I know Jody Allen’s story will speak deeply to many of you. Despite years of counseling and intensive treatment, her husband ultimately chose pornography over his marriage, his children, and his family. After a long and painful struggle, Jody’s marriage ended in divorce.
Without minimizing the deep pain of her journey, Jody shares the countless ways God has shown Himself faithful. In part one of our conversation, she offers heartbreaking statistics, reveals the warning signs of porn addiction, and shares two powerful mantras that helped carry her through.
She reminds us that while we may not choose our circumstances, we always have agency in how we respond. Most importantly, her journey reminds us that healing is possible, hope is real, and God's love is strong enough to meet us in every broken place.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
But I think there are two phrases that I go back to
as takeaways from that season inmy life, and one of those is I
can do hard things because I can.
We all have to do hard thingsand I had to do something hard.
And second one was that I havea choice to make, that I'm not a
victim and that all of us havechoices that we need to make.
So I think that's veryimportant to recognize that, yes
(00:23):
, this is hard, but I can do itand I have a choice.
I have a choice.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
Hi, friend, You're listening to Find Hope here.
I'm your host, Teresa Whiting.
Author, speaker, ministryleader, friend and fellow
struggler.
Leader, friend and fellowstruggler.
This is a podcast about themessy, complicated, painful
parts of life, but also thebeautiful, joy-filled hope that
(00:53):
Jesus promises.
Each week, we dig deep intoGod's Word together and talk
about how His truth impacts oureveryday lives.
I'm not going to ask you to sitwith me and have coffee,
because I seem to have my bestconversations while I'm just
doing life.
So I'd love to hang out withyou as you walk or fold laundry
or drive to work.
(01:13):
You're invited to join me inpursuing the hope God promises,
no matter where you are or whereyou've been.
I pray you always find hopehere.
Let's jump in to today's episode.
There are so many women walkingthrough a similar story as Jodi
(01:36):
Allen, whose husband struggledwith pornography addiction, and
they're walking this roadsilently and alone.
Well, today my conversationwith Jodi is going to shed some
light and pour some hope intothe hearts of those women.
Hey, friends, I am excited tointroduce you to my guest today.
(01:57):
Jodi Allen is an author,speaker and ministry leader.
She's on staff at her church,where she serves as the director
of women's ministry and firstimpressions, and she is mom to
college age twins and ageriatric black lab.
So, Jodi, thank you so much forbeing on the podcast today.
Will you tell the listeners alittle bit more about who you
(02:20):
are and what you do?
Speaker 1 (02:22):
Thank you for having me, teresa, as you said, I am on
staff at my church.
I've been there for almost well, actually a little over 11
years and when people say firstimpressions they're like what
does that even mean?
That just means I manage ourgreeters and our ushers, our
coffee people, the parking teamand things in that nature.
But yes, I am an empty nester,but my kids are graduating from
(02:44):
college in May and that meansthey are going to be launching
into the world, into their ownnew adventure.
So that's kind of exciting andsad as a mom and we train our
kids, we train our kids to dothat.
And then, while I hear they aredoing it, I'm also involved in
our local Toastmasters club, andthat really is.
It's an internationalorganization that helps you hone
(03:06):
your public speaking skills.
So I do that every Thursdaymorning at seven o'clock get up
early and head to the Y and goto Toastmasters.
Speaker 2 (03:15):
Sounds so fun.
Speaker 1 (03:17):
I love that.
And then, teresa, as you know,you and I both have a common
love, and that is the love ofpeanut butter.
Now, I don't make my own peanutbutter like you do, but I do
love peanut butter.
Speaker 2 (03:30):
Yes, yes, that's a good fun fact.
Thank you for throwing that inthere.
If you ever come to visit, Iwill be sure to have homemade
peanut butter on hand for you.
So I want to jump in because wehave so much to talk about
today and the listeners don'tknow this.
But I'm going to let them in onour little secret, that we
(03:50):
actually recorded this episodeabout three months ago and I
somehow my computer made itdisappear.
So this is take two on ourrecording and I'm so excited for
another conversation with you.
But we're here to talk aboutthe book that you wrote, which
is called Hidden Heartache, andwe're kind of turning the corner
because we've been joking a lot.
(04:11):
But this is a really serioustopic and if you could tell the
listeners the story behind that,what brought you to the place
of writing that book and whatare your hopes for it and what
are your hopes for it?
Speaker 1 (04:27):
Well, I was in a marriage for almost 20 years and
pornography had surfacedseveral times throughout our
marriage and I had we go throughthe motions of, we go to
counseling and we do all thethings, but several years ago it
surfaced really for the lasttime and I said no more.
And so Hidden Heartache reallyis.
It's partly my story of walkingthrough my husband's or now
(04:47):
ex-husband's pornographyaddiction, but it's also a
collection of practical toolsthat I just learned along the
way that painful season.
And I wrote it really forseveral reasons, and Dr Julie
Slattery, which she opened thispodcast series with you,
(05:10):
mentioned it at the very firstpodcast, where that pornography
brings in more income annuallythan NBA, major League Baseball
and NFL put together, and thatspeaks to the scope of the
pornography industry.
And so one reason I wrote itbecause the need is so great.
(05:30):
One out of every five mobilesearches is for pornography, and
so statistics like that arestaggering, and not just in the
world Teresa, but really also inthe church Covenant Eyes, which
is an internet filter.
They have done extensiveresearch on the subject of
pornography and they say that64% of Christian men view
(05:53):
pornography at least once amonth.
One out of seven pastors andone out of five youth pastors
use porn on a regular basis andsay that they are currently
struggling.
Use porn on a regular basis andsay that they are currently
struggling.
So I think the church justneeds biblically sound resources
to help men and women who aredesperate for help.
