(04:40):
personally and just transformedme in a way of knowing what
intimacy with him is, and duringthat season, he just burdened
my heart for the topic ofsexuality and sexual brokenness.
It was like he was just saying,hey, there are all these women
in particular who are crying outfor help.
(05:01):
You know like, where are you inmy loneliness, where are you in
my struggle?
And being at Focus, which is agreat ministry, I felt like all
we were doing, though, was, onthese issues, sort of dropping
care packages at 30,000 feet,and the church really didn't
know how to be in the trencheswith, uh, with people who were
suffering and asking hardquestions, and so he made it
(05:25):
really clear to me that that waswhat he was calling me to.
He sort of moved heaven andearth to show me as he's so
gracious to do when he asks usto do hard things, to the point
where I just couldn't say no andleft focus and co-founded the
ministry with Linda Dillillo whosome of your listeners might
(05:46):
know, but she is just awonderful spiritual mom and
encouraged me to take that stepof faith.
And then the ministry has justsort of evolved from there as
the questions continue to comeand as the need really increases
and the awareness increaseswithin the Christian church.
Teresa Whiting (06:05):
Yes, yes, I love Linda as well.
I think one of your first booksmight have been Intimate Issues
, which I read years ago.
Dr Juli Slattery (06:15):
So, yeah, linda wrote Intimate Issues
before I knew her with LorrainePintus.
Okay, so she has been in thisspace before I was, and she
would say to me, like I'mthrowing the mantle on you, like
you're taking it for thisgeneration, I'm like I don't
know if I want it Right rightand.
I did co-author Passion Pursuitand then Surprised by the
(06:37):
Healer, okay.
Teresa Whiting (06:39):
So you are in very good company on this
podcast, because we have beentalking about sexual brokenness
from the beginning.
That's kind of what startedthis podcast in the first place,
and so I know that my listenersare going to resonate with the
things that you have to share.
But, in particular we'retalking about today.
(06:59):
We're talking about women andporn.
And that is a topic that is soseldom talked about, and you and
Dr Joy Skarka just co-authoreda book together and it's called
Her Freedom Journey A Guide Outof Porn and Shame to Authentic
Intimacy, and I have a copy ofit right here and I just
(07:19):
finished reading it last weekand it is so life-giving.
I love it so much because it'sboth a personal journey I mean,
joy shares kind of her story butthere's also this component of
biblical integration and it's aworkbook and it's just so many
things wrapped in one.
(07:39):
So can you tell us, maybe, whyyou wrote the book, what's the
premise behind it?
Dr Juli Slattery (07:46):
Yeah.
So Joyce started writing thebook by just feeling called like
I need to share my story.
She wrote the first kind of takeat it or version and it was
pretty much all her story andshe asked me to look it over and
I was like, hey, I think wecould write something together
that not only is your story butalso, um, like a tool of not
(08:10):
just I mean, I think there's somuch to be gained by hearing
another woman's story andlearning from her Um, but then
when you add to it, like thepractical steps of, not just how
do you stop looking atpornography, but what are you
walking towards, what doeswholeness look like, how do you
get there?
And so then she and I journeyedtogether on that, with her
(08:33):
giving me what she had written,and I kind of went through and
integrated a lot of the thingsthat I've learned over the years
in terms of biblical sexuality,sexual brokenness and wholeness
.
And it's really neat to see howall the pieces came together,
because I do think, like if Ihad written it alone, it would
(08:54):
have been lacking so much of,like that compassionate voice
that's like, hey, I've been here, I know what this feels like,
because the journey of gettingfree from porn is not a one and
done.
And you know, for the womanwho's like, hey, I've confesses,
I prayed to God to take it awayand I'm still struggling.
(09:15):
That's the norm.
Every now and then you'll meetsomeone who has like this
radical one minutetransformation.
But ninety nine point fivepercent of people are going to
be on a journey, and so it'sgood to have somebody else with
you who's been on that journey,and so Joy's story and voice
throughout the book reallyreally encourages women on that.
Teresa Whiting (09:37):
Yes, yes, it's such a comprehensive guide and
and and she really comesalongside the reader as a friend
, Like I'm right here with you,which I love.
I love that voice that she lendsto the book.
So how big of an issue is womenin porn?
I mean, it's not something thatI've ever heard talked about.
(09:57):
The first time I even heard itever heard this talked about,
was when the two of you weretalking about it on Java with
Julie.
So is it a fringe problem?
Is it a big problem?
Tell us about what maybe thestatistics are.
Dr Juli Slattery (10:11):
Yeah, you know , I would say probably 20 years
ago it was more of a fringeproblem.
You know a lot of women if theywere getting involved in
pornography, many times it wasbecause a boyfriend or a husband
introduced them to it, and youknow the percentages were more
like 15 or 20 percent of womenwho had some sort of struggle
(10:33):
with pornography.
