April 10, 2024 • 11 mins
HR consultant Ricky Baez joins Pete Newsome again on Finding Career Zen, but this time, he's in for a bit of a challenge. Pete is on a mission to shift his stance on cover letters, and by the end of their chat, you might be rethinking their relevance too! They get into the nitty-gritty of employment gaps, frequent job changes, and early career dilemmas, proving your resume alone can't tell the whole story.
You're in for a debate that's anything but dry as Ricky and Pete fight over the purpose and potential of cover letters in securing your dream job. This episode will give you some insights that could completely change your approach to getting hired. Be sure to tune in for a conversation full of laughs and the kind of career advice you can't afford to miss!
Additional Resources:
- How to Write a Cover Letter
- Common Cover Letter Mistakes and How to Avoid Them
- Are Cover Letters Necessary?
🧠WANT TO LEARN MORE? Be sure to subscribe and check out https://zengig.com/
👋 FOLLOW PETE NEWSOME ONLINE:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/petenewsome/
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@PeteNewsome
👋 FOLLOW RICKY BAEZ ONLINE:
Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/efrainrickybaez/
Blog Articles: https://www.baezco.com/baezco-blog
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Pete Newsome (00:00):
You're listening to the Finding Career
Ricky Baez (00:01):
Zen podcast.
Pete Newsome (00:02):
Today we are talking about cover letters, and
I brought back Ricky Baez, whois not a fan of cover letters,
because today is the day.
Ricky, I'm going to convinceyou that sometimes they come in
really handy.
Are you ready for that?
Place your bets, folks Go ahead, let's see what happens.
So, ricky, you're an HRconsultant.
This is what you do.
You live in this world.
You have for a long time, andin recent discussions we're on
(00:27):
record where I am a fan of coverletters.
I think there is a place forthem, even in today's modern
marketplace, even in our digitalworld.
But you think well, I don'twant to put words in your mouth.
What do you think about coverletters?
Ricky Baez (00:38):
I think they're a waste of time.
I don't pay attention to themat all.
Now again, this is just me,from my experience.
I rather get straight to thepoint to see what the person has
to offer.
Pete Newsome (00:49):
So to me, yeah, Spoken like someone who's been
in recruiting.
Because you want to get, youjust want the facts, baby, right
, you want to get right to thepoint.
We don't have time to readcover letters and hear someone's
life story, and I generallyagree with you.
But there's exceptions to everyrule life story and I generally
agree with you, but there'sexceptions to every rule, and
it's those exceptions I want totalk about today and I believe
(01:10):
that I can change your mind.
So if you're up for it, I'mgoing to do my best.
I'm up for it, let's do this.
So let's think about it fromtwo perspectives.
One is situational and then oneis how the cover letter gets
presented or delivered.
So let's start with thesituation Now.
We all want to be that candidatewhose resume is beautiful.
It looks just like the jobdescription, there are no
(01:30):
blemishes, there's no questionmarks on it, it is pristine.
But reality at times isdifferent.
There's gaps that are onresumes, sometimes through no
fault of the candidates.
Maybe they were out saving theworld on a mission, right?
It doesn't mean they weresitting at home not working or
in prison, right?
(01:50):
Maybe they were out doingsomething really good and there
was a reason it was necessary tohave that employment gap.
Or another example could bethat if you had a lot of jobs,
now many modern employees, youngemployees all say don't think
that job hopping is a lot ofjobs.
Now many modern employees,young employees I'll say don't
think that job hopping is a badidea.
But as someone who's done a lotof hiring, what do you think
(02:12):
about that?
Ricky Baez (02:12):
You know somebody, somebody who's trying to make
sure that you find the bestperson for the position that's
going to be there for a while.
Job hopping is really going toraise a red flag for certain
recruiters.
Pete Newsome (02:23):
And let's just call it for what it is.
If an employee has a history ofjob hopping as someone who's
considering hiring that employee, we naturally assume that they
won't stay at our job very longeither.
That's right, and no matterwhat people who are in the
situation of the employee thinkabout it, we know that that's
real and it will not be lookedat favorably.
But there's also, like we said,a lot of good reasons where
(02:46):
that could happen.
If you were in Silicon Valleyand your company, you happen to
work for a string of companiesthat went out of business
despite you accomplishing greatthings during your time there.