So I think that's one reasonwhy I wrote it, just because the
(06:14):
need is so great.
But another reason is, like somany women whose husband is
struggling with pornography, Ikept it hidden just in the
shadows because it's painful, itis humiliating and there is
such a stigma, as you know,teresa, when we're talking about
pornography or really anythingsexual in nature.
And so I really wrote HiddenHeartache just as an invitation,
(06:37):
just to invite women out ofshame.
The enemy uses shame to holdmen in the clutches of
pornography, but he also usesshame for their wives, and I
just wanted to invite women intothe freedom of living a
completely different way to livefree.
And the last reason that Iwrote it is God had brought God
(07:00):
brought so much healing to mylife and, honestly, I just felt
like it would be stingy not toshare that, dr Anneke?
Vandenbroek, and I wanted tojoin the collection of voices
that are already out there inthe world other authors, other
wives who have written books tohelp women in this time of
desperation.
But I also wanted to bring adifferent perspective to it,
because a lot of those booksthat the women are still married
(07:22):
, which is a huge win, of course.
But I am coming from adifferent angle because I am
divorced.
Coming from a different anglebecause I am divorced and I just
want women to know that theycan be whole, they can be happy,
even if it doesn't turn out theway that they want it to.
Speaker 2 (07:37):
Yes, oh man, so many of those reasons.
I feel like you just gave a big, huge hug to so many of the
listeners right now who arewalking through that or who have
walked through it and all thethings you mentioned, the shame
and the silence and the hidingthat comes with that kind of a
situation.
I think so many people aremaybe just taking a sigh and
(08:00):
like, wow, thank you, thank youfor talking about this, for
bringing it out in the open, andthen even what you said about
your story the end of your storyis not.
We have a restored marriage.
I mean, I've had people on thepodcast who have talked about
that and the restoration andthat is something we celebrate.
But often when the story endsin divorce, we just kind of
(08:24):
don't talk about that story.
And so I'm so glad you're here,right?
So I'm so glad you're herebecause divorce is the story of
many, many people who are inthis situation, and so I want to
kind of press into yourexperience, because I think
there's a lot of women who canrelate to what you have walked
through, and even maybe they'renot on the other side of it in
(08:46):
the way that you are of saying Ican be healed and I can be
whole and I can still live agood life, um, even though
things did not turn out the wayI wanted them to.
So I appreciate, I appreciatethat so much.
Um.
So, as you mentioned, we are ina series right now about sexual
wholeness and we've talked a bit, you know, about sexual
(09:08):
addiction with some of the otherguests that I've been talking
to.
But your story is different,because we're not talking about
your sexual addiction, we'retalking about the addiction of
your spouse, and so you'recoming at this from an angle of
how can you be sexually wholedespite what you have
(09:31):
encountered in your marriage?
You know what is, what doesthat look like for you?
But before we get there, beforewe get this, I want to ask more
questions about pornographyaddiction.
Like, what does that look like?
What are some signs?
Because there may be people inmarriages who are thinking like,
what are some signs?
(09:51):
Because there may be people inmarriages who are thinking I
think my spouse might bestruggling, but I don't know.
And when I ask him he says no,I'm fine.
So can you talk to the personwho maybe thinks there might be
some signs about what those are?
Speaker 1 (10:05):
I think that's a great question, because I think
some of these signs I did notrealize until I was on the other
end of it, and or maybe Inoticed them, but I didn't put
it all together.
And so I will say I do want togive you a list.
But I also want to say, justbecause men are experiencing, or
(10:26):
you are experiencing, thesethings with your husband, it
doesn't necessarily mean thatit's a pornography issue.
It could be a medical issue orsomething else.
So I feel like I shouldprobably say that.
But I think one sign and thiswas the case for me is just if
your husband is staying up lateafter you go to bed.
Sure, we sometimes work homewith this, or if we work from
home, it's kind of hard to havethose boundaries.
(10:48):
But I think if your husbandfrequently stays up after you go
to bed, it might mean he'sworking, or it might mean that
there's just something on hiscomputer that's luring him in.
And I know for me going to bedalone is just it's a hard way to
live.
It's a hard way to live.
So I feel like it's just healthywhen you go to bed together and
it's hard if you've got a nightout and a morning person, but I
(11:09):
think that's something toconsider.
If your husband is staying uppast you.
Also, if your husband isspending a lot of time in the
bathroom, if your husband spendsa lot of time in there with the
door closed, he could bewatching pornography.
If he's not making eye contactwhen we feel shame for various
reasons whether it's pornographyor whatever it is then we just
(11:29):
don't lock eyes with otherpeople and that could mean that
that's because we're justfeeling uncomfortable and we're
ashamed, so we don't look peoplein the eye.
And so, if you, find that yourhusband avoids eye contact, porn
could be lingering in thebackground.
I know that at one point ourneighbors said to me have you
ever noticed that your husbanddoesn't make eye contact?
Speaker 2 (11:49):
with people.
Speaker 1 (11:49):
So it wasn't just with me, it was other people,
because he was experiencing somuch shame.
Another one is just a change insex drive.
Maybe he's not interested inintimacy anymore because porn
might really be meeting hisphysical needs and it's
difficult to enjoy intimacy witha real person after you have
(12:11):
consumed so much pornography, sohe just avoids intimacy
altogether.
Or it might be on the other endof the spectrum where he has an
increased interest in intimacyin hopes of just maybe
recreating that thrill ofpornography.
And I will say this I thinkthat we don't need to feel the
pressure of feeling like we haveto compete with pornography,
(12:33):
because really we're not goingto win.
Speaker 2 (12:35):
So when it?
Speaker 1 (12:35):
comes to something like that, we just don't.