But we're seeing in the youngergenerations, like if you look
at 40 and younger, butparticularly Gen Z, that this is
actually a normal issue,unfortunately.
So I would say like when you'relooking at adolescents and
(10:56):
young adults, you're looking atover half of women who have a
significant porn struggle.
So you know, I think FiftyShades of Grey, when that first
came out, that kind of raisedthe awareness of pornography.
Can be written, it can beerotica.
There are a lot of women whoare getting pulled into it that
way.
But now, with a few things firstof all, smartphones and devices
(11:16):
like kids are getting exposedto porn, male or female, at the
youngest of ages.
Second of all, the pornindustry has intentionally gone
after creating porn that hookswomen, and so you know people
say, well, aren't men visual andwomen are not.
You know, women can be visuallyaroused too, and they tend to
(11:38):
want more of a storylineattached to that.
But the pornography industrybrings in more money than the
NBA, major League, baseball andNFL combined annually Wow, so
you're talking about a multi,multi-billion dollar industry
that is very motivated to getconsumers hooked young, male and
(12:02):
female and so they'veaggressively gone after the
female market and the result ofboth of those things, as well as
isolation, that we seeteenagers and young adults
experiencing it's just, you know, like I feel like we have to
assume now that you do have astruggle with porn until we find
(12:25):
out you don't.
And when I was first evenstarting in practice, it was the
opposite, like you'd assumemost people weren't struggling
until you found out that theywere, but that's completely
changed.
Teresa Whiting (12:37):
Wow, and here's the thing people aren't talking
about it.
I mean especially women, andespecially Christian women.
I think there's so much shameassociated with struggling with
porn.
Can you talk a little bit aboutthe shame that kind of keeps
women silent and sucks them in?
Dr Juli Slattery (13:08):
is very often paired with masturbation, which
is another highly shameful topicthat both men and women will
say they're struggling withshame if they have a porn
struggle.
And then you add on the layerof being a Christian and knowing
at some level like I shouldn'tbe struggling with this, there
must be something wrong with me.
Like every time I look at it,god must be disappointed in me,
(13:29):
he hates me, you know.
It creates an alienation fromGod where you feel like I can't
go to him, I can't ask him foranything.
And then you add the secondlayer.
The third layer really is I'm awoman and the narrative has
been, I think, for generationsthat women aren't sexual.
They're the gatekeepers who arekind of trying to keep the guys
(13:52):
at bay.
And men are visual and men haveall this sex drive.
And so if I'm a womanstruggling with this, then
there's really something wrongwith me.
And then you add to it you know, particularly with Gen Z, all
the messaging that, like sexpositivity, porn is good, you
should enjoy it, it'll teach youabout your body, it'll teach
(14:13):
you about your sexual identity.
So, teresa, like when youcombine all that, it's just like
, it's just massive.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's just.
And then women feel like theyhave nowhere to go, like to
confess it to get help.
Teresa Whiting (14:31):
So uh, yeah, is the message.
I'm just curious.
I don't know, but is themessage in the church today like
?
Are we adopting the world'smessage of like it's okay, it's
normal to masturbate Like thisis fine.
The world's message of likeit's okay, it's normal to
masturbate, like this is fine,this is good.
This is part of developing ahealthy sexual identity.
Is that a thing?
Dr Juli Slattery (14:55):
It depends.
When you say church, I feellike there's to kind of double
down with more of a shamemessage of you know this is
wrong, this is bad, this is sin,you should stop this.
So you hear that disagreeingwith you.
(15:22):
Know, maybe masturbation,pornography is okay, but the
underlying, the tenants andthinking that underlying porn
use is even more critical todiscern, and that is that sex is
all about you.
Like sex is about your pleasure, it's about your identity, is
about figuring out who you are.
(15:43):
Like sex is a need, and ifyou're going to be a healthy
adult, you should have freedomto explore and to kind of act
out what you feel will besatisfying to you.
And so there are a lot ofchurches who adopt that
underlying message and then theysay but don't look at porn.
(16:04):
So, um, and that's where it'sreally conflicting.
So I I think that's the biggerissue is that not just have we
maybe adopted pornography, butwe've adopted a worldview that
sets us up for even sex withinChristian marriage to be all
about what I want when I want it, about, again, it being a need.
(16:28):
And you know, sexuality is avery important part of who we
are.
But having sex and getting whatyou want sexually is not a need
, and so I think the work wehave to do is to get a lot
deeper into some of the culturallies that have sort of
infiltrated our thinking.
Teresa Whiting (16:47):
What are some of those lies?
What are the lies that webelieve and how do we break free
from those lies?