That can happen through nofault of your own, and we know
that to be true.
Right.
And there's a third example thatI'll give, and this is why it's
on my mind right now.
It came up yesterday.
I was speaking with someone whowas relatively new in their
(03:07):
career and they acknowledgedthat their resume the words and
phrases, job titles, thedescriptions of the work they've
done doesn't and qualified todo a lot of different jobs, and
they want to be able to telltheir story, they want to state
(03:28):
their case, and in each of thesescenarios, you can't tell that
story through the resume.
You can't You're right, you knowthe gap is just a gap, right?
The multiple jobs in a shorttimeframe are just multiple jobs
and the keywords on the resumeand the background that doesn't
exactly match up with the jobdescription is going to be
(03:51):
nearly impossible for arecruiter to put those pieces of
the puzzle together.
Ricky Baez (03:55):
So, so, so let me ask you because I think a good
recruiter could put those piecestogether, pete because if I was
looking at that, if I'mimpressed so far with what I see
, and then I see a gap, I'm like, wait, let me call this guy,
let me call this girl.
Hey, why do you have?
Let's talk, come on in, explainthat gap.
Now, if I'm not impressed withthe technical aspect, with the
(04:16):
experience this person has,regardless whether they have a
gap or not, I'm not calling them.
So to me, if the resume iswritten in such a way that it
captures my attention and then Isee that gap, that's more than
a sentence for me to pick upthat phone.
Pete Newsome (04:31):
Well, you'd be in the minority of recruiters who
do that.
We know that recruiters arelooking for the ideal candidate,
and so let me challenge thatstatement.
If you have to fill oneposition and you're a recruiter
and you want to be as efficientas possible with your time and
how, the time of the hiringmanager is going to be spent and
you have 200 candidates to lookthrough and one of them who has
(04:56):
a giant gap in the resume, andyou're 10 resumes in.
You've already found a couplethat look pretty good and you
have 190 left to go Are youreally making the phone call to
the one?
Ricky Baez (05:05):
No touche, I am not, I am not.
Yeah, yeah, I'm with you there.
Pete Newsome (05:10):
The point being is the market is driven by supply
and demand.
So if you have the basketballskills of of Caitlin Clark, then
you can afford to have a gap onyour resume, right?
If you're the Caitlin Clark ofof of job.
Ricky Baez (05:23):
She hasn't worked in 20 years, but did you see her
play last week?
Pete Newsome (05:28):
But if you're just an average candidate, or one
that's who is less than stellar,you probably can't afford to
have a big, glaring red flaglike that.
So we acknowledge that it's ared flag.
Sometimes, there may becircumstances that allow you to
get away with it, but playingthe odds, I think more often
than not it's going to excludeyou from consideration or at
least potentially exclude you.
(05:49):
I get that, I get it.
So that's where the coverletter comes in play.
To me, it gives the candidate achance to tell their story in a
way that the resume cannot.
As a candidate, it's tough outthere, right?
I mean, it is tough going andyou have to be able to state
your case.
Now, when you get to anin-person interview, you get to
a phone screen.
(06:09):
You have that opportunity, andthat's really the purpose of a
resume.
For me, it's to get you in thedoor.
It's the cover to the book and,like any book, if the recruiter
doesn't like what they see onthe cover, they're going to move
on, and the cover letter isthat opportunity to tell your
story and to present yourselfthe way you want it to be told.
Ricky Baez (06:30):
And so I'm with you.
I'm with you.
I think, where we are, pete, is.
You're saying it adds value,I'm not saying it takes away
value.
Where I'm operating from isbecause, look, I've been there
right Back in the day when Ithought I needed a cover letter.
I spend almost more time on thecover letter than my resume.
(06:51):
To whom?
Pete Newsome (06:52):
it may concern.
Ricky Baez (06:56):
Well, to whom it may concern and I threw a little
funny in there right To let themknow what kind of an HR person
I am, especially in HR thatwe're seen as the stick to the
mud, right, and I do.
You know I do HR very, verydifferently than what the common
folks does.
I think from my perspective,since I don't pay attention to
it, doesn't hurt you, but Idon't wish you time on it if
(07:18):
nobody's looking at it.