We just don't feel like we needto have to accommodate him or
compete with pornography.
Also having trouble witharousal for men when our body
receives such high pleasure frompornography, because it is like
a drug, it's like a real, live,intimate situation which then
(12:57):
makes his wife less stimulating.
So when the more pornography isconsumed, the less appealing an
encounter with his wife becomes.
So and certainly there aremedical reasons for that.
There were medications thatcould cause arousal issues, but
pornography use can be one ofthose concerns and I think
another sign of pornography useor addiction is just emotional
(13:23):
distance.
If words like disconnected ordetached or avoidance describe
your relationship, then you justmight be lacking that emotional
intimacy.
And because pornography doesn'trequire emotional intimacy,
there's no give and take, it'sjust all take.
And I feel like if you're theone that's carrying the
(13:45):
conversation most of the time,or you're asking all the
questions, or he seemsantisocial in social settings,
pornography could be the culpritnot necessarily, but it could
be.
And then another one really isjust mood swings If there's
depression or anger or lots ofdefensiveness, or he's feeling
withdrawn or irritable, thatcould be signs that pornography
(14:08):
is also lingering in thebackground.
Now it could be symptoms.
Those aren't symptoms that areexclusive to pornography.
There are legit medical issues,of course, that could be
present, and I will say ADHDreally is an often overlooked
coexisting condition withaddiction.
So just a trip to the doctormight be in order.
And so I feel like if women areexperiencing some of these
(14:29):
signs, it just might be time tostart a conversation or to maybe
start asking some questions.
Speaker 2 (14:34):
Yeah, and I will.
I do want to say that we'retalking about husbands that are
addicted to pornography, butsometimes it's wives, you know.
So if you're a man listening tothe podcast and you're saying,
well, this is not, this is notmy situation, but it's my wife,
well, it goes both ways, and Ithink the things that you
mentioned could go for men orwomen.
(14:55):
It was so interesting when DrSlattery was talking about the
increase in pornography useamong women, like just in the
last couple of decades, is thatthey have intentionally targeted
women, and so it's.
We used to talk about itstrictly as a men's issue and
now it's not.
But anyway, for the purposes oftoday's conversation, we're
(15:19):
going to go with the story andyour experience, because it is
very common for the wife to be,you know, the one that is not
using pornography and thehusband is.
So anyway, I just wanted topoint that out there, and you
know we've kind of jumped alittle bit.
You've said little pieces andparts.
Are you willing to kind of tellthe listeners the story of kind
(15:41):
of what you walked through,maybe your discovery, and kind
of the next steps after that?
Because I think sometimes whensomebody makes that discovery or
that is first a shock to them.
There's almost a paralysis of Idon't even know what to do next
(16:01):
.
So maybe you could walk througha little bit of your story and
what you would say to somebodywho might be in the initial
stages.
Speaker 1 (16:09):
Sure, as I said, pornography surfaced several
times in our marriage andfinally, the last time that it
surfaced, I think when itsurfaced at several times.
You don't know what you don'tknow.
And pornography was such ataboo thing and it still is, and
(16:30):
it wasn't really talked aboutmuch then.
And when it surfaced in mymarriage, I you know, you go to
counseling and you do all thethings and all the things that
you're supposed to do, which isgreat.
But and I assumed that thingswere happening on his end, with
his men's group and that sort ofthing, but they weren't
happening the way that I guess Ithought that they should or
would progress them to the pointwhere he is healing.
(16:52):
And so when pornographysurfaced the last time, I had to
make a choice Was I going tokeep tolerating this in my
marriage or was I going to putmy foot down and say no more?
And so I just called and saidI'm sorry you're going to have
to find so much to live becausecalled and said I'm sorry you're
going to have to find so muchto live because you're not
living here.
And that was the beginning of avery hard journey and we went
(17:16):
through a two-year process of hewent to a in-house treatment
center for three months.
We, our whole family, we've allbeen to counseling Teresa.
We could go on a very nicevacation for what we've spent on
our family just in counselingand healing.
But after two years and lots ofwater under the bridge, I just
found myself in a.
(17:37):
I felt like I was in the samesituation I was before and
unfortunately that eventuallytook us to divorce and that is
where we are today.
But I feel like finding peoplein your life to support you
through that process is reallyvery pivotal.
It's very pivotal.
Speaker 2 (17:57):
Yeah, what are some of the things that you've
learned about yourselfthroughout this process, or
about relationships as you'vewalked through this process?
Speaker 1 (18:09):
Well, I think that there are a couple of, I'd say,
life-changing things aboutmyself that I learned, and one
is that I learned I had toacknowledge and deal with my own
trauma, past and present, andtypically when something hard
surfaced in my life, I usuallydismissed it because somebody
always had it worse, which wastrue.
I mean, it's good to haveperspective, but what I learned
(18:30):
is I had to acknowledge and dealwith my own pain and to stop
minimizing my own pain.
And then I also learned that,through that process of
counseling and separation andeventually divorce, I had to
take a long look in the mirror,and I don't know that any of us
really like doing that, butsometimes the person I see in my
(18:51):
mirror is the person I want tobe, but other times it's not the
person I want to be and have todeal with that.
But sometimes the person I seein my mirror is the person I
want to be, but other times it'snot the person I want to be and
have to deal with that.
I mean, that's the continuingjourney that we are on with the
Lord and just growing inholiness and being more like Him
.
So it was working through my ownstuff, but as a parent, I
learned that I parentdifferently because of the road
(19:14):
that we walked.
And I was diligent about phones.
I was diligent about socialmedia.
My children had to read a bookon social media before I would
even let them be on social media, and it wasn't.
They didn't just read it.
We had this long discussion.
We broke it up into twosections.