Dr Juli Slattery (16:54):
Yeah, there are so many.
Like I said, I think one ofthem is that sex is a need, and
to be a whole person, you haveto have a sexual outlet, you
have to have sexual release, youhave to explore sexuality, and
that's just really not true.
We don't see that in scripture.
We see that everyone is sexualbut not everyone is having sex
(17:20):
or needs to, and so resettingthat that really comes out of a
humanistic kind of postmodernworldview, not a biblical
worldview.
I think another lie would bethat women aren't sexual.
They are, and so I think, oncewe give women permission to
(17:41):
embrace the fact that, yes,you're, by God's design, a
sexual person, and there'snothing wrong with acknowledging
that, whether you're single ormarried, but we have to learn to
steward it.
So I think that's an importantlie that we need to uncover and
then to cycle towards.
What is it to steward mysexuality, I think lies like
(18:05):
individual women will believethis like I'm forever damaged
because I've looked at porn.
I'll never be set free.
I think also, just viewing pornas a behavior struggle is a big
one.
So the problem is this behaviorI can't stop.
Instead of realizing, like, howcomplicated our struggles with
(18:29):
sex and pornography can be.
It's often tied into identity.
It can be tied into past woundsand how I deal with depression
and loneliness.
And so when somebody just tellsyou to stop the behavior
without shepherding you throughwhat is that behavior actually
serving for you and where doesGod want to enter into your
(18:51):
wounds and your struggles?
Like?
That's another thing that Ithink is important to change yes
, yes, that is so good.
Teresa Whiting (18:58):
And and to to not just look at the behavior
but to figure, figure out.
You know, what is this stemmingfrom?
And going back to those thingsand bringing healing to those
places in our lives?
Because, you're right, ourbehaviors stem from our
attitudes, our thoughts, ourbeliefs, our past trauma, our
past experiences, and so all ofthat is going to contribute to
(19:21):
that.
So, let's say, a woman stepsinto the world of porn and then
it's like it gets its hooks inher, it's like it doesn't let go
.
What are some of those thingsthat keep you stuck?
Why does this happen?
Dr Juli Slattery (19:36):
Yeah, I think there are a few things.
Number one we know a lot moreabout neurobiology than we ever
had before and theneurotransmitters that are
released when you see somethingexciting sexually are powerful.
And if you think about God'soriginal design, he wanted that
(19:57):
first exposure to a of a husbandand wife, you know, being naked
together for the first time andenjoying sex for the first time
.
He wanted it to be like ahallmark experience, not the
movie hallmark, but like acornerstone of wow I want to
keep coming back to this.
This is awesome.
But when that first exposure isto pornography, you have these
(20:20):
neural pathways that arepowerful, that begin to develop
and draw you to want to go backto that again and again, and
pornography is designed to feedyou novel sexual experiences.
So whatever you looked at twoyears ago is not likely to have
(20:41):
the same neural response today,and so pornography will feed you
something?
just a little bit more excitingor different to have the same
neural response today.
And so pornography will feedyou something just a little bit
more exciting or different,riskier, which gives you a high.
It's very much like a drug andthat reinforces that neural
pathway.
So that's the first thing, isjust what's happening in the
neurobiology of our brains.
(21:03):
The second thing is thatPornography really does work
like a drug.
So great feelings that come fromdopamine and serotonin that
produce a sense of euphoria, butalso peace.
It's short lived, but when youfeel depressed, when you feel
(21:24):
rejected, when you feel lonely,like that's a quick fix.
And now it's readily available,with our access to porn being
in every device we have.
And so you start to becomedependent on that.
Um, in a similar way that youcould become dependent on, you
know, when I feel sad, I eat Benand Jerry's ice cream.
(21:46):
Or you know like I misuse agood gift.
So and that's really the shiftof thinking like sex is a good
gift, just like ice cream can bea good gift, but when we misuse
them and we become dependentupon them is when we start an
addictive cycle that can bereally harmful.
(22:07):
And then I think also thesecrecy in pornography.
The shame it really keeps usfrom like bringing this to
communities or people that canhelp us get set free.
Teresa Whiting (22:18):
Yeah, yeah, I think that perpetuates itself.
The shame keeps you silent,which keeps you trapped, which
keeps you more silent, whichkeeps you trapped, and you just
end up in this cycle of of beingstuck.
Um and so it's, so it's.
It's so hard to be the personto go first and say I am
struggling with this, and it'shard to find a safe place to
(22:40):
even do that, you know, becauseof the shame associated with it.
One of the things you talkabout in your book is, you know
why trying harder doesn't work,and I love this quote from page
145.
You say hard work is usuallymotivated by fear, surrender is
motivated by love and gratitude,and I'd love for you to talk a
(23:04):
little bit about why tryingharder doesn't set you free.