But I do know other recruitersare looking at it, especially
for what you said to explainsome things that otherwise it
will fall into the no pilebecause the recruiter very
quickly decides it's not aresume to look at.
So I get that piece.
Pete Newsome (07:34):
So I haven't sold you yet.
You're not there, but you'rewarming up to the concept.
Ricky Baez (07:37):
I'm warming up.
I'm warming up.
I'm at the appetizer.
Pete Newsome (07:40):
So I'm satisfied enough right now if you're just
at the point where you say, yep,there are some times that
resumes don't tell the storythat needs to be told and the
candidate's going to lose out ifthey don't have an opportunity
to tell it.
Is that fair?
Ricky Baez (07:53):
That's fair because that's exactly what you said
earlier.
Right, it explains the gaps itexplains.
So, if you have a resume, soI'm, I'm, I'm gonna go back to
something I said earlier If youhave a resume that may not stand
good on its own and you feellike you need that cover letter,
then yeah, absolutely throwthat personality in there.
So can I, can I give a tip?
Just don't make it dry, don'tmake it as dry as the resume.
(08:16):
So I'm going to go give it apersonality.
Pete Newsome (08:19):
So that's where I want to go to this next step,
right?
So I said we were going to talkabout situation, then we're
going to talk about deliverymethod.
Traditional cover letters areboring, to your point.
They're multiple paragraphs.
They tell someone's life story.
Nobody wants to read them.
We've acknowledged that and Iagree with you 100% that the
recruiter does not want to spendany more time than necessary on
(08:39):
a single candidate or a singleresume.
They are powering through.
So here's my recommendation whenyou need to use a cover letter
because you know your resume isnot going to stand on its own, I
think you should use one.
But I don't think you shouldwrite a novel.
I don't think you should writea traditional letter.
I think you should deliver yourcover letter.
(09:00):
Let's call it your cover story.
Let's change the way we look atthese things.
Your cover story can bedelivered in an email, in the
body of an email, not in anotherattachment, right?
Because, to your point, nobodywants to open a second
attachment if the resume isalready there.
It can be delivered via aLinkedIn message to the hiring
(09:20):
manager.
Right?
I sent my application andresume to position XYZ and
here's why I believe that I'mthe perfect fit for the for the
role and why you should want tohire me.
Right, state your case, butdon't state it in a formal cover
letter.
And then the other way you candeliver it is through the plain
(09:41):
old US mail.
Now, that sounds like it's goingbackwards and to be traditional
, but now we're talking aboutshifting the odds in your favor
and doing what other candidateswon't do.
So you can write your coverletter in a handwritten note.
It can be on a note card, right?
I sent my application.
Here's my resume, whatever itis, and here are three reasons
(10:02):
why I believe I'm unique fromother candidates.
State your case.
So, ricky, I don't want younecessarily.
Even I'll be satisfied if youdon't buy into cover letters,
but it's the cover story thatgoes with the resume that I
think can make all thedifference in the world to a
candidate resume that I thinkcould make all the difference in
the world to a candidate.
Ricky Baez (10:25):
So hold on, I'm genuinely sold, seriously, as
soon as you said, mail it.
We're treating a cover letterlike a thank you note.
That's a whole different story.
That changes the game, right,because that's different.
If I wow this person, okay, I'mgoing to put this on my
checking out pile.
Right Now you have another pileto be checked off from.
But if some, if an adminassistant says, hey, this thing
came for you, what is that?
People caught on a letter.
It was me.
Pete Newsome (10:44):
There's no pile there's no pile, right, there's
no pile.
Ricky Baez (10:48):
I like that.
I okay, I'm sold there.
If if it wasn't for that, wewould have ended the same.
You know what we're gonna haveto do.
Pete Newsome (10:55):
A part two well, you threatened me with a cage
match earlier, so I'm glad toknow that it's not leading to
physical violence.
Ricky Baez (11:02):
I'm in it for the purse because I know I'm going
to lose and I'm going to getpaid anyway.
Pete Newsome (11:05):
So all right.
So, in conclusion, then,there's certain situations where
, if you're a candidate, youneed your story told in a way
that your resume cannot do.
We need to send that extramessage along with it.
So let's not call it a coverletter.