It was probably two 45-minuteconversations with each one of
(19:35):
my children before they couldeven get on social media.
So maybe if we had walked adifferent road, if it had been
alcohol or if it had beenprescription drugs, I would have
parented differently based onthat.
But because it was pornography,we just parented a different
way.
And I think, on a practicallevel, our family was truly
blown away by God's faithfulnessand God showed us again and
(19:58):
again and again that he is notbroke.
He truly owns the cattle on athousand heroes.
And, like I said, we spent somuch money on a treatment center
and counseling for a wholefamily and all the things that
are necessary to heal a family,and God was beyond faithful to
us.
He was just beyond faithful.
And here's another thing that Ilearned.
It's just a practical piecethat some people give terrible
(20:21):
advice.
Some people give terribleadvice.
Speaker 2 (20:24):
Like what?
Let's hear some of the terribleadvice you received.
Speaker 1 (20:30):
Well, I had a friend who said to me and again, people
just don't know what they don'tknow.
So you know you can't be mad atthem.
But one lady said to me well,you should be more available in
the bedroom.
And I was like well, I don'tthink that's the best advice.
And then there is the wholecrowd Well, boys will be boys.
I'm like, well, no, no, boyswon't be boys, because that's
(20:51):
not what the Bible calls us to.
Speaker 2 (20:53):
Right.
Speaker 1 (20:53):
So that's pretty terrible advice.
Speaker 2 (20:55):
Yes, yes, I agree, but I agree.
Speaker 1 (20:59):
But I think there are two phrases that I go back to
as takeaways from that season inmy life, and one of those is I
can do hard things because I can.
We all have to do hard thingsand I had to do something hard.
And second one was that I havea choice to make, that I'm not a
victim and that all of us havechoices that we need to make.
So I think that's veryimportant to recognize that, yes
(21:22):
, this is hard, but I can do itand I have a choice.
I have a choice and I think thelast thing that I learned which
, honestly, is still a strugglewith me and I was at a women's
retreat not long ago and I feltlike that I finally made some
progress on this but divorce isnot a death sentence.
While it's terrible and it'shard, but you can make it
(21:46):
through, because God lovesdivorced people too, and I just
think that's important to know.
But I feel like in theChristian culture there's just
so much shame in the area ofdivorce and nobody was was
actively shaming me.
It's just my internal dialogue.
Speaker 2 (22:01):
And.
Speaker 1 (22:02):
I just, I just.
It was revolutionary for me toto understand that God loves
divorced people too.
Speaker 2 (22:09):
Thank you for saying that.
I think that that needs to besaid so.
Speaker 1 (22:14):
I appreciate that.
Speaker 2 (22:15):
What more can you tell the listeners about
pornography addiction aside fromyour personal story, like what
are some other things that youlearned about that kind of
addiction?
Speaker 1 (22:26):
Well, I'm not a doctor, but I do know that
pornography use it just rewiresthe brain and it makes it harder
to experience pleasure in reallife situations which we talked
about.
So it's not just as easy tojust stop.
It requires work, it requiressupport and it doesn't seem like
because you're not reallyingesting anything into your
(22:46):
body, you're not taking inalcohol or pills or anything of
that nature.
So it seems like it should justbe easy to stop, but
unfortunately it's not.
Pornography is just likeanother drug.
So I feel like that's sort of amisconception because most
people think you can just stopbecause it's not something
(23:07):
you're taking in your body.
But also porn addiction cancause people to neglect their
work and can cause people toneglect their responsibilities.
It just consumes all their timeand their mental energy because
they are always thinking aboutit, which makes it harder for
them to focus.
They're always thinking aboutwhen that next time I'm going to
be in front of my phone or infront of my computer, and
(23:27):
they're very distracted.
Speaker 2 (23:29):
I mean, it sounds just like a regular drug.
Speaker 1 (23:43):
I mean, that's exactly what drugs do.
You're just looking for thenext hit.
And that's what you'redescribing here, despite the
fact that they know they'regoing to be caught.
So I know that for my husbandwe had a filter on our computer
but he downloaded pictures andbrought them home and he said
when he put them on the computerhe said, well, I'm sure Jodi's
going to find this.
So when you know that you'regoing to get caught, but you
(24:09):
still do it, it's definitely anaddiction and you know.
I think another thing too,teresa, is unfortunately
pornography addiction is notrecognized as a mental health
disorder in the DSM, which isthe diagnostic manual.
Alcohol addiction and drugaddiction both are recognized,
but not pornography or sexaddiction.
And so you're probablywondering like why does it even
matter?
But without a diagnosis codefrom a diagnostic manual, then
(24:36):
insurance companies won't payfor treatment.
So until we can get the mentalhealth professionals to
acknowledge that this is anissue, that it makes getting
treatment so much harder, and soa lot of people have to pay out
of pocket for treatment thatcosts tens of thousands of
dollars out of pocket fortreatment that costs tens of
thousands of dollars.
Speaker 2 (24:59):
Hey friends, I'm going to break in right here and
interrupt this conversation,but I promise you want to come
back next week and hear the restof my conversation with Jodi
Allen when we talk aboutpractical steps that lead to
healing, and scripture passagesthat you can hold onto for
strength and hope.
Thanks for hanging out with metoday on Find Hope here.
To find anything we mentionedon the episode, go to
(25:21):
TeresaWhitingcom.
Slash listen, which is whereyou can find all the show notes
While you're waiting for parttwo of this episode.
Go to JodiAllenWritescom.
Also.
Check out her book HiddenHeartache.
I have an email that goes outevery week called my weekly
podcast update, and in thatemail you'll get links to how to
(25:43):
connect with the guests, linksto their resources and their
books.
So I highly recommend, if youhaven't signed up for that email
list, go ahead and do thattoday.