Dr Juli Slattery (23:13):
Why trying harder doesn't set you free.
Yeah, so you know, tryingharder is sort of making these
promises to yourself and Godthat I'm never going to look at
porn again.
If I do, I'm going to makemyself like run laps or you know
, like do something to punishmyself.
It's really more of awork-based approach to things
(23:33):
and, in general, like thatself-discipline doesn't work
long-term.
The people who do find anysuccess from that, they just
move their addiction tosomething else.
So maybe they're no longerlooking at porn, to something
(23:53):
else, so maybe they're no longerlooking at porn, but they're
overeating or they're vaping oryou name it.
They've become addicted toperformance.
So the invitation that God givesus is not clean up your act,
work harder and then come to me.
He's like I know you're a messand I know that there's nothing
you can do to save yourself.
(24:15):
Bring it to me, like when youlook at pornography, I'm in the
room, I knew that you weretempted by that before you even
knew you were tempted by it.
And so the approach ofsurrender that God invites us to
is not fix yourself and tryharder.
It's admit how helpless you areand bring it to me and trust me
(24:38):
and trust that my truth cantransform you, my love can
transform you, that myforgiveness and redemption of
your life is complete and beginto walk by faith in those things
of your life is complete andbegin to walk by faith in those
things.
And when you talk to people whohave really gotten set free
from any form of addiction,including sexual addiction or
pornography, it's when they'vecome to the end of themselves
(25:02):
and they're like, okay, no morehiding, no more, I'm just going
to tell a little bit and keepthe rest a secret.
It's like I am so desperate forhelp that I'll do anything and
I'm going to bring it all to Godand trust him and to show me
what the next steps are.
Teresa Whiting (25:20):
Yes, I love how you talked about that invitation
.
You know that Jesus iscontinuously inviting people
into relationship with himself,not after they clean themselves
up, not once they get it alltogether, but he's always saying
come to me.
And he's not saying, come tochurch, come to this list of
(25:41):
rules.
He's inviting us intorelationship with himself and I
think, as we see him and we knowthat he sees us for who we are
with and he's looking at us withcompassion and steadfast love
and faithfulness.
That loosens some of thosechains that compel us to
continue in that kind of anaddiction.
(26:03):
So I love that reminder thatit's an invitation to come as we
are, as we are, and then hedoesn't leave us there Like he
then transforms us.
It's so beautiful.
I'm going to break in andinterrupt this conversation
right here, but we will continueit next week.
If you struggle with yoursexuality, here are two things I
(26:26):
would encourage you to do rightnow is order a copy of Her
Freedom Journey and order a copyof Graced.
Those two resources togetherwill help lead you into a place
of freedom.
I'll have links to them and toeverything else that we talked
about today in the show notes.
In closing, I want to leave youwith this prayer from Romans 15
(26:48):
, 13.
May the God of hope fill youwith all joy and peace in
believing, so that, by the powerof the Holy Spirit, you may
abound in hope.
The porn industry has intentionally gone
after creating porn that hookswomen, and so you know, people
say well, aren't men visual andwomen are not.
You know, women can be visuallyaroused too, and they tend to
want more of a storylineattached to that.
But the pornography industrybrings in more money than the
(00:23):
NBA, the Major League Baseballand NFL combined annually.
So you're talking about amulti-multi-billion dollar
industry that is very motivatedto get consumers hooked young,
male and female and so they'veaggressively gone after the
female market, gone after thefemale market.
Teresa Whiting (00:45):
Hi, friend, you're listening to Find Hope
here.
I'm your host, teresa Whiting.
Author, speaker, ministryleader, friend and fellow
struggler.
This is a podcast about themessy, complicated, painful
parts of life, but also thebeautiful, joy-filled hope that
(01:06):
Jesus promises.
Each week we dig deep intoGod's Word together and talk
about how His truth impacts oureveryday lives.
I'm not going to ask you to sitwith me and have coffee,
because I seem to have my bestconversations while I'm just
doing life.
So I'd love to hang out withyou as you walk or fold laundry
or drive to work.
(01:27):
You're invited to join me inpursuing the hope God promises,
no matter where you are or whereyou've been.
I pray you always find hopehere.
Let's jump in to today'sepisode.
Well, welcome friends.
I am so excited to introduceyou today to our guest.
(01:51):
Dr Julie Slattery is a clinicalpsychologist, author, speaker
and the president and co-founderof Authentic Intimacy, that's a
ministry devoted to reclaimingGod's design for sexuality.
She's the author of 12 booksand host of the weekly podcast
Java.
With Julie.
She and her husband, mike, arethe parents of three sons and
(02:13):
they live in Akron, ohio.
So, julie, welcome to Find Hopehere.