We'll call it a cover story anddeliver it in a way that other
(11:25):
candidates won't do, and thatwill make you show yourself as a
unique candidate that you are.
Ricky Baez (11:31):
I'm sold that I like .
I really like that.
Show your trailer.
Pete Newsome (11:35):
show the trailer for your movie there you go, and
if it's good trailer, it'susually a good movie.
All right, everyone, thanks forlistening.
Movie, there you go, and ifit's a good trailer, it's
usually a good movie.
All right, everyone, thanks forlistening.
Happy hunting out there, ricky.
Thank you, as always.
Ricky Baez (11:44):
Have a good one, guys.
You're listening to the Finding Career
Ricky Baez (00:01):
Zen podcast.
Pete Newsome (00:02):
Today we are talking about cover letters, and
I brought back Ricky Baez, whois not a fan of cover letters,
because today is the day.
Ricky, I'm going to convinceyou that sometimes they come in
really handy.
Are you ready for that?
Place your bets, folks Go ahead, let's see what happens.
So, ricky, you're an HRconsultant.
This is what you do.
You live in this world.
You have for a long time, andin recent discussions we're on
(00:27):
record where I am a fan of coverletters.
I think there is a place forthem, even in today's modern
marketplace, even in our digitalworld.
But you think well, I don'twant to put words in your mouth.
What do you think about coverletters?
Ricky Baez (00:38):
I think they're a waste of time.
I don't pay attention to themat all.
Now again, this is just me,from my experience.
I rather get straight to thepoint to see what the person has
to offer.
Pete Newsome (00:49):
So to me, yeah, Spoken like someone who's been
in recruiting.
Because you want to get, youjust want the facts, baby, right
, you want to get right to thepoint.
We don't have time to readcover letters and hear someone's
life story, and I generallyagree with you.
But there's exceptions to everyrule life story and I generally
agree with you, but there'sexceptions to every rule, and
it's those exceptions I want totalk about today and I believe
(01:10):
that I can change your mind.
So if you're up for it, I'mgoing to do my best.
I'm up for it, let's do this.
So let's think about it fromtwo perspectives.
One is situational and then oneis how the cover letter gets
presented or delivered.
So let's start with thesituation Now.
We all want to be that candidatewhose resume is beautiful.
It looks just like the jobdescription, there are no
(01:30):
blemishes, there's no questionmarks on it, it is pristine.
But reality at times isdifferent.
There's gaps that are onresumes, sometimes through no
fault of the candidates.
Maybe they were out saving theworld on a mission, right?
It doesn't mean they weresitting at home not working or
in prison, right?
(01:50):
Maybe they were out doingsomething really good and there
was a reason it was necessary tohave that employment gap.
Or another example could bethat if you had a lot of jobs,
now many modern employees, youngemployees all say don't think
that job hopping is a lot ofjobs.
Now many modern employees,young employees I'll say don't
think that job hopping is a badidea.
But as someone who's done a lotof hiring, what do you think
(02:12):
about that?
Ricky Baez (02:12):
You know somebody, somebody who's trying to make
sure that you find the bestperson for the position that's
going to be there for a while.
Job hopping is really going toraise a red flag for certain
recruiters.
Pete Newsome (02:23):
And let's just call it for what it is.
If an employee has a history ofjob hopping as someone who's
considering hiring that employee, we naturally assume that they
won't stay at our job very longeither.
That's right, and no matterwhat people who are in the
situation of the employee thinkabout it, we know that that's
real and it will not be lookedat favorably.
But there's also, like we said,a lot of good reasons where
(02:46):
that could happen.
If you were in Silicon Valleyand your company, you happen to
work for a string of companiesthat went out of business
despite you accomplishing greatthings during your time there.
That can happen through nofault of your own, and we know
that to be true.
Right.
And there's a third example thatI'll give, and this is why it's
on my mind right now.
It came up yesterday.
I was speaking with someone whowas relatively new in their
(03:07):
career and they acknowledgedthat their resume the words and
phrases, job titles, thedescriptions of the work they've
done doesn't and qualified todo a lot of different jobs, and
they want to be able to telltheir story, they want to state
(03:28):
their case, and in each of thesescenarios, you can't tell that
story through the resume.
You can't You're right, you knowthe gap is just a gap, right?