If you haven't signed up forthat email list, go ahead and do
that today.
The link to sign up is in theshow notes.
In closing, I want to leave youwith this prayer from Romans 15
, 13.
May the God of hope fill youwith all joy and peace and
(26:07):
believing, so that, by the powerof the Holy Spirit, you may
abound in hope.
But I think there are two phrases that I go back to
as takeaways from that season inmy life, and one of those is I
can do hard things because I can.
We all have to do hard thingsand I had to do something hard.
And second one was that I havea choice to make, that I'm not a
victim and that all of us havechoices that we need to make.
So I think that's veryimportant to recognize that, yes
(00:23):
, this is hard, but I can do itand I have a choice.
I have a choice.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
Hi, friend, You're listening to Find Hope here.
I'm your host, Teresa Whiting.
Author, speaker, ministryleader, friend and fellow
struggler.
Leader, friend and fellowstruggler.
This is a podcast about themessy, complicated, painful
parts of life, but also thebeautiful, joy-filled hope that
(00:53):
Jesus promises.
Each week, we dig deep intoGod's Word together and talk
about how His truth impacts oureveryday lives.
I'm not going to ask you to sitwith me and have coffee,
because I seem to have my bestconversations while I'm just
doing life.
So I'd love to hang out withyou as you walk or fold laundry
or drive to work.
(01:13):
You're invited to join me inpursuing the hope God promises,
no matter where you are or whereyou've been.
I pray you always find hopehere.
Let's jump in to today's episode.
There are so many women walkingthrough a similar story as Jodi
(01:36):
Allen, whose husband struggledwith pornography addiction, and
they're walking this roadsilently and alone.
Well, today my conversationwith Jodi is going to shed some
light and pour some hope intothe hearts of those women.
Hey, friends, I am excited tointroduce you to my guest today.
(01:57):
Jodi Allen is an author,speaker and ministry leader.
She's on staff at her church,where she serves as the director
of women's ministry and firstimpressions, and she is mom to
college age twins and ageriatric black lab.
So, Jodi, thank you so much forbeing on the podcast today.
Will you tell the listeners alittle bit more about who you
(02:20):
are and what you do?
Speaker 1 (02:22):
Thank you for having me, teresa, as you said, I am on
staff at my church.
I've been there for almost well, actually a little over 11
years and when people say firstimpressions they're like what
does that even mean?
That just means I manage ourgreeters and our ushers, our
coffee people, the parking teamand things in that nature.
But yes, I am an empty nester,but my kids are graduating from
(02:44):
college in May and that meansthey are going to be launching
into the world, into their ownnew adventure.
So that's kind of exciting andsad as a mom and we train our
kids, we train our kids to dothat.
And then, while I hear they aredoing it, I'm also involved in
our local Toastmasters club, andthat really is.
It's an internationalorganization that helps you hone
(03:06):
your public speaking skills.
So I do that every Thursdaymorning at seven o'clock get up
early and head to the Y and goto Toastmasters.
Speaker 2 (03:15):
Sounds so fun.
Speaker 1 (03:17):
I love that.
And then, teresa, as you know,you and I both have a common
love, and that is the love ofpeanut butter.
Now, I don't make my own peanutbutter like you do, but I do
love peanut butter.
Speaker 2 (03:30):
Yes, yes, that's a good fun fact.
Thank you for throwing that inthere.
If you ever come to visit, Iwill be sure to have homemade
peanut butter on hand for you.
So I want to jump in because wehave so much to talk about
today and the listeners don'tknow this.
But I'm going to let them in onour little secret, that we
(03:50):
actually recorded this episodeabout three months ago and I
somehow my computer made itdisappear.
So this is take two on ourrecording and I'm so excited for
another conversation with you.
But we're here to talk aboutthe book that you wrote, which
is called Hidden Heartache, andwe're kind of turning the corner
because we've been joking a lot.
(04:11):
But this is a really serioustopic and if you could tell the
listeners the story behind that,what brought you to the place
of writing that book and whatare your hopes for it and what
are your hopes for it?
Speaker 1 (04:27):
Well, I was in a marriage for almost 20 years and
pornography had surfacedseveral times throughout our
marriage and I had we go throughthe motions of, we go to
counseling and we do all thethings, but several years ago it
surfaced really for the lasttime and I said no more.
And so Hidden Heartache reallyis.
It's partly my story of walkingthrough my husband's or now
(04:47):
ex-husband's pornographyaddiction, but it's also a
collection of practical toolsthat I just learned along the
way that painful season.
And I wrote it really forseveral reasons, and Dr Julie
Slattery, which she opened thispodcast series with you,
(05:10):
mentioned it at the very firstpodcast, where that pornography
brings in more income annuallythan NBA, major League Baseball
and NFL put together, and thatspeaks to the scope of the
pornography industry.
And so one reason I wrote itbecause the need is so great.
(05:30):
One out of every five mobilesearches is for pornography, and
so statistics like that arestaggering, and not just in the
world Teresa, but really also inthe church Covenant Eyes, which
is an internet filter.
They have done extensiveresearch on the subject of
pornography and they say that64% of Christian men view
(05:53):
pornography at least once amonth.
One out of seven pastors andone out of five youth pastors
use porn on a regular basis andsay that they are currently
struggling.
Use porn on a regular basis andsay that they are currently
struggling.
So I think the church justneeds biblically sound resources
to help men and women who aredesperate for help.
So I think that's one reasonwhy I wrote it, just because the
(06:14):
need is so great.
But another reason is, like somany women whose husband is
struggling with pornography, Ikept it hidden just in the
shadows because it's painful, itis humiliating and there is
such a stigma, as you know,teresa, when we're talking about
pornography or really anythingsexual in nature.