Oh, so good to be with you.
Thanks, teresa.
I'm just I can't tell you howexcited I am for this, for this
opportunity.
So, as we begin, why don't youjust tell the listeners a little
bit more about who you are andwhat you do?
Dr Juli Slattery (02:34):
Yeah, boy, the last 12 years God has called me
into this space of biblicalsexuality and before that I, as
you mentioned, I'm a clinicalpsychologist.
I was more kind of focused on,just like marriage and family
issues, women's issues kind ofmore generically.
(02:54):
And since 2012, like, this isthe space that I've inhabited
that God has called me to and Ihonestly have just been on a
learning journey with everybodyelse of searching the scriptures
, integrating biblical truthinto the real life, questions
(03:15):
and issues that we're grapplingwith and experiencing around
sexuality.
So everything from sex andmarriage to singleness, to
pornography and addiction,sexual abuse, recovery,
questions around gender identityand sexual identity.
So really discipling Christianson those topics and also, I'd
(03:38):
say, within the last four orfive years, spending a lot of
time equipping pastors andchurch leaders to do that work
within their own ministries.
Teresa Whiting (03:47):
Yes, yes, I have been actually following your
work for many, many years and Iam a huge fan.
But also I just so appreciatehow you step into this space,
which can be reallyuncomfortable for a lot of
people.
There's not a lot of people outthere talking about biblical
sexuality and I appreciate howyou come at it with practical
(04:09):
tools and biblical truth, Likeit's such a beautiful
integration and I'm just curious, like what made you step into
this space?
Dr Juli Slattery (04:19):
It was nothing short of God.
So, at the time, I was workingfor Focus on the Family, and
that was sort of my dream jobjust doing their daily broadcast
and communicating and learningall that and God just took me
through a season of about a yearof really seeking Him
(04:40):
personally and just transformedme in a way of knowing what
intimacy with him is, and duringthat season, he just burdened
my heart for the topic ofsexuality and sexual brokenness.
It was like he was just saying,hey, there are all these women
in particular who are crying outfor help.
(05:01):
You know like, where are you inmy loneliness, where are you in
my struggle?
And being at Focus, which is agreat ministry, I felt like all
we were doing, though, was, onthese issues, sort of dropping
care packages at 30,000 feet,and the church really didn't
know how to be in the trencheswith, uh, with people who were
suffering and asking hardquestions, and so he made it
(05:25):
really clear to me that that waswhat he was calling me to.
He sort of moved heaven andearth to show me as he's so
gracious to do when he asks usto do hard things, to the point
where I just couldn't say no andleft focus and co-founded the
ministry with Linda Dillillo whosome of your listeners might
(05:46):
know, but she is just awonderful spiritual mom and
encouraged me to take that stepof faith.
And then the ministry has justsort of evolved from there as
the questions continue to comeand as the need really increases
and the awareness increaseswithin the Christian church.
Teresa Whiting (06:05):
Yes, yes, I love Linda as well.
I think one of your first booksmight have been Intimate Issues
, which I read years ago.
Dr Juli Slattery (06:15):
So, yeah, linda wrote Intimate Issues
before I knew her with LorrainePintus.
Okay, so she has been in thisspace before I was, and she
would say to me, like I'mthrowing the mantle on you, like
you're taking it for thisgeneration, I'm like I don't
know if I want it Right rightand.
I did co-author Passion Pursuitand then Surprised by the
(06:37):
Healer, okay.
Teresa Whiting (06:39):
So you are in very good company on this
podcast, because we have beentalking about sexual brokenness
from the beginning.
That's kind of what startedthis podcast in the first place,
and so I know that my listenersare going to resonate with the
things that you have to share.
But, in particular we'retalking about today.
(06:59):
We're talking about women andporn.
And that is a topic that is soseldom talked about, and you and
Dr Joy Skarka just co-authoreda book together and it's called
Her Freedom Journey A Guide Outof Porn and Shame to Authentic
Intimacy, and I have a copy ofit right here and I just
(07:19):
finished reading it last weekand it is so life-giving.
I love it so much because it'sboth a personal journey I mean,
joy shares kind of her story butthere's also this component of
biblical integration and it's aworkbook and it's just so many
things wrapped in one.
(07:39):
So can you tell us, maybe, whyyou wrote the book, what's the
premise behind it?
Dr Juli Slattery (07:46):
Yeah.
So Joyce started writing thebook by just feeling called like
I need to share my story.
She wrote the first kind of takeat it or version and it was
pretty much all her story andshe asked me to look it over and
I was like, hey, I think wecould write something together
that not only is your story butalso, um, like a tool of not
(08:10):
just I mean, I think there's somuch to be gained by hearing
another woman's story andlearning from her Um, but then
when you add to it, like thepractical steps of, not just how
do you stop looking atpornography, but what are you
walking towards, what doeswholeness look like, how do you
get there?