The multiple jobs in a shorttimeframe are just multiple jobs
and the keywords on the resumeand the background that doesn't
exactly match up with the jobdescription is going to be
(03:51):
nearly impossible for arecruiter to put those pieces of
the puzzle together.
Ricky Baez (03:55):
So, so, so let me ask you because I think a good
recruiter could put those piecestogether, pete because if I was
looking at that, if I'mimpressed so far with what I see
, and then I see a gap, I'm like, wait, let me call this guy,
let me call this girl.
Hey, why do you have?
Let's talk, come on in, explainthat gap.
Now, if I'm not impressed withthe technical aspect, with the
(04:16):
experience this person has,regardless whether they have a
gap or not, I'm not calling them.
So to me, if the resume iswritten in such a way that it
captures my attention and then Isee that gap, that's more than
a sentence for me to pick upthat phone.
Pete Newsome (04:31):
Well, you'd be in the minority of recruiters who
do that.
We know that recruiters arelooking for the ideal candidate,
and so let me challenge thatstatement.
If you have to fill oneposition and you're a recruiter
and you want to be as efficientas possible with your time and
how, the time of the hiringmanager is going to be spent and
you have 200 candidates to lookthrough and one of them who has
(04:56):
a giant gap in the resume, andyou're 10 resumes in.
You've already found a couplethat look pretty good and you
have 190 left to go Are youreally making the phone call to
the one?
Ricky Baez (05:05):
No touche, I am not, I am not.
Yeah, yeah, I'm with you there.
Pete Newsome (05:10):
The point being is the market is driven by supply
and demand.
So if you have the basketballskills of of Caitlin Clark, then
you can afford to have a gap onyour resume, right?
If you're the Caitlin Clark ofof of job.
Ricky Baez (05:23):
She hasn't worked in 20 years, but did you see her
play last week?
Pete Newsome (05:28):
But if you're just an average candidate, or one
that's who is less than stellar,you probably can't afford to
have a big, glaring red flaglike that.
So we acknowledge that it's ared flag.
Sometimes, there may becircumstances that allow you to
get away with it, but playingthe odds, I think more often
than not it's going to excludeyou from consideration or at
least potentially exclude you.
(05:49):
I get that, I get it.
So that's where the coverletter comes in play.
To me, it gives the candidate achance to tell their story in a
way that the resume cannot.
As a candidate, it's tough outthere, right?
I mean, it is tough going andyou have to be able to state
your case.
Now, when you get to anin-person interview, you get to
a phone screen.
(06:09):
You have that opportunity, andthat's really the purpose of a
resume.
For me, it's to get you in thedoor.
It's the cover to the book and,like any book, if the recruiter
doesn't like what they see onthe cover, they're going to move
on, and the cover letter isthat opportunity to tell your
story and to present yourselfthe way you want it to be told.
Ricky Baez (06:30):
And so I'm with you.
I'm with you.
I think, where we are, pete, is.
You're saying it adds value,I'm not saying it takes away
value.
Where I'm operating from isbecause, look, I've been there
right Back in the day when Ithought I needed a cover letter.
I spend almost more time on thecover letter than my resume.
(06:51):
To whom?
Pete Newsome (06:52):
it may concern.
Ricky Baez (06:56):
Well, to whom it may concern and I threw a little
funny in there right To let themknow what kind of an HR person
I am, especially in HR thatwe're seen as the stick to the
mud, right, and I do.
You know I do HR very, verydifferently than what the common
folks does.
I think from my perspective,since I don't pay attention to
it, doesn't hurt you, but Idon't wish you time on it if
(07:18):
nobody's looking at it.
But I do know other recruitersare looking at it, especially
for what you said to explainsome things that otherwise it
will fall into the no pilebecause the recruiter very
quickly decides it's not aresume to look at.
So I get that piece.
Pete Newsome (07:34):
So I haven't sold you yet.
You're not there, but you'rewarming up to the concept.
Ricky Baez (07:37):
I'm warming up.
I'm warming up.
I'm at the appetizer.
Pete Newsome (07:40):
So I'm satisfied enough right now if you're just
at the point where you say, yep,there are some times that
resumes don't tell the storythat needs to be told and the
candidate's going to lose out ifthey don't have an opportunity
to tell it.