And so I really wrote HiddenHeartache just as an invitation,
(06:37):
just to invite women out ofshame.
The enemy uses shame to holdmen in the clutches of
pornography, but he also usesshame for their wives, and I
just wanted to invite women intothe freedom of living a
completely different way to livefree.
And the last reason that Iwrote it is God had brought God
(07:00):
brought so much healing to mylife and, honestly, I just felt
like it would be stingy not toshare that, dr Anneke?
Vandenbroek, and I wanted tojoin the collection of voices
that are already out there inthe world other authors, other
wives who have written books tohelp women in this time of
desperation.
But I also wanted to bring adifferent perspective to it,
because a lot of those booksthat the women are still married
(07:22):
, which is a huge win, of course.
But I am coming from adifferent angle because I am
divorced.
Coming from a different anglebecause I am divorced and I just
want women to know that theycan be whole, they can be happy,
even if it doesn't turn out theway that they want it to.
Speaker 2 (07:37):
Yes, oh man, so many of those reasons.
I feel like you just gave a big, huge hug to so many of the
listeners right now who arewalking through that or who have
walked through it and all thethings you mentioned, the shame
and the silence and the hidingthat comes with that kind of a
situation.
I think so many people aremaybe just taking a sigh and
(08:00):
like, wow, thank you, thank youfor talking about this, for
bringing it out in the open, andthen even what you said about
your story the end of your storyis not.
We have a restored marriage.
I mean, I've had people on thepodcast who have talked about
that and the restoration andthat is something we celebrate.
But often when the story endsin divorce, we just kind of
(08:24):
don't talk about that story.
And so I'm so glad you're here,right?
So I'm so glad you're herebecause divorce is the story of
many, many people who are inthis situation, and so I want to
kind of press into yourexperience, because I think
there's a lot of women who canrelate to what you have walked
through, and even maybe they'renot on the other side of it in
(08:46):
the way that you are of saying Ican be healed and I can be
whole and I can still live agood life, um, even though
things did not turn out the wayI wanted them to.
So I appreciate, I appreciatethat so much.
Um.
So, as you mentioned, we are ina series right now about sexual
wholeness and we've talked a bit, you know, about sexual
(09:08):
addiction with some of the otherguests that I've been talking
to.
But your story is different,because we're not talking about
your sexual addiction, we'retalking about the addiction of
your spouse, and so you'recoming at this from an angle of
how can you be sexually wholedespite what you have
(09:31):
encountered in your marriage?
You know what is, what doesthat look like for you?
But before we get there, beforewe get this, I want to ask more
questions about pornographyaddiction.
Like, what does that look like?
What are some signs?
Because there may be people inmarriages who are thinking like,
what are some signs?
(09:51):
Because there may be people inmarriages who are thinking I
think my spouse might bestruggling, but I don't know.
And when I ask him he says no,I'm fine.
So can you talk to the personwho maybe thinks there might be
some signs about what those are?
Speaker 1 (10:05):
I think that's a great question, because I think
some of these signs I did notrealize until I was on the other
end of it, and or maybe Inoticed them, but I didn't put
it all together.
And so I will say I do want togive you a list.
But I also want to say, justbecause men are experiencing, or
(10:26):
you are experiencing, thesethings with your husband, it
doesn't necessarily mean thatit's a pornography issue.
It could be a medical issue orsomething else.
So I feel like I shouldprobably say that.
But I think one sign and thiswas the case for me is just if
your husband is staying up lateafter you go to bed.
Sure, we sometimes work homewith this, or if we work from
home, it's kind of hard to havethose boundaries.
(10:48):
But I think if your husbandfrequently stays up after you go
to bed, it might mean he'sworking, or it might mean that
there's just something on hiscomputer that's luring him in.
And I know for me going to bedalone is just it's a hard way to
live.
It's a hard way to live.
So I feel like it's just healthywhen you go to bed together and
it's hard if you've got a nightout and a morning person, but I
(11:09):
think that's something toconsider.
If your husband is staying uppast you.
Also, if your husband isspending a lot of time in the
bathroom, if your husband spendsa lot of time in there with the
door closed, he could bewatching pornography.
If he's not making eye contactwhen we feel shame for various
reasons whether it's pornographyor whatever it is then we just
(11:29):
don't lock eyes with otherpeople and that could mean that
that's because we're justfeeling uncomfortable and we're
ashamed, so we don't look peoplein the eye.
And so, if you, find that yourhusband avoids eye contact, porn
could be lingering in thebackground.
I know that at one point ourneighbors said to me have you
ever noticed that your husbanddoesn't make eye contact?
Speaker 2 (11:49):
with people.
Speaker 1 (11:49):
So it wasn't just with me, it was other people,
because he was experiencing somuch shame.
Another one is just a change insex drive.
Maybe he's not interested inintimacy anymore because porn
might really be meeting hisphysical needs and it's
difficult to enjoy intimacy witha real person after you have
(12:11):
consumed so much pornography, sohe just avoids intimacy
altogether.
Or it might be on the other endof the spectrum where he has an
increased interest in intimacyin hopes of just maybe
recreating that thrill ofpornography.
And I will say this I thinkthat we don't need to feel the
pressure of feeling like we haveto compete with pornography,
(12:33):
because really we're not goingto win.
Speaker 2 (12:35):
So when it?
Speaker 1 (12:35):
comes to something like that, we just don't.
We just don't feel like we needto have to accommodate him or
compete with pornography.
Also having trouble witharousal for men when our body
receives such high pleasure frompornography, because it is like
a drug, it's like a real, live,intimate situation which then
(12:57):
makes his wife less stimulating.
So when the more pornography isconsumed, the less appealing an
encounter with his wife becomes.