And so then she and I journeyedtogether on that, with her
(08:33):
giving me what she had written,and I kind of went through and
integrated a lot of the thingsthat I've learned over the years
in terms of biblical sexuality,sexual brokenness and wholeness
.
And it's really neat to see howall the pieces came together,
because I do think, like if Ihad written it alone, it would
(08:54):
have been lacking so much of,like that compassionate voice
that's like, hey, I've been here, I know what this feels like,
because the journey of gettingfree from porn is not a one and
done.
And you know, for the womanwho's like, hey, I've confesses,
I prayed to God to take it awayand I'm still struggling.
(09:15):
That's the norm.
Every now and then you'll meetsomeone who has like this
radical one minutetransformation.
But ninety nine point fivepercent of people are going to
be on a journey, and so it'sgood to have somebody else with
you who's been on that journey,and so Joy's story and voice
throughout the book reallyreally encourages women on that.
Teresa Whiting (09:37):
Yes, yes, it's such a comprehensive guide and
and and she really comesalongside the reader as a friend
, Like I'm right here with you,which I love.
I love that voice that she lendsto the book.
So how big of an issue is womenin porn?
I mean, it's not something thatI've ever heard talked about.
(09:57):
The first time I even heard itever heard this talked about,
was when the two of you weretalking about it on Java with
Julie.
So is it a fringe problem?
Is it a big problem?
Tell us about what maybe thestatistics are.
Dr Juli Slattery (10:11):
Yeah, you know , I would say probably 20 years
ago it was more of a fringeproblem.
You know a lot of women if theywere getting involved in
pornography, many times it wasbecause a boyfriend or a husband
introduced them to it, and youknow the percentages were more
like 15 or 20 percent of womenwho had some sort of struggle
(10:33):
with pornography.
But we're seeing in the youngergenerations, like if you look
at 40 and younger, butparticularly Gen Z, that this is
actually a normal issue,unfortunately.
So I would say like when you'relooking at adolescents and
(10:56):
young adults, you're looking atover half of women who have a
significant porn struggle.
So you know, I think FiftyShades of Grey, when that first
came out, that kind of raisedthe awareness of pornography.
Can be written, it can beerotica.
There are a lot of women whoare getting pulled into it that
way.
But now, with a few things firstof all, smartphones and devices
(11:16):
like kids are getting exposedto porn, male or female, at the
youngest of ages.
Second of all, the pornindustry has intentionally gone
after creating porn that hookswomen, and so you know people
say, well, aren't men visual andwomen are not.
You know, women can be visuallyaroused too, and they tend to
(11:38):
want more of a storylineattached to that.
But the pornography industrybrings in more money than the
NBA, major League, baseball andNFL combined annually Wow, so
you're talking about a multi,multi-billion dollar industry
that is very motivated to getconsumers hooked young, male and
(12:02):
female and so they'veaggressively gone after the
female market and the result ofboth of those things, as well as
isolation, that we seeteenagers and young adults
experiencing it's just, you know, like I feel like we have to
assume now that you do have astruggle with porn until we find
(12:25):
out you don't.
And when I was first evenstarting in practice, it was the
opposite, like you'd assumemost people weren't struggling
until you found out that theywere, but that's completely
changed.
Teresa Whiting (12:37):
Wow, and here's the thing people aren't talking
about it.
I mean especially women, andespecially Christian women.
I think there's so much shameassociated with struggling with
porn.
Can you talk a little bit aboutthe shame that kind of keeps
women silent and sucks them in?
Dr Juli Slattery (13:08):
is very often paired with masturbation, which
is another highly shameful topicthat both men and women will
say they're struggling withshame if they have a porn
struggle.
And then you add on the layerof being a Christian and knowing
at some level like I shouldn'tbe struggling with this, there
must be something wrong with me.
Like every time I look at it,god must be disappointed in me,
(13:29):
he hates me, you know.
It creates an alienation fromGod where you feel like I can't
go to him, I can't ask him foranything.
And then you add the secondlayer.
The third layer really is I'm awoman and the narrative has
been, I think, for generationsthat women aren't sexual.
They're the gatekeepers who arekind of trying to keep the guys
(13:52):
at bay.
And men are visual and men haveall this sex drive.
And so if I'm a womanstruggling with this, then
there's really something wrongwith me.
And then you add to it you know, particularly with Gen Z, all
the messaging that, like sexpositivity, porn is good, you
should enjoy it, it'll teach youabout your body, it'll teach
(14:13):
you about your sexual identity.
So, teresa, like when youcombine all that, it's just like
, it's just massive.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's just.
And then women feel like theyhave nowhere to go, like to
confess it to get help.