Is that fair?
Ricky Baez (07:53):
That's fair because that's exactly what you said
earlier.
Right, it explains the gaps itexplains.
So, if you have a resume, soI'm, I'm, I'm gonna go back to
something I said earlier If youhave a resume that may not stand
good on its own and you feellike you need that cover letter,
then yeah, absolutely throwthat personality in there.
So can I, can I give a tip?
Just don't make it dry, don'tmake it as dry as the resume.
(08:16):
So I'm going to go give it apersonality.
Pete Newsome (08:19):
So that's where I want to go to this next step,
right?
So I said we were going to talkabout situation, then we're
going to talk about deliverymethod.
Traditional cover letters areboring, to your point.
They're multiple paragraphs.
They tell someone's life story.
Nobody wants to read them.
We've acknowledged that and Iagree with you 100% that the
recruiter does not want to spendany more time than necessary on
(08:39):
a single candidate or a singleresume.
They are powering through.
So here's my recommendation whenyou need to use a cover letter
because you know your resume isnot going to stand on its own, I
think you should use one.
But I don't think you shouldwrite a novel.
I don't think you should writea traditional letter.
I think you should deliver yourcover letter.
(09:00):
Let's call it your cover story.
Let's change the way we look atthese things.
Your cover story can bedelivered in an email, in the
body of an email, not in anotherattachment, right?
Because, to your point, nobodywants to open a second
attachment if the resume isalready there.
It can be delivered via aLinkedIn message to the hiring
(09:20):
manager.
Right?
I sent my application andresume to position XYZ and
here's why I believe that I'mthe perfect fit for the for the
role and why you should want tohire me.
Right, state your case, butdon't state it in a formal cover
letter.
And then the other way you candeliver it is through the plain
(09:41):
old US mail.
Now, that sounds like it's goingbackwards and to be traditional
, but now we're talking aboutshifting the odds in your favor
and doing what other candidateswon't do.
So you can write your coverletter in a handwritten note.
It can be on a note card, right?
I sent my application.
Here's my resume, whatever itis, and here are three reasons
(10:02):
why I believe I'm unique fromother candidates.
State your case.
So, ricky, I don't want younecessarily.
Even I'll be satisfied if youdon't buy into cover letters,
but it's the cover story thatgoes with the resume that I
think can make all thedifference in the world to a
candidate resume that I thinkcould make all the difference in
the world to a candidate.
Ricky Baez (10:25):
So hold on, I'm genuinely sold, seriously, as
soon as you said, mail it.
We're treating a cover letterlike a thank you note.
That's a whole different story.
That changes the game, right,because that's different.
If I wow this person, okay, I'mgoing to put this on my
checking out pile.
Right Now you have another pileto be checked off from.
But if some, if an adminassistant says, hey, this thing
came for you, what is that?
People caught on a letter.
It was me.
Pete Newsome (10:44):
There's no pile there's no pile, right, there's
no pile.
Ricky Baez (10:48):
I like that.
I okay, I'm sold there.
If if it wasn't for that, wewould have ended the same.
You know what we're gonna haveto do.
Pete Newsome (10:55):
A part two well, you threatened me with a cage
match earlier, so I'm glad toknow that it's not leading to
physical violence.
Ricky Baez (11:02):
I'm in it for the purse because I know I'm going
to lose and I'm going to getpaid anyway.
Pete Newsome (11:05):
So all right.
So, in conclusion, then,there's certain situations where
, if you're a candidate, youneed your story told in a way
that your resume cannot do.
We need to send that extramessage along with it.
So let's not call it a coverletter.
We'll call it a cover story anddeliver it in a way that other
(11:25):
candidates won't do, and thatwill make you show yourself as a
unique candidate that you are.
Ricky Baez (11:31):
I'm sold that I like .
I really like that.
Show your trailer.
Pete Newsome (11:35):
show the trailer for your movie there you go, and
if it's good trailer, it'susually a good movie.
All right, everyone, thanks forlistening.
Movie, there you go, and ifit's a good trailer, it's
usually a good movie.
All right, everyone, thanks forlistening.
Happy hunting out there, ricky.
Thank you, as always.
Ricky Baez (11:44):
Have a good one, guys.
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