So and certainly there aremedical reasons for that.
There were medications thatcould cause arousal issues, but
pornography use can be one ofthose concerns and I think
another sign of pornography useor addiction is just emotional
(13:23):
distance.
If words like disconnected ordetached or avoidance describe
your relationship, then you justmight be lacking that emotional
intimacy.
And because pornography doesn'trequire emotional intimacy,
there's no give and take, it'sjust all take.
And I feel like if you're theone that's carrying the
(13:45):
conversation most of the time,or you're asking all the
questions, or he seemsantisocial in social settings,
pornography could be the culpritnot necessarily, but it could
be.
And then another one really isjust mood swings If there's
depression or anger or lots ofdefensiveness, or he's feeling
withdrawn or irritable, thatcould be signs that pornography
(14:08):
is also lingering in thebackground.
Now it could be symptoms.
Those aren't symptoms that areexclusive to pornography.
There are legit medical issues,of course, that could be
present, and I will say ADHDreally is an often overlooked
coexisting condition withaddiction.
So just a trip to the doctormight be in order.
And so I feel like if women areexperiencing some of these
(14:29):
signs, it just might be time tostart a conversation or to maybe
start asking some questions.
Speaker 2 (14:34):
Yeah, and I will.
I do want to say that we'retalking about husbands that are
addicted to pornography, butsometimes it's wives, you know.
So if you're a man listening tothe podcast and you're saying,
well, this is not, this is notmy situation, but it's my wife,
well, it goes both ways, and Ithink the things that you
mentioned could go for men orwomen.
(14:55):
It was so interesting when DrSlattery was talking about the
increase in pornography useamong women, like just in the
last couple of decades, is thatthey have intentionally targeted
women, and so it's.
We used to talk about itstrictly as a men's issue and
now it's not.
But anyway, for the purposes oftoday's conversation, we're
(15:19):
going to go with the story andyour experience, because it is
very common for the wife to be,you know, the one that is not
using pornography and thehusband is.
So anyway, I just wanted topoint that out there, and you
know we've kind of jumped alittle bit.
You've said little pieces andparts.
Are you willing to kind of tellthe listeners the story of kind
(15:41):
of what you walked through,maybe your discovery, and kind
of the next steps after that?
Because I think sometimes whensomebody makes that discovery or
that is first a shock to them.
There's almost a paralysis of Idon't even know what to do next
(16:01):
.
So maybe you could walk througha little bit of your story and
what you would say to somebodywho might be in the initial
stages.
Speaker 1 (16:09):
Sure, as I said, pornography surfaced several
times in our marriage andfinally, the last time that it
surfaced, I think when itsurfaced at several times.
You don't know what you don'tknow.
And pornography was such ataboo thing and it still is, and
(16:30):
it wasn't really talked aboutmuch then.
And when it surfaced in mymarriage, I you know, you go to
counseling and you do all thethings and all the things that
you're supposed to do, which isgreat.
But and I assumed that thingswere happening on his end, with
his men's group and that sort ofthing, but they weren't
happening the way that I guess Ithought that they should or
would progress them to the pointwhere he is healing.
(16:52):
And so when pornographysurfaced the last time, I had to
make a choice Was I going tokeep tolerating this in my
marriage or was I going to putmy foot down and say no more?
And so I just called and saidI'm sorry you're going to have
to find so much to live becausecalled and said I'm sorry you're
going to have to find so muchto live because you're not
living here.
And that was the beginning of avery hard journey and we went
(17:16):
through a two-year process of hewent to a in-house treatment
center for three months.
We, our whole family, we've allbeen to counseling Teresa.
We could go on a very nicevacation for what we've spent on
our family just in counselingand healing.
But after two years and lots ofwater under the bridge, I just
found myself in a.
(17:37):
I felt like I was in the samesituation I was before and
unfortunately that eventuallytook us to divorce and that is
where we are today.
But I feel like finding peoplein your life to support you
through that process is reallyvery pivotal.
It's very pivotal.
Speaker 2 (17:57):
Yeah, what are some of the things that you've
learned about yourselfthroughout this process, or
about relationships as you'vewalked through this process?
Speaker 1 (18:09):
Well, I think that there are a couple of, I'd say,
life-changing things aboutmyself that I learned, and one
is that I learned I had toacknowledge and deal with my own
trauma, past and present, andtypically when something hard
surfaced in my life, I usuallydismissed it because somebody
always had it worse, which wastrue.
I mean, it's good to haveperspective, but what I learned
(18:30):
is I had to acknowledge and dealwith my own pain and to stop
minimizing my own pain.
And then I also learned that,through that process of
counseling and separation andeventually divorce, I had to
take a long look in the mirror,and I don't know that any of us
really like doing that, butsometimes the person I see in my
(18:51):
mirror is the person I want tobe, but other times it's not the
person I want to be and have todeal with that.
But sometimes the person I seein my mirror is the person I
want to be, but other times it'snot the person I want to be and
have to deal with that.
I mean, that's the continuingjourney that we are on with the
Lord and just growing inholiness and being more like Him
.
So it was working through my ownstuff, but as a parent, I
learned that I parentdifferently because of the road
(19:14):
that we walked.
And I was diligent about phones.
I was diligent about socialmedia.
My children had to read a bookon social media before I would
even let them be on social media, and it wasn't.
They didn't just read it.
We had this long discussion.
We broke it up into twosections.
It was probably two 45-minuteconversations with each one of
(19:35):
my children before they couldeven get on social media.
So maybe if we had walked adifferent road, if it had been
alcohol or if it had beenprescription drugs, I would have
parented differently based onthat.
But because it was pornography,we just parented a different
way.
And I think, on a practicallevel, our family was truly
blown away by God's faithfulnessand God showed us again and
(19:58):
again and again that he is notbroke.