Teresa Whiting (14:31):
So uh, yeah, is the message.
I'm just curious.
I don't know, but is themessage in the church today like
?
Are we adopting the world'smessage of like it's okay, it's
normal to masturbate Like thisis fine.
The world's message of likeit's okay, it's normal to
masturbate, like this is fine,this is good.
This is part of developing ahealthy sexual identity.
Is that a thing?
Dr Juli Slattery (14:55):
It depends.
When you say church, I feellike there's to kind of double
down with more of a shamemessage of you know this is
wrong, this is bad, this is sin,you should stop this.
So you hear that disagreeingwith you.
(15:22):
Know, maybe masturbation,pornography is okay, but the
underlying, the tenants andthinking that underlying porn
use is even more critical todiscern, and that is that sex is
all about you.
Like sex is about your pleasure, it's about your identity, is
about figuring out who you are.
(15:43):
Like sex is a need, and ifyou're going to be a healthy
adult, you should have freedomto explore and to kind of act
out what you feel will besatisfying to you.
And so there are a lot ofchurches who adopt that
underlying message and then theysay but don't look at porn.
(16:04):
So, um, and that's where it'sreally conflicting.
So I I think that's the biggerissue is that not just have we
maybe adopted pornography, butwe've adopted a worldview that
sets us up for even sex withinChristian marriage to be all
about what I want when I want it, about, again, it being a need.
(16:28):
And you know, sexuality is avery important part of who we
are.
But having sex and getting whatyou want sexually is not a need
, and so I think the work wehave to do is to get a lot
deeper into some of the culturallies that have sort of
infiltrated our thinking.
Teresa Whiting (16:47):
What are some of those lies?
What are the lies that webelieve and how do we break free
from those lies?
Dr Juli Slattery (16:54):
Yeah, there are so many.
Like I said, I think one ofthem is that sex is a need, and
to be a whole person, you haveto have a sexual outlet, you
have to have sexual release, youhave to explore sexuality, and
that's just really not true.
We don't see that in scripture.
We see that everyone is sexualbut not everyone is having sex
(17:20):
or needs to, and so resettingthat that really comes out of a
humanistic kind of postmodernworldview, not a biblical
worldview.
I think another lie would bethat women aren't sexual.
They are, and so I think, oncewe give women permission to
(17:41):
embrace the fact that, yes,you're, by God's design, a
sexual person, and there'snothing wrong with acknowledging
that, whether you're single ormarried, but we have to learn to
steward it.
So I think that's an importantlie that we need to uncover and
then to cycle towards.
What is it to steward mysexuality, I think lies like
(18:05):
individual women will believethis like I'm forever damaged
because I've looked at porn.
I'll never be set free.
I think also, just viewing pornas a behavior struggle is a big
one.
So the problem is this behaviorI can't stop.
Instead of realizing, like, howcomplicated our struggles with
(18:29):
sex and pornography can be.
It's often tied into identity.
It can be tied into past woundsand how I deal with depression
and loneliness.
And so when somebody just tellsyou to stop the behavior
without shepherding you throughwhat is that behavior actually
serving for you and where doesGod want to enter into your
(18:51):
wounds and your struggles?
Like?
That's another thing that Ithink is important to change yes
, yes, that is so good.
Teresa Whiting (18:58):
And and to to not just look at the behavior
but to figure, figure out.
You know, what is this stemmingfrom?
And going back to those thingsand bringing healing to those
places in our lives?
Because, you're right, ourbehaviors stem from our
attitudes, our thoughts, ourbeliefs, our past trauma, our
past experiences, and so all ofthat is going to contribute to
(19:21):
that.
So, let's say, a woman stepsinto the world of porn and then
it's like it gets its hooks inher, it's like it doesn't let go
.
What are some of those thingsthat keep you stuck?
Why does this happen?
Dr Juli Slattery (19:36):
Yeah, I think there are a few things.
Number one we know a lot moreabout neurobiology than we ever
had before and theneurotransmitters that are
released when you see somethingexciting sexually are powerful.
And if you think about God'soriginal design, he wanted that
(19:57):
first exposure to a of a husbandand wife, you know, being naked
together for the first time andenjoying sex for the first time
.
He wanted it to be like ahallmark experience, not the
movie hallmark, but like acornerstone of wow I want to
keep coming back to this.
This is awesome.
But when that first exposure isto pornography, you have these
(20:20):
neural pathways that arepowerful, that begin to develop
and draw you to want to go backto that again and again, and
pornography is designed to feedyou novel sexual experiences.
So whatever you looked at twoyears ago is not likely to have
(20:41):
the same neural response today,and so pornography will feed you
something?
just a little bit more excitingor different to have the same
neural response today.
And so pornography will feedyou something just a little bit
more exciting or different,riskier, which gives you a high.
It's very much like a drug andthat reinforces that neural
pathway.
So that's the first thing, isjust what's happening in the
neurobiology of our brains.
(21:03):
The second thing is thatPornography really does work
like a drug.
So great feelings that come fromdopamine and serotonin that
produce a sense of euphoria, butalso peace.
It's short lived, but when youfeel depressed, when you feel
(21:24):
rejected, when you feel lonely,like that's a quick fix.
And now it's readily available,with our access to porn being
in every device we have.
And so you start to becomedependent on that.
Um, in a similar way that youcould become dependent on, you
know, when I feel sad, I eat Benand Jerry's ice cream.
(21:46):
Or you know like I misuse agood gift.
So and that's really the shiftof thinking like sex is a good
gift, just like ice cream can bea good gift, but when we misuse
them and we become dependentupon them is when we start an
addictive cycle that can bereally harmful.
(22:07):
And then I think also thesecrecy in pornography.
The shame it really keeps usfrom like bringing this to
communities or people that canhelp us get set free.
Teresa Whiting (22:18):
Yeah, yeah, I think that perpetuates itself.
The shame keeps you silent,which keeps you trapped, which
keeps you more silent, whichkeeps you trapped, and you just
end up in this cycle of of beingstuck.
Um and so it's, so it's.
It's so hard to be the personto go first and say I am
struggling with this, and it'shard to find a safe place to
(22:40):
even do that, you know, becauseof the shame associated with it.
One of the things you talkabout in your book is, you know
why trying harder doesn't work,and I love this quote from page
145.
You say hard work is usuallymotivated by fear, surrender is
motivated by love and gratitude,and I'd love for you to talk a
(23:04):
little bit about why tryingharder doesn't set you free.
Dr Juli Slattery (23:13):
Why trying harder doesn't set you free.
Yeah, so you know, tryingharder is sort of making these
promises to yourself and Godthat I'm never going to look at
porn again.
If I do, I'm going to makemyself like run laps or you know
, like do something to punishmyself.
It's really more of awork-based approach to things
(23:33):
and, in general, like thatself-discipline doesn't work
long-term.
The people who do find anysuccess from that, they just
move their addiction tosomething else.
So maybe they're no longerlooking at porn, to something
(23:53):
else, so maybe they're no longerlooking at porn, but they're
overeating or they're vaping oryou name it.
They've become addicted toperformance.
So the invitation that God givesus is not clean up your act,
work harder and then come to me.
He's like I know you're a messand I know that there's nothing
you can do to save yourself.
(24:15):
Bring it to me, like when youlook at pornography, I'm in the
room, I knew that you weretempted by that before you even
knew you were tempted by it.
And so the approach ofsurrender that God invites us to
is not fix yourself and tryharder.
It's admit how helpless you areand bring it to me and trust me
(24:38):
and trust that my truth cantransform you, my love can
transform you, that myforgiveness and redemption of
your life is complete and beginto walk by faith in those things
of your life is complete andbegin to walk by faith in those
things.
And when you talk to people whohave really gotten set free
from any form of addiction,including sexual addiction or
pornography, it's when they'vecome to the end of themselves
(25:02):
and they're like, okay, no morehiding, no more, I'm just going
to tell a little bit and keepthe rest a secret.
It's like I am so desperate forhelp that I'll do anything and
I'm going to bring it all to Godand trust him and to show me
what the next steps are.
Teresa Whiting (25:20):
Yes, I love how you talked about that invitation
.
You know that Jesus iscontinuously inviting people
into relationship with himself,not after they clean themselves
up, not once they get it alltogether, but he's always saying
come to me.
And he's not saying, come tochurch, come to this list of
(25:41):
rules.
He's inviting us intorelationship with himself and I
think, as we see him and we knowthat he sees us for who we are
with and he's looking at us withcompassion and steadfast love
and faithfulness.
That loosens some of thosechains that compel us to
continue in that kind of anaddiction.
(26:03):
So I love that reminder thatit's an invitation to come as we
are, as we are, and then hedoesn't leave us there Like he
then transforms us.
It's so beautiful.
I'm going to break in andinterrupt this conversation
right here, but we will continueit next week.
If you struggle with yoursexuality, here are two things I
(26:26):
would encourage you to do rightnow is order a copy of Her
Freedom Journey and order a copyof Graced.
Those two resources togetherwill help lead you into a place
of freedom.
I'll have links to them and toeverything else that we talked
about today in the show notes.
In closing, I want to leave youwith this prayer from Romans 15
(26:48):
, 13.
May the God of hope fill youwith all joy and peace in
believing, so that, by the powerof the Holy Spirit, you may
abound in hope.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!