He truly owns the cattle on athousand heroes.
And, like I said, we spent somuch money on a treatment center
and counseling for a wholefamily and all the things that
are necessary to heal a family,and God was beyond faithful to
us.
He was just beyond faithful.
And here's another thing that Ilearned.
It's just a practical piecethat some people give terrible
(20:21):
advice.
Some people give terribleadvice.
Speaker 2 (20:24):
Like what?
Let's hear some of the terribleadvice you received.
Speaker 1 (20:30):
Well, I had a friend who said to me and again, people
just don't know what they don'tknow.
So you know you can't be mad atthem.
But one lady said to me well,you should be more available in
the bedroom.
And I was like well, I don'tthink that's the best advice.
And then there is the wholecrowd Well, boys will be boys.
I'm like, well, no, no, boyswon't be boys, because that's
(20:51):
not what the Bible calls us to.
Speaker 2 (20:53):
Right.
Speaker 1 (20:53):
So that's pretty terrible advice.
Speaker 2 (20:55):
Yes, yes, I agree, but I agree.
Speaker 1 (20:59):
But I think there are two phrases that I go back to
as takeaways from that season inmy life, and one of those is I
can do hard things because I can.
We all have to do hard thingsand I had to do something hard.
And second one was that I havea choice to make, that I'm not a
victim and that all of us havechoices that we need to make.
So I think that's veryimportant to recognize that, yes
(21:22):
, this is hard, but I can do itand I have a choice.
I have a choice and I think thelast thing that I learned which
, honestly, is still a strugglewith me and I was at a women's
retreat not long ago and I feltlike that I finally made some
progress on this but divorce isnot a death sentence.
While it's terrible and it'shard, but you can make it
(21:46):
through, because God lovesdivorced people too, and I just
think that's important to know.
But I feel like in theChristian culture there's just
so much shame in the area ofdivorce and nobody was was
actively shaming me.
It's just my internal dialogue.
Speaker 2 (22:01):
And.
Speaker 1 (22:02):
I just, I just.
It was revolutionary for me toto understand that God loves
divorced people too.
Speaker 2 (22:09):
Thank you for saying that.
I think that that needs to besaid so.
Speaker 1 (22:14):
I appreciate that.
Speaker 2 (22:15):
What more can you tell the listeners about
pornography addiction aside fromyour personal story, like what
are some other things that youlearned about that kind of
addiction?
Speaker 1 (22:26):
Well, I'm not a doctor, but I do know that
pornography use it just rewiresthe brain and it makes it harder
to experience pleasure in reallife situations which we talked
about.
So it's not just as easy tojust stop.
It requires work, it requiressupport and it doesn't seem like
because you're not reallyingesting anything into your
(22:46):
body, you're not taking inalcohol or pills or anything of
that nature.
So it seems like it should justbe easy to stop, but
unfortunately it's not.
Pornography is just likeanother drug.
So I feel like that's sort of amisconception because most
people think you can just stopbecause it's not something
(23:07):
you're taking in your body.
But also porn addiction cancause people to neglect their
work and can cause people toneglect their responsibilities.
It just consumes all their timeand their mental energy because
they are always thinking aboutit, which makes it harder for
them to focus.
They're always thinking aboutwhen that next time I'm going to
be in front of my phone or infront of my computer, and
(23:27):
they're very distracted.
Speaker 2 (23:29):
I mean, it sounds just like a regular drug.
Speaker 1 (23:43):
I mean, that's exactly what drugs do.
You're just looking for thenext hit.
And that's what you'redescribing here, despite the
fact that they know they'regoing to be caught.
So I know that for my husbandwe had a filter on our computer
but he downloaded pictures andbrought them home and he said
when he put them on the computerhe said, well, I'm sure Jodi's
going to find this.
So when you know that you'regoing to get caught, but you
(24:09):
still do it, it's definitely anaddiction and you know.
I think another thing too,teresa, is unfortunately
pornography addiction is notrecognized as a mental health
disorder in the DSM, which isthe diagnostic manual.
Alcohol addiction and drugaddiction both are recognized,
but not pornography or sexaddiction.
And so you're probablywondering like why does it even
matter?
But without a diagnosis codefrom a diagnostic manual, then
(24:36):
insurance companies won't payfor treatment.
So until we can get the mentalhealth professionals to
acknowledge that this is anissue, that it makes getting
treatment so much harder, and soa lot of people have to pay out
of pocket for treatment thatcosts tens of thousands of
dollars out of pocket fortreatment that costs tens of
thousands of dollars.
Speaker 2 (24:59):
Hey friends, I'm going to break in right here and
interrupt this conversation,but I promise you want to come
back next week and hear the restof my conversation with Jodi
Allen when we talk aboutpractical steps that lead to
healing, and scripture passagesthat you can hold onto for
strength and hope.
Thanks for hanging out with metoday on Find Hope here.
To find anything we mentionedon the episode, go to
(25:21):
TeresaWhitingcom.
Slash listen, which is whereyou can find all the show notes
While you're waiting for parttwo of this episode.
Go to JodiAllenWritescom.
Also.
Check out her book HiddenHeartache.
I have an email that goes outevery week called my weekly
podcast update, and in thatemail you'll get links to how to
(25:43):
connect with the guests, linksto their resources and their
books.
So I highly recommend, if youhaven't signed up for that email
list, go ahead and do thattoday.
If you haven't signed up forthat email list, go ahead and do
that today.
The link to sign up is in theshow notes.
In closing, I want to leave youwith this prayer from Romans 15
, 13.
May the God of hope fill youwith all joy and peace and
(26:07):
believing, so that, by the powerof the Holy Spirit, you may
abound in hope.
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